Today in The Journal News
-
- November
- 13
Jorge Posada talked with the Mets then agreed to a deal with the Yankees.
David Wright says he was told he’s playing third base for the Mets next season. John Delcos has that story.
——————
My pal Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports ranks every free agent. Pedro Feliz anybody? How about Mike Lamb?
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on Tuesday, November 13th, 2007 at 3:57 am by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
No Feliz or Lamb. Betemit is a better and can hold his own with the glove.
I wouldn’t sign Lowell he isn’t worth 4 years. Sign Andruw Jones and trade for a 3B.
wow pete. r u still up? some of us have to work 3rd shift, but u r one dedicated man.
e-roc is up as well. it never ceases to amaze me how many people r up at this hour. probably 3rd shifters like myself.
The only reason why I’m up is because I live in Turkey (at least until this March).
dude, pretty cool living in Turkey. it is not so bad working at this hour. less distractions and more time to surf the web and hit the blog.
BTW, the yanks are not out of the arod “icon” sweepstakes just yet. i said it earlier. lowell not signing could potentially lead to arod signing w/ boston. boras has to love the fact that boston has yet to consummate that deal. it keeps a large market team in the mix (w/ the yanks of course, b/c you cannot discount the possiblity that the boss himself will step in to the negotiations if he even senses boston closing in on the icon). business is business. the guy over at yankees republic summarized it quite nicely. other than the icon, the yanks had no pop from the right side.
Yeah, true. It’s been awhile since I’ve worked a midshift.
Well, the Yanks did offer him arbitration, even if it’s for the picks. If A-Rod comes back to the Yanks, he would have to take a pay cut. IMO though, he’s not coming back. He never met with manage to even listen their offer or check their interest. Management was the last to know of A-Rod’s intentions. A-Rod notified them via voicemail. Well, actually it was Boras who left the message. That’s not how you conduct business.
Hey! some of us are just early risers ( sorry. . . ). I respect Posada’s TOD w/the Yankees. I sincerely hope he finds a way on the field & pitcher prep, to justify a 4 year deal for a catcher @ age 36. Next stop: Mo.
So, as of this moment, the NYY are locking into old player status again. Though I hope Molina, no kid himself, is back. If it wasn’t for Melky & Cano, the avg, age of Yankee starting position players would be 35. Betemit is a super-sub, the Braves & Dodgers would never have let a genuine f/t player go.
Other than that, I am awake. . ..
X-TRA!! X-TRA!!
SEE ALL ABOUT IT !!
Posada Dailing For Dollars !!
http://tinyurl.com/2lo4pd
Paypa Mistha ?? It’s hot-off da Press ??
Nice Work Dr. A!!!!
Nice to see something good in thw morning.
One down one to go this week….then we sign Molina to backup Jorge for the next 2 yrs!!!
I like Mike Lamb alot…and if they did sign him for 3B,and then A-Fraud excepted arbitration,then he play 1B as well.
No way to Mike Lowell,save that money for relief pitching,which is always a concern.
Doc Acula :
I suggest not signing Lowell until he’s been administered a thorough Rorschach test.
I hope they don’t sign Lowell.
No wonder we’ve all been such nervous wrecks. There are 30 teams in MLB, but we had 4 in the top 10 free agents.
Great news about Jorge!
I know the fourth year is dicey, but by then we wont have all the dead weight we have now, and will be able to get him DH time.
Also, he’s my favorite Yank for purely irrational fan reasons.
Please, NO to Mike Lowell.
Again, from a purely Yankee fan perspective, do we really need the Red Sox’ WS MVP on our roster?
NO!
No Lowell get Cabrera unless it costs Cano. Cano seems like he might be better than Cabrera down the road except for maybe power. Kaz Mat is on free agent list. Would he move to third? Maybe move Cano and put Kaz at second. He doesn’t have power but he hits for average and is real speedy. Oh, and he’s a pretty good fielder.
Whether this works out or not, kudos to the new management for stepping up on the 4th year and got this done.
scratch that Kaz Mat -looked up his career stats and I was dead wrong sorry.
You can tell Jorge has been dying to sign and is giddy to be back. He said he was excited about his first free agency but it just seems like he was anxious to come back, with his 90% talk at MSG sunday night (nice poker face:-), and having lunch with wife and Cashman. Another guy might try to make the yanks sweat a bit longer and get a bidding war going first but Jorge just couldn’t do it. Makes me like him even more if that’s possible.
Ok, 4 years for Posada.
Please don’t give 4 years to Lowell.. Stay away from him Yankees!
There was a little blurb in the Dailynews that the Yankees are close to a deal with Jose. Very good news if true. he can catch 30-40 games give Jorge games off at dh. He is our best back up since Joe G.
link, Jen?
I knew it would get done. He actually cares about his Yankee legacy unlike an unnamed person. I think he will be out there one day in momument park. Is one of the Yankees great catchers.
Looks like Cashman’s spring gamble failed. I love Posada, but a very unlikely 4th year in March became mandatory in the fall after his monster season. Cashman wanted to see how an older catcher would perform and now he has Jorge at age 40.
“He actually cares about his Yankee legacy unlike an unnamed person.”
So that’s why he held us over the coals for a 4th year.
Cheddar-
I’d say it was worth the risk though. I mean he played the odds on a 35 y/o catcher. He figured Posada would have a solid season, but I don’t think he expected what he got from him.
4 years is a lot, but I’m glad to have him on board.
Sigh. Andy’s the top SP free agent.
It was nice to see that big red “Signed” stamped next to Jorge’s name.
The Mets had no shot at Jorge. His heart was here all along.
Good to have him back in the fold.
“Please, God” to Andy. “Yes” to Molina. Getting impatient with Mo. Indifferent on Lowell. Wouldn’t mind giving Wilson a spin at 3rd.
“I think somebody would be foolish to say they have no interest in Santana,” he said, “But it depends. It depends on what they’re looking for.”
How is what Hank Steinbrother said not tampering? I thought you weren’t allowed to discuss players who were under contract with another team?
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/11/13/2007-11-13_jorge_posada_agrees_to_deal_mariano_rive.html
I dont have an issue with Lowell at third, should cashman go that route. i think there are other creative options that should be explored first. however, considering we dont really have a 3B option in-house for the immediate future, a Cano shift aside, lowell at 4 years at that $$ isnt an issue for me.
Pete did the Yankees try to do a vesting option with Jorge?
Mel,
I’d rather give Andy Phillips a shot than Betemit. Betemit has the potential to hit some homeruns, but he also strikes out an awful lot. I like Andy’s defense better. Of course, this is all if there is nothing else on the horizon. I guess Andy and Betemit could platoon, but there’s already a platoon set up at first, no? It’s probably not a good idea to platoon both corner infield positions.
I think Jorge’s loyalty was to the 52.4 mil he got…....I t is always about the money, If the Yanks didnt throw in the 4th year Jorge would have benn a Met by Friday….
It really is too bad that AROD and the Yankee screwed this whole thing up. Yanks would be looking great for 08 if AROD didnt opt out. I do blame the Yanks some though, there was no need for them to come on all strong with their “If he opts out he is gone”........Yanks need ARod and it would be a lot easier to trade for Santana if we actually had a 3rd baseman that wont cost us prospects
Doreen – He also strikes out on three pitches.
nud- I don’t believe that is the case. He was just trying to use the Mets to get the extra year and it worked. I don’t think he ever had any intention of signing with the Mets.
Question: Why would the Pirates be talking about trading Freddie Sanchez? And also, it looks like he switched from 3B to 2B last season, although he’s played 2B, SS and 3B, was there a reason for that? And IF the Yankees worked out a trade for him, would it be for 3B? I just don’t understand why he’d be available. He’s a bright spot on a dismal team.
Ben-
I tihnk you’re thinking about discussing contracts with a Free Agent before the Free-Agent period begins..
But Santana isn’t a free agent. I’m pretty sure anybody can discuss or give opinions about trades or give their feelings about players..
Jennifer – Yeah. At first Betemit seemed amped, I guess, and he was doing a great job. I don’t know if it was a loss of regular playing time, or just settling into his normal abilities, but after that first few weeks, he was really a disappointment.
I’m just skimming thru the free agents. Wow walk about a crappy free agent class.
Has Mike Lamb’s name been thrown around as a possible third baseman? We were going to go into 2004 with him as our starting 3rd baseman.
How did the Yankees screw it up with Arod? Do you understand the difference from the Yankees perspective between Arod opting out and not opting out?
Its more than just the 30 million dollar subsidy they got from Texas. Its also the increased luxury tax money that would be due with a larger Arod deal.
As Jayson Stark pointed out last week, the increase would be over 200 million dollars (counting luxury taxes due) from the Yankees side over the course of Arod’s contract. That’s based on what Boras told the Yankees how much it would take to re-sign him.
That’s insane for one player.
The Yankees wanted to meet with him and offer a new deal prior to him opting out. He declined. End of story.
That’s not the Yankees “screwing up”. That’s Arod deciding he no longer wanted to play in NY. Its his right and he exercised it.
As far it being “easier” to get Santana with Arod in the fold, that’s not true. Its harder because of the dollars committed to Arod. There’s no room, dollars-wise for Santana if Arod is still with the team.
The Yankees aren’t going to have a 300 million dollar payroll. If you start adding the numbers, you would see that’s where it would be heading with both Arod and Santana on the team.
Let’s look at the starting lineup with Arod and Santana on the team:
1B: Giambi 22 million
2B: Cano 5 million after arbitration this year.
SS: Jeter 20 million
3B: Arod 35 million
C: Posada 13.1 million
LF: Matsui 13 million
CF: Melky 400K
RF: Abreu 16 million
DH: Damon 13 million
SP: Santana 25 million
For 10 players, the grand total is: 152.5 million. You want to add in Mariano (probably another 14-15 million) and you are pushing 170 million dollars for 11 players. You still have to pay 14 more players to fill out your roster.
Insanity because all you are doing is funding your competitors with the luxury tax money you are paying out each year.
That’s why its not prudent for them to bring Arod back now that he opted out and why BOTH Arod and Santana on the Yankees would never, ever happen.
Doreen –
Freddy Sanchez moved to 2nd base to make room when the Pirates got Jose Bautista. If the Yankees get Sanchez his versatility would be great for the infield. At times he could give rest to Jeter and Cano while Betemit fills in at 3rd base. A good luxury to have.
stop talking dollars…..the Yankees BURN money!!! They will gove 46 mil to a crap pitcher on a dime….I’m so sick of hearing about trying to penny pinch with a 250 mil payroll..The Yankee payroll has been gross for a long time so I basically have gone the other way…..I say spend and spend more….it’s not like I can get into the ballpark anymore for less then a $100-, so they might as well spend 300 mil on AROD if it still is gonna cost me 8 buck for a hot dog..
Yanks did not “screw up” with Arod. There’s a long list of well-documented reasons of why we shouldn’t be chasing Arod after he opted out and the way he opted out. But bottomline is, this is a team sport. Going after Arod under the circumstance dictated by Boras requires the Yanks not to function as a team.
Anybody know anything about this Hiroki Kuroda?
http://www.rotowire.com/roto_to_gnews.htm?ID=240342&sport=mlb
Hes on that Passan list as one of the better pitchers on the market this time around.
and when Santana is making his 25 mil a year…....Giambi, Abreu and the Moose will be off the books and the following year DAmon and Matsui’s 13 mil a year are history…....AROD WILL be a Yank by Jan 15th
Book it!!!!!!!!!!!
you read Jason Stark?? get a life….......his stuff is drivel…..read Buster Olney if ya want some insight…
Jennifer, the only thing about Mike Lamb is he is another lefty batter. Other than that, he’s probably fine.
I note that Jeff Passan just rated Bobby Bonds as the number 4 free agent of the 144 people available this year.
And the “experts” here don’t want him. HA! HA!
good point SJ44 you will win more championships with a Santana type than an Arod, also your math is wrong it’s 162 not 152
Good post SJ44 and very factual. To tie up the kind of $$$ that A-Rod wants puts too many eggs in one basket and handcuffs the team in critical other areas of need regardless of the money coming off the books once Giambi, Mussina, and Farnsworth are gone. In the overall scheme of things the team is better balanced minus A-Rod. In Joe Girardi’s style of managing, the entire roster gets a chance at contribution opposed to Torre waiting for the big inning pinning his hopes on A-Rod’s (sometime) long ball.
After all the dust has settled, Cashman will provide Girardi with a more fundamentally sound team to work with.
Yes that’s right we don’t want high priced ballplayers that feel thier accomplishments on the field are worth more than the teams. keep Bonds not worth it HA HA HA
One, down two to go. whew!
SJ44, please, the Jason Stark stuff is wrong. Its creative accounting and nothing more. Its about turning things on its side in order to make it seem like more than it actually is.
How does 21 million, which is all the Yankees were going to get from Texas, turn into 200 million (a figure that seems to keep growing, last week it as 100 million). It can’t.
It amounts to 30 million because of the tax that gets put on top of it. You can’t have it costing more than that because it isn’t there. Stark is probably a politician, they are very creative with accounting as well. I’ve run this by CPAs I know, every single one of them laughs at this. Except those who worked for Enron. They might still be working had they been this creative.
You post shows that you are simply one of those A-Rod haters who are going to go to any length to “justify” how its a better club with out him.
Where is the contract that states A-Rod is making 35 million? Its all speculation.
How does Santana get 25 million just because of coming to the Yankees? He gets paid that now? Wow, how do the Twins afford that?
After next year there will be other money dropped from the payroll, but adding in absurd amounts that are not based in reality just make your argument look weaker.
Normally you have good posts, but this stuff with A-Rod and the payroll are one area where you are so far off base even the MLB umpires couldn’t blow this call.
If the Yankees, or any team, trades for Johan, its widely agreed that he’ll be signed to an extention to make the deal work. With the market being set last season by Barry Zito, its not out of the realm of possibilty to think that Johan could sign for a contract upwards of $20-25 million per year.
Mark,
Thanks for the info on Sanchez. He would certainly be a great “get” – I just don’t know why a team would willingly part with him. I thought the Pirates were going to try and do a turn around, and it seems to me, if you’re really interested in that, you keep a guy like Sanchez. But, I don’t think the Pirates have had a clear game plan for a few years now, so, I guess anything is possible. But what I’ve been reading suggests Sanchez for prospects? Is that correct?
After 08, Giambi – gone, Abreu – gone, Matsui – gone, Mussina – gone. But just ignore that as well, after all, it doesn’t fit into the creative accounting either.
say what you want about theo but he does not let sympathy affect his decisions and we will see if they give Lowell 4 yrs.. 4 yrs. for a 33 yr old 3b who looked washed up a year ago is a dangerous move.
Truth for Freedom-
Dont forget Pavano.
Regarding A-Rod, there was no need for everybody and their brother to public announce time after time that if A-Rod opted out his career as a Yank would be over. Why did Hank, Hal and Cash have to publicly state that? They sort of negotiated through the press and now we have a black hole at 3rd.
This isn’t true at all. Most speculations are that Johan will not sign an extention, as that would limit his earnings potentials. He will be 29 going on 30 when he hits the FA market, why would he sign an extention for 2 years or so, when his value as a pitcher will be going downward?
Fans say they would want him to sign an extention, but conventional wisdom says there is no way he will do it. There are going to be a number of good pitchers in his class of FA. That generally helps the bids to get high as teams look to get the big signings. Santana will be the top of that class unless he gets injured. No way would he pass that up.
good post Truth for Freedom, I completely agree with you..Yanks will NOT SIGN Mike Lamb!!!! Hell no!! and Lowell will go back to Boston for 4 yrs..the Yanks will flirt and raise his price but the Sox are the best fit for Lowell and Yankee stadium would hurt his numbers and production..he will get 4 for 52-56 and he deserves it!!
Dee, couldn’t say it any better myself.Arod ’s coming back to the Yankees will be a sure bet for team dynamics being strained,he’s tarnished now.
When reliable players like Pasada and Mariano watch the money the Yankees were willing to throw at Pay Fraud, they both needed to play hardball with the Yankees,both have the Bling Bling to prove their value,something *Show me the money(Arod)couldn’t do with any team he’s ever been on.
I didn’t realize that
Too bad, maybe they do it anyway?
I’m hardly an Arod hater. If you think so, you haven’t read this blog too much.
Yes, money comes off the books in 2008. Which means, they will spend it elsewhere. Like at first base, right field, starting pitching, etc.
You also have guys like Cano and Wang who will be lined up for paydays.
Whatever money comes off the books gets made up in other salaries as needs are filled in other areas.
If you don’t think Johan Santana will command over 20 million (probably closer to 25) in his next contract, you aren’t following what’s going on in the game.
Arod is not going to be a Yankee next season. You can book that.
One last thing. The price of beer, hot dogs and tickets have ZERO to do with player salaries. It has to do with supply and demand.
If the Yankees can get those prices from the public, they will seek it, player salaries be damned.
Don’t fall into the silly talk radio drivel that player salaries determine the prices you pay at the stadium. That’s nonsense. It has nothing to do with it.
If it did, everytime a team lowers payroll (like the Marlins, for example) prices across the board would also be lowered. That’s not happening.
The Marlins and Devil Rays actually RAISED ticket and concession prices last year, even though their payrolls were lowered.
If the Yankees had a 60 million dollar payroll they would charge those prices as long as the public was willing to pay for it.
Where salary does matter is in regard to the luxury tax. That directly determines how the Yankees competitors can keep their organizations flowing.
So, when you see a team like Tampa being able to sign Carl Crawford early in his career to wipe out a free agent year or two, thank the Yankees. Their luxury tax payments help teams like Tampa keep guys like Crawford.
Barry Zito got an 8 year deal from the Giants. He arm, due to his style of pitching, has more wear and tear than Santana’s.
Santana is a fastball, changeup pitcher, with an occasional slider. His arm is fresher than just about any power pitcher in the game.
He will command a huge deal. More than 5 years and probably around 7-8. He’s not taking less money and years than Barry Zito. Not going to happen.
If he is traded to a large market team, that team will more than likely sign him to an extension or he won’t be traded.
No large market team is dumb enough to trade quality young talent for a one year rental.
If we could combine Feliz’s glove with Lamb’s mitt, we would be okay. Unfortunately, Lamb sucks as a defensive third baseman and Feliz has a sub .300 OBP (but is still looking for a 3 year deal).
Here’s a hypothetical, though. What if Johan has a dollar amount and contract term in mind and a team comes along now who will meet those numbers in an extension? Then wouldn’t going on the FA market just be an ego trip? If those numbers (Santana’s numbers) are met now, why wait the year, pitching for a team you’re no longer happy with? Because if he doesn’t give the trading team an extension, no team will do a trade for him now. So he will be pitching for a team he no longer wants to be with.
His numbers were a little down (arguably) in 2007, and some have said that could have had something to do with his unhappiness with the way Minnesota was conducting its business. What will happen in 2008, if he’s still there, and the Twins have lost Tori Hunter?
There is always a chance to get a reasonable contract extension with Johan, just as long as he’s not represented by Boras.
As for the 3rd base question, it is tricky. Lowell is a good play, an old Yankee farmhand. Maybe we can play on that fact and get him to agree to only 3 years for more money per. Like say 3 year $42M. You know he can hit in Fenway, which is important being that the Red Sox are the best team in the division right now. Plus taking a player away from Boston is always helpful, although the A Rod to Boston speculation would be just what Boras needs.
Doreen –
The Freddy Sanchez rumors are the best proposals at this point. It solves 2 glaring needs for the Yankees with Sanchez at 3rd and a very needed lefthander in the bullpen with Damaso Marte.
The Pirates are unlikely to hold Cashman hostage by wanting Joba, Phil, or Ian. They could settle for 2nd tier pitching like Karstens, DeSalvo, Clippard and/or Ohlendorf to get a deal done.
Mark –
The deal sounds too good to be true. Why are the Pirates undervaluing Sanchez?
Freddy Sanchez doesn’t hit for enough power to fit our need at 3B. He also doesn’t walk a lot, so if his BA ever falls below .300 (very possible) he’ll be a below average player.
Mark –
He’s compared to Mauer and Cano. I think Cano is worth more than second-tier pitching as is Mauer. That’s why I ask the question.
I would tend to believe that the Pirates arent undervaluing Sanchez, just yankees fans speculating on what it might cost the yankees, hoping it’s not expensive or that the pirates wont pay attention to the theft that will will occur.
i would think you can prob get the two players without giving up any of the big three, but the second tier guys you give have got to be with upside. you might even be talking about a Melky/Horne/another ‘B’ pitcher type trade.
“With the market being set last season by Barry Zito…”
Another humanitarian contribution by Scott Boras.
Sorry … I just posted this in the last thread thinking it was this one, but I Added a little so it’s only mostly a re-post. Yes yes yes I agree that makes me a moron sorry. Anyways,
I’m thinking to sign Lowell could be a good idea. Hitting in the Sox lineup and in their park probably helped him but as Latham Joe said, he could adapt his hitting style. Adding his defense here (even if his bat turns out just ‘adeqate’) would come at the cost of no prospects lost via trade. Adding Cabrera’s or Tejada’s bat would. Crede might or might not be injury prone. Going 4 years for Lowell maybe OK w/o overpaying per year.
I think if A-Rod ends up in Boston it may have already been discussed if not agreed to anyways, and it may also have something to do with why Boston hasn’t given Lowell the offer he really wants. So signing Lowell could also prevent them from having A-Rod AND Lowell on the left side of the infield.
If A-Rod’s not already pre-ordained to go to Boston, they may be more inclined to extend Manny (being Manny) when his contract’s up. Then if they don’t, their only moster bat for ‘09 would be Ortiz.
And their 3B options would then be what our other options are now. Cabrera or Tejada at cost of other players, or Crede who may or may not be injury prone. Or the others out there, who either wouldn’t or couldn’t be much better than Lowell anyways.
I’d once again like to say ‘Don’t sign Lowell!’
Just want to keep that out there.
“He’s compared to Mauer and Cano. I think Cano is worth more than second-tier pitching as is Mauer. That’s why I ask the question.”
He’s not compared to Mauer or Cano. Mauer plays a far more challenging defensive position and Cano has far more power.
Doreen,
Hi. Yes, I know that Wilson struck out a lot. But so did Cano, so I have faith that Kevin Long can do his magic with Betemit.
Andy’s a name I haven’t heard brought up at 3B. Has he played 3rd? If so, I would rather try him there than Cano.
Neither of the 3 are “ideal”, but I say give it a try rather than give up top prospects. If you could trade Melky for someone serviceable at 3B, do you go for that? Melky was once untouchable, but he’s been pushed down the list a bit. I heard that Johnny Damon used to play center field.
B –
On Baseball Reference.com, Sanchez is compared with both those players (Cano and Mauer) as a batter. In their explanation comparison points they do make allowances for position among other things.
Accounting figures just like stats can be slanted and manipulated to prove one’s argument…..The cost to re-sign A-Rod now would be out of sight…Maybe not to the degree that Starks illustrated, but even if it’s 50 % of those numbers it is significant….I much rather devote earmark that money for Santana….Question, what would you be willing to spend or trade for Pedro back in 1998 ??? Well in Santana you have the equivilent of a 1998 Pedro….As SJ44 pointed out, his pitch selection as well as his mechanics are less prone to arm injuries…..If you have a choice, I go with the solid & dominate start every five days…..I just believe in pitching over power….Everyone likes the long ( chicks included ) but pitching wins Championships…..Old School I guess…..Although I grew up with the Mantle-Maris Yanks…..They did have power pitching as well…..
Mel –
Andy Phillips did play some third base. He kind of played all over the infield this season.
You’re right about Cano striking out a lot. Maybe if they commit to Wilson, Long will be able to work some magic. I’d rather not have to trade prospects, especially pitchers, for a 3B guy.
Melky, Melky, Melky. I’m torn. I love what he brings to the ballpark. But I’m not convinced he’ll ever be much better than he is now. I like what he is now, but he needs to be able to not wear down in September and beyond. IF they include Melky in a package that is mindblowingly beneficial to the team, then, I think they have to go for it.
The Betemit or Phillips thing, though, means they don’t do anything until spring training.
go after:
David Riske
Scott Linebrink
Maybe resign vizcaino if he accepts 2yr/9M
Doreen,
After the ‘05 season, Cashmoney told anyone who cared that Bubba was the Yankee centerfielder.
Do you think he has more confidence in Betemit or Bubba?
In regards to Betemit, we also have to remember we have a new manager (psyched!) who’s good at developing young players (Betemit is 26) whereas Torre didn’t have patience for that kind of thing. Regardless of what the roster looks like, I’d like to see how Girardi develops Betemit and Duncan at the major league level.
Am I the only one that thinks restocking our bullpen right now is way, way more important than trading for Santana?
Mel,
I didn’t realize Betemit was that young!
(I never sipped the Bubba Crosby kool-aid
)
Rebecca,
That’s kind of contingent on what Mo does. Did the Viz give a statement about maybe wanting to play for Torre?
Who do we have now? Veras and Ohlendorf?
Not sure if I’m late to the party, but the Times says the offer to Mo is 3/45. INSANE.
Peter :
With all the souces availabale to you, is it possible to post what A-Rod’s numbers were in 4 years with the Yankees in terms of games winning hits, home runs or otherwise ? Also his production with runners on base. Many thanks…
Mel—completely agree on the Bubba comment—I’ve said the same thing. I don’t know how this will work out, but at least Betemit is there so the Yankees have options.
Rebecca—IF we don’t have Andy, we aren’t going into next season without acquiring a solid starting pitcher, regardless of whether that is Santana or someone else. I agree that the bullpen is a priority as well, but Cashman is not going to go into a season with Wang, Mussina and 3 rookies with innings limits as the rotation.
I don’t get the arguement of Freddy Sanchez doesn’t hit for power, just his numbers w/ RISP and his situational skills add his versatility on the inf, who wouldn’t want him at 3B ?
he’s not going to the # 4 or 5 hitter, but a great #8, 9, 1 or 2 option.
RISP 2007 .344 AVG/.379 OBP/.530 SLG
RISP 2 OUTS 2007 .310 AVG/.385 OBP/.569 SLG
Baseloaded 2007 .400 AVG
an ideal stop gap 3B w/ some upside
Rebecca-
Nope I’ve brought that up too.
But, there really isn’t anybody out there, if you look at the Free Agent class..
Is it worth it to trade for BP help?
Or give the kids a chance?
Doreen,
Hard to believe, huh? Of course he’s from the Dominican Republic so he may have lied on his birth certificate. j/k.
I think it’s because he’s “bigger” than your average ballplayer. Also, doesn’t he look like Edgar Renteria? So it seems like Betemit’s been around forever.
Glad to see Posada staying. I see Molina being retained as well. Anyone else think Posada will get some games at Third Base?
A-Rod wants to play Short Stop again. Will Reyes move to Second Base for the second time?
“good point SJ44 you will win more championships with a Santana type than an Arod”
i must have missed all those titles the Twins have been winning.
oh wait, they don’t score enough runs.
of course Santana would help the yankees in the playoffs. probably even more than a great hitter. he would be an incredible addition, no doubt.
but i hate when people make absolute statements like this.
i mean, just today on this blog, people have suggested that the Yankees will be better off hitting LESS HRs next year b/c it will allow them to put together longer innings…ok. i’m pretty sure the HR is best possible outcome in any situation. but i guess people really believe that A-Rod killed a bunch of rallies by selfishly hitting all those HRs.
Santana is more important than re-stocking the bullpen.
Good bullpens are often the product of luck more than design.
Look at the Red Sox. They had no idea what they had in Okijima and Delcarmen really came on strongt.
Even at the mid-way point of the season, they didn’t believe those guys were for real which is why they traded for Gagne.
Its tough to put forth a ton of money into your bullpen. Except of course, for the closer.
Most middle guys are failed starters or closers who have been up and down. Not the kind of guys you commit big money to because their performances often change from year to year. Its why you are seeing teams (like the Indians for example) going with young, hard throwing arms. They work cheap and you can put your money into other areas of your team. Like starting pitching or (in the Indians case) re-signing some of their younger players to buy out some arbitration/free agent years.
If the Yankees can acquire Santana without giving up Chamberlain, they have to do it. Its the only player in the market I would give up Hughes to acquire.
The Yankees have a lot of young RH arms like Hughes. They have nobody like Santana.
You put him in the rotation and get Pettitte to come back for one more year and you have a very, very good team. Even with the hole at third base.
Its about pitching. If the Yankees can trot out Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Chamberlain and Kennedy/Moose, every fifth day, they don’t need to score 968 runs to win games.
“Well in Santana you have the equivilent of a 1998 Pedro”
absolutely not. not even close.
OK, Peter, why would we waste money on an overrated 3B in Pedro Feliz who, trust me as I’ve seen him play in SF dozens of times, really does truly suck. He offers very little to any team and only received attention in SF because when Barry was hurt, he was the next biggest power threat.
Mike Lamb? I don’t know, if you’re looking for defense, I am not as opposed to this, but is he REALLY any better than Betemit might be? Why spend money externally for someone that isn’t necessarily any kind of upgrade when you have an internal option? Makes no sense.
Yankee Fan in Boston,
I’m the only one who thinks that Cashmoney was hedging when he traded for Betemit. He trades away a good bullpen guy, got rid of a good utility guy in Cairo, and brings in Betemit. People here said that’s because Cairo was rubbish. Uhh, I don’t think so.
Of course you have better 3B options out there, I’m just saying that at this point we do actually have a 3B. So yeah, priority wise it’d be closer, starting pitcher, bullpen, 3B. Not necessarily in that particular order.
Bullpen Status:
-Veras
-Ohlendorf
-Farnsworth
SJ44,
I really do not understand why you are so concerned with the payroll. The Yankees payroll is massive and it will continue to be for sometime. Salarys are only going to continue to go up; do you expect the Yankees payroll to go down? Thats absurd. If the Yankees could figure out a way to bring Arod back, that would in no way limit their abilities to go after Johan.
I also agree that Starks numbers are way off. Here is where his number 200 million came from: He took the yankees speculated extension offer, somewhere around 5 years 150 million, added that to Arods existing contract and then added the luxery tax. That number comes in somewhere around 320-340 million. Then he took the speculated rumor that Boras demanded 350 million dollars base from the Yankees and added the 21 million they would lose from Texas and then added the luxery tax. That number is around 520 million. So he took the difference and…presto!!! He has a 200 million dollar difference that will make readers like you think, “Wow thats a big difference, Yankees would be crazy to chase that”, and they would be. But the only problem with that is the 21 million they lost with texas still only equates to just that…21 million and nothing more.
I don’t know Hmmm, he’s awfully close.
Maybe not in raw numbers but in how he can dominate games.
I have seen him absolutely shut down teams, like Pedro did when he was younger.
Last year? I think he got disgusted with the organization and the fact they didn’t hit a lick. It made him try to pitch too perfect and he fell into some bad counts, which hurt him more than in the past.
The guy truly is a great pitcher, is still under 30, and is healthy. That’s rare in today’s game.
Its why I think the Yankees are saving their major trade bullets to make a run at Santana.
I think they feel they will put together an everyday lineup that scores runs. Maybe not as they have in recent years but, certainly enough to win games.
Even with the younger arms in the organization, the only guy who approaches Santana in stuff and guile is Chamberlain and he has yet to throw an inning as a starter at the ML level.
To me, Santana is the guy you go after if at all possible.
“I’m the only one who thinks that Cashmoney was hedging when he traded for Betemit. ”
no, i absolutely agree that the Betemit trade with one eye on the A-Rod situation.
that doesn’t mean Betemit will get the job.
but it keeps the yankees from being caught with their pants down. the COULD play Betemit if they had to and probably get league average production.
if the Yankees did not have Betemit, an FA 3Bman or team looking to trade with the Yankees would have them over a barrell.
also, can we please stop pretending that Andy Phillips is a major league starting player?
SJ44,
Well spoken. I agree on Hughes for Santana, but did you hear about the Twins wanting Cano if they decided to trade Santana? I am not sure about parting with Hughes AND Cano. That is a TOUGH call.
On the bullpen, I also agree. I think we have a lot of young arms that could be fashioned for the bullpen this year. All indications point towards the return of Rivera, so you have your closer, just have to fill in the holes. Personally, I like the idea of IPK or Moose in long relief. Maybe IPK because he is younger and more durable. Throw in Ohlendorf for the 7th, and see where Humberto Sanchez gets in his rehab as a possible mid-season 8th inning guy. Who does that leave?
At this point, I make a huge effort to swap Farnsworth for Tejada…surely the Yankees would have to throw in something else. Maybe resign Luis Vizcaino for the sake of veteran presence. Then maybe go out on the market for one guy, seriously entertain going after Francisco Cordero as the 8th inning cat.
Santana is the closest thing to what Pedro was but in comparison not even in Pedro’s league at the prime time of his career
“RISP 2007 .344 AVG/.379 OBP/.530 SLG
RISP 2 OUTS 2007 .310 AVG/.385 OBP/.569 SLG
Baseloaded 2007 .400 AVG
an ideal stop gap 3B w/ some upside”
RISP 2007 – 151 AB
RISP 2 OUTS 2007 – 58 AB
Bases Loaded 2007 – 10 AB
SMALL SAMPLE SIZE ALERT
I’m concerned about the payroll because I am sick of the Yankees funding their competitors. I am sure they are also sick of doing the same.
I am also sick of the waste that goes into the payroll. Guys like Mussina, Giambi and Pavano and Clemens to a lesser degree and that’s over 58 million dollars of waste. Money that ends up going to their opponents, making them more competitive.
So, in essence, you have 4 guys who make minimal (if any contributions) to the team, taking up almost 30% of your payroll. Not a good way to run things.
There is no way they would want to carry both Arod and Santana for those reasons. If they did, they would have caved when Boras told them what it would take to sign Arod.
The Yankees have said publicly they have no intention of negotiating with Boras for Arod during the FA period. They can’t be anymore clearer than he is not in their plans.
Its why I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting some change of heart. Especially if they acquire Santana.
I’m not a Tejada fan. I’d take a shot at Scott Rolen before Tejada. Same amount of money but, Rolen is a much better defensive player and much better guy in the clubhouse.
Tejada brings too much baggage and that’s even before the Mitchell Report stuff.
I’d be more into Betemit if he lost the 25 pounds the Yankees want him to lose. His future with the Yankees may depend on it.
No question, Cashman was hedging his bets obtaining Betemit. I just wish he would get in better shape. It would make him a helluva lot of money in the long run because he has talent.
B, he won a batting title for god sakes
You really want to try and trade for the right to pay Scott Rolen’s corpse $12 million?
“I am also sick of the waste that goes into the payroll. Guys like Mussina, Giambi and Pavano and Clemens to a lesser degree and that’s over 58 million dollars of waste.”
Well lets see, Mike Mussina has been fantastic for the Yankees and certainly worth the money every year except for last year. Jason Giambi was a machine when the Yankees signed him. He hit to all fields, for avg, for power, high OBP, always killed the Yankees in Yankee Stadium. So im sure back in 2001 when they signed him you were the only person in the world saying that was it was a waste of money. Carl Pavano was also a very heavily pursued free agent and also was seen as a good signing for 10 million a year. But once again im sure you could have predicted his injuries over the course of his time with the Yankees. If your talking about Roger Clemens contract this year, well yes that was a waste of money, so 1 out of 4 aint bad. It is very easy to look back in time and pass judgements when you already know the end result.
“I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting some change of heart.”
So why are you holding your breath and hoping the Yankees are going to stop entering big long-term contracts with big time players (of which Arod is the biggest)? But then again you did say earlier in the year that you knew Boras and Arod personally so who am I to talk right? Your the big shot with friends in high places
“B, he won a batting title for god sakes”
And his batting average dropped 40 points the next year. He’s the type of hitter that has to hit .300+ to have any value and he’s turning 30 so I’m not sure he’ll do that consistently in the future. He also doesn’t hit for power. He’s not an ideal 3B candidate.
Betemit projects to be a 30 homer guy…He does need to drop lbs. no doubt…He looks much heavier than he did when he first arrived to LA…...As for Santana and my comparison to Pedro, you may want to take a closer look at the numbers at their respective ages…..Plus pitching as a lefty in Yankee Stadium makes one just wonder how much better he’d be rather than pitching in the Homerdome…..Two Cy Youngs and counting..Granted there’s no Clemens to compete with for that award, but he’s the best in the game….And he’s only 27…...You have to make every effort to obtain his services….He’s that good…
“I don’t know Hmmm, he’s awfully close.
Maybe not in raw numbers but in how he can dominate games.
I have seen him absolutely shut down teams, like Pedro did when he was younger.”
yes. Santana is great. and i want him on the Yankees if possible.
my point was less about Santana than about Pedro.
Pedro Martinez from 1997-2003 may be the greatest pitcher of all time. Santana is not really close.
5 best seasons by ERA+ (min 150 IPs)
Johan: 182, 161, 155, 148, 130
Pedro: 291, 243, 219, 210, 202
not even close.
Johan’s 2007 was more like Pedro in 2004. still very good, but not historically great. in fact, Pedro’s 2004 was almost the exact same season as Johan’s 2007:
Pedro/Johan
IP – 217/219
H – 193/183
K – 227/235
B – 61/52
HR – 26/33
i would love to have Johan, but there are warning signs.
Signing Mussina originally was a good move. Signing him to to a new 2 year contract was foolish. Should have been one year and an option, to save what exactly is happening….he’s a shell of his former self.
Giambi? The only team that offered him 8 years was the Yankees. They bid against themselves. As it turns out, he only gave them about 4 1/2 productive years. This year, he’s an absolute anchor on the team, both playing and contractually. Not a good contract.
I am not saying no more long term contracts. I am saying you have to be smart about it and not bid against yourself in the process.
It seems to me that’s the direction they are going in.
They will always have a high payroll. However, you would like it not to contain 30+% of it in dead money. That’s not good business, even for the Yankees.
“As for Santana and my comparison to Pedro, you may want to take a closer look at the numbers at their respective ages”
i have, trust me, there is no comparison.
“As it turns out, he only gave them about 4 1/2 productive years. This year, he’s an absolute anchor on the team, both playing and contractually. Not a good contract.”
You know what i find funny, in 2013 SJ could easily be right back here saying this same exact sentence about Johan Santana, when just 5 years ago he was eager and for the Yankees signing him to a 8 year deal. Why cant Johan decline just as fast as Giambi? There is going to be risks with every contract in baseball, so I still dont see how you could possibly call the Giambi contract horrible at the time of the signing. Was he not the best hitter in baseball?
Well, there is this little thing called steroids that contributed to Giambi’s sharp decline.
Its not like the Yankees didn’t know what they were getting into with Giambi. Rumors of his steroid use weren’t exactly secrets when he was a free agent.
Comparing the declines between Giambi and Santana isn’t really accurate because one guy was put together via chemistry and the other guy has had no whispers or accusations of being anything but a naturally gifted athlete.
He also won his first Gold Glove this year and has been outstanding defensively in his career.
No question, every contract has risks. However, you make educated guesses as to the type of risk you want to inherit.
Comparing Giambi and Santana, its pretty easy to assume the risk with Santana is a better bet than was Giambi at the time he signed.
All you have to do is look at Giambi’s rookie baseball card. Its rarely a natural thing when a guy gains 80 in 4 years.
Giambi still hit after the steroid thing broke. I doubt Steinbrenner could have predicted the foot injuries he went through over the last year or so.
There are some posters here that just take up cyber-space and repeat utter nonsense with breathless glee. SJ’s not that guy. He’s nothing if not consistent and he’s been singing the exact same song as Cashman for at least two years.
Pavano – - and to a lesser extent Clemens – - were the poster children for years of neglecting the farm and being desperate for pitching. That compelled the Yanks to overpay for FAs. Consistent with what SJ is talking about, Cashman has developed the farm quite well and quite quickly to avoid such desperation in the future. SJ’s absolutely right about long term contracts and, specifically, Giambi. That contract was nuts. Way too long, the subsequent steroids problems notwithstanding. Teams need to lock up talent without giving away their leverage and flexibility.
Cashman has since shown restraint wherever possible. He has held onto his talented kids (Melky, Wang, Cano), and he didn’t make the blogger driven trade of Gagne for Kennedy. He waited out Boras on Damon and got him off his 7 years and down to 4. (While I would have preferred 3 years total, 4 beats 7 by a mile). Cash even got A-Rod at a discount considering the Texas money. And assuming it ever gets to that point, the Yankees won’t give Santana a contract of such outsized proportions.
SJ’s been here a long time and makes a lot of sense. You can disagree with him, but trying to make him look like a fool isn’t working.
No but, you can predict one’s body breaking down.
That’s what happens with guys who were juicing as excessively as many were over the years.
We are seeing it all over baseball. Tejada is another guy, rumored to be using, who is showing signs of breaking down at a fairly young age.
Unfortunately for the Yankees, Giambi is a shell of what he was at a pretty young age. These days, fit, natural 35 year olds, can get new deals.
Giambi is like a Porsche with 80,000 miles on it. Not worth what it once was.
“SJ’s been here a long time and makes a lot of sense. You can disagree with him, but trying to make him look like a fool isn’t working.”
Thanks a lot “murphydog”, I did not know this was the equivelent of a playground and we needed to have people behind us yelling “your goin down Hugh Stacks, SJ44 is gonna destroy you!!!!” Im not trying to make him look like a fool, I just disagree with his views on past contracts and the Yankees payroll.
“your goin down Hugh Stacks, SJ44 is gonna destroy you!!!!â€
wow, a little sensitive to differing viewpoints, eh?
I must be missing something (apart from brains, which I freely acknowledge is the case), but why does everyone keep talking about trading for Santana when the likelihood is that he won’t accept an extension and will become a FA at the end 08?
I know that I’m foolishly repeating this, however I’d much rather go into 2008 with Andy (if the Yanks can only convince him to come back!), Joba, IPK, Hughes and Mussina (with Karstens/Rasner as emergency insurance) and see how these kids develope. The Yanks can bid on Sanatana when he’s a free agent and not risk giving away a potential 1 or 2 starter, most probably Hughes.
I know it’s all about instant gratification in New York, but does no one else share with me the satisfaction of waiting a year or so in order to see these young guns become a new dominant force in the AL?
The Yankees have what, 10 or 12 great pitching prospects in the current three, plus the minors (some, of course a couple of years away), and we know that the averages say that maybe 3 in 10 will be serviceable to very good/great. So many people will say there’s no problem in trading away one of the current three now (heavens forbid two!), but how can we know for sure if the three we have up here now aren’t the 3 in 10 who will be the ones to succeed? I know, the odds are against it, but stranger things have happened. Therefore, once again, why not wait out a year and see where this goes? There are just so many more options at the end of next season. Why not see what we have in Betemit, try to sign Hunter, (make Melky the 4th OF and play two games a week while resting an Abreu or Damon), DH Matsui and make Giambi play first base till he drops. Duncan/Phillips can caddy for Jason until he does and then take turns there when he crashes for the season.
The Yanks can also take their chances in the pen with Vizcaino, Ohlendorf, Veras, Karstens/Rasner, etc and their many minor league prospects. I don’t believe there’s anyone out there worth paying, nor trading for without giving up too much. Sign Molina and use him frequently to keep PO fresh.
Giradi will keep everyone on their toes and, with a bit of luck, this could not only be a competitive team but also one primed for the future – a future which could very well be as soon 2009.
Yeah Jorge! I can watch my favorite Yankee for 4 more years! Awesome!
:blue: