Hall of Fame voting gets underway
-
- November
- 27
The Hall of Fame ballots went out this week to the 575 writers who have been members of the BBWAA for 10 years. The results will be announced on Jan. 8. A player must be on 75 percent of the ballots to gain induction.
Voters can select up to 10 players or nobody at all.
How are players evaluated? Here is what the BBWAA rule says:
Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
The ballot:
Brady Anderson
Harold Baines
Rod Beck
Bert Blyleven
Dave Concepcion
Andre Dawson
Shawon Dunston
Chuck Finley
Travis Fryman
Rich “Goose” Gossage
Tommy John
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Don Mattingly
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Robb Nen
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Jose Rijo
Lee Smith
Todd Stottlemyre
Alan Trammell
I have three years left before I am eligible to vote. If I had a vote this season, I would select these players:
Goose Gossage
Jack Morris
Jim Rice
And that’s it. I wavered on Lee Smith. But I plan to be conservative with my selections once I get to vote and I don’t plan on making any statistical plateau such as 500 home runs an “automatic” reason to pick somebody. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that certain players need to wait to get in. You’re either a Hall of Famer or not.
As for Mark McGwire, I’m not sure he would get my vote regardless of his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs. But the rule does mention integrity, sportsmanship and character.
Who would you select?
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, November 27th, 2007 at 9:13 am by Peter Abraham.
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i agree Pete, let’s the voter’s feel the same way
Good list. I wonder if Mattingly gets in.
Why not Raines, Pete?
I would go with Goose for certain and possibly Rock Raines and Andre Dawson. Jack Morris was a terrific big-game pitcher with fire in his eyes and icewater in his veins. That ERA is just a bit too high for me, though.
I would vote for:
Goose Gossage
Jim Rice
Andre Dawson
Tommy John
Don Mattingly
Bert Blyleven
Gossage IMHO the best reliever in history until Eck (and then Mo, and now third behind only them).
Rice scared the bejeebus outta me as a Yankee fan for over a decade. He’s a Hall of Famer to me.
Andre Dawson was just awesome to watch. If someone who’s a compiler like Eddie Murray or Don Sutton can get in for numbers, why not a guy who to me was better than a Murray?
Tommy John. Look at the man’s career, his number of wins. The fact that he fell like 13 wins short of 300 is the only thing keeping him out? Come on.
Don Mattingly. If Kirby Puckett is in, and Donnie baseball was just as classy a guy and has just about the same career totals as well as more Gold Gloves and an MVP, he should be in. It’s unfair that he’s not.
Bert. See Tommy.
Brady Anderson.
…clearly i wasn’t serious.
My ballot:
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Goose Gossage
Blyleven is long overdue
If we ignore character/sportsmanship issues, McGwire absolutely deserves HOF status. He was one of the best hitters in baseball for most of his career.
Raines is also more than deserving.
pete -
great calls…all three mentioned were dominant in their playing career.
But Donnie deserves the call and if the sportswriters never vote him in the veterans will…as it relates to the hall of fame definition, they should have a picture of donnie baseball in there.
Gossage, Tommy John (anyone with career-saving surgery named for him just has to be in!), Andre Dawson and Jim Rice. In a perfect world, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.
tim raines. most deserving
Rice is such a jerk… I hope he gets into the HOF, maybe it will cause him to be nicer to 10 year old kids seeking his autograph on Lansdowne Street.
No kidding, last summer, was at a Sox game at Fenway to see Dice-K pitch (they were free tickets, alright!!!) and before the game, Tom Caron (The Sox’ Mike Kay) and Jim Rice were on their little NESN set next to the hot dog stands.
The National Anthem started, and I was still outside getting in my last cigarette. As Tom Caron and Rice got down from the stage and began to cut through the crowd, Rice was knocking KIDS out of the way as they asked for his autograph!
Freaking Tom Caron signed more notebooks than Jim Rice, bitter old bas-tahd !
It looked like Rice was in Pompei, running with the Bulls…. And he’s supposed to be an icon and legend in Red Sox Nation?
Get him in there…cheer him up…
Bert Blyleven should go in along with Goose Gossage Jack Morris and Jim Rice
You don’t deserve a vote after leaving me off of your ballot.
Goose Gossage
Bert Blyleven
Tim Raines
Tim, as a warning, Pete doesn’t like it when commenters pose as real life people.
If Tim Raines was really on Pete’s blog at 9:43 AM EST on a Tuesday to argue with a bunch of blog addicts like us over whether or not Pete should vote for him, I’ll wear a Red Sox hat for the next month!
My votes: Rice, Gossage, Trammel
remember folks, Brady Anderson did hit 50 home runs in a season once….
Oh God - here comes the annual “get Jim Rice in the HOF” media blitz from the Red Sox and their lackeys in the media. Rice was a very mediocre hitter away from Fenway Park. He was never close to getting in before it became fashionable to root for the Red Sox.
It’s funny, he was despised when he played in Boston and now and now the bandwagon brigade of RS fans all of a sudden love the guy.
Raines should get in. Albert Belle deserves to get in before Rice.
Let’s be realistic, EVERYBODY used performance enhancing and pain killing drugs. The only difference is whether they use them systemically like B. Bonds or locally like C. Shilling and which ones they use.
Also vote the guys on what they did, on on how they kiss-up to the press.
I’ll admit I don’t know some of the people of the list so I’m making some what bias choices, if I had more time I would go look up their stats and history.
Andre Dawson
Jack Morris
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Alan Trammell
Also not to take away anything from your job but why does major league baseball let the MEDIA make so many of its big decisions? (I don’t follow the other pro sports as much so I’m not sure how they do it).
Pete,
I think you’re approach is sound, but take a close look at Blyleven and Morris. Blyleven won more games, pitched over 1000 more innings, and had an ERA more than half a run better than Morris. Morris had a few big moments, but Blyleven was 4-1, 2.47 ERA in the few postseason chances he got in a career of terrible teams.
Fred
I would never vote for McGwire, but I think that he always has a chance. Integrity of the game and character are major issues, but Gaylord Perry is still in the Hall of Fame, and it’s not a secret that he used the spitball. I know that it is obviously comparing two totally different things with the spitball and performance-enhancing drugs, but they both jeopardize the integriy of the game. It’s one time when I am glad that I will never have a Hall of Fame vote.
Brady Anderson gets my vote solely based on his long-term relationship with tennis babe Amanda Coetzer.
Seriously, please put Blyleven in, he obviously deserves it: 5th in career K’s and 15th in career RSAA, it’s outrageous that he’s not in…plus he is on the verge of being a broken man.
Good choices. I hope g00se gets in finally… this is his last year isn’t it?
Rice? I guess that makes sense if you only saw him in Fenway…
My list: Goose, Raines, Bert, Tramell.
I would go with Raines, Rice, Dawson, Gossage, and Blyleven. Morris simply didn’t have the overall #s for as long as he pitched in my opinion.
Knoblauch made some hall of fame throwing errors.
Rice, Gossage, Mattingly.
why is brady anderson on this list?
Jim Rice’s career line away from Fenway Park:
.277/.330/.459
Hall of Famer? Please.
Blyleven (long overdue)
Gossage (miles ahead of Sutter)
McGwire (he hit 49 HRs as a skinny rookie)
Trammel (one of the best all-time at his position)
Raines (miles ahead of Brock)
I’m torn on Rice, Dawson and Murphy. Morris is seriously overrated and there’s no rational reason for including him and excluding Blyleven who was clearly a superior pitcher.
Goose, Raines, Rice, & Kaat should get voted in by the HOF committee.
Reading over the comments, I realize I forget Albert Belle. If not for his injury, he likely would have been a shoo-in. Not a nice guy, but his peak was way better than Kirby Puckett’s.
Blyleven
Gossage
Rice
Trammell
IMHO: Morris and Rice are overrated
I am still shocked that Gossage is not in the HOF.
All those situations where he came in with the bases loaded and got the job done. Those were really pressure situations back in the day.
Blyleven, Raines, Gossage
I am of the opinion, that if you have to think about a players qaulifications to enter the HOF, then he does not belong. Jim Rice does not belong. Look at his numbers away from Fenway. Look at his defense. He was a great player for 6 years. Thats it. Very nice career, but not HOF worthy.
Raines was a very good player. But after the first 8 years of his career, he was nothing special for the next 15 or so. He had a good 97 season with the Yanks.
Pitchers are difficult because you have to adjust for parks and run spport, etc. Blyleven is somebody I would do way more research on if I had a vote. But for starters, here is my first evaluation: if he was starting against your team in a pennant race game, did you think “Oh, crap” or “Hey, we have a shot.”
Morris was the former, Blyleven the latter.
Love HoF debates by the way. Seperates the good fans from the phonies.
Look at Jim Rice’s total bases over a span of time. The guy mashed. Being a jerk (which he was and still is) should not keep him out.
Blyleven is much more deserving than Jack Morris.
Goose, I think this might be the year he will get in. Since it is not a very strong class.
Do you think Goose will finally get in?
Bert Blyleven (easily)
Rich “Goose” Gossage (easily. that Sutter got in first is unconscionable)
Mark McGwire (hold your nose and accept that he was a product of his era)
Tim Raines (yes. don’t punish him because he wasn’t Rickey. Rickey be Rickey, and nobody else be close, but the Rock was still a great ballplayer)
Alan Trammell (easily)
Jim Rice shouldn’t be elected, period. I’ll laugh to keep from crying when he gets wrongfully enshrined while leaving Raines out in the cold.
I’m all for Tommy John getting in the Hall. Here’s a guy with 285 career wins and many of those with not-so-good teams and taking the better part of 2 seasons away from his career for a then unheard of surgery since named after him. Since then there’s been many careers saved. Bert Blyleven is another pitcher that never got his due. With nearly 4,000 strikeouts in his career, he’s still on the outside looking in.
Today there’s occasional talk of Schilling one day gaining admission to the Hall. Pfffft !!! . He hasn’t put up anything near the numbers that Tommy John or Bert Blyleven did. A bloody sock and big mouth are his claim to fame.
Pete,
Re your “Oh, crap”/“Hey, we have a shot” test, Billy Ripken had a great comment on XM yesterday about Goose Gossage. He basically suggested a similar test and then said anyone who wasn’t voting for Goose had never stood in against him….
Fred
Off topic: Sean Taylor has died after being shot. Thoughts and prayers are with his family and friends.
On topic: I go for Goose. I’m not familiar enough with Rice or Morris to make an informed decision.
I do not vote for McGwire.
Player A:
CF
4 gold gloves
2336 hits
125 OPS+
Player B:
LF
0 gold gloves
2452 hits
128 OPS+
The OPS+ puts them into a little more context.
none of them
Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Cobb, Ryan, Koufax, Feller = HOFers
Gossage, Rice, Morris, Blyleven = very good players
Hey Pete,
Just wondering what your thoughts are on this article. It’s about a trainer who tried to warn the leave in the mid 80’s about steroids. Would that change your votes in any way? What about greenies? It’s been well documented that they have been in the league since WW2. Are steroids and amphetamines in different categories?
Link:http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071127/SPORTS/711270344/1002/SPORTS
What would Rice have hit if he did not play in Fenway (about 40 points lower in BA and 90 in slugging). His failure to hustle on Dwight Evans double in Game 6 may have cost the red sox the 1986 World series although Rice did hystle the majority of the time.
As far as Jack Morris being this great, dominating pitcher, that’s not what Rick Dempsey told Larry King in 1984 (which caused a big stink). Dempsey noted he was off to a hot start but would have a 10 game stretch with a mediocre 4.50 era. Which he did shortly after.
Things which people seem to have forgotten are Raines’s cocaine addiction (he wouldn’t slide into bases in the early 1980s because he had cocaine in his pants) and Morris being ripped as “greedy and disloyal” for leaving Minnesota for Toronto after 1991.
I’m at the point were I don’t really care who gets into Cooperstown. I have my own opinions which like that old-time religion are good enough for me.
What’s hurting Blyleven’s candidacy is the fact that he was only on two All-Star teams in all of the years that he played. He also never won a Cy Young and was only in the top 3 in the voting twice. I am pretty sure that at least some of the voters put a lot of stock into All-Star appearances and how many times a player received Cy Young and MVP votes.
Player A:
CF
4 gold gloves
2336 hits
1067 walks
125 OPS+
Player B:
LF
0 gold gloves
2452 hits
670 walks
128 OPS+
The OPS+ puts them into a little more context.
Player A is Bernie
Player B is Rice
Pete, just look at Bert’s early days in Minny, when his team’s total lack of run support turned what are one of the most dominant four-year spans by a pitcher into virtually .500 ball. Seriously. He was insane. It’s a travesty he isn’t in.
Crime they’re not in:
Bert
Goose
Deserving:
Rock
Trammell
Solid arguments can be made for:
Rice
Belle
Big Mac
Morris just isn’t there. Yes, he had his big story games, but he didn’t do enough for his whole career. And the whole “pitch to the score” thing people like to say about him was debunked handily by the folks at BP.
Jim Rice was far less of a hitter away from Fenway Park. It’s not even close.
Rice had 75 more AB’s on the road than at home. Yet on the road he scored 100 less runs, had 100 less hits, 50 less doubles, 7 less triples, 35 less HR’s, over 100 less RBI, 25 less walks, 40 more strikeouts, batted 50 points less, 40 point lower OBP, 90 point lower SLG, over a 100 point differential in OPS, and his BABIP on the road was 50 points lower. Which means he used the wall to his advantage.
I’m sorry but that’s not hall of fame material to me. Only a jaded NE based sportswriter would even consider Rice to be more hall of fame worthy than Raines when you look at the overall career numbers.
Rice and Goose should be no brainers. Both should have been in a long time ago.
If Jack Morris pitched for the Yankees or Red Sox, his big game heroics would be the subject of numerous books. Best big game pitcher of his era, IMO.
The high ERA? A lot of that is because he pitched deep into games. If he was on a 100 pitch count, like today’s pitchers, and had the benefit of deep bullpens, his ERA would likely be lower.
I would vote Morris in this year.
The rest? I am like Pete. I look at a guy and I say, “is he a HOF or not”? I just don’t see Raines and Blyleven as HOF.
Its more than just stats. For example, Rafael Palmeiro had stats but I don’t see him as a HOF and it has nothing to do with the steroid stuff. I just don’t think he was that type of player.
Donnie? If he played longer, he’s in. Unfortunately, he didn’t play long enough (and was healthy enough) to be a Hall of Famer.
Its a shame but, its why its so tough to get into the Hall of Fame.
Rice’s career numbers away from Fenway Park
.277/.330/.459 - hardly HOF worthy.
He was a fine player, certainly a member of the Hall of Very Good but he’s just not worthy or Cooperstown. If he played for the Brewers or Astros, he’d barely get a mention. He wasn’t a HOFer when he retired (he’s been eligible for what 12 years or so?) and he isn’t one now.
Bert Blyleven is by FAR the most deserving non-Hall of Famer. There has been zero compelling arguments made against his candidacy. I have no connection to him at all, never rooted for the Twins, and his career was 10 years old by the time I was born. But it has bothered me for as long as I’ve been an intense baseball fan that the man hasn’t been elected.
Gossage obviously deserved it more than Sutter, so it only seems fair that he belongs in there.
McGwire certainly deserves to be a Hall of Famer based on his stats, he was an extremely dominant hitter, and considering the era in which he played, he was elite among his peers.
Goose
Jim Rice
Bert Blyleven
Rice is a product of Fenway Park.
Blylevin, Gossage, Dawson, and then Raines, McGuire, Jack Morris the following year.
Lee Smith. Of course.
Goose Gossage. Of course.
Jim Rice. Of course. The guy crushed the ball.
Bert Blyleven. On the fence but probably. His teams often weren’t great so his some of stats might have been even a little better.
Tommy John. On the fence but probably not. He’s one of those ‘almost’ guys who had a real good career but a couple monster years would have put him over the top. I know I’ll get grilled for saying Blyleven but not John, but so be it. It’s my vote, and its just an unofficial one.
Donnie Baseball. On the fence, but probably. Boggs got in (deservedly so) even finishing with a handful of declining years and so should Donnie.
Big Mac. Torn between homers & ‘roids, but probably not just because of the ‘roids. Too bad, I liked him too.
I would absolutely make a push for Pete Rose being voted in as a player but not as a manager. Maybe the price he’d pay might have to be to have the reason for his ban be noted on his plaque.
As a side attraction I always like to pay attention to how many write-in votes that Pete Rose gets. No matter what happens, he will probably get at least one write-in vote from now until Kingdom Come.
Really? Bert Blyleven played 4 more years than Morris and threw over 1000 more innings than Morris, yet his ERA was nearly 60 points lower than Jack Morris’.
Blyleven’s ERA 3.31, Morris’ ERA 3.91. Imagine if Blyleven pitched in this ERA.
Blyleven’s whip 1.198, Morris Whip 1.296. In over 1000 more innings Blyleven had a lower WHIP by far than Morris. And Morris deserves to get in before Blyleven. Really?
Lee Smith - He was the career saves leader when he retired … how does that not qulify for being one of the best in the business? He’s still second, and ahead of Mo … The man deserves a plaque.
Goose - Being a Yankee, I hope he gets in, but he’s definitely on the bubble.
Donnie - He’s one of the most decorated Yankees of all time. He did more in his shortened career than many HOFs did in 20 years … the writers are blinded by certain criteria.
Hawk - Dawson was one of my favorite players to watch and if integrety/sportsmanship can keep you out, he should be in because of it.
Why is no one mentioning Lee Smith? His numbers are very similar to those of Gossage, and his saves and K/9 are superior.
Peter Abraham says Blyleven was the kind of pitcher that hitters would say they have a shot at in a pennant race. So how come Blyleven was 5-1 with a 2.47 era in the post season?
I guess Abraham would tell us that October baseball is not a pennant race.
Morris was 7-4 with a 3.80 era in 92 innings. But that may be a little misleading. If you throw out the last two post seasons with Toronto he is 7-1 with a 2.60 era in 69 innings. In other words, about the same as Blyleven.
Both pitchers strike me as pretty much the same. Blyleven has the support of stat heads, Morris the support of “Old Sportswriter” types who value wins over era. Blyleven spent years with lousy organizations like the Twins and Indians, Morris was on pretty good teams.
Rice, Goose, Blyleven, Dawson, Trammell, Raines.
If Blyleven is elected he will become the only player in the Hall who was born in Europe.
He was born in Amsterdam, right?
Rice and Goose are No debate HOF’ers.
some others are borderline. Morris, Rock Raines and Lee Smith
Big Mack does not like to talk about the past But the BBWAA will consider his past when keeping him out.
BTW I dont think Puckett should be in, but since he is in then Donnie should be in as well.
oh yeah Blyleven is also borderline, and better than Morris.
I forgot about him.
Too bad the ballot is in alphabetical order Mattingly’s name next to the big cheat Macgwire. Tommy John should get in just because the surgery that has saved many a pitchers career was so named after him(just kidding.)
Maybe goose has a chance this ballot,We need more yankees in the Hof.
Davis Justice,Yuk he wasn’t too smart with the way he treated Halle Berry what a low life,I don’t care if he ever makes it in !!!
I’ve been of the opinnion that Clemens came back to NY this season to retire as a yankee. I hope that’s the cap he’ll have on when he’s inducted in the Hall.
“I’ve been of the opinnion that Clemens came back to NY this season to retire as a yankee. I hope that’s the cap he’ll have on when he’s inducted in the Hall.”
I think there were eighteen million other more compelling reasons why Clemens came back to New York this last year.
John
Goose
Rice
McGwire
John is way overdue considering his pioneer status and overall success even though pitching into his dotage cost him some winning %. His three 20-win seasons in the first five years after getting a new arm (in essence) tips the balance.
Blylevin is another Don Sutton and the HoF is not a longevity award, but an honor for excellence. His .534 winning percentage and mere handful of All-Star and CYA top ten finishes over his long career demonstrate that he was nowhere near the type of dominant pitcher who deserves a spot in the Hall, regardless of how many crap teams he pitched for (*cough* ‘84 Indians *cough*). His postseason numbers (5-1, 2.47) are one of the better arguments for his election.
Seriously, if Ron Guidry (.651 winning %, 2 ERA titles, one CYA, six top-10 CYA finishes including four top-5s, 3 20+ win seasons, two AL wins titles, 1.69 World Series ERA) doesn’t get a mention because his career was relatively short, Blyleven (one 20-win season, four top-10 CYA finishes, no wins or ERA titles, no CYA wins, .534 winning %) should not get anyone’s attention. [Kudos only to Keith Olbermann of all people who made the case for Guidry a decade ago]. Guidry had nearly as many shutouts (26) as Morris (28) despite starting 200 fewer games.
Maybe Hawk and Raines in another year. Unfortunately for Raines, folks forget he was more than just a basestealer in his prime.
According to at least two sources (one in Minny and one here in NY) the Yankees and Twins may be closer to a deal than is being reported. The deal would be Melky, CM Wang, Jose Tabata and A-Ball prospect 2b Damon Sublett who was amazing this past season. There might be an addition or subtraction here or there, but the important thing is that the three major cogs are essentially set with Wang, Melky and Tabata.
Jim Rice??
your Sox are showing.
seriously.
you post how the Yankees should stay away from Mike Lowell because of his Home/Away splits, but you would vote for Jim Rice?
Home: .320/.374/.546
Away: .277/.330/.459
for HALF of this guy’s career, he was basically Shea Hillenbrand. away from Fenway Park, he was Shea Hillenbrand.
is that a Hall of Famer?
Rice WAS great. for about 6 seasons.
he has about 6 hall worthy seasons.
sorry, not enough. not even close.
it’s embarrassing that people who make these decisions would vote for Rice over Raines.
i’m surprised by the lack of raines on some of your lists. when i saw a headline that he was going to be on the ballot a few days ago, i thought no-brainer for that one…
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Rich Gossage
“Seriously, if Ron Guidry doesn’t get a mention because his career was relatively short…, Blyleven… should not get anyone’s attention.”
HUH?
innings pitched:
Guidry: 2392
Blyleven: 4970
you guys know this information is free, right?
Seeing Jose Rijo’s name reminds me that this will actually be his second time on the ballot. He first appeared on the ballot in 2001 before pitching that year and in 2002. This will likely be the last time that his name ever shows, though. There’s very little chance that he will even get the five percent of the vote necessary to stay on the ballot.
Maybe players on the Hall of Fame ballot should start coming out of retirement just to keep their names on the ballot and to keep open the possibility of getting elected!
I am a huge Yankee fan and just old enough (38) to remember Jim Rice and George Brett killing us in the late 70’s early 80’s
Pete you say he is a jerk but do you know about this:
From wikipedia on Jim Rice…
humanitarian accomplishment occurred during a nationally televised game on August 7, 1982, when he rushed into the stands to help a young boy who had been struck in the head by a line drive off the bat of Dave Stapleton. As other players and spectators watched, Rice left the dugout and entered the stands to help 4-year old Jonathan Keane, who was bleeding heavily. Rice carried the boy onto the field, through the Red Sox dugout and into the clubhouse, where the young boy could be treated by the team’s medical staff. Team doctor Arthur Pappas later said that Rice’s actions may have saved the boy’s life
Clearly Bert Blyleven should be on your list (and clearly posters on this blog agree).
Key stat that I don’t think should be ignored (though it might be on another posting) is he is Number five on the all-time strikeout list (3701) — and when he retired, I think he was number 3 (since passed by the Rocket and the Big Unit).
In fact, when he came into the league (1970) the all-time record was held by Walter Johnson (3509), which Blyleven passed. That’s a big deal. If you said that someone who came into the league in 2007 was going to exceed one of the marquee pitching stats held in 2007 (wins or K’s), you would say he was an automatic HoF’er. The fact that legends like Ryan, Carlton, Clemens and Johnson also pitched in the same era, shouldn’t diminish Blyleven’s accomplishments.
Don’t forget “Most feared hitter” in your argument for Rice…
If he was really feared, wouldn’t he have many more walks, ala Bonds? Even Vladdie will pass Rice in walks in this, his 10th season.
Give me a break!
Sox showing? Who?
Rice had six top-5 MVP finishes in a 12 year span from 1975-1986. That’s dominance against your peer group.
Wade Boggs was a first ballot hall-of-famer with 90%+ of the vote. Unless writers put him in for his defense they better vote for Tim Raines who was every bit Boggs’s equal as an offensive player.
Wade Boggs - 10918 PA, .328/.415/.443, 1513 runs, 1014 RBI
Tim Raines — 10507 PA, .294/.385/.425, 1571 runs, 980 RBI
“BTW I dont think Puckett should be in, but since he is in then Donnie should be in as well.”
why? b/c their stats are similar?
you do realize one played 1B and one played CF?
Pete-
Looks like there is a another knucklehead to be banned from you blog.
[i]He was born in Amsterdam, right?[/i]
Right country, wrong city. Blyleven was born in the Netherlands in the town of Zeist (pop. 60,000). He moved to California when he was a kid, but still–not exactly the cradle of pitchers over there.
Dang! I meant your.
Yeah “Hmmm” it’s free, and in your argument, worth every penny.
Guidry was a bona fide ace. His career started late, unfortunately for him, but your argument is preposterous — it’s not a longevity award.
I read the article about steriods and I think its pointing a bit to sheffield (Some of the marlins on roids) but who else do you think was on roids on that team?
Pete - rthe problem is the comparisons -
Bernie Williams must be HOF if Rice is - Rice must be if X is, Raines must be — exactly why? Mattingly did not have longevity to put up totally defensible numbers but Koufax did ot have longecity — yet they both “dominated” — Oh Koufax got into several WS and did well — now teams get to the WS not becuase of 154 games but cecause of the card and the near total unpredictabiity of a sort series and two long series. Do post seasson stats really count for anyhting — it is more the team than an indiviual player
So Byleven, Morris, and Gossage - without them their teams don’t even have successful seasons
Excpet for a very few players
“Rice had six top-5 MVP finishes in a 12 year span from 1975-1986. That’s dominance against your peer group.”
right, like i said, he had 6 hall of fame level seasons.
is that enough?
his career was too short and he added little defensive value.
i’d love to see the argument for Rice over someone like Will Clark, who fell off the ballot in his first year.
I read the article about steriods and I think its pointing a bit to sheffield (Some of the marlins on roids) but who else do you think was on roids on that team?
———————————————————–
Kevin Brown for one, though he was clearly off them when he pitched for the Yankees.
Pete,
How could you not vote for Raines? I think he’s first ballot.
If you don’t vote for Tim Raines you shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
I would take Pete’s list and add Donnie Baseball. After that, there is nothing that stands out.
Can anyone confirm that Jim Kaat is no longer eligible for the Veterans Committee?
Anyone think Billy Martin is an HOFer?
He’ll probably never make it, but I feel that David Justice is a sure-fire hall of famer. The guy was in the postseason every year of his career. There’s something to be said for that.
I’d also vote for Raines and Gossage.
Rice was an average player. Being “feared” shouldn’t get one in the Hall of Fame.
Rice doesn’t have the stats in the end. Plain and simple.
Why not Don Mattingly? If integrity, sportsmanship, and character are a factor, and it is indeed not a Hall of Stats, then why not go with one of the most famous and beloved players, for one of the most famous and beloved teams, in the history of the sport?
Don Mattingly should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame
The writers are the same group of boobs who mess up MVP and Cy young voting every year. Why should this be any different? Almost sinful that Goose, Blyleven, Trammel, Kaat aren’t in.
The only reason there is a pro Rice thing going is because of the Boston area papers. Check the stats. He’s not a Hall of Famer. He never won a title. He was a lousy defensive player. He played his whole career in an easy home ballpark which inflated offensive stats. And his character was as low as you can get.
Mattingly can join the Hall of Very Good. Along with Rice and Bernie.
Boy, I am a little surprised at all the support for Blyleven. I don’t remember him as a dominant pitcher in his era, and I wonder whether all of his supporters will also be backing the future candidacy of Mike Mussina (significantly better winning percentage, nearly identical WHIP and slightly worse ERA so far.). Admittedly, Moose won’t have pitched as long, but it has been repeatedly noted that HOF is not a longevity award. Personally, I don’t think either deserves election. Of course, personally, I also think the HOF, with all of its cross-time comparisons, is largely BS.
51 forever Shortly after that article came out, Grimsleys lawyer said that it was untrue about Clemens and Pettitte being named. Of course that wasn’t as big of a story.
PS-
I love Pete’s arbitrary comment about how HoF discussion separates good fans from phonies. My money says at least 20 people on this board have more baseball knowledge.
If Mattingly, Guidry, Bernie, or Billy Martin ever make the Hall, all the Yankee-haters will start a riot.
Raines seems like a borderline case to me. His career OBA of .385 is uninspiring (ranked 132nd all-time), and since that was what he did best, I think I would leave him off my ballot. Great guy though.
“Raines was a very good player. But after the first 8 years of his career, he was nothing special for the next 15 or so. He had a good 97 season with the Yanks.”
nothing special? i feel like i took crazy pills.
here are Raines’ OBPs after the first 8 years:
.395
.379
.359
.380
.401
.365
.374
.383
.403
.395
.337
.413
.351
so, you have one of the greatest base stealers of all time who is also an on-base machine. not a bad combination.
Raines was so much better than Jim Rice that i literally cannot believe intelligent baseball fans are having this argument.
Why does Blyleven have to be dominant? Check the stats. There are plenty of pitchers in the Hall who weren’t dominant. Maybe 10 pitchers in history can be considered dominant anyway. The stats tell the story with Blyleven. No one with that many wins and k’s should be excluded.
Pete - Are you able to set up another poll, only this time letting the poll taker select multiple answers? It would be fun to see.
My vote, in order of certainty:
Blyleven
Gossage
Dawson
Raines
That’s it. No Rice nor Morris for me.
How Raines isn’t a first ballot lock is beyond me. How does one NOT vote for Raines after looking at the numbers? Ridiculous.
Wasn’t it something about the names that were blacked out were Pettitte and Clemens? Grimsleys lawyer said that it was untrue.
“Kevin Brown for one, though he was clearly off them when he pitched for the Yankees.”
except for the times he went around punching walls…
PS again-
If Rice should get in despite not being a nice guy, so should Albert Belle, who was 100 times the player Rice was. Belle was basically a spitting image of Ralph Kiner, without the personality. Check the numbers.
I’d like to hear a good reason for including Rice. Without using the feared logic and the fact that he was in the top 10 in MVP voting 6 times which means less than nothing.
Ranting Guy:
I actually agree on Smith too. He revolutionized the closer position in my opinion.
I know someone who was right there when it happened. He said it was quite a scene! He couldn’t believe it!
Mister Jones: re Blyleven, I will grant the K’s, but there are nearly as many L’s as W’s, which is what it felt like watching him at the time - about a 50/50 shot that he could be beaten. Is that HOF?
He would be the stopper on the All-Netherlands staff, though.
Blyleven and Remerswaal, then pray for a big squall.
Blyleven and Mcgwire are the top 2 from the list for me.
Peter, your take on voting/not voting for guys with 500 HRs and/or guys using PEDs is interesting.
What to do about Thome, Sheffield, PAlmiero, Sosa when they become eligible?
Shamus- Can’t be true because here he said it was Wang not Joba.
Shamus - didn’t the Yankees just draft Sublett and isn’t he therefore ineligible to be traded until a year after he signs? Although that may be a minor detail. I think Cuz is pulling our legs. I don’t recognize the name.
“Yeah “Hmmm” it’s free, and in your argument, worth every penny.
Guidry was a bona fide ace. His career started late, unfortunately for him, but your argument is preposterous — it’s not a longevity award.”
wow. snarky and uninformed. great combo.
Blyleven vs. Guidry is a LANDSLIDE. it’s laughable to even make such an argument. anyone who isn’t a yankee fan would laugh at the comparison.
Guidry and Blyleven have virtually identical career ERAs. except Blyleven did it for more than double the innings.
that’s really all that needs to be said.
Shamus: not true. Cash and Steinny have both said Joba is absolutley untouchable
Time Raines is very close, but when you consider he was a plus defender and also the most successful (percentage-wise) base stealer of all time, he gets my phantom vote. His HoF stats from Baseball reference.com are below. In addition, his ten most comparable players include five HoFers. One way to think about it is that adding him to the HoF essentially keeps the overall quality level the same as it is now. I think that should be the minimum standard, if not a little higher given how much the crony veterans committee and the Big Red Machine ball washers have diluted it already.
Black Ink: Batting - 20 (105) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 114 (176) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 46.8 (91) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 90.0 (175) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Kenny Lofton (861)
Lou Brock (861) *
Max Carey (855) *
Willie Davis (846)
Jimmy Ryan (826)
Jose Cruz (821)
Julio Franco (821)
Fred Clarke (816) *
Harry Hooper (814) *
Enos Slaughter (814) *
I hope Joba stays untouchable because im getting a joba shirt for xmas
Joba would only be traded for the reincarnation of Sandy Koufax in his prime. Joba has the dynamite stuff, the makeup, and also the intimidation factor to be a front of the rotation staple for a long time.
Anyone relying on w/l as a real litmus test for how good a pitcher is probably shouldn’t engage in baseball analysis. See, there’s this little thing called run support. If Blyleven had any, any AT ALL when he was ridiculously dominant he would have had well over the 300 wins all of you w/l idiots would have needed to open the gates. Just go look at his career from 1971-1975 and try to say he wasn’t dominant but screwed by lack of run support. He played on craptacular teams with Minny early on. If w/l is how you actually guage pitcher skill, please curl up in the manly arms of Joe Morgan and imagine yourself actually engaging in baseball analysis.
hmmm: “Raines was so much better than Jim Rice that i literally cannot believe intelligent baseball fans are having this argument.”
It’s ridiculous. And we’re not talking about random people having this opinion, this guy is a sportswriter and a member of the BBWAA which means someday he’s going to have a vote.
The three most deserving guys on that list are Blyleven, Raines, and Gossage. Hands down, no questions, and it’s not even close.
Yet you have sportswriters who will tell you Jack Morris and Jim Rice were the better players. I think a lot of it is selective memory and depends greatly on where one grew up (and I’m fairly sure Peter was raised in New England, hence the blind devotion to Jim Rice).
Raines: .294/.385/.425 AB: 8872 Hits: 2605 BB: 1330 SB: 808 CS: 146
Lou Brock: 293/.343/.410 AB: 10332 Hits: 10332 BB: 761 SB: 938 CS: 307
Raines> Low Brock
Raines did cocaine, so did Paul Molitor.
Okay, some more perspective on Blyleven – and it’s not like I ever rooted for the guy on the Twins or Pirates, just think he is being disrespected by the Hall and Pete: He started 685 Games (Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux both have started 707 games). He had 242 complete games and 60 shutouts (9th all-time)! Roger Clemens, who has started more games, has only 118 complete games (Maddux 108), and Rocket has only 46 career shutouts (Maddux 35).
I don’t have all the cybermetrics at hand, but think it is fairly common knowledge that pitchers’ ERA’s go up in innings 7-9. I’d hazard to guess that if you did a statistical analysis of Blyleven’s complete games (and maybe other games when he went into the 8th or 9th but didn’t get a complete game), and instead hypothetically “removed” him in the 7th or 8th of 100 of them (as Clemens and Maddux were removed), you might drop his ERA by a nice amount.
Lastly, I don’t think Pete ever saw Blyleven’s curve. It was a thing of beauty.
Michael T–
All of his HOFer numbers you’ve cited (HOF Standards, HOF Monitor, etc.) are below average for HOFers. I realize that that shouldn’t preclude him from the Hall (the bottom half of the HOF still includes some great players), but I don’t think it helps his case.
Jack Morris is a tricky case. Based on his longevity he racked up some decent counting stats. He also showed up a lot on the league leaderboard in thngs like wins that are more a function of the team than the pitcher. And, of course romantic sportswriters like Pete love the Gritty Big Gamer. (Although I never thought “Oh Crap” when facing Jack Morris at least relative to the better pitchers of the era like Clemens, Ryan, Gooden, Smoltz, Hershiser, etc). But the most damning statistic of all is his ERA+ of only 1.05. Park-adjusted and adjusted for league offense he was only 5% better than the average pitcher over his career. For comparison, Mike Mussina’s career ERA+ is 122. And even 2006 Mussina, which didn’t look like a hall of famer to any of us was ERA+ 129. Not to mention the anit-Oh Crap Bert Blyleven’s was 114 for his career.
Morris MoF Monitor and Comparables below suggest he will get in despite what I wrote above. He wouldn’t get my vote, FWIW.
Black Ink: Pitching - 20 (88) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 193 (47) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 39.0 (73) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 122.5 (64) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Pitchers
Dennis Martinez (903)
Bob Gibson (885) *
Luis Tiant (873)
Jamie Moyer (864)
Red Ruffing (861) *
Chuck Finley (859)
Amos Rusie (859) *
Burleigh Grimes (855) *
Bob Feller (855) *
Jim Bunning (854) *
Neither members of the media nor fans should have any say. No wonder so many marginal candidates have made it into the HOF that its significance is diluted!
No one should vote on this other than those who wear (or have worn) an MLB uni for at least 5-10 years (tenure to be debated at a future time).
My opinion on this is as meaningless as yours and those of your confreres. I abstain.
Lou Brock had over 10,000 hits? holy s#*@!
Max-
He is barely below average and these are based mostly on batting stats. He had great value as a baserunner and base stealer, which puts him over in my book. Also I am an OBP guy and his career OBP was .385 over 23 seasons, finishing in the top 5 6 times. A lot of those black ink and grey ink batting stats are for garbage like BA, total hits, doubles, RBI that don’t take into account how many outs you make to offset that production.
Peter, did I read you correctly that Todd Stottlemyre and Robb Nen are on the ballot??? Wow, why on earth is Todd Stottlemyre on the ballot and is this the same Robb Nen that is the closer for the Twins?
My vote for HOF is Gossage, (so obvious that it is an embarassment to the HOF committee that he has not already been voted in), Rice, Blylevin and Donnie Baseball.
Also if the rumors of the deal for Santana in the previous post are true, what does that mean for the Yankees CF position this year?
Also, there were rumors a couple of weeks ago that the Yankees were close to signing Mahay, LH RP who pitched with the Braves and came over to them from Texas in the Texeira deal. Any new word on that deal?
SP for 2008
Santana
Pettitte
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy/Mussina
CF: Damon/Gardner/free agent signee/Jackson?
Will the Yankees now pull the trigger on signing Jones or Rowland or let Damon and Gardner share the position until Ajax is ready?
I agree with Vito. I think the correct answer is none of the above.
Miller is legit, he broke the Arod contract and Alex secret talks w/ NYY 72 hrs. before it happened
McGwire’s home runs aside, what else did he do well?
2,000 hits? No-1626 Durabilty? Yes he played 16 seasons, but there were 6 years that he played in less than 100 games. Fielding-he was a statue.
He hit home runs and there’s some legitimate questions that need to be answered regarding them.
As for Rice, a .298 batting average and 382 home runs is a good, possibly very good, but not HISTORIC career. Mattingly has fewer home runs, but a better lifetime average, was a suprior fielder(fielding percentage was 16 points higher-.980-.996), and struck out 1000 times less that Rice did.
now is where registration would be helpful. how do we know that’s the same Miller and not some guy who wants to spread rumors and realizes we trust posts by the name ‘Miller’.
And for fun Jim Rice. His career OBP of .352 just doesn’t cut it for me. Particularly when you consider that he was toast at age 36, putting up an OBP of .276 as a DH! Jorge Posada, for contrast has a career OBP of .381 and put up a .426 as a 35 year-old catcher. Rice was a great player but he simply had too short a peak. Including him is a slippery slope toward Mattingly, Dale Murphy, Will Clark, and even Jack Clark- guys who were MVP caliber for a few years but weren’t elite players for more than 10.
Black Ink: Batting - 33 (49) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 176 (57) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 43.0 (113) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 146.5 (85) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Orlando Cepeda (911) *
Andres Galarraga (893)
Ellis Burks (882)
Duke Snider (882) *
Joe Carter (866)
Dave Parker (856)
Billy Williams (854) *
Moises Alou (850)
Willie Stargell (842) *
Luis Gonzalez (841)
Tim-
I think everyone who played a minimum of 10 years goes on the ballot after they’ve been out of the game for five years, regardless of merit. If they don’t get a certain % of the vote then it is “one and done”.
the way he said it.. it’s Miller I have no doubt about that post I read so far he is 3 for 3 in the baseball news
Michael T–
You make a good case for Raines. I’m blown away by his success rate in SB. And I loved your “the Big Red Machine ball washers” quote, by the way.
It won’t be a travesty or anything if Raines doesn’t make it. But I’m convinced enough that I would vote for him.
Somehow I had an episode of brain fade and forgot Tim Raines.
Maybe it was the lack of coffee and a good breakfast this morning. Add Rock to my list.
the way he said it? the sincere look on his face probably helped too, no?
j/k
John:
McGwire is ninth all time in Slugging. Eleventh all time in OPS and twelfth in OPS+.
He has more than 500 HRs, which up until now, has guaranteed induction.
Unless the Steroid issue precludes him or the criteria changes drastically, he should be in.
Speaking of HOFers, I just had the pleasure of watching a ‘private’ workout of Derek Jeters. DJ showed up at my school (University of Tampa) and did a couple of laps, and some sit ups with his trainer. He was on our track, and he had more spectators then our Soccer Team gets…
“McGwire’s home runs aside, what else did he do well?”
uhhh…
i am NOT interested in the steroid debate, b/c i don’t even know how i feel about it in McGwire’s case. but this sentence is confusing.
“home runs aside”??
that’s like saying “saves aside, what else did mariano rivera do well?” “defense aside, what else did Ozzie Smith do well?” etc.
the guy hit 583 HRs. why would we put them aside?
Saucy, never mind some idiot from NYYFANS.COM is F’n w/ us that wasn’t Miller
KLev-
Those are greta points about Blyleven pitching deep into games, which has considerable value since he is soaking up innings for the team that would otherwise go to league-average (or worse) middle relief. However, Blyleven’s stats actually didn’t suffer for pitching late in the game. I couldn’t find ERA by inning but did find OPS+-against by inning on Baseball-Reference.com. Here it is:
inning 1-3 94
inning 4-6 106
inning 7-9 99
inning 10+ 176.
He did get hurth when they stretched him out over 9 innings, but this was only for a total of 102 plate appearnces out of nearly 22,000.
this is like the blogs own version of a scooby doo episode
Miller,
Any truth what Cuz said about Yanks-Twins being close to a Santana trade for Tabata, Melky, Sublett and Horne?
“Wow, why on earth is Todd Stottlemyre on the ballot and is this the same Robb Nen that is the closer for the Twins?”
you are confusing Nathan with Nen.
Nen was a pretty good closer for the Giants and the 1997 Marlins.
Something about Big Mac one might consider is whether or not 583 HR should cut it anymore. Steroids or no, the 90’s was a hitters era like none other, and offensive stats should be considered accordingly. I could still easily be convinced that he’s worthy, but there seems a fair argument against him. Put it this way: there are a number of other more deserving candidates on the list.
it’s not Miller, it’s some clowwn from NYYFANS.COM F’n w/ us
Max-
My case study for Big Red Machine ball washers is Tony Perez. Lifetime OBP of .341 and HoF batting standards of 40.7. As a first baseman. Hall of Famer NOT! And Joe Morgan continues to lobby even for Dave Concepcion.
Tony Perez:
Gray Ink: Batting - 129 (136) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 40.7 (140) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 81.0 (214) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Overall Rank in parentheses.
Similar Batters
Compare Stats
Harold Baines (935)
Dave Parker (899)
Andre Dawson (886)
Rusty Staub (872)
Dwight Evans (866)
Billy Williams (860) *
Al Kaline (859) *
Luis Gonzalez (850)
Chili Davis (834)
Jim Rice (820)
Joe Morgan is a cancer on the game, for sure. His ludicrous condemnations of “Moneyball” (does he still believe Billy Beane wrote it?) are so entertaining, however, that I hope he sticks around just so I can continue to mock him.
As to why people like Todd S and Nenn are on the ballot is that it is a right if you played 10 years in the Majors. So even if you were a journeyman as long as you have 10 years of service and have been retired for 5 years you will make it on the ballot and to let the cream rise to the top so to speak is why they have the cieling that if you dont receive x percentage you are not eligible the next year.
The great irony with Morgan is that his playing career reads like a sabrmetric wet dream. And yet, he’ll actually suggest that a high OBP from too many walks can be a problem for a slugger because it “clogs up the basepaths”. Right. I guess it’d be better to make that out than get on base and ruin your team’s chances for scoring. Chestnuts like that make hating the rants of Joe Morgan a real pleasure. It used to make me angry, but now I do find it rather funny. The Billy Beane “Moneyball” thing is truly hilarious.
Coney12 if it’s Santana for Tabata, Melky, Horne & Sublett (?) and none of our 3-headed pithing prospect, let ‘er rip and let Damon play CF for another year. Where’d you hear this?
How good would the next 5+ years be with Santana, Wang & all 3 of the kids? If Pettitte comes back and Moose can put in at least half a good year as a number 5, we’ll be loaded on the mound.
If this was to happen (purely speculation at this point) would there be a 5 man rotation with the 3 (or 4) big ones on 5 days all year long, and the other 3 (or 4) rotating in as Girardi senses who has the hot arm. Back in ‘98 wasn’t there 6 legit starters most of the year (not 6 aces of course) plus Mendoza who could either start or do long relief?
One or two of the kids could also start the season in the minors and come up when someone inevitably falters or gets hurt. I won’t begin to guess who it’d be, or if Joba would be moved to set up man if Pettitte comes back. I’d like to see him start and show all 4 of his pitches.
I can’t imagine Girardi telling a hardened vet like Moose he’s not a full time starter out of spring training. If he slumps for a couple months like he did last year he’ll try to tough it out but he’s shown he’s eventually willing roll with a change to help the team.
TIM RAINES! The guy is more of a HOFer than Jim Rice.
I meant Wang not Horne.
RantingGuy-
No way the Twins are doing a deal without getting Wang/or Joba/or Hughes + Melky + (a couple other valuable cheap parts like Horne or Tabata or Jackson). They can get at least that from other teams. The Sox are actually a great trade partner here. They could offer Buchholz or Lester plus Crisp (cheap contract and CF) plus another high ceiling minor leaguer that isn’t in the Sox 08/09 plans like Masterson or Jed Lowrie.
I’d do Wang/Melky/Horne in a heartbeat, but I suspect the Twins would much rather have Buchholz/Crisp/Masterson or Lowrie. And the Dodgers have a lot to offer too.
Bobby, steroids were illegal in the game. There just wasn’t any testing allowed, so you pretty much had to catch someone with the syringe in their hands. Falls under the same rules as cocaine, which baseball clearly was able to punish players for.
Besides, steroids didn’t need to be illegal in the game, as they are already illegal under federal law.
I think I just got sick. Got this email from Tom Tom.
Trading Melky Cabrera, even as part of a Santana package, it ridiculous. The domino effect would be extreme. Center field would be severely weakened by having Damon out there (instead of Melky); left field would be severely weakened by having Matsui out there (instead of Damon); DH would be a mess all year with Giambi out there (instead of Matsui). Three positions get weakened (two get SEVERELY KILLED defensively speaking) with the loss of Melky.
Rowand ain’t happenin’ folks. Neither is Andruw Jones. Melky is our CF.
I’ve always loved the Mattingly-Puckett debate. Someone brought it up earlier that if Puckett is in, Mattingly should be in. I always thought that was fair. Look at the numbers:
Kirby
.318-207-1,085; .837 OPS; ‘89 batting champ; led AL in hits four times; six gold gloves
Mattingly
.307-222-1,099; .829 OPS; ‘84 batting champ; led AL in hits twice; ‘85 MVP; nine gold gloves
Morris should be in this year. In fact, he should have been in a long time ago. He’s the classic guy that stat geeks always criticize, because him getting in debunks their entire reason for living. Fact is, no pitcher had more wins in the ’80s. He pitched a career defining game in the ‘91 Series, and he was 6-1 lifetime in the postseason.
I’m also stunned there isn’t more support. The man fell 12 wins short of 300 and had a surgery that changed baseball forever. There has to be some reward for having that type of courage. Not that someone else wouldn’t have had it first, but a lot of that was Tommy pushing Frank Jobe to come up with a way to save his career. Plus, he was a damn good pitcher.
Michael T - I was just asking someone else about what they said was happening. He just said he meant someone else.
I would put Damon in center for 25 games and sign Camaron to take his place after his suspension. Hopefully next year a-jax will be ready to take over the duties.
Does anyone else think that it would be better trading Wang than Hughes? I think Hughes has a greater upside and Wang is what he is. Dont get me wrong a good pitcher but has IMO peaked.
“I’ve always loved the Mattingly-Puckett debate. Someone brought it up earlier that if Puckett is in, Mattingly should be in. I always thought that was fair.”
CF.
1B.
i’m not wild about Puckett’s induction, but the fact that their numbers are identical while one played CF and the other played 1B should end the debate.
there really is no case to be made for Mattingly over someone like, say, John Olerud.
would you include Olerud in the Hall of Fame?
Did I just enter the twlights zone?
Jennifer –
Surely that’s a joke????
there is no way the real SJ44 posted that.
No Doreen it is true.
I get an email update from Tom Tom, and that was on there. 
And why would someone post their phone number on here.
On further review, I’ll retract a vote for Rice. He had a great knack for making extra outs — the man made the late ’90s McGwire look like a speedster.
Brendan (Boston): Why is it news when the Yankees inquire about Santana. What team hasn’t?
Rob Neyer: (12:05 PM ET ) It’s news because the Yankees are one of the few teams that’s likely to offer the sort of long-term contract that would make a trade possible.
——————————————————————————–
Kevin(CT): If the Yanks offer a Hughes, Cabrera, Ohlendorf and Tabata for Santana would that be enough? What do you think it will take?
Rob Neyer: (12:11 PM ET ) I think that would be more than enough. I’m not smart enough to figure the perfectly balanced/acceptable trade, but if the Yankees offered those four guys the Twins would be foolish if they didn’t jump on it.
——————————————————————————–
tik tok (oz): You blog about Wallace Mathews’ article in Newsday, taking exception with a couple things he said, but it seems to me his larger point is that the Yankees are chumps for talking to A-Rod after they said they wouldn’t, then negotiating against themselves. Sounds like Wallace got it right. But that’s just the Yankees being the Yankees, right? (Or in other words, the man behind the curtain is a chump?)
Rob Neyer: (12:18 PM ET ) Right. And my point was that how are the Yankees chumps for getting the best player in the majors at a price they can easily afford to pay?
——————————————————————————–
Doug (NY): Am I naive to think that over the next 6 years, I’d rather have Hughes (for approx $6M) than Santana (for approx $150M)
Rob Neyer: (12:28 PM ET ) It depends on which team you’re running. If you’re running the Yankees and you want to make a *profit* you want Hughes. But if you’re running the Yankees and you want to win (while still making a profit, but a smaller one) you want Santana. It’s important to remember that Hughes, for all his talent, probably won’t win 100 games in the majors, simply because so many bad things can happen to a young pitcher.
——————————————————————————–
Adam (NYC): It’s hard to believe that Santana will win another 100 games though…wouldn’t Hughes have a better chance of reaching that mark than a 29 year old pitcher past his prime? If the Yanks sign Santana to a 10 year extension, they’d be paying Santana $20 million a year at age 39…at the same time Hughes would be entering the prime of his career. Can you say Kevin Brown? Not a very wise business move to say the least.
Rob Neyer: (12:34 PM ET ) Adam, here’s a chance for some research. Go back and make a list of 20 pitching prospects with Hughes’ credentials. Then make a list of 20 pitchers with Santana’s credentials. I’ll bet you the Santana comps won more games afterward than the Hughes comps did.
——————————————————————————–
Stephen (East Greenbush, NY): Rob, do you think Jorge Posada is a HOF catcher already? If not, what are his chances with his next four years? Thanks.
Rob Neyer: (12:42 PM ET ) He’s not. Right now he’s Elston Howard. But if he can defy historical trends and play well for another three or four years, he becomes a solid candidate.
so much for registation. i think we could use it right now
registRation i mean
heard about the curt GPS voice thing. does he shut up between turns?
Shamus that really wasn’t your number was it?
“hmmm
November 27th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I like to toss salads….
Aside from ripping on people for their opinions…”
whatever.
if you have no desire to learn anything about baseball and don’t think posting opinions that don’t hold up in light of facts should be called out, then fine.
i’ll leave.
especially if Pete is going to allow impersonators.
I think he talks about how much he hates the Yankees, and about steriods.
shamus you’re nuts!!
I think he lobbies for at least one Cy Young vote.
Rice is a pretty bad HOF candidate.
Gossage, Blyleven and Raines run circles around the other candidates.
Okay that was not me.
Jennifer,
Imposter alert. Unless Shamus decided to go lower case.
I wonder what the LH blog signal is to get Pete’s attention? You know like to get Batman’s attention you put up the bat in the spotlight. Pete you’re needed around here.
None of the last 3 posts are mine! Hope you enjoyed your fun.
ray just email him! Copy the offending posts and Pete will take care of it.
Thanks Jennifer!
If this idiot causing trouble didn’t make a case for registration I don’t know what will.
At least the troll is smart enough to know that Yankee fans are hot.
“As for Mark McGwire, I’m not sure he would get my vote regardless of his involvement with performance-enhancing drugs.”
What a crazy thing to say! If you are ignoring the PED stuff than McGwire is definitely a Hall of famer. Come on dude, seriously look at his stats. If you’re just going by stats than McGwire is clearly a HOF player.
“jen jen” seems to be turned on by the whale demographic.
Rice- feared only because he was the best on mediocre Boston teams. He played with Yaz at the end of his career (he played about 5 years too long IMO), Lynn (very good player for Boston) who left for free agency, and Dewey Evans (very good player, definitely underated, but not HOF material) that’s it. He was not good away from Fenway, and was done after age 34. Not a HOF.
Blyleven, (who I saw pitch on TV many times) had the best curveball in baseball in his time. Was a strikout leader for many years. Played on bad teams in hitters parks. He deserves HOF status. Besides, anyone who can drop the f-bomb on TV (see it on you-tube)deserves consideration for cojones alone.
I don’t think Jack Morris was as good as Blyleven, sorry. Yes he had a great postseason record, and yes he was a gamer. But stats don’t lie and Bert was the superior pitcher for a longer period.
Raines needs to be in. The second best leadoff man in his time. Does suffer in comparison to Ricky (who doesn’t?)
Dawson I am torn about. He was a great player who sacrificed his knees on that horrible green concrete they called astroturf in Montreal. You talk about feared, this guy was feared. A much better all around player than Rice. I think if pressed I could vote for him.
Article on Hank’s ownership style.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=klapisch_bob&id=3127880
On the Santana thing, is it a case of where’s there’s smoke there’s fire? Hank seems like an up and up guy. Not at all into subterfuge. I hope he keeps his word on Hughes, though. I’m not worried about Joba.
On many levels it makes sense. The Yankees are one of the few teams that can afford Santana. He pitches well there. We have some good prospects.
Johnny Damon brings turkey day to Thailand. The headline was a little harsh…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071127/sp_nm/t