Little Stein: Preliminary talks for Santana on
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- November
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The Yankees are talking to the Twins about Johan Santana. Team spokesman and senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner confirmed it tonight.
“I don’t want to get into that at this point, as far as what they want, what we’re willing to give and all that,” he told the AP. “It’s preliminary right now.”
So the Twins will consider making a trade?
“Oh, yeah,” Hank said.
Steinbrenner also said that Brian Cashman (remember him?) is trying to improve the bullpen.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Knew you would be on that Pete. That AP report hit fox and ESPN just a few minutes ago.
Good news…just a little nervous about what they might want as a trade.
Finally, someone mentions the bullpen…
Having Johan in pinstripes would be amazing (heavenly)!
Hank loves to squawk, doesn’t he?
I hope. . . . i hope i won’t be upset with the trade (if they make one) even the greatest thing in the world is not always worth everything. hope Andy comes back .
Not sure what this means if anything. I am sure that if they called Omar Minya he would say the same thing that they have begun talking to the Twins as are the Dodgers, Sox and probably 4 or so other teams.
after all the posts today, i am 50/50 on this trade. maybe i have been drinking the yankee cool-aid for too long thinking that our prospects have such a great upside. but johan will not come cheap at all.
between the prospects and the money we’d have to pay, it is tough for me to swallow right now.
but i guess it isn’t my money, and we do need an ace…
i’m basically arguing with myself right now. probably why i’m 50/50 on the whole thing
Why Hank is belittled with the derisive nickname “Little Stein” on this blog is beyond my comprehension. Hank isn’t some spoiled rich college kid who’s taking over his father’s team because he’s bored. He’s been involved with the team — and the team’s decisions — for many years. He is a baseball man. As much or more than most owners/presidents. This suggestion that he’s playing his father like an acting role is just dumb, and Yankee fans should be happy he’s taking over his father’s position; he allows Cash to do his job and he brings a logical, cogent plan to the table. Why not try a little more respect? But then again, that’s not your style, Pete.
With Chamberlain going into the starting rotation doesn’t that leave a bullpen with lots of questions last year even more questionable right now?
I’d like Santana, but I hope it won’t be too expensive. Obviously you have to give up something, but I’d make Cano and Joba untouchables right off the bat, and I’d be extremely, extremely reluctant to include Hughes as well (which might bring the trade to a screaching halt). I’d rather keep Kennedy but if Cano, Hughes, and Joba stay, that’s probably a virtual impossibility, so I’d be alright with him going in a Santana deal. Melky’s probably a necessity since the Twins need a cheap centerfielder, and I imagine at least one out of Jackson and Tabata are necessary too. Plus, probably an Alan Horne or someone like that. Kennedy, Melky, Jackson or Tabata, and Horne is a deal I’d make, although someone else may offer better.
So I’m writing a masters thesis on the nonfiction novel. Not baseball related.
I just included a sports analogy.
I rule.
i agree with ray. the yanks need big-time bullpen changes
Don’t get to excited….I’m sure there are 18 other teams in peliminary talks with the twins as well.
Andrea….we already knew that you rule! Good luck with the thesis.
Look, if it doesn’t harm their bargaining position, I have no quibble with Hank’s effort to make the Yankees more transparent.
However, I’m not sure it’s entirely innocuous. What if the disclosure causes other teams to increase their offer just to raise the ante for the Yankees. I’d prefer Hank lie to the public to conceal the Yankees motives and then soldier on behind the scenes.
Andrea, I know you’ll mention Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood and Mailer’s The Executioner’s Song but don’t overlook Michael Herr’s Dispatches.
I am also 50/50 on this trade but not because of money since I am sure the NYY have qualified accountants that know what they can’t and could afford. I am more worried about what we will be giving up in talent. As to the bullpen question I am more and more convinced that the solution will be coming from inside the Yankee farm system rather then the FA market. Ask me who I have more confidence in when looking at the available free agents as compared to our prospects (Ohlendorf, Veras, Melancon) and the prospects win.
see, go get em’ Hank, see…
Hank Rules!!!
Kennedy, Horne, Melky, and Tabata for Santana please!!!
Hughes sort of started the renaissance of the Yankees farm system when he was drafted in 2004, I’d be sad to see the poster boy for the whole redevelopment process go.
ray-
Just out of curiosity, do you have Yankee-envy? I know you are a Sox fan, a nice one at that, but are you leaking insider info to Theo?
I will be very upset if Phil, Joba, Cano or Action is traded.
eric
November 26th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Hughes sort of started the renaissance of the Yankees farm system when he was drafted in 2004, I’d be sad to see the poster boy for the whole redevelopment process go.
Completely agree. I was thinking the same sad thing earlier.
Hank needs to learn when the right time to speak is. It isn’t when he wants to hear his own voice, again.
Sometimes, speaking can be bad for the team. In this case, it is. Now the scrutiny is going to be on. Everyone will be asking everyday what the negotiations are doing, and it’s going to create a huge issue for the team. He should really talk to Zillo about talking to the media, because he’s talking way too much, and I bet its a wake-up call for everyone else… now they know the Yanks are in it, which maybe they won’t know otherwise.
I appreciate him talking publically, and keeping the fans in the loop, but it’s not always a good thing. Besides, he shouldn’t be the one doing this; it should be Cashman running the show.
I’ve heard that we are looking into bringing back Bob Wickman… no joke.
Jay:
Dry those tears. Steinbrenner was called “Big Stein” on Seinfeld. So clearly Hank is “Little Stein.” If an innocent pop-culture reference is going to make you so upset, then this isn’t the blog for you.
Hal Steinbrenner is known as “Prince Hal” around the front office. Is that offensive to you, too?
Meanwhile, you wrote:
“He’s been involved with the team — and the team’s decisions — for many years. He is a baseball man. As much or more than most owners/presidents.”
OK, well that is just not true. As late as 2006 he had no title with the team whatsoever. He had a job briefly in the 1980s and quickly determined he had no desire to work for his father and went and managed the family stables. From roughly 1990-2006 he had almost nothing to do with the team by his own choice. He has said as much in interviews. In fact, George tried to make him managing partner when he was suspended and Hank refused. Refused. So your theory is simply nonsense.
As of August, I couldn’t find one player who had ever met him.
I like Hank, he’s good for the writers. He seems to be doing a nice job the last few weeks. But he’s hardly some experienced baseball man.
As for most team owners/presidents, I can name 20 off the top of my head who have been involved in the game longer than he has been. Lucchino, MacPhail, Wilpons, Ilitch, Reinsdorf, Moores, etc.
That’s no crime. Hank and Hal had to get involved when Swindal was ousted and they have.
Little Stein likes to talk and good for him. Chatty executives make for good stories
I would trade Hughes, Melky, and Kennedy for Santana…we need an ace…as long as we can sign Santana to a large extension, can’t take the chance of him being a free agent…with Santana, Pettite would come back, then Wang perfect as a #3, Joba #4 or to the bullpen, and Mussina and others for # 5..then sign Andruw Jones to play CF….we would need a CF and Jones is great defensively and will rebound offensively…..I like that alot…we would finally have our ace and still keep Jaba….
Santana would certainly upgrade the pitching to a whole new level and put the Yankees into a prime position to take on the Red Sox pitching rotation. Yankees need pitching to contend as we have seen offense alone will not do it.
If the bullpen get upgraded then the Yankees have put together a unstoppable team. There needs to be reliable guys that get outs in the bullpen. You need the 8th, and 9th inning guys to keep you in the game. As the bullpen stands now, it’s sub par and a risk.
If Hughes is traded for Santana then so be it. Santana is proven and a winner. Hughes still has to prove himself and really still unknown. He doesn’t have enough major league innings under his belt to prove his worth. Not that he is a bad pitcher, just not at the caliber of Santana so getting a Santana for Hughes would be kinda nice. Santana is only 28.
Throw in Melky and Tabata and be happy that’s all he cost.
Yankees have enough pitching down in the minors to make up for the lose of Hughes.
I can’t wait to see Santana in pinstipes.
The final year of the old Yankee Stadium is coming up and Hank Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman will go the gamut to give Joe Girardi the necessary needs to see the Stadium go out in grand style. Take it to the bank.
Please – guys this is a blog. PA is not disrespecting HS and has not really said anything negative about him at all. Cut him some slack.
How serious can a post be when an owner says, “Oh yeah” when asked if a team is willing to trade the best pitcher in the game?
He clearly is not very experienced in terms of dealing with the press.
Having said that, he seems to be allowing Cash to do the right thing and is taking some of the heat off of Cash in terms of talking to the press. From a Yankee performance standpoint, talking to the press is not an optimal use of Cash’s time.
So lighten up. Hank is always good for a great quote but he is hardly an experienced owner at this point.
The Kennedy, Horne, Melky and Tabata deal is the one that makes the most sense for the Yankees and IMO is not a bogus deal. Yes there may be a ton of other teams with as good, if not better offers, but the one thing that everyone seems to forget is that he has full no trade clause, therefore he can dictate where he goes. As such, if he wants to go to the Yankees, or anyone else, all he has to do is let Minny know that and they will make the best offer they can with that team or not get anything but draft picks when leaves via FA.
I would give up Cano before I give up Hughes, I think he is going to be something special.
Buddy,
I will plead the fifth amendment otherwise my substantial payments from Theo will stop! Seriously, I have not been on all the baseball blogs out there but I have not found one that is nearly as active as this one. Some of the regular contributors on here even have their own blogs like Rebecca and I respect the high level of baseball knowledge exhibited here.
That is all too true… but I think a reasonable trade can be worked out over time…if not you just beg Andy to come back, and if that doesn’t work, go after Bedard or let the kids start, we can get Hughes Joba Kennedy Igawa Karstens and Rasner to fill the 3 spots behind Wang and Moose if it comes to that(and if thats the worst case scenario, I’ll roll the dice with it because of our offense)
“I’ve heard that we are looking into bringing back Bob Wickman… no joke.”
Why not bring back Bob Shirley in that case…
ray: thanks! I think I’m done with it actually. Scary. Just have to see if my advisor and department agree. I’m just having trouble citing ONE thing.
Kill Schill: of course I mentioned In Cold Blood. It would be irresponsible not to. I chose not to include The Executioner’s Song because I wanted to write about very contemporary works: 2000 and after. I used Capote as the starting point as he “invented” the nonfiction novel, and then used a lot of what he said to talk about books published in 2000, 2003 and 2005. Mailer is good stuff though. I’m not sure I’ve heard of that other book though. I’ll have to look into it. The Executioner’s Song is annoying though. I read that on the subway. It’s HUGE. That’s one of those I’d rather it came in two volumes, just so it would have been physically easier to read.
Ok I’m done. Back to baseball!
Getting Santana will only reduce the time available for the young pitchers to develop.
I am looking forward to seeing which of the young guys rise to the top.
unless little Stein can work some magic and not include Hughes or Chamberlain, I feel like we will be giving up way to much.
You are giving up a 21 year old for roughly $400,000 a year, who you control for the next 5 years I believe. On top of that, you would have to include Melky and possibly Austin Jackson. All of a sudden this trade is costing the Yankees $50 mill a year. $20 for Johan, probably about $15 for a CF + luxury tax. So instead of having 3 players all under 23 for a combined $1.2 million or so, you are breaking the bank (and your future) for one player.. NOT WORTH IT
should be untouchable.
I’d give up anyone else on the Yankees and in the farm over Hughes.
I hope they stand pat. It’s going to take way too much to bring Santana in terms of talent and money.
ARod’s contract was insane enough, the Yanks don’t need to add Santana’s to it as well. Let the Mets gut their farm for him.
just feel like locking up Santana into a long term deal means we would have $55MM locked into two players (one who only plays one of five days) and then have signed a bunch of old guys (Posada & Rivera) will have given up our youngsters and then be asking ourselves why we keep losing to the Sox and other teams like that who don’t keep making the same mistake we do. It seems like we get our eye on the ball and a big name comes up and bang we take our eye off it. Keep the mix of young players and Vets get some middle relief and let it rip
BTW menat $55MM/year on 2 players
Problem solved, perhaps they plan to put Santana in the bullpen.
If we have to give up more than one of the following: Hughes, Kennedy, Cano, than its not worth it. and i don’t really like the idea of trading Cano or hughes…I’d part with kennedy if it got me Johan even though he is gonna be just as good as Joba and Hughes, I don’t wanna sell Ian short but he just makes the most sense…
Pete- I think you’ll agree with me on this, the Yankees are best when they do deals in silence.
Most of the great coup’s the Yankees have made both trade and fa wise were done in near silence.
*Cone in 96 was a deal that didnt play out in the media until the end
*clemens in 99 happened nearly overnight
*justice in ‘00
*arod in 04
*damon in 05
*abreu in 06
All these deals were done under relative silence, with few leaks. One of the great gaffes of the Red Sox new management was letting the A-Rod saga play out over weeks and months in the media.
Personally, I think it would be smarter if Little Stein kept a lower profile when discussing trades. Playing this out in public dosnt end well (see Nomar vs. Millar, December 2003).
I can picture Andruw Jones in CF for the next 6 years, as much as I love Melky…
The Yankees will do just as well to get Whitey Ford signed and take his rightful place on the roster. It would be so easy, a caveman could do it.
I’m not ready to press the panic button on the bullpen just yet, but it definitely needs some strengthening. Mo is locked into the closer role, and I still think Joba sets up in 2008. That leaves the 6th-7th innings for Edwar Ramirez, Jose Veras, Krazy Kyle, Scott Ohlendorf….yes, needs to be strengthened, but not starting from scratch. Gotta add a lefty not named Igawa.
Santana or Haren at the top of the rotation is definitely needed, otherwise this team pounds its way to 94-95 wins next years and bows out in Round One again….
Question for those in the know the otehr night they were running a Yankees Classic from 1995 where O’Niel had 3 or 4 HR. One of the pitchers who gave up 2 HR was Mike Harkey anyone know if this is the same Mike Harkey who is our new BP coach. Also speaking of Wickman he pitched fopr the Yanks that night looked completely differnt mostly as he had hair lol
Vader,
Just to clarify, Santana does not have a full no trade clause. His contract allows him no trade authority for 2007 because he finished in the top three for the cy young award last year. He did not finish in the top three this year, which means the Twins can wait and trade him to any team they choose once the 2008 season starts.
That said, I do think they will trade him this off season since they need a center fielder. Regardless of his no trade, the teams that 1-have the talent to trade, 2-have the finances to sign him to a long term deal, and 3- will be agreeable to Santana waiving his no trade, are limited. Yanks, Red Sox, and maybe the Dodgers or Mets. That’s about it.
Crazy story! http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3128108
He was sitting at a light and now he is seriously injured.
Andruw Jones is a Borass client, he will want too much money, and he just had a horrible year.
For Satana, why not just give the Twins Clippard + $200 Million + 0 top propects?
I don’t like the trades being discussed. If the Yanks give up players who would otherwise be on the team, then their replacements are apt to be both weaker and a lot more expensive. With $25m for Santana and another $10 – $15m to replace, say, Melky and Kennedy, and luxury tax on top, the cost is enormous. It would limit the Yanks ability to sign or trade for other players once the season begins or in subsequent seasons.
I’m still unhappy at the Yanks unwillingness to sign Carlos Beltran. I want them to be in a position to sign the next similar opportunity.
Minnesota only owns him for 1 more year, so they don’t deserve
“Little Stein” is saying the Yanks are involved in prelim discussions… does that mean no one else is or just that no one else is talking about it?
I would have to assume the Twins are talking to all interested parties to get the best deal avilable. It makes no sense that the Twins would talk only to the Yankees.
I miss the stealth Yankees. The ones who made deals before they talked about them.
I think Goose has a good chance of getting in this year!
“Mo is locked into the closer role, and I still think Joba sets up in 2008.”
It has been stated by the Yankees that Joba will be in the starting rotation and that would leave a significant hole in the bullpen.
RSM – no – Santana will have a limited (12 team) no trade for 2008. But if the season starts, you can bet there will be no extension from Santana – so for the most part, teams will be dumping the best prospects for a 1 year (or less) rental with FA around the corner for Santana.
The Angels (if they don’t trade for Miguel Cabrera) also fits the Twins’ needs.
Let’s hope Cash still has that Post-It on his PC or Mac or TI-49 saying Joba, Hughes, and Robbie are untouchable.
I’d still rather build our next dynasty the right way, and the way we did it for 1996-2000. For those not around back then, it wasn’t through trading young talent.
Okay, guys, I have to say something:
The reason the stealth Yankees don’t exist any more is more because of blogs and accessibility of the internet than any other reason.
It would be next to impossible for the Yankees to do a move and us not know or at least have a clue about it ahead of time.
I had no idea David Justice was old enough for Hall of Fame already
Me either! But like I said it appears to be a very weak class, I think this will be the year Goose gets in.
Rebecca
Clemens return was stealth this year. Even A-Rod’s negotiations were kept under wraps for a week before things started leaking. Cash is the master of stealth, Hank is not.
According to SI’s Jon Heyman, the Yankees would have to part with Phil Hughes or at least Ian Kennedy plus Melky Cabrera (the Yankees say Joba Chamberlain and Robinson Cano are off-limits, even for Santana)
The A’s, of course, will try for the Yankees’ vaunted prospects (Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedyl. New York’s next-tier group of pitchers — Alan Horne and Daniel McCutchen — and outfielder Jose Tabata is a more palatable option for the Yankees.
“I had no idea David Justice was old enough for Hall of Fame already”
That 5 years did go quickly, didn’t it?
Improve the pen from within, and don’t re-sign Vizcaino.
A player merely has to be retired for five years.
pat: Good point about Clemens…
Four for Santana is too many for me. I don’t want to have to replace three players aside from the one Santana is replacing.
Eat more garlic
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/.....S-1107-HDR
I’d bet the house this is the only Yankee blog in the world with a Bob Shirley reference in it.
Shant but you have to give up talent to get talent. That would be alot better than Cano Hughes, and Action.
Is what “Little Stien” said tampering?
Yeah– good point Jennifer, who replaces Melky? Aaron Rowand is a bad signing, and I think the same of Andruw Jones. No more albatross contracts to strangle Cashman and future GMS.
Who would be a good stopgap for a year or two until Action Jackson is ready? Can’t have Damon and his noodle arm, or Matsui and his bad knees out in the vast CF at YS…
Maybe Mike Cameron for a year? He’d still miss the first 25 games
Doper…
Any ideas? Bobby Kielty platoon? Trade for a Griffey Jr (what does he have left, one year or so on that contract of his?) or someone with one year left on a backloaded contract?
I love it how you think Santana can be had more quantity as opposed to quality. The Twins can negotiate with 5 teams – IPK, Melky, and Tabata is not going to be enough.
The Twins have a new GM – he can’t get 70 cents on the dollar for the game’s best pitcher… if the Yankees don’t part with Joba, Hughes, or Cano – this deal doesn’t happen.
I’d love to see an IPK/Cabrera + 1 or 2 other lesser prospects… but the Twins have to take a Joba or Hughes or Cano back… remember they have to sell this deal to their fans too
Hey Peter
You really need to hide the ‘Did The Yankees Do The Right Thing By Bringing Alex Rodriguez Back’ Poll off the web site.
We all know how much Alex pays attention to this type of media.
He’s bound to start sulking through the rest of his new contract wondering why we all didn’t want him back.
“..why god …. WHYYYYYyyyyyy?!!“
Shamus:
Rumor has it Jackson will be ready by the end of this season…as long as Melky, Johnny and Bobby stay healthy it shouldn’t be an issue.
“I’d still rather build our next dynasty the right way, and the way we did it for 1996-2000. For those not around back then, it wasn’t through trading young talent.”
this is slightly revisionist.
there were many players obtained through trading young talent, they just happened to all be very good trades for the Yankees:
Cone
Knoblaugh
Tino
Nelson
Irabu
Clemens
Justice
Hank keep quiet for a couple of days, or atleast until this Santana thing is finished. Other teams might not like the fact that when they are dealing with the Yanks Hank tells the media everything. If a Santana deal is possible, with possible I mean not giving up Joba or Cano I think the Yanks will go full force in trying to make it happen. Cash has to try really hard not to give up Hughes but who knows what Hug/Joba/Kenn will be in the future and we already know what Santana is. If I was Cash I would try and start a package with Kennedy, Melky and another lower prospect. If they want Jackson in the deal then they get Kennedy and not Hughes. If they get Hughes then they get lesser prospects in the deal. Boston got Beckett who was 2 year younger and only makes around $10m a year for 3 years for only Ramirez, and a decent pitcher. Yanks have to give Santana $150m so the Twins cant expect the whole farm for him. Outfields are extremely easy to get in as a free agent pitchers are much harder. I would rather give up the outfielders and keep the pitchers.
I guess we don’t have to worry about who would replace Melky than.
Seriously though, how far is Action from hitting the majors?
Miller you making calls tonight? Should I stay online to see the windup?
I guess this is wishful thinking on my part.
I am nervous that the Yankees will deal Hughes or Cano. 
I could deal with Gardner and Melky, or Melky and Jackson but then they get 1 pitcher not both. Horne should not be in a package with another pitcher, that is way too much!! I would think any one of these packages could get Haren from the A’s. If the Twins ask for Hughes then I could call the A’s right away and see if I can get Haren for Kennedy, Melky, and ____ before I trade Hughes. Plus Haren would be $130m cheaper.
I know it’s just 5 years–it doesn’t feel like David Justice has been retired for 5 years.
(swift change of subject back to something that is NOT someone making up stories)
“Boston got Beckett who was 2 year younger and only makes around $10m a year for 3 years for only Ramirez, and a decent pitcher. ”
“only” Ramirez? he is one of the best players in the NL.
also, remember the Sox had to take back Lowell.
that seems funny now, but at the time, Lowell was considered dead weight.
Nah Jennifer go to bed.
If i do find anything out, this blog will be the first to know. However, if i do hear anything it will be full of “grain of salt” warnings.
Okay thanks Miller, although Bozo came back to gloat that he got us. I suspect his parents left the computer unattended.
I agree completely that we should measure what can get us Haren vs what can get us Santana, but while Haren is cheaper, he is not $130 million cheaper.
hmmm, what I was saying is Ramirez is really good but they only gave up 1 big prospect and when people mention Hughes, Cabrera, and then also 2 more prospects that is way too much. Hughes would be the big chip in the deal no reason to add so much more to him.
Miller: Are you an insider I do not know about?
ahhh this is kind of freaking me out….im so torn……
Jennifer – HIP HIP JORGE!
November 26th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
I guess we don’t have to worry about who would replace Melky than.
Seriously though, how far is Action from hitting the majors?
_____________________________________________________
Jackson strts 2008 at Trenton, and if he progresses as fast as he did this year, he should be in Scranton by July and ready for a September call-up. That’s a lot of assumption for a 20 year old, but, this kid is going to be exceptional.
I hope Chuck gets into the HOF!
IPK, Melky, Tabata for Johan.
Then, sign Aaron Rowand for 3-4 years, until Austin Jackson is ready. Then we are solid. A hard nosed guy like Rowand would be perfect for the Yankees, always giving 100% effort.
this is the worst monday night football ever.
Rebecca:
No.
FIELD TURF LOL!!!
I like Rowand.
bphill, thats what people said about Bubba Crosby
I know I am showing my Red Sox roots in saying this but Jim Rice deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Chuck Knoblauch!
Miller:
Ok. =)
“Then, sign Aaron Rowand for 3-4 years, until Austin Jackson is ready. Then we are solid. A hard nosed guy like Rowand would be perfect for the Yankees, always giving 100% effort.”
It isn’t as simple as sitting Rowand down and telling him. Hey kid…here’s a three year deal. Now sign it. We’re the Yankees damnit!
He will probably receive an offer for many more years elsewhere.
Mike R., Haren is signed for $16m for the next 3 years. So even though it is only 3 years guaranteed that you would have him vs 7 with Santana it is still much much cheaper that you would have to owe the player when he is traded. If they can get Haren without giving up Hughes then I would rather have the 2 of them then just Santana.
“hmmm, what I was saying is Ramirez is really good but they only gave up 1 big prospect and when people mention Hughes, Cabrera, and then also 2 more prospects that is way too much.”
gotcha.
ray
November 26th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I know I am showing my Red Sox roots in saying this but Jim Rice deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Chuck Knoblauch!
_____________________________________________________
Nobody seriously thinks Knoblauch will get enough votes (5%) to even stay on the ballot after this year. Right now, Gossage and Blyleven should be the two who get in this year, and Tommy John will get more votes over the next couple of years. John and Jim Kaat will most likely get in through the Veteran’s Committee
“I know I am showing my Red Sox roots in saying this but Jim Rice deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Chuck Knoblauch!”
this is true.
but that doesn’t mean Rice deserves to get in.
Raines was so much better than Rice it’s not even funny, yet i don’t see him getting half the support.
Captain’s Corner. I agree with you completely. If we could get Haren or Santana for the same package of players I take Haren. I just don’t think it’s fair to compare the cost of a 7 contract to one that is only three year. In my opinion the actual savings would probably be around $50 million. Which is still a significant chunk of change.
Was Tim Raines the one that got sick after a while? Or am I confusing him with Tony Gwynn? (No, I don’t know why I confuse the two, I just know that I do)
These Santana talks are going to drag out probably for another 2 or 3 weeks. They just lost Hunter and they have to look good to there fans so they arent going to trade Santana a week later. Also the winter meetings will probably be where alot of the talks happen and then the Twins will wait and wait to get the best package. Also since Santana has a full no trade they will probably ask him if there is a place he definitely wont go to. So they dont waste there time going threw hours of talks with that team.
Rebecca, my folks said something came to me by mail I’m picking up my prize this week
Cashman has got to be turning over in his grave. Isn’t it borderline tampering outing discussions with other clubs? I mean GM’s are prohibited from talking about players on other teams aren’t they? I expect Hank to get fined.
Brandon: I hope you enjoy it! Let me know when you get it!
I will
Rebecca-
Are you thinking of Kirby Puckett?
good of little stein to let us know that the yankees are one of probably 15 teams throwing offers at the twins. just keep your mouth shut until something’s done, hank. so far this offseason, they’ve spent a ton of money treading water to keep the team as “good” as it was last year, and probably lost pettitte. until this team IMPROVES (and, sorry, a rotation including three rookies is not an improvement, as nobody knows how any of the three will pan out), just shut up and do your job.
Buddy–No.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....0(Disease)
It was Raines…Lupus…
(cue the House MD jokes)
that Julio poster still has me pissed off
“Jeff NJ November 26th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Cashman has got to be turning over in his grave.”
Is Cashman dead?
Pedro Abraham Deportes is reporting that “Julio” has been banned from the blog for being a jackass who makes stuff up.
I deleted his comments and reaction to them just so people didn’t get confused.
Sorry for the annoyance. Carry on.
This MNF game is fascinating if only to see what happens and whether anybody can score. I also had no idea that Omar Epps coached the Steelers.
Meanwhile, if you haven’t seen “The Departed” yet, it’s in rotation on HBO now. Do yourself a favor and Tivo it. Fantastic film.
gracias Pedro
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 26th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
Was Tim Raines the one that got sick after a while? Or am I confusing him with Tony Gwynn? (No, I don’t know why I confuse the two, I just know that I do)
_______________________________________________________
Raines had a cocaine addiction during his Expos days, but, he beat that. Late in his career, he developed Lupus, almost died in 1999 and missed a year or so, but, came back to play for a bit, so he could play ball with Tim Jr.
Miller, no, but he sure seems like it lately.
“Raines was so much better than Rice it’s not even funny, yet i don’t see him getting half the support.’
Raines was an excellent player but to say he was so much better than Rice is stretching it some. Rice is the only player in baseball history to get at least 200 hits and 35 home runs 3 consecutive years. During the years 75-86 he had an average of .304, averaged 29 home runs, and 106 RBI’s.
Raines deserves to be in the Hall, but almost certainly won’t make it. He’s just not there in the traditional counting stats. But man, check his stats amyway. So…many…SBs…so few…CSs. At his peak he was just insane, and he made his long career finish a soft landing with that sweet OBP. Love the Rock! Bummer he won’t get in. At least Gossage should make it this year.
Kennedy, Melky + 1 prime lower-A baller for Santana would be highway robbery for the Yanks. Maybe it would be smarter to see them give up more if that’s what it would take, but it’s just too fun watching the kids develop.
How do you keep a Miami Dolphin out of your yard??
Answer>>>>>> Put up a field goal!
I do not understand why Hank would announce to ESPN they are talking to the Twins about Johan, that really doesn’t help Cash in negotiations.
“Raines was an excellent player but to say he was so much better than Rice is stretching it some.”
not really.
career WARP3:
Raines: 123.9
Rice: 83.2
40 wins. not even close.
Rice was an completely ordinary hitter outside of Fenway. he was a poor fielding outfielder with a career OPS+ of
he was grear for a few years, his best seasons were Hall-worthy, but they were far too few.
Jim Rice should be in the HOF.
ray
November 26th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
“Raines was so much better than Rice it’s not even funny, yet i don’t see him getting half the support.’
Raines was an excellent player but to say he was so much better than Rice is stretching it some. Rice is the only player in baseball history to get at least 200 hits and 35 home runs 3 consecutive years. During the years 75-86 he had an average of .304, averaged 29 home runs, and 106 RBI’s.
________________________________________________
Rices numbers aren’t that much different than Rocky Colavito’s (other than average), who had a lot less at bats (about 1600 less).
I’m kind of hoping that it stays scoreless.
You know, the whole history thing.
However, I have to ask you bloggeroos the following:
Should the NFL eliminate the tie?
If they trad some prospects for santana,the Yankees always a “old men”team.They never give the prospects opportunity and time to play.They always sign and trad superstar from another team.They always spent big-money to sign unavailable players.Is it worth?Who care~It’s not my money.
i can’t type.
And pissed off the Boston media along the way.
Question:If yankees sign santana,do you want pettite back?
“hmmm
November 26th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
i can’t type.”
————-
But you can quote like a demon!
damn Dolphin fans really want a QB next season
Sylvia: of course.
sylvia – yes. no matter who the yankees sign or trade for, i want pettitte back.
Jim Kaat should get in the HOF before Rice does. Sorry Ray.
Sylvia:
No question.
In fact, between Pettitte and Santana, I take Pettitte.
This is true, except for 3 years ago when they decided to let Cano and Wang be on the team to stay. Oh yes and then 2 years ago they decided to let Melky play every day. And then this past year they decided to call up the 20 year old Hughes in May although many people here thought it was too soon. They also called up a bunch of other kids from the farm the past few years. Which coincidentally happened around the time when Cash gained full control.
But you’re right, they never let the kids play.
I love the idea that Hank is some kind of bad-ass, new sheriff who’s gonna sweep the streets clean.
So far he’s offered Clueless Joe a retirement lap on our dime, brought back our free agents for approx. $100 M more (combined) than they would have gotten elswhere, emasculated our GM, and exposed himself as a chainsmoking, gasbag who’s word means nothing. And he’s been in charge for little more than a month!
Meanwhile, our chief rivals (the World Series champs) have said nothing and brought back their free agents at discounted prices.
Just wait until the games start and this blustering fool is giving daily opinions on who should be playing first, who should be batting fifth, and the proper pecking order in the bullpen. Girardi’s gonna look back on his time with Loria as the “good old days.”
if this post shows up twice, forgive me. it appears to have gotten lost somewhere:
pedro abraham desportes. well played, sir.
the departed is a great flick, but nicholson’s performance has not aged well for me. he’s great – he’s always great – but he seems so over-the-top in contrast to the other characters, with the exception of whalberg’s, i guess. i’m a huge nicholson fan, but something about his performance just sticks out for me.
and since nobody asked, here are the five best films i’ve seen this year, in order: no country for old men, before the devil knows you’re dead, american gangster, i’m not there, gone baby gone. honorable mentions: zodiac, joe strummer: the future is unwritten
“oh YEAHHHHH” -HS
damon
jeter
abreu
arod
cano
matsui
Jones for defense!!!! his bat w/ 30-40 hrs is a bonus, otherwise, it is gardner or damon with matsui playing the field; shelly to first, giambi to dh
posada
giambi
santana 20 wins
petitte/mussina 17 wins or 14
wang lets say 19 lol
hughes/kennedy 10 – 15 right now hughes probably has more value, but you never know
chamberlain 10 – 12 innings cap
people that say it is too cold for jones in ny are retarded
thats what we are looking at if hank is as excited as he sounds
it’s late; time to dream: crawford and teix in 09!
I’d be pissed if Action & Tabata we’re in this deal, I mean seriously how many over the hill OFs are we going to give crazy contracts to ?
“…if you haven’t seen “The Departed†yet, it’s in rotation on HBO now. Do yourself a favor and Tivo it. Fantastic film.”
Seen it 3 times – great writing…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407887/quotes
‘I don’t want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me.’
jones himself has said he hates playing in cold weather. have you been to new york when it’s cold? andruw will not enjoy it.
on top of that, he’s an arrogant jackass who struggled through the worst offensive season of his career because he patently refused to take any advice whatsoever from his hitting coach.
a real character guy, alright.
This is all true except for a few things.
1. It’s well known that the Mets were willing to offer a 4 year contract to Posada so the Yankees were basically forced to do the same.
2. We don’t actually know what AROD what have gotten from other teams being that AROD started trying to get back on the Yankees before he was even able to negotiate with other teams. Not to mention that if Torii Hunter is worth 18Mil per then AROD who is MUCH better than Hunter has to be worth at least 25MIL a year if not more because of all the hype and attention he will bring when he approaches the HR record.
3. Yes, he emasculated Cashman but he did however allow Cashman to choose the next manager for the Yankees, no?
4. I’ll give you Mariano being slightly overpaid. However the length and total dollar amount of Francisco Cordero is longer than Mo’s contract and I ask you who would you rather have for the next 3 years?
Other than those points everything else you said is completely true.
Buddy Biancalana
November 26th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
“Jim Kaat should get in the HOF before Rice does. Sorry Ray.”
No problem Buddy.
I don’t care who we give up as long as Joba, Hughes, and Cano aren’t involved. Give up Melky then sign Jones for 6 years? Or maybe we don’t even need an outfielder on the days that Santana pitches, he’s so darned good. Anxiety! Just keep the aforementioned 3.
It’s nice to see the Yankees talking and at least kicking the tires on a Santana trade. Even though Hank said that he didn’t want to get into details, I can imagine that he was wanting to say much more. He usually isn’t short on comments.
Meanwhile, I’m really beginning to feel sorry for the Miami Dolphins. Dan Marino, Don Shula, Marks Brothers, where are you???????
Isn’t that the movie where Matt Damon gets away with murder at the end?…Oh yeah, that’s right, now I remember…
Still can’t believe that Matt Damon was People’s Sexiest Man Alive. Gross.
J-Dawg
but Ricky “the bong” Williams is back for the 8th time.
J-Dawg: Well if the Dolphins can’t win even if the other team nearly scores 0….
it doesn’t really bode well.
Buddy- Ricky played a bit tonight, but left in the 2nd quarter with a shoulder injury. How many more chances is he going to get before the NFL says goodbye?
And to answer the question from a while ago, yes I would want Pettitte back no matter what. The door should always be open for Andy to continue pitching as a Yankee.
congrats we have traded the OF for the next 4 – 5 yrs., so no on here is tired of buying mid 30’s OF who can’t man thier position as good as they use to ?
People whining about Hank:
It’s already been leaked that the Twins and Yanks have talked about player packages. Who cares if Hank confirmed that yes, they’re talking? He didn’t say ANYTHING about what players are involved. He just confirmed something that we already knew was happening. Jeez.
People saying “thank god they’re thinking about the pen”:
OBVIOUSLY they’re thinking about the pen. What do you think Cash has been doing since the media stopped bothering him and starting talking to Hank? LOOKING INTO BULLPEN OPTIONS, and starting up the Santana talks.
People talking about Austin Jackson:
Nobody thinks he’s going to be in the majors by the end of this year. He hasn’t even played in AA yet. He’s only 20. If he arrives some time in mid 2009, that will be EARLY. The Yanks have him and Tabata, both of whom are now pretty highly rated and both of whom play CF. That means we can probably afford to give up one of them, and certainly means we can afford to give up Melky.
If Melky goes, DON’T sign Rowand. He gets dirty, so people like him, but he’s not actually a very good hitter. He had one or two good years outside of his contract year playing in a tiny stadium. Also, don’t sign Andruw…unless he’ll take a one year make-good deal. If he’s getting multi-year offers, pass and think about signing Cameron for a year, maybe two if you have to. He plays a great CF as well, provides Hunter-like production, and won’t require a long-term commitment. Alternatively, sign Kielty and let Damon play CF against a lot of righties, with Matsui in LF. Start Kielty against lefties and pinch-hit him liberally.
raymagnetic,
No one’s happier than me that Mo and Jorge are back but the negotiations were handled terribly. Posada wasn’t going to the Mets and no other team even made Mo an offer.
As to Arod, Boras had plenty of time to shop him and found no other team foolish enough to bite at the numbers he wanted. That’s the one and only reason he’s coming back. They bet that Hank’s (and Cash’s) threats were all talk and they were right. We paid him at least $50 M more than any other team would dream of offering.
dont make fun of ricky just because he like to smoke
rebecca- did you really say that between santana and pettitte you would chose pettitte? I love the guy and there is no question he is a proven pitcher for us, but given the choice of only 1 i dont think its much of a debate, you take santana. now on the other hand, i think getting santana will actually increase the likelihood of pettitte coming back because he said he wants to play for a champion and not a contender. Then, assuming we didnt gut the big 3 in getting santana we could put joba back in the bullpen and have a rotation of
Santana
Wang
Hughes/Kennedy (whichever we dont trade, hopefully we keep hughes)
Pettite
Mussina
Joba-8th
Mo-9th
We all know mussina is washed up, but i think the team is better off with moose in the rotation and joba in the pen setting up for the sandman.
any chance we can land santana without giving up melky or cano? probably not, but i am wishful thinking that we can keep the C and C crew together
“congrats we have traded the OF for the next 4 – 5 yrs., so no on here is tired of buying mid 30’s OF who can’t man thier position as good as they use to ?”
Have you not heard of Jose Tabata and Brett Gardner?
CF is the one position where the organization has depth. Gardner could be an everyday guy if he can keep walking at the major league level. Tabata is one of the most highly-touted hitters in the low minors. Jackson’s athleticism finally coalesced into a good baseball player this season. Melky has a great arm and is about a league-average CFer at the tender age of 23. That’s four CFers, all of whom should be in the majors in the next 3-4 years. Two guys who will be about average offensively (Melky, Gardner), one who could be an all-star (Jackson), and one who might be a superstar (Tabata). Tabata and Jackson are probably two years out, Gardner could push his way up with a good year in AAA this season.
Trading away Melky and one of the others is far from the worst thing in the world.
Tabata is a corner outfielder and yes he can hit like crazy. Gardner is not better than Action and Action played AA playoofs and AAA playoffs last season, he debuted in AAA playoffs w/ a double
“Posada wasn’t going to the Mets”
Oh, really? Could the Yankees afford to take that chance?
The Sox could afford to let Lowell hang because a) no one else wanted him for more than three years and b) they have an in-house option for 3B that’s solid (Youkilis). The Yanks had what, Jose Molina?
As for Mo…I don’t really know why they upped the offer from 40 to 45 mil. That seems stupid.
As for ARod…if the Angels were willing to sign an OFer they don’t need for 90 million, they’d have been willing to show Alex the cash. He was a PERFECT fit for them. A huge bat at a position they’ve been trying to fill for years now.
Rebecca- It is bad for them, and the worst may not have even arrived for Miami yet. Maybe they should play Tennessee. I’m a little disgusted with the Titans at this point.
The Yankees would probably only make a commitment to Andruw Jones on two conditions, and both of these are definitely questionable. 1) He agrees to take a one-year deal. Not likely because Scott Boras is his agent, and after all, he did have a monster year powerwise in ‘06 before this year’s disaster. Someone will give him a multi-year deal based on pre-’07 performances alone. Somewhere a team will come along who is completely convinced that this year was a mirage.
2) He sheds some weight. The extra weight has definitely teamed with age to handicap some of his agility in center field. Yeah, he can still make the diving catch, but he doesn’t get to quite as many balls as he used to. It would be a good time for him to shape up and realize that he can add years to his career by getting into better shape.
In the end, the Yankees are not a fit for Andruw Jones, because I just can’t see those two conditions happening. Although I have been wrong numerous times before.
“Tabata is a corner outfielder and yes he can hit like crazy. Gardner is not better than Action and Action played AA playoofs and AAA playoffs last season, he debuted in AAA playoffs w/ a double”
Tabata is not a corner OFer. He’s been playing all over the OF and the organization wants him to play CF. He was playing in the corners because he was on teams with guys that didn’t have the bat to hold down a corner position (like Jackson). But he can play CF.
So, Jackson (I refuse to call him Action) played a few games at AA and a few at AAA. Ok. Has he shown the ability to consistently handle advanced pitching that will actually adjust to his tendencies? The jump to AA is hard, so let’s hold off anointing him the 2009 starting CFer until he’s ACTUALLY mastered at least AA ball.
J-Dawg:
Dude, Miami will probably beat the Jets.
(I don’t even know how I’;m doing with football picks any more…)
Andrea,
How can you say Capote “invented” the non fiction novel and ignore Hemingway?? His book “Green Hill of Africa” was a nonfiction novel documenting a hunting trip on an African safari. Also, “A Moveable Feast” though not a novel, is a “fictional” memoir of his experiences in Paris in the 1920’s.
Nevertheless, best of luck. Will you post anywhere online when it’s done?
Great points. Proud supporter of “whozat being whozat”.
show me a quote where they said that
What’s the fascination with Melky anyway? .327OBP, .391SLG, decent base-stealing threat with 13 SB/18 Attempts. Are those really league avgs stats for a CF?
And do people really believe there’s a Gold Glove in his future? He’s above avg range and gun for an arm, but in CF, that’s more luxury than anything.
Look cross town and you have a player very similar to him: Endy Chavez.
I don’t think Endy Chavez being a big part of any trade package will land Santana.
Here’s a profile on Tabata being a natural CF.
http://ingeorgewetrust.blogspo.....abata.html
Loserbob: Having grown up with the arm of Bernie Williams in CF, I am treasuring every throw Melky makes
Brandon,
A quick search shows that Jackson played 3 games at Trenton this year. No AAA. Or do you have a better source?
He’s only 20, almost 21, and he hit 260 with little power the first half of the year at Charleston. He was great in the 2nd half at Tampa, but Eric Duncan had a great half year too. I think it’s too soon to call Jackson untouchable. If Jackson is the key to getting Santana, The Cash Man and Little Stein have my blessing.
If Gammons is right, and MN’s original request was Hughes, Melky, Jackson, then I’d counter with Kennedy, Melky, Jackson. I hope Gammons is right, because that’s not a crazy offer, and I think we could talk them off Hughes and still get Santana. Which would be a huge coup.
From the Times:
“show me a quote where they said that”
Go find it yourself. You’ll need a subscription to pinstripesplus.com, I suspect.
He has the speed to play CF at this point. Why would they NOT want him to play CF if he can? Then you can put a lesser fielder with a big bat next to him.
Jackson may be a better CFer, I don’t know. But I know they can both play there at this time.
“If Gammons is right, and MN’s original request was Hughes, Melky, Jackson, then I’d counter with Kennedy, Melky, Jackson. I hope Gammons is right, because that’s not a crazy offer, and I think we could talk them off Hughes and still get Santana. Which would be a huge coup.”
I concur.
Tabata has played some centerfield in the minor leagues but it is not accurate to say that center is the position where he projects to play in the majors.
It’s not really that unusual for guys in the minors to play all over the field, particularly in the outfield.
Tabata already has a somewhat squat build at the age of 18. There are some concerns about his conditioning and how his running will hold up over time (tabata himself discussed in his blog this year how his conditioning could have been better). He is in no way a classic centerfielder.
Just because a guy plays centerfield at age 17 doesn’t mean that is where he is going to play in the majors.
Tabata has decent speed but not the kind that would make him an outstanding centerfielder nor would his range be a plus at that position. He is nowhere in the class of Jackson in terms of range or speed.
Could he play center – perhaps. But that’s not where he is projected to play. You’d be “putting up” with him in center to squeeze in his bat rather than playing him there as a strength.
Center is a premium defensive position and fitting a round peg into a square hole there doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Also, the link above to the blog In George We Trust is very, very old. That was from when Tabata was 17 and where he was going to play more fluid.
Here is a link from Mid-Season of this year by the same fellow who wrote that article from In George We Trust:
Jackson is now listed at a Right Fielder by the same person
http://riveraveblues.com/2007/.....prospects/
I meant to say that Tabata is now projected to play right field by the same person
Also, Jackson did play a few games in AAA this year – it was during the AAA playoffs. He did nicely in Scranton. It was just a cup of coffee sort of thing.
Thank you CB,
after my computer froze on me I was going to send this
Action Jackson
people who forgot he got a quick stint in AAA playoffs and then was sent to AA playoffs
damn links
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.....pid=457706
ML
November 27th, 2007 at 12:42 am
Brandon,
A quick search shows that Jackson played 3 games at Trenton this year. No AAA. Or do you have a better source?
He’s only 20, almost 21, and he hit 260 with little power the first half of the year at Charleston. He was great in the 2nd half at Tampa, but Eric Duncan had a great half year too. I think it’s too soon to call Jackson untouchable. If Jackson is the key to getting Santana, The Cash Man and Little Stein have my blessing.
If Gammons is right, and MN’s original request was Hughes, Melky, Jackson, then I’d counter with Kennedy, Melky, Jackson. I hope Gammons is right, because that’s not a crazy offer, and I think we could talk them off Hughes and still get Santana. Which would be a huge coup.
________________________________________________________
Jackson played in pitcher’s leagues with big ballparks this year. The power is there. Not necessarily 30 homer power, but 20-25, and lots of double-triple power combined with the speed to force defensive mistakes. He played in lower A ball in Charleston, high A ball in Tampa, hit very well in Trenton’s post season games and got into a game in Scranton, doing pretty well. His walks are coming up and his strikeouts are coming down.
Tabata spent all season in Tampa, and with a broken hamate bone in his hand and a cyst in his wrist, still hit over .300 and drove in runs. The power is there. He just needs to be healthy. Go out to the Trenton games and watch him play next season. For a kid that just turned 19, he’s something special. He’s been in leagues about 2 years older on the average as he is.
“show me a quote where they said thatâ€
Go find it yourself. You’ll need a subscription to pinstripesplus.com, I suspect.”"
For a guy who is constantly getting on other posters to produce something to back up their opinions and insulting them when they don’t that’s a very mature response.
I guess some people’s opinions are so insightful that they don’t need to be held to the same standard they hold others to.
I insulted someone ? to my knowledge I insulted one person and that was Julio for the bogus rumor, I didn’t insult anyone after that
“(tabata himself discussed in his blog this year how his conditioning could have been better). He is in no way a classic centerfielder.”
So, he didn’t do his running and his range diminished. Ok. If he does his conditioning, where will he play? If a great hitter can play an adequate CF, and you can find good corner bats, that’s what you do. All I know is the stuff I was reading early this season said that he could play CF, but there were questions about whether he’d be able to play there past his late 20’s. I don’t really see how that could have changed in six months, but maybe it has.
CB basically gave you an update
A) Tabata is a COF (everyone knows this) power hitter no one wants him getting hurt w/ his hitting
B) Action is a CF and played AAA playoffs and hit in the AAA playoffs too
C) The In George we Trust article was old when Tabata was 17 and an upcoming star (still is)
Well, that’s great that Jackson had a cup of coffee in AAA. But this followed a cup of coffee in AA. He still hasn’t played regularly above A ball.
I look forward to seeing what he does in Trenton next year. But until then, I’d happily include him in the right deal.
“For a guy who is constantly getting on other posters to produce something to back up their opinions and insulting them when they don’t that’s a very mature response.”
This isn’t an opinion. It’s a statement about things that I’ve read that I don’t feel like looking up right now.
“I think Austin Jackson is better than Tabata” is an opinion that requires backing up.
“Jose Tabata has played CF, and the Yankees want him to stay there” is just a repetition of scouting reports that I’ve read. And obvious, if you think about it. Why wouldn’t they want corner OF offense out of CF? Last time I read, scouts still thought he could hack it out there, but he was playing in the corners because other guys needed to play CF. Maybe puberty turned him into more of a fireplug. I dunno. Maybe if he does his conditioning, he’ll be an above average CFer again.
Greenberet7,
I will check out Trenton and Scranton games this year (as I did last year), and look forward to seeing Jackson. By the way, the discussion was about him, not Tabata, although it probably applies to him as well.
Basically, I don’t doubt that they are both high ceiling prospects, but I don’t see why they should both be untouchable. Most prospects don’t pan out. In a deal for a Santana, you may have to give up something like Tabata or Jackson, esp. if you want to try to keep Hughes.
Would I trade both? Probably not. Would I trade either for someone not named Santana? Probably not, although Haren or Bedard might make me think. But for Santana, I think you’d have to include one and not think twice.
There is a major difference between someone who “could” play centerfield, someone who “does” play centerfield and someone who will likely continue to play centerfield in the majors.
When evaluating a prospect you have to take into consideration the position he is most likely to play or the position that best fits his skill set, not simply where he “could” play.
With Tabata that is not centerfield. That’s not likely to be his best position or where he will most likely play.
Tabata has not played centerfield much at all over the past two years.
Two years ago in Charleston and last year in Tampa he played alongside Jackson and pretty much played right field.
It’s not likely he going to increase his range substantially as he gets older. The opposite is true – as he matures and fills out he’ll naturally gain weight and his range will likely diminish. He’s only 18 and doesn’t play centerfield on a day in and day out basis. It’s not likely he will.
This is a critical point because if Tabata did project as a strong centerfielder he would be absolutely untouchable. His bat – even if he didn’t hit for much power – would be that much more valuable in center.
As a corner outfielder you do have to be at least somewhat concerned over his power production. I do think that will come given how the FSL zaps power and his youth but he hasn’t shown that yet.
The wrist injury hasn’t helped. But a big issue for Tabata is that he hits an inordinately high percentage of balls on the ground. It seems to be a product of his stroke. Could that change? Sure. But right now he’s hitting a lot of balls on the ground.
ML
November 27th, 2007 at 1:11 am
Well, that’s great that Jackson had a cup of coffee in AAA. But this followed a cup of coffee in AA. He still hasn’t played regularly above A ball.
I look forward to seeing what he does in Trenton next year. But until then, I’d happily include him in the right deal.
______________________________________________________
You wouldn’t if you saw him play.
GB when you saw Austin did you see a young Tori Hunter in him ? I thought that when I saw him in Trenton just curious
Pete, If you’re just catching up with The Departed now, we have to get your out of the house more during the off season. It was based on a film from Asia called Infernal Affairs which is also very good.
Go see No Country For Old Men. It’s one of the best films I’ve seen in I don’t know how long. Brilliant.
I also saw The Mist this weekend and really liked it. It’s the same writer director who did Shawshank and the Green Mile. When he does Stephen King, he does it right.
And if Hughes, Melky and Jackson get us Johan, the deal should be made asap.
I’d hate to lose Melky’s defense, but he’s sort of half a player right now and I think he’s very replaceable. I’m not sure if he ever develops consistent power.
Heck, put Damon in CF for the first 25 games and sign Cameron to be the CF.
Once he comes back off his suspension, the defense will be improved over Melky and he brings a little bit more offensively to CF than Melky does.
Not to mention he knows where to get the good drugs.
He just doesn’t know how to pass the good drug tests.
“I think Austin Jackson is better than Tabata†is an opinion that requires backing up.”
Is this seriously some kind of joke? This is hilarious. How egotistical.
When you have an opinion it doesn’t need to be supported or substantiated. It just is and everyone should just take it at face value and bow down to your wisdom? But when other people have an opinion you disagree with they must back it up because you are dismissive and have such all encompassing baseball knowledge that you can decide what opinions are valid or not?
GreenBeret ?
ML
November 27th, 2007 at 1:17 am
Greenberet7,
I will check out Trenton and Scranton games this year (as I did last year), and look forward to seeing Jackson. By the way, the discussion was about him, not Tabata, although it probably applies to him as well.
Basically, I don’t doubt that they are both high ceiling prospects, but I don’t see why they should both be untouchable. Most prospects don’t pan out. In a deal for a Santana, you may have to give up something like Tabata or Jackson, esp. if you want to try to keep Hughes.
Would I trade both? Probably not. Would I trade either for someone not named Santana? Probably not, although Haren or Bedard might make me think. But for Santana, I think you’d have to include one and not think twice.
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One or the other has to be untouchable. Jackson is a pure center fielder, and, whil Tabata is very good in center, like Cabrera and would do nicely, he’s a right fielder. The power will come. Later in 2008, look for two other really good looking players to come up to Trenton in Mitch Hillingoss and Seth Fortenberry. A way to describe them would be, Hillingoss as a Don Mattingly with speed. He’s a third baseman by trade, but, word is that he’s moving to 2nd base, but, he’d make a good first baseman. Doesn’t have Mattingly’s power, yet, but, at that age and stage, neither did Mattingly. An adjustment will turn his doubles in the gaps to homers in the seats. Fortenberry is a Paul O’Neill clone, with same temperment. He’s a lot faster than O’Neill…both are exceptional base runners. Fortenberry also play a very good center field and is probably best suited for left field, but, with a right fielder’s arm.
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 27th, 2007 at 1:22 am
GB when you saw Austin did you see a young Tori Hunter in him ? I thought that when I saw him in Trenton just curious
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More speed than Hunter and a tad less power. On defense, yeah, Hunter’s a good choice, but, Mathews might be a closer one. This kid can do something NYY hasn’t seen since Winfield. He can jump.
There is no way Santana is a Yankee in the next 2 weeks without giving up Hughes. We all love Kennedy, but there is no way you trade the best pitcher in baseball without getting a potential number 1 in return.
The Twins don’t HAVE to trade Santana during the winter meetings, so taking a package headlined by a “young Mike Mussina” is not gonna happen.
Considering the talent we’d have to give up, and the fact that we would have to ante up the biggest pitcher’s contract ever in the same offseason as the biggest position players contract ever, I only want Santana if it trumps the Sox getting him.
Focus on the bullpen, continue building the team, lets hope Joba fulfills his potential this year. Oh and trade Johan to a non-contender and give Beckett some blisters
GB, I know what you mean if only NY sees just one of his web gems trust me they will all understand why people don’t want to let him go
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 27th, 2007 at 1:39 am
GB, I know what you mean if only NY sees just one of his web gems trust me they will all understand why people don’t want to let him go
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The player Jackson, as an overall package, reminds me of most is a very young, before the knee injuries, Andre Dawson. Dawson’s big power came last, although Jackson is rather lanky, but at age 20, he’s going to fill out. It’s Jackson’s movement that reminds me of Dawson. Graceful. He’ll be a steady 20-25 homer type with 30 steal speed. He may even come up with a freak year 30-30.
I think it said quite a bit that Baseball Prospectus had Jackson rated as the best prospect in the Hawaiian Winter Ball league this year.
Matt Weiters played in Hawaii and he was regarded by many to be the best position player prospect in the entire 2007 draft.
Weiters is a switch hitting catcher who had a very successful career in college and can just rake. For Jackson to be considered a better prospect than him – even if its only in Winter Ball – says something about how impressive Jackson is.
I wish I would have got a chance to see him live but I wasn’t born yet
I just hope we don’t overpay for Santana.
Andre Dawson was just a terrific baseball player. An absolute pleasure to watch. A guy who just did everything well before those knee injuries really crippled him. And he had that one year where he hit 47 homers and won the MVP on a marginal cubs team.
Dawson was a much better player than Tori Hunter.
If Jackson is anything even close to Dawson then the Yankees could have a cornerstone player.
Right now the organization is going to have to make decisions that will define what its going to be like for the next ten years.
One day we may look back and see this offseason as the one that makes the next dynasty or sees it washed away because of bad decisions.
CB
November 27th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Andre Dawson was just a terrific baseball player. An absolute pleasure to watch. A guy who just did everything well before those knee injuries really crippled him. And he had that one year where he hit 47 homers and won the MVP on a marginal cubs team.
Dawson was a much better player than Tori Hunter.
If Jackson is anything even close to Dawson then the Yankees could have a cornerstone player.
Right now the organization is going to have to make decisions that will define what its going to be like for the next ten years.
One day we may look back and see this offseason as the one that makes the next dynasty or sees it washed away because of bad decisions.
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I don’t see Jackson as having Dawson’s power, but he should get close to Hunter’s. The base speed and defense will rival Dawson’s early years, though. Still hard to figure out why Dawson isn’t in the HOF, along with Gossage, Blyleven, Kaat and Tommy John. That’s a baseball disgrace.
I love the way people here complain about the Yankees spending money. It isn’t your money they are spending nor does it matter to you what they spend.
Would you rather the owners just pocket a larger part of the profit, or would you like them to reinvest it in the team? It isn’t your money and means nothing to you. Even if the Yanks had a low payroll, you think seat and food prices would go down at the stadium? The answer is a big NO.
They make back all that money they shell out to superstars in merchandising. The bigger the star, the more money comes in from merchandise as why they can pay ARod 30million and Santana 25 million.
SPEND MONEY LITTLE STEIN! Get that payroll over 300 million just to show other teams how it’s done.
Hilarious that Yankee fans, out of all teams fans, complain about money being spend. This is the Yankee way and always has been.
I have no problem with the money the Yankees spend. I wish they could buy Santana from the Twins instead of giving up our young players. Am I the only one who things Melky shouldn’t go?
Pedro,
you don’t seem to grasp the leverage of Santana’s NTC. If he wants to be a Yankee, that’s what he’ll be, and Hughes is going nowhere.
Dawson isn’t in the Hall of Fame cause he walked about as often as a two month old does.
CB
November 27th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Andre Dawson was just a terrific baseball player. An absolute pleasure to watch. A guy who just did everything well before those knee injuries really crippled him. And he had that one year where he hit 47 homers and won the MVP on a marginal cubs team.
Dawson was a much better player than Tori Hunter.
If Jackson is anything even close to Dawson then the Yankees could have a cornerstone player.
Right now the organization is going to have to make decisions that will define what its going to be like for the next ten years.
One day we may look back and see this offseason as the one that makes the next dynasty or sees it washed away because of bad decisions.
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No doubt about it. You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. Walks are a determining factor in a all around great ballplayer making the HOF. It certainly clinches it for me.
Sorry, CB.. I copied the wrong remark. My error.
Phil
November 27th, 2007 at 2:44 am
Dawson isn’t in the Hall of Fame cause he walked about as often as a two month old does.
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No doubt about it. You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. Walks are a determining factor in a all around great ballplayer making the HOF. It certainly clinches it for me.
To Pete A.
Could you put an editing option in this blog? You know…one that even idiots can use. I’m tired of people thinking I can’t spell or copy correctly.
Obviously Santana is the biggest name out there and the best pitcher in the past 5 years. I was wondering why not one sight or person has made any mention of Eric Bedard. He was having a Cy Young calibre season before the O’s shut him down. He is a Free Agent next year and given the sad state of the Orioles, one would imagine he will search for greener pastures. Do the Yankees have enough talent besides melky, cano, hughes to pry him away from the O’s. He is not as proven as Santana, but he is at worst a #2, and at best one of the top five pitchers in the leage.
Dawson only had a .279 career BAVG and a lowly .323 OBP. That is reason enough to doubt his HOF status.
josB
November 27th, 2007 at 3:08 am
Dawson only had a .279 career BAVG and a lowly .323 OBP. That is reason enough to doubt his HOF status.
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How does that explain CF Ross Youngs, CF Hack Wilson, RF Ralph Kiner, CF Kirby Puckett, CF Larry Doby, 1b-DH Tony Perez, LF Billy Williams. All outfielders with in most cases lower numbers all around, and only a couple who’s only advantage would be in BA. None of them have 300 SB AND home runs….in fact, only 4 others in history, do.
I agree with greg. There will probably be a couple of top-tier free agent starters available next offseason like Sabathia and Bedard, and possibly even Santana if he isn’t traded away. The Yankees should hold off and see just how good Hughes/Joba/Kennedy/Horne are at the major league level for this entire season. Who knows, one of Hughes and Joba might be that ace that we are looking for, and then they don’t need to waste the money and draft pick in chasing any free agents. But if things don’t move fast enough with Joba/Hughes and the Yankees feel like they need a big time pitcher for 2009, then they can dip into next year’s free agent class which is far far superior to this year’s junk pile. If Andy comes back in 2008 then I strongly believe this is the way to go. If Andy does not return then there will obviously be a more immediate hole in the rotation for 2008.
Do you think Bernie Williams is a hall of famer? Most people agree that he is not. Yet his average 162 game season is strikingly similar to Andre Dawson. Dawson played several more years than Bernie and so he accumulated a lot more RBIs.
What I’m saying is not “dawson is not a hall of famer”. But I am trying to say that Dawson is by no means a slam dunk choice for HOF and there is enough evidence in his stats to legitimately think he might not be a HOFer and that the writers are not crazy for not putting him in.
An idea for a trade, perhaps. The Angels may be looking to unload Gary Matthews and his 4 year 40 million dollar contract. NYY takes his contract and sends Giambi and his 1 year 26 million dollar contract to the Angels, and, sending Matt DeSalvo or Alberto Gonzales with him.
josB
November 27th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Do you think Bernie Williams is a hall of famer? Most people agree that he is not. Yet his average 162 game season is strikingly similar to Andre Dawson. Dawson played several more years than Bernie and so he accumulated a lot more RBIs.
What I’m saying is not “dawson is not a hall of famerâ€. But I am trying to say that Dawson is by no means a slam dunk choice for HOF and there is enough evidence in his stats to legitimately think he might not be a HOFer and that the writers are not crazy for not putting him in.
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Actually, yes. Billy Williams belongs, as does Ron Santo and Dawson. I’m not a Cubs fan, but, I grew up close to Chicago and saw them play. Had they been on any decent team, they would all have been 1st or 2nd year inductees. Those were the worst teams anywhere for that length of time, discounting the Mets.
Sorry, JosB.
Thought that said Billy Williams. No, Bernie doesn’t belong. The numbers just miss in the offensive era. Dawson’s speed, defense and power far outclass any that I mentioned.
Also, using career OPS+ (which is an offensive measure adjusted for differences in eras so you can easily compare players in any time) gives you an idea of why those players you mentioned are better HOF choices than Dawson:
Kiner – 149
Wilson – 144
Doby – 136
Williams – 133
Young – 130
Puckett – 124
Perez – 122
Dawson – 119
So Dawson was about 19% better than the average hitter whereas most of those other guys were generally much more dominant than that, especially Wilson and Kiner and Doby and Williams and Young.
Dawson’s strength lies in his longevity. But he was not the dominant player that many other HOF’s are. Like I said before, he is clearly not a slam-dunk chocie for HOF. He might be good enough to get in but it isn’t insane to think that he wasn’t good enough.
heck i’d like to trade giambi too but why would we trade him for an even worse contract for a player who is a lot crappier than him? matthews is not much of an upgrade over melky in cf. play one more year with giambi then dump him. matthews is overpaid like heck and not close to worth the money. giambi’s expiring contract is the better one to have right now.
josB
November 27th, 2007 at 3:46 am
Also, using career OPS+ (which is an offensive measure adjusted for differences in eras so you can easily compare players in any time) gives you an idea of why those players you mentioned are better HOF choices than Dawson:
Kiner – 149
Wilson – 144
Doby – 136
Williams – 133
Young – 130
Puckett – 124
Perez – 122
Dawson – 119
So Dawson was about 19% better than the average hitter whereas most of those other guys were generally much more dominant than that, especially Wilson and Kiner and Doby and Williams and Young.
Dawson’s strength lies in his longevity. But he was not the dominant player that many other HOF’s are. Like I said before, he is clearly not a slam-dunk chocie for HOF. He might be good enough to get in but it isn’t insane to think that he wasn’t good enough.
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There’s only one reason that Larry Doby and Jackie Robinson are in the HOF. Could they have had better careers if given the chance? Sure, but, how much better? Charlie Keller and Tommy Hendrich could have too, without the war. Andre Dawson played parts of 21 years. Roger Maris lost years because of injuries, and could have been in the HOF. Lots of could bes. Like Thurman Munson and Don Mattingly. The HOF punishes players for racking up numbers because they played longe, or have shorter careers. The only place where you get to have it both ways. Look at Tony Perez…20 plus years but makes it. Kirby Puckett has a short career but gets in on a sympathy vote.
I guess what I’m really saying is, it doesn’t matter how great you were, it’s left to writers who have no idea what they are doing. Leave it to the HOF inductees to make those determinations, not writers who usually have an agenda or a grudge.
But, there’s little doubt that Dawson belongs there as much, if not more than a handful of one-trick ponies like Reggie Jackson, Ralph Kiner and Harmon Killabrew who’s only claim to fame was home runs. I won’t even discuss pitchers.
TittoDawg!
November 27th, 2007 at 4:02 am
heck i’d like to trade giambi too but why would we trade him for an even worse contract for a player who is a lot crappier than him? matthews is not much of an upgrade over melky in cf. play one more year with giambi then dump him. matthews is overpaid like heck and not close to worth the money. giambi’s expiring contract is the better one to have right now.
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Because, if NYY has to use Cabrera in a trade, they’ll have a one or two year use for Matthews. Or possibly use him in another deal packaged for a Haren/Harden deal with Oakland along with cash or in a package deal to Baltimore/Chicago.
One more thing about Dawson – his speed is most likely overrated. Sure he stole a lot of bases but he was not very efficient at it. He was successful 74% of the time. It has basically been shown through today’s new statistical analyses that if you aren’t successful about 79% of the time then you are actually costing your team runs. That 5% gap is signficant over a span of 21 years of his career and 423 attempted stolen bases. He was thrown out way too much (109 times) and actually hurt his teams because of his sub par baserunning.
He was around long enough to accumulate 314 stolen bases but the guy was not very good at choosing when to steal bases. Even Alfonso Soriano, a guy who is known to be reckless on the basepaths and stealing bases just to boost his own stats regardless of whether it is a good time to steal or not, has a better career stolen base efficiency than that. 74% is not good at all for someone who claims to be a good baserunner.
So the OPS+ shows that his offensive performance is not as dominant compared to most other HOF’s. His stolen base percentage shows that his stolen bases are just something he accumulated with lots of playing time rather than actual smart baserunning instincts.
Basically what I’m saying is that you are incorrect in saying that “there’s little doubt that Dawson belongs”
I just introduced lots of doubt. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a HOf calier player. But there is certainly reason to doubt it.
Ok well I’m off to bed. Good night, good discussion. And I agree that these writers have no clue about how to pick these things.
josB
November 27th, 2007 at 4:13 am
One more thing about Dawson – his speed is most likely overrated. Sure he stole a lot of bases but he was not very efficient at it. He was successful 74% of the time. It has basically been shown through today’s new statistical analyses that if you aren’t successful about 79% of the time then you are actually costing your team runs. That 5% gap is signficant over a span of 21 years of his career and 423 attempted stolen bases. He was thrown out way too much (109 times) and actually hurt his teams because of his sub par baserunning.
He was around long enough to accumulate 314 stolen bases but the guy was not very good at choosing when to steal bases. Even Alfonso Soriano, a guy who is known to be reckless on the basepaths and stealing bases just to boost his own stats regardless of whether it is a good time to steal or not, has a better career stolen base efficiency than that. 74% is not good at all for someone who claims to be a good baserunner.
So the OPS+ shows that his offensive performance is not as dominant compared to most other HOF’s. His stolen base percentage shows that his stolen bases are just something he accumulated with lots of playing time rather than actual smart baserunning instincts.
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That new 79% rate looks like something that idiot Bill James came up with. Sorry, but, 75% had always been well above average. 80% and above was considered exceptional. Anything below 67% was detrimental.
I don’t except anything a hack like James puts out. His only concern is coming up with idiotic stats like win shares, among others, to sucker fantasy players into buying more books.
Bill James is not a hack. He has been a special advisor to the Red Sox as they have won 2 world titles recently. he is the one that advised Theo to sign David ortiz when he was on the scrapheap from the Twins and nobody had interest. Theo strongly follows his philosophy on drafting and acquiring players that are good at getting on base with walks and not wasting outs on the basepaths like with caught steal attempts. It seems to be working so far. I’m a Boston fan so I know a bit about James and his effect on the team.
Bill James has done wonders for Boston and lots of GM’s are now taking to these new statistics like WARP and VORP and WPA and EQA. That includes Brian Cashman. And these stats of his are not fake or bogus. You simply choose to hold dear to your heart the tools of evaluating baseball players from 1907. I embrace the 2007 tools of evaluating baseball players. Are you the type that thinks a pitchers number of Wins is a great way to judge him as an individual player? Have you even read anything about these newer stats or are you ingorantly bashing them without any research whatsoever? That sounds very Joe Morganesque to me. You should check out firejoemorgan.com and escape from the prison of conventional baseball wisdom and lazy thinking and meaningless cliches that traditionalists are in love with.
Ralphus
November 27th, 2007 at 4:48 am
Bill James is not a hack. He has been a special advisor to the Red Sox as they have won 2 world titles recently. he is the one that advised Theo to sign David ortiz when he was on the scrapheap from the Twins and nobody had interest. Theo strongly follows his philosophy on drafting and acquiring players that are good at getting on base with walks and not wasting outs on the basepaths like with caught steal attempts. It seems to be working so far. I’m a Boston fan so I know a bit about James and his effect on the team.
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I don’t care if Bill James goes around giving every Boston fan oral gratification. He’s still a hack that invents crap to sell books.
I’m really in shock that you’d be a Boston fan after reading this “stuff” you wrote. Let this hack fleece you into buying another 25 dollar book. They are invented numbers to sell books to fantasy freaks.
Ralphus
November 27th, 2007 at 4:54 am
Bill James has done wonders for Boston and lots of GM’s are now taking to these new statistics like WARP and VORP and WPA and EQA. That includes Brian Cashman. And these stats of his are not fake or bogus. You simply choose to hold dear to your heart the tools of evaluating baseball players from 1907. I embrace the 2007 tools of evaluating baseball players. Are you the type that thinks a pitchers number of Wins is a great way to judge him as an individual player? Have you even read anything about these newer stats or are you ingorantly bashing them without any research whatsoever? That sounds very Joe Morganesque to me. You should check out firejoemorgan.com and escape from the prison of conventional baseball wisdom and lazy thinking and meaningless cliches that traditionalists are in love with.
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You can embrace a herd of sheep for all I care. It’s still bogus. Hell, I can invent numbers to say anything I want them too, also…but, they’d still be bogus.
whozat
November 27th, 2007 at 12:52 am
“If Gammons is right, and MN’s original request was Hughes, Melky, Jackson, then I’d counter with Kennedy, Melky, Jackson. I hope Gammons is right, because that’s not a crazy offer, and I think we could talk them off Hughes and still get Santana. Which would be a huge coup.â€
I concur.
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Amen Whozat– its all about negotiations and selling high…
Who is to say the Twins’ renouned scouting dept. isn’t IN LOVE with, say, IPK, Horne, Melky and Gardner?
Or maybe even Kartsen’s value rose with his performance in the World Games?
I seem to think they can make this trade without givng up PH, JC, or RC
I really hope Cashman is still in the loop. Little Stein reminds me of Jack in the Beanstalk, looking to give away the family cow for a handful of beans. Unless cooler heads prevail the farm system could be drained really fast, and we’ll be living through the 1980’s again. Not that I wouldn’t like to see Santana in pinstripes, but let’s not get reckless…
An aside:
Prince Hal is a pretty clever, albeit very literary reference for Little Stein. Shakespeare’s Henry IV portrays Prince Hal as a prodigal son, a regular at the Boar’s Head Tavern, hardly fit to rule until Hal, upset by his father’s disappointment in him, decides it’s time for a change. He takes command of his father’s troops and in an important battle kills the rival Hotspur, previously the more impulsive, battle-ready and trusted insider at court. But who plays the pinstriped Hotspur, the one turned against the King? Randy Levine?
Prince Hal. Hmmm- what about HAL from 2001 Space Odyssey? They had to kill him off at the end.
Hal doing his bes impersination of the Kool-Aid guy?
‘Oooooh Yaaa!’
DEATH TO JULIO !
I WAS UP LOOKING ON DAMN ESPN DEPORTES ALL NIGHT !!!!
I speak/read Espanol about as well as I pitch at the MLB level!
Thanks for banning him, Pete ! What a tool…
Shamus you really didn’t waste that much time looking for it did you?
I think the Twins really want Cano, Hughes and a CF or pitching prospect or both. Hughes is definitely on the trade list since they need an MLB ready starter to fill a rotation spot if they do this deal. But Melky is just not an everyday CF for most teams other than the Yankees. The Twins can’t give up the win shares from Santana and Hunter and live with Castilla at 2d base. Without Santana, they really have to replace Hunter’s offense as well as his defense and get more out of 2d base. And they can’t really wait until a young OF prospect matures in a year or two. It may be no deal without Cano.
Then again, can any team offer a better return than Hughes and Melky, plus an OF prospect AND get Johan to waive his no-trade AND be willing to take on Santana’s extension demands? (Would the Sox give up Ellsbury and Buckholz plus a prospect plus take on that much more salary after last year’s spending spree?) The Yankees’ deep pockets and Santana’s interest in playing in NY might push the deal back to Hughes, Melky and an OF prospect plus a starting pitching prospect not named DeSalvo, Wright or Clippard).
I really hope Cashman is still in the loop. Little Stein reminds me of Jack in the Beanstalk, looking to give away the family cow for a handful of beans. Unless cooler heads prevail the farm system could be drained really fast, and we’ll be living through the 1980’s again. Not that I wouldn’t like to see Santana in pinstripes, but let’s not get reckless…
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What in Steinbrenner’s comments gave you any indication he was going to be reckless? Or drain the farm system? Or that Cashman is not “in the loop?”
All Steinbrenner did was acknowledge what most people already knew – that the Yankees were interested in seeing what the Twins would require in a trade for Santana. No news there. No extraneous information, either. No giving up of the family negotiating secrets.
He has said in the past that the Yankees were not going to mindlessly trade prospects, especially for position players. If they want Santana in earnest, they will have to give up a highly-regarded prospect. That’s no secret, either.
As far as Cashman not being in the loop, well, that’s just a loopy statement. Steinbrenner is quoted because, well, like Pete said, right now at least, he seems to be media-friendly. They are not going to be calling Cashman for information, because, as many here have said, Cashman says an awful lot without saying anything at all. In fact, he’s a master at that.
I really hope Cashman is still in the loop. Little Stein reminds me of Jack in the Beanstalk, looking to give away the family cow for a handful of beans. Unless cooler heads prevail the farm system could be drained really fast, and we’ll be living through the 1980’s again. Not that I wouldn’t like to see Santana in pinstripes, but let’s not get reckless…
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What in Steinbrenner’s comments gave you any indication he was going to be reckless? Or drain the farm system? Or that Cashman is not “in the loop?”
All Steinbrenner did was acknowledge what most people already knew – that the Yankees were interested in seeing what the Twins would require in a trade for Santana. No news there. No extraneous information, either. No giving up of the family negotiating secrets.
He has said in the past that the Yankees were not going to mindlessly trade prospects, especially for position players. If they want Santana in earnest, they will have to give up a highly-regarded prospect. That’s no secret, either.
As far as Cashman not being in the loop, well, that’s just a loopy statement. Steinbrenner is quoted because, well, like Pete said, right now at least, he seems to be media-friendly. They are not going to be calling Cashman for information, because, as many here have said, Cashman says an awful lot without saying anything at all. In fact, he’s a master at that.
Melky, IPK, Horne, and AJax or Tabata should get it done. I can also see a bullpen piece like Patterson, Melancon, or Robertson in the deal somewhere, too.
this by no means empties the farm system, and imagine what a rotation of Johan, Wang, Pettitte (if/when he comes back), Hughes and Joba could do over a 162 game season. Moose is your 6th starter, and you’ve got Karstens, Igawa, Rasner, White, Clippard, amongst others who are more than capable of spot starting should the Yankees have a freak number of injuries at the same time like they did last year.
Then in the next 2 or 3 years, you’ve got guys like Brackman and McCutchen progressing, and you’d like to think BC, Oppenheimer and company will continue to develop the system and fill it back in through the draft as they have been doing the past couple years.
murphydog
November 27th, 2007 at 8:38 am
I think the Twins really want Cano, Hughes and a CF or pitching prospect or both. Hughes is definitely on the trade list since they need an MLB ready starter to fill a rotation spot if they do this deal. But Melky is just not an everyday CF for most teams other than the Yankees. The Twins can’t give up the win shares from Santana and Hunter and live with Castilla at 2d base. Without Santana, they really have to replace Hunter’s offense as well as his defense and get more out of 2d base. And they can’t really wait until a young OF prospect matures in a year or two. It may be no deal without Cano.
Then again, can any team offer a better return than Hughes and Melky, plus an OF prospect AND get Johan to waive his no-trade AND be willing to take on Santana’s extension demands? (Would the Sox give up Ellsbury and Buckholz plus a prospect plus take on that much more salary after last year’s spending spree?) The Yankees’ deep pockets and Santana’s interest in playing in NY might push the deal back to Hughes, Melky and an OF prospect plus a starting pitching prospect not named DeSalvo, Wright or Clippard).
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The Twins need is for a middle infielder or third baseman that can field and hit above .200, not another outfielder. If Hughes goes in this trade, which would be stupid, then that extra player is going to be a lower rated pitcher, like Rasner, DeSalvo or Wright. I’d be hesitant to give up Karstens unless it was a deal breaker. To send Hughes, Cabrera and one of the two top outfielder in the system is crazy. Santan’s not worth that.
when is little Stein going to shut his fat mouth? this is ridiculous. its one thing to insult guys like torre on their way out. i find that unprofessional but its questionable if that actually hurts the team or not.
talking about trades or potential trades in progress is not good business. period. its very concerning that this yahoo is in control.
TurnTwo
November 27th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Melky, IPK, Horne, and AJax or Tabata should get it done. I can also see a bullpen piece like Patterson, Melancon, or Robertson in the deal somewhere, too.
this by no means empties the farm system, and imagine what a rotation of Johan, Wang, Pettitte (if/when he comes back), Hughes and Joba could do over a 162 game season. Moose is your 6th starter, and you’ve got Karstens, Igawa, Rasner, White, Clippard, amongst others who are more than capable of spot starting should the Yankees have a freak number of injuries at the same time like they did last year.
Then in the next 2 or 3 years, you’ve got guys like Brackman and McCutchen progressing, and you’d like to think BC, Oppenheimer and company will continue to develop the system and fill it back in through the draft as they have been doing the past couple years.
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Five players like you just mentioned had better bring back more than Santana. That’s slightly insane to package that much for him.
GB7
“You can embrace a herd of sheep for all I care. It’s still bogus. Hell, I can invent numbers to say anything I want them too, also…but, they’d still be bogus.”
I believe you are right.When it comes to statistics you have to be very careful.Back in college, many,many, years ago we were given a book to read. I recommend it to all people who want to use statistics to quantify baseball.
“How to lie with Statistics”.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb.....4&y=26
Turn Two -
I’d be less inclined to include David Robertson in a Santana deal with the upside he has. I’d offer [both] Clippard and Igawa and if the Twins bite, so much the better. Melancon would be tough to lose also.
Nick – when you are trading for the best pitcher in baseball, you are going to have to give up a few “tough to lose” guys.
the way i’m looking at it, the twins are going to want quality, not quantity.
however, if the quantity actually equals the production of the quality, then you can still make a deal.
melky is in the deal, any way you look at it.
AJax or Tabata, also one of them has to be included.
so now you’re looking at either phil hughes, or two pitchers of similar stature but not as big a name, which would be IPK and Horne, or IPK and Melancon, etc.
4 players in the package; 2 mlb ready players, two high ceiling prospects.
anymore than that, and i agree, there needs to be a low level guy coming back, or maybe even a mlb bullpen piece the twins dont want to pay.
Was Tyler Clippard a highly regarded prospect? I know he had the great game against the Mets but that was about it when he was with the majors. I also know he threw a no-hitter down in AA. But was he ever highly regarded?
Ed FL
November 27th, 2007 at 8:57 am
GB7
“You can embrace a herd of sheep for all I care. It’s still bogus. Hell, I can invent numbers to say anything I want them too, also…but, they’d still be bogus.â€
I believe you are right.When it comes to statistics you have to be very careful.Back in college, many,many, years ago we were given a book to read. I recommend it to all people who want to use statistics to quantify baseball.
“How to lie with Statisticsâ€.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb.....4&y=26
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Given enough numerical numbers, you can prove the moon is made of green cheese. All I care about is a guy’s run production and defense. As Casey Stengel so eloquently stated, “A guy who drives in two runs and lets in three don’t do me no good.”
The object is to score runs and let fewer in. If they want to add a fielding stat, let them keep track of how many runs are scored because of an error and use that as an official stat.Add a column call overall run production and take runs scored added to RBIs subtract the homers and subtract the runs allowed because of the player’s errors.
jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge
November 27th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Was Tyler Clippard a highly regarded prospect? I know he had the great game against the Mets but that was about it when he was with the majors. I also know he threw a no-hitter down in AA. But was he ever highly regarded?
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He’s not really a “stuff” guy, but, overall Clippard’s really just a shade below Kennedy. He just wasn’t ready to be thrown into the ML that soon, and it skook his confidence. He has the chance to be a decent #3 pitcher or a very good #4. He was put into a no win situation.
Sorry about the double post.
I am going to do what Little Stein should do— sit back and smoke some cigarettes.
He needs to shut his mouth.He is killing Cashman’s negotiating style. Now, say the Dodgers or whomever feel the Yankees are on the verge of getting him (and for Hughes, Melky and Jackson–ON THE CHEAP!) they may substantially raise their package offer…
Don’t know who said it in an earlier comment, but with him blabbing, there is no secrecy any more to the NYY. Remember when they got David Justice from Cleveland in 2000? BAM ! Overnight, just like that ! None of this tabloid nonsense and people up on blogs until 4 am talking about trade proposals and what prospects are expendable and which aren’t.
What do we know? Even the biggest stat geeks on this site, unless they are Yankees scouts, have no idea, really, about the talent ceiling on any of these kids….
When the best pitcher in modern day baseball, under the age of 29, is available… you trade whatever kids theyw ant for him…
I say save Cano and Chamberlain, but Hughes, Melkman and Tabata/Jackson? Pull that trigger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This thing will be bandied about in the Minny/ NY newspapers and blog sites for a week, at least….
There is no timetable. They could hold him until the July deadline, or they could resign him after all this posturing, a la Mark Buerhle and the CHW…
Again, was it really a secret that the Yankees would be interested in pursuing Santana? HS did not say who the Yankees would be willing to part with, did he? In fact, he said he would not comment further than that the Yankees are interested. Does anyone think that the other 29 teams did not already know that?
The secret factor comes in pursuing someone not really on the radar. Like if the Yankees get someone not named Santana, but who would qualify as an ace and for fewer prospects — that would have the suprise factor.
Even the Roger Clemens announcement last year was not totally unexpected. The Yankees were definitely interested in him and everyone knew it. The impact part was the timing and method of the announcement. The suspense part was really of Roger’s doing — which team would he choose?
The thing is, the Yankees are always a team that is mentioned when considering trades for name players and deals for free agents, because they have money, and the drive to win championships.
I’ll tell you one thing… Pete, that was the shortest vacation you took in the history of vacations, as pointed out by Alex Belth on BronxBanter today.
Pete Abraham has revolutionized the avid sports fan’s blog. While I like reporters such as Mark Feinsand of the News and Tyler Kepner of the Times, neither of them pay two cents worth of attention to their blog…
Kudos to Belth for acknowledging Pete’s hard work on this site… Too bad more Yankees beat writers and coulmnists can’t take a page from Pete’s book…, er… blog!
We luv ya, Pedro!
Turn Two:
I don’t see the Twins accepting anything less than a potential first tier pitcher in return for Johan. Also, since we are looking to help our bullpen, if those bullpen pieces you mention are any good, why are the Yanks letting any of them go? Unless they are not that good and then why would Minny want them?
GreenBeret7:
I don’t disagree that the cost of a Santana trade is going to be high and I know what Yankee fans don’t want to part with, but you have to look at it from Minny’s point of view.
Minny has no need for a light hitting CF like Melky and Clippard, DeSalvo and Wright are, IMHO, not MLB level. As for Karstens, IMO he’s a long man out of the pen, more valuable to the Yankees this year than to Minny.
If they deal Santana, they would obviously need at the very least a high quality starter to fill a rotation spot (even if the pitcher is not able to replace Santana’s skills). They also have holes at CF and 2d (yes, maybe even 3d). The Yankees are deep in pitching resources and equally deep in OF prospects, and have one of the best 2d basemen (offense plus defense) in the league. Worst of all Minny knows that the Yankees covet a lefty ace for post season success and are scared to death that Boston might swoop in.
So, if I am Minny, I start at Cano and Hughes plus an OF or pitching prospect. Is that really a lot different from what the Twins would seek from Boston, i.e., Ellsbury and Buckholz? Maybe the Yankees can talk Minny down to Melky, Hughes and a high pitching or a high OF prospect since they are prospect rich in pitching and OF, are a destination of choice for Santana and they can afford the second integral phase of this deal, signing Johan to an extension.
Hi folks, hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving.
As much as the prospect of acquiring Santana excites me, I really don’t want to give up Hughes. How do you do that? The guy came up, didn’t even have a full season, was playing after a freak injury, and has a very very high ceiling.
This would be a mistake IMHO. Hughes is 21. Santana 29. And I am not encouraged by the number of HR’s he gave up last season.
I know you have to give up something to get something, but this is just way too much. And I haven’t even touched the issue of Melky. An arm like his has not patrolled center field since longer than I can remember.
I know I will be excited no matter what to see Santana in a Yankees uniform, but I really hope they stand pat and see what the kids can do.
What i think people arent taking into consideration is that with IPK and Horne, you have two top tier prospects. They dont come with the name recognition as a Joba or Hughes, but the results they’ve had parallel Hughes and Joba through the minor leagues. IPK arguably had a better season statistically than Joba did.
i’d have no problem trading Hughes with Melky and AJax, and being done with that, because i did like what i saw, what little it was, from IPK, and while i havent seen Horne, the reports i’ve read of him are very positive… but people here really want to see the Yankees do everything they can to keep Hughes, and all i’m saying is that i think its actually more possible than even i first thought.
BTW, the Yankees don’t have to make this deal, now or ever. Nobody has to make a deal. They can sit back, wait and see, or just walk away after concluding that the price is too high.
The risk is Johan going to Boston or some non-division rival and then seeing him in the playoffs as part of a one-two knockout punch in the ALDS/ALCS. Maybe Cano puts it all together next year and challenges A-Rod for MVP. Maybe Melky gets more consistent at the plate. Maybe Hughes develops faster than expected and Joba and IPK have injury free years of consistent success and 33 starts. But neither Hughes nor Joba will touch 200 innings. Then, let’s see, there’s Mussina, Pettitte (maybe, maybe not) and Wang, who will win 17-19 games if he can remember how to get the ball down in the strike zone. Oh, I almost forgot about Igawa…
The upside to not making the Santana deal comes in four or five years when the Yankees have too much pitching (I know… you can never have too much pitching) and a great outfield, and…. Santana is almost done with his epoch of dominating the Yankees with the team he signed with instead of the Yankees in 2008.
murphydog
November 27th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Turn Two:
I don’t see the Twins accepting anything less than a potential first tier pitcher in return for Johan. Also, since we are looking to help our bullpen, if those bullpen pieces you mention are any good, why are the Yanks letting any of them go? Unless they are not that good and then why would Minny want them?
GreenBeret7:
I don’t disagree that the cost of a Santana trade is going to be high and I know what Yankee fans don’t want to part with, but you have to look at it from Minny’s point of view.
Minny has no need for a light hitting CF like Melky and Clippard, DeSalvo and Wright are, IMHO, not MLB level. As for Karstens, IMO he’s a long man out of the pen, more valuable to the Yankees this year than to Minny.
If they deal Santana, they would obviously need at the very least a high quality starter to fill a rotation spot (even if the pitcher is not able to replace Santana’s skills). They also have holes at CF and 2d (yes, maybe even 3d). The Yankees are deep in pitching resources and equally deep in OF prospects, and have one of the best 2d basemen (offense plus defense) in the league. Worst of all Minny knows that the Yankees covet a lefty ace for post season success and are scared to death that Boston might swoop in.
So, if I am Minny, I start at Cano and Hughes plus an OF or pitching prospect. Is that really a lot different from what the Twins would seek from Boston, i.e., Ellsbury and Buckholz? Maybe the Yankees can talk Minny down to Melky, Hughes and a high pitching or a high OF prospect since they are prospect rich in pitching and OF, are a destination of choice for Santana and they can afford the second integral phase of this deal, signing Johan to an extension.
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I know that the Twins aren’t going to take strictly garbage, but, neither are they going to get Buccholz and Ellsbury plus two other top of the line prospects from Boston. They know and so does New York. Right now, NYY isn’t that deep in outfielders above Tampa level, other than Jackson and Tabata. Their top of the position players will be in Tampa and Charleston in 2008.
If Hughes and Cabrera go in this deal, then all I would send along would be Gonzales, Betemit or Gardner and at most, Marquez. That’s more than they could get from Boston.
Hey Pete any real inside word yet on who they’re dangling for Sir Johan? Bloggers can speculate any mix of the same half dozen names until they’re blue in the face (or wherever) so I think we’re all just itching to know.
One would get grilled guessing which of the 3 kids has the lowest ceiling, but that’s what it’ll probably take, along with either Tabata, Jax or Melky. Maybe it’d take the highest ceiling kid, and maybe even more. But I would hope NY gets more than just Santana in return for any combination of these guys.
Could the Yanks negotiate into the trade a NTC with the Twins that would prevent whichever of the 3 kids we sacrifice from showing up in a Boston uniform down the road?
Trading Wang for Santana, which was once discussed in the blog, would not make sense. That would essentially mean paying $20M more per year for someone who’d win a couple more games than Wang. And rather than being focused strictly on Santana’s past few years’ performance, I would hope both sides realize that he hasn’t improved from his best year (actually he’s in a slight downward trend) and whether in a couple years any of the kids would improve to Santana’s level if not equal it.
Whichever way they go, git-r-done then try to reel Pettitte back to the team for a couple more years.
GreenBeret7:
I concede that all this on my part is just spitballing from an ignorant but interested fan. So, my opinion is pretty worthless overall, but it’s fun to think about something other than work, right?
But for what it’s worth, IMO your last formulation sounds about right: Hughes, Cabrera, and maybe Gardner. Although Gonzalez is an interesting suggestion, he just doesn’t seem to have any pop at the plate and wouldn’t seem to improve the Twins IF over Castilla. Betemit I think the Yankees need to hold onto.
“If Hughes and Cabrera go in this deal, then all I would send along would be Gonzales, Betemit or Gardner and at most, Marquez. That’s more than they could get from Boston.”
This is an interesting point. If you’re the GM you have to look at not only what you think the Twins would accept in trade, but really what the best offer from the rest of the league would be, and merely be slightly better than that. I guess the Twins could end up accepting none of the offers and keeping Santana until maybe mid season 2008 and seeing if they can get a trade going then. But that’s why this is such great game theory fun, you have a handful of teams working in secret and you have to put together a winning package blindly without overpaying (like the Dice-K posting fee auction).
Its interesting to me that, if Gammons info is true, the Twins asked for Hughes, Melky and Jackson for Santana.
Frankly, that’s less than what I thought they would ask for in the deal.
It tells me, the parameters are there for a deal to be made.
It isn’t so much the prospects that will shy teams away from Santana. Its the price tag to sign him.
Very few teams can match the prospects AND the money in order to get Santana. The Yankees can.
One thing folks have to realize re: the Yankees and their prospects. Many of these prospects are going to be packaged in deals. Its how the Yankees do business.
Its how they did it when they won 4 WS from ‘96-2000.
They aren’t going to have an all homegrown team. This is not Tampa Bay.
The key is dealing for the RIGHT guy and knowing which prospects are the guys you keep, regardless of the offer. Santana is definitely the right guy for them to acquire. I wouldn’t trade Chamberlain for him. He would be the only propsect “untouchable” to me in a Santana deal.
If they had Santana this year, despite his “off” year, they probably win the World Series.
Don’t confuse potential with reality. Santana is reality. All of the young pitchers on the Yankees are just in the potential stage of their careers right now.
They could turn out to be the next Santana or Dan Haren. Or, they could be the next Mark Prior and Kerry Wood. You never know for sure.
There are no sure things in baseball. However, a healthy, lefthanded, 29 year old, with 2 Cy Young’s already, is as close as you get to a “sure thing” when it comes to acquiring pitching.
murphydog
November 27th, 2007 at 10:10 am
GreenBeret7:
I concede that all this on my part is just spitballing from an ignorant but interested fan. So, my opinion is pretty worthless overall, but it’s fun to think about something other than work, right?
But for what it’s worth, IMO your last formulation sounds about right: Hughes, Cabrera, and maybe Gardner. Although Gonzalez is an interesting suggestion, he just doesn’t seem to have any pop at the plate and wouldn’t seem to improve the Twins IF over Castilla. Betemit I think the Yankees need to hold onto.
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I’m like you. Just throwing out some things. Gonzales should hit, at least .250 by 2009, but his glove is GG calibre. He can play any of the three infield positions, and, for the most part, the Twins are getting .200 averages from two of those positions. Betemit could allow NYY to send Kennedy over Hughes, and posibly send Gardner, who’s a lot like Brett Butler…explosive speed, exceptional center fielder with an average arm. Cabrera could be a killer at bat, adding a few more homers in an overall smaller park, but, could also lead the league in doubles and have double figure triples on that carpet. His steals will be in the 20’s at least because Gardenhire runs everybody. I know that one of the three top arms has to go and at least Horne or Marquez along with Cabrera and another outfielder. Just trying to see a way to save the Tabata and Jackson.
a little late on this, but they need to adopt their own version of the overtime they use in college football. start at the 50 instead of the 25 or something though. no way should they start in field goal range. get rid of the coin flips. whether the game would end in a tie or not after 5 or 6 overtimes shouldn’t matter then. probably very rare that that would happen.
I haven’t read every comment but don’t the Yankees/Cashman have some leverage considering so few teams can and are willing to pay Santana and give up prospects in the process? The teams I’ve heard that can get Santana don’t seem to be really going after him Dodgers,Angles,Mets and the Red Sox. Most of those teams don’t usually just give up their prospects,either cheap or don’t have the prospects to get it done. To me this just leaves the Yankees that are the lone ones that will do both. If that’s the case than do they really have to give up Hughes?
“Cabrera could be a killer at bat, adding a few more homers in an overall smaller park, but, could also lead the league in doubles and have double figure triples on that carpet. His steals will be in the 20’s at least because Gardenhire runs everybody.”
Hometown fans have a tendency to overvalue their own talent when it comes to trade situations like this, especially the upside of their prospects. I love Melky, but I personally think it’s at least as likely that he stays exactly like he is, which is a servicable defensive CF with an above-average arm, and maybe an impatient .270 or .280 hitter with alot of holes in his swing. He hasn’t shown any indication that he’s likely to lead the league in doubles. All this is why I think it will take Cano to get this trade done, and if the Twins will take Melky… jump at that chance.
Horne,McCutchen,Melky,Jackson should work considering the price to acquire him might be relatively low.
In an item of lesser nature, Joe Kerrigan is no longer the bullpen coach so continuance of Johan Santana having No.57 is there for the taking.
According to at least two sources (one in Minny and one here in NY) the Yankees and Twins may be closer to a deal than is being reported. The deal would be Melky, CM Wang, Jose Tabata and A-Ball prospect 2b Damon Sublett who was amazing this past season. There might be an addition or subtraction here or there, but the important thing is that the three major cogs are essentially set with Wang, Melky and Tabata
I meant Joba instead of Wang. I heard it wrong on the phone. My apologies!
erikp
November 27th, 2007 at 10:43 am
“Cabrera could be a killer at bat, adding a few more homers in an overall smaller park, but, could also lead the league in doubles and have double figure triples on that carpet. His steals will be in the 20’s at least because Gardenhire runs everybody.â€
Hometown fans have a tendency to overvalue their own talent when it comes to trade situations like this, especially the upside of their prospects. I love Melky, but I personally think it’s at least as likely that he stays exactly like he is, which is a servicable defensive CF with an above-average arm, and maybe an impatient .270 or .280 hitter with alot of holes in his swing. He hasn’t shown any indication that he’s likely to lead the league in doubles. All this is why I think it will take Cano to get this trade done, and if the Twins will take Melky… jump at that chance
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He did have over 30 in his first season, with less than 500 at bats, and he hits a lot down the opposite lines, hard…add to it being on carpet. He’s been a .300 hitter in the minors, and don’t forget…he’s still just 24, barely.
CUZ
The yanks are NOT trading JOBA
Cuz
November 27th, 2007 at 11:24 am
According to at least two sources (one in Minny and one here in NY) the Yankees and Twins may be closer to a deal than is being reported. The deal would be Melky, CM Wang, Jose Tabata and A-Ball prospect 2b Damon Sublett who was amazing this past season. There might be an addition or subtraction here or there, but the important thing is that the three major cogs are essentially set with Wang, Melky and Tabata
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Sorry, but, Sublett can’t be traded. He would have to be in pro-baseball at least one year, and adding Wang, along with Tabata won’t happen.
Sublett can be dealt starting on 12/20/07 as a PTBNL.
I actually think I would do that (Melky, Joba, Tabata and whoever this A-guy is). As cool as it was to have Joba throwing 100 and shutting down games, he’s still one guy who is maybe 21 years old and you’re getting one of the best young pitchers in baseball in return. No one knows how Joba will adjust to being a major league starter, there’s still alot of uncertainty. Granted, this is no bargain, but I think its fair.
Kevin
November 27th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Sublett can be dealt starting on 12/20/07 as a PTBNL.
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If his name is released, not a chance. That’s too much to move.
BUT NOT JOBA ?!!?!?!?!?! He’s already, in 22 something innings pitched, a cult hero in NYC!
Why is everyone so down on trading Joba? Yeah, only 22 innings pitched!! His stock is as high as anyone’s could be after such a short period of time, and if you can use that as currency to get Santana, why not? Can someone explain why Joba is untouchable?
I actually think I would do that (Melky, Joba, Tabata and whoever this A-guy is). As cool as it was to have Joba throwing 100 and shutting down games, he’s still one guy who is maybe 21 years old and you’re getting one of the best young pitchers in baseball in return. No one knows how Joba will adjust to being a major league starter, there’s still alot of uncertainty. Granted, this is no bargain, but I think its fair.
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That’s no deal at all. That’s a BS trade.
ansky
November 27th, 2007 at 11:47 am
The copy and paste thing is a total eye sore. I just skip the ones who do that.
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Good for you. It helps when responding and answering questions of posts made 50-100 back.
I would give up Ian Kennedy and Horne than Wang.
LMAO at people needing to complain about anything.
Miller said:
“I just got off the phone with my source. Cuz is telling the truth. Deal to be announced this afternoon most likely. The Yanks would be giving up Wang/Melky/Tabata/Gardner. The Yanks have been granted a 72 hour window to negotiate a contract extension, and want to give Johan a physical.”
I just called my source, he said you were lying. Don’t make stupid comments anymore unless you’re a Sox fan, because then I’ll know you can’t help it.
Miller you serious ? , I’m going to miss Tabata
Good Lord, they’re not trading Joba. Stop the madness.
Melky is going to lead the league in doubles? What league is that?
Not another radio/tv station, message board or internet sports site is reporting this trade.
Miller where the heck are you ?
calm down
no player is untouchable in a trade, especially when we’re talking about a 21 year old kid who has pitched a total of 24 innings in the big leagues versus someone like Johan Santana. As a GM you should be able to attach a price to everything otherwise you’re possibly missing opportunities. I hope Joba turns out to be as good as everyone says, but if I had a nickel for every 21 year old kid who had “the best stuff in the game” I’d have alot of nickels.
Someone posted under Cuz. I never said the deal included Joba. My deal was Wang,Tabata,Melky. This is the real Cuz
your not Miller
Sorry, Chamois, but, I wasn’t complaining about complainers…just laughing at them.
Disreguard this clown iot’s a poster from NYYFANS.COM posing as Miller to screw w/ us, and if he doesn’t leave I’ll post the link he admitted to F’n w/ us
Miller, not sure how that’s a great trade when you give up more than you get back.
I literally do not know who the hell Cuz is, I have never seen him here until today so I can’t believe someone w/ no sample of proof
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffWeaverFan
I have no idea who “Miller” is but he said:
Miller November 27th, 2007 at 11:49 am I just got off the phone with my source. Cuz is telling the truth. Deal to be announced this afternoon most likely. The Yanks would be giving up Wang/Melky/Tabata/Gardner. The Yanks have been granted a 72 hour window to negotiate a contract extension, and want to give Johan a physical.
I was Miller – disregard it.
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Welcome back Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by smckdwn989
mission accomplished… you threw off a number of people around these boards… just think what you did to those that don’t post here!
Sorry – didn’t mean to do it to you guys. I wanted to screw around with the f*cker who screwed around with us initially over there.
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Welcome back Alex
Tim let it go…
IDK why NYYFANS posters would do that, we all want the same thing Santana in a Yankee jersey, but false rumors that’s just messed up
Cuz lost me when he said Joba would be in the deal.
The Yankees aren’t trading Joba Chamberlain.
Would the Twins trade him prior to the Winter Meetings? Seems rather early for them to do it.
However, if the proposed deal is as Miller is saying, that is a steal for the Yankees.
Gardner has no future with the Yankees because of Austin Jackson. Wang is good but, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Hughes gives them the depth (from the right side) to make up for his loss.
A rotation of Santana, Pettitte (I think he will come back), Hughes, Chamberlain, Moose/Kenneday is an upgrade from 2007.
Tabata is going to be a good ML player. However, you have to give up something to get something. For Johan Santana, you give up Tabata.
Melky? Just means Johnny Damon is in CF this year and Austin Jackson is the future CF.
If that deal is announced today, Miller gets his own blog! lol
Johnny Damon in CF is a nightmare… guys will be running all over the place… is Jackson major league ready?
alot of people believe Action is ready, I hope he and Tabata goes nowhere but who the hell knows
Hey guys. Twinkies here.
We have decided to give you Johan Santana in return for nothing. We figured this will be an early Christmas present and the joy of giving is more than enough compensation. Merry Christmas everybody! Enjoy the best pitcher in baseball. Ok bye bye
damn christmas must be troll season
I can deal with Damon in CF, and i suspect he’ll be a different player back in CF full time (this is what he’s always wanted.
His arm stinks, but we dealt with Bernie’s arm for many years in CF just fine. Damon can still track down fly balls, which is most important.
Bringing back Pettitte to me is crucial, if this is the case. Wang was a innings eater, and with 3 young kids potentially in the starting rotation, we’ll need to assure we can get late into games to save the pen.
this move does save IPK and Horne, should Cashman be looking to get another established pitcher to go with Joba and Hughes. IPK and Horne, along with a lower level prospect or two should be enough to get Dan Haren, you think?
i know; now I’m getting greedy.
I’m about to post the link to your bogus comments
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)
November 27th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
alot of people believe Action is ready, I hope he and Tabata goes nowhere but who the hell knows
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Jackson is ready defensively, but not offensively, and rushing him will only hurt.
true GB. very true
Cubs have made Prior available. Hard to believe he’s still only 27. He’d make a nice project if he’s gotten cheap.
you sure are wasting your time here wannabe Miller
No “Grain of Salt” attached so it’s not the real Miller.
Yeah, I think Steibrenner nixed the deal over a million dollar difference.
They’ll be 10 cent subway fares again before Joba is involved in a Santana deal.
With the winter meetings less than one week away, a Santana deal would happen later than sooner. There’s also a 72-hour window to consider in signing him long term.
Brian Cashman is busy at work with bullpen fixing his No. 1 project.
zzzzzzzzzzzz
catching the chat with Neyer:
Brendan (Boston): Why is it news when the Yankees inquire about Santana. What team hasn’t?
Rob Neyer: (12:05 PM ET ) It’s news because the Yankees are one of the few teams that’s likely to offer the sort of long-term contract that would make a trade possible.
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Kevin(CT): If the Yanks offer a Hughes, Cabrera, Ohlendorf and Tabata for Santana would that be enough? What do you think it will take?
Rob Neyer: (12:11 PM ET ) I think that would be more than enough. I’m not smart enough to figure the perfectly balanced/acceptable trade, but if the Yankees offered those four guys the Twins would be foolish if they didn’t jump on it.
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tik tok (oz): You blog about Wallace Mathews’ article in Newsday, taking exception with a couple things he said, but it seems to me his larger point is that the Yankees are chumps for talking to A-Rod after they said they wouldn’t, then negotiating against themselves. Sounds like Wallace got it right. But that’s just the Yankees being the Yankees, right? (Or in other words, the man behind the curtain is a chump?)
Rob Neyer: (12:18 PM ET ) Right. And my point was that how are the Yankees chumps for getting the best player in the majors at a price they can easily afford to pay?
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Doug (NY): Am I naive to think that over the next 6 years, I’d rather have Hughes (for approx $6M) than Santana (for approx $150M)
Rob Neyer: (12:28 PM ET ) It depends on which team you’re running. If you’re running the Yankees and you want to make a *profit* you want Hughes. But if you’re running the Yankees and you want to win (while still making a profit, but a smaller one) you want Santana. It’s important to remember that Hughes, for all his talent, probably won’t win 100 games in the majors, simply because so many bad things can happen to a young pitcher.
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Adam (NYC): It’s hard to believe that Santana will win another 100 games though…wouldn’t Hughes have a better chance of reaching that mark than a 29 year old pitcher past his prime? If the Yanks sign Santana to a 10 year extension, they’d be paying Santana $20 million a year at age 39…at the same time Hughes would be entering the prime of his career. Can you say Kevin Brown? Not a very wise business move to say the least.
Rob Neyer: (12:34 PM ET ) Adam, here’s a chance for some research. Go back and make a list of 20 pitching prospects with Hughes’ credentials. Then make a list of 20 pitchers with Santana’s credentials. I’ll bet you the Santana comps won more games afterward than the Hughes comps did.
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Stephen (East Greenbush, NY): Rob, do you think Jorge Posada is a HOF catcher already? If not, what are his chances with his next four years? Thanks.
Rob Neyer: (12:42 PM ET ) He’s not. Right now he’s Elston Howard. But if he can defy historical trends and play well for another three or four years, he becomes a solid candidate.
wouldn’t it be funny if Prior returns to the yankees
If that’s the real Miller, then put it in the books. He hasn’t been wrong yet.
This will be a great day for the Yankees if that deal is consummated.
If the Yankees can hold on to Joba, Hughes and IPK and get Johan, it’s a steal.
Wang won’t be missed when Johan is striking out over 200 batters next year.
I know Wang’s been very good here for the most part, but he is the reason the Yankees lost vs. Cleveland. He looked like a scared child on the mound vs. Cleveland.
I’d miss Melky’s enthusiasm, but I think we can find a good replacement in CF. I don’t think they go with Damon. I think they get someone athletic to play CF as a stop gap. Don’t be shocked to see a Corey Patterson type if the Yanks don’t go after one of the big remaining CF free agents.
There’s no way this is true. I can’t see the Twins trading Santana before they have a chance to go to the winter meetings and talk to all of the teams who are interested.
Is this true or what??? Miller, where you at?
The more I hear about this trade talk for Santana, the less excited I get.
Man, if they can ship Wang out and hold on to Hughes I wouldn’t mind at all. Then again, since we are apparently “deep” in pitching talent right now, I guess it wouldn’t be the end of the world if we lost Hughes.
G. Love…Wang had a ton of help in losing that series against Cleveland. It’s quite possible that the weather combined with that badly infected and split fingernail had as much to do with Wang’s ineffectiveness as the midges did with Chamberlain.
If we can pull in Pettitte, trade for Santana, and only lose Wang and Melky and some other prospect, I am game.
For the last time the poster that posted today wasn’t Miller
So the Miller that posted today is a phony?
yes
I just don’t buy this blog rumour-Wang, and the 3 OF for Santana. This is a classic, I’ll believe it, when I see it.
The Yankees brass would pull off a heist and Santana would sure as hell approve this trade for the right $$$, but why would the Twins settle so quickly for Wang, an average OF and 1 potential star for argueably the best P in the game.
this miller rumos has to be false no way the twins deal santana that early
It was actually Cuz’s rumor, fueled by an imposter Miller, further fueled by an imposter Cuz, fueled further by a second imposter Miller. The Miller’s win 3-2.
Francesa just said he’s veto a trade to the Sox. If that’s true we might not have to give up Hughes. Yankees should have leverage.
Makes sense … why would a lefty fly ball pitcher want to pitch in Fenway?
“Jax
November 27th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Francesa just said he’s veto a trade to the Sox. If that’s true we might not have to give up Hughes. Yankees should have leverage.”
What did Fatcessa base that on?
When did he say that?? They’ve been talking about Sean Taylor all day.
After the break he came in from the news room and said “we’ll have Heyman on at 4:00. Santana veto a trade to the Red Sox”. So my guess he’s based it on what Heyman thinks or knows?
Oh hey guys. It’s your pal Johan. Yo tengo veinte y ocho anos, y tu?
Anyway, I am packing my bags and coming to New York now. I have been informed that The Twins traded me for Kei Igawa and Hideki Matsui. They explained to me that Japanese revenues will more than compensate for losing me! I was like, “Oy! es muy mal!” and they were all, “Que?” and I was like, “Whatever” and they were all.. “Yea whatever”
You’re the moron stupid. I’m watching on Yes and he just said it after the break. Dog said “the Yankees are going to end up with Santana they might have to give up Hughes but they’re going to get him”.
callate embustero
He did mention Santana but I didn’t hear him say he would veto a trade. He said Heyman at 4 and it sounds like Santana wants to be a Yankee.
You must be getting me confused with someone else because I have NEVER said I wanted to give up Joba for Santana. In fact I’m on board with keeping the kids.
I just found out that WROW here in Albany is no longer carrying the Mike and the Mad Dog show. It is the worst news I’ve gotten in quite some time. My afternoons just got twice as long as usual. And yes, I know M&MD are buffoons, but it passed the time. And no, we aren’t allowed to stream from the WFAN.com website here. UGH.
“AlbanyYankee
November 27th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
I just found out that WROW here in Albany is no longer carrying the Mike and the Mad Dog show. It is the worst news I’ve gotten in quite some time. My afternoons just got twice as long as usual. And yes, I know M&MD are buffoons, but it passed the time. And no, we aren’t allowed to stream from the WFAN.com website here. UGH.”
It’s not on in Albany anymore? When did that happen?
who cares about albany?
I stand by this post and this one only.
According to at least two sources (one in Minny and one here in NY) the Yankees and Twins may be closer to a deal than is being reported. The deal would be Melky, CM Wang, Jose Tabata and A-Ball prospect 2b Damon Sublett who was amazing this past season. There might be an addition or subtraction here or there, but the important thing is that the three major cogs are essentially set with Wang, Melky and Tabata
I just called WROW because it wasn’t on when I turned on the radio (we used to only get it from 2 o’clock on) and the guy at the station said they are no longer broadcasting it and they stopped yesterday. Crushing.
As Stephen A. just stated on 1050 – the Sawx cannot get Santana.. could you imagine having to face beckett and santana in the playoffs?
Cuz, why should we believe you ? I mean I see your persistent but why should we believe you
Stephen A. Smith is a tool, he knows nothing about Yankee baseball
Masterson you post dumb comments all the time. You know that.
Didn’t Damon Sublett just get drafted? And doesn’t that mean he can’t be traded yet?
Wait a second why am I getting attack? Because because I relayed a message from M.Francesa concerning Santana. Who I know not a fan favorite but has more info/sources than these fans on a blog? I don’t know how that equates to being a “moron” or a “child” or a “dumb poster”. Someone else said they heard him mention something about Santana too. It was only mentioned for 5 seconds but that because you and others missed or didn’t hear what he said doesn’t make me a moron,child or dumb poster. LMAO @ some you of you FANATICS.
Just an FYI:
Mike and the Mad-dog said they are going to hold the Santana talks until 4:00. I doubt there is anything new to discuss, but in case anyone is curious it sounds like that’s the time to tune in.
Seriously, let’s stop with the childish attacks and get back to some serious Yanks talk.
“Hank Rules!!!
Kennedy, Horne, Melky, and Tabata for Santana please!!!”
- How’s that Downs Syndrome treatin ya Jimmy?
Didn’t Damon Sublett just get drafted? And doesn’t that mean he can’t be traded yet?
You can trade him but he will have to be player to be named later
“You realize there is no way the Yanks are giving up 4 Grade A prospects like Horne, IPK, Melky, and Tabata, right?”
Can you please name the other 2? Melky and Kennedy are not “Grade A” prospects.
“yup yup
November 27th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Didn’t Damon Sublett just get drafted? And doesn’t that mean he can’t be traded yet?
You can trade him but he will have to be player to be named later”
Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me yup yup.
I personally would consider Kennedy a top prospect but others don’t. Many (mainly scouts) think of him as a number 4 or 5 starter. I really think it’s because he doesn’t throw hard.
“If you don’t think Kennedy is a Grade A prospect you got a chromosome missing. Go read BA and get back to us, chief.
OK, I did.
Baseball America has him projected as a #3 starter. Sorry.
On why Minny would want Wang, Wang could be flipped to another contender that plays on grass (who would love a sinker baller) and thus enable them to score more players for Johan than they possibly can straight up right now.
Right now Johan has the hammer. He can block any trade. It hurts Minny’s leverage and can compromise the package they get in return for him.
If Minny got Wang, they would have a young 19 game winner who couldn’t block any trades to deal and recoup even more prospects and fully rebuild the team.
If Boston isn’t going to trade Ellsbury or Buckholtz and the Yankees aren’t going to trade Joba or Hughes, Wang is a huge bounty for Minny.
You think a contending team that plays on grass wouldn’t give up a couple of good prospects for him?
That’s why I’m not dismissing this talk of CMW being in the deal. If the teams that are in discussions with Minny aren’t going to pony up the big name sure thing prospects, CMW is a huge haul for Minny and it looks, on paper, as they were not fleeced.
“Kennedy is in the top 10 of all minor league prospects. Hitters and pitchers. He completely dominated every level he has been on.”
Bobby, you can have your opinions all you want, but to present them as fact is silly.
First off, he is now a major leaguer, so there is no list of minor leaguers that has Ian Kennedy in the top ten.
Go back to last year and there was no such list that had him that high.
Also, if you are using success at single A and AA levels, you are quite unfamiliar with how players are scouted.
He is a good young pitcher, but he is not projected to be on the level of a Joba, Hughes, or Buchholz.
I think we need to go with a real name registration system for this board. First, there will be no fakery and idiocy trying to figure out who’s who.
Second, using a real name encourages people to be more civil and raises the whole discourse. I have seen this in many, many years of moderating and participating in online discussions and boards.
Peter, can we do a registration/login deal?
You probably want national ID’s too
i know he probably thinks its important to set an early precedent but i think hank is already too vocal with the media.
Quote from Buster Olney:
“Say you are looking for a frontline starting pitcher. An ace. Somebody capable of helping to lead your team into the playoffs.
You could back up your organization’s truck and offer two Grade A prospects and a couple of Grade B prospects and call the Minnesota Twins about Johan Santana. And if you arrange a conditional deal with the Twins, you would have the opportunity to try to convince Santana to waive his no-trade clause. That could cost you merely the largest salary for any pitcher in the history of baseball: six years, $150 million, on top of the $13.25 million he is owed for next season.
Or you could back up the organization’s truck and offer three or four prospects for Oakland’s Dan Haren. No strings attached, no no-trade clause. And here’s the really good news: You would have to pay Haren just $4 million for 2008, $5.5 million for 2009, and he has a $6.75 million option for 2010.”
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I don’t agree with a lot of what Olney says, but this is one thing I’ve felt from the beginning, and he’s put it into words beautifully. Haren is almost as good as Santana, is a legitimate ace, and you’d probably only have to give up half of what you’d give to get Santana, and you’d save $15+ mil a year.
My philosophy has always been to get the second best guy, because the second-best guy always gets swept under the radar while the best guy (who’s just a little better) gets too much limelight, too much money, and too many years.
Dan Haren isn’t the flashier trade, but it’s the smarter one.
Kennedy is still classified as a prospect … Joba is too. Hughes no longer is.