Santana stokes the hot stove
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- November
- 24
Joe Christensen of the Star Tribune in Minneapolis has a good breakdown of the Johan Santana situation in his blog.
Word around the industry is that the Twins offered Santana four years and $80 million. That was refused. But a contract offer made in mid-November is just a starting point. The Twins are under no pressure to trade Santana now.
If he is traded, Santana would probably seek a deal worth six years and $150 million – yes, $25 million a year. If he doesn’t get it, he can refuse the deal (he has a complete no-trade clause) and simply become a free agent after the 2008 season.
Does that sound outrageous? If Mariano Rivera is worth $15 million a year and Barry Zito $18 million, Santana is worth at least $20 and should ask for $25.
Where do the Yankees fit in all this? The Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers have the prospects to trade and payroll flexibility to make a deal for Santana. I don’t think the Mets have the chips. Mike Pelfrey and/or Phil Humber aren’t good enough.
Santana, I believe, would approve a trade to the Yankees. I covered the game when he faced the Yankees on July 4 and Santana said afterward how much he enjoyed pitching in New York. Even manager Ron Gardenhire commented on it. “I hate to say it, but he loves it here,” Gardenhire said. “He loves the big stage, the big stadium.”
Santana is 2-0 with a 1.17 ERA in four career games at Yankee Stadium.
Santana’s greatness cannot be denied. But do the Yankees want two players taking up $50 million in payoll?
For now, the Twins are in a position of strength. They have Santana for another year and can afford to wait for a great deal to come their way. If Brian Cashman wants to act now, it could cost him dearly.
Would Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Alan Horne get it done? It all depends what the Red Sox and Dodgers offer up. I know one thing: This will be The Story at the Winter Meetings.
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on Saturday, November 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
{groan} I cannot take it…
Great questions, Pete. Does Hank want to devote $50M payroll (and resulting luxury tax) for only two players, great though they may be? How would that affect Cash’s ability to get mid-season deals done down the road? Does Cash gut his farm system and young, talented and inexpensive pitching staff? Say goodbye to your trading chips for any role players you might need at the next trading deadline.
There are lots of ramifications here to the one seemingly simple question of “Do we acquire Santana?” Because, as we’ve seen firsthand, getting the “best —” doesn’t guarantee a WS win.
I think the Yanks should stand pat.
It is not worth trading at all so mnay young guys.
Wait for him to become a free agent.
He knows new Yankee stadium opens next year and if he signs with Yanks, who will pay the most, and he succeeds in getting the first WS in the new stadium he will go down in the history an important part of that team.
And the countdown starts. There’s 9 days until the winter meetings begin in Nashville, Tenn.
I would so much rather trade Hughes than Kennedy. I think keeping Melky is important though. Youngster. . . finally the starting CF. . . he could be something special Melky. I think a lot of people think he’s nothing, but I think he’s gonna have a breakout year.
Yanks aren’t trading Hughes, Joba or Cano. So Ian Kennedy and Melky and stuff will probably be the offer. He’ll probably end up in LA.
If Santana moves, I’d put less than a 10% chance he hits free agency. So don’t assume that if the Yankees don’t trade for him, they can easily pick him up in free agency–any team who trades for Santana won’t give him that chance.
Since teams know what he was asking for from the Twins, any team that deals for Santana is conscious of the price it would take to lock him up, and will probably meet it. And if a team is parting with several high-level prospects, which is the price tag the Twins are likely to put on him, you can bet your bottom dollar that team is going to do everything in its power to ensure it’s not getting a one-year rental.
Anyone who thinks that we should wait until Santana reaches FA is being blind to the whole situation. If Santana doesn’t like it there anymore he won’t want to pitch another whole season there and plenty of teams are going to be lining up with offers to get him. If Minnesota can’t get an extension they will trade him.
Great players like that almost never make it to free angency.
so what if plenty of teams line up with offers for him?
I would pass and then call Oakland
If he is traded, Santana would probably seek a deal worth six years and $150 million – yes, $25 million a year.
_________________________________________________________
Just want to say if Santana gets that then I don’t want to hear any more complaining about Alex and his salary, at least A-Rod is expect to play (and thus have an impact in more than 1/5 of the teams games.
The team with the best offer will get him. The Twins know they’re better off with multiple top prospects than having Santana for one more year when they have a very slim chance of getting to the post season.
I used to think the Yankees could just wait until he hits FA to get him, but now it seems like that would be too risky. I would put any one on the table except Chamberlain. It may take a package including Cano and Hughes, but I would do that. The Yankees desperately need strong starting pitching (as well as middle relief help), and there are zero strong arms available on the market.
I hate, hate, hate to react to other teams, but if the Red Sox got Santana without having to deal Ellsbury, their rotation would be superb. The Yankees are in need of a guy like Santana or Bedard, and I expect them to push hard to get one of them. They know what their needs are.
In terms of the bullpen, has anyone heard anything on that front? Obviously, the Yankees can’t go into next season without overhauling the pen. Pete, any news on this front? One name I think would be a good fit, and he would come cheap, would be David Riske.
Word is Santana wants 7 years for $140M. Quite a bargain I think.
The problem with your comparisons is that Rivera is not worth $15M a year, and Zito is not worth $18M.
But I would say that Zambrano is worth $18M or close to it and Santana is significantly better.
$25M is not at all unreasonable.
Keep in mind that Santana and his agent can nix any deal they don’t feel comfortable with regardless of how happy the Twins may be with the players offered.
25 million for a guy who only plays once every five days? Geesh, he makes Arod look like a bargain. I wouldn’t mind having Santana, of course but I hope the Yankees don’t do anything stuipid and give up too much in a bidding war with Boston. Is he worth it? I don’t know. Arod atleast plays everyday.
Santana is amazing, but lets not go crazy here. With all the hype going on right now, how could Santana not want to hear what all these teams wil have to say in free agency next year. There is of course the risk of injury, but that is always there, and i think that Johan will undoubtedly want to hear from the yankees in free agancy, and we will have a great oopurtunity to sign him then. Id rather not trade all these young players for a guy we can get just 1 year from now. Imagine a rotation of Johan, Wang, Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy to open the new stadium with.
“I hate, hate, hate to react to other teams, but if the Red Sox got Santana without having to deal Ellsbury, their rotation would be superb.”
Don’t you mean if they could land Santana without dealing Buchholz, their rotation would be superb?
Sorry, I posted this on the wrong thread.
yanks61
November 24th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Here’s another key point to this discussion; where would Santana most like to go?!
I’ve just read that when he pitched in the Stadium on July 4, he was just tickled to death to be there. Even Gardenhire actually said that ‘unfortunately Santana loves this big stage.’
As everyone’s been saying, he might very well say to the Twins, ‘â€this is where I want to go. See what kind of deal you can get and let me talk to them.†If he’s really that enamoured with pitching in Yankee Stadium (or Yankee Stadium II), on the big New York stage, then it will just behoove the Twins to find a way to make that happen, or Santana walks away a FA at the end of 2008 and the Twins get nada. In that case, the Yankees can make a ’sane’ deal rather than join a mad frenzy of bidding in young players.
Again, I think Matt’s got it right, that he and Greenberg know he can make a killing as a FA, but if a team he already wants to go should make him that offer he expects right up front, then he needn’t wait. Lathom Joe, you make an excellent point, but we do have to remember that pro atheletes at Santana’s skill level and level of accomplishment are understandably quite ‘full of themselves’ and probably not very afraid of the risk, though who knows; ‘a bird in the hand…’
Thanks Peter for this nice post you deserving a raise! (there’s a time for critic and a time for thanking).
Are you serious? You would really rather have Kennedy than Hghes? What has Kennedy shown that Phil Hughes hasn’t? Hughes was the Yankees best pitcher in September and best starter outside of Pettitte in the post-season. He was widely regarded as the top pitching prospect in all of baseball, and pitched extremely well at less than 100%…
He was still recovering and strengthening from the hamstring and ankle injuries all season. Yes, Kennedy is good, but he does not have the overpowering stuff like Hughes
“Does Cash gut his farm system and young, talented and inexpensive pitching staff”
Losing Hughes and Horne may sting, but it hardly “guts” Cashman’s farm system. The Yankees’ strength is still in their righthand arms – Chamberlain,Sanchez, Kennedy, Brackman, McCallister,McCutcheon, Marquez and others.
Dan: My accident completely. I completely meant to say the opposite. I would much rather KEEP Hughes than Kennedy. No doubt. Thanks for catching that, because I’m not THAT much of an idiot. Hughes=beast
Whatever it costs, the Yanks have to do it. Cobble up an offer. The alternative is a Boston 1-2 punch of Santana and Beckett, and that’s the stuff of nightmares!
Johan will be great the next few years no doubt.
Granted the new stadium will finance just about anything.
But…
Do you really, really, really want years 5-7 @ $20M or years 5-6 at $25M? AND give up Cano and 2-3 great prospects?
The team that he wants to go to will get him. That’s what no trade clauses are all about.
Definitely not Cano, Jim. No one is an advocate of trading our future No. 3 hitter. There is no one currently in the MiLB system to replace a talent like Cano.
The proposed trade is Hughes, Horne and Melky. Its excellent talent, but affordable for an ace like Johan.
Funny how every big name player, or at least most of them with contacts dwindling down seem to say how much they love NY. I remember the same thing was said about Zito last year.
Riddle me this; if you were a big name free agent to be, woouldn’t you say that just to put either NY team into the bidding war to drive up the price??
Hang on to the young studs. And dealing Hughes would be a mistake. Give him time to be a healthy big leaguer. Look at how he handled game 3 against Cleveland.
I’m not worried about the Red Sox getting Santana. Like the Yanks, they would have to give up a ton of young talent the likes of Pedroia/Ellsbury and Bucholtz to get Santana and they would be insane to make that deal.
Secondly, like any pitcher the Yanks have faced so often over the years, they would start hitting Santana eventually if he ended up with the Red Sox.
For the exception of Roy Halladay, the Yanks have always knocked around pitchers they see often. They’ve knocked around Beckett, Schilling and owned Pedro over the years.
The Yanks should pass on Santana. It’s not worth giving up that much young talent for a guy who will be a free agent a year from now.
Santana might get $25 million per in free agency. As a trade with extension he isn’t going to hit 25 million per because the cost of the trade has to factor into the contract. If his agent wants to mazimize his clients earning potential with no thought to doing what’s best for the Twins, they will let them explore trade options but be careful what they would agree to.
If I remember correctly, not many on this Blog were advocates of signing Zito to an ex pensive long term contract with his 88 mph stuff and miserable W-L record against the AL East powers.
Just say no to trading Hughes.
Santana
Wang
Pettite
Chamberlain
Kennedy
I would LOVE that.
Yanks have to bite the bullet if it costs Hughes, Melky, Horne & A-Jack.
Someone’s advocating signing Zito?
Pete -
If the deal is Hughes, Cabrera, and Alan Horne I would do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But I seriously doubt that will be enough.
Based on what it seems like the Twins will want (Cano, Hughes for openers) I would wait and see whether or not the Twins become desperate at the deadline. If not, so be it.
Shane,
I respectfully disagree.
Austin Jackson is highly touted and should be ML ready by 2009. He is also a CF. If we give away Melky AND Jackson, who plays CF? Andruw Jones? Too expensive and has seen better days.
I am not opposed to moving Hughes, Melky, and Horne. Four players is too much unless you’re talking about Eric Duncan or someone lesser.
Sure the Twins will want a big package, but the Yankees have to draw the line somewhere, just as Boston, Anaheim, the Mets, etc. will have to draw the line.
I bet they hold on to Santana until the trade deadline to see if they can come up with an extension that is formidable. At that point, they will assess there ability to compete in 2008 and either keep him for the draft picks and/or try to win a World Series with him (which is doubtful).
Jake,
Valid points.
I like Brett Gardner and maybe the Twins do as well.
Yanks need to get an ace because the starting staff scares nobody but Yankee fans.
Consider this –
Let’s say the Yankees traded a package of Hughes, Horne, and Cabrera for Santana.
Now suppose Santana gets injured or cannot make the transition to playing in NY like a few other hyped names in the past(i.e. Kevin Brown, Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano just to name a few, even if they aren’t ENTIRELY on the same level as Santana). That’s $25M a year that is at the very least at risk, if not thrown away depending on the injury and recovery. Then if he can’t recover to be the pitcher he was before, you’re also more than likely locked into a long-term contract if he has a NTC. You’ve also given up three quality players that you can’t simply take back no matter what kind of magic wand you wave.
On the flip side, any of those three could get injured as well – but they’re not going to be costing you that kind of salad each year (not for a couple of years yet anyway, in the case of Hughes and Horne). Furthermore, you’re not giving up anything in order to have your own home-bred players on your roster.
Also, Santana’s numbers declined last year and he needs to show that it was an aberration before anybody commits to a fat long-term contract. Essentially, 2007 was a contract year for Johan because everybody has pretty much assumed he will get traded and not hit the 2008 FA market. Not exactly a great year of stats for a “contract year”. Not horrible by any means, and better than most players – but still not what I would expect from the Santana we’ve all come to now.
Which brings me to my next point – age. Sanatana will be 29 when the season starts. While that’s not exactly old or past his prime, it’s a lot closer to it than the players NY would have to consider giving up. Hughes will still be a baby at 21 when the season starts. Melky will be 23. Horne will be 25, which is getting up there if the guy is going to have a decent MLB career before he hits his prime. In the end though, you are giving up a lot of youth in return for a guy that is creeping up on what could be his last few dominant years.
I can’t imagine why anyone would want to trade Phil Hughes for anyone. He’s been the crown jewel of our farm system that was highly anticipated and threw a no-hitter in one of his first MLB games until the hamstring set him back. His numbers weren’t great when he came back, because he was rushed back into the rotation out of need. Once he got back in the groove, we saw how he did in the end of the season and in the playoffs. The emergence of Joba and Kennedy kind of took the limelight away and made everyone forget about Phil for a while. Even if Joba ends up being a better pitcher, that doesn’t automatically turn Phil into crap, you know? I think Phil could have a scary good 2008, personally.
Anyway, I don’t do the deal if I am the Yankees.
You don’t want to have to pass on a player like Santana, but one team is never going to have all the great players and there are 29 other teams out there. If he ends up with the Red Sox, so be it – but I still think he’ll end up with the Mets or Dodgers.
Its not worth the talent. As a general rule it just can’t be worth it. Cano is comparable to Santana alone. Then Hughes also? If you`re afraid of the Sawx having a 1-2 punch of Santana-Beckett just think about them surrendering Pedroia, Ellsbury, and Lester. They`re stuck with Alex Cora as an everyday player at second abd who replaces Ellsbury
The only thing you should be afraid of is Omar giving up his whole team for Santana and Jose Reyes torturing us in games against the Twins.
Another note. Santana has a NTC and if he wants can become a FA which makes the most sense for him.
IMO Hughes and Chamberlain are absolutely untouchable. Santana is a great pitcher who can go deep into games and save the bullpen but Hughes and Joba both look to be very good pitchers. Factoring in that Santana is older than they are and makes a ton more money (killing flexibility), if one of them is required to make the trade, I don’t do it. I’m even torn on trading Kennedy.
Cano is another question. He is young and very talented and just the type of major league player the Twins would want. Make no mistake, I think he is a very good player and gives awesome production from Second Base. He’s also a very flawed player. Even with a significant increase in walks this year, his OBP was only .353. Cano is a very good player, which is why the Twins would want him. But given what I’ve seen of him, Hughes and Joba, he’s the one I’d be willing to give up to get this done. Given the Yankees strength at offense, they can, imo, afford to sacrifice some offense at second base to get the best pitcher in baseball, who at 29 is still in his prime.
If you can get the deal done with some combination of Cano, Melky and Horne, or maybe Tabata, then it should be done. If the Twins insist on Hughes or Joba, sorry, it’s not worth it.
Rebecca:
The “Zito statement” was in answer to “Winfield’s” post (3:22 PM) about Zito’s love for New York. (Actually Zito was quite the opposite and showed preference for California Teams).
Jake:
I doubt that Cashman would offer both Melky and Jackson, but Tabata is probably just as close or closer to MLB ready as Ajax.
Finding a League Average CFer to replace Melky is easier than finding an Ace starter.
Only a Moran for a GM would make trade for Santana.
Mike and Wolf,
I like your points about keeping the young talent. This is the problem and one the Yankees could pay dearly for either way. If they give them up, they would be giving up on their crown jewel as one of you put it. If they don’t make the trade, the run the risk of letting this guy end up in Boston and that is just EXTREMELY nauseating. Theo Epstein knows this.
So we’re pretty screwed no matter what we do unless he makes it to Free Agency (which he very well could).
I like the direction that the Yankees are going in. Blending home grown talent with solid veteran leadership. If they ultimately do not get Santana and feel the need to go after a starter, then you gotta figure that other teams will listen to offers and Cashman will come up with something.
We don’t want to face the issue of having an overload of young talent, which is possible.
I gotta admit, I would love to see Santana in pinstripes, but the cost might be far too high.
Santana is the best pitcher in baseball but the value of his talent is mitigated by two factors:
1. The exorbitant amount it will cost to get him in terms of talent and money.
2. The depth of left handed free agent pitching available in 2009.
Signing Santana from ages 29-38 at $25 million dollars a year may be a fair value from years 1-4 of the contract but will become an albatross around their necks afterwards. If he gets hurt during years 1-3 its an absolute disaster.
That’s the money part – even at that its a real question if any pitcher is worth $25 million (pre-luxury tax – they’ll be paying close to $35 million with the tax)
In terms of talent – how much of an upgrade will Santana from ages 29-37 be over Phil Hughes from ages 21-29. Phil may struggle this year but it wouldn’t be too surprising if he won 13-15 games either. Santana this year will be worth around 5-9 games over phil. That’s a lot but a figure that is diluted by the rest of the talent they are also giving up.
Are cano/ melky/ horne, etc worth the 5-9 game difference between Santana and Phil?
The volume of talent and money look less and less attractive when you estimate differentials in wins for each player involved.
Finally, while Santana is the best pitcher in baseball there will be three premium front line starters who are potential free agents after 2009 – Santana, Sabathia and Bedard.
At least one of those three will make it to the market in 2009. Good chance 2 of the 3.
Would you rather have Sabathia and Hughes/ Melky/ Horne/ etc. to start the 2009 seaso or Santana by himself at the age of 30?
Take a shot this year. I would not trade Phil or Joba or Cano under any circumstance. They’re too valuable as asset that combine tremendous talent and pay roll flexibility. Wait a year and sign a lefty free agent after 2009 to replace Andy in the rotation.
Santana is the best pithcer in baseball but doesn’t look like a great value at this point. Price could fall. But we’ll see.
LathamJoe,
I kind of agree with what you’re saying, but don’t we have what is considered to be an “Ace” in the making with Joba?
If we have a rotation built around Joba, Wang, and Hughes over the next 5 years, that should be legit.
I don’t like the idea of including Tabata or Jackson in any trade right now because of the age of our outfield right now. Between Matsui, Damon, and Abreu, you get Old, Old, and Old. These guys will not be effective for any more than 2 more years or so. Matsui is falling apart, Damon is lazy, and Abreu hits in front of A-Rod.
FWIW: Many think that Alan Horne has a much higher upside then IPK. If Santana’s agent is smart, there will be no trade. 3 stud players who are young, are worth antwhere from 5 – 20 million/yr. How much to replace Cano (with like production) $10m? Melky? $5m? Highes? 10m? So a team signs Santana for $20m and also loses $20 worth of players?
Santana will get $25m/yr as a FA. As a trade, because a team has to give up so much young talent, even $20m/yr is stretching it. Santana WILL be an FA.
“Do the Yankees want 2 players taking up $50 million?”
Um, hate to break it to you Pete but they already have that. Arod+Jeter, or Arod + Giambi will both = $50 million.
i truly think the yankees should stand pat. I want to see the three amigos (hughes, joba, IPK) blossom together. Philip Hughes was the yankees best pitcher in the postseason. I think he has ACE potential and i want no part of trading him, joba, or ian.
does anyone agree?
Trading or leaving Santana is the difference between visiting a whore or continuing to “give chase” to the hottie.
If you need to instant gratification, you go out and there and dole out the the money for the whore (Santana). If you can be patient and devoted to what you already essentially have, you’ll end up having greater, longer lasting, and more fulfilling gratification (Hughes, Horne, Melky, and the farm).
trading for santana will be a HUGE mistake for whatever team does so. there is NO WAY he’s going to be great for the next 6 seasons. NO WAY. between the players and the money involved, a deal for santana would be a HUGE risk, a risk NOT worth taking. if it means the BoSox get him, fine. let them have him. let them be the team that every one hates for “buying” their pennants. let them be the team with the obscene payroll, luxury tax, internecine squabbling, and no farm system.
in my opinion, the yanks would be better off letting hughes and joba develop into top-of-the-rotation aces, trading away some of their other pitching talent for great relief pitching (i.e. marte, fuentes, etc.) and, generally, getting younger, faster, and more durable.
but, you see, i’ve HATED watching the mess the Yanks have made of their past 6 seasons, so i would like to see a change. and trading away great young talent for aging talent is just the same-o, same-o.
let ‘em trade hughes, horne, and tabata for scott kazmir. THAT would make some sense.
THAT way, they get youth for youth. santana isn’t “old,” but he’ll be 30 before hughes is
even 23.
let ‘em trade horne, duncan, and white (or so) for gorzellany and marte.
just let ‘em make sense.
It’s unlikely ARod + Jeter or ARod + Giambi will cost more than $50 million this year.
All the reports on ARod’s contract is that its going to relatively back loaded. ARod will be “making up” the Texas money the yankees lost when he opted out in years 1-3 of his new contract.
For this reason ARod over the next 3 years reportedly will “only” be making roughly $21 million or so ($28 million minus the $7 million per year that was supposed to be coming from texas).
This back loading is a significant advantage to the yankees because of the number of older veterans that will be coming off the books over the next three years (giambi, mussina, matsui, damon).
With ARod making around $21 million and Giambia at $20 million and Jeter at around $19-20 million those combinations will not top $50 million (not that it really matters – its a lot of money).
Pete was most likely referring to four years from now when ARod will jump to $28 million/ year and santana would be signed at $25 million per.
Jeter’s got 3 more years on his deal – his salary will not go up when his contract is up at age $36.
Wolf:
You make very good points and I understand the risk of injury. But that’s an inherent risk of any trade whether it be for prospects or veterans. Remember Eric Milton? He was the”crown jewel” of the Yankee Farm system when traded to the Twins along with highly rated ss Guzman, Danny Mota, and Buchanan for Chuck Knoblauch. Granted, Knoblauch didn’t turn out to be the All Star 2nd baseman he was with the Twins, but he gave the Yanks 3 solid years during their Championship stretch of 1996-2000 (before he got “the yips”). Milton turned out to be a very mediocre starter with a career ERA of 5.01 and the other three barely saw MLB action.
The risk of a Santana injury looms whether or not he’s traded for or whether he reaches free agency…but you still sign a major talent like him and take the risk.
Injuries are a risk with any player. You can conjecture all you want but the truth of the matter is you do not know.
When it comes to considering injuries, it is okay when you are talking about a 41 year old jackass that is 6′11″ tall with a history of back issues.
When you’re talking about a 29 year old perennial Cy Young candidate who is 2-0 with a 1.17 ERA in Yankee stadium, you are a hell of a lot less concerned about injuries when considering trading for him.
Jake:
It would sure seem like Joba is an “Ace” in the making and I wouldn’t advocate trading him for anyone right now. But, as in the case with Hughes and Joba, the operative words are “Ace in the making”. Santana IS an established Ace already.
With all due respect to Joba, he hasn’t even pitched more than 2 innings of MLB – none as a starter.
The upside and talent of Eric Milton was never, ever close to what Hughes or Joba’s is. Nor was it that close to Kennedy.
The Yankees haven’t had young pitching with this much upside since Brien Taylor.
Take all of the young pitching prospects the yankees have had over the last 30 years – Hughes/ Joba/ Kennedy are in the top 5 with Joba and Hughes likely the top 2.
The risk and reward of Santana has to be weighed against the fantanstic upside of Hughes and Joba and to a lesser degree Kennedy.
Kennedy would DEFINITELY be a guy I’d consider trading for Santana. Don’t get me wrong, I think he is a legit talent and could pan out nicely, but on the same token, that makes him a viable trading chip. He is also right-handed. We have right-handed power pitchers in Joba and Hughes, we a sinker-baller in Wang, and a work-horse lefty in Pettitte (if, if, if). Another lefty is needed, whoever that is.
My dear god. If only a rotation of Pettitte, Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Santana/Kazmir/Bedard was in reach. That has to be as good as any rotation in the league IF Joba and Hughes can handle their roles.
Trade Jeter for Santana.
nice woah.
CB:
No one is comparing Milton’s talent with Joba or Hughes – it obviously wasn’t even close. But in 1996, Eric Milton WAS the crown jewel of their pitching prospects -that’s all I’m saying. The same conjecture about trading their future to the Twins was discussed . They did it and Milton didn’t turn out to be someone the Yankees regretted trading.
The Milton/Knoblach deal will motivate the Twins to make sure that they get a lot better package for Santana.
I’m all up for getting Santana as long as it only involves money – i.e. him hitting free agency.
If getting Santana involves trading away our young players, then I say good luck to whichever team (Red Sux, Dodgers) that will be depleting its farm for one player – it shouldn’t be the Yankees.
LathmJoe,
I didn’t mean to imply that you thought Milton was on par with Joba/ Hughes. Your arguments make a lot of sense and I know you were using Milton as an example.
My point was just on how do they take into account risk/ reward with Santana.
Prospects fizzle all the time so you have to discount their present value especially when compared to a guy like Santana.
The point you raised was how do you discount the value of Hughes/ Joba compared with Santana? That’s a key point in figuring out the value proposition the trade presents.
Coming into the 2007 season Hughes was widely considered the best prospect in all of baseball. Coming out of the 2007 season Joba was arguably the best prospect in baseball (at least top 3).
The Yankees have never had that kind of talent every before. I think you have discount their present value very differently.
It wouldn’t shock me if both Phil and Joba together won 26-30 games this season (the biggest limit on that will be their innings cap next year). It wouldn’t shock me if Joba brought shut down stuff to the playoffs next year. I don’t think its likely given their age/ experience but I don’t think its that unlikely either.
Its estimating probabilities. But if Santana only wins 5-7 more games than Hughes does next year then Santana’s value to the yanees falls very, very dramatically.
EY….agreed 100%
“Pettitte, Wang, Joba, Hughes, and Santana/Kazmir/Bedard was in reach. That has to be as good as any rotation in the league IF Joba and Hughes can handle their roles.”
That rotation is better than pretty much any rotation EVER.
And don’t put Kazmir in the same breath as Santana and Bedard until he starts going deep into games. I love the guy’s stuff, and he dominates from time to time, but just as often he throws 100 pitches in 4 2/3 innings. Santana and Bedard have better control.
“I don’t think its likely given their age/ experience but I don’t think its that unlikely either.”
Hughes looked pretty good in his relief outings, wrt composure on the mound. And, unless 1,047 bugs get all up in Joba’s piece again, I like his composure too.
The true value of Santana is not about regular season win shares. His true value will be in the post season as our ace.
# from Captain Clutch to Derek Choker November 24th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
joba will be 8-8 5.10 era next year. hughes will be 14-7 4.10. wang will be 16-9. mussina will be 0-3 9 era (released)
/troll
Dear, From Captain Clutch to Derek Choker:
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. “
from Captain Clutch to Derek Choker,
Ya, and Dice-K is definitely worth $100 million. Doubt it.
Melky was better than any toolbox Boston threw into CF last year, including Elsbury. I’m not saying Elsbury won’t be a solid CF (possibly as early as next year), but Boston didn’t have one outfielder that was as good at their position as Melky was in CF. And I am NOT talking purely offensive. Obviously Manny wins that battle.
Don’t be a jackass, obviously we are not proposing Melky and Kennedy for Santana. Could they both be involved in a trade that includes additional prospects? Definitely. But it still is unlikely to occur.
Minnesota is not an easy read. Here they are supposedly trying to be competitive, an owner with more money than the Steinbrenners, a taxpayer paid stadium forthcoming, and yet they let a popular CF (Torii Hunter) go to free agency, no sense of urgency in signing their best pitcher long term, and a recently (2006) named MVP (Justin Morneau), and arguably the best young catcher (Joe Mauer) in the game not being locked up before they become free agents themselves. Their fans must be as enduring as any in MLB.
Choker….Sorry man…But I really do hope your kidding or that your are a Red Sux fan.
“joba will be 8-8 5.10 era next year. hughes will be 14-7 4.10. wang will be 16-9. mussina will be 0-3 9 era (released)”
Are you serious? You think Joba will have a 5.10 ERA huh. And why would Wang only win 16 games. He has won 19 two years in a row.
You are crazy Choker.
In the off season after the Sox have won a world series their fans have nothing better to do than troll on a yankees blog.
That’s just really sad.
Does anyone know the date when MLB’s Rule 5 Draft will be conducted?
i think rule five is at the end of winter meetings, Latham Joe
LathamJoe
November 24th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Does anyone know the date when MLB’s Rule 5 Draft will be conducted?
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The Rule 5 Draft is on the 6th of December.
I’m looking for a list of players available if anybody has it or a link.
I want to see us win with our players.
and our farm system.
it ain’t stopping anytime soon either vinny, couldn’t agree more.
joba
philly
IPK
horne
sanchez
melancon
betances
whelan
cox
tabata
jackson
gardner
montero
the list goes on. scary for the rest of baseball if we operate this way. i say hold onto them all, we’ll get our own santana from that group. maybe 3.
and another jeter/posada/bernie from the end of that list…
Paddy R
exactly.
100%
Dont trade Hughes, Chanberlain or Cano period…..
People like Heyman and the media like to lump Hughes as tradable but I am pretty sure Brian Cashman,Damon Oppenheimer and Mark Newman hold Hughes in higher regard then the media perception based on a kid who pitched on a bad leg.
Rob Cano, Melky, and a pitching prospect (NOT ONE OF THE BIG THREE ) should get it done. Do we do it? We also have to have him signed for 5-6 years! We sign Aaron Rowand for CF, pick up a veteran for 2B, get Andy P. back for another year and we win #27 !!!!! That’s it! We save the Big Three but (sadly) we have to let Cano go to do this!
Paddy R
November 24th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
it ain’t stopping anytime soon either vinny, couldn’t agree more.
joba
philly
IPK
horne
sanchez
melancon
betances
whelan
cox
tabata
jackson
gardner
montero
the list goes on. scary for the rest of baseball if we operate this way. i say hold onto them all, we’ll get our own santana from that group. maybe 3.
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The real Mother Lode of offensive talent is going to be in Charleston in 2008, with Montero, Laid, Sublett, Snyder and Suttle. More of the offense of the future in Tampa with Hillingoss, and Fortenberry, not to mention more pitching. Add in the pitching that will be coming back into the picture with the kids coming back from sugery.
Paddy R :
Unfortunately, the names you mention include no lefthanded pitchers, starters or relievers. While it is an impressive list, some of those names may have to be dealt to get those elusive lefthanders, Santana or otherwise. It’s just the way it is. Just so long as those with the most upside are not included, then it can be lived with.
RJPinstripes
November 24th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Rob Cano, Melky, and a pitching prospect (NOT ONE OF THE BIG THREE ) should get it done. Do we do it? We also have to have him signed for 5-6 years! We sign Aaron Rowand for CF, pick up a veteran for 2B, get Andy P. back for another year and we win #27 !!!!! That’s it! We save the Big Three but (sadly) we have to let Cano go to do this!
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Rowand has terrible numbers in Yankee Stadium and with a 6 year asking price of 14-15 million a year is pure stupidity. Getting rid of Cano is insane as well. NYY would field an infield offense of Rodriguez and Jeter and not much else. It’s ok to hide one offensive void at 1st base, as long as the 2nd baseman is capable of putting up a 1st baseman’s numbers, but, not 2 holes…and, that’s assuming that everyone else has their normal years.
They’re not trading Cano. Go to baseball-reference.com and check Cano’s most similar hitters through age 24. Note the # of Hall of Famers. The Yanks know what they’ve got and they’re not trading him.
Bronxie Brenda
November 24th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Paddy R :
Unfortunately, the names you mention include no lefthanded pitchers, starters or relievers. While it is an impressive list, some of those names may have to be dealt to get those elusive lefthanders, Santana or otherwise. It’s just the way it is. Just so long as those with the most upside are not included, then it can be lived with.
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Horne is left handed and he’s the next pitcher on the call-up list for starters. There are more left handers that will be available in the next couple of years further down in the farm system. There are also two other quality left handed starters coming into free agency next year besides Santana.
Whenever people talk about trading Cano and Melky, they advocate spending even MORE money for unproven replacements on the free agent market. Melky and Robbie can handle N.Y.
Keep the kids. If Santana really wants to come to N.Y., the Yankees can get him next year as a free agent. If he doesn’t, then some other team will overpay for him this year.
Even Santana in a red sox uniform doesn’t scare me. As good as Santana is, he won’t keep the Yankees out of the playoffs as either division champs or wild card. Once in the playoffs, we have had Santana’s number before, we can beat him again.
I’m comfortable with Wang, Mussina and the kids. If we get Andy back, even better.
Don’t panic. We will score 900-1000 runs again next year, and have the best closer in the game. With more experience for the kids (including the kids in the pen), we will make it 13 straight years in the playoffs. AND, will have a better chance than anyone else to win eleven games there.
Keep the young ones.
Horne is a righty.
The most highly thought of yankees’ LH prospect is mike dunn, and he’s expected by most scouts to be a bullpen guy–and not make it to the big leagues until 2009. garret patterson has a fantastic left arm, but health and control problems–and he’s just been switched to the ‘pen. they’ve got NO LH pitchers projected to be good ML starters.
who are the “two other quality left handed starters” coming into free agency?
GreenBeret :
Alan Horne is in fact a righthander. The next (quality) lefthanders to be free agents other than Santana are C.C. Sabathia and Erik Bedard.
Horne is not left handed. People who don’t follow the minors should probably refrain from cooking up ill-informed trade scenarios involving players whose value they don’t have a good grasp of. Of course, if reporters followed that recommendation, there would be no trade scenarios…
btw, I’m all for passing on a Santana trade.
jandek’s ghost
November 24th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Horne is a righty.
The most highly thought of yankees’ LH prospect is mike dunn, and he’s expected by most scouts to be a bullpen guy–and not make it to the big leagues until 2009. garret patterson has a fantastic left arm, but health and control problems–and he’s just been switched to the ‘pen. they’ve got NO LH pitchers projected to be good ML starters.
who are the “two other quality left handed starters†coming into free agency?
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My screw-up. Horne is a right hander. However NYY does have Mike Dunn coming to Tampa in ‘08 and Zachary Kroenke who will split time in Tampa and Trenton, both left handed. Dunn, in particular is going to be good. I got a chance to watch him when Charleston came to Savannah, GA this past year, and, he is going to be special. All in all, though, I’d rather have a team full of right handers that are very good and more, than to stick a couple of decent left handers in there, just to have left handed pitchers.
>>>>
I know it is speculation/dreaming, but that is soap opera stuff, i can’t believe the commissioner doesn’t have anything to counter those types of things
i agree with the bro that said there is a good chance 1 of 3 of santana/bedard/sabathia hit the fa market, and that is what we should remain patient for, one wouldn’t be going on a limb by saying that joba and hughes should account for 20-28 wins even on an innings limit.
also, there is no chance that peavy’s option isn’t picked up by the pads.
Phil
November 24th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Horne is not left handed. People who don’t follow the minors should probably refrain from cooking up ill-informed trade scenarios involving players whose value they don’t have a good grasp of. Of course, if reporters followed that recommendation, there would be no trade scenarios…
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I made an error. Calm down, Chauncey.
I’m not sure Dunn is destined for the pen. They only switched him to the mound in `06 and he made a good adjustment this year. If he gets the feel for the change he had in `06 back, he can stay a starter. The Yanks have some kids named Angel Reyes and Andres Santos who are somewhat high upside lefties and both are battling back from injury.
All this overwhelming talk of Johan Santana is enough to cause a severe headache and upset stomach.
Green Beret,
Forgive me, I just saw a chance to tell people who don’t know anything about the minors to quit throwing them into their trade ideas.
Mark McCray: Actually, for true rookie years, those numbers are believable–especially since in the games Joba went two, I don’t know if you caught it, that he was clearly less effective in the second inning of work.
Doesn’t mean I like it,l and it doesn’t mean that they won’t have a better second year, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Of course, optimistically speaking, they will probably do a lot better than that…
Phil
November 24th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Green Beret,
Forgive me, I just saw a chance to tell people who don’t know anything about the minors to quit throwing them into their trade ideas.
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I’ve been watching kids come through the Sally League and FSL for years, whenever I was in country and home. That’s one of the benefits of living in Savannah. Watching Jeter, Posada, Bernie Williams and Pettitte grow up, whether they were with Prince William, Greensboro, Charleston or Tampa.
Cano,Horne,McCutchen,Melky,Tabata should get it done.
Jax
November 24th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Cano,Horne,McCutchen,Melky,Tabata should get it done.
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Gee, do you think the Yankees could swindle Punto out of them, too, or just have to settle for Mauer or Morneu?
Thanks guys for the Rule 5 Draft date.
To followup on something Paddy R said regarding MiLB prospects in the Yankee organization, it should be interesting to see what the Front Office will do with all the (seemingly) bright righthand pitching prospects in the next few years.
Even if Kennedy, Joba, and Hughes start at the MLB level,
you have the following potential pitchers that could reach AAA next year, all between the ages of 22-25:
Clippard, Sanchez, Horne, Marquez, White, DeSalvo, Wright,
McCutchen, Cox, Whelan, with Ohlendorf, Ramirez, Veras, Patterson & Britton somewhere between MLB and AAA.
I’m not by any means an expert on the Yankee MiLB organization, but where will they find room for all these prospects without trading or losing some?
I would love to drop Tabata but I don’t believe Cano,Horne,McCutchen,Melky is enough. I don’t know maybe it is. I’m trying to come up with a package that doesn’t include Joba,Hughes or Kennedy and preferably not Tabata or Jackson either.
LathamJoe
November 24th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Thanks guys for the Rule 5 Draft date.
To followup on something Paddy R said regarding MiLB prospects in the Yankee organization, it should be interesting to see what the Front Office will do with all the (seemingly) bright righthand pitching prospects in the next few years.
Even if Kennedy, Joba, and Hughes start at the MLB level,
you have the following potential pitchers that could reach AAA next year, all between the ages of 22-25:
Clippard, Sanchez, Horne, Marquez, White, DeSalvo, Wright,
McCutchen, Cox, Whelan, with Ohlendorf, Ramirez, Veras, Patterson & Britton somewhere between MLB and AAA.
I’m not by any means an expert on the Yankee MiLB organization, but where will they find room for all these prospects without trading or losing some?
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Of those pitchers, I’d say that White, DeSalvo, Cox, Britton and Whelan have the best shot at being included in trades.
Jax
November 24th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
I would love to drop Tabata but I don’t believe Cano,Horne,McCutchen,Melky is enough. I don’t know maybe it is. I’m trying to come up with a package that doesn’t include Joba,Hughes or Kennedy and preferably not Tabata or Jackson either.
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If it comes down to an either/or, I’d rather lose Tabata than Cano (under no circumstances) or AJax.
Good point! The heck with Santana why do we just keep all three.lol
Jax
November 24th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Good point! The heck with Santana why do we just keep all three.lol
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I’ll keep what NYY has now and take my chance on signing one of the top four pitchers that hit the market at the deadline or Free Agency.
agreed GreenBeret7 those are the ones that Cash would be willing to trade.
True enough that at some point in 2008, some or all of DeSalvo, Karstens, Clippard, Wright, Bruney, Henn, and Rasner will figure in deals unless any can show otherwise in spring training. The next wave of good young pitching are beginning to make cases of serious consideration. Alan Horne, Jeffery Marquez, David Robertson, and Daniel McCutchen are rising fast and there’s more to follow.
Better that than lack of talent.
Interesting comparison ….
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/chamberlain-or-hughes-whos-got-better-mechanics/
Matt
November 24th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
True enough that at some point in 2008, some or all of DeSalvo, Karstens, Clippard, Wright, Bruney, Henn, and Rasner will figure in deals unless any can show otherwise in spring training. The next wave of good young pitching are beginning to make cases of serious consideration. Alan Horne, Jeffery Marquez, David Robertson, and Daniel McCutchen are rising fast and there’s more to follow.
Better that than lack of talent.
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Unless Karstens is a demand in part of a larger deal, like for Haren, I expect him to stay, because he shows guts, is young, and not a bad swing man. I think he could be the Yankees new Ramiro Mendoza, if he stays healthy. He would also be a good pickup for a rebuidling team, moreso than a Rasner, who’s best suited for the weak hitting, big ballpark teams of the NL West.
Throw in Z.McAllister,J.Heredia,Dellin Betances as part of that next wave too.
Jax, don’t forget Christian Garcia
Yeah, I knew someone was missing.
I’ve heard he’s matured and seems to have his head on straight now. Hopefully it’s true. His stuff is as good as Hughes.
Third Rail Zap, like the 06 version of Hughes too. It’s too bad the Yankees changed his mechanics/delivery earlier this year. The 06 Hughes had better velocity on his fastball.
Cano’s not getting traded. Neither are Phil and Joba.
I think Hughes could get traded. I hope he isn’t, but I think it’s possible.
I don’t even know why people think Cano or Phil or Joba are getting traded word has it Girardi wants them on the roster in 08′ so eh speculate all you guys want 2008 Robi will be at 2B, Alex will be on 3B, Joba will be the Ace or # 2 and Phil Hughes same as Joba, that I can guarantee
I don’t understand how Hughes and or Kennedy is traded because of the hiring of Eiland. If the Yankees had any plans of trading these young pitchers what was the point of hiring Eiland?
Why would the deletion of one pitcher reflect on the decision to hire who the Yankees believe is the most qualified man for the job? It’s not like he replaced a good pitching coach.
Now, if they traded Hughes, Kennedy, and Horne, I would agree, but I don’t think that’s within the realm of the possible
The prospect of Santana in pinstripes is exciting to think about however I hope the Yanks don’t panic and make a bad trade to keep Santana from the Sox. The Sox fans are extremely cocky these days, which is going to make it sweeter when we win the division again next year! If we don’t have that slew of injuries we win the division hands down in 2007. We were hobbled and still won 94 games. The Sox won because the Indians choked and the Rockes came back down to earth. I think Joe G. was a great choice to replace Torre & we will compete with or without Santana.
well Eiland was dued a promotion Jax, but it’s basically more because Guidry sucked and we acquired a better teacher of pitching mechanics from Seattle’s former pitching cord. Rafael Chaves
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 24th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
well Eiland was dued a promotion Jax, but it’s basically more because Guidry sucked and we acquired a better teacher of pitching mechanics from Seattle’s former pitching cord. Rafael Chaves
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Gil Patterson would have been my choice of a new pitching coach with Eiland as the bullpen coach.
GB, the thing is you also need to remember Dave Eiland worked w/ these kids , now it’s up to him because the guy in waiting might break some AAA records next year, Rafael Chavez is a young upcoming pitching guru, Patterson is another one but the Yankees would love him to stay in the minors since his strength is fixing mechanics up quickly
hmmm. interesting comments re:joba vs. phil. but i think that too many of those comments reflect on the hughes we saw in the first half of 2007, not on the guy we saw late in the season. i’m not expert enough on pitching mechanics to discern the subtle differences, but i do know enough about ML pitching to know that the hughes we saw late in the season is a ++young pitcher with stuff, command, AND cojones.
neither of these guys should get traded in a deal for santana.
no one mentions kennedy much, but he’s a darned good one, too. a major league pitcher NOW, i think. maddux-like in size, style, stuff. no one has any right to expect him to be as good as maddux, of course, but a solid ML career, 15 wins/season, and a better-than-average ERA/K-BB/.BAA are reasonable expectations. and that’s pretty good!
but kennedy is not, obviously, grade-a prime, so his loss via trade would be far less painful than that of hughes.
i’d rather see the yanks pull off a “smaller” deal, or two, than a blockbuster for santana.
why? trading for santana will absolutely require giving up a lot of talent. anyone who thinks melky/horne/kennedy or kennedy/tabata/duncan would get it done is dreaming.
robinson cano is the yanks’ most attractive trade bait–period. young, established, high ceiling potential, and still CHEAP. he’s what minnesota would want. cano AND tabata AND
a top young pitcher like hughes might get it done. you’d really want to give up cano? and replace him with who? betemit? come on. phillips? or maybe marcus giles?
“smaller” deals i’d rather see: marquez+henn+gardner for brian fuentes
kennedy+britton+cox for damaso marte/tom gorzellany
farnsworth+$$$ for a good LH prospect
keep cano. keep hughes. keep joba. keep a-jax. keep tabata. re-sign andy. win.
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 24th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
GB, the thing is you also need to remember Dave Eiland worked w/ these kids , now it’s up to him because the guy in waiting might break some AAA records next year, Rafael Chavez is a young upcoming pitching guru, Patterson is another one but the Yankees would love him to stay in the minors since his strength is fixing mechanics up quickly
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Actually, Patterson could have almost any job he chose, but, wanted to stay close to home because his 8 year old son suffers from Touette’s Syndrome. When NY hired him a couple of years ago after he left Toronto (he’s the guy that rebuilt Al Leiter and later Roy Halliday) he asked to be assigned to Tampa of the GCL for that reason. He knows these kids as well as Eiland and Contreras.
Edit: that’s Tourette’s Syndrome. Somebody stole my “R” key.
Gil Patterson is a valuable member of the organization under Pitching Coordinator Nardi Contreras. His role comes in the form of teaching and the system has many prospects needing his advice as everybody knows.
Dave Eiland was given the products in their last stages of development to refine at AA and AAA levels. That’s why he was tapped as the pitching coach.
Thanks GB I didn’t know about his son or him wanting to stay close at home, I remember the story of him rebuilding Holliday, and making Igawa somewhat a better pitcher in SF, thanks man.
I think the mainstream NY sports media has gotten the wrong impression on Hughes and his value to the organization….You guys are going on the sample size on which you saw him after he came back from the knee/ankle injury when his mechanics were out of whack (no thanks to Ron Guidry) and his legs were not under him 100%.
The media has seemed to label Hughes as a tradeable commodity while labeling Joba as the only untouchable. From what I read of interviews of Mark Newman, Brian Cashman and Damon Oppenheimer on Pinstripe Plus over the years as well as recent quotes from Cashman and Hank I think it would be a safe assumption on my part that the Yankee orgonization think just as much as Hughes as they do with Joba.
Just offering my personal opinion and what most of us Yankee fans are saying not the soundbite reactionary talk radio Yankee fan that thinks Joba is a hall of famer and Hughes is a bust.
madein1903.com
here’s what Felix Hernandez had to say about Rafael Chaves the new AAA Yanks pitching coach
Three years after Hernandez signed his first professional contract, Chaves entered the picture and has helped mold his future. Like every single Mariners pitcher who has ever worked under Chaves, Hernandez speaks glowingly of his mentor.
“He’s the best pitching coach in the world,†said Hernandez. “He’s helped me a lot with my pitches – everything. I feel really good (working) with him.â€
madein1903.com/forum
Eric
November 24th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Gil Patterson is a valuable member of the organization under Pitching Coordinator Nardi Contreras. His role comes in the form of teaching and the system has many prospects needing his advice as everybody knows.
Dave Eiland was given the products in their last stages of development to refine at AA and AAA levels. That’s why he was tapped as the pitching coach.
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Few people remember just how good of a pitcher Gil Patterson would have been if the Yankees and in particular Gabe Paul hadn’t told him to pitch Winter ball at the age of 21. He had just finished two years of pitching nearly 500 innings by the age of less than 21. That pretty much ended his career. Ron Guidry was a team mate in the minors and said he had 4 plus pitches, including a 98 MPH fastball with control with perfect mechanics.
After the arm injury, he spent four years parking cars at a resteraunt in Florida and trying to learn to pitch left handed. George Steinbrenner saw him one night and offered him a coaching job.
The front office fired him in 1984 for refusing to allow Al Leiter to pitch more innings because he was already over the limits of what Patterson thought they should be. Everyone’s well aware of what happened to Al Leiter in his early career.
Jeff–I’m with you…Hughes was injured most of last seasonn, we have to see what he does in a full healthy season before coming to any snap judgments
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 24th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Thanks GB I didn’t know about his son or him wanting to stay close at home, I remember the story of him rebuilding Holliday, and making Igawa somewhat a better pitcher in SF, thanks man.
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Not a problem, Brandon. Here’s a link to Gil Patterson that makes a great story.
By the way…Patterson is also a consultant for Worldwide Baseball Prospects. Good info on that site.
http://www.worldwidebaseballprospects.com/pages-added/gil-patterson-press.php
wow what a sad story
what a career he could’ve had, I’m adding this to favorites will read up on it later big time, again thanks GB , do you have any more back stories like on Nardi or the newly hired Chaves ?
If the Yanks don’t go for Johan b/c the asking price is too high, then go for Dan Haren.
GreenBeret7 – Great story about Patterson. I remember reading that Kepner story a while back, and it still is an heartbreaking story, well told. I think he, in no small part, has had a role in our bonanza in young pitching. Now, if he could also teach them heart…
If the Yankees didn’t have 3/5 of their rotation with young pitchers I don’t think Eiland is the pitching coach. Yeah Guidry sucked but I still think he would have been the pitching coach today if the rotation was veterans 1-5.
If even one of these guys where traded I still think there’s not much of a reason to have him the pitching coach. When was the last time the Yankees had one or two young pitchers in the rotation and put a guy the worked with them in the minors and hired him as the pitching coach because of that?
I still have a feeling none of three are being traded.
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 24th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
wow what a sad story what a career he could’ve had, I’m adding this to favorites will read up on it later big time, again thanks GB , do you have any more back stories like on Nardi or the newly hired Chaves ?
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Nothing on the computer right now, but, I can find them, Brandon. Or, just do a google search for those names.
GreenBeret:
So, are you really a green beret? Just curious
WELCOME TO BIG APPLE.~~~~~~~~~~~~
SANTANA IS THE “ACE”.
WE SHOULD GET HIM.
Brandon, here is a link to an interview with Nardi Contreras on a couple of the younger minor league pitchers Also, at the bottom, read what he says about Ron Guidry’s coaching ability. I’ll link some more later.
http://baylor.scout.com/a.z?s=44&p=2&c=689982
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 24th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
GreenBeret:
So, are you really a green beret? Just curious
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Yes, Rebekka. For over 30 years. I started after my first tour in Vietnam in ‘68, came home, was recruited and applied for the school, finished and did two more tours in Vietnam, had tours around the wordl, building schools, hospitals, rebuilding intrfrastructures… Panama, Desert Storm, Afghanistan twice, Enduring Freedom – Irag twice, Bosnia twice. It’s been an education, and, I loved it, but, it wrecked two marriages. I retired last year. I was getting too old to jump out of planes after two blown knees.
Rebecca, the only thing that didn’t teach me was how to spell or type.
GreenBeret–
I write fiction, fairly seriously, and I can’t spell. At all.
I’d consider it a badge of honor, ‘cept it sounds like you don’t need any extra.
A tremendous “Thank You” for your service(s).
“One source told Newsday the Yankees plan to make a “good, strong offer” for Johan Santana and that they believe they have more to offer the Twins in a trade than anybody else does.
Santana still has full no-trade protection at the moment, though that wasn’t extended into 2008 because he failed to finish in the top three in Cy Young balloting, and it sounds as if he’ll demand an extension as part of a trade. Whether or not the Yankees truly have more talent to offer up, they definitely have the ability to pay him like no one else. That alone may make them the favorites to acquire him.”
This is true but what they give up is important.I would love to know what but it must be big if the yankees feel they have the best offer.The tension is killing me.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 24th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
GreenBeret–
I write fiction, fairly seriously, and I can’t spell. At all.
I’d consider it a badge of honor, ‘cept it sounds like you don’t need any extra.
A tremendous “Thank You†for your service(s).
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My pleasure, my honor, Rebecca.
Actually, I stayed in because I was too lazy to get as real job.
In all of this Santana talk I haven’t heard Wang’s name come up. Yes, I’d hate to loose him, but his salary would be a fit for the Twins and the Yanks would be getting a top flight lefty (in Yankee Stadium) for a top flight righty.
Also, I been hearing a lot of rumblings about the Yankees needing to sign a relief pitcher….. so what’s up with 2 they have in the minors, one James “J.B” Cox, and one Humberto Sanchez? Both I know were on the DL but could they be options for the pen in ‘08?
Jacques Wilmore
November 24th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
In all of this Santana talk I haven’t heard Wang’s name come up. Yes, I’d hate to loose him, but his salary would be a fit for the Twins and the Yanks would be getting a top flight lefty (in Yankee Stadium) for a top flight righty.
Also, I been hearing a lot of rumblings about the Yankees needing to sign a relief pitcher….. so what’s up with 2 they have in the minors, one James “J.B†Cox, and one Humberto Sanchez? Both I know were on the DL but could they be options for the pen in ‘08?
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Yes, Sanchez and Cox could be ready to go by late July or August after tuning up in the minors.
GB:
If that doesn’t count as a real job, than humanity as a whole is f—ed!
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 24th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
GB:
If that doesn’t count as a real job, than humanity as a whole is f—ed!
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Well, I was really only trained to do a couple of things besides that. Since a job as a Mob hit man offered no retirement package except in the cement business and Richard Gere had the job as gigolo/call boy….there wasn’t anything left to do.
GB:
You might want to consider a career in the comedy writing business
(And no, I am not mocking you.)
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 24th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
GB:
You might want to consider a career in the comedy writing business
(And no, I am not mocking you.)
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Thanks, Dolly. So, how’s your writing coming along? Anything close to getting published, yet?
GreenBeret7-
Wow, what an article on Gil Patterson, every Yankee fan should read that, it was really fascinating. I live in SF & watched him work with Igawa before the Yankees/Giants games.
Thanks for the link.
Buddy Biancalana
November 24th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
GreenBeret7-
Wow, what an article on Gil Patterson, every Yankee fan should read that, it was really fascinating. I live in SF & watched him work with Igawa before the Yankees/Giants games.
Thanks for the link.
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My pleasure, Buddy. Just happy that others found the likn to Patterson as interesting as I did. He could have had a Hell of a career. If a pitcher could make Ron Guidry go wow as a team mate, he had to be a special talent. And, he was. That’s the biggest reason for the guys like Contreras and Patterson designing these guidelines on all the pitchers coming through the system. Sadly, it was seen as a knock on Torre, but, those guidelines are for every pitcher, from Phil Hughes on down and for every level of manager. That’s a major reason that I think that for this year, with Mussina still on board, NYY should use a modified 6 man rotation. After next year, they can turn these kids loose.
As was said earlier. I don’t want to give up Hughes but I’m for it if it’s Hughes, Melky, and Horne (or some other minor leaguer). But if they want Hughes and Cano and some other minor leaguers, they can take Santana to Boston for all I care and try to get Boston to part with Bucholz, Pedroia, and Ellsbury.
Alex is just about locked up.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/sports/baseball/25arod.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin
The “Joba Rules” were at least partially intended to truncate Torre’s freedom to overuse them, as is his historic pattern with relievers. That’s why they could have been called the “Torre Rules.”
Buddy Biancalana
November 24th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Alex is just about locked up.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/sports/baseball/25arod.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin
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Hopefully, they can stretch these signings out until after the Rule 5 Draft so they can protect the players on the 40 man roster.
and to think the Yankees could have had Tony Perez on their team, could have added another championship or two, that would have put a dent in the Big Red Machine.
whoa
November 24th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
The “Joba Rules†were at least partially intended to truncate Torre’s freedom to overuse them, as is his historic pattern with relievers. That’s why they could have been called the “Torre Rules.â€
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You’re wrong. They were put in place to protect all of the young pitchers throughout the system. Gil Patterson’s link that I posted earlier explains that. Nardi Contreras says the same thing.
Buddy Biancalana
November 24th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
and to think the Yankees could have had Tony Perez on their team, could have added another championship or two, that would have put a dent in the Big Red Machine.
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Perez would have been nice, but, NYY had a pretty decent first baseman in Chris Chambliss. But, still quite an honor to have your name as a stright up trade for a HOFer like Perez after only one year in the minors.
Almost as bad as Steinbrenner and Billy Martin wanting Ron Guidry traded in the spring of 1977 for Bucky Dent. Not straight up, just as a throw-in.
At least Billy & Steinbrenner agreed on something.
Do you honestly believe that Contreras or Patterson are going to publicly diss the sacrosanct St. Joe? Of course, the rules were intended to protect Joba, but the reason that such common sense rules were in effect codified in this instance is because Torre couldn’t be trusted to exercise common sense. He has a history of warming relievers up repeatedly and then not bringing them into a game, and of riding a hot reliever into the ground.
The proof can be seen from the fact that it was Torre who made them public, to Cash’s dismay, because he was frustrated by them and felt his hands were tied. Well duh, that was the point.
It would be the height of naivete to believe that they weren’t partially intended to protect Joba from Torre’s whims.
Buddy Biancalana
November 24th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
At least Billy & Steinbrenner agreed on something.
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Besides on Billy’s lifetime contract?
Billy Martin was a smart baseball man, but, he killed more pitching careers than all of the added up numbers that people blame on Torre ever could.
GB:
Not yet, but I’ve been working on a baseball novel, and you can trace its progress on my blog (click the username) =)
I’ve also done a few other short stories and a 350 page draft of a medieval fantasy novel.
(I like medieval/renaissance history and sports. Wonder if there’s a connection…)
The curse of #2 strikes again!
whoa
November 24th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
GreenBeret7 November 24th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
You’re wrong. They were put in place to protect all of the young pitchers throughout the system. Gil Patterson’s link that I posted earlier explains that. Nardi Contreras says the same thing.
Do you honestly believe that Contreras or Patterson are going to publicly diss the sacrosanct St. Joe? Of course, the rules were intended to protect Joba, but the reason that such common sense rules were in effect codified in this instance is because Torre couldn’t be trusted to exercise common sense. He has a history of warming relievers up repeatedly and then not bringing them into a game, and of riding a hot reliever into the ground.
The proof can be seen from the fact that it was Torre who made them public, to Cash’s dismay, because he was frustrated by them and felt his hands were tied. Well duh, that was the point.
It would be the height of naivete to believe that they weren’t partially intended to protect Joba from Torre’s whims.
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Those so-called “Joba rules” were out in the public well before Torre mentioned it. As a matter of fact, it was Contreras that brought it up the first time. As usual, the Post and the other NY rags took it and ran with it, not bothering to mention that the rules were for Hughes and every other young arm in the system. All the rag writers needed was for a bunch of fans to read “The Joba Rules’ to have a story. They depended on people like you that didn’t bother reading who it was intended for. Are you also one of those that misinterprated the headlines the day Torre was hired….”Clueless Joe”? You know, the one that everybody who actually looked at the teams Torre inherited and the ones that he had after taking over, knew that it meant “Torre has no clue as to what he’s getting into, managing for Steinbrenner.”
The choice:
A trade with the Twins of Cano, Melky, Hughes and Tabata for Santana.
The rotation:
Santana
Pettitte(hopefully)
Chamberlain
Wang
Kennedy
Mussina/Horne for the innings Hughes and Chamberlain can’t throw because of innings limits.
And no Melky and/or Cano(so they’ll probably lose production at 2nd with Who Knows?) and no Tabata. The youth movement gets somewhat neutered.
Or, with no trade:
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Hughes
Wang
Kennedy
(Mussina/Horne for the innings Hughes and Chamberlain can’t throw because of innings limits.)
Plus you keep Cano, Melky and Tabata and the nascent youth movement is intact.
I would go with the second choice. Don’t get me wrong, you’d get a ton of reliable production out of Santana, but with the Yanks offense, would it really make that much of a difference in wins over the long haul of the season? In the post season? Well, it’s tempting to fall victim to the myth of the unhittable #1 starter who can pitch three times in a series and virtually hand deliver a championship. But with the inconsistency of pitching in general, it’s insane to build your organization around that myth, around one guy, and that’s what trading the youngsters for Santana would be doing. Chasing that guy, the #1 starter who will supposedly get them to the promised land, be it Javy Vasquez, Kevin Brown or Randy Johnson, hasn’t gotten them squat.(yes, I know, Santana would almost definitely be way better than any of those guys). But now that they have a good core of young starters, they should just let them all develop (with the backing of that killer offense). Who knows, maybe Joba or Phil will develop into that #1 guy who helps them win it all?
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 24th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
GB:
Not yet, but I’ve been working on a baseball novel, and you can trace its progress on my blog (click the username) =)
I’ve also done a few other short stories and a 350 page draft of a medieval fantasy novel.
(I like medieval/renaissance history and sports. Wonder if there’s a connection…)
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Great. I’m looking forward to reading something of quality for a change, Rebecca. My smut books are getting tattered.
Hmmm. The History Of Medieval Sports? j/k.
Love sports bios and history of any sort. Would love to have visited the medieval times. My luck would be in either not getting my visor on the helmet up or the young lady’s husband/father would have the only key to her chastity belt.
Then I guess Cashman didn’t get the memo that you did because he was quoted expressing frustration at Torre for making them public.
You are confusing the general with the specific. Of course, there are general rules regarding innings caps and usage of every prospect, but in this case, the rules were taken several steps further by devising a narrowly tailored set of guidelines to protect Joba from Torre.
But hey, I guess when you don’t have the facts on your side you have to adopt a condescending attitude and engage in personal attacks on other posters.
You may have read things in your life that I have missed, but I doubt there are more than a few.
I am aware of the origin of the NYDN headline, but in effect, it turned out to be a double entendre, because there was a reason that he had career sub .500 managerial record before he was handed the keys to a team that was ready to win in 1996: he is horrible at bullpen mangaement.
GB: I take it you’ve seen Men in Tights?
I actually have a sword collection. So very feminine of me, I know…
I’m surprised ARod didn’t accept Toledo Mud Hens’ offer of $350 million for 10 years. He’s a perfect fit for the line up. I guess we couldn’t say he all about the money now since he’s giving up $50-75 mil. to return to NY.
Chasing74, Chasing763, or Chasing800
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whoa
Then I guess Cashman didn’t get the memo that you did because he was quoted expressing frustration at Torre for making them public.
You are confusing the general with the specific. Of course, there are general rules regarding innings caps and usage of every prospect, but in this case, the rules were taken several steps further by devising a narrowly tailored set of guidelines to protect Joba from Torre.
But hey, I guess when you don’t have the facts on your side you have to adopt a condescending attitude and engage in personal attacks on other posters.
You may have read things in your life that I have missed, but I doubt there are more than a few.
I am aware of the origin of the NYDN headline, but in effect, it turned out to be a double entendre, because there was a reason that he had career sub .500 managerial record before he was handed the keys to a team that was ready to win in 1996: he is horrible at bullpen mangaement.
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A few facts, Chauncey. I didn’t “attack” anybody, but, one only has to read for about a week of this site to realize your attitude on Torre and Guidry, nor, am I condescending in any way. (I can be, if, you prefer, though) That’s your business, but, be prepared to be told a few actual truths. Personally, I don’t care whether Torre and Guidry were fired, although the reasons people give are somewhat riduculous and they way they were handled by the team, stunk.
Also, I’m not confusing anything. Read what Contreras and Patterson have to say about “The Joba Rules”, and why they were instituted. Again, take the time out to check the teams Torre inherited against the teams records after he took over. Every team was a loser. Atlanta and St. Louis produced either a bottom to first (Atlantas) or a bottom to 2nd (St. Louis). The loses were from an abortion of a team 77-79 Mets) that even John McGraw couldn’t have helped.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 12:06 am
GB: I take it you’ve seen Men in Tights?
I actually have a sword collection. So very feminine of me, I know…
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Yes. Love anything Mel Brooks.
Is that a hint, Rebecca? You want to do the duet from the movie with me? If so, I’ll just lip sync. I’m not even allowed to sing in the showers. I have a few swords, but, most are from the Far East and from Iraq..some real and some ceremonial….some are more of the machete type.
GB:
I’ve got two broadswords, a civil war officer’s sword (Confederate, I think), a light sword and a practice sword =D
It’s good to be the King!
Chauncey? In the mortal words of Ronald Reagan: “There you go again.”
I don’t try to hide my negative opinion of Torre or Guidry as manager and pitching coach, respectively (as opposed to as players or as people). So what’s your point?
From your posts, you seem unable to extrapolate beyond manifest facts to underlying or latent meanings. That’s not meant as a diss, only an observation.
Adopt any kind of stance you want. All you are doing is putting yourself down. If you want to have a detached baseball discussion, that’s cool. If not, ignore my posts.
What I have read so far makes no sense to me. Giving up that much talent, and then on top of that have to pay $25m/year for a pitcher, that no matter how good he has been is bound to get hit hard (most hitters know him by now) is just right down crazy. No pitcher is worth that much (He pitches once every 5 days).
The Yankees have to be careful in paying twice for one player. The pitchers they have now, although inexperienced, have tremendous raw talent and will do very good, and cost very little. They need to learn from the past (Pavano, Wright, R. Johnson, K. Brown etc, etc.) Just because a pitcher is good in one team, does not mean he will do wll in N.Y.
If the Yankees want to make an offer to the Twins, let them offer a package of Damon (pay half his salary), Horne, Marquez and Britton or Bruney) something like that. If they give up any of the following: Cano, Cabrera, Hughes, Joba or Kennedy, Jackson, or Tabata they will be making a serious mistake they will regret for a long time.
It just is not worth it. The Yankees would be back to having a few players (Santana, ARod, Jeter) take up almost $75m. Let the Mets or Boston give up their top prospects and pay him $25m for 6 yrs. Wait until he becomes a FA.
Whoa..
I am aware of the origin of the NYDN headline, but in effect, it turned out to be a double entendre, because there was a reason that he had career sub .500 managerial record before he was handed the keys to a team that was ready to win in 1996: he is horrible at bullpen mangaement.
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You are aware that less than half of that team from 1995 was with the team in 1996, right? Only 3 returning regulars (Bernie Williams, Paul O’Neill, and Wade Boggs with a handful of part time players. Add to that Pettitte and Jimmy Key (returning from a season long injury), David Cone, who missed 2/3rds of 1996, John Wettland, Bob Wickman and a young Mariano Rivera moved from starter to setup guy. That was hardly a team that was set up to win. It was the acqusitions that came, that won, not what Torre inherited.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 12:26 am
GB:
I’ve got two broadswords, a civil war officer’s sword (Confederate, I think), a light sword and a practice sword =D
It’s good to be the King!
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Or, in your case, It’s good to be The Queen/Princess.
I’ve been reading your site. Some good stuff there. I do detect a bit of “Kiss My Grits” humor there. Love the Rule 5 explaination.
That was the core of the team. The beauty of having a core is that you can supplement it with largely interchangeable parts.
You are aware that Torre had intended to start Fernandez at SS in 1996 if he hadn’t hurt his elbow in ST, right?
But yes, I think that Stick and Buck did the heavy lifting that put a core and an approach (e.g., high OBP, strong work ethic, removing the jerks like Mell Hall ) in place that laid the foundation for winning that began in 1996.
btw, I do fault Buck for overusing Cone in Game 5 of the ALDS v. Seattle and not using Rivera more, even though he had begun to demonstrate that he could be a very effective reliever.
Rebecca…
On the Confederate sword, is it stamped with a CSA on it? If so, where?
That was the core of the team. The beauty of having a core is that you can supplement it with largely interchangeable parts.
You are aware that Torre had intended to start Fernandez at SS in 1996 if he hadn’t hurt his elbow in ST, right?
But yes, I think that Stick and Buck did the heavy lifting that put a core and an approach (e.g., high OBP, strong work ethic, removing the jerks like Mell Hall ) in place that laid the foundation for winning that began in 1996.
btw, I do fault Buck for overusing Cone in Game 5 of the ALDS v. Seattle and not using Rivera more, even though he had begun to demonstrate that he could be a very effective reliever.
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Three regulars and a starter aren’t much of a core. Jeter would have split time at shortstop until he was ready, but, Jeter had pretty much won the job in ST., and Fernandez was to split time with Duncan.
Mel Hall wasn’t even on the ‘95 team. In fact Hall left after the ‘92 season. Might want to check that out.
GB: Thank you!
The sword’s a replica (unlike the broadswords, which are real), so no stamp, as far as I know.
You might want to expand your myopic focus to Stick’s entire tenure. Just saying’.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 12:54 am
GB: Thank you!
The sword’s a replica (unlike the broadswords, which are real), so no stamp, as far as I know.
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Any time, Rebecca. I’m reading your stories right now. Good stuff, but, no 4 letter words of meaning and no pictures. Just a bit of advise. My mind tends to wander.
Bernie, O’Neill, Boggs, Pettitte (who was championed by Buck when others in the organization preferred Hitchcock), Key, Cone, Wetteland and a nascent Rivera were a tremendous foundation to build a team around (not to mention Posada, who Stick and Buck devloped). Sorry if you can’t see that. Stick acquired Key and Boggs with the express purpose of changing the losing, bitching mentality that had pervaded the team in the down years. He transformed the Yankees situation from one in which free agents had no interest in (e.g., Bonds, Maddux) to one that free agents wanted to be a part of.
Nope. Fernandez was set to be the SS until he hurt his elbow in ST.
GB:
Pfft.
(Then again, I consider the whole of Les Miserables as light reading, so my advice might not be the one you want)
whoa
November 25th, 2007 at 12:55 am
GreenBeret7 November 25th, 2007 at 12:52 am
Mel Hall wasn’t even on the ‘95 team. In fact Hall left after the ‘92 season. Might want to check that out.
You might want to expand your myopic focus to Stick’s entire tenure. Just saying’.
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I’m well aware of what Gene Michael has done…from his first year as the Yanks regular shortstop in 1968 through to right now, along with a stop with the Cubs, before coming back to NY. I’m also aware of the job that Watson did in getting the players of the Dynasty. Myopic? Hardly. I didn’t bring Mel Hall into the picture…only corrected it.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 1:03 am
GB:
Pfft.
(Then again, I consider the whole of Les Miserables as light reading, so my advice might not be the one you want)
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Seriously…this is good reading.
Now, you understand why I don’t write comedy. I’m not that funny.
You didn’t correct anything. You merely imposed an artificial and quite frankly an arbitrary time constraint on Stick’s contributions when none was warranted. Bringing it up the way you did was a dodge, imo.
Sort of like a poster’s version of the hidden ball trick.
It won’t work with me.
GB:
You’ve given me many of my few smiles tonight.
Take that as you will
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 1:15 am
GB:
You’ve given me many of my few smiles tonight.
Take that as you will
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My pleasure, Rebecca. I prefer these as opposed to pizsing contests. Unless I’m upwind, of course.
whoa
November 25th, 2007 at 1:10 am
I’m well aware of what Gene Michael has done…from his first year as the Yanks regular shortstop in 1968 through to right now, along with a stop with the Cubs, before coming back to NY. I’m also aware of the job that Watson did in getting the players of the Dynasty. Myopic? Hardly. I didn’t bring Mel Hall into the picture…only corrected it.
You didn’t correct anything. You merely imposed an artificial and quite frankly an arbitrary time constraint on Stick’s contributions when none was warranted. Bringing it up the way you did was a dodge, imo.
Sort of like a poster’s version of the hidden ball trick.
It won’t work with me.
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You seem to enjoy these feeble attempts at talking down to people, don’t you? You’re not very good at it.
Since you are the king of feeble attempts, I defer to you.
I’m sorry that you are unable or unwilliing to respond without engaging in insults, so sometimes I feel compelled to respond in kind. Sorry.
__
This post seemed to get lost in cyberspace:
Bernie, O’Neill, Boggs, Pettitte (who was championed by Buck when others in the organization preferred Hitchcock), Key, Cone, Wetteland and a nascent Rivera were a tremendous foundation to build a team around (not to mention Posada, who Stick and Buck devloped). Sorry if you can’t see that. Stick acquired Key and Boggs with the express purpose of changing the losing, bitching mentality that had pervaded the team in the down years. He transformed the Yankees situation from one in which free agents had no interest in (e.g., Bonds, Maddux) to one that free agents wanted to be a part of.
Nope. Fernandez was set to be the SS until he hurt his elbow in ST.
Since you are the king of feeble attempts, I defer to you.
whoa
November 25th, 2007 at 1:34 am
GreenBeret7
November 25th, 2007 at 1:21 am
You seem to enjoy these feeble attempts at talking down to people, don’t you? You’re not very good at it.
Since you are the king of feeble attempts, I defer to you.
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I’m not the one trying to impress people on a message board, nor, am I the one who tries hard to make everyone “realize just how intelligent” you are. I have no reason to talk down to anybody. Just passing along some information for people to enjoy or disregard.
Now, I’m through with you. Don’t bother responding. You’re not worth the effort.
Heh. I told you that an hour ago when you gratuitously started calling me names.
I didn’t start with the insults, dude, you did. Don’t blame me for not having the patience of Job.
Peace.
Great valid points made by Green Beret.
It would have been nice to see Gil Patterson named as bullpen coach….but Harkey was with Girardi in FLA so he has to have some of his guys.Plus perhaps Gill enjoys doing what he is doing.
I have watched Nardi Contreras,Gil Patterson,Mick Kelleher,Jack Hubbard…all the behind the scenes guys over the yrs while attending ST minor league workouts and before Trenton Thunder home games….They do a heck of a job!!
The Yankees would be insane to trade for Santana and then pay him $25mm per year.
They have embarked on a path through the young pitchers. They should stay the course.
vrsce: I agree, but at 28 Santana is not exactly old
Some people are acting as though Hughes will not be a great pitcher. Watch and see.
UtilityMan
November 25th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Great valid points made by Green Beret.
It would have been nice to see Gil Patterson named as bullpen coach….but Harkey was with Girardi in FLA so he has to have some of his guys.Plus perhaps Gill enjoys doing what he is doing.
I have watched Nardi Contreras,Gil Patterson,Mick Kelleher,Jack Hubbard…all the behind the scenes guys over the yrs while attending ST minor league workouts and before Trenton Thunder home games….They do a heck of a job!!
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Thanks UtilMan.
I would have loved having Patterson in pinstripes again, but, he’s adamant about staying close to home with his son. He’ll be in Spring Training and around all summer to fix pitchers up. Not sure if you read the article I put on this topic. If not, I’ll post it again. Eiland will be fine. He learned under Patterson, also.
I think Cashman will make a “reasonable” offer for Santana, then get outbid in the frenzy, and still have a pretty good rotation.
Andrea :
I hope you’re right. Let a team like Boston be foolish enough to deal away top prospects at the winter meetings in a panic state to keep him away from the Yankees. Cashman will have the last laugh for the 2nd time in less than a year. Does Gagne sound familiar ?
Andrea
November 25th, 2007 at 9:57 am
I think Cashman will make a “reasonable†offer for Santana, then get outbid in the frenzy, and still have a pretty good rotation.
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If his agent is smart, and, I’m sure he is, Santana will hit the market with a chance to pull in a 22-25 mil a year contract for 7-8 years. The Yanks may be the only team on this side of the Pacific that could do a deal of that size. I really don’t think he’ll sign unless get gets his choice of teams.
Eric: that’s what I’m thinking. And the Red Sox fans are insisting that they didn’t give up much for Gagne. And attaining Gagne didn’t end up costing them anything (did he pitch in the World Series at all? or in a playoff game that they WON?) But it was a bad trade.
I’m thinking the Mets will be the ones this time around to overdo it and trade away their entire future for Santana. For all we know, though, there could be west coast or central division teams salivating over him, too. We just don’t hear about it as much.
GreenBeret: But the Twins are also smart. They want to get something in return for Santana leaving. I bet they’d rather he leave this year than next, so they can get something for him this year and replenish their team/minor leagues a bit.
Andrea
November 25th, 2007 at 10:11 am
GreenBeret: But the Twins are also smart. They want to get something in return for Santana leaving. I bet they’d rather he leave this year than next, so they can get something for him this year and replenish their team/minor leagues a bit.
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Yes, the Twins are smart, but, Santana holds the cards. He can refuse any deal to a team not to his liking, so, that may lower the asking price to the chosen team, or, the Twins make the offer that they did before, and, if he turns it dowm, they don’t take such a big public relations hit, because they made a very fair offer to sign him. That PR is a big deal, going into a new park. It won’t be the Twins fault that the deal was turned down.
Andrea:
The Twins would get two top of the line draft picks next year in one of the better draft seasons in years.
Since Santana has a no trade, the Twins are at his mercy. He doesn’t have to do anything to benefit the franchise on his way out the door. As I said yesterday, being part of a trade does nothing to maximize his earning potential if a team has to trade players in or to sign him. He’ll make more in free agency unless he has a miserable year in 2008 or gets hurt.
Damn it. Someone told me he didn’t have a no-trade. I’ve been sitting here thinking the Twins held all the cards.
Oh, the lies.
GB: but draft picks for a team like the Twins may not mean much if they don’t have the money to sign them. So that all depends.
Andrea
November 25th, 2007 at 10:28 am
GB: but draft picks for a team like the Twins may not mean much if they don’t have the money to sign them. So that all depends.
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They sign draft picks. They just won’t go over a certain amount for established stars. Morneu will probably hit the market in about a year. Mauer’s a hometown kid, so, look for him to stay around, and he’s difficult to replace, being a catcher. If Lineriano comes back strong, they lock him up for the next 4 years, then end up trading him, unless they are contending by then. They have a ton of outstanding young pitchers….just no position players. They aren’t going to win with a DH hitting .260 and 1 homer or a .201 hitting 2nd baseman.
Andrea:
The Twins will use their welfare money to sign their draft picks.
Okay, I can’t possibly be the only one here that detests course assignments for subjects you really don’t care about in the least….
FOUND THIS IN BUSTER BROWN’S BLOG ON ESPN:
“Our colleague Peter Gammons is hearing that the Twins want this three-player package from the Yankees, in any Santana conversation: pitcher Phil Hughes and center fielders Melky Cabrera and Austin Jackson. Given that the Yankees will probably be asked to pay Santana a deal of at least six years and $150 million to convince him to stay, I’d be shocked if they seriously considered that trade. Because part of the equation for the Yankees or any other team, as they make decisions about a possible Santana deal, is this: Even beyond the question of swapping promising young players like Hughes and Cabrera and Jackson, how much money does it save them to have cheap players on their roster. How much will it cost them to replace a Cabrera or Jackson? Without Cabrera or Jackson, the Yankees might have to sign a veteran center fielder in their place in a year or two.
And it’s possible that within three or four years, as Santana gets older and Hughes progresses, that Hughes might become something close to what Santana will be then. And you could say the same for Clay Buchholz.”
Kill-Schill(ing)
November 25th, 2007 at 10:45 am
FOUND THIS IN BUSTER BROWN’S BLOG ON ESPN:
And it’s possible that within three or four years, as Santana gets older and Hughes progresses, that Hughes might become something close to what Santana will be then. And you could say the same for Clay Buchholz
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And this exactly why NYY shouldn’t pay the cost in players. The monetary cost in salary and replacement players would reach 250 million to try and get two players to replace Cano and Cabrera,along with paying Santana, plus losing the top two draft picks. In players alone, that’s 6 top level players plus the money.
The more you guys talk about the Twins, the more all I can think is “aw, poor Twins.”
Andrea :
I’ll bet that Boston would love to have the players they gave up to get Gagne, the rental bust. Right about now, they’d come in handy as part of a package for Santana. Now they have to deal Lester and Buchholz as part of a package or the Twins hang the phone up in their ear.
Kennedy, Cabrera, Betemit, Ohlendorff and Horne should be enough.
Santana has all the power on this with the NTC. There are only a handfull of teams that can afford him and that he is willing to go to in a deal. I think it is NY for him so it will come down to the Yankees or Mets and we all know the Mets cannot offer as much as the Yankees.
Nice X-Mas present for the Yankees!!!
Hughes, Cabrera and Jackson. No way. I wonder if that list will eventually tone down (the way the Phillies initial request of Hughes for Abreu became Hughes for a bag of balls–not to suggest Santana can be had for a bag of balls, just maybe not Hughes, Cabrera and Jackson).
Brian Cashman has said that he never wants to deal for the same player twice and that’s exactly what would happen. Giving up top talent and trying to sign Santana to a mega deal better than what Zito gets amounts to just that.
I get the whole quality vs quantity argument, but I would NEVER trade four players for one. Two, sure, three, maybe, but four? No way.
It’s not just Santana you have to pay for; you also have to find a way to replace the lost players, who will no doubt come cheaper than their replacements.
Shane
November 25th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Kennedy, Cabrera, Betemit, Ohlendorff and Horne should be enough.
Santana has all the power on this with the NTC. There are only a handfull of teams that can afford him and that he is willing to go to in a deal. I think it is NY for him so it will come down to the Yankees or Mets and we all know the Mets cannot offer as much as the Yankees.
Nice X-Mas present for the Yankees!!!
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The Twins will take a top of the line stArter, but, they want position players with the rest of the package.
If Santana wants to make money and choose his team, he will wait to become an FA. A trade offers him NOTHING except a lesser salary. A trade of any of our high ends kids would be nuts. Minn. is just throwing out feelers in hopes some one will be dumb enough to come close to their wishlist. If they don’t trade him, they get a couple of draft picks.
All this is bluster. They won’t get close to waht they are asking.
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 25th, 2007 at 11:06 am
I get the whole quality vs quantity argument, but I would NEVER trade four players for one. Two, sure, three, maybe, but four? No way.
It’s not just Santana you have to pay for; you also have to find a way to replace the lost players, who will no doubt come cheaper than their replacements
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As I stated earlier, the monetary cost would run 250 million in salary for Santana and two replacement players, plus 4 players and at least one, maybe two draft picks.
Old Yanks Fan
November 25th, 2007 at 11:18 am
If Santana wants to make money and choose his team, he will wait to become an FA. A trade offers him NOTHING except a lesser salary. A trade of any of our high ends kids would be nuts. Minn. is just throwing out feelers in hopes some one will be dumb enough to come close to their wishlist. If they don’t trade him, they get a couple of draft picks.
All this is bluster. They won’t get close to waht they are asking.
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Only the Mets are desperate enough to jump at it first, and a package of Milledge, Heilman and others won’t do it.
Here’s an interview with hank Steinbrenner & Steve Serby of the Post, most bizarre answer: Jennifer Love Hewitt is Hank’s favorite actress, ay yay yay!
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11252007/sports/yankees/serbys_sunday_qa_with____433113.htm?page=0
A deal involving Melky means the Yankees absolutely have to go after Aaron Rowand for CF. Brett Gardner or Austin Jackson are not ready yet. That means Cashman pays 3 times to get Santana. Two good young pitchers and Melky + a monster contract for Santana + hefty contract for Rowand.
Makes no sense.
A package of Action, Hughes, and Melky is way to much. I hope Cash doesn’t do it. Even if it means he goes up north.
Old Yankees fan, he has a no trade so he can veto anything.
GreenBeret7 The Mets dont have the players to trade for Santana. Humber and Pelfry didn’t look very good, and Milage has an attitude problem.
Jennifer – HIP HIP JORGE!
November 25th, 2007 at 11:37 am
GreenBeret7 The Mets dont have the players to trade for Santana. Humber and Pelfry didn’t look very good, and Milage has an attitude problem
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Yes, that’s the problem, which means that Gomez would need to be included and a substitute for Pelfrey, not named Humber. They were brutal last year. They’ll still be in it, though.
Buddy B:
Thanks for the link to the Hank interview.
Could do without the dictator comments, but the love for Hendrix and McQueen is more than redeeming!
Is this a telling quote?
All this talk of Santana will go nowhere unless Twins lower thier demands.
Just like it happenned with Gagne, Cash will not overpay.
In fact, I think that Santana will not be acquired by Yanks, someone like Mets will verpay and get him, then Yanks will re-enter the trade discussions for Miguel Cabrera. Then they may trade Giambi by paying most of his salary.
I guess I don’t understand. Why trade your future #1 starter for an established starter (Yours will be cheaper and will have a lot longer Yankee career than the established starter), and in the meantime you lose your starting center fielder (which will cost millions more to replace) and your future center fielder?
Again, this team will score 900 to 1000 runs again this year. We have the best closer in the game. We have youngsters who can relieve in the middle innings (Olendorf, etc.), and the best 3 rookie starters on the planet.
WHY shake that all up (remember Melky and Robbie are best buddies) for Santanna? Ok, he might win 5 games more than Hughes the first year or two. But, long term (didn’t Hank say the Yankees were going to look long term?), I wouldn’t trade Hughes for Santanna straight up (not even mentioning the 20-25 million dollar salary difference). Long term, Hughes is the future of this team, not Santana.
Keep the kids!
Tommy-
You think making fun of Jennifer Love Hewitt is dictator like?
Cuckoo!!! Cuckoo!!!
If Zito could get $ 126M, the agent for Santana will think nothing of looking at $ 150M plus knowing that Giambi and Mussina money are coming off the books plus new Stadium revenue.
Boston has Manny money coming off the books but that means no protection for Ortiz in the lineup. Not too enticing for a pitcher’s run support. Boston got a sample last summer of what it’s like without Manny and it almost cost them a 14 game lead.
The Mets definitely could get Santana, they would have to package 4-5 prospects or maybe more to do it.
The Twins could also just keep Santana, get the draft picks a la Zito with the A’s in 2006. They don’t have to trade him, which is why they are asking for a lot to begin with, it’s just the beginning of negotiating.
BBFan and where will Cabera play?
I don’t think the Mets have the prospects to get Santana, the Soxs and Yankees do.
Jennifer-
I disagree, the Mets could come up with enough in the end, since it’s likely the Yankees nor the RS will ante up big time for Johan.
The Dodgers are loaded & could get Santana as well.
I don’t think Giambi is going anywhere. From what I understand, he has a full no-trade clause, has said he doesn’t want to leave NY, and I can’t see anyone extending him to get him to waive it.
Who do the Mets have to give up?
I don’t think the Sox will get Santana.They will have to give up there few big pitching prospects(Clay,Lester) and they will be going into the next year with a $150 million budget.
with Santana’s $20 million plus thats over $170 million budget I don’t think they will become the Yankees that quick next year.
Andrea
November 25th, 2007 at 10:08 am
“Eric: that’s what I’m thinking. And the Red Sox fans are insisting that they didn’t give up much for Gagne. And attaining Gagne didn’t end up costing them anything (did he pitch in the World Series at all? or in a playoff game that they WON?) But it was a bad trade.”
Hi Andrea….just a quick note that I don’t certainly don’t speak for all sox fans but I along with several other sox fans I know definitely feel that we gave up too much for Gagne. I think he pitched one inning of the World Series when were were safely ahead by at least eight runs. With that being said I see the Sox being willing to include either Bucholtz or Lester along with Crisp and a strong prospect but I would be very surprised to see Ellsbury or Pedroia offered by the Sox.
Please for the love of God do not part with Cano or Melky, they have the potential to being the core of the Yankees in the next few years. All we need is to spend a butt load of money on ANOTHER pitcher that will not produce.
I’m not doing Melky,Hughes and Jackson. That’s just stupid giving up two CF in that deal. You’ll be giving up your current CF and your in the near future CF. Who would be playing CF then?
I rather just stay with what we have.
I am coming more and more to the point of view posted by Ralelen above, as well as others who have voiced similar sentiments.
I would have a hard time believing the Red Sox getting Santana for one Santana would rather be in NY, second he can veto any deal that he wants w/ his NTC, third Minny was ripped of David Ortiz from Boston you guys really think Minny would give Santana for that cheap of a price ?
If I’m Minny’s GM I’m asking for Pedroia,Bucholz, Ellsbury and Lester, they won a championship already and now I’m giving Santana away to a team that stole David Ortiz from me ..uh uh not happening, price will raise for Boston
Brandon,
Exactly how did Boston “steal” Ortiz from Minnesota? He was a free agent who any team could have signed including the Yankees?
Brandon-
David Ortiz was a FA, the Twins released him. One of the greatest pickup by the Sox for nothing.
exactly why Minny isn’t giving Santana away , I know he was a FA guys I mean it’s like they gave him for free so if the Minnesota GM is dealing w/ the Red Sox the price tag raises
maybe I’m in the minority here, which seems to be the case somewhat often, but I would prefer that the Yankees do not go after Johan.
In my opinion, he is NOT worth 3 great prospects and $150 mill. Wait and hope that he hits the FA market, and get him for just the $150 mill and no prospects (unless you count the draft picks we’ll lose).
Instead, put together a package of lesser prospects for Dan Haren. He is only 28 and has great stuff. Also, in Yankee Stadium he is 3-0 with a 3.15 ERA, has 16 strike outs in 20 innings.
In his career against the Yankees (big stage), he is 4-0 and has 38 strike outs in 43 innings. Impressive if you ask me
Some of you may enjoy this – the great Yankee Squirrel has gotten his own Topps baseball card. I’ve got a story and pictures up on my site for you to check out. Sopranos fans will like the name they chose for him on his card. Check it out: http://www.clubbronx.com/portal.php (story at the top of the page)
yeh big blue !! 7 – 7
I’m all for Haren, but it will take a really good offer to get him, he’s signed to an incredibly good deal for any team.
06:$0.5M, 07:$2.2M, 08:$4M, 09:$5.5M, 10:$6.75M club option ($0.25M buyout) (option becomes guaranteed if Haren reaches specific IP mark)
Maybe I am missing something here but why is Oakland willing to deal Haren who everyone agrees is a very good pitcher and has a low cost contract compared to most good pitchers?
Boston is in serious denial if they think Minnesota will go with either Buchholz or Lester. The deal will have to be both of them plus at least Crisp or forget Santana – - period.
Ray- good question. Espically since he isn’t close to free agency.
Dan- You’re not alone. I don’t want us giving up a boat load of prospects and paying a zillion dollars for him. I’d rather have Hughes, Kennedy et al do well for us not someone else.
Maybe I am missing something but Crisp doesn’t impress me at all.
ray-
Oakland is considering a firesale, though it’s not a definite as of yet. Beane will probably see what he can get for Haren, Blanton & Harden b/c the feeling is if the Angels have made a significant jump on them that if they can’t compete with them they will sell of & reload. It looks like the Angels have obviously done that especially sine they are still in the Cabrera sweepstakes.
Call me crazy but I don’t believe neither the Sox or the Yankees will get Santana. And if that’s the case I think he will make it to FA.
Ray –
As the Oakland A’s often do, it’s time to downsize knowing that they can’t compete with the Angels or Mariners next season. Haren and others will be dangled for prospects at the winter meetings.
Vinny Coco has no market for a Santana
it would be Lester, Bucholz, Ellsbury and that Lowrie kid, from Minnesota’s point they aren’t giving freebies to Boston.
Isn’t Oakland building a new stadium? Don’t they need to give fans a reason to continue to watch them. If you are right matt, it makes me more thankful every day that I root for the Yankees, we won’t see the Yankees holding a fire sale any time soon.
Jennifer :
Damon doesn’t have much of an arm but Crisp has even less.
The new Oakland stadium isn’t a totally done deal as of yet. That is why Billy Beane gets so much praise for having a pretty decent team that has made the playoffs the past few years, with such a low payroll, though they can’t seem to get over the hump.
If Johan Santana wants an ego the size of NYC, he should read this blog.
Jennifer,
Crisp has absolutely been a disappointment at the plate since Boston traded for him to replace Damon in center field. In the couple of years before he came to Boston he had respectable years at the plate but has gone downhill in Boston. However, he is very good in the field and is a good base runner. There are some reports out of Minnesota that they like Crisp so I don’t think it is out of the question that he would be part of a package deal for Santana. If it takes trading Lester, Bucholtz and Ellsbury as Brandon mentioned then I don’t see the Sox pulling the trigger on that trade. We are weighing the same things the Yankees are….how much do you give up of your young talent for an established ace like Santana.
Ray soxs management would be dancing in the streets if Minni wants Crisp.
Off topic, how are the Pats allowed to constantly put Brady on the questionable list and than play him. Every week he is on the injury report, yet he has never missed a game.
Coco may be going to Texas, they need a CF after Torii passed.
Buddy,
We will let Texas have Crisp if they return the guys we gave them for Gagne!!! Works me for me. LOL
ELI MANNING SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKSSSS!
ray-
Only if the Sox return Ortiz to the Twins b/c they stole him.
Peter Gammons is reporting that the Twins will want Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Austin Jackson in a package for Johan Santana.
Pull the trigger if he signs an extension!!
Good comeback Buddy! I give credit where credit is due. lol
…WTF. The ONE week I pick the Giants they decide not to show up!
I’m not in favor of dealing Cano (especially) and Melky, as well as young pitching, to pick up a player who will want an ultra-long contract.
it’s not all Eli the recievers are not going up the middle like the play intends, we’re not losing to the Vikings I don’t care what anybody says we’re not losing to this team
He can’t throw. The ball always wobbles wind or no wind. Not a great passer especially in the cold.
I was just going to say the samething.
Boston Dave that is way too much! I wouldn’t do that trade.
The Giants suck! I hate them. Why are they letting Chester run all over them! I need them to stop him, he is on the fantasy team of the team I am playing against.
Jennifer, how do you figure its way too much?
Ask the Celtics if it was way too much to give up some top prospects for a proven star (Garnett). Top prospects are great but odds are only a % will hit their potential. Santana is the BEST pitcher in baseball. It would immediately turn the Yanks into the team to beat. I’ll take it in a heartbeat (assuming they lock Santana up for 6 more years).
How Hughes looked very good late last year and he is supposed to be the real deal. Action he has done very well, and everyone thinks he is the real deal. Melky I can deal with trading.
Jennifer are you a Jet fan? Why do you hate the Giants?
Yes I am a Jet fan. I just don’t like them, no reason in particular. Although this week because they can’t stop Taylor for nothing!! He is helping the team I am against this week.
Jennifer, did Hughes look like he would end up being the best pitcher in baseball? Probably not. A solid #2? Sure.
Action was good for THREE months. Yes he is a great prospect but you dont get the BEST for nothing. In case you hadn’t noticed, you need dominant pitching to win in this league. The Yanks may have a chance to get one of the small handful of pitchers who can make them a world series winner. You don’t let this slide.
If you arent willing to give Hughes, Jackson, and Melky for Santana, then you obviously dont want Santana and we shouldnt even being discussing him.
SONOFABI*** !!!!! these fools look like they got drunk last night … laters people !!!!!
Why can’t we just give up Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, and Darell Rasner for him?
This is getting old position player wise. The Yankees just shouldn’t be trading away position prospects that are close to the majors. Why not try to trade Damon or Matsui instead? They’re serviceable and they only have 2 years left on their contracts. Instead everyone looks to trade the younger players. Even if it means you don’t get much back for them why not try to get rid of some of the dead weight on this team.
Just for the record I am only kidding.
Sorry meant this team is getting old.
Jax, and both Matsui and Damon look even more attractive cause their salaries are low compared to where the outfield $$ are going.
Peter Gammons reporting ??? Didn’t know he sobered up enough after the parade for his Red Socks.
Pete– great blog.
I’ve been saying all along I’m on the fence on this… If it costs Cano or Joba, then I say no…
If they can get it done, and actually get Santana, for a package of Phil Hughes, Alan Horne, Melky Cabrera and another prospect from a list of Brett Gardner, Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata, then I say they do it. Four ‘high-ceiling’ prospects for the best pitcher in modern day baseball is a fair price.
Could a Red Sox offer of Coco Crisp, Jon Lester and Craig Hansen be more enticing than Hughes, Horne, the Melkman and a top OF prospect?
Aren’t the Dodgers saving all their trade chips for Miggy “Red Lobster” Caberera? And I agree, Phil Humber, Mike Pelfrey and Lastings Milledge have all lost value over the last year, putting the Mets out of contention, I believe, for Santana.
Maybe the Mets culd pull off a Dan Haren or Joe Blanton trade with those pieces, but not Johan.
It will, as it always does, come down to the Red SOx and the Yankees. If the Sox are willing to include Clay Buchholz or Jocoby Ellsbury, in lieu of Coco and Hansen, then you have to wonder if they have the advantage…
I remember to 1997 when the Yankees and Sox both went hard after another ‘ace’ pitcher in his prime, a guy form the Montreal Expos named Pedro Martinez… The Sox won that one, with, of all guys, a package of Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr.
I don’t think, on the 10-year anniversary of that trade, that the Yankees will let the Sox or anyone else get the best pitcher in baseball via trade, especially when they have the pieces to do the deal.
Would it kill me to watch Melky, Horne or Hughes develop into a superstar wearing Twins pinstripes? Nah…not really.
Would it kill me to watch Joba Chamberlain and Robinson Cano become superstars in any uniform other than Yankees pinstripes? Yes, without a doubt.
I say they give up the farm to get Santana, as long as it doesn’t cost Joba or Cano… A true ace is about all that stands between the Yankees and winning World Series #27.
They have the bats, although the bullpen could use a tweak or two, and with a rotation of Johan Santana, CMW, Joba Chamberlain, Mike Mussina and IPK, with the possibility of Andy Pettitte returning, would be a force to be reckoned with.
And giving $50 million a year to the best hitter and best pitcher in the game is a small price to pay, especially with a new Stadium opening and the cash cow that is the YES network…
Please, Mr. Cashman, gives us an early X-Mas gift next week at the Winter Meetings.
If Peter “I toss Theo Epstein’s Salad” Gammons is right that the Twins want Hughes, Melky and Jackson….
PULL THE TRIGGER AND GIVE JOHAN (what is he, 28, 29?) A 6 YEAR, $150M DEAL!
WAKE UP CASHMAN!
Is it time to cut Eli?
Eli is awful!
Eli certainly isn’t his brother. I wonder if he was adopted.
Nice job by Ernie not caring that Eli rarely played in cold weather in college. He never does anything in the second half of the season. To me the weather has a lot to do with it. IMO.
Shamus, I’ve been saying that as well. Too many casual fans in here that don’t really get it think we can actually get good value for Giambi, Matsui, and Damon or we can get Santana without giving up one of the big 3 plus 1-2 top prospects. It’s getting harder and harder to weed through all the posts and find something reasonable or intelligent.
I know we can’t get Santana without giving up one of the big three, that doesn’t change my mind about wanting to do it. I don’t want to trade any of them.
Jennifer, that is a fair opinion… I’m referring more to those who say “that’s too much, we should try to get him for vetaran players and/or B-level prospects”.
Not wanting to trade the young talent is fine. But if the Yanks want him, they arent going to get him for much less so it’s pointless to make these ridiculous counter proposals.
Why do people constantly put Joba on such a higher level than Hughes?
Look at both of their minor league numbers as starters, Hughes is more impressive. Joba was so dominant because he never saw a batter more than once per game, and didnt have to throw more than 20 pitches.
IMO, Hughes is more valuable as a starter than Chamberlain right now
I hate this time of year for one thing, all the insanely stupid trade proposals.
good point Dan. I like Joba a little more but I think you’re right about Joba getting all the hype and it’s way too early to tell.
Dan people put a lot into velocity. Simply because Joba throws 99/100 to some that means he’s better than Hughes. Which is stupid.
Jax, I think its more than just the velocity. Joba showed strong command of 3 pitches (one of which is a high 90’s fastball with location). Velocity can be overrated for sure but its not as simple as you’re making it. Both are young and have a ton of potential. At least it’s a good argument to have if you’re the Yankees.
Well said Jax. People seem to forget that Hughes has the best curveball on the Yankees, and a good changeup that he is still fine-tuning and gaining trust in. AND that he has a very nice slider as well.
People just love that Joba has the potential to hit 100 mph (in relief appearances, expect more around 95/96 as a starter) and his filthy slider. In addition he has a nice curve, but only an okay changeup.
forgot one bit…. Phil Hughes also has exceptional control.
And Phil Hughes demonstrated that exceptional control of his well sitting on the DL for months over a hammy.
Thanks Boston Dave… I too am so tired of reading Giambi, Damon and Farnsworth in a three-way for Haren and Johan crap.
Would I hate to see Hughes go? Yes. But from what I’ve read all over the net, the Twins just aren’t that big on IPK.
They want a top pitcher (either Joba or Hughes) plus a top position player with MLB experience (Cano or Melky) they can plug into the lineup ASAP. In addition they may want one or two ‘top, high-ceiling AA or AAA’ pitching or position prospects (a list that could include Alan Horne, Humberto Sanchez, Ross Ohlendorf, Brett Gardner, A-Jax or Jose Tabata).
As I’ve said, Hughes, Melky and one of Tababta/Gardner/Jackson WOULD get it done.
But, COULD a package of Horne, IPK, Melky and Gardner get it done?
That, is what Cashman will have to find out….
Sensing a hint of sarcasm here…
But he did demonstrate it in the post-season where he was the arguably the Yankees best starter. I’ll compare him to Pettitte who you could argue was the best also.
W-L ERA IP K BB WHIP BAAHUGHES: 1-0 1.59 5.2 6 0 0.53 .143
PETTITTE: 0-0 0.00 6.1 5 2 1.42 .375
I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves
Boston Dave Joba also was only pitching one inning at a time rarely facing the same hitters. That got everyone excited too because he was dominating but I say look the way he was doing it. Had he been starting like Hughes facing hitters once he would have been getting hit just like Hughes was at times.
Jax, sure. I just dont like the argument that Joba throws fast so that’s why everyone thinks so highly of him. He didnt just get hitters out. He made them look foolish with a filthy slider, and a plus curve in addition to that high 90’s fastball. I don’t think there is a GM in baseball that would rather have Hughes, as of this moment, than Joba.
table didn’t really work above, hopefully this one does
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3948/tablegb5.jpg
ah [bleep]
made a typo in the table, the 9 under BB should be 0
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1685/tableoh0.jpg
Dan, that’s great. But 5IP isnt enough to make the case that Hughes pitched better than Joba. I think you make a good point that Joba is overshadowing Hughes too much, but right now do you really think Hughes is considered to be the better of the two by most GMs or scouts?
I wouldn’t read too much into what scouts have to say comparing the two because scouts too at time focus too much on velocity. Kennedy is/was predicted to be no better than a fifth starter. Many scouts aren’t sold on Kennedy. They aren’t fans of his because he doesn’t have the great fastball. Much to there surprise a few anonymously said they where a bit surprised how well he pitched in the minors and how quick he’s made it to the major leagues.
Dave, you have a point.
Here are tables of their post-season numbers (which you make a good point, 5 innings isnt enough). So I decided to include their minor league careers (Hughes, Joba, Kennedy). In the largest sampling by far, Hughes has the best WHIP and BAA (batting average against) and a better ERA than Joba.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/9131/tablehg1.jpg
Does anybody understand how nasty Santana will be.If a overrated Chien-Ming Wang can win 19 games,if a 40 year old Randy Johnson can win 17 Santana will win 20 games.
But the Yankees have to go into the winter meetings knowing Pettitte might not come back.And Santana is just turning 29.If we give him a six year Extension he will be only what two years outside of his Prime.
He is a more dominat Pettitte.You know someone who acutally strikeout hitters,starts the season not in the DL,maybe SAntana will play better against the Red Sox then Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang who sucked.
But hey most people want the Yankees to rebuild this year. two Years ago When Brian Cashman said he will go into the season with Bubba Crosby in center would have been a disater.Brian is gonna trade one of these pitchers.Prepare and be Thankful it’s only one Big Pitching prospect,a overrated Center Fielder and a outfield prospect who has only been good for three months.