Countdown to Winter Meetings begins
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- November
- 26
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The Winter Meetings get started one week from today in Nashville, Tenn.
In the interim, perhaps the Yankees will acknowledge that they have signed Jose Molina, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera and Alex Rodriguez. The 40-man roster is at 39, so at least three players are getting lopped off at some point. Do everybody a favor and release Carl Pavano at least.
More importantly, Brian Cashman and Hank Steinbrenner have to decide what is too much for Johan Santana. Here is my exceedingly unofficial list:
Untouchable
Robinson Cano
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Fight to keep
Austin Jackson
Trade bait
Ian Kennedy
Alan Horne
Melky Cabrera
Jose Tabata
Now keep in mind that the Twins are excellent at talent analysis. Santana was once a Rule 5 draft pick. They could well be more interested in players whose names haven’t come up. Dan McCutchen, Jeff Marquez, guys like that. Just because we know who Jose Tabata is doesn’t mean the Twins think he’s any good.
Unless the Twins are blown away, they’ll wait to make sure they get everybody’s best offer. A new GM doesn’t trade his best player without making sure of that.
The irony of this is that Twins owner Carl Pohlad is wealthier than the Steinbrenners. If he wanted, he could keep Santana. But it so far doesn’t appear he wants to.
This entry was posted
on Monday, November 26th, 2007 at 10:11 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Interesting, Pete…I guess Tabata’s lack of power thus far has caused you to deem him less valuable than Jackson? Or is it that Jackson is, in your opinion, closer to the majors and so he has more value to the Yanks?
In all the stuff I read, Tabata is still ranked higher than Jackson, but that’s based on ceiling, not what they’ve shown to this point.
hopefully, that’s the exact list Cashman has on a Post-It note next to his PC. in total agreement there, Pete.
Santana may well be on the downside. the Yanks should stay away from any overpriced pitching talent. How soon we forget about the Great Randy Johnson.The object is winning a World Championship and building the foundation for a string of titles thru the infusion of youth from a well stocked farm system.
I have no desire to defend Pohlad, but given the value of the YES network, are you still suggesting that he is a financial equal in this?
What would have happened to the Yankees if Pohlad bought them instead the Stienbrenners? Even with all of thier quirks we should thank God that they own the Yanks
Hot of the press! Hope you had a good vacation, Pete.
Don’t you think that Betemit could be good trade bait in the Santanna trade as well? He’s a proven major leaguer he could easily be a starter.
My issue is the possibility of the Yankees trading two or three other players in addition to the ‘main’ guy…
the Yankees have to replace every player they trade, and the options out there aren’t always the best ones.
Mitchell’s Eleven – Hopefully Cashman has a mac and not a pc. I would hate for him to be about to close a deal with us getting santana….
but he can’t – his computer has blue screened..
Pohlad is worth 2,800,000,000 dollars the stienbrenners piece of the Yanks and Yes come nowhere near that
I think alot of it is that RJ could not handle NY… Santana might not be able to handle new york either… That is one of the benefits of farmhands coming up thru the system…
whozat
November 26th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Interesting, Pete…I guess Tabata’s lack of power thus far has caused you to deem him less valuable than Jackson? Or is it that Jackson is, in your opinion, closer to the majors and so he has more value to the Yanks?
In all the stuff I read, Tabata is still ranked higher than Jackson, but that’s based on ceiling, not what they’ve shown to this point.
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I wouldn’t be overly concerned about Tabata’s lack of power. The FSL is a notorious pitcher’s league with big parks. Tabata is barely 19 and weighs around 170 or so, had a broken hamate bone and a cyst in his wrist. The fact that he was able to hit at all, much less hit .307 with any power at all should tell you just how good he really is. I watched him some this year, but, saw a lot of him at the age of 17 last year in the Sally League. He’s an all around special talent.
i hate to say it, but i bet theo has a mac.
Pete-
In Taipei for a few days on business, did you spend anytime here when you were working on the CMW book ? Any recommendations on where to eat, etc…
Even though theo has a mac – i still don’t like him…
Harley Peyton
November 26th, 2007 at 10:24 am
I have no desire to defend Pohlad, but given the value of the YES network, are you still suggesting that he is a financial equal in this?
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Pohlad is worth 3-4 billion dollars, he’s well into his 80s. He’s got enough money to by the Red Sox, Yankees and the Dodgers, and have enough left over to buy hotdogs and a couple of beers.
if Pohlad wasn’t willing to spend the $150M to keep Santana, he should have used it to put a roof on their new stadium.
that decision is going to cause confusion and regret for decades.
We are lucky to have george. He wants to win… Pre yes network – George was probably in the bottom half of wealth from an owner standpoint
me either, el comaduce….
and i agree with you about not trading away our young talent for santana. his stats have decreased STEADILY since 2004.
his batting average, OBP, and SLG against have risen from year to year since 2004. he also gave us a career-high 33 homers in 2007 in 219 innings, his lowest total since he was split between the rotation and bullpen in 2003. his WHIP also broke 1.00 for the first time since 2003.
he was like 0-5 against the indians, 0-1 red sox, and lost almost all of his games against the tigers as well.
I seriously doubt the Yanks will be willing to give up what the Twins will ask for in order to get Santana.
Although it is fun to speculate, I think if a trade happens the Met’s are the more likely team.
imagine being able to own a team – just for a second…. MINDBLOWING
So the genius who told us that Don Mattingly was a lock to be the next Yankee manager and that aliens would land in Central Park before A-Rod re-signed has now informed us that Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes are untouchable. That almost guarantees that both will be gone before Christmas.
Bob-
Since when is 28 years old the downside of your career, it’s actually the beginning of his prime time years. Yeah, he gave up more HR’s than he has in the past & his ERA was up a bit, but his #’s are in line with the past couple years. If you can get him for the trade bait players listed by Peter, you make that deal.
C’mon now Robert.
Change of subject:
Anyone know when 2008 schedule comes out?
How about individual game tickets on sale?
I am trying to do some long-term planning on a trip to the stadium. Anyone have any suggestions on where to stay in NYC?
El Comaduce
November 26th, 2007 at 10:44 am
We are lucky to have george. He wants to win… Pre yes network – George was probably in the bottom half of wealth from an owner standpoint
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Stei9nbrenner went bust a couple of times. Once in the ’70s and again in the late 80’s-early 90’s. I think he only had about 2 million of his own money in the team when he bought it with nearly 30 others, and even then he had to put up American Ship Building to do that. Imagine George Steinbrenner tied up with 30 minority stockholders.
The best line about him from that era: “Nothing is more limited than being a limited stockholder with George Steinbrenner.”
yanks rule:
here is a great place in my old neighborhood, the upper west side.
http://www.ontheave-nyc.com/main.htm
easy to get to the stadium form there. take #2 train from 72 st ( steps from hotel) change to # 4 at grand concourse in the bronx
Pete, I agree with the untouchables, but realistically, I doubt the Twins will make any trade that doesn’t include Phil Hughes or Joba for Santana.
Yanksrule57-
Not official, but pretty darn close.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/.....hp?t=67698
The Yankees website should tell you on sale dates for tix, it should be soon though.
Take a look at Josh Becketts #’s before this past year, pitchers have down years, & if you call Johan’s year a bad one or one in decline, you are not thinking clearly.
http://www.baseball-reference......jo02.shtml
buddy B, not only am i thinking clearly, i am merely stating facts ( stats ) on santana.
i’m not saying he isn’t a great pitcher, but his numbers have gotten steadily worse.
if you want to pay a guy like that 150 million after giving up three great prospects, fine.
but i don’t.
Again, keep the kids. Melky should be on the untouchable list. So should Ian Kennedy.
DadinIowa – Who would you trade for the best pitcher in baseball? (Santana)
agree on this list.
while i know it’s a long shot, and its being reported that the Twins want Hughes and AJax, i would tell them you can have Melky, plus one of those two (Hughes OR AJax), and another player.
If they pick Hughes, no Kennedy. If they pick Ajax, no Tabata.
If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future, but only if they feel Gardner is more than one year away, or wont be a full time MLB player. Rowand isnt what he was this past year, but he can cover a ton of ground in CF and can add a little RH punch to balance the bottom of the lineup. I wouldnt touch Andruw Jones.
DadinIowa,
I have to disagree with you on Melky and Ian Kennedy.
All indications point towards Austin Jackson becoming an ML center fielder. We could part with Melky AND Kennedy in a trade for Santana, make due with Damon, Matsui, Abreu, and Duncan in the OF and/or look for a cheap, viable replacement for the short term.
Having said that, giving up Kennedy and Melky isn’t even close too enough for Santana, so it is moot.
Last year tickets went on sale about Dec 20th. I anticipate it will be around the same date again.
Don’t stay at hotels on 8th ave. If you have a particular hotel in mind, ask here before booking it. I wouldn’t go for a cheap hotel if I were you.
mike f-
I am not interested in Rowand or Damon playing CF, if the acquire Johan, but he is not in decline.
I agree with jake… i would not mind a defense first center fielder for a while… We can carry that with a-rod at third. I really think giambi is going to have a good year for us this year… I have no idea why – i just think he will play with a bit of a clear conscience…
I agree on Giambi, plus he’s in a contract year, not that helped Andruw Jones.
Jake,
Let me see, you end up trading Robbie’s buddy (that can’t help his production); you replace a good fielding center fielder who is young with another 30+ year old replacement at the cost of $10M more than you were paying; and for that privilege you get to pay the new pitcher $25M per year (who will be 29 this season) and lose a 21 year old who is projected to be another Mussina (250+ wins so far).
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If Santana wants to come here (which has been reported, evidently), he will use his no trade to make sure he gets here either through a trade or through free agency next year. If he doesn’t care where he goes, let some other team overpay in money and proven young talent for him.
buddy b, i don’t care who you want in center field…i haven’t mentioned the position today. and if you LOOK at santana’s stats he IS declining. you seem to be obsessed with defending him, but you are not presenting the evidence as i have.
Given that Tabata is a better prospect than Austin Jackson, that doesn’t make a ton of sense. Both should be untouchables though and the Yankees shouldn’t go after Johan.
DadinIowa,
I understand your argument and agree that Santana will be an expensive man to keep around. On the topic of Melky and Robbie being best buddies, I highly doubt that will hurt Cano’s production. Dude is coming in to his own and is going to be a legit force in that lineup before you know it.
As it relates to letting some other team have fun with Santana’s new contract, I don’t disagree, but the thought of him going to Boston just scares the living crap out of me. Wouldn’t be a good scenario.
And I know we haven’t talked about this, but any injury speculation regarding Santana is unimportant. There are no indications that he is injured in any way and since we all know the Yankees are better than the Twins, we should assume that he’ll do better for the Yankees than he did for the Twins…last year anyways.
Johan Santana has stated that he loves to pitch in the big stage of New York. If that be the case, he’d be wise to wait for free agency and see the talent it would take to get him remain with the Yankees to help him attain some championships and rings.
DadinIowa – i agree with your thinking. I would worry about cano, him and melky are uncomfortable close.
the IPK comparisons i have seen stated that he was Mussina with less fastball… Are they talking about the mussina with the orioles? Or our Mussina…
Is it me or was mike throwing alot harder when he faced us as an Oriole
mike f-
If you get Johan, you will definitley be trading Melky, therefore you need a CF to replace him, is it worth signing Rowand to a huge contract in addition to signing Johan to a $150M, I don’t think it would be the best idea. If you are going to make that move for any pitcher in the league right now, it’s Santana. Big deal his WHIP broke 1, it was 1.073, you know how incredible that is? A few more HR’s, that’s just a couple more fastballs, strikeout pitchers always give up HR’s, the same can be attributed to BA, OBP, & SLG.
Did he have a down year for him, absolutely. Becekett’s ERA was over 5, he could easily have been chosen for the Cy Young this year.
If anything , Cashman can get Johan for less according to him being in decline according to you.
“If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future”
serious question, at what point does the money become a dealbreaker?
Rowand is going to get $14M/year after Hunter got $18M.
Santana wants a $25M extension.
you now took 2 players (Hughes and Jackson) who can make
try this again:
“If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future”
serious question, at what point does the money become a dealbreaker?
Rowand is going to get $14M/year after Hunter got $18M.
Santana wants a $25M extension.
you now took 2 players (Hughes and Jackson) who can make about $1M and traded them for 2 players who will make $55M/year after the luxury tax.
and since i believe Jackson will probably be better than Rowand by 2010, i am not sure you even improved your team by very much overall.
Hughes will most likely never be as good as Santana, and Jackson is still far enough away to not really know his true impact, but if i were making the decision, i think i’d take my chances with Hughes/Jackson + $54M/year over Santana/Rowand.
everyone thinks Santana is the Yankees ONLY chance to land a true #1 starter, but you never know who will emerge or become available in the next year or 2.
“…putting All-Star Game starter Dan Haren in play for a possible blockbuster trade.
Haren (15-9, 3.07 in 34 starts) has been one of the American League’s most reliable starters in the three seasons since he was acquired from St. Louis. He is under Oakland’s control for three more years at the ridiculously affordable total of $16.25 million.”
Does anyone think we should trade Alan Horne and Jose Tabata with cash for Haren??? Lol. I may be underestimating Harens worth a little bit, but I know it wouldn’t cost as much as Santana….
I’m not sure why any of our young pitching prospects is on the untouchable list in the sense that you would always be willing to give up a single pitcher (as part of a larger trade) for a much better pitcher. If the Twins wanted Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana, as long as the rest of the deal makes sense, you have to do it b/c Santana is better than Hughes. It’s likely that the Twins would want a very high level position player like Robbie Cano plus a position player prospect, but as long as we’re talking about losing only one pitcher in the deal, you have to do it. What the rest of the trade looks like then becomes the issue, but when you’re talking about an elite, young pitcher like Santana, none of your picthers should be on any kind of “off limits” list.
There’s no point in Santana being the centerpiece of the winter meeting as far as the Yankees are concerned. Getting the bullpen right should be Brian Cashman’s priority before any thoughts of Santana take place.
Beckett’s 2006 was not because of some random statistical fluctuation.
he had blisters that made it difficult for him to thrown his curve with any bite. as a result he was basically a fastball pitcher who wasn’t fooling anyone.
it wasn’t an “adjustment to the AL” year. it wasn’t an “off year”.
he was “injured”. he had blisters that affected his pitching.
his situation has absolutely nothing to do with Johan’s, so i wouldn’t use that as any sort of evidence that Johan will bounce back.
Hmmmm….. I agree. I think IPK is a harder thrower than Moose is now, but only a mph or two over Moose in Baltimore.
I’m not even scared about Boston getting Santana. If they get him, they will pay in talent too. Besides, Santana in Boston is NOT going to keep us from the playoffs. Remember, we’ll have 900-1000 runs scored again this year with (hopefully) a better SP staff that doesn’t include Pavano or Igawa or Chase Wright, etc.
We have beaten Santana in the playoffs before, and we can do it again. Keep the faith in our youngsters. Keep the kids.
I would like to agree with all who think Santana is overpriced. I think it is time we started using our young talent instead of trading them for players who think they are God’s gift. We have a boat load of young players coming up sthru the system. Wait for them to develop. It isn’t going to be the end of the world if we don’t win it all this year. Why not wait for a year. Everything doesn’t have to be done right now. Learn some patience people.
I dont want to lose Melky and Kennedy but I dont want to see Santana go to the redsuxs. That is the last thing we need to have happen.
i’d much rather they make a trade ( not hughes, IPK or Joba)
for danny haren…he’s sturdy and would cost us much less than santana.
i would miss melkys arm in center but having our ace as a number 2 behind arguably the best pitcher in baseball would be great…
Signing Rowand to a multi-year deal would be a big mistake.
Here’s hoping the Yanks either get a good deal on Santana by virtue of his NTC, or have the good sense to pass.
“I’m not sure why any of our young pitching prospects is on the untouchable list in the sense that you would always be willing to give up a single pitcher (as part of a larger trade) for a much better pitcher. If the Twins wanted Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana, as long as the rest of the deal makes sense, you have to do it b/c Santana is better than Hughes. ”
i keep reading this everywhere, but it’s just not that simple.
there is roughly a $200M difference between Hughes and Santana and you are simply ignoring that aspect of it.
the Yankees are rich and can afford it, but that doesn’t mean they SHOULD afford it.
Santana wants a $150M extension, which is $210 million with the luxury tax. Hughes will make about $20M total over the same period.
let’s say Hughes tops out as a #2 starter and Johan is a #1 starter for the life of his contract (which is not guaranteed either).
can the Yankees use that extra $190M to make up the difference between Hughes and Santana by improving in other ways? i’d bet they can.
Having Andy Pettitte return and putting together a reasonable deal for Dan Haren is the ultimate improvement in the starting rotation for 2008. Santana is going nowhere until his free agency. This gives the prime young pitching another year to develop their finishing touches.
Concern over what Boston does makes no sense whatsoever. They may be dumb but not stupid in giving up Buchholz, Lester, and others to get Santana. The Yankees will win out in any bidding war for Santana one year from now.
Pete’s list is right on. Unfortunately, a deal that doesn’t include Joba, Phil, or Cano doesn’t make it past the door.
Pete what about the theory that they will not make the signings official until after the Rule V draft so they can protect more players that way?? We on the blog seem to think that is the reason they have not made official these signings as they would have to remove 4 players from the protection list and they just added 3 last week.
Having some experience living out in Twinkie land….
The Pohlads are the classic example of people who know the price of everything and the value (outside of business) of nothing. I like owning a piece of a Pohlad-run investment, but not being a fan of a team they own. The competitive Twins teams of recent past are a result of Terry Ryan’s skill at building a scouting & development organization, the only way they compete (in what is not exactly a small market, either, they command most of a large 4-state area). This is the only way the team could survive economically, since Minnesota fans are notorious for staying away in droves when the team isn’t winning. They’d, very literally, rather go fishing.
Carl Pohlad is the man who determined that elimination of the team via contraction was the best future for it, after all. It took a court decision over the Metrodome lease to prevent contraction from happening. That is not the approach of a man who’d go a little soft so Johan could throw Opening Day at the new park.
That said, a package headlined by Melky Cabrera as the ‘proven’ position player coming back won’t get Johan. Smith is getting hammered over Torri-for-nothing and this trade will have to look decent. If Johan softens to 5/25+ with option vesting, a deal for Cano & Melky & prospects might get it done. But I think he winds up with the Angels, who have pieces to move and money to spend. Even if nothing happens this winter, watch what Cash does midseason if the SP oldies & kids aren’t making it happen in the first half of ‘08. Stay tuned, more drama to come.
Oy ya como va, screw Santana, I want Haren!
Pete,
The Twins know very well who Jose Tabata is. Since he was a Top 30 prospect on nearly all lists at the age of 17, I’m sure any talent evaluator in baseball knows the name and knows the potential.
I can’t believe how so many people here overrate Yankees prospects and underrate the best pitcher in the game.
“Santana is in decline”??!! I’ll take a guy who puts up a 3.33 ERA in a bad year any day.
And I’m not sure why people think Melky is the second coming of Joe D. I like him, he’s got spunk, but he hits about .280. I like his defense, but he’s still expendable. And Cano will not start hitting .240 just because his friend is gone; that’s just silly.
I agree we shouldn’t give up too much, but you have to give something to get something. And this something is the ace that we need to put us over the top.
I’d give Hughes, Melky and Betemit. This would give them the CF and 3B they need, plus a top young pitcher. YOu may say this won’t get it done, but the price may drop eventually as time goes by and Minny fears losing him for only two draft picks in return.
I think the issue is risk. I love Phil Hughes and the rest of the “kids” and I would love nothing better than to watch these guys grow up and be successful with the Yanks for the next 10-15 years. Phil Hughes is still, however, a prospect. He could end up being a total bust, a journeyman, a servicable starter, an ace or anywhere in between (remember a guy named Sam Millitello?? Exactly). Santana is a proven #1 and barring injury (a possibility which exists for both Santana and Hughes) getting him carries less risk than keeping Hughes. That’s why he makes more money and that’s why you’d make the trade if he becomes available. And regarding the money, I totally agree with your assesment, but I just don’t think that applies to the Yanks. I really can’t envision a scenario where they make a trade decision (or make a decision not to make a trade) and money is even a small part of that decision. Should it be a part of the decision-making process? Sure. I just can’t ever see that as a motivating factor for them.
“Phil Hughes is still, however, a prospect.”
depends how you look at it. he is a prospect.
but he is also the Yankees #3 starter next year.
he was ALREADY a league average starter in the AL East at 21 years old in an injury plagued season.
so, while his ceiling is certainly still up for debate, i think the likelihood of him being a total bust is small.
“I can’t believe how so many people here overrate Yankees prospects and underrate the best pitcher in the game.”
don’t lump everyone together. not all of us who are hesitant to trade Hughes think Melky is the second coming of Joe D. i wouldn’t hesitate to trade Melky in the right deal.
I believe we should make a concerted effort( again! almost an annual ritual) to improve the bullpen.David Riske is intriguing as well as Troy Percival.We need a lefty out there so maybe we have not seen the last of Ron Villone,or gasp, Sean Henn.
If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!
“the Yankees are rich and can afford it, but that doesn’t mean they SHOULD afford it”
Not sure what this SHOULD means?
Immoral to throw money around like that?
Or is it some notion that this expenditure would empty the coffers and keep them from buying other players? Doubtful…
“so, while his ceiling is certainly still up for debate, i think the likelihood of him being a total bust is small.”
This could be completely true, but what is also true is that whatever probability you attach to Phil Hughes being a bust, the probability for Santana is far lower. What is very likely is that Santana is the better pitcher between the two for the next few years, and that’s what the Yanks have to be concerned about.
i trust the yanks , they will make the right trade….in the past 10 years name one bad trade…the first randy johnson trade u can say was bad but if u look at it deep the yanks got the best of it and if u add the most recent trade of randy back to the dbacks the yanks realy got the best of the dbacks…cashman may make owfull signings but he makes great trades..look how good the bobby abreu trade looks…the only bad trade is when the yanks traded desamo marte for enrique wilson(thats a joke) but other then that name one…….
Hughes can’t be the Yankees #3 starter next year for inning limit reasons. Same with Joba. Joba and Hughes have to be the 4th and 5th starter to make sure their innings don’t pass 150 – 160. Don’t be surprised if they go with a six man rotation for a little while if needed. The only one of the big three that could be a #3 next year would be Kennedy.
The question is how much better will Johan be than Phil Hughes or whatever other pitcher they trade for him. Is Santana going to be 200Mil better than Hughes?
I doubt it. It’s not like the Yankees can not afford Santana but the question remains is the opportunity cost justified.
Not sure what this SHOULD means?
Immoral to throw money around like that?”
no. of course not.
“Or is it some notion that this expenditure would empty the coffers and keep them from buying other players? Doubtful…”
not quite.
it’s really not that complicated. all i am talking about is getting the MOST for your money.
would you rather spend $50M on Santana/Rowand or $30M on Hughes, Jackson, and Miguel Cabrera?
which would produce more wins for the yankees? i’d guess Hughes/Jackson/Cabrera.
IOW, spend that money, but not on players that will ALSO cost tons of good talent just to acquire that player.
there will be other pitchers available if the Yankees don’t get Santana.
I would like to keep Melky, but I do think he is a tradeable commodity.
I’m not so certain about a trade for Santana. I hate the idea of having to give up so many prospects and I absolutely abhor the idea of letting Robinson Cano be included in any trade. I’m just a little gun-shy – the Yankees have not been very lucky of late in the acquisition of starting pitchers. Of course, Santana is one of the very best in the league right now, and if they are set on getting him, it wouldn’t be the end of the world, I guess.
However, if a trade happens and Cabrera is involved, what would anyone thing of taking a flyer on Andruw Jones? Since he’s coming off an absolutely horrendous year, perhaps he could be acquired for one year plus option and a relatively small amount of money. I think he is far too talented a player to have had his skills totally diminish so rapidly. Plus, he’s not all that old.
Of Hughes and Kennedy, if I had to choose to keep one, I’d keep Hughes. But it’s a very lukewarm choice, since I don’t want to have to give up anyone!
THE YANKEES WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP 3 TOP YOUNG TALENT TO GET A 29yr OLD PITCHER WHO HAS NOT BEEN THAT DOMINANT AS OF LATE, AND WILL REQUIRE $25M/YR TO SIGN FOR AT LEAST 6 yrs.
I WOULD MUCH RATHER LIKE TO SEE THE YANKEES OFFER THE SAME PACKAGE THEY ARE OFFERING FOR SANTANA (KENNEDY, HORNE, TABATA) TO OAKLAND FOR DON HARN AND HOUSTO STREET. THEY WOULD GET THE GOOD, SET UP RELIEVER THEY DESPERATELY NEED FOR MO (AND THE RELIEVER OF FUTURE), PLUS A GOOD STARTER (ALMOST AS GOOD AS SANTANA).
BOTH ARE YOUNGER (HAREN 27, STREET 23) THAN SANTANA, AND WOULD FILL TWO AREAS OF NEEDS, WITHOUT HAVING TO TIE UP THAT MUCH MONEY IN LONG CONTRACT FOR A DECLINING PITCHER.
“Joba and Hughes have to be the 4th and 5th starter to make sure their innings don’t pass 150 – 160.”
i’m not sure Hughes’ cap is that low. he threw 146 innings in 2006. i could see it being 170-180 innings.
Bob-
Did you say SAntana is in a downhill.I mean two Cy Youngs in three years.Can a guy have a off year like Manny,Ortiz.Mussina is in a downhill.
Did you compare a Prime Santana to a 40 year at he’s was the problem not pitching in the A.L or pitching in New York.Unless you are Pedro a 3.33 Era and 230 strikeouts is something overrated Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang and unless you are gonna rebuild you ain’t gonna go three rookies in your rotation.
MiLB.com 2008 Top 50 Prospects: 41-50
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....p50/y2008/
41. Ian Stewart- Rockies
42. Alcides Escobar- Brewers
43. Jeremy Jeffress- Brewers
44. Tyler Colvin- Cubs
45. Radhames Liz- Orioles
46. Jeff Clement- Mariners
47. Johnny Cueto- Reds
48. Carlos Triunfel- Mariners
49. Austin Jackson- Yankees
50. Dexter Fowler- Rockies
“If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!”
Damon could play CF for a year.
i would guess that a healthy Damon outperforms Melky next year offense + defense.
Jay,
Why would Oakland trade Street?
1. Pittsburgh has a new front office group. Get lefty reliever Damaso Marte for DeSalvo, Henn, and cash considerations.
2. Get RH starter Dan Haren from Oakland for Clippard, Rasner, Bruney, and Sardinha.
3. Sign FA lefty reliever Ron Mahay and FA righty reliever David Riske or re-sign Vizcaino.
Consider the winter meeting a success until Andy Pettitte calls to say he’s coming back.
jay-
I would go after DAn Haren or Houston Street but Satnana is still a better pitcher then Haren and we have to hope the Angels get Cabera and the A’s go though a fire sale.
Jay – Do you honestly think that a Kennedy/Horne/Tabata package would be enough to get Dan Haren AND Huston Street?
“What is very likely is that Santana is the better pitcher between the two for the next few years, and that’s what the Yanks have to be concerned about.”
no it isn’t.
the yankees have to be concerned with building the best TEAM possible.
you guys are OBSESSED with having Johan Santana b/c you just watched Beckett kick ass in the playoffs and now you think the yankees HAVE to have Santana to win the WS.
they don’t.
every single team that has ever won the WS has done it without Johan Santana, believe it or not.
do the yankees need good starting pitching? absolutely.
is Johan Santana the ONLY good starting pitcher in MLB? not at all.
why is everyone focusing on upgrading the Yankees via ONE SPOT in their rotation? there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. and i can’t believe people can’t see this.
for the record, i would LOVE to have Johan. love it. i am not the one trying to argue that Johan is on a steep decline. my point is simply that for every player there is an acceptable cost in terms of money and talent, and there are some people here who think that cost is irrelevant.
or not irrelevant, but they think Hughes/Melky/Ajax + $200M is NOT too high.
that is simply where we disagree. it’s too high.
I really don’t think money has anything to do with it. Any kind of opportunity cost discussion assumes that paying Johan might prevent the Yanks from making some other deal with a different team, and I think the Yanks are far from hitting some kind of financial ceiling. History tells us that when the Yanks want someone, they pay the price. These kinds of “value” discussions don’t seem to enter into the decision. Is Santana today worth 20x, or 50x what Phil Hughes is today? Probably not. But I think that the Yanks look at Santana and see an upgrade over Hughes in ability and that’s why they’d make the trade. Again, all this assumes that the rest of the deal makes sense, but I see no reason to exclude one of our young guys when we’d be getting such a top-end pitcher in return.
I’m not so sure Haren will cost much less than Santana in terms of talent considering their contract statuses.
Which is more valuable over the next 3 years? Santana or Haren + 40-50 million? A lot of teams would probably say choice B.
In essence, Brian Cashman is not interested in paying twice for the same player. Why should he deal top farm products and see the work of building up the farm system go down the drain and pay a pitcher an outrageous amount to pitch every 5 days. Is Santana THAT MUCH of a difference maker ????
“2. Get RH starter Dan Haren from Oakland for Clippard, Rasner, Bruney, and Sardinha”
no, including Sardinha is just too much.
seriously, i think this MIGHT win the award for the worst trade proposal in the history of this blog.
and trust me, that is saying something.
dealmaker why would they want to take our garbage?
hmmm – I refuse to believe that he was even remotely serious when proposing that. My faith in human intelligence would be obliterated.
Surely you jest, right? They’d at least want a bag of Doritos as well.
I would rather send Hughes with less prospects to the padres for Peavy or even lesser package for Oswalt.
I dont think Santana is worth giving up our best young players and paying a rediculous contract for.
It would be flat stupid to trade Hughes for Santana for a number of reasons, age, money, projection, etc. It’s a good think the Yanks aren’t stupid.
Now keep in mind that the Twins are excellent at talent analysis. Santana was once a Rule 5 draft pick. They could well be more interested in players whose names haven’t come up. Dan McCutchen, Jeff Marquez, guys like that. Just because we know who Jose Tabata is doesn’t mean the Twins think he’s any good.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wow, that is totally plagiarized from something Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger said on MLBTradeRumors.com.
In his interview he said: “The thing to remember in dealing with the Twins, however, is that they might not always be after the prospects everybody knows about. The Twins pride themselves on being able to identify and acquire big-time prospects at the Class A level. Players who have come to the Twins’ system at the A-ball level over the years include Jason Bartlett, Lew Ford and Joe Mays, as well as Johan Santana himself and a skinny little hitter whose name at the time was David Arias but later changed his last name to Ortiz and went on to achieve some measure of fame with the Boston Red Sox.
“The Twins’ scouts can spot talent when it’s very young. So there may be some players in the Yankees’ system (and in those of other interested teams) that the Twins would like and we don’t even know about yet.”
Cite a source when it’s so blatant, Pete.
If Pettitte comes back I honestly do not see a great need for the Yankees to add another starter. As great as Fausto Carmona pitched against the Yankees, the Yankees were still one Joe Torre brain freeze away from tying the series against Cleveland. If the Yankees make it back to NY tied 1/1 in that series is there anyone here who thinks they wouldn’t have closed out the series at home?
Secondly as good as Josh Beckett was against Cleveland, the rest of their starting staff was horrible.
Again I ask is there anyone here who thinks the Yankees couldn’t have beat the Red Sox in the ALCS.
I know that’s a lot of ifs but if Torre simply pulls the team off the field during the midges infestation we are all probably sitting here talking about how the Yankees are going to win again next year.
Johan/Peavy/Haren or whoever would be a nice luxury, but none of those guys are absolutely necessary, especially if Andy comes back.
Outside of Joba, I don’t buy any of the “untouchables” Pete has listed up there.
I think Hughes is available only in a deal for Santana.
If the Yankees are going to walk away from Johan over Phil Hughes, I’ll eat my shoe.
You have to give up great potential to land an All Star.
All Hughes is, at this point, is great potential. He has never thrown 200 innings in the big leagues.
Do I see a great future for Hughes? Sure.
Do I think he’s going to have the career of Johan? Probably not.
You make the trade if Hughes is the centerpiece. The Yankees would be nuts to walk away from a legit top of the rotation ace because they are betting on the future potential of Hughes.
As far as Tabata goes, I wouldn’t care if he got traded. I’ve heard the “next Manny” tag slapped to enough young player who don’t turn out to be the next Manny that I’m not willing to hold up a deal over his inclusion. Victor Diaz who tore up the minor leagues with great power numbers was supposed to be the next Manny. Where is he now? He just got released. Again.
If Hughes, Tabata and Austin Jackson get Johan, you make the trade.
Johan is a clear upgrade over Hughes. As for the other 2 guys it’s still way up in the air what they will be.
Johan, Joba, Wang, Kennedy, Mussina (with hopefully Pettitte coming back) is a premier rotation that can win a championship.
giving up our two CFs plus our future Ace is a horrible move, yeh I know it’s Santana but what we accomplish is having to part w/ Melky/Jackson and a # 1 SP in Hughes that just makes no sense, Santana has a NTC he has already announced to his friends NY is where he wants to be the pressure should not be on us…
As for Boston they just won a WS, their not trading Lester & Bucholz plus Minny’s going to ask for more just because they have Ortiz.
Again mission is …..
1)get better defensively, we get worse after this deal
2)stop over spending for 30 yr. old position players, losing Jackson would mean sign and over pay a Rowand or Jones
3)GET AN ACE SP, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE SANTANA w/ or w/o him we are still not the favorite to win the WS, we close the gap but still are nowhere near championship level if our defense is ripped up in the process
i would be wary of any pitcher coming from the national league….
” and unless you are gonna rebuild you ain’t gonna go three rookies in your rotation.”
why not?
seriously, why not? b/c you said so?
this assumes pettitte comes back of course, but if he did, why couldn’t the yankees do that?
I read today that twins might trade Garza for Delmon Young. If they are willing to part with Garza, would anyone pull a Cano for Garza trade and forget about the other big name pitchers.
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Kennedy
Garza
Youngest pitching staff in the league and most promising for years to come. Just a thought.
Oakland does not want the Barry Zito episode to happen again, and not wanting to expend the x-tra bucks, are seeking to rebuild their system with top, young blue-chip prospects. Street is eligible for arbitration soon and there have been rumors he may be available at the right price.
The package I suggested is not set in concrete. It was just an example of what could be done. The Yankees may need to add a fourth or maybe a fifth prospect (Betemit, Gonzales?)
At any rate, a trade for Haren and Street makes a whole lot more sense that giving up that same talent for Santana.
to my knowledge scouts didn’t call Victor Martinez the next Manny in the minors not even in LA, when he was traded to the Mets was when Mets brass coined him that
your not going to fleece a team for starters anymore – look at what boston gave up for Becket. And they had to take Lowell – it is going to be very pricey to get any of these big guns…
hmmm
November 26th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
“If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!â€
Damon could play CF for a year.
i would guess that a healthy Damon outperforms Melky next year offense + defense.
I agree with you Hmmm. But then who do they put in left? I don’t think Matsui is the answer there any longer. I think they’d be better off leaving Damon in LF and picking up a Patterson (relatively cheap, short term contract until Ajax is ready) or Cameron (with Damon holding down center till he gets back), or even risking Gardner in CF. He’s supposedly very ready defensively and with the Yanks hitting, I believe that they can afford less OF out of CF if need be. What do you think?
S.o.S. , way too much
man I wish we traded Matsui for some extra prospects that we could have swung to Minnesota
It seems Santana will cost too much. I don’t want to give up any pitcher in a trade for a guy we are going to have to give a huge contract to anyways. I hope the Yankees don’t do something dumb.
“If they are willing to part with Garza, would anyone pull a Cano for Garza trade and forget about the other big name pitchers.”
uhh, no.
i don’t get it. people are scared about starting the season with Hughes, but would trade their all-star 2Bman for Garza, who is really just a “prospect” himself??
i think Hughes’ injuries this year have caused Yankee fans to completely forget just how highly rated Phil Hughes was just a year ago…
Santana will be one of the all time greats, but I still don’t see the Yankees flipping Hughes for him. They’ve groomed him to be their ace of the future. Just because Joba came along and crashed the party doesn’t make Hughes dispensable or less of a pitcher than he potentially could be. It just means that Joba has the potential to be even better than Hughes. I j ust can’t see the Yankees abandoning the plan at this juncture. It’s an opportunity for the whole organization to prove that they can also develop talent not just buy it.
hey guys read on Newsday Damon and Matsui will be discussed in the Winter Meetings
some hope
Mike F, Buddy Biancalana,
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated.
I say the Yankees prepare a decent, but not market value package. Maybe like Kennedy and Melky for Santana. It’s not nearly enough but if Santana wasnts to come to NY (which Hank has emphasized is important so far with the expensive players IE arod) then he will manipulate the no trade clause and the Yanks might get a steal for maybe Kennedy, Melky, and a prospect and keep Hughes, Joba, and Robbie
The thought of Santana heading up the staff is enticing, no doubt. But the acquisition costs us money, depth and creates a hole (CF) that may not be easy to plug, at least not in a cost effective way.
I’m very careful, and I don’t include Joba or Hughes, and I even hesitate on Kennedy.
Melky isn’t deal breaker by any means, but I don’t want the team shopping for a CFer when the top priority now should be upgrading the bullpen.
Right now one of the strengths of the team is the depth of young starting pitching. I, for one, look forward to watchign these guys develop and emerge as potential aces.
Monitor the Santana situation, but proceed cautiously.
jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge
Last year tickets went on sale about Dec 20th. I anticipate it will be around the same date again.
Don’t stay at hotels on 8th ave. If you have a particular hotel in mind, ask here before booking it. I wouldn’t go for a cheap hotel if I were you
Thanks for the info. Mrs. Yanksrule57 (who has patiently put up with me and my Yankees addiction for 25 years) does not like cheap hotels, therefore, that is not an option. I will definitely get this blogs input before booking.
Not a problem.
Adrian.
The Yankees should not invest in a 5 yr contract on any pitcher. You have to have a business plan that fits the times.You tie up 130 million dollars and you could end up with another Carl Pavano.
Fair enough, hmmm. I get that you like Santana, but think the price is too steep. We disagree, but I get it.
I don’t get why the money makes a difference, though. The Yanks have a TON of money coming off the books in the coming years. Giambi, Mussina, Pettitte, Abreu — ALL of these players and their big money contracts will most likely be gone after 2008. Damon’s contract ends after ‘09. So they have lots of dough to spend.
PLUS, YES is a cash cow, and the new stadium will be the ultimate cash cow. They’ll probably sellout every game this year, and for years to come in the new park (seating capacity is going down to about 45K). So money will not prevent the Yanks from improving the team. So why bring it up?
I’d trade Damon or Matsui for Kemp & Broxton. I’ll throw in a good prospect if I have to.
Anyone that says Santana is on the downside has rocks for brains.
The comments about pitch count and the kids are/is (sweet as candy but has a problem with grammar) an excellent point..
Our bullpens sucks… I hope we can plug someone in there….
Cost too much?
Stop thinking prospects are all going to be great. You figure out which ones will be your core ala Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mo, Jorgie. And you trade the others for valued additions.
I think it is safe to say that Johan Santana would be a valued addition.
We’d be fighting for the Wild Card for the next 4 years if Boston trades for Santana.
Bob-
Pitching like Santana doesn’t come along.Don’t forget he had a not great second half but he was angry about no trades to the twins in the trade deadline and alot of people in the Twins were upset Luis Castillo was given away for a bag of Fritos.
And Carl Pavano c’mon.The Yankees knew Pavano only had 1 200 innings season in his career in a contact year,they knew Jaret Wright only had one good career year and failed his first physcial,Randy Joghnson was 40,Kevin Brown was said to the Yankees he’ll lose or win 20 games and had back problems,Javier Vaquez was a #3 pitcher the Yankees forced to be Pettitte.
And to sum it all up they were all N.L. Pitching.The Yankees been through worse I think Santana is the only pitcher worth the risk.
Jax,
I like that trade, but why would the Dodgers do it? Broxton is a key part of their bullpen, and Kemp is a player they are trying to use as part of a package to get someone like Miguel Cabrera.
I can’t stop laughing because I just read someone compare Santana to Pavano. When Pavano gets a Cy Young vote, becomes lefty, and loves pitching under pressure. Call me.
With all these Santana proposals it’s very evident that this blog lacks in suitable chess players.
Hey Jax,
Add in Farnsworth and Giambi and ask for Billinglsey and Kershaw too.
Numbskulls and there insane trade proposals.
If there is one player that is touchable for Santana it is Hughes. For anyone else? Untouchable. But the best SP in baseball? I think they’d reluctantly give him up.
No other team besides the Dodgers can come up with a better offer than the Yankees for Santana.
“So money will not prevent the Yanks from improving the team. So why bring it up?”
it’s not the money. it’s the money AND the talent.
if Johan were a free agent we would not be having this debate as i am generally not one for saving money for the sake of saving money.
the point is that you need to fill 25 roster spots with premium talent. the market for premium talent is NOT a deep and liquid market. once you trade those guys, you can’t get them back.
sometimes you can have all the money in the world, but literally have nothing worth spending it on.
the yankees might have tons of money available, but it is VERY possible there will not be 2 players available on the market that are AS GOOD as Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson will be from ages 22-28.
you can’t just assume because the yankees have so much money coming off the books that they will be able to improve their team. the only way to GUARANTEE the availability of premium talent is to grow and retain your own.
the yankees have one goal: to MAXIMIZE the talent on their 25 man roster.
i am simply saying that trading Hughes, Melky, and Jackson for Santana *MAY* not be the best way to do that. i am also not saying it definitely WON’T be. i am simply objecting to this notion that such a trade is a no-brainer.
i don’t think it is.
The last thing the Yanks should be concerned about is paying Santana 140 mil for 7 yrs.
They should just hold that up to Minny in negotiations to get them off certain players.
“Stop thinking prospects are all going to be great. You figure out which ones will be your core ala Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mo, Jorgie. And you trade the others for valued additions.”
right. no one is disagreeing with this strategy.
what we are disagreeing about is that i would include Hughes as part of the “core”.
if Hughes isn’t someone who you think will be a member of your core, who is??
when is the last time the yankees had a pitching prospect of Hughes’ caliber? 10 years ago in Pettitte?
you guys have been completely spoiled by all the young pitching Cashman has brought into the system. just because you have Joba doesn’t mean you trade Hughes.
I think we can safely assume that asking for Hughes, Ajax, and Melky is a first offer. And just the start of negotiating. I really don’t see them being firm on those 3 especailly if they are motivated to move Johan.
“No other team besides the Dodgers can come up with a better offer than the Yankees for Santana.”
this isn’t true.
the Angels, Red Sox, and the Mets could come up with similar offers depending on how far the Mets were willing to go.
You can’t get Kershaw and Billinglsey for Giambi and Farnsworth. Farnsworth stinks and Giambi making 23 million. Okay maybe we can’t get both but one for Damon who is still serviceable and a good prospect.
Matsui for James Loney and Johnathan Broxton. Thats the move to make. You have to approach Matsui and ask him to approve any trade, which may have to include a new extention on the Dodgers part for Hideki, but Loney is a slick fielding natural 1B who is going to hit .300 consistently, and with the short porch in RF, could get you 20 HRs a season. Broxton would give you what Joba was out of the pen last year.
If they want to get an arm back, a back end of the rotation guy like Karstens, Rasner, Clippard, or White would suffice.
DUDE!
The red Sox aren’t trading Ellsbury and the Angels will shoot their load on Miggy. The Mets? You have to be joking. Their system is joke. The Yanks are in the drivers seat.
This is the trade the NoMass guys proposed and I’m quite sure that the Dodgers will laugh at Cashman if he makes this offer.
What no Sean Henn? Why do people feel as though they can offer other teams anybody and get a quality player in return? It’s not happening.
I thought the Mets had a good system. The way their fans where talking during the year you would have thought they had one.
Hughes is good but he shouldn’t tie you down from going to and getting Johan Santana. Especially if everyone is right in saying they have loads of young starters in the minors that are ready to burst. They need a legit ace. That is Johan.
Just because a guy is a prospect and has talent doesn’t make him a sure thing. Ask the Dodgers and Edwin Jackson. The #1 pitching prospect at the time.
“The Mets? You have to be joking. Their system is joke. The Yanks are in the drivers seat.”
if the Mets were willing to empty their system, they could put a package together.
Gomez, Milledge, Martinez, and Pelfrey.
I hear everything you’re saying, hmmm, but once again your comments say nothing about why the money should be part of our concern.
I agree that we should negotiate carefully and not give up Hughes if we don’t absolutely have to. But I don’t agree that the cost of signing Santana should affect the decision in any way. They have the money, so why should it matter?
Let’s forget the money and go back to debating whether we should give up Hughes for Santana. Because’s that’s a debate worth having.
Damon and either Horne or Tabata can get Loney.
The Mets best pitching prospect, Pelfrey, wouldn’t even crack the Yanks top 10.
You can take Wood off the bullpen list. Resigned for 1 year. Didnt want Pavanoesk anyways.
We need to shore up our bullpen. We can have the best starters in the league,without a legit pen,we’re not going anywhere in the playoffs.
No Kerry Wood Yankee fans… http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3128280
Yeah, Jax, because the Dodgers have shown a big willingness to trade their top prospects for overpriced vets. What is with some people? Think before you type.
the old adage may hold true , the best trades are the one`s that are not made. Everyone seems to think Santana is a no -brainer. I`d rather have Andy Pettitte back
Gomez,Milledge,Martinez and Pelfrey can get Santana BUT only if the Yankees,Red Sox and Dodgers aren’t willing to trade their respective farm systems for him.
yes, they made it and i agree with it. The Dodgers currently have something like 4 or 5 rookies penciled in for the starting lineup, and there is no way Joe Torre and Ned Coletti are going to let that happen. They favor veterans way too much.
they are looking to upgrade in CF to move Juan Pierre to LF, but have already missed the boat on Hunter. With the Rangers, White Sox, and company missing out on Hunter, they can throw smaller dollars for Rowand, who the Dodgers were reportedly pursuing. More suitors means less likely. and i doubt Coletti will offer a big deal to Andruw Jones, after losing Drew in Boras’s other opt out debacle.
So an upgrade in LF is another way to sure up that offense. Matsui is a Torre guy, and Torre loves him. the Dodgers are a West Coast team, closer to his home in Japan, and are of the elite franchises in name in the history of the sport.
In today’s market, Matsui can bring back a nice bunch of players. Even if they cant get Broxton, I’d take a combo of Loney and another arm.
believe it or not Hideki Matsui could net us Kemp and another prospect it’s a stretch for to be in that deal Looney but Matsui is a 30/100 type hitter that the Dodgers would need and I bet they’d want to keep Kershaw instead of trading him in a package for Cabrera which they will not get the Yankees could hold a secret card in this
Well it’s not like I said Damon straight up for Loney. I know it won’t happen.
Shoring up the pen doesn’t mean giving 19 mil for 4 yrs to the likes of Linebrink. If he got that much what do you think the Viz will get??? At this point I think I’d grab one of the lefty’s and look for options via trade/Rule 5.
“But that’s just a sampling of players who could be discussed at the winter meetings, ”
Brandon, learn to appreciate the power of the word “could” in media reports. That whole list was entirely speculation. Speculation informed by rosters and salaries, but not inside info. If there was info, they’d have mentioned anonymous sources. And even that wouldn’t be particularly reliable.
A big problem with fan forums and blogs is people hearing speculation, calling it fact without attribution, and then the discussion getting derailed by false info.
Could those players be discussed? Sure, they COULD be. The Yanks right now have a glut of OFers and they’re all left handed. Those guys have some value because they’re productive hitters, can still play the field most of the time, and neither will KILL you out there. But we already knew all that…this isn’t telling us anything we didn’t already know. It’s not like they have anyone in the organization telling them the team is looking to move one of these guys.
Bobby
What are your Brains composed of? a vast mass of Air holes.
this is a blog everything we speak of is could, but most likely w/ Torre in LA he will want a veteran hitter out there.
“Gomez,Milledge,Martinez and Pelfrey can get Santana BUT only if the Yankees,Red Sox and Dodgers aren’t willing to trade their respective farm systems for him.”
well, yeah. if the yankees were willing to trade Joba and Cano, no one could beat that.
but they aren’t.
the Mets could make a credible push for Santana, that is all i am saying.
man I hope people understand this for the last time the Mets have no deal unless they can throw in Jose Reyes or David Wright, they have no chance to land Santana !!
I actually think the Rays have the best package but they never spend money so…….
I’m thinking of the deal the Red Sox did to get Pedro back in 1997. Gave up two arms that, at the time, were considered potential top of the rotation types; Tony Armas and Carl (band-aid) Pavano. That neither panned out as such doesn’t diminish how they were perceived in 1997 – and note, both have had 10 yr major league careers (albeit a lot of DL time). And we know what Pedro meant to the Sox. We can’t know how Ian Kennedy or Phil Hughes will turn out, but they could blow out their arms in spring training, or be the next big things (Joba’s already there).
Bottom line: for the best pitcher of his era (Santana), you give up almost anything on spec, including Cano – second basemen are replaceable (but maybe not Joba).
I agree on letting Viz walk. After seeing how we signed Farns for 3 years and wanted to rid ourselves from him after one, maybe our best bet would be to have our young guys in the farm(ohlendorf,veras,ramirez and any of the pitchers comming off injuries cox)try out in spring training to make the squad. I just cant see ourselves committing another 3 years to Viz or anyone who wasnt a closer of another team last year.
Who knows maybe Girardi can work his magic on farns and get him to pitch to his ability.
I think the darkhorse for a lefty could very well be Igawa.
How about not. I think Matsui to LA is possible. Hideki would probably waive his no trade rights for a reunion in LA where they have a larger Japanese population, but Matsui for Kemp straight up? Doubtful. Let alone Kemp + another prospect.
Lets get agressive with Dan Haren…IMO
Jax thats what happens when you always draft first
You always get the best prospects.
I agree with KLev. Unless you think that Santana isn’t the best pitcher of his generation (or at least one of the top 2 or 3) with a bunch of years left, then I think anything is potentially on the table. I love Joba, and I would love to keep this guy, but he has maybe 25 innings of relief work in the big leagues, and we’ve never seen him as a starter which is where the Yanks swear he’ll be. Maybe he has a Nolan Ryan career, or maybe he’ll throw out his arm in 3 years. I think Santana is virtually a sure thing #1 starter for at least 5 years, so Cano and Joba for Santana? I would probably do that.
“Bottom line: for the best pitcher of his era (Santana), you give up almost anything on spec, including Cano – second basemen are replaceable (but maybe not Joba).”
what does this mean, “second basemen are replaceable”?
everyone is “replaceable”. the question is how much does that replacement cost you in wins.
Cano is probably the best 2Bman in the AL and will probably the yankees’ second best position player in 2008. his replacement will undoubtedly be a downgrade of several wins.
will santana make up those wins? maybe.
but if i had to guess who would be worth more wins to the yankees over the next 7 years, i’d pick Cano over Santana.
“I think Santana is virtually a sure thing #1 starter for at least 5 years, so Cano and Joba for Santana? I would probably do that.”
wow. that is nuts. sorry.
If they where willing to spend money they could get Santana. Their rotation would be sick in a couple of years……well at-least the top three: Santana,Kazmir,Price
Just two tips. Andy Pettitte making a decision to return or not can tip the scales on what Brian Cashman does to the betterment of the starting rotation and Brian Cashman never tips his hand as to what moves he plans to make. The media and fans are the last to know what is on his mind. Everything else is pure speculation. Rumor mills are what they are.
Anyone have any idea what the O’s are asking for Bedard?
Chase Wright straight up.
I doubt they would trade him within the division, and to us no less.
The Rays have the prospects but not the money to actually pay him. And he has a full no trade clause. Name the last guy who wanted to play in Tampa. The Mets don’t have the pitching prospects to get Santana done. They’d be better off moving on Haren.
hmmm do you really need to copy and paste what everyone else writes as you comment on it?
Haven’t we all watched Cashman enough to know he won’t panic and he won’t be bullied and he won’t mortgage the future? This isn’t 1985 here.
The Bronx Stop makes a valid point in getting aggressive with Dan Haren. He knows the AL and allows the farm system to bide some more development time with the next wave of pitchers such as Horne, Marquez, Robertson, et al.
The farm system has some pitchers stuck in neutral with DeSalvo, Wright, Igawa, Clippard, and Karstens that can be part of a package.
Pete should start a new feature here. A poll voting on the dumbest trade proposals daily. It would be a heated competition everyday with all the dummies.
please don’t trade hughes. i just bought his jersey.
“The farm system has some pitchers stuck in neutral with DeSalvo, Wright, Igawa, Clippard, and Karstens that can be part of a package.”
What GM in their right mind would trade a player like Dan Haren for that??
Please. Enlighten us.
I love how people think we can get Santana for the Clippards of the world. It’s hilarious.
Come on Terry. put those pitchers into a deal for Haren. DeSalvo/Clippard/Igawa for him?? Maybe throw in Giambi right???
“hmmm do you really need to copy and paste what everyone else writes as you comment on it?”
no
but seriously, how else would people know what you are addressing? the comments here come so quickly that while you are typing a response, there can be 4-5 comments in between the post you are responding to.
i am open for suggestions, but what works best in this format?
Austin Jackson. Can the kid play at Double A before we annoint him an all star and our starting CF?
Can you blame Minny in asking for Hughes?
I find it amusing that people are appalled at the Twins asking for Cano or asking for Hughes. I am not saying we should trade then, but what do you expect the Twins to open with. “We’ll give you Santana and you give us whatever you think is fair.”
With the way some of these boobs think I wouldn’t be surprised if they seriously thought Chase Wright, DeSalvo, and Clippard could get Santana.
The Yanks need an ace. Johan Santana is that ace. What to give up? Who the heck knows. We aren’t in those meetings. We don’t know who they want or who we’d part with or who isn’t improving in the minors.
“Santana may well be on the downside. the Yanks should stay away from any overpriced pitching talent. How soon we forget about the Great Randy Johnson”
Bob, are you kidding me.. how old was Randy Johnson? How old is Johan?
Please..
Even as the brothers Steinbrenner and A-Rod hammer out the final details on a record setting, discounted contract, Jeter finds himself exposed as a tax cheat.
Jeter’s $20 million a year is a reward as much for his on field play as it is for his representation as the face of the Yankees and, by extension, New York City. Its absurd for him to claim residency in Florida to avoid taxes on a technicality. Furthermore, HE LIVES IN NEW YORK CITY. He’s always here. There isn’t a day in his life, since 1996, that hasn’t been documented by Page 6 or the other tabloids. Who did he think he was going to fool?
I know there’s nothing that this man can do to hurt his relationship with Yankee fans. People just do not think rationally when it comes to Derek Jeter. I’m going to say for the hundredth time that his jump throw from the SS/3B gap is a weak play, due to his limited range and quickness, not a brilliant play by a defensive wizard. See? No one cares. But I hope someone, somewhere will take into consideration that if this allegation is true, Derek Jeter selfishly withheld significant money from New York that should have gone into its schools, infrastructure, and public safety.
This City has given a lot to Jeter. New Yorkers’ support for the Yankees and #2 are directly responsible for his ability to become a millionaire many times over. Meanwhile, the Yankees are getting significant tax breaks to build a stadium that will increase their ability to make money. That puts the tax burden more squarely on the shoulders of everyday New Yorkers, especially when affluent members of the tax base opt out.
I`d rather give up Jackson than Melky personally. Now I realize that this is probably partially my bias but Melky is already a productive trustworthy CF’er while Jackson is much less of a sure thing. He`s improved every year. Patience, hje`s young and ahead of the pace of a lot of current stars. Jackson has had one breakout year in A. I like him to but Melky is in the ML’s already and has played a full season in New York. You can’t underestimate the value of that. Maybe Jackson’s ceiling is higher but Melky is ready right now and trstworthy.
“hmmm
November 26th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
but seriously, how else would people know what you are addressing? the comments here come so quickly that while you are typing a response, there can be 4-5 comments in between the post you are responding to.
i am open for suggestions, but what works best in this format?”
-hmmm: i am in complete agreement with you. When you get to the comments section for the first time it is much easier to see someone’s quoted text rather then something like ‘john, i agree with your point.’
Keep doing your thing. You are all over this thread with some great points.
who cares about Jeter’s taxes? were you guys really surprised that Jeter and Mariano care just as much about their money as A-Rod?
or did everyone here really think A-Rod was the only “greedy” player in professional sports?
“when is the last time the yankees had a pitching prospect of Hughes’ caliber? 10 years ago in Pettitte?”
Andy Pettitte was a 22nd round Draft Pick (1990) and never was regarded as highly as Hughes or Chamberalin..or even IPK.
Brien Taylor was a pitching prospect (1991) as highly regarded as Hughes and we all know how his career ended.
Hey burn,
An outfeild of Damon, Melky, AJax?????
The yankees need more power than that in the outfeild. I hate to say it, because I love his arm, but Melky is not suited to be a RF for the yanks.
“this is a blog everything we speak of is could,”
Brandon:
I’m not talking about what WE say. I’m talking about stuff from the REAL MEDIA. You read on the daily news or whatever a list of players that COULD be discussed during the winter meetings, and then came here and said “Matsui and Damon will be discussed at the winter meetings!” That’s not what they said at all.
My point is that you, like many people do, read the article naively. They said COULD. In the media, that means “we are speculating, and have no inside information for this, but the following might make sense based on some easily available info.”
“Brien Taylor was a pitching prospect (1991) as highly regarded as Hughes and we all know how his career ended.”
Did Taylor ever actually pitch successfully in the majors, as Phil has? Does Phil seem like as much of a meatheaded idiot as Taylor?
Just because one former #1 was an idiot doesn’t mean that every highly-touted pitcher without a at least a year of MLB experience should be considered a giant, giant risk.
I just saw a 60 minutes piece on him. Guess who was his agent, yep blog fav Scott Boras.
One yr of Santana?
Did anyone watch the playoffs the past 3 years??
Great starting pitching wins and Santana would go a long way towards making us a winner.
Prospects are just that. prospects. Santana is the BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL.
hmmm, don’t change a thing.
Bobby criticizes every proposal in sight without mentioning one of his own.
Yet another example of how you can’t teach a rock to fall up.
“if the Mets were willing to empty their system, they could put a package together.
Gomez, Milledge, Martinez, and Pelfrey.”
Yea – but they wouldn’t put a package like that because it would completely deplete their farm system.
I don’t know what’s worse. A commenter comparing Santana to a 42 yr old RJ or Santana to Pavano.
I’m smart enough not to make silly trade proposals, Terry. Am I in the GM meeting? Am i talking to our scouts? Am I calling other GM’s?
Obviously, we’d all like to see Santana for desalvo and Igawa. But get off it. Stop being naive and making up useless terrible offers.
Terry keep those lame trades coming. I need the laughs.
How many championships rings do Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux own? Oh that’s right, they own the 1 ring even though they had the best righthanded pitcher of his generation and a 300 game winning lefthanded pitcher and a 200 game winning big game pitcher.
Interesting to say the least.
Let Cashman do what he is paid to do. If it makes sense, he’ll trade some prospects for Johan. If it doesn’t, he’ll go to Plan B. Have some faith.
I like Pete’s list – wouldn’t touch Hughes, Cano, Joba for Santana. The guy is a free agent next year. You take a look at the prospect list that other teams are putting together and you evaluate from there. Right now everybody is saying “this team can offer the Twins _____, so the Yankees should offer ____.” Right now we haven’t seen any solid offers from outside teams for Santana so you really don’t know what the market is.
How many championships rings do Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux own?
And how many Series did they get into? Ohhh. That too much for wee little brain???
They also won 14 div titles in a row thanks to starting pitching. But hey, that’s interesting too.
Why did the Sox win? Beckett. Schill/Pedro in ‘03.
Why did the White Sox win? Great SP from Garcia, Garland, Contrera, Buehlre.
Marlins? Beckett, Penny, Pavano
The yanks 95-2001? Clemens, Wells, Cone, Key, Andy P, Duque
Some people just never learn.
“Right now we haven’t seen any solid offers from outside teams for Santana so you really don’t know what the market is.”
EXACTLY.
Also, the LA teams still want Cabrera. That will take one of the teams out of the running for Santana. If the Angels and their six starting pitchers are in the race in the first place…
You don’t win titles with Jaret Wright starting important games. I hope we’ve realized that too.
http://chicagosports.chicagotr.....-headlines
Dan Haren available? I like him more than Satana. He`s cheaper in terms of money and talent. Could we get him for Horne, Kennedy, Igawa, and cash?
THen just hope Santana hits free agency. If he doesn’t then let somebody else overpay for him.
1) Haren
2) Joba
3) Phil
4) Wang
5) Pettite
1) Beckett
2) Schilling
3) Matsuzaka
4) Wakefield
5) Lester
No one knows what Minny wants. No one knows who they like/don’t like it. Making up ridiculous proposals while fun is worthless and a waste of time.
No one knows what Minny wants. No one knows who they like/don’t like it. Making up ridiculous proposals while fun is worthless and a waste of time.
Actually we have heard their intial demand of Hughes, Melky, and Jackson I think. or was that speculation?
You like someone because he is cheaper????
These are the Yankees!!! We should be getting the best. Not nickle and diming.
Honest question here…given that Santana has a no trade clause (if I remember correctly, anyway), wouldn’t it be a better long-term idea to wait a year for him to hit free agency and simply outbid for his services?
My reasoning here is pretty much the ‘build it and he will come’ idea that I saw here before; then it comes down to sending a message of “Hey, we want you here, we have the money to pay you, but we won’t give up the farm. You know why? Because we want you to have the best possible cast to work with for the rest of your Yankee career.”
“Did Taylor ever actually pitch successfully in the majors, as Phil has? Does Phil seem like as much of a meatheaded idiot as Taylor?
Just because one former #1 was an idiot doesn’t mean that every highly-touted pitcher without a at least a year of MLB experience should be considered a giant, giant risk.”
whozat:
Read my response. It had nothing to do with the fact that Brien Taylor never pitched in MLB, the fact was he WAS the crown jewel of their MiLB system in 1992-1993.
Do you know Brien Taylor well enough to call him an idiot?
Do you know the circumstances surrounding his injury? He was protecting his brother in a bar fight when he injured his shoulder? I met Brien Taylor when he pitched for AA Albany-Colonie and he never struck me as being an”idiot”.
Meat Hook, first of all I meant that largely in terms of talent. Second, the money uis a factor because I`m sick of hearing BS from the hater
Okay, and since 2001 what have the Yankees done, oh yes now I remember they made it to the playoffs every year since.
They also made it to the world series twice since then and to the ALCS twice since then.
This year if Joe Torre pulls the team off the field the Yankees probably beat Cleveland who only had one pitcher who threw a quality start and the Yankees were beating him.
Name me one team that had a staff better than the Braves during their playoff run. Oh yes, you can’t. It takes more than great pitching to win championship rings.
Yeah, enough of this ‘we have to fix the bullpen’ crap, yes, it needs a tweak or two, but they can do that internally.
If we had at least 2 or 3 starting pitchers that could make it to (gasp) the seventh or eighth inning, then our bullpen wouldn’t get as used as much.
And, I just heard on Dibble and Skip’s show on XM that the Twins are asking for two packages:
1. Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera
OR
2. Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Austin Jackson.
Personally, I’d say no to both. I agree with Pete’s list, but I think Hughes will have to go…
How about Hughes, Horne, Melky and Tabata? Go get ‘em, Cashman !
Comparing Haren to Santana. Now my day is made. That’s hilarious. When Haren wins a Cy Young, let me know.
raymagnetic:
How many titles have the Yanks won since 2001?
Any??
That’s because of starting pitching.
And the Yanks had a better staff than the Braves all those years. Hence why the yanks won 4 titles.
“Why did the White Sox win? Great SP from Garcia, Garland, Contrera, Buehlre.
Marlins? Beckett, Penny, Pavano
The yanks 95-2001? Clemens, Wells, Cone, Key, Andy P, Duque
Some people just never learn.”
come on. now you are moving the goalposts.
i challenge you to find one person who said GOOD starting pitching is not crucial to postseason success.
that is NOT the same thing as saying the Yankees HAVE to have Johan Santana. not the same thing at all.
in fact, i think your inclusion of the 2005 White Sox kindof goes against your point. they had VERY good starting pitching, but individually none of those pitchers are in the same league as Santana. same with the Marlins in 2003. Beckett finally got his name in the conversation this year, but back in 2003, he wasn’t anywhere close to Santana.
no one is saying that the yankees don’t need good starting pitching. of course they do. what people are saying is that Johan is NOT the only good pitcher in baseball.
if Pettitte comes back, the Yankees *COULD* have a pretty strong rotation even without Johan. coupled with their offense, they will be contenders in 2008. are they a lock for the WS? nope.
but is there anything they could do that would make them a lock for the WS? not really. not even getting Johan Santana would make them a lock.
Johan is 1-4 in the postseason with a 3.97 ERA. there are no sure things.
Comparing Haren to Santana. Now my day is made. That’s hilarious. When Haren wins a Cy Young, let me know.
Actually its more liek comparing Haren and everything it would cost to get Santana to Santana and everything it would take to get Satnana
So, Haren, Hughes, Melky, Jackson, and 125 million dollars or Santana, Igawa, Horne, and Kennedy.
I`d take the first one.
“How many championships rings do Smoltz/Glavine/Maddux own? Oh that’s right, they own the 1 ring even though they had the best righthanded pitcher of his generation and a 300 game winning lefthanded pitcher and a 200 game winning big game pitcher.”
That’s true, but if you wouldn’t take that rotation at that time to build a team around you’re nuts.
“Honest question here…given that Santana has a no trade clause (if I remember correctly, anyway), wouldn’t it be a better long-term idea to wait a year for him to hit free agency and simply outbid for his services?”
you have to look at it from his perspective. it makes sense for him to sign an extension NOW. every time he steps on the mound, he risks a career threatening injury.
a lot can happen in a year to a pitcher.
I do think the Mets could make a better run at Santana and come out like bandits. While I think our kids are going to be pure gold, I just don’t see anyone on the Mets’ radar, outside of Gomez, turning into much.
I like the Haren idea even better than I like pursuing Santana. Who knows what Billy Beane’s calculator decides is a vallid commodity in the Yanks’ system. Would IPK, Horne/Marquez/McCutchen, and Tabata land you Dan Haren? I could go to sleep easily at night with that one.
“Comparing Haren to Santana. Now my day is made. That’s hilarious. When Haren wins a Cy Young, let me know.”
no, what’s hilarious is that no one compared Haren to Santana.
they simply said they might prefer Haren if the cost to acquire him in terms of talent is lower.
what is so unreasonable about that?
I never said I wouldn’t take their rotation. What my point is is that it takes more than good starting pitching to win rings. The Braves had GREAT 1-3 starting pitchers and got 1 ring out of the deal.
“you have to look at it from his perspective. it makes sense for him to sign an extension NOW. every time he steps on the mound, he risks a career threatening injury.
a lot can happen in a year to a pitcher.”
—
Good point, as that is a very real possibility. But on the other hand, would someone like him take into account what the other team is giving up to acquire him?
The example in my mind is the Kobe Bryant situation over in the NBA. Kobe wants/wanted (I have no idea anymore) a trade to a better teams, so there’s no way he would accept a trade to a gutted team. Of course, I’m not sure how applicable this would be to baseball.
I’d say both packages are way too much. I’d rather hold onto our prospects.
I’d put Robbie Cano, Hughes, Chamberlain, Tabata, Jackson in the untouchable category. Wang, Horne in the fight to keep and everyone else as trade bait.
“But on the other hand, would someone like him take into account what the other team is giving up to acquire him?”
i don’t know. it’s a good question, but my gut would tell me that baseball players don’t really think of it that way.
he’d probably think, “i’m going to make a ton of money and i’ll have Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, and Rivera on my team!”
Agreed patrick.
I would be willing to part with Melky and less prospects.
I hope the Yanks don’t trade Alan Horne. He throws four good pitches; he struggles with his control occasionally but he’s got nasty stuff and as a result probably has a higher ceiling than Kennedy. In fact John Manuel was saying the other day that Horne’s stuff is “a tick below Joba’s.” I hope they hang onto him.
“i don’t know. it’s a good question, but my gut would tell me that baseball players don’t really think of it that way.
he’d probably think, “i’m going to make a ton of money and i’ll have Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, and Rivera on my team!—
—
Well, that wouldn’t be unlikely; having a bunch of All-Stars/All-Star caliber players around would be comforting to any incoming player
Thanks for the responses
“Read my response. It had nothing to do with the fact that Brien Taylor never pitched in MLB, the fact was he WAS the crown jewel of their MiLB system in 1992-1993.”
And you clearly missed my point. You were bringing up Taylor to imply that Hughes could still be a giant, worthless bust because #1 rated prospects are huge risks. My point was that a #1 prospect who’s actually hit the majors and had some success — even without his best stuff — is FAR less risky than a highly touted guy in AA ball. The two cases are totally different, and trying to relate them is just invalid.
“I never said I wouldn’t take their rotation. What my point is is that it takes more than good starting pitching to win rings. The Braves had GREAT 1-3 starting pitchers and got 1 ring out of the deal.”
I agree with all that. I don’t think anyone is saying that getting Santana (even for free) would guarantee anything, but that’s not the issue. Getting someone like him for a fair price improves the staff. The issue here is the price.
in another note
My thoughts and prayers go out to Sean Taylor and his family(wife and an infant). Hope he comes out of this o.k.
they need to keep melky!!!!
“HE LIVES IN NEW YORK CITY. He’s always here. There isn’t a day in his life, since 1996, that hasn’t been documented by Page 6 or the other tabloids.”
Jona, a couple of points:
First, depending on the reliability of tabloid gossip for your info is unwise. The fact that a person with a well-known name is mentioned there is COMPLETELY unrelated to the facts of their geographical location at any given time.
Second, try reading a little tax law. You’ll find NY pretty complex as state tax laws go, with all sorts of factors like number of working days actually spent here, etc. As we all know, Jeter lives in Florida during the off-season, which is five or six months depending on the year. During the season, he is away for fifty percent of his working time (this is baseball, remember — away games make up half the calendar, and he is taxed elsewhere for those). So he works here for half the season, namely either 3 or 3 1/2 months. And from what I have read Jeter has paid up (handsomely) every single year for the privilege of doing so. But apparently the tax man is now going after income from endorsements, etc., that may or may not have any connection with days spent in NYC, depending on how the statutes are interpreted.
“He throws four good pitches; he struggles with his control occasionally but he’s got nasty stuff and as a result probably has a higher ceiling than Kennedy. In fact John Manuel was saying the other day that Horne’s stuff is “a tick below Joba’s.†I hope they hang onto him.”
Given the presence of Hughes and Joba, Horne sounds like exactly the kind of guy the Yanks should be willing to trade. Electric stuff and young, which makes him attractive to other teams, but a lack of command makes him risky. You have to give value to get value…I’d much rather trade him than someone with great stuff AND great command (Hughes).
hmm,
Thanks for making it easy to figure out what you’re responding so, so I don’t have to wade back through numerous posts to make the connection.
This deal will get done and Hughes is going to be the center piece of the deal.
Nothing will get done if Hughes is placed as untouchable and we cannot afford Boston to make a big push for Santana. If we pass and they sneak in and get him we are going to be in 2nd place in the AL East for the next 4-5 years.
“they need to keep melky!!!!”
If the deal is for Santana…no, they don’t. Sign Kielty to split time with Damon in CF if Melky is traded…he balances the lineup against lefties and plays good D out there. Jackson or Tabata (or maybe even Gardner) could be in CF starting in 2009 or 2010. Given them, Melky is less important to the Yanks.
“Nothing will get done if Hughes is placed as untouchable and we cannot afford Boston to make a big push for Santana. ”
That’s the sort of thinking that causes teams to make bad decisions. They’ll have to trade their only young pitching AND their CFer or 2B in order to make the deal. They’d have to replace them with aging FA signings, and turn into the Yankees for the last five years: Old and not winning world series.
Besides…look at it from their point of view…they’d be trading their only MLB-ready talent for a starter they don’t even need right now.
“This deal will get done and Hughes is going to be the center piece of the deal.”
wait, are you saying this as a fan? or are you saying this as super-spy inside-source guy Miller??
Amen Whozat !
Yes, I agree.
If Melky is gone (say, along with IPK, Horne and Tabata) for Johan Santana, rather than running out and dropping 4 or 5 years/$60-75M on Aaron freakin’ Rowand, the Band Box Blaster (check his numbers in CHW, yuk), or Andruw ‘.226 last year’ Jones at 7 years, $100M, they should sign a one year stopgap, ie Mike Cameron, Bobby Kielty (to share time with Damon) until one of the farm boys, Gardner or Jackson, is ready.
Yeah where is Miller? We need our inside dish!
Pete,
In one post you rant and rave about how we cant give the twins nothing for santana and all of our trade propositions are stupid and would never work. Now, you put out a post like this in which Hughes, Chamberlain and Cano are all untouchable and wang isnt even on any of the lists while unproven players like tabata, horne and kennedy (who has only pitched 20 innings in the majors) and a mediocre player in the name of melky cabrera is what you say should be offered up for the best pitcher in baseball. And somehow the yanks cant even offer up their flavor of the week austin jackson. Come on – if the twins want austin jackson in a trade for santana thank god that they may not ask for hughes and chamberlain and wrap that guy in a bow. I mean Johan is the type of player that can single handedly win us a championship – he is the ace that the yanks desparately need to start and win two games in a five game playoff series and three in a seven game series. Granted, I would fight for hughes and chamberlain but if the twins want cano, give him to them. Cano isnt winning us a ring by himself- johan may. Plus, orlando hudson is a free agent next yr and so is teixera which will replace canos bat and more in the lineup. And as you said, the yanks need to give the twins SOMETHING in this deal. The yanks need a centerpiece and cano, not hughes or chamberlain shoud be that centerpiece. Suuure, the yanks would gladly give up horne, tabata, melky, kennedy, mcclutchen, phillips, clippard, sanchez, betances, norton, whelan, marquez and melancon and who knows who else but as you said many, many mediocre or unproven players does not equal one great player or a player with great potential. Sometimes your posts completely contradict each other- this is one of those times. I agreed with your first post – the yanks need to offer up somebody they really dont want to give away for santana. Im praying that they pick the right person to be that player. Its tough to mortgage one’s future for the present. Luckly, Santana will be our new future but you really dont want to give up a 22 yr old ace for a 28 yr old ace. Id much rather give up a secondbaseman in his 20s for an ace.
Like MIller knows anything.. I mean c’mon, it’s not like he was the guy that told us Arod was coming back before anyone else knew about it.. geez! *cough *grin..
I’d prefer to trade Wang over Hughes personally. Especially since his sinker died and he’s been figured out.
Jennifer, by lowsy 8th ave hotels, you wouldn’t be talking about The New Yorker, would you?
Did they ever fix their awning? that was a pain to walk around when busy and it didn’t seem like they were in any hurry to fix it.
oh, and go yanks. keep the kids.
Miller-
Do you have inside sources?? Does Melky go with Hughes + whoever?
Im saying that as a fan. Santana is one of, what, 3 dominant pitchers in the AL??? We need to go all out to go after him and if a deal of Hughes, Melky and Jackson can get that done I do it in a heart beat. Hughes and Kennedy is giving up too many young arms. However, outfielders are replaceable and lets face it, I know Melky is a fan fave but cmon, he is far from being an all-star.
My opinion: Cash tries to go after Santana with Kennedy, Melky, Jackson and Horne.
Wang can’t struggle for more than one game without the haters coming out of the woodwork screaming “He’s been figured out” and “His sinker has lost it!”. Give the guy a break. Once he has a bad couple of months then we can speculate, but just because he got hit by the Indians doesn’t mean the guy is done.
saucy could be lol I don’t walk on 8th ave I try to avoid it at all costs.
You’d prefer to trade a two time 19 game winner with ERA+’s of 124 and 121 respectively whose pitched over 200IP’s both year with ERA’s under 4 both years instead of Hughes who I like a lot but it still an unproven commodity at this point?
What are you basing your logic on? For someone who’s been figured out I’m sure 99.9% of teams would like to have him playing for them.
I’d be interested in pursuing Haren over Santana. More than likley a lot less to give up in return and I really am impressed with Haren as a pitcher. That’s no dig on Sanata -I’m just more interested in improving our team on the whole without having to give up a ton in order to do it. Johan Sanatana isn’t going to guarantee a WS title anymore than ARod has. It takes a team, not the best individuals at every position.
Oh, and on the Brien Taylor note – Taylor ruined his own career by getting into a fight and injuring himself. Not on the field of play. So I’m not sure if he’s the best measuring stick to use in discussing injury risk with prospects.
So Dave, do you want someone over 30 at every defensive position? They just dont have as much depth at position prospects as they do at pitching. Even with Cano, im a bit concerned about our defense at infield in a few years. If every position is 35 years old, thats a recipie for some errors.
I wouldn’t say Wang’s been “figured out”. He’s still by far the Yankees ace, even with Pettite back, and you guys will remember that when he dominated on opening day against TOR. He hasn’t been “figured out” and his sinker didn’t “die” just because he had one bad playoff series against Cleveland.
Santana will remain in Minnesota for thr 2008 season then declare free agency.
I like Haren alot. The guy was a beast this year, is under team control for 3 years at a great price and is younger than Santana. I don’t think he is better, but he is certainly a potential ace.
*dominates* that would be. Talking ’bout ‘08
Miller,
Whatever you say from now on will be law. How you outscooped everyone else is still beyond me and even bigger than the fact arod returned.
If you say that this deal cannot be done without hughes, eventhough you states this as a fan, is canon to the rest of us
Wang is a good pitcher, but unless his sinker is working, he has no other pitches to fall back on. He needs his sinker to get batters to swing at his breaking pitches and slider. When his sinker stays up, he’s hittable. When his sinker is on, he’s a potential 20 game winner. He was still developing his secondary pitches as of this year…
“Give the guy a break. Once he has a bad couple of months then we can speculate, but just because he got hit by the Indians doesn’t mean the guy is done.”
In my mind it wasn’t just a matter of Wang getting hit by the Indians. It didn’t seem like he showed up at all and and at the most crucial time of the year…the postseason. Also in his last game head on against Beckett, Beckett was clearly the superior pitcher at least for that game.
Indians did pretty good against Santana last season too. Wang won’t go because of turf anyway.
Coming soon …. a mega press conference with A-Rod, Jorge, Mo, and Jose Molina at the podium.
I dont really see why we ned Santana. He is one of the best pitchers in the game, but to me you are just going to have to give up to much for the “best pitcher in the game.” To me you could trade Melky because you do have Jackson Gardner and Tabata right behind, but as far as trading Cano, you have any one behind him. I think that trading Kennedy and Horne, just in the end I think your giving up to much of future players for him.
Cano makes a lot of errors if you havent noticed. Im not saying i want to give up cano. Im just saying you cant get the best pitcher in baseball without giving up something with a lot of value. Young solid pitchers are such a rare commodity these days they cant even be traded for or signed very often. You can find young, all star outfielders in almost every free agent market if yo uare willing to overpay, same with infielders far more often than young starting pitching. I just think we should develop and trade for ace pitching and overpay for young hitting since they are soo much more available. That being the case- i would like to hold on to Joba, Hughes and kennedy. I have alot of faith in them. Particularly, Hughes and Chamberlain. I really, really dont want them to leave, not even for santana. Additionally, the twins want position players more than pitching because they have a ton of young pitching they claim. I would trade young hitting for young pitching any day of the week – that is the best bargain you can get in the MLB these days.
“I’d prefer to trade Wang over Hughes personally. Especially since his sinker died and he’s been figured out.”
I would too, but that’s precisely the point. If you know this, the Twins surely do too. We’d need to give up something of significant value TODAY to the Twins for Santana, plus one or two highly valued prospects. The Twins can’t go back to their fans and say we let our ace go, who is arguably the best picther in baseball, for just prospects/promises of greatness. There needs to be an all-star caliber guy in there, and that’s why I think Cano needs to be part of the trade. I don’t think Melky is good enough right now, and the ambivalence about Wang is duly noted, on top of the fact that putting a sinker baller on a turf field is like putting a fly ball pitcher in Coors Field.
By the time Cashman heads for Nashville, this board will be all Santana’d out.
It is far, far, faaaaar more likely for santana to single handedly win us a ring than it is for arod to do so. Aces pretty much change the face of five and seven game series and if you have two aces and they are both pitching well, you win the series. Schilling and Johnson were pretty much the only reason the dbacks won the series in 2001. Granted, luiz gonzalez and others had some clutch hits but it was those two guys that won the ring for the whole team. Entire teams are needed to reach the playoffs but once you get there, usually two or three pitchers can lead you all the way to a ring.
Let’s put it to a vote Pete and be done with it.
Methinks I need to take a trip down to my sister’s in Nashville and crash the winter meetings.
Put what to a vote? Isnt it the point of a blog to discuss these matters and speculate? Isnt that half the fun of being a baseball fan?
If Cano is in the trade, then we should go after Loretta for a year till Hudson hits free agency.
Just a reminder to some who want to give less. We arent the only team that is in the running for him. Its not like the Randy Johnson saga where he specifically wanted to go back home. Twins dont have to trade him to us. Yes most teams cant afford him,but the ones that do will package better prospects than Horne and Cabrera.
Plus we are not as deep in position players as we are pitching. (Which the Twins want)Cano might be the player that makes or breaks it.IMO
“Cano makes a lot of errors if you havent noticed. ”
so what? he’s still the best defensive player in the yankees’ starting lineup. who cares about errors?
he is also 24 years old and just doubled his walks from his previous season. he is going to be a star.
Cano made 13 errors this year.
Jeter has made 13 or more errors in 11 out of 12 seasons in the majors. he made 40 errors in his first 2 seasons.
we should have traded him.
You see how there are absolutly no young pitchers out on the market today and when they come by you throw 100 million at them. That is why trading away Kennedy or Hughes or Horne or Wang and probably a combination of two of them is not worth it. It is really rare that you get a good young pitcher let alone the three and four if you count Wang in a rotation. Leave them together and I think we will be in good hands for this year and years to come
Trading for Santana would be nice, but the Yankees will survive with or without him. I’m sure that Cashman has an extra insurance plan or two in place.
Meanwhile, I’m scheming to find a way into those Winter Meetings next week. I need to make the three-hour drive to Nashville and see what news that I can gather!
“It is far, far, faaaaar more likely for santana to single handedly win us a ring than it is for arod to do so. ”
and yet Johan is 0 for 3 in postseason series as a starter. why is that?
oh, because no one can win a baseball game single-handedly?
interesting.
I dont want to trade cano hmm. I just said that. But the fact is we want santana, the twins want position players and you cant trade, melky cabrera and jose tabata for the best pitcher in the game. And I for one, would rather trade cano than any of our pitchers – cano is jsut much easier to replace than hughes or kennedy. We have orlando hudson on the market next season and if that doesnt work out, we have teixera who will replace his production and more in the lineup. Im not saying cano wont be a star but id easily give up a star second baseman for an ace. And YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP SOMETHING TO GET SANTANA. We cant give up a whole bunch of mediocre and unproven players and expect the twins to trade santana to us. bye bye cano.
jdawg – we are not trying to survive here, we are the highest payed team in baseball by fifty million plus. We are trying to win a ring! Santana can do that for us much faster.
“Cano makes a lot of errors if you havent noticed. â€
so what? he’s still the best defensive player in the yankees’ starting lineup. who cares about errors?
that is a bold statement, I assume you mean .. best defensive infielder? Maybe it’s just me.. but I think there is this thing called ‘gold glove’ and who on the Yankee’s in their career have one, two? Does Cano?
Cano in my opinion does not get dirty like other 2nd baseman, in fact I am not sure I can remember the last game he dove for a ball.. I don’t mean run and bend-over.. I mean really dive for it.
Reported this afternoon that the Cubs sign Kerry Wood to a one year contract.
“Why did the Sox win? Beckett. Schill/Pedro in ‘03.
Why did the White Sox win? Great SP from Garcia, Garland, Contrera, Buehlre.
Marlins? Beckett, Penny, Pavano
The yanks 95-2001? Clemens, Wells, Cone, Key, Andy P, Duque”
—————————————————–
I would suggest you post the OPS of those teams.
Teams win on balance and overall strength.
Grade B or better in SP, RP and Offense.
Pitching is very important, but stll just part of the equation.
hmmm schilling and johnson did it in 2001. It was two pitchers, not one. But wang, Santana, chamberlain and Hughes will prolly turn out to be two aces and two very good pitchers. PITCHING WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS NOT HITTING!
Miller- I’m just saying we’ve hit this Santana deal from every angle possible. Wouldn’t mind seeing a vote on whether the Yanks should get Santana(if even possible ) or not. I’m on the fence but leaning towards keeping the kids. I know you were the first on the A-Rod thing and thanks for that but jeez.
Miller.. EXACTLY! The point of a blog is open discussion..
It’s a shame that when your opinion is different from someone else’s your a “hater” and a whole bunch of other derogatory names.
*Their is no civilized blogging, or at least.. don’t place your expectations on humanity to be objective and civil*
“that is a bold statement, I assume you mean .. best defensive infielder? Maybe it’s just me.. but I think there is this thing called ‘gold glove’ and who on the Yankee’s in their career have one, two? Does Cano? ”
no, i mean best defensive player in the yankees starting lineup.
i will pretend i didn’t see the part about gold gloves.
So by daving for balls this makes you a better defensive player?
I’m assuming you were joking about the gold glove thing.
Meant to say “diving for balls.”
pitching is the answer in the playoffs. If we have a rotation of Santana, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes and Pettitte when the playoffs start there is a 99.9 percent chance of winning it all cuz the playoffs is all about pitching. The season may be the entire team but the playoffs is all about pitching.
With Wood off the market, what, exactly, is the plan for the bullpen?
“I don’t mean run and bend-over.. I mean really dive for it.”
maybe you should stop and think about why this is.
why do we see Jeter diving all the time for balls and Cano not diving?
why might that be?
Wow Dave, 99.9% chance? I diddnt know 1-5 in the PS translated into a sure thing championship.
The “let’s do nothing” on the Santana front is a valid position to take, but I think you have to reasonably assume that at least one of the Hughes/Kennedy/Chamberlain trio won’t be pitching for the Yanks or at all in 5 years. The burnout and disappointment rate for young pitchers (even highly touted ones like these) is high. If we’re all expecting all three to anchor our staff for the next 10 years, I think we’re fooling ourselves. The history of baseball suggests otherwise. That’s why I think if you have the chance to trade one of them as part of a package for someone like Santana, who is proven and far more likely to be pitching at a high level in 5 years, you have to do it. Of course it could be that in 5 years Hughes is Santana’s equal, but I’m looking at the situation today, and taking money out of the equation, I would rather have Santana than one of the three young arms plus a Cano-like position player.
how did the 2004 yankees knock the 2004 Twins out of the playoffs?
how is that possible?
team ERA+
2004 Twins – 117
2004 Yankees – 96
wow the cubs just wont give up on kerry wood
Buster olney is reporting on wfan right now that santana wants a 6 yr and 150 million dollar deal on the table in order to be traded to another team. He has a full no trade clause so he can ask for that kind of money and if he doesnt get it, he can say no to the trade and wait until he reaches free agency. That is totally screwing over the twins. He rejects a 4 yr and 80 million dollar deal and says its not even close and now he may not allow the twins to trade him so he can reach free agency and the twins wont get any prospects except the ones they get from the draft.
Also, Wang, Andy, and others might not look so good without Cano’s arm turning DP’s.
1-5 in the PS? I was exaggerating but that is a pretty sick playoff rotation. Why is everything is say taken so literally in this blog but when i take something else literally ppl say i take everything too seriously.
Think Santana losses his no trade clause next year due to not being at least third in Cy Young voting but could be wrong. If so Twins will have till Trade deadline to get a deal done. Seems to make more sense for them to wait if they have too.
That news is music to my ears
The “Little Engine That COuld” probably won’t do that. THe only tem I could see dong that is Omar and the Mets but do they have enough to get Santana?
The real poll should be who wanted Cano traded last May that is now supporting him and doesnt want him traded. I have to say I was one who wanted him traded last May and if we have an opportunity to land an ace now, then id say good bye. Great hitter but his on base percentage and his lack of patience at the plate is not something to brag about. His defense could be construde as lazy. I can understand how someone can see his uniform clean as not trying. I am on the fense in that subject.
If Soriano can be traded for something better,why not Cano? Noone should be untouchable. Sox traded Nomar and won a title without him.
Melky defensively in Center vs Cano at 2nd?
Since you say the whole team.. I’d say Melky is much better defensively. See these are opinions.. they are great to have.. no need to bash someone just cause there’s is different.
Another one of my opinions.. I’d love to see Cano make that Jeter-esque signature play when he jumps, turns and throws to his right in mid-air from the outfield grass.. (Is there a name for this play?) *g
Even if Cano was a SS, I just don’t see it. Next you’ll say that Robinson Cano is a hustler. No, Melky is a hustler but he doesn’t have Cano’s offense.. Cano is more like a young Abreau.
Feel free to disagree, this is not a dictatorship.. it’s a blog.
“but I think you have to reasonably assume that at least one of the Hughes/Kennedy/Chamberlain trio won’t be pitching for the Yanks or at all in 5 years. The burnout and disappointment rate for young pitchers (even highly touted ones like these) is high. If we’re all expecting all three to anchor our staff for the next 10 years, I think we’re fooling ourselves. ”
i don’t disagree with you in theory, but what does the history of baseball tell us about 6′0″ pitchers with 930 innings on their arm over the last 4 seasons?
serious question.
Dave:
Who do you replace Cano with and remain as strong?
Cano is not simply an good 2nd baseman, at 24 he is a future No. 3 hitter and perennial All Star. Finding a replacement for him would be very difficult.
The Yankees, if they propose a deal at all, we likely deal from their current strength righhand pitching prospects and possibly Melky or Tabata or Jackson – but not all three.
The Rule 5 Draft of December 6 may be a key date for Yankee potential transactions. After the Draft takes place, ARod, Posada, and Mo will be added to the 40-man roster and Pettitte will likely decide his 2008 future.
If he decides to retire, I think that the possibility of acqiring Santana becomes stronger.
A young Abreau — meaning he leans more to being average.. than hustler.. not anything else.
substitute there’s with theirs above.
rooster are u kiding me? I hope your joking. Every secondbaseman in the sport can turn a double play. Even the util infielders who play 10 times per yr at second can turn quality double plays, dont be ridiculous.
So the twins want hughes, jackson and melky and then, santana wants 6 yrs and 150 million. That is not exactly a bargain. I would do it if we can replace hughes with kennedy or horne. The money is a ton but worth it – six ys only takes santana until he is 34. He will prolly still be pretty dominate considering he is a pitcher that will likely age well. I think he could still be worth 25 million at 34 yrs old. Unlike Rivera who certainly wont be worth 15 million at 42 and posada who may not be worth much in the last yr of his contract – a part-time dh at best.
Cano should switch positions with Jeter anyone agree here?
However the numbers say he’s an above average second baseman. If diving for balls = great defense then Jeter definitely should have won those 2 GG’s
“Another one of my opinions.. I’d love to see Cano make that Jeter-esque signature play when he jumps, turns and throws to his right in mid-air from the outfield grass.. (Is there a name for this play?) ”
why would you like to see him make that play?
i am perfectly content watching him range far to his right, field the ball with plenty of time to plant his feet, and make a perfect throw to 1B.
I said this before and I’ll say it again: I would not pay twice for Santana. You want to sign him as a FA and just give up draft picks? Fine! But no way would I give up big prospects AND all that money for him. I’m also not a fan of signing pitchers to long term deals.
Cano is a better defender at his position than melky if you compare them to the league average. Cano is a top 3 second baseman defensively in the AL while Melky is maybe a bit better than average.
I believe the defensive metrics bear this out, perhaps someone with more knowledge could confirm?
“i don’t disagree with you in theory, but what does the history of baseball tell us about 6′0″ pitchers with 930 innings on their arm over the last 4 seasons?
serious question.”
serious answer… I have no idea. What are you suggesting? I don’t follow you.
If diving=talent then Aaron Rowand is the greatest player of all-time
Johan has a full trade until opening day 2008, then afterwards it covers 12 teams that he can’t be traded to.
“serious answer… I have no idea. What are you suggesting? I don’t follow you.”
i am suggesting that i agree with you that prospects are no sure thing, especially pitching prospects.
but everyone here is assuming Johan is absolutely injury-proof, and i would guess that history would suggest otherwise for pitchers of his build who throw as hard as he does.
150 million? Why not get a pitcher a notch below,save the prospects and pay less. OSWALT? Or wait till next years free agent class and go after Peavy.
If im not mistaken, we won all those championships without a cy young winner(except for clemens,NOT SURE IN A CHAMPIONSHIP YEAR). Solid pitching needed. Doesnt have to be Cy Young.
After double checking, Olney reports that it’s a full trade, but I can’t find anything concrete on how long that stands b/c there is some speculation that since he didn’t finish in the top 3 in Cy Young voting he goes down to 12 teams after opening day, as per what JDnotDrew has said earlier.
Ah… gotcha. Of course you’re right about Santana in that respect. I did say in an earlier post that the injury possibility should probably be viewed pretty much equally for Santana as it is with Hughes or anyone else, which is the same as saying that it should be removed from the discussion. Unless you’re talking about someone with a history of arm problems or a recent Tommy John surgery or something, I would gather that the likelihood of Santana getting seriously hurt or worn down is no greater than for any other pitcher.
lathamjoe
I would have liked to get luis castillo but the mets gave him a ridiculous contract. He would have been a decent replacement for cano. Otherwise, you can stick a bandaid in there until orlando hudson becomes a free agent next yr or you can trade for a young second baseman using all the pitching prospects we have as you said. There are other ways to replace canos hitting – we can acquire a real first baseman or a better hitting centerfielder than melky like rowand and stick betemit at second. Next yr, if we cant get orlando hudson ( who is prolly a better hitter than cano cuz he walks) we still can sign teixera to replace his production in the lineup. There is really a ton of options to replace cano. When we traded soriano, we were left wondering who would be our long term solution at second and we found cano – that could happen again. ALL I KNOW IS Santana is far more important for our future and for getting a ring than cano is. Everyone always wants pitching and says pitching wins championships and when we finally have a shot to get one of the best pitchers in the last decade, everyone is arguing with me about traind cano for him. You need to give up SOMETHING for santana. I would rather give up hitting than pitching and cano is really the only one we have to give right now other than melky and minor leaguers who arent worth much right now. We have to give up cano and worry about replacing his production in the lineup and his glove after the trade is made. Cano walks so little it shouldnt be very difficult to find someone who can put up a similar obp. We would only be missing the power he gives us. The replacement would prolly get on base more and cano has absolutely no speed so a replacement may make up for power by having a little more speed.
Dear Hmmmmmm…..
Because of this entry by you a little while ago….
“Jeter has made 13 or more errors in 11 out of 12 seasons in the majors. he made 40 errors in his first 2 seasons.
we should have traded him.”
I would like your full name, address and credit card number to replace my laptop, that is now covered in Heineken spray (from my nostrils!) and nachos from me choking and laughing at teh same time.
That was hands down the funniest thing I’ve read to date by you on here. God bless ya, should I be paying a cover charge when I enter this room?
By invoking his demands for “6 years $150 Million”, Santana has already narrowed the potential Twins trading partners to a precious few.
Too bad about Kerry Wood. But, my wife (cubbies fan) is happy.
Those of you who want to mortgage the future by having 30+ outfielders, infielders, etc., its your right to advocate for it.
We have a core group of 30+ players now (Arod, Jetes, Posada, Matsui, Giambi), do we need more? Sigh…..
Yes, Hughes will not equal Santanna for the first few years. But, in four or five years, when Hughes is 25 or 26 and Santana is 34 or 35, I like the chances that Hughes will be as good or better.
We will score 900-1000 runs next year. We have the best closer in the game. We have the best hitter in the game and decent (not great) fielding with the present team.
SP is better NOW than it was opening day 2007. It will get better as the kids mature and other kids are brought up from the minors.
With all of this, WHY trade the kids away, and go for more 30+ old players????
We will make the playoffs in 2008. Will Hughes/Chamberlain/etc. mature enough to dominate the post season? Who knows. Lets now blow up this team and its future to get yet another all-star for a few years.
The term “ace” or No. 1 starter is misunderstood. If the supposed No. 1 starter opens a 4-game series and wins but the other 3 don’t, the shine is all worn off that opening game.
In actuality, the No. 1 starter is whoever takes the ball the day of any game. A good starting staff is a well balanced staff. Managers and pitching coaches know who matches up well with who and make decisions accordingly.
er…. lets NOT blow up this team and its future to get yet another all-star for a few years.
That is totally screwing over the twins.
Dave,
How is Santana at fault for asking for the contract that he deserves? Pohlad is worth almost 3 BILLION DOLLARS (caps intended) and he won’t pay for the no doubt best pitcher in the game. Why even own the team? I don’t get it.
And, ErikP has a point…
What ARE the chances that all 3 of Joba, The Franchise and IPK will all be pitching for the NYY even 3 years from now, much less anchoring the rotation for the next 5-10 years ?
I remember a team in the late 90’s that had two great, young pitching prospects that would take the team to the land of Multi World Series victories…
That team was the Cubs, and those pitchers were Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.
Anyone in here day trade, sell stocks, etc? SELL HIGH !
If Hughes, IPK, the Melkman and one of Tabata/Gardner/etc can get the NYY the best pitcher in baseball…. DO IT NOW !
Don’t even wait for Nashville, Cash-ville! Do it now !
I’ll gladly take a rotation of JSantana, CMW, Joba, Mussina and a number 5 fill-in, maybe a youngster, Horne, Karstens, etc… And who knows, maybe Pettitte will come back !
Then imagine (if you can) Santana (L), CMW (R), Pettitte (L) Joba (R) and Moose (R) ?!?!?!???!
John Henry Christmas ( the pc version of Jesus H Christ ) ! What a rotation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Luis Castillo is horrible.
Cano’s career OBP Avg. – .346
Hudson’s career OBP Avg. – .343
Cano’s career OPS – .835
Hudson’s career OPS – .770
Cano – 25
Hudson – 30
Do you really think Hudson is better than Cano?
There are a lot of factors to consider when thinking about Santana. Im on the fence, im very glad i dont have to make that decision, and its why brian cashman does what he does and gets paid for it BUT here are a couple of points, if the yankees go without santana, its about the future while seeing if we can win in 08. If Hughes and Joba have a good season in 08, it means we are set for the next few after that. If they dont, they have to get better someother way.
If the yankees do trade the kids for santana now, it doesnt mean that the yankees cant restock the minor leagues. The guys in charge who created these minor league teams will still be in charge and can move towards finding a good 2b/cf/lhp, what have you.
So im on the fence. You can argue both sides for hours. I think its a toss up. Only time will tell.
Jax at 5:24, sos27 at 5:28 – I’m tending to agreeing with you. The goal is to win a championship, not accumulate AllStars at every position; though Haren and Oswalt could be AllStars players.
Everything/body has a price, and sometimes that price is reckoned to be onerous. Cash has to see what that price for Johan Santana is, and decide if it is truly too much.
Dad in Iowa,
How is trading some combination of Hughes/Melky and a prospect or two for Santana “blowing up the team”??
Also, I like how you pooh pooh the idea of getting “another” all star. Oh yeah, who likes having those guys on the team!
DadinIowa
November 26th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Too bad about Kerry Wood. But, my wife (cubbies fan) is happy.
Those of you who want to mortgage the future by having 30+ outfielders, infielders, etc., its your right to advocate for it.
We have a core group of 30+ players now (Arod, Jetes, Posada, Matsui, Giambi), do we need more? Sigh…..
Yes, Hughes will not equal Santanna for the first few years. But, in four or five years, when Hughes is 25 or 26 and Santana is 34 or 35, I like the chances that Hughes will be as good or better.
We will score 900-1000 runs next year. We have the best closer in the game. We have the best hitter in the game and decent (not great) fielding with the present team.
SP is better NOW than it was opening day 2007. It will get better as the kids mature and other kids are brought up from the minors.
With all of this, WHY trade the kids away, and go for more 30+ old players????
We will make the playoffs in 2008. Will Hughes/Chamberlain/etc. mature enough to dominate the post season? Who knows. Lets now blow up this team and its future to get yet another all-star for a few years.
=========================================================
Yes, but Dad, getting Johan is different than going after a 40 year old RJ, or a 45 year old Air Bus (whoops, I mean Rocket!).
He is in his prime, as was Pedro when the Sox got him in 1997. Pedro too had a small frame, which is why the Dodgers traded him away to the Expos, thinking he was too small to be an effective starter, much less an ace…
Seemed to work out for the Sox ok…. And, if the NYY gets Johan at 28 for 6 years, then we have him untiul he’s 34… then we go after Phil Hughes, who will, probably at the same time, be leaving Minny for free agency….
Ha!
Unlike his father, Hank Steinbrenner is not enamored with every marquee name available. The son appears to be a long term thinker as evidenced by his support of Brian Cashman’s approach of having a strong farm system and has made statements saying such.
George would have demanded Santana in the old days 5 minutes after ther last pitch was thrown in the Cleveland series.
Then you have to figure that if Hughes spends another half season on the DL in 2008, plus Joba and IPK both have ERAs of over 4, then they lose all their prestige, a la Phil Humber and Mike Pelfrey.
The Mets could have traded those two for anyone last year, along with Lastings… not any more!
It’s nice Pete mentioned Carl Pohlad’s enormous personal wealth (listed in Forbes in the billions). It’s funny to hear the ‘YES Network’ supposed wealth claim in Pohlad’s defense,
as the Steinbrenners’ share is only somewhere in the 30-35% range. Shares of the YES Network have been on the market for quite sometime and key decision-making could change in the future. Torii Hunter used to speak of the divots he knew about on the cheap field in Minnesota, since he was lucky enough to know about them he was less likely to fall and break his neck. That’s what’s fascinating about baseball, that people think Pohlad deserves a pat on the back for anything.
I remember the Mets trio of next big things, Bill Pulsipher, Paul Wilson, & Jason Isringhausen, the talk was they would be anchoring the staff for years. Look what happened to them.
dadinioawa, Santana is 28 and the whole point is not to mortgage the future to get santana. He wants six yrs so if we sign him to 35 and only have to give up one great player who has shown a ton of potential or a good one and some prospects for him wouldnt that make us better for the next 5 yrs? We are getting the best pitcher in baseball during the prime yrs of his career and we dont have to mortgage our future for him.
ML,
You misread what i was saying. The twins want santana (their ace and the best pitcher they have ever had) so they offered him a record contract for a pitcher – 20 million per yr! He says no.
The twins want to get something back for the best pitcher they have ever had but santana wants to go on the free agent market to make as much money as humanly possible so santana says no you cant trade me to get prospects in order to compensate for losing me.
So not only are the twins losing the face of their franchise, their best player, their ace and one of the best players in the history of the team. But also the twins offer him a record contract and he flat out says no way and that they are millions apart. Not to mention, the twins want some compensation for their best players and santana says no you cant trade me for some of the best prospects in the game cuz i want to go into free agency.
Santana has every right to become a free agent and get as much money as he can. But ill say it again, he is totally screwing over the twins. If nothing else, let them trade him and if the team cant pony up (sorry) the money, go to free agency anyway. Atleast then, the twins can get some fantastic prospects for him.
DadinIowa:
Most of us agree 100% with Cashman’s “new” philosophy of building a championship with home grown talent.
No one is advocating “mortgaging the future” The point is, the Yankees has a wealth of righthand pitching prospects.
The Red Sox used the same philosophy in dealing Annibel Sanchez (their strength) and Hanley Ramirez for this year’s ace – Beckett.
Without him, they don’t get to the World Series. It was gamble for them, too, and the Red Sox farm system was not depleted.
Really, I don’t think the question is close at all. Sticking with the kids and watching them develop will be very entertaining. As a Yankees fan since 1961, through dark times and dynasty, I can’t remember feeling so optimistic about the future of my team.
I hope $man is wise enough not to blow up what he has in Melky, Cano, CMW, Hughes, Chamberlain and IPK. What a future to look forward to!!!
OMG, it is a good thing George isn’t running the show. I.Kennedy would have been traded on July 31 for Gagne. Hughes would have been gone last year for Abreu. And Joba for who knows what.
Sorry, that’s “have a wealth of righthand pitching prospects”
We have TWO position players starting every day who are under 30 years old. Now, many of you want to trade one or both of them. Who do you think will replace them? Young players or old? With our lack of ready minor league prospects, probably 30+ year old replacements.
I have faith that in a couple of years, perhaps even next year, no one will even consider trading Hughes for Santana straight up. I think Hughes will be that good. That is not an extreme belief.
Yet, some of you want to trade Hughes, Melky and Cano for ONE SP. Sigh…..
Dave,
I didn’t misread it, I just disagree.
1. Santana can’t accept a trade and go to FA anyway, because no team is going to make a deal that MN will accept unless they get a window to negotiate. And Santana loses leverage if he can only negotiate with one team.
2. If the Twins are unhappy about this situation, there’s a very simple solution: sign him. Yes, he’s asking for a huge, record contract. His record and his age suggest he deserves it. If the Twins don’t want to do that, then they deserve what they get.
3. Pohlad is making the choice to pocket his millions instead of signing Santana. He’s the bad guy here, not Santana.
Dad in Iowa,
But it’s Santana…lol
Cano should be untouchable, as I’ve said all along!
I love Melky, but he’s a league average CFer, much easier to replace than finding a lefthanded Ace.
Dad,
No one wants to give up Hughes/Melky/Cano. That would be too much. We are, however, willing to give up Melky plus MAYBE Hughes and a prospect. If it’s Cano, then I’d only give up a prospect or two since he’s a bona fide all star.
Have you watched Santana pitch a lot? I mean that seriously, not sarcastically. I’m wondering if you realize how good he is. He had a 3.33 ERA in a “bad” year! He’s lefty, which is great for the Stadium and which the Yanks need badly, and he loves pitching in NY.
No one wants to bust up this team. But if we can deal from some of our depth in young players to get a proven young star, then it’s worth it. As Dave said, you have to give something to get something.
Mel: That seems to be the reasoning. An all-star!!! We MUST get him, no matter what it takes! No matter if it is mortgaging our future. Sigh….
I wouldn’t be shocked if Santana is ultimately traded for minor leaguers with a bright upside (Home?). They may want that more than paying Santana his $13M this year and then losing him to FA next year.
Why do I think that few teams will want to pay Santana $20-25M per year AND lose major league talent?
We’ll see. I just hope that we’re not the ones who pay double the price.
raymagnetic,
you are one of few baseball fans who wouldnt trade a great hitting secondbaseman with average power, no speed and almost no eyes (career obp is about 30 points higher than career avg) for the best pitcher in baseball in his prime. Its ridiculous arguing with you. You dont want to trade cano for santana why? Because it is difficult to replace a good hitting secondbaseman. Are you kidding me? I think its more because yankee fans have become obsessed with hording young talent. This is because these fans forgot what it was like to have young great hitters and pitchers after being deprived for so long. You keep some of them and use others to make the team better. See what we did with soriano. WEe developed him and he turned into an all star and then we traded up, to have the best hitter in baseball and make the team better. Now we can take cano and some great prospects and acquire the best pitcher in baseball and be the best team in baseball.
Instead you want to horde the young talent and save them until they become the best in the game which just doesnt happen. You cant completely ignore the flaws of your homegrown talent pretending like they will go away as the player ages. Cano is 25 – i doubt anything is going to improve much at this point. The guy just doesnt know how to walk – he is a free swinger and always will be – 350 obp is the best he will prolly ever have. The guy is an amazing hitter and will prolly win a batting title but he wont win us a ring. He doesnt walk, has just a little power, plays sloppy defense at times and has absolutely no speed. He will always be at the bottom of the yanks lineup. Santana is the cream of the pitching crop- he is 28 yrs old and will lead this superb yankees pitching staff for about six or seven yrs. He is one of the few pitchers who can be the best pitcher in the game and pitch in the American League.
As for replacements, who the hell cares? Luis Castillo does not suck but he doesnt deserve 25 mil and is not as good as cano. He is an excellent number two hitter however. Orlando Hudson has been steadily improving and had a break out season last yr. He has some power and some speed and had a 370’s obp last yr. He is prolly not as good a hitter as cano but he has more speed and a better glove. He is prolly one of the best second baseman in baseball and we will learn next yr if last yr was a trend or a fluke season. He is a free agent after that. And I like how you completely ignored the idea that we could replace canos production in the lineup with teixera’s next season – very clever ignoring the ideas u agree with. This yr we could do the same replacing melky with rowands hitting and signing a better first baseman for a yr instead of phillips top replace canos production this yr. Another idea you totally ignored. Anyway thanks for being so close minded ray.
If Pettitte doesn’t come back then the Yanks will have to get someone(Santana ,Haren,)else they wll be stuck with only Wang and maybe Kennedy who can give you 200 innings. AP needs to come back.
DadinIowa said – “Mel: That seems to be the reasoning. An all-star!!! We MUST get him, no matter what it takes! No matter if it is mortgaging our future. Sigh….”
Exactly…LOL I love the sarcasm, because I feel the same way. I have no interest as a fan in returning to the George-goes-wild 1980’s and thinking we have to get someone just because they were an all-star.
Dad,
Please come in off the ledge.
As we’ve said, no one wants to get him at any cost. We are just willing to get him at some cost. You’re starting to sound like you wouldn’t trade Melky straight up for Santana.
Also, please stop sighing like you’re so much smarter than everyone else. And using the phrase “mortgaging our future”. Hughes and Melky for Santana is not mortgaging the future. It’s making wise use of the future. Not every prospect pans out.
Finally, I agree with you that in the end we may not have to give up Hughes or Cano to get Santana. Although the minor leaguers name is HORNE, not HOME. You might want to actually learn the names of our prospects before lecturing everyone else about how valuable they are.
Dave-Think you’ve convinced me. Philips at second with Duncan/Giambi/Betemit at first if you had to. Then get a CF or go with Damon/prospects. It would clear the log jam at first and Santana would be in pinstripes. Might even be able to keep Hughes/Joba/Kennedy given them Melky and Cano.
Dave. Who would you replace Cano with?
Dadiniowa,
There is very little chance ppl will not want to trade hughes for santana straight up as early as next yr. The reason being santana has already won two cy youngs. Even if hughes wins a cy young as early as next yr, santana would still be held in higher regard as he has already done it twice. Also, santana has put up better numbers in the majors than hughes put up in single, double and triple A. Granted, Hughes numbers have been impressive – extremely impressive in the minors. But santana has actually put up better numbers than those against major league clubs in the American League. Whcih should tell you how good santana actually is.
you keep referring to santana as another all star like he is only good enough to be on the all star team. What you must realize before continuing to talk against getting santana is that this pitcher is by far the best pitcher in the game in both leagues. And the crazy thing is at this point there isnt even any competition. And the American League is considered a far, far better hitting league and satana puts up the best numbers against those hitters in that league yr after yr. WHIP (WALKS PLUS HITS PER INNING PITCHERS) is a great measure of a hitters talent. Out of all our starters, wang was by far the best and he had a 1.29 whip. Last yr, he was runner up to santana for the cy young vote and he had a 1.3 whip. Sabathia won the cy young and was prolly the best pitcher in all of baseball this yr and he had a 1.14 whip ( the best of his career.) Closers usually have the best whips because their job is to keep runners off base and Mo (arguably the best closer of all time) has a career 1.046 whip. That is an incredible whip and a whip under 1 is pretty much impossible to get in the majors. Santana did it three consecutive yrs before going up to 1.073 last yr (in his off yr.) Santana also career-wise has more than a strike out per inning and a career era of close to 3. His strike out per inning ratio is fifth on the all time list and his career whip is 16th all time. His strikeout to walk ratio is 6th on the all time list and his hits allower per inning pitched is 24th all time. These stats are being compared to guys like sandy koufax and nolan ryan remember who pitched in a different age of hitters. Also, johan has been top ten in cy young voting every season since his first full season in 2003.
This is why we want to give up some prospects for him (more than most. We dont want to mortgage our future but we do want him playing for the yanks and he will cost a price. Just look at how good he is.
bronx stop – i just said … there is a lot of options. But not many this yr unless u improve offense at other positions to make up for the loss of cano. I would have liked to sign castillo to a one yr deal but the mets decided to go all out for him. Otherwise, we can get rowand to replace melkys bat in the lineup which would add to the production and stick betemit at second. We could try to upgrade the offense at first. Or we can trade some prospects for a decent secondbaseman. We can go with what we have now and wait until next yr, put teicera at first and someone wuality in center to replace the production we got out of cano. Or we can try to fill our hole at second from within and hope we get lucky again like we did when we brought up cano.
Also. With the offensive production we will have next year you could really argue that the Yankees do not need a pitcher of Johan Santanas caliber to win it all. Look at this team with the addition of Dan Haren from the A’s. For real look at it.
1.) Pettite 2.) Wang 3.)Haren 4.)Hughes 5.)Chamberlain
All backed up by a lineup of (in order):
1.)Jeter 2.)Damon, 3.)Cano, 4.) Rodriguez 5.) Abreu 6.) Posada, 7.) Duncan 8.)Matsui, 9.)Cabrera
With a bullpen looking like:
1.)Mussina 2.) Vizcaino 3.)Farnsworth, 4.)Ohlendorf 5.) Any other youngin’ esp. Karstens. 6.)Rivera
And remember without all the injuries we had last year we would have easily won at least 100 games. The key to this is getting a trade for Haren that does not involve Cano, Melkey, Wang, Hughes, or Chamberlain. Makes sense to me.
The Bronx Stop – Not bad. I would miss IPK, but not bad.
dave. have to disagree with you about cano. You don’t think he will get any better offensively? he doubled his walks this year from 06, he hit 19 hr’s and 97 rbi’s at the bottom of the lineup. will he ever walk 100 times a year? no but I think he can get his OBP around 375 which is fine. I think he is the future #3 hitter in our lineup with 25 hr 100+ rbis not too mention possibly a future gold glover (bowa has said this numerous times)
i’m still on the fence about santana but I do know I wouldn’t give up cano AND hughes in the same package.
PLease dont trade Melky and Kennedy, PLease dont trade Melky and Kennedy…
Dave & ML-
Totally agree with you guys, let’s get Johan or Haren.
I would think the piece required to get haren would be almost equivalent as those demanded to get santana. I think the a;s would want alot of talent for haren. I wouldnt use the excuse that the offense will be so good we wont need pitching. One, everyone said the same exact nonsense last yr and look where we ended up in the playoffs – desparately needed better pitching. Two, the entire offense is a yr older and looking like a bunch of geriatrics at times. Damon is aging 10 times as fast as he should be. Posada is going to come to a yr eventually where he just falls apart. Giambi cant stay healthy at all. Mussina is becoming more and more of a liability as well and farnsworth should barely be considered as part of the roster – he cant pitch anyway. Matsui is also getting old. We may have more injuries next yr then we had last yr. The offense didnt really get injurred that much- they just were absolutely horrible for half of the season. a righty bat at first would be a nice addition if that was possible and a closer that can pitch the eighth inning is prolly our most vital need but will once again be completely overlooked by cash.
Haren would be a great addition to the Yankees, though Santana is more of a pitcher than Haren, who throws hard. I don’t think Santana is a must for the Yanks and would be very expensives in terms of young talent. Yanks may want to keep either one of them out of Boston, which is a player for either one (see Bill James knows talent, though no-brainers in this case)
Todd,
I agree- i would not give up cano and hughes in the same package either – no way. Its one or the other. Where we prolly disagree is that i would rather trade cano in a package than hughes because young pitchers are so much more of a rare commodity than young hitters even if they play second. I dont think cano will ever have a obp of 375. Last yr it was at 350 and altho he walked more than the yr before, he hit less. So his obp went down and he struck out much more and i think that those were all directly related. Is cano a great hitter? Yes, he could easily win a batting title some day soon. Do i think he will be a superstar one day – no way. I dont think his obp will ever be much better than 360 which isnt much higher than league avg. I dont think he will ever hit many more than 20 homers so he will have the same power as jeter with not nearly as good of eyes. He also plays some poor defense at times. Id much rather trade cano than hughes. And id much rather have santana on the yanks than cano. If i had to choose cano, hughes or chamberlain to be the centerpice of this trade id pick cano every time because again, it is soo much easier to replace cano than it would be to replace chamberlain or hughes if they become what everyone thinks they may become. You guys are nuts to not trade cano for the best pitcher in baseball. I cant believe yankee fans are even having this discussion with me.
I know I will probably be ridiculed for saying this (but that is okay) but I really see Dustin Pedroia winning a gold glove before Cano. I’m not saying that Pedroia is an all round better player than Cano, but I do think he is better defensively. This last year Pedroia had six errors while Cano had thirteen. Cano only had nine errors the year before but he also only played in 118 games. In 2005 Cano had 17 errors.
Some posts on here have said that “who cares about errors.” Let me state the obvious. If it is the ninth inning and you are leading by one run, but the other team has two men on base an error by your team at that point is probably the difference between a win or a loss.
Hey, I didn’t realize IPK’s wife posts on this site. I can’t think anyone else would object to trading him for Santana if it enables the Yankees to retain Cano, Hughes, Joba, and Action Jackson.
Minny’s demands for Santana are ridiculous if you consider the fact that he is leaving them in 09 whether a trade is done or not. The maximum they should get in trade is the value of 1 year worth of Santana on a contending ballclub. They are not negotiating from a position of leverage IMHO and the deal has to be contingent on an extension being signed.
I wouldn’t trade Cano, Hughes, or Joba for him and I certainly wouldn’t dump the rest of the farm for him. Minny will probably find someone to roll, but I don’t think it will be the Yanks.
dave. cano is entering arbitration so I’m not sure the Twins are going to want to pay him in another year or two, they already have to worry about morneu (sp?) and mauer I don’t see them paying alot of money for another position player. that being said its fairly ok to disagree with me about cano’s future. I don’t think he will be a superstar (because of his lack of power) but I could see him hitting 320 with 25 hrs 100+ rbis 40+ doubles and an obp of 370. thats not easy to replace. who knows if teixiera will test the FA market or not but I do know cano has the talent to be a great player in this league and its hard to for me to swallow trading away him plus 2 other high prospects on top of paying santana 20+ million dollars.
Miller needs to get Greenberg & Santana to refuse any negotiation of an extension with the Twins or any trade partner. This is Greenberg’s big chance to move up the agent food chain.
Santana loves pitching in New York and has great respect for the Yankee$.
the todd-
FYI Mauer is already locked up
07:$3.75M, 08:$6.25M, 09:$10.5M, 10:$12.5M
Morneau was offered a few deals but is holding out for more cash, probably FA.
“I don’t think he will be a superstar (because of his lack of power) but I could see him hitting 320 with 25 hrs 100+ rbis 40+ doubles and an obp of 370.”
Those kind of numbers from a 2B make him a superstar. If he’s hitting above .300, he only needs to walk 40, 45 times to have an above average OBP. As for people saying that he doesn’t WALK enough…the guy’s had an OPS above .840 for the last two years. As a second baseman. And he’s slick defensively, as long as he doesn’t lose focus. As he matures, he’ll most likely get better in that respect.
Anyone who thinks Robbie Cano is not already a top 2B is crazy. He is not easily replaced. Orlando Hudson, while amazing on D, is NOT the kind of hitter Robbie is. He’s a piece to build around, like Jeter and Jorge before him. You don’t trade those guys away unless you have people behind them in the minors…and the Yanks DON’T.
If they trade Robbie, it’s going to be several more years of losers like Womack before they find a long-term replacement. Trade from DEPTH. Right handed pitching and CF are the places where the Yanks have organizational depth. Thus, Robbie is untouchable. It’s as simple as that.
buddy i didn’t realize that … that helps my point, by 09 cano would probably be making a little less then 10 million depending on his numbers but I can’t see the twins paying mauer morneau and cano almost 10 million a piece.
Man, I really wish Duncan had panned out. A AAA slugging corner IFer would REALLY be a great chip right now.
Eric Duncan, that is.
whozat. i’m on your side. if they ever did trade him they could move some of their SS prospects to 2nd but that would take years for them to be called up. just not worth it. not for santana. not for anyone. sorry dave. but i said it.
it would be foolish to give up Cano, period. Yes, i’d consider it a “deal breaker” if the twins were to insist on his inclusion in a deal for santana.
santana’s going to cost $150mil. that price +cano+hughes+cabrera is just too damned much.
i can only hope the yankees get a “reasonable” deal done.
for the money involved, i really can’t imagine that ANY team would give up the kind of talent that is being discussed.
“Some posts on here have said that “who cares about errors.†Let me state the obvious. If it is the ninth inning and you are leading by one run, but the other team has two men on base an error by your team at that point is probably the difference between a win or a loss.”
this is really sketchy logic. i didn’t say errors don’t matter during games, i am saying that errors are a bad way of measuring defensive prowess. you can’t get charged an error on a ball you don’t even get a glove on b/c of poor range. and Cano has excellent range.
i am tired of debating santana, b/c like migames said above, there ARE good arguments on both sides.
but some of you guys are MASSIVELY underrating Cano.
Cano was a much better player than Jeter in 2007, offense + defense. at 24 years old.
do you think it is likely or unlikely that he will improve from ages 25-28? i’d guess “likely”.
cano is not a prospect. he is already a star who just happens to be young.
why would you trade such a player?
Get Haren the Red Sox are not gonna put $20-$25 million on there budget and don’t have enough prospects without hurting there future for Santana.
Let the Mets get Santana.I would give up Kennedy,Melky,Marquez and take Chavez contract.That will net us Haren and a prospect.
Haren,Chien-Ming,Joba,Phil Hughes,Pettitte.Now thats a rotation better then the Red Sox.
“their SS prospects to 2nd but that would take years for them to be called up.”
Do they even have good SS prospects? My understanding was that any decent middle IF prospects they have are in A ball at the highest.
“would give up Kennedy,Melky,Marquez and take Chavez contract”
And do what with Chavez?
“I don’t think he will be a superstar (because of his lack of power) but I could see him hitting 320 with 25 hrs 100+ rbis 40+ doubles and an obp of 370. ”
40 doubles and 25 HRs now qualifies as a “lack” of power.
mind-boggling.
Can anyone verify this?
Why do people think Haren will be cheaper than Santana, exactly? He’s under control for more years and younger…the A’s have no real desire to trade him. Unlike with Santana, it’s not like they’re in imminent danger of losing him for nothing. Beane’s only going to trade Haren if he gets a package he wants. There’s no downside to him holding on to the guy. I think it’s going to be just as expensive to get Haren as it would be to get Santana. Sure, Johan’s got a better resume, but Haren has more years until free agency and thus is cheaper. I think there’d be more teams playing in a Haren market, which also drives the price up.
whozat thats why i said it would take years for them to be called up … they have a few guys in low ball. but i was just saying they *could* do that. dont see it happening at all.
“but Haren has more years until free agency and thus is cheaper”
here I meant cheaper in dollars. In all other places I meant cheaper in players.
“Do they even have good SS prospects? My understanding was that any decent middle IF prospects they have are in A ball at the highest.’
The Red Sox have a good SS prospect in Jed Lowrie. He has been playing AAA and is considered the fourth best prospect by some accounts and is rated a 4 star prospect. I understand that Yankees would love to have Santana. What team wouldn’t? But it is kind of comical to be in the state of denial and allege that Boston does not have the prospects or would not spend the money to get Santana. I think we learned in the whole Dice-K thing is that Boston is willing to spend the bucks.
“But it is kind of comical to be in the state of denial and allege that Boston does not have the prospects or would not spend the money to get Santana. I think we learned in the whole Dice-K thing is that Boston is willing to spend the bucks.”
Well obviously alot of Yankees are in denial about the Red Sox farm system, it is not as good as several people say. I’ll admit Lowry is good, Moss, and several others, but pitching wise they are week. The Twins will be seeking a good pitcher and a center fielder back in the deal, Boston has both of those if they are willing to trade Buccholz, and obviously Ellsbury. Yankees have several intriguing pitching options as well as Jackson/Melky/Tabata for center. My thoughts is it hurts the Red Sox more if they were to have to give up talent like Ellsbury and Buccholz, because besides Clay, I’m pretty unimpressed with their pitching in the minors (Twins may also ask for Masterson). Ellsbury is electric and brings ton of energy, losing him and replacing him with Moss would hurt them. The Yankees on the otherhand are not as hurt by a deal for Santana, there is plenty of pitching left to replace those traded away, but Hughes and Chamberlain are definitely irreplaceable and not worth trading (Kennedy is good too, but he is the most replaceable).Centerfield wise the Yankees can only afford to part with one of Melky/Jackson/Tabata, and unlike Boston, they are weak with position players, unless you go way down. I think Minnesota would prefer pitching over anything, and I think with the depth the Yankees have, they can make the best offer.
whozat-
Put Chavez in first I don’t care as long as we have to give up Kennedy over Phil and also not Jackson.
hank running his mouth again:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3129086
Am I the only one thinking about the 90s Braves?
They built a team around a core of young pitchers, and that team actually won crapola on occasion.
Just not when they played the Yankees
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7493250
Seems like it’s official that Santana is on the block and the Yankees are talking a trade.
I really believe Cashman already knows or is very certain of Pettitte’s decision and we may be able to judge this by who he makes a play for in Nashville.
Will it be a starting pitcher capable of at least 15 wins or will Cashman focus on strengthening the bullpen knowing/certain that Pettitte is returning for one more year?
Big Stein
It could very well be the case that the Yankees would make the best offer for Santana. As you have ably articulated it depends on what a team is willing to give up. I was not intending to argue that Boston would necessarily make a better offer for Santana, only that if they choose to Boston can be a serious player in the “Santana sweepstakes.”
Changing the topic a little. Obviously Bartolo Colon is not the pitcher he was a couple years ago but he is available and I am hearing little or no discussion about him. Do most people feel that there is nothing left in the tank in reference to Colon?
Remember even though the farm Mariano,Pettitte,Jeter,Jorge,and Bernie helped the 90’s Yankees as a dynasty.
But remember big deals and non-farm help like Roger Clemens,Cone,O’Neil,David Wells,Tino Martinez where as important as the farm hands.
I like this farm ideas but to think you can only win with just that is stupid.A 200 inning pitcher with 200 strikeouts last year and under 30 years of age with two Cy youngs and no health problems doesn’t come around these days even in this rotation where everybody is a health risk and 3/4 of them has been in the DL in the last two years.
Anyone who wouldn’t trade cano and a prospect for Santana based on likely wins during the regular season is thinking like a rotissery gm. There is a reason why the Yankees have won the most regular season games over a long period of time but have had poor success in the playoffs. The team is built for success in the regular season – strong lineup and deep 1-5 rotation, but relatively weak (when compared to the top playoff teams) 1-2 starters. There is NO single player that would be more valuable than Santanna in reversing that trend. No single player or prospect should be untouchable in trade negotiations.
LathamJoe
November 26th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
whozat:
Read my response. It had nothing to do with the fact that Brien Taylor never pitched in MLB, the fact was he WAS the crown jewel of their MiLB system in 1992-1993.
Do you know Brien Taylor well enough to call him an idiot?
Do you know the circumstances surrounding his injury? He was protecting his brother in a bar fight when he injured his shoulder? I met Brien Taylor when he pitched for AA Albany-Colonie and he never struck me as being anâ€idiotâ€.
__________________________________________________
Brien Taylor’s part in the fight wasn’t even at the bar. He was at home. He was told about the fight starting at the bar and went to the guy’s trailer with his brother. Brien Taylor was jumped by a couple of the guys, and, he landed on his shoulder.
Taylor’s now a brick layer in Beaufort, SC and has his kids and living at his mothers.
ok im not so against trading melky anymore (i cannot believe im saying that) but picture it: santana + yankees lineup = WORLD SERIES WIN 27! he could go like 27-4 or something if this offense rocks again
Aubrey-
If a 40 year old Randy Johnson can win 17 games twice and overrated Chien-Ming Wang can win 19 games twice think of Santana.Also the offense if healthy can be better then last year.
ray
November 26th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
I know I will probably be ridiculed for saying this (but that is okay) but I really see Dustin Pedroia winning a gold glove before Cano. I’m not saying that Pedroia is an all round better player than Cano, but I do think he is better defensively. This last year Pedroia had six errors while Cano had thirteen. Cano only had nine errors the year before but he also only played in 118 games. In 2005 Cano had 17 errors.
Some posts on here have said that “who cares about errors.†Let me state the obvious. If it is the ninth inning and you are leading by one run, but the other team has two men on base an error by your team at that point is probably the difference between a win or a loss.
_____________________________________________________
Of the 13 errors that Cano committed in 2007, 7 came in three games, and 5 of those came in one week (3 against the Mets) during a time in which he was in a deep offensive slump. Taking at bats to the field is never good, but, he’s young and still learning and still learning 2nd base. He was a 3rd baseman/utility infielder in the minors. There is no 2nd baseman in baseball better at turning the DP and very few outfielders, let alone infielders can match that arm. I don’t recall any throwing errors from Cano in the last two years. He’ll win his GG’s.
Pedroia may win a GG but he won’t be a better hitter then Cano.Cano hits better then Jeter.
You know at least Hank Steinbrenner gives up more Yankees updates then Pete.
the yanks have depth in right handed pitching but they dont have depth in future Major league aces. If they traded cano, they wouldnt have to trade extremely high prospects i would hope because cano is already one of the best second baseman in the game. They can prolly trade cano, melky and one prospect and the twins may pull the trigger. Altho they might ask for kennedy instead of the lower prospect. That is alot but i would still do it. i just dont want to lose chamberlain or hughes.
I would have no problem including
Hughs in a trade for Johan.
Hughs has a very lazy curveball & his fastball
comes to the plate slower than the gun reads, just
like some guys are sneaky fast he is the opposite
he’s sneaky slow his 95 comes to the plate looking like 89-90. he’ll never be worth more then he is right now.
And he’ll never be Santana. Keep Joba, trade Melky.
filthy slider if that is true why was he ranked number one of all pitching prospects and top five of all prospects last yr according to baseball america? I guess they dont agree with your assessment. Ive never heard the term sneaky slow – after his injury, he wasnt throwing any faster than 92 and 93 which really hurt him. When the gun read 95, hughes is almost unhittable. Thus, the almost no hitter in his second game in the majors. I think hughes will be better than joba in the long run. Id rather trade any one over hughes, wang and Chamberlain except for arod, jeter and posada. Id trade any rookie, any prospect and any one on the 40 man roster except for those six.