Twins get Young; Santana deal next?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 28, 2007 
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The dynamics of a possible Johan Santana trade changed just now as the Twins obtained Delmon Young from Tampa Bay as part of a six-player deal.
RHP Matt Garza, SS Jason Bartlett and well-regarded RHP prospect Eduardo Morlan went to the Rays for Young, SS Brendan Harris and minor league OF Jason Pridie.
Young has been a right fielder for the most part. But the Twins plan to use him in left. They still need a center fielder.
Trading Garza means the Twins almost certainly need to get a MLB-ready starter in any trade they make for Santana. Prospects won’t do it.
The question is whether they consider Ian Kennedy good enough or will hold out for Phil Hughes.
A bold team might be wise to try and make the Santana deal now rather than wait for the price to rise in Nashville. Offer them Kennedy, Cabrera and somebody else and see if they bite.
Boston won’t deal Jacoby Ellsbury and the Mets don’t have the pitching. The Dodgers could do it, but they’re focusing on Miguel Cabrera.
Welcome to the party, Pete. Some vacation, huh?
even though I hate the idea of giving up hughes… you have to make this deal…
mel: you know, part of me thinks Pete’s vacation was during, I dunno, maybe back in 2005 before he had the blog?
Seriously. I know next to nothing about baseball, especially if it doesn’t pertain to the Yankees, and my blog takes more of my time than my coursework.
Unless you start talking about my thesis.
Gotta make this deal maybe Kennedy,Melky,Horne will do it rather then Jasckson or Tabata.I think that will work since we can out bid anybody in pitching prospects.
Man, I don’t know. As many years as Santana wants is not like giving it to A-Rod. That’s a lot of money and years. We’ve come this far, I’d pass and keep the kids. Hughes was very good down the stretch when he built up his arm strength. Make the price come down. My untouchables are Joba, Hughes and Cano. Any other combo I’m sort of ok with it.
Pete-
Aren’t you following along with Bobcat’s posts, Nathan gets moved to the NL Central, then Johan to the Yankees for Melky, Kennedy, Horne & Tabata.
Hope you removed Bobcat’s impersonator, that dude is so lame.
There’s no way I’d give up Hughes. Sorry.
I don’t want Santana unless they would take Wang back in return.
I’d keep Hughes but if it’s just Kennedy you have to taske it.You need a for sure 200 innings some dominace.Wang and Pettitte can’t do it.Hughes and Joba aren’t going more then 160-180 innings at the most.
tterba…i agree, would rather give up kennedy and cabrera, but it’s worth hughes and cabrera if it comes to it…johan is that good. Hughes could very well be a career number 1, but he is still a prospect who has had some injuries, and a lot of “sure thing” prospects haven’t panned out. Even if he has a great career, its unlikely he will be the best pitcher in the majors, like Santana is now.
Santana on the other hand 1) has established himself as the best pitcher in the majors, 2)reportedly has a great work ethic, 3)loves ny, 4)loves pitching in pressure situations 5)is lefty, which is great in our stadium and for balance in our rotation 6)changes speeds and understands the art of pitching very well, which means he projects well as he ages and 7) is still in his prime.
Picking up Santana gives us a rotation of Santana, Wang, Joba, Hughes/Kennedy, and Pettite/Mussina, which would likely be the best in the majors, with the first 4 locked in for the long term, to go along with our outstanding offense.
I like Hughes and Kennedy (who I think is underrated) a lot. but I think Johan is one of a kind, and even if we have to give one of them up along with cabrera and another prospect to get santana it’s worthwhile. although i would still love to see us get him for less.
It looks like the dominoes are finally beginning to fall. It’s been a very eventful day on here and I can only imagine what tomorrow and the next few days will be like, especially when those GM meetings start. And Kennedy has come a long way and had a very good stint during his cup of coffee with the Yankees this year, will he be enough to satisfy the Twins? That’s the question.
Santana’s declining stats since his 17K performance makes any trade for him more than a little stupid.
Pete IS Bobcat. He just doesn’t want us to know he can’t actually go on vacation. He loves this blog too much.
its only one year of service from him and he can veto anything. We need to use just how weak the twins’ bargaining position is to our advantage. Don’t offer too much, and go for him next year If need be. If the twins want him dealt they have bite at less
I’m with Majamba. I can’t believe people are talking about trading Hughes. Melky, and Canoe okay, but please don’t trade Hughes.
J-dawg,
What we’re seeing from Kennedy, is very consistent with what we heard about him in college. SC came out to my neck of the woods and Kennedy was very, very good. Of course.
FOlks, we’re not saying trade Hughes for nothing.
It’s for Johan Santana.
Santana, Wang is a pretty sweet 1-2.
We can get Hughes back in a nother 5-6 years after his youth injury and his first CY. Don’t worry, after all the WS we’ll win with Santana, we’ll be able to afford Hughes.
Buddy:
Please don’t attribute the Santana trade scenario to me. I can’t tell you who will go. “It’s up to the Twins”.
Aren’t we really just bidding against ourselves here? If Santana wants to go to the Yankees, and insists on it, all we have to do is come up with a package that is a little greater than the 2 draft picks Minnesota would get when they lose Santana to free agency. The package buys us a year and the 72 hour window to extend.
It does not appear that we are bidding against Boston or anyone else if Santana will not accept those trades.
A package more than 2 draft picks, IMO, could be two or three AA/AAA pitchers/outfielders with serious big league potential… no more than that.
mel: How about Hawaii? BCS bowl or no?
No disrespect to Pete, but a couple of minor points:
1) Delmon Young will play RF.
2) The Twins feel they have the makings of a pretty good rotation on their own, with Slowey, Perkins, Swarzak, Smit and Blackburn waiting to move up.
3) The lists have changed hands. “It’s up to the Twins.”
mel- Kennedy definitely has great potential. His mental makeup seems to be sharp and I think that is very important. It’s too bad that he had back trouble during the playoffs. Looking back he would have been a great choice as a long reliever had he been healthy. I could just picture him coming in for Wang during Game 1 and mowing down the Indians to keep the Yankees in the game. He seems to have the kind of psyche to handle postseason pressure.
Man a pitcher has one bad month(Like 4 Era Pettitte and WAng) and people say he is declining at age 28.And when did Hughes and Kennedy becomes great pitchers in the major,how many innings do they have?When did we come to a point where we are comparing these yes great prospects to a future hall of famer.
SAve Hughes but Kennedy has to go in any pitcher deal.
J-Dawg: Let us not forget, if Melky could catch a ball, he could have no-hit Toronto in his second start…
Yeah, Hughes will just be counting the days to come back to the team that ditched him.
He grew up a Sox fan, remember?
Now that you’ve said it more than a few times, Bobcat, I am FINALLY understanding that our guessing, ruminating, anguishing over who or who should not be included on any list is irrelevant. The lists have changed hands. Whatever we have offered…we have offered.
I guess we fans just hope that the lists do not contain too many of the young players that we really want to see back in Yankee uniforms next year.
Sorry for not understanding until now.
Rebecca,
If we win and LSU can hold off Tennessee, I think we’re in. Sugar Bowl gets the last pick, so it looks like N’Orleans. Team doesn’t want to think past Washington who’s better than their record. They had the toughest schedule in D-I. Keeping our fingers crossed and waving those ti-leaves!
DadinIowa, I don’t think the Yanks know that for sure.
If there’s no 72 hour window, I say give em’ A-AA level prospects and call their bluff.
If there’s a 72 hour window (which there will be) then we have to play.
THe twins are taking the Nathan trade to the meetings. He has a ton of value, he’s cheap and good and a true closer.
If the Yanks were offering Hughes, something tells me the Twins would take it. Seems like the Yanks are offering Kennedy, Melky, someone else. The Twins are trying to not need Melky, because Melky stops them from getting more value from the Yanks. The Twins don’t want to NEED a CF or anything for that matter from the Yanks. They WANT our young pitchers.
We’re hearing some more rumblings tonight.
Apparently, there is some thinking on the Twins’ part that if they can solve the CF problem and add some pitching depth (not clear how much), they feel they will have MORE leverage with trading partners for Nathan if they can deal with him in a vaccuum.
That could very well mean that the Santana trade activity will intensify.
I’ll try to verify that in the next few hours. The Twins guys are still working on their compliance paperwork, so they’ll be around for awhile.
You are sure to read all sorts of mumbo-jumbo tomorrow morning. Remember… you will read what you are supposed to read.
It was more than a month.
He couldn’t throw all his pitches in the second half of the season. But you know that he isn’t injured.
Bobcat,
Can you speak to the accuracy of the report in the Times that the Twins rejected an offer by the Yankees that included Melky but NOT Joba? You seem to be saying that the Twins haven’t rejected anything yet.
whoa-
Business is business, if the Yanks want someone, they usually get him. They have more money than anyone else, remember.
The Yankee’s organizational strength is the depth of right handed pitching.
If Minnesota is interested in getting more very good prospects and take Hughes off the table.
Kennedy, Horne, Betances – what other organization is going to be able to trade those kind of arms?
Ultimately depth for the yankees is a tricky business. At the rate they are building the minor leagues they are going to have to use depth strategically. If they don’t they’ll have issues with the 40 man roster/ rule 5 draft and moving people through the organization.
Getting Santana is a perfect use of that depth. Hang on to the potential front of rotation guys – Joba and Phil – and trade more of the other arms.
In any other organizations guys like Kennedy, Horne, Betances would be at the absolute top of the organizations depth chart.
Again, Adam, at this point it doesn’t matter. The lists have been exchanged and whoever is on the list…is on the list. I have to think that $man will do all he can to not pay too much.
I will be heartsick if Melky is on the list, sad if Kennedy is , and worried if Hughes is on the list. (worried meaning that perhaps we gave up too much).
But, at this point, I guess that I am not going to worry about it. But, I will not mind if no deal is reached. I would rather have no deal than a deal that makes us older and weaker in the long run.
Question, for Bobcat and anyone else that wants to answer:
Should I go to class or stay here and listen to the rumblings and grumblings?
berra8,
from Bobcat:
Selig’s Yankee tax has changed the economics of baseball.
If I was Hughes, and I was dumped, I wouldn’t come back no matter what.
berra8:
Haven’t seen it. You read what you’re supposed to. Remember, “it’s up to the Twins”. They have their lists.
CB:
Now you’re getting it. No place to play them. Twins had the same problem. Solution: move Garza, fill from within, restock from without.
DadinIowa:
Yes, the lists are what the lists are. They don’t include anyone that the suits aren’t comfortable moving.
Rebecca:
What class is it and how early?
Rebecca,
Be a good girl and go to class. Just take your phone to class.
Bobcat,
Did you already say that Kennedy and Hughes are on those lists?
mel:
Chamberlain and Cano aren’t going anywhere.
Rebecca- Kennedy had it in full gear in the start at Toronto. He was in terrific form that night. That was one of the best duels all year between Kennedy and our nemesis, A.J. Burnett. Something tells me that Kennedy could have more flirtations with no-hitters along the way. They just might have to come while he’s pitching for another team. If the Yankees have to trade him to get Santana, that’s okay. But if nothing works out and they keep Kennedy, that could really be a good thing. Either way, something good is going to happen!
Ok, sorry to bother you Bobcat….but… since you’ve been on this blog so much…. is it safe to assume that you are a Yankee fan? Or, or you here because of the traffic of this blog and this is a chance to convey information to a lot of fans. Or.. both?
Bobcat,
That’s why I’m puzzled as to why the yankees would even consider trading hughes?
If the Twins are flexible in getting more arms from the yankees then if I were cash I’d never consider trading Hughes. Just give them more arms. Guys like Horne, Betances, etc. all have great arms but the yankees can replace them by paying over slot in the draft each year.
Getting a someone of hughes caliber has a lot to do with luck.
Arrgggghh!
Well, I’m fairly confident they won’t move them both in the same trade.
whoa
Maybe not a great second half at ERa of 4.04.But he still had at his worst a 3.33 ERa the whole year and thats more then you are getting from the pitchers we have now.And with this lineup SAntana is even more dangerous..
Remember Santana was upset for awhile about the Twins lack of action in the trade deadline.Maybe that affected his confidence.
Cash is very patient. He’ll wait out the Twins.
DadinIowa-
There is a list, yes. I bet Wang, Hughes, Kennedy, Horne, Sachez, Melky, Betances etc etc etc are on that list.
What I’m trying to figure out is the final list. THe 3-4 guys we actually trade. If Melky is involved, it stops them from getting someone else they’d rather have. If Hughes is in the trade, I doubt much else is. I could see, Kennedy + Horne in a trade with two others.
My point is, the Twins would rather someone else play CF than Melky. So they want to see if Nathan can land them a CF before they settle on Melky. Trading Nathan can increase the value of their Santana trade.
I do hope that Hughes stays, and I’ll miss Ian…But the bottom line is the Yanks need Johan and all the more important is that he never ever pitches for Boston…..Johan, Beckeet, Dice-K and whoever would spell doom for the Bronx Bombers…..So as needed as he is in the Bronx, it’s that more important that he never wears a Red Sox uni….Make the deal, spend those Yankee Dollars, and bring home A Johan Santana for Christmas…..
Rebecca-
Go to class we are all just saying the same crap over and over again.
whoa- If you’d turn down Yankee money, you’re a better man than me.
Bobcat, have you heard anything else about any other Yankee trades besides a Santana one?
Bobcat
Thanks for all of your time here. VERY appreciated.
You mentioned a less than 50% chance of Hughes being exchanged, and too, about 20 lists that is really “up to the Twins.” Does that mean that Hughes is on about 8 or 9 of those lists? And without telling us any names, have you had some access to those lists, or heard the constellations?
Not trying to be too pushy, here.
Pat,
Wouldn’t that be a hoot? Mid-December the Yankees hold a press conference to introduce the newest member of the New York Yankees, Santana Clause?
Bobcat,
Sounds like the Twins may now trade Santana before Nathan, that’s what you’re saying?
Rebecca- I agree with what Mel said. You should probably go to class, but be sure and take your phone. We might need you for something.
Adam:
You can’t figure it out. There are multiple lists of combinations of players. That is how trading works. Two teams agree on various combinations and then they mull over the ramifications (or get outside help to analyze the long-range impact) and then make a decision. The Twins have the perogative to pick a list.
CB:
They would trade Hughes if they HAD to. Circumstances would have to change to warrant that level of player being included. Circumstances are usually driven by the competition.
DadinIowa:
Some of both.
oh brother….^^^
I think the NTC will save Hughes.
I agree that a Johan, Becket based rotation would be trouble.
That said why are the sox not trading ellsbury? obviously theo knows how much santana means.
I can understand them taking Buchholz off the table like the yankees have done with Joba. But if there was any chance a Lester/ Ellsbury deal could be done why wouldn’t theo agree to it?
I know Ellsbury is going to be very good but you can be confident that he’ll never hit for any power. He’s nowhere even close to the type of player Hanley Ramirez is and the Sox traded him.
It seems like the Sox may be scared off the money for santana or the whole thing is a smoke screen and Johan will refuse a trade to Boston.
I just hope Bobcat announces when he is leaving. I’d hate to have folks stay up too late expecting replies from him after he has left.
Amazing blog today. More comments than many days when there actually are games being played.
Assuming this is the busiest Yankee blog, what is the second busiest?
Totally right, I think, CB
A smokescreen (nice Ellsbury Native American allusion by the way)
I think the Red Sox hold the cards here. The Twins covet Ellsbury (with good reason — that guy’s electric). If Theo OKs giving up Ellsbury along with Lester and another prospect, the Red Sox will likely get Santana.
CB,
Please don’t say that Ellsbury won’t hit for power. All kinds of freaks will come out of the woodwork and say that he hit x amount of homeruns with an injured wrist when he came up. Ugh.
Hughes and Kennedy?? NO THANKS.
Are you guys 4 years old? Why are you impersonating someone on a blog messageboard?
Bobcat-
I know I can’t figure it out. It’s like a really hard Sudoku at this point.
My point was, the list that includes Hughes is a “shorter” list.
The list that includes Melky isn’t as attractive as another one.
The Twins are trying to make it so their favorite list makes the most ssense for them. And, I think that’s a list full of B+toA- pitchers. I don’t think they want to take our position players.
DadinIowa
probably River Ave. Blues-thats a decent blog as well
no joba
bobcat is saying that johan would veto a trade to boston
boston is not a contender, surprisingly and thankfully
Attention idiots:
The software we use records your IP address. Posting slurs, etc. violates terms of service. I’ve banned assorted dopes tonight. So enough.
Meanwhile, I would trust that most of you would know better to believe what some anonymous joker is saying.
brian,
that “smokescreen” comment had nothing to do with a reference to ellsbury’s ethnicity. never crossed my mind.
mel,
very good point – that’s a painful can of worms to open! how bout this – he’s a line drive-gap hitter!
*giggles* Okay!
I have class at eleven and again at 12.30…
My phone has no internet, though. My dad says if I break mine I can get a new one, but only if I break mine, and I’m not that anxious to break it!
So one of y’all will have to text me updates. If you email me at rebecca@puristbleedspinstripes.com, I’ll give you the number, but I’m not posting it here
THanks Peter!!!
I keep hearing that the Twins are interested in inexpensive mlb ready players, that they need a third baseman, and that they need pitching.
What about Kennedy, Cabrera, Betemit, Mussina with a portion of is contract paid and one more prospect? I realize Mussina would have to agree, but his other option would be spot starting/long relief.
Pete,
Thanks. Impersonating is bad enough. But using ugly racial epithets is disgusting.
Brian:
For Hughes to be included at this point, it would mean the Yankees got impatient.
Pete:
Thanks.
CB,
The Sox would still have to give up Ellsbury AND pay Johan way more than they’re paying Beckett.
Looks like Pete deleted a lot of my posts. Interesting.
If Boston is out because Santana will veto a deal there, then is this not an artificial market being built? The Angels have the prospects, but want a bat. The Mets’ pitching prospects are suspect, to say the least. The Dodgers seem very content to hold onto Kemp, Billingsley, etc. So, what other team is a viable contender who could afford the $25 mil per year? In the end, the Yanks may actually be able to swing the deal with IPK.
Looks like Pete deleted many of my posts.
mel,
I completely agree – I’d have to think the money is a major factor for the sox. Perhaps the major factor. A 7 year $150 million deal never struck me as a theo kind of move.
Santana is absolutely positively not going to lower his contract demands. He has all the leverage and won’t give up free agency without it being worth his while.
I think this Red Sox involvement heyman keeps reporting is overblown.
If that’s the case who are the yankees competing with for santana?
The mets? After they got Young would minnesota want lasting milledge? Neither LA teams don’t seem like they are aggresively pursuing him.
Remember “we read what we’re supposed to read”
the Boston news tomorrow will probably be all about how the Sox are still in it. they can leak false info too. trying to psych out the yanks.
You know what I’m wondering? Which deal Twins fans want the team to make.
I wonder if they prefer the Yankees prospects to the Red Sox….
Off I go to the Twins’ MLB.com board!
Joba the Great:
Santana won’t veto a trade to the Sox if the Twins settle on a package from them.
Not me.
Bobcat
November 29th, 2007 at 12:56 am
Joba the Great:
Santana won’t veto a trade to the Sox if the Twins settle on a package from them.
Sigh….another fake Bobcat post. Can Peter help with this?
Then, again, it really comes down to whether Theo would deal Ellsbury.
Bobcat
Yikes. Ok, I misunderstood your earlier post about that veto. So are there any indications from the Yankees why Joba is more important than Phil? I don’t necessarily disagree; just curious as to why.
Bobcat already said several times yesterday and today that Santana isn’t very interested in playing for the sox. That was before the red sox trolls came out.
What a haze.
I agree Pete.
Trade Melky if you have to, go with damon, abreu, and matsui with duncan as the speller.
i also agree that we go hard after santana now and see if the Twins bite. if they don’t, look elsewhere and send him to the wolves that are the rest of the bidders.
I’m out folks. Happy blogging. See you tomorrow.
Ok, I’m going to log off for the night. Looks like Pete needs to sort out the bad posts from the good.
In the meantime, I’ll nose around and see what’s what.
‘Night all.
Bill Simmons said that there’s no way that Ellsbury. He’s way too valuable…to their female fan base. *giggle*
Sorry, I’m sleepy. The imposter put one over on me.
Ok, I see now. This is getting annoying for sure. Time for bed…
If Minnesota has decided to deal Santana first, I wonder if it means that they have decided on accepting one of the yankee lists? I don’t understand any other reason to deal Santana first, unless our alternative lists take care of fewer of Minnesota’s needs than a list provided by a NL Central team.
I really hope that team is the Cubs as my wife is a die-hard Cub fan and she deserves a world series appearance once in her life.
Bill Simmons also said that he’d trade Buchholz and Lester for Santana in a heartbeat.
Pete- we need registration. it gets dumb when people impersonate others.
Thanks Pete and Bobcat!
Joba The Great-
You are right.I don’t think the Dodgers are gonna pay Santana that money.I think The Mets will get Haren and Boston is just kicking tires seeing if the Twins are dumb enough to take Coco Crisp.
I agree with the registration. It’s unfortunate but needed. This blog has enough of a community now to not drop off with registration.
I think the quality of the posts are more important than the quantity at this point.
Ok, I need my beauty sleep too. Thanks all for your comments. Very informative and entertaining tonight. (sleep tight, don’t let the bed bugs bite, and if they do, say I love you and have happy dreams)
CB is right. Every other blog like this in the world requires registration of some kind. I got dibs on “~Adam.”
peace. goin to bed.
alright people I’m done tonight for any future Bobcats aka NYYFANS good night to you guys too and may a virus infect your computer..
THAT IS ALL !
CB,
Yeah, he said he’d do Lester, Buchholz, and Crisp in a heartbeat but no way to a Lester, Buchholz, and Ellsbury. As if the Red Sox would ever send away 29 Lapdances. He’s their Joba.
After the Gagne fiasco they’re probably going to stay away from rentals. LOL.
Ultimately, the money’s the issue for the Sox, though, in regards to Santana.
mel,
then who are the yankees competing against?
What? What part of all this was lies?
I would think and hope that Cash is smart enough to know when to take a Kennedy out of the deal and have to add Hughes. Since right now it seems like the Yanks are bidding against themselves it is definitely not a necessary now. Yanks will not know what it is going to take to get him until the Twins are serious and done with there other moves so they can put there 100% in making a deal. I would think it will be another week to 2 weeks until the Yanks have to get serious with an offer. But we will hear a lot of talk at the meeting next week. Boston doesnt have to include Ellsbury because they do not need Santana like the Yanks or need his salary.
CB,
I dunno. I’m preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. I’ve really grown attached to Hughes. He doesn’t have Joba’s stuff, but he’s got that Warrior attitude going. For a laid back Cali kid, he’s got a lot of grit.
Bobcat says that the lists have been exchanged and that Joba and Cano aren’t on those lists. He also said that the more impatient the Yankees are the more likely Hughes is the price we have to pay. But he also said that it’s up to the Twins at this point. If they have to placate the frozen masses in Minny, Hughes would be a good place to start. I’m so confused, but have no control over it, so I’m not going to worry about it. It’s just that I love to solve puzzles and mysteries.
After investing 250 million plus for the Dice-man, 60 mil or so DL Drew, and 24 mil ( $ ) for Lugo….Adding 125-150 mil for Santana their printing press would break down……Dough is an issue for Scarecrow Henry now-a=days……Besides if Johan wants Yankee Pinstripes , Yankee Pinstripes it’ll be……
Bobcat,
You really got those kids over on NYYFans upset. The only thing they could talk about tonight were you and not the proposed Santana trade.
Hughes can become a fraction of what Santana is if lucky.
Pat M.,
I agree with your logic. I’ll put the same question to you then:
Who is the yankees competition for Santana?
I honestly can’t think of one other likely team at this point other than take a flier.
It would be unreal to think that in 2 years Boston would give 2 pitchers $100m and then $150. I just can not see it.
Pete,
Just a quick note for the suggestion box.
We really need registration in here. I know you’ve considered it in the past and I think it’s time.
This blog has grown so popular and has so many good contributors that it’d be nice to know that when you, SJ, Miller, Bobcat, etc. post, it’s them posting.
Dude, Perez Hilton makes 45 grand a day off his advertising. Let’s get you that house in the Hampton’s.
I don’t think you’d lose any of the members you currently have.
The Sox are absolutely in a position to make the Santana deal. Lester, Crisp, and 2 other young arms probably gets this done. Maybe Delcarmen goes, maybe Masterson, Bowden, or Lowrie (3B). That’s a deal both teams will make, and it pretty perfectly addresses Minnesota’s needs (CF, 3B, starter, middle relief). However, the deal will be in the $22-$25 million range for at least 4 years (giving him the highest money per year so far might get it done).
The only real competition for Master Johan is the perception that Boston may really want him….The key as I see it, does Johan really want to pitch in NY ( BRONX )…..So no matter what names get tossed around, the Twins will need the Yanks to hang around, because it’s good for thwm, but in the end Johan can always say no….That’s when Cash no longer sits back and ups his offer ever so slightly…..DO NOT INCLUDE PHIL IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, but he has to obtain him…….
It’s been a very very nice afternoon and evening, with the exception of syracuse not knowing how to play defense.
Wrote 1400 words, reading this blog…but I am done for the night.
Play nice kitties.
Kiddies.
Growed ups.
I hope the twins don’t rip us off in this deal. We have some leverage here we should use it.
Crisp? His salary and poor performance? Why would Minny want to take that on? And Lester? Try Clay and Ellsbury for starters,
If this is breaking down into the yankees and no one else then they’d be crazy to agree to give up hughes in the final deal.
that would be bidding against themselves. I don’t see cashman doing that. it’s just not his way.
Giving up hughes would just be panicking. Through back channels they have to know if Santana really wants to play for them. And that’s what it seems like. Torri Hunter has said as much on several different occasions.
In the end if they are the only viable team and the twins demand hughes I guess it all boils down to the value of santana as a one year rental for santana to the yankees versus the twins desire to get more than draft picks.
If the twins turn down the yankee offer and that’s the only viable trade situation santana would agree to/ team that has the talent + money to get him then santana wouls stay and then walk as a free agent next year.
Giving up hughes to rent santana for an extra year seems poor thinking to me.
I just can’t see the twins ever walking away and accepting only draft picks, especially now that they are starting to reshape the team for the future. Once the season starts santana’s contract demands will only increase as he gets closer to free agency. They’ll get much less for him.
People need to stop talking about this trade in terms of a “rental.” There’s no way the Yankees will give up 3-4 high end prospects/rookies to have Johan for one year. There will be a window in which to negotiate a long term deal.
I’m hoping that the Twins like some minor league guys with lots up upside that i haven’t already figured on being in the bigs with us next year.
Crisp and Lester is not getting this deal done. Crisp makes 11 million over the next 2 seasons.
The Twins want nothing to do with players who make that kind of money when they can get a CF in Melky who would provide the same, if not better, performance for a fraction of the cost.
The Red Sox are either going to pony up Ellsbury or they’re not getting Johan.
If I were them, I’d trade Ellsbury.
It would guarantee them the division and a few more world series over the next few years pairing Johan and Beckett with Bucholtz, Dice K in the future.
Are they that bold? I tend to think they are, but all their hand wringing over trading Ellsbury might let Johan slip to the Yanks.
I think the Yanks have told the Twins take your pick of a list of players the Twins like and want and it’s up to the Red Sox to actually put Ellsbury on the table to stop this.
I think they hang on to Ellsbury. He’s their Joba right now. The fanbase would go beserk if he were traded.
If they put Ellsbury in the deal and he’s actually on the table, then Cashman and Hank will have to make a big decision about how far they’ll go to block Johan from Boston.
The Yanks have the players to do it.
It’s just a question of whether they are willing to pay that high a price to keep Johan out of Fenway.
blunkness,
Bobcat has explained that the Yankees are looking at it as a rental even though any deal would be contingent on a negotiation of an extension.
Why? Because the Yankees need to decide how much they’re going to give up to ensure that they get him for ’08. Too little? Then the Twins try elsewhere, hold on to him until the deadline, or take the picks if Santana signs elsewhere.
Furthermore, the fact that Santana can name where he wants to go actually helps the Twins. He’ll likely only go if a long-term extension gets done, right? Then the Twins would get better goods because the buyer would be getting a longer rental.
It’s never a good idea to make a deal to keep him away from your rival.
Make the deal because it makes the most sense for YOUR team.
Buying a million-dollar mansion because your neighbor just bought one is not the smart way to do business.
That’s what happened when the Red Sox got Dice-K and the Yanks got Kei Igawa.
How has that move worked out?
Frankly the ideal situation to me is Santana doesn’t get traded at all and the Yankees sign him after this season. The Yanks have the money and Santana seems like he’s interested in New York. In exchange for one more year without him, the Yanks could keep all the prospects. The problem of course is that another team could swoop in and grab him, sign him to an extension, and then no Santana at all.
Personally, I wouldn’t touch Joba, Cano, or Hughes. And yes, I know that might mean a deal doesn’t happen. I like Kennedy and would love to keep him but realistically you trade him for Santana. I’d hope that the other teams are out of it and make an offer of Kennedy, Melky, Tabata/Jackson, and a fourth good but not “Kennedy/Hughes/Joba” level pitching prospect. If they won’t take that then fine, final offer.
im scared….
“The Sox are absolutely in a position to make the Santana deal. Lester, Crisp, and 2 other young arms probably gets this done. Maybe Delcarmen goes, maybe Masterson, Bowden, or Lowrie (3B). That’s a deal both teams will make, and it pretty perfectly addresses Minnesota’s needs (CF, 3B, starter, middle relief). However, the deal will be in the $22-$25 million range for at least 4 years (giving him the highest money per year so far might get it done).”
Not a chance that gets anything done. Crisp really isn’t that great a hitter, isn’t young, and would cost the Twins money unless Boston pays the whole contract (which is possible). Lester is being very overrated here. He’s solid but this isn’t a potential ace like Hughes, Buchholz, Joba, etc.
The Yankee offer of Kennedy/Melky/plus isn’t THAT much better, but it is better. Melky would almost certainly be of more interest to the Twins than Crisp. Melky gets overrated but he’s a kid making minimum who at least has the potential to grow. Crisp costs money and what you see is what you get pretty much. Kennedy is about comparable to Lester I think. And I sincerely doubt the Yankees would fail to make a deal if the cost is Kennedy/Melky.
Now, if Boston throws in Ellsbury, then that may change things. They’re probably more interested in Ellsbury than Melky, and at the very least it would probably force the Yankees to HAVE to include Hughes (and even that may not matter, depends on which the Twins value more, the starter or the centerfielder). But without Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, or Buchholz, forget it, the Yankees can offer better without even throwing in Joba, Hughes, or Cano.
coco crisp is named after a cereal.
Me too Bronx Stop.
Just when I thought our days of trading away our best young players for expensive, past their primes superstars, were over. Here comes the Santana trade and Rowland signing. Sigh.
I dont get it. Why do we want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to destroy the depth we have suffered to build for a starter who could very well never pitch a better year than Hughes year again? Santana is in decline. Let the Red Sox or Mets throw away their futures.
I know a lefty starter would be good, but I’d rather go for Bedard. Please let Pettitte sign soon to stop this madness. We have to give Joba and Hughes a chance to be our 1-2.
Sabathia and Bedard will be on the market soon enough. And if we are just going for the best arm available surely we have to go for Haren instead. If the price is right I’d love to take a gamble on Harden as well. When healthy he is unhittable. And we have the depth to cover his annual 3 month DL stint. As long as he is on the mound in Oct.
Lets save our pennies and go after Texiera next summer.
And Pete, we cant consider Damon in centre and Matsui in left. The trainers at Yankee Stadium would quit in protest. It is just too risky.
Keep Melky there this yr. Bring Jackson on to either replace Melky next yr, (who trade value would be greater in next summers market) or to replace Abreu. Gardner should be a decent 4th outfielder in 09. Then Tabata should be around for the 2010 season.
Matsui can play the odd game in the outfiled this yr and once Giambi is gone in 09 he should be the full time DH, or split time with Duncan is he lasts the course.
And please dont let us trade away the best crop of catching prospects we’ve had in 10 yrs.
Few cents from me..
1. Can red sox afford to create difference between Santana and Beckett moneywise and distrub the Beckett psyche. Where Josh B gets 10 mil and Santana gets 25 mil.?
2. From payroll perspective how much they can afford this year and years to come?
3. If they loose few young players then how do they fill the rotation if anyone of the oldies like Schill or Wakefield get injured assuming they deal Clay or Lester?
Considering all these I think Yanks have better chance of landing Santana than Sox.
Having seen Cashman operate over the last two-three years, I’m pretty confidant that he won’t go crazy over ANYBODY, including Santana. If I were Cashman, my plan would be to offer Kennedy and Melky as the centerpiece of the trade, and other prospects of the Twins choosing (Tabata/Jackson, Horne, etc.) I’d push hard as hell to get a deal like this done, and when they say no I’d push again.
If it doesn’t work out, I draw the line and wait other options, which may very well include names like Haren, Bedard, Kazmir, or Sabathia. Taking the patient approach usually doesn’t go wrong.
I laugh at people who won’t trade Melky for Santana, but at the same time I’d draw the line if they ultimately demanded Hughes.
Also, I’d like to add that the Kennedy, Melky, Tabata/Jackson, Horne deal seems like the most agreed-upon deal by both Yankee and Twin fans right now.
Pleade don’t trade Melky! Pleade don’t trade Melky! Pleade don’t trade Melky! Pleade don’t trade Melky! Pleade don’t trade Melky!
Thats a good strategy Pete. Strike quickly before the meetings, try to sell Kennedy as the most polished ML ready pitcher and ship Cabrera and Alan Horne or Marquez with them.
Coco Crisp doesn’t help the Twins since they don’t want players who make money and if Boston won’t trade Ellsbury then there really isn’t many other teams that can afford his 25M a year asking price for next season as we already found out with the ARod sweepstakes.
Kennedy, Cabrera, Horne/Marquez or maybe even both, and tell them they won’t find a better deal.
I’d offer them Kennedy and Melky and give them the choice of 2-3 of the following—Sardinha, Wright, Rasner, Clippard, Desalvo, Henn or Bruney. I’d also offer Mussina with us paying half of his contract. I dont really see there being any reason CashMan cant do this deal without using Hughes. Kennedy and Melky give them two guys ready to go and if they take Rasner or some of the other guys they could use them either in the rotation, pen or AAA next season and have them locked up cheap.
If it took Horne and/or Marquez I’d sacrifice them as well.
FWIW, here’s a link to a nice chart, organized by team, showing player movement and signings so far this off season. Enjoy with your coffee while we sweat out the Great Johan Dilemma.
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/.....ermovement
Is there a chance a deal could be made before the meetings open up?
gianthinker
Why would anyone want MOOSE?
Moose had a no-trade.
Good lord, what happened last night? The impersonators came out of the woodwork!
Pete, you know your blog has hit the “bigtime” when folks from other sites come over and attempt to mess it up.
Its a shame really but, until registration is in place, its going to be hard to stop.
I think you need to talk to your editor about what to do during the season. Perhaps getting an intern(s) to monitor the blog will help.
Or perhaps you can “hire” (for a Yankee DVD set or something like that) some admins who are already blog members to monitor the blog in your absence.
Most of the impersonator activity occurs at night, when the kiddies are home from school.
Perhaps some of our night owl members can double as admins for you when the season gets underway.
Just some thoughts in an attempt to keep the blog as free from folks looking to mess with it as possible.
Don’t do it cash. Don’t give up the big 3 or the young guns.
I want to see the day when we field home grown Yanks again and I can see it now. We are there. Just a bit more patience. Thats how we won in the 90s and we need to focus on it again. We can still spot in players to fill gaps like ARod at 3b and RF in 09 (and 10) until Tabata is ready, but lets not sell the future on the cheap and open ourselves up to fighting injuries to old expensive guys.
We can be the envy of league again by growing “true Yanks” and letting them lead us. Focus Cash Focus!
Pete,
I know the paper wants to avoid registration like the plague as it drops posting by a significant margin from anonymous posters, but I would have to think that at this point, it would be worth the loss of some posters versus the gain from losing the pranksters, impersonators and outright losers. Those who are loyal readers and posters (and I count a significant number here) I’m certain would happily participate in registration. Perhaps another poll would help confirm or deny this reasoning.
Thanks!
sunny615
Re: Cashman
As always, I’m confident he’ll always do “what makes the most sense for the team.” It’s like his personal mantra.
SJ44,
One question, please. Carlos Peña, Tampa Bay , is eligble for arbitration. Can he turn dowm arbitration and become a free agent. IMO,if Carlos became a free agent, the Yankees would go after him. Hemust know that.
Ed Fl. I don’t trust that what Carlos did was natural. He also had no pressure in Tampa. Don’t forget he played on the Soxs in 2006 as well and they released him too.
I’m in full agreement with Buck Foston. Santana has no interest with pitching in a silly college cowtown.
sunny615 I just looked thru the last entry I couldn’t believe what was going on last night! As in past cases it is probably one idiot posting all the nonsense. But I agree it is time for registration. Every night it is a new idiot posting garbage.
Hello
Ed, why would the Yanks go after Carlos Pena? He was at Columbus in 2006 and never sniffed NY. Between Phillips, Betemit, Shelley Duncan, and Giambi, not to mention Juan Miranda and Eric Duncan (who I think will never make it) in the minors, they have enough first basemen clogging things up.
Yeah, those kids were making it very difficult to read the blog. I hope Pete can do something about it. Let’s hope the real Bobcat doesn’t get discouraged from providing the valuable info he does.
I see many people saying it is people from nyyfans doing this, how do you know that? I lurk on that site and most seem like sensible posters.
jennifer -
I think so too. I know the paper is worried about losing bloggers, but I think Pete has enough of a “fan base” where he would still have a ton of posters and the loss of anonymous bloggers would be outweighed by the gain of losing the imposters and idiots.
This deal will get done this week if it is going to get done. I am torn on this one, I just read an interview on nomaas with a Minny reporter and the two things I came away with, where that Johan wants to pitch in NY and that he may be at the top of his game and trending downward. The second part is what scares me. If anything is true the Twins baseball ops people seem to know what they are doing, see Johan rule 5, Nathan and Loriano in a trade.
IMO, you do not trade 6’5″, swing and miss power pitchers and that means Hughes does not get traded. If Johan wants NY, and he does hold a no trade clause as well as probably wanting a multi year deal to waive it, than NY holds some leverage. Cash and Co hold firm with IPK, Melky and another A prospect.
This deal will tell alot about the Yankees baseball ops personnel. Being able to rate and scout your own prospects is probably the biggest thing a team can do, just ask Saban what he was thinking when Nathan and Loriano were traded for AJ. Maybe the Yankees know what they have in their own system to replace the guys they will trade that’s why you need depth.
You can live with IPK turning out to be Moose-lite, but if Hughes turns into a baby-rocket, that is unacceptable. The Yankees right now are a team in transition, new manager, new Stadium, stars getting older, pitchers that are younger. Hopefully, Girardi is involved in this decision, I think he has a good eye for talent and it was great hearing that he spent a week at the DR facility looking over the player down there.
IMO this is why baseball will always rule in the hearts of the fans.
sunny615 I think at this point it is more likely he will lose the good bloggers. People are going to get tired of having to scroll thru imposters, and garbage posts that they will just leave.
Good point jennifer. Is it more detrimental now to deal with this garbage or to register? I would think the former.
Tim Kurkjian is the only believable ESPN analyst. All others are pure speculators that studied Guesswork 101.
Phil Hughes speaks!
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ife-1.html
I don’t know if it is all the trolls or what, but just wasted time righting a post and for some reason it will not go through. I love how idiots get there crap on this blog but real fans can’t even say what is on thier mind.
Pete, wake up and smell the coffee, the people you are trying to keep on this blog are getting tired of the Trolls, do something about it, Please.
Player moves will be made before, during, and after the winter meetings in Nashville.
By now, every caveman knows exactly who Johan Santana is even without cable access, newspapers, or the internet.
Pete: While registration may result in a small decrease in the number of postings (i.e. from the trolls who have nothing better to do with their time), you may find that in the long run that your readers are less likely to turn to the blog if they have to sift through the impersonators and other garbage to find the real insight and smart opinions that many of the posters provide.
JUST READ THIS —- Not Good !!!
”
Charley Walters
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CHARLEY WALTERS: Red Sox take lead in race to obtain Twins pitcher Johan Santana
Pioneer Press
Article Last Updated: 11/29/2007 12:14:50 AM CST
SHOOTER CHARLEY WALTERS
A little birdie says the Boston Red Sox have become the favorite in the Johan Santana trade sweepstakes.
The Twins would receive four players for the Twins’ two-time Cy Young Award winner, including center fielder Coco Crisp, 28.
Others would be shortstop prospect Jed Lowry, 23; left-handed pitcher Jon Lester, 23; and right-handed pitcher Justin Masterson, 22.
Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years.
Lowry did not play in the major leagues this year but is considered ready and is a good-fielding shortstop who also can hit. Lowry had a slugging percentage of .500 at Class AA and Class AAA this year.
Lester made a comeback from non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma a year ago and is said to be cancer-free.
Masterson, 6 feet 6, 245 pounds, had 59 strikeouts in 58 innings at Class AA Portland.
The New York Yankees don’t have the prospects available who the Twins figure have a reasonable chance to play in the major leagues by the end of 2008. “
Well, I really hope that Bobcat was right in saying that Santana would turn down a trade to the sux.
I heard that the Twins didn’t want to pay the contract of someone like Crisp. They didn’t even want to pay the contract of Wang or Cano.
Shamus I’m not going to get worried about it till it happens. Right now everything is rumors. And I still don’t get this fasination with Coco. He doesn’t look like anything special to me. He is also making a nice piece of change.
We still need a bullpen which we don’t have. I think the rotation will be fine with the Big 3, Wang, and possibly Pettitte (hopefully, he comes back).
I visit the blog everyday to get news from Pete, but I definitely do not visit the comments section as much as I did last off-season and the first part of this past season because of the volume of non-sense that’s been building… some of that won’t be avoided by registration, but some of it will and at least people wouldn’t be able to use other’s ID’s and we can get back closer to more intelligent baseball conversations.
Personally, I’m against registration….unless all the guys that register get a date with Jennifer or Rebecca, with Pete paying for dinner, drinks, plane fare and such.
The sign is on the wall. Hughes is a goner.
The Yankees don’t have the prospects available to play in 2008 but the Red Sox do in that package, consisting of two guys who haven’t played in the majors?
Nonsense. Ignore it and move on.
Ed, Pena doesn’t have enough service time to be a FA. He’s arbitration eligible but he hasn’t been in the majors long enough to turn it down and become a FA.
If he turned down arbitration, the Rays can just renew him at a lower price. Which is why he won’t turn it down.
A few thoughts…
I’ve never heard of ‘Shooter’ Charley Walters before, and maybe the ‘birdie’ talking to him is the one in his fat gut, from last Thursday.
Also, I don’t see Johan wanting to go to a bandbox like Fenway, where LHP have historically gotten jacked…
I went to college in Boston from 1996-2000, so it was tough to keep my mouth shut during the Dynasty Years.
One thing I’ll say about that dirty little city…
When I first started going out to the bars with my roommate (from Long Island, a Die Hard NYY fan) we always used to wonder why most Boston chicks paint thier toe nails black… (?)
Then we realized…. they weren’t toe nails, but hooves…
Shamus
That article sounds like noise and disinformation. The Yanks have pitching prospects a plenty.
Coco Crisp is not who the Twins envision as the CF they got for Santana.
Twins want pitching for Santana. Cashman’s been lining up his pitching chips for a while now.
That guy can’t even spell Lowrie’s name correctly, says the Yankees can’t offer enought major league ready talent, and then proceeds to list 2 prospects in the Sox deal. Yeah, he’s probably full of it.
The idea that that “package” would make the red sox the leading contender doesn’t sound real plausible. Why would they possibly want Crisp? And besides Lester the others aren’t ready for the major.
Sounds like something the twins or sox would leak to make it seem like the yankees have more competition. Convenient it comes out after all the rumors yesterday that if the Sox don’t include ellsbury then the twins aren’t interested.
Jennifer, Carlos Pena has an exceptional glove and has always had “light tower power”. He had 28 homers with Detroit back in ’04. His problem was strikeouts. A smart guy, great work ethic, just that there was always somebody that the organization liked better and never had a fulltime shot. He should be a FA at the end of ’08.
All that is true re: Pena. Bottom line, he isn’t available so, its meaningless to discuss him.
He will be the TB first baseman in 2008.
Boston is playing its usual nasty game of trying to jack up the price for New York.
The truth is that’s a pathetic package, Crisp throws like a chicken infected with the avian flu. Lester is still in recovery from serious illness — and he was a liability pitching much of last year. Yes, he had his one shining moment but he has generally been very wild, frequently running full counts, loading the bases and wriggling out when he gets favorable umpire calls. His performances has been spotty at best. Kennedy, in his brief ML stint, was far more effective. As to Masterson, he was ranked #13 among Eastern League prospects — that’s well behind Horne who was #7 (IPK was #5).
The net result of all this is the Yankees can simply offer quantity of pitching in a way Boston can not come close to matching. Of course, the question is is whether some combination of Kennedy, Horne, Melancon, Ohlendorf, Betances, Whelan etc. etc. is worth surrendering. But there’s no question the depth of the Yankees’s system gives them a huge advantage over the eternally scheming, hate-driven front office up at Fenway.
Guys, Carlos Pena can NOT become a free agent. he can’t decline arbitration.
you can’t become a FA without the requisite service time. he doesn’t have it.
the only way he can become a FA is to be non-tendered by the Rays, which won’t happen.
I brought this up yesterday but ut got lost in the Santana stuff. It looks like both Cano and Wang are arbitration eligible for this year will the Yankees offer longer term contracts to avoid this process or do we have arbitration hearings on thiese guys this year which is often ugly and messy.
gayle If I remember correctly they offered arbitration to Wang last year he declined.
Let me go on the record that I have nothing but undying hatred for construction workers that wake me up at eight AM.
Okay, I know I’m spoiled for being able to sleep in, but it is so. freaking. unpleasant.
The Yankees could trump that package with ease.
IPK or Hughes, Alberto Gonzalez, Horne or Sanchez, Melky
Shamus – The Pioneer press is the same entity that published this gem a few days ago.
http://www.twincities.com/sansevere/ci_7566304
Jennifer correct Cots says that both Cano and Wang only signed 1 year deals that expire 3/08 and they do not have enough service obviously for FA same thing with Bruney and Betimit. So it seems that all 4 are arbitration eligible. Obviously I am more concerned with Cano and Wang
Bottom Line ….. the fact is that both sides play the “nasty game” of driving up the stakes for the other team. And, I believe that, as fans, we badly overestimate our own team’s talent. I see Melky as a fourth outfielder and Kennedy as a #4 starter …. but Yankee fans seem to think that’s enough to start a meaningful dialog re: Santana. I doubt that the Twins concur.
One advantage Boston has in this process – Jon Henry will defer to Theo on the baseball elements of any trade. Hank Steinbrenner seems pretty full of himself, and may well do something stupid just to grab the back page of the local tabloids.
we were warned remember that guys
Brian,
Do you really see Theo giving out a $150 million dollar seven year contract to a pitcher, even one as good as santana? How is he going to do that after already spending $100 million on Dice K?
Also, if money is not a problem why wouldn’t the Sox agree to trading Ellsbury? Don’t get me wrong – I really like Ellsbury and it wouldn’t surprise me if he’s an all star caliber center fielder.
But no matter how good ellsbury/ lester are, if the Sox did get Santana they have to know they’d be set up for an unbelievable run with him and beckett.
They traded Ramirez for Beckett. Why so stuck on Ellsbury? I don’t get it unless its an issue of them just not wanting to pay Santana or knowing santana won’t play in boston.
Brian (SAWX FAN)
Go back to beantown!!
After Bobcat’s info yesterday reading the daily news takes on a different read,it seems more speculation than fact based.
Brian,
One thing I forgot – I completely understand why the Sox wouldn’t include Buchholz (i wouldn’t either) given the value of pitching.
But they have to think they can find position players on ellsbury’s level much more easily than a santana.
Brian,
I see Coco as a 4th outfielder and Lester as a 4th starter. What’s the difference between what sox fans think about their homegrowns and what yank fans think about theirs?
this article: http://www.twincities.com/sans.....ck_check=1
already mentioned here, and talked about all over the internets is the sadest article ever. They include carlos silva as one of the players the red soxs would get.
Carlos Silva is a free agent.
ignore that newspaper.
All sux Fans that come to this blog show just how pathetic they are. They just won the flippin’ World Series and they STILL can’t avoid obsessing over the NYY. No Matter what, they will always be the little kid that gets told ” Get OUTTA here” when it comes time to play big kid stuff. Too funny. Santana wants to play with the Yankees. I’ll bet one of the reasons he’ll block a trade to the BoSux is that Beck@$$ is there. GO YANKEES FOREVER !
Brian,
You base your premise on what exactly? Your non-biased knowledge of the Yankee organization?
Allow me to give you a lesson in baseball business.
Theo Epstein has ZERO power to acquire Johan Santana without the approval of ownership.
He’s in the same boat as Brian Cashman. Neither guy can make that kind of financial commitment without ownership being involved in the deal.
On the subject of full of themselves owners, I wouldn’t talk too much when you have a guy like Larry Lucchino in your employ.
Stick to what you think you know about the Red Sox and leave out what you don’t know about the Yankees. You will be much better off.
if they hire idiots like that, it’ll be easier than i thought to get a job in the sports journalism industry
Good morning, everyone. That article and those reports about Santana going to Boston are the kind of reports that Bobcat warned us about yesterday. Any report of the Red Sox being a major player in the negotiations is probably moot because of the fact that Santana has that no-trade clause and he doesn’t seem too high on going to Boston.
Well, if you peruse through the comments section of that article, you’ll see that everyone – including twinkie fans – call this guy out for the fool that he is. The thing that gets me is why the paper hasn’t pulled this article already condiering it’s has a blatant error in it regarding the Twins packaging Silva (who’s a free agent) in a deal? It makes the paper look just as foolish as that writer.
considering… edit button please.
The more I see posts like this the more I try to figure out who Cashman has ever traded that has gone on to become a great player. I for the life of me can not think of one player.
I would love for someone to shed the light on that one for me if you’d please.
raymagnetic – Aren’t you glad we didn’t trade away Drew Henson?
“Just when I thought our days of trading away our best young players for expensive, past their primes superstars, were over. Here comes the Santana trade”
And to claim that Santana is past their primes makes no sense whatsoever. No sense.
Yeah, Mike R and Migames…
Thanks for the heads up… WOW, I just read that article and I lost all respect for the Pioneer Press… Silva in a trade? Thought he was a FA?
Did some sportswriters teenage kid sneak his way onto a computer at that rag and post that? I can’t believe that article made it past an editor, if anyone is even running the show at the Pioneer Press…
Brian (Sox fan)
Geesh, Hank believes it’s better to be open with the fan base. Full of himself? I doubt his ego is getting in the way of Cashman’s job as you’d like to believe.
As many have pointed out, Cashman is in his silent mode, which means something’s cookin’. Hank’s isn’t saying or doing anything to impede that.
Why are Sox fans so hateful? Yankees fans at least respect Theo and Sox ownership. We certainly think of them as noble advesaries. But Sox fans act like the Yanks are no better than the Third Reich, geesh.
Raymagnetic–
Hey man, we dealt a future ace for David Justice from Cleveland seven years ago…. Jake Westrook…lol….
raymagnetic-
Brandon Clausson. Oh wait.
But seriously we saw Phil, Joba and Ian be successful up here. Brandon pitched one good game against the Mets. Remember that one split double header one game at YS the other Shea.
Lost in the TB-Twins trade was Brendan Harris who may takeover at SS for the Twins, he is pretty damned good. The Twins mad an awesome deal that probably favors them at the start until Garza & Morlan establish themselves.
migames
I don’t think it’s off base to suggest that Santana’s best seasons are behind him. In fact I think it’s likely that his best seasons ARE behind him.
Nick Johnson was probably the best young player Cash ever traded.
At the same time, while cash has been gm the draft was so bad thanks to the guys in tampa he didn’t have much talent to give up.
That’s why the yanks had no shot at Beckett.
Cash has been smart in understanding that its better to make mistakes with money rather than talent. That’s where he’s placed the risks in deals and that’s what he should do given the yankees strenghts.
Traded David Weathers 10 years ago. Only took him 9 years to become a closer and one year to lose his job.
No kidding Adam…
They have won two of the last four World Series, and they are still always keeping a wavering, worried, watchful eye on us over here…
Its amazing… I live in the Redneck Backyard of Red Sox Nation, and as a Yankees fan, I generally keep my mouth shut, whether the NYY is winning or losing.
These people, fans if they want to try and call themselves that, live and die everyday by the back page of tabloids.
If Jackie MacMullen or Tony Assarotty (like they did in April) say something like, “Pedrioa isn’t ready, ne needs to get sent down,” then all the fans up here in Chowderville boo him and scream for his head. When Dice-K was in a funk and had an ERA over 6 at one point this year, a crowd with pitchforks and machetes surrounded the Sox offices on Yawkey way.
They have no faith in their team. Red Sox fans are the most gutless fans in the hostory of sports. If there team loses, they want ‘em all traded away. When the team wins, they still worry about what the NYY is up to.
I can’t imagine being a ‘fan’ like that, and ‘supporting’ my team that way… For years they cried about how much money the NYY spent and how it wasn’t fair. Now, they’ve become their own worst enemy, a mini-me version of the Bronx Bombers…
I agree with many of you…Hughes has shown all the positive signs of being a very special pitcher in performance, sabermetrics study, and his response to adversity this year and strong finish. It is a must to keep Phil Hughes to the degree that is IS a deal breaker…Kennedy Melky and another young prospect( I would try to keep Horne as well but not let it be a deal breaker) is much better than what I see being offered for Santana from other teams.
Santana has some negative signs for sure that 7 years is just too much as well. We can use talks for Haren a chip and alternate option as well.
I’ll try to answer to a few questions/comments:
(1)Just a guess, but I think that they’re infatuation with Ellsbury is tied to their accurate evaluation of Pedroia. They like his talent, AND his makeup. I’m not sure that they were sure about Hanley Ramirez, who was a ltllle lackadaisacal. So they gave him up.
(2) SJ – I specifically mentioned Theo having the say-so on BASEBALL decisions, I’m fully aware that Jon Henry would have to approve the money. But Theo will have final say re: whether the talent is commensurate.
Also, Lucchine may well be full of himself, but he is a proven Machiavellian force to be reckoned with. He is selective in his involvement, and uses the media for his own purposes. Hank seems to be a bufoon, convinced that he knows more than everyone else (hence the need to share his brilliance).
(3) I agree that Coco is a fourth outfielder (albeit a good one), and Lester a fourth starter. They won’t be enough for Santana. Bucholtz is another story – three excellent pitches, all decidedly different (good fast ball, great 12-6 curve, great “screwball” change). Either Elsbury or Bucholtz would have to go for Santana.
P.S. I’ve been watching baseball since I first went to Fenway to watch the Yankees (with Mantle, Berra, etc.) play lousy Sox teams (with a 37 year old Ted Williams). I realize that doesn’t necessarily make me an expert, but it does lend perspective.
Didn’t Cash trade Soriano? I know it was for Alex and I would do that trade again in a heartbeat, but Soriano may be the best Cash has traded. And it was a good one.
Buddy, Harris can hit pretty well, but, is a lousy shortstop. He is, however a pretty good 2nd baseman. Casilla plays 2nd and short more than acceptable and not a bad singles hitter with outstanding speed.
I think the best player that Cash has ever traded is Alfonso Soriano but they now have the best player in baseball and it’s not even close when you compare Alex’ and Soriano’s numbers over the past 4 years.
Hey guys,
Please don’t worry about Charley Walters. Do you really think HE would be the first person to have access to such a big story? Also, if you look at the package — it just isn’t enough. I have to believe the Yankees would trump that if given the opportunity to do so. I don’t think Crisp is enough to center a package around for an ace like Santana, and I don’t think Lester is either. Masterson is probably at least one more full season away from the majors (and he’s likely only going to be a reliever), and Lowrie’s a good prospect, but no superstar. He’ll probably be a major league regular at second, not at short. I just don’t think that is enough. Just as the Yankees will HAVE to include Hughes to get Santana, I believe the Red Sox will have to include Ellsbury or Buchholz.
I’m just curious. When did Santanna ever say he didn’t want to go to Boston? I hope that is true cause it helps our chances. But does anyone have a link where he was quoted as saying that?
Brian – Here’s a question. With hundreds of Red Sox blogs on the internet. Why in the world would you hang out here?
Thats what the Yanks should do, go to their best news guy to drop a phony rumor that they are set to acquire Dan Haren for Jeff Karstens, Alan Horne and Brett Gardner.
Then see how quick the Minn. area code pops up on Cashman’s caller ID.
I do think the NYY should refrain from putting all eggs in one basket. They need to float a Haren rumor, or even better, a KAZMIR rumor, that will scare the heck out of the Minn to give up Johan at a FAIR price, ie, without Phil, Joba or Cano…
But I agree with all who say that b/c Brian Cashman has ‘gone on the lam’ to quote Tony Soprano, and is in his infamous, silent/deadly/attack/ninja mode, I do feel something big is one the way….
Remember how quiet things were right before he gave Damon four years/ $52M???
Good point GreenBeret7. Sounds like Casilla will play SS, unless the Twins acquire a SS such as Bill Hall or JJ Hardy for Nathan, or even sign Cesar Itzuris.
How about including Alberto Gonzalez in the Santana deal? I know they just got Brendan Harris, and AG isnt high ceiling in terms of offensive production, but he’s reportedly got gold glove ability.
Or how about moving AG for a chance at Mark Prior?
He’s a great 4/5th option for the Yankees, but realistically, DJ isnt going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is Cano… and we’ve got Betemit as a utility guy.
I don’t even think you can really consider soriano because they were getting back ARod. That was such an exceptional (and strange) situation.
Also there was no real issue of giving away a “young” player there – ARod is less than a year older than soriano.
Cash traded Ted Lilly and Mike Lowell. Both have had pretty nice MLB careers.
Therston,
If the Yanks trade Hughes, he’ll be the only good pitcher they’ll get from us. Twins would rather have volume, I think. I like a Kennedy, Horne, +prospects deal. Horne is quite valuable I think. He projects as a starter or a dominent pen guy. Kennedy is ready now, he could be good for 12-15 wins next year. Yanks have plenty other pitching prospects to package a well.
If they want Hughes, I say send him, but that’s all. These Hughes AND Kennedy, or Hughes AND Melky are deal breakers to me.
The Yankees HAVE to include nobody. This isn’t a typical trade, since if Johan rejects it, all they get is draft picks.
For the Twinkies, the issue is to look good for their fans. By not giving Santana what he wants, they look bad already.
I think IPK, Gonzalez (they need a SS), AJax or Tabata, and one of the AA studs gets this done.
I dont want to see Hughes, Melk, or Cano traded that would be stupid. I could see Kennedy, Jackson, Horne and 1 or 2 more youngsters for Santana and if they want him thrown them Damon too.
migames, i agree…everyone is comparing this trade to the kevin brown/randy johnson/javy vazquez ones….santana is either MUCH younger than them, or MUCH better….its def not the same thing
by the way, i want to trust bobcat, but i dont want to be naive either….so was he on point in other transactions as well? like did he inform you guys about the arod stuff beforehand as well?
lets break this down for this Charlie w/e his name is
he speaks of Crisp like he’s the centerpiece
really Shooter !!! who’s paying you for this one !!!
Twins to trade an Ace/Cy Young SP in Santana for
and lets be totally honest here
1. Coco Crisp at best a veteran raw 4th OF who can get hurt for his recklessness
2. SP Jon Lester injury risk oh and a guy w/ a variety of ailments, including forms of cancer (I’m sorry just being truthful here nothing mean or malicious)
3. SS/2B Jed lowrie who is highly overrated and may not be better than Pedroia
4. and then the injury prone becoming Justin Masterson who hasn’t even cracked the MLB rosters
all of those guys are a shoe in for 2008 or 09′ all of our guys no chance, none at all according to this writter named shooter w/ a little birdie
John C
I don’t think he did but lots of people are saying things that make you think it might be true. Gardenhire said he lights up on the NY stage. Tori Hunter said this week that Santana wants NY. With the no trade clause I think people are connecting dots that may or may not be true.
Kunaldo – Bobcat mentioned details of the Garza – Young trade about three or four days ago. in addition he confirmed the deal was going through and the Rincon for Moran switch before either was published.
Buddy, Hall may be a choice, but, doubtful the Brewhaha’s will give up Hardy. Hall’s not much of a fielder at short or in center field. Would be a great DH, though.
Kunaldo-
All day Bobcat was saying “other trades need to happen first” then he posted the Garza-Young looked like a deal, five minutes later, ESPN posted it. THEN he said looks like Nathan is next, then news outlets start posting Nathan rumors. He seems to be on target.
JohnC,
I don’t think santana has or could say publicly that he wants to play for the yankees.
Indirectly he’s spoken of how much he likes new york as a city.
Also in John Harper’s column yesterday he said that Tori Hunter told him this past season that Santana would wind up in New York – harper didn’t write anything about it during the season becasue hunter didn’t want him to. Hunter also told Stephen Smith of ESPN radio (yes I know) that Santana was going to New York.
Mike R – I don’t “hang out here.” I drop by occasionally to see how the loyal opposition is doing. I had no intention of stirring up resentment, but of having a bit of a dialog with interested parties with another viewpoint. Myopic bloggers like yourself need not get involved, nor irritated. Just go on with your narrow little life and continue to talk with those who already agree with you.
Brian – I asked you a simple question and you reply with “Myopic bloggers like yourself need not get involved, nor irritated. Just go on with your narrow little life and continue to talk with those who already agree with you.”. I believe I have blogged here long enough for people to vouch that I have never disrespected anyone here. If this is your way of not “stirring up resentment” you are going about it the wrong way. If by myopic you mean that I worry about my own life without peeking into the neighbors house to see what’s going on over there, then absolutely I am.
I could reply in kind to your diatribe, but I will take the high road.
Dearest Brian–
Since I always strive to respect my elders, I will endeavor to express my sentiments as judiciously as possible.
Now, while I realize most Red Sox fans suffer from illiteracy, I have to believe the few who can read have established their own forums. Don’t you think you’d find more hospitable confines over there?
Still, while we Yankees fans are a charitable lot and will invite the town drunk to tea every know and then, we do expect him to mind his manners however while among us and to keep his intoxicated drivel to himself.
Can Johan come out and state that he wants to only play for the Yankees? He knows they would take care of him money wise. He would give the Yankees leverage in a deal if he states this.
Kill-Schill(ing) – That was almost poetic. I am impressed.
Rich – I am not offended. My question was not meant to offend either. I am not “pissed” that non-yankee fans post here. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I did not criticize Brian’s comments, thoughts or opinions.
I love it… They win the WS and they still are looking over there backs at us…
Like they are afraid Goliath (NYY) will get/wake up as David (BOS) is walking away victorious, and then we’ll step on them!
Why do idiot Red Sox fans come over here to stir up trouble?
thanks Mike R
Anyone seen or heard from Dr. Acula or is he still in Transylvania recovering from Turkey Day?
No problem kunaldo.
Does anyone else think Bobcat is Pete? I read that one either this thread or the last one…
Where did Pete go to college, and were the Bobcats his team’s mascot?
Brian (Red Sox fan) ….
Without saying it publicly or to teammates, Johan Santana doesn’t want to pitch in a bandbox within a college cowtown of silly, goofy talking fans. The big stage of New York fits him to a tee. The Yankees WILL get a deal done.
Or is Bobcat a sports agent or another infamous sportswriter?
He’s always right on…. Its kind of fraky…
Bobcat, what should I play for the daily pick four today?
Bobcat should have his insider Line any day now. Just dial 1-900-4Bobcat. A $20 charge may apply.
Shamus and Kelli,
Pete went to U-Mass Ammherst (Minutemen)
Bobcat said several times he works for a financial consulting firm that does work for MLB and MiLB. He also said when asked he is not anyone we’d recognize or a “personality” I could be wrong/naive but I belive him.
Bobcat rally is good. From Buster Olney today:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....d=tab6pos1
Interesting read.
There is no other interest in Troy that he is going to sign with the Rays? wow
according to Ken Rosenthal, the Yankees were offering their setup gig to Percival, and i think there was another team involved, but i’m guessing TB was the only team to offer him multiple years.
Jennifer-
The Yankees were interested in Troy, but he wants to close & reunite with his Joe Maddon, an old coach from his Angels playing days.
Saying Hank Steinbrenner is a buffoon is simply a moronic statement.
Here is how much of a “buffoon” Hank is.
He got the agent who has fleeced most of baseball, including your beloved Red Sox Brian, to get bounced from the Arod talks and got him back to NY.
For 20 years, MLB owners and GM’s have caved when Scott Boras came calling. A rookie owner blew him up in the biggest negotiation in history. Had him sent to him room without his supper.
Hank is such a “buffoon”, he has gotten congratulatory phone calls from the entire industry at the way he declawed Boras.
At the end of the season, all the “experts” predicted the “end” of the Yankees.
So, what has Hank done? Got the best young manager in the game, re-signed all his key FA’s, including Jose Molina, an important signing, and is thisclose to acquiring the best pitcher in baseball.
If that makes him a buffoon, you ought to hope you attain such buffoonery in your chosen career.
Really, can the “I am a good Red Sox fan visiting a Yankee blog” crap.
You are just another typical, insecure Red Sox fan, needing to frequent a Yankee blog spouting nonsensical crap.
One last thing. If you think Theo Epstein has final approval on ANY player matters concerning the Red Sox, you are more out of touch with your own team’s doings than you are with the Yankees.
Given the nonsense you have spouted here everytime you talk about the Yankees, that’s saying something.
The Red Sox and the Twins seem to be working together to force the Yankees into including Phil Hughes in a deal.
First of all, I can’t see the Twins considering the Red Sox reported offer as better than that of the Yankees, at best, I’d say their equal (Kennedy vs. Lester, Cabrera vs. Coco, + speculated prospects).
Second, I can’t see the Red Sox signing Santana to such a big contract knowing that Beckett is soon to be a free agent. Otherwise, they are planning to pay their top two starters close to $50 million per year combined. Finally, although it’s already been mentioned, Santana loses a ton of his effectiveness pitching at Fenway. Why pay a guy $25 mil a year when half his starts are going to be at Fenway where he is not nearly the dominant performer he is elsewhere?
This is similar to the Yankees making the offer to Lowell to drive up what the Red Sox had to pay in the end. I say if the Twins do not accept a deal based around Kennedy, Melky and 2 top prospects, we should not make a deal. The reason the Twins want to trade Santana in the first place is because they know we will sign him as a free agent, why do them any more favors than we have to?
For the record, I am close friends with a couple Sox fans (heresy, I know), and they are perfectly civil, well-meaning and informed people.
can someone wake up bobcat…thanks
Buster Olney makes a good argument against trading too much for Johan Santana when there’s another guy who comes much cheaper.
Santana – NTC, makes $13M now, may be asking $150M over the next 6 years.
Dan Haren – no NTC, already under contract for between $4-7M per over the next few years.
Oh and Santana hasn’t been the premier pitcher for the past 5 years. His breakout year was ’04. My math may be off but as far as I can calculate that was only 4 seasons ago. Before that he filled a role very well, but he wasn’t considered ‘elite’ until ’04. And while last year was a pretty god year for him (despite lack of run support) it wasn’t a spectacular year. So that could be seen be 3 years as elite pitcher with maybe an off year.
Don’t get me wrong I’d love to see him on the Yanks and not on the Sox. But how much better than Dan Haren can you really expect him to be, considering the cost differential.
Would NY be that much better off with Santana than picking a rotation from Wang-Haren-Pettitte-Joba-Hughes-Moose, and an outside chance of keeping IPK? If that could be pulled off, there would still be five good pitchers once life after Moose and Pettitte begins.
Yes that assumes Pettitte comes back for a year or two but that’s another topic.
Of course Billy Beane would want someone good in return. Would he go for Melky, one other OF prospect and maybe a couple pitching prospects like Clippard, Desalvo, Horne or Karstens? Someone else with a lot of promise still at AA level?
Pavano & Giambi?
(just kidding, if it isn’t obvious enough to you)
It’s all rumor of course, but it doesn’t sound like the Twinkies would do a deal w/o one of the 3 kids.
The Red Sox and Twins don’t have to get together to do anything.
Johan Santana has a no trade clause. He will only be traded to the team he wants to be traded to.
Some of you have to begin to understand the business of baseball.
Johan will go where Johan wants to go. Not to where the Twins want to send him.
Pete went to UMASS.
However, the BOBCATS are my alma maters mascot…
SJ- well said. If anything, the Sox should thank Hank for knocking Boras down a few notches. Maybe they’re jealous since Boras abused them last year with Dice K and Drew lol.
I must say, I really like Hank. Who agrees?
He’s open with the fan base, and I like that. He’s got a great GM in Cashman and he’s letting him do his job (as fas as we can tell). He wants to continue winning. And, as a bonus, the Red Sox fans don’t seem to like him… so he must be doing something right.
The difference between Dan Haren and Johan Santana, aside from the fact Santana is a better pitcher, is their pitching arm.
Santana, being lefthanded, is more valuable than Haren.
There are plenty of exciting, young, talented RH pitchers (like Haren) in the game.
There are no LH available like Johan Santana.
Just as there is a real shortage of RH power in the game, there is a bigger shortage of dominant LH pitchers.
That’s why you pay what you have to pay to acquire somebody like Santana.
I am really, really not fond of UMass right now.
But not quite as much as I’m not fond of Syracuse, who can’t beat a @$@#$! unranked team!
Hey, I’m not a bigot. Some of my closest friends are Red Sox fans.
I find no greater pleasure in taking them for a walk, making them a glass of warm milk, helping them clean their dentures, and wiping away their drool.
Miller, are you hearing any news on the Santana front?
What’s there not to like about Hank so far?
Clearly, he isn’t afraid to spend money. He lets his people do their jobs, supports them, and isn’t afraid to make bold moves, ie: getting Arod back and hiring Girardi.
He is as open as he can be with the media, which keeps the fans informed.
When a guy tells the media, “I won’t lie. I may not be able to tell you everything but, I won’t lie”, which is what he said when he took the gig, and has lived up to it, that’s pretty solid if you ask me.
Its better than Howard Rubenstein statements.
Only folks with agendas can find fault with Hank at this time. Perhaps he changes when the games are played. However, as of right now, its pretty tough to be critical of the guy. He’s doing a very good job.
the question is, will Jim Boeheim break Bob Knights record or will it be Coach K?
If this is the real “miller”, I would advise you to say nothing.
IIRC, you said you either have a friend who works in Peter Greenberg’s office or you work in his office.
If that’s the case, I’d sit this one out until something becomes official.
No sense getting yourself or your friend in trouble over this stuff.
FYI: Peter Greenberg is Johan Santana’s agent.
Seymour:
I am not hearing anything at this point but I know for a fact once the winter meetings start I will have plenty of info. You can be sure each one of my posts will carry my “grain of salt” posting though, just as the A-rod post did.
SJ44-
Santana does have a no trade clause, but if he has the choice between getting a payday with the Red Sox or risking another year pitching for the Twins before becoming a free agent, I really don’t think he’s going to pick the latter. All the talk of Santana wanting to come to the Yankees is trumped by the fact that he wants to get paid as soon as possible. If it comes to the point where the Sox and the Twins agree to a deal and he has a 72 hour negotiating window with the Red Sox, he will be pitching for the Red Sox next year.
SJ44:
Read my previous post. Trust me, I am not trying to start any rumors or get anyone in trouble.
Migames: It’ll be Boeheim, but next year, after I graduate
the Red Saux ARENT paying Johan $20+ million a year. They arent a player.
I didn’t especially care for Hank’s comments about “the great team his father handed” Joe Torre in 1996.
First of all, it was condescending. More importantly, it was inaccurate.
Joe’s best work may have been with that ’96 team. He discovered how great Mo was– Showalter hadn’t a clue. He restored Wetteland’s confidence. He plugged Mariano Duncan at 2nd, though Watson had acquired him as a utility player. And he managed to win without having an established ace– David Cone, following his shoulder surgery didn’t return until September– and without a legitimate slugger. Strawberry and Fielder were late-season acquisitions.
If George handed anyone anything it was Hank’s Yankees. He attained to his position by an accident of birth. Torre achieved his status through his athletic ability, media savvy, equanimity and intelligence.
Jim Boeheim will be coaching when your children’s children go to college. That guy is ageless.
SJ, who do you work for? I think I asked yesterday, do you work for scouts? Are you employed by some players? PR firms? I know you dont have to answer, but we would all love to know.
Migames: Probably. No matter what I’ll have to be at the Dome for his final game. That will be legend.
And exactly how would Josh “Bawlbaby” Beckett feel after being upstaged yet again with a monster contact ?
If Matsuzaka wasn’t enough, what damage would a Santana contract do to his ego ?
After signing an extension in ’06 of 30M through ’09, he looks like chump money for supposedly being the No. 1 guy. He’ll want to renegotiate using his better status of the last Cy Young voting.
And the Yankees ? No such problem. Wang is the nearest starting pitcher to big money with his arbitration case due this year.
I’m still trying to analyze the “real” Bobcat’s comments from yesterday on the Yankees-Santana trade proposals.
Here’s what I’m getting so far:
1. Cano and Joba are “off the table” and do not appear on any trade list at this point.
2. Hughes is included in some of the lists. But he is the centerpiece with the fewest number of prospects offered.
3. IPK is included and probably includes the most attractive list of prospects (in terms of quantity)that the Yankees will offer.
4. The selection of the Yankee proposals (players) will be greatly influenced by other domino moves that the Twins have made or will make (ie Tampa Bay trade and the proposed trade of Nathan to a Central Division Team.
If the Twins trade Nathan, will they then be more inclined to seek at least one MLB-ready reliever from the Yankee list?
(Farnsy – if the Yanks agree to pay a significant portion of the salary or one of Ohlendorf, Sanchez, Melancon if they decide to develop for 2010).
SJ -
Great points about Hank.
The other thing – when Hank does speak, it sounds like he’s repeating things that Cashman and his baseball people have said. He’s not a loose cannon
It seems like he and Cashman are working together. I’m sure Cashman doesn’t mind if Hank takes away media attention – it makes it easier for Cash to operate in stealth mode.
Santana’s NTC has to be a huge factor in this. It means the Twins can only talk to teams Santana will play for. These teams also have to be willing and able to give him a lucrative extension. The Twins have to create a market among those teams. They can take the best offer, try to generate a bidding war, or hold onto him until the trading deadline.
Lol–
I’m a ‘paint-lickah’ to Boston Rich b/c apparently I hit anerve calling out Red Sox for exactly what they are…
Fence-riding, insecure, poor excuses for fans… Plain and simple.
Mmmmmm, this Ralph Lauren Red on my office wall is DE-LICIOUS !!!!
Now bring me some chowder and fix your public transportation system, crummy little city of Boston.
STAY IN YOUR LANE !
You don’t see me on the “I toss Red Dog’s salad” Red Sox blog, do you ?
LJ, seems like what you’ve figured out is about the same as what I got too… and from what i figured out, it seems as though the Twins might actually favor a package built around IPK more, because they’d rather restock with more A- prospects than center a deal around a singular A+ prospect.
I still think we could be talking about Melky, IPK, and two of Horne, McCutcheon, Betances, Malancon, and Robertson.
I think more than Santana’s NTC and who he wants to play for, it comes down to who can afford to pay him the $20+ million that he is looking for. If the Red Sox are offering the Twins the reported packages, they are either willing to pay Santana, or they are trying to drive up the price for the Yankees. Both are possible, but paying Santana, Beckett, and Dice-K more than 60 million in 3 years doesn’t seem likely. That is why I think the Twins and Red Sox are not doing more than trying to drive up the Yankees offer, and why I think the Yankees should not increase their offer.
Hey SJ44-
I hate it when people copy and paste other people’s whole entries, but what you just wrote to that Masshole was the best post I think I’ve ever seen on here.
Good call on Hank… He singlehandedly made Scott Boras a laughing stcok and punchline to soooo many industry jokes. Something even his father could have never done…
He is a genius, and he’s a chain-smoking s.o.b. Just the kind of guy we need running the show, a man’s man, a “John McLane” kind of guy…
Amen– For all who didn’t catch SJ44′s beatdown of some silly Sox fan, I Tivo’d it for y’all: (lol)
“Saying Hank Steinbrenner is a buffoon is simply a moronic statement.
Here is how much of a “buffoon†Hank is.
He got the agent who has fleeced most of baseball, including your beloved Red Sox Brian, to get bounced from the Arod talks and got him back to NY.
For 20 years, MLB owners and GM’s have caved when Scott Boras came calling. A rookie owner blew him up in the biggest negotiation in history. Had him sent to him room without his supper.
Hank is such a “buffoonâ€, he has gotten congratulatory phone calls from the entire industry at the way he declawed Boras.
At the end of the season, all the “experts†predicted the “end†of the Yankees.
So, what has Hank done? Got the best young manager in the game, re-signed all his key FA’s, including Jose Molina, an important signing, and is thisclose to acquiring the best pitcher in baseball.
If that makes him a buffoon, you ought to hope you attain such buffoonery in your chosen career.
Really, can the “I am a good Red Sox fan visiting a Yankee blog†crap.
You are just another typical, insecure Red Sox fan, needing to frequent a Yankee blog spouting nonsensical crap.
One last thing. If you think Theo Epstein has final approval on ANY player matters concerning the Red Sox, you are more out of touch with your own team’s doings than you are with the Yankees.
Given the nonsense you have spouted here everytime you talk about the Yankees, that’s saying something.
”
Superb, my friend, just superb…
it would be really cold of the yankees if they moved dellin
Few people realize that in fact, Johan Santana and Peter Greenberg firmly hold the trump card for another year.
Out of fairness, they won’t nix a deal for the sake of doing it. Paramount with his client, Greenberg wants him where he’ll want to be and feel the most comfortable being and with the best possible chance to win in the bigger scheme of things. Greenberg has done his homework and will advise his client accordingly. A Scott Boras he’s not.
i’m not so sure the Red Sox won’t trade Ellsbury. I am sure they would prefer not to, but they have Crisp and they know the value of pitching. If they add Santana to Beckett and Buchholz, they will be very tough to beat over the next 4-5 seasons.
Epstein knows this also but the Sox do a better job of not sharing inside team info than our friend Hank does.
If the Yankees dont get Santana, they need to make darn sure Boston doesnt either.
TurnTwo:
One of the big “unknowns” is how the Twins scouting personnel think in terms of individual Yankee player evaluations, but I hope your scenario centering around an IPK package, rather than Hughes, is accurate.
Ha, Meant Rem-Dawg’ Salad!
And, SJ, great, great posts today in support ofHank. I agreed with every word you typed.
Latham- You’re on point I think. I doubt Farns is on the table. More likely Giambi or Damon are.
SJ – I think you are way off on your assessment of Hank. WAY off.
Teams operate based on need. Boston doesn’t NEED a no. 1 and therefore doesn’t need to absorb the expense or get involved in bidding for his services (except to drive up the price for the Yankees). Sox won WS last year with Beckett, Dice-K, 38 pitches.com, Wakes, etc. Next year it’s looking like Beckett, Dice-K, Lester, Wakes, and Buckholz or even Paplebon if they can replace him at closer. At most, they need a middle of the rotation starter. Huge difference in price parameters and/or the need for a trade.
Boston invested big last year in Dice K and JD Nancy Drew and this year in keeping their 3d baseman. Do they really want to take on Santana money now that they are balancing the big contacts with savings from Youkilis, Pedroia and maybe Ellsbury in ’08? They might, but instead I think they are willing to leave the “highest salary budget” title to the Yanks.
I, living up here in Maine, have a lot of Sox fan friends… I just speak to some more from March thru October than others !
We have a nice Yankees based contingency building up here though…
ESPN First Take just reported the Mets are out of the Johan sweepstakes because they refuse to deal Jose Reyes, the centerpiece of any trade talks the Twinkies have had with the ‘Tropolitans.
Sounds like Omar will try to flip Lastings and another OF, maybe a pitcher, to OAK for Haren OR Blanton…
LJ, i have no actual source for my thoughts here, other than what i gather from Bobcat, SJ, and others, but to me it just makes more sense from a team standpoint. why would the twins swing, and possibly miss, on one real prospect, when they can go to bat with like 3 or 4 pitching prospects, and hope they can get 1 or 2 solid ones out of the bunch?
one real sleeper in all of this that hasnt been discussed, or maybe it has and i missed it, but i can imagine at some point the Mariners would make a serious run here… they play in a great ballpark, and already have their “joba” in King Felix to pair with Johan at the top of the rotation.
they have a lot of $$ tied up in players like Sexson, but they have the prospects to make a deal… just depends on the $$ to pay Johan. I can see Johan agreeing to partner up with a fellow Venezuelan prodigy.
Maybe the below has something to do with the fact that we are hearing he doesnt want to play for Boston. yes a small sample size but being as it is the same number of games comparable.
Santana stats at Fenway
ERA 7.20
1-3 W L
4 games
15IP
21 H
14 R
Santana at Yankee Stadium
ERA 1.17
2-0 W L
4 games
23.0 IP
18 HITS
3 Runs
Looks like they’re gone, but don’t you guys recognize passive-aggressive behavior when you see it? The “I come in peace” ploy is the oldest trick in the book.
gayle, did johan say he didnt want to play for boston? sorry, i havent heard that so i wasnt sure.
Gayle – thanks for posting those stats. I read somewhere however that Johan hasn’t started in Boston in a few years – is that true?
No he didnt say that if you read what i wrote it said what we are hearing again it goes in the rumour mill but nevertheless his stats at fenway I think we could all agree dont bode well.
Boston Dave:
He hasn’t mentioned anything about NOT wanting to play for Boston, but I would think that having to play half his starts at Fenway would be something he would seriously consider. The Fenway crowd can be tough on players that aren’t performing, and I don’t know if I’d want to spend 7 years of my career far less effective at home than on the road. My question to you is do you think the Red Sox can afford to pay Santana, Beckett, and Dice K around $60 million a year?
Gayle, Johan has only thrown FIVE innings at Fenway over the last four seasons and gave up just 2ER
Any of Johans bad numbers at Fenway come from BEFORE 2002. I wouldnt put so much weight on them.
Somehow I feel Minnesota has Crush on Boston. Just look at the gifts that Minny gave to boston.
David ortiz
Kevin Garnett
Manny Fernandez(NHL)…
no. 27,
Yes I think the Sox can pay those guys $60M. Throw in Buchholz and their top 4 starters will be making $61M and be the top rotation in all of baseball.
Also, I still dont see how Johan has performed poorly at Fenway. Can someone shed a little more light? When I check ESPN, he hasnt had a bad start there since pre-2002. Does anyone know when these bad starts occured?
gayle, when was johan’s last bad start at fenway?
Both are possible, but paying Santana, Beckett, and Dice-K more than 60 million in 3 years doesn’t seem likely. That is why I think the Twins and Red Sox are not doing more than trying to drive up the Yankees offer, and why I think the Yankees should not increase their offer.
Beckket -10 Mil for next 3 years
Dice-K – 8 Mil for the next 5 years
Even if they pay Santana 25 Mil, it all adds up to 43 Mil..How did u come up with 60 Mil over the next 3 years.
Yes Scooter, Brian Cashman is in his stealth mode hovering over the skies of Nashville and ready to make the decent to the ground.
Once quartered down, he won’t be playing nonsensical card games with fellow GM’s. Not Brian. He leaves nothing to chance by revealing his hand. Your prototypical “man with a plan”.
“The Fenway crowd can be tough on players that aren’t performing,”
I don’t see how this is a bit different from Yankee stadium. A couple years ago Yankee fans were booing Arod right off the field.
“the fact that we are hearing he doesnt want to play for Boston”
gayle, you said we are hearing it. all i wanted to know was where you were hearing this from because i had not. i didnt say it wasnt true.
With the Garza trade, the Twins now have some OF depth with Young and Pridie. Somebody pointed out Joe Nathan as well. I think the Twins could possibly move Nathan to the Cubs for Pie, adding yet another OF. I hope ~Adam is right when he says:
“The Twins are trying to make it so their favorite list makes the most ssense for them. And, I think that’s a list full of B+toA- pitchers. I don’t think they want to take our position players.”
Kennedy + Horne + Betances/Sanchez
I don’t think Ellsbury’s availability affects the negotation process. The Sox would have to offer both Lester and Buccholz to beat that package.
Why waste your most valuable trade chip (Santana) on position players when you can acquire position players by trading guys like Garza and Nathan, players who won’t net top notch pitching prospects?
Think about it.
I’ve come to the conclusion that because of:
a)The Twins ability to add position players through trading Garza and Nathan.
b)The Yankees lack of position player depth.
c)The Yankees stockpile of starting/relief pitchers.
Hughes and Joba Chamberlain are safe.
The only way the Sox can block the Yankees from Santana is if they offer both Buccholz and Lester, which would force the Yankees to trade either Joba or Hughes. If we’re talking about trading Joba or Hughes, maybe it’s best trade one of them for Bedard or Kazmir instead; a younger cheaper version of Johan Santana?
I love all this Santana trade talk. As a Twins lifer I love Santana, but with it being absolutely clear that the Twins aren’t in the running this year, I’d love to see a big trade for some young players.
From the MN perspective, Wang won’t do it. The Twins just aren’t interested to begin with, but beyond that the Twins are building for a run in the 2010 season, Wang is good, but the Twins seem to be looking harder at young pitchers who will be around for awhile.
Melky will almost definitely be in any trade the Twins work out with the Yankees. Let’s face it, we’re desperate in CF. He’s an established player who isn’t out of the Twins’ league. He’s not phenomenal, but he’s good enough to be an every day starter with Young and Cuddyer on either side of him and his stats are low enough to keep him in our salary range.
After the Young trade we’re desperate for SS and 3B as well. You all are set at those two spots, and while I don’t know anything about the Yankees prospects, if you have a SS or 3B in the minors who may be ready in a year or two that’s something the Twins will likely be looking at.
Personally, I’m seeing something like a Hughes/Cabrera/AA prospect 3B or SS trade working out.
You guys can have the 2008 world series with Santana, we’ll make a run in 2009 and stay for 2010.
SJ44,
Dont forget that Schilling initially said that he wanted to go to the yankees and didnt want to go to Boston. We all know how that turned out.
Money talks. If Boston are willing to move the right players and give him the money. I cant see why he would say no.
SANTANA AT FENWAY
So I found his ONE bad start at Fenway from his ROOKIE year that throws off his career #s.
3.2IP, 7ER
you peeps (including Pete) need to start looking at #s more closely before basing your arguments solely on them.
The start right after this one, Santana gave up 6ER in a short outing at Texas.
Almost all of Santana’s numbers came in 2000. ERA of 17.18
NYY-
In 3 years they will have to resign Beckett, I used the assumption that he would receive a similar deal, at least in $/year, to Johan. Also, although it may not go to the pitcher, when including Dice K’s posting fee, the top 3 in their rotation will cost them well over $60mil/year.
I realize that I am assuming Beckett will demand the same as Santana, but I can’t see him accepting to less than Santana. There is a chance of it, I just don’t think it’s realistic.
MNMike,
The Twins will never compete because their owner doesnt care about winning. Santana has a right to be pissed (see the salary dumps every season even in the midst of a playoff chase – most recently Luis Castillo)
Even if the Twins get some good young talent, their billionaire owner will let them all go in a few years. It’s pretty sad and I feel bad for all the good Minny fans.
http://www.baseball-reference......jo02.shtml
Just go up top and click on year splits. Breaks everything down by team, park, day, night
thanks Green Beret, people should have used that link before posting Santana’s Fenway #s as if his 3rd of 4th career start should be used in gauging someones entire career.
Ray-
The difference between the Yankee crowd and the Fenway crowd is that Santana has been dominant at Yankee Stadium and has well below average career numbers at Fenway. Without looking at the game logs, I was saying that with Santana not performing well at Fenway, he would be hearing boos from the crowd, while as a Yankee, he would be playing in a home stadium that has treated him well, and would have no reason to not perform at or near his career averages. However, now that I look at the game logs posted here, I see that Santana’s poor numbers at Fenway are based mostly on one bad start. However, I still believe that he would be more dominant at Yankee Stadium than Fenway.
No 27
put the Johan Fenway argument to rest. It is NOT a valid argument – see my posts and green berets
oops – nevermind
“My question to you is do you think the Red Sox can afford to pay Santana, Beckett, and Dice K around $60 million a year”
no. 27:
I could see the Boston Front Office doing that. Don’t forget that in 2009 Manny’s contract ($20 Million) and Schilling’s ($8 Million) can come of the books. Beckett
($10.5 and Dice K ($8.0) are relatively cheap, so they won’t be hard pressed to keep player salaries at a reasonable level.
I guess what would be more intriguing is gauging The Sawx’
interest in Nathan as a closer, now that he is rumored to be available. Imagine adding Papelbon to their starting rotation?
At the same time: Boston can also imagine a rotation of Santana/Wang/Hughes/Chamberlain and 1 more year of Andy Pettitte!
Where is Bobcat when you need him? My boring day at work would be helped if he showed up!
This has nothing to do with what Curt Schilling did 3 years ago.
Johan Santana doesn’t want to play for the Boston Red Sox.
He isn’t saying anything out of respect to the Twins. He will allow them to make the best possible deal but its not going to be with the Red Sox.
He will play it out in Minny before going to a team he doesn’t want to go to.
Money talks. Yes it does. So does going where you want to go AND making money.
Santana knows he will have that opportunity in 2008 at worst.
At best, he gets to go where he wants to go, and pick up a significant payday, in another another week or so.
Latham Joe :
Manny’s contract coming off the books is only money. The big factor is his protection for Ortiz in the lineup. Boston has no big run producers on the horizon and free agency offers little anytime soon. Pitchers will feel the need to pitch a gem for each start.
Boston has seen sample sizes of what happens when Manny has been Manny. Last year alone, his lost presence almost cost them the AL East.
Many of you may not going to agree with I am about to say, but I believe the Yankees are willing to give Minn. a package of Hughes/Cabrera/A. Gonzales or Betemit It makes more sense for the Yanks to keep IPK than Hughes for 2008 for a couple of reasons.
First, If you look at their minor league stats, their are pretty close. In the majors, IPK is more effective with his pitch count than Hughes. If you look at the their stats this year, it took IPK 7 innings to reach a pitch count in the middle 90′s, whereas Hughes with few exceptions had thrown 95 pitches by the 5th.
Second, IPK has a ceiling for 2008 of 175 innings, as compared to Hughes’ 150. With Hughes tendency to throw that many pitches per inning, his help to the Yanks in 2008 will be indeed, very limited.
Also, by including Hughes in the package, the Yankees should not have to fork out any other top pitching prospect for Santana, thus preserving their deep blue chip pitching prospects for themselves after 2008.
Basically, they would be trading our 2nd best pitcher (Hughes) for a great lefty pitcher (Santana), Melky and a minor leaguer. Melky is replaceable by FA Rowand. CF would not suffer a decline, and in 2009 Jackson and Tabata would be ready to join the big leagues alongside of Rowand.
So basically, if this package goes through, it would give the Yanks a rotation of:
Santana
Wang
Mussina
Pettite?
Joba
IPK
The Yanks would still have a slew of top blue chip pitchers left over: Horne, Brackman, Sanchez and Betances. However, if Hughes is offered in the package, Minn. SHOULD NOT get any other significant pitching prospect.
SJ44,
You keep saying Hank was the first one to stick it to Boras. At the time, at least, I thought the Sox did a pretty good job getting Daisuke for 6 years, $52M. I know Boras had no leverage there, but he failed at getting the Sox to negotiate against themselves. Don’t you think? I also think he’ll be better in coming years, despite the normal downward trend of Japanese pitchers.
Anyone heard any real rumors/news about Baltimore giving serious thoughts about dangling Bedard? There were rumblings maybe 30 days ago, but they quieted quickly.
Why not start considerations like these in tandem with pursuits of Johan? O’s need young pitching and have mentioned Farnsy. We could keep the Big 3, and end the heart-attacks assoc. with Farnsworth walkin towards the mound in the 8th all in one deal.
Is it really a fact that Santana doesn’t want to pitch in Boston? At first I thought it made sense considering his struggles at Fenway, but after looking at the numbers, that has really been exagerated. He may want to come to NY, but if he has the opportunity to get the contract that he wants without having to risk injury this year in Minnesota, it doesn’t make sense that he would pass that up.
If he came out publicly and said that he would not accept a trade to the Red Sox, that would certainly change this, but I don’t see that happening.
“Shooter” was an ex Twin from Minn and now a sportwriter. He’s probably shilling for the team with that proposed Sox trade