Three interesting stories on a Tuesday
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 27, 2007 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Get this, Ichiro wanted to play for the Yankees before he extended his contract with Seattle.
Too bad that didn’t happen. No player is more fun to watch.
Meanwhile, nice guy Johnny Damon visited an orphanage in Thailand. Johnny D’s mom is Thai and he told us several times last season that he was looking forward to this trip.
For all his goofy comments, Damon almost always does the right thing.
My favorite story of the day was on ESPN.com. Buster Olney reported that the Cubs are taking offers on Mark Prior.
This reminds me of the scene in Godfather Part II when Michael met with Senator Geary in Reno.
“You can have my answer now, if you like. My final offer is this: nothing.”
Thanks to Ashley for pointing these stories out to me.
———-
Amid all the good hot-stove banter today, two dopes tried to screw up the process. One guy tried to post as some regulars and was quickly called out on it. He was banned. This other chucklehead, Miller, boasted on another forum about posting false information here. He also was banned and his IP address was forwarded to the IT security people at the paper.
This stuff is rare, fortunately. But we’re staying on top of it.
Prior would be nice. What would it take to get him?
A B-level prospect like Clippard?
Johnny D does really seem like a great guy in person…
hmm, the other yahoo article i read on Damon had a less flattering title
Ugh..Mark Prior. I drafted him in the first round of a 2004 fantasy baseball draft…then went on to trade Adrian Beltre for Esteban Loiaza. Bad year.
Damon’s Thai Thanksgiving strikes out
Poor Johnny
Are the Yankees discussing trading Igawa?
Pete,
Not one word about Santana? lol
_____________________________________________________
Dave,
This is for you. New game-Connect the Dots.
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-204125
nice Godfather connection: perfect.
Well then Ichiro is an idiot.
He would have been a perfect fit in New York’s outfield. Center, Right, Left, wherever.
Too bad he stayed in Seattle. I like the M’s as an organization, but if he really wanted to play in NY, why would he sign an extension with the M’s?
Jake,
He backed off because he believed that Melky was our CF of the future.
Pete – Three posts in one day. Are you making up for lost time?
Mark Prior has broken down more times than my Dad’s 1976 blue Chevy Nova. If the Cubs will take parts for him, it’s a deal.
If you had to give a pitcher up for Johan, would you rather give up Hughes or Wang?
Does Prior have anything left at all? He is 27.
Wang, I know he’s won 19 games the last two years, but I think Phil has a bigger upside. Even though Wang won 19 games last year I think he was more bad than good.
Pete-
Love the Godfather II reference. I also loved Silvio in the penultimate Sopranos after he garrotted that guy who was trying to flip. Silvio told Tony afterward “he got his answer”.
Any GM who offers the Cubs more than a Subway coupon for a free bag of chips (with sandwich purchase)for Prior should be fired immediately.
I was thinking about this today. I really don’t want Hughes gone. I really think that he could be dominate here as soon as he gets the change up which he was on the way to doing before his injury. I remember seeing Teixera striking out on 3 quality change ups. I wonder if package of Betemit, Melky, Horne and Marquez or Austin Jackson would get it done.
did they ever find out where priors velocity went
Oy. I’ve seen this before on this very blog. Please tell me what is so heinous about “posting false information” in the comments here requires notification of “IT Security”. I mean really. It’s not his tax return, it’s not a police interview, it’s the comment section of a blog. Ban him all you like, but security ?
Some people just take themselves far, FAR too seriously sometimes.
Let’s be honest, Sen. Geary & Michael are both part of the same hypocrisy.
the “miller” who broke the a-rod story here?
Hey Yanksrule57 -
Would that have to be with a 6″ sub or a 12″ sub? Either way, the bread would have to be toasted … like his arm.
I think, I hope it was just someone posing as him. And that we weren’t had.
Jennifer….
trading Igawa for what ? They would have to find a GM emerging from a coma to make a deal that included anything but slightly inanimate objects for him.
Igawa should wake up every morning and thank god for Carl Pavano….
I hear Citibank is getting ready to write down his deal
Maybe we can reapproach the Pads, they had interest in him last year. Get a reliever something!!
Oh dear Lord at the person who said that Wang was more bad than good this year…
Saw this on the Yesnetwork message boards, so take it for what it is worth.
Could a deal be close? or are they just getting ready for the rule v?
Can’t Kei Igawa be packaged in some kind of deal ? Any kind of deal will do.
Did you watch him pitch every game? There were many games where he didn’t look that good, I don’t care what the numbers say.
On the good news front, Carl Pavano will not be the Opening Day pitcher at Yankee Stadium in 2008.
Class goes much faster when you read Petes blog during it…
Ranting Guy,
LOL! Very funny, I wish I had thought of that.
Mark McCray: But that involves bringing a computer to class, and some of my classes are too small to do it.
Concerning Prior: Are there any precedents besides Al Leiter and Jim Palmer for a good young pitcher missing several years with injuries and having a good career? Could Prior join this list?
Q —– “if he really wanted to play in NY, why would he sign an extension with the M’s?”
A —– because he’s as dumb as they come. You can’t plan to sign with 2 teams fool.
Jim Clark – Prior could rebound, but with his injury history, would you want to take a chance and sign him to the longterm contract that he wants? I think the Cubs have the right idea about a small, one-year deal and possibly a one-year option. Especially after shoulder surgery?
Rebecca- actually petes got that great new cell phone internet version of the blog now…it uses almost no data and is super fast…haha ive got my phone hidden behind my bookbag right now…my prof has no clue lol stupid econ class come on im a yankee fan i dont get economics
And so the tango begins…
“Our first choice is to sign him,” general manager Bill Smith said carefully, after pausing to answer a question regarding the one year Santana has remaining on his current deal.
With the Yankees economics don’t matter.
Supply and demand. We’ll supply you with prospects and demand that you give us an ace pitcher.
Mel. they can sign him if the owner wants to open up the wallet and let the moths out. But he doesn’t want to put a roof on his stadium when it stays cold in Minni until May.
“Even though Wang won 19 games last year I think he was more bad than good.”
There is no way that this statement can be interpreted to make baseball sense.
Even less when amplified by:
“There were many games where he didn’t look that good, I don’t care what the numbers say.”
Jennifer, this is not figure skating. There are no style points. There are wins and losses.
“Didn’t look that good…” while winning?
LOL!!!
Haha Jennifer the only econ im concerned with is how george is gonna afford a-rod and santana lol.
Mark,
1st Rule of Consumer Economics: If you have to ask the price, you can’t afford it. lol.
Well, of course the Twins’ first choice is to sign Santana. But that’s not going to happen, and he’s just posturing for local fans and politicians.
I’ve been careful not to get too worked up about this, but, after the discourse this afternoon, it does seem to make sense that the Yanks are the logical destination. If Santana truly wants to come here, it would have been easy enough to communicate that to Cash, as Santana and Bobby Abreu, besides both being Venezuelan, both share the same agent, Peter Greenberg. If that’s truly the case, then the trade price becomes the one year “rental” price until the new contract in 2009. And, if Minny is not looking for current SP, but class A pitching, to keep feeding into their starting rotation not next year, but 3-4 years from now, we may not even lose one of the Big 3.
That’s a lot to be enthusiastic about!
(OK, so I’m an optimist.)
Joe,
Most people think that a trade will be contingent on an extension signed within a 72-hour window. Especially if the Yankees are giving up some goods.
Joe–
But we like optimism on this blog!
(I hope, or else I’m in a lot of trouble)
Joe good point about Bobby and Johan. If the Yankees could find out thru Bobby if Johan truely wants to come to the Yankees and only to the Yankees we might be able to lower the prospects that we offer since Johan does hold a no-trade.
Mel without a doubt, there is no way the Yankees will trade without the window.
Rebecca,
I’ve got a new one for you:
Mistress of Optimism
Haha mel…i hope cash follows that rule and passes on santana…lets get haren!
This may sound trivial, but I wonder how it would go down if the Yanks sign Santana to a big-ticket extension before his current contract is up, after refusing to do that for Posada and Mo, two guys who have given a lot more to the team and the fans?
I know, we should be so lucky as to have to deal with that problem.
It is a different situation. The players will understand given the fact that you are giving up prospects. You don’t want to trade prospects for a 1 year rental.
Mark,
But would Haren lose the beard?
Base solely on big-game performances only, who would you rather have, Santana or Beckett?
Beckett. On his way to being the best pitcher in postseason history. Dude’s got ice water running through his veins. He’s still a horse’s butt, though. And a potty mouth.
I’d love to have Santana, but I don’t want to give up Cano or Hughes for him. I don’t even want to give up Melky, but I think I could learn to live with that decision easier than losing Cano or Hughes.
Call me crazy, but I think that we should try to win with the roster we have (after we add some guys to the bullpen, which is where we really need help). I’d only go after Santana if Andy doesn’t come back.
The rule five roster deadline was this past tuesday. Take that for what it is worth.
I meant to clear space to pick up a player from the rule v draft.
Rebecca. I am a huge optimism fan. Just so you know.
Then they would have cleared one space on the roster. I don’t think they plan on picking up two players via Rule V.
So you take it as a sign that something is going down soon?
I think so. I just don’t know why they would do it before a deal was finalized. It is possible that they have agreed on everything, but physicals would still be pending.
Well you know the Yankees they are usually pretty quiet about deals, and when you hear about them they are just about done.
Mel–
Nice! But I’m feeling punny at the moment…
Pete you are hilarious….”chucklehead” – makes me laugh.
Any Yankee fan should breathe easier if Cashman comes out of the winter meetings with the bullpen fixed.
Get LH Damaso Marte in a deal with Pittsburgh, sign FA Ron Mahay, either re-sign Vizcaino or another RH set-up man, and let the rest sort itself out in spring training.
Nice going Peter, guess you can’t do whatever you want on the net and get away with it!
Eh, if you want to ban someone from your blog for saying stuff somewhere else… ok, I suppose you’re within your right to do so, but to refer the matter to IT security seems like a bit much. I don’t read the comment section enough to really know, but it seemed like Miller was the one who posted the stuff about A-rod before it was announced anywhere else and it looks like it turned out to be true.
Tseng,
Chucklehead Miller got banned for impersonating the real Miller.
where IS the real “miller” we haven’t seen him lately, have we?
Love the Wang haters. I remember when the Yankee’s ace was a 19 game LOSER. (Tim Leary 1990 anyone?)
Like Mark Twain said, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”
Ahhh, ok, thanks for clearing that up for me mel.
Quote from Buster Olney:
“Say you are looking for a frontline starting pitcher. An ace. Somebody capable of helping to lead your team into the playoffs.
You could back up your organization’s truck and offer two Grade A prospects and a couple of Grade B prospects and call the Minnesota Twins about Johan Santana. And if you arrange a conditional deal with the Twins, you would have the opportunity to try to convince Santana to waive his no-trade clause. That could cost you merely the largest salary for any pitcher in the history of baseball: six years, $150 million, on top of the $13.25 million he is owed for next season.
Or you could back up the organization’s truck and offer three or four prospects for Oakland’s Dan Haren. No strings attached, no no-trade clause. And here’s the really good news: You would have to pay Haren just $4 million for 2008, $5.5 million for 2009, and he has a $6.75 million option for 2010.â€
————————
I don’t agree with a lot of what Olney says, but this is one thing I’ve felt from the beginning, and he’s put it into words beautifully. Haren is almost as good as Santana, is a legitimate ace, and you’d probably only have to give up half of what you’d give to get Santana, and you’d save $15+ mil a year.
My philosophy has always been to get the second best guy, because the second-best guy always gets swept under the radar while the best guy (who’s just a little better) gets too much limelight, too much money, and too many years.
Dan Haren isn’t the flashier trade, but it’s the smarter one.
(Same applies to Bedard, Kazmir, etc.)
Cashman and Chris Russo were speakers at a charity breakfast this morning together. If anyone heard Mike/MadDog today, did Chris have anything interesting to say about the Yankees that may have come from him speaking with Cashman?
Guiseppe,
as to your last post, ive said it here A MILLION TIMES and people never seem to listen or READ:
I WANT THE YANKEES TO TRADE CANO OR HUGHES (preferrably cano) to the twins for Johan. NOT BOTH OF THEM!
I dont know how many times i have to say that for people to stop saying that i want to trade both of them.
And the fact that you say the AL east has better hitting than the AL central so Johan wont be as effective on the yanks is a joke. The AL central has the indians, tigers and white sox in it. Those are three extremely good lineups – you are talking about sizemore, ordonez, thome, konerko, hafner, martinez, need i go on? Those three teams have also been pretty competitive the last couple of yrs and santana has to face all of them numerous times per yr. And yea santana has been an ace for the twins and they havent won. But that isnt his fault – without liriano and nathan, there is no pitching whatsoever other than him on the team. World Series winners almost always win with good pitching in the post season – Johan will give us that.
I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD SEE THE DAY WHEN I WOULD BE ARGUING WITH YANKEE FANS ABOUT TRADING FOR JOHAN SANTANA. ITS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!
so update me what I miss
Ichiro had been resigned.
Johan is your best choice.
We will get him.
Dave,
I believe pitching wins. If it’s Cano, I make the deal for Santana in a heartbeat. I do not trade Hughes for Santana. Yes, Johan is better but from what I’ve seen, I think Hughes will be something special. He has a great make-up, plus stuff and a good head. That is very hard to find. He’s also younger and a lot cheaper. I know Santana is great but Hughes is a deal killer for me. Cano on the other hand, I’d trade in a second for Johan.
I REALLY don’t want to see Hughes go. I know it’s for Santana, but there’s got to be a better way.
Yogi Berra is supposed to have said, “You can observe a lot just by looking!” With that, some random and trivial observations and no suggested conclusions on 11/27/2007 at approximately 10:47 p.m.(EST):
The Twins official website, in its transaction diary, is reporting that the Twins outrigted 2 lefthanded pitchers, William Domingos (better known as “Ricky”)Barrett and Errol Simonitsch to AAA Rochester today. Barrett is a 26 years old relieverand was a 7th round draft choice in 2002. He has pitched at AAA Rochester for all of 2006 and 2007, and his statistics make it look like he regressed a bit in 2007. Overall, he has a cumulative 3.38 ERA and 362 Ks in 344 innings over six professional seasons. Simonitsch is a 25 year old starter. He was a 6th round draft choice in 2003. He has never pitched above AA in 5 minor league seasons. Perhaps he was injured in 2007 because Baseball Cube indicates that he pitched only for the GCL Twins and for Fort Myers (A+) in 2007. Has a 3.42 ERA with 2.23 BB/9IP over his 508.2 innings of his minor league career. Don’t know that either Simonitsch or Barrett is anything special, but they are lefties, and it is unusual to see a major league drop 2 lefties from the 40-man on the same day. It is unusual to see a team “unprotect” a player from the Rule 5 draft after rosters are set (for purposes of the Rule 5 draft) on November 20, unless space is needed on the 40-man roster to add a better player. The Twins official website does not report that the Twins have added anyone to the 40-man roster since adding three other players on or before November 20 to reach a total of 39 players. After the outrighting of Simonitsch and Barrett, the Twins roster stands at 37, three below the limit, if you believe the official website, or at 38, two below the limit, if you believe the Minneapolis reporter who was quoted by the YES Network as stated by some comments above in this blog.
As many here have noted, the Yankees 40-man roster presently stands at 39, but the Yankees presently have Rodriguez, Posada, Molina, and Rivera on the equivalent of the NCAA’s oral commitment list. Not to mention the possibility of Pettitte, Vizcaino, or someone else for whom room will have to be found on the 40-man by the start of the season. I would think that the Yankees would want to firm up the status of Rodriquez, Posada, Molina, and Rivera sooner rather than later because one or more of them is going to regard it as an “insult” and back out of the oral commitment if all the Yankees can offer them is a non-roster invitation to spring training and a chance to play their way onto the team and into a $300 million dollar contract alongside Bernie Williams or Ruben Sierra! So, many have speculated that the Yankees may need to clear out a net of 3 to 4 players, maybe more, from their 40-man roster prior to spring training. In clearing out the excess from the 40-man, the Yankees would like to maximize the return value, but they don’t want the return value to further clog up the 40-man roster between now and the start of spring training. Do any of you have any thoughts as to what major league teams might have some room on their 40-man roster to accept the Yankees excess in quantity while still maximizing the total quality returned to the Yankees?
Some baseball people and many fans regard left-handed pitching a necessity even if it is not very good. Have you noticed the lack of left-handed pitching in the Yankee bullpen and at AAA and AA as the depth charts are currently configured?
You know, you don’t see many trades of AA and AAA contracts this time of year because the acquiring team normally has to face the possibility of losing the minor league contract it has just acquired in the Rule 5 draft.
Speaking of the Rule 5 draft, have you ever noticed that players who have just cleared waivers are rarely selected in the Rule 5 draft? I guess this makes sense in that you wouldn’t expect any major league team to select a player subject to the Rule 5 restrictions (must be kept on 25-man roster for all of following season) when every major league team passed on the opportunity to acquire the player on waivers for a similar price without the restrictions a week or so earlier. Of course, some teams might like to have a particular player either way but don’t have room on their 40-man roster for either a Rule 5 or a waiver acquisition.
Oh!, in my paragraph above regarding the outrighting of Simonitsch and Barrett, I forgot to mention what I am sure many of the astute readers of this blog already knew, that under the major league rules, to outright Barrett and Simonitsch today, the Twins would have had to ask waivers on them at least several days ago, and in the interim, every major league team would have had to pass up the opportunity to keep them under major league contract.
Yankees fans want Santana but want to give up NOTHING of value for him or dont want him at all. Apparently 28 is past his prime, he has faced no good competition, he sucks in the playoffs and he would add nothing of substance to this team cuz he only pitches every five days. Johan is the ace of all the aces.
Did Beckett have an influence in the sox winning the world series this yr? Did Randy have an impact on the d backs stealing a world championship from us in 2001? Would the cardinals have done anything last yr without carpenter? You may not need an ace to win a world series but it certainly doesnt hurt to have the best pitcher in baseball in your uniform starting opening day rather than the pitcher who blew it in the playoffs for it last season or lets say … carl pavano as your opening day starter.
I dont want to lose cano or hughes either. I love young talent. But to think we can get him for melky and horne is unrealistic. And I want to cry when i read fans write that they dont want to give up melky for santana. Well what would u like the twins to take from us graciously for the best pitcher of this generation? What will the fans reaction be if the twins took horne, tabata and some money for Johan? Melky isnt even league average – get over him! And cano will never be the superstar that jeter or posada are. Im sorry but he cant walk, he has no speed and at his age, his power numbers are what they are – 25 homers would be a huge yr for him. He is a doubles machine and he will win batting titles but again, YOU HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING TO GET SOMETHING PEOPLE. Hughes may be a future ace and he is a perfect fit in NY so i would hate to lose him. I hope cash sees how replaceable melky and cano can be and how regrettable a trade it may be if hughes turns into the new Santana which he very well may. I love u ppl who think we are going to get Johan for prospects and a bag of balls tho. The ppl that think melky is just too precious to give up for johan are priceless. Just think about what other teams may offer for the guy. Then, think about what u would give up for him – if the difference is staggering, you are being far too optimistic.
My life would have been complete if my honey nut ichiro was a Yankee.
Andrea, who said Hughes is going ?
Heyman said the Twins asked the Yankees for 1 of the 3 , plus Melky and another or two prospects… Heyman jokingly said “ok then sure take Phil Hughes and we’re on our way” the Yankees most likely will offer Kennedy instead of Hughes, plus Melky and 1 or 2 more prospects it could be Horne and Gardner or Gardner and Miranda or Marquez and Gardner…rumor is Santana wants NY and would veto a deal to Boston since he has a NTC and has expressed he wants to be in NY
Jackie,
That’s the funniest thing ever! Honey Nut Ichiro
Brandon-
Read the last part of the thread about the HOF, Bobcat & SJ44 threw out some fascinating insight into the Santana trade. Long story short, it’s very likely Santana ends up in pinstripes w/o giving up a boatload but some other deals need to go down involving Minny first.
Mel-
Would have been funnier if Jackie Martling had said that, would have been his funniest joke ever,
I will do that right now thanks BB
Sorry, Buddy. The only comedians named Jackie that I’m familiar with are Jackie Gleason and Jackee Harry. lol.
The Twins will likely not get “equal” value for Santana so the Yankees should just hold steady and be patient.
This is a business – not a swap meet. So if you have leverage over a team you use it. You don’t need to give “equal value.” You make the best deal you can.
The Yankees may have considerable leverage over the twins for two reasons
1. It seems that Santana may really want to play for the yankees. He has the full no trade clause and ultimately holds all of the cards becasue of it.
2. Not many teams have $150 million available to sign a pitcher. The Santana contract is similar to ARod’s in the sense that the market will be limited for a top talent because of price. Of the teams that could in theory pay Santana not many have the prospects that could match the Yankees.
The twins may be forced to make the following decision: take the best offer the yankees make or keep santana and take a shot in 2008 and accept losing him for draft picks next off season.
If what Jon Heyman said today in his column is true and the Twins would accept any of Chamberlain, Hughes or Kennedy plus melky and some other top prospects (Jackson or Tabata) the yankees should make this deal in a heartbeat.
I don’t give up Chamberlain or Hughes in this deal. I wouldn’t consider Cano. I try to use whatever leverage I have if I’m Cashman and build the deal on Kennedy. The Twins may have little choice but to accept a Kennedy/ Melky/ Tabata type deal because of the complexity of Santana’s situation.
Ultimately that type of deal is much better than draft picks. Remember draft picks aren’t that valuable to the twins because they don’t spend over slot. They drafted Ben Revere this year in the first round, a very light hitting infielder purely for financial reasons. It was perhaps the biggest reach of the entire draft.
If the Twins are already thinking of Kennedy as being in Chamberlain/ Hughes class than all the better. Cashman grouping them as the “Big 3″ worked.
Make the best offer with Kennedy as the centerpiece. If the Twins decide to hold onto Santana that’s not the worse thing in the world for the Yankees – they can sign him next year.
Darn! I would have loved to have Ichiro banging out hits in Yankee Stadium. Plus the guy has a heck of an arm. Damon in left and Ichiro in center would have covered a lot of ground.
I’ve learned a lot about trades today. Apparently, you give a list of who you’re willing to give up. You don’t just say “Hey how’d you like these spare parts?” Like someone said earlier, it’s not who the Yankees value, it’s who the Twins value. As someone else said (Bobcat?) the Twins have starting pitching, they need position players and to restock their farm because they’re pitching prospects are hitting the big leagues now.
waiiiit, Ichiro in left? What about Hideki? Ichiro leading off, then Jeter, Bobby history, Damon, well, who knows where… oh god, I’m going to cry again.
ok I read it all thanks BB
I still see this deal …
Ian Kennedy
Alberto Gonzalez
Brett Gardner
Juan Miranda
Alan Horne
for
Johan Santana
Reported — “…..The Yankees have offered a package that does not include pitcher Joba Chamberlain, and they are awaiting Minnesota’s response.”
Source — NYTimes.com
I think Kennedy, Horne & either Tabata or Jackson & maybe something else.
The Twins have very good young pitching. That’s why for them the Garza – Young trade makes sense. Garza is an outstanding prospect who very, very few teams would ever consider trading for a position player prospect, even one as talented as Young. He’s a top 15 type prospect. Ridiculous numbers in the minors and very good stuff. A shade below the Chamberlain/ Hughes/ Kershaw/ Buchholz level.
The Twins need for position players makes them theoretically a good fit to trade with the Dodgers or the Mets. The Dodgers may not want to pay him and Santana may not want to play for the mets. Supposedly Santana isn’t that keen on Boston and they won’t trade Ellesbury or Buchholz anyway (I wouldn’t either). Also, does a 7 year $150 million deal for a pitcher sound like a Theo kind of deal?
I do not want Phil Hughes traded in this deal. That would be a deal breaker for me.
CB,
I agree, no Hughes. In fact, I’d even be hessitant to include Kennedy. I’d certainly give up one of Jackson or Tabata, Horne and I’d even be willing to center it around Cano. Hughes showed me a lot last year and I want him around. Swapping Santana for Hughes is less impactful than adding Santana in with the young kids.
The Yanks have offense, and building pitchng depth is the best bet to get them to win a world championship again.
Santana has said he wants to pitch for the yankees…. full no trade clause…. the yankees can offer kennedy-melky-horne and if santana says the yankees is the only team he’ll go to they either accept it or lose him to FA and get nothing
YankeeJosh if it came down between Action & Tabata or Kennedy, I’m sorry Kennedy packing his bags to Minny for me
I wonder if the Twinkies trading for Delmon Young hurts the Yanks? The hated BoSox are appartently unwilling to part with Elsbury. (who can blame ‘em, , I feel the same way about Cano)
Heyman is saying we can trade Kennedy Cabrerra and a prospect for the best lefthander in the game. . . . I say YES.
If we can keep Tabata or Austin Jackson by giving them Hughes over Kennedy that is ok by me. I want the best pitcher in baseball in pinstripes now that we have the best hitter of all time close to our heart and wallet!!!
I can’t see the Yankees giving up Hughes before one of the young OF.
Dave,
Once again, you don’t get it.
I never said you wanted to give up Hughes AND Cano for Santana. I said you would be willing to trade either of them and that’s crazy.
Yes, both Cleveland and Detroit were considerably better offensively this season (as opposed to 2005 and 2006) and Johan Santana’s numbers against those teams in 2007 got considerably worse. That’s not at all a coincidence.
Find a way to spin these stats, Dave.
Santana vs. Tigers in 2007: 1-3, 3.65 ERA
Santana vs. Tribe in 2007: 0-5, 4.38 ERA
That’s not good when a dominant “ace†like Santana – who is supposed to be the best pitcher in baseball – was a combined 1-8 against his top divisional rivals last season and now wants $25M a year to play on the biggest stage in baseball.
And you’re WRONG about the White Sox. They had a very good offense in 2006, but couldn’t score runs to save their lives in 2007.
BTW, here are Santana’s career numbers at Fenway: 1-3, 6.89 ERA, 1.85 WHIP
The Yanks are better off keeping Hughes and their young talent.
Yankeejosh,
Ultimately pitching is what wins and I think Kennedy is going to have a very successful career. Some guys are more than the sum of their parts and Kennedy has done nothing but dominate at every level since he was in high school.
That said if the Yankees didn’t even include Kennedy I’d guess the twins would just squash the deal. If I could hammer the twins and keep kennedy I would. But I don’t think that’ll be feasible for PR reasons. Kennedy is now considered a top 15-20 type prospect. The Twins can at least claim that.
On Cano – you can’t trade him if you are the yankees becasue of the significant lack of balance in their minor league system between right handed pitching talent and position players.
Outside of Jackson and Tabata they don’t have any real blue chip type positon players of value (gardner and Miranda are not blue chipper). One of them is going to go in a Santana trade.
The Yankees have tremendous depth in young right handed pitching – they should use that to fashion a deal rather than trading Cano.
Also heyman said that the twins don’t want cano – he’s going to be arbitration eligible soon and they don’t want to pay him.
I am surprised that no one has made the comparison here to when the BoSox got Pedro. I think he was 27 (Johan is 28). Pedro came from lower revenue city that could not keep him and they have about the same amount of time in. He helped raise them and I think Santana helps us. I don’t care for Rowand because I think Melky is the same guy as him in 3 years. But it seems they are set on this. Also no way on Haren unless we could get him for a song, because his average against is not good enough to warrant more for another righty.
I appreciate people who like Hughes and IPK, but I think people need to place some more value on a sinister (in the old fashioned sense) aspect of Johan.
He is a LEFTY!
The old ballpark in the bronx is built for lefty pitchers – which is why Pettitte has been tremendous and if we were willing to give up the store for Randy Johnson, a washed up great lefty, we should back up the money truck for a lefty in the prime of his prime.
So maybe Hughes or Kennedy is Brandon Clausen or maybe he is great, but I will root for getting the 2 time Cy Young winner if it can be done reasonably.
I doubt Hughes, Joba or Cano are getting traded for Santana. This is a 1 year rental deal (Santana is leaving them anyway), and therefore the Twins are not negotiating from a point of leverage. We should only give up what is worth 1 year of a Santana rental.
Melky Yes, Kennedy, Possibly, but I bet we get it done for less.
Neither Tabata or Jackson would make giving up Hughes over Kennedy worth it.
Losing Tabata or Jackson would be painful but they can find outfielders in the free agent market or in trades like the abreu deal.
People are really forgetting how good hughes is.
Before anyone things of trading hughes they should read the following article from hard ball times earlier this year. It recaps Hughes career and puts in context with other comparable players at his age. It will make your jaw drop.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....ip-hughes/
Dan is right!
They can’t just let him walk at the end of next year!
If he wants NY he just holds out (does not approve the trade due to the clause he has) and they have to take the deal at worst by the All star break. They would have to take the guys assuming it is somewhat reasonable but we could get him pretty cheap at that point (in terms of who we give up not the $ he gets). Cash and the Steinbrenner’s need to practice some patience and restraint here. If Santana want’s NY we have a ton of leverage by waiting.
CB, IDK I wouldn’t agree w/ that Tabata and Jackson could be the future OF for the next 12 yrs. I mean quite frankly I’m tired of getting run down OFs, I’d rather keep Action and Tabata over Ian Kennedy, I can say that w/ alot of confidence
I like Hughes too, and in a perfect world we would keep him. But I cannot see the Yanks starting the regular season with Joba, hughes, and IPK, rookies all, in the rotation.
You have a $200M payroll and a 13M rotation (10 of that is Moose!?!?!)
No way.
Giambi’s contract is expiring, Abreu is short term money, so is Godzilla. All of a sudden we have young talent in the system. (THANKS B CASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Let’s get the best Josh Beckett clone available!
over $110 million come off the cap in the next 2 yrs.
Brandon,
The issue isn’t keeping Action and Tabata vs. Kennedy. The issue that came up was this:
Trading Kennedy and jackson or tabata
vs.
Trading Hughes and pulling the outfielders out of the deal.
This is all speculation as I have no idea if that’s an issue.
But if it was I would trade Kennedy and jackson or tabata rather than giving up hughes.
I do think Hughes to the yankees is more valuable than Kennedy + Jackson or Tabata.
Jackson and Tabata are terrific prospects but neither has even played AA.
I think Hughes is going to be very special. What we saw out of him for most of last year was an aberration because of the injuries.
Action Jackson is ranked highly by scouts: Check the posting on
http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....fault.aspx
CB, if Santana wants NY and has told his friends “I want NY”..has made it clear, Boston may have just slid out because Santana’s NTC, there is a reason Minny has told NY 1 of the big 3, Melky plus a prospect (meaning a throwin) they know they have no leverage here, Santana for all we know just wants out and to NY and Minny may just want to save face, if we get him for Kennedy, Melky and Miranda or Horne or Marquez, I’m not going to ask why did Minny do this ? that’s the feeling I get here
Jackson is a terrific prospect. There is no doubt about that. Baseball Prospectus had him rated as the best prospect in Hawaiian winter ball – even over Matt Weiters.
I would do everything I could to keep Jackson. But that’s the type of player Minnesota will want.
For me I don’t trade Hughes under any circumstance. Even if it means I have to include jackson in the deal to get the twins off of hughes and accept kennedy. I think Hughes is in the same class as Chamberlain in terms of young pitching.
To me the real question is who do you trade if push came to shove – Jackson or Tabata. That’s a difficult question.
Does Melky, Kennedy, Jackson, & Horne get the deal done?
Also, what about this rumor that the Yankees are interested in Rowand?
http://www.waswatching.com/arc.....nd_co.html
Brandon,
I agree with you – the twins may not have much leverage. I’d give them as little as possible.
So if I could take Jackson/ Tabata out of the deal and expand the trade to include more pitching – horne for instance I would.
However, at some point Minnesota doesn’t need more pitching and there is a real value to the Yankees getting Santana for the 2008 season.
The twins don’t have leverage but they aren’t helpless.
If you were Bill Smith there has to be some point where you think I’m really not getting what I want from the yankees – I have santan and liriano is coming back. I’ll take a final run at the World Series.
I mean I’m listening to the radio right now and people are like well I don’t believe this deal is going to happen, why don’t the Yankees throwin Joba and Cano or Huges and Cano I’m literally laughing at this, the point of negotiations is getting the one up on your competition heck when Tampa got Kazmir for Zambrano TB didn’t say well why is this happening why not… NO…. man if they get it done which I’m thinking they will it might look like this
Ian Kennedy
Alberto Gonzalez
Brett Gardner
Juan Miranda
Alan Horne
for
Johan Santana
And if it happens I will look for my wine bottle and bath myself naked w/ it
I just don’t get these kinds of thoughts around here. Hughes/Joba/Kennedy are still very unproven pitchers but people on here want to hold on to them for dear life. There is a great chance that the three of them never wins 100 games in their entire career. Young pitchers constantly get hurt.
When the Red Sox traded for Pedro Carl Pavano was the 9th rated prospect in the nation by Baseball America and Tony Armas junior was also a highly rated prospect and looked what happened with the two of them and with Pedro. Anyway, I know I’m preaching to the choir. For Tim Marchman’s take on the Santana trade thing read here.
http://www.nysun.com/article/67008
Brandon,
I hope you’re right. But if that’s the trade it would be borderline criminal. The twins don’t need Miranda – Morneau’s at first and miranda’s value as a DH is limited. Does Gonzalez really mean something to them? Or gardner.
That trade would essentially be Kennedy and Horne for santana. I’d be very surprised if that gets done.
They’re perhaps trading Matt Garza for Delmon Young – that speaks volumes for how much they want position players.
I think they’ll want Jackson or Tabata along with Kennedy at a minimum.
Guiseppe,
Where r u looking for these stats- those are NOT santanas career numbers against the sox. In 55 innings, he has a career 3.40 era against them which isnt bad at all. His mediocre numbers against cleveland arent even that bad and are just because he had a mediocre yr all around last yr. And his mediocre yr was an outstanding yr for any other pitcher in the league. Santanas mediocre yr is as good as any of wangs best yrs. And his 3.6 era against the tigers is not bad at all. Im not arguing with u about the yanks acquiring the best pitcher in baseball any more. If you cant see how santana will help the yanks at age 28 and in the prime of his career, you just dont know much about baseball.
If I’m Bill Smith Johan Santana isn’t a free agent and I would have gone after hitting, I’m not poor if I’m Bill Smith and would have offered more than a low ball offer of $80 MIL
Pohlad is the one who doesn’t want to pay Johan, look at the mess Bill Smith was keft to clean up.
well same goes if I’m Pohlad
“I just don’t get these kinds of thoughts around here. Hughes/Joba/Kennedy are still very unproven pitchers but people on here want to hold on to them for dear life. There is a great chance that the three of them never wins 100 games in their entire career. Young pitchers constantly get hurt.”
I read Marchman’s column. There’s no absolutes here. Only trade offs.
Valuing Santana highly is a fair point. But pitching as a whole is entirely unpredictable – see Mark Prior who was the best pitcher in baseball before Santana’s run.
Just as people may overvalue prospects people also tend to severely over rate how well Santana is likely to pitch for the yankees over the next five years.
People don’t discount how pitching performance decrease with age. They think the yankees are going to be trading for Santana as he was at age 25-27. That may not be the case. That’s possible but in fact the odds are highly against it.
For an excellent analysis on what Santana to expect I highly recommend this article before discounting the value of younger pitching due to the risk of injury.:
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/changeup/
People who think we can get Johan Santanna for a pile of prospects are living in never never land.
We are going to have to give the twinkies something they can sell to thier fan base. Not 10 guys who look ok in a uni.
They need a pitcher, a CF and a prospect. Fill in those blanks and I’ll tell you if I’m in. But any name but Joba and I stay at the table.
If we can get by w/ losing IPK over PHranchise, then great – but I make the deal either way.
I’ve read that article already and if Santana pitches like his contemporaries have pitched for the next 6 years with the Yanks I’d take that in a minute for any one of the big three. Santana is a known quantity. The Yankees three not so much.
IP ERA+
Greg Maddux (’95-’00) 1,407 169
Roger Clemens (’92-’97) 1,255 150
Bob Gibson (’65-’70) 1,667 146
Kevin Brown (’94-’99) 1,322 145
Curt Schilling (’96-’01) 1,353 138
Tom Glavine (’95-’00) 1,378 137
Jim Palmer (’75-’80) 1,632 131
Gaylord Perry (’68-’73) 1,911 131
Exactly TK.
Kennedy, Horne, Tabata or Jackson will get it done. Throw in Melky if they don’t get Delmon or Crisp & swap out Tabata or Jackson
Dave,
Sigh. Those numbers I posted were Santana’s career stats at Fenway.
Ya know, that rival park with the big Left Field wall? Yes, that one.
As I said, both Cleveland and the Tigers were better offensive teams in 2007 and Santana’s number against them declined. You say his numbers “aren’t even that bad†against those teams – but I expect dominance against his primary division rivals for the talent the Yanks will have to give up combined with the $150M dollars to keep him.
Santana is going to be 29 years old by Opening Day – not 28 years old. I don’t care how old he is today if he’s not going to throw another pitch until after his next birthday.
He is not going to be the same dominant pitcher with the Yanks that he was in Minnesota. If you can’t see that – I can’t help you to understand.
Keep Hughes and Cano. Trading any of their best young players and $150M for Santana is not worth it.
raymagnetic,
Why is Pero Martinez not on that list? That’s the entire point of the article.
The point of that article makes is how select that group of pitchers is and how statistically speaking its unlikely Santana will.
Yes, of course if you knew now that santana was going to pitch to at least a 130 + ERA you’d do the deal. But you don’t have that hindsight before you make the deal.
The point is you don’t know if he will. Chances are he won’t. That’s what that article is saying. If only 8 people have continued to pitching to a ERA+ of 130 or better from ages 29-34 it’s not real likely Santana will..
Also remember this – another key point the article made was that Santana has pitched to an ERA+ of 158 before this past season which was his “worst.”
In general the santana people think they are getting is the santan of the 158 ERA+ not the santana with the 130 ERA+.
How many pitchers have pitched to a 158 ERA + from ages 29-34 – only one
Since 1957, 29-34 Seasons, 1,200 Innings with a 158 or better ERA+
IP ERA+
Greg Maddux (’95-’00) 1,407 169
Could Santana be the second? That’s theoretically possible but really not likely. That’s the whole point – if only one person has done something since 1957. Or for that matter if only 8 have pitched to a 130 ERA + from ages 29-34 (never mind ages 37 the age santana will be signed to) there is a considerable chance Santana won’t due to injury, etc.
Chance
Ian Kennedy, Alan Horne, and Melky Cabrera. I wouldn’t trade anything more than that
The deal is probably going to look like Kennedy, Jackson, and Horne. I can’t see the Yankees giving up Melky and AJax in the same deal. Kennedy and Jackson alone would be a pretty good haul for Minnesota, as the get a solid, cheap starter and a future All-Star center fielder.
I just don’t see any way the Yankees give up Hughes.
Yeah Hughes is 21 thats nasty.But to me I would do Kennedy,Melky,Horne and Gardner.That would be perfect.
If they can get any deal done without giving up Hughes, Tabata or Jackson that would be surprising but more than welcome.
I’d guess they’d have to give up either Tabata or Jackson. I can’t see the Twins not getting at least one blue chip position player in the deal. Neither melky nor gardner have that kind of upside.
Not sure what the twins would do with both Melky and Gardner as the value of both is really tied to them being able to play center.
If it takes Hughes, the Yanks should tell the Twins to buzz off. Hughes is the next great Yankees starter. He’s core and we need to keep him. He’ll be better over the next 7 years than Santana.
David-
Maybe 7 years but not in the next 5 years.I mean he is in his prime.I mean a year before half of yankees fans were all in on Clippard.I know Hughes is better but Santana is one of those one in a lifetime players.Espcially in his prime.
pavano for prior.
make it happen!
knucklehead3k
pedro was 35 and 36 when he stopped making 30 starts per season. Also, i think santana is less injury-prone then pedro due to body-shape and mechanics. Pedro has no body to land on when he is throwing 98 mph whereas Johan does. Not to mention, at 35 and 36, Johan’s deal would be in its last yr with the yanks and we would sign him from 28 to 35. There was only one season before age 35 where pedro didnt make at least 29 starts – 1 consecutive yrs and in his 12th at age 35, he made 23 starts. So looking at pedro and saying that is why we shouldnt sign Johan doesnt make any sense.
Lets take this as the first sign of- what hank wants, hank will get.
hank wants johan and like his father,were going to get him
What a hectic off season so far.
BC needs to hold steady, and wait it out. It’s like a game of chicken; he cant be afraid to lose.
Kennedy, Horne, Melky, and a prospect (Tabata or Jackson) should be more than enough for the Twins. You get 2 MLB ready players, including your everyday CF and a starting pitcher, plus two high ceiling prospects.
and i would take a chance on Prior… trade a Sardinha/Justin Christian type with a Clippard/DeSalvo/Chase Wright type, and then let Prior rehab as long as he needs. High risk, but high reward.
I know… This offseason has made me expirience a number of different feelings.
I feel like I’ve broken up with my longtime girlfriend, losing Torre, but quickly replaced her (uhh, him) with a Perfect-10 model in JGirardi.
Watching A-Rod, Po and Mo all JUST ABOUT LEAVE and then return was like watching my best friends go on a permanent vacation while I’m stuck at work.
Now, it appears the NYY are about to get the best starting pitcher in the major leagues, and for a reported price of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, Alan Horne and Jose Tabata?
Ridiculous…. Christmas has come early for Yankees fans !
What a crazy offseason…
Someone needs to tell Fredo…, er.. A-Rod, while we are quoting The Godfather trilogy:
“A-Rod, you are my brother and I love you, but Never, ever, side against the family again. Ever….”
“A-Rod, you are my brother and I love you, but Never, ever, side against the family again. Ever….â€
YES!!!!
It’s very possible that a Rays deal of sending Delmon Young to Minnesota for Matt Garza can light the spark of a Yankee deal for Santana.
This solves one outfield question for the Twins which would lessen Boston’s chances of Crisp going to the Twins. Any of Melky, Austin Jackson, or Brett Gardner is more suitable for the frugal Twins versus the $ 11M due Crisp. Boston would then positively have to use Buchholz and Lester or no deal.
It’s not believed that Santana and his agent will be receptive toward going to Boston. Not his kind of town or team.
Turn Two–
I agree on the Prior bit… If they non-tender him (which they may), then the NYY can pluck him off the scrap heap for nothing…
If they want a low level, four home-runs-in-a-row guy like Chase Wright for Prior, then sure… Why not…
He’s 27, and if they give him time, maybe he could be a #5 starter or even a long relief/ setup man…
I agree…
But I am, pissed today… A pretty light load on my SECOND favorite website, Prosportsdaily.com, just a story about how the Sawx are ‘going hard after’ and ‘aggressively pursuing’ Johan Santana…
Please…someone tell The Boston Herald to grow up and smell what they shovelling…
1. Theo (much less John Henry) would never committ $25 M to one player a year over 6-7 years. They just did it with BUST-K, if you factor in the posting fee, and now there own fans (the real ones) compare their spending to the Yankees.
2. They balked at Jacoby Ellsbury being involved in the deal. Lets face it, they got robbed in the Coco Crisp deal, and now that they have a bonafide solution in CF with Ellsbury, they will not trade him for a SP, which is their wealth. They will send Coco off for a backup C or a bullpen arm, to replace the ex-Red Sox great, Eric Gagne.
3. Leftys get hammered in Fenway… I just don’t see Johan wanting to pitch in a bandbox like that, regardless if Ortiz is there or not… Who cares if Randy Moss and Kevin Garnett just moved to Beantown, like Johan was best friends with them.
4. Just to add, for fun, I’d like to kick Tony Massarotti in the neck and punch Jackie MacMullen in the back. And I’d step on Bob Ryan’s gobbler (adam’s apple) if given the chance. What a bunch of negative people.
Now, Gordon Edes, Dan Shaughnessy (who hates Curt Schilling, gotta respect a guy that hates ‘Table for One’ Schilling) and Nick Cafardo are allright…
But they don’t stand a chance against Pete, Tyler, Feinsand, Kat, and so on….
Any Yankee fan that thought this offseason would be boring were only kidding themselves and improvements are not close to being done.
Has anyone ever seen Kat O’Brien? Is she hot?
A woman with vast knowledge of the Bronx Bombers fires up my hot stove, if ya know what I mean!
If she’s at least a 7 or better, whoever she married is a lucky man. Think about it…
Husband: “How was your day honey?”
Kat: “Oh, great… Pettitte pitched eight strong innings, Jeter and A-Rod homered, Posada picked off two potential base stealers and Joe Girardi gave me an exclusive interview about why he hates the Red Sox so much ! And then, I watched Johnny Damon pee on Carl Pavano in the locker room!!! What a day? How were the kids today?”
Husband: “Great– I love being a stay at home dad, married to a Yankees beat writer! I live the best life in the world…”
Okay…. Don’t know where that all came from, or where it was going… Must be the Heineken wearing off still…
Prior has too much upside, despite his injuries, to be non-tendered… he’ll get moved. and even if he can pitch a full 200 innings anymore, he could be thrown into a spot starter/long relief role and be very effective with less of a workload. imagine him as the swingman in the bullpen, in the place of Darrell Rasner or Jeff Karstens…
I’d even move a Jeff Karstens, plus another low level guy, for a chance at Prior.
TurnTwo–
You know, its funny… Don’t know if you remember this, but back in 2002 or 2003, I remember SportsCenter did a feature on Kerry and Mark, saying how they had their mechanics and pitching styles studied by professors at numerous medical schools and it was deemed that Prior had such an easy motion, ‘like a knife through butter’ this Harvard arse said..
Then they said because Wood was so big, with so many moving parts and a herky jerky delivery, he could face ‘potential injuries’ due to his motion.
But then they said Prior should ‘have a long career’ due to the effortless delivery of his pitch.
Now look at ‘em….
Bob Ley did the feature story on them… I’ve been trying to find it online for years now… They had Prior’s old coach from Stanford getting all these praises and accolades for teaching Prior how to pitch proper.
I think the Stanford coach’s name was Carl Pavano, Sr.
Shamus – i remember that FEATURE… Everyone speculates about hitters but i wonder if prior was spiking up, and is now off the juice… He had MASSIVE legs that he used to drive….
Look at the difference in leg size, especially calf size!
http://grg51.typepad.com/stero.....talki.html
EL Comaduce
It’s more likely that two idiots named Riggleman and Baker are to blame for the injuries.
absolutely – but pitchers get a pass because everyone thinks that juice has to make you huge… it doesn’t always… Dusty baker did like to leave him out there…
Imagine if Crazy Ol’ Jack McKeon managed Kerry or Mark… They’d be dead, or their arms would have gone on strike…
Look what McKeon did to Brad Penny, AJ Burnett, Carl Pavano, and so on… I say its only a matter of time until Dontrelle and Beckett begin to breakdown…
McKeon used the heck out of them during that 03 run…
Oh and good site about Prior’s calves.
I used to think he had legs like a hurdler, especially below the knees. Now he has sorry, little legs, a la my Irish chicken legs..
Those arms where getting whittled down from use until they resembled little smoked cigars.
Feinsand has a pretty good Johan piece up over at PSD.com. They must have put it up late, didn’t see it this AM.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo....._an-1.html
Watching a ‘roids user diminish is like watching the Michelin Man reduced down to Dustin Pedroia.
It is interesting how the pitchers are the ones who keep getting caught (mota, grimlsey)… Neither of them where monsters by any stretch…
Riggleman did that with Wood and carried it on to Prior.
What Riggleman did to Wood was criminal. He was finished for the year by September..26 games and 166 innings at the age of 21, after pitching 270 innings in the minors in 3 years because of arm problems. That 20 strikeout game in his 6th start, 23 games over 100 pitches including a few over 120. He did the same to Prior.
The only two I remember getting abused like that was Koufax and Spahn. Bragen and Alston should have been fired for some of that crap.
glad we have rules for the use of our pitchers
el comaduce
The worst I’ve ever seen was a game in 1963 Milwaukee in San Francisco, Spahn against Mar1chal. Cold, rainy. Game tied up into the 16th inning. Both starters still in. Spahn got the first out, them Mays homered to end it 1-0. It was bad enough that Marichal was about 25, but Spahn was 43. He went on to have a great 23 win season, but, was never the same. Never got more than 7 wins in his last two seasons. About 170 pitches in the game.
AJ Burnett didnt pitch for the marlin in 03, well 23 innings. Dontrelle pitched 160 innings and Beckett pitched 142. Pavano was the only one that pitched 200 innings, but he was 27 at the time…
170 pitches is crazy… Maybe wakefield could throw 170 pitches…
I am a wfan junkie – on the weekends they had a show on called talking baseball – there is a gentleman who would come on and discuss throwing – his program was based upon mechanics and workload and he claimed to be able to have high schoolers comfortably throw 100 pitches in a game. His school of thought was that if your mechanics are good – he could make pitching as rudimentary as walking..
“Riggleman did that with Wood and carried it on to Prior.”
Wood pitched for Riggleman his rookie year, then he was gone. Wood didnt reach 200 innings until his 4th and 5th season. Mark Prior never pitched for Riggleman, Prior was killed by Dusty Baker…
Well said Peter! Baseball was, is, and always will have a special spot in the consciousness of Americans. There’s still no sport that more kids play throughout this country. Every male has played little league ball at some point, right? And there’s still no easier fantasy to act out as a kid as stroking the game winning homer. As long as kids are running around imagined bases all across this country, baseball will rule. And as for the offseason banter, it’s perhaps the best advertisement for the free market approach preserved by baseball. Sure, a salary cap creates some parity, but the offseason in baseball is like no other!
These comparisons people keep making of the injury potential of Joba and Phil to Prior and Woods are just completely off the mark.
Whether it was Riggleman or Baker Prior and Woods were among the worst handled goldmine of talent in the contemporary baseball era.
What Baker did to them was absurd. Just criminal. Mark Prior did have perfect mechanics. When he was drafted out of USC that’s all anyone kept talking about. They were comparing him to Tom Seaver as the quintissential drop and drive pitcher.
Despite that the Cubs ruined him and Woods (woods started having arm trouble soon after coming up – may have been mechanics but the managers only hurt him)
Compare that to the way Phil and Joba have been developed? Yankee fans complain that they are too cautious but look at the alternative.
Prior and Woods and injuries is a straw man argument. No one today would handle prospects of that caliber in that way. The Yankees are the last organization that would ever do so.
Even this year – they are not going to let Chamberlain or Hughes throw 200 innings. They’ll increase their workload by no more than 30% I’d guess.
migames
My error. I missed Baylor in between, but, the main reason it tooWood 4 years to get in a 200 inning season was because of a season long injury and surgery after his rookie season. The point being, is that you had two HOF talents that had their careers ruined by a couple of idiots.
Thank God, NYY has two guys like Contreras and Patterson setting system wide guidelines for all pitchers and all levels.
So, there are a couple of articles in the NY papers that mention how the Twins’ asking terms for Santana have increased “significantly” in the past day or two over the “melky, hughes, prospect” offer that has been bandied about.
Nobody is talking about the new package they are asking for, though.
Does anybody know or has anybody here seen a rumor?
If it gets any higher than what it was, it becomes a bad deal.
Compare that to the way Phil and Joba have been developed? Yankee fans complain that they are too cautious but look at the alternative.
I would always rather be safe than sorry in the regular season – The Prior situation is just sad…
Paul V.– Apparently the Sporting News is recognizing a rumor from a site I have never heard about called Fantasy Baseball Mafia or something along those lines…they say:
“The Yankees have offered Cabrera, Kennedy and Tabata to the Twins.
Word is Santana wants to go to NY and the Twins have cleared three roster spots. Do the math. Hint Hint.”
This is only a rumor…please be advised….
alright, here is my question when it comes to woods and prior, now i REALLY dont know the answer to this, but if everyone says that woods and prior were driven to the ground by their managers (which i tend to believe) how did zambrano escape it? He pitched 100 innings in 2002 and then 200+ then next 5 years. He was 22 years old in 2003 when he started all of this. I mean, i dont know how zambrano is any different than prior and woods
el comaduce
Yep. The Cubs had Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver, Part II.
i thought about the zambrano thing that when the ‘wood/prior were killed by baker’ comments popped up a while back.
maybe a larger frame/bigger bones helped withstand the abuse?
as a yankees fan, let me say that i want Johan in pinstripes for the right deal.
but, tampa bay has a payroll of like absolutely zero when you factor in how much they receive from mlb.com (reportedly $30 million to each team), plus revenue sharing.
they are talking about a Delmon Young for Garza swap… why not go for it all? Delmon Young, Evan Longoria, Jeff Niemann or Jacob McGhee trumps Kennedy, Melky, and Tabata… it’d be fun to see, and with Johan, Shields, and Kazmir, they’d be at least legitimate in the AL East.
migames,
thats’s a good question. Off the top of my head I’d guess that even Dusty learned something from the Woods and Prior and didn’t let Zambrano’s pitch counts get into the high numbers he did with woods and prior.
there’s no rules with pitching – just probabilities. zambrano probably has better pitching genetics and mechanics.
i think the point is is that if you allow pitch counts to get into the high values and innings to jump a lot from season to season you are increasing the probability of a young pitcher getting hurt.
It wouldn’t have surprised me if Woods had serious elbow problems during his career because of his mechanics. Would they have been as devastating as they’ve been? I don’t think so.
Prior seems to be the really damning situation for the cubs. They guy was off the charts in every way. While they may not have caused his injuries they did not take precautions to minimize his risk for getting hurt.
It’s not the bones. It’s the tissue. Wood and Prior are pretty good sized guys. Both at 6’5″ and 220. The problem gets to be too much muscle. It’s more helpful to have a little fat tissue mixed with the muscle. You never hear of somebody with a fat strain or pull.
Turn two. I like competition as well and would love to see how the Devil Rays would be with Johan. I hope your just being hypothetical though. Johan has a no trade clause and would never waive it to go to Tampa Bay! Plus, I would have to think though that the Rays may want to hold onto as many decent players as they possibly can. I think quantity may be a little bit more important to the Rays right now than quality. But could you imagine Johan with the Rays??? I don’t think they would even be able to afford to field a team!!! But hey…maybe I could get a roster spot….
Turn2- regarding your trade proposal, aside from your assertion that the TB trio trumps the latest rumored yankee offer, you’re missing one key element-
Santana has a no trade clause. The Twins just can’t slot Santana into any deal without his consent.
i rather have EVA LONGORIA
I just believe a lot of young pitchers get hurt or don’t pan out regardless of how many innings they throw or are supposedly abused. No young pitcher threw more innings than the Rocket and he still had a pretty successful career.
of course it’s all hypothetical, but i just think it’d be fun to see.
Tampa has had the offense to contend for several years now, but their pitching is putrid. even a Johan deal would leave their bullpen exposed for what it is, which would be awful at best.
all 3 are 6’5″, but 220 is not close to whatever misinformation is listed next to Zambrano’s weight. 220 sounds kinda scrawny for 6’5″, no?
You also have to have a system wide philosophy…
if you push them in the minors you probably can get more out of them in the majors… If you give a give a huge bonus and then baby him in the minors – you cant expect things to change in the majors
Yeah. Somewhere in the back of my mind I think getting Johan is kind of unfair to other teams in the league but then I think that we deserve it because we have built the farm system up enough to be able to trade for him. So it isn’t like we are actually buying him. But we are because its going to take A LOT of money to lock him up for the next 10 years. Oh well. I’m already over it…
Saucy, I never mentioned Zambrano’s size. I never mentioned Zambrano at all. Only Wood and Prior.
I really don’t think it’s unfair to other teams if the Yankees get Santana. As many of you know other teams have money but just don’t want to spend it. Now I know the Twins owner has more money than George even if it is his own money and not the money they get from revenue but he is cheap and doesn’t take a penny out of his pocket and at-least try to and help his team. Same thing for the Dodgers,Angles to some extent……
Dont feel bad – There is a long list of owners who have much more money than George – Just as george said, even with revenue sharing, these guys dont spend money… They see there team as an investment – not a passion. SCREW THEM
God Bless George – he cares for the fans…
Pohlad has more money than Steinbrenner, he just doesn’t want to spend it on Johan ,Hunter & Nathan.
Where is the original Miller?
Buddy, did you see where Morneau may be the next to leave Minnesota, along with Nathan? The only player they’ll try to lock up will be hometown kid, Joe Mauer.
“Saucy, I never mentioned Zambrano’s size. I never mentioned Zambrano at all. Only Wood and Prior.”
i thought the original question was how come Zambrano didn’t get ruined from overuse while Prior/Wood did…
i need more coffee
saucy, it could just be that zambrano pitched every day as a youth.. In some countries, baseball is a religion… I am assuming Zambrano was not born here…
i agree
Before people decide phil hughes is expendable in this trade they should read the following article from the hardball times earlier this year. It puts hughes career and potential in context.
He’s not just a great prospect he’s a phenomenal one. people are forgetting this because of the leg injuries he’s had.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....ip-hughes/
i cant imagine losing Nathan, Yohan, and hunter in one year… There new stadium will be publicly funded. How could you gut the team the year before you do this… They should water board the owner
CB – THAT WAS A GREAT ARTICLE…
They will trade Kennedy – they will not trade hughes… He has been the gem of the system since being drafted…
I don’t know if he pitched everyday, but Carlos Zambrano is from Venezuela.
Pete:
I just read your post just now. I would like to inform you, I have not posted on this blog since last night. Any postings by any other “Millers” today were not me. I hope it was not me who you banned or are planning to ban because of some other A-Hole taking my username.
Also, I dont post on any other forums, Pete. Check my email address if you have to.
agreed