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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Linebrink deal a bullpen budget buster

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 23, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

I’ve been off my laptop for a while. I read some baseball late Thursday night (while watching USC hammer Arizona State) and noticed that the White Sox signed Scott Linebrink for four years and $19 million.

At best, Linebrink is trending slightly downward the last two years. At worst, he’s headed to Farnsworthville. Linebrink had a 5.23 ERA in the second half last season and opposing hitters had an OPS of .833. In the National League, too.

If this is the set-up market (and I guess it is), then go get ‘em Ross Ohlendorf.

The Yankees should keep The Viz. But if Linebrink got an average annual value of $4.75 million, what is Luis going to get? $12 million over three? Yikes.

Mariano Rivera is at least getting paid for services rendered. But Linebrink’s deal must have had GMs reaching for the tequila after their turkey.

———————

In case you missed it: The Yankees signed former first-round pick C.J. Henry as a minor-league free agent. He was one of the prospects sent to Philly for Bobby Abreu. A bust as a SS (and a hitter), Henry now plays OF and will be tried at Class A Tampa.

———————

Vacation is going well. Oddly, I am going to a Bruins game today with some friends. Odd because I am not much of a hockey fan. But my buddy Deano scored four club seats for the noon game, so why not?

I babysat my nephew Jason for a few hours on Wednesday. Contrary to a previous post, he is no terror. He is fact a delightful little kid who loves Thomas The Tank Engine.

Much to my amusement, I learned that Alec Baldwin is the narrator for some Thomas episodes. I kept waiting for him to tell Thomas that coffee is for closers or that third prize is you’re fired.

Hope you all had a good holiday.

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177 Responses to “Linebrink deal a bullpen budget buster”

  1. Frank Discussion November 23rd, 2007 at 12:22 am

    “Want to see what second prize is ? Second prize is a set of steak knives”…

    One of my favorite movies, always nice to see a reference. I’m watching “Thomas” as well with my 1 year old daughter. I’ve noticed George Carlin narrating episodes as well.

  2. whoa November 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 am

    There is no way that the Yankees should give Viz more than a one year contract. Pitchers that have been overused by Torre tend to decline the following season.

  3. A-Point November 23rd, 2007 at 12:33 am

    Ringo used to be Mr. Conductor on Thomas the Tank Engine. He was made for that part.

    I think the Yankees might need to re-sign up the Viz. He did a decent job, and the bullpen needs a lot of work.

  4. BBB (Damn the Man, save the Empire!) November 23rd, 2007 at 1:04 am

    Hi everybody, checking in from the fam’s house to say Happy Thanksgiving….hope you all had a terrific holiday!! Although it’s a sure thing that none of us had/will have as prosperous a holiday season as Scott Linebrink…4 years 19 mil?!? Wow that’s despicable! For a pitcher who gave up a boatload of HR’s last year in PETCO of all places? It’s official, Kenny Williams is on crack.

    I have to wonder two things: first of all, did MLB yell at the Pale Hose for driving the market value for relievers up like they did with us and Mo?! Sheesh, at least we paid an eye-popping amount of money to the best reliever of all time, rather than one who sucks!

    Also, this would make it seem as if they are trying to revamp their bullpen and won’t trade Jenks…or would they? Stranger things have happened, and as has been established by the events of today, Williams IS smokin the crackrawk..

    for the record, I also think 18 mil to Torii Hunter is too much. I guess someone had to overpay for him, but it makes me LOL that it was the Angels who did it, considering just last year they overpaid for Matthews Jr. supposedly to improve their defense in CF….heh. So much for that huh?! Unlike Matthews, Hunter legitimately WILL improve their defense…too bad they already paid someone to do that :)

    anyway, hope everyone had a great turkey day…to all who are crazy enough to brave Black Friday, enjoy!

  5. E-ROC November 23rd, 2007 at 1:05 am

    LOL, Pete, u just had to take a jab Alec Baldwin for what he said to his daughter on that voicemail message.

    Percival and Marc Kroon, please. I don’t know about Viz for 3 years.

  6. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 1:06 am

    whoa
    November 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 am
    There is no way that the Yankees should give Viz more than a one year contract. Pitchers that have been overused by Torre tend to decline the following season.

    ____________________________________________________
    Perhaps if Cashman had provided Torre’s teams with more than two dependable starters in each of the last 4 years or more than two dependable relief pitchers in the last six years, pitchers like Gordon, Proctor and Vizacaino wouldn’t have been “overworked”.

  7. gayle November 23rd, 2007 at 1:19 am

    I believe there is somewhat of a misconception that the Viz was overused (I had the same one) HOwever if you look at his innings pitched over his career this seems NOt to be the case.

    2002 – 81 innings in 76 games
    2003 – 62 innings in 73 games
    2004 – 72 in 73 games
    2005 – 70 in 65 games
    2006 – 65.3 in 70 games
    2007 – 75.3 in 77 games

    Yes he was used more this year then every other year BUT 2002 it is not as bad as I thought

  8. A-Point November 23rd, 2007 at 1:41 am

    The Viz had been nicknamed “Everyday” before he came to the Yankees.

    I agree that Torre gets somewhat of a bad rap with the “destruction of pitcher’s arms” stuff. When you looked at the bullpen this past season alone, there weren’t many choices to go to that could hold a score.

  9. whoa November 23rd, 2007 at 1:48 am

    GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 1:06 am

    whoa
    November 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 am

    Perhaps if Cashman had provided Torre’s teams with more than two dependable starters in each of the last 4 years or more than two dependable relief pitchers in the last six years, pitchers like Gordon, Proctor and Vizacaino wouldn’t have been “overworked.

    Perhaps if Cashman had been given the authority to run the amateur draft for more than two years, he wouldn’t have had to gamble on starters like Vazquez, Weaver, and Pavano, who btw, many teams in MLB wanted when Cashman acquired them.

    We know that since Cash was given control over the draft in 2005, the Yankees’ farm system has more top tier pitching prospects than perhaps any time in the franchise’s history.

    You seem to be overlooking the fact that Torre had far more talent to work with than almost any team in MLB. But to the Torre defenders, if Torre didn’t have the perfect team, it’s just not fair.

    What you should focus on was that Torre often used Gordon, Vizcaino, and Proctor with over five run leads. That’s why they pooped out over time.

  10. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 am

    Perhaps if Cashman had been given the authority to run the amateur draft for more than two years, he wouldn’t have had to gamble on starters like Vazquez, Weaver, and Pavano, who btw, many teams in MLB wanted when Cashman acquired them.

    We know that since Cash was given control over the draft in 2005, the Yankees’ farm system has more top tier pitching prospects than perhaps any time in the franchise’s history.

    You seem to be overlooking the fact that Torre had far more talent to work with than almost any team in MLB. But to the Torre defenders, if Torre didn’t have the perfect team, it’s just not fair.

    What you should focus on was that Torre often used Gordon, Vizcaino, and Proctor with over five run leads. That’s why they pooped out over time.

    __________________________________________________
    So, Torre’s the reason that Cashman didn’t have control of the draft, so that means that Torre was the reason that the players, and, pitchers in particular, were less than second rate? How many times were they used with 5 run leads because they were brought in with runners on the bases and nobody out, facing the middle of the order.
    Gotta love it that anybody who questions some of these so-called expert analysis are usually referred to as __________(fill in your favorite name)lovers or apologists. Torre had faults, there is no denying that, but, there are other people that need to take a hit on a few things, too. Whether you accept that or not. You’re the type that has no problem blaming a Rodriguez or a Wang for failure, but, get indignant when Jeter’s failures are mentioned, because “he has the rings”.

  11. whoa November 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 am

    GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 am

    So, Torre’s the reason that Cashman didn’t have control of the draft, so that means that Torre was the reason that the players, and, pitchers in particular, were less than second rate? How many times were they used with 5 run leads because they were brought in with runners on the bases and nobody out, facing the middle of the order.
    Gotta love it that anybody who questions some of these so-called expert analysis are usually referred to as __________(fill in your favorite name)lovers or apologists. Torre had faults, there is no denying that, but, there are other people that need to take a hit on a few things, too. Whether you accept that or not. You’re the type that has no problem blaming a Rodriguez or a Wang for failure, but, get indignant when Jeter’s failures are mentioned, because “he has the rings”.

    Where did I say that? That’s right, I didn’t.

    My point is that Torre had more than enough ammo to win multiple World Series since 2000, but the team failed to do in part because Torre made bad moves, particularly with regard to bullpen management, e.g., using Weaver for two IP in the 2003 WS, or using Gordon with a 9 run lead in the 2004 ALCS.

    Posters on various boards have done multiple analyses of the greater than five run usage pattern, and although I am not about to spend hours searching for those tallies at 3am, to the best of my recollection, Torre used Viz and Gordon approximately 10 times each with a greater than five run leads.

    I really don’t care what the situation was when they were brought in, there is no excuse for it to be done repeatedly, and it cost the Yankees dearly over time.

    But if you are so focused on using a quality reliever in a high leverage situation, why didn’t Torre use Mo in the sixth or seventh inning with game on the line when the team had, for example, a one run lead with the heart of the order coming up with men on base? Afterall, that is the point in the game when a game truly needs to be saved, and if it isn’t there will be no save situation in the ninth. In fairness, virtually no manager does it, because they have all had their judgment distorted by the save stat.

    I don’t knw what type you are referring to, but I have been calling for Jeter to be moved to CF for years, think that he has failed in his role as captain for not defending A-Rod.

    I don’t view Wang as a controversial figure.

  12. mko November 23rd, 2007 at 3:32 am

    > But if you are so focused on using a quality reliever in a high leverage situation, why didn’t Torre use Mo in the sixth or seventh inning with game on the line when the team had, for example, a one run lead with the heart of the order coming up with men on base? Afterall, that is the point in the game when a game truly needs to be saved, and if it isn’t there will be no save situation in the ninth. In fairness, virtually no manager does it, because they have all had their judgment distorted by the save stat.

    ——————

    THAT’S how the pitchers should be managed IMO…when the game is on the line put your best guy in there and let him bail you out. More often then not he should succeed and maybe no dangerous situations will come up for the rest of the ballgame.

    Why is nobody doing that? It’s all about winning, isn’t it? Or is it really more about stats – at least in this context?

  13. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 4:09 am

    E-roc,

    Pete’s referencing the movie Glengarry Glen Ross

    Google or YouTube it. It’s too profane to post a link to the video clip, but it’s a classic.

    Hope you had a good Thanksgiving in Iraq.

  14. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 4:29 am

    mko,

    I didn’t have a problem with not bringing Mo in the 6th because that’s too early and then who would close?

    What drove me nuts is how Torre would manage games that went into extra innings. He’d use Villone for just 1 guy. Then we’d end up with guys like Henn pitching in the bottom of the 14th. I know it’s not easy to manage, but we somehow managed to lose a lot of those extra inning games.

    I see what you mean about Mo, though. It seems that Torre managed him differently.

  15. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 5:49 am

    mel
    November 23rd, 2007 at 4:29 am
    mko,

    I didn’t have a problem with not bringing Mo in the 6th because that’s too early and then who would close?

    What drove me nuts is how Torre would manage games that went into extra innings. He’d use Villone for just 1 guy. Then we’d end up with guys like Henn pitching in the bottom of the 14th. I know it’s not easy to manage, but we somehow managed to lose a lot of those extra inning games.

    I see what you mean about Mo, though. It seems that Torre managed him differently.

    ______________________________________________________
    If you, or, others went back over the past few years, you’d discover that NYY actually have a very good record in 1 and 2 run and extra inning games. This year was a different story, which leads one to believe that it was the middle inning pitching this season that was bad, not the managing. 1 and 2 run losses along with extra inning losses for most teams are cyclic. If they’re good in those areas for a couple of years, generally, they’ll be bad in the next 1 or 2 years.This holds true for almost every team. NYY has been the one team over the years to buck that trend. It’s because of the combination of offense, closer and late inning relief. Go back over the last 10 years and you’ll see that in vertually every other team but NYY.

  16. E-ROC November 23rd, 2007 at 6:39 am

    Thanx for clearing that up for me, Mel. I’ve seen that movie. I didn’t know Pete was referencing that though.

  17. E-ROC November 23rd, 2007 at 6:45 am

    Our bullpen was horrible. Viz got abused. Proctor couldn’t take the abuse anymore. Farns was being an arse. Britton was never ever given a chance. Ohlendorf arrived late. Joba…..was Joba. Rivera…..was Rivera. Myers took one for the team multiple times, but his job was to get lefties out and he couldn’t do that. Villone was bad. Bruney was being an arse, too. Am I missing somebody? All in all, the pieces that were in the bullpen overall were horrible. Hopefully, Cash can change and I think he will.

  18. Adrian-Retire21 November 23rd, 2007 at 6:48 am

    Fransworth is probaly looking a little better trading wise if we eat up some of that contract.I mean the Viz might get 4 million a year or deemand 2 to 3 years before the Linebrink deal.

  19. Matt November 23rd, 2007 at 7:31 am

    A reasonable 1-year deal with Vizcaino is acceptable but the 1st need is for lefthanders.
    Middle relief being what it is, can see somebody emerge from Britton, Veras, and Edwar to help with Viz as righthanders. Farnsworth (if not traded) is also in the mix.
    Karstens and Ohlendorf can compete for the long relief spot.

  20. Jim Clark November 23rd, 2007 at 7:50 am

    What makes anyone think Vizcaino or any reasonably decent relief pitcher will take a 1 year deal? Baseball can not go around bragging they have surpassed the NFL in revenues at $6 billion and not expect the players to hold their hands out wanting what they feel is there fair share. As my favorite Yankee of my youth Jim Bouton puts it: “I’m not saying the players deserve to be paid millions. What I’m saying is the owners deserve it less than we do.”

  21. yanks61 November 23rd, 2007 at 8:20 am

    Whoa,

    I didn’t realize that you had been advocating moving Jeter to CF! I’m really happy to have you, one of the very most astute posters, in agreement!

    Living overseas, I only get to see a few games a year back in the states, but read quite a bit of commentary including, obviously, that which appears here. From all that I can tell, one has to conclude that the switch is not only plausible but long overdue. I think the idea of his diminishing range is less important in the OF than at SS, where first step reflexes can make a big difference. Jeter’s fly tracking skills are just so superior that one would have to think that he’d intuitively take good routes to flyballs and that, too, would make up for any initial ‘jump’ on the ball he may lacking.I keep reading others knocking the idea for all kinds of reasons, even lack of a CF’s arm. Excuse me, our own Damon and, before that, Mickey Rivers, did pretty well with less of an arm.

    When I was a teenager, Kubek, then Tresh and even Pepitone used to rotate into CF to give Mick a break. OK, they started at a much younger age, but neither of the three, I don’t think, were as athletic as Derek. Then, of course, there is the example of more recent years with guys like Molitor.

    At some point, the Yankees (and Derek) are going to have to come to terms with his diminishing defensive skills at short and with this young pitching staff hopefully throwing lots of grounders, we’ll want to have a crisper defense there. Not sure who’ll that be just yet, but it really does have to be looked at, sooner rather than later, IMHO, of course.

  22. NH Mike November 23rd, 2007 at 8:29 am

    “Coffee is for closers” that’s what I told my wife this morning when she suggested we get her mom a Starbucks giftcard for Christmas. I suggested a “set of steak knives” but she didn’t get it..

  23. Mike S. November 23rd, 2007 at 8:31 am

    Been advocating Derek to the OF myself, esp. since he will be 34 next year. Think Robin Yount.

    A position switch for Derek will have to be considered soon–in direct proportion to his diminishing range–most likely when he turns 35 and especially after the 2009 season.

    As for Mantle, there were guys called “Mickey’s legs” whose sole role was to be a defensive replacement for Mickey. One was Jack Reed. Another was Ross Moschitto.

  24. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 8:52 am

    My son went thru a Thomas the Train phase. I was glad when that ended b/c those things are expensive!! :) Then came the Power Rangers phase…then Yu-Gi-Oh/Pokemon … thankfully, now he’s pretty much just settled on sports (baseball first, then football), so it works out nice for both of us!

    As for the Yankees, I’m at “wait and see,” because I think a different work ethic will be enacted with Girardi at the helm. I hate to say it, as much as I love Torre, but I think things had become somewhat complacent under him, and I think Girardi will run a tighter ship with more accountability. I see this as a good thing. I don’t see Girardi sitting back in the dugout watching things happen. I think he will really be on top of things, and I think his staff will really be working with the player in ST. I think we will see improvements in the Spring or, if nothing else, a better consistency in playing.

    As for Jeter, I’m not ready to send him to OF yet. I think he played much of last year hurt in some capacity. While that’s an admireable thing for him to do, it can hurt the team, as well. I want to see how he does this next season before we start saying it’s time for a position shift. I think he’s earned at least that. I would like to see more of a “real person” with Jeter, rather than the carefully scripted answers he always gives, but that will probably never happen.

  25. J. V. - Yonkers November 23rd, 2007 at 8:54 am

    Unless the Yankees get Mark Teixeira as a FA, the Captain could solve the 1st base situation for 2009 and longer if Alberto Gonzalez or Reegie Corona are ready to handle SS.

  26. east side yankee November 23rd, 2007 at 8:56 am

    Joe Torre will go into the hall of fame as an iconic figure and a beloved Yankee. But if you think he is a good tactician you just haven’t been paying attention.

    The Yankees of 96 – 01 were phenomenal teams. All Torre had to do was plug in his starters and throw in Mike Stanton, Nelson and Mendoza when the playoffs came around. Torre management of the bullpen has always been the same. Find the hot hand and ride that horse till he has nothing else. His management of the starters has been the same as well; trust the veterans, they will always come thru for you in the end.

    The reason the strategy worked is 1) he had hall of fame pitchers that made him look brilliant (see David Cone and Mariano Rivera) 2) Other MLB teams just weren’t as good as the yankees.

    In the 2001 world series, Mariano could not get it done in game 7. Torre had been overusing Mariano for many years prior to that and this was the year it finally caught up to the yankees. Since then Torre has refused to change his bullpen management. He finds a hot hand and proceeds to destroy them so they have nothing left in the playoffs. Torre has even ended some careers. The list includes: Steve Karsay, Tom Gordon, Tanyon Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Ron Villone, Paul Quantrill and now Vizcaino.

    It’s not so much the number of innings that is the problem it is how they are distributed. For example, Viz’s innings totals may have been similar to previous years but Torre barely used him in April, May and up to mid – June. When Viz started getting outs he used him all the time and then Viz had nothing at the end of the year. We may argue that last year Torre had no choice but this is what he has always done.

    Those who say Mariano has slipped and point to his ERA do not realize that it is a function of just 2 games early in the season (Oakland and Toronto). That Mariano is still going strong is a testament to the generational talent he actually is. Take a good look folks cause when Mariano is gone there ain’t another one that will even come close. I’d love to see what would happen to Papelbon if the Sox dared to use him for 100 innings in a season.

    The Yanks were right to want a new manager. Torre has proven that he is not a tactician. He has never made a team better. Girardi on the other hand has proven he can make a team better

  27. DHC November 23rd, 2007 at 8:57 am

    Yanks61, the voice of reason, says:
    Jeter’s fly tracking skills are just so superior that one would have to think that he’d intuitively take good routes to flyballs and that, too, would make up for any initial ‘jump’ on the ball he may lacking.I keep reading others knocking the idea for all kinds of reasons, even lack of a CF’s arm. Excuse me, our own Damon and, before that, Mickey Rivers, did pretty well with less of an arm.
    ____________________________________________________

    Jeter always seems to know where the ball is going to be (although at SS it appears he can’t always get there) and I think that would be a huge advantage in CF. Melky is young and spry and has a good arm, but that’s not much help when he starts off running to someplace where the ball’s not gonna come down and has to keep changing course.

    I think one reason Jeter may hate the idea is that he’s easily bored and wants to be up to something all the time, or so his teammates and Torre have said.

  28. Stan November 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 am

    It’s not likely to happen but it would be funny if Santana wasn’t dealt by the Twins over the winter and he went on to have a 6-10 record at the All Star break. For the Twins it would be like the stock market crashed.

  29. pat November 23rd, 2007 at 9:19 am

    If you want to make the case that Joe Girardi will be a stronger in game manager or more aggressive, that I’ll buy. To think he’s going to be more aggressive or in your face with players as a first year manager, I have had a hard time believing. If there are going to be clubhouse or cultural changes on a team that is still very veteran, they are likely to be subtle and gradual as he establishes himself.

  30. E-ROC November 23rd, 2007 at 9:22 am

    I think Jeter will switch in 2009. Alberto Gonzalez hasn’t shown that he can hit consistently yet. Let’s just hope for a healthy Jeter in ’08.

  31. Brian (Red Sox Fan) November 23rd, 2007 at 9:29 am

    Jeter in CF might be worth a try …. his days as a SS are numbered (his critics would say that they’re over). But I don’t think that he has the skill set for CF. He has no “fast twitch” musculature, and takes a LONG time to get started. His speed is OK, but nothing special. And his arm has been deteriorating for years.
    Jeter’s not stupid …. he has no intention of embarrassing himself by playing a new position for which he is ill-suited. He’ll hang on at SS for as long as Giradi will let him, refusing “to go gentle into that good night.”

  32. Joe from Long Island November 23rd, 2007 at 9:32 am

    E-Roc – I think that injuries really affected Jeter’s play in the second half last season. The problem was that, given that every game was precious because of the hole they were in, you couldn’t really DL-him. Who did they have to fill-in for the 2 weeks? 80% of Derek Jeter was better than anyone else they had to play SS.

  33. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 9:36 am

    “I believe there is somewhat of a misconception that the Viz was overused (I had the same one) HOwever if you look at his innings pitched over his career this seems NOt to be the case.”

    The final total doesn’t tell the whole story. If you pitch five times in six days and then don’t pitch for four days, it looks like you didn’t get over used. But you did, and you need more than four days to recover from it. He got slammed in april and then again once he returned to form. They kind of needed to in order to win, but still…he clearly got burnt out.

  34. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 am

    NY Post says Jeter can learn from DiMaggio: Never knew Joe went through the same and how much Joe’s life is similar to Jeets from reading about him.

    November 23, 2007

    Learn From Joe

    Derek Jeter, who’s being dunned for taxes by New York state, should consider taking a page from Joe DiMaggio’s playbook. When the Yankee Clipper had titanic tax trouble in California in the 1980s, he hired Morris Engelberg, a former agent for the IRS and a specialist in tax law. Dr. Rock Positano recalls: “Joe once told me, ‘Doc, Morris saved my life. I was being treated like a wounded animal ready to be eaten by the wolves.’ ” Engelberg is still in practice and very active, ready to save Jeter from a similar fate.

  35. jon November 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Joe’s biggest problem was the predefined roles he had for his relievers. And worse than having those roles was the fact that some of them made absolutely no sense.

    He completely refused to bring in good relievers if the Yankees were down at all. And he would bring them in with a huge lead – where there was no need for them to be in the game at all.

    The most famous example of course is bringing in Joba with a 5 run lead against Cleveland.

    But this is my favorite example:

    Background: If you recall, Vizcaino was horribly overworked (perhaps justifiably, given the state of the staff) in April, leading to a horrible April and May. He seemed to put things together with some rest, and had a good June and July. Clearly, like just about any other pitcher, he pitched better when better rested.

    Now comes a stretch against the Royals and White Sox:

    August 1: Vizcaino is brought in in the 8th with a 7-1 lead.
    August 2: brought in in the 8th with a 6-1 lead
    August 4: brought in in the 8th with a 16-7 lead!

    If that was not clear:

    Here’s a pitcher who was overworked early in the season, who has started pitching well again. Joe brought him in for the 3rd time in 4 days with a NINE RUN LEAD. He should have put Jason Giambi into pitch with a 9 run lead before Vizcaino.

    There’s just no justification for this. This, more than anything, is the reason I’m glad he’s gone. Hopefully Girardi better understands the concept of high-leverage pitching situations.

    Now, I’m not that naive to think that he’d do something revolutionary (but clearly correct) like refuse to bring Mo in with a 3-run lead. But maybe he’ll know that, especially with the Yankee offense, it makes more sense to bring your good relievers in with a 1 or 2 run defecit than with a 9 run lead.

  36. yanks61 November 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Mike S.

    Good call; I remember Jack Reed very well. Mick’s caddy was an excellent fielder who couldn’t hit a lick; 2.33 lifetime BA in 222 AB with 2 homers. But he had one of the best job in BB subbing for the Mick!

    J.V. Yonkers – Yes, you’ve got another very good point about Jeter to 1B, unless they decide to hold it open for Posada!

    DHC – Thanks for the kind words! Yes, I can imagine Derek might feel that way (boredom), but he’ll be moving into the most prestigious position in BB in stepping into CF in the footsteps of Joe D., Mick and his own former teammate, Bernie. He could take some lessons from Wille Mays, who read catcher’s signs and manouvered himself and fellow OF according to the pitch!

    E-Roc – agree that it should be 2009.

    Sherri- I agree that Derek is going nowhere this year, but as E-Roc suggests this should get done (move to 1B or CF) while he’s still young enough to adjust. I think Yankee management has to start privately ‘selling’ the idea to him so that’s ready to take on the challenge in 2009.

  37. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 am

    yanks61 – I think the “selling” of the idea is the major point with Jeter. It’s an ego thing mainly, IMHO, to admit you’re not as good as you once were. When we told my Dad he couldn’t drive anymore, everyone knew it was the right thing, but it took a LONG time before he would ever admit it. Okay, maybe that’s a bad analogy, but they have to frame it in a way that it’s not like conceding defeat. I guess that’s true for any aging player, but especially true for someone like the Captain, who has had a rather “larger than life” persona.

  38. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 am

    Jon nailed it.

    Viz was our best reliever for a while – as soon as he started picking MO’s brain… Then we absolutely ran him into the ground.

  39. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 am

    east side yankee
    November 23rd, 2007 at 8:56 am

    1. In the 2001 world series, Mariano could not get it done in game 7. Torre had been overusing Mariano for many years prior to that and this was the year it finally caught up to the yankees.

    2. Since then Torre has refused to change his bullpen management. He finds a hot hand and proceeds to destroy them so they have nothing left in the playoffs. Torre has even ended some careers. The list includes: Steve Karsay, Tom Gordon, Tanyon Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Ron Villone, Paul Quantrill and now Vizcaino.

    3. He has never made a team better. (referring to Torre) Girardi on the other hand has proven he can make a team better

    ____________________________________________________
    Taking this one at a time.
    1. Rivera lost that game 7 because of his own throwing error and because of a broken bat blooper.

    2. I should have quit reading this when you mentioned Karsey, Quantrill and finally the super talented Tanyon Sturtze. Karsey had a long history of arm trouble…good one year, arm trouble the next. Quantrill had been used for years be Toronto, and especially hard by the Dodgers and NYY got him at the age of 35. Torre didn’t used him any differently than those teams. The following year, he started slowly and NYY traded him. He pitched the same amount of games and innings in SD after the trade. His ERA went down because of the ballpark and the NL West. He retired at the end of the year because he was 37. Now we come to the legwendary Tanyon Sturtze. Exactly when did he ever have a successful year and how was he overworked. He was a spot starter and long man out of the pen. He actually worked fewer innings with NYY than he did with the teams before NYY. He was a starter two years prior to joining NY, working more than 220 innings for Tampa. He had arm surgery last year at the age of 35. Old pitchers have arm trouble. By the way, his numbers were better in NY than anywhere else except for 2001. Proctor’s numbers in 2007 were the same as in 2006. Pretty solid both years. Still no arm trouble.

    3. Another one who says he never won or improved a team befor NYY. Better check your numbers again. Nobody, including John McGraw was going to win with those late ’70′s Mets teams, but, they did improve. Torre took over a losing Braves team from ’81, and won the NL West his first year and finished 2 the next two years. In ’90, he took over a losing Cards team, and the improved during that partial season and finished 2nd his first full season. He had winning teams the next two years also.
    It’s ok to dislike Torre, the manager and want him gone, but, please get the facts straight.
    As far as Girardi goes, he’s managed one year. Nobody knows what he’ll do with veterans. If he comes in with his Billy Martin/Buck Showalter face on, he’ll lose.

  40. DHC November 23rd, 2007 at 10:22 am

    east side yankee said:

    Torre has even ended some careers. The list includes: Steve Karsay, Tom Gordon, Tanyon Sturtze, Scott Proctor, Ron Villone, Paul Quantrill and now Vizcaino.
    _____________________________________________

    Some of these guys seem not to have noticed that their careers were ended and went on playing well. Scott Proctor, for example, did so well in LA that Grady Little used him considerably more than Torre had. Proctor was all over the LA papers about how thrilled he was to get a chance to play for Torre again, and how he told his teammates great things about Torre.

  41. yanks61 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 am

    Sherri & John (R.S. Fan )- by the way, I love Dylan Thomas’s poetry, though he could often be something of a dissolute lout!

    Well, it’s an interesting and pertinent discussion at least. It becomes clearer all the time that something will need to be done. Sherri, if he has the skill set to make the move to CF, the selling could be done, I hope, by reminding him of Yankee greats who preceded him there.

    Brian (red Sox Fan) – you make some very good points. My hope would be that his intelligence would gain him the advantage of better positioning for each batter, thereby negating the negative; a lack of a great jump. Would he ever be Willie Mays? Of course not, but he could be at least an ‘average’ CF and stay an important part of the team for several years beyond his ‘useful’ SS life.

    Of course, you’re also quite right that he wouldn’t want to embarrass himself and neither would the Yanks want him to be embarrased. So this would of course be characterized as an experiment once they’ve convinced him to give it a try in ST. I agree that 1B would be an even easier transistion, but, again, that may be held in reserve for Jorge.

  42. Joe from Long Island November 23rd, 2007 at 10:28 am

    One thing that always bothers me when discussing Torre’s history of bullpen use, and how he “ruined Paul Quantrill”. As I remember, early that year (I think it was April), Quantrill was hit off his right leg with a liner up the middle. He pitched the remainder of the season with a brace on that leg, and refused to acknowledge that it might be affecting him. I have to think that an injury of that sort might impact on his pitching.

  43. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 am

    yanks61
    November 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 am
    Mike S.

    Good call; I remember Jack Reed very well. Mick’s caddy was an excellent fielder who couldn’t hit a lick; 2.33 lifetime BA in 222 AB with 2 homers. But he had one of the best job in BB subbing for the Mick!

    J.V. Yonkers – Yes, you’ve got another very good point about Jeter to 1B, unless they decide to hold it open for Posada!

    DHC – Thanks for the kind words! Yes, I can imagine Derek might feel that way (boredom), but he’ll be moving into the most prestigious position in BB in stepping into CF in the footsteps of Joe D., Mick and his own former teammate, Bernie. He could take some lessons from Wille Mays, who read catcher’s signs and manouvered himself and fellow OF according to the pitch!

    E-Roc – agree that it should be 2009.

    Sherri- I agree that Derek is going nowhere this year, but as E-Roc suggests this should get done (move to 1B or CF) while he’s still young enough to adjust. I think Yankee management has to start privately ’selling’ the idea to him so that’s ready to take on the challenge in 2009.
    ______________________________________________________
    It was Jack Reed who hit the 2 run homer against Detroit in 1962 in the top of the 22nd inning. Mantle started in right field that game, and Pepitone came into the game two spell Mantle. Phil Linz pinch hit for
    Pepitone who batted once and Reed took over. Mantle’s caddy starting in ’65 and ’66 was Ross Moschitto.

  44. yanks61 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:35 am

    GreenBeret7 – Excellent points all. Thanks for pointing out all that about Joe Torre.

    You know what? I loved the guy, but still felt that a time for change had arrived along with the youngsters. I perfectly agree with you about how Girardi cannot come in like gangbusters on the vets. I hope he’s smart enough to understand that.

  45. east side yankee November 23rd, 2007 at 10:41 am

    To DHC and GreenBeret 7

    I said ended “some” careers. I did not say he ended all careers. He did end Karsay’s career. Karsay was having a fine year for us. He had nothing in the playoff series in 2002 and then had shoulder problems.

    I never said Sturtze was a good pitcher. I said that once he started throwing good innings for the yankees in relief Torre overused him.

    The above are facts.

    Don’t put words in my mouth. I never bashed Torre. I pointed out why it was time for him to go.

    The 06 Marlins were expected to lose over 100 games. They did not. Girardi deserves some of the credit. The Yankees are always expected to win. Its not a bash its just the truth.

    The evidence of what happens to relievers under Torre is too strong too ignore as coincedence.

    By the way, it doesn’t matter what specifically happened in the last inning of the ’01″ series. Mariano did not get it done. Didn’t he blow them away in the eighth inning of the 7th game? Don’t accuse me of bashing Mariano. He was overused that entire season and it just caught up with him. it happens

  46. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 am

    yanks61
    November 23rd, 2007 at 10:35 am
    GreenBeret7 – Excellent points all. Thanks for pointing out all that about Joe Torre.

    You know what? I loved the guy, but still felt that a time for change had arrived along with the youngsters. I perfectly agree with you about how Girardi cannot come in like gangbusters on the vets. I hope he’s smart enough to understand that.

    _________________________________________________________
    I don’t necessarily feel that Torre should have been gone, but, it really doesn’t kill me. To say he never won, though, is as wrong as pointing out the “pitching careers he killed”. It’s BS. He wasn’t the greatest at bullpenners, but, after Nelson, Stanton and Mendoza all left, he usually had Rivera and one arm in the pen. He used those that got the job done. I was in the military, and, if I couldn’t trust a guy to do his mission after two or three times, I found somebody who could, and that’s who I used…or, abused, but, they also knew why, and, so did everyone else. You use who you trust and give the meaningless jobs to those who can’t perform.

  47. Andrea November 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 am

    GreenBeret: The only point I’ll disagree with you on is Scott Proctor. When he went to the Dodgers and was used less often, his fastball was recorded at over 100mph, with some consistency. I’m not saying he turned into Joba, but he was losing it with the Yankees in 2007 (remember when he burned all his stuff?), and he was almost rejuvinated when he was moved to the Dodgers.

    I still maintain that he was crying himself to sleep when he found out Torre was coming to the Dodgers.

  48. Kill-Schill(ing) November 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 am

    Torre was prone to overusing middle-relievers he trusted, I concede.

    Still I don’t think we can dismiss the weakness of his alternatives so cavalierly.

    Of course, there was no need to pitch Vizcaino with a nine-run lead after using him the previous two days. But one dramatic instance of overuse does not a case make. Viz’s overuse was not attributable to his consistent use in blow-outs. The Yankees enjoyed too few of them in the 2nd half of the season to account for his inning totals.

    No, Vizcaino’s overuse stemmed from Torre’s use of him in close games because the Yankees’ woeful start didn’t provide Joe any margin for experimentation. He had to win every game he could.

    Which, in retrospect, was more a function of how few alternatives Joe had to Viz. Cashman didn’t renew the bullpen ranks until very late in the season: promoting Joba not until mid-August; Ohlendorf and Veras, early September.

    As for the alternative until the minor leaguers replenished the ranks, take a look.

    Farnsworth, we should all recall, was a walking head-case for much of the season. Bruney, superb the year before, reverted to his proclivity for wildness. (How many games did he enter and walk two or more batter in an inning?) Mike Myers, the lefty specialist, couldn’t retire lefties. Proctor suffered from a tired arm and was ineffective. Edwar Ramirez, even in his second stint, alternated between dominating and wretched. Chris Britton wasn’t much better: giving up winning runs in Toronto and getting tatoo-ed by the Devil Rays. Colter Bean? Enough Said. Villone pitched with tremendous heart and guile but didn’t have the stuff to retire the heart of a team’s order in the late innings.

    Torre overused Vizcaino because until Joba’s arrival, Viz, quite simply, was Torre’s best and only reliable reliever.

  49. Kill-Schill(ing) November 23rd, 2007 at 10:49 am

    And I forgot to add to the Torre’s bullpen of futility the Great Sean Henn.

  50. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 am

    Green Beret 7,

    You make some excellent points.

    I’m sure that the Yankees do have an excellent/above average record in 1 or 2 run games in the last 10 years. I’m not really a stat “geek” so I don’t know what the numbers are. I was just giving my impressions of the last year or two when Torre didn’t have a rock solid bullpen. I’m sure the numbers improved when Joba was put into the bullpen and even better when the rules were relaxed.

    Furthermore, if we wanted to be truthful, a lot of those extra inning or close losses would probably point to the hitters. If I were to put my stat hat on, I’d probably find dozens of men left on base in extra innings in just this year alone.

    But I don’t have the energy, and it would be a moot point anyway. There’s a new manager and most likely a very different bullpen. And as Donnie likes to say, “it’s a crapshoot” anyway.

  51. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 10:55 am

    east side yankee

    Sturtze had a 30 day stretch in 2005 where he was decent, and then reverted back to his normal 5.75 ERA self. Karsay came off of arm surgery and in 2001 with Atlanta and Cleveland pitched in 74 games and 88 innings. The two previous years, he had the same numbers. He joined NYY and put up identical numbers as the previous 3 seasons. His arm went bad, the next season. With his history, it was hardly unexpected. Torre gets blamed for using him the same games and innings as his previous two seasons with different teams? Gordon left to close games in a band box, and after two years in Phiasdelphia, he has arm problems, but that’s Torre’s fault? You might want to check a few things out before repeating false information.

  52. east side yankee November 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 am

    I wish I had more tome to debate…have to go shopping.

    If Torre is such a great bullpen manager why did u think the Yankees instituted the ridiculous Joba rules.

    They knew Torre would overuse him if they didn’t put it in place

  53. li November 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Be super careful, a lot of Thomas the Tank toys were recalled this past spring due to high lead levels.

  54. Nud November 23rd, 2007 at 10:57 am

    Idiots still talking about Torre over-using the pen………MOVE ON!!!! Torre was given a crap bullpen for the last 5 yrs…..guys like Gordon and Vizcaino always pitched a lot of innings even before Torre…….move on please

  55. Nud November 23rd, 2007 at 11:00 am

    I still maintain that he was crying himself to sleep when he found out Torre was coming to the Dodgers.

    Yeah, That is why Proctor is on record many times giving credit to Torre about giving him a chance and saying in no way he was over-used

    He thanked Joe for putting him on the map by pitching him

  56. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Nud,

    She’s just joking. It’s a running gag here about Torre, Proctor, & the Dodgers.

    Besides, Andrea knows there’s no crying in baseball.

  57. DHC November 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 am

    GreenBeret7 says:

    I don’t necessarily feel that Torre should have been gone, but, it really doesn’t kill me. To say he never won, though, is as wrong as pointing out the “pitching careers he killed”. It’s BS.
    __________________________________

    Thanks, GB7, you make excellent points. Torre improved the teams he led and I expect he’ll improve the Dodgers as well. Pity that his departure was mishandled by rookie ownership — I had been hoping they would meet the end of his contract with a dignified offer of some nice position in the organization and immediately go to Girardi — but that’s over and everyone seems to have landed on their feet. Unfortunately some people have to distort the record of a great Yankee and HOF manager.

  58. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Andrea
    November 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 am
    GreenBeret: The only point I’ll disagree with you on is Scott Proctor. When he went to the Dodgers and was used less often, his fastball was recorded at over 100mph, with some consistency. I’m not saying he turned into Joba, but he was losing it with the Yankees in 2007 (remember when he burned all his stuff?), and he was almost rejuvinated when he was moved to the Dodgers.

    I still maintain that he was crying himself to sleep when he found out Torre was coming to the Dodgers.

    ____________________________________________________
    Proctor had 52 games, 54 innings in 4 months with NYY, 31 games and 32 innings with LA. He worked a little more often in LA than he was in NY. He averaged 12.5 games and 13 innings a month in NY and 15.5 games and 16 innings a month in LA. Not sure how he was worked less.
    Actually, Proctor was quite happy about Torre coming to LA.

  59. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 am

    But, seriously, do you think Proctor would actually say he was unhappy about Torre coming to the Dodgers? Either way, I’m just sayin’…

  60. Andrea November 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 am

    mel: there’s only crying in Baseball if you’re Harlan Chamberlain. That I’ll allow.

    And I was joking. My goodness.

    East side: The Joba rules are actually not exclusive to the Yankees. Other teams have similar things in play when they’ve got valuable young pitchers, they’re just not as vocal about it. And often they’re not as strict. But such rules do exist for other players and other teams.

  61. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 11:09 am

    “Chris Britton wasn’t much better: giving up winning runs in Toronto and getting tatoo-ed by the Devil Rays.”

    Britton is a middle reliever, a 1-2 inning guy. In the DRays game, Torre had him throw 45 pitches. And he’d been sitting for a week before he got into that game.

    Did he take the loss in the Toronto game? Yeah, again…he’d been sitting for five days.

    Britton’s numbers dictate he should be given a shot at the 6th/7th inning role. I hope that new Joe is willing to do that.

  62. Andrea November 23rd, 2007 at 11:11 am

    Green Beret: then I’m wrong. I stopped paying attention to the Dodgers shortly after he went over there. When he first went, he wasn’t pitching as much (i.e. 2 innings a day) as he was in NY. I tried to keep up with him. I guess all he needed was a change of pace, because I did read things about him that he was doing better over there and his fastball had a great bite on it.

    Prove me wrong all you want. I was kidding about the crying himself to sleep thing, and I have nothing huge against Joe Torre. The fact is, his bullpen management is questionable, whether you like it or not. And people point to him having a mancrush on one pitcher all the time for a reason.

    My goodness. I try to make one little joke! At least Mel thinks I’m funny!

  63. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 11:11 am

    Sherri,

    I’ve heard that Colletti’s drafting up The Proctor Rules.

    Just kidding guys. Like I said, it’s a running gag here.

    Besides no one has ever said a bad word about Torre, even Tanyon Sturtze went out of his way to say that Torre was like a father to him.

  64. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:12 am

    mel
    November 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 am
    Green Beret 7,

    You make some excellent points.

    I’m sure that the Yankees do have an excellent/above average record in 1 or 2 run games in the last 10 years. I’m not really a stat “geek” so I don’t know what the numbers are. I was just giving my impressions of the last year or two when Torre didn’t have a rock solid bullpen. I’m sure the numbers improved when Joba was put into the bullpen and even better when the rules were relaxed.

    Furthermore, if we wanted to be truthful, a lot of those extra inning or close losses would probably point to the hitters. If I were to put my stat hat on, I’d probably find dozens of men left on base in extra innings in just this year alone.

    But I don’t have the energy, and it would be a moot point anyway. There’s a new manager and most likely a very different bullpen. And as Donnie likes to say, “it’s a crapshoot” anyway.

    __________________________________________________
    I can’t take credit for all of that. The idea actually came from an article some years back in a Chicago paper about the White Sox and Cubs, so I checked it out on a couple of other teams, then finally, because I was bored to death, checked all teams over a ten year span. NYY was the only team to buck the odds. Until this past year. Until Chamberlain joined the team, NYY was someing like 10 under .500 in 1 run games, and close two those percentages in extra inning games.

  65. Andrea November 23rd, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Sherri: no I don’t. He would never say he’s unhappy with his manager, nor do I think he’d actually be unhappy to see his old manager back. I was kidding.

  66. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 11:15 am

    Green Beret 7,

    Oh my gosh. I hope you don’t think I was calling you a stat geek!

    There’s two sides to every coin, but it’s still a crapshoot. :)

  67. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 11:15 am

    Good discussion today on the Blog.

    I agree with “Jon” and those others that point out Joe Torre’s weaknesses in Bullpen management.
    Generally, a MLB manager has three jobs:
    (1) Team Spokesman to the media (which, by extension, makes him spokesman to the general public.
    (2) Personnel Manager in charge of keeping the players and coaches happy = Team Chemistry.
    (3) Making Team in-game baseball decisions.

    Torre scored excellent on Tasks 1 and 2. The ease with which he handled the Media and the class he has shown in dealing with baseball issues changed the way the Yankee organization was viewed by the public. Players loved to come to New York and play for Joe (well, most anyway!).

    He gets a mediocore score for his in-game strategy. Its not a secret that Torre spent very little time going over tapes and ingame strategy – that apparently isn’t his style. He really didn’t have too much of a challenge making decisions on who to start – his roster was stocked with primarily (save for pitchers) all-stars. Bullpen managment was very poor. Torre always had “pre-defined roles” for his relievers, and never thought “outside the box” regardless of the circumstances. Last year Vizcaino was a prime example. Its not just “innings piched” that need to be examined,its pitches thrown and the number of consecutive appearances logged that tends to wear out these arms. Check out Viz’s pattern of use last year. Also, check out Villone’s and Prcotr’s patterns in 2006. It goes on and on. Yes, you can blame the failure of starters to go deep into games as part of the cause, but the Yankees were not the only team faced with this issue and torre sometimes was too protective when deciding to lift a starter.

  68. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:16 am

    mel
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:11 am
    Sherri,

    I’ve heard that Colletti’s drafting up The Proctor Rules.

    Just kidding guys. Like I said, it’s a running gag here.

    Besides no one has ever said a bad word about Torre, even Tanyon Sturtze went out of his way to say that Torre was like a father to him.

    ________________________________________________
    Can you imagine what people would say if he had Dick Raditz or Mike Marshall pitching for Torre in their heyday? Anywhere from 70 to 100 games and 165-220 innings, all in relief.

  69. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:18 am

    mel
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:15 am
    Green Beret 7,

    Oh my gosh. I hope you don’t think I was calling you a stat geek!

    There’s two sides to every coin, but it’s still a crapshoot.

    ______________________________________________________
    36 years in the military, Mel. I’ve been called worse. Sometimes by my mother.
    No, not bothered at all.

  70. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 am

    and one other point:
    How many MLB Front Offices institute predefined “rules” that their Manager must follow in using bullpen arms – like the “Joba Rules”? That gives you some insight into what Yankee Front Office thought of Torre’s bullpen skills.

  71. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am

    St Judes Hospital is having a auction for boots designed by Celebs and our very own Jorge Posada designed one.

    Here is a link to it. http://www.cmarket.com/auction.....d=58588171

  72. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am

    I just want to say that I love Torre. I was very sad when he left, and thought it was handled poorly. Having said that, I am excited about Girardi, and look forward to what he can do in the future. Not to take anything away from Torre, but his bullpen mgmt was questionable, but then we all have our faults. He’s a HOF’er and will go down as one of the Yankee greats, as he should.

    A new era is beginning and I look forward to the future! I think the Dodgers will be better for having Torre, just like I feel like the Yankees will benefit with Girardi — if for no other reason, just because of the change and it being a “new” beginning. I think once you’ve been anywhere for a long time, there tends to be a natural complacency about situations that might be looked at differently in a new environment. I hope that makes sense.

  73. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 am

    “Proctor Rules” — laughing my tush off…

    I hope we can do something with this pen… We need a couple of kids to step up… I am not talking about pitching like joba, but just being solid…

    I want Marte in this pen. We need a decent lefty in the pen.

  74. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am

    LathamJoe
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:15 am
    Good discussion today on the Blog.
    ______________________________________________________
    Like I said, Latham, I learned a long time ago to use people that I trust in crunch time over those that failed to perform after repeated chances to prove themselves.

  75. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am

    Mel – ha! That’s funny!

    I like Proctor, because he stood up for our guys when there was a lot of bean-balling going on!! I hated to see him go.

  76. Kill-Schill(ing) November 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am

    Mel or Green Beret,

    Fascinating stat about close games, by the way.

    If the Yankees were 10 games under .500 in 1-run and 2-run games over last ten years, where does this stat rank them in the league. Any idea?

  77. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 11:25 am

    El Comaduce:
    Absolutely agree! Damaso Marte is the lefty specialist needed in New York. NY has some young right-hand arms that could entice Pittsburgh to give up Marte. Adding him and possibly signing David Riske would really help. That, and the more astute bullpen management that you’ll see in 2008 should change the BP dramatically!

  78. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Green Beret,

    Now I’m really impressed. I have no clue as to who those guys are. But I imagine they had rubber arms like the great Matsuzaka and “Nobody Beats the Viz”.

    That does bring up one little pet peeve I had with Joe. I know it’s hindsight and all that, but he’d seldom let his veteran starters get out of their own messes. For example, he’d sometimes he’d take out Moose with pitch counts in the 80′s. I felt that this led to early use of the bullpen which only compounded our bullpen problems.

    I think we can all agree that 1)Torre didn’t kill arms contrary to popular belief 2) Torre is universally respected and 3) He wasn’t the best at bullpen management, one of his few flaws.

  79. YankeeBaseball November 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 am

    No time to lose. Relief market is slim pickins. Cashmam, without delay, throw a 3yr/15-20mil contract Percival’s way (he was beyond dominating this year). If he doesn’t bite, try 3yr/12-15mil for Kerry Wood (he’s throwing 98mph again!).

    We need in the worst way to nail down that setup role so Joba can be the true starting Ace we need. A dominating ACE is what separates the winners from the losers in the playoffs. Just look at Beckett…

  80. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:30 am

    LathamJoe
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 am
    and one other point:
    How many MLB Front Offices institute predefined “rules” that their Manager must follow in using bullpen arms – like the “Joba Rules”? That gives you some insight into what Yankee Front Office thought of Torre’s bullpen skills.

    _____________________________________________________
    I’m sorry, but, this is a fallacy. Nardi Contreras and Gil Patterson set these guidlines up to include all pitchers with minimal innings, for all managers at all levels. The newspapers hung that tag on them, without bothering to check. The same way when back in 1995, when the headlines read “Clueless Joe”. I wonder how many people actually know why that was printed. It had nothing to do with Torre’s managing skills. It had to do with Torre not realizing what he was getting into by managing for George Steinbrenner. The guy that wrote that, did an article about a month ago, and said he cringed every time somebody uses it in the wrong context from how it was origionally written.

  81. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 11:33 am

    I loved proctor too – There where days when he had NOTHING and still pitched his heart out….

    Torre was great – i think he did overuse pitchers because his bullpen was not deep… By nature – i think all good relievers get overused. Look at the numbers for setup men – they fluctuate tremendously. I think that might be because they are getting overused… Especially in the LESS JUICE era that we are in now…

  82. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:34 am

    Kill-Schill(ing)
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 am
    Mel or Green Beret,

    Fascinating stat about close games, by the way.

    If the Yankees were 10 games under .500 in 1-run and 2-run games over last ten years, where does this stat rank them in the league. Any idea?

    ____________________________________________________
    Over the last ten years, NYY has the best record in 1 and two run games in baseball. This year was their worst and they basically broke even.

  83. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 am

    YankeeBaseball
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 am
    No time to lose. Relief market is slim pickins. Cashmam, without delay, throw a 3yr/15-20mil contract Percival’s way (he was beyond dominating this year). If he doesn’t bite, try 3yr/12-15mil for Kerry Wood (he’s throwing 98mph again!).

    We need in the worst way to nail down that setup role so Joba can be the true starting Ace we need. A dominating ACE is what separates the winners from the losers in the playoffs. Just look at Beckett…

    _______________________________________________________
    Unless there are straight trades or 2 for one trades, and a team has no space on the forty man roster, there won’t be many trades until after the Rule 5 draft. NYY has one space, which most likely is why none of the 5 free agent signings haven’t been announced yet

  84. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 11:41 am

    I wonder if they are waiting for the Mitchel report… Moda is a great example why you should look at the report. Everyone talks about juice and hitting – but juice and middle relief are a great combo (juice speeds up the recovery process)

  85. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

    El Comaduce,

    Guillermo Mota is the Brewer’s problem now. Maybe they feel that beer will mask the juice.

  86. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 11:47 am

    “Like I said, Latham, I learned a long time ago to use people that I trust in crunch time over those that failed to perform after repeated chances to prove themselves”

    I’m with you, Green Beret, learned that lesson many, many years ago… much of it courtesy of the U.S. Army and the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    However, there is also a well-known anxiom “the mind is willing but the body is not”. Most of his players would probably walk through a wall for Joe Torre. Sometimes, however, its seems that Joe failed to realize when they physcially just didn’t have it.

  87. E-ROC November 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 am

    What date is the Rule V draft on?

  88. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 am

    since we are talking bullpenL
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

    great article on how the padres built that bullpen…

  89. Buddy Biancalana November 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 am

    GreenBeret7-

    You have been making excellent points all morning, too bad you were not around on the thread from last night, where it was discussed that Phil Hughes will be 80% of what Johan Santana is in 2008.

    I totally disagree with that assessment. It was also discussed that Hughes for Santana even up would be a bad trade by the Yankees, how that is possible I will never understand.

  90. Stan November 23rd, 2007 at 11:56 am

    The Rule V draft generally takes place as one of the final things on the agenda at the winter meetings in 2 weeks.

  91. Em November 23rd, 2007 at 11:56 am

    The way Torre used relievers never made me too happy. Remember the back-to-back-to-back-to-back homeruns Britton (or someone like that, some rookie) gave up against the Red Sox early in the season?In all seriousness, I’m GLAD Torre is gone.It was frusterating to see Villone pitch to one guy and NEVER use Mo before the 9th. God, when Torre finally used Mo in the 8th I was shocked. Amazed, really.

    As for Jeter. 2009, my friends. And as for CF…I think too boring for Jeter. I think 1B for him. We just need a reliable SS to take over for Jeter.

  92. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 am
    GreenBeret7-

    You have been making excellent points all morning, too bad you were not around on the thread from last night, where it was discussed that Phil Hughes will be 80% of what Johan Santana is in 2008.

    I totally disagree with that assessment. It was also discussed that Hughes for Santana even up would be a bad trade by the Yankees, how that is possible I will never understand.

    ________________________________________________
    Not sure abot Hughes being 80% of Santana this year, but, 70-75% is probable. He pitched well later in the season, and after 4 months off to let his groin and ankle get healed and stronger, you’re going to see what the rage is about. If it was a straight up trade, yeah, I might consider it if Pettitte didn’t come back. I’m just looking at things by the time a long term contract is up. Hughes would then be what Santana’s age is now. The difference being that Hughes would be hitting his prime and Santana would be winding down at 20-25 million a year. The thing is, Santana’s not worth Hughes, Cano, Tabata and another top prospect….not at that money, and, not only would NYY be short a premiere 2nd baseman and two top of the line prospects, but, they would still be a starter short. To me that’s a negative.

  93. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    Em
    November 23rd, 2007 at 11:56 am
    The way Torre used relievers never made me too happy. Remember the back-to-back-to-back-to-back homeruns Britton (or someone like that, some rookie) gave up against the Red Sox early in the season?In all seriousness, I’m GLAD Torre is gone.It was frusterating to see Villone pitch to one guy and NEVER use Mo before the 9th. God, when Torre finally used Mo in the 8th I was shocked. Amazed, really.

    As for Jeter. 2009, my friends. And as for CF…I think too boring for Jeter. I think 1B for him. We just need a reliable SS to take over for Jeter.

    ___________________________________________________
    That was Chase Wright, the starter in that game, who had not allowed a hit up to that point, and those 4 homers came on about the first 10 pitches of the inning. Not much of a warning to get somebody ready, was it?

  94. desti(NY) 2008 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    They’re a funny lot, those middle relievers. In this day of specialization and few complete games from starters, their value to a team can’t be overestimated if they show some decent consistency. Holding a game in check for the closer can make a small lead look big.

  95. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Em
    So, you wanted Torre to use Rivera for more than one inning? Why, he could ruin Rivera’s career or wear him out doing that.
    Rivera’s job is the 9th inning, unless there’s no other recourse.

  96. YankeeBaseball November 23rd, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    If it’s Hughes and a second tier prospect like Clippard for Santana, I’d do it. But I’d want a window to sign Santana to a long term deal before the trade is completed.

    I’d also do Kennedy, Melky and Chase Wright for Santana, but I doubt that would be enough . . .

  97. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Hold on to Joba and Hughes. If you build it, He will come…

  98. El Comaduce November 23rd, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    I just dont want johan going to boston… That would be END OF DAYS…

    The thought of that makes me want to puke in my mouth…

    It would be interesting to see wang as a number 2. Johan, Wang, Hughes/Joba in a short series…

  99. DadinIowa November 23rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    I think it would be a very GREAT move to get Kerry Wood. Saw him in a number of games late this season and he seemed to not only have “stuff”, but also attitude. He might well be the very best replacement for Jobba in the 8th inning. Plus, no loss of draft picks.

  100. Vince November 23rd, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Good teams produce several come-from-behind wins during a season. Good teams win more than the majority of one-run games. Good teams know how to manufacture runs. Good teams know how to put an opponent away by holding a good lead without being un-professional about it.
    Joe Torre lacked in much of those areas in recent seasons with a certain amount of complacency. Joe Girardi’s managerial style will key on those items and he may have stressed it during his interview.

  101. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    “Relief market is slim pickins. Cashmam, without delay, throw a 3yr/15-20mil contract Percival’s way (he was beyond dominating this year). If he doesn’t bite, try 3yr/12-15mil for Kerry Wood (he’s throwing 98mph again!).”

    Yes, the market is slim pickings, so let’s start throwing bad contracts around! Percival and Wood are both HUGE injury risks, so let’s throw 30 million at the two of them for the next three years. That worked GREAT for the Orioles last year.

  102. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    “I think it would be a very GREAT move to get Kerry Wood. ”

    Yeah, for a year. Not for three. Maybe not even for two.

  103. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    Em/Green Beret:
    I remember the game that Chase Wright gave up the 4 homers at Fenway – it was Late April and Boston swept a 3-Game series. I also remember that the Yankees tied and went ahead in that game and Torre used Scott Proctor – for the 3rd consecutive day and the 4th in 5 games – and he got blown out for the loss.

    If I was ever in Cashman’s place, I would be willing to give up Hughes, but definitely not Cano – he’s a future No. 3 Hitter, an all-star 2nd basemen and there are no position players in the Yankee MiLB system to replace him.
    Johan would be the ace that is needed. You can get to the post season with good pitching depth, but you need at least one big-game pitcher to win in the post season.

  104. YankeeBaseball November 23rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Learn to read whozit. I said get ONE of the two, not both. And they’re by far the best available. Percival is not the injury risk you portray. He had Tommy John surgery. The history of pitchers who’ve had Tommy John is good (and even better the second year+ after the surgery). Plus he was very healthy this last year…Wood is certainly a health risk, I admit.

    Who would you get to set up, Villone???

  105. Nick November 23rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    If the Yankees found a suitor (Baltimore ?) for Farnsworth, Kerry Wood could be a viable option as an 8th inning guy but an extensive phyical to prove that he’s overcome his recent shouler issues would be necessary before a final judgement is made.

  106. YankeeBaseball November 23rd, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    Percival is the guy, if possible. His numbers this year were incredible!

  107. Buddy Biancalana November 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    GreenBeret7-

    You really think Hughes could worth up to 75% of Johan? If that is the case, then there is no need to trade for him.

    The Twins would never go for a straight swap of Hughes for Santana.

  108. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    It would drive me nuts when he would just use certain pitchers for one hitter when you know they could have gotten out more hitters. There was a game this season where he used 6 guys to get thru 2 innings (okay maybe not that many, but you’ll remember the game).

  109. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    LathamJoe
    November 23rd, 2007 at 12:33 pm
    Em/Green Beret:
    I remember the game that Chase Wright gave up the 4 homers at Fenway – it was Late April and Boston swept a 3-Game series. I also remember that the Yankees tied and went ahead in that game and Torre used Scott Proctor – for the 3rd consecutive day and the 4th in 5 games – and he got blown out for the loss.

    If I was ever in Cashman’s place, I would be willing to give up Hughes, but definitely not Cano – he’s a future No. 3 Hitter, an all-star 2nd basemen and there are no position players in the Yankee MiLB system to replace him.
    Johan would be the ace that is needed. You can get to the post season with good pitching depth, but you need at least one big-game pitcher to win in the post season.

    __________________________________________________
    Would you have preferred Bruney, Henn or Myers in that spot? Or, perhaps extend Pettitte another inning. Keep in mind that Farnsworth pitched the night before and was unavailable.

  110. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3124303

    Devastating news…

  111. Brian November 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    Cool, Go Isles!

  112. jon November 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Don’t be tricked by Percival’s low ERA and WHIP. He did pitch very well, but was helped out by an absurdly low BABIP and high LOB%. Also (though the credibility of the consistency of HR/FB is in question) he gave up fewer HR than he should have based on the # of fly balls allowed.

    And don’t forget he’d be moving from the NL Central to the AL East. I’d take him, but other stupid teams will throw too much money at him to make him worth it.

  113. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm

    “Percival is not the injury risk you portray. He had Tommy John surgery.”

    No, he didn’t. He had some kind of forearm injury that caused him to retire. Then, after a year off he made a comeback. Yeah, he could be ok. But he’s not fixed like you claim.

  114. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 23rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm

    Mel that is so sad. :(

  115. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 pm
    GreenBeret7-

    You really think Hughes could worth up to 75% of Johan? If that is the case, then there is no need to trade for him.

    The Twins would never go for a straight swap of Hughes for Santana.

    _________________________________________________
    actually, I do. If Hughes is healthy, he should easily win 14-15 games this coming year. I watched him pitch in Tampa in 2006 and the word “impressive” was made for him. Keep in mind that he’s usually about 2 years younger than the guys he was playing against. Ian Kennedy is going to be something else. Think of Greg Maddux with stuff. A solid 90-91 MPH fastball and great curve, and that control. He will make Maddux’s control look like Brian Bruney. If they pitch all year and stay healthy, all three should win 13-15 games, even with reduced innings. By 2009, NYY will have a rotation to match anybody’s.

  116. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    mel
    November 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3124303

    Devastating news…

    _________________________________________________________
    That’s really a pity.
    I had been hoping NYY would take a chance on him for lefty relief and spot starting, to replace Pettitte.

  117. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    Very sad news about Joe Kennedy. Not simply because of his status as a MLB player, but the fact that he has passed at such a young age. As baseball fans, we tend to take such tragedies much more personally since we feel we “know” the individual through media exposure and watching them work at their craft. My condolences to his family and the friends who knew him well.

  118. Buddy Biancalana November 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    GreenBeret7-

    So maybe the Yanks are just involved to drive his price up or down, maybe the Twins end up getting a lot less than they expect. The extension part will be a deal breaker for every team. Johan would be smart to wait until he hits FA b/c he is worth so much more than Zito.

  119. mel November 23rd, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    A lot of people think that Hughes is overrated, especially since Joba was gangbusters.

    However, a lot of people are looking at his 2006 and are now underrating Hughes. Injury made Hughes, who was a groundball pitcher at every level and pre-injury in the majors, into a flyball pitcher. Towards the end of the year he was working his way back to being a groundball pitcher.

    Hughes’ history has shown that it takes him a little while to adjust to each level before he dominates. That means he’s smart and able to adjust. We must remember that Hughes is young, has no college game experience, and was handled with kid gloves throughout his professional career.

    He was groomed to be a front-end pitcher and even though it looks like Joba edges him out right now, that doesn’t mean that Hughes won’t be a very good pitcher for a very long time for the Yankees. Hughes is not going to Minnesota.

  120. Doug November 23rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Our prayers go out to the Kennedy family

  121. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 23rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
    GreenBeret7-

    So maybe the Yanks are just involved to drive his price up or down, maybe the Twins end up getting a lot less than they expect. The extension part will be a deal breaker for every team. Johan would be smart to wait until he hits FA b/c he is worth so much more than Zito.

    ____________________________________________________
    Not sure they were trying to drive the price up, but, whatever it’s going to be, it could wreck a farm system for a couple of years. I’d rather take my chances this year, and take a stab next year, when the only cost is a draft pick and money. If the best of the position players were ready in ’08, maybe you trade a guy like Cano in the deal, as long as it didn’t involve Hughes, Kennedy, Chamberlain, Tabata and Jackson. Those kids will be more important to NYY than losing a group of them for Santana. I don’t think He’ll be able to make up the difference of losing the pitcher and Cano.

  122. Buddy Biancalana November 23rd, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    I see the Twins working on keeping him, b/c it looks they can’t afford to keep Morneau as well as Santana. I also think the Mets will end up getting him, the Twins need someone to overpay & I think Minaya will bite.

  123. GreenBeret7 November 23rd, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    Buddy Biancalana
    November 23rd, 2007 at 1:16 pm
    I see the Twins working on keeping him, b/c it looks they can’t afford to keep Morneau as well as Santana. I also think the Mets will end up getting him, the Twins need someone to overpay & I think Minaya will bite.

    ______________________________________________________
    Could be, but, Santana should be able to get 20-23 million a year over 7 years, and possibly 25 mil a year on the open market.

  124. dontfirecash November 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    RIP Joe Kennedy

  125. Buddy Biancalana November 23rd, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Rosenthal is reporting that Kennedy may have died from either a heart attack or a brain aneurysm.

  126. BBFan November 23rd, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    “Perhaps if Cashman had provided Torre’s teams with more than two dependable starters in each of the last 4 years or more than two dependable relief pitchers in the last six years, pitchers like Gordon, Proctor and Vizacaino wouldn’t have been “overworked”.”

    Don’t count on it.
    Torre would have done the same to them irresepctive of what… Remember how many times he overused Viz in games where Yanks were leading by a wide margin.

  127. YankeeJosh November 23rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    According to WFAN Heyman is reporting that Santana is likely to get moved by the end of the winter meetings.

    I only do the deal if the big 3 pitchers aren’t involved. Hughes and Chamberlain look to be very good pitchers who are younger and cheaper than Santana. If the trade is something like Cano, Melky, Horne and/or Tabata for Santana, I’d do it. Cano has talent but his poor plate discipline and lack of quality at bats makes him expendable imo.

  128. Jim in Norwich November 23rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Pete, say hey to Deano for me. Enjoy the game. Love the blog.

  129. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    “Cano has talent but his poor plate discipline and lack of quality at bats makes him expendable imo.”

    Wow. You’re insane. Expendable? You realize that the Yanks have NO infield prospects above A ball? He doubled his walks from 06 to 07.

  130. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    “Would you have preferred Bruney, Henn or Myers in that spot? Or, perhaps extend Pettitte another inning. Keep in mind that Farnsworth pitched the night before and was unavailable”
    ____________________________________________________________No probably not GreenBeret. But then, again, I probably wouldn’t have used Proctor the night before, down by 3 runs, so that he would have been in better pitching condition, instead throwing in 3 straight ballgames.

  131. G. Love November 23rd, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    I also have a feeling that Los Mets are going to get Johan.

    I think Omar is going to trade almost every young player in the organization for him in some ridiculous deal.

    He’ll go further than the Yankees and Red Sox will go out of desperation.

    Something like Milledge, Carlo Gomez, Pelfrey, Humber and that Fernando Martinez kid for Johan.

    Imagine getting an entire young talented OF and 2/5 of a starting rotation for one player.

    If he goes off the deep end like that, I don’t know how the Twins don’t bite.

    I know a lot of you would say he wouldn’t do that, but he is under immense pressure here and if the team stumbles again next season he could be swept out of a job.

    He can justify overpaying because it’s for Johan.

    I think when it comes down to it, the Red Sox will be the first to bail on Johan as the price goes up, the Yankees will try to hang in there and Omar will go “all in” and win the hand.

    And RIP to Joe Kennedy. I was hoping the Yanks signed him for the pen next season after seeing him handle the Yanks as a Toronto reliever this year. It’s a shame.

  132. yanks61 November 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    I’m glad to see that more and more people are coming around to believing that keeping the ‘kiddie korps’ together for 2008 and beyond is the way to go. Like GreenBeret7, I think it’s worth the Yanks taking their chances in 2008 with what we’ve got (plus Andy, if possible) and building towards 2009. From everything I’ve read, in practically every corner of the baseball writing world, these guys are looked at as the real deal. In any case, it’s worth checking them out for a year to see what they have. They’re young, cheap and could be around for years – perhaps a budding Smoltz, Maddox, Glavine starting staff that could dominate for years to come. The guys following behind them ‘ain’t’ too shabby either.

  133. Joe from Long Island November 23rd, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    G.Love – good post.

    I have a similar opinion about Omar and his farm system. Granted, he’s only been there a few years, and I don’t follow the Mets as I do the Yankees, but I just get the impression that he doesn’t put much effort into growing the kids.

    Look at how he wound up with their AAA team being in New Orleans, and the Pacific Coast League. NO is still raveged by those storms, the competitive level in the PCL is inferior to the Intl. League, and the travel to the West Coast is prohibitive. Add into it the cost of getting call-ups to NY, and the travel delays in doing so, and it just seems like one big negative.

    So, if Omar is under pressure, which he appears to be, then going to the FA market for Santana and whatever pieces he needs instead of his MiL system appears in the cards.

    Which might be a good thing for the Yankees, because if the Mets do not sign him to a contract (I think the Wilpons are still choking on Beltran’s and Pedro’s deals) Cash can get him for money (and a draft pick) alone.

  134. RosterRooster November 23rd, 2007 at 2:45 pm

    Love the Glengary Glenross refrence Pete. That movie has the best cast ever assembled onscreen.

  135. DadinIowa November 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    Nothing wrong with just keeping the kids. If they don’t pan out, there are more kids on the farm who might be ready. Why disrupt a winning (playoff) team that can only improve as the kids get experience?

    Hopefully we can Andy back, but even if we don’t, we’ll be a very, very good team. By October, Jobba, Pranchise, Wang and Kennedy will make a very imposing playoff roster.

    Keep the faith in the kids. Next year we will have a LOT more roster flexibility.

  136. Little Englander November 23rd, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    I’m very much used to Football (soccer) transfers rather than the trade system in American sports. Can clubs only offer players? Is cold hard cash ever included?

  137. Virgin Islands November 23rd, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Wang wasn’t so imposing in the 2007 playoffs. Not sure you can make that assumption.

  138. UtilityMan November 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    R.I.P.
    Joe Kennedy

  139. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    “Wang wasn’t so imposing in the 2007 playoffs. Not sure you can make that assumption.”

    Yes, let’s make our assumption based on two games in one series.

    “Can clubs only offer players? Is cold hard cash ever included?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.....ansactions

  140. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pm

    You can’t make a trade of only cash, at least not for major league players (minor league players, I think you can) but cash can change hands as part of the transaction.

  141. Virgin Islands November 23rd, 2007 at 2:59 pm

    Whozat,
    Why would you assume he WOULDN’T stink it up again? My point was it is not a given he will be imposing in the playoffs. He is not Beckett.

  142. UtilityMan November 23rd, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    BULLPEN

    M.Rivera
    L.Vizcaino
    D.Riske
    D.Marte
    R.Ohlendorf(Kartens)
    K.Wood
    R.Mahay or Ron Villone(cheaper)

  143. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    I also believe in the youth direction that Cashman has converted to within the Yankee Organization. That said, I think they have to make a pitch for Santana with perhaps Hughes and either Jackson or Tabata and another lower level pitching prospect. There is a wealth of pitching prospects in their MiLB organization – but they are all righthanded.

  144. raymagnetic November 23rd, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    I’m glad to see that more and more people are coming around to believing that keeping the ‘kiddie korps’ together for 2008 and beyond is the way to go.

    You do realize that the whatever the consensus of bloggers in this forum thinks doesn’t actually matter right?

  145. raymagnetic November 23rd, 2007 at 3:18 pm

    Whozat,
    Why would you assume he WOULDN’T stink it up again? My point was it is not a given he will be imposing in the playoffs. He is not Beckett.

    No he’s not Beckett, however in 2005 against the Angels he did pitch 6.2 IP’s and gave up 1 run. He did lose this game however.

    In 2006 he pitched another 6.2IP’s and gave up 3 runs. He happened to win this game however.

    Not Beckettesque I suppose but if he pitches like this next year I believe the Yankees would be more than thrilled.

  146. JDnotDrew November 23rd, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    Hughes has won just as many post-season games as Johan in less tries. Keep Hughes, look to the future AKA next year and beyond.

  147. Nick November 23rd, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Utility man -

    The Yankees don’t do things on the cheap. Mahay over Villone in a landslide.

  148. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 23rd, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Hey, did you guys all hear about Joe Kennedy?

  149. Wally November 23rd, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    I’ll believe David Letterman’s thoughts on the Yankees before believing what Jon Heyman writes.

  150. Sherri November 23rd, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    Rebecca – Someone posted that he has passed away, but we haven’t heard the cause of death yet.

  151. LathamJoe November 23rd, 2007 at 3:49 pm

    Yes, Rebecca. We were discussing the Joe Kennedy tragedy around 1:00 PM on this thread.

  152. Rex November 23rd, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    Jon :

    “Boston Red Sox” or “Red Sox Nation amounts to an anagram for “Silly College Cowtown”, and nothing more.

  153. JDnotDrew November 23rd, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    2 many walks for Mahay and Villone.

  154. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 23rd, 2007 at 3:53 pm

    Ok. I’ve been losing misrably at Mario Party (I actually lost a game with my brother and his friend and had ZERO coins!!!) so I haven’t been follosing the thread.

    Terrible news, my thoughts go out to his family and friends.

  155. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    “The Yankees don’t do things on the cheap.”

    But do they do things on the stupid? Someone may very well offer Mahay a three or four year deal. The Yanks shouldn’t go beyond two.

    Now Riske…the yanks should be going pretty hard after him. He’s 30, so a four year deal would look ok. And he’s had solid success in the AL for several years now.

  156. BBFan November 23rd, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    I wanted Santans earlier, but I am not so sure any more.
    He was not his dominating self this year and in fact Sabathia beat him three times.

    I rather see we stand pat if Pettite comes back or go after Baltimore’s Cabrera (left hander) for lesser price.

    Also, I do not think Yanks are fully out of Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes. If Santana stays put with Twins and Pettite comes back, Yanks my still consider getting Miguel to play first base. Imagine the lineup with A-Rod and Miguel back to back and surrounded by Abrue, Posada, Matusui…… With Angels signing Hunter and Dodgers balking at Miami’s price, Yanks may be back in the hunt for Miguel.

  157. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    Like Hideki Okajima last yr, Cashman seems to have completely ignored a guy by the name of Masahide Kobayashi, a closer out of japan who has put up some excellent numbers the past couple of yrs and is one of the all time save leaders in japan. He was a free agent this yr and was quickly signed by the indians to a real bargain of 2 yrs and 6.25 million garaunteed. With extremely mediocre relief like Linebrink who had an abysmal yr in the NL going for HUGE deals, why cant cash focus his attention on converting some of the quality pitching talent coming out of japan into eighth inning setup guys? Thas the problem with cash, he has tons of money and goes after all the obvious deals that anyone who knows anything about baseball would go after but he never thinks outside the box. With the amount he is payed for his services, cash really needs to start making trades and signings based on intelligence and critical thinking rather than just following the crowd and throwing out the millions that the steinbrenner family lets him play with each off season. Instead of looking at troy percival, matt herges, latroy hawkins, kerry wood and ron mahay, cash should be signing a quality starter out of japan to take over for farnsy or the viz or maybe trading some of our pitching talent in the minors for a solid setup guy.

  158. BBFan November 23rd, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    I also think that if there are six starters, which wil be the case if Pettitte comes back, to limit the innings, Joba will start the season in the bullpen and then move in to the roration by the middle of the season. By that time some of the kids like Sanchez may be ready for the bullpen duty and Russ Ohlendarf will become more reliable out of BP.

  159. Jaewon November 23rd, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    When a MLB pitcher at the age of 28 dies, you feel like an idiot for arguing about a team’s fist baseman or starting rotation. Bless him and his family.

    RIP Joe

  160. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    “completely ignored a guy by the name of Masahide Kobayashi, a closer out of japan who has put up some excellent numbers the past couple of yrs and is one of the all time save leaders in japan.”

    Maybe his talent evaluators disagreed with the Indians guys…don’t you think MAYBE he knows what he’s doing?

    Hillman (manager for the Royals now) wanted Kurota over Kobayashi. Maybe Kobayashi just isn’t all that.

  161. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    We need to sign someone who can pitch in the eighth inning. We cant expect one of the kids to exel and take over the eighth inning duties- it is one of the most important jobs in winning the game (holding the lead in the eighth inning.) And we need someone who used to be a closer and has the experience and talent to do it on a daily basis. I dont trust edwar ramirez, ross ohlendorf, jose veras and certainly not humberto sanchez with this job. They can pitch in the sixth or seventh inning but we need a former closer for that eighth inning position like tom gordon did for us – the yrs he was on the team were the yrs we had the most solid bullpen! It was no coincidence.

  162. raymagnetic November 23rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Like Hideki Okajima last yr, Cashman seems to have completely ignored a guy by the name of Masahide Kobayashi, a closer out of japan who has put up some excellent numbers the past couple of yrs and is one of the all time save leaders in japan.

    Why is it always assumed that Cashman is sitting on his hands and doing nothing when another team signs a player. Perhaps Cashman did make an offer to this guy and Kobayashi simply did not want to play for the Yankees.

    I can’t understand for the life of me why people assume everyone wants to play for the Yankees also assume that Cashman is busy playing video games instead of working during the offseason.

  163. Nick November 23rd, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Mahay does in fact get lefthanded hitters out, something Myers et al failed to do. Like Casey Stengel was fond of saying, “You can look it up”.
    Ahhhh…..the days of Graeme Lloyd and Mike Stanton.

  164. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    cashman passed on Hideki Okajima, Justin Spiers and multiple other very talented setup men last yr when we desparately needed bullpen help – he then acquired vizcaino and called it a day. Oh yea and those same evaluators along with cashman thought that kei igawa was worth a 50 million dollar investment. Truthfully, when it comes to pitching and particularly, THE PEN – The answer is no, I dont think cashman knows what the heck he is doing. The royals passed on Kobayashi? Is that supposed to mean something? Look at the indians bullpen last yr – it was one of the best in the league. Look at their younger, homegrown talent. I dont really think the royals know exactly what they r doing – they payed a truckload of money to gil meche and wanted to give torri hunter a four or five yr deal. The Indians were one of the best teams in all of baseball last yr and the majority of their team was under the age of 30 and homegrown. I think the indians are much better evaluators of talent than the royals.

  165. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    kobayashi was offered two yrs and six million garaunteed and took it! Cash could have offered him double that and the chance to win a championship and play with the best players in the world in the best city in the world. I find it hard than someone coming over from japan would pass up the chance of playing with the yanks and making more money to play with the indians and make less but hey, thas just me. Maybe your right – cash offered him more and he didnt want to be a yankee. But i heard no rumors or anything about the yanks negotiating with him which makes me think cash completely overlooked him. I dont think its that bold of an assumption and cash did the same thing last yr with okajima. Cash always talks about improving the pen and does everything within his power to completely ignore the pen until the very last months of the off season when it should be addressed as much if not more than any other weakness within the organization.

  166. ThatWasMe November 23rd, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    The Hunter signing after the hugh contract Mathews received last season makes little sense. I wonder if there is some kind of steroid news to come about Mathews from Mitchell, coupled with the info released last Feb. by the Albany N.Y. DA, David Soares which Mathews has denied. If Mathews was found to have used after the Banned Substance list was posted during 2005, his contract by the Angels could be voided. As I understand abuse before the list was released in 2005, is grandfathered in and amounts to slap on the wrist.

  167. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Kuroda has better seasons the last two but before that kobayashi looked significantly better and is used to the pen. Kuroda is prolly going to be alot more money as well. But if cash signs Kuroda to be t he setup man i wouldnt mind that.

  168. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    Hunter making over 18 million per yr is a joke. He is an average player and is now one of the highest payed players in baseball. I dunno wat the angels are thinking. And if they plan on trading for cabrera, how can they afford to pay him when they need to sign him to a long-term deal? Not to mention the fact that vlad and lackey are both free agents next yr and will demand gigantic contracts.

  169. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    “cashman passed on Hideki Okajima”

    Everyone passed on him. The Sox lucked out. No one thought he’d be anything.

    “Justin Spiers”

    You wanted to give a four year deal to a 32 year old reliever?

    Or maybe all those guys the O’s signed? How’d that work out for them?

    As for the Royals thing…Their new manager was over there, playing in that league for five years. Yeah, I trust his judgement over the Indians japanese scouts.

    And what does their young relief staff have to do with their ability to scout 30-something relievers in Japan?

  170. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Sorry, the Royals are getting a guy named Yabuta, not Kuroda. Kuroda’s looked better than Kobayashi for a few years, and so what if he costs more? As long as he doesn’t ask for more than two years….

  171. Vader November 23rd, 2007 at 4:46 pm

    Rex, sounds right to me.

  172. Carmine November 23rd, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Sorry to bring it back, but I wasn’t around earlier. Just wanted to say RIP Joe Kennedy and condolences to his family.

    It might seem trivial of me to post that on a Yankee forum, but I just feel that when a player like him passes(one who was not a superstar and in the limelight), I like to pay my respects on a big forum to show that a passing like his is no less saddening or important than if a big name player passed on.

  173. Dave November 23rd, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    The Indians young guys were scouted at some point by the indians – I think the indians are good evaluators of talent considering their entire team is composed primarily of homegrown players and look how far those guys took them. I dont see what is so difficult to understand about that. And is 30 supposed to be old? There isnt much of a difference between scouting college prospects and 28 yr old japanese prospects i dont believe. And if 30 is old, the majority of the yanks are ancient.
    Spiers was fantastic last yr for the angels as he was for the blue jays. He is one of the best relief pitchers in the sport. Yes Id much rather five a four yr deal to a spiers (the best setup man in the game) than scott linebrink who cant even pitch in relief in the NL or Latroy hawkins or Ron Mahay. BTW Jame walker did extremely well for the orioles – he was ten times better than any of our relievers. Bradford did alright and he only made 3 million. Baez didnt work out but guess what? None of cashmans pitching signings have worked out pretty much in seven yrs.

    And everyone says the sox lucked out on okajima – but i heard ppl told cash to look into signing okajima cuz he had nasty stuff. I read that even matsui told cashman to look into okajima and he passsed. What is so harmful about learning from ones mistakes and giving kabawishi 2 yrs at 10 million – that is 1/5th what we payed for igawa so if he is a bust, he will be 1/5th the bust igawa is going to be.

  174. whozat November 23rd, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    “Spiers was fantastic last yr for the angels as he was for the blue jays. He is one of the best relief pitchers in the sport. Yes Id much rather five a four yr deal to a spiers (the best setup man in the game) than scott linebrink who cant even pitch in relief in the NL”

    And he will have at least one year on that deal where he sucks. A four year deal for a 32 year old reliever is INSANE. Just because lots of teams are doing it nowadays doesn’t make it wise.

    “The Indians young guys were scouted at some point by the indians – I think the indians are good evaluators of talent considering their entire team is composed primarily of homegrown players and look how far those guys took them.”

    And the Yanks have gone to the playoffs 12 years straight. How are they NOT a success story?

    Also,..who’s homegrown? Sabathia, Carmona, and the Raphaels? Wow, that’s a lot of pitchers.

  175. Doreen November 23rd, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    Pete, I was amused to hear about your nephew and Thomas the Tank Engine. My girls are now much older, but when they were little ones, they also loved to watch Thomas the Tank and I was always amused because at that time, Mr. Conductor (the narrator) was either Ringo Starr or George Carlin. I thought it was inspired to choose people you wouldn’t normally think of doing children’s entertainment. It lent an air of quirkiness to the whole thing that I thought was refreshing. It was also great as an adult to see Carlin and Starr really doing a great job in this gig. I bet Alec Baldwin brings the same kind of quirky amusement (for the grownups who are watching along).

    I haven’t read any posts yet today, because my daugher and I spent the day shopping. We had a great day! Saw a young tweenage girl with a Rudolph the Reindeer from Build-A-Bear dressed in a NY Yankees uniform. Very cute.

    Also, I noticed quite a few Red Sox items in the sports-related stores in our mall. I find that rather odd considering I live in central New Jersey. Can’t imagine the market for those things being all that great.

    Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving Holiday. Now, I will go back and dutifully browse through.

  176. bskul November 23rd, 2007 at 9:11 pm

    maybe cashmoron thinks sean henn or brian bruney can fit the portfolio of the setup man.

  177. Dave November 24th, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    WHOZAT
    How about grady sizemore, victor martinez,josh barfield, and ryan garko to go along with sabathia, carmona, the two rafeals and jeremy sowers. Alot of homegorwn pitching talent and alot of homegrown hitting talent. Yea the yanks have gone to the playoffs 12 yrs and counting but not really on the backs of their homegrown talent besides Mo, jeter, po and a few yrs of petite. Im just saying cleveland is fantastic evaluators of talent whether they be young or old – they know who to trade when they are worthless and they know who to keep when they are going to be superstars like carmona, sabathia, sizemore and martinez.

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