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Posada talks about his deal (and Santana)

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc, Podcast on Nov 29, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Here is the audio of Jorge Posada’s conference call with the media this afternoon:

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Brian Cashman was a no-show on the call. Either he didn’t want to answer the questions about Johan Santana or is leaving them to Hank Steinbrenner. Probably both.

ESPN.com is reporting that Boston has offered Jon Lester and Coco Crisp to Minnesota along with two prospects. If nothing else, that is an offer that will bleed the Yankees.

Lester is 11-2, 4.68 in his career and is coming off a very good start in the World Series. Crisp was not what Boston hoped when they traded for him, but he was a productive player in the AL Central for three seasons and is signed to a reasonable contract ($10.5 million over the next two seasons).

Lester is better and has more of a track record than Ian Kennedy and Crisp is a proven Major League player. Melky Cabrera is a better hitter and far cheaper, however. Phil Hughes and Cabrera trumps Lester and Crisp, I think. Then it’s a question of what other prospects to include.

Do not underestimate the power Santana has in this transaction. He has a full NTC and would clearly want a huge extension to get traded. To that degree, he can dictate where he wants to go.

Comments

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957 Responses to “Posada talks about his deal (and Santana)”

  1. Hughes... November 29th, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    SAVE PHIL HUGHES!

    That is all. Thank you.

  2. DVB Forever November 29th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    Santana to the Yankees. Pete will confirm this.

  3. Miller November 29th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    Please. There will be no trade today.

  4. Pissed of Yankee Fan November 29th, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    If Hughes is traded, I will become a Twins fan.

  5. ~Adam. November 29th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    Cashman wasn’t born yesterday, folks.

  6. Stephen November 29th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    A deal like that almost seems too easy for Boston: an expendable CF who has no place on the team next year, and a good young pitcher on a team with a surplus of pitching (to the degree that it’s possible to have too much pitching).

    If Cashman and Steinbrenner asked me, I’d advise that the Yankees should not panic and give up pieces more valuable to them than the Sox are to their own team.

  7. gayle November 29th, 2007 at 4:31 pm

    After listening to the Posada call my favortie line is when Posada thanks the Mets,”I appreciate everything they did” yes that lunch on Omar had a very positive effect in making the Yanks offer bigger so the least he could do is thank him for the free lunch lol.

    From a PR point of view having Cashman on the call makes it a different kind of call especially since he has not spoken to the press in a while so the question would have been about Santana etc etc.

    In that same vein Posada when asked said he didnt even speak to the Steinbrenners and the only person he talked to is Cash so that also says a lot.

  8. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    i hope everyone remembers their position on this hughes thing when he wins nine games with a 4.5 ERA next year and then suffers a series of injuries over the following three or four years.

  9. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    Way too easy for Boston.

  10. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:33 pm

    i’m just so confused. why would the yankees need a “number 1″ when they have wang who – as has been clearly chronicled here – is the very definition of an ace. so weird.

    unless, wait, maybe wang’s not really an ace? naahhh. what would posada know.

  11. keith November 29th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Ff he proves you wrong will you stop posting here? condescending prick.

  12. bottom line November 29th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Lester’s record is extremely misleading.

    I have seen many of his games and he is typically behind in counts, in and out of trouble and several times has been rescued from early exit by extraordinary defense behind him or questionable umpire third strike calls. This guy could take years to develop — very questionable command. I would compoare him to Alan Horne in that he has a live arm. But I’m quite certain Horne is better and will prove that in time. Kennedy is simply a different type of pitcher — but in his brief MLB career he has actually outpitched Lester. But Lester did have the good post season performance and this has evidently inflated his value.

  13. CaptainsCorner November 29th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Pete, re Posada, It doesn’t take a genius to know that Wang is not an ace. He was just thrown into that situation because the Yanks had no one better. Now Cash go get Santana.

  14. rconn23 November 29th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Umm… Lester is better than IPK? Based on what. Kennedy’s minor league numbers are far better than Lester’s.

    Granted he was ill, but Lester – aside from the World Series start against a deflated Colorado team – wasn’t that good.

  15. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    a) Kasey – Hughes will do far better than that.

    b) Santana wants to go to NY

    c) IPK + Melky + 2 of the Trenton boys (Tabata Horne Jackson Gardner) beats anything the Red Sox can come up with in terms of prospects.

  16. gayle November 29th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    oopos forget something it is really interesting to me that people have such an affinity for Hughes in terms of saying things like I will become a Twins fan if he is traded. This is a guy who although very highly touted has only pitched 1 year in the majors and not even a full year and the times that he did pitch mostly were so so. It is not like Joba who has even less MLB time but made an impact in high wire situations or someone even like Melky who has been here only a year plus or a long term Yankee who has been here long enough for fans to develop that special fandom relationship. Not quite sure I get it.

  17. rbizzler November 29th, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    Lester’s 11-2 mark is a bit of a mirage as he has shown a lack of command and has been a five inning pitcher in his brief MLB career. While you could chalk this up to inexperience, a high pitches/inning rate was also apparent in his minor league numbers. He gets extra points for being left-handed, but I am not sure that he is head and shoulders above IPK.

    Lester MLB: 74 BB’s in 144 innings, ERA+ 101 (which is basically average)

    Lester MiLB: 203 BB’s in 484 innings

  18. grafxkid November 29th, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    Damn you Boston!!

    We need a BULLPEN!

  19. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    Lester has crap command, he’s not better than Ian Kennedy.

  20. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    grafxkid: Don’t believe everything you read.

    Lester and Coco? Way, way too easy.

  21. YANKEE BIAS November 29th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    Hey Posada,

    Start calling Pettitte twice a week. And if Santana signs with Boston, make it everyday.

  22. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    grafx: We’re apparently working on David Riske and Mahay (both EXCELLENT), which would bump up our bullpen two notches.

    Santana doesn’t wanna go to Boston, remember although we cant officially hear about it cause it would be tampering, Santana has the final call on where he goes.

  23. Bob November 29th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Not to be cruel, but why would Minn. give up the best trading chip in baseball for a package that included Lester?

    Maybe he is recovered, but you never know when he could go into remission. Sure it sounds mean, but I wouldn’t take that risk.

  24. Thomas November 29th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Peter,
    With the rule 5 draft coming up soon, why wouldn’t the Yankees wait (this resigning) to make this official and keep an extra spot open to protect an additional player?

  25. Miller November 29th, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Who cares what Boston offers. For the last time this is all in Santana’s hands where he wants to go. They could offer Minny Ortiz, Manny, Beckett with some added prospects and if Santana doesnt want to go to Boston, guess what, he wont be pitching at Fenway next year.

  26. keith November 29th, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    my last post didnt show..hmmmmmm

  27. keith November 29th, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Trying again

    1. Hughes (MLB)
    2. Joba
    3. Kennedy
    4. Jackson
    5. Tabata
    6. Horne
    7. Betances
    8. Montero
    9. Cabrera (MLB)
    10. Brackman

    BP’s top 10 Yankees under 25

  28. Ed November 29th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    Hughes & Cabrera easily trumps Lester & Crisp. Kennedy & Cabrera possibly does as well.

    Lester throws harder than Kennedy but has no control. Even in the minors, he walked a lot of guys. His overall numbers last season were almost identical to Farnsworth’s numbers. Rasner’s numbers so far are better than Lester’s, so if you want to go off proven track record, we should be talking about him rather than Hughes/Joba/Kennedy.

    And I’d certainly say the cancer history increases his risk of future health issues.

    Red Sox fans overvalue Lester like Yankee fans overvalue Kennedy.

    I’d also value Crisp slightly over Melky, ignoring the 10x salary difference.

  29. Brian (Red Sox Fan) November 29th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    From my perspective, the Red Sox are totally in the driver’s seat on this. The Yankees cannot afford to have the Sox throw Sanatana, Beckett and Dice-K at them for at least the next three years. They HAVE to outbid Boston.

    And they know that Boston won’t be bluffing, especially when it comes to starting pitching. They gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett, and were “stuck” with Mike Lowell’s contract in that deal. They are not just trying to up the ante …. they will bid high (remember the $51 million posting fee for Dice-K) because they are serious.

    A happy sidebar for the Red Sox is that, if the Yankees do get Santana, the Sox will have forced them to pay an excruciating price. The Sox went hard after Dice-K to avoid a Wang, Hughes, Dice-K troika for the foreseeable future. The Yankees are now behind the same 8 ball the Sox sought to avoid.

    Also, let’s get real ….. Hank Steinbrenner’s ego will drive the Yankee offer much more than Cashman’s talent evaluation. The New Boss seems pretty secure in his knowledge of all things baseball, and he will certainly see the acquisition of Santana, at any cost, as a necessity.

  30. mel November 29th, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    I think people need to analyze Lester without bringing the cancer survival into it.

    It has no indication of how he will pitch, what pitches he has, how many guys he’ll strike out, how many guys get on base, etc. If anything he’ll be better than he was over the past year. He’ll have less of a mental burden and will be able to concentrate on baseball.

    I still like our guys better.

  31. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    why is lester and coco too easy? lester’s a lefty who has proven that, at the very least, he can compete at the big league level, including throwing a pretty decent game in october. ian kennedy is… um, not that.

    coco crisp can be an electric leadoff hitter or a light-hitting, noodle-armed centerfielder, depending on the season. the belief could easily be that he just needs to get back out of the limelight, like he was in cleveland.

    melky’s cheaper than coco, but to say he’s better isn’t a clear-cut argument.

    kennedy’s MINOR league numbers may be better than lester’s, but lester has proven himself – at least to some extent – in the bigs. kennedy has not.

    it’s not too easy for boston just because you want it to be. the fact could very well be that the twins prefer the red sox players.

    the fact could very well be that, like seemingly every armchair GM here on the board, cashman and co have seriously overvalued their own prospects.

    and no, if hughes wins more than 9 games next year, i’m not going to stop posting here. when he goes 11-9 with that 4.5 ERA and santana is 18-5 with a 3.2 you can tell me to eat crow because hughes won those two extra games.

    the kid has sustained elbow, shoulder and hammy injuries ALREADY, lost velocity on his fastball, lost command on his curve, and hasn’t proven that he can consistently command his change. but, yeah, keep telling yourself he’s god’s gift.

  32. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    Dog is really stirring the pot on WFAN… alot of people hate him… i love him, he makes yankee fans nuts… I am a yankee fan – but i love him

  33. Hughes... November 29th, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    To the fans bashing Lester: wake up.

    How many other lefties under 25 have his stuff?

    TWO: Kazmir and Hamels.

    Guess what? Kazmir also has command issues. You wouldn’t trade Kennedy for Kazmir?

    And take Lester’s numbers with a grain of salt. The guy had cancer. Happy he’s okay now and he should be good from here on out as long as he can control his walks.

  34. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 4:46 pm

    Too bad Philip Hughes is pretty much better than Dice-K buddy.

  35. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    and why wouldn’t santana want to play in boston? because he likes the “big stage in new york,” right? what with boston being such a small-market team and all. i mean, it’s not as if the red sox play ten games in yankee stadium every year or anything. oh, wait. they’re the defending world champs, he’d be pitching behind a potent offense and in a rotation with josh beckett. what, exactly, is so off-putting about that scenario if you’re johan santana? the money? the spotlight? the opportunity to go into a season the odds-on favorite to win the world series? yeah, sounds AWFUL.

  36. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    Ah, this is where everybody went. I saw this about 10 minutes ago in the nyyfans forum. Looks like a legit Bobcat update. Let’s hope the Yankees don’t blink and insert Hughes. I’ll be $$%%##@!

    Quote:
    Bobcat
    November 29th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
    Quick Santana update:

    1) As expected, this is the “public posturing” portion of the negoiations. Feed the media, try to force the trade partners to up the ante. You read what you’re supposed to read.

    2) None of the published “scoops” are original. They are team-fed. Take them for what they are worth. Nothing.

    3) The teams are negotiating. The Twins are trying to get the Yankees to add more. The Red Sox are NOT giving up their big boys.

    4) The Yankees and Twins have agreed on various combinations. The Twins are now (as expected) trying to extract more because of the “other trade partners”.

    5) The Yankees have much more to gain by adding Santana and much more to lose by not getting Santana (duh). They can add pieces if they want, but it won’t be a big boy.

    6) The Twins are hoping/assuming the Yankees think Santana wants to play somewhere other than NY. The Yankees can’t officially confirm same with Santana, as that would be tampering. Officially.

    7) This is proceeding at its expected pace. Impatience is expensive.

    This may be less than what you were looking for, but I’m not in a position to “announce”. Never have been. I can confirm or deny published reports. You have that information above.

  37. Ducky Bent November 29th, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    If the Sox deal is legit, I hope Bobcat is right about Johan not wanting to play in Boston and exercises his rights to refuse to negotiate with them.

    That said, it would be nice if Johan went public with his wishes. If this is a negotiating ploy by the Twins and Sox to drive up the Yanks cost, why would Santana allow it? Why would he want the Yanks – the team he supposedly wants to play for – pay up with more high level prospects?

  38. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    Kasey, I know Lester has MORE experience than Kennedy.

    But last I checked Kennedy WAS 2-0 with a like 1.8 ERA last season in the majors right? Even if I agree that he isn’t proven he HAS proven that he can compete at this level.

    He’s actually fondly mentioned NY multiple times, and never said a word about Bahston. In NY he’d be the Ace for the biggest sports franchise in history. In Boston, he probably wouldn’t be the Ace due to seniority of Josh Beckett.

    There’s something huh?

  39. DVB Forever November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)….GO AWAY !

  40. jorge November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    Until we hear from santana himself, dont assume he only wants to play in new york and for the yankees. If a team is offering a huge sum in exchange for him dropping his no trade clause, im sure he will seriously consider it.

  41. steve November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

    if it requires giving up melky… absolutely not. no way. i’d rather have boston take santana then us lose melky. you guys are nuts if you think otherwise.

  42. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    Brian with more of his nonsense about Hank Steinbrenner. Proving once again, he has no idea what he is talking about.

    What “excruciating price” is it going to cost the Yankees?

    Has ANY deal been done yet?

    How ’bout this. Wait until a deal is made, then offer perspective and opinion.

  43. Nathan November 29th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    Bobcat,
    I just started reading your posts. Sounds like you really know your stuff. Can this Santana trade happen with hughes, jackson, and one or two low level guys?

  44. helno51 November 29th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    Hey Kasey

    “and why wouldn’t santana want to play in boston?”

    have you ever been to boston? could there be any more drunken borderline racist sullys there? from what i have heard santana likes the idea of playing where there is a big latin american community and ive been to fenway you can count the number of minorities in that stadium on your fingers.

  45. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    Melky is a nice player but is easily replacable. You include him all day, everyday. I like Melky, but the real concern is loosing Hughes. Remember, you do have to give up players of value to get something in return.

  46. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    wherever santana goes, he’s an ace. period. schilling got the opening day nod last year and beckett seemed to handle it pretty well, don’t you think?

    2-0 with a 1.8 ERA is impressive. you should ask chase wright and tyler clippard how big an indication two starts are of a player’s ability to perform at the major league level.

  47. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    “have you ever been to boston? could there be any more drunken borderline racist sullys there? from what i have heard santana likes the idea of playing where there is a big latin american community and ive been to fenway you can count the number of minorities in that stadium on your fingers.”

    yeah, ortiz and ramirez seem to HATE it there.

  48. Miller November 29th, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    steve
    November 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
    if it requires giving up melky… absolutely not. no way. i’d rather have boston take santana then us lose melky. you guys are nuts if you think otherwise.
    __________________________________________________________-

    ?????????????????????

  49. zack November 29th, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    For those saying Lester has great stuff and has proven he can compete in the big leagues, go take a look at his #s and some of his starts. He has proven that throughout his career he cannot command his pitches and rarely goes beyond 5 innings. His k:BB is atrocious and has never struck out a lot of guys. He has proven that he can be league average and walk the line between disaster and decent start. if you are the Twins, do you really make that the centerpiece of a trade for your superstar? Oh, and Crisp? Crisp had an ops+ the last 2 seasons right around 80. That’s awful, just terrible. He can make some good catches in the OF but has a terrible arm. Plus, he is not going to improve–like Youkilis, hes old enough where he is what he is–a 28 year old who isn’t what anyone could call electrifying, or even league average.

    Just remember, Smith is a smart GM, he knows who Crisp is and who Lester is, and I would be absolutely shocked if this was the final package–its a start…

  50. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    i hope these trade rumor leaks cease or the trade gets done soon… i am going to take the wordpress server down with my refreshes on this blog otherwise

  51. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    kasey- the racism, weather, and that boston is far from being the center stage. they’ve won as many world series as the blue jays in the past 90 years.

  52. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

    I’m from Boston, and there are a zillion latinos in this city. I’m 4 minutes from downtown, and the city I live in is 58% hispanic. There are lots of latinos here. Don’t believe everything you see on TV. Like Bobcat says, they only tell you what you’re supposed to hear. 80)

  53. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    BTW, I am a Yankee fan from Boston, and not a Redsox fan.

  54. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    For the first ever, I heard the BoSox piece on 1050 and immediately went, “for god’s sake, offer them Hughes now!”

    I don’t know if I’m losing it or not. :)

  55. rb15 November 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    lowercase steve, so you’re a red sox troll, huh? cool. Melky’s good, but I’ve already wished him the best in Minnesota, myself. I’ll look forward to seeing him again at the ASG in 2010.

    Guys, I think we should just trust what we’re hearing from Bobcat, esp. since there are rumors out now that Nathan’s being traded to the Brewers. Remember what he said this morning and last night (I’m assuming Bobcat’s a guy, which might be wrong, for which I apologize to all womanhood including myself).

  56. keith November 29th, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    Kazmir (19-20yr old)Minor League #
    ERA WHIP
    2.41 1.12
    Lester (18-23yr old)
    3.33 1.31
    Hamels(19-22)
    1.43 0.95
    Hughes(18-20)
    2.09 0.86
    Kennedy(21-22)
    1.87 0.97

    Which one of these is not like the others? Which one does not belong?

  57. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    Yeah well, there is also that little bit of indication that Kennedy had close to 200 minor league innings at a sub 2 ERA and was minor league pitcher of the year.

    Id say in combination thats makes a pretty big statement.

    You’re just sitting here arguing for the sake of arguing. You can say Kennedy isn’t that great all you want. He is.

    Hughes has a 4.46 ERA in the majors and he is GONNA SUCK, while Lester and his 4.5 will be AWESOME.

    Get your head, out of your ass.

  58. rbizzler November 29th, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    I take Lester’s numbers with a grain of salt because that’s what they were before his illness. And to say that has electric stuff on par with Kazmir is laughable. Have you watched him pitch at all? He is a nibbler who needs to throw more strikes.

    Now is not the time for doom and gloom posters. Hey Kasey, have you ever stopped to realize that the Yanks have leverage too (it is called Santana’s NTC). What makes you think that he WOULD want to play in Boston? Panic moves are never the way to go.

  59. helno51 November 29th, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Kasey – in the last 5 years how many times has the manny and boston relationship almost broke up? and maybe ortiz does like it there but that completely sidesteps the point that santana has reportedly said he wants to go to a place where there is a large latin american community and there isnt one at fenway. thats a fact and you can ignore it all you want but it only makes you look silly.

  60. swo November 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Kasey: Hughes has had an elbow injury? I heard about his shoulder back in 2004 or 2005, but that was pretty minor and never popped up again. But I never heard of him having problems with his elbow. That’s news to me.

    Yeah, so far the guy seems pretty injury prone and has already lost some zip on the fastball, but any pitcher who has recovered from two serious muscle tears is bound to lose a tick or two of velocity. Especially considering that so much of pitching utilizes the legs.

    And regarding the changeup, lets keep in mind that the Yankees were, ideally, not going to use Hughes at all in 2007, and he would have spent the time developing that third pitch. Obviously, with Pavano and Igawa, things didn’t exactly work out as planned. I’m sure that his Spring Training regimen will consist of trying to perfect that third pitch until he’s blue in the face.

    Do I think he’s God’s gift? Of course not. But he has the potential to be something much more than he showed us in 2007.

  61. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    “kasey- the racism, weather, and that boston is far from being the center stage. they’ve won as many world series as the blue jays in the past 90 years.”

    racism: it’s working out pretty well for ortiz and ramirez there, wouldn’t you say?

    weather: um, i hate to break it to you but the boston weather and the new york weather aren’t terribly different. it’s not LA vs. chicago we’re talking about here.

    center stage: they’ve won two world series in four years. like it or not, boston and the yankees are the marquee franchises in professional baseball. sorry.

  62. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Honeslty I don’t think it would matter about the racism in the city if Johan would go to Boston or not, but it just seems like there are more latin players on the Yankees then on Boston. I mean who does Boston have beside Manny Papi and Lugo?

  63. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    This just in:
    Santan is going to the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters for 65 billion yen and a nintendo Wii for theo…

    Surprised no one saw this coming

  64. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Hughes is going to be terrific. Maybe not that ice cold ace we’ve seen in the minors, but clearly a top end, dominant arm for years to come. The kid has all the tools, and you just don’t let that go.

  65. mel November 29th, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    Real World,

    Can you tell if it was posted here or nyyfan.com? Did Bobcat post it there or is it a cut and paste job?

    Thanks.

  66. Dan November 29th, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    has there been any word from bobcat?

  67. ~Adam. November 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    I’m still sticking to my theory. Twins want to get their CF from the Nathan trade, unless they can get Elisbury for Santana. Boston would be nuts to do that.

    I think a Yankees package looks like Kennedy, Horne, Betances… ??? maybe ohlendorfe. or Hughes and lower level guys.

    All this stuff we’re reading is disinformation on everyone’s part. Melky and Coco are good CF but there’s better to be had from the Twins standpoint. Price-wise and talent-wise.

  68. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    We have no clue what will become of hughes… The hughes we saw pitch so well down the stretch did not even have the good fastball he had before the injury….. Having Hughes, Joba and Kennedy or two of the three would not be the end of the world

  69. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    not to quibble, but Boston’s weather is a little harsher than NY. Maybe not for most of baseball season, but probably in April and October, Boston can get quite a bit harsher.

  70. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    Crisp is making 5 million a year too… Lets not forget that… Not alot for boston or the yanks, but might make melky look better to the twins

  71. RSM November 29th, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    You guys can disagree with me, but I say Kennedy, Cabrera (who we WILL miss when runners regularly score from first with Damon’s weak arm), and Horne or Tabata, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT. The Blosox are bluffing, and I say CALL IT! I just don’t see them forking over the $150 million Santana wants to waive his no-trade.

    Worst case scenario, we go with Wang, Joba, Hughes, Mussina, and Kennedy, with Horne in the wings. I’m fine with that.

  72. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    manny, not so much
    weather, not terribly different, but different
    center stage, no billboards in times square for boston
    just speculation, but i’m sure santana can see the difference pinstripes make to a legacy. as much as it pains me to say, in boston, he would be an add on. in ny, he could be the reason for a ws ring.

  73. mel November 29th, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    So Crisp makes 10x what Melky makes. Is he 10 times better? hmmm…

  74. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    Mel – More like: Is he even better?

  75. Blargh November 29th, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    “All this stuff we’re reading is disinformation on everyone’s part. Melky and Coco are good CF but there’s better to be had from the Twins standpoint. Price-wise and talent-wise.”

    Agreed; I suscribe to the idea of Nathan will get the Twins position players from the NL Central, and then the Twins will want cheap, young pitchers in a trade for Santana. Emphasis on cheap ;)

  76. rb15 November 29th, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    I would trade Melky for Santana in a second. I agree, Damon’s arm stinks, but still. I think here’s what we do in that situation: Bobby in RF, Damon in CF, Matsui in LF, use Shelley and Brett Gardner to spell Matsui and Damon, and replace Damon if we’re playing a team that runs a lot (Angels).

  77. swo November 29th, 2007 at 5:08 pm

    Adam, there’s no way the Yankees are trading Betances. He is still a ways off from the Majors. They’re better off trading people that would be blocked from the Majors anyway, if that makes sense.

    Besides, he’s got a ton of potential, and it would be a travesty for the Yankees to not even wait for him to pitch a full season before unloading him.

  78. Go NYY November 29th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    Let me get this straight. The Red Sox are gonna trade for Santana, giving up Lester and Coco Crisp. The Yankees on the other hand have to give up the number one pitching prospect in baseball. This is logical. If we have to give up Hughes, they should have to give up Buccholtz or Ellsbury or both. I dont see why our price is higher than the Red Sox. Seems biased to me. We should keep on the path of building from within. This Santana trade is setting us up for disaster.

  79. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    You can talk all you want about the “kids”.

    But, don’t kid yourself.

    If the Red Sox rotation is Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling and Buchholz, with their bullpen, there is no way the Yankees staff, as presently constructed is better.

    Its even worse if Pettitte retires.

    Let’s be candid here. The Yankees need Santana. If they lose him, it will cost them MORE to get somebody else and that pitcher won’t be as good as Santana.

    If its Hughes, then Hughes has to go.

    Santana in the Yankees rotation changes everything.

  80. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    no, no billboards in times square for boston. just an entire city completely devoted to a franchise. real quick, who’s boston’s cross-town rival that divides the city? off the top of your head…

    the racism thing is a joke. ortiz, manny, lugo, tavarez, ellsbury (native american), crisp (african american), matsuzaka, okajima, etc. they’re not playing in mobile, alabama, man.

    the weather’s a non-issue. santana’s not andruw jones.

    the only valid point you make is that in boston, he’d be an add-on whereas in new york, he’d be THE guy. i mean, with the exception of jeter. and a-rod. other than that, though, he’d be THE guy. except for mo. but, after that, santana. number one with a bullet.

  81. ~Adam. November 29th, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    Blargh-
    this thing is going to run through the meetings. They’ll shop Nathan a lot cuz he’s got a lot of value with his talent and price.

    look for them to get a promising young CF that way.

  82. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    Can’t trade Hughes.

  83. Agent47 November 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    I am calling the redsox’s offer a bluff cashman don’t give in. Stay firm with your offer.

  84. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    thank you, sj44 for injecting a little bit of reality.

    and for those crying foul that boston’s offer isn’t as good as the yankees, that’s life. sometimes a team takes what they want to. ask kevin mchale which offers were on the table for kevin garnett. you think the celtics really gave up the best package?

  85. Global Warming November 29th, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    Can’t let them get Santana.

    If it’s Hughes, I’ll drive him to Minny myself.

  86. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    No matter what happens with the offers

    We are the NEW YORK YANKEES

    If Santana wants to be a Yankee then its up to him. We arent about one player (IE the Arod opt out) We made a fair offer, take it or leave it.

  87. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    STAY FIRM CASH, THEY’RE BLUFFING YOU ! AND A BIG HELLLLLLLL NO TO ROBI OR JOBA

  88. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    “We arent about one player (IE the Arod opt out)”

    funniest post of the day. how’d that situation play out? last i checked, the ONE PLAYER is getting 300 million, some of which is contingent upon his SINGULAR chase of the home run record. hilarious.

  89. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    racism thing is changing. garnett needed to be persuaded, but was and decided to give boston a shot. looks like that will pave the way for more athletes in the future to change their mind about boston.

    racist comments don’t fly at the stadium. at fenway, even recently, they get chuckled at. i am sure though, that this will not be the case in not too far away future.

  90. On D Ball November 29th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    Please, if there is a God in heaven, don’t let the Yankees get this Santana chap. He will only take valuable starts away from our young talent.

  91. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    Kasey,

    I don’t think Olney’s reported Red Sox offer is going to get it done.

    However, if you are the Yankees, you can’t let him go to Boston. Just can’t let that happen.

    If it means giving up Hughes, you do it. Mainly because they have Chamberlain and other quality RH prospects in the organization.

    Sometimes, to make a deal, it has to hurt a bit.

    You don’t lose Johan Santana over Phil Hughes. You just don’t.

    If they do, that’s a bad call on their part.

  92. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    That SINGULAR record (if he breaks it) means so much mroe production for NYY.

    I don’t know what your allegiance or team is but you are ridiculous. Maybe you should tell me your team so I can ridicule you?

  93. Go NYY November 29th, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    This is like a giant game of BS. Specualting what it will take to trade for Santana is impossible. Im still thinking a team will jump in and sweep him away, someone like the Dodgers. Their system is rich with prospects and they need to give Joe Torre a bit of talent. Why would Santana decline a trade to the Dodgers? Its a great situation.

  94. Mo November 29th, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    You know, there are certain people on this blog that act with respect towards others, even if they may vehemently disagree with them. Then there is kasey. Man, I know that this is a blog, and you can say basically what you want however you want to. But the condescension in your writing is astounding and incredibly rude. You are on a blog. Occasionally you will have to suffer some fools or deal with people who disagree with you. Do it with some class. For someone who tries to write weighty, meaningful music, you come off as petulant and condescending. I think everyone on the blog will echo my sentiments when I respectfully request that you try to treat others with respect. Thanks and all the best.

  95. On D Ball November 29th, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    Actually if the Yankees really want this Santana chap, I suggest they send this Arod guy.

    He will bring in all kinds of fans to that other team and help to reduce the Yankee payroll.

    The Yankees have enough fans and the other team has lots of empty seats.

  96. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Thank You SJ… I’ve been trying to say that for days to all those who think Hughes, Melky, and AJ is too much for Santana.

    It’s a big price, but if it means adding Santana and keeping him from the Sox, it’s well worth it. Boston with Santana is a nightmare scenario (esp if they keep Buchholz)

  97. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    From nyyinsider.com

    ” The Yanks Boss’s and Brian Cashman are thinking of re-working the Santana trade so that Phil Hughes in not included. This would not be a deal breaker from what I’ve heard. What the Yankees would do is throw out players like Ian Kennedy (would have to be in), Melky Cabrera (would have to be in), Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson, Alan Horne and Dan McCutchen. I was also told that Alberto Gonzalez may be a throw-in on the Yanks side just for the Twins could have another SS option (wouldn’t be a bad idea on the Yanks part). I could see a Kennedy, Cabrera, Tabata and Horne (what the hell let’s throw in Alberto Gonzalez just to look nice) deal get done. “
    I would actually do that deal before surrendering Phil Hughes. Also, sorry for the lack of updates, I’ve been VERY busy

  98. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    ahoef, i’m a yankees fan. and if you can’t see the irony in the comment that the a-rod contract thing is an example of the yankees being “bigger than one player,” then i can’t help you, buddy. i mean, come on. ridicule me all you want, it doesn’t change the hilarity of catherine’s statement. a-rod, in his entire career, has ALWAYS been bigger than his team, bigger than the game. have you been asleep the last three years?

    sj44, i agree completely. hughes COULD be very good. santana ALREADY IS great. the math’s pretty simple.

  99. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    I’d say lets play the BS game if Minny is stupid to take that deal we go elsewhere w/ an offer, no need to up anything since we know what is going on.

  100. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    “how’d that situation play out? last i checked, the ONE PLAYER is getting 300 million, some of which is contingent upon his SINGULAR chase of the home run record. hilarious.”

    Call me naive if you want, and you probably will, but here’s how I look at that contingency contract. It’s basically kind of like saying “if you break these records, you get more money. You will break these records if you stay healthy. If you stay healthy, and do not leave our team, you will earn more money.” I don’t know. It’s kind of like the Yankees trying not to pay too much in case he craps out halfway through the contract.

  101. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    If WE had Santana and the Twins wanted him for Hughes, Melky, and AJ… you would all be singing a different tune. We would be freaking out at the possibility of losing the best pitcher in baseball for 3 maybes.

  102. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    The only problem with the Dodgers is, Frank McCourt has not shown he is a “big boy” when it comes to spending money on players.

    Yes, they have the prospects. But, will they pay Santana?

    That’s the caveat here.

    Its just not the prospects, its the contract AND its getting Santana to waive his no trade.

    I think he would waive his no trade to go to the Dodgers. I don’t think the Dodgers want to pay him 20+ million per year for the next 6 years.

  103. deadrody November 29th, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    Oy. Lester is 11-2 in his career, but he did actually pitch before he got to Boston. If there is anyone on earth – save Peter – that would evaluate Lester vs. Kennedy based on 13 decisions, they are complete fools.

    Kennedy and Cabrera is – AT WORST – a wash with Crisp and Lester. Financially that deal is far better with Kennedy and Cabrera, and frankly, I would give the edge in talent to the Yankee tandem as well. Kennedy’s minor league numbers are ridiculously better than Lester’s, AND there is a small sample of outstanding results in the bigs. Lester’s is really not markedly bigger.

  104. helno51 November 29th, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    kasey – you are missing the point. its not so much that boston fans are racist although some of them definitely are, its that he has said he wants to play in a latin american community and it simply doesnt exist in fenway.

  105. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 5:23 pm

    I seem to recall the Yanks having a winning record against the Sox and their deadly rotation this year. In fact, I seem to recall the Yanks cuffing them around pretty good once the team got healthy.

  106. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    Kasey -

    I *am* new to this blog, and that just now was the first time you didn’t talk down to me.

    I can see what you are saying, but ARod making a statement out of signing a contract on his own to stay in pinstripes till the end of his career (in my eyes) says a lot.

    In terms of the deals: Look at the nyyinsider post.

    If you are going on the basis of Lester and Crisp vs IPK and Melky, thats that, but Trenton is SO STACKED with all kinds of 4 star recruits, that we can just add people on end, and its not like Minn doesnt need the players.

    Boston cant do that.

  107. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    SJ, they paid a ton (at the time) for Derek Lowe. They made a horrific signing for Pierre. You could argue that they’ve spent too much already, but it doesnt seem like the Dodgers problem is that they wont spend. Plus, you’d think Torre would have some input and had already discussed future moves when he agreed to manage. I dunno… I wouldnt rule them out due to the $$.

  108. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    last I checked Masterson, Lester and Crisp aren’t the most healthiest projected player in their system

  109. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    There are plenty of Latin Americans in Boston and the surrounding area. I am white and am easily in the minority (to Latin Americans) in my area (suburb of Boston).

    I dont think Boston is seen as diverse as some other cities and certainly nothing like SoCal but I dont think that should be a major factor in Johan’s decision (if he is really worried about moving to an area with diversity).

    That said, STAY AWAY from Boston Johan!

  110. The Monk November 29th, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    The Twins would not take Lester and Crisp with two B-level guys for Santana. If they would, then they’d be screwed and the Hughes/Cabrera package they want from the Yanks is pure overreaching. If the Twins settle for anything less than Ellsbury/Buchholz from the Red sux, then they’re selling too low. That package beats Kennedy/Cabrera (and one) but who cares. The Yanks simply should not dump Hughes — this kid can be incredible and under contract for years. Giving that up is pure stupidity.

    Look: the Yanks had no unassailable #1 in ’96 and won the Series; the Yanks had a pile of #2 pitchers in ’98 and won 125 games; the Yanks traded for the defending two-time Cy Young Award winner and best pitcher of his generation before ’99, and he had his worst season to date before becoming just a #4 starter in the World Series; in 2000, the Yanks had no ace (remember Clemens went just 13-8 and stunk against the A’s in the ALDS), and AGAIN won the World Series. The Yanks do not need Santana. How many World Series did the Braves of Glavine/Smoltz/Maddux win? One. How many Series did the D’Backs of Schilling/Johnson win? One. Remember the ’02 NLDS — Cardinals in three over the DBacks even with Schilling and Johnson pitching games one and two. A Beckett/Santana combination does not end the “who will win the World Series” discussion in baseball.

    But the Yanks need better than one decent start in four games — the ratio they’ve received in the past few years. To that end, add depth. Kennedy, Melky, and one of Tabata/Melancon/Marquez/Cox for Haren. That means Hughes, Haren, Wang, Joba and hopefully Pettitte or Moose, with Sanchez and Horne up next. Enough with the Santana infatuation — Haren is a 34-start guy who is at the upper echelon of the AL pitchers and costs less than $17M over the next THREE years. Even with the Yanks’ luxury tax burden, that’s less than $24M. Santana will cost the Yanks $28M/year minimum from 2009-on ($20M minimum on the contract, 40% luxury tax).

    Save Hughes. Get Haren. Stop hemorrhaging money on players whose marginal benefit is outweighed by their exorbitant cost. Bleacher seats in the New Yankee Stadium should not cost $75 per just to pay for a pitcher who will be headed on a downslope by 2010.

  111. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    ahoef,

    i’m not sure it’ll work that way. if minnesota’s getting three players they value highly from boston, the yankees can’t just keep piling on players that minnesota isn’t necessarily in love with. with trades like these, it’s about quality as much as – if not more than – quantity.

    in terms of condescending people, i apologize. but some of the stuff posted here is absolutely ludicrous. and people certainly feel obligated to let me know when they think i’m full of it.

  112. Loserbob November 29th, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    kasey, you’re the voice of reason in this sea of fans who’s clearly drank the cool-aid that Cashman’s been serving. Stuff like “Don’t trade Melky!” makes me wonder.

    Lester > IPK, Crisp > Melky. Lester is a LHP. LHP are much more valuable than RHP. Twins remember what a nice player Crisp was when he was playing in Cleveland.

    If Yankees won’t include Hughes, Twins make the deal with Red Sox and you can’t blame them.

  113. bskul November 29th, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    crisp stinks. I’m not a melky fan but he’s better than crisp. that’s a fact. lester, from what I’ve seen, isn’t anything special. he’s a decent middle of the order rotation kind of guy.

  114. Global Warming November 29th, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    Hey Phil, do you also recall our rotation getting knocked around in the playoffs while Bostons flew right past us?

  115. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    this is a completely different situation but flashback….

    Arizona asked NY for Soriano AND Posada for Schilling (and schill supposedly preferred NY)

    they then asked.. and traded Schilling for Brandon Lyon and Casey Fossum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    its not unheard of for teams to make foolish decisions but Minnestoa seems to be smarter than that.

  116. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    “save hughes. get haren.”

    here’s the thing about that. you want haren, you’re dealing with billy beane. in that scenario, santana may actually come CHEAPER.

  117. NYY November 29th, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    Phil
    November 29th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
    I seem to recall the Yanks having a winning record against the Sox and their deadly rotation this year. In fact, I seem to recall the Yanks cuffing them around pretty good once the team got healthy.

    I Remember those win when Yanks swept the Sox at Yankee Stadium while the Sox were resting Manny to be ready for their World Series Run.

  118. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Lester and Crisp > Fossum and Lyon… gulp

  119. Kelli in Conn. November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Brian (Red Sox fan) -

    Thanks once again for your overwhelming obsession of the New York Yankees. Being little brother baseball must be painful to bear but you can share it with the average Boston fan ….
    http://img86.echo.cx/img86/2235/freckles7md.jpg

  120. Go NYY November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    What makes lefthanded pitchers more valuable? The whole lefty-lefty thing is extremely overrated.

  121. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Guys: I need your help.

    How do I convince my parents to let me go to London for a few days over Christmas break to stay with a friend?

    I’ve found a BA flight that would be $621 total, but I don’t have a way of paying for it on my own without getting quite a talking-to from the biological processing units.

  122. Matt November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    This is so fun to see two well managed teams like the Yankees and Twins play their games…It’s gonna be interesting to see what works and what doesn’t…I still think Santana will fetch a lot of talent that you NYY fans will not like to see leave…but once he pitches for you, it will not matter what you have up…

  123. G. Love November 29th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    still hanging out here on the ledge

  124. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    NYY: Do you also remember that Manny wasnt resting, he started those games and got hurt?

    Lester > IPK and Crisp > Melky are just two such crap statements, you can argue both ways, but I really think IPK has an edge on Lester, and Melky has a salary and age edge on Crisp.

  125. McNuggets November 29th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    The Dodgers had an awful offseason last year.

    Players they signed during last offseason:

    Juan Pierre – terrible offensive player and that is exaggerated by batting him in the top of the lineup. And they gave him 44 million over 5 years. Absurd.

    Jason Schmidt – even if he stayed healthy he was grossly overpaid. but of course he couldn’t stay healthy

    Nomar Garciaparra – They shouldnt have re-signed him considering the young guys he is blocking. And Nomar isn’t any good with the bat anymore, which was his only strength to begin with.

    Luis Gonzalez – it was just a one-year contract but he still took at-bats away from their younger guys who are better than him.

    And I’m probably forgetting about one or two others.

    Their GM Ned Coletti is an idiot. The Pierre signing alone should be enough to get a GM fired. And bringing in Torre probably won’t help their younger guys get the playing time they deserve. They better have something else planned this offseason. Especially since Colorado, Arizona, and San Diego are all better teams right now.

  126. Boston Dave November 29th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    thank you Matt…. good points

  127. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    rebecca,

    tell your parents it’s either london or you start dating somebody ten years older than you.

  128. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    Santana would be a difference maker…Hughes is just potential. Take the proven lefty…at best, Hughes is going to grow into what Santana already is…and that is a best case scenario.

  129. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Rebecca…there is only one way…tell them it is a school-sponsored trip where you’ll get academic credit in addition to life experience. It always works.

  130. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    kasey: you’re a musician, and I can only assume you’re older than Rebecca. Send pictures. Dirty ones. You’re her new “he’s my boyfriend unless I go to London” boyfriend.

  131. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    Phil: That won’t work. I’ve used that excuse twice already–for a summer and for an entire term last spring.

    The issue is the airfare. I’d feel horrible spending that money with no way to pay it back.

  132. whoa November 29th, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    Boston’s offer is laughable.

    DO NOT TRADE HUGHES UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

  133. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    Rebecca – why do you think your parents will say no? Is it just the money, or some other parental concern? Have you ever travelled by yourself out of the country?

    It’s a great opportunity and you’re what, a college senior? This is the perfect time to go before you are tied down with a job, rent, blah, blah, blah. Plus, when you are young, you can stay in much cheaper places. Once you get used to the high life, it’s hard to go back.

  134. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    “DO NOT TRADE HUGHES UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!”

    That seems a bit too extreme…under any circumstances? A proven stud ace vs. a guy with potential to maybe, possibly, potentially grow into a stud ace? Not to mention a LHP at the stadium vs a RHP?

  135. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 5:42 pm

    kasey, ha nice one

  136. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    The word here in Boston is that Santana is going to demand a 6 year, $150 million deal. Yup, that’s $25 million per till he’s 35 years old. That’s from WEEI. Again, for me, there is no way I include Hughes. I’d overpay with other prospects if possible, but no Hughes. Let Boston trade for Santana, sign him for $150 million, while we transition in 2008. Then with experience under our young guns’ belt, concentrate on 2008. That’s my 2 cents.

  137. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    PTI is about to do their odds on Santana to the Red Sox. This ought to be good. ESPN is soooooo Red Sox biased… IMO

  138. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    maybe just try asking the rebecca. worst case, they say no.

  139. Real World November 29th, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    Also, some internet chatter is saying that Santana only wants to go to NY, and won’t do an extension with Boston. Again, only chatter.

  140. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    Yeah it is only chatter, but Ive heard that out of him multiple times, from multiple sides.

  141. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    Motown: I was abroad last spring and abandoned by my travel companion in Florence on Spring Break and spent three days by my own in a country where I don’t speak the language or know anyone, so the on-my-own travel isn’t an issue.

    The issue as I see it is that it costs a crapload of money, and I’ve already asked for my hanukah present (in the form of Amazon gift certificate) and this just came up…(other issues would normally be the foreign city and whatnot, but I remember London well enough, still have an oystercard I can put money on for the Tube, and I have a place to stay, with a friend I’ve stayed with before).

  142. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    rebecca, short of asking them, do something to raise some money and contribute financially to the equation so your folks aren’t shouldering the entire burden.

  143. Matt November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    I was just thinking…Boston must be completely out of the runnings for Santana…Because that offer clearly would never get it done, almost everyone realizes that…So now that rumor is spread, imagine if Boston gave up Ellsbury and more…Boston would be furious!…They must really be stead fast in keeping Ellsbury and Buchholtz to the point where the Twins just said to heck with them…

    I love speculation…

  144. Loserbob November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    Without looking at numbers, you can seriously tell me Lester doesnt have better stuff than Kennedy? That fact that Lester is a LHP is a big factor as well.

    I don’t see why some people are so fascinated with Melky. .327OBP/.391SLG. He’s got a great arm, but his range is not adequate for CF. Crisp in his last 2 years at Cleveland put together very fine numbers for a CF. Crisp will also solve the leadoff problem for Twinkies, something Melky can’t to do.

  145. YankeeFan November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    on the bright side, trading hughes probably means we give up less bodies.
    hughes/cabrera + 1
    instead of
    kenedy/cabrera/ + 2
    i’m sure the deal will be fine.

    how fast things change. hughes was the #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball before this past season. now he’s #4 or #5 or… i still want him on my team with santana.

  146. raymagnetic November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    I’d be more than surprised if Cash & Co. allowed Johan to go to Boston over not including Philip Hughes. I believe Minny is trying to up the ante to more than just Hughes/Melky/prospects. They probably want Hughes/Melky/Kennedy and if I’m the Yankees I’m holding firm.

    I can’t see how the Twins would take Lester/Crisp over Hughes/Melky.

    Lester walks a ton of guys I mean a ton. Walking a ton of guys when you play half of your games on a fast artificial turf that allows for cheap singles is a recipe for disaster.

    The REAL Philip Hughes is a much better pitcher than Lester is. If you’re walking a TON of guys in the minors who will swing at anything then in the majors you are nothing more than a 5 inning pitcher. – End of Rant

  147. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    I know this was a topic last night, and earlier today, but what about Jim Edmonds for one year in CF until the kids that are left (Jakcson or Tabata, if not traded for JS) after Melky is traded?

    Damon’s arm just scares me… And ‘deki in left? Sheeshh…

  148. joe November 29th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    Is the Deleon guy we have the same one that was a International Free Agent that every one wanted?

  149. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    I don’t remeber playing Boston in the playoffs this year. Did I miss a series?

  150. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    Joe,

    We have Kelvin DeLeon and we signed him on July 2nd of this past year.

  151. Sherri November 29th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    I would hate to see Santana go to the Red Sox. I also would also hate to see Hughes leave. I’m so torn.

  152. EY November 29th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Save Phil Hughes.

    Trading him will come back to bite us somewhere down the road. I can see him shutting Yankees down for 7 solid innings in a playoff series 5~6 years into the future for some team (doesn’t have to be Twins)

  153. Matt November 29th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Lester just does not fit the Twins history…We have never used pitchers with control problems…Santana, Brad Radke, Carlos Silva look at their walk numbers, those three are some of the lowest ALL-TIME…Prolly one of the pitchers on our team last year with the worst control is Garza…Look where that lead him…If Lester has the problems you say, then this makes no sense…Unless the Twins think they found something in his wind up that is holding him back (which twins all way talk about) but that’s a whole nother can of worms…

  154. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Btw everyone orgasms about what a great prospect Fuchholz is:

    IPK 3G 19.0 1.89 ERA 1-0
    Fuchholz 4G 22.7 1.59 3-1

    Buchholz has an edge on IPK, but certainly not by much, whether you are talking experience or performance.

  155. mel November 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    Rebecca,

    Seriously, from a parent’s point of view, they’re going to look at it from a cost-benefit analysis. $621 to spend a few days with a friend does not benefit anyone in their eyes. Aren’t they saving for your wedding? Aren’t they recovering from your sister’s wedding?

    Maybe you if you drop the hint, then say never mind it’s too much, then maybe they’ll sponsor a couple of trips to the Stadium. Last season and all.

  156. Butch Wynegar November 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    bobcat-
    Have the Twins initiated Nathan trade talks with the NL Central teams yet?

    and on a side question:

    what is the sickest craziest blockbuster trade proposal that got some prelim work on your end of the industry that never happened and never made it public?

  157. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    You know, I wouldn’t be able to resist a laugh if we keep tallking and thinking about Santana and then out of nowhere we land someone we’re not expecting…

    …like that whole thing where we got David Justice, only better-er.

  158. Ranting Guy November 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    Well if ya ABSOLUTELY GOTTA trade for Santana and don’t want to give up Phil Hughes, then don’t.

    Maybe the Sox might be posturing for us to up the ante to Hughes (from IPK) by throwing Lester’s name into the mix. Maybe the Sox just don’t want to face a rotation with Hughes Santana Joba & Wang over the next 6-8 years. Even with Beckett Rice-K & Lester locked in for a while, they might need to grow a Santana clone to counter that.

    If IPK is the pitcher the Yanks would rather offer up (instead of Hughes) then they should keep him in the package while making a better extension offer to Santana so he doesn’t waive his NTC for a Boston trade.

    If the Yanks could possibly offer Santana enough of an extension to keep all 3 kids (admittedly at expense of other personell) then I’d like to see what other parts it’d take.

    If Pettitte comes back, there could still become a mid-season need for a good arm. And still, both Pettitte & Moose would be off the map in 2 years at most so giving up good young (and cheap) pitching is a risk. More pitching is always better.

  159. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    The Red Sox deal would be two 2008 starters — Jon Lester, Justin Masterson — as well as a starting middle infielder (Lowrie) and Coco Crisp.

    give Peter Gammons credit he can sure overhype Red Sox talent

  160. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    seriously, hughes fans, i’ll say this again, and it echoes what a couple of other folks have already said:

    think about it this way: the BEST case scenario for hughes would be that he ends up being as good as santana ALREADY IS. i mean, that’s it. it’s that simple. hughes may also turn out to be a mediocre pitcher with injury problems. point is, at 21, you CAN NOT KNOW. with santana, you’ve got a sure thing.

  161. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    What I meant was that the Yankees told Arod is he opted out they wouldnt chase him

    They didnt.

    The Yankees shouldnt bend over and be absolutely raped by other teams. Arod opted out. We didnt chase him. Yes we are paying him the biggest contract ever…he’s arguably the best player in the game. Debate the contract all you want but Arod has never and will never be bigger than the Yankees. This is related to Santana because the Yankees have the X factor of being able to be a part of the Yankees. Johan and his NTC should see that. If he doesnt want to come here then fine. We have Hughes (who said today he wants to stay) and other great young arms. We cant sell our soul to this back and forth trade game. Make an offer and stick with it

  162. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Wilbon just gave Santana a 0% to the Sox while Kornheiser went with 80%.

    Wilbon said he will go to the NYY. Stat Boy sided with Wilbon, for what its worth.

    Wilbon’s take was that teh Sox are just trying to drive up the price for Johan on the Yankees, while Kornheiser thinks the Sox really want him, for them and to keep him from the Yankees.

    About the same old arguement we’ve heard everywhere else all day!!!

    Where is the Bobcat when you need some good intel?!?!??!

  163. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Kasey,

    No the best case scenario would be that he turns out as good as Santana WAS.

  164. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    Its only a matter of time until Gammons rears his ugly face and says the deal to the Sox is all but complete…

  165. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    Ranting Guy said: “Rice-K.”

    good thing johan would never play somewhere with a fanbase of racist morons, right? come on, man.

  166. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    The WORST thing anyone can do is to call something a ‘sure thing’.

    There are no sure things.

    (except that the Cubs will not win the World Series.)

  167. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    Phil no offense. Johan is 28. He’s got another 4 years of top shelf pitching. And by top shelf I mean a

  168. mel November 29th, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    I can almost picture who on this blog is a parent and who isn’t. I feel like the Yankees raised Hughes from infancy (in baseball years) and Joba’s the adopted child and IPK is the foster kid. How can you push your own child out the door? The Humanity!!

  169. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    “What I meant was that the Yankees told Arod is he opted out they wouldnt chase him.”

    actually, what they said was if he opted out, they wouldn’t negotiate with him. “that ship has sailed,” i believe was the phrase.

    then they backpedaled.

    then they gave him a contract where he makes 30 million more for individual goals.

    at best, it’s contradictory of your claim that the yankees are not about one player.

  170. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    Hmm that cut off for some reason.. the post would finish:

    … under 3.2 ERA with 20 wins.

  171. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    Shamus, Peter is the mouthpiece to these Red Sox deals I believe any minute now like you aid old Q-tip will whiten the ESPN breaking news screen w/ the Red Sox are close to finalizing BS…

  172. rbizzler November 29th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    Gammons, the Red Sox shill, is really funny. Too bad everything I have heard about Masterson is that his injury history leads him to be profiled as more of a reliever. Way to be an independent journalist, Peter!

  173. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    be back later peoples, remember, it’s all a ploy tonight until it’s final. :)

  174. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    “The WORST thing anyone can do is to call something a ’sure thing’.
    There are no sure things.”

    and yet they should hang on to hughes because of his POTENTIAL, rather than pick up the best pitcher in the game over the last five seasons.

  175. B November 29th, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    You guys do realize that Phil Hughes is a better prospect than Joba Chamberlain, right?

  176. Mike R. November 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Most scouts have changed their minds on that one B.

  177. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    mel:

    I will give you the creative writing award for the evening!

  178. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Agreed…Santana is nowhere near the downside of his career.

    Hughes can only hope to be where Santana is now.

  179. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Yes, B, we do realize that. But before there was a Joba, there was a Hughes. And Joba doesn’t make Hughes less of a pitcher, it just means he’s even better. Just because Diana Ross came along, doesn’t mean that the other Supremes couldn’t sing, she was just better.

  180. Ed November 29th, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Loserbob, if you have an equally talented LHP and RHP, the LHP is worth more. A slightly less talented LHP might be worth more.

    But Kennedy tore up the minors and pitched well in a few starts in the majors. Lester pitched ok in the minors and has about a season’s worth of average at best results in the majors.

    Based off track record Kennedy, is significantly better than Lester. In terms of injury risk, Kennedy is a much safer bet. Lester throws better, but right now he’s just a starting version of Brian Bruney.

    As for Crisp and Melky, yeah, Crisp is a little better, no argument. If money’s not an issue, you take Crisp every time. But Crisp makes 10x the money Melky does. The only reason Santana would be traded is because the Twins can’t afford to keep him, so yes, money does factor in. If you’re the Twins, you have to seriously consider taking Melky and using the money you’d save towards deals for guys like Morneau or Mauer.

  181. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Oops, B, I had a dyslexic moment there, I thought you said Joba is better than Hughes. Who knows? Years may close the gap. One or the other may tail off or fail. Good problem to have, though.

  182. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Santana will be 29 next time he pitches, and wasn’t throwing his slider much down the stretch (where he got battered). I think coming to YS will extend him, but I’d rather have Hughes become the Santana of 5 years ago than become the Santana of now going forward.

  183. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    Rebecca,

    Do I get a gold star? And did you find my link for the football game on the other thread?

    kasey,

    Dude, your world is way to black and white.

  184. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    *too*

  185. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    Mel: Yes and yes, but I haven’t gotten sopcast to work on my comp–I’m on a Mac.

  186. Fleas November 29th, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    So I have spent the last week reading here, and not posting much.

    One thing that I would like to interject is that I cannot believe that some of you guys actually use ‘payroll’ as your base point for your arguments. Money is not a fans concern, the Yankees make pleeeennntttttyyyyy of money! You don’t need to worry about how much a player costs them, their luxury tax etc.. it all comes back. The Yankees are a profitable corporation and will continue to be… leave the money to the money-men!

    Second,
    All of you that keep saying don’t trade him, him, and him, for Santana it’s not worth it.
    Seriously folks, some of you are ridiculous.

    Obtaining JOHAN SANTANA IS A ONCE IN A LIFE TIME OPPORTUNITY!! He is not 38 Big Unit was, he is 28 .. *BLEEP* BLEEP* Are you kidding me that you have compared him to this?? WAKE UP!

    It’s not based on potential or possible arms being great.. its a fact. Don’t worry about the length of the contract.. don’t worry about the money, or who goes.. this deal has to happen.. and I am not even talking about Santana going to Boston. That’s a whole ‘nother can of worms.

    The Yankee’s brass will put on their absolute best poker-face.. in the end, they will do whatever it takes to make this happen. Mark my words.

    So stop counting chickens, and be thankful that we just may land the chicken-hawk!

  187. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    “kasey,
    Dude, your world is way to black and white.”

    um, it’s a baseball trade.

  188. Wolf In Pinstripes November 29th, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    “in terms of condescending people, i apologize. but some of the stuff posted here is absolutely ludicrous. and people certainly feel obligated to let me know when they think i’m full of it.”

    ahoef, let me help you out here a little bit. I’m quoting kasey above this for a reason. I started visiting this blog around this time last year, and I think kasey was the first person I butted heads with. I realized later that I really respected the bulk of what he has to say and told him so here on the blog.

    The thing is, within a month or so I totally got where kasey was coming from. kasey is probably a little more blunt and honest than I allow myself to be, and he takes his lumps like a man for it. I see posts everyday that make me want to verbally bitchslap people, but I realize that they aren’t worth my time. I’m not saying what Kasey does is wrong – we’re just different in our style. Matter of fact, I can think of one other poster here off the top of my head that every time I read one of their posts, I want to go hit someone. Literally. In the meantime, I’ve learned to skip over them. LOL Anyway, the reason I quoted him was because it shows that he is a stand-up dude.

    kasey is a very realistic guy, and I agree with what he says 9 times out of 10. The times that I don’t I can certainly deal with because no two people are going to agree all the time. I honestly look forward to his input here. Oh, and he’s an excellent musician to boot.

    But I will kick his a** if he doesn’t comw visit my site some day. ;)

  189. jk November 29th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    In today’s Baseball Prospectus, Kevin Goldstein rates Hughes over Joba.

    http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=6957

    I’m confused as to how Philip Hughes went from the best pitching prospect in the game, to a guy who almost threw a no-hitter, to a guy people wanted to start throwing under the bus as he tried to re-find his groove after a pair of severe injuries. Don’t believe the anti-hype–he’s still a stud

  190. jay destro November 29th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    i like baseball, i just wanted to share that with everyone.

  191. Ed November 29th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    Mike R.,

    The latest Baseball Prospectus rankings still put Hughes above Joba. I haven’t really seen Joba above Hughes in any rankings, just in hype caused by Joba’s excellent relief work.

  192. UtilityMan November 29th, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    I like the sound of this

    1.Santanna
    2.Chamberlain
    3.Pettitte
    4.Wang
    5.Mussina(only because he is signed)
    6.Hughes or Kennedy(depending on who gets traded)

  193. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    Phil – there is zero guarantee Hughes will become any version of Santana. However there is an extremely strong possibility that Santana will continue to pitch well. Prime years for a pitcher are 30-34 because they have the experience to know how to pitch and not just throw during those years while still having the physical skills at a high level.

  194. Ranting Guy November 29th, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    I misplaced my crystal ball so I’m speculating that Hughes from age 25-30 should be at least equal to Santana from age 25-30.

    Yes, he’s only 21. He could have his breakout year in ’08, ’09 … heck it could be later. His best 5-year stretch could be from 23-28 or from 26-31. Sure, he could get injured and fade away too. I don’t know … nobody KNOWS.

    Nobody really knew when how good Santana would becom when Santana as 21. How good was he at that age? On par with Hughes? Joba?

    Is Santana a sure thing? Nope. He’s very likely but he COULD get injured too. Last I heard, he’s human. Nobody KNOWS. We’re all guessing, just like we’re trying to guess what deal’s going to happen.

    Except maybe SJ44 who sounds like he works somewhere in the Yanks organization :)

  195. jay destro November 29th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    who doesn’t like the sound of this, it’s a matter of it happening.

    UtilityMan
    November 29th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
    I like the sound of this
    1.Santanna
    2.Chamberlain
    3.Pettitte
    4.Wang
    5.Mussina(only because he is signed)
    6.Hughes or Kennedy(depending on who gets traded)

  196. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Rebecca -

    I had the same reaction as Motown. Why do you assume they’ll say no?

    But, on a more practical level, having a 20-year-old daughter myself (ugh!), sometimes you just do have to “listen” to the parental units, because if they’re anything like me, they will ALWAYS have something to say about your life. Anyway, can it be a Hannukah/Birthday/graduation/”I got into grad school” gift?

    And if it were me, I’d just listen to the lecture, or whatever, as long as in the end, I still got to go to London! :)

  197. KG86 November 29th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    All I have to say is, I trust Cashman to do the right thing.

  198. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Rebecca,

    Oooo, didn’t see that little benefit on the Mac/PC commercials.

    There’s a windows media player link but you don’t have that either, right?

    There’s a TVU link or espnradio.

    Here’s the link to one affiliate that’ll have it: http://www.sportsradio1420.com/

    Good luck.

  199. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Geez Phil, you have to do better than that.

    In 33 starts last year, Santana allowed 4 runs or more FOUR times.

    Now, tell me, how does that show he is on the downside of anything?

    If he pitched for the Yankees this year, they win the Wrold Series.

    Really, you can’t argue that Phil Hughes is going to be a better pitcher than Johan Santana in 5 years.

    NOBODY can make that claim.

    Its one thing to want the guy not to be traded. I get that.

    But, to even put Hughes in the same sentence as Santana right now is folly.

    Put it to you another way. If the Twins could afford Santana, they would NEVER trade him for Phil Hughes.

    Nothing against Hughes. However, the chances he has a career even remotely as good as Santana is slim.

    If he does, it means he would be on his way to a Hall of Fame career.

    Nobody can make that projection about him at this time.

  200. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    kasey,

    LOL. I’m not talking baseball trades, I’m talking about how you express yourself and communicate with others. Black and white. Your way or no way. :)

  201. UtilityMan November 29th, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Wise Arse

  202. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Rebecca – no harm in asking. Any chance you can pay your parents back? I’m a parent too (grade school kids), but I’m always spending way too much on my kids. Parents have a soft spot for the kids, as I am sure you’ve figured out. I hope you can go.

    Getting back to the news at hand–I just don’t understand what all the smokescreen is all about with Santana going to the Sox. Would Cashman actually buy that stuff? He seems like a guy I would never want to play poker with. Sometimes I think it’s just to sell papers and get us to watch ESPN…

  203. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 6:21 pm

    Pete: another reason we need registration…I’m tired of the second Phil. (I’m the one who believes Santana is preferable to Hughes.)

  204. Fleas November 29th, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    mel,

    Some people cannot be objective, they are deliberate people, couple that with an inability to articulate.. the end result is either a train wreck or tunnel vision.

    In either case.. (nothing towards Kasey) People need to be nicer as a whole here. I too have been called names and flamed..

    Let play nice people.. also remember, I am always right!

  205. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Motown,

    I’m sure that Cashman was expecting the Boston involvement. He probably would’ve been disappointed if his worthy adversary didn’t get involved. Who was looking at Gagne first, New York or Boston?

  206. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Doreen: Hah!

    The more I think about it, the more I’d feel, personally, guilty. Most kids I know haven’t gotten to spend four months in London. Most kids I know don’t waste money on a sword collection.

    So yeah. If I had made the money on my own, I’d do it, but I’ feel too bad asking.

  207. Master Wangkee November 29th, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    When I hear Phil Hughes name mentioned in a sentence, I’d rather hear the other name be ‘Scott Kazmir’ instead of Johan Santana. Kazmir’s only 2 years from free agency, just one more than Santana and the D-Rays, like the Twins, don’t have the cash.

  208. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    At age 20 Hughes nearly pitched a no-no. At age 21 he put up a sub 3 era in September and was the only Yankee to win a playoff game. I’m not putting him in the Hall of Fame, but sometimes kids who start out doing stuff like that, after destroying double A at a precocious age, turn out to be pretty good.

  209. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    And I was the original Phil here.

  210. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    Phil,

    Are you a parent?

  211. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 6:29 pm

    PHIL (all caps and bold, not #27 in 2007)

    SEE: Wood, Kerry

  212. ET2012 November 29th, 2007 at 6:29 pm

    If the Buster Olney report is right, and Santana winds up in Boston for Lester and Coco and a couple of unknowns, either the Minnesota GM has been hipnotized, or Theo is practicing vodoo-magic on the guy!!!

  213. Ryan November 29th, 2007 at 6:30 pm

    If they dont get Santana, or the price is too high, switch gears and go hard after Haren. See if you can get him with pieces not including any of the big 3, or at most Kennedy.

  214. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    ET2012,

    Maybe they’re throwing the red herring so that when it comes out that the Twins are actually getting Melky instead of Coco and Kennedy instead of Lester they’ll embrace it. lol.

  215. bsmith November 29th, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    I don’t see how Minnesota deals Santana without getting at least 2 starting pitchers in return. They just lost Garza and they are also going to lose Silva to free agency. If they also lose Santana, they have to get at least 2 starters plus others in return.

  216. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    Ryan,

    I think Haren would be pretty close in expense as far as prospects go as would Santana, just b/c of his uber-$-friendly contract over the next three seasons.

    Haren is owed (courtesy of Cots):

    08:$4M, 09:$5.5M, 10:$6.75M club option ($0.25M buyout) (option becomes guaranteed if Haren reaches specific IP mark)

  217. Hector the Projector November 29th, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Cashman is like a cat in the bushes. Look for him to walk away happy after Nashville.

  218. Syracuse Dave November 29th, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Eh, if Melky is a better hitter, it’s by a fraction. Melky had an OPS of .718 last year compared to Crisp’s .712. Crisp is probably the better offensive weapon as he’s better at aspects of small ball such as bunting and stealing. Melky was 13-5 on the base paths last year compared to Crisp who was 28-6. And I don’t think there’s any argument who the better defensive player is. If I’m the Twins I wouldn’t give any preference to Melky over Crisp.

    And of course Hughes and Cabrera trump Lester and Crisp. I’m sure the Red Sox want the Yankees to get desperate and give him up. I think Buchholz and Crisp easily top Hughes and Cabrera though. Buchholz has outperformed Hughes at every level of professional baseball.

  219. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Rebecca -

    Again, I’m going to agree with Motown. You have to at least ask your folks.

    SJ44 –

    I’m laughing out loud here! Now, once again, how many times did Santana give up four or more runs in 2007? :) (Just bustin’ chops!)

    I like Mel’s analogy of the 3 “children” – Hughes nurtured through infancy; Joba adopted prodigy; IPK the brilliant foster child. It’s kind of what I was saying yesterday, that IPK seems more expendable because no one here has a relationship with him right now. We’ve been getting ourselves ready for the coming of Hughes for a couple of seasons now. Joba just exploded on the scene. Then Kennedy shows up and he’s good, too, but he doesn’t have the fanfare.

    I will be fine no matter how this all shakes out – meaning, if the Yankees get Santana, I’m ready for either Kennedy or Hughes to be gone. That’s baseball. And it will still be nice to see that the one that was traded develops into what the Yankees thought he might, even if it isn’t for the Yankees. Santana will make an immediate known impact. If they don’t get Santana, it will exciting rooting for the kids. The only thing I’m not sure how I’ll react to is if the Red Sox end up with Santana, just because they’re the Red Sox.

  220. Ryan November 29th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    But if you can keep Hughes, you have to go for Haren. The luxury tax saving alone is worth it.

  221. rodg12 November 29th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Very good point mel. Very good.

  222. ET2012 November 29th, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Mel,

    I hear you, but it looks more like a red-whale.

  223. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    for the “this trade is too easy for the red sox” contingent:

    think about what the rangers ASKED for from the yankees for gagne.

    think about what they AGREED to from the red sox for gagne.

    you’ve only got to go back a few months to find a trade that was “too easy” for boston that ended up happening.

  224. Jonathan C. November 29th, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Every report you guys are reading/seeing is coming from that Minnesota newspaper blog we all read this morning. Didn’t buy it then, don’t buy it now.

  225. mel November 29th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Totally off topic, but they’re going to make a movie about “Game of Shadows”. Criminal, not because we have to endure more of Barry Bonds, but that the authors of the book are profiting even further from leaked grand jury testimony. And in the ultimate move of selling out, Mark Fainaru-Wada has recently joined ESPN. New unfavorite ESPN correspondent. lol.

  226. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Funny little tidbit: Whenever I hear about Santana and “wanting to be in a place with a large hispanic community blah blah”

    I always picture Santana living in Washington Heights.

  227. Logical Fan November 29th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Eh, if Melky is a better hitter, it’s by a fraction. Melky had an OPS of .718 last year compared to Crisp’s .712. Crisp is probably the better offensive weapon as he’s better at aspects of small ball such as bunting and stealing. Melky was 13-5 on the base paths last year compared to Crisp who was 28-6. And I don’t think there’s any argument who the better defensive player is. If I’m the Twins I wouldn’t give any preference to Melky over Crisp.

    And of course Hughes and Cabrera trump Lester and Crisp. I’m sure the Red Sox want the Yankees to get desperate and give him up. I think Buchholz and Crisp easily top Hughes and Cabrera though. Buchholz has outperformed Hughes at every level of professional baseball.

  228. Mo November 29th, 2007 at 6:39 pm

    Rebecca, the windows media player link will work with VLC on the mac. If you dont have that program, google it, it is small and easy to find.

  229. G. Love November 29th, 2007 at 6:39 pm

    I would not want Kazmir over Johan. That’s just nuts. Everyone in baseball thinks Kazmir is one pitch away from a major shoulder injury, not to mention he walks a lot of guys.

    Johan is the best in baseball. Put him in Yankee stadium and watch him pitch to an ERA under 3.00 with all the room in LF.

    Who was the last Yankee starter to have an ERA under 3?

    This is a huge move and the Yankees have to make it. If they don’t, the drop off from Johan to the next guy is huge and all of the next guys come with injury risks (Peavey, Sheets, CC) or they come with higher price tags (Haren).

    I don’t think for a second that the Red Sox are just fooling around and don’t intend to sign Johan if Minny accepts their trade proposal.

    What’s Theo going to say, “Oh sorry, we were just kidding?”

    They want him too. They are trying to make the deal without hurting their major league roster.

    We can’t make this deal without hurting our major league roster.

    If the Red Sox get that proposal through, they fleeced the Twins. It’s either that or the Yankees didn’t come to play.

    I don’t believe for a second that Phil Hughes is going to be the deal breaker.

    If he is, that kid will have more pressure on his shoulders than he can imagine. The rest of his career will be judged against what happens in Boston with Johan.

    The Yankees have to make this deal.

    I saw someone post that the Red Sox got Pedro in 99 and they didn’t stop us from winning WS titles.

    Maybe, but they didn’t team Pedro with Clemens. Johan and Beckett are Pedro and Clemens.

    Good luck beating that in the post season with a closer like Pap Smear.

    That’s how we won all our titles.

  230. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    Kerry Wood was destroyed through the abuse of the Cubs and Dusty Baker. The Yanks are too smart to do that to their young pitchers and have been really forward thinking in the prehab program they’ve developed for the young arms.

  231. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    Kennedy and Cabrera also trump Lester and Crisp and Crisp’s salary.

  232. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    Rebecca,

    Very true! lol

    Phil,

    Nobody is saying Hughes may not turn out to be a good pitcher.

    But, a near no hitter and 5 innings of a playoff game really doesn’t tell us anything.

    Wilson Alvarez pitched a no hitter at 21 years old. How did his career turn out?

    With young pitchers, you just don’t know.

    Look at it from the Yankees perspective.

    They just laid out almost 100 million dollars on Rivera and Posada. Two guys nearing the end of their careers. Their championship window is closing.

    If they get Santana, they have a real shot at another ring.

    If they don’t, and he goes to Boston, that window closes bigtime.

    Sure, you can “root” for injuries and stuff like that but, what if Santana doesn’t get injured?

    What if he is healthy for the next 5 years.

    Honestly, if both Santana and Hughes are healthy for the next 5 years, who ends up with the better numbers? The chances of it being Hughes is slim and that’s not a knock to Hughes. Its a testament to the greatness of Santana.

    Bagging on Santana’s last month of the season is the same as people ripping on Arod’s “bad” 2006.

    If you talk to baseball people they will tell you Arod is the best player in the game. They felt that way even in 2006.

    That’s how baseball people feel about Johan Santana.

    If you are the Yankees, you can’t let the guy end up in Boston.

    Bluffing, posturing? Certainly possible.

    However, at some point, this will come down to the “fish or cut bait” moment.

    At that time, the Yankees have to make the decision….in or out with Santana.

    If they make the wrong call, it sets back the franchise for years.

    JMO but, I don’t think they will let Phil Hughes be the guy that keeps them from getting Santana. If that happens, all I can is, they better be right because they will start next season at least 8 games behind Boston if he ends up in Beantown.

  233. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    black and white, maybe. when it comes to hughes vs. santana, it’s pretty idiotic to suggest that hughes has more value at this point. i’m sorry that’s blunt, but it’s just a stupid suggestion.

  234. Artie A November 29th, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    Message to Brian and Hank: Stay calm…don’t give up the ship. One young arm (Hughes or Kennedy), Melky, and a top prospect on the farm…that’s it. My guess is that the Angels will be in play once the Yankees hold firm and hey have plenty if not more to throw in than Boston.

  235. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    i feel like i’ve been on a treadmill for 3 days waiting to get off when this deal is done…i’m losing steam…

    i think i’d be an awful gm. i have zero patience at this point.

  236. NYYFANS.COM IS A GAY PORN SITE November 29th, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    Kasey,

    Just a side note. Im listening to Buddy Bolden Blue’s right now. Sounds great. This song has a hint of Bruce a little Jeff Tweedy mixed in. Sounds great.

  237. Dave November 29th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    Lester is as unproven as Hughes or Kennedy in the majors. Crips is awful and the redsox would want to get rid of crisp as a salary dump as much as they want to add value to the trade. The sox want to be rid of that 20 million and start ellsbury in center. They dont want a 20 million dollar player sitting on the bench. The twins should see no value in crips and he is far too over-priced for his horrible and inconsistent production on the sox. Lester is about as proven as kennedy and in terms of ceiling in value id have to say he is far less valuabnle than hughes and comparable to kennedy. The minor league stats show kennedy was far better than lester in triple A and better in double A than lester by a significant margin as well. whip in double A 1.12 (Lester in 148 innings) in 0.9 (kennedy in 48 inngs.) Whip in triple A 1.46 (Lester in 46)1.04 (kennedy in 34.) Whip in the majors 1.65 (lester in 80 innings) to 1.16 (kennedy in 20 innings.) Due to the fact that melky makes 9.5 million less than Crisp and has produced 275 avg 340 obp over the last two yrs to crisp 265 320 the only area where crisp wins out is speed and not by much – melky 12 and 13 to crisp 22 and 28. Power ( doubles and homeruns) they are exactly even. Melky is a far cry better defensively. Therefore, melky has a definitive edge over crisp beating him in avg, obp, defense and tied in power while lower in speed over the last two yrs making a total of 19 million less over the next two yrs. I think kennedy and lester are both unproven in the majors while kennedy’s minor league stats are far, far better than lesters as well as their major league stats – surprisingly so to some. I think the deal the sox made is a farce as they have six starting pitchers – two potential aces and a quality third starter and i believe they are trying to raise the price for the yanks to make them include hughes. However, since they offered less than a package of kennedy and melky, the yanks still dont need to offer hughes to beat out that package and i hope they realize this. Additionally, the yanks inclusion of horne, tabata or jackson destroys any of the boston minor league prospects. Plus, the sox would have to add 25 million to a rotation that is already paying truckloads to beckett, dice-k and schilling.

    As to the pen, mahay and hawkins both pitched in the NL last yr and put up mediocre numbers at about 1.25 whip. In the AL in 2006 Hawkins was god awful and the last time he was quality in the AL was 2003 on the twins. The last three yrs in the AL, Mahay was atrocious putting on disgusting numbers for texas. The last time Mahay was a quality pitched in the AL was also in 2003 with the rangers. Mahay also walks about a guy every 2 innings and 4.5 per nine so he would fit right in with the yankee bullpen. Id prefer Hawkins if i had to chose one but neither would improve the pen and either acquisition may actually prove to be more detrimental. If cash isnt going to add a qualit reliever to shore up the pen, he might as well save some money and not add any one at all. With percival seemingly off the market ( how the hell can the rays snag a reliever that the yankees actually wanted) I think the only decent bet would be signing David Riske. He put up decent numbers last yr with the royals, had mediocre totals the yr before with both sox teams and had a superb 2005 with cleveland. I wanted him when the sox signed him in 2006 and i still want him now. He is in his early 30s still and has the ability to close games but is primarily a asetup man. Besides a horrible 2004, he has had five straight seasons with a whip below 1.3 and an era below 4 sometimes below 3(2 of the 5 seasons.) He also doesnt walk too many excluding 2004 and has the ability to strike people out when he needs one. Percival may have been the better option as they are both somewhat risky but riske is 7 yrs younger and percival took a yr off in 2006 and cant really pitch more than 40 or 50 innings a season any more. Riske is really the only option left that could actually help us in the eighth inning – the rest of the guys are high risk low reward guys or complete messes.

  238. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    What if the Twins disagree Kennedy/Cabrera trumps Lester/Crisp?

    What if they say, “Hughes or no deal”.

    It doesn’t matter what we think which deal is better. Its what the Twins think.

  239. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    My last psot ddnt come up.

    a) Yes, Johan is better than Hughes, but its not like were sending JUST HUGHES to Minnesota.

    b) Why is Buchholz all of a sudden on top of Hughes. Buchholz has an ERA advatage of 0.3 on IPK with 3 more MLB innings pitched. He barely has the edge on IPK. How the hell does he have the edge on Phil Franchise.

  240. Steve November 29th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    Sorry, used that Username last night when all the NYYFANS were here

  241. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    SJ44: Wrong.

    It’s how Johan Santana feels about where he wants to go, and what the Twins think secondary).

  242. UtilityMan November 29th, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    Everyone knows that the Redsux want to get rid of Crisp.
    So if the Twinkie do trade with them,they had better get Ellsbury back in the deal!

  243. dont_ya_know24 November 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    logical fan, be a little more logical…
    crisp will get about 11 million the next two years. cabrera gets about 300k.

    melky is also better offensively, but he doesn’t have the range crisp does. he has a monster of an arm though.

    they both have good speed, but crisp is faster.

    melky is the better option.

  244. Jaewon November 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Phil Hughes for Johan Santana straight up = No deal.

  245. Maverick November 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Why do people keep saying Santana will block a trade to Boston? That is the most illogical statement I have read on here. If they pay him what he wants he is not going to reject a trade just b/c NY fans “think” he wants to play in New York. Whatever team he goes to is going to be the odds on favorite to win it all next year and if he goes to Boston over New York it even may increase those odds. He will have no problem being in that rotation and having that lineup. I think it is ignorant to say he won’t have his no trade clause to go to Boston.

  246. Jaewon November 29th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    The Yankees shouldn’t give up Hughes for anything.

  247. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Right guys, I’m off to go do a bunch of novel writing…did a ton last night would love to do something similar tonight.

    Will pop in occasionally.

  248. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Diana Ross came along, doesn’t mean that the other Supremes couldn’t sing

    Are we saying that Joba is Diana Ross or that phil needs some RESPECT…

    Best stat is that yohan 4 games of more than 4 runs.. Amazing

  249. Jake November 29th, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    Do you all realize that if the Red Sox get Santana, it will be the third straight bonafied “Ace” that they have undercut us for in the past 5 years?

    The Yankees were first rumored to be after Schilling. Here we are 2 championships later. The Yankees were first rumored to be going after Josh Beckett. Here we are 1 championship later.

    If they get Santana, that could be the equivolent of getting shot in the face with some foreign substance.

  250. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    SJ44

    Hughes was already the #1 pitching prospect in baseball when he was throwing that no-no at age 20. He wasn the #1 pitching prospect in baseball because he had put up an historically rare season in double A at a young age.

    Now sure, it’s a crap shoot, but this kid did everything you’d want to see a minor leaguer do and he did it young. And he’s cheap for 6 more years. If you have the leverage of being able to pay and able to top that lame Red Sox offer without including Hughes, you do it. And if the Twins hem and haw, you eithe start taking pieces out or you start calling about other pitcher.

    From all we hear, Santana wants to be a Yankee and has an NTC a la Abreu, and the Sox never give out the kind of deals (under Henry and Co) that Santana will require. I don’t think the Twins can extort Hughes out of the Yanks in this situation. And the Yanks will have done a bad job if they let them.

  251. Jake November 29th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    Maverick,

    You are absolutly right.

    That is a retarded theory.

  252. Stefan Weaver November 29th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    “What if they say, “Hughes or no deal”.”

    Then the Yankees push away from the table, apologize for declining the offer, and wish Minnesota luck in their other negotiations.

  253. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    steve/nyyfans – thanks. the buddy bolden tune is one i’m pretty proud of.

    sj44 – exactly. all the pontificating about the value of kennedy vs. lester is moot. if minnesota prefers the lester/crisp package, that’s that.

    ahoef – if the twins prefer the red sox package, they give boston 72hrs to negotiate with santana. if the red sox offer him the money he wants, he’s playing in boston next year. period. at the end of the day, maybe he’d prefer new york, but if he can get the money from boston, he’ll take it. the lights are equally as bright at fenway.

  254. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    ” Sox never give out the kind of deals (under Henry and Co) that Santana will require.”

    you may want to check in with jd drew on that one.

  255. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    JD Drew is also a pretty good argument as to why NOT to do that again lol.

  256. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    Off topic but, what is Joba’s third pitch?

  257. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Curveball

  258. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    ahoef – i bet any sox fan will tell you that A) it’s not their money and B) his grand slam was worth every penny.

    and johan santana is hardly jd drew.

    el comaduce – joba’s got fastball, slider and change. the change needs work but he can throw it for strikes.

  259. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    Honestly, I know all this arguing is gonna go nowhere.

    But lets say we give them (this has been advocated elsewhere):

    IPK, Melky, Betemit and Horne.

    That would give them a SP, a future SP, a starting OF and a starting 3B (yes he IS good enough to start at 3B in Minnesota) for chump change. They need those positions.

    Bahston just cant really match that kinda of thing.

  260. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    curveball, we saw a couple at the end of the regular season, when batters began guessing fastball/slider

    he apparently has a changeup that was being developed

  261. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    phil – right, curve. but that also needs work.

  262. Ranting Guy November 29th, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    I’m not predicting Hughes WILL be as good as Santana’s 3-year stretch from ’04-’06 (ah, skip last year … but his ERA will probably be under 3 again) of course nobody an predict a HOF career for a 21-yr old.

    And I agree one can’t say that a green Hughes is equal to Santana in his prime. No comparison if you look at it that way. But 2 years from now, I don’t think the difference will be that great.

    All I’m saying is Phil looks more likely have sub-3 ERA at age 25 than Santana did. (and so does Joba) At age 20/21 Phil’s shown glimpses of being better than Santana looked at 20/21. By the end of his age 22 season, Santana was 3-3 over his first 2 years with an ERA above 5. Age 23 he went 8-6 with a 2.99. A couple years later he was Cy Young. Let’s see how Hughes does in ’09.

    If Hughes (yes all anyone can say is ‘IF’ at this point) goes 15-7 with an ERA around 3 when he’s 23, maybe some bloggers would want to DFA him for the 7 losses. But that’d be pretty good. Wang didn’t look like someone who could post 19-7 seasons with about a 3.7 ERA when he was 21 did he? How does Hughes rate in comparison to a 21-yr old Wang?

    It may sound like it to some hyper-critical types, but I’n not knocking on either guy. Would I like to see Joba Wang Hughes and Santana in the same rotation? You bet I would. More so if Pettitte or IPK were kept in the mix but I realize that would probably never happen.

    It’s hard to tell with someone so young. Doc Gooden was a ‘sure thing’ for HOF when he was 20. So was Kerry Wood. But Hughes did look pretty convincing when he was ‘on’ this year. I doubt the hammy was an indication of a Pavano-like future. It may take him a couple years like it did with Santana.

    But who am I to say … during Pavano’s first stint on the DL his first season in NY, I was saying “Don’t worry, he’ll be fine when he comes back”.

    I’m also saying that about Matsui but I think we have a little more faith in him than in Pavano. But I digress.

    IMO Joba and Hughes should both stay. IPK? I haven’t seen enough of him to guess either way. But if serving him up puts Hughes Joba and Santana in the same rotation with Wang for the next 6 years, then maybe thats the most promising way to go.

    OK now that I said that, watch the reason Santana was appearing cautious about his slider turn out to be some budding catastrophic arm problem.

  263. Phil - 27 in '08 November 29th, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    kasey – in relief he went with his fastball and slider. He broke out his third pitch, a curveball, just a half dozen times. He never threw the change-up at the major league level.

  264. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    minnesota’s going to put cuddyer at 3B next year. they’ve got no use for bettemit.

  265. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    Abreu “the real El Comaduce” better call his fellow countryman and get him here… Lets rework his contract so that if gets Johan to veto a boston trade we extend his contract 2 years…

  266. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    phil – you’re right. i typed change instead of curve and then posted without editing. good call.

  267. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    anyone here have johan’s cell number?

    i want to get to the bottom of this thing once and for all.

    thanks

  268. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:05 pm

    too bad we cant surgically remove edwars change and put it in Jobas arsenal… Could you imagine a devastating changeup with that slider and fastball…

    chills….

    Hopefully nardi can work on that change

  269. AHoef November 29th, 2007 at 7:05 pm

    http://nyyinsider.com/wp-conte.....nsider.jpg

  270. Logical Fan November 29th, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    AHoef, ERA can be rather flukish. If you want to try to judge a pitcher’s ability, look at their peripherals.

    Buchholz – 5.56 H/9, 3.97 BB/9, 8.74 K/9
    Kennedy – 6.16 H/9, 4.26 BB/9, 7.11 K/9

    And Buccholz’s worst start (still a QS) came in his first major league start against the Angels. Kennedy didn’t pitch against any team even close to the caliber of the Angels. He pitched against a hurt Toronto, Kansas City and Tampa Bay.

    If you think Buchholz is only moderately better than Kennedy, then I’m guessing you didn’t follow the prospects too much in the minors and you’re basing your entire argument on three major league starts by Kennedy against bad teams.

  271. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    his number is going to be 150-000-000

  272. nathan November 29th, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    anyone here have johan’s cell number?

    i want to get to the bottom of this thing once and for all.

    thanks

    284-967-8438

  273. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    El Comaduce – Nice. It is busy right now.

    I think he’s on the line buying a condo in midtown.

  274. Winfield killed my seagull November 29th, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    keep phil. period

  275. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    Aheof,

    True, to a certain extent. I guess the next question is, what if the Twins say to Santana (just using examples here, no panic), “Our best deal is with Boston”. Its either the Red Sox or you stay with us in 2008.

    Does Santana push for NY? Does he leave over 100 million dollars on the table now and play it out in ’08? Or, does he say ok and do a deal with Boston, even though its not where he wants to go?

    I don’t have the answers to the questions. I just think the Yankees have gone too far down the road at this point to turn back now.

    Phil,

    Phil Hughes is not the #1 prospect in baseball anymore. Lists change as teams/scouts see more and more of a player.

    Buchholz and Chamberlain have passed him in just about everybody’s eyes in the game.

    Again, that’s not a knock to Hughes. Its more about how well Buchholz and Chamberlain have pitched.

    Think about it. Joba Chamberlain is untouchable in any deal. Phil Hughes is not.

    The Yankees value Chamberlain more than Hughes at this point. Wrong evaluation? I don’t think so but, time will tell.

  276. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    he is on the phone with Jeter talking about the girls at Duvet

  277. Ranting Guy November 29th, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    Good one Nate C!

  278. LathamJoe November 29th, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    Santana will not turn down a chance to go to Boston – if they meet his 6 yr/$150 Mil salary demands. Why would he?
    Even if he’s pitching in a whiffle ball stadium, he would have already secured his future by signing a lucrative 6-year contract, yes?

    I’ve been a Yankee Fan since the Late 50s. If they fail to land Santana – I’ll still be a Yankee Fan, disapointed maybe, but still a Yankee Fan.

    Hughes is a “projected ace” – Santana IS an established ace in the Prime of his career. You have to do that deal.

    I would however (if I was Cashman) balk at any deal that included BOTH Hughes and IPK along with Cabrera. The only way I can see that happening is Boston including both Lester and Ellsbury in their package.

  279. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:12 pm

    Phil, I remember the first curve he threw in the majors. I was at a bar out here on the west coast. Yanks game had the big screen and audio. Sox fans didn’t mind, because they were waiting for Joba to give up a few runs and end the hype.

    The curve, got a “whoa” reaction from within the bar, followed up with the YES announcers asking where that came from. It was the that night I found a jpg to turn into a 3 foot Joba poster. Still is up in the poker room.

    Joba’s career has me excited. So does our new “over slot” drafting philosophy.

    Hughes proved something to me this postseason. Sox are smart for causing us to surrender his potential. But, alas, there’s no question you have to do it.

  280. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    over slot rules!!!!

  281. Ranting Guy November 29th, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    If Johan was in NY would he be able to offer useful tips to Joba & Phil to develop nasty change ups? I hope we find out.

  282. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    Am I the youngest one here again?

  283. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    SJ 44

    That’s because he had a hammy and an ankle. He sure looked like #1 in September and the post season, though he still didn’t have his stuff back. And if you are saying he is downgraded, then the Yanks would really be stupid to sell low on him after investing all these years in his development. So looking at it my way or your way, it doesn’t make sense to trade him.

  284. nathan November 29th, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    everyone here seems to think we should keep phil hughes insteed of kennedy. i know phil is the better “prospect” but i think i would rather keep kennedy because he looks like he can go deeper into games and has pin point control. I say hughes, jackson, and two “high celling” type of guys from low a ball

  285. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    If Johan was in NY would he be able to offer useful tips to Joba & Phil to develop nasty change ups

    or we can just take edwars away and give it to joba… Cant be that hard, they can clone sheep for goodness sake

  286. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    If you are a major league player, don’t you have to leak out:

    1) That you want to play in NY
    2) That you do not want to play in Boston

    To me, both of these tactics seem like it would get the biggest contracts from each team… regardless of how you felt.

  287. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:18 pm

    El Comaduce – I don’t know what that place is, but it sounds like a place A rod likes to visit.

  288. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Where is Bobcat? I need an update. Are the Yankees considering adding any guys?

  289. vrsce November 29th, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Rebecca,
    Only if u r 16. In which case u shld not b here

  290. LathamJoe November 29th, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    Rebecca:

    Were you old enough to see Mickey Mantle hit a 565′ Homerun off of Chuck Stobbs?

    How about Roger Maris hitting his 61st off Tracy Stallard?

    Or Chris Chambliss’ AL Pennant Winning Homerun off Mark Littel?

    If you don’t remember seeing any of these, then I guess your the youngster on here tonight!

    If

  291. Barry November 29th, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    Phil,

    I wouldn’t call trading Hughes for the best pitcher in baseball as “selling low.”

    If Hughes is the only thing standing between us and SAntana, you have to make that deal.

  292. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    No to all of the above, I’m with you Rebecca

  293. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    BTW, today I started working on bringing one of the 80′s Yankees that I grew up with on board as a client.

    Very exciting.

  294. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    They would be trading him for the best pitcher in baseball, Phil. Not exactly selling “low”.

    Joba already has a good changeup. He learned it from Dan McCutcheon, who has the second best changeup (next to Edwar) in the organization.

    Threw it quite a bit in his last 6 starts in the minors and it was nasty.

    He didn’t break out the curve (except for a couple of occasions) and the changeup when he was in the ‘pen because it wasn’t practical.

    As a starter, he will have his full arsenal of pitches. The pitches that had him dominate at every level of the minor leagues last year.

  295. mel November 29th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Phil,

    Give it up, you’ll never win. Some people here think that Phil will have Pavano-itis. They think he’ll be chronically injured. Save your breath, or in this case, your fingers.

  296. mel November 29th, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    Mike in SF,

    Financial advisor?

  297. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    I remember the Chambliss homer.

  298. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:27 pm

    Nathan, i am attached to Hughes because he has been talked about for years… I am a speed ho when it comes to pitchers as well

  299. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    I was born in 1981 (a.k.a. the beginning of the Dark Ages), so I haven’t seen that stuff either.

  300. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    SJ44 – joba throws hard late too, correct… Before he came up i was following him on waswatching and the blogger was amazed that he was throwing so hard late in games

  301. Brian (Red Sox Fan) November 29th, 2007 at 7:30 pm

    SJ 44 …… We obviously disagree on Hank Steinbrenner’s public persona, and his impact on the Yankees’ baseball decisions/talent evaluations. But I notice that you are parroting the main thrust of my earlier post (which you excoriated), to wit: the Yankees cannot afford to allow the Sox to pair Santana with Beckett for at least the next three years. I said a few hours ago that the Yankees’ decision-makers (whoever they are) are backed into a corner because of that fact. They MUST bundle whatever prospects are needed to close the deal.

    The Sox aren’t bluffing, meddling, or raising the ante. They have given up Hanley Ramirez, they have paid a $51 million posting fee. They will pay a fair price for difference-makers. They realize that getting Santana is a kill shot, and they are going for it. I expect the Yankees to counter (there will be no Carlos Beltran frugality – not on Hank’s watch), but the price (in prospects) will almost certainly be very high.

    P.S. I’d be stunned if the Twins would take Lester over Bucholtz ….. I agree with the many Yankee posters who see Lester as someone with good stuff, lousy command, and an undetermined “upside” because of his inability to pitch ahead in the count.

  302. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 7:31 pm

    Rebecca – I’m sure you are the youngest IHHS graduate.

  303. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:31 pm

    Yup, I get fed warm leads. This guy popped up. I doubted it, but when emailing him back and forth, his signature included his website to confirm.

    Can I close? Maybe. But still cool.

  304. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    Joba’s third pitch is a plus curve. He has three plus pitches (slider and fastball are actually plus plus), and a developing changeup. He has shown a feel for throwing it, and I believe he will have no problem throwing once he uses it throughout the first few months of the season.

    You know, Hughes’ changeup was quite good prior to his injury, but I noticed that he got away from using it when he returned. I remember one particular at bat in the Texas game where he threw Teixiera three straight changeups, one nastier than the other, and made the guy look foolish. Just anecdotal evidence, but I’ve generally heard raves about his changeup. That’s why I was so surprised not to see him throwing it throughout August.

    Did you guys know that some scouts rate Edwar’s changeup a perfect 80 on the scouting scale (20 – 80)? That is really remarkable.

  305. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    Nathan,

    My husband also thinks Kennedy is the one to keep. He thinks he’s the “sleeper” – that he may end up being way better than Hughes. Also, he likes him because he’s not a power pitcher like Joba and most others, so he offers a different look in the rotation. Me? I just want to fast forward a couple of months (years?) to see how it all turns out! (Not a very patient person, I guess.)

    The one thing in all this talk that I’m not “trusting” is where Santana prefers to be. He may prefer NY, but doesn’t everyone say that ballplayers will simply follow the money? So, as long as Boston gives him the extension he wants at the amount of money he’s looking for and for the number of years, why would he balk at that?

    I do have a question though, with regard to Santana and either Boston or New York, and I’m not really sure how to phrase it. I guess the bottom line information I would like to know is, does Santana get to hear the proposal (extension proposal) from both teams? Let’s say Minnesota gets an offer from NY and an offer from Boston, and tells Santana, they like one offer over the other and plan to accept it if he will waive his NTC. Since he does have the NTC, can he ask to hear what both teams have to offer him?

  306. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    Brian,

    When have the Sox under their current ownership given up a 130+M multi-year deal to anyone?

  307. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    a perfect 80… I think that matches his bodyweight

  308. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    I’m 21.

    To frame this:

    I do not even remember the strike.

    I remember Jefferey Maier in 1996 because we watched that game at dinner.

    I remember after game two of the WS, the next morning, asking my father if the Yankees won. His response? “Of course not.” To which I responded, “What do you mean of course not? Isn’t it the first to four games?”

    The Yankees promptly won the next four.

    I remember Derek Jeter, not as a rookie, but as the dude my group of my fifth grade class picked to run in a mock presidential election (we lost. I think the other group had Leo DiCaprio).

    I remember coming home from summer camp in 1998 and asking my brother if the Yankees had a chance to be in the World Series. His response? “There’s no way they won’t win it.” “That good?” “Yeah.”

    I remember finding out about Coney’s perfect game in 1999 from an email my dad sent me while I was at camp. It took me two read-throughs to understand why my dad sent the email.

    I never heard Phil Rizzuto call a game. I don’t remember any manager aside from Joe Torre. I only remember Rivera as the closer, and have a few memories of Girardi as catcher.

    First ever game I went to? El Duque pitched. And lost.

  309. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    Motown: I don’t deny that. Still think it’s crazy that I meet a Hills-er here, of all places!

  310. Peter Abraham November 29th, 2007 at 7:38 pm

    Hey guys:

    I’m headed out to a bar too see Packers-Boys, so no more updates tonight. I can tell you this: I spoke to somebody I know well who works with Peter Greenberg and there are no negotiatons going on with any team regarding a new contract for Johan.

    So no deal is set with anybody.

    So stop obsessing over this. It’ll get done or not. Either way the Yankees are contenders. I’d go to war with the three kids, Wang and Andy. Of course Andy needs to come back for that to happen.

    Catch you all later.

  311. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    mike in sf.

    i’m in your business. in sf.

  312. mel November 29th, 2007 at 7:41 pm

    Rebecca,

    21? Sigh… I had lived a full adult life by the time I turned 21. Enjoy your youth.

  313. sunny615 November 29th, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    I can’t even remember what 21 felt like.

  314. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    Berra,

    I remember that at bat as well. I couldn’t be happier with it. A cardinal sin is 3 changeups in a row. The only way you throw it is if you and your catcher have the moxie to gamble that the hitter thinks “no chance in hell he throws it again.” If he doesn’t think that, he crushes it (think E-rod getting lit when he can’t locate fb). You can’t shake off catcher, because then the batter will more likely think about it.

    What do you think feels better-

    Out-witting a major league hitter (ala Maddux)?

    or Blowing fastballs by them when they know their coming (Zumaya)?

  315. mel November 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    sunny,

    Did you party that hard?

  316. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    http://video.google.com/videop.....;plindex=4

    pretty cool… you can hear jobas fastball screaming in… litteraly

  317. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    3/4 of Chamberlain’s 100 MPH pitches in the minors came from the 6th inning on. That’s sicke!

    Brian,

    There is so much depth in the Yankees system now that they would have to give up 6-8 prospects in order for it to impact their system in a negative way.

    For example, and we are just talking here, if its Hughes, Melky, Tabata and Horne, the Yankees have replacements for every one of those players from within.

    If they have to add Alberto Gonzalez so the Twins have a SS, no worries. They have Reegie Corona and Carmen Angelini developing nicely.

    Their RH pitching depth is crazy right now. Kennedy, McCutcheon, Veras, Ohlendorf, Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Betances, McAllister, Garcia, Pope (not Justin, the kid they drafted last year, who is VERY impressive)and Andrew Brackman, a kid with as high a ceiling as anybody in the organization.

    That’s 12 guys with legitimate potential to be quality major league pitchers. I don’t know of another team in the game who can say that right now.

    I’m not even counting Joba, who isn’t going anywhere.

    The point is, the Yankees can go as deep as they have to in order to do the deal. Mainly, because they have to.

    With Santana, they are as good or better than the Red Sox. Not just this year but, for the foreseeable future.

    Especially, since they have over 80 million coming off the books after the 2008 season.

    Another draft and 80 million coming off the books makes the Yankees VERY dangerous. Which is why I believe they will do what it takes to make the deal and it won’t negatively impact their future. It will enhance it.

  318. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    Nate, good on you. I go to all the OAK, SF games when the Yanks are in town. Looks like we only have 1 series in OAK again. Whats up with that?

    Aces is the only Yanks bar I know out here, yet I’m pretty new to town. Are there any others?

  319. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    who’s the youngest person here then? i turned 19 two weeks ago but i’m sure it’s not me.

  320. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    Mike in SF,

    I am in SF as well. One of my colleagues is a big Yankees fan who has been out here longer than I have, and he knows all the Yankees’ bars. I’ll try to find out some others.

  321. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 7:50 pm

    LC: It might be you.

  322. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 7:50 pm

    Just turned 20 in November.

  323. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 7:51 pm

    SJ44

    While I agree with you about the depth of the system, none of those guys has shown himself to be HughesII yet. Hughes is special among special. I’m gonna keep hoping Cash can use his patience to keep Hughes out of it. I have reason to believe he will.

  324. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    Ace’s is the only one I know of. There are an enormous amount of red sox bars here which makes me sick.

    the only reason i felt safe at the oakland yankees game last year was because i was there with my friend who is a cop.

    Any yankee fans thinking of moving to SF – we could use you.

  325. Peter Rabbit November 29th, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    Rebecca, I’m just 2 years older than you and my memories of the Yankees go back to having Mike Stanley as catcher. I remember always battling with the Tigers to avoid being in the cellar of the AL East. I would be please with a 3rd place finish!a

    I’m glad I experienced those dismal times, because the dynasty really did feel like a dream, instead of the “norm”.

    Aye Mike Gallego! He was so tiny!

  326. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

    Berra, outstanding.

    In any given bar out here, there are 9 Sox fans to every Yanks fan. I don’t even mind it anymore, because the Yankees fans I bump into seem to be pretty rogue. If you could fill me in on a good scene out here for the upcoming season, I’d be happy to buy you a pint or two.

    BTW, what an awesome city SF is. Only thing I miss are the Yanks, family, pizza.

  327. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    I’m 24 if that makes anyone feel better.

  328. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    Mike is SF: “BTW, what an awesome city SF is. Only thing I miss are the Yanks, family, pizza.”

    nice list! i’m with you on all 3!

  329. Mike NYY- Welcome home Alex November 29th, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    Any chance this turns into a three team trade?

    Thew Yankees send Damon to some other team (Chicago?) for a prospect or two and then package them in a deal for Santana.

  330. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 7:58 pm

    I don’t remember Jeffrey Maier because I had a newborn. 1996 was all a haze…but I do fondly remember the Bucky Dent homerun. In 1978 I started a scrapbook of newspaper articles about the Yankees from the NY Times and the Bergen Record. I like these internet days much better.

  331. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

    Nate and Mike,

    Agreed — there are no good pizzeria pizza joints here in SF like they have in the city (just good, but different “gourmet” pizzas). with you on the yanks and family as well. luckily, because SF is pretty awesome, my family has visited quite a bit.

  332. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

    I hear you Nate. I don’t mind Shanghai Kelly’s or Bus Stop, there are good baseball fans that root for the Sox.

    Whats better about the OAK-NYY games?-

    That the fans chant “Yankees Suck” when the A’s are threatening to score

    or

    that Sox fans turn up just to tell you how much the Yanks suck?

    I like how much they boo Giambi, yet his contract would have been a disaster had he stayed.

  333. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

    Motown: I’ve got all 1999 and 2000 WS -related Records!

  334. Jim in CT November 29th, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Whether the Red Sox offer for Johan is real or just stories being fed to influence the negotiations, I have no idea.

    But the deal that Olney reported is if nothing else a great story because for the Twins it fits really well with the Garza/Delmon Young trade yesterday. That trade still left a hole in CF, and they traded their starting SS for Brendan Harris who’s a poor glove there. Not how Minny usually thinks. So Lester backfills for Garza, Crisp (good speed/glove/noodle arm) fits in CF between Young (LF) and Cuddyer (RF) (guns) which produces a nice speedy OF, very useful in AL Central. Jed Lowrie is the Sox’ best IF prospect but is backed up behind $30M worth of Julio Lugo (and they’re still paying out for Renteria).
    It’s either a well crafted proposal, or a well-crafted story designed to drive the price up for Cashman. I think the latter.
    Note: sorry if this duplicates something above, 320 posts is a needle in a haystack.

  335. nate c. November 29th, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    my favorite gourmet pizza (you are right that it is the only good kind) is paulines in the mission. pizza org. is pretty good too.

    lils is my favorite pub for sports. lyon/presido

  336. Florida Yank November 29th, 2007 at 8:05 pm

    It comes down to the old adage, nothing for nothing in this world. If the deal works and Santana is a Yankee there should be no looking back with reservations, no questioning of what it took to get the deal done. Win. lose, or draw it will be up to the hierarchy to explain the whys and why nots.
    Any and all polls show that the Yankee fanbase overwhelmingly do not want Joba or Cano as part of any proposal and all fan proposals involve all or part of Melky, IPK, Hughes and ranging to Horne, Tabata, Jackson, and Gardner.
    Yankee fans need to realize that from the Steinbrenners on down, the level best is being done to ensure that ringing out the old and ringing in the new with the Stadiums will be special years.

  337. SavePhilHughes November 29th, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    Don’t trade Phil to the Twins. That’s all I ask.

  338. whoa November 29th, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    # Phil – 27 in ’08 November 29th, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    “DO NOT TRADE HUGHES UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!”

    That seems a bit too extreme…under any circumstances? A proven stud ace vs. a guy with potential to maybe, possibly, potentially grow into a stud ace? Not to mention a LHP at the stadium vs a RHP?

    A proven ace that would have to be given an approximately $150 million contract over six years over, who may have nascent arm problems given his second half decline v. a pitcher that would be paid the ML minimum and who has already demonstrated that he has no hitter type stuff and can pitch effectively in the postseason.

    Plus Hughes is a lifelong Yankees, not a rotisserie team import.

    I’m not concerned about handedness.

  339. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Phil,

    Chamberlain has shown more than Hughes. He was/is the more dominant pitcher. Geez, the guy had an ERA under 1 in the majors and nobody hit him! That’s crazy. Prior to his injury, Humberto Sanchez was considered by many baseball people to be Hughes’ equal as a prospect. If healthy, he is a Top 5 pitching prospect in the game. His status prior to his injury.

    That’s two right there. Most organizations don’t have one Hughes-like prospect. The Yankees really have 4, because Kennedy (who is a helluva lot better than a lot of folks give him credit for) and Andrew Brackman (especially Brackman) have the same kind of ceiling.

    If the above guys stay healthy, always a question mark with young pitchers, they are going to win a lot of games in their respective careers.

    You also have to consider that if they acquire Santana, there are only so many slots to go around. With Wang, Chamberlain and Santana occupying spots in the rotation for the foreseeable future, they don’t need much more to fill out the rotation.

  340. Giuseppe Franco November 29th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    Too bad Rebecca isn’t a little older (I’m a few months away from 34) and lived closer to me (I live in Chicago) because I’d probably be hitting on her quite a bit.

    I’ve never even dated a sports fan – let alone a big Yankees fan.

    My last girlfriend loved Jeter and A-Rod but couldn’t tell you what position they played on the diamond if you gave her a million guesses.

    Good for you, Rebecca.

  341. Stefan Weaver November 29th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    [quote]In any given bar out here, there are 9 Sox fans to every Yanks fan.[/quote]

    Well, yeah, it’s a bar. Check the local homeless shelters and the ratio will be 100 to 1.

  342. Thrillington November 29th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    Reading all the news about the Sox offer, I am betting Santana ends up in Beantown. It makes the most sense. They’ll get a better package from Boston because of the pitching depth in the minors (more balanced system) and unless Cashman will part with Hughes or Chamberlain (perhaps both if the Boston deal is for real and/or gets sweetened any) it seems like this is a deal to pass on.

    If the Yanks had more depth, I think they’d go for it. This is exactly the type of trade they’d have made after a championship season, and Boston is being smart and looking to upgrade even after winning it all.

    In the long term, it’s in the Yanks’ interest to let this one go. I’d hate to see them give up Hughes for Santana, and now I think it will take even more with the Boston deal being reported to be what it is.

  343. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    Ha, I was at Lyon Saturday night. Good crowd, laid back neighborhood.

    I’m more of a fan of ZA on Hyde over Paulines. Why does Orgasmica charge so damn much? Golden Boy sells decent late night sicilian if your bar hopping in North Beach. Nevertheless, first thing I do when I fly into JFK for Xmas is jump on a train and grab a slice.

  344. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    SJ 44

    We don’t have to trade either of them, but Joba’s ERA is as a reliever not a starter.

    btw, I think Betances, Heredia and Arodys Vizcaino have super high ceilings they are all far away.

    There’s no reason to give up Hughes in this deal so far. None.

  345. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    What is this “slump” that everybody talks about with Santana?

    If giving up 4 or more runs in 4 of his 33 starts is a “slump”, sign me up.

    Sorry Rebecca, had to do it again! lol

    He had a bad month. His bad month is still better than most pitchers.

    The money? The Yankees have plenty of money. They don’t have an ace. Santana is an under-30 ace AND lefthanded.

    Oh, “slump” and all, he is still the best pitcher in the game.

    Its a no brainer deal for the Yankees. They just have to determine how much to give up.

    The “if” they should get him is out the window. Its at the “how much” stage right now.

  346. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:15 pm

    Giuseppe: I’m afraid there would be a few issues, aside from the age.

    Namely, I am TERRIFIED of Thunderstorms and tornadoes and will thus never be anywhere for a considerable amount of time in the midwest.

    Seriously, that might have been the only reason I didn’t apply to Northwestern.

    Aside from, y’know, my SATs flat out sucking…

  347. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    How do you know there is no reason to give up Hughes in the deal? Obviously, that’s not true.

    If it was, they would have made the deal already.

    Why do you think the Twins are leaking info today? Because they want more from the Yankees.

    The Yankees have more pitching depth in their organization than the Red Sox. Its not even close.

    But, if a team wants a certain guy, you are going to have to give him up to do the deal.

    Phil, Joba’s ERA as a starter in the minors was better than Hughes. He is the more dominant pitcher. He was in the minors and he is in the majors.

  348. willi November 29th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Since when did the sux have more depth then the Yankees?

  349. whoa November 29th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Phil,

    Chamberlain has shown more than Hughes. He was/is the more dominant pitcher. Geez, the guy had an ERA under 1 in the majors and nobody hit him! That’s crazy. Prior to his injury, Humberto Sanchez was considered by many baseball people to be Hughes’ equal as a prospect. If healthy, he is a Top 5 pitching prospect in the game. His status prior to his injury.

    As a reliever, maybe, but not as a starter. What Joba does as a ML starter is still an open question.

    Hughes was recovering from a hamstring and an ankle injury this season, which had a deleterious impact on his arm strength. Before the injury, he almost pitched a no hitter. After he regained his arm strength, or at least some of it, he pitched great v. the Indians in the ALDS.

    I like Sanchez a lot, but he was never the #1 rated prospect in baseball. He never had Hughes sick command, not even close. Also, Hughes accomplished what he did at 20 years old; Sanchez is several years older. Age is a critical factor in assessing prospects. So to argue that they are equivalent is to make a spurious claim.

  350. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    SJ,

    You have to admit that he did have that one bad month in his entire career.

  351. Agent47 November 29th, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    What’s IHHS?

  352. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    Also: Of the guys I’ve been in any sort of serious relationship with, only the guy I’m currently with (which is way, way long distance) is familiar enough with the Yankees to be able to name three players on the starting line up.

    SJ: What are you apologizing for? I am confused–if it’s the optimism, I love it!

  353. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    Rebecca – that’s awesome

    Agent47 – Indian Hills High School, where Rebecca and I went to high school (in different decades)

  354. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    Agent47: Where Motown and I went to high school.

    But a few years apart.

  355. whoa November 29th, 2007 at 8:19 pm

    Why do you think the Twins are leaking info today? Because they want more from the Yankees.

    Obviously, but the Yankees have to hold firm.

  356. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    SJ44′s post at 7:46 about sums it up.

    If they have to trump an offer from the Sox, Mariners or Dodgers by offering Hughes, IPK/Horne, and Melky, they’re gonna do it. If they have to throw in another pitching prospect or position prospect, they’ll do it.

    They can’t afford to let him land in Boston. And, Hank has shown, like his father, he’ll do what it takes to get a deal done when its a guy he likes (see Rod-,A; Rivera, Mo; Po; Hip Hip), as long as Chamberlain and Cano don’t have to go.

    They have the bats, they need an ace.

    When Cabrera goes, they know they can plug in Gardner or Jackson in time, and until then, they can use Damon (who despite scaring me with his arm, IMO I think will come into camp in great shape, wanting to impress his new manager) and/or maybe grab a one-year defensive stopgap.

    Or plug in a farm boy.

    And by losing (potentially, say the price is steeper than we can fathom) Hughes, Kennedy/Horne and McCutcheon, for example, on top of Melky) they can replace them, possibly, in time with Ohlendorf, Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Betances, McAllister or Brackman. Or, who knows what Cashman will dig uo at the draft.

    Remember, even the most ardent NYY fans at this time last year really had no idea who Joba Chamberlain or Ian Kennedy were…

  357. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    Sheesh, Motown, give yourself some more credit than that! IT was just a few years apart!

  358. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    Joba’s ERA at Trenton was 3.35

    Phil’s was 2.25 and he was younger in AA than Joba was.

  359. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

    Pre-surgery, Sanchez was in the top 5 with Hughes. That’s why Yanks fans applauded the deal (on top of removing a ‘bad personality’).

    I have a hunch that Sanchez is in this deal to require the Relief pitching help Bobcat referred to. Remember, losing Nathan also would be a hole Minny needs to fill.

  360. Brian (Red Sox Fan) November 29th, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    Phil ….. the total cost for Dice-K is about $105 million for six years (I believe that’s close to right). So they are willing to go for years and dollars.

    SJ …. I’m sure that the Yankees have a lot of depth in their farm system (although that “deep depth” tends to evaporate as prospects become “never-was’s”), and can absorb a hit for Santana. But, I repeat, we are saying the same thing re: the Yankees’ desperate need to (1) keep Santana from the Sox by (2) getting him themselves. It is 6/6/44 for the Yankees …. if they are thrown back into the ocean on this advance, the baseball balance of power tips precipitously towards Boston.

    The Yankees haven’t paid $45 million to a 38 year old reliever (or $53 million to a 36 year old catcher)to allow their arch-enemy to pluck a healthy, 29 year old, two-time Cy Young winner, regardless of price ….. unless they TOTALLY screw up. I doubt that they will …..

    Going to watch Packers-Cowboys now ….. fortunately,
    NFL TV comes to RI.

  361. Shamus November 29th, 2007 at 8:23 pm

    I thought Sanchez wouldn’t be ready until midseason?

  362. Giuseppe Franco November 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    Rebecca:

    Tornados happen in this area but they are rare – especially near the city where they are non-existent.

    I’ve never been in a tornado in my almost 34 years in this area. Thunderstorms are a different story.

    I’m a graduate from Purdue University and my SATs weren’t good enough for Northwestern either. That school is essentially the Harvard/Yale/Princeton of the Midwest.

  363. SJ44 November 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    Whoa,

    I was at the Futures Game in ’06. I talked to scouts there. They RAVED about Sanchez every bit as much as Hughes after that game.

    The guy was throwing 98 with a bad elbow.

    There are still people in the game who can’t believe Cashman got him for Sheffield.

    Rebecca,

    Apologizing for bringin’ out the Santana stat again! lol

    Mike,

    There isn’t a player in the game who hasn’t had a bad month. Show me one who hasn’t, and I’ll show you a guy who hasn’t played at a high level.

    The guy is entitle to a bad month. He may have more in his career.

    Doesn’t mean you do get him.

    He is a bigtime prospect. A fact, whether you want to believe it or not.

  364. Wolf In Pinstripes November 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    “the guy I’m currently with (which is way, way long distance)”

    Like maybe long distance as in, say …. oh, I don’t know …. LONDON??? ;) :D

  365. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    Rebecca – you are too kind. And I say hold out for the Yankee fan guy–I married one after getting rid of an Indians fan (what a disaster that would have been on so many levels). Taking the kids to Yankees games is now a great family event for us–but that’s way in your future.

  366. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    Brian.

    you think they’ll do that coming of a championship? I don’t. They were desperate when they went for Dice-K.

  367. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    SJ,

    I was only being sarcastic. The fact that there are complaints about his one bad month reveals the magnitude of his greatness.

  368. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 8:30 pm

    Was Pete druming during Jorge’s interview?

  369. sunny615 November 29th, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    mel
    November 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
    sunny,
    Did you party that hard?

    Actually, yes. You know you’re in trouble when you bring liquor to class in those insulated sport drink bottles.

  370. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    Giuseppe: Good to know!

    If you want the ultimate irony: when I applied to Syracuse, I applied to Newhouse, which is the journalism school here. the guy that interviewed me was a Yankees fan and I know that because he interviewed me the day of Game 6 of the 2003 ALCS and we were attempting to do it fast so we could both get home before the game started.

    Despite editing the school paper (and having done so for two years), I was not accepted into Newhouse. Being a wealthy Jewish kid from North Jersey, I am THE prototypical ‘Cuse/Newhouse student. So of course I didn’t get into Newhouse.

    I got into Arts + Sciences instead, with the expectation I’d transfer into Newhouse.

    The end of fall semester Freshman year I realise that I want to major in either English or history. I flip a coin and end up a history major.

    Senior year of college, what am I doing?

    Blogging about the Yankees. Journalism for the new millenium.

    Of my three closest friends at Syracuse, two are Newhouse students. One is a die-hard Sox fan.

    This is the irony of my life. Almost as funny as the guy I know that’s a medieval history geek like me and a teacher and newspaper dude, and just happened to have worked with Pete Abe in Norwich…

    Motown: The guy I’m with now IS a Yankee fan…just has the slight problem of living in Brisbane. Yes, THAT Brisbane. No, don’t ask.

  371. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    Motown, you’re giving me second thoughts here. My girlfriend could care less about baseball, yet like most people, hates the Yankees. I swear she’s using me for my body :)

  372. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    Hi, gang. Santana’s “off” year just accentuates how great that he is. Most pitchers in the league would give anything to have the kind of year that he had. If he has a year like that as a Yankee, chances are he won’t finish 15-13. He would probably be much closer to 20 victories.

    Meanwhile, the Pack is ahead 3-0, but Dallas is driving.

  373. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Shamus: I disagree. I think there are scenarios in which the Yanks will say “thanks, but no thanks,” no matter the result. I think both Hughes and IPK in a deal might be that moment, no matter how stacked with pitchers who are close to MLB level we may be, no matter how many times we can claim that it doesn’t mean “abort ship.”

    Of course, I could be wrong… :)

  374. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Guiseppe, I know NW is top-notch, but isn’t U of Chicago just a touch above?

    Could just be the grad school?

  375. Retire21 November 29th, 2007 at 8:37 pm

    If overrated Chien-Ming Wang can get 19 wins Santana can get 22.Remember last year the Boston Red Sox were only two games ahead of us.There good but Santana would put us over them.

  376. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Rebecca,

    I studied abroad in Brisbane (chose it over Florence). Do what ever it takes to spend 2 weeks down there. If it means putting 2 g’s on a credit card, well, I know what I would do.

  377. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Mike in SF – I’m not sure about long-term with the Yankee hater. My sister and I have agreed that it would be worse to be married to a Red Sox fan than to be married to a member of the other political party. How serious is it with the Yankee hater? Can she be converted?

  378. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    SJ44 –

    That was me bustin’ your chops about the 4 over 4 in 33! :)

    Rebecca — Come clean now – is this way, way long distance guy in LONDON????????

    SJ – back to you – you just wrote something that kind of smacked me in the head – “You also have to consider that if they acquire Santana, there are only so many slots to go around. With Wang, Chamberlain and Santana occupying spots in the rotation for the foreseeable future, they don’t need much more to fill out the rotation.” That’s pretty cool, actually.

    And even though Hughes is no longer considered the #1 prospect, not even by the Yankees, he is still something pretty special, since the Twins are pushing for him to be in the deal.

    Not every pitcher is a #1 pitcher, but if you can put together a rotation with a solid #1 and four #2/#3 guys (which is what I believe the Yankees were able to do in the late 90′s), it’s not too shabby. But if they lose out on Santana and Andy retires, Wang’s a not-as-solid #1/#2 followed by a couple of #2/#3, and then your usual #4/#5 guys. Not nearly as intimidating a staff. BUT, you just never know till they actually start playing the games exactly how it’s all gonna turn out. Again, can we please, please, please, fast forward a few months?????

  379. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    Is anyone watching the game on line? I am very confused as to how it works. Please help!!

  380. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    She’s the best one yet. Can she be converted? I give her incentives to root for the Yanks to win (ie a nice dinner afterwords).

    She hates the Yankees, but admitted to rooting for Joba and Shelley Duncan. She loved how Melky and Cano always tease A-Rod. But, she knows it bothers me for her to bash the Yanks so she doesn’t. Man, she can play that card whenever she wants. Imagine having that kind of power?

  381. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    SJ44 –

    It was me bustin’ your chops about the 4 over 4 in 33! :)

    Rebecca — that long distance guy wouldn’t live in London, would he?????????????

    Off-topic, but since Gray’s Anatomy is going to be starting soon, it reminded me to tell anyone here who has a daughter to take them to see “Enchanted.” It’s terrific. Even the Wall Street Journal gave it a great review (and they hate everything). Patrick Dempsey is in it, and of course, he’s cute, but the movie is a real send-up of the Disney princess movies, and it is produced by Disney, and I laughed out loud quite a few times.

  382. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Mike: Oh, I want to go. But dude. I LOVED Florence. Except for the abandonement part.

    http://www.freewebs.com/fireroseboudicca/r3f1.htm

    (pictures)

    Doreen: Nope.

    I’ve got friends in the UK…one lives in London. Her birthday’s the 22nd Dec and she wants to go to a concert for a band we both like on 20th Dec. So I told her if she could spot the air fare, I’d go. I was only half joking.

  383. Doreen November 29th, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Sorry for the double post. My computer is giving me real headaches, and there’s a real lag time. I apologize.

  384. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Dude. GB. C’mon. I picked you lot.

  385. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Yea, Florence from what I told is nuts. I chose AUS for the language barrier and the dollar was stronger there. I figured I could do more down under for less money. Then, after graduation, I would have more coin to do Europe right.

    But, as mentioned by someone else today, after graduation its much tougher to find stretches of time to live like Hemmingway. Plus, you’re less likely to take such risks as bedbugs at a hostel after you’ve crossed the line of expensive luxuries.

  386. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Bret better get his act together!! I’ve only gotten 1 point!!

  387. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 8:54 pm

    BTW, is your boyfriend at UQ or Bond U in Surfer’s Paradise?

  388. Thrillington November 29th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    I recommend Budapest.

  389. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    Does Brian Gumbel ever get excited?

  390. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Thanks Bret you *hole! -1 point!! I knew I should have sat your butt.

  391. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    Mark- He uses the same tone of voice throughout the game. I’m thinking about muting the TV before I fall asleep. Touchdown ‘Boys.

  392. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 8:58 pm

    Hey don’t complain at least you get to watch it!!!

  393. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Jennifer- Your right i should not be complaining since I get to watch the game, and don’t worry brett will throw for some td’s still early.

  394. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Mark I hope you are right! If I don’t win this week I won’t make the playoffs for the first time. :(

  395. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Mike: Not in school. In the process of looking for a job, atm.

  396. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    Anyone watch the NBA here the knicks are down 37-18 to boston they are a joke.

  397. AJ November 29th, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    I really think the Yanks should pass on Santana. Sure Santana is great but he will not put this team over the top. This team is filled with holes and Yankees fans need to realize that. We were not one player or pitcher away from winning the series last year or the year before that. We have no bullpen, this team is filled with DH’S and we can’t play defense. This team needs to look for answers in the system and not via the trade. We need to rebuild and give the youngsters a shot. Again Santana is an ace so I am not going to argue that but you have to question Santana will give us that Hughes cannot? Last time I checked the Yankees have stopped hitting in the playoffs. Santana will not be able to fix that. Remember Pettitte threw a great game in the playoffs last year and we were not able to help him out.There is no quick fix answers here. I would hate to see the prospects go but it is the Yankees and they will do what it takes to draw revenue.

  398. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:05 pm

    Okay Brett you are supposed to throw for the touchdown!

  399. Brian (Red Sox Fan) November 29th, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    Phil …. the Sox will absolutely pursue Santana, even “after a championship.” Ironically, it’s the Yankee pusuit of Santana that guarantees it. The Sox realize that the balance of power shifts if the Yankees succeed, so they will try to beat them to the punch. Remember, the Sox are some $60 million/annum behind the Yankees in payroll. There is no need to think that they see any need to allow that discrepancy to continue. They will not allow the Yankees to alter the competitive balance w/o allocating more resources. The mentality of the Henry Group is 180 degrees from their predecessors.

  400. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    Shootout in BIG D

  401. Mike in SF November 29th, 2007 at 9:11 pm

    Whoa, that takes guts on his part. What stinks is that even to pick up a quick bartending/server gig while waiting for another job, Aussies don’t tip. I think it was something like $15/hour Australian for those types of jobs.

  402. pat November 29th, 2007 at 9:14 pm

    Brian

    Sox have been loathe to break into luxury tax territory. 25 million to Santana would almost guarantee that. Is that an area the Sox are willing to head into now?

  403. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    The Sox have tried to stay below the Luxury cap # and signing Santana would probably put them over.

    btw, isn’t Beckett a free agent in two years?

  404. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    Boston’s pursuit of Santana after a championship is reminiscent of the Yankees trading for Roger Clemens before the ’99 season. Even though the old saying goes, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,” if you have a chance to better your chances of repeating, you do it. Obviously the Rocket didn’t set the world on fire in ’99, but he did throw a gem in Game 4 against the Braves to clinch the World Series. The acquisition of Santana for the Yankees or the Red Sox can shift the momentum and could have much to do with which team wins it all. If the Yankees can get Santana, maybe he will be all we need to help deliver Number 27.

  405. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

    Rebecca – have you been there to see him yet? Australia is amazing. I spent a month there after I took the bar exam (when I didn’t mind slumming it).

    Mike – you can probably convert your GF into a Yankee fan–there are plenty of fun, cute players (although, maybe you don’t want to stress that so much…) Good luck with that, though.

  406. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 9:17 pm

    P.S. Between Green Bay and Dallas, the first team to 40 wins the game. I think that somebody might be getting 40 tonight. :)

  407. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    Mike: Yeah. I won’t get into my feelings on the matter.

  408. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

    The bosux are making that offer because they don’t really care if they get Santana, but they sure as hell care about the Yankees giving up Hughes. By offering Lester– he with the deceptive stats– they believe the twinkies will insist on Hughes over IPK. So it’s a game of chicken. For those of you knocking Hughes’ elite status, try to recall way back to May when he was absolutely dominating vs. Texas. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have had his no-no if not for the hammy. To say so confidently that Laptops has passed him is nonsense. He was great at the end of the year when he regained his arm strength. And another misconception floating around here, Hughes has never had elbow problems or any serious injury. He had a tired arm a couple of years ago and they shut him down as an abundance of caution. Laptops had the same thing happen to him THIS year. So easy on the demoting of Phil. If you pull the trigger on a trade with him, it is a VERY difficult decision. And know that the bosux made it necessary.

  409. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:25 pm

    Motown: Nope.

    Been to the US (obviously), Canada, Bermuda, Caribbean and Europe, but no Asia, Australia or South America.

    The top of my list is Iceland, Greenland, Israel, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Chile and Argentina.

  410. Caltech November 29th, 2007 at 9:31 pm

    Let’s recheck the scorecard since 2001

    Sox! ———- yanks
    =======================
    Ortiz ——— Giambi
    Schilling —– Johnson
    Beckett ——- Brown
    DiceK ——— Igawa
    Santana ——- Haren
    2 champs —— 0

    PITIFUL!

  411. Mark November 29th, 2007 at 9:33 pm

    If these were already reported then just disregard, but some stuff from mlbtraderumors.com
    Couple of notes for your drive-time commute. Ken Rosenthal reports that Troy Percival will sign with the Rays for two years and $8 million. Incentives could push it to $10 million. Here’s something you don’t see every day: they’re not making him take a physical — though they have seen his medical records.

    Apparently the Yankees threw more cash at him, but he opted for the closing opportunity in Tampa Bay.

    . The Yankees are still very much in the hunt, with their talks centering around Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano.

  412. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

    Reality Check, please don’t bring up the near no-hitter. The doubters will tell you that was against a bad Texas team. Even though that team went on to score 30 runs in another game.

  413. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

    Rebecca, there is no country more beautiful than Norway. The Fjords and mountainous landscape id breathtaking.

  414. sverlyn November 29th, 2007 at 9:35 pm

    Brian: [i]“There is no need to think that they see any need to allow that discrepancy to continue.[/i]

    Well one reason si that the Yanks revenue dwarfs the sox revenue
    They can’t win a $$$ war.
    The gate revenues are about equal. YES revenue is much higher than NESN because of the larger population in NY and a sweeter deal w/ the cable co’s.
    The just can’t match the Yanks payroll and with the new stadium, the discrepancy will get larger

  415. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    Rebecca,

    Japan is really a great place to visit. Warning: You will need lots of yen, and you must stay there at least a month to take in all the prefectures. It’s a must visit!

  416. Enoch November 29th, 2007 at 9:39 pm

    AJ – the Yankees have an amazing offense. One of the best, if not THE best in the game. There is no need to wait or rebuild.

    Acquiring Santana makes the a contending WS team. Actually, without him they still are a contender.

  417. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:39 pm

    Yeah, Mel, I know that is controversial. Not sure why people want to throw the only pitcher who pitched great in September and October under the bus to some extent. I don’t say you DON’T make the trade. I just say it is a hugely difficult decision to make. Laptops, while very talented, is a skinny thing with a body just looking to break down. Hughes is a horse. And as for character, well I need say no more than the word laptops. Still, it is Santana and the need to keep him away from the bosux is a very real added incentive. While I hate the bosux, they are playing this right by making us to have to make that very difficult decision.

  418. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    Reality Check: That had been on my list last spring, but the person I had wanted to visit I kind of lost contact with, and the price of going was extremely high…I went to Portugal instead, and got a great tan on my 21st birthday!

  419. Motown Yankees Fan November 29th, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    Rebecca – I recommend Croatia. Off the beaten path, totally beautiful.

  420. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    A co-worker of mine visited Iceland, said it was beautiful!

  421. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:41 pm

    Reality Check,

    Don’t you just dig his composure?

  422. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 9:43 pm

    damn when the Knicks want to stink they sure stink it up :(

  423. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:44 pm

    Have no idea if this is true, read it on a message board. Supposedly the Twins will NOT accept a trade with Coco. Which is just as I thought. :)

  424. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    Rebecca– yeah it is expensive, but worth it. I have the luxury of having a lot of family there, so the expense is lessened.

    Mel– his composure is awesome. I was at the Clemens flame-out, and he came in under the most difficult and dire circumstances and did a stpendous job. that cannot be minimized. The real Hughes is the guy we saw in Texas and at the end of the season. And I want to see more. Still, it is Johan…. Damn the bosux.

  425. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    Rangers finally beat the Islanders!

  426. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    Ok can we just discuss one thing…everyone keeps saying the Yankees will be killed in the Red Sox get Santana. I somewhat agree in that only because the fact that we are in the same division means that the road to the playoffs eventually goes through Boston.

    But let’s just recap for a sec. This past year the Yankees got off to one of the worst starts in recent memory. In June we were 14.5 games back. We ended the season 2 games back of the team with the BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL. AND we beat them in the season series. I am sorry, the Yankees ARENT that far from a World Series. We made the playoffs and got knocked again. Of course other things go into it now. We are a year older, new manager, etc. But let’s not forget that we have a very good team. Our lineup is deadly. We have fresh, young arms that hopefully under Girardi (who helped cultivate some great young pitching talent in Florida)will be able to consistently fit into some roles for us.

    I am a supporter of keeping Hughes and I dont believe in making moves to block other teams like Theo seems to love doing. But the Yankees need to consider that a dominant Red Sox team, unlike any other team in the league, can prevent the Yankees from actually ever making the playoffs. That’s the reality. The AL East is so dominant and there is a good chance that we won’t make the playoffs if the Red Sox become that much more dominant. For the record, I have supported keeping Hughes and I know that this Sox thing may be all song and dance to raise the price. The fact is however this isn’t the A’s or the Indians. This trade, if he goes to the Sox, could create a Yankee playoff problem like we havent experienced…

  427. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    o.k. These Celtics are really getting on my nerve. 65-31 after 4 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

    Why did the Knicks have to open their mouths and say they’re just three guys and not a team?

  428. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    C’mon man, you know better. At least the Nets can flirt with .500!

  429. AJ November 29th, 2007 at 9:48 pm

    “the Yankees have an amazing offense. One of the best, if not THE best in the game. There is no need to wait or rebuild”.

    Enoch-

    That offense has proven to be the “best in the game” the last 3 Octobers wouldn’t you agree?

  430. Brendon November 29th, 2007 at 9:49 pm

    I do not like the sound of this from MLBTRADERUMORS.COM

    UPDATE, 11-29-07 at 8pm: Despite what Jon Heyman said, the Boston Globe’s Nick Cafardo seems to think the Red Sox are still in the lead for Santana. It would be the package named below by Olney. Nothing is done yet, as Santana’s agent hasn’t been approached about an extension. Meanwhile Cafardo indicates that the Yankees may part with Robinson Cano after all. One other note: Peter Gammons suggests that the Sox would have to redo Josh Beckett’s reasonable deal if they acquire Santana and give him $20MM+.

    What I am scared about is Robinson Cano. I’d rather have Santanna go to the Red Sox if it means we keep Cano. If Cano gets traded to the Twins, I will, I will, I repeat, I will change my team. To the Twins.

  431. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:50 pm

    Catherine, you are spot on. But a very, very difficult decision still. It is more to keep him awy from the bosux than to acquire him. And the bosux know that and are making us give up Hughes.

  432. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:50 pm

    We just need to hope Santana wants New York as much as he says he does. He knows we can pay him, he’ll be on the biggest stage, and he’ll be the ace.

  433. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 9:51 pm

    Brendon – MLB Trade Rumors just compiles what they read on the net. They don’t necessary weed out what has zero basis to it. This is the second column today they reported on Santana that looks and smells like it was pulled directly out of someone’s butt.

    If given the choice, I’d listen to Heyman 10 times out of 10 here.

  434. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    Jennifer: They said on Mike and the Mad Dog that the Twins had no interest in Coco Crisp.

  435. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    mel it’s 3 ball heaven at Boston right now

    37 – 7 run that’s disgusting !!!

  436. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    Brendon– “still in the lead”? Who ever said they were in the lead? First report was today about their crispy offer.

  437. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    “Whatever will be, will be”…

    If you know that song, then you’re not young!

    Not to worry, guys. It’ll all work out. Worst-case scenario, Santana goes to Boston, but we’re still the Yankees.

  438. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

    Can we agree that Josh will not be as good next year?
    Curt will be a year older
    Wake see above
    Dice can go either way, learn the league or the league learns him.

    While I don’t want the Soxs to get Johan, I won’t exactly cry and lose sleep over it. I’d much rather have us keep the kids than trade everyone trying to trump the Soxs.

  439. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

    Or should I say LES-ter crispy offer.

  440. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

    Do we think that somehow through maybe Abreu’s and Santana’s same agent, Santana has been briefed on what the Yankees are willing to offer plus all the perks playing in NEw York offers? I know he probably knows all this but do we think, avoiding interference, the Yankees HAVE had some contact with Santana?

  441. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

    Okay thanks Andrea, I couldn’t stand to listen to sports talk today. It was driving me crazy.

  442. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 9:54 pm

    ahh I hate Erred Efferies he has no J to his name !!!! plays no D at all !!! these Hicks getting smacked in B-Town !!!

  443. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:54 pm

    Catherine,

    LOL. I think that we can assume there’s been some sort of back-door communication.

  444. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    Catherine, that’s the other problem. Cash plays it fair and the bosux do not (see Millar and Nancy Drew).

  445. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    ooo i like it.

  446. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    Can players speak with other players under contract regarding coming to their team?

    Can Bobby speak frankly with Johan about whether or not he wants to come to the Yankees?

  447. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:56 pm

    Cash is a stand up guy no doubt, but the fact that Santana can essentially change everything makes it seem to me that the teams involved should have contact with him…legal or not muhaha

  448. BC November 29th, 2007 at 9:56 pm

    No way they should trade any of the big 3 (joba, hughes, ipk). For what, one year of Santana at $13MM and the “right” to negotaite with him for a long term deal, during which he will be paid a market rate anyway? Where is the value in that. Hughes will be better in 2 years anyway. In fact, Hughes was better LAST YEAR, after August 1. Something was wrong with Santana in the 2nd half last year (4+ ERA). No, we dont want to give up Hughes for 1 year of damaged goods at a decent rate ($13MM).
    Coco crisp is worthless and has no value to the Sox with Ellsbury there.

  449. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    Jennifer, yes they can. But Cash cannot use them as a conduit. And I am sure he does not.

  450. Brendon November 29th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    I never said it was going to happen, I think Heyman is 10 times more reliable than Tim Dierkes from MLBTRADERUMORS…with that being said I hope Robinson is not traded, i highly doubt the Yankees would trade him too that is just unheard of.

  451. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    …I just turned Knicks/Celtics on.

    Hole.

    Ee.

    Shi

    t.

  452. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    Don’t disagree, Catherine. But Cash I think has more integrity than I do.

  453. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    Reality of course not. wink wink nood nood.
    :)

  454. Buddy Biancalana November 29th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    Mike in SF, Nate C & Berra8-

    I am in SF as well, have been for almost 7 years. Arinell Pizza on Valencia near 16th is a really good authentic NY Pizza joint. Feels like there are tons of Red Sox fans out here compared to Yankee fans. I am bummed about that the only trip the Yanks make out here is in June during the middle of the week. Though the awesome thing about SF is all the easy flights to Anaheim, Seattle, SD & LA to catch the Yanks.

  455. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    The Yankees negotiated Abreu’s contract option this offseason. Although Cash plays by the rules, I find it hard to believe Abreu’s agent left without knowing the Yankees are very interested in another one of his clients…

  456. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    Jennifer: It wasn’t today, it was a few days ago. But they were basically saying that the Twins are going cheap on this. They were saying that they probably weren’t going to want Cano or Wang because they’re too expensive, so they definitely probably wouldn’t want Crisp’s contract. I don’t know how much Cano or Wang make that they’re that much more expensive than Melky, Hughes or Kennedy, but whatever.

  457. mel November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    Oh, my. 40 point lead 3 min. left in the 3rd. Knicks by quarters 16/15/6 Celts by quarters 27/27/23. Now, I don’t mind Tom Brady running up the score, but I do object to the Celtics doing it!

  458. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    Bright side of the fiasco in bosux town– maybe that will jettison IT from the Knicks.

  459. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    maybe just maybe if they get blown out by 60 pts. Dolan can fire Isiah :(

  460. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 9:59 pm

    okay I didn’t spell that right, damn I have no idea how to spell it. But I think you get the picture. ;)

  461. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:00 pm

    Why a team trying to save money would pick up Crisp’s contract is beyond me. Especially when Melky would be such a better option…

  462. Jennifer - HIP HIP JORGE! November 29th, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    Okay I was close it is nod nod. :)

  463. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    I do, Jen.

  464. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    Maybe the Yankees can offer Starbury too?

  465. mel November 29th, 2007 at 10:03 pm

    Gamecast is stuck. Did they use the mercy rule or was there a brawl at the Garden?

  466. Buddy Biancalana November 29th, 2007 at 10:03 pm

    Looks like Riske is signing withe Brewers to be their new closer.

  467. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    Yankees trade:
    Melky
    Kennedy
    Marbury
    Pennington

    Yankees get:
    Johan
    bag of Doritos

  468. Reality Check November 29th, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    The other dynamic at work here is that the other teams always ask more from the Yankees– a lot more. See the Shill (the Dbacks take a bag of dung from the bosux but demand Sori from us) and Gagme (they take maybe a 5th starter from the bosux and demand Phil or Joba from us). Just a fact of lfe I am afraid. Also, the bosux, if I am reading thos right, want to make an offer that the Twinkies will refuse BUT make us give up Phil.

  469. El Comaduce November 29th, 2007 at 10:05 pm

    i miss baseball… but my rangers won…

    Going back to SJ44 stat about 4 or more runs in a game… Wang did it 9 times. Beckett 7, cc 8,

    MY favorite pitcher, only because of his nick name. Doc Halladay 10 times…

    and more importantly – to all you youngsters on this board, GET A SHORE HOUSE WHEN YOU TURN 21…

    I REPEAT – GET A SHORE HOUSE…. Best times of my youth where had in DJais in belmar…

  470. Sparky O November 29th, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    Boy do the knicks stink or what?

  471. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 10:07 pm

    Catherine throw in Isiah Thomas as a mascot and Eddy Curry we might get that done

  472. ray November 29th, 2007 at 10:09 pm

    Mel…no brawl yet at Celtic/Knick game. Beginning of fourth quarter 82-41

  473. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 10:09 pm

    Those doritos better not be cooler ranch. GOD I hate cooler ranch doritos. It’s regular doritos in the red bag or NO deal.

  474. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:09 pm

    I was thinking with Marbury, Pennington, Thomas, and Curry the Twins could start their own variation of the sausage race. Maybe that will make the fans forgive them for the fact that their new domeless stadium should have an average 50 degree temp for opening day

  475. mel November 29th, 2007 at 10:10 pm

    OMG, in the 3rd quarter, the Knicks only scored 10 points. 10 points. Keep playing, Ray, Paul, and Kevin. Keep racking up those minutes and see how legs hold up in May.

  476. mel November 29th, 2007 at 10:11 pm

    ray,

    Thanks. Gamecast is back on track. Operator must have woke up with the 3rd quarter buzzer. Sheesh.

  477. ray November 29th, 2007 at 10:13 pm

    Don’t worry Mel…..LOL…..I don’t we will see any of the big 3 in fourth quarter.

  478. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:15 pm

    Think we can lure Sabathia to New York next year with a couple of White Castle sliders? Unless anyone thinks those sliders will turn out to be more valuable…

  479. mel November 29th, 2007 at 10:16 pm

    Ray,

    Hey, hey, hey. The Big 3 is Joba, Hughes, and IPK.

    Get your own moniker. Like “Brothers Rim” or “Grumpy Old Men” or the “Larry Who? Gang”.

    But seriously, get off the court so the Lakers game won’t be delayed.

  480. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    If the Twins don’t want Coco, then someone should offer them some instant coffee. And at least that Knicks-Celtics game isn’t at MSG. Could you imagine the kind of crowd noise that would be happening there? Wow.

  481. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    people I’ll brb I got to go kill a corona or 2 w/ some chips :(

  482. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

    If there ever was a team that would be better off forfeiting a season…Hello Knicks

  483. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 10:20 pm

    Seriously guys, us Nets fans are always welcome to increase our number.

    We can win these things on occasion, they’re called games…and our coach (as far as I know) is actually whatchamacallit….good.

  484. ray November 29th, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    Charles Barkley is speculating that if the Knicks lose tomorrow night it could well be Isaiah’s last game.

  485. mel November 29th, 2007 at 10:26 pm

    Isiah’s cursed. Of course, we all make our own luck…

  486. migames November 29th, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    isaiah should have been fired before torre, hell, he should have been fired before stump merrill

  487. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    ray- I’m not sure why, but I can see Isiah making it through the year. James Dolan really seems to like Isiah. It seems like Isiah is always able to somehow keep from getting fired. The guy has more lives than Detroit Lions president Matt Millen. ;)

  488. Dan November 29th, 2007 at 10:30 pm

    on rotoworld:

    The New York Times reports that the Yankees are sticking to an offer of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and at least one minor leaguer for Johan Santana.

    The Times believes Jose Tabata could be the minor leaguer. The Twins are holding out for Phil Hughes over Kennedy. Unless the Yankees put Robinson Cano in the deal, it’s hard to see them getting Santana without trading Hughes. Joba Chamberlain is completely off limits.

  489. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    What a full of crap editorital by Rotoworld. Money Talks.

  490. ray November 29th, 2007 at 10:36 pm

    J-Dawg
    I would not be surprised if Isiah lasts the whole year. I think it has been tough dealing with people like Marbury who exhibits a lot of drama quite regularly.

  491. Knickerbocker Nick November 29th, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    The NBA could do the Knicks a favor and put the Harlem Globetrotters on their schedule just to give the Washington Generals a travel break.
    If they’re going to be made fools of, let’s do it right.

  492. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    As far as we can tell and from what we hear, Robbie is in the off-limits category along with Joba. Robbie has earned the right to stay here. He will only continue to mature as a hitter and he will really be dynamite when he reaches his prime. Add some plate discipline that will come along with maturity and the potential is there for Cano to become one of the game’s top hitters.

    I also think that having Joe Girardi around can help Robbie fight through some of his lackadaisical patches. Every once in a while, Robbie has a day when he is a bit lazy in the field. Girardi will have very little tolerance for that. Bottom line, Cano is on the verge of a fantastic career and his All-Star selection from 2006 should not be his last. He still has several All-Star games left in him.

  493. J-Dawg November 29th, 2007 at 10:40 pm

    ray- Dealing with Marbury has to take years off of a coach’s life. I know that I couldn’t handle it!

  494. susan mullen November 29th, 2007 at 10:47 pm

    NY Times says the Twins wouldn’t want Coco Crisp’s salary, which makes sense. That brings the deal down to Lester, so it’s really nothing. The Yankees should not give up even a glass of stale Yankee lemonade at this moment. No more long term deals with pitchers with a lot of mileage on their arms who’ve yet to have surgery, who’ve been kept at a low pitch count. The Yankees would need a lot more help in the bullpen to carry Santana. As far as the post season, unfortunately he shows no signs of being the horse Posada correctly says we need. To win the World Series, if that’s what you’re talking about, you have to get through perhaps a dog fight to get to the post season, then 3 levels of play. Santana hasn’t shown the stamina required for that. He couldn’t even get his team out of the first round of the 2004 post season. The must-win Game 4 ALDS, Yanks v Twins, Santana left after 5 innings to cheering crowds, Twins leading 5-1. The Yankees won 6-5 in 11 innings, winning pitcher Mariano Rivera.

  495. Mrs. Hughes November 29th, 2007 at 10:50 pm

    My son wants to be a Yankee.

  496. DVB Forever November 29th, 2007 at 10:54 pm

    Santana makes it official. Accepts trade to yankees tonight !

  497. bskul November 29th, 2007 at 10:55 pm

    yea…ok DVB

  498. Make The Right Trade November 29th, 2007 at 10:56 pm

    Why not trade Chamberlain? Does anyone really believe he is better than Hughes? We’ve been hearing ’bout Hughes for years now. This kid Chamberlain comes along, has a good 30% of a season showing us his fastball for an inning at a time and he’s better than the “next Roger Clemens”?

    Seriously, I am just asking. Heck, give ‘em all up, I have very strong beliefs that prospects are mostly just totally overblown and kids like Joba and Hughes are injuries waiting to happen.

  499. gianthinker November 29th, 2007 at 10:58 pm

    I’d offer the Twins a package of Kei Igawa, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and Alberto Gonzalez and if it took another lower prospect included I’d be fine with that. That would give them two starters to replace Garza and Santana, a CF and another option for SS. Igawa shouldn’t seem like a bad idea to them being that he’s cheap.

  500. Caltech November 29th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    Danny Haren here we come! You’re the Kei Igawa of 2008!

  501. Andrea November 29th, 2007 at 11:03 pm

    Make the Right Trade: While I agree that Hughes should stick around, it’s not fair to compare him to Hughes only because Hughes has been talked about for years. Joba hasn’t been around for years. He went from A to MLB just this year. He hasn’t had time to be talked about for years.

    I really wish there were a way to keep all three of them.

  502. Thrillington November 29th, 2007 at 11:03 pm

    Huh. I am a bit late to the dance on this one, but MLB.com’s lead story is that the Sox have taken the lead in the Santana trade.

    Hope it’s true and that it stays that way. Didn’t realize the news was substantiated beyond rumors.

  503. Bobcat November 29th, 2007 at 11:05 pm

    Jack Curry’s article and the other “leaks” of the evening deserve an update:

    1) More “public posturing”. This time by the Yankees. Curry only got what he was supposed to, which was Cabrera in, no Hughes. He wasn’t given the rest of the trade, because “the rest” is a moving target of lower level guy(s). The “leak” to Curry was designed to offset the “leaks” by the Red Sox and Twins earlier today. You read what you’re supposed to read.

    2) Repeat from earlier: The teams are still negotiating. The Twins are trying to get the Yankees to add more. The Red Sox are NOT giving up their big boys. The Red Sox have no interest in paying Santana $25M per year. Beckett will want the same, sooner rather than later.

    3) It’s getting close to “take it or leave it” time. When Hank makes a public statement, that will be it.

    Standard disclaimer: This may be less than what you were looking for, but I’m not in a position to “announce”. Never have been. I can confirm or deny published reports. You have that information above.

  504. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:06 pm

    It’s not true.

  505. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

    Bobcat,
    do you work for the yankees?

  506. Greg C November 29th, 2007 at 11:10 pm

    Bobcat:

    I can’t tell from your post, does this really mean that Hughes is off the table?

  507. Caltech November 29th, 2007 at 11:11 pm

    From that Jack Curry article, it sounds like pettitte has almost made up his mind to hang it up for sure.

  508. Buddy Biancalana November 29th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Bobcat-

    Still 75% chance Johan goes to the Yanks?

  509. hmmm November 29th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    thanks bobcat.

    everything seems to make sense right now. the two teams have each offered pretty even packages. each have offered an A- prospect, a B+ prospect, and another player.

    the Twins are basically saying: whoever gives up 1 of the 4 A+ prospects (Hughes, Joba, Ellsbury, Buchholz) will win.

    neither teams is budging.

    that’s my take on it.

  510. Rebecca--Optimist Prime November 29th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Real Bobcat sighting.

  511. bskul November 29th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Pettitte should give it 1 more go around. he’d be huge for this team, whether we get santana or not.

  512. PittsburghYankeeFan November 29th, 2007 at 11:14 pm

    Thanks, Bobcat. A voice of reason.

    Do you think Santana will drive the Twins to do the deal in the end with a threat of playing out his contract for 08, leaving them with nothing but draft picks, especially with “take it or leave it” time approaching?

  513. Thrillho November 29th, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    If Santana goes to the Red Sox I will be I wont know what to do. Its sad, but I invest so much of myself into the Yankees. By the end of the season I am emotionally drained. For example, after the collapse in 2004 I sank into a legitimate depression and didn’t leave my bed for 4 days.

    I realize this sounds pathetic but I love this team. Everyone here talks about stats, trades, this and that but no one ever just stops to say how much joy it gives you to watch this team play baseball.

    If the Red Sox get Santana and have a rotation of Beckett, Santana, Matsukzaka, Schilling and Buchollz(sp?) combined with their offense… that is the making of a latter day dynasty. Yanks need to make this happen now.

  514. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:15 pm

    Bobcat,

    we were posting at the same time, my last comment pertained to Thrillington’s post, not your’s.

    Keep rocking!

    The Yanks have 40 on their 40 man roster and still need to add ARod, Mo and Molina, are they looking at any smaller trades to relieve excess?

  515. Goldthwait November 29th, 2007 at 11:16 pm

    Just thought I’d post under this handle for fun.

    Ahhhh…the 80′s.

  516. Sean November 29th, 2007 at 11:19 pm

    Bobcat if you can answer this, does it seem like the Yankees are reluctant to trade Hughes?

  517. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:19 pm

    Thrillho,
    Awww I kinda used to be like that too. Like if the yankees lost, even against Tampa, it would bother me to the point where you would always know whether they won or lost by the mood I was in. And I didn’t get out of that mood until the next game. It was really bad.
    But remember that it’s just a game and the Yankees will always be around. Plus no matter how many times the Mets win or the Red Sox win or whoever wins, they’ll never be the Yankees ;)

  518. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:20 pm

    btw the mlb.com report is just based on the espn and st. pioneer reports, nothing new.

  519. your neighbor November 29th, 2007 at 11:22 pm

    I don’t mind not getting Santana as long as he’s not going to the sox and our Big 3 is intact. Why can’t Santana be less greedy like Halladay and just sign a relatively reasonable contract ($13 mil/yr) to stay with his original team? Speaking of Halladay, there’s a bum; the reason he’s staying in Toronto is of course he knows he’s got no chance handling the pressure of pitching in a big market.

  520. Kill-Schill(ing) November 29th, 2007 at 11:23 pm

    How tight are Abreu and Santana, anyone know? They both are Venezuelans and use Greenberg as their agent. But are they close?

  521. CaptainsCorner November 29th, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    I think the point should be if the Twins tell the Yanks include Hughes or there is no deal and he is going else where would they include him??? I wouldn’t want to if I was Cash but if it was the deal breaker then I would. You have to!!

  522. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    Thrillho,

    Worry about who’s on your team, not someone else’s. You’ll be driven crazy otherwise. I was able to sleep easy even after the Sox won the WS and, trust me, I’m as big a Yankee fan as anyone.

    No matter what, there’s a whole lot to be more than excited about if you’re a Yankee fan.

  523. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:25 pm

    if hughes is the dealbreaker then you put him on the table and make the deal happen. they’d better not blow this over phil hughes.

  524. hmmm November 29th, 2007 at 11:26 pm

    “Why can’t Santana be less greedy like Halladay and just sign a relatively reasonable contract ($13 mil/yr) to stay with his original team? ”

    this is BS. the owner of the Twins is one of the richest people in the world.

    Johan should take a 40% discount to save a multi-billionaire .001% of his money?

    no way. Pohlad is the one who is greedy. he made the taxpayers of minnesota buy him a new stadium and now he going to trade their hero.

  525. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:26 pm

    kasey,
    if hughes wins 17 games next year and Santana wins 15, are you gonna say the yankees should have kept him?

  526. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:28 pm

    LC – hit me with your email address or email me at kasey@kaseyanderson.com. we can exchange physical addresses via email.

    no matter who either guy plays for, if hughes wins more games than santana next year, i’ll mail you a check for $100. you must be outside your mind.

  527. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 11:28 pm

    LC,

    Exactly. This is why you have to keep a level head over this, and hope Cash and Hank are as well.

  528. Bobcat November 29th, 2007 at 11:28 pm

    A general followup:

    1) The public posturing has a lot of accurate information; it should, it comes from the teams. The names that have been published are accurate. However, the Red Sox are NOT giving up a big boy.

    2) The Yankees are digging their heels regarding Hughes and getting very close to letting the Red Sox try to negotiate with Santana. That might be a gamble they don’t want to take, but the Twins are still going to get a great deal more than they can realize from two 2009 Amateur Draft picks if Santana goes to FA after 2008. They are willing to add smaller pieces to the published names, but not a big boy.

    3) The Yankees’ are very close to lowering their offer if the Twins raise it (go in the opposite direction and then meet in the middle)… same result.

    4) Hank will get involved very soon, which will drive the trade one way or the other.

  529. hmmm November 29th, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    “I wouldn’t want to if I was Cash but if it was the deal breaker then I would. You have to!!”

    no you don’t.

    you can simply NOT do it.

    other pitchers will hit the market.

    if the yankees truly believe Phil is special, they need to stick to their guns.

    and if the internet GMs don’t like it, they can become Sox fans.

  530. Blargh November 29th, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    To Bobcat:
    Any developments on the Joe Nathan front?

  531. Mitchell's Eleven November 29th, 2007 at 11:31 pm

    that just sounded like a bit too much direct info to be from Bobcat. i could be wrong…

  532. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:31 pm

    “2) The Yankees are digging their heels regarding Hughes and getting very close to letting the Red Sox try to negotiate with Santana.”

    if this is true, it’s the dumbest yankees front office move since pavano. maybe dumber in that they had know way of knowing pavano would be this big a bust.

    that is infuriatingly stubborn and it’s going to come back to haunt them if it’s true.

  533. JZ November 29th, 2007 at 11:33 pm

    New to the board:

    What is the back story on “Bobcat”

    Seems to be an authority of some sort…”Real Bobcat”, “Fake Bobcat Sightings”…

    Has he been known to either be accurate, or get legitamate inside info?

  534. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:33 pm

    Chad Jennings has a great analysis of the supposed Red Sox offer, and what it might take for the Yankees to match it, on the SWB Blog. Chad is relentless – he’s got new posts daily, and they’re always thorough. Check out his last 3 paragraphs from today’s post:

    If that is in fact the Red Sox offer, what would it take for the Yankees to top it?

    Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson and Humberto Sanchez would be a pretty similar offer. Whether it would be better than the Red Sox package would almost certainly depend on the personal preference of the Twims.

    Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jose Tabata and Alan Horne would surely get the Twins attention and might make them think twice about sending Santana to Fenway, but it wouldn’t exactly blow the Red Sox out of the water.

    Joba Chamberlain, Melky Cabrera, Jose Tabata and Dellin Betances seems like a better deal to me, but would the Yankees do that? Does that seem like too much?

    http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....fault.aspx

  535. Giuseppe Franco November 29th, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    I’ve said it many times in recent days and it’s worth repeating:

    NEVER make a deal to prevent him from going to your rival. Make the deal because it makes the most sense for YOUR team.

    Cashman got caught up in that mess a year ago when the Red Sox got Dice-K and the Yanks countered with Kei Igawa. It was a stupid bid from the get-go and Cashman made a bad very move for all the wrong reasons.

    Secondly, if Buchholz nor Ellsbury is a part of that deal – they are NOT getting Santana. It’s that simple. Coco Crisp as the centerpiece won’t get a whiff of Santana’s jock shorts, much less the whole player.

    Also, the domino effect a potential Santana deal would have on Beckett should not be underestimated. Beckett would immediately squawk about this guy getting paid more than double of what he makes. He would want a new deal and Theo and Co. doesn’t want to open a whole new can of worms.

    Let’s also not overlook that Fenway would not exactly be a paradise for a left-hander like Santana whose homerun balls went up dramatically last season.

    One of two things are going to happen:

    • Santana will end up with the Yanks before the season begins
    • Twins decide to keep him for the time being and go for the division with Santana and Liriano

    I’d be shocked if he ended up with the Red Sox. I don’t see Theo pulling the trigger given the money and young talent he would have to give up.

  536. Mike November 29th, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    Oh man do I hope they did in their heels here on Hughes. Cashman better be kept in charge of these negotiations, because he knows he can get this done without the Franchise. Kids like Melancon can be added if need be. I can’t see Boston getting Santana with that deal. It would be like the Schilling for Fossum deal. Asking a ransom of the Yankees but not the Sox.

  537. Kill-Schill(ing) November 29th, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    Maybe someone in the Yankees FO knows either 1) Santana doesn’t want to play for Boston or 2) Boston doesn’t want to pay him the money. Maybe the Yankees are calling the bluff. It’s a ballsy move, at the very least.

  538. Dave November 29th, 2007 at 11:34 pm

    Bobcat,

    What cant Johan just come out and say he only wants to play for NY? Why would he make the yankees suffer and give up more prospects and more key future pieces because they think they have competition if in actuality they dont? If Santana wants to play for NY he wouldnt want this trade to weaken the team that he has a shot to win a championship on. He can very easily go outside his house and announce to some media guy that he only wants to play for NY and that is the only trade he would approve.

    If the sox have no interest in paying santana the money or offering any worthwhile prospects over lester and crisp (which is an extremely mediocre deal not nearly as good as ipk and melky alone not even mentioning all of the prospects such as tabata, jackson and horne that the sox just dont have) why are the twins even listening to their offers? They are clearly just doing this to attempt to raise the price in prize prospects for the yanks and the yanks arent idiots – they know how much value lester and crisp have alone, crisp would almost be a salary dump and lester has some very weak peripherals at all levels.

    Hank making a public take it or leave it statement concerning a trade before it is accepted would be highly detrimental to the yanks. One, they would be telling the whole world the best deal they are offering and teams that really want santana can attempt to beat it out by a little bit. Two, if the twins say no, again the yanks put themselves in a horribly akward position to completely end talks and risk losing santana to another team or to come groveling back to the twins offering them more – same stupid crap we did with arod. Hank should not announce a thing – he needs to be smarter than the team was in the arod situation.

  539. Taylor November 29th, 2007 at 11:35 pm

    Yes, it is way too much. You’d have to be f*cking crazy to make that trade.

  540. hmmm November 29th, 2007 at 11:36 pm

    “I wouldn’t want to if I was Cash but if it was the deal breaker then I would. You have to!!”

    it’s not being stubborn. they are sticking up for themselves.

    Kennedy and Lester are 4 star prospects.
    Tabata and Lowrie are 4 star propects.
    Coco and Melky are roughly equivalent.

    Hughes is a 5 star prospect.

    why should the Yankees have to pay more than the Sox?

    why should they give in to that?

    1 5 star prospect, 1 4 star prospect, their CFer, and $150M for ONE pitcher who is coming off his worst (didn’t say BAD, but his worst) season?

    that’s a TON to give up. a ton.

    if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen. but i don’t think they should cave in and pay more than Boston is being asked to pay.

  541. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:37 pm

    kasey,
    haha whoaaa I never said I thought Hughes would win more games, I just wanted to make sure that next year you wont act like they shouldn’t have traded him IF he does. But if that happens and you wanna send me $100, I wont stop you ;)

  542. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:37 pm

    No offense guys, but all this stuff about not including Hughes and seeing what the Twins do is foolish. Isn’t it obvious that the Yankees need to include Hughes or the Twins will accept the Red Sox offer? This is it. Include Hughes, or he goes to the Red Sox. They won’t take Kennedy.

  543. Retire21 November 29th, 2007 at 11:39 pm

    http://www.rotoworld.com/conte.....px?sport=M

    Seems like Yankees are sticking to their guns and are just offering Ian Kennedy of the big three.if you scroll down you’ll see a yankees news update.

  544. gayle November 29th, 2007 at 11:39 pm

    If the Red Sox have no interest in paying 25 mil per year for Santana then fine let him be a one year rental, let the Red Sox give up what has been reported and we will wait til next year when he becomes a free agent and get him for cold hard cash and no prospects. Although if they cannot get a deal done then I am sure they also do not want to give up the prospects for a one year rental.

    I have to say I am starting to get quickly over this whole Santana thing. I know with all the moving parts that this type of thing doesnt happen overnight BUT I am getting a little tired of all the machinations, the daily leaks, back and forth etc. I agree that at some point the time to fish or cut bait is coming and hopefully soon so the team can move on to other things.

  545. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    LC –

    it’s simple. hughes won’t win 17 games next year. or the year after that. or the year after that. he may not win 17 games in a season over his entire career. if santana wins 17 next year, it’ll be an “off” year for him.

    hughes better have a MONSTER season, though, if he’s the reason they’re going to wind up without johan santana. he better have a pretty damn good career.

    this is arrogance, stubbornness and stupidity on behalf of the yankees. hughes isn’t good enough to pass up johan santana. odds are, he never will be.

  546. stuart November 29th, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    let the sux get Santana especially if they trade bcuholtz, lester, and 2 other guys..

    you can have him… adios…

    do not trade Hughes under any circumstances…….

  547. GL November 29th, 2007 at 11:41 pm

    Random thoughts…

  548. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    stuart,

    bucholz isn’t on the table. it’s lester, crisp, lowrie and masterson.

    no bucholz, no ellsbury.

  549. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    Retire21 – thanks – this was posted earlier, around 10pm…

    “The New York Times reports that the Yankees are sticking to an offer of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and at least one minor leaguer for Johan Santana.
    The Times believes Jose Tabata could be the minor leaguer. The Twins are holding out for Phil Hughes over Kennedy. Unless the Yankees put Robinson Cano in the deal, it’s hard to see them getting Santana without trading Hughes. Joba Chamberlain is completely off limits.”

  550. Taylor November 29th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    If Hughes is the deal breaker, then the deal shouldn’t be made. The Yankees can still put together a better package than the Sox without including Hughes if they aren’t including Buchholz or Ellsbury.

  551. GL November 29th, 2007 at 11:43 pm

    Random thoughts…
    Can someone tell me why the Yankees aren’t talking more about Dan Haren? He would be a cheaper alternative to Santana and is coming off a good year.

    Pettitte…I smell a rat (Clemens). This intense competitor can’t possibly be thinking about closing it down at 35 because ‘he wants to spend more time with his family.’ He’s got plenty of years for that…what’s the deal?

  552. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:44 pm

    The Yanks should dig in their heels on Hughes. The Sox aren’t gonna negotiate with Santana.

  553. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:44 pm

    The Yankees cannot put together a better package than the Sox without including Hughes. That is where the negotiations are at. That is it — include Hughes or he goes to the Red Sox.

  554. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:44 pm

    Anyone think Melky is crying on Cano’s shoulder somewhere at a club in the DR with all these reports? Got to be tough on a kid – especially knowing you may be drifting back on deep fly balls into a Hefty bag, and not the classy blue padding of Yankee Stadium’s outfield barrier…

  555. Taylor November 29th, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    Haren, given his salary, would cost a fortune.

  556. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    haren wouldn’t be cheaper than santana in terms of what they’d have to give up. haren would cost them MORE talent. billy beane knows what he’s doing.

  557. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:45 pm

    A lot of projections have Hughes as our best pitcher next year. With health and Yankee run support, why can’t he win 17?

  558. Catherine November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    This may be dumb but if the twins honestly want to ever compete in the AL why would they send the best pitcher in baseball to the World Series champs for a less talented package?

  559. mel November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    hmmm,

    I’m in agreement with your last post. Hank’s already started the posturing. He said days ago that teams always ask for more from the Yankees than from other teams. He said that they will not be robbed by the Twins. Days ago.

  560. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    kasey,
    IDK, I think it’s too soon to tell how good or bad Phil Hughes will be. Would I love to have Johan? OF COURSE, but that doesn’t mean Hughes is going to be a bust.

  561. JoeT YANKEES November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11.....ref=slogin

    here’s the link with that story of IPK Melk and Tabata

    i’ve been saying for about a week it would be IPK or Hughes, Melk, and an Austin Jackson/Brondon Sardinhia type player… i guess i was close with that – i agree though – don’t give up PH, way too much of an upside..

  562. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    everyone in favor of keeping hughes, please remember your position. you’re going to look awfully foolish if santana ends up in boston.

  563. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

    berra8,

    the Yanks can cook up at least half a dozen better offers than the mediocre lot Boston has assembled for their offer.

  564. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:47 pm

    GL – consensus is that Billy Beane can afford ot ask for more for Haren, as Haren I believe is signed (shrewdly) for the next 2-3 years. Beane doesn’t HAVE to trade Haren now.
    Smith is under more pressure ot trade Santana, as he only gets 2 draft picks after the 2008 season if he leaves via FA.

    Smith is trying to get what he can now.
    Beane has all the time in the world.

  565. hmmm November 29th, 2007 at 11:47 pm

    “Also, the domino effect a potential Santana deal would have on Beckett should not be underestimated. Beckett would immediately squawk about this guy getting paid more than double of what he makes. He would want a new deal and Theo and Co. doesn’t want to open a whole new can of worms.”

    with all due respect, this is just silly.

    this isn’t the NFL, he can’t get out of his contract.

    Beckett signed a contract. he can “squawk” all he wants. he’s signed for 3 more years.

    this couldn’t possible be any less of an issue.

  566. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    after they ask me for Hughes I’d pull Tabata from the deal too just so they know I mean business, try explaining to Minny that you traded for 3 injury prone players in Master, Crisp and Lester

  567. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    and when the Yanks get Santana without giving up Hughes, everyone who wanted to throw in Hughes, please remember you got the yips and learn something for use in future negotiations from that.

  568. mel November 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    Kobe just hit a sick 3 sandwiched between 2 defenders with milliseconds on the clock to end the half.

  569. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    Phil —

    No they can’t. This is it. That’s what you don’t understand. Include Hughes or we’re taking the Red Sox offer. Is it worth it?

    You all need to think long and hard about that. You can forget the division or the World Series for the next few years at least.

  570. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

    hughes may not be a “bust” but johan santana comes along once in a generation. the absolute BEST hughes could do in his career would be to be the pitcher santana ALREADY is. what are the odds hughes realizes 100% of his potential, stays healthy, etc? it’s just stupid to pass up an opportunity to get santana. it’s arrogant, stubborn overvaluing of a prospect. ask the angels how hanging on to ervin santana worked out.

  571. GL November 29th, 2007 at 11:49 pm

    Isn’t Haren signed for 3 years at $16MM?

    Beane would want more than Hughes, Melky and a prospect?

  572. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:50 pm

    Phil,

    I’ll tell you what. If the Yankees get Santana this offseason without giving up Phil Hughes, I will buy you tickets to whatever Yankees game you want to go to.

  573. LCâ„¢ November 29th, 2007 at 11:50 pm

    kasey,
    I never said I wouldn’t give up Hughes for Santana. TBH I probably would if I were the Yankees. I just don’t think he’s as bad as you make him out to be.

  574. GL November 29th, 2007 at 11:50 pm

    Thanks Steve Howe…makes sense.

  575. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:51 pm

    That’s not the case at all, Berra 8. The Sox offer isn’t very good and there’s no need to throw Hughes in to top the below average 5M cf, the pitcher with no command, the minor league SS who’s older than Melky and the minor league pitcher who put up an ERA over 4 in AA at 22. Yanks can beat that offer several different ways and they are wise to push the Twins.

  576. rjay November 29th, 2007 at 11:51 pm

    Why does everyone keep saying that Haren would be a cheaper alternative are you kidding me? He is still on contract for 3 more years at a very manageable price and Billy would ask for the moon and sun for that especially after the career year he just had. Haren would cost way more in terms of talent no question.

  577. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:51 pm

    and y’know what? beckett just won a world series (again). if they sign santana, which pretty much guarantees boston a shot at the series for the next four years, you really think he’s going to squawk about money? or do you think lucchino and epstein will promise him he’ll be taken care of when his time comes? beckett’s a non-issue.

    as berra8 said, here’s the bottom line: give up hughes and get santana. stick to your guns and enjoy watching boston carve out a dynasty.

  578. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:51 pm

    berra8,

    neato man!

  579. Giuseppe Franco November 29th, 2007 at 11:52 pm

    Hmmm:

    One word: RESPECT

    That’s what athletes care about and it doesn’t matter what sport.

    Beckett is not going to like another guy making more than twice what he’s making after he was such a big part in helping this team get a ring.

    Money = Respect

    BTW, I never said he could get out of his contract. You are making up stuff.

  580. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:52 pm

    You got it. You understand that the offer means giving up anything “greater” than Hughes as well (Chamberlain or Cano). Cool?

  581. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

    GL

    Oakland can AFFORD Haren for those 3 years, so why trade him, unless some team knocks your socks off.

    Minnesota can’t afford to keep Santanabeyodn next year, so they shop him for the best offer…

    I just think that to pry Haren loose it may take more than it would to get Santana, if Beane plays it right.

  582. Mike November 29th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

    berra8,

    Can I get in on that ticket deal too? If you don’t think the Yankees can pull this off without including Phil, you don’t realize how good the Yankees farm system is.

    If the Yankees offer was IPK, Melky, Tabata, Jackson, and Horne, the Twins would be dumb to not accept. The Yankees are certainly trying to do it without Jackson or Phil Franchise, but adding Jackson would easily top the Sox deal.

  583. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

    Kasey, Santana was never a #1 overall SP, there is still Kazmir,Peavy,Bedard all viable options

  584. kasey November 29th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    1. phil – no offense, but your opinion is wrong. it doesn’t really matter what you think of boston’s offer. the TWINS like it enough to have told the yankees, “put hughes on the table or we’re taking boston’s offer.” it’s that simple. your opinion doesn’t mean a thing here. whether you like boston’s offer or not is moot. the twins like it enough to think it trumps anything the yankees can do that doesn’t include hughes. period.

    2. LC – i don’t think hughes is bad. but i think those clamoring for the yankees to pass up the best pitcher in baseball to hold on to a completely unproven, injury-prone 21 year old whose stock has dropped with scouts are being idiotic, at best.

  585. Greg C November 29th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    Hey Bobcat, what do you make of this?

  586. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 29th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    ^^^ (Ervin) Santana was never a # 1 overall SP prospect like Hughes

  587. migames November 29th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    beckett was the fool who signed that contract. let him live with it

  588. Steve Howe You Doin November 29th, 2007 at 11:55 pm

    Phil – check this analysis of the package supposedly offered by the Sox. I wouldn’t call this group “not very good”…

    RHP Jon Lester
    Do not underestimate the value of this guy. He’s in the same league as Ian Kennedy, and you can very easily argue that he’s better. Just two years ago, Lester was considered a brighter Red Sox prospect than Jonathan Papelbon. He was more or less on par with Phil Hughes, with two of the four writers in the 2006 Prospect Handbook ranking Lester ahead of Hughes. The other two, obviously, had Hughes higher. Now 23 years old, Lester pitched well this season after coming back from cancer and profiles as a potential front-of-the-rotation starter. He is a very, very good pitching prospect.
    Comparable Yankees prospect: Lester is probably somewhere between Hughes and Kennedy. It would certainly take one of those two to match this level of pitching prospect. My guess is that Hughes would have to be considered an upgrade, but Lester vs. Kennedy would be more a matter of personal preference. To be honest, I would prefer Lester.

    CF Coco Crisp
    Obviously being included to replace Torii Hunter as the Twins center fielder, Crisp is extremely expendable in Boston because of Jacoby Ellsbury. Crisp isn’t fancy, but he isn’t terrible either. He has good speed and he’s always been a solid — but not spectacular — hitter, which frankly isn’t a huge issue for the Twins now that they’ve added Delmon Young’s bat to the lineup. Crisp can hit at the top of the lineup as a significant upgrade over whoever is in that spot right now. Jason Tyner?
    Comparable Yankees prospect: The closest the Yankees come, obviously, is Melky Cabrera. Crisp has a higher career batting average and slugging percentage with significanly more stolen bases, but Cabrera is five years younger. This year the two played in roughly the same number of games and had similar stats: Crisp scored more runs, stole more bases and had a better on-base percentage; Cabrera hit two more home runs and hit for a slightly better average. Personally, I think Crisp is the better of the two players, but you can make a case the other way.

    SS Jed Lowrie
    Outstanding this season, Lowrie hit for average with more than a little pop in Double-A and Triple-A this season. At Double-A, where he spent most of the year, he had more walks than strikeouts while also hitting 31 doubles in 93 games. Defense is, by accounts I’ve read — I saw him but don’t remember — at least serviceable. Especially if he’s used primarily at second base rather than shortstop. He’s 23 years old, a former first-round pick and he plays a position where the Twins are pretty thin after trading Jason Bartlett.
    Comparable Yankees prospect: The Yankees don’t really have an infielder similar to Lowrie, but Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata are similar-level prospects. Baseball Prospectus ranked Lowrie as a four-star prospect, same as both Jackson and Tabata. Personally, I’d put Jackson and Tabata ahead of Lowrie, but the Twins might prefer an infielder, especially with Delmon Young and Jason Kubel already in the outfield. Either way, it would take Tabata or Jackson to match Lowrie as a third part of this deal.

    RHP Michael Bowden
    The fourth name in the Boston package was a supplemental first-round pick in 2005 and he entered this season as the Red Sox No. 4 prospect according to Baseball America. Outstanding in Class A to start the season, Bowden quickly moved to Double-A where he was somewhere between solid and very good. Baseball Prospectus pegged him as a three-star prospect and touted him as a future No. 3 or 4 starter.
    Comparable Yankees prospect: Hard to say. According to the Prospectus three-star ranking, Bowden would be somewhere around Dellin Betances or Andrew Brackman, but those are bad comparisons because of age and experience. Bowden’s probably not as good as Alan Horne but better than Jeff Marquez. Maybe Humberto Sanchez is a solid comparison. Someone close to that level, anyway.

  589. berra8 November 29th, 2007 at 11:56 pm

    Mike,

    I know a lot about the Yankees’ farm system. I love it. I think it has more pitching depth than any sytem in the majors. I’m just telling you what I’m getting from the news stories, and what Bobcat is saying as well.

  590. Mike November 29th, 2007 at 11:58 pm

    Kasey,

    How do you know the Twins said that to the Yankees? Because some writer in Minnesota and Boston said so? Come on man, don’t think that negotiations are actually like the press makes them out to be. The Twins offer does not top what the Yankees can offer, even without Hughes. So if the Twins even did say that, it’s just an attempt to squeeze Hughes out of the Yankees. Phil shouldn’t go anywhere, and Johan will probably still end up in Pinstripes. You play the panicking Yankee fan very well tho.

  591. Taylor November 29th, 2007 at 11:58 pm

    Kasey, you have no idea if the Twins have said that. Last report we heard is the Twins don’t like Crisp’s salary and don’t want him.

  592. Phil November 29th, 2007 at 11:59 pm

    kasey,

    I didn’t know you owned the Twins.

  593. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:00 am

    Chad Jennings = crackhead?

    If the Twins demand Hughes, don’t trade him for the 200 million dollar man. Use him to get Bedard or Kazmir. Let the Twins swallow that bucket of slop from the Sox and let the Sox bloat their payroll over the max.

  594. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:04 am

    Brandon-

    It’s been discussed a zillion times, Bedard & Kazmir will never be traded to the Yankees, if you respect SJ44′s opinion you will understand that. I don’t get why you are so hung up on that. If the Red Sox wouldn’t deal Beckett to the Yankees, why would another team in their own division do the same, I mean trade your best pitcher to a division rival, it makes zero sense.

  595. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 12:05 am

    Kasey is really a Red Sox mole

  596. PK November 30th, 2007 at 12:05 am

    Kasey,

    Get the hell off your high horse. You are in absolutely no position to tell someone their opinion is wrong. Stop pretending as if you have some inside source that is telling you what the twins are thinking of various offers.

    You are a fan, just like the rest of us. Your opinion is no more valid than that of anyone else. In fact, I guarantee that multiple people think you are a moron with some of the stuff you say.

  597. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:05 am

    everything that’s been reported today, by bobcat and otherwise, suggests that the twins will take boston’s offer if the yankees keep hughes off the table. you really just have to read.

  598. mel November 30th, 2007 at 12:05 am

    If that’s all the Sox are willing to give up, then Minny will “appear” to be forced to take what the Yankees are offering. The Twins need to look like they are doing their due diligence because they know that one team is the perfect trade partner to satisfy the needs and desires of the Twins, Yankees, and Johan himself.

  599. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:07 am

    PK,

    you’re right. you hughes supporters should just call up the twins front office and let them know how laughable that red sox offer is. because, y’know, fans opinions do matter in this situation, right?

    fact is, your opinion, my opinion, they don’t matter here. the twins like the sox offer enough to tell the yankees it’s hughes or nothing.

    i’m not saying the guy’s opinion is generally invalid, but his assessment of the red sox offer, in this case, means nothing. if the twins like it, and they do, then that’s that.

    but, by all means, keep berating me. it’s a better use of your time then actually reading the available information, apparently.

  600. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:09 am

    My source says:

    Kennedy, Cabrera, Tabata plus 1 lower level prospect is the offer. That’s a significant payroll swing if you add the cost of two free agent outfielders to Johan Santana.

    Santana = 25 million per season/compared to Kennedy

    Cost of a free agent centerfielder of Melky’s caliber = 10 mil per season (let’s say Gary Matthews)

    Cost of a free agent right fielder = 15 mil (let’s say Bobby Abreu)

    25 + 10 + 15 = 50 million dollar cost value.

    From a financial standpoint, the trade stinks.

  601. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:09 am

    “hughes may not be a “bust” but johan santana comes along once in a generation. the absolute BEST hughes could do in his career would be to be the pitcher santana ALREADY is.”

    right, but we’re not trading for Santana 5 years ago.

    even if Hughes’ career winds up far behind santana’s, that doesn’t mean Hughes’ age 22-28 seasons can’t compare to Santana’s age 29-35 seasons.

    you guys think it’s a lock that Santana will just being as good as he is forever.

    this is a 7 year contract we are talking about. i would not at all be surprised if Hughes was better than Johan in 3 seasons when he is 24 and Johan is 32.

  602. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:09 am

    PK,

    “Your opinion is no more valid than that of anyone else.”

    that’s an excellent point, except for the fact that i didn’t say my opinion was what mattered. i said the TWINS was.

    outside of that, you’re right on the money. keep trying.

  603. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 12:10 am

    i agree with kasey’s analysis of the situation.

  604. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:11 am

    hmmm,

    i’m not saying santana will be this good forever. but, for the next 4-5 years, he will be better than hughes.

    hell, hughes may not end up being any good. they already know that a down year for santana is better than most pitchers’ best years.

  605. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:13 am

    Nothing Bobcat has written would imply that the Yanks can’t get Santana without using Hughes.

  606. Matt November 30th, 2007 at 12:14 am

    NO deal is going to happen I am convinced…Even if the Yankees threw in Hughes I still don’t think they’d be giving enough for Santana…

    My minimum deal from the Yankees would be Hughes, Kennedy and Melky…I think we could even get more too…

    Minimum for Boston is Bucholtz AND Ellsbury…

    These deals are not even close…Once one of Boston or New York offers one of the big guys (Cano, Hughes, Bucholtz or Ellsbury) the bidding will go out of control…Once one team adds a big guy the other team will have to counter it by matching with a big guy…It will continue like that until a appropriate deal is done…

    If no deal gets done with Red Sox or Yankees, we’ll just keep him with Santana…

    I bet once Winter Meetings are coming the teams will start offering real deals…

    You guys can flame me, but I will be proven right eventually…These deals don’t touch Santana…we’re just playing games right now…

  607. VOIII November 30th, 2007 at 12:14 am

    I have been following the Yankees for 30 plus years, and during those years I can count on one hand the prospects that the Yankees had that were as special as Hughes. This BS that Bucholz is ahead of him is ridiculous. Hughes had an injury that was a temporary setback and will have no impact on his future. Bucholz wasn’t even better than Kennedy at the same level of minor league ball and now he’s better than Hughes. Because he throws a no-hitter? There have been a number of mediocre pitchers who have thrown no-hitters in the rookie seasons.
    Pitcher, team Yrs. W L
    ’01 Earl Moore, Indians 14 161 153
    ’07 Nick Maddox, Pirates 4 43 20
    ’12 Jeff Tesreau, Giants 7 119 72
    ’22 C. Robertson, W. Sox* 8 49 80
    ’34 Paul Dean, Cardinals 9 50 34
    ’35 Vern Kennedy, W. Sox 12 104 132
    ’47 B. McCahan, Athletics 4 16 14
    ’53 B. Holloman, Browns 1 3 7
    ’55 Sam Jones, Cubs 12 102 101
    ’62 Bo Belinsky, Angels 8 28 51
    ’67 Don Wilson, Astros 9 104 92
    ’70 Vida Blue, Athletics 17 209 161
    ’72 Burt Hooton, Cubs 15 151 136
    ’73 Jim Bibby, Rangers 12 111 101
    ’73 Steve Busby, Royals 8 70 54
    ’83 M. Warren, Athletics
    How many of them are in the HOF? Only 1 even reached the 200 win platau.

    I am not saying Bucholz will flop but let’s not enshrine him.

    How many of the Yankee type “A” prospects have flopped lately? Other than Brien Taylor (Injury) and Rueben Rivera (headcase) I can’t recall any.

    What if we rushed to judgement on a 21 year old kid named Derek Jeter? ditto for Posada, Petitte, Mariano…When you have a kid this special you DO NOT give him up for ANYONE.

    I know he’s only potential right now, but who isn’t? No-one can predict what even the mighty Johan will do next season. What if he tears his rotator cuff 2 starts into the season? The yankees will have given up their best prospect and a 23 year old outfielder who has hit 297 last season after slumping for 1/2 of it. Plus they will have to include at least one more very highly rated kid. This would undo all of Cash’s outstanding work over the last couple of years.
    This is not Sam Millitello we’re giving up here, Hell it’s not even Eric Milton. This kid in 2 years stand a better than even chance to be Becket… I know even Stick Michael said he would consider trading Hughes for Johan, and I
    value his opininion more than anyone else’s. However I just
    think the Yankees will Rue the day they let Hughes pitch for someone else.

  608. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:15 am

    SJ says the Orioles or Rays wouldn’t deal Bedard or Kazmir to the Yankees but the Yankees haven’t exactly offered Phil Hughes to either of those teams. Don’t you think they might break policy to make that kind of a deal, especially the Rays with Kazmir just 2 years from freedom.

    Like I said, if the Yankees are forced to put Hughes on the table in any deal, the Rays should be the trade partner sitting on the other end.

  609. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:16 am

    phil,

    this is from bobcat’s most recent post:

    “2) The Yankees are digging their heels regarding Hughes and getting very close to letting the Red Sox try to negotiate with Santana.”

    you don’t really have to read between the lines much to figure out what that means. if they’re “digging in their heels” on hughes, that means the twinkies are pushing for hughes. likewise, if they’re “close to letting the red sox negotiate with santana” that means the twins are probably putting the yankees in a position where, if hughes isn’t on the table, they’ll allow the red sox the opportunity to negotiate with santana.

    1 + 1 = 2. ain’t rocket science.

  610. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 am

    People who are panicking now saying that the Twins have decided to take the Red Sox package if the yankees don’t throw in hughes don’t understand how negotiations work.

    Why do you think there were so many leaked stories about the red sox package – there were stories all around the country.

    Clearly these were absolutely leaks. How else could an otherwise secretive process become known so widely? This was done intentinally?

    Why – to get the yankees to do what people on this board are doing. To think of my goodness what are we going to do if the sox get santana – let’s give minnesota what they want.

    This was predictable. You don’t negotiate from panic – that’s the way to get fleeced.

    If the twins weren’t interested in the yankee’s package they wouldn’t have bothered with all these leaks – they would have just taken the red sox package and been done with it.

    These are just tactics. That’s it. If they loved Lester/ Crisp/ Bowden and Lowrie – they would not have leaked the story so widely.

    People saying that we have to just give away phil hughe just becasue the twins demand him are missing the issue – if you give up more than is necessary you’re making a bad deal.

    The yankees clearly feel they’ve made a fair offer.

    The real problem with the Sox deal is crisp – that is just not the type of player that the twins have any interest in. He’s not only expensive but isn’t going to be under control for 6 more years like melky. In a couple of years he’s gone. They’ll get nothing for him independently in a trade

  611. migames November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 am

    if no deal gets done, the twins lose, 2 draft pics is not better than the combos of ipk/melky/coco/lester and added minor leaguers.

    everyone knows this. the twins shouldnt hold on to johan

  612. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 am

    “You guys can flame me, but I will be proven right eventually…These deals don’t touch Santana…we’re just playing games right now…”

    i think you are going to wind up disappointed.

    sorry.

    the offers might come up slightly, but if santana gets traded, these will be the type of packages.

    no way do the yankees and sox get into a bidding war with their blue chippers. if the yankees up their offer, the Sox will walk away.

    the extension is simply too much money to get the talent that Twins fans think they are going to get.

    there are going to be a lot of disappointed Twins fans.

    take it up with your cheapskate owner.

  613. Steve Howe You Doin November 30th, 2007 at 12:18 am

    Wangkee – $50 million is a bit steep, especially considering that Damon would stopgap CF for 1 year only, most likely, with Jackson taking over in 2009.

    Mathews is a bad example – you want to trade more prospects to LAA for that piece of crap? Let Damin play and have Gardner around if someone goes down (Matsui). Not a pretty replacement, but it’ll do.

    Remember we have $80 million coming off after 2008, so the addition of Santana’s $20+ would not hurt – it would only hurt in 2008.

  614. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:18 am

    kasey,

    I think Boston will blink if that’s the case. They’re only in this to run up our price.

  615. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:20 am

    if, indeed the Twins have decided to deal Santana before Nathan, that would suggest the market they anticipated for Santana never emerged…

  616. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:20 am

    the idea that the yankees can just go get haren, kazmir or bedard if they lose out on santana is laughable at best. for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that – as noted above – the rays and orioles aren’t dying to deal with the yankees. for haren, you’ve got to give up more talent than you would to get santana. so, if you’re not comfortable giving up hughes for santana, what are you going to do when beane asks for hughes and cano for haren?

    santana is the best pitcher in baseball and giving up hughes, cabrera, etc to get him is fair. if the yankees don’t do it, they’ll be sorry and most of you will be groaning about it in hindsight.

  617. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:22 am

    Why would the yankees be willing to let Boston negotiate with Santana?

    Are the yankees just stupid?

    Or maybe they are confident that:

    1. Santana doesn’t want to play there

    or

    2. Boston doesn’t want to pay him

    Some people here think that the people running the yankees are just stupid and can’t see what they see.

    It’s not that complicated. Seriously – Cash, Stick Michael, the Steinbrenners – do people just think they have no idea what they’re doing? That they don’t know what to do if they suspect a bluff?

  618. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:22 am

    Steve Howe You Doin:

    Mathews is a good example of the going market rate for centerfielders. Tori Hunter hit .287 last year and will earn nearly twice as much. Melky can become better than Mathews and he costs nothing. 10 mil was fair IMHO.

    If you keep Melky and Tabata, you stay off the free agent market and save about 25 mil. If you stick with Kennedy over Hughes you save another 25 mil.

    The amount of money lost makes me want to vomit, not to mention the fact that we’re investing a ton of resources into 1 single player. If he breaks, there’s no balance to support the overall team.

    If my source is correct, I hate the offer and I hope the Twins trade Santana to Boston.

  619. Matt November 30th, 2007 at 12:23 am

    Think about this…If Matt Garza can get Delmon Young…THE best hitting prospect in the league…How do you think Santana could not get something better…Straight up it doesn’t make any sense…

    This is going to be a month long process I can promise you that…The teams interested in Santana are slowly going to climb the price up…

    I think right now Boston and Yankees are working together to play hard ball, because both teams want Santana and they know the Twins are going to drive the price up from each other…So right now they are not adding any Big boys into the deal, but they will…

  620. Steve Howe You Doin November 30th, 2007 at 12:23 am

    Great point, hmmm – the extension is really key, here. Yanks should not offer beyond IPK, Melky and Tabata. Hold fast.

    To replace Hughes instead of IPK or add an arm like Horne is too much for a team that has to spend $25 per to keep Santana.

    My guess is that guys like Santana command so much in dollars that a team can ill afford to spend that horde and give up so many promising players in addition.

  621. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:23 am

    boston’s in this to run up the price, sure, but they’re also in it to see if they can get the best pitcher in the game and a damn-near guaranteed playoff spot for the next five years at their asking price. the way it looks right now, they may be able to.

    and CB, read what bobcat wrote. the yankees aren’t budging on hughes and are close to allowing the red sox to negotiate with santana. that means the twins are, in fact, telling the yankees it’s hughes or no thanks. again, sometimes it’s complicated, but 1+1=2.

  622. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2007 at 12:24 am

    I’m no blog GM, or insider, and I’m not as eloquent as some of the people who post here…but it seems to me that (if we are to believe what has been posted) that it has come down to who is really bluffing who –
    1. Are the Twins bluffing that they have other options (ie, the Red Sox) for a Santana trade partner? or
    2. Are are the Yankees bluffing that they will not trade Hughes? The other names – Melky, Tabata, Jackson, whomever – pale by comparison; Hughes is the important name here, it seems; pitching really is the coin of the realm.

    As a Yankee fan, I hope that Cash/Hank have whatever inside information that Santana will only approve a trade to NY, or that Boston will not pay him what he wants, so that we wind up with him.

    The only other option is that you hope Santana plays out his option and goes FA after 2008, when it’s open season and only costs the Yanks money.

  623. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:24 am

    just because Santana has a 6.89 career ERA at Fenway doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to play there or the Red Sox don’t want to pay him 25M for 6 or 7 years to pitch there:)

  624. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:24 am

    I don’t buy into the Rays or O’s dealing their best pitcher to a division rival, unless they were absolutely blown away, which wouldn’t happen. No way would they deal Kazmir or Bedard straight up for Hughes either.

  625. Steve Howe You Doin November 30th, 2007 at 12:25 am

    Wangkee – what’s your source telling you is the offer?

  626. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:25 am

    Kasey:

    So are the Rays going to re-sign Kazmir? Didn’t think so.

    Are they going to accept a trade for a pitching prospect inferior to fill Hughes just because they don’t want to trade with the Yankees? Get real. If your the Rays you aim for maximum value and you don’t play reindeer games with your roster.

  627. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:28 am

    Matt,

    The yankees gave kennedy a $2.25 million dollar bonus. They drafted him at #21. That was a record deal.

    If santana leaves he will be signed by a top flight team – the twins will get a pick around 25-30. To get a decent player there or in the supplemental you’ll have to hope a player falls (like Kennedy) and pay way over slot (like the yankees did with kennedy).

    Your owner will never do that. The twins will use those picks to get more ben reveres and stick exactly to slot.

    You take Kennedy and tabata – you save on kennedy’s signing bonus and tabata’s international signing fee – both costs the twins will never shell out on their own. They are getting several million dollars out of this deal in addition to the talent.

    Good luck with those draft picks. I’m sure the twins will get a gem paying slot with their two picks for santana.

  628. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:29 am

    “Some people here think that the people running the yankees are just stupid and can’t see what they see.”

    you’re right. it’s not like this is the same braintrust that insulted a beloved yankees icon with a contract offer, alienating a portion of their fanbase, then put their tail between their legs and coughed up 300 million to a-rod after he’d publicly declined an extension during game four, then coughed up a boatload of cash to two players who are 36 and 38 respectively – one of whom had no reported interest from any other team – in order to, partially, save face. this isn’t the same braintrust whose knee-jerk reaction to the dice-k signing was to go after a guy who was projected to be a number 5 starter AT BEST in the majors and toss away 40+ million in doing so. this isn’t the same braintrust who’s hoping that, after an entire career of inconsistency and disappointment (including the last two seasons in pinstripes), THIS is the year that kyle farnsworth turns it around and becomes the bridge to that 38-year-old closer they bid against themselves to keep.

    should i go on or do you get the point?

  629. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:29 am

    My source says:

    Kennedy, Cabrera, Tabata plus 1 lower level prospect is the offer.

    My source communicates casually with a top Yankees scout and he also knows two former Yankees in the loop but most of his info. comes through the scout. The scout wouldn’t reveal any information detrimental to the team.

  630. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:29 am

    “the idea that the yankees can just go get haren, kazmir or bedard if they lose out on santana is laughable at best.”

    we agree on this much at least.

    haren maybe, but it will be costly.

    but Bedard or Kazmir? not going to happen. not within the division.

    not a chance.

  631. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:30 am

    “the idea that the yankees can just go get haren, kazmir or bedard if they lose out on santana is laughable at best.”

    we agree on this much at least.

    haren maybe, but it will be costly.

    but Bedard or Kazmir? not going to happen. not within the division.

    not a chance.

  632. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:30 am

    “Kasey:
    So are the Rays going to re-sign Kazmir? Didn’t think so.”

    um, that’s two years away. what does not getting santana THIS year have to do with kazmir. the rays don’t have to deal him right now.

  633. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:30 am

    Despite what Jon Heyman said, the Boston Globe’s Nick Cafardo seems to think the Red Sox are still in the lead for Santana. It would be the package named below by Olney. Nothing is done yet, as Santana’s agent hasn’t been approached about an extension. Meanwhile Cafardo indicates that the Yankees may part with Robinson Cano after all. One other note: Peter Gammons suggests that the Sox would have to redo Josh Beckett’s reasonable deal if they acquire Santana and give him $20MM+.

  634. CaptainsCorner November 30th, 2007 at 12:31 am

    You can say you don’t want to trade Hughes and that is fine. But lets look at it this way, the Yanks are told include Hughes or he goes else where..they dont include him and he signs an extension with another team. Ok so he is off the table. Then next year the “aces” available are Peavy, Sabathia, Bedard. Ok now lets say Sabathia stays with the Indians, Peavy goes else where and Bedard doesnt want to come here anyway. Now who is the next available ace on the free agent market?? You could be talking another 4 years before the Yanks have the chance to get a REAL ace. Do you really want to go another possible 4 years seeing Wang pitch game 1 of a playoff series?? I definitely do not. I understand this is too far ahead to think but if Hughes is the cost of an ace then if I was Cash I would do it. Don’t get cheap now with an ace they wasted over $200m on cr.ap awful pitchers this is the pitcher to spend it on. Why give Arod $270 if you have no one to pitch game 1 of the playoffs??!! You cant let Hughes stand in the way of that, you want an ace you have to give up what it takes…

  635. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    If the Rays can’t re-sign Kazmir, they are going to trade him to the Yankees? Why would they do that, are they the only team with resources to acquire him? I just don’t get that logic.

  636. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    Kasey:

    If you think for one NY second that the New York Yankees don’t have a contingency plan for losing the Johan Santana sweepstakes, you’re out of your mind. The Yankees are holding a full deck of cards and got prospects up the wazoo.

  637. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    “Think about this…If Matt Garza can get Delmon Young…THE best hitting prospect in the league”

    he wasn’t even the best prospect in his own outfield.

  638. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    thas from mlbtraderumors.com: Notice that little part about cano after we learn that this offer may not cut it and the sux may have an advantage – i think the yanks would rather throw in cano than hughes

    I say the yanks will trade cano over hughes in the end. I think if push comes to shove and Johan will go to the sux if the yanks dont improve their offer, I believe they throw in cano instead of IPK rather than hughes. This is all speculation. I think IPK and melky wont get it done. If the sux dont improve their deal by adding ellsbury instead of crisp or buckholz, i think the angels or dodgers or some other team will come along an offer a really nice deals. Because truth be told the yankee offer on the table for santana is mediocre and even tho sites are saying the twins like the sux deal, i think that offer is even worse. IPK and Lester are two relatively high cieling prospects. But they are being compared to the likes of Hughes, Chamberlain, Buckholz and Ellsbury and they are considered worse than all four of them. I believe someone improves their offer and the twins make the trade. I just hope its the yanks and Im praying its not hughes but cano. If Hughes gets traded and become the ace of the minnesota staff we will all feel miserable. But cano will do the same thing he did on the yanks – with less rbis and run and prolly less walks with the weaker supporting cast. He really wont do anything that surprising so I hope it is cano that goes so we dont have to regret the deal.

  639. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    The Big Picture: Rankings Combined With Non-Rookies Under 25 (As Of Opening Day 2008)

    1. Philip Hughes, RHP
    2. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
    3. Ian Kennedy, RHP
    4. Austin Jackson, OF
    5. Jose Tabata, OF
    6. Alan Horne, RHP
    7. Dellin Betances, RHP
    8. Jesus Montero, C
    9. Melky Cabrera, OF
    10. Andrew Brackman, RHP

    That’s right, kids. Phil Hughes is the best pitching prospect we have.

  640. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:34 am

    Buddy:

    Because the Rays couldn’t get a better prospect than Hughes or Chamberlain for Kazmir, that’s why. There’s a backup plan for Santana so if the Sox win this Johan sweepstakes it’s not the end of the world. The Yankees front office isn’t just going to pack it in. The minors are so overstocked it’s ridiculous.

  641. hmmm November 30th, 2007 at 12:34 am

    “How do you think Santana could not get something better…Straight up it doesn’t make any sense…”

    also, it seems like you don’t understand the very basic concept of service time.

    Santana is one year from FA.

    Garza is 4-5 years away.

    it’s kindof important.

  642. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:34 am

    Kasey,

    You’re missing the point with what bobcat said.

    He said not only are the yankees thinking about letting the red sox negotiate they are also thinking about lowering their office.

    Explain those two thing – they’ll let the red sox negotiate and they are going to lower they’re office.

    Now honestly, tell me why they would do that? There are only two possiblities:

    1. The yankee front office is stupid

    2. The yankees are calling the Twins bluff

    You only lower an offer in a negotiation if you know that you have tremendous leverage and that the other party is being recalicitrant. Its’ essentially a way of putting the other party in their place.

    You don’t do that if you think disaster is emminent.

    Who knows what’s going to happen here – the sox might get santana. I don’t think that’s likely right now.

    And one thing is for certain -

    You panic in a negotiation you get fleeced. And in any important negotiation parties try to get each other to panic.

  643. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:34 am

    I think Horne is the 4th player in the deal for Johan in addition to Melky, Kennedy & Tabata.

  644. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:35 am

    “If you think for one NY second that the New York Yankees don’t have a contingency plan for losing the Johan Santana sweepstakes, you’re out of your mind.”

    um, WHO ELSE IS AVAILABLE?

    they’re “contingency plan” is wang, chamberlain, hughes, kennedy and hope to god pettitte decides to come back.

    you people think cashman can just pick up a phone and get haren, bedard or kazmir if he loses out on santana? seriously?

  645. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:36 am

    “Buddy:
    Because the Rays couldn’t get a better prospect than Hughes or Chamberlain for Kazmir, that’s why”

    wait, trading hughes for santana is stupid, but trading hughes for kazmir makes sense?!

    mother of god.

  646. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 12:36 am

    I’d rather give up Cano than Hughes.

  647. hughesian bias November 30th, 2007 at 12:37 am

    you know, kasey, for a yankees fan, all you’ve done is talk trash about the team… i’m pretty sure your allegiance is elsewhere (you’re not fooling anyone).

  648. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:38 am

    “1. The yankee front office is stupid
    2. The yankees are calling the Twins bluff”

    given what we’ve seen from this front office recently, #1 is a more bankable option.

  649. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:38 am

    The Yankees should do their best to give up as little as possible. But if push comes to shove and they let the Red Sox get Santana because they refuse to give up Hughes, I will be very very displeased.

    Santana > Hughes/Melky/insert B-level prospect here

  650. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:38 am

    Master-

    Agreed that the Yankees will work other angles, ie: Haren, in the event the Johan deal falters. Bedard & Kazmir will not become Yankees via the Rays & O’s.

  651. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:39 am

    “you know, kasey, for a yankees fan, all you’ve done is talk trash about the team… i’m pretty sure your allegiance is elsewhere (you’re not fooling anyone).”

    yep. i’m secretly a red sox fan. because that’s what people do. PRETEND to be fans of their rival.

    i’m secretly a red sox fan who’s furious that the red sox may wind up getting the best pitcher in baseball.

    good work, sherlock.

  652. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:39 am

    Joba is the Yankees best pitching prospect, not Hughes.

  653. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am

    Haren is going to cost a hell of a lot more than he’s worth. Not even close to Santana’s league.

  654. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am

    Trading Hughes for Kazmir instead of Santana makes more sense because Santana owns 2 CY awards and will likely be overpaid. Kazmir’s just as capable of shutting down an opponent in Games 1 and 5 of a short series. He led the AL in K’s and he’s starting to come into his own. He’s much younger than Santana and doesn’t carry the same inflated value because of his brandname.

  655. Matt November 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am

    CB-

    Your forgeting something…We would also get a year of Santana pitching…

    So look at the Twins off-season…We’re replacing Matt Garza with Fransisco Liriano…Our young rotation guys all have good playing time under their belt…We’re subtracting Carlos Silva (no real loss there)…We’ve replace Torii Hunter with Delmon Young, I’d say that’s an even switch (Delmon is by far the better hitter which is addressing our needs)…We got a better hitting SS…and this is just the beginning of the off-season, we’re still going to be making tons of trades with Nathan and possibly others…It’s not like the Twins are a horrible team that’s really far from contending, we had a horrible year in 2007, but we have some talented players…

    We don’t have that much pressure to deal Santana…It’s not like a deal him in NOVEMBER or don’t deal him at all…Oh yes, don’t forget it is only November plenty of time…Yankee fans act like you are doing us a favor for trading for Santana…Wake up…

  656. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am

    i love that wanting the yankees to get johan santana is now considered “talking trash about the team.”

    just when i think the idiot barometer here is as high as it can be, somebody comes along and blows it out of the water.

  657. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am

    Kasey, you really need to chill pal. The Twins are in no rush to make a deal. Why would they take an offer that doesn’t blow anyone away before the Winter Meetings? This is all just leaked info to get teams to up their offers. If the Twins were to accept the Red Sox offer right now, they’d be the dumbest organization and baseball, and we all know that’s not the case.

    Trading for the best pitcher in the game will take time and patience. Don’t think that this is going to be done before December even begins. I mean you’re telling me that Boston really wants Johan but they won’t give up Jacoby Ellsbury for him? He of the .800 OPS and little power? Come on, if this really was the case, they would deal Jacoby and keep Crisp. It wouldn’t even be close. Santana + Crisp is a better combo to have than Ellsbury and no Santana.

  658. CaptainsCorner November 30th, 2007 at 12:41 am

    I would rather put Cano in the deal over Hughes if that can get the deal done. It is much easier to get a 2nd baseman then good young pitchers. I don’t think the Twins would want Cano because he is going to make money soon.

  659. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:41 am

    Master wangkee the info ur source is giving you is all of the internet – its posted in almost every site ur not telling anyone anything they dont already know. And dont think the yanks are planning some sort of brilliant scheme if they cant get johan – if the sux get him we may go after haren otherwise we are screwed. Particular if pettitte doesnt come back. Did the yanks have a brilliant plan after not getting dice k , they begged Clemens to come back and he went 6 and 6 with a crappy era – some plan! We need santana and we cannot let the sox get him. Our rotation would be ridiculous and theres would be even better. And they just won the world series and we were knocked out in the first round. Santana is a number one priority and we should do all we can to get him.

  660. VOIII November 30th, 2007 at 12:42 am

    Kasey
    You are really reaching with the Yankee Braintrust bashing. Yeah A-Rod got his 300 million but it was he who came crawling back to the Yankees. The YBT stared down the Mighty Boras and he blinked first. Let’s not even start rehashing the whole Torre thing , Mr. Class and Dignity sure looked good stealing Grady Little’s Job and taking a huge pay-cut while doing so, didn’t he?
    The Yankees got a better manager for 1/2 the price. Take note of how Girardi has already been to the Yankees Dominican complex and has been very involved with the minor leaguers since he signed on. Torre NEVER did what Girardi’s doing right now and he was paid a lot more money for his services.
    Also I wouldn’t be to quick to flush Igawa down the toilet yet, He does have trade value and may be a nice lefty for the Bull pen.

  661. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") November 30th, 2007 at 12:42 am

    they’re not trading Cano you don’t trade a 24 yr. old 2B who has the HOF already insight he can hit .330 and 25-30 HRS 100+ RBIs can kill lefties and righties and will learn more under Girardi, just look how Miguel Cabrera improved under Girardi. Jesus have patience people

  662. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:42 am

    “Trading Hughes for Kazmir instead of Santana makes more sense because Santana owns 2 CY awards and will likely be overpaid.”

    um, if you disregard the fact that santana’s the best pitcher in the game and kazmir has control problems, along with a high risk of injury, then this comment makes plenty of sense.

  663. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:42 am

    I would put Cano in over Hughes too but then Melky and Tabata get removed from the deal. Kennedy + Cano.

  664. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    You guys need to understand. There is no contingency plan. The Yankees will either give up Hughes or decide the Twins want to much. That’s it.

    The Twins have decided to shop the best pitcher in baseball and the Yankees have the guys to get it done. The contingency plan for f’ing that up is allowing the red sox to secure the best pitcher in baseball. good contingency plan. even if the yankees get a bedard or kazmir (yeah right), they STILL wouldn’t be as good as the red sox.

    the most sickening part about this whole thing is that the red sox aren’t even giving up any guys they need — they are all expendable. the yankees don’t have the luxury to do the same.

    i’ll still enjoy my baseball season next year rooting for the yankees, but you can forget winning the world series for the next few years.

  665. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    Kasey

    “um, if you disregard the fact that santana’s the best pitcher in the game and kazmir has control problems, along with a high risk of injury, then this comment makes plenty of sense.”

    And the Rays would refuse to deal with the Yankees because?????

  666. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    “1. The yankee front office is stupid
    2. The yankees are calling the Twins bluff”

    given what we’ve seen from this front office recently, #1 is a more bankable option.

    That’s what’s so amazing about this board – people seriously think they are smarter than the people running the team.

    All these conversations about Cano right now are hilarious. People were screaming bloody murder the first half of the season saying the yankees were idiots for not seeing that they had to trade cano because he was a dog and would never learn plate discipline.

    I remember a lot of regular on this blog saying that. Now- cano is an untouchable for the best pitcher in baseball?

  667. hughesian bias November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    okay, kazmir isn’t as accomplished as Johan is, YET, but he’s 24, he’s got the makings of an ace, he OWNS the Red Sox every time, he’s three years away from free agency. what’s not to love? also, the rays have plenty of position players, but they’re in need of pitching (starters and bullpen) which the yankees have pleeenty of. no ajax or tabata needed to make this one happen.

    yea, i’d say kazmir is better to trade for than santana.

  668. mel November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    B,

    That list can’t be right. The experts here say that Joba is better than Hughes.

  669. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    “You are really reaching with the Yankee Braintrust bashing. Yeah A-Rod got his 300 million but it was he who came crawling back to the Yankees. The YBT stared down the Mighty Boras and he blinked first. ”

    um, a-rod and boras got 300 million out of a team that was, in retrospect, pretty much bidding against itself. who wins that one?

    as for igawa having value as a reliever, guys who can’t throw strikes don’t work out of the bullpen.

  670. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    I actually agree with kasey to an extent. The Sox have won 2 world series in 4 years. The Yankees havent won since 2000. The best pitcher in the universe is up for grabs. I would rather overpay by a little (if you even consider Hughes overpaying) then risk the Sox getting him.

    I think Hughes at best will be John Smoltz. No doubt that would be fantastic. But you dont keep a maybe when you can get a sure thing.

  671. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:44 am

    Joba better than Hughes? How bout no.

    People like to base their judgment of players on 2 months, and that is why they are not GMs.

  672. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:45 am

    Berra:

    No contingency plan for the New York Yankees? I think Brian Cashman’s a better chess player than we can possibly imagine.

  673. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:45 am

    In one way, if the Twins keep Johan for one more year & he truly wants to be a Yankee, they get him as a FA. Keeping him away from the Red Sox w/o acquiring him may not be so bad.

  674. Clare November 30th, 2007 at 12:45 am

    Kasey,

    No one said you’re talking trash for wanting Santana. Your trash talking was the stuff about how the front office is stupid.

    You’re obviously entitled to your opinions, but I for one would appreciate them a lot more if you toned down the rhetoric about other posters.

  675. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:45 am

    Mike:

    Agreed. Hughes more valuable than Joba. Period.

  676. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:46 am

    Buddy, that’s the best thing that could happen… I just cant see how the Twins would keep him unless they thought they might sign him. They’d have to be crazy to keep him through 2008.

  677. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 12:46 am

    There is not contingency plan for the best pitcher in baseball. Sorry.

  678. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:47 am

    “And the Rays would refuse to deal with the Yankees because?????”

    because of that thing where they play in the same division?

    but that doesn’t address the control problems or the injury that’s right around the corner. have you followed kazmir at all? he’s surgery waiting to happen.

    i can KIND of understand not wanting to trade hughes for santana because hughes came up through the system and it’s been so long since the yanks had legit prospects. but saying it would be better to trade hughes for kazmir than to do so for santana, i mean, that’s a mind-boggling level of stupidity.

  679. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am

    anyone who thinks that at this moment, hughes is a more valuable prospect than joba, isnt paying attention. nobody knows who will be better…. but you wont find any GMs who would rather have Hughes right now. i doubt there are many scouts either.

  680. migames November 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am

    “There is not contingency plan for the best pitcher in baseball. Sorry.”

    yes there is, develop your 3 best pitching prospects and see what happens.

  681. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am

    Maybe the Twins know the Sox offer isnt as good as the Yankees

    By telling one team that the other team’s offer is good enough, it might drive the offer up. If it doesnt, the Twins go back to Boston and demand Ellsbury. Negotiations are constantly changing. Maybe the Twins want the Yankee offer but want to make sure they put in an effort to squeeze everything from it. Im sorry, the Twins cant be that stupid to think the offers are even remotely even. I understand the articles suggest the Twins will accept the Sox offer, but perhaps the Twins say “accept” but mean “stop trying to call the Yankees bluff”

  682. CaptainsCorner November 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am

    I really hope that Hank does not go to the meeting with Cash. That is the last thing that Cash needs is Hank and his big mouth there. Once he opens his mouth it could be a deal breaker.

  683. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:48 am

    i read troy percival was offered more from the yanks than from the rays but signed with the rays cuz he wanted to be a closer. Riske is signing some ridiculous multi-year 15-20 million dollar deal with the brewers prolly to be their closer – that is absolutely idiotic but whatever. Looks like the yanks will have another yr of disgusting pitching after the sixth and seventh inning GREAT. Cash is a hez on the bullpen- he isnt acquired one useable piece for the pen since he was put in charge – viscainos solid half of a season was the closest thing he got to acquiring a decent bullpen arm. Then, he trades proctor (the only guy in our bullpen that was preforming at that point) for a backup infielder. Cash is worse at forming bullpens than torre was at managing them – put the two together and you get the NY yankees bullpen over the last three yrs. I would have offered percival 2 yrs and 20 million to be our setupman. We needed him, now there is no one left on the FA market. I dunno why cash waits until all the best bullpen arms our signed, then, he goes out and looks and tells us there is no one left on the market. Thas cuz u wait until Feb to look for an arm moron. Maybe we can trade betemit and a couple of prospects for a quality eighth inning guy. Justin Spiers would have been perfect – why CASH why!

  684. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    Kasey:

    I’m through talking to you smarty pants.

  685. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    someone actually said kazmir is better than santana? for real?

  686. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    Boston Dave,

    did they all text you or did you poll them at the GM meetings?

  687. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    “People like to base their judgment of players on 2 months, and that is why they are not GMs.”

    then try basing it on their career numbers at each level of pro ball and see what you come up with.

  688. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    Mike-

    You base Hughes being better than Joba on what?

  689. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:50 am

    Dave, what makes you think percival will do well in the AL East? He is a HUGE injury risk and isnt he around 40? I’d rather have Riske than Percival without a doubt.

  690. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:50 am

    Boston Dave, then they’re wrong as well. A freak hamstring injury doesn’t make Phil any less valuable. Last offseason Phil was the most valuable commodity in baseball. This year he’s not as good as a guy who just last year 29 teams shied away from due to injury?

    Sorry, you’re simply wrong.

  691. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:50 am

    Hughseian Bias,

    “okay, kazmir isn’t as accomplished as Johan is, YET, but he’s 24, he’s got the makings of an ace, he OWNS the Red Sox every time, he’s three years away from free agency. what’s not to love? also, the rays have plenty of position players, but they’re in need of pitching (starters and bullpen) which the yankees have pleeenty of. no ajax or tabata needed to make this one happen.

    yea, i’d say kazmir is better to trade for than santana.”

    I concur.

  692. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:51 am

    “anyone who thinks that at this moment, hughes is a more valuable prospect than joba, isnt paying attention. nobody knows who will be better…. but you wont find any GMs who would rather have Hughes right now. i doubt there are many scouts either.”

    That list was from BP’s Kevin Goldman who has a lot more insight into the actual opinion of scouts and executives than you do. Hughes is the better prospect, he has the better track record, and has shown signs of success as an MLB starter.

  693. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:51 am

    Matt,

    That’s fine – if the twins want to take a shot this year with Santana and Liriano coming back so be it. That’s a reasonable thing to do.

    But what are the implications.

    First – if you keep santana you also keep Joe Nathan. Trading nathan is absolutely not an option.

    So that means not only will you get only draft picks for santana you will also only get draft picks for nathan.

    Spin it how you want it but that will be devastating. Francisco Cordero got $46 million for 4 years and he can’t hold Nathan’s jock. Nathan is fantastic. And costs $6 million

    The Twins will get a ton – a ton for Nathan. You can fleece the a dozen teams if you trade nathan now. But that doesn’t happen if you keep santan.

    So sure – take a shot this year. But then you are telling me the twins will be willing to go into a new publicly funded stadium in 2010 after having lost Torii Hunter, Johan Santana, and Joe Nathan for 6 draft picks – all of which will be late first/ supplemental picks.

    Yeah – I need to “wake up.”

  694. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Cashman has done some good things. But he hasn’t acquired a legitimate ace or improved the bullpen in a helluva long time. Riske or Percival would have been great.

  695. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Back to my source…he says

    Kennedy + Cabrera + Tabata + a lower level prospect is the offer.

  696. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Phil, there was an anonymous poll actually. i would be interested to see if you can find someone who disagrees though. seriously.

  697. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Boston Dave – Chamberlain being in more demand does not mean he is the better prospect. The bettter prospect is the one with the higher cieling. Hughes is the better prospect – 30 amazing innings of one inning relief pitching didnt change anything except the public’s perception of the two players. They still both posess the same skills. Chamberlain has some filthy stuff but hughes is the real projected future ace of the staff. He was the number one ranked pitching prospect in all of baseball last yr at 21 yrs old. Chamberlain is not a better prospect sorry.

  698. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am

    CB,

    you make an excellent point about the negotiations. several, actually. but the bottom line is, it looks like minnesota doesn’t feel the yankees offer is enough to warrant a negotiation window with santana, and they do feel that way about boston’s.

    now, if theo and co are granted a 72-hour window to add the greatest pitcher in baseball to their rotation, given the way they spent money last year, do you really think they won’t find a way to make it happen?

  699. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:53 am

    Buddy,

    Let’s see. Stats. Seeing Phil pitch 10+ games when completely healthy. Scouting reports from the past 3 years. Joba’s injury history. Phil’s incredible command. Phil being rated the top pitching prospect in the game in 2007. Phil posting a 4.50 ERA while being injured and with messed up mechanics. I know you’ve only seen these guys pitch on TV or at the stadium, but I’ve watched bullpens and scouting reports. Hughes is the bigger talent, simply due to age, command, and makeup. Joba has better pure stuff, but Phil isn’t far behind.

  700. east side yankee November 30th, 2007 at 12:53 am

    I think some Yankee fans are being very naive.

    Lets pretend for a second that the negotiations are actually going the way we are being led to believe. You actually have some fantasy that if the Yankees offered Hughes the Twins would magically shake their hands and accept the deal…NO, they would go back right back to the Sox and then ask for one of Bucholz/Ellsbury.

    What happens if the Red Sox then say yes we’ll give you one of them…Then the Twins turn to the Yankees and demand Joba or Cano. What will you say then?

    Please tell me where you guys play poker…I need some money

  701. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:53 am

    Mike, YOU are simply wrong. Find me ONE credible publication or one GM that rates Hughes higher at this moment. ONE.

  702. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:53 am

    B:

    “That list was from BP’s Kevin Goldman who has a lot more insight into the actual opinion of scouts and executives than you do. Hughes is the better prospect, he has the better track record, and has shown signs of success as an MLB starter.”

    Careful, you’re approaching the ‘level of stupidity’ on this board. ;)

  703. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 12:54 am

    So explain to me why Joba is untouchable, but Hughes is not, if Hughes is better?

  704. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:54 am

    Dave, again… find me ONE team that would rather have Hughes than Chamberlain. otherwise stop talking out of your arse.

  705. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:54 am

    “Mike, YOU are simply wrong. Find me ONE credible publication or one GM that rates Hughes higher at this moment. ONE.”

    Baseball Prospectus. Kevin Goldman worked for Baseball America before joining the staff. This is his list:

    The Big Picture: Rankings Combined With Non-Rookies Under 25 (As Of Opening Day 2008)

    1. Philip Hughes, RHP
    2. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
    3. Ian Kennedy, RHP
    4. Austin Jackson, OF
    5. Jose Tabata, OF
    6. Alan Horne, RHP
    7. Dellin Betances, RHP
    8. Jesus Montero, C
    9. Melky Cabrera, OF
    10. Andrew Brackman, RHP

  706. CB November 30th, 2007 at 12:55 am

    Matt,

    Also – if the Twins want to keep santana this year I’d be perfectly happy with that.

    The yankees will signn him next year and get to keep hughes, kennedy, tabata and melky.

    I’d be more than happy to see the twins take their shot.

  707. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:55 am

    Boston Dave,

    Baseball Prospectus. Baseball America. Are they good enough for you?

  708. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:55 am

    “I’m confused as to how Philip Hughes went from the best pitching prospect in the game, to a guy who almost threw a no-hitter, to a guy people wanted to start throwing under the bus as he tried to re-find his groove after a pair of severe injuries. Don’t believe the anti-hype–he’s still a stud.” – Goldman on Phil Hughes

  709. B November 30th, 2007 at 12:57 am

    “So explain to me why Joba is untouchable, but Hughes is not, if Hughes is better?”

    That’s all media speculation, but in case you haven’t noticed the Yankees are pretty reluctant to trade Hughes.

  710. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:57 am

    Buddy,

    Joba is clearly a fan favorite, and I also think a Steinbrenner favorite. They know that if the Yankees move Joba, it would be a PR nightmare.

  711. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 12:57 am

    i’ll say this again, even though it’s been posted several times:

    hughes has sustained elbow, shoulder and hamstring injuries ALREADY. he is 21. he has lost velocity of his fastball, lost a bit of command from his curve, gets hurt when he throws the change, and his 2-seamer doesn’t bury the way it should.

    joba throws 98+ with command, has an unhittable slider, a curve that is already good but continues to develop, and a change that is still developing. he went from college to the majors in one year and DOMINATED big league hitters.

    but, yeah, hughes is the clear-cut ace of the two.

    we all like hughes. it’s exciting that he came up through the system but, my GOD you people are delusional.

    there’s a reason joba chamberlain’s name hasn’t even come up in trade talks. the yankees would at least CONSIDER moving hughes. they would not consider moving chamberlain. wonder why.

  712. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 12:58 am

    Boston Dave,

    Hughes had better numbers in the minors at a younger age than Joba put up. He has a lower career ERA and lower WHIP, though both were below 1. Hughes was hurt this year as we know, during the no-hitter he was throwing in hitter’s park in his second career start. He really didn’t rebound till September, when he posted a sub 3 era down the stretch for the Yanks, then was their best pitcher in the post season. He is at least as good a prospect as Joba going forward and his minor league #’s are better.

  713. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 12:58 am

    Kennedy + Cano

    Kennedy + Cano

    Kennedy + Cano

    Name a Sox package comparable to that one?

  714. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:58 am

    Mike, links please?

    I guess there may be some yahoos out there like yourself that want to go against the grain. Thank GOD the Yankees and Cashman disagree with you.

  715. hughesian bias November 30th, 2007 at 12:59 am

    kasey,

    you’re willing to trade hughes plus 3-4 other prospects FOR A YEAR of santana before you play him 15 mil/year for the next 7 years?

    are you retarded? you must be at least mildy retarded.

    kazmir would probably only bring over IPK (not hughes), al horne, and a couple of bullpen arms (ohlendorf, veras) NOT a closer seeing as the rays just signed troy percival.

    that being said, i’m all for holding out until the end of 2009 because the big 3 need to stay in ny. i think the yankees should just wait until santana hits free agency. it’s the smartest route, no doubt about it.

    the kazmir situation FOR A TRADE (keyword: trade) is better than the santana situation FOR A TRADE. but when it comes to which pitcher is better, of course santana wins. you need to do your research…

    you’re sounding a lot like an elderly steinbrenner who used to say “give ‘em whoever they want! i dont care who!” and that’s gotten GREAT results these past few years.

  716. VOIII November 30th, 2007 at 12:59 am

    Kasey, Your arrogance and condescending posts are out of control. The Yankees just signed the best player in the game for essentially what they would have paid him in an extension. The revenue gained by A-Rod’s assault on the record books will more than make up for the 300 million. That was a smart business move. Igawa is a project right now but he does strike out major league batter at a 9 for 9 inning clip. He can be a very solid option from the left side.
    Your drooling over Sanatana and the fear of the Redsox getting him looks childish. Sanatana does make their rotation intimidating but not unbeatable. The Yankees owned the Redsox pitching last season. Hughes may very well be better than Johan in 2 years. He may not, but he does have the tools and the make-up to do so. No-one thought Cano would be the player he is today.

  717. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 12:59 am

    Bostondave,

    Look at percivals numbers and riskes numbers last yr. .85 whip in NL compared to 1.26 whip in NL I think even with the conversion Percival is significantly better. Percival has also had a pretty nice career. career era of 3 career whip of 1. He is 38 but he took a yr off in 2006 and came back pretty strong last yr. Riske is exactly that – risky. HE IS significantly younger but not nearly as good. I dunno – i would have taken either of them but cash pulled his usual antics and basically is ignoring the pen until everything else is settled. By the time he is ready to focus on the pen he will be debating between hawkins and mahay – crap and more crap. Might as well stick with what we have at this point and save our money cuz percival is signed and riske is almost signed.

  718. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 12:59 am

    When did Hughes have shoulder issues? His elbow flared up at age 18. He didn’t get hurt again since last year. Phil has perfect mechanics, so any injury is likely fluke.

    Joba has already had surgery on his knee. He’s also had elbow issues.

  719. mel November 30th, 2007 at 1:01 am

    Can’t we just rate them like this?

    1A Joba
    1B Hughes

  720. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:01 am

    east side yankee is exactly right.

    the twins are trying to play the yankees and sox off each other.

    If the yankees agree to hughes then they go to the sox and ask for even more.

    it’s called a bidding war – that’s what happens when you get people you are negotiating to panci.

    that’s how scott boras gets such crazy contracts – teams panic and bid against themselves.

    That’s what the yankees would be doing. There will be no bidding war becasue there is no way, no way the sox are going to trade ellsbury or buchholz to get santana and pay him $150 million.

    The sox are not going to include one of those guys. it is not going to happen.

    Lester/ Lowrie/ Bowden are 3 of the 4 best prospects the sox have. They can only improve the offer in one of two ways:

    1. Include Buchholz/ ellsbury – not going to happen

    2. Add more players

    If its an add more players situation the yankees can absolutely bury a sox offer with more young pitching and keep hughes.

  721. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 1:01 am

    Boston Dave,

    I’m not posting links to that. If you haven’t already read it, you’re not worth my time. BP’s list has already been posted in this thread. BA’s list is called the Prospect Handbook, something everyone here discussing prospects should own.

  722. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:02 am

    hughesian bias,

    when kazmir hits the DL before the all-star break, or when he misses his last few starts of the year AGAIN, we’ll talk about the value you’d get in a trade.

    yeah, i’d give up hughes for the opportunity to sign the greatest pitcher in baseball – who hasn’t been injured – before i’d give him up for the opportunity to roll the dice on kazmir.

    i know it’s mind-boggling. call me crazy.

  723. B November 30th, 2007 at 1:02 am

    “As great as Chamberlain was in 2007, there are still some concerns about his injury history, as well as his conditioning. His changeup is the pitch that needs the most improvement, and he lost months of development on it during his relief stint. Some feel he might need to keep his emotions more in check as a starter.”

  724. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:03 am

    Dave, I guess we will see. I’d be happy to take a bet with you that Percival either gets injured or has an ERA higher than 4. 2yrs/20M for him would be insane.

  725. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 1:03 am

    Is anyone concerned about Joba going back to being a starter?

  726. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:03 am

    Mike:

    I saw the links. I don’t think Boston Dave knows how to read.

  727. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:03 am

    B – why dont you post the rest of that piece. the part where they say he is the #1 yankee prospect.

  728. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Boston dave-

    since when is other times wanting a player a measure of how good of a prospect that player is. Im not going to name teams that want hughes more cuz i dont have that kind of info – no one does. But just cuz chamberlain pitched well in relief this season doesnt mean he is all of a sudden a beter prospect. They still have the same talent they had last yr. Hughes was oustanding at every level. Chamberlain had amazing and ok yrs in college. He put up numbers that werent as good as hughes in the minors. Hughes is more polished, has more poise, more maturity and better control.

    Yankees know their own prospects and trust me, they dont want to trade hughes. I can see them trading cano before they trade hughes. And as someone said, trading chamberlain would be a PR nightmare- everyone is in love with the guy. But thinking chamberlain is the better prospect in just being blind and following the masses. You need to know everything there is to know about both of them and you will see hughes has the higher cieling and prolly the brighter future.

  729. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Master Wangkee, there is no way the links were posted while i was here in hte past 20 min. sorry dude but i dont sit on the yankee blogs all night like you do (just for an hour or so :) )

  730. B November 30th, 2007 at 1:05 am

    “B – why dont you post the rest of that piece. the part where they say he is the #1 yankee prospect.”

    Only because Hughes isn’t eligible by the standards Goldman uses for his prospects lists. Without considering rookie status, he rates Hughes higher than Joba.

  731. Mike November 30th, 2007 at 1:05 am

    It’s already been posted, BD! I’m not doing it for you. Get a subscription if you want to read it all, but it’s all there.

  732. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:06 am

    B:

    “As great as Chamberlain was in 2007, there are still some concerns about his injury history, as well as his conditioning. His changeup is the pitch that needs the most improvement, and he lost months of development on it during his relief stint. Some feel he might need to keep his emotions more in check as a starter.”

    I honestly see Chamberlain as a sell-high. I know the Yankees front office won’t cause a riot with the fans, but ultimately, I think we’re looking at our next closer and not our next ace. I would be willing to trade Joba for Santana and keep all of our position player prospects in the deal but I it would be a bad business decision and a PR nightmare.

  733. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:06 am

    you guys win. here’s the master plan:

    let the sox get santana. hang onto hughes for two years, then trade him to the rays for a year of kazmir, plus the rights to negotiate an extension.

    you’re right. that sounds much better than any santana deal. what was i thinking?!

    my apologies, guys.

  734. Retire21 November 30th, 2007 at 1:07 am

    Steve Howe You Doin-

    Sorry Steve I have other things to do in my life and can’t read 700 other post to know everytime somebody reported certain news and rotoworld reported that at that time.

  735. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:07 am

    If the deal has to include Hughes,Cabrera,and Tabata or A.Jax…then post what you want…Yankees have to do that deal…I hate to give him up,but Yankees cannot let the Redsux get another stud pitcher for their rotation.
    Yankees dont have a #1 guy right now
    Joba could be,but he isnt right now

    If the Redsux include Ellsbury in their deal with a Lester,then they will get Santanna.

  736. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:09 am

    The rays are giving percival – 2 yrs and 10 million with 2 mil in incentives – and they are a small market club. The yanks can afford another 8 mil more than the rays for the guy. Plus, I am so sick and tired of cash never improving the pen yr after yr and telling fans some crap about how there is no one on the market when last yr was one of the best classes of FA middle relief ever. And he just waits and wait until everyone is signed before he starts offering deals is disgusting. Then he says our bullpen is out top priority – actions talk way louder than words cash instead of telling us how important our bullpen is why cant he show us by investing some money into it besides the piece of $%&^ farnsworthless and Mo. And u know 3 yrs and 45 million for Mo is just as insane if not more so than 2 yrs and 20 mill for percival. Mo is actually slightly older i believe and percival had a far, far better yr last yr – it was one of the best of his career. It was one of Mos worst.

  737. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:09 am

    Mike, it was in response to this idiot. I’m sorry I havent been on here all night long and didnt scroll through the read all 600+ posts

    Master Wangkee
    November 30th, 2007 at 1:03 am
    Mike:

    I saw the links. I don’t think Boston Dave knows how to read.

  738. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 1:10 am

    Are people actually saying Joba is more likely to be our Ace than Hughes?

    Yeah, Joba was lights out…in relief. We havent even SEEN him start a major league game. Yes, he could be great. But let’s not sell Hughes short. The kid’s the best prospect, has started some games, showed alot of guts in his playoffs appearance and saved the game. The kid is special, he has heart, guts, and I think the X factor players like Jeter and Pettitte have. Competitiveness with control. Debate his stats, hes got something extra.

  739. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    LOL. Hooked on Phonics.

  740. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    From SJ44 earlier today on Joba-

    #

    Phil Hughes is not the #1 prospect in baseball anymore. Lists change as teams/scouts see more and more of a player.

    Buchholz and Chamberlain have passed him in just about everybody’s eyes in the game.

    Again, that’s not a knock to Hughes. Its more about how well Buchholz and Chamberlain have pitched.

    Think about it. Joba Chamberlain is untouchable in any deal. Phil Hughes is not.

    The Yankees value Chamberlain more than Hughes at this point. Wrong evaluation? I don’t think so but, time will tell.
    # El Comaduce

  741. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    Mel,

    You are correct – all of this arguing about about hughes and joba is hair splitting.

    They are both absolute studs. I personally think that Joba is slightly better but even more than that they are just different.

    That’s why keeping hughes is imperative. He’s not just a good prospect – he’s a great prospect.

    For anyone who is criticizing phil – please read this excellent article that i’ve linked to below from the hardball times. It puts phil’s potential in context with comparable pitchers at his age/level

    Here’s the conclusion:

    “If he stays healthy, Phil will anchor the Yankees rotation for the next 15 years. He is the best (and almost only) pitching prospect to emerge from the Yankees farm since Mariano Rivera. Rivera is going to the Hall of Fame. Hughes has a golden opportunity to follow him.

    Shush. Don’t tell anyone but if the Yankees line-up stays the way it is he could even win 300 games.”

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/m.....ip-hughes/

  742. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    Catherine

    I would rather see Joba stay in the bullpen.
    But Yankee brass seem to think he has more upside as a starter over 7-8 innings every 5th day.

  743. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:12 am

    Dave, you just lost any credibility with me when you suggested “percival had a far, far better yr last yr” than Mariano.

    Its your opinion and you’re entitled to it, and i am entitled to my opinion that that is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard.

  744. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:12 am

    kasey the suxx get santana and they will be the favorite for the division for the next five yrs- beckett, dice-k, santana and buckholz would all be under the age of 30 and all be under the sux control for atleast half a decade. That would be a idiotic move

  745. mel November 30th, 2007 at 1:13 am

    Dave,

    Percival went to the Rays because he wanted to close. Same thing that Gordon wanted to do (TG we didn’t stop him). It’s not always about the money.

  746. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 1:13 am

    Wouldn’t Beckett be a free agent some time in the next 5 years?

  747. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:14 am

    thank you CB… good points. nobody is knocking phil (are they?) but right now joba is the hotter commodity. that’s all.

  748. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:14 am

    Kasey,

    Would you trade Joba for Santana? They won’t necessarily stop with their request for Hughes.

    By everything you’ve said tonight the answer would have to be yes.

  749. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 1:14 am

    I think Joba would be more valuable as a two inning bullpen guy. He can be the horse of the bullpen and be lights out. If its not broken why fix it. The bullpen is weak and Joba helped seal it up. Problem is that we don’t have enough strong starters unless we wanna throw Igawa out there…I think he would more useful selling hotdogs. Joba will start until we get stronger starters

  750. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:14 am

    I think Joba will end up in the pen but could be sold as a starter right now. In my view, we’d be trading an ace closer (Joba) for an ace starter (Santana). Like I said, PR nightmare so it will never happen and I believe the Yankees will try to push Chamberlain as a starter despite the durability issues that arose when he pitched in college.

  751. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:16 am

    Dave

    I agree with you on the middle relievers,but I dont think I would give Percival 10 Million over 2 yrs.

    Viz,Mahay(or Villone),Riske to go along with Mo,Farnsworth and Ohlendorf.

  752. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:17 am

    Catherine, Joba has always been a starter and was dominant all of last year as a starter in the minors. I think Joba will be valuable wherever he is and it might make sense to get more innings out of him as a starter. we’ll see i guess. But if the bullpen is terrible next year you might be right.

    I wish Humberto Sanchez were going to be ready for the beginning of the season. I think he could fill Joba’s role of last year.

  753. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:17 am

    hey moron aka boston dave – i dunno if you can read or use the internet but look it up! 3.15 era and 1.12 whip for Mo 1.8 era and 0.85 whip for percival – cuz your an idiot and i dunno if u know what that means – Percival in his innings pitchings let up much less base runners and much less runs than Mo did last yr. And if you compare that to their average yrs – Mo had one of the worst yrs of his career and percival had one of his best. I know it is the AL and NL differences you must take into account but still percival had a much better yr than mo last yr and thats that. I lose all credibility with you because i say a true statement – ok guy, why dont you buy a brain and get back to me when you learn how to use it.

  754. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:18 am

    Dave – your opinions are only serving comedic purposes at this point. keep it up though.

  755. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 am

    ok how bout giving percival 15 mil over 2 yrs im just saying cash should have gave him something that he couldnt refuse. Like so much money that he would rather make the extra five to ten mil or so than close for another team. Its barely more than the rays offered him so i think the yanks can and should have afforded it.

  756. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 am

    I wish Humberto Sanchez was more of a sure-thing in the bullpen. There must at least be some internal debate over using Joba as a starter vs. reliever.

  757. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 am

    Totally Agree Master-

    Joba should start now like Mariano & then takeover in a couple of years & be the stud closer that he seems to look like.

  758. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 am

    CB,

    i think holding on to chamberlain and cano is smart.

    i’m not saying give the twins what they want at all costs. i’m saying that, if phil hughes is what’s holding this deal up, that’s stubborn and stupid.

    that’s it. find my post where i’ve said that the yankees should just cough up any player the twins ask for. ain’t there.

  759. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:19 am

    lets take a vote though… just for a good laugh. maybe i am wrong on this one.

    how many people would rather have Troy Percival closing games for the Yankees next season than Mariano?

  760. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:20 am

    ok boston dave- ignore the facts its alright. Dont let the facts get in the way of your opinion. I noticed how u didnt even try to argue the last one cuz you realize how utterly wrong you are and how much stupidity is coming out of your mouth.

  761. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:20 am

    percival wanted to close. it wasn’t about money, apparently. keep in mind a lot of these relievers want the opportunity to close and they aren’t going to get it for a few years in new york.

  762. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:22 am

    According to the rumors link on the side————->
    There is a market for Kei Igawa…because he is cheap.
    Yankees dont have a spot for him in the rotation in 2008,so why not try and deal him for minor leaguers to replenish what we may lose in the Twins deal???
    Kinda like the Sheffield deal last November….although I think CashMoney could have done better and not dealt him to DETROIT…other teams were interested.

  763. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:23 am

    bostondave did i ever say Percival was better than Mariano – absolutely not. Did i say id rather have percival than mariano? No i didnt. Did i say if we acquired percival i want him closing games for the yanks? No i didnt. Say stop putting words in my mouth. I said Percival had a better yr last yr than Mo did and we gave Mo 45 million for 3 yrs so i dont think 20 mil for 2 yrs was so unreasonable. I know your mind cant wrap itself around such a complex comment. Why did you read it again – or have someone read it to you just in case so you can actually understand me.

  764. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:23 am

    I just think people are forgetting how good phil is.

    Just like people forgot the first half of this year how good Cano is and wanted him traded or sent down to the minors to embarass him into “playing harder.”

    My point is this – the Twins are going to try to get the yankees to panic.

    To me the yankees hold tight and they’ll get santana without giving up Phil. Everything points to that.

    Do i know that for a fact – no. That’s not the way negotiatiions work. You can never be certain.

    But what you need to do is be rational and look at all the evidence. If you don’t you will get taken to the cleaners.

    The X factor is if the yankees panic because they start thinking ‘oh no what if boston gets santana. we’re done.”

    Overall I think the evidence strongly favors the yankees. Primarily because I think santana wants to play in new york. he’s not giving up his one shot at free agency unless he goes exactly where he wants and at the price he wants.

    I also don’t think the twins want to lose santana for draft picks.

    I also don’t think the sox are going to give up ellsbury or buchholz and that the twins have little use for Crisp. On top of that the yankees can throw in more A- type,high quality arms than the sox can to sweeten the deal with the twins.

    That to me is the evidence outside of panicking.

    Losing Phil Hughes is not something you just say, “oh well the twins wanted him so we had to do it to get the deal done.”

  765. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:23 am

    Buddy:

    Yes indeed. Joba’s the next Mo and the fans are really REALLY attached to Mo which is why Joba’s not going anywhere. I wonder if the Yankees can find the same type of replacement for Posada, a stud catcher who the fans really rally behind.

  766. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:23 am

    Dave,

    i am gonna go way out on the limb here… but i dont think there are too many people that are gonna agree with you on that one.

  767. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 1:24 am

    Utility Man

    Its a good suggestion. Except Igawa isnt near good enough to try and make up would we would be losing. It wouldnt make much of a difference.

  768. Nettles vs. Lee November 30th, 2007 at 1:25 am

    Percival is a huge injury risk. He already retired once because of arm problems. He pitched in back-to-back games last year exactly twice. I would not want to rely on him as a closer.

  769. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:26 am

    yea kasey but my point was before boston dave twisted it somehow into percival should close over mo that if the yanks offered percival significantly more money than the rays i think he would have taken the relief job. If we r going to pay Mo 3 yrs and 45 mil at 38 yrs old why cant we pay his setup man 2 yrs at 15 mil or so. Is that so ridiculous?

  770. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:26 am

    Troy Percival was good…

    in the 80′s.

  771. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:28 am

    i would have liked to see them grab percival or riske, as well. or anyone to shore up what’s going to be a putrid bullpen, but it looks like mahay and latroy hawkins are going to have to suffice, which is terrifying.

  772. Greg C November 30th, 2007 at 1:28 am

    Wangkee:

    Percival was the closer for the 2002 WS Champs, and he had a 1.87 ERA last year.

    BTW shouldn’t you be on the YES Boards?

  773. hughesian bias November 30th, 2007 at 1:29 am

    joba out of the pen is a waste. he’s got 4 pitches, bullpen arms usually rely on two (remember the fastball/slider combo we saw so many times?)

    joba’s got a plus-plus fastball, slider, a nasty curve (he unleashed it to strike out dustin pedroia looking in sept) and an above average change up.

    thats a starter if i ever saw one. just because he’s good out of the ‘pen doesnt mean he shouldn’t start. hughes pitched beautifully in relief of clemens, and he could do the same lights-out job that joba did this year, but he’s a starter, so no.

    youre looking for the best allocation of your players, and joba in the BP would just be wasting his talent. throwing 150-160 as a starter is much more valuable to the Yankees than the 60-70 he’ll throw in the BP.

  774. Zack November 30th, 2007 at 1:29 am

    Kasay,
    Just to prove you have no idea what you are talking about, I cite this:
    “hughes has sustained elbow, shoulder and hamstring injuries ALREADY. he is 21. he has lost velocity of his fastball, lost a bit of command from his curve, gets hurt when he throws the change, and his 2-seamer doesn’t bury the way it should.”
    –Hughes “elbow injury” was a mild bout of tendinitis that had as much to do with reaching his innings cap in 2005 as anything. It wasn’t remotely anything serious. Ditto for his “shoulder injury,” a “mildly sore shoulder” at the end of the season. If you knew anything about pitching, you would realize that for a kid just out of high school pitching 100 innings for the first time, its not exactly uncommon.

    He got hurt throwing a curve. If you mean he gets hurt as in hit, well the problem was that he didn’t throw it enough. When he did, he didn’t get hurt by it at all.

    He did lose velocity from his FB, but he also recovered much of it as the season wore on. Ditto his command. Hughes also rarely threw his 2 seamer for most of the post-injury season.

    I’m not opposed to trading Hughes, but if you want to construct an argument around knocking Hughes as a prospect, you are going to have to do better than that. Its enough just to say that there is no such thing as a sure bet when it comes to pitchers, it isn’t enough to use faulty scouting or haphazard analysis

  775. Buddy Biancalana November 30th, 2007 at 1:29 am

    Does it really matter who is better, Hughes or Joba, all that matters is that they are on the same team at the end of the day.

  776. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:29 am

    I DONT WANT PERCIVAL TO CLOSE – I WANT HIM TO SETUP MO INSTEAD OF FARNWORTHLESS ESSENTIALLY TAKING JOBAS PLACE IN THE PEN FOR NEXT YR. Without joba in the pen, our bullpen is a disgrace and we need either pecival or riske to setup for Mo – no one else on the FA is even capable. So we should have offered percivalo significantly more money than the rays did to pitch the eighth. I think he can pitch 50 solid innings of relief – not so bad. And he retired for one yr and came back stronger than ever, he is only 37 and didnt really pitch very long or many innings so i think he is still capable esp after seeing the stats he put up last season.

  777. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:30 am

    Catherine

    I dont think he could SELL hotdogs with thoose sunglasses he wears while pitching day games…so maybe we find a player for the future in a trade with the CUBS,Pirates,Rockies????

    Dave
    I have to agree with BostonDave….let him close for the RAYS….we already have Farnsworth who suppose to throw hard.That would be a waste of money.

  778. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:31 am

    by “hurt” on his change, i meant hit.

    and, certainly, his injuries were not serious, but that’s still not a trend you love to see.

  779. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:31 am

    i jsut wanted to confirm….

    did Dave really say the yanks should have offered percival 2 years and $15M and that he was a better pitcher than Rivera last year?

    hahahahahahaa

  780. Nettles vs. Lee November 30th, 2007 at 1:31 am

    It would be a waste to put Joba in the bullpen. Hughesian bias is exactly right. Joba has a great arsenal of pitches and has a lot more value pitching starting innings than reliever innings.

    Mariano became a relief pitcher because he didn’t have enough pitches to be a starter.

  781. Taylor November 30th, 2007 at 1:31 am

    Joba as a starter has a ton more value than Joba in the pen. Putting him in the pen would be one of the bigger wastes of talent we’ve seen.

  782. Taylor November 30th, 2007 at 1:32 am

    Nettles,

    Mariano also became a closer because he wouldn’t have been able to hold up for 200 innings a year.

  783. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:32 am

    Percival = Dinosaur

  784. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:33 am

    Kasey,

    You can’t have it both ways.

    You can’t say if the yankees lose santana to the red sox then it’s all over and also say I wouldn’t trade joba.

    If boston getting santana means that boston’s created a dynasty the yankees are very unlikely to be able to compete again then the yankees must trade hughes and cano to get santana if that’s what it takes.

    That’s the problem with panic – if you are always butting heads against the end of the world then there’s no way to make a rational deal. You wind up doing “whatever it takes.”

  785. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:34 am

    i just hope we dont sign hawkins or mahay or anyone else for that matter. Cashlost his shot lets see what ohlendorf, ramirez, veras can do with a full yr as relievers in the majors. I guess we will take the best one and stick him in the eighth inning hole altho i think once again it is going to be a rough yr in the yankees bullpen surprise surprise.

  786. Boston Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:34 am

    nite everyone… good luck with that prediciton Dave…

    i guess when you have hit rock bottom and have nothing to lose, you can make wild and ridiculous predictions like that one. you have nowhere to go but up.

  787. Nettles vs. Lee November 30th, 2007 at 1:35 am

    It would be a mistake to pay very much for either Hawkins or Mahay. Coming off of good seasons, they will probably get overpaid by teams that later regret it. Middle relievers are a crapshoot.

  788. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:36 am

    I believe Joba has the stuff and arsenal to pitch as a starter. I just worry about his durability. He’s a big body. He’s a longshot as a starter and a Kerry-Wood type injury risk. He could morph into Roger Clemens too but I wouldn’t complain. I think they’ll try Joba as a starter and send him to the pen based on need (bullpen’s gonna stink next year) and injury risk management.

  789. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:36 am

    Zack,

    Thank you. This nonesense about phil hughes being injury prone has been flying around all afternoon.

    It’s completely misleading. He had some tendinitis and a tired shoulder.

    That happens to every pitcher as they are developing.

    The only reason these were “injuries” was because of the fact that the yankees were so hypervigilant in monitoring his arm and being careful to not let him get hurt.

  790. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:39 am

    bostondave u criticize my idea to make the pen better but u dont come up with any ideas of ur own. Take a look at the free agent relievers left on the market and tell me who u would like to sign on that scrapheap. Riske already agreed to a deal with the brewers for something like 20 million and he is half the pitcher percival is. O yea and remember linebrinks little 20 million dollar contract a couple of weeks ago – he isnt even a good relief pitcher. And Mo recieved 3 yrs and 45 million coming off the worst season of his career at the age of 38. The funny thing is we could chose a horrible reliever off that list and still end up paying 5 to 10 mil for that guy. At least with percival we would get some quality innings out of it. O and we wouldnt have to worry about him walking the ballpark as with the usual guys.

    Utilityman I hope that thing said about farnsworthless was a joke – u heard he threw hard? I cant wait to get rid of that waste of space – and what is he making like 8 mil a yr or something to suck every other day …

  791. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:40 am

    Hawkins I dont get

    Riske is rumored to go to Brew Crew for $$$ like Linebrink got.

    Mahay isnt a bad Lefty reliever…and their isnt many out there to get.

    Affeldt might be pricey

    Villone would probably come back cheaply especially playing near his children.I think he was missused by Torre last yr.

  792. Master Wangkee November 30th, 2007 at 1:41 am

    I like Affeldt. Pay the price.

  793. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:42 am

    i dont actually think the yanks will offer percival that – he already signed with the rays I was just saying that is what cash should have done. 45 mil to rivera was just as ridiculous and that came true- i cant wait to see rivera at the age of 42 wahooo Its going to be so sad watching him fall into the abyss/

  794. Rod-A November 30th, 2007 at 1:42 am

    I’m going to have to stop refreshing. This is going to be a drawn out process.

  795. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 1:43 am

    “You can’t say if the yankees lose santana to the red sox then it’s all over and also say I wouldn’t trade joba.”

    wrong again. i CAN say – as i have said all night – that if PHIL HUGHES is what keeps them from getting santana, than it’s a mistake.

    you’ll notice that, at no point, have i mentioned cano or chamberlain.

  796. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:43 am

    bo;;pme sucks alfeddt sucks mahay sucks hawkins is horrible – if we sign someone, they need to actually be good enough to be a closer on another team. That is all good nitwe

  797. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 1:44 am

    NYY needs to make a side deal with San Diego and send Marquez, Igawa, DeSalvo, and Karstens and about 2 mil for Kevin Kouzmanoff and Cla Merideth, and flip Koumanoff to Minnesota and include him along with Kennedy and Cabrera. San Diego already has a third baseman waiting in AAA in Headly and needs pitching.

  798. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:44 am

    Joba is absolutely a starter.

    Joba has tremendous stamina. He sits at 96-98 late into games this past year in the minors. In the longest game he pitches this past year he hit 98 in his last inning of work.

    This isn’t just “touching” 96-98″ He sits there the whole game.

    On top of that he throws 4 pitches. Fastball and slider are devastating. The curve and change are good and got much better over the course of one season of minor league ball.

    You don’t put a pitcher like that in the pen. Mariano was perfect for the pen because he would lose velocity as a starter and only threw 2 decent pitches.

    Joel Zumaya is in the pen because he can hit 99-100 for two innings but can’t sustain it and only throws two pitches. He belongs in the pen.

    Justin Verlander is a starter because he sits at 97-99 for 7-8 innings and throws 4 pitches. Whe verlander threw his no hitter I believe he hit 99 in the 8th inning.

    Joba can do what verlander can. There are no more than 5-6 guys in all of baseball who can do that.

    And he has better command than verlander. He’s a beast. He is the guy you want throwing 2 games out of 5 in the ALDS an 3 games out of 7 in the ALCS/ World Series.

  799. Dave November 30th, 2007 at 1:45 am

    trade cano not hughes u know how easy we can replace cano and u know how difficult it will be to replace hughes if he turns into what many of us think he will. some offense and a decent second baseman – no problem an ace- when was the last time cash traded for or acquired an ace- NEVER

  800. jc November 30th, 2007 at 1:45 am

    Doesn’t Santana have a 6 plus ERA at Fenway?How has he done in the playoffs?Not that great.Is he a Yankee killer?Not really.Let the Sox have him,if they can sign him.Theo and Lucchino don’t give no trade clauses AND would they give him 25 million a year for 6 years?That goes against the Red Sox philosophy of no trade clauses and obscene contracts.BTW,Manram was signed by Dan Duquette,the current brain trust has been trying to rid of him even though he helped reverse the curse.The Yankees should call Boston’s bluff and see if Santana accepts no NTC AND less than 25 million a year.This is a Trojan horse bid into making the Yanks give up much more than they should,so let the Bosox brass do their thing….they are sabremetric and stat geeks AND they know that this guy will be rocked at Fenway,this is all a ruse!

  801. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:46 am

    Dave

    That was a shot at Farnsworth,the fact that he is suppose to come in and throw hard(90-95) and throw strike one,not strike one with a 2-0 count…oh yeah and be able to pitch back to back games…..I agree with ya I hate watching him…but as Nettles said in an earlier post…middle relievers are a crapshoot.

    Farnsworth signed Dec 2, 2005 for 3 yrs for I think around 16million over the course of the contract…he does not make 8 million this yr.

  802. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 1:46 am

    if santana goes to the red sox, these discussions about the bullpen will be completely moot.

    frankly, i’m sick of the red sox beating us off and on the field. the yankees need to win this game.

  803. east side yankee November 30th, 2007 at 1:50 am

    Folks this is exactly what the Twins are trying to do, please read and take heed

    Marlins back out of Cabrera deals
    Posted: Thursday November 29, 2007 07:24AM ET
    The Angels nearly reeled in Marlins third baseman Miguel Cabrera not once, but twice recently. But both times, the Angels said Wednesday, the Marlins raised their trade demands and the deals fell through. Angels owner Arte Moreno said the Angels aren’t the only team the Marlins are using that negotiating strategy with to trade Cabrera. He said it is his understanding the Dodgers also nearly had a deal in place for Cabrera, only for it to unravel at the last minute because of the Marlins’ increased demands.

    The Twins will not stop at Hughes, they will ask for our entire FARM. The Yankees cannot allow temselves to be fleeced, despite what panic stricken fans may want

  804. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:50 am

    Not a bad deal GreenBeret

    But the Twinkies are rumored to want Cuddyer to play 3B next season for them.Newly aquired Young would play RF.
    I like getting Meredith from Padres though..

    Igawa and Clippard to Padres???Perhaps

  805. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:52 am

    berra8

    I agree,we do need to WIN this Game now…..but that what we are having…..discussions.

  806. CB November 30th, 2007 at 1:53 am

    “if they sign santana, which pretty much guarantees boston a shot at the series for the next four years,…”

    If getting santana guarantees boston a shot at the world series for the foreseeable future the the yankees should trade anyone, including chamberlain and cano for santana.

    If getting santana gives boston such an advantage that the yankees won’t be able to practically compete
    then they have to give up anything to get santana. otherwise there’s no point to their season and all of the hundreds of millions they’ve wasted on signing veternas to long term deals over the next 5 years is wasted

  807. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 1:53 am

    Understood, U-Man, but, they’d prefer Cuddyer in left or right field if there was a better option at third base. His defense wouldn’t be any worse than Cuddyer and should get better, but, you’re looking at a Gary Gaetti bat at third.

  808. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 1:55 am

    right now their left field option is Kubel, who, defensively is better suited at DH.

  809. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 1:58 am

    They have Nick Punto as well…not sure if newly aquired BrendanHarris will play SS or 2B for them.

    They could always sign Shannon Stewart to play LF…oh wait they tried that already….Rondell White and his 5-6 HRS maybe???

  810. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 2:00 am

    Punto has a decent glove, but no power and a .201 BA? I think Harris ends up at 2nd base. He’s not good at short, but, real solid at 2nd, and Casilla plays both positions well, good singles hitter and a tom of speed.

  811. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 2:01 am

    that’s “ton of speed”

  812. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 2:02 am

    Rondell White retired.

  813. kasey November 30th, 2007 at 2:05 am

    “If getting santana guarantees boston a shot at the world series for the foreseeable future the the yankees should trade anyone, including chamberlain and cano for santana.”

    once again, my comments have all been in response to reports that the reluctance to deal hughes is what’s keeping the yankees from getting santana. now, if the reports had been different, had they said, “the twins want cano and chamberlain or no deal,” we’d be having a different conversation.

    i’m not going to clarify that position again.

  814. Giuseppe Franco November 30th, 2007 at 2:05 am

    I don’t care if the Red Sox get Santana.

    The Yanks will start hitting him eventually like they do anyone else. The more ABs against him – the more they’ll adjust.

    The Red Sox might be the “favorite” to win over the next few years but that doesn’t mean they’ll win.

    Teams do have to play 162 regular season games a year – along with winning 11 postseason games to boot.

    Don’t make this move to prevent him from going to the Red Sox. That’s not smart business.

  815. rbizzler November 30th, 2007 at 2:09 am

    Um Phil, it’s Ron-D.L. not Rondell. He wants everyone to celebrate the impressive amount of time he has spent on the Disabled List. And I though his acquisition was a great move for the Yanks back in the day. Shows what I know!

    Maybe we should just cave and let Kasey run the team.

  816. berra8 November 30th, 2007 at 2:10 am

    the red sox will be the favorite for the next few years, which will be the last productive years of mariano, posada, and the end of jeter and a-rod’s prime. the core of this team is aging, and time is running out to win a championship.

    what an f’ing disaster.

  817. Greg C November 30th, 2007 at 2:10 am

    I agree completely Giuseppe.

  818. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:10 am

    Phil

    Thanks I did not know that.

    I guess after .170 BA and 4 Hrs that might happen.

  819. east side yankee November 30th, 2007 at 2:11 am

    Kasey:

    I think what people are saying is that the Twins are bluffing the Yankees. If it was really just Hughes holding up the deal, I think the deal gets done.

    They want to escalate this thing beyond Hughes

  820. pat November 30th, 2007 at 2:12 am

    This is like the A-Rod situation all over again in that some get very emotional when they don’t get immediate gratification. Emotion can be expensive.

    Boston has a history of setting a dollar and year value on players- Johnny Damon and Mike Lowell- are 2 examples of that. They were willing to let both walk.

    Knowing that has been their style in the past, you need to think what year and dollar value they would place on Santana.

    They determined that DiceK had a 6 year 103million value after the posting fee but 51 million of that doesn’t count against salary or luxury tax. 7 years 175 million that all counts against luxury tax is a huge leap.

    Santana doesn’t care how good a deal the Twins get. He cares how good a deal he gets and the more the teams give the Twins, the less they are inclined to give him.

    Santana’s NTC veto is the wildcard in all this. If the Twins want a deal to happen, they need to balance it all out because if their greed hurts Santanas ability to get paid they could find themselves with 2 draft picks that wouldn’t net them the worst of any of the deals we’ve already heard.

    Also
    Yanks offered Percival more money than the Rays for 1 year. Percival wanted 2 years and the Yanks refused. That’s why he went to Tampa.

  821. Ryan November 30th, 2007 at 2:15 am

    For everyone that thinks replacing Cano would be so easy, how do you do so? Best FA would be to stick Eckstein there, and he wants 9 million a year. There’s no one in the system that can play right now, and if you trade, you trade a guy like horne for some dud like Barfield. If you have to throw someone higher than Kennedy in to get Santana, its gotta be Hughes, not Cano.

  822. LCâ„¢ November 30th, 2007 at 2:16 am

    ESPN’s Peter Gammons said last night the Yankees will pull out all the stops to get Santana, including trading pitcher Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera. The Yankees have indicated that pitcher Joba Chamberlain and second baseman Robinson Cano would not be part of a trade.

    “I think Hank Steinbrenner will do whatever it takes to get him to the Yankees,” said Gammons, who was at the Willowbend Club in Mashpee for a fundraising dinner for the Rehabilitation Hospital of Cape Cod and the Islands.

    But he added that the Red Sox could take what they’re reportedly offering for Santana and trade with the Oakland A’s for All-Star righty Dan Haren.
    http://www.capecodonline.com/a...../711300333

  823. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:18 am

    Santanna or Haren???
    Which would you trade for???

    I take Santanna….Redsux can then take on Haren if they want.

  824. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 2:19 am

    Gammons is just pushing the party line. The Yanks have no motivation to add Hughes, cause the Twins market for Santana and his 150M extension just has not materialized.

  825. CaptainsCorner November 30th, 2007 at 2:19 am

    According to nj.com the Twins want an impact player..If the Yanks do not give up Hughes or Cano there is no deal. Bostons package of Crisp, Lester and the 2 other prospects is not good enough. They claim if they do not get a Buchholz, Ellsbury, Hughes or Cano then they will or can keep Santana…which I do not believe. The official thought things will heat up at the meetings. I would think if it only came down to Ellsbury then Boston will include him.

  826. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:22 am

    I would not want to give up Cano….but if they insisited then Cano and Kennedy thats it…not 3 players.

  827. east side yankee November 30th, 2007 at 2:23 am

    LC

    My interpretation of that report is as follows:

    the first part is the twins telling the Sox you better give us elsbury/bucholz , the Yankees are pulling out all the stops

    the 2nd part is the Red Sox response to their bluff: We can take our offer to Billy Beane and get Dan Haren, better take it while its hot.

    Of course Beane is waiting to start his bidding war over Haren

  828. CB November 30th, 2007 at 2:23 am

    pat put it very well. the red sox have generally been very disciplined about their contracts and the length of their deal.

    a santana deal doesn’t fit the way they’ve operated at all.

    could santana be the exception – I suppose but the money issue has to be a major issue.

    If anyone doesn’t think beckett is going to be annoyed with making 1/2 as much as santana isn’t living in the real world. Beckett just won them a world series.

    Boston is trying to drive the price up.

  829. mel November 30th, 2007 at 2:24 am

    O.K. Let’s review. Mets say they won’t trade Reyes. Sox say they won’t trade Ellsbury or Steal-th. Yankees prefer not to give Hughes. Who will the Twins make a deal with? Impatience will cost us.

  830. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:25 am

    I think I read that Peter Gammons also said that The Redsux would have to redo Becketts contract if they landed Santanna and signed him to 22-25 Million per yr.

  831. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 2:26 am

    With Cashman, patience is a great strength.

  832. mel November 30th, 2007 at 2:30 am

    According to Cot’s, Beckett’s set to make 9.5/10.5/12M over the next three years. (last one is a club option)

    So Gammons thinks that the Sox are going to cough up $150M and more than double Beckett’s contract?

    I don’t think so. Of course, stranger things have happened. They did spend $50M just to talk to someone.

  833. pat November 30th, 2007 at 2:31 am

    Utility

    If Gammons is right, Santana could end up costing them 40 million a year. 25 to Santana, 10 to Beckett and 5 more for the luxury tax on the 2 of them.

  834. CB November 30th, 2007 at 2:31 am

    If the twins want to keep Santana that’s fine. No harm there.

    He’ll be a free agent next year. The yankees will absolutely sign him and the twins can have our first round pick and supplemental instead of kennedy, melky and tabata.

    That would be absolutely fine. They’ll fill pettite’s spot with santana.

    Of course the twins are bluffing. They know they have no leverage there. It’s highly unlikely that they can afford to take picks alone.

    Also if they want to take a shot they have to keep Nathan. Makes no sense to take a shot without your top 5 closer.

    They’d lose Torii Hunter, Santana and Nathan for 6 low first/ supplemental picks. Have a nice time moving into your new publicly funded stadium in 2010 after that.

  835. Giuseppe Franco November 30th, 2007 at 2:33 am

    CB:

    You are exactly right. I don’t think Theo and Co. are going to budge on this one.

    Beckett absolutely wouldn’t like another guy coming in and making more than twice as much money.

    People who don’t think that would be an issue hasn’t been paying attention.

  836. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:34 am

    Yeah I dont understand Trading Nathan and Rincon and Santanna and letting Silva go.

    Maybe they want to bring Kyle Lohse back???

  837. mel November 30th, 2007 at 2:35 am

    Who gives a spit what Beckett thinks if Santana comes in and makes double of what he makes? There’s no reason to re-do his contract because he’s their property. The question is who would be their ace?

  838. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 2:36 am

    I hope the Yankees don’t budge on their offer.

  839. CB November 30th, 2007 at 2:38 am

    In the red sox system there is a massive fall of in the quality of their prospects after Buchholz and Ellsbury.

    I don’t see them giving up either of them. If the yankee deal right now is Kennedy/ Melky/ Tabata and the Yankees throw in Horne. Or even Horne and Marquez or Alberto Gonzalea are the twins going to turn that down for picks? The yankees could put Horne and Betances in that deal.

    As long as the twins want pitching the yankees have such great depth that they can give the twins more major league quality arms than anyone without giving up hughes.

  840. UtilityMan November 30th, 2007 at 2:42 am

    Dave

    If your out there…..Krazy Kyle does not make 8 Million this season…he makes 5.5 Million.

  841. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 2:44 am

    I would throw Marquez in that deal, but not Betances or Horne.

  842. Giuseppe Franco November 30th, 2007 at 2:47 am

    It’s not just about Beckett. It’s about Theo doing something for Santana that goes against the way they’ve done business the last few years.

    I don’t think the Red Sox are going to want to give up the young kids or commit to Santana for 6-7 years.

    They don’t make those kinds of moves.

  843. CB November 30th, 2007 at 2:50 am

    Chamberlain, Hughes and Buchholz are all players on a similar level. If you want to put ellesbury on that level fine.

    if the sox aren’t going to trade Buchholz or Ellesbury then they yankees don’t need to give up Hughes. They can sweeten their offer in other ways. If it took adding Horne I would do that (horne is a player the red sox can’t match if Lester and Bowden are already in the deal – Masterson is not in Horne’s class).

    I would try getting rid of marques first but would be willing to add horne in order to save hughes.

    With santana and keeping hughes the yankee rotation would be santana/ wang/ chamberlain/ hughes. There’s only one spot left open in addition to back up for injuries.

    They can find one other quality starter even if giving up kennedy and horne in the santana deal.

  844. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 2:53 am

    I still fel that involving a third team is the way to go on this. Lets say an Diego gets what they want…starters that would do pretty well in the NL West in big ball parks. Marquez and Karstens would do better than average there, and they’ve been asking about Igawa for more than a year. Not sure that DeSalvo will ever be much, at least in NY, but, in SD he might. Even if they toss in Bruney, along with the cash (say) even 4 mil over the length of the contract)which NY can make up by selling T-shirts that have a slash through Igawa’s picture and saying “Thank God He’s Gone), I’d buy one.

    NYY gets Merideth, Kouzmanoff goes to Minnesota (Headley goes to third base), NYY send Kennedy or Horne, along with Cabrera and if they take Horne over Kennedy, send them Gonzalez or Farnsworth with 3 mil paid on his final year. Tey let him go after the season and get at least a supplimental pick for him.

  845. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 2:53 am

    CB

    exactly, there’s no reason to go to the Hughes “level” add a different piece.

  846. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 2:56 am

    That quality starter might Mussina which isn’t a good idea. Getting Santana isn’t that big of a deal. If I were the Yankees, I’d stand pat with the offer of IPK, Melky, and Tabata. If the Twins want more pitching, then give them Marquez and/or Steven White. I just like what Horne has offer and his makeup. Coming back from 2 TJs and getting to the level that he is now tells u a lot about the person’s work ethic and belief in himself. It does help to have plus pitches, even though he loses command of those pitches at times.

  847. CB November 30th, 2007 at 3:03 am

    GreenBeret,

    I like that gist of that idea a lot because then the yankees would be dealing from strenght. Their strenght is that tremendous depth of right handed pitching.

    E-Roc,

    Hopefully that last spot will be Pettite’s. Mussina is not a good idea and I don’t like him in the rotation. But this would be the sacrifice. The issue with mussina is this – if either kennedy or hughes goes (one definitely would) then mussina will likely need to be part of the rotation.

    One thing lost in this entire conversation is Tabata. He’s an outstanding prospect. Yes he’s very young and hasn’t seen AA but his upside is much higher than lowerie or bowden’s. The twins are such good evaluator’s of talent they have to know what they’d be getting with tabata. He would be they’re first or second best position player prospect.

  848. Peter Rabbit November 30th, 2007 at 3:05 am

    Consider this:

    The Yankees won 93 games this year with a starting rotation that was in flux the whole year.

    Even without the Santana trade, the Yankees are better than they were last year.

  849. CB November 30th, 2007 at 3:08 am

    Phil,

    I agree – that’s hopefully where Cash steers this. The reported yankee offer is only for 3 players. I’m sure they did this as an initial offer for this very reason.

    By making it a 3 player deal right now they can up the ante by including one more quality prospect but saving hughes. They can put in a very good pitcher – horne, mccutcheon, marquez, betances (though I’d really try to hold on to betances). They could also put a brett gardner in there if the twins want more outfield depth. Or even a miranda. They have such depth something can be done.

    That’s the way I hope this goes.

    The coco crisp aspect of the sox deal has little value unless the red sox pick up all of this contract. That’s a real big difference as well – melky is perfect for the. he’s only a fraction of the cost and can play all three outfield positions.

  850. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 3:09 am

    I cringed when I saw Tabata’s name being involved in the discussion. I don’t want him to go. But I would rather have him go than AJax because of Tabata’s wrist problem. Wrist injuries tend to not heal really well for baseball players. I hope Pettitte comes back, but it doesn’t look like he will. That’s not a good thing. He’s the key because he eats innings and has a lot left in the tank.

  851. Phil November 30th, 2007 at 3:12 am

    David Ortiz had the same hamate removal surgery that Tabata had, and I think his wrists have seemed fine.

  852. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 3:18 am

    CB, true about Tabata. That’s a reason to keep him and Jackaon out of the deals. Jackson’s a center fielder and Tabata is a high end corner fielder that can play center, at least early in his career. The idea of bringing SD into the deal is getting something the Twins need…a real third baseman and NY gets a relief pitcher of some quality. Right now, the Twins, if Cabrera goes in the deal, they haven’t a use for any corner outfielders for a few years, but, they do have a cost controlled third baseman, at least one very good starter, they get a relief pitcher at low cost for a year that turns into a sandwich pick and only pay 3 mil for the year. Add in Gonzales. NYY Has the one thing everyone is looking for…right handed pitching. If this happened two years from now, NYY is swimming in top of the line infielders and pitchers, but, unfortunately, it’s happening now.

    I just don’t see giving up that much for someone that NYY could get for strictly money. Hell, if it meant extending Abreu, since he and Santana are friends, for two more years at 13 mil a year, I’d do it, in order to assure Santana ending up in NY and saving the kids like Kennedy, Jackson and Tabata.

  853. CB November 30th, 2007 at 3:19 am

    Losing tabata really hurts. He just seems like a natural hitter. I guess we have to wait and see – the curry article says “perhaps tabata” but definitely melky and kennedy.

    I think the bigger issue with tabata than the wrist is the fact that he hits such a high percentage of balls on the ground. He’s always hit an inordinate number of balls on the ground.

    That’s why he doesn’t hit for power. It may just be his natural stroke. Don’t know if that will be easy to change. Jackson’s shown very good power this year.

    The more I think about an offer of kennedy/ melky/ tabata the more I like it. There is significant talent there and its cheap. The twins will control the salary for all of them for a very long time. The yanks will put in a fourth guy.

    I’d put a four player deal forward on that order and let it ride. I don’t think the red sox will top it and I don’t think the twins will walk away for draft picks.

  854. PAT M. November 30th, 2007 at 3:42 am

    These are just intelligent and insightful comments from the more astute members,,,,ajaust about every possible angle has been offered…..I to say draw the line with Phil Hughes, Cano and of course Joba…..I hate to offer / sacrifice Ian but he’s gone along with the Melk-man and probably Horne …..Rgarding Bostons involvement, i see it as a cosmetic exercise,,,,There’s no way in hell they’re going to give away the few can’t miss players they have and then take out a loan with a leander to underwrite a 6-7 year deal for 25 mil per season….They don’t have that kind of juice……But what it’ll all come down to,,,,does Mr.Johan Santana really want to spend the next 6-7 years pitching half his games with a green monster sitting just a mere 300 to 350 feet behind him…..This is his one bite at the apple, and you know he’s going to make the best of it……Cashman just sit back stay in the game, then either fold, or seeand raise there bet,,,,,,,the plyers will fold their cards……just say no to Phil Hughes, there’s at least one Cy Young award awaiting him,,,,,hell he’s only 21, and he got his feet more than wet this summer and briefly in October,,,,,,just say no to Hughes….

  855. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 4:02 am

    Because I’m bored and can’t sleep, I’ve tried to clean up this three team deal involving NYY, SD and Minnesota. I’m only trying to work something that helps all, and, will not be offended by anybody if they tell me it stinks…unless it’s Kasey or BostonDave (then I’ll just ignore them). Here goes:

    What NYY has in abundance is a lot of good to very good right handed pitchers. A team like San Diego is in need of two things, pitching and a place to park Headley. They have Kouzmanoff blocking him at third. NYY offers up what they have most…pitching…They send Igawa, who they’ve been asking about since the middle of the year, Marquez, Bruney, and Karstens/Rasner and a mil a year to help pay on Igawa (NYY can get this money back by selling T-Shirts with Igawa’s picture with a slash through it, and saying, “Thank God He’s Gone”). NYY also gets Cla Merideth back in return.

    NYY sends Kouzmanoff, Cabrera, Farnsworth (along with 3 mil in cash – also same t-shirt deal), and either Kennedy or Horne. If they take Kennedy, that’s the end of the payoff. If they take Horne, they get one of Betances, Melancon or Sanchez.

    NYY Gets Santana and Merideth.

    Cuddyer goes back to left field, with his right fielder’s arm, Kouzmanoff plays third. They get starters and relief pitchers for now and down the road. Even throw in Gonzales or Betemit if you want (although, that may be over paying).

    Personally, I think Boston’s bluffing. If they can scare off NYY with a deal, and the Twins take it, then fine, Boston wins, Twins look like idiots and they hand Smith. If they turn down either deal, they lose and get two picks and a ton of pizsed off fans and politicians. With the NYY deals, they don’t lose on either one.

    NYY keeps their rotation in tact, and adds to it, helps their bullpen, clears excess from the 40 man roster and protects Jackson and Tabata.

  856. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 4:07 am

    ***that 5th line from the bottom is where Twins fans “hang Smith”.

  857. PAT M. November 30th, 2007 at 4:17 am

    It’s going to come down to where Johan wants to pitch….If the teams that are chasing the Twins are clubs that understand that it’s going to cost a lot of bread,,,Johan can take the Yankees bread, or Boston’s bread and so on…I’d be stunned if the Twinkies go to camp with still on the roster,,,,Cashman will draw a line in the sand and that’s it…..a veto by Santana to Boston, or to the Mets, leaves GM Smith with little options…Go back to Cashman’s line in the sand, and make the deal…..no Hughes, Cano, Chamberlain……

  858. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 4:26 am

    Pat, agreed. Boston’s playing a game of chicken, and can’t really lose right now. It’s Smith and Cashman playing poker with Epstein holding the dummy hand. Nobody knows what Epstein is holding. Personally, I think it’s the 2,3,4,5 and 7 of different suits. If the Boston deal is accepted as stands, he wins. Smith knows that and, he’s not going to stake his reputation on the main card being Lester. Lester has been clean of cancer for less than a year. That doesn’t mean that it won’t reappear. I know…I’ve dealt with it for the second time in two years. Any trauma can retrigger it. That means all they are left with is Crisp and spare parts.

    NYY can offer what the Twins are looking for if they can get SD interested, and, still save the kids..

  859. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 4:38 am

    There is one extra deal that could be made to what I have up, and, that’s to find out what the Indians want for Josh Barfield. He would be an upgrade or hole filler in San Diego (they are looking at trying to reacquire him, but, seem to be short). He could also be sent along to the Twins in that deal. The Indians weren’t overly thrilled with Barfield, and, they now have their own Cabrera at sencond base. That would free up the Twins to make an additional deal with either Casilla or Harris.

  860. PAT M. November 30th, 2007 at 4:56 am

    There was a rumbling out here in SO CAL that both the ANGELS AND THE DODGERS are getting fed up with their respective dealings with the Marlins FO,,,,,angels can come swooping in with talent, but do they lay out 125 mil or even more,,,,,THE answer is no……Next week all hands are exposed, and the real players will step up…..Stand firm ( much like the Johnson dealings back in the winter of 03….Cash really had it his own way with RJ,both coming and leaving NYC……

  861. BWH November 30th, 2007 at 5:03 am

    I’m holding out hope for no trade. Period. Peter made mention of it a while back, but spending upwards/over of $50 million on two players alone? The Yanks give up three (now maybe four?!?) young high potential, low cost players for one? If Santana, heaven forbid, goes down with an injury – does this make any sense whatsoever?

    I know that Brian Cashman is not a dope and I am by no means a GM, but this seems a little bit silly to me. Why not wait for one year until he hits free agency? If Santana has a no-trade clause and has a clear favorite place he would like to pitch, please Cash, just be patient!!!

  862. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 5:13 am

    Pat, that should surprise nobody that the Marlins are doing that. They may get stuck with holding the bag. The Twins are beginning to so the same thing….changing the asking price on a daily basis. They’re going to find out that sooner or later, just like Cinncy and Pittsburgh, nobody’s going to deal with them. You can only play both sides against each other so many times before they tell you to go screw yourself.

  863. PAT M. November 30th, 2007 at 5:23 am

    The defining momemnts in both Cashamns and Smiths’careers could be playing out in the next few weeks…..Who blinks first

  864. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 5:31 am

    Yep. Cashman could sweeten the pot and actually cost himself less in the bargain. By looking at some of the teams, SD and Minnesota, there are areas where they are void of cheap, good ready to go players. There are teams with things they could use, and pitching is one of them. That’s really NYY most usable commodity. You have three other teams that have something the other needs and only the acquisition of pitching is holding up the deal. Using Bobcat’s theory of falling dominoes, NYY could push the first one over.

  865. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 6:04 am

    I’d pass on Cla Meredith.

  866. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 6:19 am

    Meredith is a young nd pretty decent relief pitcher. He’s only part of the Kouzmanoff deal. You’re not going to get Heath Bell out of this deal.

  867. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 6:31 am

    I know Heath Bell wouldn’t be dealt, but I just wouldn’t trade for any of the Padres relievers not named Heath Bell or Trevor Hoffman. Just sign somebody like Marc Kroon.

  868. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 6:41 am

    Kroon has been a bust for nearly 14 years. I realize that you read the article and saw where is said he was registering 100 on the gun, but, I’m not buying that. I’ll pass on Kroon..you pass on Meredith.

  869. B November 30th, 2007 at 6:43 am

    “I know Heath Bell wouldn’t be dealt, but I just wouldn’t trade for any of the Padres relievers not named Heath Bell or Trevor Hoffman. Just sign somebody like Marc Kroon.”

    I wouldn’t trade for any Padres reliever unless they brought Petco with them.

  870. melky November 30th, 2007 at 6:51 am

    In the debate about Santana going to the Sox, two questions come to mind.

    How would Beckett, making 9 million feel with a pitcher coming in at double his salary. And how does Santana fare at Fenway, as a lefty in a fly ball ballpark.

  871. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 6:58 am

    Marc Kroon would only cost money and has gotten better command of his pitches since being over in Japan.

  872. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:05 am

    The object of the trade that I laid out wasn’t getting Meredith…It was getting Kouzmanoff to flip to Minnesota as part of the Santana package. NYY has things SD needs, and that is young pitchers and an interest in Igawa. Tey need to make room for Headley at third base.

  873. jonathan November 30th, 2007 at 7:15 am

    Buster Olney just reported on Mike and Mike that the yankees signed mark loretta

  874. ItalianGreco November 30th, 2007 at 7:24 am

    Why sign Loretta??? I hope this is not an indication that Cano may be involved in the Santana deal…..Loretta sucks!

  875. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:37 am

    I smell BS. The only way there would be a reason for that is because Betemit is part of a deal, not, Cano.

  876. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:37 am

    Loretta’s 2007 salary? $2.5 million according to sportsline.com. Betemit looks like $405K according to Cot’s.

    Maybe the NYY picked Loretta up as replacement to Betemit who at his price is within range for Minny as the 2d base/3d base piece to a Santana deal.

    Loretta doesn’t suck, he just doesn’t hit much and costs twice as much as Cairo and 5 times more than Betemit. But it’s the Yankees so I guess money doesn’t matter.

  877. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:39 am

    GreenBeret7:

    At 7:37 am. Great minds think alike.

  878. ItalianGreco November 30th, 2007 at 7:43 am

    He would be an ok addition as an utility guy I guess, but Betemit is better IMO.

  879. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:45 am

    If it had been done last night, it would have been on the wire services and sports internets by now. Somehow,, I don’t think anybody got up at 3 Am this morning and hammered out a deal.

    Right now, the only 2nd baseman in a deal is Kaz Matsui signing with Houston at 3 years and 15 mil.

  880. Mitchell's Eleven November 30th, 2007 at 7:46 am

    not only do we need registration on here, but we need some sort of “you must be THIS tall to get on this ride” marker between midnight and 8:00 AM. some posts from those hours are just absolutely torturous.

  881. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:47 am

    LMAO. Yeah, Murphey. It’s too early in the morning for such scary things like that.

  882. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:47 am

    ItalianGreco:

    Betemit is better at his price and that’s why Minny wants him. The Yanks can live with less from a UT if it means making the deal for Johan. Cano is pretty durable and Jeter plays even if his arms and legs are falling off.

  883. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:50 am

    The best thing NYY could do is trade some excess pitching to Cleveland for Barfield and to SD and get Kouzmanoff and lower the Twins price on Santana.

  884. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:50 am

    GreenBeret7:

    “If it had been done last night, it would have been on the wire services and sports internets by now. Somehow, I don’t think anybody got up at 3 Am this morning and hammered out a deal.”

    Agreed. Sounds odd that signing Loretta breaks at first light, but it is the Great Olney we are talking about. I haven’t found it yet myself…

  885. E-ROC November 30th, 2007 at 7:50 am

    Where is Loretta going to play? He’s an solid hitter, but his defense is average.

  886. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:53 am

    Exactly, Murphy. It’s nowhere to be found, and Olney doesn’t get up before the crack of noon.

  887. TurnTwo November 30th, 2007 at 7:54 am

    Loretta would play the role of a super utility guy, prob play all around the IF. He doesnt suck; he’s a very professional hitter, who provides solid defense.

    waswatching had a post that included an article about an offer that included Melky and Cano in a deal for Johan… maybe it has legs?

    i personally think if they have to trade Cano or Hughes, 2nd base is an easier position to fill than trying to find a young pitcher with the potential of Hughes. a by trading Cano, you prob allow yourself to keep Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata, who are the future CF and RF for the franchise.

    i can definately see Loretta as a 1 year option to Orlando Hudson, who hits the FA market after this season.

  888. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:54 am

    GreenBeret7:

    It’s possible for NYY to get other pieces from Cleveland and SD to improve leverage, but remember K.I.S.S., (Keep It Simple…). If the Yanks need to move fast to close deal with Minny, the more moving parts involved the harder it is to close. Opening other fronts and adding trade partners this late is problematic, NYY can’t afford to be held up for ransom by Cleveland and SD if they know NYY needs parts to get Santana.

  889. TurnTwo November 30th, 2007 at 7:56 am

    i believe Olney was quoting a report from the Denver Post, so if you are looking to confirm the sotry, you can check the newspaper’s website.

  890. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 7:56 am

    I don’t think that NYY is going to find anybody to fill Cano’s shoes, including Hudson. Hudson is nothing special. He’s Loretta 5 years ago in San Diego.

  891. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 7:56 am

    Couple of points – you guys have way too much free time. 800+ posts…??

    I skimmed through most of these and got the jist of it…

    For the most part, I’d have to agree with kasey… if hughes is the sticking point in the deal, then relent. But do it in a manner so that the Twins know no further upgrades will be forthcoming. Take it or leave it. Or pull a timetable a la Cash did with Damon and Boras. Santana upgrades this team for sure. Hughes will be good, but there’s always a question mark with prospects. How many of you can name me 5 #1 prospects in the last 10 years that have made a significant long term impact?

    A lot of you are saying get Haren or Kazmir if Santana fails. With the best pitcher taken (if Santana goes to the Sawx) and fewer good pitchers on the market, does that make Haren’s price go up or down? Consider Beane is the one negotiating – is he negotiating from a position of weakness or strength? From other reports, Bedard is a better option than either Haren or Kazmir. Haren because he benefited form a pitchers park and Kazmir because he has a history of injuries due to his violent arm action and unrepeatable release point which causes great strain on his elbow. His shoulder tends to also fly open a lot creating shoulder problems as well. If you get Kazmir in two years, you’re looking at another possible Pavano/AJ Burnett type contract. NO thank you.

    Also, I thought I’d repost some excerpts from Keith Law’s chat yesterday to address some peoples proposals/questions here:

    Ryan (NJ): Now that the Twins got Young, is acquiring a Melky or Ellsbury less important in a Santana trade?

    Keith Law: (1:08 PM ET ) They still don’t have a centerfielder, so I don’t think that’s true.

    ——————-
    Eric (Boston): Could a Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, and Masterson/Bowden for Santana deal be good enough for the Twins? The Sox wouldn’t really give him $150mil would they???

    Keith Law: (1:16 PM ET ) I think that’s a pretty good deal for the Twins, although I seem to be in the minority on that one. It’s a ton of value, including an everyday shortstop for the next six years (which they need, because Harris is a butcher there) and a potential #2 starter in Lester. I’d be a bit leery about buying into Santana now, given how poorly he ended the season. I’d rather acquire him and see how he throws in 2008.

    ——————-
    Seymour, Brooklyn: Please settle this argument – better pitcher – Lester or Kennedy?

    Keith Law: (1:36 PM ET ) I’d take Lester.

    ——————-
    Sunny (MD): Is Bedard worth a package of Kennedy, Melky and prospect?

    Keith Law: (1:51 PM ET ) Yes.

    ——————-
    Bryant U: Which has the more realistic potential Jackson or Tabata?

    Keith Law: (1:52 PM ET ) Have to go with Jackson, since Tabata’s year ended with the hand/wrist injury.

    —————————————————————————–
    Luis: In this crazy Santana, Haren, etc. world, What do you think should be the asking price for Kazmir?

    Keith Law: (1:53 PM ET ) No reason they should deal him. They don’t need to save the money, they’re starting to get good, and they have him through 2010.

    ——————-
    Brian (MN): Is it me, or did I miss something? Bedard is always hurt, Santana has never been hurt?

    Keith Law: (2:05 PM ET ) Santana’s had at least one elbow operation (bone chips). Bedard had TJ surgery, and an oblique strain; he had a full season in 2006 and no arm trouble in 2007. I guess I don’t see how he’s “always” hurt.

    ——————-
    Vinny (Bronx): Clippard, Farnsworth, Igawa, and cash for Haren?

    Keith Law: (2:07 PM ET ) We just keep getting sillier, don’t we?

    ——————-
    Billy Beane (Oakland): Do you think I´m that crazy (I can´t spell the exact word I´m thinking)? Haren for at least 1 prospect A-type & 2 B-type, right?

    Keith Law: (2:13 PM ET ) 1 of each, maybe. I’m a little bit of a Haren skeptic – ballpark and defense helped him a lot. He opens his front shoulder a bit and struggles to get the ball in on lefties, and he doesn’t have a definite swing-and-miss pitch. Good pitcher, no doubt, but more of a 3 than a 1/2. Whether other teams realize that or not is another question.

    ——————-
    Paul (Bird Island Mn): Crisp, laptop stealer, Jed Lowrie and Oscar Tejada for Santana too much too little or just right?

    Keith Law: (2:30 PM ET ) If I’m Theo, Buchholz is not in the discusion. That’s a dealbreaker.

    ——————-
    Phil Hughes: I’m the fourth best pitching prospect in the game behind chamberlain, kershaw, buchholz,in that order?

    Keith Law: (2:33 PM ET ) You’re not a rookie any more, so you won’t be on any prospect lists this winter, but yes, I would rank you behind those three guys.

  892. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 7:58 am

    TurnTwo:

    Thanks.

  893. TurnTwo November 30th, 2007 at 7:59 am

    here’s the story… doesnt look like its a done deal yet:

    O’Dowd is trolling for a veteran second baseman to create competition for as many as six internal candidates. The Rockies contacted the agent for Loretta, who tore up the National League West while with the San Diego Padres. However, the Rockies don’t like their chances, believing he will end up with the Yankees. While that deal is close, Loretta has made it known how much he likes the Rockies and would prefer to see how their second base situation plays out before signing with the Yankees.

  894. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:00 am

    Agreed, Murphy, except that Cleveland was dissatisfied with Barfield last year, and, now they have a Cabrera of their own at 2nd base. They’ll need to replace Lara, who was going to be part of the pen. San Diego needs a place for Headley this year. It would take a couple of days to do both and, finalize the Santana deal in Nashville. At worst, NYY has a first baseman and a tradable 2nd baseman if Santana falls through.

  895. SJ44 November 30th, 2007 at 8:01 am

    With all the saber rattling that went on yesterday, I get the feeling something is going to be decided shortly re: Santana.

    I don’t see this dragging out much longer. Teams have to go about the business of getting ready for the season.

    Upon reflection, if I am Cashman, I still hold firm with my offer (excluding Hughes) until it reaches the point to where a deal with another team is imminent.

    If it gets to that point, I turn to my owner and ask, “What do you want to do”?

    Whatever he says (Hughes stays or goes, for example), you do.

    This way, if it doesn’t work out, its the owners call and not yours.

  896. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 8:02 am

    The Denver Post article I saw buries a line about Loretta inside story on Torreabla, saying possible NYY signs Lorettta.

  897. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:04 am

    That’s probably Cash’s plan

  898. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:05 am

    Hold of on including Hughes as long as possible… but in the end I think Hank pulls the trigger. He won’t say no to the best pitcher in baseball with his second best prospect and a farm full of potentials.

  899. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 8:05 am

    SJ44:

    Agreed. Cash holds tight, waits till he sees the whites of their eyes and then it’s decision time. The extension is not the problem for the Yanks.

    GreenBeret7:

    Yeah, Cleveland/SD sounds more like a fall back position if Santana doesn’t lift off.

  900. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:06 am

    rather – He won’t say no to the best pitcher in baseball if it means holding onto his second best prospect and when he also has a farm full of potentials.

  901. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 8:06 am

    sunny615:

    I think Hank pulls the trigger too. Although he did show some serious guts playing chicken with Boras.

  902. SJ44 November 30th, 2007 at 8:07 am

    Folks really need to forget about getting Scott Kazmir.

    First off, the Rays are not trading with the Yankees. They wanted Phil Hughes for Ty Wiggington last year. What do you think they will want for Kazmir?

    The Rays needed a month to make the Young deal. These are people that move at a glacial pace, making them virtually impossible to deal with re: trades.

    The Rays, like the Orioles with Bedard, are not trading their ace to a team in their own division. They HATE the Yankees. Regardless of who is in the deal, they have no interest in helping the Yankees.

    It goes beyond stats. Its business. In both the Rays and Orioles cases, the Yankees take away from their business. Especially true with the Rays.

    Just as the Yankees and Red Sox won’t make deals between them, don’t expect the Orioles and Rays to trade their aces to the Yankees.

    Its just not going to happen.

  903. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:08 am

    right – which is why I think SJ is right about holding tight to the last minute and then going to Hank to see if it’s ok to include Hughes, move the deal and tell the Twins it’s a limited time offer, take it or leave it… don’t give them a chance to see if the Sawx will up their deal.

  904. gargoyle November 30th, 2007 at 8:08 am

    The Yankees should walk away from the table now. The Red Sox are bluffing and have no intention of paying Santana what he’s looking for.

  905. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:09 am

    I’d be really skeptical of going with Lester as the pitcher. It’s a cold hearted fact, but, this cancer deal would bother me for another year. It doesn’t take much in the way of trauma to trigger it again. A year down the road and he’s still clean, probably. I’ve done this twice now in the last year and a half.

  906. yankees62 November 30th, 2007 at 8:10 am

    SJ44

    Don’t you think the twins will demand that hughes be part of the equation? Why would they want kennedy knowing hughes is out there? just curious…

  907. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:11 am

    Kazmir no – but I could see Bedard, as the O’s GM (maybe it’s only in the local papers here in MD) said he’s willing to listen to all offers… but the Yanks would more than likely have to pay a higher price than other teams and unload half the farm to get him – in which case – it’s not worth it.

  908. Dan November 30th, 2007 at 8:12 am

    I’ll probably get flamed for this-but if the Yankees to trade Cano in the deal, perhaps Alberto Gonzalez could play 2B. During batting practice he always looked great there, and I believe his bat will come around a bit. Just an idea.

    That being said, I’d prefer if the Yankees did not trade Cano, but he would certainly make the deal a lot cheaper overall.

  909. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:13 am

    For me, Cano, Hughes and Chamberlain are deal breakers.

  910. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:14 am

    IF the sox trade Lester, you can bet the Twins will throw every test in their books on him to ensure that he’s ok for the long term before ok’ing the deal. If there’s even the slightest doubt, I’m sure the Twins will nix the deal… but if the Twins’ docs ok it, then they’re not going to refuse a potential #2 guy.

  911. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:15 am

    Joba and Cano for me, but not Hughes. I like Hughes a lot, and would be untouchable for almost all deals out there but he’s not untouchable for the best pitcher in baseball.

  912. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:16 am

    Now for somebody’s idea of a practical joke, read this and see who the starting package includes. That’s STARTING PACKAGE.

    http://www.northjersey.com/pag.....FlZUVFeXk2

    One person with knowledge of the Twins’ thinking said they had cooled to Melky Cabrera, but that a package including Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy could start the framework for a deal. However, the Yankees have been reluctant to put both young right-handers in a trade.

    The Yanks are willing to include 19-year-old outfield prospect Jose Tabata in talks, but are less inclined to discuss Austin Jackson, 20, who could roam the new Yankee Stadium outfield by 2010.

  913. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:18 am

    It would take more than a couple of days to run those sorts of tests.

  914. yankees62 November 30th, 2007 at 8:18 am

    sunny615

    Joba?? There is no way the Yanks are trading Joba. .NO CHANCE!

  915. yankees62 November 30th, 2007 at 8:19 am

    my bad sunny615 – read that wrong.. its early.. i apologize

  916. SJ44 November 30th, 2007 at 8:19 am

    Some people in here think I hate Phil Hughes. I don’t. Far from it.

    I don’t hate players. I make evaluations based on what I see and combine it with what I hear from baseball people to form opinions. There is no hate involved in the slightest.

    I just believe there are a VERY small handful of guys, true aces, who become available.

    When that happens, you have to strike.

    There is are Phil Hughes’ available in the draft every year. Last year, there were two….Rick Porcello and Andrew Brackman. The Yankees got one of them.

    When you look at the entire package with Santana….lefthanded, 28, healthy, competitive, good guy, Gold Glove, honestly, how many of those guys exist in the game?

    So, when you are faced with the prospect of getting him or losing him, especially to your division rivals, I am not of the opinion Phil Hughes should be the difference between getting him or not getting him.

    Folks who are projecting Hughes will be better than Santana in the next 6 years are dreaming. You have NO WAY to know that.

    He has been injured every year he has been with the Yankees. How do we know its not a trend? We don’t.

    The most important commodity in the game is young pitching. But, its not just for your team. Its to package them to acquire something better. Mainly, because young pitching is too unpredictable to know with certainty how they will pan out in their careers.

    I do know this much. I don’t see Phil Hughes outperforming Johan Santana in the next 4 years. That’s what I look at.

    I don’t care how long the deal is for Santana, the next 4 years are what’s relevent. That’s the window for Jeter, Posada and Rivera. The Yankees have plenty of money. That’s not the issue. The issue is, performance on the field.

    I don’t see Hughes outperforming Santana in the next 4 years, regardless of where Santana ends up.

    Look at it another way. If Hughes is traded to Minnesota, and is what folks think he is, he will be one year away from free agency 4 years from now.

    Guess what? The Yankees could go after him at that time if he is an ace-type starter.

  917. Joe from Long Island November 30th, 2007 at 8:24 am

    SJ44 – Your comment at 8:01 was one of the more sensible things I’ve read over the course of this thread.

    AT this point, it’s a matter of who will call who’s bluff first. If Cash really believes that Boston has no shot at landing Santana (Greenberg says he won’t approve a trade to Boston, whatever), then there’s no need to include Hughes in a deal; that would be losing Huhges’ (potential) production for a one-year rental of Santana. In that case, you wait for Minny to cave in, or you wait for the trade deadline in July, or next FA time.

    If you have reason to believe that Boston is a serious and realistic threat, then you do just what you said, go to your owner and ask if they want to pull the trigger.

    It seems most logical scenario.

  918. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:24 am

    No problems 62…

    Never said that you did sj… but I agree with you and kasey and some other folks here… hughes is good and I like him, but you include him if it means you get santana. No question.

  919. murphydog November 30th, 2007 at 8:24 am

    I read an interesting line in some story about all this, can’t remember which one. It was something like: “Prospects are suspects until they prove otherwise.”

    Hughes has shown mixed things, all of the bad things subject to explanation, but the fact is he hasn’t been all good. I know that’s an impossible standard, but that’s the standard a prospect pitcher has to meet to be spared in a discussion of trade for one of the best if not the best sub 30 year old lefty pitchers in baseball. Obviously it’s a close call, but NYYs think Joba meets it and Hughes does not. Or, at least NYY thinks they can afford to get this close call wrong with the other kids in the minors who will all move up one if Phil goes.

    In any other scenario, Hughes is an untouchable. In this one, he’s not. I’m not saying that you should force Minny to take Phil over IPK, but if they want Phil for Johan, gotta let him go.

  920. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:25 am

    Some info on the Boston package: from the NYPost:

    As for the Boston prospects, a Yankee official described the 23-year-old shortstop Lowrie as a “Dustin Pedroia-type player who might be better at second base” and likened the 6-foot-6, 250-pound, 22-year-old right-handed Masterson to Jeff Nelson. Michael Bowden, 21, another pitching prospect who is in these discussions, was termed “a power right-hander.”

  921. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge November 30th, 2007 at 8:26 am

    Master Wangkee
    November 30th, 2007 at 12:52 am
    Back to my source…he says

    Kennedy + Cabrera + Tabata + a lower level prospect is the offer.

    Your source? You mean what has been written everywhere? Every article on the internet? Every newspaper article?

  922. LathamJoe November 30th, 2007 at 8:27 am

    If both Hughes and Kennedy are included with Melky, that certainly would be too steep a price to pay on top of 6 yrs/$150 Million.

    ESPN reported that the Yankees are speaking with Mark Loretta? Can’t imagine why they would seek Loretta unless they were:
    Including Betemit or Phillips in a trade package.
    Including Cano in a trade package (Not happening!)

    If Loretta is their answer to 1B – ouch!

  923. Mo November 30th, 2007 at 8:31 am

    Loretta may play first.

  924. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:32 am

    From Sherman – to those of you hesitant on including Hughes – should give this a read and some thought:

    After the 1997 season, the offer the Yanks would eventually use to land Chuck Knoblauch (Eric Milton and Cristian Guzman) was deemed inadequate, and Pedro Martinez went from Montreal to Boston for Tony Armas and Carl Pavano. After the 2003 season, the Yanks decided they would rather use Nick Johnson for a young pitcher they believed had upside, and worked with then Montreal GM Omar Minaya to land Javier Vazquez while Curt Schilling went from Arizona to Boston. After the 2005 season, the Yanks were too worried about the state of Beckett’s shoulder and let the righty go from Florida to Boston.

  925. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:34 am

    For those interested in Bedard (from the BaltSun):

    Contract extension talks between the Orioles and Erik Bedard stalled yesterday, increasing the likelihood that team officials will spend part of next week’s winter meetings contemplating trade offers for the ace left-hander.

    “We’ve had some conversations. We spoke again today, but I’d say that we’ve cooled in that area,” Orioles president of baseball operations Andy MacPhail said of the negotiations with Bedard’s agent, Mark Pieper. “We’ve gone on to other things. It doesn’t mean that [negotiations] can’t or won’t be started again. It just means that they’ve cooled for now.”

    “I think Bedard fits in nicely with [Jeremy] Guthrie and [Adam] Loewen coming back as your first three guys in the rotation,” Orioles manager Dave Trembley said yesterday. “But like Mr. MacPhail has said, we’re in a position that we have to listen to all offers. But obviously, Erik Bedard has shown himself to be a bona fide No. 1 in this league.”

  926. A-Point November 30th, 2007 at 8:35 am

    When did Lester, who I didn’t think was all that great, now become a #2? I don’t think he’ll be any better than a #3 pitcher and think that is a stretch.

    Cereal Boy isn’t all that either. Between him and Melky its a wash.

  927. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:35 am

    Baltimore Sun article if anyone’s interested.

  928. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:36 am

    Seymour, Brooklyn: Please settle this argument – better pitcher – Lester or Kennedy?

    Keith Law: (1:36 PM ET ) I’d take Lester.
    ——————-
    Eric (Boston): Could a Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, and Masterson/Bowden for Santana deal be good enough for the Twins? The Sox wouldn’t really give him $150mil would they???

    Keith Law: (1:16 PM ET ) I think that’s a pretty good deal for the Twins, although I seem to be in the minority on that one. It’s a ton of value, including an everyday shortstop for the next six years (which they need, because Harris is a butcher there) and a potential #2 starter in Lester. I’d be a bit leery about buying into Santana now, given how poorly he ended the season. I’d rather acquire him and see how he throws in 2008.

  929. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:38 am

    Coco Crisp costs $10 mil… I would think that would be a bigger concern to the Twins that who’s marginally better Leche or Crisp.

  930. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:38 am

    Then again, Keith Law isn’t the most objective hack….err…writer when it comes to the Yankees.

  931. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 8:41 am

    He’s a Jay’s boy for sure.

  932. Mo November 30th, 2007 at 8:43 am

    In regard to Loretta, he is a career .298 hitter, with a .362 obp. He killed us in his one year with Boston. In a lineup with a ton of RBI machines and .290+ hitters ,a guy who makes contact and reaches base with that regularity may be more valuable than lets say, Betemit running into a few homers between K’s.

  933. GreenBeret7 November 30th, 2007 at 8:51 am

    Well, Loretta could be the latest version of Miguel Cairo, with a little more punch and a lot less speed, but, definately better than Betemit, who never impressed me. He would have been better off just hitting from the left side. He’s a black hole from the right side.

  934. ellen November 30th, 2007 at 8:52 am

    Wow! Pete’s on vacation and his blog gets 900+ posts!

  935. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 8:57 am

    I am hoping this means Betemit may be going somewhere

  936. Mitchell's Eleven November 30th, 2007 at 8:58 am

    SJ – It seems like the Rays’ style of doing business may have changed over the winter. If they still continue to be lacking pitching depth, why not take several of our second tier guys for Kazmir? Something like Kennedy, Horne, AND Marquez would solve some needs real quick for them. They’d be completely without an ace, however, but do they honestly need one right now?

  937. TurnTwo November 30th, 2007 at 9:01 am

    QUIT THINKING ABOUT KAZMIR. ITS NOT HAPPENING.

  938. J. V. - Yonkers November 30th, 2007 at 9:02 am

    The authority on all things Boston (Gammons) acknowledges that a re-work of Beckett’s contract is necessary should Santana go to Boston. Don’t do it and it invites dissention.
    The meat he doesn’t reveal is what this also does with Boston’s position with the luxury tax.
    Also unsaid is the necessity of picking up Manny’s 2009 option. The whole baseball world knows that Boston’s run production is centered around Ortiz / Ramirez and breaking it up means mediocre run support for any Boston pitcher, Santana or no Santana.
    Boston may think they’re cute in trying to paint the Yankees in a corner with Hughes in a Santana deal but in reality they’re cooking their own financial goose.

  939. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 9:02 am

    The Rays just picked up Garza. Maybe they are trying to solidify a rotation. It makes sense for them to trade one ace for a few decent guys. The need a big number of average stars, one ace will do nothing if the bullpen cant hold the lead.

  940. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:05 am

    Right, so by that logic, if another teams hands off some of their “decent guys” to us, we’d happily give the Chamberlain.

  941. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:06 am

    From SI.com’s John Heyman on the Santana Sweepstakes:

    Here’s how the Santana Sweepstakes currently shake out …

    1. Yankees. They have the money to pay Santana and the prospects to get a deal done, even if they don’t include untouchable sensation Joba Chamberlain. The Twins likely will try to pry Phil Hughes from the Yankees, who hope a combination of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and other prospects will suffice. The Yankees are suddenly well-stocked in the minors, with pitchers Alan Horne, Daniel McCutchen and Kevin Whelan and outfielders Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. Odds to land Santana: 2-to-1.

    2. Red Sox. The Twins are pressuring Boston to include center field prodigy Jacoby Ellsbury along with World Series-clinching pitcher Jon Lester in a four-player package. However, with Boston refusing to budge on no-hit wonder Clay Buchholz, the Red Sox may have a hard time convincing the Twins to do a deal without Ellsbury. Boston also has decent second-tier guys, such as outfielder Brandon Moss, pitchers Michael Bowden and Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie. They can’t have the desperation of the Yankees, who are playing catch-up, though. Odds to land Santana: 5-to-2.

    3. Angels. They possess the prospects and the wherewithal needed. But they appear to be more focused on a hitter — namely Cabrera — at present. Odds to land Santana: 10-to-1.

    4. Dodgers. They certainly have what it takes. But they are suggesting publicly — first in the Boston Globe, then the L.A. Times — that they want to keep their top prospects and may do nothing more. Odds to land Santana: 15-to-1.

    5. Mets. With the Twins trading young pitcher Matt Garza and adding young outfielder Delmon Young from Tampa in a six-player trade on Wednesday, there’s now even more need for pitching and less need for outfield help, which is what the Mets have in surplus. New York has no starting pitchers to trade, and it has rebuffed the idea of moving either David Wright or Jose Reyes (good for them), so this looks like a non-starter. Odds to land Santana: 20-to-1.

  942. LathamJoe November 30th, 2007 at 9:06 am

    Its been said many times before, Kazimir is not going anywhere, especially to the Yankees.
    Why would they give up a 5-tool player for a starting pitcher and then trade away their lefty ace?
    Tampa Bay will be scary in two years!

  943. YankeeGM November 30th, 2007 at 9:09 am

    Peter –

    You make the statement that Lester is a bit better and more proven than Ikky; their minor league nums beg to differ:

    H/9 – Lester 7.99, Kennedy 5.62
    K/9 Lester 8.31, Kennedy 9.97
    ERA-Lester 3.33, Kennedy 1.87
    WHIP-Lester 1.31, Kennedy .97
    BB/9-Lester 3.78, Kennedy 3.14

  944. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:12 am

    I think the ML numbers matter more than minor league numbers. And since Kennedy has all of one month of ML experience and Lester is 11-2 in 27 starts, Lester gets the nod.

  945. TurnTwo November 30th, 2007 at 9:13 am

    Boston may have the pieces to force tha Yankees hand here a litte, but there is no way I see Boston shelling out the cash for the extention. I just dont see that happening.

    If I’m Cashman, I hold firm and call the bluff…

    … and then I hope that Bobcat continues to have good news for me this afternoon!

  946. Catherine November 30th, 2007 at 9:13 am

    No my logic wouldn’t apply to us. The Rays are small market. They need to stay afloat in th AL east. One ace won’t do that. It seems to me they should use Kazmir to try and rebuild their pen. They wont trade him to us though, and they seem to be focusing on their rotation

  947. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:14 am

    From Buster Olney’s blog – something interesting regarding Theo and Cash:

    There are a lot of factors involved in these talks, including the desire of ownership, so it’s possible that the Red Sox could finish the deal. It’s possible that the Steinbrenners will push for Santana. But I would bet that if you gave truth serum to either Boston general manager Theo Epstein or Yankees GM Brian Cashman, they would tell you that they secretly hope the other team winds up giving up the boatload of prospects and dollars for Santana — because doling out this kind of package in prospects and money is not something Epstein or Cashman believe in, philosophically.

    I’d bet if you gave Cashman and Epstein truth serum, they would admit that they would prefer to package prospects and trade them to Oakland for Dan Haren, the 2007 AL All-Star starter who would be a much more cost-efficient acquisition because he is under contract for only $16.25 million (including an option for 2010) over the next three years.

    But Epstein and Cashman have to stay at the Santana table, playing this game of pitching poker, because their rival is staying at the table.

  948. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:17 am

    If the Rays get another long term starter who can go at least 6, it takes more strain off the pen. Kazmir is under control until 2010. Garza, even longer. They’re making a team that can compete. They’re not going to unload their #1 just to upgrade a part of the team that is usually filled with vets who couldn’t make it as a starter. The pen is always an issue and the Rays face the same issues as the Yanks do in upgrading the pen and with the recent acquisition of Percival, they’ve done that too.

  949. sunny615 November 30th, 2007 at 9:19 am

    Also according to Heyman at SI – the Mets have the lead on Haren:

    The Mets have a better chance to land A’s right-hander Dan Haren because the A’s appear to like the Mets’ young players better than the Twins do. Vaunted A’s GM Billy Beane is one who’s still known to covet Lastings Milledge and Mike Pelfrey despite their initial big-league struggles.

    In trade talks between the Mets and A’s, Oakland named the young Mets players that interest them in a potential Haren deal, and it’s believed to be all the A-teamers: pitchers Pelfrey and Kevin Mulvey and outfielders Milledge, Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez.

  950. Rob NY November 30th, 2007 at 9:50 am

    i dont care if Lester is 11-2 and has a bloated ERA….. he can win seven games with a 4.5 era the same way Randy Johnson can win 17 games for the yankees…. by giving up a lot of runs and having the boheamoth offense behind him score more

    Lester as a #2 is pure hype

  951. Old Yanks Fan November 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am

    For those who are amazed at how stupid the Yankees were for paying ARod $275m+, you might want to read: http://tinyurl.com/3xsz7t, written by: http://tinyurl.com/2m7mbl.

    While anything is possible, anyone who has really followed the Red Sox closely knows that this Santana deal, due to the cost in prospects, dollars and years, is the very type of contract they typically avoid. If you consider that Santana will probably put them over them luxuary tax threshold, Santana could have a real cost of $30m+/yr (compared to Dice-K currently at $17m/yr…. and people in Boston are wondering if he’s worth it).

    Beckett has a Career ERA+ (adjusted) of 116 (compared to Wang at 119). His career WHIP is 1.228. His 2005-2207 ERA+ numbers were 118, 95 and 145. (Santana was 155, 161 and 130 over the same 3 years). Maybe Beckett will continue his 2007 quality, maybe not. He is a very good pitcher, but there are many who are better. The Sox control him for 3 more years.

    Gammons used to be a great reporter, but is in serious decline, especially since his health problem. And of course with the internet, more insider info (Gammo’s specialty) is more readily available. He is also a terrible Red Sox schill. Anything he’s says about Boston (and ergo the Yankees) should basically be ignored.

    Considering the cost to replace prospects, and a 6-7 year contract, Santana will cost the Yankees considerably more then ARod. He is a great pitcher, but IMHO, this deal is too expensive as constructed, especially if Phil is included.

    It’s amazing to read over 1000 comments on this blog and not see the term ‘WinShares’ mentioned once, and especially ‘Winshare per dollar’. It’s also OK to back opinions with Stats, and adjusted stats like VORP, ERA+, EQA and OPS+ are especially nice. Career numbers are nice, but the last 3 years and player age might be more telling.

    For example, how many WinsShares will Santana produce compared to Hughes over the next 6 years? Whatever that difference is, the cost will be about $200-$250m.(Santana salary – Hughes salary plus replacement costs for Melky et al).

    Well… lets see. For 2005, 2006 and 2007 (WS / 3 = Wins)
    Santana. 23-25-18 = 22 wins
    ARod…. 37-25-39 = 34 wins
    FattyMC. 29-34-30 = 33 wins
    Jeter… 24-33-26 = 28 wins
    Cano…. 12-18-21 = 17 wins
    Sabathia 13-14-24 = 17 wins
    Haren… 15-15-19 = 16 wins
    Beckett. 14-12-19 = 15 wins
    Wang…. .7-17-16 = 13 wins
    Moose… 10-15-06 = 10 wins

    Will Hughes next 3 years (4 WS in 2007) be as good as Moose’s last 3? If so, he produces 10 wins to Santana’s 22, or 4 wins/yr.

    So the annual equation is: Santana (4) >? Hughes(0), Melky(0), Tabata/Horne (??), AnyoneElse (??) + $20m.
    That’s IF Hughes is ONLY as good as the last 3 years of Moose.

    While we all revere pitching, it is about TEAM pitching. When you only play 32 games/yr, you only have so much impact. Would you trade ARod(34) for Santana(22) straight up? Rather have Santana(22) then Miggy Cabrera(33)? Is Santana(22) worth 2 Canos(17)?

    Now, Winshares are not the perfect stat, but it does tell us sometime. And this is guesswork, but at least gives us some value for comparison of how many WINS a player might singlehandedly bring a team. Accordingly to WinShares, ARod singlehandedly won 11 games for us in 2007. Sound crazy? About right?

    The Sox had the best pitcher of his generation, a guy named Pedro… although he never saw a WS with the Sox.

    Pedro–: Age 23-28: ERA+ 193, whip 1.00+/-
    Santana: Age 23-28: ERA+ 154, whip 1.05+/-

    Pedro was the BEST. Santana is still GREAT and one of the best. I guess my point is it takes more then one great pitcher to make a great baseball team. And if we were ready to live with losing ARod, we will probably survive not getting Santana.

    When considering what Santana might really cost ($25m + prospects value + luxury tax), one might examine what else we could buy with that money if we stayed pat with our inexpensive youth.

    I would love to get Santana (who wouldn’t) but he is just one of many, many possible options over the upcoming years. The Yankees have been in ‘decline’ of late, especially considering their payroll, because for the last 7 years, they have made deals for ‘brand name’ players, and paid ‘peak dollars’ for guys based on past performance. Cashman has started to turn that around by passing on these guys (although missing Beltran was a mistake) and investing in the farm and signing high risk/high reward youth (Joba being the prime example) and using the $$ power to exploit the international market for both prospects and existing MLB talent.

    Our 1996-2000 dynasty was build on the farm… Jeter, Mo, Po, Pettitte and Bernie and suppplimented with some solid players and some name brands. But the ‘core’ was developed inhouse. Between 1996 and 2004, they developed nobody. 2 years later they had Wang, Cano and Melky. Now we have Hughes, Joba and IPK. AJax, Sanchez and Horne are around the corner (as well as other pitching talent) and Miranda, Tabata and Montero bode well for 2009-2010 and beyond.

    Emotionally I don’t like the Santana trade. Intellectually, I’m torn. We have no crystal ball, and I don’t think:
    Santana > Highes, Melky, Tabata + $150m.
    Santana > IPK, Melky, Horn, Tabata + $150m.

    Yelling “SANTANA IS THE BEST PITCHER IN BASEBALL” is not really good criteria for a business transaction.

    Many articles about this trade happen to come from Minn. newspapers. I wonder how valuable that info is? Biased? Manipulative? ESPN is decidedly Red Sox friendly (lead by Mr. Gammo himself). All info on this trade is leaked for specific purposes (as Bobcat has said over and over and over). There has been, and will be, tons of ‘junk’ written before this is over. It has about as much value as ‘board talk’ between professional poker players and the promises I made to Pamela Anderson.

    My opinion (worth 2 cents) is:
    1) The TWINS has almost nothing to say. Santana has a full NTC and calls the shots. He can decide NOT to extend his contract/renegotiate with anyone the TWINS have him talk to, essentially killing the deal. It is Santana’s decision, not the TWINS. What the TWINS say and want have ZERO value.

    2) The Sox have no real interest in Santana (at the talked about prices). Everyone wants him. Everyone would take him cheap. But this will be one of the most costly deals in MLB history, and no one will take it lightly. This is just not the Sox style.

    3) The Yankees are pitching rich on the farm but do NOT have a lot of position players. AJax and Tabata are their 2 best… especially considing we have an old OF and JD and Mats are gone after 2009. I hate to lose either player. Average to very good OFs are worth $10-$15m/yr these days. These 2 guys may be worth $100 – $150m over their first 6 years.

    4) Minn does NOT want any expensive players. Crisp is NG. They don’t want to pay $5m/yr for a guy that could be as good in a year for $300,000/yr.

    5) The Twins just got an impact LMB palyer in D. Young. They may get another for Nathan. I think they would like a stable of young, cheap pitchers. I would offer Melky and/or Gardner (if he has any value) and/or The AT (if HE has any value) and 4 pitching prospects.

    6) Offering Hughes/IPK, Melky, Horne (who many think has a better upside then IPK) and Tabata is offering 4 of our top 9 youth. Would this be considered ‘gutting’ the farm?
    Lose 3 or 4 of our TOP 10 and pay $25m/yr?

    As a personal note, I find the level of arrogance and rudeness here to be disturbing. kasey, what can I say? Please… seek professional help.

    Put your money where you mouth is time: (my answers)
    1) Do you think ARod is more valuable then Santana? (way more)
    2) Over the next 3 years, how many more WINS annually for the Yankees does Santana produce over Hughes? (4)
    2a) from 2011-2013, how many more WINS annually for the Yankees does Santana produce over Hughes? (2)
    3) Take you answer to #2/2A, and considering Melky, Tabata, $75m, how smart is it to trade Hughes.. or make the trade even with IPK? (No..and… maybe, only because we are rich)
    4) If we don’t get Santana, how do you spend the (approx) $35m/yr he will cost us? (Too much for me to think about)

    P.S. Spelling, grammar, literacy and lines between paragraphs are not a bad thing.

    P.S.S. Pete… you’re doing a GREAT JOB!!!!
    But registration should be considered an absolute MUST. You will NOT lose any quality traffic.
    Also, an edit/review feature would be really helpful.

  952. jc November 30th, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    November 29th, 2007 at 7:30 pm

    SJ 44 …… We obviously disagree on Hank Steinbrenner’s public persona, and his impact on the Yankees’ baseball decisions/talent evaluations. But I notice that you are parroting the main thrust of my earlier post (which you excoriated), to wit: the Yankees cannot afford to allow the Sox to pair Santana with Beckett for at least the next three years. I said a few hours ago that the Yankees’ decision-makers (whoever they are) are backed into a corner because of that fact. They MUST bundle whatever prospects are needed to close the deal.

    The Sox aren’t bluffing, meddling, or raising the ante. They have given up Hanley Ramirez, they have paid a $51 million posting fee. They will pay a fair price for difference-makers. They realize that getting Santana is a kill shot, and they are going for it. I expect the Yankees to counter (there will be no Carlos Beltran frugality – not on Hank’s watch), but the price (in prospects) will almost certainly be very high.Quote
    Brian(Red Sox Fan),Look The Red Sox Brass gave the Dice-K signing one big shot and they are not paying him 25 million dollars a year!Papi makes 12mill,Beckett 10 million,and Schill 8 million a year(all cheap signings) and now they are going to pay a 6 ERA Fenway Park pitcher,a not good against the Yankees playoff pitcher,and a not an overwhelming playoff pitcher 25 million dollars a year?!They realize Santana is a kill shot?Are you serious?They are stat geeks and sabremetrics geeks up in Boston and there is no way that they are laying out that kind of money for someone who will be a bust like that!He is a lefthanded pitcher who has a 6 ERA in Fenway and a spotty record against the Yanks in the playoffs,that is a kill shot to the Red Sox!Not with the success they have had.This is most definitely a bluff,because I want to see Theo and Lucchino give him some wacky Red Sox signing of 22.2 a year for 6 and see him say no.If they sign him,they will know what it is like to get Vazquez,Johnson and Contreras but only in reverse.

  953. Mitchell's Eleven November 30th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Can we please stop acting like we know exactly what a GM is going to do? Posting something like “KAZMIR IS GOING NOWHERE. IT’S NOT HAPPENING” is just silly.

    There are differing opinions between us armchair GMs here. Mine is that they’s still got plenty of holes, and we’ve got plenty of pegs to fill their holes with. If we’ve got pitchers that can make Hughes expendable, we’ve got pitchers that can make Kazmir expendable. Of course, this is pure armchair speculation on my part.

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