Countdown to Winter Meetings begins
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- November
- 26
The Winter Meetings get started one week from today in Nashville, Tenn.
In the interim, perhaps the Yankees will acknowledge that they have signed Jose Molina, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera and Alex Rodriguez. The 40-man roster is at 39, so at least three players are getting lopped off at some point. Do everybody a favor and release Carl Pavano at least.
More importantly, Brian Cashman and Hank Steinbrenner have to decide what is too much for Johan Santana. Here is my exceedingly unofficial list:
Untouchable
Robinson Cano
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Fight to keep
Austin Jackson
Trade bait
Ian Kennedy
Alan Horne
Melky Cabrera
Jose Tabata
Now keep in mind that the Twins are excellent at talent analysis. Santana was once a Rule 5 draft pick. They could well be more interested in players whose names haven’t come up. Dan McCutchen, Jeff Marquez, guys like that. Just because we know who Jose Tabata is doesn’t mean the Twins think he’s any good.
Unless the Twins are blown away, they’ll wait to make sure they get everybody’s best offer. A new GM doesn’t trade his best player without making sure of that.
The irony of this is that Twins owner Carl Pohlad is wealthier than the Steinbrenners. If he wanted, he could keep Santana. But it so far doesn’t appear he wants to.
This entry was posted
on Monday, November 26th, 2007 at 10:11 am by Peter Abraham.
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Interesting, Pete…I guess Tabata’s lack of power thus far has caused you to deem him less valuable than Jackson? Or is it that Jackson is, in your opinion, closer to the majors and so he has more value to the Yanks?
In all the stuff I read, Tabata is still ranked higher than Jackson, but that’s based on ceiling, not what they’ve shown to this point.
hopefully, that’s the exact list Cashman has on a Post-It note next to his PC. in total agreement there, Pete.
Santana may well be on the downside. the Yanks should stay away from any overpriced pitching talent. How soon we forget about the Great Randy Johnson.The object is winning a World Championship and building the foundation for a string of titles thru the infusion of youth from a well stocked farm system.
I have no desire to defend Pohlad, but given the value of the YES network, are you still suggesting that he is a financial equal in this?
What would have happened to the Yankees if Pohlad bought them instead the Stienbrenners? Even with all of thier quirks we should thank God that they own the Yanks
Hot of the press! Hope you had a good vacation, Pete.
Don’t you think that Betemit could be good trade bait in the Santanna trade as well? He’s a proven major leaguer he could easily be a starter.
My issue is the possibility of the Yankees trading two or three other players in addition to the ‘main’ guy…
the Yankees have to replace every player they trade, and the options out there aren’t always the best ones.
Mitchell’s Eleven – Hopefully Cashman has a mac and not a pc. I would hate for him to be about to close a deal with us getting santana….
but he can’t – his computer has blue screened..
Pohlad is worth 2,800,000,000 dollars the stienbrenners piece of the Yanks and Yes come nowhere near that
I think alot of it is that RJ could not handle NY… Santana might not be able to handle new york either… That is one of the benefits of farmhands coming up thru the system…
whozat
November 26th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Interesting, Pete…I guess Tabata’s lack of power thus far has caused you to deem him less valuable than Jackson? Or is it that Jackson is, in your opinion, closer to the majors and so he has more value to the Yanks?
In all the stuff I read, Tabata is still ranked higher than Jackson, but that’s based on ceiling, not what they’ve shown to this point.
__
I wouldn’t be overly concerned about Tabata’s lack of power. The FSL is a notorious pitcher’s league with big parks. Tabata is barely 19 and weighs around 170 or so, had a broken hamate bone and a cyst in his wrist. The fact that he was able to hit at all, much less hit .307 with any power at all should tell you just how good he really is. I watched him some this year, but, saw a lot of him at the age of 17 last year in the Sally League. He’s an all around special talent.
i hate to say it, but i bet theo has a mac.
Pete-
In Taipei for a few days on business, did you spend anytime here when you were working on the CMW book ? Any recommendations on where to eat, etc…
Even though theo has a mac – i still don’t like him…
Harley Peyton
November 26th, 2007 at 10:24 am
I have no desire to defend Pohlad, but given the value of the YES network, are you still suggesting that he is a financial equal in this?
_
Pohlad is worth 3-4 billion dollars, he’s well into his 80s. He’s got enough money to by the Red Sox, Yankees and the Dodgers, and have enough left over to buy hotdogs and a couple of beers.
if Pohlad wasn’t willing to spend the $150M to keep Santana, he should have used it to put a roof on their new stadium.
that decision is going to cause confusion and regret for decades.
We are lucky to have george. He wants to win… Pre yes network – George was probably in the bottom half of wealth from an owner standpoint
me either, el comaduce….
and i agree with you about not trading away our young talent for santana. his stats have decreased STEADILY since 2004.
his batting average, OBP, and SLG against have risen from year to year since 2004. he also gave us a career-high 33 homers in 2007 in 219 innings, his lowest total since he was split between the rotation and bullpen in 2003. his WHIP also broke 1.00 for the first time since 2003.
he was like 0-5 against the indians, 0-1 red sox, and lost almost all of his games against the tigers as well.
I seriously doubt the Yanks will be willing to give up what the Twins will ask for in order to get Santana.
Although it is fun to speculate, I think if a trade happens the Met’s are the more likely team.
imagine being able to own a team – just for a second…. MINDBLOWING
So the genius who told us that Don Mattingly was a lock to be the next Yankee manager and that aliens would land in Central Park before A-Rod re-signed has now informed us that Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes are untouchable. That almost guarantees that both will be gone before Christmas.
Bob-
Since when is 28 years old the downside of your career, it’s actually the beginning of his prime time years. Yeah, he gave up more HR’s than he has in the past & his ERA was up a bit, but his #’s are in line with the past couple years. If you can get him for the trade bait players listed by Peter, you make that deal.
Santana may well be on the downside. the Yanks should stay away from any overpriced pitching talent. How soon we forget about the Great Randy Johnson.The object is winning a World Championship and building the foundation for a string of titles thru the infusion of youth from a well stocked farm system.
C’mon now Robert.
Change of subject:
Anyone know when 2008 schedule comes out?
How about individual game tickets on sale?
I am trying to do some long-term planning on a trip to the stadium. Anyone have any suggestions on where to stay in NYC?
El Comaduce
November 26th, 2007 at 10:44 am
We are lucky to have george. He wants to win… Pre yes network – George was probably in the bottom half of wealth from an owner standpoint
_
Stei9nbrenner went bust a couple of times. Once in the ‘70s and again in the late 80’s-early 90’s. I think he only had about 2 million of his own money in the team when he bought it with nearly 30 others, and even then he had to put up American Ship Building to do that. Imagine George Steinbrenner tied up with 30 minority stockholders.
The best line about him from that era: “Nothing is more limited than being a limited stockholder with George Steinbrenner.”
yanks rule:
here is a great place in my old neighborhood, the upper west side.
http://www.ontheave-nyc.com/main.htm
easy to get to the stadium form there. take #2 train from 72 st ( steps from hotel) change to # 4 at grand concourse in the bronx
Pete, I agree with the untouchables, but realistically, I doubt the Twins will make any trade that doesn’t include Phil Hughes or Joba for Santana.
Yanksrule57-
Not official, but pretty darn close.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=67698
The Yankees website should tell you on sale dates for tix, it should be soon though.
Take a look at Josh Becketts #’s before this past year, pitchers have down years, & if you call Johan’s year a bad one or one in decline, you are not thinking clearly.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beckejo02.shtml
buddy B, not only am i thinking clearly, i am merely stating facts ( stats ) on santana.
i’m not saying he isn’t a great pitcher, but his numbers have gotten steadily worse.
if you want to pay a guy like that 150 million after giving up three great prospects, fine.
but i don’t.
Again, keep the kids. Melky should be on the untouchable list. So should Ian Kennedy.
DadinIowa – Who would you trade for the best pitcher in baseball? (Santana)
agree on this list.
while i know it’s a long shot, and its being reported that the Twins want Hughes and AJax, i would tell them you can have Melky, plus one of those two (Hughes OR AJax), and another player.
If they pick Hughes, no Kennedy. If they pick Ajax, no Tabata.
If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future, but only if they feel Gardner is more than one year away, or wont be a full time MLB player. Rowand isnt what he was this past year, but he can cover a ton of ground in CF and can add a little RH punch to balance the bottom of the lineup. I wouldnt touch Andruw Jones.
DadinIowa,
I have to disagree with you on Melky and Ian Kennedy.
All indications point towards Austin Jackson becoming an ML center fielder. We could part with Melky AND Kennedy in a trade for Santana, make due with Damon, Matsui, Abreu, and Duncan in the OF and/or look for a cheap, viable replacement for the short term.
Having said that, giving up Kennedy and Melky isn’t even close too enough for Santana, so it is moot.
Last year tickets went on sale about Dec 20th. I anticipate it will be around the same date again.
Don’t stay at hotels on 8th ave. If you have a particular hotel in mind, ask here before booking it. I wouldn’t go for a cheap hotel if I were you.
mike f-
I am not interested in Rowand or Damon playing CF, if the acquire Johan, but he is not in decline.
I agree with jake… i would not mind a defense first center fielder for a while… We can carry that with a-rod at third. I really think giambi is going to have a good year for us this year… I have no idea why – i just think he will play with a bit of a clear conscience…
I agree on Giambi, plus he’s in a contract year, not that helped Andruw Jones.
Jake,
Let me see, you end up trading Robbie’s buddy (that can’t help his production); you replace a good fielding center fielder who is young with another 30+ year old replacement at the cost of $10M more than you were paying; and for that privilege you get to pay the new pitcher $25M per year (who will be 29 this season) and lose a 21 year old who is projected to be another Mussina (250+ wins so far).
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. If Santana wants to come here (which has been reported, evidently), he will use his no trade to make sure he gets here either through a trade or through free agency next year. If he doesn’t care where he goes, let some other team overpay in money and proven young talent for him.
buddy b, i don’t care who you want in center field…i haven’t mentioned the position today. and if you LOOK at santana’s stats he IS declining. you seem to be obsessed with defending him, but you are not presenting the evidence as i have.
Given that Tabata is a better prospect than Austin Jackson, that doesn’t make a ton of sense. Both should be untouchables though and the Yankees shouldn’t go after Johan.
DadinIowa,
I understand your argument and agree that Santana will be an expensive man to keep around. On the topic of Melky and Robbie being best buddies, I highly doubt that will hurt Cano’s production. Dude is coming in to his own and is going to be a legit force in that lineup before you know it.
As it relates to letting some other team have fun with Santana’s new contract, I don’t disagree, but the thought of him going to Boston just scares the living crap out of me. Wouldn’t be a good scenario.
And I know we haven’t talked about this, but any injury speculation regarding Santana is unimportant. There are no indications that he is injured in any way and since we all know the Yankees are better than the Twins, we should assume that he’ll do better for the Yankees than he did for the Twins…last year anyways.
Johan Santana has stated that he loves to pitch in the big stage of New York. If that be the case, he’d be wise to wait for free agency and see the talent it would take to get him remain with the Yankees to help him attain some championships and rings.
DadinIowa – i agree with your thinking. I would worry about cano, him and melky are uncomfortable close.
the IPK comparisons i have seen stated that he was Mussina with less fastball… Are they talking about the mussina with the orioles? Or our Mussina…
Is it me or was mike throwing alot harder when he faced us as an Oriole
mike f-
If you get Johan, you will definitley be trading Melky, therefore you need a CF to replace him, is it worth signing Rowand to a huge contract in addition to signing Johan to a $150M, I don’t think it would be the best idea. If you are going to make that move for any pitcher in the league right now, it’s Santana. Big deal his WHIP broke 1, it was 1.073, you know how incredible that is? A few more HR’s, that’s just a couple more fastballs, strikeout pitchers always give up HR’s, the same can be attributed to BA, OBP, & SLG.
Did he have a down year for him, absolutely. Becekett’s ERA was over 5, he could easily have been chosen for the Cy Young this year.
If anything , Cashman can get Johan for less according to him being in decline according to you.
“If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future”
serious question, at what point does the money become a dealbreaker?
Rowand is going to get $14M/year after Hunter got $18M.
Santana wants a $25M extension.
you now took 2 players (Hughes and Jackson) who can make
try this again:
“If they pick Melky and AJax, I would have no problems signing Aaron Rowand to a 4 year deal to play CF for the near future”
serious question, at what point does the money become a dealbreaker?
Rowand is going to get $14M/year after Hunter got $18M.
Santana wants a $25M extension.
you now took 2 players (Hughes and Jackson) who can make about $1M and traded them for 2 players who will make $55M/year after the luxury tax.
and since i believe Jackson will probably be better than Rowand by 2010, i am not sure you even improved your team by very much overall.
Hughes will most likely never be as good as Santana, and Jackson is still far enough away to not really know his true impact, but if i were making the decision, i think i’d take my chances with Hughes/Jackson + $54M/year over Santana/Rowand.
everyone thinks Santana is the Yankees ONLY chance to land a true #1 starter, but you never know who will emerge or become available in the next year or 2.
”...putting All-Star Game starter Dan Haren in play for a possible blockbuster trade.
Haren (15-9, 3.07 in 34 starts) has been one of the American League’s most reliable starters in the three seasons since he was acquired from St. Louis. He is under Oakland’s control for three more years at the ridiculously affordable total of $16.25 million.”
Does anyone think we should trade Alan Horne and Jose Tabata with cash for Haren??? Lol. I may be underestimating Harens worth a little bit, but I know it wouldn’t cost as much as Santana….
I’m not sure why any of our young pitching prospects is on the untouchable list in the sense that you would always be willing to give up a single pitcher (as part of a larger trade) for a much better pitcher. If the Twins wanted Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana, as long as the rest of the deal makes sense, you have to do it b/c Santana is better than Hughes. It’s likely that the Twins would want a very high level position player like Robbie Cano plus a position player prospect, but as long as we’re talking about losing only one pitcher in the deal, you have to do it. What the rest of the trade looks like then becomes the issue, but when you’re talking about an elite, young pitcher like Santana, none of your picthers should be on any kind of “off limits” list.
There’s no point in Santana being the centerpiece of the winter meeting as far as the Yankees are concerned. Getting the bullpen right should be Brian Cashman’s priority before any thoughts of Santana take place.
Beckett’s 2006 was not because of some random statistical fluctuation.
he had blisters that made it difficult for him to thrown his curve with any bite. as a result he was basically a fastball pitcher who wasn’t fooling anyone.
it wasn’t an “adjustment to the AL” year. it wasn’t an “off year”.
he was “injured”. he had blisters that affected his pitching.
his situation has absolutely nothing to do with Johan’s, so i wouldn’t use that as any sort of evidence that Johan will bounce back.
Hmmmm….. I agree. I think IPK is a harder thrower than Moose is now, but only a mph or two over Moose in Baltimore.
I’m not even scared about Boston getting Santana. If they get him, they will pay in talent too. Besides, Santana in Boston is NOT going to keep us from the playoffs. Remember, we’ll have 900-1000 runs scored again this year with (hopefully) a better SP staff that doesn’t include Pavano or Igawa or Chase Wright, etc.
We have beaten Santana in the playoffs before, and we can do it again. Keep the faith in our youngsters. Keep the kids.
I would like to agree with all who think Santana is overpriced. I think it is time we started using our young talent instead of trading them for players who think they are God’s gift. We have a boat load of young players coming up sthru the system. Wait for them to develop. It isn’t going to be the end of the world if we don’t win it all this year. Why not wait for a year. Everything doesn’t have to be done right now. Learn some patience people.
I dont want to lose Melky and Kennedy but I dont want to see Santana go to the redsuxs. That is the last thing we need to have happen.
i’d much rather they make a trade ( not hughes, IPK or Joba)
for danny haren…he’s sturdy and would cost us much less than santana.
i would miss melkys arm in center but having our ace as a number 2 behind arguably the best pitcher in baseball would be great…
Signing Rowand to a multi-year deal would be a big mistake.
Here’s hoping the Yanks either get a good deal on Santana by virtue of his NTC, or have the good sense to pass.
“I’m not sure why any of our young pitching prospects is on the untouchable list in the sense that you would always be willing to give up a single pitcher (as part of a larger trade) for a much better pitcher. If the Twins wanted Phil Hughes in a trade for Santana, as long as the rest of the deal makes sense, you have to do it b/c Santana is better than Hughes. ”
i keep reading this everywhere, but it’s just not that simple.
there is roughly a $200M difference between Hughes and Santana and you are simply ignoring that aspect of it.
the Yankees are rich and can afford it, but that doesn’t mean they SHOULD afford it.
Santana wants a $150M extension, which is $210 million with the luxury tax. Hughes will make about $20M total over the same period.
let’s say Hughes tops out as a #2 starter and Johan is a #1 starter for the life of his contract (which is not guaranteed either).
can the Yankees use that extra $190M to make up the difference between Hughes and Santana by improving in other ways? i’d bet they can.
Having Andy Pettitte return and putting together a reasonable deal for Dan Haren is the ultimate improvement in the starting rotation for 2008. Santana is going nowhere until his free agency. This gives the prime young pitching another year to develop their finishing touches.
Concern over what Boston does makes no sense whatsoever. They may be dumb but not stupid in giving up Buchholz, Lester, and others to get Santana. The Yankees will win out in any bidding war for Santana one year from now.
Pete’s list is right on. Unfortunately, a deal that doesn’t include Joba, Phil, or Cano doesn’t make it past the door.
Pete what about the theory that they will not make the signings official until after the Rule V draft so they can protect more players that way?? We on the blog seem to think that is the reason they have not made official these signings as they would have to remove 4 players from the protection list and they just added 3 last week.
Having some experience living out in Twinkie land….
The Pohlads are the classic example of people who know the price of everything and the value (outside of business) of nothing. I like owning a piece of a Pohlad-run investment, but not being a fan of a team they own. The competitive Twins teams of recent past are a result of Terry Ryan’s skill at building a scouting & development organization, the only way they compete (in what is not exactly a small market, either, they command most of a large 4-state area). This is the only way the team could survive economically, since Minnesota fans are notorious for staying away in droves when the team isn’t winning. They’d, very literally, rather go fishing.
Carl Pohlad is the man who determined that elimination of the team via contraction was the best future for it, after all. It took a court decision over the Metrodome lease to prevent contraction from happening. That is not the approach of a man who’d go a little soft so Johan could throw Opening Day at the new park.
That said, a package headlined by Melky Cabrera as the ‘proven’ position player coming back won’t get Johan. Smith is getting hammered over Torri-for-nothing and this trade will have to look decent. If Johan softens to 5/25+ with option vesting, a deal for Cano & Melky & prospects might get it done. But I think he winds up with the Angels, who have pieces to move and money to spend. Even if nothing happens this winter, watch what Cash does midseason if the SP oldies & kids aren’t making it happen in the first half of ‘08. Stay tuned, more drama to come.
Oy ya como va, screw Santana, I want Haren!
Pete,
The Twins know very well who Jose Tabata is. Since he was a Top 30 prospect on nearly all lists at the age of 17, I’m sure any talent evaluator in baseball knows the name and knows the potential.
I can’t believe how so many people here overrate Yankees prospects and underrate the best pitcher in the game.
“Santana is in decline”??!! I’ll take a guy who puts up a 3.33 ERA in a bad year any day.
And I’m not sure why people think Melky is the second coming of Joe D. I like him, he’s got spunk, but he hits about .280. I like his defense, but he’s still expendable. And Cano will not start hitting .240 just because his friend is gone; that’s just silly.
I agree we shouldn’t give up too much, but you have to give something to get something. And this something is the ace that we need to put us over the top.
I’d give Hughes, Melky and Betemit. This would give them the CF and 3B they need, plus a top young pitcher. YOu may say this won’t get it done, but the price may drop eventually as time goes by and Minny fears losing him for only two draft picks in return.
I think the issue is risk. I love Phil Hughes and the rest of the “kids” and I would love nothing better than to watch these guys grow up and be successful with the Yanks for the next 10-15 years. Phil Hughes is still, however, a prospect. He could end up being a total bust, a journeyman, a servicable starter, an ace or anywhere in between (remember a guy named Sam Millitello?? Exactly). Santana is a proven #1 and barring injury (a possibility which exists for both Santana and Hughes) getting him carries less risk than keeping Hughes. That’s why he makes more money and that’s why you’d make the trade if he becomes available. And regarding the money, I totally agree with your assesment, but I just don’t think that applies to the Yanks. I really can’t envision a scenario where they make a trade decision (or make a decision not to make a trade) and money is even a small part of that decision. Should it be a part of the decision-making process? Sure. I just can’t ever see that as a motivating factor for them.
“Phil Hughes is still, however, a prospect.”
depends how you look at it. he is a prospect.
but he is also the Yankees #3 starter next year.
he was ALREADY a league average starter in the AL East at 21 years old in an injury plagued season.
so, while his ceiling is certainly still up for debate, i think the likelihood of him being a total bust is small.
“I can’t believe how so many people here overrate Yankees prospects and underrate the best pitcher in the game.”
don’t lump everyone together. not all of us who are hesitant to trade Hughes think Melky is the second coming of Joe D. i wouldn’t hesitate to trade Melky in the right deal.
I believe we should make a concerted effort( again! almost an annual ritual) to improve the bullpen.David Riske is intriguing as well as Troy Percival.We need a lefty out there so maybe we have not seen the last of Ron Villone,or gasp, Sean Henn.
If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!
“the Yankees are rich and can afford it, but that doesn’t mean they SHOULD afford it”
Not sure what this SHOULD means?
Immoral to throw money around like that?
Or is it some notion that this expenditure would empty the coffers and keep them from buying other players? Doubtful…
“so, while his ceiling is certainly still up for debate, i think the likelihood of him being a total bust is small.”
This could be completely true, but what is also true is that whatever probability you attach to Phil Hughes being a bust, the probability for Santana is far lower. What is very likely is that Santana is the better pitcher between the two for the next few years, and that’s what the Yanks have to be concerned about.
i trust the yanks , they will make the right trade….in the past 10 years name one bad trade…the first randy johnson trade u can say was bad but if u look at it deep the yanks got the best of it and if u add the most recent trade of randy back to the dbacks the yanks realy got the best of the dbacks…cashman may make owfull signings but he makes great trades..look how good the bobby abreu trade looks…the only bad trade is when the yanks traded desamo marte for enrique wilson(thats a joke) but other then that name one…....
Hughes can’t be the Yankees #3 starter next year for inning limit reasons. Same with Joba. Joba and Hughes have to be the 4th and 5th starter to make sure their innings don’t pass 150 – 160. Don’t be surprised if they go with a six man rotation for a little while if needed. The only one of the big three that could be a #3 next year would be Kennedy.
The question is how much better will Johan be than Phil Hughes or whatever other pitcher they trade for him. Is Santana going to be 200Mil better than Hughes?
I doubt it. It’s not like the Yankees can not afford Santana but the question remains is the opportunity cost justified.
Not sure what this SHOULD means?
Immoral to throw money around like that?”
no. of course not.
“Or is it some notion that this expenditure would empty the coffers and keep them from buying other players? Doubtful…”
not quite.
it’s really not that complicated. all i am talking about is getting the MOST for your money.
would you rather spend $50M on Santana/Rowand or $30M on Hughes, Jackson, and Miguel Cabrera?
which would produce more wins for the yankees? i’d guess Hughes/Jackson/Cabrera.
IOW, spend that money, but not on players that will ALSO cost tons of good talent just to acquire that player.
there will be other pitchers available if the Yankees don’t get Santana.
I would like to keep Melky, but I do think he is a tradeable commodity.
I’m not so certain about a trade for Santana. I hate the idea of having to give up so many prospects and I absolutely abhor the idea of letting Robinson Cano be included in any trade. I’m just a little gun-shy – the Yankees have not been very lucky of late in the acquisition of starting pitchers. Of course, Santana is one of the very best in the league right now, and if they are set on getting him, it wouldn’t be the end of the world, I guess.
However, if a trade happens and Cabrera is involved, what would anyone thing of taking a flyer on Andruw Jones? Since he’s coming off an absolutely horrendous year, perhaps he could be acquired for one year plus option and a relatively small amount of money. I think he is far too talented a player to have had his skills totally diminish so rapidly. Plus, he’s not all that old.
Of Hughes and Kennedy, if I had to choose to keep one, I’d keep Hughes. But it’s a very lukewarm choice, since I don’t want to have to give up anyone!
THE YANKEES WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP 3 TOP YOUNG TALENT TO GET A 29yr OLD PITCHER WHO HAS NOT BEEN THAT DOMINANT AS OF LATE, AND WILL REQUIRE $25M/YR TO SIGN FOR AT LEAST 6 yrs.
I WOULD MUCH RATHER LIKE TO SEE THE YANKEES OFFER THE SAME PACKAGE THEY ARE OFFERING FOR SANTANA (KENNEDY, HORNE, TABATA) TO OAKLAND FOR DON HARN AND HOUSTO STREET. THEY WOULD GET THE GOOD, SET UP RELIEVER THEY DESPERATELY NEED FOR MO (AND THE RELIEVER OF FUTURE), PLUS A GOOD STARTER (ALMOST AS GOOD AS SANTANA).
BOTH ARE YOUNGER (HAREN 27, STREET 23) THAN SANTANA, AND WOULD FILL TWO AREAS OF NEEDS, WITHOUT HAVING TO TIE UP THAT MUCH MONEY IN LONG CONTRACT FOR A DECLINING PITCHER.
“Joba and Hughes have to be the 4th and 5th starter to make sure their innings don’t pass 150 – 160.”
i’m not sure Hughes’ cap is that low. he threw 146 innings in 2006. i could see it being 170-180 innings.
Bob-
Did you say SAntana is in a downhill.I mean two Cy Youngs in three years.Can a guy have a off year like Manny,Ortiz.Mussina is in a downhill.
Did you compare a Prime Santana to a 40 year at he’s was the problem not pitching in the A.L or pitching in New York.Unless you are Pedro a 3.33 Era and 230 strikeouts is something overrated Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang and unless you are gonna rebuild you ain’t gonna go three rookies in your rotation.
MiLB.com 2008 Top 50 Prospects: 41-50
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/
41. Ian Stewart- Rockies
42. Alcides Escobar- Brewers
43. Jeremy Jeffress- Brewers
44. Tyler Colvin- Cubs
45. Radhames Liz- Orioles
46. Jeff Clement- Mariners
47. Johnny Cueto- Reds
48. Carlos Triunfel- Mariners
49. Austin Jackson- Yankees
50. Dexter Fowler- Rockies
“If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!”
Damon could play CF for a year.
i would guess that a healthy Damon outperforms Melky next year offense + defense.
Jay,
Why would Oakland trade Street?
1. Pittsburgh has a new front office group. Get lefty reliever Damaso Marte for DeSalvo, Henn, and cash considerations.
2. Get RH starter Dan Haren from Oakland for Clippard, Rasner, Bruney, and Sardinha.
3. Sign FA lefty reliever Ron Mahay and FA righty reliever David Riske or re-sign Vizcaino.
Consider the winter meeting a success until Andy Pettitte calls to say he’s coming back.
jay-
I would go after DAn Haren or Houston Street but Satnana is still a better pitcher then Haren and we have to hope the Angels get Cabera and the A’s go though a fire sale.
Jay – Do you honestly think that a Kennedy/Horne/Tabata package would be enough to get Dan Haren AND Huston Street?
“What is very likely is that Santana is the better pitcher between the two for the next few years, and that’s what the Yanks have to be concerned about.”
no it isn’t.
the yankees have to be concerned with building the best TEAM possible.
you guys are OBSESSED with having Johan Santana b/c you just watched Beckett kick ass in the playoffs and now you think the yankees HAVE to have Santana to win the WS.
they don’t.
every single team that has ever won the WS has done it without Johan Santana, believe it or not.
do the yankees need good starting pitching? absolutely.
is Johan Santana the ONLY good starting pitcher in MLB? not at all.
why is everyone focusing on upgrading the Yankees via ONE SPOT in their rotation? there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. and i can’t believe people can’t see this.
for the record, i would LOVE to have Johan. love it. i am not the one trying to argue that Johan is on a steep decline. my point is simply that for every player there is an acceptable cost in terms of money and talent, and there are some people here who think that cost is irrelevant.
or not irrelevant, but they think Hughes/Melky/Ajax + $200M is NOT too high.
that is simply where we disagree. it’s too high.
I really don’t think money has anything to do with it. Any kind of opportunity cost discussion assumes that paying Johan might prevent the Yanks from making some other deal with a different team, and I think the Yanks are far from hitting some kind of financial ceiling. History tells us that when the Yanks want someone, they pay the price. These kinds of “value” discussions don’t seem to enter into the decision. Is Santana today worth 20x, or 50x what Phil Hughes is today? Probably not. But I think that the Yanks look at Santana and see an upgrade over Hughes in ability and that’s why they’d make the trade. Again, all this assumes that the rest of the deal makes sense, but I see no reason to exclude one of our young guys when we’d be getting such a top-end pitcher in return.
I’m not so sure Haren will cost much less than Santana in terms of talent considering their contract statuses.
Which is more valuable over the next 3 years? Santana or Haren + 40-50 million? A lot of teams would probably say choice B.
In essence, Brian Cashman is not interested in paying twice for the same player. Why should he deal top farm products and see the work of building up the farm system go down the drain and pay a pitcher an outrageous amount to pitch every 5 days. Is Santana THAT MUCH of a difference maker ????
“2. Get RH starter Dan Haren from Oakland for Clippard, Rasner, Bruney, and Sardinha”
no, including Sardinha is just too much.
seriously, i think this MIGHT win the award for the worst trade proposal in the history of this blog.
and trust me, that is saying something.
dealmaker why would they want to take our garbage?
hmmm – I refuse to believe that he was even remotely serious when proposing that. My faith in human intelligence would be obliterated.
Surely you jest, right? They’d at least want a bag of Doritos as well.
I would rather send Hughes with less prospects to the padres for Peavy or even lesser package for Oswalt.
I dont think Santana is worth giving up our best young players and paying a rediculous contract for.
It would be flat stupid to trade Hughes for Santana for a number of reasons, age, money, projection, etc. It’s a good think the Yanks aren’t stupid.
Now keep in mind that the Twins are excellent at talent analysis. Santana was once a Rule 5 draft pick. They could well be more interested in players whose names haven’t come up. Dan McCutchen, Jeff Marquez, guys like that. Just because we know who Jose Tabata is doesn’t mean the Twins think he’s any good.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wow, that is totally plagiarized from something Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger said on MLBTradeRumors.com.
In his interview he said: “The thing to remember in dealing with the Twins, however, is that they might not always be after the prospects everybody knows about. The Twins pride themselves on being able to identify and acquire big-time prospects at the Class A level. Players who have come to the Twins’ system at the A-ball level over the years include Jason Bartlett, Lew Ford and Joe Mays, as well as Johan Santana himself and a skinny little hitter whose name at the time was David Arias but later changed his last name to Ortiz and went on to achieve some measure of fame with the Boston Red Sox.
“The Twins’ scouts can spot talent when it’s very young. So there may be some players in the Yankees’ system (and in those of other interested teams) that the Twins would like and we don’t even know about yet.”
Cite a source when it’s so blatant, Pete.
If Pettitte comes back I honestly do not see a great need for the Yankees to add another starter. As great as Fausto Carmona pitched against the Yankees, the Yankees were still one Joe Torre brain freeze away from tying the series against Cleveland. If the Yankees make it back to NY tied 1/1 in that series is there anyone here who thinks they wouldn’t have closed out the series at home?
Secondly as good as Josh Beckett was against Cleveland, the rest of their starting staff was horrible.
Again I ask is there anyone here who thinks the Yankees couldn’t have beat the Red Sox in the ALCS.
I know that’s a lot of ifs but if Torre simply pulls the team off the field during the midges infestation we are all probably sitting here talking about how the Yankees are going to win again next year.
Johan/Peavy/Haren or whoever would be a nice luxury, but none of those guys are absolutely necessary, especially if Andy comes back.
Outside of Joba, I don’t buy any of the “untouchables” Pete has listed up there.
I think Hughes is available only in a deal for Santana.
If the Yankees are going to walk away from Johan over Phil Hughes, I’ll eat my shoe.
You have to give up great potential to land an All Star.
All Hughes is, at this point, is great potential. He has never thrown 200 innings in the big leagues.
Do I see a great future for Hughes? Sure.
Do I think he’s going to have the career of Johan? Probably not.
You make the trade if Hughes is the centerpiece. The Yankees would be nuts to walk away from a legit top of the rotation ace because they are betting on the future potential of Hughes.
As far as Tabata goes, I wouldn’t care if he got traded. I’ve heard the “next Manny” tag slapped to enough young player who don’t turn out to be the next Manny that I’m not willing to hold up a deal over his inclusion. Victor Diaz who tore up the minor leagues with great power numbers was supposed to be the next Manny. Where is he now? He just got released. Again.
If Hughes, Tabata and Austin Jackson get Johan, you make the trade.
Johan is a clear upgrade over Hughes. As for the other 2 guys it’s still way up in the air what they will be.
Johan, Joba, Wang, Kennedy, Mussina (with hopefully Pettitte coming back) is a premier rotation that can win a championship.
giving up our two CFs plus our future Ace is a horrible move, yeh I know it’s Santana but what we accomplish is having to part w/ Melky/Jackson and a # 1 SP in Hughes that just makes no sense, Santana has a NTC he has already announced to his friends NY is where he wants to be the pressure should not be on us…
As for Boston they just won a WS, their not trading Lester & Bucholz plus Minny’s going to ask for more just because they have Ortiz.
Again mission is …..
1)get better defensively, we get worse after this deal
2)stop over spending for 30 yr. old position players, losing Jackson would mean sign and over pay a Rowand or Jones
3)GET AN ACE SP, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE SANTANA w/ or w/o him we are still not the favorite to win the WS, we close the gap but still are nowhere near championship level if our defense is ripped up in the process
i would be wary of any pitcher coming from the national league….
” and unless you are gonna rebuild you ain’t gonna go three rookies in your rotation.”
why not?
seriously, why not? b/c you said so?
this assumes pettitte comes back of course, but if he did, why couldn’t the yankees do that?
I read today that twins might trade Garza for Delmon Young. If they are willing to part with Garza, would anyone pull a Cano for Garza trade and forget about the other big name pitchers.
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Kennedy
Garza
Youngest pitching staff in the league and most promising for years to come. Just a thought.
Oakland does not want the Barry Zito episode to happen again, and not wanting to expend the x-tra bucks, are seeking to rebuild their system with top, young blue-chip prospects. Street is eligible for arbitration soon and there have been rumors he may be available at the right price.
The package I suggested is not set in concrete. It was just an example of what could be done. The Yankees may need to add a fourth or maybe a fifth prospect (Betemit, Gonzales?)
At any rate, a trade for Haren and Street makes a whole lot more sense that giving up that same talent for Santana.
to my knowledge scouts didn’t call Victor Martinez the next Manny in the minors not even in LA, when he was traded to the Mets was when Mets brass coined him that
your not going to fleece a team for starters anymore – look at what boston gave up for Becket. And they had to take Lowell – it is going to be very pricey to get any of these big guns…
hmmm
November 26th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
“If Yanks include Melky in a trade, who plays center field next year? Damon? Yuck!!â€
Damon could play CF for a year.
i would guess that a healthy Damon outperforms Melky next year offense + defense.
I agree with you Hmmm. But then who do they put in left? I don’t think Matsui is the answer there any longer. I think they’d be better off leaving Damon in LF and picking up a Patterson (relatively cheap, short term contract until Ajax is ready) or Cameron (with Damon holding down center till he gets back), or even risking Gardner in CF. He’s supposedly very ready defensively and with the Yanks hitting, I believe that they can afford less OF out of CF if need be. What do you think?
S.o.S. , way too much
man I wish we traded Matsui for some extra prospects that we could have swung to Minnesota
It seems Santana will cost too much. I don’t want to give up any pitcher in a trade for a guy we are going to have to give a huge contract to anyways. I hope the Yankees don’t do something dumb.
“If they are willing to part with Garza, would anyone pull a Cano for Garza trade and forget about the other big name pitchers.”
uhh, no.
i don’t get it. people are scared about starting the season with Hughes, but would trade their all-star 2Bman for Garza, who is really just a “prospect” himself??
i think Hughes’ injuries this year have caused Yankee fans to completely forget just how highly rated Phil Hughes was just a year ago…
Santana will be one of the all time greats, but I still don’t see the Yankees flipping Hughes for him. They’ve groomed him to be their ace of the future. Just because Joba came along and crashed the party doesn’t make Hughes dispensable or less of a pitcher than he potentially could be. It just means that Joba has the potential to be even better than Hughes. I j ust can’t see the Yankees abandoning the plan at this juncture. It’s an opportunity for the whole organization to prove that they can also develop talent not just buy it.
hey guys read on Newsday Damon and Matsui will be discussed in the Winter Meetings
some hope
Mike F, Buddy Biancalana,
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated.
I say the Yankees prepare a decent, but not market value package. Maybe like Kennedy and Melky for Santana. It’s not nearly enough but if Santana wasnts to come to NY (which Hank has emphasized is important so far with the expensive players IE arod) then he will manipulate the no trade clause and the Yanks might get a steal for maybe Kennedy, Melky, and a prospect and keep Hughes, Joba, and Robbie
The thought of Santana heading up the staff is enticing, no doubt. But the acquisition costs us money, depth and creates a hole (CF) that may not be easy to plug, at least not in a cost effective way.
I’m very careful, and I don’t include Joba or Hughes, and I even hesitate on Kennedy.
Melky isn’t deal breaker by any means, but I don’t want the team shopping for a CFer when the top priority now should be upgrading the bullpen.
Right now one of the strengths of the team is the depth of young starting pitching. I, for one, look forward to watchign these guys develop and emerge as potential aces.
Monitor the Santana situation, but proceed cautiously.
jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge
Last year tickets went on sale about Dec 20th. I anticipate it will be around the same date again.
Don’t stay at hotels on 8th ave. If you have a particular hotel in mind, ask here before booking it. I wouldn’t go for a cheap hotel if I were you
Thanks for the info. Mrs. Yanksrule57 (who has patiently put up with me and my Yankees addiction for 25 years) does not like cheap hotels, therefore, that is not an option. I will definitely get this blogs input before booking.
Not a problem.
Adrian.
The Yankees should not invest in a 5 yr contract on any pitcher. You have to have a business plan that fits the times.You tie up 130 million dollars and you could end up with another Carl Pavano.
Fair enough, hmmm. I get that you like Santana, but think the price is too steep. We disagree, but I get it.
I don’t get why the money makes a difference, though. The Yanks have a TON of money coming off the books in the coming years. Giambi, Mussina, Pettitte, Abreu—ALL of these players and their big money contracts will most likely be gone after 2008. Damon’s contract ends after ‘09. So they have lots of dough to spend.
PLUS, YES is a cash cow, and the new stadium will be the ultimate cash cow. They’ll probably sellout every game this year, and for years to come in the new park (seating capacity is going down to about 45K). So money will not prevent the Yanks from improving the team. So why bring it up?
I’d trade Damon or Matsui for Kemp & Broxton. I’ll throw in a good prospect if I have to.
Anyone that says Santana is on the downside has rocks for brains.
The comments about pitch count and the kids are/is (sweet as candy but has a problem with grammar) an excellent point..
Our bullpens sucks… I hope we can plug someone in there….
Cost too much?
Stop thinking prospects are all going to be great. You figure out which ones will be your core ala Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mo, Jorgie. And you trade the others for valued additions.
I think it is safe to say that Johan Santana would be a valued addition.
We’d be fighting for the Wild Card for the next 4 years if Boston trades for Santana.
Bob-
Pitching like Santana doesn’t come along.Don’t forget he had a not great second half but he was angry about no trades to the twins in the trade deadline and alot of people in the Twins were upset Luis Castillo was given away for a bag of Fritos.
And Carl Pavano c’mon.The Yankees knew Pavano only had 1 200 innings season in his career in a contact year,they knew Jaret Wright only had one good career year and failed his first physcial,Randy Joghnson was 40,Kevin Brown was said to the Yankees he’ll lose or win 20 games and had back problems,Javier Vaquez was a #3 pitcher the Yankees forced to be Pettitte.
And to sum it all up they were all N.L. Pitching.The Yankees been through worse I think Santana is the only pitcher worth the risk.
Jax,
I like that trade, but why would the Dodgers do it? Broxton is a key part of their bullpen, and Kemp is a player they are trying to use as part of a package to get someone like Miguel Cabrera.
I can’t stop laughing because I just read someone compare Santana to Pavano. When Pavano gets a Cy Young vote, becomes lefty, and loves pitching under pressure. Call me.
With all these Santana proposals it’s very evident that this blog lacks in suitable chess players.
Hey Jax,
Add in Farnsworth and Giambi and ask for Billinglsey and Kershaw too.
Numbskulls and there insane trade proposals.
If there is one player that is touchable for Santana it is Hughes. For anyone else? Untouchable. But the best SP in baseball? I think they’d reluctantly give him up.
No other team besides the Dodgers can come up with a better offer than the Yankees for Santana.
“So money will not prevent the Yanks from improving the team. So why bring it up?”
it’s not the money. it’s the money AND the talent.
if Johan were a free agent we would not be having this debate as i am generally not one for saving money for the sake of saving money.
the point is that you need to fill 25 roster spots with premium talent. the market for premium talent is NOT a deep and liquid market. once you trade those guys, you can’t get them back.
sometimes you can have all the money in the world, but literally have nothing worth spending it on.
the yankees might have tons of money available, but it is VERY possible there will not be 2 players available on the market that are AS GOOD as Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson will be from ages 22-28.
you can’t just assume because the yankees have so much money coming off the books that they will be able to improve their team. the only way to GUARANTEE the availability of premium talent is to grow and retain your own.
the yankees have one goal: to MAXIMIZE the talent on their 25 man roster.
i am simply saying that trading Hughes, Melky, and Jackson for Santana MAY not be the best way to do that. i am also not saying it definitely WON’T be. i am simply objecting to this notion that such a trade is a no-brainer.
i don’t think it is.
The last thing the Yanks should be concerned about is paying Santana 140 mil for 7 yrs.
They should just hold that up to Minny in negotiations to get them off certain players.
“Stop thinking prospects are all going to be great. You figure out which ones will be your core ala Jeter, Bernie, Andy, Mo, Jorgie. And you trade the others for valued additions.”
right. no one is disagreeing with this strategy.
what we are disagreeing about is that i would include Hughes as part of the “core”.
if Hughes isn’t someone who you think will be a member of your core, who is??
when is the last time the yankees had a pitching prospect of Hughes’ caliber? 10 years ago in Pettitte?
you guys have been completely spoiled by all the young pitching Cashman has brought into the system. just because you have Joba doesn’t mean you trade Hughes.
I think we can safely assume that asking for Hughes, Ajax, and Melky is a first offer. And just the start of negotiating. I really don’t see them being firm on those 3 especailly if they are motivated to move Johan.
“No other team besides the Dodgers can come up with a better offer than the Yankees for Santana.”
this isn’t true.
the Angels, Red Sox, and the Mets could come up with similar offers depending on how far the Mets were willing to go.
You can’t get Kershaw and Billinglsey for Giambi and Farnsworth. Farnsworth stinks and Giambi making 23 million. Okay maybe we can’t get both but one for Damon who is still serviceable and a good prospect.
Matsui for James Loney and Johnathan Broxton. Thats the move to make. You have to approach Matsui and ask him to approve any trade, which may have to include a new extention on the Dodgers part for Hideki, but Loney is a slick fielding natural 1B who is going to hit .300 consistently, and with the short porch in RF, could get you 20 HRs a season. Broxton would give you what Joba was out of the pen last year.
If they want to get an arm back, a back end of the rotation guy like Karstens, Rasner, Clippard, or White would suffice.
DUDE!
The red Sox aren’t trading Ellsbury and the Angels will shoot their load on Miggy. The Mets? You have to be joking. Their system is joke. The Yanks are in the drivers seat.
This is the trade the NoMass guys proposed and I’m quite sure that the Dodgers will laugh at Cashman if he makes this offer.
What no Sean Henn? Why do people feel as though they can offer other teams anybody and get a quality player in return? It’s not happening.
I thought the Mets had a good system. The way their fans where talking during the year you would have thought they had one.
Hughes is good but he shouldn’t tie you down from going to and getting Johan Santana. Especially if everyone is right in saying they have loads of young starters in the minors that are ready to burst. They need a legit ace. That is Johan.
Just because a guy is a prospect and has talent doesn’t make him a sure thing. Ask the Dodgers and Edwin Jackson. The #1 pitching prospect at the time.
“The Mets? You have to be joking. Their system is joke. The Yanks are in the drivers seat.”
if the Mets were willing to empty their system, they could put a package together.
Gomez, Milledge, Martinez, and Pelfrey.
I hear everything you’re saying, hmmm, but once again your comments say nothing about why the money should be part of our concern.
I agree that we should negotiate carefully and not give up Hughes if we don’t absolutely have to. But I don’t agree that the cost of signing Santana should affect the decision in any way. They have the money, so why should it matter?
Let’s forget the money and go back to debating whether we should give up Hughes for Santana. Because’s that’s a debate worth having.
Damon and either Horne or Tabata can get Loney.
The Mets best pitching prospect, Pelfrey, wouldn’t even crack the Yanks top 10.
You can take Wood off the bullpen list. Resigned for 1 year. Didnt want Pavanoesk anyways.
We need to shore up our bullpen. We can have the best starters in the league,without a legit pen,we’re not going anywhere in the playoffs.
No Kerry Wood Yankee fans… http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3128280
Yeah, Jax, because the Dodgers have shown a big willingness to trade their top prospects for overpriced vets. What is with some people? Think before you type.
the old adage may hold true , the best trades are the one`s that are not made. Everyone seems to think Santana is a no -brainer. I`d rather have Andy Pettitte back
Gomez,Milledge,Martinez and Pelfrey can get Santana BUT only if the Yankees,Red Sox and Dodgers aren’t willing to trade their respective farm systems for him.
yes, they made it and i agree with it. The Dodgers currently have something like 4 or 5 rookies penciled in for the starting lineup, and there is no way Joe Torre and Ned Coletti are going to let that happen. They favor veterans way too much.
they are looking to upgrade in CF to move Juan Pierre to LF, but have already missed the boat on Hunter. With the Rangers, White Sox, and company missing out on Hunter, they can throw smaller dollars for Rowand, who the Dodgers were reportedly pursuing. More suitors means less likely. and i doubt Coletti will offer a big deal to Andruw Jones, after losing Drew in Boras’s other opt out debacle.
So an upgrade in LF is another way to sure up that offense. Matsui is a Torre guy, and Torre loves him. the Dodgers are a West Coast team, closer to his home in Japan, and are of the elite franchises in name in the history of the sport.
In today’s market, Matsui can bring back a nice bunch of players. Even if they cant get Broxton, I’d take a combo of Loney and another arm.
believe it or not Hideki Matsui could net us Kemp and another prospect it’s a stretch for to be in that deal Looney but Matsui is a 30/100 type hitter that the Dodgers would need and I bet they’d want to keep Kershaw instead of trading him in a package for Cabrera which they will not get the Yankees could hold a secret card in this
Well it’s not like I said Damon straight up for Loney. I know it won’t happen.
Shoring up the pen doesn’t mean giving 19 mil for 4 yrs to the likes of Linebrink. If he got that much what do you think the Viz will get??? At this point I think I’d grab one of the lefty’s and look for options via trade/Rule 5.
“But that’s just a sampling of players who could be discussed at the winter meetings, ”
Brandon, learn to appreciate the power of the word “could” in media reports. That whole list was entirely speculation. Speculation informed by rosters and salaries, but not inside info. If there was info, they’d have mentioned anonymous sources. And even that wouldn’t be particularly reliable.
A big problem with fan forums and blogs is people hearing speculation, calling it fact without attribution, and then the discussion getting derailed by false info.
Could those players be discussed? Sure, they COULD be. The Yanks right now have a glut of OFers and they’re all left handed. Those guys have some value because they’re productive hitters, can still play the field most of the time, and neither will KILL you out there. But we already knew all that…this isn’t telling us anything we didn’t already know. It’s not like they have anyone in the organization telling them the team is looking to move one of these guys.
Bobby
What are your Brains composed of? a vast mass of Air holes.
this is a blog everything we speak of is could, but most likely w/ Torre in LA he will want a veteran hitter out there.
“Gomez,Milledge,Martinez and Pelfrey can get Santana BUT only if the Yankees,Red Sox and Dodgers aren’t willing to trade their respective farm systems for him.”
well, yeah. if the yankees were willing to trade Joba and Cano, no one could beat that.
but they aren’t.
the Mets could make a credible push for Santana, that is all i am saying.
man I hope people understand this for the last time the Mets have no deal unless they can throw in Jose Reyes or David Wright, they have no chance to land Santana !!
I actually think the Rays have the best package but they never spend money so…....
I’m thinking of the deal the Red Sox did to get Pedro back in 1997. Gave up two arms that, at the time, were considered potential top of the rotation types; Tony Armas and Carl (band-aid) Pavano. That neither panned out as such doesn’t diminish how they were perceived in 1997 – and note, both have had 10 yr major league careers (albeit a lot of DL time). And we know what Pedro meant to the Sox. We can’t know how Ian Kennedy or Phil Hughes will turn out, but they could blow out their arms in spring training, or be the next big things (Joba’s already there).
Bottom line: for the best pitcher of his era (Santana), you give up almost anything on spec, including Cano – second basemen are replaceable (but maybe not Joba).
I agree on letting Viz walk. After seeing how we signed Farns for 3 years and wanted to rid ourselves from him after one, maybe our best bet would be to have our young guys in the farm(ohlendorf,veras,ramirez and any of the pitchers comming off injuries cox)try out in spring training to make the squad. I just cant see ourselves committing another 3 years to Viz or anyone who wasnt a closer of another team last year.
Who knows maybe Girardi can work his magic on farns and get him to pitch to his ability.
I think the darkhorse for a lefty could very well be Igawa.
How about not. I think Matsui to LA is possible. Hideki would probably waive his no trade rights for a reunion in LA where they have a larger Japanese population, but Matsui for Kemp straight up? Doubtful. Let alone Kemp + another prospect.
Lets get agressive with Dan Haren…IMO
Jax thats what happens when you always draft first
You always get the best prospects.
I agree with KLev. Unless you think that Santana isn’t the best pitcher of his generation (or at least one of the top 2 or 3) with a bunch of years left, then I think anything is potentially on the table. I love Joba, and I would love to keep this guy, but he has maybe 25 innings of relief work in the big leagues, and we’ve never seen him as a starter which is where the Yanks swear he’ll be. Maybe he has a Nolan Ryan career, or maybe he’ll throw out his arm in 3 years. I think Santana is virtually a sure thing #1 starter for at least 5 years, so Cano and Joba for Santana? I would probably do that.
“Bottom line: for the best pitcher of his era (Santana), you give up almost anything on spec, including Cano – second basemen are replaceable (but maybe not Joba).”
what does this mean, “second basemen are replaceable”?
everyone is “replaceable”. the question is how much does that replacement cost you in wins.
Cano is probably the best 2Bman in the AL and will probably the yankees’ second best position player in 2008. his replacement will undoubtedly be a downgrade of several wins.
will santana make up those wins? maybe.
but if i had to guess who would be worth more wins to the yankees over the next 7 years, i’d pick Cano over Santana.
“I think Santana is virtually a sure thing #1 starter for at least 5 years, so Cano and Joba for Santana? I would probably do that.”
wow. that is nuts. sorry.
If they where willing to spend money they could get Santana. Their rotation would be sick in a couple of years…...well at-least the top three: Santana,Kazmir,Price
Just two tips. Andy Pettitte making a decision to return or not can tip the scales on what Brian Cashman does to the betterment of the starting rotation and Brian Cashman never tips his hand as to what moves he plans to make. The media and fans are the last to know what is on his mind. Everything else is pure speculation. Rumor mills are what they are.
Anyone have any idea what the O’s are asking for Bedard?
Chase Wright straight up.
I doubt they would trade him within the division, and to us no less.
The Rays have the prospects but not the money to actually pay him. And he has a full no trade clause. Name the last guy who wanted to play in Tampa. The Mets don’t have the pitching prospects to get Santana done. They’d be better off moving on Haren.
hmmm do you really need to copy and paste what everyone else writes as you comment on it?
Haven’t we all watched Cashman enough to know he won’t panic and he won’t be bullied and he won’t mortgage the future? This isn’t 1985 here.
The Bronx Stop makes a valid point in getting aggressive with Dan Haren. He knows the AL and allows the farm system to bide some more development time with the next wave of pitchers such as Horne, Marquez, Robertson, et al.
The farm system has some pitchers stuck in neutral with DeSalvo, Wright, Igawa, Clippard, and Karstens that can be part of a package.
Pete should start a new feature here. A poll voting on the dumbest trade proposals daily. It would be a heated competition everyday with all the dummies.
please don’t trade hughes. i just bought his jersey.
“The farm system has some pitchers stuck in neutral with DeSalvo, Wright, Igawa, Clippard, and Karstens that can be part of a package.”
What GM in their right mind would trade a player like Dan Haren for that??
Please. Enlighten us.
I love how people think we can get Santana for the Clippards of the world. It’s hilarious.
Come on Terry. put those pitchers into a deal for Haren. DeSalvo/Clippard/Igawa for him?? Maybe throw in Giambi right???
“hmmm do you really need to copy and paste what everyone else writes as you comment on it?”
no
but seriously, how else would people know what you are addressing? the comments here come so quickly that while you are typing a response, there can be 4-5 comments in between the post you are responding to.
i am open for suggestions, but what works best in this format?
Austin Jackson. Can the kid play at Double A before we annoint him an all star and our starting CF?
Can you blame Minny in asking for Hughes?
I find it amusing that people are appalled at the Twins asking for Cano or asking for Hughes. I am not saying we should trade then, but what do you expect the Twins to open with. “We’ll give you Santana and you give us whatever you think is fair.”
With the way some of these boobs think I wouldn’t be surprised if they seriously thought Chase Wright, DeSalvo, and Clippard could get Santana.
The Yanks need an ace. Johan Santana is that ace. What to give up? Who the heck knows. We aren’t in those meetings. We don’t know w