Hall of Fame voting gets underway
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- November
- 27
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The Hall of Fame ballots went out this week to the 575 writers who have been members of the BBWAA for 10 years. The results will be announced on Jan. 8. A player must be on 75 percent of the ballots to gain induction.
Voters can select up to 10 players or nobody at all.
How are players evaluated? Here is what the BBWAA rule says:
Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
The ballot:
Brady Anderson
Harold Baines
Rod Beck
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Shawon Dunston
Chuck Finley
Travis Fryman
Rich “Goose†Gossage
Tommy John
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Robb Nen
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Jose Rijo
Lee Smith
Todd Stottlemyre
Alan Trammell
I have three years left before I am eligible to vote. If I had a vote this season, I would select these players:
Goose Gossage
Jack Morris
Jim Rice
And that’s it. I wavered on Lee Smith. But I plan to be conservative with my selections once I get to vote and I don’t plan on making any statistical plateau such as 500 home runs an “automatic” reason to pick somebody. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that certain players need to wait to get in. You’re either a Hall of Famer or not.
As for Mark McGwire, I’m not sure he would get my vote regardless of his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs. But the rule does mention integrity, sportsmanship and character.
Who would you select?
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on Tuesday, November 27th, 2007 at 9:13 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
i agree Pete, let’s the voter’s feel the same way
Good list. I wonder if Mattingly gets in.
Why not Raines, Pete?
I would go with Goose for certain and possibly Rock Raines and Andre Dawson. Jack Morris was a terrific big-game pitcher with fire in his eyes and icewater in his veins. That ERA is just a bit too high for me, though.
I would vote for:
Goose Gossage
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Bert Blyleven
Gossage IMHO the best reliever in history until Eck (and then Mo, and now third behind only them).
Rice scared the bejeebus outta me as a Yankee fan for over a decade. He’s a Hall of Famer to me.
Andre Dawson was just awesome to watch. If someone who’s a compiler like Eddie Murray or Don Sutton can get in for numbers, why not a guy who to me was better than a Murray?
Tommy John. Look at the man’s career, his number of wins. The fact that he fell like 13 wins short of 300 is the only thing keeping him out? Come on.
Don Mattingly. If Kirby Puckett is in, and Donnie baseball was just as classy a guy and has just about the same career totals as well as more Gold Gloves and an MVP, he should be in. It’s unfair that he’s not.
Bert. See Tommy.
Brady Anderson.
…clearly i wasn’t serious.
My ballot:
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Blyleven is long overdue
If we ignore character/sportsmanship issues, McGwire absolutely deserves HOF status. He was one of the best hitters in baseball for most of his career.
Raines is also more than deserving.
pete -
great calls…all three mentioned were dominant in their playing career.
But Donnie deserves the call and if the sportswriters never vote him in the veterans will…as it relates to the hall of fame definition, they should have a picture of donnie baseball in there.
Gossage, Tommy John (anyone with career-saving surgery named for him just has to be in!), Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. In a perfect world, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.
tim raines. most deserving
Rice is such a jerk… I hope he gets into the HOF, maybe it will cause him to be nicer to 10 year old kids seeking his autograph on Lansdowne Street.
No kidding, last summer, was at a Sox game at Fenway to see Dice-K pitch (they were free tickets, alright!!!) and before the game, Tom Caron (The Sox’ Mike Kay) and Jim Rice were on their little NESN set next to the hot dog stands.
The National Anthem started, and I was still outside getting in my last cigarette. As Tom Caron and Rice got down from the stage and began to cut through the crowd, Rice was knocking KIDS out of the way as they asked for his autograph!
Freaking Tom Caron signed more notebooks than Jim Rice, bitter old bas-tahd !
It looked like Rice was in Pompei, running with the Bulls…. And he’s supposed to be an icon and legend in Red Sox Nation?
Get him in there…cheer him up…
Bert Blyleven should go in along with Goose Gossage Jack Morris and Jim Rice
You don’t deserve a vote after leaving me off of your ballot.
Goose Gossage
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Tim, as a warning, Pete doesn’t like it when commenters pose as real life people.
If Tim Raines was really on Pete’s blog at 9:43 AM EST on a Tuesday to argue with a bunch of blog addicts like us over whether or not Pete should vote for him, I’ll wear a Red Sox hat for the next month!
My votes: Rice, Gossage, Trammel
remember folks, Brady Anderson did hit 50 home runs in a season once….
Oh God – here comes the annual “get Jim Rice in the HOF” media blitz from the Red Sox and their lackeys in the media. Rice was a very mediocre hitter away from Fenway Park. He was never close to getting in before it became fashionable to root for the Red Sox.
It’s funny, he was despised when he played in Boston and now and now the bandwagon brigade of RS fans all of a sudden love the guy.
Raines should get in. Albert Belle deserves to get in before Rice.
Let’s be realistic, EVERYBODY used performance enhancing and pain killing drugs. The only difference is whether they use them systemically like B. Bonds or locally like C. Shilling and which ones they use.
Also vote the guys on what they did, on on how they kiss-up to the press.
I’ll admit I don’t know some of the people of the list so I’m making some what bias choices, if I had more time I would go look up their stats and history.
Andre Dawson
Jack Morris
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Alan Trammell
Also not to take away anything from your job but why does major league baseball let the MEDIA make so many of its big decisions? (I don’t follow the other pro sports as much so I’m not sure how they do it).
Pete,
I think you’re approach is sound, but take a close look at Blyleven and Morris. Blyleven won more games, pitched over 1000 more innings, and had an ERA more than half a run better than Morris. Morris had a few big moments, but Blyleven was 4-1, 2.47 ERA in the few postseason chances he got in a career of terrible teams.
Fred
I would never vote for McGwire, but I think that he always has a chance. Integrity of the game and character are major issues, but Gaylord Perry is still in the Hall of Fame, and it’s not a secret that he used the spitball. I know that it is obviously comparing two totally different things with the spitball and performance-enhancing drugs, but they both jeopardize the integriy of the game. It’s one time when I am glad that I will never have a Hall of Fame vote.
Brady Anderson gets my vote solely based on his long-term relationship with tennis babe Amanda Coetzer.
Seriously, please put Blyleven in, he obviously deserves it: 5th in career K’s and 15th in career RSAA, it’s outrageous that he’s not in…plus he is on the verge of being a broken man.
Good choices. I hope g00se gets in finally… this is his last year isn’t it?
Rice? I guess that makes sense if you only saw him in Fenway…
My list: Goose, Raines, Bert, Tramell.
I would go with Raines, Rice, Dawson, Gossage, and Blyleven. Morris simply didn’t have the overall #s for as long as he pitched in my opinion.
Knoblauch made some hall of fame throwing errors.
Rice, Gossage, Mattingly.
why is brady anderson on this list?
Jim Rice’s career line away from Fenway Park:
.277/.330/.459
Hall of Famer? Please.
Blyleven (long overdue)
Gossage (miles ahead of Sutter)
McGwire (he hit 49 HRs as a skinny rookie)
Trammel (one of the best all-time at his position)
Raines (miles ahead of Brock)
I’m torn on Rice, Dawson and Murphy. Morris is seriously overrated and there’s no rational reason for including him and excluding Blyleven who was clearly a superior pitcher.
Goose, Raines, Rice, & Kaat should get voted in by the HOF committee.
Reading over the comments, I realize I forget Albert Belle. If not for his injury, he likely would have been a shoo-in. Not a nice guy, but his peak was way better than Kirby Puckett’s.
Blyleven
Gossage
Rice
Trammell
IMHO: Morris and Rice are overrated
I am still shocked that Gossage is not in the HOF.
All those situations where he came in with the bases loaded and got the job done. Those were really pressure situations back in the day.
Blyleven, Raines, Gossage
I am of the opinion, that if you have to think about a players qaulifications to enter the HOF, then he does not belong. Jim Rice does not belong. Look at his numbers away from Fenway. Look at his defense. He was a great player for 6 years. Thats it. Very nice career, but not HOF worthy.
Raines was a very good player. But after the first 8 years of his career, he was nothing special for the next 15 or so. He had a good 97 season with the Yanks.
Pitchers are difficult because you have to adjust for parks and run spport, etc. Blyleven is somebody I would do way more research on if I had a vote. But for starters, here is my first evaluation: if he was starting against your team in a pennant race game, did you think “Oh, crap” or “Hey, we have a shot.”
Morris was the former, Blyleven the latter.
Love HoF debates by the way. Seperates the good fans from the phonies.
Look at Jim Rice’s total bases over a span of time. The guy mashed. Being a jerk (which he was and still is) should not keep him out.
Blyleven is much more deserving than Jack Morris.
Goose, I think this might be the year he will get in. Since it is not a very strong class.
Do you think Goose will finally get in?
Bert Blyleven (easily)
Rich “Goose†Gossage (easily. that Sutter got in first is unconscionable)
Mark McGwire (hold your nose and accept that he was a product of his era)
Tim Raines (yes. don’t punish him because he wasn’t Rickey. Rickey be Rickey, and nobody else be close, but the Rock was still a great ballplayer)
Alan Trammell (easily)
Jim Rice shouldn’t be elected, period. I’ll laugh to keep from crying when he gets wrongfully enshrined while leaving Raines out in the cold.
I’m all for Tommy John getting in the Hall. Here’s a guy with 285 career wins and many of those with not-so-good teams and taking the better part of 2 seasons away from his career for a then unheard of surgery since named after him. Since then there’s been many careers saved. Bert Blyleven is another pitcher that never got his due. With nearly 4,000 strikeouts in his career, he’s still on the outside looking in.
Today there’s occasional talk of Schilling one day gaining admission to the Hall. Pfffft !!! . He hasn’t put up anything near the numbers that Tommy John or Bert Blyleven did. A bloody sock and big mouth are his claim to fame.
Pete,
Re your “Oh, crapâ€/“Hey, we have a shot†test, Billy Ripken had a great comment on XM yesterday about Goose Gossage. He basically suggested a similar test and then said anyone who wasn’t voting for Goose had never stood in against him….
Fred
Off topic: Sean Taylor has died after being shot. Thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
On topic: I go for Goose. I’m not familiar enough with Rice or Morris to make an informed decision.
I do not vote for McGwire.
Player A:
CF
4 gold gloves
2336 hits
125 OPS+
Player B:
LF
0 gold gloves
2452 hits
128 OPS+
The OPS+ puts them into a little more context.
none of them
Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cobb, Ryan, Koufax, Feller = HOFers
Gossage, Rice, Morris, Blyleven = very good players
Hey Pete,
Just wondering what your thoughts are on this article. It’s about a trainer who tried to warn the leave in the mid 80’s about steroids. Would that change your votes in any way? What about greenies? It’s been well documented that they have been in the league since WW2. Are steroids and amphetamines in different categories?
Link:http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071127/SPORTS/711270344/1002/SPORTS
What would Rice have hit if he did not play in Fenway (about 40 points lower in BA and 90 in slugging). His failure to hustle on Dwight Evans double in Game 6 may have cost the red sox the 1986 World series although Rice did hystle the majority of the time.
As far as Jack Morris being this great, dominating pitcher, that’s not what Rick Dempsey told Larry King in 1984 (which caused a big stink). Dempsey noted he was off to a hot start but would have a 10 game stretch with a mediocre 4.50 era. Which he did shortly after.
Things which people seem to have forgotten are Raines’s cocaine addiction (he wouldn’t slide into bases in the early 1980s because he had cocaine in his pants) and Morris being ripped as “greedy and disloyal” for leaving Minnesota for Toronto after 1991.
I’m at the point were I don’t really care who gets into Cooperstown. I have my own opinions which like that old-time religion are good enough for me.
What’s hurting Blyleven’s candidacy is the fact that he was only on two All-Star teams in all of the years that he played. He also never won a Cy Young and was only in the top 3 in the voting twice. I am pretty sure that at least some of the voters put a lot of stock into All-Star appearances and how many times a player received Cy Young and MVP votes.
Player A:
CF
4 gold gloves
2336 hits
1067 walks
125 OPS+
Player B:
LF
0 gold gloves
2452 hits
670 walks
128 OPS+
The OPS+ puts them into a little more context.
Player A is Bernie
Player B is Rice
Pete, just look at Bert’s early days in Minny, when his team’s total lack of run support turned what are one of the most dominant four-year spans by a pitcher into virtually .500 ball. Seriously. He was insane. It’s a travesty he isn’t in.
Crime they’re not in:
Bert
Goose
Deserving:
Rock
Trammell
Solid arguments can be made for:
Rice
Belle
Big Mac
Morris just isn’t there. Yes, he had his big story games, but he didn’t do enough for his whole career. And the whole “pitch to the score” thing people like to say about him was debunked handily by the folks at BP.
Jim Rice was far less of a hitter away from Fenway Park. It’s not even close.
Rice had 75 more AB’s on the road than at home. Yet on the road he scored 100 less runs, had 100 less hits, 50 less doubles, 7 less triples, 35 less HR’s, over 100 less RBI, 25 less walks, 40 more strikeouts, batted 50 points less, 40 point lower OBP, 90 point lower SLG, over a 100 point differential in OPS, and his BABIP on the road was 50 points lower. Which means he used the wall to his advantage.
I’m sorry but that’s not hall of fame material to me. Only a jaded NE based sportswriter would even consider Rice to be more hall of fame worthy than Raines when you look at the overall career numbers.
Rice and Goose should be no brainers. Both should have been in a long time ago.
If Jack Morris pitched for the Yankees or Red Sox, his big game heroics would be the subject of numerous books. Best big game pitcher of his era, IMO.
The high ERA? A lot of that is because he pitched deep into games. If he was on a 100 pitch count, like today’s pitchers, and had the benefit of deep bullpens, his ERA would likely be lower.
I would vote Morris in this year.
The rest? I am like Pete. I look at a guy and I say, “is he a HOF or not”? I just don’t see Raines and Blyleven as HOF.
Its more than just stats. For example, Rafael Palmeiro had stats but I don’t see him as a HOF and it has nothing to do with the steroid stuff. I just don’t think he was that type of player.
Donnie? If he played longer, he’s in. Unfortunately, he didn’t play long enough (and was healthy enough) to be a Hall of Famer.
Its a shame but, its why its so tough to get into the Hall of Fame.
Rice’s career numbers away from Fenway Park
.277/.330/.459 – hardly HOF worthy.
He was a fine player, certainly a member of the Hall of Very Good but he’s just not worthy or Cooperstown. If he played for the Brewers or Astros, he’d barely get a mention. He wasn’t a HOFer when he retired (he’s been eligible for what 12 years or so?) and he isn’t one now.
Bert Blyleven is by FAR the most deserving non-Hall of Famer. There has been zero compelling arguments made against his candidacy. I have no connection to him at all, never rooted for the Twins, and his career was 10 years old by the time I was born. But it has bothered me for as long as I’ve been an intense baseball fan that the man hasn’t been elected.
Gossage obviously deserved it more than Sutter, so it only seems fair that he belongs in there.
McGwire certainly deserves to be a Hall of Famer based on his stats, he was an extremely dominant hitter, and considering the era in which he played, he was elite among his peers.
Goose
Jim Rice
Bert Blyleven
Rice is a product of Fenway Park.
Blylevin, Gossage, Dawson, and then Raines, McGuire, Jack Morris the following year.
Lee Smith. Of course.
Goose Gossage. Of course.
Jim Rice. Of course. The guy crushed the ball.
Bert Blyleven. On the fence but probably. His teams often weren’t great so his some of stats might have been even a little better.
Tommy John. On the fence but probably not. He’s one of those ‘almost’ guys who had a real good career but a couple monster years would have put him over the top. I know I’ll get grilled for saying Blyleven but not John, but so be it. It’s my vote, and its just an unofficial one.
Donnie Baseball. On the fence, but probably. Boggs got in (deservedly so) even finishing with a handful of declining years and so should Donnie.
Big Mac. Torn between homers & ‘roids, but probably not just because of the ‘roids. Too bad, I liked him too.
I would absolutely make a push for Pete Rose being voted in as a player but not as a manager. Maybe the price he’d pay might have to be to have the reason for his ban be noted on his plaque.
As a side attraction I always like to pay attention to how many write-in votes that Pete Rose gets. No matter what happens, he will probably get at least one write-in vote from now until Kingdom Come.
Really? Bert Blyleven played 4 more years than Morris and threw over 1000 more innings than Morris, yet his ERA was nearly 60 points lower than Jack Morris’.
Blyleven’s ERA 3.31, Morris’ ERA 3.91. Imagine if Blyleven pitched in this ERA.
Blyleven’s whip 1.198, Morris Whip 1.296. In over 1000 more innings Blyleven had a lower WHIP by far than Morris. And Morris deserves to get in before Blyleven. Really?
Lee Smith – He was the career saves leader when he retired … how does that not qulify for being one of the best in the business? He’s still second, and ahead of Mo … The man deserves a plaque.
Goose – Being a Yankee, I hope he gets in, but he’s definitely on the bubble.
Donnie – He’s one of the most decorated Yankees of all time. He did more in his shortened career than many HOFs did in 20 years … the writers are blinded by certain criteria.
Hawk – Dawson was one of my favorite players to watch and if integrety/sportsmanship can keep you out, he should be in because of it.
Why is no one mentioning Lee Smith? His numbers are very similar to those of Gossage, and his saves and K/9 are superior.
Peter Abraham says Blyleven was the kind of pitcher that hitters would say they have a shot at in a pennant race. So how come Blyleven was 5-1 with a 2.47 era in the post season?
I guess Abraham would tell us that October baseball is not a pennant race.
Morris was 7-4 with a 3.80 era in 92 innings. But that may be a little misleading. If you throw out the last two post seasons with Toronto he is 7-1 with a 2.60 era in 69 innings. In other words, about the same as Blyleven.
Both pitchers strike me as pretty much the same. Blyleven has the support of stat heads, Morris the support of “Old Sportswriter” types who value wins over era. Blyleven spent years with lousy organizations like the Twins and Indians, Morris was on pretty good teams.
Rice, Goose, Blyleven, Dawson, Trammell, Raines.
If Blyleven is elected he will become the only player in the Hall who was born in Europe.
He was born in Amsterdam, right?
Rice and Goose are No debate HOF’ers.
some others are borderline. Morris, Rock Raines and Lee Smith
Big Mack does not like to talk about the past But the BBWAA will consider his past when keeping him out.
BTW I dont think Puckett should be in, but since he is in then Donnie should be in as well.
oh yeah Blyleven is also borderline, and better than Morris.
I forgot about him.
Too bad the ballot is in alphabetical order Mattingly’s name next to the big cheat Macgwire. Tommy John should get in just because the surgery that has saved many a pitchers career was so named after him(just kidding.)
Maybe goose has a chance this ballot,We need more yankees in the Hof.
Davis Justice,Yuk he wasn’t too smart with the way he treated Halle Berry what a low life,I don’t care if he ever makes it in !!!
I’ve been of the opinnion that Clemens came back to NY this season to retire as a yankee. I hope that’s the cap he’ll have on when he’s inducted in the Hall.
“I’ve been of the opinnion that Clemens came back to NY this season to retire as a yankee. I hope that’s the cap he’ll have on when he’s inducted in the Hall.”
I think there were eighteen million other more compelling reasons why Clemens came back to New York this last year.
John
Goose
Rice
McGwire
John is way overdue considering his pioneer status and overall success even though pitching into his dotage cost him some winning %. His three 20-win seasons in the first five years after getting a new arm (in essence) tips the balance.
Blylevin is another Don Sutton and the HoF is not a longevity award, but an honor for excellence. His .534 winning percentage and mere handful of All-Star and CYA top ten finishes over his long career demonstrate that he was nowhere near the type of dominant pitcher who deserves a spot in the Hall, regardless of how many crap teams he pitched for (*cough* ‘84 Indians *cough*). His postseason numbers (5-1, 2.47) are one of the better arguments for his election.
Seriously, if Ron Guidry (.651 winning %, 2 ERA titles, one CYA, six top-10 CYA finishes including four top-5s, 3 20+ win seasons, two AL wins titles, 1.69 World Series ERA) doesn’t get a mention because his career was relatively short, Blyleven (one 20-win season, four top-10 CYA finishes, no wins or ERA titles, no CYA wins, .534 winning %) should not get anyone’s attention. [Kudos only to Keith Olbermann of all people who made the case for Guidry a decade ago]. Guidry had nearly as many shutouts (26) as Morris (28) despite starting 200 fewer games.
Maybe Hawk and Raines in another year. Unfortunately for Raines, folks forget he was more than just a basestealer in his prime.
According to at least two sources (one in Minny and one here in NY) the Yankees and Twins may be closer to a deal than is being reported. The deal would be Melky, CM Wang, Jose Tabata and A-Ball prospect 2b Damon Sublett who was amazing this past season. There might be an addition or subtraction here or there, but the important thing is that the three major cogs are essentially set with Wang, Melky and Tabata.
Jim Rice??
your Sox are showing.
seriously.
you post how the Yankees should stay away from Mike Lowell because of his Home/Away splits, but you would vote for Jim Rice?
Home: .320/.374/.546
Away: .277/.330/.459
for HALF of this guy’s career, he was basically Shea Hillenbrand. away from Fenway Park, he was Shea Hillenbrand.
is that a Hall of Famer?
Rice WAS great. for about 6 seasons.
he has about 6 hall worthy seasons.
sorry, not enough. not even close.
it’s embarrassing that people who make these decisions would vote for Rice over Raines.
i’m surprised by the lack of raines on some of your lists. when i saw a headline that he was going to be on the ballot a few days ago, i thought no-brainer for that one…
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
“Seriously, if Ron Guidry doesn’t get a mention because his career was relatively short…, Blyleven… should not get anyone’s attention.”
HUH?
innings pitched:
Guidry: 2392
Blyleven: 4970
you guys know this information is free, right?
Seeing Jose Rijo’s name reminds me that this will actually be his second time on the ballot. He first appeared on the ballot in 2001 before pitching that year and in 2002. This will likely be the last time that his name ever shows, though. There’s very little chance that he will even get the five percent of the vote necessary to stay on the ballot.
Maybe players on the Hall of Fame ballot should start coming out of retirement just to keep their names on the ballot and to keep open the possibility of getting elected!
I am a huge Yankee fan and just old enough (38) to remember Jim Rice and George Brett killing us in the late 70’s early 80’s
Pete you say he is a jerk but do you know about this:
From wikipedia on Jim Rice…
humanitarian accomplishment occurred during a nationally televised game on August 7, 1982, when he rushed into the stands to help a young boy who had been struck in the head by a line drive off the bat of Dave Stapleton. As other players and spectators watched, Rice left the dugout and entered the stands to help 4-year old Jonathan Keane, who was bleeding heavily. Rice carried the boy onto the field, through the Red Sox dugout and into the clubhouse, where the young boy could be treated by the team’s medical staff. Team doctor Arthur Pappas later said that Rice’s actions may have saved the boy’s life
Clearly Bert Blyleven should be on your list (and clearly posters on this blog agree).
Key stat that I don’t think should be ignored (though it might be on another posting) is he is Number five on the all-time strikeout list (3701) — and when he retired, I think he was number 3 (since passed by the Rocket and the Big Unit).
In fact, when he came into the league (1970) the all-time record was held by Walter Johnson (3509), which Blyleven passed. That’s a big deal. If you said that someone who came into the league in 2007 was going to exceed one of the marquee pitching stats held in 2007 (wins or K’s), you would say he was an automatic HoF’er. The fact that legends like Ryan, Carlton, Clemens and Johnson also pitched in the same era, shouldn’t diminish Blyleven’s accomplishments.
Don’t forget “Most feared hitter” in your argument for Rice…
If he was really feared, wouldn’t he have many more walks, ala Bonds? Even Vladdie will pass Rice in walks in this, his 10th season.
Give me a break!
Sox showing? Who?
Rice had six top-5 MVP finishes in a 12 year span from 1975-1986. That’s dominance against your peer group.
Wade Boggs was a first ballot hall-of-famer with 90%+ of the vote. Unless writers put him in for his defense they better vote for Tim Raines who was every bit Boggs’s equal as an offensive player.
Wade Boggs – 10918 PA, .328/.415/.443, 1513 runs, 1014 RBI
Tim Raines — 10507 PA, .294/.385/.425, 1571 runs, 980 RBI
“BTW I dont think Puckett should be in, but since he is in then Donnie should be in as well.”
why? b/c their stats are similar?
you do realize one played 1B and one played CF?
Pete-
Looks like there is a another knucklehead to be banned from you blog.
[i]He was born in Amsterdam, right?[/i]
Right country, wrong city. Blyleven was born in the Netherlands in the town of Zeist (pop. 60,000). He moved to California when he was a kid, but still–not exactly the cradle of pitchers over there.
Dang! I meant your.
Yeah “Hmmm” it’s free, and in your argument, worth every penny.
Guidry was a bona fide ace. His career started late, unfortunately for him, but your argument is preposterous — it’s not a longevity award.
I read the article about steriods and I think its pointing a bit to sheffield (Some of the marlins on roids) but who else do you think was on roids on that team?
Pete – rthe problem is the comparisons -
Bernie Williams must be HOF if Rice is – Rice must be if X is, Raines must be — exactly why? Mattingly did not have longevity to put up totally defensible numbers but Koufax did ot have longecity — yet they both “dominated” — Oh Koufax got into several WS and did well — now teams get to the WS not becuase of 154 games but cecause of the card and the near total unpredictabiity of a sort series and two long series. Do post seasson stats really count for anyhting — it is more the team than an indiviual player
So Byleven, Morris, and Gossage – without them their teams don’t even have successful seasons
Excpet for a very few players
“Rice had six top-5 MVP finishes in a 12 year span from 1975-1986. That’s dominance against your peer group.”
right, like i said, he had 6 hall of fame level seasons.
is that enough?
his career was too short and he added little defensive value.
i’d love to see the argument for Rice over someone like Will Clark, who fell off the ballot in his first year.
I read the article about steriods and I think its pointing a bit to sheffield (Some of the marlins on roids) but who else do you think was on roids on that team?
———————————————————–
Kevin Brown for one, though he was clearly off them when he pitched for the Yankees.
Pete,
How could you not vote for Raines? I think he’s first ballot.
If you don’t vote for Tim Raines you shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
I would take Pete’s list and add Donnie Baseball. After that, there is nothing that stands out.
Can anyone confirm that Jim Kaat is no longer eligible for the Veterans Committee?
Anyone think Billy Martin is an HOFer?
He’ll probably never make it, but I feel that David Justice is a sure-fire hall of famer. The guy was in the postseason every year of his career. There’s something to be said for that.
I’d also vote for Raines and Gossage.
Rice was an average player. Being “feared” shouldn’t get one in the Hall of Fame.
Rice doesn’t have the stats in the end. Plain and simple.
Why not Don Mattingly? If integrity, sportsmanship, and character are a factor, and it is indeed not a Hall of Stats, then why not go with one of the most famous and beloved players, for one of the most famous and beloved teams, in the history of the sport?
Don Mattingly should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame
The writers are the same group of boobs who mess up MVP and Cy young voting every year. Why should this be any different? Almost sinful that Goose, Blyleven, Trammel, Kaat aren’t in.
The only reason there is a pro Rice thing going is because of the Boston area papers. Check the stats. He’s not a Hall of Famer. He never won a title. He was a lousy defensive player. He played his whole career in an easy home ballpark which inflated offensive stats. And his character was as low as you can get.
Mattingly can join the Hall of Very Good. Along with Rice and Bernie.
Boy, I am a little surprised at all the support for Blyleven. I don’t remember him as a dominant pitcher in his era, and I wonder whether all of his supporters will also be backing the future candidacy of Mike Mussina (significantly better winning percentage, nearly identical WHIP and slightly worse ERA so far.). Admittedly, Moose won’t have pitched as long, but it has been repeatedly noted that HOF is not a longevity award. Personally, I don’t think either deserves election. Of course, personally, I also think the HOF, with all of its cross-time comparisons, is largely BS.
51 forever Shortly after that article came out, Grimsleys lawyer said that it was untrue about Clemens and Pettitte being named. Of course that wasn’t as big of a story.
PS-
I love Pete’s arbitrary comment about how HoF discussion separates good fans from phonies. My money says at least 20 people on this board have more baseball knowledge.
If Mattingly, Guidry, Bernie, or Billy Martin ever make the Hall, all the Yankee-haters will start a riot.
Raines seems like a borderline case to me. His career OBA of .385 is uninspiring (ranked 132nd all-time), and since that was what he did best, I think I would leave him off my ballot. Great guy though.
“Raines was a very good player. But after the first 8 years of his career, he was nothing special for the next 15 or so. He had a good 97 season with the Yanks.”
nothing special? i feel like i took crazy pills.
here are Raines’ OBPs after the first 8 years:
.395
.379
.359
.380
.401
.365
.374
.383
.403
.395
.337
.413
.351
so, you have one of the greatest base stealers of all time who is also an on-base machine. not a bad combination.
Raines was so much better than Jim Rice that i literally cannot believe intelligent baseball fans are having this argument.
Why does Blyleven have to be dominant? Check the stats. There are plenty of pitchers in the Hall who weren’t dominant. Maybe 10 pitchers in history can be considered dominant anyway. The stats tell the story with Blyleven. No one with that many wins and k’s should be excluded.
Pete – Are you able to set up another poll, only this time letting the poll taker select multiple answers? It would be fun to see.
My vote, in order of certainty:
Blyleven
Gossage
Dawson
Raines
That’s it. No Rice nor Morris for me.
How Raines isn’t a first ballot lock is beyond me. How does one NOT vote for Raines after looking at the numbers? Ridiculous.
Wasn’t it something about the names that were blacked out were Pettitte and Clemens? Grimsleys lawyer said that it was untrue.
“Kevin Brown for one, though he was clearly off them when he pitched for the Yankees.”
except for the times he went around punching walls…
PS again-
If Rice should get in despite not being a nice guy, so should Albert Belle, who was 100 times the player Rice was. Belle was basically a spitting image of Ralph Kiner, without the personality. Check the numbers.
I’d like to hear a good reason for including Rice. Without using the feared logic and the fact that he was in the top 10 in MVP voting 6 times which means less than nothing.
Ranting Guy:
I actually agree on Smith too. He revolutionized the closer position in my opinion.
I know someone who was right there when it happened. He said it was quite a scene! He couldn’t believe it!
Mister Jones: re Blyleven, I will grant the K’s, but there are nearly as many L’s as W’s, which is what it felt like watching him at the time – about a 50/50 shot that he could be beaten. Is that HOF?
He would be the stopper on the All-Netherlands staff, though.
Blyleven and Remerswaal, then pray for a big squall.
Blyleven and Mcgwire are the top 2 from the list for me.
Peter, your take on voting/not voting for guys with 500 HRs and/or guys using PEDs is interesting.
What to do about Thome, Sheffield, PAlmiero, Sosa when they become eligible?
Shamus- Can’t be true because here he said it was Wang not Joba.
Shamus – didn’t the Yankees just draft Sublett and isn’t he therefore ineligible to be traded until a year after he signs? Although that may be a minor detail. I think Cuz is pulling our legs. I don’t recognize the name.
“Yeah “Hmmm†it’s free, and in your argument, worth every penny.
Guidry was a bona fide ace. His career started late, unfortunately for him, but your argument is preposterous — it’s not a longevity award.”
wow. snarky and uninformed. great combo.
Blyleven vs. Guidry is a LANDSLIDE. it’s laughable to even make such an argument. anyone who isn’t a yankee fan would laugh at the comparison.
Guidry and Blyleven have virtually identical career ERAs. except Blyleven did it for more than double the innings.
that’s really all that needs to be said.
Shamus: not true. Cash and Steinny have both said Joba is absolutley untouchable
Time Raines is very close, but when you consider he was a plus defender and also the most successful (percentage-wise) base stealer of all time, he gets my phantom vote. His HoF stats from Baseball reference.com are below. In addition, his ten most comparable players include five HoFers. One way to think about it is that adding him to the HoF essentially keeps the overall quality level the same as it is now. I think that should be the minimum standard, if not a little higher given how much the crony veterans committee and the Big Red Machine ball washers have diluted it already.
Black Ink: Batting – 20 (105) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 114 (176) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 46.8 (91) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 90.0 (175) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Kenny Lofton (861)
Lou Brock (861) *
Max Carey (855) *
Willie Davis (846)
Jimmy Ryan (826)
Jose Cruz (821)
Julio Franco (821)
Fred Clarke (816) *
Harry Hooper (814) *
Enos Slaughter (814) *
I hope Joba stays untouchable because im getting a joba shirt for xmas
Joba would only be traded for the reincarnation of Sandy Koufax in his prime. Joba has the dynamite stuff, the makeup, and also the intimidation factor to be a front of the rotation staple for a long time.
Anyone relying on w/l as a real litmus test for how good a pitcher is probably shouldn’t engage in baseball analysis. See, there’s this little thing called run support. If Blyleven had any, any AT ALL when he was ridiculously dominant he would have had well over the 300 wins all of you w/l idiots would have needed to open the gates. Just go look at his career from 1971-1975 and try to say he wasn’t dominant but screwed by lack of run support. He played on craptacular teams with Minny early on. If w/l is how you actually guage pitcher skill, please curl up in the manly arms of Joe Morgan and imagine yourself actually engaging in baseball analysis.
hmmm: “Raines was so much better than Jim Rice that i literally cannot believe intelligent baseball fans are having this argument.”
It’s ridiculous. And we’re not talking about random people having this opinion, this guy is a sportswriter and a member of the BBWAA which means someday he’s going to have a vote.
The three most deserving guys on that list are Blyleven, Raines, and Gossage. Hands down, no questions, and it’s not even close.
Yet you have sportswriters who will tell you Jack Morris and Jim Rice were the better players. I think a lot of it is selective memory and depends greatly on where one grew up (and I’m fairly sure Peter was raised in New England, hence the blind devotion to Jim Rice).
Raines: .294/.385/.425 AB: 8872 Hits: 2605 BB: 1330 SB: 808 CS: 146
Lou Brock: 293/.343/.410 AB: 10332 Hits: 10332 BB: 761 SB: 938 CS: 307
Raines> Low Brock
Raines did cocaine, so did Paul Molitor.
Okay, some more perspective on Blyleven – and it’s not like I ever rooted for the guy on the Twins or Pirates, just think he is being disrespected by the Hall and Pete: He started 685 Games (Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux both have started 707 games). He had 242 complete games and 60 shutouts (9th all-time)! Roger Clemens, who has started more games, has only 118 complete games (Maddux 108), and Rocket has only 46 career shutouts (Maddux 35).
I don’t have all the cybermetrics at hand, but think it is fairly common knowledge that pitchers’ ERA’s go up in innings 7-9. I’d hazard to guess that if you did a statistical analysis of Blyleven’s complete games (and maybe other games when he went into the 8th or 9th but didn’t get a complete game), and instead hypothetically “removed†him in the 7th or 8th of 100 of them (as Clemens and Maddux were removed), you might drop his ERA by a nice amount.
Lastly, I don’t think Pete ever saw Blyleven’s curve. It was a thing of beauty.
Michael T–
All of his HOFer numbers you’ve cited (HOF Standards, HOF Monitor, etc.) are below average for HOFers. I realize that that shouldn’t preclude him from the Hall (the bottom half of the HOF still includes some great players), but I don’t think it helps his case.
Jack Morris is a tricky case. Based on his longevity he racked up some decent counting stats. He also showed up a lot on the league leaderboard in thngs like wins that are more a function of the team than the pitcher. And, of course romantic sportswriters like Pete love the Gritty Big Gamer. (Although I never thought “Oh Crap” when facing Jack Morris at least relative to the better pitchers of the era like Clemens, Ryan, Gooden, Smoltz, Hershiser, etc). But the most damning statistic of all is his ERA+ of only 1.05. Park-adjusted and adjusted for league offense he was only 5% better than the average pitcher over his career. For comparison, Mike Mussina’s career ERA+ is 122. And even 2006 Mussina, which didn’t look like a hall of famer to any of us was ERA+ 129. Not to mention the anit-Oh Crap Bert Blyleven’s was 114 for his career.
Morris MoF Monitor and Comparables below suggest he will get in despite what I wrote above. He wouldn’t get my vote, FWIW.
Black Ink: Pitching – 20 (88) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching – 193 (47) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching – 39.0 (73) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching – 122.5 (64) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Pitchers
Dennis Martinez (903)
Bob Gibson (885) *
Luis Tiant (873)
Jamie Moyer (864)
Red Ruffing (861) *
Chuck Finley (859)
Amos Rusie (859) *
Burleigh Grimes (855) *
Bob Feller (855) *
Jim Bunning (854) *
Neither members of the media nor fans should have any say. No wonder so many marginal candidates have made it into the HOF that its significance is diluted!
No one should vote on this other than those who wear (or have worn) an MLB uni for at least 5-10 years (tenure to be debated at a future time).
My opinion on this is as meaningless as yours and those of your confreres. I abstain.
Lou Brock had over 10,000 hits? holy s#*@!
Max-
He is barely below average and these are based mostly on batting stats. He had great value as a baserunner and base stealer, which puts him over in my book. Also I am an OBP guy and his career OBP was .385 over 23 seasons, finishing in the top 5 6 times. A lot of those black ink and grey ink batting stats are for garbage like BA, total hits, doubles, RBI that don’t take into account how many outs you make to offset that production.
Peter, did I read you correctly that Todd Stottlemyre and Robb Nen are on the ballot??? Wow, why on earth is Todd Stottlemyre on the ballot and is this the same Robb Nen that is the closer for the Twins?
My vote for HOF is Gossage, (so obvious that it is an embarassment to the HOF committee that he has not already been voted in), Rice, Blylevin and Donnie Baseball.
Also if the rumors of the deal for Santana in the previous post are true, what does that mean for the Yankees CF position this year?
Also, there were rumors a couple of weeks ago that the Yankees were close to signing Mahay, LH RP who pitched with the Braves and came over to them from Texas in the Texeira deal. Any new word on that deal?
SP for 2008
Santana
Pettitte
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy/Mussina
CF: Damon/Gardner/free agent signee/Jackson?
Will the Yankees now pull the trigger on signing Jones or Rowland or let Damon and Gardner share the position until Ajax is ready?
I agree with Vito. I think the correct answer is none of the above.
Miller is legit, he broke the Arod contract and Alex secret talks w/ NYY 72 hrs. before it happened
McGwire’s home runs aside, what else did he do well?
2,000 hits? No-1626 Durabilty? Yes he played 16 seasons, but there were 6 years that he played in less than 100 games. Fielding-he was a statue.
He hit home runs and there’s some legitimate questions that need to be answered regarding them.
As for Rice, a .298 batting average and 382 home runs is a good, possibly very good, but not HISTORIC career. Mattingly has fewer home runs, but a better lifetime average, was a suprior fielder(fielding percentage was 16 points higher-.980-.996), and struck out 1000 times less that Rice did.
now is where registration would be helpful. how do we know that’s the same Miller and not some guy who wants to spread rumors and realizes we trust posts by the name ‘Miller’.
And for fun Jim Rice. His career OBP of .352 just doesn’t cut it for me. Particularly when you consider that he was toast at age 36, putting up an OBP of .276 as a DH! Jorge Posada, for contrast has a career OBP of .381 and put up a .426 as a 35 year-old catcher. Rice was a great player but he simply had too short a peak. Including him is a slippery slope toward Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Will Clark, and even Jack Clark- guys who were MVP caliber for a few years but weren’t elite players for more than 10.
Black Ink: Batting – 33 (49) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 176 (57) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 43.0 (113) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 146.5 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Orlando Cepeda (911) *
Andres Galarraga (893)
Ellis Burks (882)
Duke Snider (882) *
Joe Carter (866)
Dave Parker (856)
Billy Williams (854) *
Moises Alou (850)
Willie Stargell (842) *
Luis Gonzalez (841)
Tim-
I think everyone who played a minimum of 10 years goes on the ballot after they’ve been out of the game for five years, regardless of merit. If they don’t get a certain % of the vote then it is “one and done”.
the way he said it.. it’s Miller I have no doubt about that post I read so far he is 3 for 3 in the baseball news
Michael T–
You make a good case for Raines. I’m blown away by his success rate in SB. And I loved your “the Big Red Machine ball washers” quote, by the way.
It won’t be a travesty or anything if Raines doesn’t make it. But I’m convinced enough that I would vote for him.
Somehow I had an episode of brain fade and forgot Tim Raines.
Maybe it was the lack of coffee and a good breakfast this morning. Add Rock to my list.
the way he said it? the sincere look on his face probably helped too, no?
j/k
John:
McGwire is ninth all time in Slugging. Eleventh all time in OPS and twelfth in OPS+.
He has more than 500 HRs, which up until now, has guaranteed induction.
Unless the Steroid issue precludes him or the criteria changes drastically, he should be in.
Speaking of HOFers, I just had the pleasure of watching a ‘private’ workout of Derek Jeters. DJ showed up at my school (University of Tampa) and did a couple of laps, and some sit ups with his trainer. He was on our track, and he had more spectators then our Soccer Team gets…
“McGwire’s home runs aside, what else did he do well?”
uhhh…
i am NOT interested in the steroid debate, b/c i don’t even know how i feel about it in McGwire’s case. but this sentence is confusing.
“home runs aside”??
that’s like saying “saves aside, what else did mariano rivera do well?” “defense aside, what else did Ozzie Smith do well?” etc.
the guy hit 583 HRs. why would we put them aside?
Saucy, never mind some idiot from NYYFANS.COM is F’n w/ us that wasn’t Miller
KLev-
Those are greta points about Blyleven pitching deep into games, which has considerable value since he is soaking up innings for the team that would otherwise go to league-average (or worse) middle relief. However, Blyleven’s stats actually didn’t suffer for pitching late in the game. I couldn’t find ERA by inning but did find OPS+-against by inning on Baseball-Reference.com. Here it is:
inning 1-3 94
inning 4-6 106
inning 7-9 99
inning 10+ 176.
He did get hurth when they stretched him out over 9 innings, but this was only for a total of 102 plate appearnces out of nearly 22,000.
this is like the blogs own version of a scooby doo episode
Miller,
Any truth what Cuz said about Yanks-Twins being close to a Santana trade for Tabata, Melky, Sublett and Horne?
“Wow, why on earth is Todd Stottlemyre on the ballot and is this the same Robb Nen that is the closer for the Twins?”
you are confusing Nathan with Nen.
Nen was a pretty good closer for the Giants and the 1997 Marlins.
Something about Big Mac one might consider is whether or not 583 HR should cut it anymore. Steroids or no, the 90’s was a hitters era like none other, and offensive stats should be considered accordingly. I could still easily be convinced that he’s worthy, but there seems a fair argument against him. Put it this way: there are a number of other more deserving candidates on the list.
it’s not Miller, it’s some clowwn from NYYFANS.COM F’n w/ us
Max-
My case study for Big Red Machine ball washers is Tony Perez. Lifetime OBP of .341 and HoF batting standards of 40.7. As a first baseman. Hall of Famer NOT! And Joe Morgan continues to lobby even for Dave Concepcion.
Tony Perez:
Gray Ink: Batting – 129 (136) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 40.7 (140) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 81.0 (214) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Compare Stats
Harold Baines (935)
Dave Parker (899)
Andre Dawson (886)
Rusty Staub (872)
Dwight Evans (866)
Billy Williams (860) *
Al Kaline (859) *
Luis Gonzalez (850)
Chili Davis (834)
Jim Rice (820)
Joe Morgan is a cancer on the game, for sure. His ludicrous condemnations of “Moneyball” (does he still believe Billy Beane wrote it?) are so entertaining, however, that I hope he sticks around just so I can continue to mock him.
As to why people like Todd S and Nenn are on the ballot is that it is a right if you played 10 years in the Majors. So even if you were a journeyman as long as you have 10 years of service and have been retired for 5 years you will make it on the ballot and to let the cream rise to the top so to speak is why they have the cieling that if you dont receive x percentage you are not eligible the next year.
The great irony with Morgan is that his playing career reads like a sabrmetric wet dream. And yet, he’ll actually suggest that a high OBP from too many walks can be a problem for a slugger because it “clogs up the basepaths”. Right. I guess it’d be better to make that out than get on base and ruin your team’s chances for scoring. Chestnuts like that make hating the rants of Joe Morgan a real pleasure. It used to make me angry, but now I do find it rather funny. The Billy Beane “Moneyball” thing is truly hilarious.
Coney12 if it’s Santana for Tabata, Melky, Horne & Sublett (?) and none of our 3-headed pithing prospect, let ‘er rip and let Damon play CF for another year. Where’d you hear this?
How good would the next 5+ years be with Santana, Wang & all 3 of the kids? If Pettitte comes back and Moose can put in at least half a good year as a number 5, we’ll be loaded on the mound.
If this was to happen (purely speculation at this point) would there be a 5 man rotation with the 3 (or 4) big ones on 5 days all year long, and the other 3 (or 4) rotating in as Girardi senses who has the hot arm. Back in ‘98 wasn’t there 6 legit starters most of the year (not 6 aces of course) plus Mendoza who could either start or do long relief?
One or two of the kids could also start the season in the minors and come up when someone inevitably falters or gets hurt. I won’t begin to guess who it’d be, or if Joba would be moved to set up man if Pettitte comes back. I’d like to see him start and show all 4 of his pitches.
I can’t imagine Girardi telling a hardened vet like Moose he’s not a full time starter out of spring training. If he slumps for a couple months like he did last year he’ll try to tough it out but he’s shown he’s eventually willing roll with a change to help the team.
TIM RAINES! The guy is more of a HOFer than Jim Rice.
I meant Wang not Horne.
RantingGuy-
No way the Twins are doing a deal without getting Wang/or Joba/or Hughes + Melky + (a couple other valuable cheap parts like Horne or Tabata or Jackson). They can get at least that from other teams. The Sox are actually a great trade partner here. They could offer Buchholz or Lester plus Crisp (cheap contract and CF) plus another high ceiling minor leaguer that isn’t in the Sox 08/09 plans like Masterson or Jed Lowrie.
I’d do Wang/Melky/Horne in a heartbeat, but I suspect the Twins would much rather have Buchholz/Crisp/Masterson or Lowrie. And the Dodgers have a lot to offer too.
Bobby, steroids were illegal in the game. There just wasn’t any testing allowed, so you pretty much had to catch someone with the syringe in their hands. Falls under the same rules as cocaine, which baseball clearly was able to punish players for.
Besides, steroids didn’t need to be illegal in the game, as they are already illegal under federal law.
I think I just got sick. Got this email from Tom Tom.
Trading Melky Cabrera, even as part of a Santana package, it ridiculous. The domino effect would be extreme. Center field would be severely weakened by having Damon out there (instead of Melky); left field would be severely weakened by having Matsui out there (instead of Damon); DH would be a mess all year with Giambi out there (instead of Matsui). Three positions get weakened (two get SEVERELY KILLED defensively speaking) with the loss of Melky.
Rowand ain’t happenin’ folks. Neither is Andruw Jones. Melky is our CF.
I’ve always loved the Mattingly-Puckett debate. Someone brought it up earlier that if Puckett is in, Mattingly should be in. I always thought that was fair. Look at the numbers:
Kirby
.318-207-1,085; .837 OPS; ‘89 batting champ; led AL in hits four times; six gold gloves
Mattingly
.307-222-1,099; .829 OPS; ‘84 batting champ; led AL in hits twice; ‘85 MVP; nine gold gloves
Morris should be in this year. In fact, he should have been in a long time ago. He’s the classic guy that stat geeks always criticize, because him getting in debunks their entire reason for living. Fact is, no pitcher had more wins in the ’80s. He pitched a career defining game in the ‘91 Series, and he was 6-1 lifetime in the postseason.
I’m also stunned there isn’t more support. The man fell 12 wins short of 300 and had a surgery that changed baseball forever. There has to be some reward for having that type of courage. Not that someone else wouldn’t have had it first, but a lot of that was Tommy pushing Frank Jobe to come up with a way to save his career. Plus, he was a damn good pitcher.
Michael T – I was just asking someone else about what they said was happening. He just said he meant someone else.
I would put Damon in center for 25 games and sign Camaron to take his place after his suspension. Hopefully next year a-jax will be ready to take over the duties.
Does anyone else think that it would be better trading Wang than Hughes? I think Hughes has a greater upside and Wang is what he is. Dont get me wrong a good pitcher but has IMO peaked.
“I’ve always loved the Mattingly-Puckett debate. Someone brought it up earlier that if Puckett is in, Mattingly should be in. I always thought that was fair.”
CF.
1B.
i’m not wild about Puckett’s induction, but the fact that their numbers are identical while one played CF and the other played 1B should end the debate.
there really is no case to be made for Mattingly over someone like, say, John Olerud.
would you include Olerud in the Hall of Fame?
Did I just enter the twlights zone?
Jennifer –
Surely that’s a joke????
there is no way the real SJ44 posted that.
No Doreen it is true.
I get an email update from Tom Tom, and that was on there. 
And why would someone post their phone number on here.
On further review, I’ll retract a vote for Rice. He had a great knack for making extra outs — the man made the late ’90s McGwire look like a speedster.
Brendan (Boston): Why is it news when the Yankees inquire about Santana. What team hasn’t?
Rob Neyer: (12:05 PM ET ) It’s news because the Yankees are one of the few teams that’s likely to offer the sort of long-term contract that would make a trade possible.
——————————————————————————–
Kevin(CT): If the Yanks offer a Hughes, Cabrera, Ohlendorf and Tabata for Santana would that be enough? What do you think it will take?
Rob Neyer: (12:11 PM ET ) I think that would be more than enough. I’m not smart enough to figure the perfectly balanced/acceptable trade, but if the Yankees offered those four guys the Twins would be foolish if they didn’t jump on it.
——————————————————————————–
tik tok (oz): You blog about Wallace Mathews’ article in Newsday, taking exception with a couple things he said, but it seems to me his larger point is that the Yankees are chumps for talking to A-Rod after they said they wouldn’t, then negotiating against themselves. Sounds like Wallace got it right. But that’s just the Yankees being the Yankees, right? (Or in other words, the man behind the curtain is a chump?)
Rob Neyer: (12:18 PM ET ) Right. And my point was that how are the Yankees chumps for getting the best player in the majors at a price they can easily afford to pay?
——————————————————————————–
Doug (NY): Am I naive to think that over the next 6 years, I’d rather have Hughes (for approx $6M) than Santana (for approx $150M)
Rob Neyer: (12:28 PM ET ) It depends on which team you’re running. If you’re running the Yankees and you want to make a *profit* you want Hughes. But if you’re running the Yankees and you want to win (while still making a profit, but a smaller one) you want Santana. It’s important to remember that Hughes, for all his talent, probably won’t win 100 games in the majors, simply because so many bad things can happen to a young pitcher.
——————————————————————————–
Adam (NYC): It’s hard to believe that Santana will win another 100 games though…wouldn’t Hughes have a better chance of reaching that mark than a 29 year old pitcher past his prime? If the Yanks sign Santana to a 10 year extension, they’d be paying Santana $20 million a year at age 39…at the same time Hughes would be entering the prime of his career. Can you say Kevin Brown? Not a very wise business move to say the least.
Rob Neyer: (12:34 PM ET ) Adam, here’s a chance for some research. Go back and make a list of 20 pitching prospects with Hughes’ credentials. Then make a list of 20 pitchers with Santana’s credentials. I’ll bet you the Santana comps won more games afterward than the Hughes comps did.
——————————————————————————–
Stephen (East Greenbush, NY): Rob, do you think Jorge Posada is a HOF catcher already? If not, what are his chances with his next four years? Thanks.
Rob Neyer: (12:42 PM ET ) He’s not. Right now he’s Elston Howard. But if he can defy historical trends and play well for another three or four years, he becomes a solid candidate.
so much for registation. i think we could use it right now
registRation i mean
heard about the curt GPS voice thing. does he shut up between turns?
Shamus that really wasn’t your number was it?
“hmmm
November 27th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I like to toss salads….
Aside from ripping on people for their opinions…”
whatever.
if you have no desire to learn anything about baseball and don’t think posting opinions that don’t hold up in light of facts should be called out, then fine.
i’ll leave.
especially if Pete is going to allow impersonators.
I think he talks about how much he hates the Yankees, and about steriods.
shamus you’re nuts!!
I think he lobbies for at least one Cy Young vote.
Rice is a pretty bad HOF candidate.
Gossage, Blyleven and Raines run circles around the other candidates.
Okay that was not me.
Jennifer,
Imposter alert. Unless Shamus decided to go lower case.
I wonder what the LH blog signal is to get Pete’s attention? You know like to get Batman’s attention you put up the bat in the spotlight. Pete you’re needed around here.
None of the last 3 posts are mine! Hope you enjoyed your fun.
ray just email him! Copy the offending posts and Pete will take care of it.
Thanks Jennifer!
If this idiot causing trouble didn’t make a case for registration I don’t know what will.
At least the troll is smart enough to know that Yankee fans are hot.
“As for Mark McGwire, I’m not sure he would get my vote regardless of his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs.”
What a crazy thing to say! If you are ignoring the PED stuff than McGwire is definitely a Hall of famer. Come on dude, seriously look at his stats. If you’re just going by stats than McGwire is clearly a HOF player.
“jen jen” seems to be turned on by the whale demographic.
Rice- feared only because he was the best on mediocre Boston teams. He played with Yaz at the end of his career (he played about 5 years too long IMO), Lynn (very good player for Boston) who left for free agency, and Dewey Evans (very good player, definitely underated, but not HOF material) that’s it. He was not good away from Fenway, and was done after age 34. Not a HOF.
Blyleven, (who I saw pitch on TV many times) had the best curveball in baseball in his time. Was a strikout leader for many years. Played on bad teams in hitters parks. He deserves HOF status. Besides, anyone who can drop the f-bomb on TV (see it on you-tube)deserves consideration for cojones alone.
I don’t think Jack Morris was as good as Blyleven, sorry. Yes he had a great postseason record, and yes he was a gamer. But stats don’t lie and Bert was the superior pitcher for a longer period.
Raines needs to be in. The second best leadoff man in his time. Does suffer in comparison to Ricky (who doesn’t?)
Dawson I am torn about. He was a great player who sacrificed his knees on that horrible green concrete they called astroturf in Montreal. You talk about feared, this guy was feared. A much better all around player than Rice. I think if pressed I could vote for him.
Article on Hank’s ownership style.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3127880
On the Santana thing, is it a case of where’s there’s smoke there’s fire? Hank seems like an up and up guy. Not at all into subterfuge. I hope he keeps his word on Hughes, though. I’m not worried about Joba.
On many levels it makes sense. The Yankees are one of the few teams that can afford Santana. He pitches well there. We have some good prospects.
Johnny Damon brings turkey day to Thailand. The headline was a little harsh…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....uge7AE1vAI
None of these guys strike me as sure thing HOF material except
McGuire. To bad he’s an idiot. Speaking of idiots….
I would write in for Rose. He would take all these guys out in a landslide were he on the ballot. Definitely a sure thing HOF’er in my eyes, even if he was a gambler.
saucy,
Thanks for the article. I liked Damon’s response to the question about why he jumped teams. We all just want to be loved.
Has anyone heard when the Yankees will announce all the signings? Will they hold one big press conference to announce everyone?
In the category of and we thought Pavano was a waste how would you like to be the COlorado Rockies/Atlanta Braves as Mike Hampton is hurt yet again as he hurt his hamstring in winter ball
I would add Parker Trammel and Blyleven to your list. As for Rock character counts see Ken Burns film on his reason for sliding headfirst
gayle,
Not to mention Wood & Prior. Although Wood signed a one yr. deal (nice of him to show loyalty) the Cubs are reportedly shopping Prior. Though it’s nobody’s fault, those two pitchers have brought years of frustration and uncertainty to the Cubs. We’re trying to fill one hole. Can you imagine trying to fill 2?
Can they drop players off the 40 man without them having to pass thru wavers?
Hampton is the original Carl Pavano. When was the last time that guy pitched a full season?
The thought that a pitcher like Bert Blyleven doesn’t get in because he “didn’t scare anybody” is BS. His complete games, his 60 shutouts tell a different story. Ford, Hunter, Spahn didn’t scare anybody either, but, no batter was thrilled to see them standing on the mound. Same with Kaat, who should get in by the Veteran’s Commitee along with John. Rice was like Harold Baines…good career as a hitter, but, had something in common with Michael Jackson. Wearing a glove for no particular reason, same as Al Oliver.Gossage should be in and God only knows if any of these writers ever watche Andre Dawson play the outfield, run the bases or hit. His numbers dwarf Tony Perez’ numbers.
“As for Rock character counts see Ken Burns film on his reason for sliding headfirst”
It didnt stop Paul Molitor from being elected
Jennifer I believe it is all good if you get dropped from the 40 those players will be optioned to the minors and I believe they all have plenty of options as they are so young
“The New York Daily News believes the Yankees will offer Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and another prospect to the Twins for Johan Santana.
If they’re willing to part with both Hughes and Cabrera, they’d have to be considered the heavy favorites to land Santana. The Daily News believes the third player in the deal could be Austin Jackson or Alan Horne. It’s been reported that the Twins are quite interested in Jackson.”
That’s a bit hefty but if it does happen that puts Damon back in center and Matsui in right, unless they pick up a free agent outfielder, which they probably would. Hughes almost had a no-hitter his first game but 6 years of Santana might be worth it. Try not to trade Austin Jackson or Alan Horne!!!!
dawson, gossage, morris, rice
http://keephughes.blogspot.com/
READ IT IF YOU WANT TO KEEP PHIL HUGHES !!!!!
*hat tip to RAB for bringing it to attention
i do that trade yesterday if the report is true. people have been so starved for prospects in the bronx that each one is treated like an untouchable. hughes MIGHT be a top-of-the-rotation guy someday. MIGHT. santana’s the best pitcher in the game and he’s only 28.
and yeah, i bet they can track down another slap-hitting centerfielder with a low on-base percentage somewhere.
Russell W agreed that is a heavy price to pay. Phil showed alot of guts coming in the game in relief of Roger.
I think there’s still the possibility of getting it done sans Hughes. Give them Horne and another high ceiling prospect. Melky, Horne, another good pitching prospect, and Jackson. Santana will have some say in where he wants to pitch for the next 7 years.
Jennifer/Gayle, if they were on the 40 man roster and dropped off, they will need to be waived. Here is a link to transactions. Pretty simple. Just read options and waivers.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Shawon Dunston
Rich “Goose†Gossage
Chuck Knoblauch
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Lee Smith
Excuse me terry what are you talking about? Some idiot wrote that stuff.
I haven’t read all the posts, and no offense, I don’t need to. I got the flavor.
Here’s what you need to know (and can know) about the Santana situation:
1) The rumors that are circulating in the media regarding who will go if the Yankees trade for Santana, are just that. Remember what I’ve said in the past: the information you read in the media is being circulated purposefully.
The Twins have NO leverage in this trade. Santana has to sign off on it.
2) Santana absolutely controls both sides of any trade. He has a full no-trade and is willing to wait until after 2008 to head to the FA market.
3) The Twins HAVE to trade him now if they are going to get anything at all for him. They cannot afford to suffer another “Torii for nothing” transaction.
4) Santana is looking for a minimum of six years, 25M per. There are not many teams that will pay that.
5) Santana will only go where he wants to go. He will not go to Boston.
6) There is one team that Santana wants to play for.
7) This has nothing to do with the “best deal” that the Twins could get. They will get what Santana tells them they will get or they will take the draft picks in the 2009 amateur draft. Try selling that to the fans.
9) Twins’ ownership has left Bill Smith a horrible mess. Only Terry Ryan’s genius kept the Twins competitive.
10) The GM meetings have nothing to do with the timing.
11) Brian Cashman is in his “silent, but deadly” mode.
12) Expect this to happen quickly and to not include as much as the “experts” think.
More as allowed.
1) Raines
2) Dawson
3) Rice
MILLER were did you get that info?
Now listen here, Mr. Morris. This is a fan forum and we’re just having some fun here. I want to protect Hughes at all costs, so I tried to come up with a scenario that would appeal to the Twins. They get someone to fill in for Torii until Jackson comes up. He’s good, really good, so it would hurt to let him go. In fact I’d rather have him than Tabata, but apparently the rumor is that Mini likes Jackson.
As for Hughes being valued less than Horne or Jackson, who do you think you’re kidding? He was their prized prospect until Joba made a big splash. A top pitching prospect valued less than an outfielder? Uh, okay.
O.K. that rant was just a joke. But, really, do you have to be so smarmy?
51:
I said what I said because it’s the truth. Santana has a FULL no trade clause. Period.
THat wasnt me who posted that. Someone is writing as another Miller any giving people false info
Green Beret I certainly am no expert on the 40 man roster rules but I read that to mean that they could be dropped and optioned IF they had 3 year pro ball, now the question is does time in the minors mean PRO ball.
If that is the case then Cervilli (2003), Marquez (2004) and White (2003) need to be protected by the 40 man so that they cannot be included in the Rule V draft BUT they can then be optioned to the minors without having to clear waivers. Patterson I am not sure about as I would highly doubt that playing 3 years in the Independent League counts as Pro Ball.
“After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team’s 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he’s served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called “options” on him.
When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on “optional assignment.”
To bad i would have loved to have that really be the deal…
Whats the point of having a required email address if anyone can just put your name in the slot and post as you, Pete?
Bobcat is right. The Twins have very little leverage.
Think about it. Santana has a full no trade. All he has to say is, “no”, and the Twins can’t deal him anywhere.
At this point, why would Santana agree to a trade to a team he doesn’t want to go to? Doesn’t make any sense from his standpoint.
He can play out the year in Minnesota, go to the team he wants, and the Twins get draft picks.
Or, he can be traded to the team he wants to go to, sign a lucrative extension, and the Twins salvage what they can in the deal.
The key question is, which team does he want to play for?
Good teams find that out through backchannel work.
If the rumors are true in the industry, that team is the Yankees.
Is it accurate? Who knows.
However, I agree with bobcat’s premise. Santana is holding the cards here and the Twins know it.
They just have to decide how long they want him to remain with the team.
Bobby: That is not leverage. The fanbase is not happy and they will be paying for a new stadium. Future draft picks that may or may not pan out don’t substitute for a competitive now.
51 Forever,
I think that Bobcat is trying to say that Santana has leverage because he has a no-trade clause (due to top 3 Cy Young results from 2006). The trade partner also has some leverage because any trade would be contingent on an extension (if blue chips are involved).
This can work for all three parties. Minny could get some good prospects, Santana could get a nice contract, and the Yankees (hopefully) could end up with the best pitcher in the game.
I’m hoping that what Bobcat said about it not costing us as dearly as everyone fears is correct.
Bobcat, you took the words right out of my keyboard.
Why would the Yankees package Hughes AND Melky plus two more top prospects for a pitcher a) who wants to play for them and b) only the Yanks and a couple others can afford?
And folks, if Wang is included, (stupid for the Twins cuz he sux on turf) that’s a straight deal, maybe a lower level prospect in there. Wang’s numbers are comparable to Santana’s and he’s about $12 million cheaper and 3 years younger. No way they get one of our major leaguers AND Wang.
Bobcat is so right here, the Twins have to trade him sooner for max value. The trade deadline + a full no trade clause = a salary dump at best. The rest of the league won’t be offering as much then, especially not half their major league roster.
If Santana goes FA in ‘09, so the Yanks pick him up. Money is no object then. Yanks hold the cards now too. It should be something like Kennedy, Melky, Tabata or equivelant. Let them have their pick of a class A position player too.
Plus, Santana fits the model of a soon to be 31 yo pitcher with shoulder problems. See Pedro Martinez. That velocity isn’t going to be there forever especially with his small frame.
The Yankees could very well win championships with Santana which is why they should get him, but they shouldn’t give up the farm.
Just my opinion.
I’ll be back with more later, hopefully. Word is this thing is getting legs.
I posted ONE rumor one this blog. ONE. And it turned out to be pretty freakin’ true.
So think whatever you want Fred.
Bobcat,
Thanks for the heads up.
Of course this thing has legs. Hank’s already let the cat out of the bag, he’s so excited. lol. And he said it’ll be fair to both sides and the Yankees will not be robbed (ahem, Texas).
51:
In whose conversations were Hughes and Melky mentioned? Not mine. Listen to what I tell you: you read what you are supposed to read. You will NEVER read what you are not supposed to read.
The question that the Yankees have to answer internally is “Hw much do we pay for Santana for one year?”, knowing that they will sign him after the 2008 season anyway.
They know that they need to give up enough for the Twins to be able to sell their fans on the fact that they got more from the Yankees than they would get with two draft picks. That is why there are 3-4 names on the table.
The citizens of Minnesota have given a billionaire (the owner of the Twins, Carl Pohlad) 375 million dollars to build a new, open air ballpark for the Twins.
The 3 most popular players in the last 20 years of the Twins have been Kirby Puckett, Torii Hunter and Johan Santana.
Puckett, sadly, is dead. They got nothing for Hunter. Draft picks, while nice, don’t sell tickets.
If the same thing happens with Santana, you are going to have one, unhappy fan base.
The Twins can sell the fact that Santana only wants to play for one team and “their hands are tied”, make a deal, and satisfy their fan base.
They can’t satisfy their fan base by letting him walk after the season for nothing.
That’s the dilemma facing the Twins. Meaning, they have little leverage in this thing.
The more smoke around this, the more it looks like something is up.
From the Yankees standpoint, I sure hope so. I’d LOVE Santana in pinstripes.
A guy that young, that healthy and that competitive, added to an offense that score over 950 runs last year and has everybody back, is something to be happy about if you are a Yankees fan.
minnesota wants a new stadium. the yankees want santana, they also have a new stadium being built. how about instead of knockinig down the old stadium, just trade it for santana.
I think that something could be up between the Yankees and Twins. Hank said that they were discussing the possibility of a Santana trade, but that he didn’t want to go into details. Hank also said that he didn’t want to tip his hand about what was going on with A-Rod a couple of weeks ago. We all know what was happening and what happened afterwards, of course A-Rod is back. When Hank isn’t talking or going into details, I believe that something big could be happening. That’s just the feeling that I get, that’s all.
Jim Kaat should be in the hall of fame dammit.
If sideburns were to be considered, Brady Anderson would be a lock.
Also, keep in mind that Santana was not a happy camper last year and it showed. I doubt Minnesota wants to have to deal with that if they don’t have to.
Someone else, earlier, posted that if they do not trade Santana over the winter, the Twins will be able to trade him to anyone they want at the trade deadline, because the no-trade is limited because he did not win the Cy Young in 2007. Is this accurate? If so, then the Twins do, in fact, have some leverage; they can refuse to trade him until July or August, to a team of their choosing (whoever offers them the best deal), and not lose him for draft picks to free agency.
It would make no sense for the Yankees to trade Wang to get Santana. This makes less sense than trading Hughes or Joba for that matter. Wang is a PROVEN starter in the AL East and has posted an OPS+ of 124/121 consecutively. The upgrade of Santana from Wang is not great enough for this trade to make any sense.
It would be like upgrading from Jose Reyes with Hanley Ramirez. It doesn’t make sense.
Secondly, Wang is not horrible on turf and he in fact has a 7-3 record on turf. In two games in the Metrodome Wang has a 1-0 record with a 2.57 ERA.
Pitching in Tropicana field he has a record of 5-2 with a 4.11 ERA. That’s not horrible by any means and would probably improve with a better fielding shortstop behind him.
Doreen,
According to Cot’s he had a limited no-trade clause that became a full no-trade one because of Top-3 voting in the Cy Young award in ‘06 or ‘07.
The Yankees minor league system is loaded with RH talent. The 2008 answer to Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy, will be Horne, McCutcheon and Sanchez.
There are a lot of teams that covet those guys. Its just a matter of finding a match.
If the Twins go through with the Matt Garza for Delmon Young trade, they will be looking for another young, RH arm to add to their rotation.
Liriano will be back next year so he will fulfill Santana’s spot in the rotation.
The Yankees have the pieces to make this deal and make it as painlessly as possible. Its going to be a little painless (with regard to the players they trade) because the guy is the best pitcher in the game.
Dave Dombrowski (Tigers GM) always says, to get a good player, you have to make a deal that makes you hurt a little (with the talent you give up) in return.
As far as comparing Santana to Pedro, from an injury perspective, that’s not accurate. Pedro had tears in his rotator cuff from 2001-2006. That’s why the Sox didn’t re-sign him after the 2004 season. He pitched through it because he is a gutsy SOB.
Santana is bigger, stronger, and has no such arm injuries. At 28, he’s the ace you give up talent to get. That’s why you stockpile your prospects. To make a deal like the Santana deal.
The Twins could wait to make a move until the trade deadline but what Santana is worth as a 3 month rental is marginal. He has to agree to an extension in order for the Twins to get anything of value and it sounds like Johan has ideas of where he will and won’t sign an extension so that ties the Twins hands somewhat.
51,
Why the insult toward bobcat? If you have read this blog at all in the last 6 months, you would know he is a good poster and does have more info than the casual blog poster.
He doesn’t insult anyone. At least not to my knowledge.
You may not agree with his take on things. However, I assure you, its a helluva lot more accurate than most of the stuff you will read on the ‘net in the coming few days.
Let’s not reduce this place to another mindless blog with insults. We have enough people who come on here each day to insult or agitate folks. Why add to it?
Wait…Barry Bond’s isn’t on the HOF ballot?
I agree, SJ44. The deal should include pitchers from the next pitching class. If you trade either Hughes or IPK, we’re still short-handed in the rotation. Santana’s good, but he can’t go twice in the rotation.
Ill support anyone with the name Bobcat, the mascot of my alma mater.
SJ44
Very well said.
Barry Bonds is still playing, you aren’t eligiable until you are retired for 5 years.
“The Twins would have no leverage if Santana made it clear he’d only go to the Yankees. Which is entirely possible.”
Anybody have a link or a named source where such info has come from?
There are other teams out there that actually give him a better chance at winning a championship.
NYPD113th
just curious, what teams give him a better chance of winning a championship? Red Sox excluded….
I don’t know how past success has anything to do with the future. The fact the Yanks made the playoffs 12 straight years doesn’t mean NY has the best chance to win it now.
I said, that other teams can play him, and NY isn’t his bewst chance to win a ring, that’s all I said.
Really? A rotation featuring Wang/Santana/Pettitte (assuming he comes back) plus the best offense in baseball. Seriously, what team would be better?
yankees62…..
outside Boston, I’d say LAA.
Really? A rotation featuring Wang/Santana/Pettitte (assuming he comes back) plus the best offense in baseball. Seriously, what team would be better?
Beckett, Santana, DiceK
All well and good, but if he comes to NY, which team has a better shot?
Thanks mel and pat, for answering my questions.
Other teams may offer a better short term chance (and that’s debatable) to win.
However, few, if any of those teams will meet his asking price.
His new contract has as much to do with where he lands as the players the Twins would receive in return.
The Angels aren’t paying that bounty. Nor are the Dodgers.
The Red Sox? I have heard for a long time he doesn’t want to play in Boston. If that’s true, then you take them out of it.
It leaves the Yankees and Mets and the Yankees have more to give to the Twins than the Mets.
“All well and good, but if he comes to NY, which team has a better shot?”
-You are missing the point, ray?
Of course, with Johan, the Yanks have the better chance. Just like with Johan, Boston has the better chance.
You have to plug him into both scenarios
Johan, Beckett, DiceK > Johan, Wang, Pettitte(if he returns)
Kirby and Donnie had eerily similar career totals. And I think after Kirby’s misconduct post retirement, Mattingly has him outclassed by a large margin. Mattingly doesn’t have the ring, but he’s not a GM. He did his part. If one is in, both should.
“Are you guys seriously arguing with someone who thinks the Yankees don’t offer a pretty solid road to a title?
There is dumb and then theres really dumb.”
LMAO!!!!!! Gotta love fans like you Patterson! See what you want to see.
Please tell me where I said this OR, did I say that other teams may offer him a better shot at a title?
Pay attention.
Is there anybody here besides me that doesn’t care what Boston has or does? Or even cares that they’ve outperformed us lately? Who’s into cheering for their team and not obsessing about their rival? Let’s hear it, guys!
As per Jon Heyman, Santana WOULD invite a trade to:
NY, Boston, LA Dodgers, or LAA
Just heard on the radio Twins opened discussions asking for one of the “three” and Melky. Per wfan.
“You have to plug him into both scenarios
Johan, Beckett, DiceK > Johan, Wang, Pettitte(if he returns)”
Actually I don’t, you said that NY wouldn’t be his best chance and I disagree. New York has the best offense in baseball and if Johan came to NY they’d have the best pitching staff as well. There in my opinion
Johan/Wang/Pettitte & Yankee offense > Beckett/Shilling/Dice K & Red Sox Offense
“has been thoroughly disproven”
Not an English major are we Patterson?
There is a difference between “disproven” and “disagree”.
To get back to Pete’s HOF topic for a sec.
If Don Sutton is in, shouldn’t Bert Blyleven? They both won 20 games just once, but Sutton played on mostly better teams than Blyleven. Blyleven’s career 3.31 ERA is well below the league average for his era (pardon the pun) 3.90
He ranks 5th in strikeouts(3,701),9th in shutouts (60), and 13th in innings pitched ( 4,970) to name a few categories.
Bill James has a formula where the average score for a HOF pitcher is 50 or higher. Blyleven’s score works out to a 50.
I agree with the rest of Pete’s picks.
“Johan/Wang/Pettitte & Yankee offense > Beckett/Shilling/Dice K & Red Sox Offense”
You conveniently assume Andy is back and include offense and exclude bullpen.
“What other team has the young talented pitching the Yankees do plus the money to go out and get anything they want? I think that makes them title worthy.”
Boston clearly has comparable “young talented pitching”, and as “getting what they want”, please tell me whom on the free agent market is that desirable?
“one of the 3, and melky”
thanks, John Heyman. like we didnt know that already. ground breaking stuff, that John Heyman gives us.
is it me, or has this board become personal attack after personal attack of late? Or has it always been like this? I’ve been posting for a while now and it seems that these attacks are getting out of hand
Did John Heyman mention what the Twins want from the Angels, Sox, and the Dodgers?
Gone unnoticed recently is Brian Cashman. Hank Steinbrenner has said his GM is busy preparing for the winter meetings with bullpen fixes on his mind and that’s not to be doubted but there’s also the stealth side to Cashman. He’s almost been too quiet meaning that he’s also very busy looking at every angle for Santana trade proposals. It should be no surprise that the GM and his boss are working in concert to announce personnel moves within a month that will be enough to think 4th of July fireworks came early.
As always, Brian Cashman never tips his hand.
“You conveniently assume Andy is back and include offense and exclude bullpen.”
Well we’re talking about what TEAM has a better shot to win. The TEAM includes offense no? As for the bullpen, I’m assuming if Santana comes, Joba will go back into the bullpen and Andy will decide to come back.
Therefore, I envision Johan/Andy/Wang/Hughes or IPK/Moose SP – Rivera/Joba BP & Yankee offense > Beckett/Dice K/Shilling/Wake/Lester SP – Okajima/Papelbon & RS Offense
“That’s assuming Okajima doesn’t hit a soph slump. he wasn’t exactly good in the second half. That’s also assuming Papelbons shoulder holds up. Who else do they have??? Brain dead Sox fans are the worst.”
WOW! Talk about hunting and pecking, huh?
The Boston pen was the best in all of baseball all season for starters.
Secondly, Papelbon pitched in 59 games to a 1.85 era, that’s enough of an answer to me.
Oki was overused badly and pitched lights out again after a rest.
Please explain the comparable young pitching Boston has to the Yankees after Buchholz. And please don’t embarrass yourself and say Lester.
Buchholz = Hughes
Lester = Kennedy
“In 2008 the Yankees can’t sign Sabathia and Sheets and trade for Peavy with all their resources? That’s not possible??? Yeah, sorry, Boston PD. It is.”
Ummm, yeah, for the 2009 season, not the 2008 season.
Another gem Pat.
Sooooo…How ’bout them Yankees?
LOL mel. This place is getting to be like the the Sons of Sam Horn lol.
Migames, it’s been pretty bad lately with the personal attacks. There just isn’t enough baseball right now. If only we could all agree to just ignore any insults maybe it would stop.
I do think you’ll see both the LA Dodgers and the LAA get involved, both have excellent young major league-ready talent to trade.
Yeah, With the Sox fans who show up here more like the Sons of Fog Horn Leg Horn.
I heard that the Dodgers will have to ante up Torre and Proctor. And the Angels will have to give up Hunter. At the minimum.
The Angels are going hard after Cabrera. If those talks progress, they are out of the Santana deal.
“Yeah, With the Sox fans who show up here more like the Sons of Fog Horn Leg Horn.”
lol
Egghead Jr!
http://www.seanet.com/~rod/images/eggjr.jpg
Kennedy, Melky, 2 of anyone else below them. That’s my deal.
“The Angels are going hard after Cabrera. ”
According to the Los Angeles Times, trade negotiations between the Angels and Marlins over Miguel Cabrera “appear to have hit a snag.”
There’s been some speculation that the Marlins wanting Nick Adenhart as part of the deal has caused the Angels to resist, but the newspaper reports that the team is “reluctant to include [Howie] Kendrick and [Jeff Mathis] in a package for Cabrera.” Mathis is anything but a top-notch catching prospect at this point, so it seems unlikely that a deal would be held up over him.
Source: Los Angeles Times
I was thinking if they give up Melky in a trade. What are the chances that Cano ends up producing less than norm, being that his brother just got shipped out? They were inceperable twins. Could this be a possibility. Would it be better to keep Hughes and Wang. Trade Melky,Cano and prospect instead?
“What are the chances that Cano ends up producing less than norm, ”
He’s a professional sos, I’d imagine he’d deal with it and move on.
supposidly the deal has hit a snag on what players the Marlins want, to who the Angels are willing to give. So they might not be out of it yet.
S.o.S.
I thought about the C-buddies earlier, but I convinced myself that Cano’s first reaction would be (in Spanish of course), “Thank God it wasn’t me”.
Norm who?
Cano will still have Alex on the team who he is close to.
Cano will survive. He’s an adult being paid well. He’s not in little league.
Alex isn’t the same for Cano as Melky is. I don’t want to see him go, but its tough to pass on the best pitcher of our generation because you want to keep buddies together. Its a tough decision.
Norm Chow
(That’s for you J-dawg. Don’t you think he deserves a head coaching job?)
I don’t think that Cano will have any worries. He just has to move ahead and keep working hard. He is well on his way to a terrific career.
NYPD113
The Angels HAVE been going hard after Cabrera. If there weren’t “snags” they would have already landed him.
My point was “If those talks progress, they are out of the Santana deal.”
No team has enough organizational rescources to obtain both Cabrera and Santana.
Anyone else think the Yanks should get a salary dump bullpen arm lumped in with Santana? Who does Minny have on par with the Viz?
you do know Johan and Cano got along at ALLSTAR week
Blyleven
a no brainer:
Black Ink: Pitching – 16 (131) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching – 237 (24) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching – 50.0 (38) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching – 120.5 (68) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Pitchers (asterik denotes HOF)
Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Tommy John (889)
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Jim Kaat (854)
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *
A followup:
1) Bashers don’t bother me, although I’ll never admit to being a moron. I will admit to being, at times, an arrogant SOB. I’m told it’s one of my redeeming qualities. Thanks for the support, however.
2) No offense to John Heyman or any other member of the media, but their job is to generate interest in the publication that carries their information, so that people will buy it and see the advertisements that appear in it. Oftentimes, writers’ “sources” feed them mis-information for various purposes, such as creating the illusion that there is “another buyer”. That is the case here.
3) Cashman is quiet, not dead. He is dangerous (to other teams) when he is quiet. How many times do you call him doing something and then saying to yourself, “that came out of nowhere…”.
4) A trade for Santana will happen only if the Twins and Yankees agree on the cost of the short-term rental (2008 season). While the Twins don’t have to agree to a trade, if they can get something better than what they would in the 2009 Amateur Draft, it is worth their while.
5) The most I can give you at this point is that lists have been exchanged and names agreed on. The names are not for publication, sorry to say.
6) You can accept my posts as accurate, I don’t really care. I offer the information that is allowed to be offered without compromising my standing. Read into that what you will.
Mel- I think that Norm Chow has done a fine job working with our offense. We just don’t have any receivers to work with. He should land a head coaching job one of these days. Norm was a candidate for the Arizona Cardinals’ head job before it went to Ken Whisenhunt. He does deserve a head coaching job, but I don’t want to see him leave!
There’s a long conversation going on at the ESPN article on the Yankees/Twins talks with lots of poop being flung. The latest was there’s going to be an announcement that the Red Sox would get Santana for Coco, Lester, cash, and a AA guy. The funny part? The guy’s handle was “Tranceivever” Guy can’t even spell.
Brandon:
Most of the players get along that break…
Bobcat,
So the Yanks and Twins have agreed on the players the Yanks will have to give up?
Mel if that were to happen the soxs would have committed highway robbery.
There’s a delicate situation with Boston in any pursuit toward Santana. They have little if any pitching prospects in their farm system that can be determined as major league ready other than Lester and Buchholz. Emptying their vault for Santana would also mean that Manny’s option in 2009 must be picked up or no protection for Ortiz in the lineup. By no stretch can they afford to sit on their hands.
Goose Gossage
Bert Blyleven
Mark McGuire
Goose was the most dominant closer of his time. He Saved Games by pitching THREE innings many times – not 2/3 or 1.0 innings.
Bert Blyleven blows away Jack Morris in every category. During the period 1970-1976 Bert, starting at Age 19, had the best curveball in baseball and compiled some eyepopping pitching stats during that period. He had 287 wins and a career ERA of 3.31, pitching for many mediocore teams.
Mark McGuire – Yeah without his “cheating” you could say he probably doesn’t put up those great numbers. But how many other Hall of Famers were cheating in the 1960s and 1970s with amphetamines and whatever else?
583 HRs, 1441 RBIs, 12-time all Star selection in 16 Seasons. Is that not “dominant for his era”?
J-dawg,
Yup. He’s a winner. Very quiet man from Hawaii, but has done wonders with BYU, Philip Rivers, Southern Cal, and now the Titans. Brilliant offensive mind. If June Jones doesn’t come back to UH, they’ll have Chow on speed dial.
Max Fischer
November 27th, 2007 at 10:53 am
If Blyleven is elected he will become the only player in the Hall who was born in Europe.
________________________________________________
Actually, there are three European born HOFers, brothers Harry and George Wright from England and Tony Malone from Ireland.
I agree LathamJoe, but was there ever a better big game, money pitcher than Jack Morris? I know there’s no way to quantify it.
I understand that his abilities left him quickly after he turned 32, but from 1975 through 1986 there were few hitters more feared than Jim Rice. In that span he finished between first and 5th in the MVP voting 6 times. IMO, he was a dominant player in his era and he deserves to be in the Hall.
Hey guys, is bobcat legitimate? How long has he been posting?
I can agree with those that say Cano may be somewhat affected by Cabrera’s being traded, but, the one person he’ll really miss is Larry Bowa.
What do you think the odds are, assuming the bobcat/miller scoop is legit, that the yanks then get in on the japanese outfielder? i haven’t heard much about him since probably the middle of the season. is he still in play? not that great?
My inductees would be
Gossage
Rice
Morris
in 4TH place Mattingly,but I dont think he makes it.
When talking about the Hall of Fame, it will be interesting to see later on how many players that are currently active will eventually become Hall of Famers. We know that this year’s Yankees will have four definites- Jeter, A-Rod, Mo, and the Rocket.
I agree, Drive 4-5 Morris was a standout in World Series Games. But Blyleven wasn’t too shabby either when he got a chance in Post Season. Check out his stats when you get a chane.
J-Dawg,
Jeter’s questionable. What might keep him outside the pearly gates is that he’s petty and has horrible range.
I got ripped a few weeks ago,when it was rumored that the Twins would talk trade with the Yankees starting with R.Cano.
If it meant we could keep Hughes and A.Jax then I would give them :: Cano,Cabrera,Kennedy..but that is it.I would really like to keep the pitching.I alos would like to keep Cano,but you have to give up something to get something.
I try Gardner in CF…
J-Dawg, you can add Joe Torre to your list.
If it is really bobcat posting (who knows, based on what went on today) I believe he has been posting a while.
Never mind. You said players currently active
Hoffa:
Bobcat’s been around for a while, seems like a good citizen to me. His 4:25 pm post certainly reads pretty legit IMO. But, is he legit, an “insider”? Hey, I was one of the doubters (egg still on my face) when Miller dropped his A-Bomb on A-Rod so you can’t go by me. I will say, however, that all this wondering does make my baseball withdrawal a bit more tolerable.
I wouldn’t even respond if they asked for Cano. No Cano. No Joba. Ideally we get this done without sending Hughes.
Hoffa,
Where’ve you been? People have been looking for you for years.
Bobcat’s part of the Big 3. SJ44, Bobcat, Miller.
GreenBeret7- You’re right about Torre. I enjoy these Hall of Fame debates. And just to name a few other active pitchers besides Clemens, I’ll go with Glavine, the Big Unit, maybe Hoffman, and maybe John Smoltz among others. With the way that managers keep a close eye on pitchers these days, 260 or 270 wins might have to become the new 300, who knows?
I completely forgot Greg Maddux. Wow, that was a mistake on my part!
No Go for Robbie Cano
dat’s what i tink.
umm Santana?
or are do we mean if their career ended today?
It’s crazy how many people would give up Cano…
Listen I love our Pitching Prospects and yes, they’ve had some success albeit limited in the majors so far. Studies have show pitchers under the age of 26 are very prone to arm injuries (elbow) as their arms are still maturing. There are no guarantees.
Robby Cano is a top 3 2B, 24 years old and is improving year to year. How many 2b would you want over Cano? I can name one: Utley. There are others who could replace Cano and be a capable stop gap, but the disparity between Robbie and Utley to the rest who play 2b is DISPARAGING.
This is not even debatable.
Some of you are nuts.
http://www.overtimesports.tk/ This will be a sports forum and we are having a game called “Overtime Sports Mogul League” This is a game where you trade with other gm’s. There is no salalry cap. You Trade with people and we are having real life free agents. We will have 3 groups. You will get 25 million per year for all 3 groups. There is still teams is open. Than in April, we wiil take the teams you built and have like a fantasy baseball with points for each batting average, home runs and so on. Register and come on in and join the sports talk.
Thanks jen and murphydog. I agree murphydog, this hot stove talk certainly eases the pain a bit. Actually, I kind of enjoy all the anticipation and speculation. It’s a bit like being a kid at Christmas, waiting to see what presents Lil’ Stein and Cashman deliver. Ok, so that may be a bit of an overstatement, but I really do find this time of year fun in its own right.
I can give you this:
It’s boiling down. No Cano. A young pitcher; two young OF.
saucy- I was mostly talking about the older players and the veterans, but Santana could be blazing a trail toward the Hall of Fame. He has had four consecutive phenomenal years (other than this year’s W/L record) and doesn’t show any signs of slowing down. He could easily have eight to ten years left, giving him plenty of time to build his case.
Bobcat,
Please blink one if Hughes is included. Twice if he’s not included.
Thanks.
“1) Bashers don’t bother me, although I’ll never admit to being a moron. I will admit to being, at times, an arrogant SOB. I’m told it’s one of my redeeming qualities.”
Bobcat – I have always appreciated your contributions and had great respect for them. The statement above totally solidifed it for me, though. LOL Seriously. Anybody that is involved in any kind of business with an emphasis on client relationships and interpersonal communication should understand why I say that.
Thanks for the info.
mel:
That is not publishable. Use your imagination: if the Twins can get four players, they can sell it. If it’s four, it’s not going to be a little lower level guy, with volume winning out.
mel – hilarious.
Wolf:
Thanks.
Bobcat,
If you’re saying that we’re going with 3 guys, that means one of the 3 are gone. That makes me sad. I’m sorry I asked, but I’ll be prepared for it at least. lol. Hoping for IPK over Hughes. Minnesota’s at least marginally closer to LA than New York.
Wait what is going on? They have agreed to the players and its a Hughes/IPK and two outfielders? Where is this coming from?
Bobcat:
A. Hughes, Tabata, Jackson
or
B. Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson
A or B???
Bobcat, thanks a lot for the information. It would be neat to see Johan in pinstripes before Christmas. We can all sing that old Christmas tune- “Santana Claus Is Coming to Town.”
Mel, I’m alive and well in PA. I’m a long time reader of Pete’s work, but until recently have only causally perused the comments.
I would find it hard to believe that would could actually pull off the Santana deal without giving up someone that makes most of us a little uncomfortable.
Latham,
C. Kennedy, Melky, Jackson
They need a major league ready SP and outfielder. Kennedy has a higher innings cap and Melky qualifies as young, right? I can’t believe Hughes would be on any list exchanged. It might be part of the counter offer, but not on the initial list.
OOps!
A. is Hughes, CABRERA, Jackson
Gotta give up something to get something.
This is Johan Santana we are talking about. Not some NL slug who had one or two good years.
If Cash can make the deal without including Hughes, great.
If he can’t, and its a Hughes, Cabrera, with Jackson or Tabata as the third OF, so be it.
If the Twins would rather go Kennedy, Horne, Cabrera and either Jackson or Tabata, that’s also acceptable to me.
The Yankees have the RH pitching to absorb the loss of Hughes or Kennedy. Whichever guy isn’t traded between Jackson and Tabata becomes the OF of the future for the Yankees.
It also means Brett Gardner will have a chance to win the CF job next year. If he can’t do it, they put Damon back in center.
Either way you go, if it leads to acquiring Santana, the Yankees improve themselves TREMENDOUSLY, which is all that matters.
If it’s only 1 pitcher I can live with that even if it’s Joba. Tim Marchman had an excellent take on the situation in his column today. It’s an excellent read.
http://www.nysun.com/article/67008
Guys, “young pitcher” doesn’t necessarily mean “one of the 3″. I’m not saying it _doesn’t_ mean that it’s one of them, but The Yankee farm system has a lot of players that can be called “a young pitcher” that has value. You’ve got Horne, Marquez, Betances, Cox….just for starters.
mel:
It may be three and it may be four. The Twins have some other irons in the fire, some which have been reported accurately.
If you’re the Twins and you have a team that looks like:
C – Mauer
1B – Morneau
2B – Punto
SS – Bartlett
3B – Buscher
LF – Monroe
CF – Tyner
RF – Cuddyer
DH – Kubel
SP – Santana
SP – Liriano
SP – Garza
SP – Slowey
SP – Baker
and can turn it into:
C – Mauer
1B – Morneau
2B – Punto
SS – Bartlett
3B – Cuddyer
LF – Melky Cabrera
CF – Coco Crisp
RF – Delmon Young
DH – Kubel
SP – Liriano
SP – Garza
SP – Baler
SP – Bonser
SP – Perkins
I think you like Plan B better.
That’s what they are weighing. The fourth guy is another pitcher, which lowers the bar on the first level guy.
Joe – This is pure speculation on my part but I think one of the young OF bobcat is refering to is Melky.
Hoffa,
LOL. I was joking with you. Jimmy Hoffa? But good to know you’re alive and kicking.
Unlike Dice-K and the stupid postig system, Santana holds all the cards. If I were he, I’d pick my peferred team and go to the Twins and say “I’ll veto a trade to anyone but the [Yankees]“. Then’s I’d leak word out that this was my position. At that point, the Twins option is to trade him and get the best they can in a bilateral negotiation or hold him and get a draft pick. They would still do better than a draft pick but not as well as if they can run an auction between the Yankees, Sox, Dodgers, Angels etc.
By letting the Twins run the process, Santana allows them to maximize thier take of players since the “market” is what the other bidding teams are willing to offer, NOT what the wins are willing to accept. This will inevitably cost Santana money since it is more difficult to rationalize giving up young homegrown players when you still have to make the same financial commitment as if he were a free agent.
Mel:
I hate to see Hughes go, but I’d be shocked if the Twins accepted a combo of Kennedy/Melky and either one of Tabata or Jackson.
Kennedy, Horne, Melky, and Jackson (Tabata)
vs.
Hughes, Melky, and Jackson (Tabata)
or if I’m reading between your lines, then the young pitchers involved are very good but not MLB ready in Plan B. Crisp?
Slowey missing from plan B
Talking about a Santana trade is 1000x better than the rumor of two weeks ago, the rumored three-way deal that had the Yankees getting Ben Sheets. Santana is everything that Sheets is not, durable, a sure thing, and someone with that ability to go out every fifth day and completely dominate. He’s the best, bar none.
mel:
The Twins are discussing Slowey for Crisp and Garza for Young. This is a multi-headed monster Smith is dealing with.
Think about it. If he can pull all three of these trades off, it plays much better with his fan base (see how we’ve improved the club overall, blah, blah). And he’d be right.
Saucy,
Slowey for Crispy?
I would prefer to deal Horne and Gardner than Jackson. JMO
Bobcat- The rumor had been Delmon Young to the Twins for Matt Garza. I have not heard lately, have things changed?
As an aside, one of the funnier comments heard today was that the Yankees brought back C.J. Henry so they could include him in a trade for Santana (a la Abreu).
Prince, pitchers in general are prone to arm injuries. Once a pitcher hits his 30’s, people are constantly complaining he’s old and is an injury risk. I guess you’ve got that short window in the late 20’s where people don’t worry as much about a pitcher, but in general, they’re all a huge risk.
As for the willingness to include Cano, offense is easier to replace than pitching. The Yankees have consistently been at or near the very top of the list of best offenses the past several years while our pitching has sucked. We can take the hit on offense far easier than we can on pitching.
So the Twins are looking to possibly replace Monroe, Tyner, and Cuddyer with Melky, Crisp, and Young? Youth movement? That’s a good mix of defense and offense there. And cheap, too.
J-Dawg:
If we think this through from Bill Smith’s perspective, the more announcements made at one time (or close to it), the better.
By themselves, you probably wouldn’t be too happy with a meal that consisted of just cranberries, just buscuits, just stuffing, but put it all together and pour gravy over it and you rave about the cook.
Mel,
I got the joke and thought it was funny. Thanks for the shout out.
mel:
Cuddyer would move back to the infield, where he started. Monroe is not guaranteed a contract and can be non-tendered. Tyner is a AAA player.
Hoffa,
Haha, you got me.
The Garza deal for Young is very much in play.
The Rays want to get rid of Young and Garza is the best offer they have right now.
The problem is, the young GM of the Rays is not one who likes to make trades. He likes to talk trades.
If he can move past the talking stage and into the closing phase, perhaps these dominoes can begin to drop.
Bobcat,
So are you implying that the Twins announcing a number of signings at once means they will be willing to accept less from the Yankees and therefore we will not need to give up on of the big 3?
Bobcat- You’re absolutely right. Smith would also earn some credibility if he can get all of those ducks into a row.
Bobcat,
Thanks for the info. The Twins have always been resourceful, had an eye for talent, and willing to think outside the box so it’ll be interesting to see what transpires.
If you’re familiar with the Twins’ farm system, you know that their strength mirrors the Yankees – RHP. As SJ44 said earlier, it’s about how you use your chips. The Twins don’t need the Yankees to replace MLB-ready SP. They have their own. So they re-tool the farm system with numbers (A- level, as opposed to A+ level), save $13M in Santana’s salary, add four players at MiLB levels ($150K apiece) and promote from within at the big club. They can then use guys like Slowey and Garza to obtain pieces they don’t have themselves (position players) and can’t get elsewhere (Ellsbury).
I will say that Melky is on the table, but not neccessarily a part of the final deal. If the Twins do the other deals, they may opt to take more bodies from the Yankees, at lower levels.
Makes perfect sense if you think about it, and Bill Smith is to be commended if he pulls it off.
SJ44,
Why do the Rays want to get rid of Young? He’s had off-field issues but he’s a beast at the plate.
The Yankees don’t make moves predicated of what Boston or any other organization says, thinks, or does. The Yankees are their own team and do whay they need to do. With a more vibrant leadership in place, moves that should have been done in recent years are now taking place.
mel:
Tampa has soured on Young; his plate discipline is non-existant.
SJ44:
Sorry, I fielded your Q. I should have called for it.
Why would the Twins trade a 23 year old pitcher with Slowey’s potential for a $4mil no power, low on base percentage, weak throwing outfielder? If I were the Red Sox, I’d do that trade in a heartbeat.
This is a bit random, but I’ve often wondered what some of your jobs are (i.e. what work are you ignoring in order to blog)? I sometimes think about this as I sit at my desk…avoiding work.
Would love to see what Kevin Long could do with Young. The change in one year for Cano was eye-popping as far as plate discipline was concerned.
Mel,
Young is a tough guy to deal with off the field. Difficult with his teammates, horrible to members of the organization. He’s just a guy who isn’t a lot of fun to be with on a daily basis during the season.
The Rays have a lot of OF talent. They are short pitchers.
Their team is coming together.
They have Pena at first. Iwamura moving to second base, making room for Evan Longoria, their stud prospect, at third.
They have Crawford in left, Upton in center and can put Baldelli in right.
All good guys on and off the field.
If they can turn Young into Garza and keep Kazmir and Shields healthy, they have the start of something in Tampa.
bobcat,
Certainly like your theory. Hope it pans out.
If the Red Sox don’t want or aren’t willing to give up Bucholtz and or Ellsbury than there is absolutely no reason for the Yankees to be giving them Hughes.
I really think Santana can be had for Kennedy,Melky,McCutchen,Gardner
J-Dawg
November 27th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
GreenBeret7- You’re right about Torre. I enjoy these Hall of Fame debates. And just to name a few other active pitchers besides Clemens, I’ll go with Glavine, the Big Unit, maybe Hoffman, and maybe John Smoltz among others. With the way that managers keep a close eye on pitchers these days, 260 or 270 wins might have to become the new 300, who knows?
________________________________________________________
HOFers: Sure Bets, Fringe And Questions
Frank Thomas, Biggio, Ramirez, Omar Vizquel, Griffey,Jr., Randy Johnson…sure bets
Jeff Kent, Mussina, Schilling, Thome, Guerrero, Pedro Martinez, Delgado…on the fringe
Bonds, Sheffield, Sosa….questions/wait and see
Pedro Martinez
1st ballot
No worries bobcat. We are all on the same team here.
Drive,
The Twins would do that deal because they need a CF and Crisp’s salary fits into their budget.
They have a lot of pitching. They will add more if they do these deals. They don’t have a CF in their system who is ready for the majors.
Drive:
The reality is that the Bostons are f’ing up a few parts of this process. They want Slowey. They don’t want Crisp. Twins need OF. Twins don’t want to move Slowey. Twins don’t want to trade Slowey, so it’s a trade-off internally.
They are debating:
1) Are they better off with Melky and lower level SP from NY and keeping Slowey?
2) Or do they move Slowey or Bonser or Cali for Crisp, or do they even need Crisp?
3) The important piece for them here is actually the Garza/Young deal. Everything else plays from there.
The pieces they would want from NYY depend on what they get elsewhere.
That’s why this thing, while it has legs, may sit for awhile, or run fast. Eat a light lunch, you may have to move quickly.
SJ44,
That makes sense. Sometimes you wonder what some of the “bad apples” would be like if they went to stronger organizations with good leadership. Young may be destined to be the Lofton or Sheffield of his generation, huh?
Can’t believe Pena had the breakout year he had right after he left the Yankees.
Can you imagine what their staff would be like if they straightened out Jackson?
“This is a bit random, but I’ve often wondered what some of your jobs are (i.e. what work are you ignoring in order to blog)? I sometimes think about this as I sit at my desk…avoiding work.”
i write computer programs that take a long time to run. i read this blog and comment while i’m waiting on a program.
other times, i’m slacking off like a lot of you probably are.
Should the Twins do the deals that net them an outfield of Crisp, Melky and Young plus what arms they get from the Yankees in a Santana deal, they’ll attempt to sell seats in their new venue by promoting the Twins as the next great team even with the loss of Santana.
Whatever floats their boat …
SJ44,
I think that deal is a steal for the Red Sox, dont you?
Thanks for the clarification Bobcat. Our responses crossed in cyberland lol.
Hoffa:
It’s not my theory. I’m giving you THEIR theory.
Jax:
Don’t give up what you don’t have to. This thing is happening on many, many levels and is complicated. There are, much like A-Rod’s deal, several very high levels of suits involved, from the Commissioner’s Office to the Players’ Union to Santana’s financial team to the beancounters in both backrooms.
I’ve given you a lot today; not sure I can go more just now. Think it through on as deep a level as you can, and it makes sense.
You work with what you have. The Twins don’t have the Yankees annual revenues to spike their payroll.
They also have an owner, while very wealthy, is not one to put his own money into the team.
In other words, they can only add payroll based on their annual team revenues. That means, they can’t re-sign guys like Santana or Hunter, nor see a 100 million payroll in their current home.
When you are competing with Detroit and the White Sox, two big spending teams, and the Indians, a very smart team, you need to be able to juggle a lot of balls to put your team together and be competitive.
For the Twins, it isn’t as simple as dealing Santana. Its doing other things to keep the talent flow coming from within their organization.
Its the only way they can remain competitive.
Boy, that last post sure sounded like I had my “arrogant SOB” pants on. Not intended.
Green Beret7:
I think Pedro is a lock for the HOF.
Also, if you think Thome is on the fringe, then like Peter, you no longer think 500 Hrs guarantees induction.
On that same note, should Biggio be automatic due to 3000 hits?
I’m not so sure.
If we trade melky and jackson. Whos are future center fielder? Gardner? I would prefer to give them more arms.(I know they dont need them) Im not excited about losing both.
Hoffa:
You asked, so I’ll give you this much:
I work for a firm that does independent financial consulting to the MLB teams and their MiLB affiliates, mostly in the areas of personnel costs and long-range budgeting and planning.
So, yes, I see many of these trades before they hit the streets. We only can discuss information that we are cleared to discuss.
It’s a little slow right now, because we’ve done a lot of the prep work for next week’s meetings. However, we have to be able to react to the next phone call, email, whatever with an accurate evaluation of the costs of potential trades, at all levels of an organization.
Yes, it’s very interesting and a 24/7/365 business anymore.
That’s why I can only give you what I can give you. We all have NDA’s (non-disclosure agreements) that bar data being released.
Tommy, I put Thome in the fringe area, because he’s not quite there, but, also I have questions of my own about him and steroids, but, not as many questions as I do about the last group.
SJ 44 :
I’m in agreement with your thoughts with the Rays. Due in no small part to their continuous last place standing, they manage to develop good young talent but when they’re on the brink of seeing a larger payroll looming, they get gun shy about a true committment to winning. If the ownership ever decides to loosen the purse strings, they could be a force to be taken seriously. The next test comes with Scott Kazmir and Carlos Pena and their arbitration cases.
SoS27…The Angels are talking about moving Matthews and his 4 year, 40 million dollar contract. They need a couple of things..left handed power and utility infielder. NYY makes a swap and sends Alberto Gonzales and Giambi with his 1 year 26 million dollar contract.
In a year..2 at the most, either Jackson or Tabata will be ready to play in the show. At that time, NYY moves Matthews along with some cash or, keeps him as a platoon/backup.
Hey, wait a minute. The Twins are talking to the Rays about Young?
I smell a 3-way where the Yankees end up with Santana and Kazmir….but give up everyone who they’ve been stockpiling!
GreenBeret:
Mathews is George Mitchell’s new poster boy. He had one good year that coincided with his contract year and a few other things. Won’t happen.
Thurman:
Don’t get greedy. Kazmir isn’t going anywhere.
Bobcat and SJ44,
I’ve learned a lot by following along today. Thanks for all the information.
Brady Anderson hit 49 homeruns ONCE
cough cough had a little help! lol
Bobcat,
Thanks for the info and for playing along. Your one blink became REM, but it’s been fun. Hope we didn’t put you on the spot.
Bobcat, I knew about the speculation, but, I’d seriously doubt much comes of it. He still supplies great defense, some speed, some power and decent run production in the bottom third of the order. Both teams are taking a gamble. One problem for another.
Bobcat – Sounds like a fascinating line of work. I much enjoyed reading your input while at “work” this afternoon.
GreenBeret-That sounds good and all but…
1.Would they take on all of Giambi’s contract?
2.Didnt they want to free up the d.h. possition for Vlad?
3.Isnt Tabata slated to play right field?
If we can rid ourselves of Giambi’s final year that would free up the d.h. roll for Matsui. If traded, hope Giambi doesnt have contract year type numbers.
Remember, Jose Tabata started out as a CF. I still have that throw he made in my head at the ‘06 Futures Game. It was a laser.
I may be in the minority but, I think he can play CF.
I hope they don’t have to include Jackson in any trade. However, if they do, I wouldn’t mind seeing Tabata in CF in Trenton next season to see what he can do at the position.
Gary Matthews Jr? Interesting thought. I don’t buy the Angels keeping him and paying 29 million bucks for 2 CF’s.
A trade for Matthews wouldn’t involve much (in terms of players) because the Angels would be shedding payroll.
It could be something to watch if the Yankees are in need of a CF this winter.
I don’t think they will sign Aaron Rowand. Not unless he drops his price a great deal.
Todd:
This is the fun part of the business. We get to do it all day (and night, sometimes) and get paid for it. The compliance part isn’t any fun, but you can’t have it all.
If you think like some of the GMs, it’s fairly uncomplicated. Look at the Twins’ depth chart
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/.....-chart/MIN
It’s ugly. They have need for two OF and two IF. What do they have an excess of? SP. So they parlay SP into as much as they can, given the contractual constraints (no-trade, expensive vs. cheap) and do what they can to fill the holes.
The trades we’ve talked about today make perfect sense. In fact, to do anything less, would be foolhardy. The Twins proved last year that they can’t contend with one stud SP and no hitting. Think Lefty Carlton….
Bobcat, thanks for your insight. Before I knew what your job was I was often amazed how many of your thoughts have come to fruition, as well as appreciative of your insight.I don’t often respond on here bacause of of some people’s need to be smarter and more correct than others, but but you are one of the posters i enjoy reading.
Mike Camaron for a year. Or Jones plays for a 1 year contract to salvage a dissapointing 07.
Bobcat -
Thanks for all the information. It’s really quite fascinating and I’d give anything to be that fly on the wall, so to speak. Whatever this deal ends up being, if it even comes to fruition, I certainly appreciate your opening the window a bit on the creativity that goes on behind the scenes.
Frankly, I am surprised you can give as much info as you did. Still, I suppose if you leave out enough specifics, it allows for great discussion with floating names without actually giving it away.
Again, thanks.
SJ44, Bobcat- Thanks a lot for the information. Those were some good posts from you guys, just like always.
Pedro is a lock. Arguably, his peak was the greatest even when adjusted for league offense. Check out this 7-year run from 1997-2003. ERA+: 219, 163, 243, 291, 189, 202, 210.
Sandy Koufax was the “peak-only” HoFer if ever there was one (only started 314 games in a 12-year career) and his didn’t come close to this. His best strecth was 61-66, with ERA+ of: 123, 141, 159, 187, 160, 190. Pedro burned considerably brighter and longer. His career ERA+ of 161 is better than all but two of Koufax’s best years.
Doreen,
It’s like logic puzzles, huh? Maybe before big deals are announced Bobcat can give clues and make it a game. lol.
Thanks bobcat,
It reminds me of that present under the tree that you want to rip open before midnight. Do you forsee this happening before next weeks winter meetings? Will we have our presents before christmas?
I haven’t disclosed any names of players that haven’t already been offered in the media. I can tell you when deals between teams have legs, and in general terms. You’re all smart enough to figure out the pieces if I talk in “levels”.
What I CAN’T do is disclose a team’s specific trade proposals. Once it’s out, however it gets out, it’s fair game. And remember, nothing gets out, from ANY team, unless it’s supposed to get out.
My best advice to fans of the “hot stove” is to step back and try to play the chess game as if you were a GM; that is, don’t be emotional about any deal and think outside the box. That’s how the smaller market teams survive and actually prosper: they get creative, whether it be moving Michael Cuddyer back to the IF, or shifting the pieces in some other way.
I’ll report back when I can. The next week or so will be very interesting. And don’t forget what I’ve said about Cashman… he never rests, I can tell you that.
Fascinating discussion! It’ll be interesting to see what shakes out.
SoS27, I don’t think Guerrero’s ready to DH just yet. Possibly Anderson once in a while. As far as the contracts go, the Angels have a one time cash layout 21 mil in salary and a 5 mil buyout if they don’t exercise the option. I was just trying to piece in a center fielder and yesterday, one of the articles said the angels may try to move his contract because of Hunter’s 90 mil contract. NYY’s other option is bringing Corey Patterson in to play center.
Hey Latham Joe,
saw your post yesterday on Albany Colonie yanks. man what a blas from the past,lol!
Bobcat -
Without a doubt Brian Cashman is as stealth as it gets. His frequent flyer miles are the envy of many. He’ll never be accused of being a sit back baseball executive.
IF the Twins are looking for A-level SP, that would indicate that Joba, Hughes and IPK are safe. Maybe even Horne. It would point more towards someone like Garcia, Kontos, Chigges, Betances…and maybe someone we haven’t even heard of yet (hard to believe someone would escape notice of The Blog…).
And looking at Gary Matthews to theoretically replace Melky sounds interesting – if he isn’t suspended for PEDs.
mel -
I love that idea!!!!
pete just posted on front page again guys
Pete – While I agree that Goose should get into the HOF; why would you vote for Jim Rice yet neglect Andre Dawson; one of the finest all around players of his generation?
Dawson has more career HR than Rice (438/382); and more RBI (1591/1451). Dawson was also a superior baserunner and light years ahead of Rice as an outfielder. To cast a vote for Jim Rice while overlooking Andre Dawson would be a gross injustice.
Bobcat & SJ44-
Just caught with the last couple of hours on the blog, it’s been really compelling listening to you both. I, as well as my fellow bloggers really appreciate what you both can offer, true insight into being a GM. Thanks!
Here, here Bobcat & SJ44 tremendous job and thanks for the insight! Although detailed info, you’ve done a great job keeping it as plain vanilla as possible.
Ted-
Good points, but wasDawson “feared” as much as Rice in his hey day. That is the kind of nonsense that sportswriters throw around when making bad votes. The biggest fear Rice shoudl instill is that of making an out (or two) by Sox fans. Even at his peak the guy was an out machine: .300-ish BA, no walks and piles of DPs. In fact, he led the league in Outs twice and was 4th in his 1978 MVP season. Not something you tend to see from an elite 3/4 hole hitter.
Andre Dawson was kind of an out machine himself with a career OBP of .323. No thanks to either one.
Tim Raines is the greatest leadoff hitter in the history of the National League. His exclusion would be the worst omission in HOF annals. You really need to look closer at his credentials Peter. He’s miles better than Brock.
Players deserving of the Hall of Fame who were active in 2007:
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman
Mike Piazza
Ivan Rodriguez
Jorge Posada
Albert Pujols (already)
Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
Craig Biggio
Jeff Kent
Chipper Jones
Alex Rodriguez
Derek Jeter
Barry Bonds
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey, Jr.
Jim Edmonds
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
Vladimir Guerrero
As you can see, I favor a pretty large Hall. I’m also certain that I missed some players, and I could easily entertain arguments about some of these players and some who aren’t on the list.
As for how I would vote on the ballot this year, if I could:
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Alan Trammell
Tim Raines
Mark McGwire
I could entertain arguments in favor of Lee Smith and Andre Dawson.
Lee Smith, Goose Gossage and JIM RICE.
The first 2 are among the most dominant relievers of all time, and my website has all the reasons why I chose Jim Rice.
To me, guys like Jack Morris, Trammell, Dawson were very good players for a very long time, but were never really dominant.
My votes:
Goose Gossage
Rock Raines
Bert Blyleven (played on some miserable teams!)
I am surprised by the lack of support for Mark McGuire. I would vote for him in a future year. By that time it will be obvious how many others, that will be enshrined in the Hall, took steroids as well.
Caspian…good framework to work from but you are missing one player.
Ichiro Suzuki. I bet he nails 3000 hits before he retires!
Blyleven: There is enough analysis now to make it conclusive that he belongs
in the HOF.
Gossage: Once closers get in, Gossage should be a lock.
Raines: Criminally underrated. A brilliant player.
McGwire: It is not just the home runs. He is a HOF offensive player
and good enough defensively as well. A .394 lifetime OBP
.588 Slugging with an OPS of .982 which is an OPS+ of 162!
He had an OPS+ over 200 3 times and only in his first season
was it below 100 for the 12 time all-star.
Blyleven
Gossage
Maybe Dawson
Not yet McGwire. (a few more lashes)
Rice was my favorite player as a kid, but I’ve long felt he fell short of HOF. He didn’t play long enough and his last few years were blah.
Raines played long enough, 23 years, but he was really mediocre in his final 10, and in his final 5 with the Yankees, he didn’t even play all that much.
I could be pursuaded to vote for Tommy John, if for no other reason than for being the guinea pig for the surgery that bears his name.
GreenBeret7 November 27th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Max Fischer
November 27th, 2007 at 10:53 am
If Blyleven is elected he will become the only player in the Hall who was born in Europe.
________________________________________________
Actually, there are three European born HOFers, brothers Harry and George Wright from England and Tony Malone from Ireland.
Damn those 19th-century players!! I forgot about the hapless Wright brothers, polluters of all things golden. But who is this Tony Malone you speak of? I cannot find him anywhere.
The man’s name is Tony Mullane. He is not in the Hall of Fame despite 284 wins.
http://www.baseball-reference......to01.shtml
Here is a comparison. Pitcher A is being advocated by some for the HOF.
Pitcher A. 254 career wins. 3.90 ERA. 162 game average 16-11, 3.90, WHIP 1.296, ERA+ 105, 2478 K, 1390 walks, 3824 IP, 7x top 10 for CYA, 549 g, 527 as a starter
Pitcher B. 250 career wins. 3.70 ERA, 162 game average 16-9, 3.70, WHIP 1.190, ERA+ 122, 2663 K, 764 walks. 3362 IP, 8x top 10 for CYA 503 g, 502 as a starter.
Hmmm. Pitcher B has almost the same amount of wins in 460 some less IP and 46 less games. He has a better WHIP, lower ERA, better ERA+, more Ks, less walks.
This isn’t to advocate one over the other, but just to make a point. Pitcher A is Jack Morris. Pitcher B is Mike Mussina. One gets a lot of HOF talk. The other?
I find it hard to believe that people would vote for Jim Rice, Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven…….c’mon. These guys, along with most of the list, belong in the “Hall of very good”
i might give you Goose, but thats about it
and for SHAMUS who said…
It looked like Rice was in Pompei, running with the Bulls…. And he’s supposed to be an icon and legend in Red Sox Nation?
were these bulls running from liquid hot magma?????(placing pinky next to lip)
Mike Mussina and Jack Morris should get into the Hall of Fame. Jim Rice should have been there a long time ago. If you don’t put those guys in, then I suggest you take out Phil Rizzuto, Orlando Cepeda (good, but not Hall of Fame), Tony Perez, etc. What you are looking at for the guys I just mentioned was, at least for Rizzuto and Perez, was the team they played on. I call it the Michael Irvin effect. No way he is an NFL hall of famer, but a product of his team. Blyleven, if he played for any other team, would have easily eclipsed 300 wins. If he doesn’t get in, then you have to kick out Don Sutton and Phil Niekro, among others. Also, Morris should get in if you are going to put Pedro Martinez into the hall, which is almost a certainty. Also, if Andy Pettite eventually gets in, then Jack Morris should automatically be in. His Post season glory is impeccable and comparable to fellow stud John Smoltz.
I see a few other comments previous to mine of note. Santana is the best available, maybe the best overall. If he plays for Boston or New York, he wins 25 games. I watched him pitch 3 starts in a row, allowed 3 runs or less and pitched 7+ innings and actually lost 2 of those 3. The Twins, as a general rule, cannot hit high caliber pitching, just ask Sabathia, who owned them all year, and was opposed by, guess who, Santana, who did allow a ton of home runs, though most were solo shots. Also, on a list of guys getting into the hall that were active last season, Chipper Jones was not mentioned, nor was Tom Glavine, both are automatic, along with Ivan Rodriguez, Craig Biggio, Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr., Roger Clemens,Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Omar Vizquel, Jorge Posada (oh Yes), Mariano Rivera, Vlad Guerrero, Greg Maddux, Trevor Hoffman, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Jeff Kent, Billy Wagner (outside shot), John Smoltz, Curt Schilling (but maybe not because Jack Morris isn’t in the hall), Gary Sheffield, and Ichiro will get in if he plays 2 more years.