If one lefty goes, another lefty is needed
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Nov 30, 2007 
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It sounds like Andy Pettitte is serious about retirement. Jorge Posada said so yesterday and Andy’s father went into even more detail to the Times.
If that’s the case, you have to think it would increase Brian Cashman’s desire to get Johan Santana. Not only would the Yankees need a front-line starter, left-handers are so valuable at Yankee Stadium.
Feel free to debate the merits of trading for Santana all day. But I won’t be around. I’m finishing up vacation and have some family in the city for the weekend. I’ll be leaving for Nashville on Sunday and will start blogging from the Winter Meetings that night.
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If you missed the video of Tony La Russa getting pinched for DWI, here it is. It’s not pretty.
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Thanks to the NFL Network, all sorts of bars must have made money last night. Some that didn’t even intend to.
I caught the Packers-Cowboys game at the bar of the Legal Seafood restaurant in my neighborhood. Hanging with a buddy, we were having a drink and watching the game when this Packers fan at the end of the bar started yelling at the TV on every play like he was sitting at Lambeau Field.
Now Legal is a classy place, not a sports bar. But it was late and the manager on duty was too nice a guy to tell the Cheesehead to pipe down. After a while, it got kind of comical. This guy was literally screaming at the television and cursing T.O.
“Come back next week,” the manager said with a laugh. “We’ll have peanuts on the bar and 10 cent drafts.”
Have a great time – bring back some good info!
Thanks for blogging on your vacation.. This is the best yankee blog by far. Its because of you big guy!
Thanks, Pete. This place is the best.
So what? The Yanks still got Kei Igawa
.
what kind of vacation is it that you get up before 8 to update you site??? just kidding thanks for giving me a place to rant and rave. Considering where the yankees are going, im surprised andy hasnt signed on yet, maybe he just feels its time to throw in the towel and after what he’s done it wouldnt bother me at all, i’ll miss him, in a related story the knicks are awful….
LaRussa pled guilty in all likelihood because he would have gotten jail time if he went to trial and lost.
He was asked to perform standard field sobriety tests and he couldn’t get the alphabet right, was off balance, didn’t follow directions precisely…. that plus the fact that he was asleep at an intersection with the engine running and his foot on the brake. That’s bad.
His Blood Alcohol Content was 0.093 and while that’s not a world record (I’ve seen .36 on a living person), believe me, he was plainly impaired. It can happen to anyone I suppose, but he’s lucky he got probation and the judge didn’t want to make an example out of him as a public figure. In NY, especially outside Manhattan, I’m not so sure he gets that same deal.
BTW, I was pleasantly surprised by the food at Legal Seafood.
Put Cano in a deal for Santana. We keep more prospects because we’ll have to give up les with him in the deal. Use the prospects to get a 2nd baseman and keep the big three in the rotation. I don’t care about future batting title champs, I care about October and having the best pitching. Even without him, our lineup is the best in the majors.
Two things: 1. If I’m the Yankees, I would offer Pettitte something like the Clemens-can-go-back-home-when-he’s-not-pitching plan.
Heck, I’d even pay some of the flight costs.
2. I sent an e-mail with Pete about this, but maybe it got caught in his Spam filters.
“You may be interested in this short piece in today’s La Prensa (Panama’s leading daily), about Mariano Rivera attending the funeral of Carlos “Chico†Herron, a Panamanian ballplayer, coach and scout who “discovered†Mariano in the early 90s (Herron was a scout for the Yankees at the time).
The link is here:
http://www.prensa.com/hoy/panorama/1191157.html
In case you don’t read Spanish, the blurb says: ‘The pitcher Mariano Rivera praised the baseball and human achievements of manager Carlos “Chico†Herron yesterday, during the funeral of the coach and discoverer of the closer of the New York Yankees. [Mariano] said that he learned discipline from him [Herron].’”
I think the fact that Cano is going to make alot of money very soon would scare Minny
How’s everyone’s blood pressure this morning? I hope Boston aint gettin’ Santana.
From SI.com’s John Heyman on the Santana Sweepstakes:
Here’s how the Santana Sweepstakes currently shake out …
1. Yankees. They have the money to pay Santana and the prospects to get a deal done, even if they don’t include untouchable sensation Joba Chamberlain. The Twins likely will try to pry Phil Hughes from the Yankees, who hope a combination of Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and other prospects will suffice. The Yankees are suddenly well-stocked in the minors, with pitchers Alan Horne, Daniel McCutchen and Kevin Whelan and outfielders Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson and Brett Gardner. Odds to land Santana: 2-to-1.
2. Red Sox. The Twins are pressuring Boston to include center field prodigy Jacoby Ellsbury along with World Series-clinching pitcher Jon Lester in a four-player package. However, with Boston refusing to budge on no-hit wonder Clay Buchholz, the Red Sox may have a hard time convincing the Twins to do a deal without Ellsbury. Boston also has decent second-tier guys, such as outfielder Brandon Moss, pitchers Michael Bowden and Justin Masterson and shortstop Jed Lowrie. They can’t have the desperation of the Yankees, who are playing catch-up, though. Odds to land Santana: 5-to-2.
3. Angels. They possess the prospects and the wherewithal needed. But they appear to be more focused on a hitter — namely Cabrera — at present. Odds to land Santana: 10-to-1.
4. Dodgers. They certainly have what it takes. But they are suggesting publicly — first in the Boston Globe, then the L.A. Times — that they want to keep their top prospects and may do nothing more. Odds to land Santana: 15-to-1.
5. Mets. With the Twins trading young pitcher Matt Garza and adding young outfielder Delmon Young from Tampa in a six-player trade on Wednesday, there’s now even more need for pitching and less need for outfield help, which is what the Mets have in surplus. New York has no starting pitchers to trade, and it has rebuffed the idea of moving either David Wright or Jose Reyes (good for them), so this looks like a non-starter. Odds to land Santana: 20-to-1.
Geesh, if I wan the Mets, I’d send Jose (0-for-September) Reyes in a heart-beat. They have no pitching and Reyes is a problem.
If it takes Cano, I’d rather move him than Hughes and IPK together.
But if it’s one or the other pitcher from those two, plus Melky and a prospect, stick to your guns.
although, moving Cano might preserve Jackson and Tabata should they decide to go that route… and 2B are much cheaper to trade for or sign than high ceiling young pitching, or young, 5 tool OFs.
I hope Andy comes back. I know he wants to be with his kids, but it’s not like he has an office job that he can take off a few years and then return to. He’s an athlete. You’re only young once.
Where are you Bobcat?
~Adam, I agree. Reyes was awful the second half last year, bad attitude, and it seemed to get worse at crunch time, the end of the season. Either they get him an attitude adjustment, and fast, or they should deal him while he still has perceived value.
and I really believe, as it sounded like Posada was alluding to…
if Johan is in Pinstripes, Pettitte will come back.
No Johan, and I think Pettitte retires.
TurnTwo, you’ll be very, very, very hard-pressed to find a second baseman of Cano’s skill anywhere. The outfield is a much, much deeper position and you have a better chance of getting a solid outfielder than you would a 2B of the same offensive capabilities.
From Buster Olney’s blog – something interesting regarding Theo and Cash:
It’s been said that the trade for Santana will require one of the following three:
Cano, Hughes, Chamberlain
Trading any of those hurts, but a trade of this magnitude is supposed to hurt both parties.
Now, trading Chamberlain is insane. Chasman and Steinbrenner won’t do it. He’s become an instant icon of the yanks, and the sky is the limit for him.
Which leaves the issue of Hughes or Cano.
The only reason Hughes is not in the same spot as Joba, is that he has not pitched as aggressively as Chamberlain. He is still learning to pitch in the MLB. It’s widely believed that he’ll be a top-of-the-rotation pitcher in a few years, though. And let’s remember that his ERA in the last part of the 2007 season is excellent, and he was the only winning pitcher for the Yanks in the postseason.
A lot of predictions put Cano winning a batting title not so far in the future. I think that he is above-average defensively, but he tends to drop the easy plays. His upside is certainly his bat, provided that he stays disciplined at the plate.
So, it is a tough choice, not likely to be decided by abilities alone. To me, the real question should be: if you are Cashman, who would you have the toughest time replacing down the road: Cano or Hughes? For 2008, you don’t really need to replace any of them: Bettemit can fill the role at 2nd base and the rotation would be very competitive. But in a couple of years you may need to find either a second baseman or a pitcher. When you phrase it like this, the answer becomes obvious. An infielder is relatively easy to find in the market. Finding a pitcher of the caliber of Hughes, however, is going to cost you blood and some (think of Santana…). So, if I were Cashman, I would put this on the table:
Cano, Ian Kennedy, and a prospect (Tabata?) for Santana.
It blows the BoSox’s offer out of the water, and frankly I believe that the Twins wouldn’t find a better offer anywhere.
From SI.com’s John Heyman on the Santana Sweepstakes:
Here’s how the Santana Sweepstakes currently shake out …
Also according to Heyman at SI – the Mets have the lead on Haren:
From Sherman – to those of you hesitant on including Hughes – should give this a read and some thought:
Some info on the Boston package (from the NYPost):
For those interested in Bedard (from the BaltSun):
Pete,
I have a way to save the Steins a hundred million dollars.
All they have to do it not trade for Santana and they save at least that amount of money.
To justify not getting Santana one only has to cite Shakespeare, who said something about those guys with the lean and hungry look (like all those young pitchers).
I know those Steins are gentlemen, so I am sure they would be willing to give a reward to someone who saved them all that money. Say a million???
But now I don’t have their telephone number and I know you do. So how about you giving them a call and passing on the info. We could split the million.
On D Ball
Sunny,
Heyman posted that days ago… The odds he came up with were based on initial package offerings. I firmply believe the Sox are teh favorites to land him…
Even the mom’n'pop, ham-n-egger tv and radio stations up here in East Buzzard’s Breath, Maine, on the shows that NEVER talk sports unless their teams have just won a championship, are all buzzing about Santana and the possible acquisition.
One idiot reporter for WABI channel 5 called him (will try to spell it phonetically) ‘Yoo-han’ Santana…
Awful way to wake up, no?
we wont trade 2 of the trinity…
Yanks to get Lorretta? That would mean Robbie would probably be involved in any deal. Olney just reported it and there are other Yankees blogs reporting it as well. The deal doesn’t seem as sweet if Cano is involved but hopefully that would mean no pitching involved as well. It would be tough to lose that kind of production in the lineup.
Traditionally, you dont need a slugging 2B… the position is usually reserved for players who contribute solid defense, and can provide speed and some offense at the bottom of a lineup.
Cano’s role on this team is an important one, but it is a luxury on this team… what you are counting on for the position can be found in the market (see: Mark Loretta).
Without Cano, this team is still going to score runs. Plus, you keep your best 2 positional prospects, and you probably keep your holy trinity of pitchers.
Without Santana, you still have the same problems you did last year in the rotation, which might actually be worse because you might not have Pettitte this time around.
I’ve been to Legal Seafood when it was in the Paramus Park Mall (or was it Garden State Plaza). However I had the same thing last night.
I’m at the bar waiting for my trqain and this one Cowboys fan was either screaming out what play should be made, screaming at the ref, or screaming “YEAH BABY!!!!!”.
Not that this is a classy place (typical Union NYC pub) but still TV IS ONLY ONE WAY COMMUNICATION A$$HOLE!!!!!
Oh well…the Guinness was exceptionally fresh though.
Tell Smith to crap or get off the pot. Pull the plug on this deal or move on.
andy pettitte is a baby. who the hell retires at 35?
Shamus – don’t worry. I really don’t think the red sox will pay him…
Shamus, I think it’s posturing to get the Yanks to up their offer to include Hughes. If Hughes replaces Kennedy, I think it gets the deal done. Cash should ok that deal.
Loretta is 35/36 years old. Interesting, if Olney’s report is true. Hits around .285, has a good glove. A bat from the right side.
Would they carry him and Betemit as back-ups or is Cano out the door to save the so-called “Big 3″ young arms?
this is all posturing and spin.
I refer to Buster and I don’t think he’s far off when he says:
But I would bet that if you gave truth serum to either Boston general manager Theo Epstein or Yankees GM Brian Cashman, they would tell you that they secretly hope the other team winds up giving up the boatload of prospects and dollars for Santana — because doling out this kind of package in prospects and money is not something Epstein or Cashman believe in, philosophically.
But I think Hank is enamored enough with Santana to get Cash to include Hughes and get the deal done.
And, if Loretta is Cano’s replacement, so much for getting a younger team on the field. Only Melky would be under 30 (depending on the 1B).
But you get younger in the rotation, with your solid positional prospects a season or 2 away, which coincides with the expiring contracts of the veteran players who are currently slated to be on the field for 2008.
Can you imagine having to be the starting pitcher like Wang and Loretta and Jeter playing 2nd and short, and the ball being hit up the middle? There’s about a 30-1 shot that if Wang doesn’t flag it down, it’s a hit.
frits – Brad Radke, apparently.
TurnTwo – I just don’t see the logic in that. You would give up one of the best second baseman in the game simply because he’s a “luxury”? Why on earth would you NOT want to put the best possible team out on the field and score as many runs as possible? So you would trade him and replace him with a league-average, all-around mediocre 2B, and for what, the opportunity to hold onto a pitching prospect that may or may not yield results at all?
Don’t read too much into the Loretta thing. More likely than not, it means either Wilson Betemit is being dealt or Andy Phillips is getting DFA’d. Loretta will not be the starting 2B next season, rest assured.
wow….talk about people being reactionary this morning.
do you honestly think that the New York Yankees, in 2007, would field a team with Mark Loretta starting at second base? stranger things have happened, but signing Loretta makes me think he’d back up at second and short, and that would be the end of it.
can we please stop the “we HAVE to do THIS!” and “we HAVE to WIN EVERY OCTOBER!” posts? this is beyond old, and is bringing out the absolute worse in Yankee fans.
I am equally a New York Yankee and Miami Dolphin fan and am perfectly fine with taking lumps in the name of doing things the right way in the end.
For god’s sake, Fins, beat the Jets this weekend….
Keep cano – if you have to trade him, put a WIZARD there…
if it’s going to cost just as much to sign santana now as it would when he’s a free agent , the yankees should wait until all they have to pay is money.
if the red sox are willing to give up a lot of young talent and pay santana free agent money on top of that, let them. what they gain with santana, they will lose somewhere else.
santana,or any one player, doesn’t operate in a vacuum. he didn’t get the twins to the playoffs because he wasn’t surrounded by enough other good players.
arod was the best player in the game. he didn’t get the yankees past the first round of the playoffs. it’s the whole army ,not one soldier.as it stands now with the one year later development of chamberlain, hughes, kennedy, cano, melky etc. the yankees are in a strong position if they do nothing.
in building a team, the rule should be that if you pay free agent money that’s all you should pay. anything over that and you are weakening the team.
if the red sox over pay with money and prospects to get santana, they will have shot their wad, and with them out of the picture the yankees would have the high end market to themselves to make changes to compete with the red sox. they wouldn’t have the red sox bidding on the next player being moved because he was too expensive to stay with his small market team. with red sox out of the bidding no overpaying would be necessary.
santana may simply rather play in new york than boston. the yankees should let him know somehow that if he waits, the money will be there.
Loretta makes sense, he can play all positions in the IF, is right handed and gets on base. Great player to be a 4th infielder and come off the bench
Loretta has a deal to start for the Rockies and other teams though and said he is going to wait and see what happens in NY so I am guessing he won’t sign here if Cano stays. I don’t think he is coming here to be a guaranteed utility man, he’ll sign somewhere that gives him a shot at starting.
dont we have a util man in Wilson Betimit?
You’re not just giving him up… you’re obtaining the most precious commodity in the sport for that price.
and, obviously, if you are building an offer around Cano, it is to protect the big 3 pitchers who could combine with Johan and Wang to be the most dominant starting 5 that the Yankees have put together in years.
I think of Loretta more highly than a mediocre 2B… he’s solid defensively, and for what this specific team needs from the position at the bottom of the order, he hits for a solid average and will get on base at a high percentage to set the table for Damon, Jeter, Abreu, and ARod.
you arent just giving away a luxury… you’re trading a luxury to get THE precious commodity in the sport.
migames, Loretta only makes sense as a utility player, not a full-time second baseman, and, in no way, shape or form is Betemit a full time player on a contending team.
The Loretta signing is a good one. Even if it has nothing at all to do with a Santana trade, he’s still a great utility guy.
The conspiracy theorist in me says:
Kennedy
Cano
Melky
SP Prospect
RP Prospect
Santana
Nathan
Wilson B is a great utitlity man
Greenberet, you might want to read his comment again.
I wonder if the Loretta thing is a smokescreen to get the Sox to think the Yanks have offered Cano and drive up the price
Wilson Betimit cant play all infield positions, where as Lorreta has. he has played 1b, 2nd, SS and 3rd
For the last 3 years’ Loretta has made very few errors, because he has no range. If he doesn’t flap his arms at least every hour, the medicos come out to see if he’s still alive.
Dude, thats an interesting thought… maybe the Yankees include Cano in an expanded deal to also get Nathan.
not we’re just getting a little stir crazy here with no real news on the subject, but its fun to speculate, right?
If we get Santana and Nathan w/out giving up hughes or joba, i am dancing thru the streets
Or i will be doing naked pull ups
Yeah, Wilson sure kicked butt as a utility man for the Yankees. What was his average…..220 was it? With below-average fielding at every position?
Nah, he’s great…………
yanklifer, you’re probably right. Just as it’s making everyone here freak out, it might be having a similar effect on the Sox FO. Hadn’t thought of that.
I would love Nathan
What position cant Wilson play? Second… i think he played short for us last year…
I read the remark, but, he has little use on the team with Betemit here, and I seriously doubt that will make a trade difference by including Betemit to save Hughes.
Where the SAM HOLY HELL is BOBCAT? And can someone post a link to the Loretta bit. Been up and online an hour (reading last nights posts) and I don’t have ESPN Insider.
Maybe someone kinder, and richer, than me can paste Olne’y report on here? I’ll buy ya a beer for it?
Try riveraveblues.com is where I read it first than saw Olney said it on the radio. I don’t think he has written on it yet.
Loretta report: http://mvn.com/mlb-transaction.....s-loretta/
wilson doesnt play 1b
I think it was on SI or AOL too but I really don’t remember where I read it.
“andy pettitte is a baby. who the hell retires at 35?”
i’d retire at 35 if i could. i’m sure my boss would give me some counter-offers to stay, as well…
Well, Betemit can provide the Twins with power from 3B. Something they don’t have with Nick Punto there. They want to give their 2B prospect, Alexi Casilla, a chance. At least, that’s as far as I know. I’m sure they’d welcome Cano, but they would just as soon take Wilson Betemit as a cheaper alternative. Everyone knows the guy has potential, and that all he needs is a place to play every day.
Everyone sees him as a utility player, but the reality is that he’s been blocked from an everyday role on just about every team he’s played for, and it has hurt his production. He’d be a good fit with the Twins.
I honestly see no reason why a package of Ian, Melky, Betemit, and Horne wouldn’t get the job done.
swo –
Willy B had 24 RBi in 37 games, that projects to over 100 rbi in season… What would you like from a guy how does not play every day? And he can play alot of positions…
Strikeout numbers on the other hand…. not good
If Cano goes there don’t you think the Yanks try to get Casilla? He isn’t to bad more of a Luis Castillo type player than a Cano type but would be a good 9 hole hitter.
mark loretta has a better zone rating than Wilson in all positions.
Maverick- agreed. Saying that Cano would go in a deal doesnt mean that its Santana for Cano, and no other players are involved. I’m sure the deal would be expanded to include other players coming back and forth, just like the Delmon Young/Matt Garza deal.
How much are the Red Sox in love with the massive talents of Coco Crisp. They’ve supposedly offered him to San Diegio for Chase Headley.
Comaduce – stick me in the Yankees lineup and I’d get some RBIs eventually. I don’t really buy that argument, sorry. Not to say that RBIs are overrated, but it is not a good indicator of a player’s individual performance.
IMO the Santana deal should be centered around Cano, which would trump anything the Sawx are currently talking about. However, if Ellsbury and Bucholtz are included that might change.
I’ve said it before, young 6′ 5″ power pitchers don’t come along that often.
Pete,
In your opinion with all that we know and probably the more that you know, what are the chances that Andy Pettite will be named in the Mitchell Report?
“Yanks to get Lorretta? That would mean Robbie would probably be involved in any deal.”
or Betemit. Loretta is a utility guy at this point.
hmmm, if that is true, I would think Cano is gone already.
SWO – you have a good point, but my point is you cannot expect alot from a guy who does not play everyday… He is not going to hit for average. But at least WillB contributed with RBI
mark loretta career zone rating:
897 1b (higher than giambi)
803 at SS (higher than Jeter)
825 at 2b (cano is 831)
he isnt that good at 3rd, but im guessing Arod will be playing most games there
What are Zone ratings…
hmmm,
That could be true my thinking was 1) Betemit would be of little value and really nothing more than a throw in 2) Loretta probably could start on a few other teams and wouldn’t want to come here to back up Cano, Jeter, and ARod who are all going to play 150+ games
“How much are the Red Sox in love with the massive talents of Coco Crisp. They’ve supposedly offered him to San Diegio for Chase Headley.”
if this trade happens, wouldn’t that take them out of the santana sweepstakes? they’re not going to trade ellsbury and minny needs a CF. unless boston has there eyes on a free agent CF?
Does every position have the same size zone?
“I’ve said it before, young 6′ 5″ power pitchers don’t come along that often.”
neither do .300/.350/.500 hitting second basemen with plus defense.
ZR=Zone rating. The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive “zone,” as measured by STATS, Inc.
I dunno how it works, but it’s basically a fielding statistic. The higher, the better.
Vader,
I agree. I would center the deal around Cano, and the twins could also justify it to their fan base as getting an all-star in return while we do not lose hughes
“That could be true my thinking was 1) Betemit would be of little value and really nothing more than a throw in”
don’t think Betemit has little value b/c he had a mediocre 87 ABs with the Yankees. he has value.
right after Cashman traded for him, several GMs called him immediately asking for him.
look at 3B for the Twins. Betemit would be a massive upgrade for them.
he’s not going to be the centerpiece, but he has value.
If the Twins are money conscious, then Cano doesn’t make sense for them. If that young infielder they have, Casilla, is any good, they keep him and get the OFs.
What is the higher commodity? Also on a team that is not starving for offense what is the better deal? You have to give to get, I would not even talk about moving Cano, but you’re talking about the best left-hander in the game.
Loretta is not going to play fulltime it has nothing to do w/ Cano, this is improving defense and may even mean Matsui or Betemit is getting traded, Cano some part time DH and Loretta part time 2B
“wilson doesnt play 1b”
sure he does.
I hope we get some news today – we need so much bullpen work… I am not willing to wager my season on Farnsy
I would love to be able to stay and carry on this conversation, but I need to get some work done. I will check in with you guys later. Hopefully, there is some good news by the end of the day/weekend.
You can’t project Betemit’s numbers out and declare, “he would drive in 100 runs”.
No he wouldn’t. He strikes out too much to be an everyday player. That’s why he isn’t one.
The biggest mistake stat junkies make with players is to take small sample sizes, project them out over a full season, and declare that player is “valuable”.
Some guys simply aren’t everyday players. Wilson Betemit has not shown to be an everyday player in any of his stops thus far in his career.
He also has to lose about 20 pounds or he isn’t playing ANY middle infield position for anybody.
Let’s not overvalue guys just because they wear pinstripes.
At this point, Betemit is a spare part and nothing more.
NYY has enough excess good, young pitching to swing a deal with San Diego, also to get Kouzmanoff moved in a deal. Cleveland will be looking for a replacement for Lara and they are disgruntled with Barfield, who’s a major disappointment, besides having his replacement in place now with Cabrera. Some one of the relief variety that NYY has (Farnsworth + 3 mil) could get him and put him into the Twins hands.
If I was the Twins I would ask for: Kennedy, Cano, Melky, Betemit for Santana and Casilla. That would give them a starter plus upgrade there offense significantly. That is a lot to give up for the Yanks but it makes the Twins definately improved and is better than any package the Sox would give up w/o Ellsbury
hmmm,
Yeah you’re right but I just didn’t see Betemit being thrown in as a substitute for Melky, Horne, Tabata, Jackson etc.
SI.com – Haren available –
Beane wants
from Sox center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury — who’s currently the sticking point in Boston’s bid for Santana — plus either of two top young pitchers, Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester.
from Yankees The A’s are believed to have their sights on one or more of the Yankees’ three top young pitchers — Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy.
from Mets among those expected to interest Oakland include pitchers Mike Pelfrey and Kevin Mulvey and outfielders Carlos Gomez, Fernando Martinez and perhaps Lastings Milledge.
I wouldn’t be so quick to write Betemit off just yet. It’s not that he hasn’t succeeded in an everyday role, it’s that he was always BLOCKED. And the one time that he DID play every day (for the Braves), he did quite well.
Besides, the scouts are still enamored with his power potential. All the Yanks have to do is play that up and that could save them a prospect that they would have otherwise been reluctant to deal.
Also:
The Yankees appear willing to form a package for Santana that includes Kennedy and young center fielder Melky Cabrera, but they’ve been resistant to date to substitute Hughes for Cabrera. While the Yankees have made Chamberlain untouchable, the Twins may be holding out at least for Hughes, the second-rated young Yankees pitcher.
Kennedy and Hughes?
Loretta is being looked at as just an upgrade over Phillips… nothing more. He probably stays in Colorado anyway. Cano is not going anywhere.
I can’t see the Twins agreeing to a package like Kennedy, Horne, Tabata, and Melky and saying to Cash “No way do we do that deal without Betemit being included also” That is why I classify him as a throw in
I don’t see why the Yanks move Farns? They aren’t going to sign many bullpen arms if any. I know we have some young guys who may be penciled in but you can’t go into a season with all young arms and Mo. Farnsy is a very reasonable contract right now considering the deals flying around for Romero, Riske, Linebrink, etc. Why would they give up a decent arm, reasonable contract and pay him to play somewhere else. Its basically a 1yr/5mil deal right now which is nice.
No way do the Yankees trade Kennedy and Hughes for Santana…no way. I was thinking that IPK could be the key player but now with this posturing by the Red Sox and Twins, I think Hughes days as a Yankee are numbered. Hughes, plus a CF (Melky or Tabata) and 2 2nd tier SP/RP prospects are probably enough to get it done whereas earlier I figured Kennedy in that package would do it.
so the twins want Kennedy and Hughes instead of Kennedy and Cabrera or Hughes and Cabrera… I don’t know if I can pull the trigger on that one. That’s iffy… but if no one else is included… have to mull that one.
I’d probably say no – my best package would be Hughes and Cabrera (plus Tabata)… take it or leave it.
i’m not putting both of them in the deal. either/or, plus additional prospects.
What is a better deal for the Yanks
Hughes> Kennedy+Horne
Kennedy+Horne> Hughes????
I would keep Hughes and Send Kennedy and Horne. JMO
sunny615 – i think the twins are gonna want more pitching if they unload Santana and Nathan… so I see more pitching prospects in the package (instead of tabata or melky.
I’m also in the minority that would rather send Hughes than Kennedy if it meant keeping Tabata and Jackson.
sj:
“The biggest mistake stat junkies make with players is to take small sample sizes”
No they dont, they raise red flags with small sample size and its why they dont boo arod after going 0-4
hmmmmm:
wilson has played a total of 14 games at 1st. Its like saying matting can play 2nd because Billy Martin put him there once.
The Twins sound as though they are getting a bit desperate to get a deal done with the Yankees if they are now upping the talks to be Hughes and Kennedy.
Seems to me that is not going to happen.
Some of this is posturing for position. Don’t buy it. And the RS might not mind getting Santana but they won’t part with the pieces, nor would they be likely to do the signing of the extention.
With all this chatter going on, I bet the deal is just about done.
The Yanks are better off keeping just Hughes rather than keeping Kennedy + Horne. Quality over quantity, in my opinion. Remember that they have pitching talent in the low minors too, including Dellin Betances, who has more potential than Kennedy or Horne could ever hope to have.
I agree. Either Hughes OR Kennedy will go in the Santana deal, but not both. No way. One thing to remember. If Sox and Twins agree to a deal, the Red Sox must satisfy Santana’s contract demands, and if they do, how do they explain to Josh Beckett paying Santana more than twice as much as he is getting? THey’d have to extend Beckett about 3 more years at at least the same as Santanna and maybe more.
Why do people seem to think Matsui is going to get traded? Its a little difficult to trade players with full no-trade clauses in their contract.
It’s silly to say that if Pettitte goes he has to be replaced with a lefty. Pettitte doesn’t make lefties uncomfortable and has always made his money burying the ball on a righty’s hands.
migames,
When somebody takes Betemit’s RBI and projects them out over a full season to reach the 100 RBI conclusion, that always is a red flag to me.
Biggest mistake people make when evaluating players.
The Yankees were also talking to Chris Gomez a few weeks ago. They want another veteran utility guy. Perhaps because they can move Betemit and upgrade the bullpen.
Interest in Loretta and Gomez has nothing to do with Cano.
Legal Seafood is still at Garden State.
I’m hoping the signing of Loretta is for super Utility guy and Wilson is gone!
One is not equal to 14. The truth is that Betemit has not played first base alot, but he looked very good at first during those 14 games. He CAN play.
I remember seeing Mattingly play a few games at 3B, also. I believe it was either ’86 or ’87. He played very close to the line and back-handed everything. It was fun to see him field the ball then whip around and fire to first.
“wilson has played a total of 14 games at 1st. Its like saying matting can play 2nd because Billy Martin put him there once.”
yes, and he was perfectly fine. the balls from SS were not sailing by him. the balls hit at him were being fielded. he made a few great plays.
he can play 1B.
i’ve seen it happen.
i’m not sure what you are saying, that he’s not a gold glove 1Bman? fine.
but he CAN play 1B.
Why would the twins not ask for Hughes and Kennedy?
If the yankees agree we’ll then see a ton of rumors that the red sox have given in and have put buchholz in the deal.
So then the twins are going to says we can’t to the deal with only kennedy. We need hughes and chamberlain or hughes and cano.
This is just negotiations.
This is why the yankees can’t have a sky is falling mentality about santana going to the sox. They have to make a rational offer and stick with it because you know the twins will ask for every ounce of talent they can get.
The twins have little leverage. Ultimately all they’ll be able to do after all this posturing is make a decision to take the best package or take a shot with santana and let him walk.
If they keep santana they have to keep nathan – you can’t sell the idea to your fans that we’re keeping santana to take a shot but we’re trading nathan because he’ll be a free agent.
Nathan makes $6 million. Even for one year he’s unbelievably valuable. They will get a ton for him. They’ll get a ton for santana.
They are going to give all that up because they aren’t happy that the yankees wouldn’t upgrade kennedy to hughes? or the sox won’t put buchholz/ ellsbury in the deal?
The sox are going to trade buchholz or ellsbury. Buchholz, ellsbury, chamberlain, and hughes are a plane above the prospects both teams have offerred.
If the sox don’t offer buchholz and ellsbury the twins can only get the yankees to give up hughes if the yankees panic.
That’s what the twins are trying to do right now. Good for them. They should. That’s bill smith’s job.
But ultimately santana has to be traded and the yankees have the depth of prospects at the kennedy/horne/ tabata level to get this done.
Yeah but Betances is the true definition of a prospect, having never pitched in anything but short season ball. He could fly through the minors like Joba or be off the radar in no time in all. He reportedly has great stuff but only time will tell with a guy like him
Fernando – The only landing place for Matsui that makes sense to me is the LA Dodgers. They would probably be interested and he would be reunited with Torre.
I think Heyman made a mistake actually. I think it’s supposed to be switching Kennedy and Hughes, not Hughes and Melky. That is just too much of a jump in value.
“from Yankees The A’s are believed to have their sights on one or more of the Yankees’ three top young pitchers — Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. ”
if this were true, swap kennedy for Haren and back out on Santana.
i actually believe that if the yankees backed out on santana, the sox would back out too. i don’t think they want to pay Santana the money.
he can play next year in minnesota and then become a FA.
w/ Minny screwing around w/ us I’d say this
Kennedy and Melky (Tabata is off because of your delay take it or we’re done)
Bedard Talk
migames
November 30th, 2007 at 10:44 am
sj:
its why they dont boo arod after going 0-4
________________________________________________
Since when?
meant to say the sox are not going to rade buchholz/ ellsbury
Maverick,
Everyhting I have read on Betances is that he is very raw and is not expected to move quickly throuhg the system. While his ceiling is very high, he is a long ways away. Will probably move through the system 1 level, 1 year at a time.
I met a marketing guy once who said Matsui makes the Yankees so much money that when his contract was up they basically gave him a blank check and that it would be a terrible financial move if he ever left New York. I don’t know if he was lying but he seemed legit
Maverick you we have the best player in the world locked up in Alex Rodriguez trust me Matsui can go and it really won’t hurt us
Andy Pettitte is not hiding in a Pacific cave. He’s up to speed with what the Yankees are doing and knows he can have an affect, Santana or not.
One more year away from family is nothing compared to the rest of his life. He needs to call Cashman so the GM can proceed with plans. He’ll still be home for Christmas like any year. A simple yes or no will do but do it soon.
Brandon – I agree with your premise on the field, but Matsui rakes in the dough overseas. He is a national figure in Japan.
I just heard the Yanks have tons of money coming in through Japanese ad revenues and deals with Japanese media outlets that pay for his contract several times over and then some.
i’ve read that the yankees make somewhere between $3-6M/year from japanese marketing deals.
i read this in an article about how Boston has not reaped any of the same benefits Boras promised on Matsuzaka.
so far the Sox have made an extra $900K from japanese marketing deals.
Mike R. it’s extra cash and NY does rake it but I’d bet they would be willing to sacrifice it.
sj
“When somebody takes Betemit’s RBI and projects them out over a full season to reach the 100 RBI conclusion, that always is a red flag to me.”
yes, i agree, but dont group stats head into that group. Stats head dont put to much weight on RBI. My grandmother can drive in 100 runs with playin for the yankees
hmmmmm
Sure, anyone can play 1b. Wilson has played 1b in 14 games, including milb. My argument is that I would rather have loretta as 4th infielder because he gives you more flexibilty than wilson based on expierience. 195 games is better than 14…
SJ44,
Projecting out over a full season is dangerous (I agree), but if you look at his career stats, Betemit is basically the equivalent of Joe Crede at the plate. He is a seriously flawed player, but he is also an asset.
Also, the guy has a ton of power. Did you see in one of his first games when he was batting from the left side and launched a homerun over the wall in death valley?! that’s remarkable.
“Brandon – I agree with your premise on the field, but Matsui rakes in the dough overseas. He is a national figure in Japan.”
right, but overseason revenue is divided 30 ways and shared by every team.
It was also reported by Pete Caldera- link
Been reading;
Nathan + Santana is a mega deal. Yanks would have to sell the farm. That’s a Hughes, Kennedy, Horne, Betances, Melky, Tabata/Jackson deal. Nathan is actually a lot more valuable on the trade market than Santana. He’s cheap, fairly young, signed, and good. They don’t need to sell the farm for Santana which is why we have all this posturing. The Twins are trying to get everything they can out of Santana because they know ultimately, they don’t have much bargaining power.
Ultimately, I don’t think the Sox will pay Santana or give up the prospects. And, if they do, they’ll have to pay a larger ransom to re sign Beckett. I don’t think they’ll do that, cuz they don’t need to do that. They already have great pitching and adding Santana would net them a negative.
That Yankees need Santana a lot more than the Sox do and that’s the only bargaining power the Twins have. Cashman has been planning this thing for years probably, I don’t think he’s about to let Santana go to the Sox without forcing them to pay a King’s ransom in prospects for him.
My theory- Santana doesn’t improve Boston enough to justify what they’d have to pay. In fact, they might be better if they held onto their prospects. Cashman knows this, he knows they’re bluffing. He’s not going to knee-jerk and up the offer.
Right now I’m guessing Kennedy, Horne, + prospects. Twins are trying to get Hughes to replace Kennedy in that deal. Cashman is probably offering Hughes + nothing else special, or the Kennedy + Horne deal. It’s quality-vs-quantity and the Twins want both.
hmmmm – I didn’t know that. Are you sure?
This is Beane were talking about here – Kennedy for Haren? I wish… I would think his starting price would be Hughes …
Bobcat – Any truth to the names that Pete Caldera has been throwing around?
wow, if the twins really want both those guys in the deal, i would walk away. i’m all in favor of having hughes or kennedy head one of the deals, but giving up two of them is too much.
I wouldn’t include Betances in a deal unless I’m getting Albert Pujols.
Mike,
Yeah I just looked up an article on it. The merchandising and TV deals get split up between all clubs but the Yanks get to keep all advertising revenue which Boras said was upwards of 21 mil but the Yanks said that was not true (I’m sure its not coming from him).
They’ll be some backpeddling by fans and media no matter what the outcome is of a Santana deal.
“I knew it all along”, “I told you so”, “They gave up too much”, “It’s about time”, “They’ll miss so and so”, What were they thinking ?”, yada-yada-yada.
actually, this reflects exactly what Bobcat said last night — the Twins will raise their offer, the Yankees will lower theirs and they meet in the middle. The Twins are asking for Hughes and Kennedy in the hopes that the Yankees finally agree to include Hughes.
Would Nathan flip out if he was not closing in new york???? He is an accomplished closer.
Victor,
I think all fans will be alright if Joba, Cano and Hughes are not involved.
Many will be angry if only Hughes goes and everyone will be upset if both Hughes and Kennedy go. But every outing that Hughes does well and Santana struggles next year will bring out the crazies saying ‘I told you so’
here is the article, but it has been archived:
http://www.bostonherald.com/sp.....id=1045741
if you can get to the article it says Matsui is worth about $3-6M/year to the yankees.
“Would Nathan flip out if he was not closing in new york???? He is an accomplished closer.”
i could be wrong, but i think he is a yankee fan. he might be happy setting up for Mo knowing he’d inherit the role.
“This is Beane were talking about here – Kennedy for Haren? I wish… I would think his starting price would be Hughes …”
no, i agree. that’s why i said “if that article was true”.
Haren is a long shot.
sunny615
November 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am
It was also reported by Pete Caldera- link
One person with knowledge of the Twins’ thinking said they had cooled to Melky Cabrera, but that a package including Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy could start the framework for a deal. However, the Yankees have been reluctant to put both young right-handers in a trade.
The Yanks are willing to include 19-year-old outfield prospect Jose Tabata in talks, but are less inclined to discuss Austin Jackson, 20, who could roam the new Yankee Stadium outfield by 2010.
“The three [main] guys they get [for Santana] are not going to be ones you read about in Baseball America,†one AL observer said. “It’ll be three guys you’ve seen on ‘SportsCenter.’ “
____________________________________________________
That’s crazy. Not only do they want Hughes and Kennedy, but, now the want Rodriguez?
STOP RIGHT NOW CANO IS GOING NOWHERE
The Loretta deal simply highlights the fact that Cashman is simply filling the holes they have in the lineup.
It could mean Wilson Betemit is now in the deal to replace Bartlett.
or The Twins simply want a Richie Sexson bat without paying the 15 million dollars and are now looking @ Shelley Duncan to be their DH.
Subtracting Morneau and Mauer’s occasional DH at bats, the Twins DH slot posted .258 6HR 52 RBI in 450 abs.
Even the worst Shelley Duncanstein critic would agree he can match that easy. Shelley costs nothing right now and if given 450 abs why is it unreasonable to think he can’t hit .265 and go for 20-30 long?
Remember Minnesota wants cheap, when Cano hits arbitration in 2 seasons he will be getting market price no? I would think Robbie will be in the top 3 in MLB at that position thus turning him into a high price tag. Won’t they have enough headaches when it comes to the M&M boys hitting free agency?
any RobertFeline sightings yet?
A deal for Santana+Nathan would start at Hughes, Kennedy, Cano, Melky and add on from there. That is a lot to give up
“i’ve read that the yankees make somewhere between $3-6M/year from japanese marketing deals.
i read this in an article about how Boston has not reaped any of the same benefits Boras promised on Matsuzaka.
so far the Sox have made an extra $900K from japanese marketing deals.”
I can tell you exactly why: because nobody outside of the US gives a hoot about Boston. What’s there? Fenway Park and a bunch of American Historical sites. New York is the international capital of the world. Enough said.
“Nathan is actually a lot more valuable on the trade market than Santana. He’s cheap, fairly young, signed, and good”
this isn’t really true.
both are signed to below market deals for 2008.
both are free agents after 2008.
nathan is actually 4 years older than santana.
santana is obviously the better player, so…
Good post, Coach Wynegar. If you could do us all a favor though and tell Eric Duncan and Bronson Sardinha to start hitting again?
Nathan just turned 33. He is making 6 million the last year of his contract.
So you trade the farm for Johan and Joe, with one of them likely to leave after next year. Sorry no deal.
I honestly think that the Red Sox are only in it to ensure that the Yanks overpay in prospects when they eventually land Santana since it might eventually make the Yankees weaker in the long-term. I really don’t think they are that interested in him.
hmmm,
I think an argument could be made for Nathan just b/c there is no 150mil contract involved and it would probably be truely a one year rental so more teams will get involved. I don’t think he will bring in the same package as Santana but by saying he is more “valuable” you could say he is wanted by more teams. With Santana it is probably a 1-3 horse race while with Nathan it is a 6-8 team race
Gotham City, that is exactly why the Red Sox are in it. And just about everybody knows it, too, even if they don’t mention it. Good point, regardless.
The yankees do not need to meet the twins “requirements.”
who care what they want or are demanding.
The twins will have to take the best deal offered by a team santana wants to play for. That’s it.
They’ll have to take the best deal offered or keep santana and take the picks.
That’s the way a market works. Demand all you want – if no one’s offering what you want you’re stuck.
What possible deal would the red sox make if that would somehow force the yankees to include hughes and kennedy?
are the red sox seriously going to trade buchholz and lester in the same deal?
Who said that if the deal doesn’t sting a little, then it was a crappy job by someone. Both sides have to feel a little sting – no one is going to get something for nothing. For me – the sting is Hughes.
swo & Gotham,
Isn’t it hard to call there bluff even if they aren’t in it just due to the fact that they could not be bluffing and having Beckett & Santana makes them one of the most dominate teams in recent history.
hmmm,
A lot more people can afford Nathan, and he could make some OK teams a lot better over night. Like anyone in the NL. I’m not saying he’s a more valuable player, he’ll likely fetch more value on the trade market.
Mike R
It is true. There was just an article that said the Red Sox were told that Dice K would generate lots of advertising dollars for them and the only revenue they have realized is from a Japanese company that pays to have their sign on the outfield wall. In park advertsing and sponsorships are not subject to revenue sharing but all merchandising is.
If Santana goes to the Sox and Pettitte retires I don’t think anyone can argue that the Yanks are the stronger team. That is why you can’t just assume the Sox aren’t in this thing because if you do you could get burned bad
If I’m the Yankees there’s no way I’m giving up Hughes & Kennedy in a deal for Santana. I can’t see how giving up the two of them would make the Yankees better. I’d give up one but not both.
If I’m giving up Cano then I’m not giving up Hughes/IPK/Joba.
I’d be willing to trade Cano/Horne plus lower level guys but to me if you are offering up Cano then that means that the Lethal Weapon 3 and AJax and Tabata or off the table.
Red Sox offered Gagne arbitration. I say offer him a deal of about 1-2 years at about 2 million per and see if he bites.
this la russa video is so sad. im just glad nobody got hurt. christ
Beckett has a Career ERA+ (adjusted) of 116 (compared to Wang at 119). His career WHIP is 1.228. His 2005-2207 ERA+ numbers were 118, 95 and 145. (Santana was 155, 161 and 130 over the same 3 years). Maybe Beckett will continue his 2007 quality, maybe not. He is a very good pitcher, but there are many who are better. The Sox control him for 3 more years.
Considering the cost to replace prospects, and a 6-7 year contract, Santana will cost the Yankees considerably more then ARod. He is a great pitcher, but IMHO, this deal is too expensive as constructed, especially if Phil is included.
How many WinsShares will Santana produce compared to Hughes over the next 6 years? Whatever that difference is, the cost will be about $200-$250m.(Santana salary – Hughes salary plus replacement costs for Melky et al).
Well… lets see. For 2005, 2006 and 2007 (WS / 3 = Wins)
Santana. 23-25-18 = 22 wins
ARod…. 37-25-39 = 34 wins
FattyMC. 29-34-30 = 33 wins
Jeter… 24-33-26 = 28 wins
Cano…. 12-18-21 = 17 wins
Sabathia 13-14-24 = 17 wins
Haren… 15-15-19 = 16 wins
Beckett. 14-12-19 = 15 wins
Wang…. .7-17-16 = 13 wins
Moose… 10-15-06 = 10 wins
Over the last 3 years, Santana has produced 12 more wins then Moose, or 4 Wins/yr. Will Hughes in the next 3 years be better then Moose was in the last 3? Are we trading our favorite son, Melky and Tabata AND $25m/yr for 4 wins/yr?
Will it be 4 wins, or more, or less. What about in 2010? How about 2012?
I hope Santana goes to the Mets.
migames,
the weird part is he blew .0993 which isn’t even over what the legal limit was 10 years ago. I’ve heard of people blowing higher than that after 4 beers and he really seemed out of it.
sunny,
dave dombrowski said that.
losing tabata or jackson stings – a lot. they don’t have many high ceiling position players and this deal will cost them one.
kennedy is a top 20-25 prospect. losing him stings. horne was eastern conference pitcher of the year and has great stuff. he’d be the best pitching prospect in 80-90% of all teams in the majors.
the yankee offer will have a lot of talent in it. it will sting already without hughes.
the best three prospects in the twins system after that trade would be the guys they get from the yankees.
mav,
it was at 3:30 in the am…falling asleep at a intersection. wow
No I know, thats what was crazy. Ecspecially during ST.
Maverick-
If Santana doesn’t go to the Sox and goes to the Yanks, you’d still have a hard time saying the Yanks were better. If Santana stays with the Twins, you’d have a hard time saying anyone was better than the Sox regardless. And, at this point in time, the Sox are the best team in baseball and they’re set up to continue being the best team.
They don’t need Santana.
my god what is it w/ you people that want to trade Robi Cano ?
He’s 24
he’s cheap
he’s a 2B
can hit .330 at a drop of a hat
can win batting titles
hits lefties and righties
is the best power bat in the MLB at 2B
is a shoe in if he continues like this to be in the HOF
has been compared to Rod Carew
I mean com’on what is it, that you want to trade in him !!!
Stop it already.
Daniel… this is NOT a ‘Trade’. The Twins are 1 year away from losing Santana to free agency. Santana has a full NTC. This is a desparation move to try and salvage more then 2 draft picks. Please check out my WinShares posted above, or come up with other documentation that shows Santana is even worth close to what we have offered.
And don’t forget to put some value on the $25m/yr he will cost. That $25m buys a Miggy Cabrera type FA withOUT losing ANY of our guys.
I would say no to Gag-Me
1) he’s proven he can’t play the big stage in Boston
2) he’s a type A and we’ll be giving our 1st round draft pick to Boston if we sign him
3) he wants to close
actually the best power bat at 2B belongs to chase utley. cano is awesome, but i’d rather lose him than hughes in a deal for santana.
We have to get Santana at any price.
October is more important.
Just take a look at Boston.
They did have the best 1-2 punch.
WE NEED AN ACE TO LEAD OUR ROTATION.
Agree with everything you said Brandon, except Cano is not the best power bat in the MLB at 2B. That’s Chase Utley.
Andy, you’re breaking my heart!!
No way the Yanks move Cano instead of Hughes….they’d be stupid to do it. Cano have PROVEN himself at the big league level to be a STAR. Hughes is merely PROJECTED to be a star. HUGE difference. You could fill the streets of NY with all the top pitching prospects who never lived up to the hype.
Old Yanks Fan: There is one problem with that theory of waiting until they hit FA then snapping them up…. they might never hit FA. They might sign an extension and never hit the open market.
we have the best power bat at 2B, Utley hits in a hitters park, that was Utley striking out time after time vs Colorado you know while Cano was hitting Cleveland’s pitching
(1) Santana really wants to play in NY.
(2) NY is really the only team which is going to put up the $25 million x 6.
(3)Twins get nothing but picks if Santana does not get an offer that can match the Yankees presumed offer.
(4) With this “presumed offer” thing, the Yankees just went through this with ARod, so they know what they are doing.
(5) Twins have no leverage. None. The only leverage they get is from the media shills jerking around fanboys like us.
(6) Hank and Hal run the show now, and I am sure Hank has dealt with people hyping us various stud ponies in negotiations.
(7) Therefore, IPK plus Betemit plus two more AA prospects should do it. Melky may not even go in this deal.
(8) If the Sox trade away 3/4 of their top prospects, and pay Santana $25 million per year, and we trade away nothing, it is a win as well. That’s why the Sox are posuers here.
Can you argue it is better to lose some production for our already potent lineup than it is to lose pitching though? While it hurts to lose Cano it may hurt less than losing a quality starting pitcher to help fill out the rotation???
No they had the best 1 punch. In the Cleveland series their other starters were not good at all.
SWO :
Most of Boston has little interest to Japanese people. They say it has little culture beyond a Dunkin Donut. It’s seen as tolerant and cosmopolitan as Savannah, Georgia.
SAVE PHIL FRANCHISE — keep him in pinstripes
From today’s Times:
The Yankees have offered pitcher Ian Kennedy, center fielder Melky Cabrera and at least one minor league prospect, perhaps outfielder José Tabata. In the trade discussions, the Yankees have told the Twins that pitcher Joba Chamberlain is untouchable and that they do not want to deal pitcher Phil Hughes.
Because the Twins are insisting that Hughes must be a part of the package, the Yankees are mulling whether to make that concession. If the Yankees insert Hughes for Kennedy in their offer, they think it could be enough to obtain Santana. Of course, the Yankees, or any team that reached an agreement with the Twins, would then have the challenging task of signing Santana to a huge six- or seven-year contract in a 72-hour window.
Wow, all this trade speculation is getting out of hand.
Just as Boston might be driving up the price with the real intent of going after Dan Haren, so might the Yankees. There are plenty of available starting lefties for trade all at the right price. Rest assured that, monetarily, Santana is the most expensive when you factor in the $25 million per.
I’d rather shop prospects for Bedard, Kazmir, or Haren, personally. More so because this whole Santana BS is getting out of control.
Put it this way, regardless of whether the Yankees get Santana or not, the Red Sox are going to get one of the other guys I just mentioned. So what’s the point of all this poker table BS?
The Yankees should hold firm to their offer of Kennedy, Melky, Tabata, and maybe throw in a single A guy or Betemit. If the Twins say no, screw it. No Ellsbury, No Hughes. Simple as that.
Bottom line is there are other options that don’t cost $150 million in addition to 4 prospects.
1. Mets won’t give up Reyes, Sox won’t give up Ellsbury or Stealth, Yankees are hesitant to give up Hughes.
2. There’s no way they give up Hughes AND Kennedy.
3. We’re talking about a team that was willing to let the best player in all of baseball walk away.
4. Cash is not managing for his job.
5. We read and hear what they want us to.
6. Don’t worry.
Pitts:
1 – How do we know this?
2 – How do we know this?
Mark Feinsand has a good blog entry today breaking down the posturing among Santana suitors, exactly the way Robert Feline (love that nickname) did here two days ago…
A good read, might bring some Yankees fans back in off the ledge, or convince them that giving Minny the WHOLE farm, as well as free parking at Yankees Stadium during every series in NYC, won’t be necessary…
Link:
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/yankees/
FOr all you armchair GM’s – this is a good read:
GM for a day
Sunny – Gagne is a Type B Free Agent and Boston wouldn’t get much. I’m not too sure he can command a closure role after his horrendous time in Fenway. He has always been good, I would consider it a fluke last season and bite the bullet on 2-4 million trying to get him. Could he be much worse than Farns?
we have the best power bat at 2B, Utley hits in a hitters park,
24 yrs. old ROBI CANO batting 8th in the lineup (younger than Utley)
.306 AVG 19 HR, 97 RBI, 93 R
29 yrs. old CHASE UTLEY batting #2 or 3
.332 AVG 22 HR, 103 RBI, 104 R
well, no one is worse than Farns… but Gag’s recent performance would have me reaching for my Pepto nonetheless if we got him. Besides, like Percival, why be a setup guy here when he can be a closer elsewhere?
Wow, they offered Gagne arbitration? They’re actually risking him coming back?
Gagne could close for anyone in the NL and the lower half of the AL.
I don’t know what happened to him when he went to Boston, but I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it.
migames
November 30th, 2007 at 11:28 am
mav,
it was at 3:30 in the am…falling asleep at a intersection. wow
_____________________________________________________
Maybe Steve Swindle took LaRussa to his favorite club.
Yankees should offer Cano,Damon and Kennedy(and maybe a minor leaguer)..This is a no brainer situation,get Santana and we are going back to the World Series.Let the red sucks have him and we are done for the next few years.
Damon makes $13 mil a year… the Twins aren’t paying that.
Yanks to sign Mark Loretta per Buster Olney.
Does this spell the end for Betemit or even Cano?
“This is a no brainer situation,get Santana and we are going back to the World Series.Let the red sucks have him and we are done for the next few years.”
This is not true. nothing is a no brainer in baseball, nothing. If the marlins can win a world series (twice) and the rockies make it there, and a team that wins 83 games get the trophy and another team managed by ozzie guillen wins the world series, anything can happen
Phil 27
1. He told all of his friends on the Twins. Torii Hunter has said as much.
2. It is not Boston’s MO to give so much, and they already have Beckett, who will ask for similar terms immediately.
since when ? all it means is we have to get an ACE by selling the package some of you propose is like handcuffing an organization, ask yourself how many years is Johan is great for and how many Robi Cano gives your offense, now ask yourself the last guy that hit like Cano at 24 and the task here is get an ACE not sell everything for a Santana
Come on now Brandon, you’re better than that. Utley played in 132 games, Cano played in 160. Utley is a better power hitter than Cano – and I love Cano.
by the way, the Twins’ total payroll for 07 was $71 mil. Damon would be almost 20% of their payroll… at 34 yrs old with 2 years left?
Somehow I doubt the Twins bite.
Phil 27 in -08 :
How do we know this ? Are you sure ? My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thanks to everyone for the revenue sharing information. I’m always happy to learn something new. (New to me at least)
Pitts:
1 – While with the O’s, Moose used to say publicly to th Baltimore Sun that he’d never play in NY. His teammates said the same thing. A few calls from Torre and Jeter and a tour of upstate NY and CT changed his mind.
2 – It is speculation to assume Boston won’t pay that much…they’ve never had a Santana-caliber pitcher in this current market. You don’t know Boston’s MO in this situation.
Cano is still developing. Pitchers pitched him slop because he’d swing at it. Not anymore. Working with Kevin Long did wonders for Cano’s plate discipline, and he’ll see better pitches because of it. I don’t think that Cano’s hit his power ceiling yet.
Not saying one is better than the other, but I like Cano because he’s our guy.
No offense Pitt, but unless you can provide documentation of this declaration, all it is is heresay.
rodg12, Cano at 24 and being held down in a lineup to a spot in which his safety net is Melky Cabrera or Johnny Damon most of the time produced just as many runs and hit for just as good as an average as Utley who had Burrell and Howard protect him in his spot.
One is 24 the other is 29 yrs. old, this doesn’t matter ? name me the hitters at Cano’s age that does just as good as he has, the names will shock you
Where is almighty Bobcat?
Ok friends….Lets just get Johan…WE NEED A LEFTY..Pettite looks like he wants to be home.
Just keep Hughes,Joba and Melki all the others are tradeable
Raul,
Didn’t you mean Hughes, Joba, and Robbie?
Bobcat! Bobcat! Bobcat!!
either way it’s a hell no
The Yanks won’t ever trade Matsui; Michael Kay has reiterated this numerous times. Remember, Matsui is Japanese and the respect factor is huge for any future dealings with the Japanese – not to mention while the Red Sox are complaining (what else is new?) that they haven’t received what they expected re: Japanese revenue from acquiring Daisuke, the Yanks have received huge revenues from Hideki coming here.
The Orioles won’t trade anyone of Bedard’s caliber to the Yankees; there’s still bad blood there. The Wright/Britton contract was small potatoes compared to Bedard. Omar is going for Bedard or Haren depending on what the Orioles want for Bedard. Omar is also going after Ramon Hernandez so he has to be careful with little to trade. Bedard isn’t happy where he is – the are fighting over arbitration because of the amount of days he worked last year.
Whew, this is easier to talk about than Hughes and Cano. Did you read where Hughes would be devastated to have to leave the Yankees? 1 last thing – Mark Loretta is 36 and would definitely be a utility guy. I know he is excellent but I wish they would stay away from ex-Red Sox.
Nobody ever mentions Joe Kerrigan anymore ? Why is that ?
Brandon (Proud supporter of “ALEX BEING ALEX”)….
Couldn’t agree with you more. People think guys like Cano fall out of trees.
He may be young, but he is a PREMIER Player at his position. Already the best in the AL. It’s not even debatable
The Yanks are interested in Loretta as a UT. They tried to hire him to do that last year. He’s tight with Girardi cause they both played college ball at Northwestern.
There’s no reason in the world for the Yanks to trade Hughes or Cano in this deal.
The market, as we can clearly see, for a 150M pitcher is not what the Twins would have hoped.
I think you guys are expecting a bit much of Bobcat here. He’s said before that he can’t say much about specific names or “announce” anything, and he probably won’t have much new to say unless something new comes across his desk. It’s not like he’s Hank Steinbrenner in disguise — he’s waiting to hear about what the major players do just like the rest of us.
That said, I wish someone would post something to make me less nervous about all this.
Brandon – Cano is one of my favorite players in baseball. 3rd behind Jeter and ARod. I love watching the guy play and think he’s a star. Could he possibly be as good a power hitter as Utley is RIGHT NOW down the road, sure. But, right now, Utley is the best power hitting 2B in the majors. He had an SLG% last year of .566, Cano’s was .488. That stat is independent of where someone hits in the line-up. Utley has an IsoP (Isolated Power) of .234, Cano’s is .182.
Prince if Robbi Cano were on another team people here would be crying to get him as a FA
Prince and Brandon,
Read Raul’s comment again. He thinks everyone but those guys are tradeable.
Utley is heads and shoulders above Cano at this point. Will that change? Probably not because Cano still doesn’t walk enough. A left bat in Yankee stadium and a left bat in Citizen’s Park is a wash. 308 porch, c’mon. Utley is consistently over .900 OPS, last year at a freakish .976. His HR, RBI totals would be even higher if he wasn’t hurt for close to a month.
Bats at 2B that’s comparable to Cano last year: Polanco in Detroit, Philips in Cincy, Aaron Hill, Kelly Johnson, Freddy Sanchez in Pittsburgh and don’t forget Dan Uggla lead all 2B last year with 31 HRs.
Strong bats at 2B were not as rare a commodity as you thought.
I am starting to get stressed out about this hot stove. This can’t be healthy.
I’ve noticed Bobcat’s M.O. is usually mid to late afternoon.
“Wow, they offered Gagne arbitration? They’re actually risking him coming back?”
It’s just a formality. The Red Sox may not actually want him back, but if they are to collect draft picks from another team’s signing of Gagne, they need to offer him arbitration first. If they don’t, then he is non-tendered and the Sox get no picks.
JMZ,
Amen. And Bobcat said he can only confirm or deny anything that’s out there.
No word from BobCat for hours. The winds of change are abound.
Not good for stomachs or nerves. The phone lines are jammed. Time to reach in the medicine cabinet.
the yankees need to negotiate with the twins like they did with damon.
tell them heres our deal, kennedy, melky, tabata and a low level prospect. the offer is off the table at midnight. take it or leave it, and get this over with.
Plop plop fizz fizz.
Bobcat seems to show up around 2:00 – 3:00. I think we need to wait a bit longer.
With Pete taking the day off from this blog, which blog website do you all use to keep yourself updated?
Bobcat has been pretty accurate in projecting what would be happening in the Santana deal, so I tend to rely on his posts rather than listen to the rehashed baloney that is ongoing on ESPN, WFAN, MSG and the rest of media outlets.
Bobcat said that the lists have been given to the Twins and the next step is to choose from those lists. Obviously those “lists” could change at a moment’s notice, but I feel confident that we would hear about it from Bobcat before it hit the media.
I’m staying calm………….
The reason I love and want Bobcat is because Peter is on vacation and has offered us next to nothing during one of the craziest trade rumor periods in recent memory.
Russell,
I’d be careful with Gagne. I’ve run in to a few people who played with him in his early days. He openly juiced. This might be the start of his rapid decline.
Peter Rabbit – you can listen to pretty much any radio show or read any blog out there. This is the only news coming out of the baseball world, so someone will cover it.
I’d stay away from Mike and the Mad Dog though. Even if you get past “Chwis Wusso’s” speech impediment, you’re probably not going to hear much of worth.
swo. not true. gagne could accept the arbitration and stay in boston. i doubt he would but its not impossible. greg maddux did this years ago.
*unless gagne doesn’t have 6 years of service time, but i’m pretty sure he does.
Cano must be off-limits. I say ditto for Hughes — this kid was the best pitching prospect in baseball going into last year, was a year away from the majors, had pitched a solid workload in the minors in ’06 and dominated, and ended up as a top option for the Yanks down the stretch despite inexperience, injury and being in the majors ahead of schedule. There is nothing he has done to negate his top prospect status and the Yanks should make him untouchable. Period.
As for Joba — he’s incredible to watch and has great ability. But he has not pitched to pros for a full season as a starter, his innings pitched levels should not hit 200+ until 2009 at the earliest (and that’s probably pushing it) and he has had conditioning problems in the past. I hope he’s the Yanks’ Verlander, but worry that he’s more likely to turn into Ryan Bradley than Hughes.
I like Carlos Santana.
Patience, patience, patience… The Yankees aren’t going to give the Twins a “take-it-or-leave-it” because the Twins are still exploring offers. The Twins no the Yankees aren’t going to pull back an offer at this point. If the Twins are going to do something this big, they are going to make sure they can maximize their outcome
“With Pete taking the day off from this blog, which blog website do you all use to keep yourself updated?”
this one, you just read the comments and wait for bobcat to show up. If you read the comments throughout the day, any breaking news that happens is mentioned here and then talked about talked about and then talked about. Some people are called morons other people are call idiots, then we go home on log on. Its really healthy
“Bats at 2B that’s comparable to Cano last year: Polanco in Detroit, Philips in Cincy, Aaron Hill, Kelly Johnson, Freddy Sanchez in Pittsburgh and don’t forget Dan Uggla lead all 2B last year with 31 HRs.” ~ LoserBob
Utley is in a different class. That is why I said Cano is the best in the AL.
Did you really just mention Hill, Johnson, and Sanchez in the same breath as Robbie? I know you want to make a point, but that is laughable.
Utley is one of the best players in all of baseball, let alone the best 2Bman.
he is much better than Cano.
but Cano is next and he is much younger than Utley.
Sure migames, but do we alk about it?? One has to wonder.
migames,
That was an awesome explanation of this blog! hahaha
Good work.
Damn lack of an Edit button. it should have said “talk about it”
Peter Rabbit,
After reading the Bobcat Journal here, it’s clear that there’s a lot of misdirection and misinformation out there. Apparently, it’s the job of guys like Heyman, Rosenthal, Gammons, and Olney to regurgitate and spin it how they want. They don’t get paid for investigative reporting, they get paid to keep the rumor mill going. Some like to think outside the box. For instance Gammons was bold enough to say that Boston may have to re-do Beckett’s reasonable contract to make it on par with Santana. He actually threw out the numbers $20-$25M.
So, in answer to your question, the best way to get the latest is to stay here and sift through the information and take it for a grain of salt until something is confirmed elsewhere.
Like Miller advised weeks ago, I now take everything with a grain of salt.
Cano is approximately as valuable as Santana. He won’t be in any Santana trade. The market just isn’t there for Santana.
This is funny considering Cano is actually a better player at his age than Chase Utley was at the same age. Utley didn’t even play a full season in the bigs until he was 26. Cano who turned 25 in October has already played 2 full seasons. Let’s give Cano 3 more years and see what kind of player he becomes. He doubled his walks this past year. If he can continue to hone his plate discipline he will be a HOF.
http://tinyurl.com/yoksko
the todd, I never said that Gagne wouldn’t accept arbitration. All I said is that Boston may not want him back, and that is fully understandable.
Though now that you mention it, he probably wants to close somewhere and erase the memories of Fenway from his brain forever, lol
LOL Migames. Awesome.
I am not following as close as some but is it true what they’re saying, that Boston has pulled really far ahead in this?
A friend who is a Sox fan called me and said he heard that they are now working on the structire of the deal and it’s been agreed to in principle, with the extension talks next. I think he’s BS ing me, since Santana would need to explicitly say he is willing to go to Boston. Is that correct?
I really have a great feeling about Hughes, Joba ad IPK. No way are they going to fall to the same fates as Pulsipher, Wilson and Izzy. But it did work out for Isringhausen, no?
mel,
I hear you man. For the last few weeks, I can only read Heyman’s articles on A-Rod thinking about his Boras relationship. Its pretty clear his slant is in line with the superagent’s agenda.
And as of yesterday, the rumors involving the Sox all are traced back to a leak from Minnesota. Could it be that the Sox will make a deal? Yes. But I’m thinking/hoping that this very well could be Smith’s strategy to “steal” Hughes. And the Red Sox would be happy, of course to play along.
Goldthwait.
working on the structure of the deal and that it’s been agreed to in principal?
Did that make any sense to you when you were writing it?
Loserbob
November 30th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Utley is heads and shoulders above Cano at this point. Will that change? Probably not because Cano still doesn’t walk enough. A left bat in Yankee stadium and a left bat in Citizen’s Park is a wash. 308 porch, c’mon. Utley is consistently over .900 OPS, last year at a freakish .976. His HR, RBI totals would be even higher if he wasn’t hurt for close to a month.
Bats at 2B that’s comparable to Cano last year: Polanco in Detroit, Philips in Cincy, Aaron Hill, Kelly Johnson, Freddy Sanchez in Pittsburgh and don’t forget Dan Uggla lead all 2B last year with 31 HRs.
Strong bats at 2B were not as rare a commodity as you thought.
____________________________________________________
Cano doesn’t get much of an advantage by hitting in Yankee Stadium. Look at his spray charts. Most of his home runs are to left and right center field. He hit 3 in Boston, LF, CF, RCF, and 10 at home, 9 on the road.
Here’s his spray chart.
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/indiv.....statType=1
swo, i know. but you said if he accepts they can just non tender him, which is not true. if he accepts. then he will be with boston next year.
years ago when maddux because a free agent with the braves they offered him arbitration so they could get draft picks. they did not want him back and against boras’s wished maddux just accepted the arbitration and stayed an extra year.
I’m sorry but the Mets big three never put up the kinds of numbers in the Minors that the current Yanks trio have put up.
So in the 12 hours I was asleep or pretending to be so, what earth-shattering news did I miss?
No it didn’t, and it did not make sense when I heard it spoken, which is why I am asking (mostly) intelligent Yankee fans to make sure.
I think there are plenty of trumped up rumors going around and figured I would check in with you lot. I am not the one who made mention of it in the first place.
To clarify, he said the Twins agreed to the package not involving Ellsbury so the players were agreed to in principle. He said there were two tiers of deals, one involving Santana and Nathan and apparently they passed on that deal.
The financial structure of the deal involves cash being moved so that was what was being worked on.
I think it is BS. Even so, I hope the Yanks keep the kids and pass.
Sadly, chances are, the only news your going to hear is going to be the news that the clubs are intentionally leaking. It is quite possible that Minny leaked this deal just to jack up the price on the yankees
Mike,
“man”? “dude” is okay. lol.
Heyman is supposedly Boras’ shill.
And I don’t agree with the people who think that Boston is in it just to raise the price. If anything it’s a blocking tactic. That’s there MO. The Yankees started it and they jumped on the bandwagon. Didn’t the same thing happen with Gagne? Although, they do need to replace Schilling.
I’m so sick of the Sox. I refuse to let them get in my head. It’ll be detrimental if they get Santana, but it’s not the end of the world. The Yankees just has to do their thing.
I really hate this process. As much as I love the internet, as well as the on-demand sports coverage out there, at times it is just too much. Back in the dark ages, you didn’t get nearly as many rumors and these things didn’t get played out in the media with nearly as much specificity.
The problem is, when there is so much coverage, they have to fill the space, whether that be newpaper, out in the blogosphere, or television/radio. It reminds me of when cable television was relatively new, and ESPN was just starting out. There was not quite 24-hours worth to cover, so you got Australian football and ping-pong matches just to fill the air time. The rumors, which seem to spin a different way depending on which outlet you’re accessing, are the equivalent of Australian football to me.
XM radio is all over the Red Sox being close to getting Santana. Of course this ticks me off, because — well, BECAUSE! But I’m stupid enough to listen, and read, and blog, so I get what I deserve, I suppose. I think the next time I get into the car, I’m just going right to the 24-hour-a-day holiday music station. No chance of baseball overexposure there.
And for what it’s worth, I seriously doubt the Yankees will include Hughes AND Kennedy. Especially with Pettitte being so much up in the air (and I think regardless of Santana, he will probably retire), that would leave the yankees too short-handed in the rotation, plus they’d still have to fill centerfield, because the Twins will also take Melky. I had hoped they’d try to get this done before Monday, but unless there’s some fast talking going on, it looks like this thing is gonna just keep dragging on, with everyone playing chicken. Oh, well.
By the way, I scrolled through a lot of the posts. Don’t you guys ever sleep????
Well, what I meant was “If they don’t offer him arbitration, then he will be non-tendered”. I probably should have been more specific in my comment.
I’ve seen NO documentation of this online so I think my friend is gleefully enjoying an extension of the post 2007 Championship torture.
mel,
I hear you dude.
With Santana on the Sox, that puts a target on their back. Let them wear the heavy crown for the first time.
I would prefer the Sox not getting Santana, but if they do, our young pitching staff chasing down the juggernaut would make for a very fun season. If we were to win it all in this situation, it would be second best only to 1996.
Goldthwait –
That is just wrong of your friend!!!!
It’s bad enough, doing Christmas shopping, that every novelty-type store I go into (games, sports stuff, calendars), there is so much Red Sox World Champs stuff! I live in central New Jersey. This makes no sense to me. If they have to stock it for the odd Sox fan that comes in, can’t they at least keep it in the back??!! I seriously, seriously doubt that if you shop in the “Red Sox Nation” – New England – that you’ll find any Yankees stuff, or if you do, it’s really hard to find.
You guys all know that, in the end, Santana’s gonna end up opening 2008 in Minnesota, right?
Thanks guys. I too have been using this blog as a news source for the last few weeks.
I just wish the layout was more like a message board so comments could be easier to read. Plus, if there’s breaking news on a message board, a whole new thread is created, which is great.
Ahh, nevermind. All the scrolling down I have to do just makes it more dramatic!
For Satana I hope the Yanks give up early prototypes of the Derek Jeter’s cologne “Driven”, A-Rod’s sun tanning t-shirt from Central Park, and Johnny Damon’s pull-up bar.
Mets traded Milage to the Nats for Church and some catcher.
That’s not the optimism I am accustomed to with you Rebecca.
Actually, I live in Mass right now and you can always find yanks merchandise all over the place.
Are you sure Jennifer? Where did you read that?
Just heard it on wfan.
Rebecca-
That would be the best of all possible outcomes IMHO
RosterRooster –
I guess that surprises me!
Thanks for the heads up Jenn.
No problem, dog walked into the studio to tell them about it. I think they both fell on the floor since it seems like a crap trade.
Snyder is the catcher.
wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww for Ryan Church ?
It is surprising, which is why I always buy the stuff (mostly lighters and winter hats) to encourage vendors to keep stocked with bombers gear!
I don’t follow the NL nearly as closely as the AL (specifically the Yankees) It seems to me that Milledge has more upside. Any thoughts from somone who knows?
Some alert the police on the bridges I think Met fans are already lining up. lol
Mike R: Actually, I’m in the camp that getting-Santana-is-nice-but-not-worth-our-future
So it’s plenty optimistic for me
But to each his own.
Jennifer: Thanks for the update. It’s too bad I don’t actually know anyone on Washington!
I think they didn’t like his attitude.
One thing about this reported upcoming signing of Loretta…if the deal is announced, one of three things has happened.
1. The Santana deal is done, or, NYY has made a trade with somebody off of the 40 man roster, which is full.
2. Pavano has been released, which is unlikely, because of the insurance money.
3. They waived a player from the 40 man roster.
I’d bet on the 1st one.
Minaya must be making an early run at worst GM of the year. I can’t see how a milledge for Ryan Church swap makes any sense. And now they have 3 below average catchers?
Who wants to fire Cashman now? lol If this trade is true than Minaya would trade Phil Hughes for Al Reyes in a nanosecond.
I think Milledge has lost his luster a bit, so if they can get a catcher which they desperately need (they almost signed lightweight Torrealba). Now the question is what happens to DeLuca
I thought Milledge would be one of the pieces Baltimore might want in a Bedard deal. Trading him now doesn’t make much sense to me.
The catcher would be Brian Schneider.
This trade not only removes any doubt oabout getting Santana, but, 99% sure of not getting Haren.
Mel, they just traded for Estrada who’s horrible as well but better than Schneider. I don’t get what Minaya is doing at all.
I made a prediction last week:
Minaya will be hated by Mets fans by the end of the Winter. Close to Isiah Thomas hatred.
I think the idea for the mets is to trade the catcher they just got for mota. Estrada? Is that his name?
well, if “some catcher” is Brian Schnieder, they traded Milledge for a decent OFer in Church and their starting catcher.
seems decent on both ends.
i actually like Church quite a bit so i may be biased.
I know the Mets haven’t been happy with Milledge (as a person rather than as a player), but he does have talent, and I thought they’d include him in a deal for a pitcher. Interesting move. Quizzical move, actually.
I’m more interested in their catching situation. What exactly was the problem with LoDuca? He’s a bit rough, but I got the impression he was a good player, good motivator.
This is a move to steal the back pages from the Yankees. I can see the headlines for tommorrow. “Minaya Fired” and “Mets fans rejoice”
There was talk that Oakland loved Milledge. Guess he’s not included in a Haren or Blanton deal now. Very puzzling move unless this is a domino thing.
Brian Schneider is a pretty good hitting and defensive catcher. I think the Mets are working on a deal to move Johnny Estrada, their newly acquired catcher.
ray,
So Minaya’s trying to get all the catchers on the market. Then when someone needs a catcher he’ll get blue chip aces in return? (insert Dr. Evil laugh track)
we’re on our way Met Fans !!!
Hmmmm –
Schneider doesn’t look (from his stats) like much of an offensive player. Is defense/pitch calling his strength?
They called other teams a’s etc no one was interested in Milage.
Also the Mets would have to offer Estrada arbitration otherwise he just walks. So they can’t trade him.
Doreen, LoDuca was a good singles hitter, but, as a catcher and throwing, only Piazza may have been worse.
The Mets are thinking of non tendering Estrada, so the Mota deal was a salary dump.
that mets trade is unbelievable.
minaya is desperate. desperation leads to bad things.
new york has been hearing about lastings milledge five tool stud for at least 3 years now. And in the end all they got was church?
this tells you that billy beane wanted no part of milledge in that harren deal.
For all of the people who can’t stand Cashman and think the only reason the yankees have gotten results is because Cash has so much money to work with – take a look at the mets.
They are an absolute mess – have a ton of money to work with, a new ball park coming on line and their own cable station.
It’s not all about resources. The mets have to make bad moves now because they haven’t developed their minor league system since omar got there. They are in a bad spot because there are no free agents and they have very few chips to trade.
Tell me you’re joking about his offensive ability. I know nothing about him defensively, but offensively he’s below horrible.
Thanks, GreenBeret7. Sometimes watch the Mets, but more of a casual observer.
I guess Milledge’s bad PR finally caught up to him and the Mets. They should have traded him last season.
What did Pete Caldera mean when he said: “The three [main] guys they get [for Santana] are not going to be ones you read about in Baseball America,†one AL observer said. “It’ll be three guys you’ve seen on SportsCenter.”?
Does this mean Melky, Cano and Kennedy for Santana?
I broke my first trade
I heard it said that Joe Kerrigan wanted to retire. He isn’t that old but remember, he was not only the pitching coach for the Red Sox but also was their manager for a short time. Torre always liked as many former managers as possible working for him – I’m guessing because he was a pretty secure guy. The Yankees were loyal to a number of their old players like Randolph, Mattingly, and Guidry; Chambliss was an AA manager. Torre always tried for managers with experienced. For me, I wonder about Ron Guidry; he was a great Yankee and although the team didn’t do as well during his last year as pitching coach I don’t think it was because he wasn’t good – he just didn’t have the talent to work with; he lowered the team ERA and added to the strikeouts in previous years.
Mets update: Milledge was traded for Brian Schneider and Ryan Church.
CB,
LOL. Your last two paragraphs sound like the old Yankees.
Yay, Jennifer!!!!
Schneider stats are terrible. Still haven’t read that anywhere as an official trade not even on WFAN
“Schneider doesn’t look (from his stats) like much of an offensive player. Is defense/pitch calling his strength?”
i will defer to people who follow the NL more than i do, but i thought he was a good defensive catcher with decent on-base skills. not an all-star, but decent.
it’s Church that is the main part of this deal though. i think people are underrating him a bit.
THAT SAID, i am a little surprised at how far Milledge’s stock fell. i had heard Minaya was shopping him everywhere he could, so this was obviously the best deal he could find.
maybe it was better to just hold onto him. the more i think about it, it probably was.
Why? The Yankees don’t have to make it official with Loretta right away, they still don’t have A-Rod or Mariano on the 40 man roster yet, Posada just took up the last spot open.
The only thing that filling up the 40 man right now means that they aren’t going after any Rule 5 draftees.
I do think the Loretta deal is in anticipation of a deal going down. Probably to cover Betemit, not Cano. I don’t see the Yankees giving up Cano.
I think the Santana deal will be done soon, too many rumors going around for it to last much longer. When you hear this much being said it usually means something is close to being done and this is just about last minute postures.
November 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Brian Schneider is a pretty good hitting and defensive catcher. I think the Mets are working on a deal to move Johnny Estrada, their newly acquired catcher.
Tell me you’re joking about his offensive ability. I know nothing about him defensively, but offensively he’s below horrible.
______________________________________________________
Never said Schneider was HOF material, only that he was a pretty good hitter, and for a platoon catcher, he’s got some power and hits about .260 at the bottom of a brutal lineup, ahead of the pitcher. This year, the power was down, but, he calls a good game (as good a game as you can with that staff), he can throw (something that will surprise Mets fans, since they haven’t seen that since Jerry Grote and Gary Carter), and, he hits.
raymagnetic
November 30th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
No problem, dog walked into the studio to tell them about it. I think they both fell on the floor since it seems like a crap trade.
Minaya must be making an early run at worst GM of the year. I can’t see how a milledge for Ryan Church swap makes any sense. And now they have 3 below average catchers?
Who wants to fire Cashman now? lol If this trade is true than Minaya would trade Phil Hughes for Al Reyes in a nanosecond.
And this is why we overpay for Posada. Yankees would rather pay with money than prospects. Think it’s hard to get pitching? Catching’s even harder. Also very luck to grab Molina.
I miss Mr. Utility, Miguel Cairo. What’re the odds he turns up in LA?
The reason NYY can wait to make the others official is because of who they are and they’re not walking away from those contracts. Loretta could, if he got a starting job before it was announced and official.
Sorry…wrong paste…this is what I wanted to paste…
mel,
that’s exactly what I was thinking. the mets are turning into the same organization the yankees were when they spent a ton of money for mediocrity and frustration. that’s exactly where they are now and its going to get worse.
minaya’s in a bad cycle – they lose – more pressure – more desperation – more bad moves trading short term for long term – more losing.
i like omar and thought he did a phenomenal job with the expos. unfortunately the came to new york and sort of thought he needed to do things differently. new york wouldn’t “stand” for building a rational team the way he did in montreal.
big mistake. ironically trying to “win at all costs” may cost him (or at least willie) his job.
Are you listening to the fan? They are talking about it.
Ok, http://www.MLBtraderumors.com has the Mets trade.
Its over at Trade Rumors already.
Cairo’s a FA. He might. He’d actually be the perfect one year stop gap in Minnesota at second base, but, don’t tell him that.
Yankees just finalized a deal with Loretta apparently…
uh oh…
thank god Minaya’s not my GM, sad what he’s doing right now
Two things on the Mets deal: Schneider is a terrible hitter, but he really can handle a pitching staff. Church is probably a better player right now than Milledge. This move will help the Mets next year. The bigger story is that Mota was essentially released, because Johnny Estrada has no chance to make the Mets now.
On Santana (speaking of moves that will help next year and hurt years down the road), I don’t understand why the Yankees need a left-handed starter so bad that they give up everything for him? Is Santana the only one out there? I know he’s the best right now, but look at the numbers, he’s been heading downward the last four years. More hits allowed, worse ERA, more homers… Not saying the guy isn’t great, but if people think that in three years, Wang-Chamberlain-Kennedy-Hughes-and a free agent has the chance to be a dominant rotation, can’t we wait three years? It’s not like they don’t have a shot next year.
My opinion: If you can get Santana for Kennedy-Melky-Tabata, then welcome aboard, Johan. But anything more than that would be a case of the loss cancelling out the gain.
Catherine don’t worry about it, he will likely be a super utility guy. They aren’t going to add 10 years to second base.
Catherine a link please
hmmm,
the problem with this move is that minaya traded milledge at his absolutely lowest value. that’s almost always a bad move. what’s the harm in sending him to the minors and waiting until his value comes up more?
milledge was the “face” of their minor league system ever since reyes/ wright came up. the mets fan based has had their expectations on this guy drummed up for years.
he was their future.
now they just trade him at his lowest value?
Has Loretta been on SportsCenter?
The Mets could have had Dan Haren for Milledge a couple of years ago. That is quite the drop-off in value.
I’m sorry but I’d take Milledge or Church any day of the week and twice on Sundays!
Milledge is 6 years Church’s junior gets on base at a decent clip and hits for some power. Of course this is all in limited playing time but I think he’ll end up better than church not to mention he’s much cheaper than Church is. I just don’t get it.
Omar was trying to trade for Ramon Hernandez.
But, he was getting ticked off at Andy McPhail being unable to pull the trigger. So, he went to Plan B.
Milledge is the classic example of why don’t you don’t fall in love with every prospect you have in the system.
Last year, the hype on Milledge was off the charts. So much so that, Omar had some chances to do some things pitching-wise to improve the team by dealing him.
He drank his own Kool Aid with the kid, he didn’t show enough to have the value one thought he would have, and he eventually settled for a lesser deal.
That’s the key with prospects. Don’t fall so much in love with them, it clouds your judgment.
I heard it on Mike and Mike. Apparently the Denver Post is reporting Loretta is close to a deal with the Yankees
Maybe we’re trading Betemit or Gonzalez?
The price is slowly starting to go up…Now Cano’s name is starting to come out of the wood work…we’ll see more names soon…
Catherine,
Who are you and why are you teasing us without a source?!
problem w/ the Minaya move is they could have still used him in a package for a Haren, for a Bedard or any type of multiplayer deal. He basically made Carlos Gomez an untradeable for the Mets in any other future deals.
Loretta will definitely help the Yankees, a guy like him is perfect for the Yanks a la Mariano Duncan.
hmmm-
Good call on Church, he is pretty good, maybe that deal will help the Mets get Blanton but probably not Haren.
I don’t have a written source. Peter Gammons reported it on Mike and Mike this morning.
Loretta’s first preference is to stay with Rockies.
Andy Hawkins, those numbers were for a guy hitting 8th in the Nationals lineup in 400 at bats. In another park his homers will be back around 10-12 again. His average dropped this year, but, is usually at a steady .260. Defensively, he tops anything the Mets have had in 20 years.
http://washington.nationals.ml.....rID=150411
I know. The other blogs I read seem to think he’s close to a deal with the Yankees though. So did Mike and Mike. We’ll see.
Don’t panic, guys, but the front page of the espn mlb page is a picture of Rowand with a caption saying that the Yankees are one of the teams chasing him.
Milledge was supposed to be a headcase so maybe that had something to do with it.
Loretta relates to Betemit, not Cano.
Betemit has been awful in winter ball and, from what I understand, isn’t losing weight.
Perhaps the Yankees have grown impatient with Betemit.
Loretta is a solid pickup. A pros, pro, who can handle the bat and play a few positions. Quality guy and a quality player.
Precisely the kind of guy you want as a utility player.
Meant to say Milledge over Church.
I believe the Mets could have traded Milage for Zito.
We’re trading for Loretta? We need a shortstop?
The twins price isn’t going up. The twins are just leaking more rumors.
Again – no one is trading them a player of cano’s value. no one. the sox certainly aren’t – pedroia isn’t going anywhere and he’s not even in cano’s class.
minnesota can keep at this – good for them trying to do everything they can.
the twins are the desperate team here. not the yankees or the sox.
2010 new publicly funded park. Owner worth $4 billion. Torii Hunter, Satana and Nathan all gone for 6 draft picks.
The twins will take the best offer they get – they are not driving the “price” here. They’ll take what they are offered. They don’t have leverage. This isn’t like the haren situation in oakland where beane will decide what the “price.”
I’m sure the Yanks kicked the tires on Rowand just to see what he wants but I would say it won’t go much further than that unless Melky gets moved.
he’s a 2b
Loretta can play 1st.
Can Betemit be optioned to the minors?
that Loretta info has been known since early this AM…nothing new there….if the rumor of Kaz Matsui to the Astros happens then Loretta will be a Rockie. Loretta is waiting to see if Cano is traded in the Santana package before he signs with Colorado
I can’t see the Yankees going after Rowand unless the price and years come down.
Matt,
Cano’s name is “coming up” because people in the media have to feed the story everyday. Gotta feed the monster in the 24 hour news cycle.
So, folks throw crap against the wall, hoping it sticks.
This isn’t rocket science. The deal stands where it stands right now. Which is, in a state of inertia.
At some point, it will be “deal time”. We aren’t there yet.
If we were, Peter Greenberg’s office would be working on a contract right now and it isn’t.
Until that happens, ignore the zillion stories that will be up on a Santana trade. They mean nothing until the Twins give a team 72 hours to do a deal with Santana.
That’s when the story becomes relevent again.
Ok, ESPN lists him as a SS…unless I’m looking at the wrong Loretta or outdated stats.
Loretta isn’t waiting for Cano. He is a utility player at this point in his career.
Robinson Cano’s status has ZERO to do with Mark Loretta.
the Loretta deal isn’t about Cano it’s about Betemit and the health of Duncan, an upgrade to the utility and 1B
BTW, the Rockies are moving Ian Stewart, their hotshot INF prospect, from third to second. That’s why they are letting Matsui go and that’s why they aren’t trading Garrett Adkins.
If Loretta went to the Rockies, he would be backing up Stewart in the same utility role he would have with the Yankees.
Check this out.
http://www.baseball-reference......ma01.shtml
He has played every infield position.
the Loretta article was also in Buster’s blog this morning – here’s the link to the article he reference:
http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_7595096
Do you think the Yankees will look to deal Betemit?
If Cano goes then Loretta will play the majority of games at 2nd perhaps or be a super utility player
SJ: Very interesting.
Especially considering how good Kaz was supposed to be…(who would go after Kaz?)
Eric (Flint, MI): Is their a way to keep Phil Hughes out of a deal? Maybe by including 2 of these 3 – Horne, Sanchez, and McCuthen as well Kennedy, Melky, and Tabata.
Jayson Stark: (1:36 PM ET ) Honestly? I don’t think so. If the Yankees say yes on Hughes, they can make this trade today. I really believe that. But they’re still debating whether they want to do that, from what other clubs are telling me.
Just when I thought we had escaped the Cano panic, it comes right back…
Cano’s not going anywhere.
When is everyone gonna realize there really isn’t much of a market for Santana at 130-150M?
Nud
November 30th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
that Loretta info has been known since early this AM…nothing new there….if the rumor of Kaz Matsui to the Astros happens then Loretta will be a Rockie. Loretta is waiting to see if Cano is traded in the Santana package before he signs with Colorado
________________________________________________
Matsui signed/accepted today with Houston for 3 years 16 mil.
Kaz signed a three year deal with the Astros for 15mil today
I just found out that Milledge is being traded to the Nationals for Church and Schneider. It will be official soon.
I don’t think signing Loretta would have anything to do with Cano. I don’t think Cano is going anywhere. It could mean that Betemit would be a throw in with the Santana trade. Maybe the Twins feel that he can be their everyday 3rd baseman. Since that is his real position. I think Loretta would sign with Colorado before he comes here the Yanks wanted him last year and he didn’t want to come here because he didn’t think he would play.
To take what SJ said a step further, or rather add to it – starting players aren’t the only guys that can be in play during the offseason. You’ve got to improve your backups as necessary. The Yankees could be doing that with Betemit. OR, it could be possible that Betemit and/or Gonzalez are being used as chips in a deal and they are simply addressing an anticipated hole. Both of those guys are pretty replaceable, and we have some nice talent within the organization to develop at SS already. I’d take Loretta as my utility infielder any day.
PA u are correct….that game was at the local bar here and me and a buddy went to enjoy the game and the 50 cent well drinks.
the Yankees are not trading Cano !
and Lorreta is what 36 yrs. old, they are not seeing Loretta as a full time at all. It has to do w/ 1B and the PT inf
GB and Maverick:
Thank you.
This blog is my one-stop news source for all things baseball!
Thanks for information on Kaz, was unaware of it.
I hope something gets done, I don’t think I will make it to Monday
Gonzalez will probably start the season in AAA, won’t he? Also does anyone know if Betemit has any options left to send him to the minors?
If the reports are true, and the Yankees are close to signing Mark Lorretta…
it only means that Wilson Betemit will be included in the package for Santana. The Twins need a 3B, and he’ll satisfy that need.
This move does not mean that Cano is going anywhere.
Loretta will likely serve as a “super” bench guy. He played at least 20 games at 1B,2B,SS and 3B in 2007, but the Yankees will probably use him in a platoon with Duncan, and as the occasional backup infielder.
The media would not put Cano’s name out there unless the Yankees had backed off on his untouchable tag a little bit…now Yankees fans are considering that he could be dealt and then you will not be shocked if he is dealt…Yankees probably leaked this as a warning to their fans…
It could mean Betemit is in another package.
Matt – A little bit of wishful thinking from a Twins fan there buddy?
If the Yanks get Santana without giving up Hughes or Cano it is a huge win for them…will be interesting to see what shakes out…hearing Billy Beane would want Hughes for Haren….Yanks are offering Kennedy
Have you all noticed that every time a team executive makes a comment on the Santana trade it says stuff like…Twins will not take Quantity, they want high quality players…or Twins will get three guys you have seen on sportcenter…These are the things that I’m listening to…The execs are the ones who know how the game works and they know what Santana is worth…
For all of you in a panic think of where we were a month ago. We were having honest conversations about Joe Crede or Betemit playing 3rd (now people don’t even think he is good enough to be a utility player). We were talking about signing Cordero as a closer or moving Joba into that role losing another starting pitcher and thinking there was a chance that Posada would go elsewhere as well. This team seems a lot better than it was a month ago without really adding anyone new. Adding Santana and this is probably one of the best offseasons this team could have ever dreamed of.
Also remember the rotation in April/May that consisted of Pavano, Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Kei Igawa, Jeff Karstens, Darrell Rasner, etc.
Cash told Cano last month to make sure Betemit was in shape to play third base come February if Cano wanted to stay at 2nd. He didn’t say it would be 3rd base for the Yankees.:smile:
Andy McPhail not being able to pull the trigger. The O’s may have a new head of baseball operations but unfortunately they have the same owner who just talks and has no cajones to actually do anything. If a Bedard deal actually happens with anyone it will be a miracle.
matt,
so you’re saying that the twins might not be lying and leaking a rumor about cano themselves to try to drive up santana’s “price” say with boston or to get the yankees to agree to hughes?
you’re right – the yankees are being so kind that they are bracing yankee fans for losing cano.
that’s much more likely than the twins having no leverage and trying to drum up a panic through the media.
that’s why the minnesota papers have “broken” so many updates on this trade – because the yankee front office is giving them information so it gets back to new york through minneapolis.
Dan,
Your mention of Duncan is a good reminder that Shelley’s medical status is a big mystery right now. The Yankees covered it up pretty tightly. I had the impression it was something similar to what happened to Kenny Rogers.
The unknowns right now are Andy, Duncan, and Santana. Cash has a lot of irons in the fire so it makes sense that he would make moves like getting Loretta. At the very least it strengthens the bench. The question is do they cut loose Betemit or Giambi?
Gayle – The word should be cojones. Cajones are boxes.
This isn’t Cashman’s first rodeo guys, he knows the ploys the Twins are pulling and I’m sure he can seperate fact from fiction
Thanks Mike lol
No es problema Gayle.
Cano has a career OPS+ of 117. Neutralized Slg: .485
Utley has a career OPS+ of 126. Neutralized Slg: .509
Over the last 3 years, they have a similar RF and Utley has a slightly better FPct by about 3 pts. Utley has many more SBs. Why use stats when opinions will do?
“the problem with this move is that minaya traded milledge at his absolutely lowest value. that’s almost always a bad move. what’s the harm in sending him to the minors and waiting until his value comes up more?”
no, you’re right. i agree.
just saying that Church isn’t chopped liver.
Wait. You mean cojones aren’t cubic?
Easier problem to fix: Knicks, Jets, Orioles? I wouldn’t want to be the GM of any of them. Knicks lose by almost 50, Jets are an underdog to an 0-11 team and the Orioles are probably the worst team that actually tries to spend money
WFAN is reporting now that the Red Sox are going after Haren, not Santana.
This is all a bunch of crap because these rumors will float all over for the next 5 days and they will change by the hour. I’d bet that the team that doesn’t get Santana, will get Haren so it will almost be a wash.
Mike and the Mad Dog should rename their program: Mike and the Mad Dog, But Mostly Commercials.
mel: Umm.
No.
You know those naked pull ups we were talking about yesterday? And the clown hair? The thing the clown hair coats? THOSE are cojones
Matt: that’s not true. The media put his name out there if they want to sell papers, sometimes.
Got this off another blog
Care to state how old each player was during those three years?
mel:
From what I understand about his condition, it was really nothing to worry about. It is the sort of thing that could be harmful if untreated, but he will probably be fine for the season.
Also, Miranda, Phillips, and maybe Eric Duncan could all see some time at first base too. I don’t think it is a big concern for the Yankees right now though.
CB-
It’s possible the Twins are leaking info about Cano, but if that were the case and Cano was 100% untradeable, wouldn’t Cashman come out and say “no cano is staying”…I think it is more likely that the Yanks leaks the info…
Think about this, before you were saying we can get Tans for Kennedy, Melky, Tabata and Jackson…
If the trade randomly went down and Cano was involved with out any warning from the fans…They might riot…EVERYONE would think they over paid…but by leaking the info it prepares everyone for the hit…
I have maintained that I think Santana is gonna cost a pretty penny for whoever gets him…I am offering a different perspective on the situation and I think that’s good for everyone to hear…
gayle is right about bedard. he’s going to turn out to be a pipe dream – tons of wasted time and angelos is going to screw the whole thing up like he did with tejada.
instead bedard will leave after 2009 when he’s a free agent and the O’s will get two picks.
Rebecca,
LOL. Remember, I’m a few years older than you.
Good lord Matt, don’t you know how this works? The media is GIVEN what to put out there OR (as in Cano’s case), just speculates on their own.
Robinson Cano isn’t getting traded.
Geez, people, we don’t have to go over this everyday.
Stark sums it up perfectly.
Right now, from the Yankees perspective, its all about Phil Hughes. In or out of the deal.
From the Red Sox perspective, if Ellsbury is in, they can make the deal. If he’s not, the Twins aren’t taking Crisp.
Phil, Santana HAS a market. The only market that matters. New York or Boston.
He doesn’t need any more of market than that to get his deal.
Maverick: Jets are easiest.
All you need is an even numbered year *wise nod*
Actually, you just need a defensive line that can play worth a damn.
Mav- I would say knicks, because Its easier to rebuild quickly in the NBA. Also, they should have a good pick this year(since its not going to the bulls) and Marburys cash coming off the books after next year. With that said, i have no confidence in the Knicks front office. If they hired a new GM TODAY, they would have the best chance. But as is… im goin with the O’s as an easier problem to fix.
Mav – Jets by far. They should get premium draft position and are not too far removed from a playoff run.
Hey Rebecca, how about a bet on Sunday’s Jets-Dolphins game. The Jets win; I eat you. The Dolphin win; you eat me. I’ll lay the points. I come with the Rabbi’s ‘OU’ Seal of Approval.
The Knicks were supposed to have money coming off the cap since the days of Ewing and then Houston and they keep eating more and more bad contracts. The NBA is better when the Knicks are good but I dont see that happening. The Jets are probably only a decent quarterback and a few d-lineman away from competing and the Orioles probably won’t be good in the next 20 years or whenever Angelos sells that team.
SJ44-
Think outside of your NYY box…Would you bet your life that Cano isn’t getting traded?…Because you seem awfully convinced…Fact of the matter is all you guys who think they know what the market on Santana is have only been listening to one perspective (the yankees side)…You have to think about the whole process and imagine is it really worth it for the Twins to trade their best player for a package they don’t want?…I don’t think it is…
Matt,
How many times has Brian Cashman ever said ANYTHING about any possible trades.
He usually goes underground when it comes to deal time.
Why does Cashman have to say ANYTHING publicly.
‘Ya think he hasn’t told the Twins what he will or won’t do?
Do yourself a favor. Stop watching/listening to ESPN, Mike and the Mad Dog, and all these other outlets.
Nobody is going to tell these guys ANYTHING of substance about these deals.
That’s why the speculation is all over the map.
I’d take the Knicks. The Knicks at least have a bunch of talent on the team. I just think they’ve tuned Isiah out. If I’m the Knicks the first thing is get rid of Isiah. The second thing I do is just cut Stephon. Get him and his Starbury attitude out of there and play Mardy Collins every day and tell him the job is his to lose.
Those two things alone will probably turn the Knicks around.
I do think Isiah is a good judge of talent however. He seems to know how to pick ‘em. Getting them to play is another story.
matt,
I like your posts. it’s interesting to hear from a twins fan on this.
However, if you think that cashman would publicly “come out ” and say “no trading cano” you just don’t know cashman’s working style nor have you heard him talk in public.
cashman says almost nothing in public about developing issues and when he does speak its a bunch of bland say nothing GM speak statements.
he said nothing publicly about arod. think about that – that was all hank steinbrenner.
cashman does not make public comments that are definitive in any way.
the twins aren’t driving the price here. they will take the best offer they get or accept draft picks.
Again, do you really think the st. paul gazette or whatever your newspaper is is getting leaks from the yankees?
That being said I would love to see the Dolphins go 0-16 so the Jets better get there act together this weekend. If they lose the Mangenius better hope he didn’t burn to many bridges calling out Belicheck
Kill-Schill: Why don’t we make it more real-er.
Jets win, you get me a $10 Amazon gift certificate for hanukah.
Miami wins, I do the same for you.
The odds are better that the Yankees deal Hughes before the Sox deal Ellsbury. Of course the Yankees have lots of Hughes clones, but I’d still like to hang on to the original.
do you guys ever wonder what is going through players minds when they may be traded?
i can’t help but think of phil hughes sitting at home, turning on the tv or reading a newspaper. “He’s going.” “He’s staying” “He’s going” “He’s staying.” Phil must be going insane!!
i know i am…
Doug,
you heard this from WFAN yourself? whats their source?
nate c.
do you think phil ever reads stuff like this and says to himself,”man those people are a bunch of wackos, its just a game right?”
I think that Ian’s the one who’s a little nervous right now.
Becca, I prefer flesh to money– and I can do a mean imitation of Johhny Damon doing pull-ups– but if you insist.
Matt,
Have fun when “Tans” walks at the end of the year and the ‘Twins Perspective’ is left with two draft picks.
I am sure that is the package they really want.
No offense Rebecca, but a $10 gift certificate from Amazon.com doesn’t even pay shipping and handling costs anymore.
You know, if I’m Ian or Phil, my thoughts are:
They want to trade me for Santana? They think I’m as good as Johan Santana?
I rule the universe.
At least, optimistically, that’s what I’d be thinking!
I am not listening to ESPN…Otherwise I would agree with you…ESPN is saying the stuff that you are saying right now, I’m listening to the important people like the other GMs and Baseball Executives…The Yankees organization has stated that Cano and Joba are off limits before, that’s basically coming from Cashman’s mouth…If the media was putting stuff out there that isn’t true then you can imagine he would say it’s not true…The only person that it is hurting to have Cano’s name in the media is Cano himself…If Cano was not in the deal then Cashman would be protecting his player and telling him not to worry you’re going no where…
“Milledge is the classic example of why don’t you don’t fall in love with every prospect you have in the system.”
i disagree that Milledge is a good example of this concept. we don’t really know yet how Milledge will turn out.
if he turns out to be an all-star it proves exactly the opposite of what you are saying.
he’s only 22. it’s simply too early to know the book on Lastings Milledge.
he might turn into the poster-boy for why you SHOULDN’T trade prospects for vets. of course the Mets would have to take down their old poster with Kazmir on it.
mel,
but here’s the issue for the twins.
the red sox refuse to trade ellesbury. the yankees refuse to trade hughes.
what are the twins going to do? at that point they’ll either need to take an offer on the table or keep santana and lose him for picks.
i do not think the sox are going to put in ellsbury. that’s one of the reasons I don’t think the yankees will need to offer hughes.
the yankees can be patient and sweeten the deal in other ways besides hughes. unless they panic.
Matt,
I can think outside my NYY box quite nicely thank you.
Robinson Cano isn’t getting traded for Johan Santana.
The Yankees aren’t trading BOTH their under 30 everyday players for Santana.
Not going to happen.
Now, if you want to fret over it, convince yourself its going to happen, there is nothing I can do about it.
Cano isn’t in play for Santana.
Do you want to know why? Its because he will be an 8-10 million dollar a year player in another year and there is no way the Twins are paying that kind of money.
In other words, its for the same reason why the Twins want Ellsbury instead of Crisp. CASH.
Its about the money. It always is when it comes to the Twins.
sunny: Actually, it does if you know how to use it. And besides, I’m amassing a collection, so every little bit helps!
Money talks!
Those quotes were not from Cashman. They were from Hank, and the before you are referring to was last week talking about the Johan Santana trade. Do you really expect Hank Steinbrenner to come out and reiterate himself everytime a media outlet throws a rumor out there?
maverick – yes. haha.
but you have to think phil would love to stay in NY because he made it through the farm system and Cashman has held onto him for this long?
I noticed that Rebecca. You mentioned yesterday that you asked for a gift certificate from your parents as well. Any reason. Is there some Amazon super item you’re shooting for?
Matt,
Cashman doesn’t talk about trades. There is nothing anywhere among people who are actually wired into the Yankees that state their original position in the deal (No Cano, Chamberlain or Hughes) has changed.
Not ONE person with Yankee contacts has reported, on or off the record, the Yankees position has changed.
If it does change, the pecking order starts and ends with Hughes, not Cano to be included in the deal.
Any word on any bullpen deals?
Mark Loretta’s career total of only 554 strikeouts in 5,370 at bats suggests that he’s a bonafide contact hitter and never to be confused with Wilson Betemit.
He clearly knows how to advance runners and keep rallies going.
“Do you want to know why? Its because he will be an 8-10 million dollar a year player in another year and there is no way the Twins are paying that kind of money.
In other words, its for the same reason why the Twins want Ellsbury instead of Crisp. CASH.”
I agree 100% with this, BUT, all im saying here is for pure argument and speculation, if im the twins and i can get either coco or cano, i take cano because flipping him will bring in so much more than flipping crisp.
So, money is not the reason why they dont want cano, because cano would be very easy to flip and upgrade with a nice package of young cheap players. Much more than Crisp.
But i dont see this happening….
Another to keep in mind, Matt. The Yankees are in an anomolous position becuase although young pitching is more valuable than young position players, the Yankees have a surplus of the former and shortage of the latter.
The Yankees can’t afford to trade Cano (or even Austin Jackson) for that matter because they have so few genuine, ripe hitting prospects in their system ready to burgeon in the majors.
And with an aging roster– only Cano and Melky– are the Yankees only starters under 30, these two players are more valuable to the Yankees than they would be in the abstract.
They could replace Melky with Gardner or Jackson, because Melky’s greatest asset is offense. THey have no one in their system who could replace Cano’s offensive production.
Just look at it from the Yankees’ perspective.
Matt,
You are listening to other GM’s and baseball exec’s? Are you friends with them? I didn’t realize MN was a hotbed where baseball people congregated. All of the talk you hear has been purposefully fed to the media, and if you haven’t noticed the media isn’t exactly enamored with the Yankees.
Melky’s greatest asset is defense, rather.
So Rebecca? Do we have a deal?
Matt has incurred the wrath of the blog.
Mike R: Not sure yet. I’m wavering between one item in particular or lots of smaller items…will probably go for lots of smaller items.
Right now, in my cart I have
memory card for camera, and three different ‘coffee-table’ books, for which I have an incredible weakness. I LOVE glossy things.
For my birthday last year I got one for my parents and stretched it out to pay for two books, two CDs (I’m old school) and thirteen jigsaw puzzles. Yes, thirteen.
Mike R: people who love books just love to have Amazon gift certificates. I can relate to Rebecca on this one
Cashman will put heavy emphasis on bullpen fixing during the Nashville meetings. Of that, lefthanders are a priority.
No, no I think we’ve treated him respectfully. I just think we need to disabuse his misconceptions. Think of this forum as Yankee Re-Education Camp.
Kill-Schill: I don’t do flesh.
Sorry.
CB,
Agreed. As Bobcat said impatience is expensive.
I say hold the line and let the chips fall where they may. As the days go by I’m more “like, whatever”.
Thank you Andrea and Rebecca. It’s good to know. Whenever I’m stuck on what to get someone I now have a alternative.
BTW – 13??? Really???? Was it a buy 3 get 10 free sale or something?
Rebecca,
Why don’t you bet the airfare to London?
You drive a hard bargain. $10, it is then, Becca.
I think Boston will go after Santana long enough until they get him, or as long as it takes for the Yanks to get nervous and include Hughes. Then they will feel like they did there job and then go after Haren. I wonder what Beane would want for Haren? I am assuming the same Santana package…Hughes, Melky, Tabata/Jackson, Horne…Everyone know Beane and he is not giving Haren or anyone of his players away for nothing or just Kennedy. Beane is saying blow me away with a package and then I will make a trade. I would rather have Haren then Santana. Santana has shown over the last couple of years that after a certain amount of innings his arm is done.
Or hitting into inning ending double plays, at least WIlson has the decency to stike out and only account for one out.
Kill-Shill(ing) – You either work in sales or should. Trust me. I should know.
Slow day on the Santana front, only more speculation.
I anticipate this deal getting done prior to the Winter Meetings.
Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein, if genuinely interested, which they appear to be, don’t want to let Bill Smith bring this monster in to the meetings and allow even more potential bidders to undermine what they are attempting to do.
Mike: 1 3000 piece one, 1 2-in-1 1000 piece each, and then one 10-in-one, raging 100 pieces to 500.
The 3000 piece one took me the entire month of may.
Mel: Cos I’m not into putting him out $650
Kill Schill: Excellent.
SJ44-
You are the one who has convinced himself of things…Stop acting like you know exactly what is going to happen…you are not in Cashman’s head…I am offering a different perspective, if you can not handle it then do not read my posts…You don’t know how good Santana is, neither do most Yankees fans…They have all tricked themselves into believing that the Twins are going to do the Yankees a favor and give them Santana for pennies on the dollar, but guess what it won’t happen…
Mike R-
My point was that the message was from the Yankees brass…If you have a All-Star player who is going to be a Yankee for a long time, which would be the case if Cano is truly untouchable…You would want to protect him…Look at the Chicago Bulls like Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich, trade rumors are not a happy thing for a player to hear…If Yankees were not trading Cano they would not be putting him through unnecessary pain, they’d pat him on the back and tell him everything is all-right…
CB-
I like your posts too…We are both very logical people, I like that in a dude…You are not acting like you know what is going to happen, you’re just riding the wave like I am…
Sorry guys, this has nothing to do with baseball but:
Man claiming to have a bomb holding one or more hostages at Hillary Clinton’s Rochester, N.H. campaign office. Suspect had what appeared to be a bomb strapped to himself… Developing…
http://www.wmur.com/news/14737868/detail.html
I think the Red Sox don’t really want him. It would screw up their payroll and possibly team chemistry.($25 million players have a way of doing that) I believe that just like you, Theo would rather have Haren.
If you wish to raise the ante Becca, you can contact me at mrmsabbath@yahoo.com.
Otherwise, I’ll assume a $10 Amazon Gift Certificate is the wager.
Hmmn one of these days, I’m going to convince a woman to wager sexual favors. (Although some NYU girl propositioned me in the library yesterday.) I guess I’ll have to wait until the opportunity presents itself in person.
Lynx,
other bidders? At Santana’s price tag for an extension?
Lynx,
Is that you, Bobcat?
god bless anyone in possible jeopardy up in New Hampshire.
Kill-shill,
You’re kidding right? I might block the New York schools from my son, lol.
Thanks Mike R. Nope, just a bored lawyer.
Matt – What makes you think they haven’t reached out to Cano and reassured him that he is safe and will not be traded? They don’t have to do that publicly.
Just a reminder for everyone just how good Santana is…
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....ark_jayson
About the library proposition, no. I wish I were. The problem was should looked more like 14 than 20, the age she claimed. Otherwise, I might have explored the option further. Who am I to turn down a woman in need? It’s not like they line-up at my door.
Haha yes Mike R you are right I have pushed some buttons here…
I appreciate all the posts though and I’m reading them all…but I can’t reply to all of them I’m not that quick…
migames-
Your post about the Twins being short of money…To a degree you are right…but don’t forget that the Twins actually offered Santana 90 million dollars over 5 years and we would have had to sign the M&M boys after that…It isn’t like we don’t have any money…If we traded for a Cano type player we could and would pay him…The Twins are a team that wants to win, and their pay-roll is slowly climbing up and up…with the new stadium we will have some extra revenue so money isn’t as big of an issue as you might think…
Lynx-that makes sense actually
Kill-Schill(ing) – That’s why you always ask women for ID and have them sign an affidavit.
No, I am not Bobcat, just a guy who loves the Yankees, is an English Lit nerd, and likes wordplay
but I think that sums it up for the day, right? not too much news on the santana front today.
Wow, Kill Schill, I really don’t want to read about your sexual proclivities or frustrations on a NYY board.
Matt – Even if I don’t agree with some of your opinions I consider you to be cool. You don’t come around looking to stir things up. I decided to make my little comment/joke to defuse the situation a bit.
wooh you got that right
Pohlad’s a loathsomely frugal owner: evokes some Scrooge-like Dickenisan character.
When baseball fans decry the profligate Steinbrenner they should include the skinflints like Pohlad in their condemnations.
Mike R-
That could certainly be a possibility…The Yankess could have reached out to him in private…I never said I was speaking truth like SP44 did, I am just speculating and giving you all a different perspective on the situation
Matt,
To SJ44′s defense, NONE OF US know ANYTHING about what is going on behind the scenes. We know what the media tells us and everything is just speculation.
Something will happen sooner or later and it will continue to get beaten to the pavement in this chat room because that is what this is, a chat room and nothing more. None of us know jack sh*t about what is going on behind the scenes.
hooray for English majors, Lynx. Hooray.
Matt,
I don’t know how good Santana is? lol That’s pretty funny since I have advocated putting Santana in pinstripes for the last two months. Even going so far as saying that Hughes has to be in the deal.
However, for a guy who is leaving Minnesota (if he is not dealt) after 2008, has a full no trade, and only has 3 teams (perhaps only one who really wants him) who can afford his new contract, I feel pretty safe in saying Robinson Cano is not going to be in the deal.
Its not going to happen. Nothing has changed, nor will change with the Yankees on that point for the reasons several people have discussed in the thread.
They will walk away from Santana before trading Cano for him.
Dan – Would you say you are an ugly man?…You are a VERY UGLY MAN! I love those commercials.
Matt: Seeing as you’re a Twins fan, what’s your take on Pohlad? As the image I’m getting from this blog is that while he is someone who CAN afford Santana (after all, he’s worth at least a couple billion), but *WON’T* give Santana the deal he wants
Ya Mike R…I can back off, it is no problem I am just making my case…I love to debate so I sometimes go a lil crazy…I am reading most of the posts here, but when I start hearing people say things as fact I try and disprove that…
Hey, did we get any bobcat updates today?
matt
I have no idea what the twins payroll is or how it want to be seen. SJ argument was that the twins didnt want Cano because he will cost $10M, my counterargument was that they could flip cano to another team and get a bagfull of great players (cheap and young).
But you are right, i have no idea how the twins payroll is trending.
mel
November 30th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
I think that Ian’s the one who’s a little nervous right now.
__________________________________________________
Mel, what would Kennedy have to be worried about. He’s still practicing his honeymoon.
No Bobcat sightings today.
Mark Fiensand says Red Sox aren’t favorites
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/yankees/
thanks Mike
Blargh
My opinion on Pohlad is pretty poor…but I do not worry about it…I have come to except it and realized that it is not going to change…Plus I take a lot of pride in the way the Twins do their business…We scout good players and we use our money efficiently, that is how all buisneses should be run…I do not think Pohlad is any more greedy than ARod…
who wants to bet next week this time we are still talking about where johans gonna end up?
No way GreenBeret. Kennedy’s girl is playing basketball right now at USC.
Matt :
Minnesota is mostly novice in high stakes dealing and in particular the new GM, Bill Smith.
Brian Cashman, even being as young as he is (40), is old hat at this game. As cool as the other side of the pillow.
Once this deal is said and done, Bill Smith would be wise to enroll at the Brian Cashman Academy of Stealth Dealing.
Matt
Here’s a lesson about NY. If GM’s addressed everything that was said or reported on that wasn’t true there wouldn’t be enough time left in the day to get anything done.
Kill-Schill $10 is fine by me
Yeah, I guess female sports fans are still kind of abnormal, aren’t they?
Does anyone believe that Haren is worth the same package as Santana? In fact I wouldn’t trade Kennedy+Melky+anyone for him.
“An armed man believed to be carrying a bomb walked into the presidential campaign office of Sen. Hillary Clinton in Rochester, New Hampshire, today and took two hostages, according to police”
no santana news breaking today, here is some nut job news breaking
Here’s a lesson about NY. If GM’s addressed everything that was said or reported on that wasn’t true there wouldn’t be enough time left in the day to get anything done.
Catherine -
Thanks for the link. Great picture of Santana there. So, does Johan know the cute beard has to go? His is one of the very few in baseball I actually think looks good. It’s flattering and it’s neat.
I mean, since he wants to come to NY and all, he does realize if he is a Yankee, he will need a shave.
raymagnetic,
my point exactly
what are the chances of getting haran and santana? of course we would lose highes, kennedy and melky + prospects.
any possibility?
Actually, I think Bill Smith is doing a good job with what he has to work with. He has the Yankees and Red Sox pitted against one another in the Santana Sweepstakes.
Its better than two draft picks.
The problem is, he is working with a bad hand. A great player, full no trade, is gone after 2008, and his contractual demands are so high, only a couple of teams can meet it.
His best deal may be from a team Santana does want to go to, making his job even tougher.
I see why Terry Ryan retired! lol
Bill Smith is trying to make the best of a tough situation.
Maverick – Nobody is going to say that Haren is as good as Santana, but he is very good, is signed on the cheap for the next three years and has no no-trade clause. That adds to the appeal.
Marc: no.
The cost would be way too high.
marc,
Zero. They won’t get both. Its tough enough trying to get one of them. No way they get both.
marc: they could go hughes+melky+tabata for Santana and Kennedy+Horne+Jackson for Haren but I don’t see both happening nor do I think they need both of them a rotation of Santana,Pettitte,Joba,Hughes/Kennedy,Moose should be tough to beat
Something else to add to the Loretta/Betimit thing. Betimit is arbitration eligible. Do the Yankees really want to go through that process with him if they can get Loretta withouth any of the agnst and on top of that perhaps incloude him in some kind of deal??
Same thing with Cano if the Twins dont want to pay later they may have to pay sooner as he is also arbitration eligible and if he goes in a trade they have to go through that process or sign him to a deal. On top of the fact I eprsonally believe there is no way you trade Cano.
Also for all the Andy Phillips fans here found this on the Yankees website
Phillips chairs ‘Miracle’: Yankees first baseman Andy Phillips will serve as the honorary chair for the Children’s Aid Society’s Miracle on Madison Avenue on Sunday, helping benefit New York children in need of health services.
From noon to 5 p.m. ET, nearly 100 participating Madison Avenue establishments between 57th and 86th Streets will donate 20 percent of the day’s sales to The Children’s Aid Society’s health care programs.
The event will start at noon with an opening ceremony, during which Phillips and his wife, Bethany, will take part in a ribbon-cutting at Madison Avenue and 69th Street.
Santana was at his best at Woodstock.
How do you think Pohlad became a billionaire? By being a greedy banker.
Not that there’s anything wrong with being greedy.
How bout this for speculation:
Let’s give the Twins Cano, Hughes, Melky, and A-Rod for Santana and pay 90% of all those contracts.
NFL Network is on RCN. Time Warner sucks regardless of the presence or absense of NFL Network. RCN is better and cheaper.
Call RCN and try to get them in your building (at least in Manhattan).
The plus side for Bill Smith is he’s got Joe Nathan to dangle in front of the NL Central xP
That said, with the expected youngsters from these trades (I really doubt that he’d settle for the draft picks), the Twins should be good by the time of their new stadium.
Actually, lots of it came through inheritance.
Maverick – Don’t forget Wang.
how about we go w/ insert foot to a$$ ?
Maverick,
Sanatana,Haren, Andy, Joba,Wang…how does that sound?
O yeah, wow. He kind of gets left in the dark after a couple bad October starts. Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Joba, and Hughes. With Moose as a 6th starter would be very nice
I think that sounds better than Pavano, Igawa, Clippard, Wright, Karstens and Rasner sprinkled in with Pettitte like last April/May
Matt
November 30th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
SJ44-
You are the one who has convinced himself of things…Stop acting like you know exactly what is going to happen…you are not in Cashman’s head…I am offering a different perspective, if you can not handle it then do not read my posts…You don’t know how good Santana is, neither do most Yankees fans…They have all tricked themselves into believing that the Twins are going to do the Yankees a favor and give them Santana for pennies on the dollar, but guess what it won’t happen…
Mike R-
My point was that the message was from the Yankees brass…If you have a All-Star player who is going to be a Yankee for a long time, which would be the case if Cano is truly untouchable…You would want to protect him…Look at the Chicago Bulls like Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich, trade rumors are not a happy thing for a player to hear…If Yankees were not trading Cano they would not be putting him through unnecessary pain, they’d pat him on the back and tell him everything is all-right…
CB-
I like your posts too…We are both very logical people, I like that in a dude…You are not acting like you know what is going to happen, you’re just riding the wave like I am…
___________________________________________________
Cashman and Steinbrenner have said from the beginning that the two untouchables were Chamberlain and Cano, and only to a slightly lesser degree, Hughes. Cashman said it once, and Steinbrenner, aka “The Mouth From The South” has said it a quite a few occasions. What makes you think that Cashman hasn’t told Cano this personally? It would be none of the public’s business.
It should come as no surprise to see the real down and dirty part of the Santana deal take place after this weekend and at the winter meetings in Nashville. Text messaging and cell phones are great but face-to-face meetings in hotel rooms can have greater impact. Brian Cashman will likely depart from his Conn. home Saturday afternoon and leave LaGuardia for Nashville rested and above all, prepared for Monday. Hank Steinbrenner will leave Tampa early next week and make himself available to support Brian.
Meantime, the media can trip over one another in the hotel lobby looking for meat like starved vultures.
a couple things (since like typical Yankees fans..many of you are completely ignorant of baseball outside of the Yankees and way overvalue players within your own system (with the exception of A-Rod…who’s shoelaces Jeter (the worst fielding shortstop in baseball) aren’t fit to tie):
1. MN is not interested in Wang (um, they had this virtually identical pitcher called Silva who they’re not resigning) or Farnsworth.
2. MN isn’t especially interested in Kennedy…they already have Slowey who is extremely similar.
3. MN isn’t especially interested in prospects, except as throw-ins. they’re looking to win now…not rebuild. Tabata/Jackson…aren’t ready now so they’re not of special interest.
4. they want a cheap stud young pitcher and a cheap young stud position player. they have massive amounts of minor league pitching depth so that doesn’t interest them.
5. ok, so maybe MN isn’t going to get everything it wants. well, they’re going to get part of it. they can always hold on to Santana and make a run for the series this year (remember they get Liriano back). if they make a run…they might just resign him after all. or, if they don’t contend but he has a stud season (its his contract year after all), they can trade him for at least as good talent in July as what’s being talked about here now (teams contending for a series in July can get pretty desperate).
6. so, since they’re going to get part of what they want…since the Yankees don’t have a stud young cheap position player to give them (the closest thing is Cano and he’s not going to be cheap), they Yankees will have to give MN stud pitching. which is why, when all is said and done, if Santana’s in pinstripes, Hughes won’t be.
7. to the dimwit morons who keep saying that “Santana’s numbers for the past four years have been trending down”…STFU. um, try looking at his numbers for the last four years before saying something that idiotic. (hint: his ERA/WHIP were down a little last year….but the year before they were the same as the previous years…and he won his second Cy Young). morons.
All the angst about kennedy or hughes, hughes or kennedy.
Make it easy, trade em both and get Haren and Santana.
Andy wants another ring, he will be back with a rotation of
Santana, Haren, Pettitte, Joba and Wang.
Call me crazy, but I still really want to see Joba, Hughes and Kennedy pitch on the same staff for at least one full season before any of them gets traded. I, for one, will be sad to see us trade some of our best young talent for Santana (which appears to be inevitable at this point). Even if Santana rebounds from last season and returns to “top” form, how many great or truly dominating years does he have left? In the meantime, it’s true that we don’t know yet how any of the “Big Three” will pan out over the course of a career, but they do have their entire careers ahead of them at this point.
I know one thing for sure…It would be a dagger in the heart to see Santana go down with an arm injury after a few subpar years with the Yanks whilst Kennedy and/or Hughes are knocking ‘em dead season after season for another club.
Has Bobcat been around today with any info?
Is this what New York does to good wholesome Mid-western folk?
No Bobcat yet today
Why would anyone who is this enfuriated with “Ignorant Yankee Fans” spend his time reading this thread? On top of that spend more time writing a 500 word essay?
By the way Twins Fan. The numbers most critics keep mentioning are BA against and SLG against over the last three years. Take that for what it’s worth.
What, you dont read Twin’s blogs in your free time?
“Is this what New York does to good wholesome Mid-western folk?”
well, I grew up in Europe, midwestern parents. But I’ve been living in NY for quite some time. just still cheer for the teams I cheered for growing up. loyalty and all that. but I’ll call an idiot an idiot (harsh, I know…I’m sure they’re just repeating something they read on another blog somewhere without actually bothering to look up stats…but still….)
Actually, if fury doesn’t cause a man to leave, then it’ll cause a man to pound out lengthy diatribes
Curiously, there is no middle ground
TwinsfaninNY:
If you want to talk rationally about what may or may not be considered in a trade, that’s fine.
If you want to berate us for knowing nothing in a juvenile fashion, that’s also fine.
However, by attempting to do both, you will accomplish neither.
Twins fan,
Santana has an NTC and a 120M+ price tag, it’s not like you guys are peddling a guy who already has a contract with a bunch of years left. This will end up being the most expensive trade and sign deal in ML history. It’s gonna be very hard for the Twins to get what the want, cause only 1 or possibly 2 teams can afford to negotiate Santana’s record deal. Since the market is so smallm the Twins don’t have a lot of leverage. They could decide not to trade him, which would be just fine with teams who can afford to get him in FA.
rodg12
November 30th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
No way GreenBeret. Kennedy’s girl is playing basketball right now at USC
___________________________________________________-
Certainly, it wouldn’t sap a woman athlete’s strength the same as it does to a man. They don’t have as much work to do.
TwinsfaninNY-
If Santana is in pinstripes next year, it’ll be because Cashman had his way with your new GM.
Posada cast his vote about getting Santana yesterday and Papelbon countered it today by saying the Sox should get him but Ellsbury can’t be included. Papelbon also said he wants to get a long term deal done by spring training or else he’ll take his chances in arbitration after the 2008 season. He should send Mariano a nice gift for setting the bar for him.
Mike R.:
just look at his ERA+ or WHIP. strikeouts too.
(and I’ll point out that Yankees fans will be ecstatic if Hughes or Joba ever manage to have a full season as “poor” as the one Santana had last year)
TwinsfaninNY
November 30th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
a couple things (since like typical Yankees fans..many of you are completely ignorant of baseball outside of the Yankees and way overvalue players within your own system (with the exception of A-Rod…who’s shoelaces Jeter (the worst fielding shortstop in baseball) aren’t fit to tie):
1. MN is not interested in Wang (um, they had this virtually identical pitcher called Silva who they’re not resigning) or Farnsworth.
2. MN isn’t especially interested in Kennedy…they already have Slowey who is extremely similar.
3. MN isn’t especially interested in prospects, except as throw-ins. they’re looking to win now…not rebuild. Tabata/Jackson…aren’t ready now so they’re not of special interest.
4. they want a cheap stud young pitcher and a cheap young stud position player. they have massive amounts of minor league pitching depth so that doesn’t interest them.
5. ok, so maybe MN isn’t going to get everything it wants. well, they’re going to get part of it. they can always hold on to Santana and make a run for the series this year (remember they get Liriano back). if they make a run…they might just resign him after all. or, if they don’t contend but he has a stud season (its his contract year after all), they can trade him for at least as good talent in July as what’s being talked about here now (teams contending for a series in July can get pretty desperate).
6. so, since they’re going to get part of what they want…since the Yankees don’t have a stud young cheap position player to give them (the closest thing is Cano and he’s not going to be cheap), they Yankees will have to give MN stud pitching. which is why, when all is said and done, if Santana’s in pinstripes, Hughes won’t be.
7. to the dimwit morons who keep saying that “Santana’s numbers for the past four years have been trending downâ€â€¦STFU. um, try looking at his numbers for the last four years before saying something that idiotic. (hint: his ERA/WHIP were down a little last year….but the year before they were the same as the previous years…and he won his second Cy Young). morons.
Wow. This has gotta be the most ignorant post I’ve seen in a while. Everything I’ve heard suggests the Twins are rebuilding, primarily for 2010 when their new ballpark opens. If they were trying to “win now” they would probably hold onto Satana and take the picks. Also comparing Wang to Silva is ludicrous. Wow…just wow.
Actually, lots of it came through inheritance.
None of it came through inheritance, he was born poor as dirt and grew up during the great depression.
The redsox are overrated. If we came into 07 with the staff we finished with we go to the WS. Half of our starts came from unknown rookies in 1st 1/2 of season. We were the only team they feared and we owned them the 2nd 1/2 of season. All things being equal I like our chances vs. them even if they got santana. With Andy (key), Joba, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy/Mussina , I still like our staff over theirs. The key would be the bullpen.
This morning I received a text message from my cousin stating “the hicks got santana, hopefully he becomes a pavano for them.” Needless to say I got out of bed with an instant headache, turned the computer on, and came straight to this site.
He clearly read some random headline that the twins have generated to drive the price up. After reading through this site and a couple of other articles I’m going to just stop stressing it. There is no way of knowing what is going on between the yanks and minny so there is no reason we should stress ourselves out.
Lets just trust the yanks have a plan to do whatever is best fitting for the team…if that means get johan or going after haren; let them do what they get paid to do.
They understand the value of our prospects especially hughes, that is why he is STILL a yankee. When its all said and done if Johan wants to be a yankee it’s where he will end up.
I love guys like Twins fan in NY. I do not like them….I love them. They are great for a laugh when they come on an NY fan blog and dissect every statement on the blog all the while sounding ridiculous.
Phil, that’s why I noted that the Twins won’t get everything they want…but they want two things…and they’re going to get one of them and a half-assed version of the other. since the Yankees can’t offer a stud position player…it’s gonna have to be a pitcher.
cause the Twins can get at least a half assed version of each (i.e. Kennedy and Cabrera) in July….maybe more.
they don’t have to trade him now.
“Call me crazy, but I still really want to see Joba, Hughes and Kennedy pitch on the same staff for at least one full season ”
Are you sure you want 3 rookies making up 3/5ths of your rotation? If Pettitte does not come back, a rotation of Wang, Mussina, Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy is a risk that I do not believe Cashman intends to take. Especially considering the state of mind that Wang might be in given his post-season failures. Secondly, two of those three rookies won’t be able to pitch a full season based on the number of innings the Yankees will let them pitch. Even if Pettite comes back and they go with a 6 man rotation to cover the innings concern, you’d still have half of your rotation unproven over a full season.
I see no way that the Yankees do not trade one of the trinity to get a more proven arm in the rotation. I’m hoping its Santana but I’d take Haren.
Your only mistake is in the assumption that I am a Johan hater. I am far from that. I actually scrapped with someone in a previous post defending Johan’s place as the #1 pitcher in all of baseball. I’ve seen the numbers.
GB:
I have to disagree with you about the woman athlete bit…but then again, I’m not an athlete so what do I know…
TwinfaninNY says:
“well, I grew up in Europe, midwestern parents. But I’ve been living in NY for quite some time. just still cheer for the teams I cheered for growing up. loyalty and all that. but I’ll call an idiot an idiot (harsh, I know…I’m sure they’re just repeating something they read on another blog somewhere without actually bothering to look up stats…but still….)”
So basically you’re just a douche bag…
“Wow. This has gotta be the most ignorant post I’ve seen in a while. Everything I’ve heard suggests the Twins are rebuilding, primarily for 2010 when their new ballpark opens. If they were trying to “win now†they would probably hold onto Satana and take the picks.”
um, so wtf did they trade Garza for Young then? duh.
and, no, the MN press is not talking about them rebuilding.
“Also comparing Wang to Silva is ludicrous. Wow…just wow.”
huh? adjust for the parks they pitch in. adjust for run support. nearly the same pitcher. seriously.
Twins Fan:
Bro, chill.
Santana has the Twins by the short ones, period. Yes, they can keep him. Yes, they can try to win the series next year (which they won’t) with him.
No way is Pohlad going to give him $25 million x 6. Why not give it to him now? Not the Twins way, and you should know that, being a Twins fan.
At the trade deadline, the Yankees pitching will be worth more, not less, with half a regular season under their belts, and they (and Santana) will likely decide to wait it out until the end of the season.
The NTC is killer here. Have fun with the draft picks if a trade with the Yankees is not consummated within the next week or so.
Santana is undoubtedly the guy to look for if the Yankees want a quality left-handed starter. One lefty starter is already off of the market. Our old friend (and I use that term loosely) Kenny Rogers is re-signing with the Tigers, according to ESPNews.
Joey Ramone:
“So basically you’re just a douche bag…”
hahahahahah!!!! comment of the day, right there….
TwinsfaninNY-
Everyday that goes by, Santana’s value as a trading chip goes down. Smith can get more now than at the deadline, because at the deadline his only trading partner is still going to be the Yankees. And if the Yanks need him that bad at the deadline, they’ll just wait til Free Agency.
GreenBeret7
That is a very sexist attitude. Yet sad for you if that has been your experience.
“At the trade deadline, the Yankees pitching will be worth more, not less, with half a regular season under their belts, and they (and Santana) will likely decide to wait it out until the end of the season.”
PYF:
a little remedial lesson about young pitching (are any of you blokes familiar with MLB?):
as of next July, one of the Holy Trinity (TM) will have spent much of the season injured. one will have regressed and pitched poorly overall (with flashes of promise). if the Yankees are lucky, one will have pitched well.
if you don’t realize that, you’re unfamiliar with the game of baseball.
Pitt/Yankee Fan,
You are correct sir! Bottom line is NTC. Johan wants to pitch here, with a winner. Our best bet would be to wait it out one year. Wait til 09 when the FA market is ripe and dynasty days will return in our new park, just like the old park.
Adam:
wrong. at the trading deadline, every team in contention will be a potential trading partner for Santana. (cause they’ll trade for him even just for a rental.)
for example, two years ago MN offered Garza and Bartlett for just two months of Soriano at the July deadline.
Where is the Bobcat?
I take his lack of posts as a possibility he is busy with upcoming trade news. Whether or not these trades have any correlation to the Santana Saga remains to be seen.
Two things I’ve noticed have been beaten to death in this forum and need to stop:
1) Whoever the broken record is who keeps posting “Santana is a free-agent in 2009, just sign him in a year instead of giving up the farm for a 1 year rental” – please stop posting, you are inept. If Santana gets dealt, which he most certainly will be before the July 31 deadline, he is getting signed to a multi year contract worth $130+ million.
2) The Red Sox are posturing and doing their job in driving up the price for the Yankees or any surprising team (Angels? Dodgers?) capable of paying Santana & offering a package of high ceiling prospects. Doesn’t mean Boston can’t pull the trigger on a deal but it seems unlikely.
3) I don’t think the tipping point for this trade is necessarily New Yorks willingness or lack thereof to include Hughes in a deal (and I hope I’m right), because I think the Twins know the Yankees are stacked in the RHP category and can offer two very good pitching prospects which would make up for the exclusion of Phil in the trade proposal.
Make no mistake, Bill Smith knows after giving up a two-time Cy Young winner, he will need to stand in front of a podium and tell Twin fans they got “this” in exchange for Santana. However, he is not going to let damage control and the need for “a big name†interfere with the best possible package… even if that package has a bunch of pitching prospects Minnesota fans have never heard of.
No they aren’t you ignoramous. In the two full seasons that Wang has been a starter these are the numbers which are park adjusted.
2006 Wang ERA+124 2006 Silva ERA+75
2007 Wang ERA+121 2007 Silva ERA+103
And Wang has had Jeter as his shortstop the past couple of years who is a horrible defender.
twinsfan,
your (poor) logic is giving me a headache. leave us alone.
TwinsfaninNY:
You’re a bit angry aren’t you?
Three things.. that is
TwinsfaninNY,
I hate to burst your bubble, but banking on Liriano next year to anchor your staff is about the dumbest thing a team can do.
With or without Santana, they won’t win it next year. I hate to break all the Yankee fan hearts in here, but Boston isn’t exactly getting worse and at this point, they are the team to beat, like it or not. Anaheim is no slouch either, nor is Cleveland or Detroit.
The Twins are rebuilding and using this “we want to try and win next year” as a front to as to not piss off their fans for trading away the best pitcher in the game.
And whoever said this is right: this isn’t just a player swap. Whatever team gets this clown has to pay $150 million and 4 prospects which is absolutely retarded when you think about it.
Who knows, the Twins might really be better off just keeping him til he becomes an FA and taking the draft picks. That will doubtfully occur, but we’ll see.
Oye como va!
Twins Fan in NY-
Sorry…Silva and Wang are just not the same pitcher. Give me a break. So they both throw a sinker? That’s about it. Wang’s groudball to flyball ratio for his career is 2.70. Silva’s is 1.59. He’s got a better career WHIP. He’s never had a season where he posted a 5.94 ERA. I don’t care what ballpark you pitch in that is HORRIBLE. Wang’s given up just 11 more hits than innings pitched in his career. Silva has given up close to 200 more hits than innings pitched. Get a clue
Kennedy’s gonna be really good. He was minor league pitcher of the year this year and was outstanding in his major league starts. I’m not kidding, he reminds a lot of people of Mussina, and a lot of people of Catfish Hunter. I’d rather not make any deal at all, and just wait to see if Santana becomes a free agent. The Twins will get a much better talent deal on Nathan.
“huh? adjust for the parks they pitch in. adjust for run support. nearly the same pitcher. seriously.”
uh, not even close.
ERA+
Wang – 119
Silva – 102
and ERA+ is adjusted for ballpark.
what on earth are you talking about?
twinsfan….you cant berate people for not looking at stats when you dont yourself
ERA+(park adjusted stat for pitchers, 100 is ML avg)
Silva: 103
Wang: 121
no seriously, you almost had no one convinced
raymagnetic:
fair enough…Wang was a bit better than Silva in 2007. but not a lot better. not enough for MN to want Wang (who’s not ideal for the dome being a similar style pitcher to Silva).
Rebecca–Optimist Prime
November 30th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
GB:
I have to disagree with you about the woman athlete bit…but then again, I’m not an athlete so what do I know…
____________________________________________________
Guess I should put a smiley face on here.
haha sorry hmmmm, didnt refresh before i posted
I am glad we have an “expert” baseball analyst here like TwinsfaninNY.
Fact is the Twins must trade Santana or look really bad. If they get their way, either the Yankees or Red Sox will blink and they will get Hughes or Bucholtz. AND THEN, it still depends on whether Santana will sign — if he won’t, the price goes way down (or we wait until the trade deadline).
Hughes+Melky+a lower-level prospect gets it done. (If Minnesota takes the Lester/Crisp deal, we should start the collusion investigation.)
“Wang’s given up just 11 more hits than innings pitched in his career. Silva has given up close to 200 more hits than innings pitched. Get a clue”
that’s irrelevant….cause of the number of double plays Silva gets.
so, anyone actually want to discuss the actual points in my post?
a little better? and you call yankees fans biased??
I don’t get why you all think the Yankees are so much better than the Twins…
Yankees W/O Santana is about as good as the Twins w/ Santana…You act like the Twins are some crap team that has no chance to win…We had a down year, but we will rebound and be just as good as the Yankees next year if we keep Santana…
Doreen
November 30th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
GreenBeret7
That is a very sexist attitude. Yet sad for you if that has been your experience
_________________________________________-
Calm down, Darleen. My humor button was stolen.
If you think cheapskate pohlad is getting over on Hank, think again. We will play the waiting game, Santana wants us. We will keep the kids.
09–Santana,Joba,Andy,Hughes, Kennedy, Wang, Melky, Cano all ours. We are the Evil Empire!!!!!
chuck, I’m amused that you just decided to agree with me on what it will take to get Santana.
I guess I don’t know my baseball, then. Do you follow the Yankees at all, since you are a Twinsfan “inNY?” Are you familiar with the Joba rules? Nardi Contraras? Dave Eiland?
To blankly state that only 1/3 youngsters will pitch well, without any hard evidence to back up your claim, sounds to me like frustration.
Kennedy looked pretty good in September, Hughes looked great against Cleveland in the playoffs, and Joba’s 0.38 ERA in 2 months of MLB work is nothing to sneeze at.
Are you familiar with the rest of the Yankees farm system?
Sour grapes, my friend. Why your owner is a cheapskate is beyond me..we have to deal with Owen Nutting here in Pittsburgh, who is light years worse.
Draft picks AND Santana in pinstripes in 09…a bad scenario for the Twinkies.
No he was A LOT better in 2007, in 2006 they weren’t even in the same league. Silva was a AAA pitcher in ’06
Twinsfan is correct that Twins shouldn’t take Wong. His $$ are going to go up very quickly and he is not an indoor pitcher.
Jake, no one said anything about Liriano anchoring the staff next year.
twinsfan is the anti-bobcat. bobcat spurred on good discussion, and this “bloke” is preaching idiocy and we are arguing with him.
TwinsFan is really going to be upset in about 4 years when Liriano, Mauer and Morneau are wearing pinstripes.
If Pohlad would spend a little of the welfare money that he syphons off from the team, they could keep their players.
Matt – Buddy. Are you serious? Do you really think that the Twins will be as good as the Yankees next year if they keep Santana? Their offense is a bit suspect to the least. Add to that the division factor where the AL Central has slightly edged out the AL East as the best division. I’m not too sure I would be as confident as you are.
Twins Fan in NY-
They are both groundball pitchers. Of course they both get a lot of double plays. Wang gets a lot of double plays too, because he’s a groundball pitcher. But, as I said Wanh gets A LOT more groundballs than Silva because his sinker is much better than silva’s. The only reason Silva gets more double plays is because he gives up so many freakin hits. He doesn’t get even close to enough double plays to make up for how many more hits he gives up than wang. Sorry, lame argument.
“chuck, I’m amused that you just decided to agree with me on what it will take to get Santana.”
Yeah, too much crap to read in this thread. You don’t need to be so arrogant, but you are right that Wong is a non-starter.
The deal might still get done for Kennedy+Melky+lower prospect, but only if the Twins are certain that they can’t do better from Sox or LAAofAs.
TwinsfaninNY,
We get that the Twins don’t want Wang. In fact, I don’t blame them because I am not sure I want Wang.
Liriano will pitch no more than 75 innings in 2008.
Jake-
Did you honestly just call Santana a clown?…wow
“To blankly state that only 1/3 youngsters will pitch well, without any hard evidence to back up your claim,”
it’s called baseball history. here’s some hard evidence:
take all of the top pitching prospects from BA for the past ten years. then look at their first three major league seasons. see how many had just one excellent, injury free season. (hint: it’ll be far less than 1/3 of them)
that’s reality. the Yankees brass isn’t stupid. they have no intention of having 3 essentially rookie starters this season on opening day. NFW.
Matt,
Don’t be offended. We think we’re better than all the teams.
Evil. We are evil. We will steal Santana right out from under you Yankee haters.
Well, it does give us something to do until the next Bobcat post
Twinsfan: Care to explain to me how salary dumping (the Luis Castrillo trade and not resigning Torii Hunter come to my mind) jives with a team trying to win now?
Silva ERA+ 2007 103
Wang ERA+ 2007 121
Definitely not the same pitcher….
“Joba’s 0.38 ERA in 2 months of MLB work”
sigh. you should look up Jesse Crain’s first “2 months of MLB work”
Matt,
All these money hoarding slobs are clowns in my eyes.
Doesn’t mean I don’t love them.
It’s amazing the cult-like hot stove following Bobcat has garnered in a few short days. I’ll admit I’m hooked. This could be the start of a whole new hot stove terminology … Bobcatical, Bobcatian, Bobcatesque, Bobcatiavellian. Any future signings like the Pavano deal, can’t believe I said that, would surely be Bobcatastrophical! The list could go on and on!!
Phil,
The 2 hostages in NH have been released unharmed. Kinda puts Santanamania in perspective, huh?
SJ44,
God bless ya man. You’ve had to repeat yourself more times than Guiliani’s had to explain girlfriends to wives. Keep your chin up and your sense of humor intact. We appreciate your levelheadedness (if that’s a word) in this Sea of Santanamania.
As for me, it’s Friday and after a long week of work I’m gonna pour me a cold one.
The Yankees raked against the AL central in 2007. They got unlucky with Cleveland in October, but during the season, they had I think 20 wins against AL Central teams?
Sorry, but Minnesota would have to do a helluva lot for me to be convinced they’d be any threat next year.
Blargh:
yes, they gave up on last season (and it made sense to get something for Castillo…who’s on the decline). that wasn’t about this year.
Hunter’s getting way overpaid…and there’s every reason to think that Young can replicate his numbers.
(and due to injury, Hunter’s defense is way on the decline…it’s all reputation now)
Um they are both groudball pitchers, which means double plays, duh. Next arguement.
Drive 4-5
Thanks for the update, that’s great news!
Mike R-
The Minnesota Twins are the Braves of the 90′s…Everyone counts us out…Heck maybe all you Yankee fans can do a statistical break-down of our players, w/e…We win for reasons that most Yankees fans have never even thought of…The AL Central is our toilet…We know all of their weaknesses…LOL ok that last thing isn’t true…the division is ridiculous…But anyways Twins truly have as good of a chance to win as the Yankees…
Really though when you think about it…why should we give the twins anything for Santana? Why not just wait it out?
If Santana really wants us (and he knows we have the $$$$)we are not posers, he has the no-trade and will use it. He is in the drivers seat.
Really? Surely you jest. You don’t want a well above average pitcher who’s pitched over 400 innings the past two years with an ERA+ of 122 on the Yankees? If Wang went to the Twins tomorrow for Santana he’d be their best pitcher.
Seriously some of you guys need to remember in Wang’s other 2 playoff games he pitched 13.2 IP’s and gave up 4 runs. It’s amazing how shortsighted some of the Yankee fans on this blog are.
OK, let’s move on to better discussion. Please respond yes if you think we should all just ignore TwinsfaninNY and move on to better things.
TwinsfaninNY,
On the 1/3 subject, you might be right.
Honestly, how many of you think that Hughes, Kennedy, AND Joba are going to be studs?
Joba seems the likeliest, but what if he blows his arm out next year like Liriano did?
You just don’t know. Of all the Yanks prospects you guys are running off on here, let’s take 10 of them, probably 2 will pan out and be big difference makers on their team.
But this is part of the game, risk and reward.
Who knows, Ian Kennedy may turn out to be the best of the three and Joba might be the worst.
Drive 4-5: Enjoy that cold one.
“that’s irrelevant….cause of the number of double plays Silva gets.”
wow. you are embarrassing yourself. seriously.
Double Plays 2007:
Wang – 34
Silva – 26
2006:
Wang – 36
Silva – 20
so, how again is the difference in the base-runners allowed irrelevant?
when you are done insulting people, do us a favor and learn something about baseball, b/c you sound like an idiot.
sorry, but you started it.
I don’t practice Santana-eria, I ain’t got no crystal ball.
If I had a 125 million dollars, well I spent it all on A-Rod…
Question for folks out there?
Why does Santana himself just say no to any trades, finish the season, and hit free agency?
He will have the ultimate bidding war, and he (or more specifically his agent) know that with several teams competing for him, he WILL get more money then, then he would get now for an extention.
I’m not sure why he would want to sign an extention now with anybody, when he can wait a year and get alot more anyway.
Any idea’s?
YES
Santana will be ours. Black Magic Woman.
Well right about now, I’m Bobcatatonic. I need some news! This is too exhausting otherwise.
And also, proves my lifetime suspicion that people that were not born and raised in New York, will never really be New Yorkers. I mean seriously, Twin Fan – isn’t there a bar down in the West Village you could go have an appletini and read Time Out New York at or something?
YES
Sorry if I’m repeating someone else’s post but I just saw this. I guess Minaya doesn’t hold his prospects as dear as the Yankees. Is it me, or did Omar basically give Milledge away?
NEW YORK (AP) ― Catcher Brian Schneider and outfielder Ryan Church were traded to the New York Mets by the Washington Nationals on Friday in exchange for outfielder Lastings Milledge.
Hmmm- Great stuff in that last post about the DPs.
Blog Rule #1- Don’t mess with SJ44.
Blog Rule #2- Don’t mess with hmmm/Bobcat or anyone else that you want to throw in there. You’ll come up shy every time!
I’m catching up here. Are the Mets out of Santanamania now that they’ve traded Lastings Millege to the Nats?
I don’t agree with what all of TwinsFan is saying…but he is right to say that Torii Hunter is overpaid right now…The Twins could have offered him 5 years at 13 mil and he woulda taken it (he said so himself)…but the twins were hell bent to not give him 5 years, they must not like his durability over that long of a stretch…they did offer him 3 years at 15 mil, but torii wanted 5 years…Liek I said before the Twins have money that they can spend, but they do not shine anyones shoes unless they are dirty…
Only an event of Bobcatian proportions can save us from this fighting.
Guidryball: generally good points. but, you’re overstating MN’s interest in quantity of pitching. they have lots of good pitching prospects in the system or nearly ready. quality interests them far more than quantity. and now with Garza gone they want an opening day starter for Santana. Kennedy’s skillset is way too similar to Slowey’s (both were untouchable in the minors…both are pitcher with command and control with four good pitchers…neither has one great pitch….remember that we had Radke forever…we’re very familiar with this type of pitcher)….for MN’s comfort.
ultimately, I think Buchholtz or Lester trump Kennedy if the Yanks don’t offer Hughes. (yes, the Sox are probably bluffing…but if Hughes isn’t offered, the Twins might just call the Sox on it)
Sonny M…You are correct sir. Lets end all this nonsense and worry, Santa will be ours. He knows it, we know it, Hank knows it, Cash knows it. Have a nice weekend. Oye como va!
Thanks Rebecca….here’s lookin at ya
lol
Matt
We have high passion for our team. With that passion comes high expectations too. If the Yankees ever had a team that had the Cy Young winner, the AL MVP and the batting champ all on it in 1 year and it didn’t win a WS championship, it would be Sportscenter coverage for months and the fans would burn them in effegy.
Sort of like you’re allowed to pick on your brother but you wouldn’t let a stranger do it.
Drive,
The mets were out of the santana sweepstakes from the beginning, unless they were willing to include jose reyes.
Sonny M:
um, cause he risks injury or a bad season. gotta remember the time value of money. a long term contract now is worth far more.
i say ignore twinsfaninny.
Matt seems to be a smarter fan than tfiny
The only team that wanted Lastings is the Nats. THe only way the Mets reinsert themselves into the Santana deal is giving up Reyes. Otherwise Mets fans who think they can even beat the deal the Yankees supposedly already offered are crazy.
jennifer, why give up anyone for santana?
Bigger and better things:
So what about that bullpen?
Wasn’t that supposed to be like, THE concern after Arodmania?
yes, I’m aware that I underrated Wangs stats.
what I should have just said is that like Silva, he wouldn’t be very good in the dome.
ok? now if you can deal with the actual points I made….
rebecca, you are on the right track. Why even talk of santana, we already own him and we gave up nothing.
IF we want to wait till he becomes a free agent we don’t have to.
Johan holds all the cards, he can nix a deal to any team should he choose.
For all the hype about Millege, it doesnt seem like the Mets got much in return. Maybe his immaturity lowed his trade value.
raymagnetic:
um, the idea that Wang would be better than everyone of Liriano or Slowey or Baker or Perkins…especially in that dome, is pretty ignorant.
exactly jennifer, end of story. we own santana. he is ours. the evil empire reigns.
um, cause he risks injury or a bad season. gotta remember the time value of money. a long term contract now is worth far more.
Makes perfect sense, on the other hand, even with a bad season, he could still wind up with the same amount as he would get with an extention.
That said, it is his walk year, if he pitches up to his standard, wow, we’re talking A-Rod lite like money.
Lots of players refuse the extentions, hit the market, and get paid more, the gamble can pay off bigger.
Hoffa,
Yes, we should stop arguing with passive aggressive fans. It’s a fruitless exercise.
Rebecca- About the bullpen…I think that Ross Ohlendorf can be a good option out of the bullpen. His velocity increased during the season and the postseason experience will do him some good. It was a great idea for the Yankees to throw him into the fire down the stretch and for Ohlendorf to get his feet wet. He was usually good at getting ground balls as a starter and hopefully he can show that same tendency as a reliever. He could provide some assistance. Even though he had a rough outing in Game 1, it helps that he was exposed to the atmosphere. He should know what to expect from now on.
Bullpen – there’s not a lot out there, right? I think we’re kind of stuck with what we have (Viz, hopefully, plus Farnsworth, Veras, Ramirez, etc). Can anyone think of some decent RP that could be a possibility?
Hopefully, Ohlendorf, Horne, etc will be able to come up in the second half to see some time. But I’m just drawing a complete blank otherwise.
Oh, Bobcat…
Let’s see…08 rotation Joba, Pettitte, Wang, Hughes, Kennedy.
09…Santana, Joba, Pettitte,Wang, Hughes, Kennedy
I’ll take my chances…
Sonny M: yeah, but they’re usually position players.
if he can get 22MM a year now for six years…why take the risk of injury or a bad season just for the chance of instead getting 25MM a year for five years?
(remember that he gets more money THIS season by signing a new contract now)
There’s nothing we can do. If the Twins choose to do a deal with Boston, and if Santana agrees to negotiate a trade then that’s that. Re-set, move on.
marc where is my evil laugh button? lol
And this clown thinks that all the Twins pitchers are better than Wang. LOL
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....p50/y2008/
top 50 prospects. joba number 5. yanks had 3 in the top 50. pritty pritty pritty good.
Santana is under contract with the Twins…He has no cards, the worst thing that can happen for the Twins is that Santana pitches for us next year…Plus he love this team and everyone in it…he is not going to purposely screw us over, like yankees fans seem to believe…
lol, Jennifer, um try some reading comprehension.
I never said that. learn to read.
Nope, it really isn’t. He’s already better than Baker. Liriano is coming off of an injury so he’s pretty much an unknown quantity at the moment. Slowey and Perkins are unproven as well.
As of now If Wang were to go to Minny he’d be their best pitcher.
Sanchez and Melancon (if they are still on the team) will be in NY by the end of June, if there are no setbacks.
Ooooo. Rated above Stealth, Miller, and Bailey? Wow. They must’ve had a tough time deciding who was 5th and who was 6th.
Matt, Don’t underestimate the power of the almighty dollar.
Something your owner does not part with.
the todd,
is that an allusion to “curb”? if so, awesome.
hey. since this santana stuff is getting pretty repetative i have a question for all you guys out there.
how many of you, honestly. think you have a better arm than johnny damon. now i know alot of people make fun of him, but seriously, if you gave yourself a month to get into shape, do you think you can throw as far as he could? I think I can give him a run for his money.
Matt,
yeah, that NTC is just there for show. And he loves the Twins so much that he turned down their offer of 4/80M. And all that stuff he said after they traded their 2B? Love patter! It’s truly a match made in heaven, the world’s most expensive pitcher and the world’s cheapest team.
Twins fan
If the Twins aren’t interested in what the Yanks have to offer then the deal won’t get done and there are no points to be addressed. Yankees can offer what they are willing to give from what they have. If that doesn’t match up with the Twins needs, they can look elsewhere or keep Santana. The Yankees have the chips, have the revenue and are willing to spend the money. That’s not a combination that many teams have.
Maybe if this was in English I could understand it.
No he doesn’t. It’s a contract extension . He’d get the same 13.5Mil this year and next year when his new contract starts he’d be making more money.
Twinsfan:
I wasn’t contending that the Yankees would be offering garbage quanity in place of Phil Hughes. I was saying Bill Smith may want Dellin Betances and Alan Horne – two prospects with huge stuff – instead of Hughes, if you are considering the fact that Smith is motivated more by getting the best package and not doing his best to quell public relations nightmares. In short, I wasn’t saying the Twins would take DeSalvo & Clippard in Phil’s place, but two VERY good prospects a tick below Hughes. And no matter how deep Minnesota is in terms of young pitching, I think they would always bolster it even if it means overlooking positional players in the short term.
raymagnetic:
no, not in that dome. the point is that you are assuming all of the following:
A. that Liriano isn’t recovered.
B. that Baker doesn’t pitch well.
C. that Slowey doesn’t pitch well.
D. that Perkins doesn’t pitch well.
E. that Bonser doesn’t pitch well.
now I agree that certainly some or even most of those things will be true. but all of them? highly unlikely.
berra08, haha yes it was.
Mel,
Don’t you think Santana wants us over Fenway’s wall?
Do you really think the sawx will give him 6 years 25 mil?
the todd,
You’re kidding, right? Some of us are girls, you know, stuck in the kitchen and all that. lol.
Guidryball:
“And no matter how deep Minnesota is in terms of young pitching, I think they would always bolster it even if it means overlooking positional players in the short term.”
you’re correct that was their strategy. but now Smith’s in charge. and the first thing he does is trade Garza for Young.
Ohlendorf is just one option that I mentioned and fixing the bullpen is a major priority. It’s mainly the Yankees figuring something out. Suppose that Wang, Joba, Andy, (if he comes back) or any other starter leaves after the sixth inning with a lead. Who would you feel most comfortable giving the ball to in the seventh to hold the lead? That’s food for thought and something that Cashman needs to figure out. According to Hank in his interview earlier in the week, rectifying the bullpen is one of Cashman’s main projects.
GreenBeret7
Sorry – I sounded harsher than I meant to be. Friends?
raymagnetic:
incorrect…some of that money would be upfront.
While we’re here…
To Matt and Twinsfan: Your thoughts on a potential Joe Nathan trade to someone in the NL Central?
todd, I know I could. I’m one of those female athletes GB was talking about before. He literally cannot even hit the cut anymore.
He! Fail english!? That’s unpossible!
Twinsfan-
Only a contender would trade for Santana, and contenders A) already have good pitching, and B) aren’t going to trade away their young studs becuase they’re going to need them.
Especially recently, the trading deadline is for salary dumps and rentals. 2007 would’ve been the year to make a deadline trade. This year, no way.
Oh Bobcat, Oh Bobcat, where art thou Bobcat?
The twins should take clippard, desalvo and we’ll throw in karstens. Take it or leave it. It might be better than the 2 draft picks they get in 09.
pat:
I think when push comes to shove, the Yankees will trade Hughes. their problem is that Lester or Buchholtz project higher than Kennedy…and we know that the Sox will at least be willing to give up Lester.
the Yankees can’t afford to let Santana to go to the Sox. not that cheaply anyway.
According to Bustey Olney:
• The Yankees are close to finishing a deal with veteran Mark Loretta, reports Troy Renck. The Yankees talked to Loretta last offseason, and he makes a lot of sense for New York, because he can play every infield position. And Loretta, a right-handed hitter, would give some balance to a roster that is heavily left-handed.
So where does Wilson Betemin fit in?
marc:
I assume you’re joking.
MN does have one piece of leverage:
any trade offer they get now has to be compared to having most of a season of Santana next year plus whatever they can get for him from any of ten different teams next July.
Lets see a team in win now mode.
1. Trade away second baseman check
2. Trade away cy young winning pitcher (in works)
3. Trade away closer (in works)
Yeah that sounds like a team in win now mode.
I know this is kind of pointless but here goes. Chien Ming Wang in that dome, I know it’s going to be hard for you to believe this, but he’s pitched 2 Games there, 14IP’s and given up 12 hits and 5 runs. Wang has a 2.57 ERA in the Metrodome. It’s a small sample I know, but it goes to show he can pitch there.
As for your other “points”
A.- You can’t assume Liriano is healthy and the same pitcher he was until he proves it.
B. Wang has already proven he’s a much better pitcher than Baker. Look at their stats.
C. Slowey – Unproven
D. Perkins – Unproven
E. Bonser – Wang has MUCH better numbers than him. It’s not even close.
What you twins fans fail to understand is this. Santana is going nowhere but the Yanks. It is where he wants to play with his buddy Bobby Abreu. All of the trade talk is nonsense. It’s only a deal if Carlos says so. Deal or no deal, sucker.
jennifer, also
- trade away incredibly good center fielder – check.
Defintely a “win now” kind of team.
Doreen
November 30th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
GreenBeret7
Sorry – I sounded harsher than I meant to be. Friends?
______________________________________________
Of course. I meant nothing by it, and didn’t take what you said in any way. If I had figured out the smiley code earlier, I would have used on that somewhat, ill-timed joke.
The Todd,
I once hit the backstop on the fly from the left field fence (280 feet) in a softball game, so yeah I know I can throw better than Damon, and I’m 50 friggin years old!
Adam:
at any trade deadline there are about ten teams in contention. all of them can use more pitching. (you can never have too much.) all of them will trade top prospects for a top stud pitcher at that point. even if just for a rental and a shot at the series.
the point is, MN doesn’t have to take prospects now…they can get them later. they want a stud starter…either a position player or a pitcher. the Yankees don’t have the first to trade so it’ll have to be the second.
marc,
No, I’m a member of the hold ‘em or fold ‘em club. No Joba, Hughes, or Cano. If he goes, he goes. I only want guys who want to play here. No thank you to Percival (who the hell is he?) and the countless other guys who didn’t want to wear pinstripes. Arrogant fan? Hell, yeah. But there’s a reason why they’re the all time best team in all of sports. So I’m not going to fret over the Sox. I’m not obsessed with them.
drive 4-5,
not too good for wilson, not too good.
Question for folks out there?
Why does Santana himself just say no to any trades, finish the season, and hit free agency?
Because he wants to play for a winner next year.
Because he wants his big contract sooner rather than later.
Because waiting an additional year for the big contract adds risk that he gets injured during the interim or has a bad season.
raymagnetic:
Baker and Bonser are still in the “unproven” category. my point was that you are assuming that they all will suck and Liriano won’t be ready. one of them won’t suck. and Liriano is pitching winter ball.
TWINSFAN:
I don’t think Lester necessarily projects higher than Kennedy. That is an extremely debatable notion. Lester has never impressed me very much, especially when the fastball which was rumored to be capable of sitting in the mid-90s was often times sitting in the high 80s. And this was last year pre-cancer diagnosis. Understood he’s adapted and thrown a cutter much more, but he is a back of the rotation starter with the possibility of becoming a solid #3. I think Kennedy would be in the same exact category. That said, you keep saying Buchholz > Kennedy in a Boston trade.. Who is it exactly who said Boston would ever be willing to part with Buchholz.. because there’s no way they would. So take the whole Buchholz idea out of your argument means the Boston vs Yankees deals would include Lester vs. Kennedy.. making them essentially even.
Mel,
Don’t you feel now that Santana is coming here in 09? What with the no trade and all that.
Todd, it’s ridiculous how bad Damon’s arm is. He is throwing a baseball, which weighs just a few ounces. It is meant to be thrown and hit long distances. But it looks like he’s thowing a bowling ball. I literally cringe whenever a runner gets on first base. Unless Wang’s pitching. Then, I get ready for a sweet double play.
The problem with looking at Wang’s numbers in the Metrodome is that he was facing Minnesota’s anemic lineup.
rb15:
um, they didn’t trade away their free-swinging centerfielder who had lost his speed and was on the downside of his career and couldn’t field anymore. instead, that centerfielder signed a massively overpriced contract.
jennifer: um, Castillo is on the downside of his career. that was called hoodwinking the Mets.
nettles vs lee ( i love it)
how about him having a GREAT walk year like most pro’s do with the money on the line, see Arod, and upping 09s bounty?
marc,
If he’s not here in ’08, I feel we have the $edge$ for ’09. I’m trying not to get into a cyber-tussle with the chicken littles who are fretting that he’ll go to the Sox in a trade/extension. If does that means he’s comfortable going there and didn’t insist on coming to New York.
And what’s with the passive-aggressive Minnies saying that any 1 of 10 teams can have him at the trade deadline? Where did the NTC disappear to?
Pavano and Igawa for Santana. Straight up … two arms for the price of one.
OK OK OK … I admit I’m winding down at work, just waiting for happy hour to start.
Sadly, that’s about an even trade dollar-wise for the first year. ONLY dollar-wise … fugheddabout the value or performance in return per buck being in completely different universes. Mind-boggling, right? Throw in the posting fee for Kei-san and we actually have ourselves bargain.
Percival to the Rays being a done deal could help them a lot towards getting out of the basement. I didn’t know he had a 1.80 ERA with the Cards this year. How many games did the Rays pen just hand over to Boston down the stretch this year?
It’s embarrassing how the same pen could shut our bats down around the same point in the season.
So many of NY’s bats can’t possibly struggle at once like they did half of last year. I’m looking forward to ’08. A lot. Except when Giambi plays 1B or when Kei gets the call.
Guidryball: maybe so…though Lester strikes me as having better stuff (and worse command) than Kennedy…
last published rumor I read said that the Sox had told the Twins to take their pick among Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholtz…but that they could only have one of them.
Regarding Pettitte, and possibly this has been addressed previously, forgive me if it has, but do you guys believe the Mitchell Report is factoring in to his potential retirement? Do you think there’s a chance his name is on it? And Pettitte, possibly anticipating this, wants to just avoid all that would come along with that.
I also think that Lester has been overrated. His minor league numbers were never that impressive and from what I have seen he hasn’t shown any flashes of dominance in the majors. He has some extra value becaue he is a lefty, but I see his ceiling as Ted Lilly.
rb how could I forget, but they just let him walk.
Lets see a team in win now mode.
1. Trade away second baseman check
2. Trade away cy young winning pitcher (in works)
3. Trade away closer (in works)
4. Let gold glove cf walk check
I would love to see the Twins get JJ Hardy, Felix Pie, Hunter Pence or Scott Rolen for Nathan…
I could 100% throw harder than Damon…I don’t even think it’d be close…
Twins fan
Whether Hughes is available is TBD. Maybe yes, maybe no.
The Yanks might not like Santana to go to the Sox but worse things have happened. The question for me is will the Sox offer Santana what he’s looking for in order to waive the no trade. The Sox let the A-Rod deal fall through 4 years ago over less than a million dollars a year. The Sox have a history of trying to cut below market rate deals. If Santana’s agent is doing his job, he isn’t going to let him sign a below market rate contract this time.
last published rumor I read said that the Sox had told the Twins to take their pick among Ellsbury, Lester and Buchholtz…but that they could only have one of them.
LOL. They would take Buchholz in a second.
“And what’s with the passive-aggressive Minnies saying that any 1 of 10 teams can have him at the trade deadline? Where did the NTC disappear to?”
Mel, I don’t think he’d turn down a two month rental to a WS-contending team in July.
N v. L
it’s all over the Boston media today. whether true or not, I don’t know. word is that the Twins are demanding two of the three.
twins fan, mind speaking english?
excuse me but doesnt your boy have a no trade? you will lose him for 2 draft picks. 2. take clippard and karstens and a bag of balls.
But your team is in win now mode, so they should be competing for the ws. SO yeah he’d turn it down.
Twinsfan;
You have to count out any team in contention that is a “small market”… say the Reds are in contention next year, do you think they’re giving up their best young players for a 2 month rental. They can’t afford to. What if they don’t make the playoffs and Santana leaves, then what.
They aren’t getting Hughes then form the Yanks, cuz he’ll either be injured, too valuable to trade, or too crappy to trade. Same with the other prospects.
You’ll have better luck trading Nathan at the dealine.
And do you think Santana is going to approve a trade to the teams in marginal contention?
When was the last CY Young type pitcher dealt at the deadline on their walk year anyway? I can’t think of a one, not lately at least.
I don’t under estimate the “almighty dollar”…I do know that Santana is one of THE most humble persons on the face of the earth…I think I should prolly type that again for effect…Johan Santana is one of the more humble athletes or even persons I have ever seen…I do realize this is a business, but athlete want to be happy, that is their main goal…That is why you see KG, Torii Hunter, Santana and all these players speak so highly of the organizations… Minnesota sports BREEDS loyalty…You guys don’t know, but there is a thing that I like to call “the Minnesota nice effect”…It is a state of being that revolves around Class, and basically being a good all-around person…
God that shit should be published
Jennifer:
Torri is not a great fielder anymore. not since his injury. he lost a bunch of steps. that’s one of those things that everyone in MN (and the MN media) knows…but it’s not in the national press yet.
TwinsFan,
Then that may be the best recourse for Minnesota. Wait until the trade deadline and get some good players, Santana goes to a WS contender, and the contender gets a front line pitcher. Works for all involved.
Adam:
I agree that it wouldn’t be a team in marginal contention.
mel, that’s their Plan B if they don’t get offered enough now.
I don’t under estimate the “almighty dollar”…I do know that Santana is one of THE most humble persons on the face of the earth…I think I should prolly type that again for effect…Johan Santana is one of the more humble athletes or even persons I have ever seen…I do realize this is a business, but athlete want to be happy, that is their main goal…That is why you see KG, Torii Hunter, Santana and all these players speak so highly of the organizations… Minnesota sports BREEDS loyalty…You guys don’t know, but there is a thing that I like to call “the Minnesota nice effect”…It is a state of being that revolves around Class, and basically being a good all-around person…
~Adam- Randy Johnson was traded to the Astros in his walk year for a two month rental for Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen. Just throwing it out there.
Twinsfan-
Also, what if Santana gets injured? you get nothing. what if he has a bad start, what little value he has on the trade market now could be gone in a flash if he has a poor first half.
His max value is now.
TF – um, they didn’t so much lift a pinky finger to *keep* their center fielder, did they? Sour grapes, friend? Was he your favorite player? I bet you have his jersey.
Does it bother you that your team’s owner is rich beyond belief, but apparently doesn’t care about retaining his fan-favorite free agents? I know it would bother me, but luckily, the good lord made me a Yankees fan.
This deal won’t get done this weekend. Text messaging and cellphones are great but face-to-face bargaining has more impact.
Cashman will head to Nashville Saturday and as always, very prepared. Hank Steinbrenner will leave Tampa early next to give the OK and all the support his GM needs.
rodg
did the renting team also have to fork over 150M+ luxo tax considerations?
rodg12- those were very different economic times too. And that didn’t exaclty work out for the Astros. It’s one of the worst trades in MLB history.
mel, sanatna knows where the $$$ are. in da bronx baby.
saux will never pay the big bucks, that’s why johnny d split. he is ours now or later. igawa and pavano or nuthin twinkies, says hank.
He is richer than GS by billions I believe.
Marc,
let’s say the Reds have a .600 winning percentage next July. making them a favorite to make the Series.
Santana’s not going to turn down a trade to them for a shot at Series glory. or maybe it’ll be the Mets, or maybe it’ll be the Dodgers, or the Angels, or the Sox, or the Yankees…heck, if the Twins are out of contention they could even rent him out in the division.
the point is, someone will offer good prospects (I didn’t say, starters, but prospects). so, for the Twins to trade Santana now, they need more than prospects. simple.
Bonser has started 48 games in the Majors with an ERA+92. He hasn’t even been average in his first 48 starts and he’s only 1 year younger than Wang. I think it’s safe to say he’s not better than Wang.
Scott Baker has 49 Starts with an ERA+93. I think it’s safe to say that he has also proven he’s not better than Wang.
Why do you assume that Liriano will come back and be the same pitcher he once was? Until he pitches ML games and shows he still has it he is an unknown quantity. I don’t see how you can dispute that.
TwinsfaninNY
November 30th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
rb15:
um, they didn’t trade away their free-swinging centerfielder who had lost his speed and was on the downside of his career and couldn’t field anymore. instead, that centerfielder signed a massively overpriced contract.
jennifer: um, Castillo is on the downside of his career. that was called hoodwinking the Mets.
——————————————
You sure did hood-wink ‘em. You chisled the Mets out of a 23 year old outfielder with minimal power and average spped and a 24 year old catcher with a career minor league batting average of .214. Ones in A ball and the other is in AA. What a steal.
i’d say the RJ precedent says it all.
GB7:
um, it’s called something for nothing (Castillo)
but then overvaluing aging players is something that NY teams like to do.
(while continuously bashing by far the best player in baseball…)
Lester vs Kennedy is a wash at best for the Redsox. Also you can not discount the health concerns with Lester. Cancer is alway a threat to return. I hope that is doesn’t for such a young kid, but there is always a chance. Kennedy has as much upside as Lester and is a year younger.
Twinsfan
RJ didn’t get a 150M extension as a part of the trade, and that’s what Santana wants and will use his NTC to get or something like it. The Twins aren’t gonna get equal value.
Phil – obviously No. Unit left after the season and signed with the DBacks. He did pitch the Astros to the playoffs that year though (10-1 with a 1.28 E.R.A). I also gotta point out that this went down in history as one of the 10 worst deadline deals from the Astros perspective since they got bounced in the first round, didn’t keep Unit and gave up a ton of talent. Therefore, I don’t know if some other team would be willing to fork over that package of talent for a two month rental again based on the way it worked out for the Astros.
“Why do you assume that Liriano will come back and be the same pitcher he once was? Until he pitches ML games and shows he still has it he is an unknown quantity. I don’t see how you can dispute that.”
I don’t. 50-50.
all that I’m saying is that one of Liriano, Perkins, Slowey, Blackburn or Baker or Bonser will be better than Wang pitching for the Twins in that dome. now which one it will be? that I don’t know.
I’d take Liriano over Wang in a straight up trade right now. Liriano is going to be better than Santana.
Who is bashing Alex?
twins fan,
santana could be a mercenery in july for a few months then leave, so what? he’ll still go where the $$$ is in 09.
Phil:
that’s what he’s demanding for a trade now.
a two month rental to win the Series is an entirely different matter.
I don’t get why you people have such a difficult time comprehending that.
Adam-
I agree Santana’s max value is now. That is why Yankees fan are going to be disappointed when they find out his final price…
marc, I agree that he could very well end up on the Yankees in that situation.
but you still miss out on having him in 08.
Hell yea Marc. I like your style kid.
I’m all for revisiting this at the trade deadline, but I don’t think the Twins are.
feddd….Liriano had that kind of stuff, yes.
whether he will again? who knows.
Twinsfan-
you just said they want a stud pitcher and stud position player. the best odds of getting that are now.
or if Isiah Thomas is a baseball GM at the deadline lol.
And if the Reds are .600, I’lll assume they have some good players there, a small market team like that won’t trade two studs for one. The big market teams won’t trade unless they sign him to an extension and if that’s the case, your prospect ransom will be low.
Doesn’t make sense. If you’re selling at the deadline in this day in age, you’re selling low or for payroll relief.
Joe Nathan is your deadline chip. See if you’re any good with all your new players and Nathan closing. If not, sell him off.
For max value, Santana is now. And, you said so yourself, the want max value for him.
From the seems odd department:
Nobody mentions A-Rod and the time it’s been taking to hammer out the details of his contract.
Matt: “I could throw 100% harder than Damon”
That’s actually funny because it’s probably true. He looks like he throws with his left arm like I throw with my left arm … but he’s a lefty & I’m a righty!
The Yanks probably gave Mariano as much $$ as they did because they couldn’t bluff him by saying they were planning on converting Damon into a closer.
Damon seems like the kind of team guy who’d be willing to play anywhere if the team needed him to. But I think even he knows he’d become a sports blooper highlight reel legend.
Carlos Silva: Career ERA+ 102
(the)Wanger: Career ERA+ 119
Dude in Minn. Get a grip!
TwinsfaninNY
November 30th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
GB7:
um, it’s called something for nothing (Castillo)
______________________________________________________
Looks a lot like it’s closer to something for nothing to me.
twins fan
yeah, so what?
Matt-
Yankees fans will get over losing Hughes by Christmas, and if not, we’ll be over it by the time Pitchers and catchers report.
Now, after I’ve stated the facts and the past precedent of the Unit trade, here’s my opinion. Teams don’t operate the same way they did in ’98. Everyone saw the bath Houston took in that deal by giving up so much and not winning the world series that everyone is very reluctant to make the same mistake. The BEST way for the Twins to maximize the return for Santana is to deal him this offseason.
Keith-
MO and AROD are done, they won’t officially sin them til after the Rule 5 draft so that we can protect more players that way.
Well the only one who has proven he can be better than Wang is Liriano and right now he has to prove it again that he’s healthy and he’s the same pitcher.
You keep talking about that Dome but Wang has excellent numbers there in 2 starts, how do you know it will not continue?
So…why are you guys feeding the troll?
Marc and Twins fan,
Getting Santana in free agency actually helps the Yankees because all it’s going to cost his cold hard cash. The blue chips go back in the vault (uh, farm) for another day.
Adam:
“you just said they want a stud pitcher and stud position player. the best odds of getting that are now.”
absolutely correct. that’s what I said. and they might just have to settle for one of those two.
but people here seem to think that prospects will get it done now. I don’t think so. if that’s all that’s offered, then they’ll take their chances on having Santana for 08 and take the prospects at the deadline instead.
the point is, for a team to land Santana now, they have to make a better offer than what the twins can get in July 08.
if we keep hughes and kennedy to go with joba andy wang and add santana in 09 i like my chances for the future, how’s yours lookin?
Good ol’ fashioned hardball.
Aint nothign wrong with that, Marc.
Wang is much better than Silva. The main difference is GB rate. Wang gets a ton more groundball outs than Silva does.
I mean, whatever, Rich. If the Twins wanted to put a winning team on the field, they would, and Santana would have signed an extension a long time ago. Their owner is cheap, and that’s the end of it.
If they had been on the ball enough to trade Hunter, seeing as the coup he pulled off on the FA market, they probably could have gotten something in return. Now all they get are some of those unpredictable, probably-useless draft picks everyone’s all having hissy fits about today.
As if Johan Santana is clueless as to the Twins’ long-term plan? I think it’s very telling that he’s even getting this close to free agency. He’s getting out, and he’s taking the opportunity to make some money at the same time.
Meanwhile, I live in Boston, and I’ve seen nothing even tangentially related to any rumor of the Sox offering up one of Ellsbury/Buckholz.
So anyway, where were we? Talking about the bullpen and Johnny’s arm?
You know a deal to the Yankees is close when the Twins fans come on a Yankee board and start whining.
raymagnetic:
1. his two starts were against the Twins.
2. Perkins, Slowey and Blackburn all have upsides higher than Wang…now which one will actually come through…I don’t know.
but figure that there’s a 50% chance that Liriano is ready. then just figure there’s a 25% chance for each of the other three of being better in 08. one of them is going to come through
LOL!
Keith
November 30th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
From the seems odd department:
Nobody mentions A-Rod and the time it’s been taking to hammer out the details of his contract.
_____________________________________________________
The contract is done. It’ll be announced after the Rule 5 draft, or, when NYY clears some players off of the 40 man roster. After the Santana trade that won’t include Cano and Hughes.
Keith It is the Yankees taking their time to announce deals. Jorge was just announced yesterday yet the deal was done weeks ago. Mo is yet to be announced, same as Alex. They are likely figuring out who to bump off of the 40 man, or are looking to do it when gms are too busy to see who got dumped so they can pass thru waviers. This has nothing to do with Alex.
twins fan
the point you fail to recognize is that your ace can turn down any deal.
therefore you might want to reconsider karstens.
marc
November 30th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
“mel, sanatna knows where the $$$ are. in da bronx baby.
saux will never pay the big bucks, that’s why johnny d split. he is ours now or later. igawa and pavano or nuthin twinkies, says hank.”
Tell me Marc….do you really think that a team that was willing to pay over 50 million dollars just to talk to a pitcher about a contract won’t put out the big bucks for Santana? You are in denial big time!
Pittsburgh,
If, by the grace of God, we actually get Santana, the Boston tykes will be here talking up the kids we gave up and hammering Santana and his “poor finish and league-high homeruns”.
i’ll get over hughes’ departure when i see santana have 10 Ks on opening day without even breaking a sweat
If the Twins keep Santana and then let him walk after 08, all they get are the draft picks. Any deal they make now or at the trade deadline has to be better than those picks, otherwise they keep him.
At the trade deadline, would any team justify giving up a first and supplemental draft pick worth of value for a half season of Santana? Seems like a lot to give up. They would likely only do the deal if they can sign Santana long term. The Twins will be in the same position at the deadline as they are now.
But there is also the risk that Santana gets injured or has a bad season, so they might not get as much for him at the deadline. To maximize his value, they have to trade him now.
The Santana deal will not get done this weekend. Text messaging and cell phones are great but face-to-face bargaining has far more impact. You can’t stall by saying you have another message forthcoming. Brian Cashman’s able assistant (Jean Afterman) will handle other details while Brian is down and dirty with Santana and bullpen fixes.
As always, Brian will be prepared.
Hank Steinbrenner will arrive from Tampa early next week to give approvals and lend support to his GM.
Yes his starts were against the Twins, but they were in that DOME right?
Are you an oddsmaker? I’d like to know how you are coming up with your percentages on who will be good and who won’t.
Omar minaya just said on the radio that the mets are going to play Ryan Church as their everyday right fielder.
Everyday rightfielder.
What are they doing over there? Its mystifying. Is this seriously the same guy who built the expos?
ray,
You’re absolutely correct about the Sox giving up the money, but can they give up Ellsbury or Stealth?
And even if Boston gets Santana, not all of us are shaking in our boots (with the fur).
mel
November 30th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Pittsburgh,
If, by the grace of God, we actually get Santana, the Boston tykes will be here talking up the kids we gave up and hammering Santana and his “poor finish and league-high homerunsâ€.
________________________________________________
That and trying to buy WS titles while ruining baseball.
Adam-
This is what I think the deal should be:
Robinson Cano, Ian Kenedy, Melky, and Wilson Betemit
I am 100% confident that with a year of seeing Johan Santana pitching, you would not care that you gave up that much…Boston fans were crushed when they trade Al Jefferson for KG, but now I don’t think they could care less after seeing what KG brings…The same will happen with Santana for whoever gets him…
Didn’t Bobcat say that the Twins were going to trade Nathan before they trade Santana?…If we’re believing Bobcat then we should not expect a Tans deal anytime soon…
zzzzz
zzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
BOOOOOOOORRIIINNGGG!!!
Ryan Church is an above average hitter. Get off his back already.
ray,
spoken like a true saux apologist. puhleez, tell me about damon, clemens, boggs,nixon, millar,ruth…
N v. Lee:
you’re partially right.
A. look at the history of deadline trades. Teams will trade a lot of talent to have a shot at the series. you’re underestimating how much someone will give up…especially someone really hungry (i.e. not the Yankees).
B. yes, the Twins will trade Santana now if they can get more for him now than would at the deadline. they will trade him at the deadline if they can get more than two picks worth for him.
C. so, my simple point is, to get Santana now, you will have to give up more than what they can get for him at the deadline.
CB, just say thanks that the good lord did not make Minaya the Yankees GM.
Heyman has updated:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Sweet mama jamma. Why are we still on the Twins fan?
marc, don’t be absurd.
“If the Twins can’t get Hughes from the Yankees or Ellsbury or Buchholz from Boston, they may hold onto Santana for now.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
to jake’s point: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
boston will not get santana because they are tight with the buck. Santana will go to “The Evil Empire.” We get what we want.
Ryan Church is an above average player but is not an everyday player. That wasn’t even his role on an awful Nats team. He’s a fine player but the mets are about to take him and put him in a situation that’s setting him up to fail.
How happy are mets fans going to be with him as their everyday rightfielder? Never mind that they gave up milledge for him?
You’re right Marc…the Yankees are willing to put out the bucks. You all paid Clemens over 18 million this last year. How did that work for you?
As usual, remember that what you read, is what you’re allowed to read
And I expect a nice catch for the Twins from the NL Central
And Minaya’s crazy
Bobcat: Sanity Now, Please!
twins fan,
last chance.
karstens and clippard + desalvo.
you won’t get more.
carlos santana holds the cards.
oye como va. black magic woman.
Twinsfan-
Welcome to the world of high stakes trading with Brian Cashman and the Yankees.
The Twins are holding:
A 29 yo Cy pitcher with a full no trade, before his walk year, in a pitchers free agent market…he’s almost too valuable at this point. He’s too expensive because he’s a pitcher.
Yankees know they have stud pitching prospects all over their system right now. we’ve been drafting them in high rounds and using our financial strength to sign them when other teams are afraid to. They know they can offerr you high quality and quantity in pitching prospects… but not our best.
Yankees know we’re the Twins best bet to get max value, and get an actual trade done.
So the Twins try to use the Red Sox as leverage. Like no one’s tried that before (Boras). Cashman’s not going to blink, if anything he might lower his offer.
Your best deal is going to be inthe quality volume of pitching prospects the Yanks can offer… Kennedy, Horne, Betances. If you get Hughes, that’s all your getting and the Twins don’t like only Hughes cuz he had an injury last year.
My point is, your best trade will be 1 blu chip, or quality volume, but not blue chip quality and volume.
Cashman wasn’t born yesterday.
raymagnetic,
i’m with you. minaya is a good baseball guy and a good talent evaluator but this situation is getting bad there.
this is also why the idea that anyone could be the yankee gm and excel because of the steinbrenner’s financial investment in winning is just not accurate.
Once that new stadium opens forget it. As long as the yankees keep following this player scouting and development strategy they are going to be frightening.
They better resign cash and not much this up again with the NY vs. Tampa nonesense.
A full year of Ryan Church in RF is better than a full year of Shawn Green in RF.
Church had almost 500 ABs last year. What part-time or platoon player gets that many at-bats?
Ray, Ray, Ray, play nicely!
Keith Law quote on the Mets trade from ESPN insider….
“The only way this deal doesn’t turn out to be a disaster for the Mets — second in this decade only to the Victor Zambrano-Scott Kazmir deal — is if Milledge doesn’t pan out as a hitter, and the smart money is that he will. This is a heist for Washington, and a serious mismanagement of assets for the Mets. “
ray,
You are the evil empire (lower case).
You discard your icons. No heart.
You threw Clemens away.
You threw Boggs away.
You threw the Babe away.
Oh great, we have a Twin fan and Met fan here. It’s good to see everyone loves to know what Yankee fans think.
Okay Mel…….I promise to behave myself.
I love how folks think Bobcat has inside info just cause he reads more baseball media than you do.
(hints: the Garza/Young trade was first discussed in the press over a month ago…a Nathan trade has been discussed for weeks (the Brewers weren’t interested)….
but he posts stuff that he read elsewhere here and you think he has inside info!
CB,
If the Yankees are smart they will re-sign Cashman as soon as he’s willing to renegotiate. I would hate for another GM to come to NY and start trading away prospects like playing cards.
Matt-
Bobcat said it depended on what they got in the 1st trade. Twins got a nice little deal there and they should think they can compete next year. Especially if they get another pitcher for Santana. They’ll evaluae at the deadline for Nathan probably.
Bullpen arms are better suited for the deadline anyway, cuz either you have a bullpen or not. And you can remain in contention for awhile without a bullpen, but you can’t win it all. Nathan would be a HUGE difference maker for a lot of teams then.
good, well i’m glad i’m not the only one who thinks they can throw better than damon. i had this conversation the other night with my drunk friends, but i’m not sure if it was just drunk talk or not.
treg,
church had 470 at bats this season. minaya himself just said that church has not been given the chance to be an everyday player.
i agree with you that church is better than green. but again – the mets fans hated green and thought he was a waste as a corner outfielder.
remember last off season when minaya gave away brian banninster and heath bell for nothing?
If milledge has a good season its going to be ugly at shea. It wouldn’t surprise me if milledge had a good season next year as a 23 year old.
ray,
LOL. You’re the perfect guest. Maybe the other guests here today can model your behavior.
funny, Heymann thinks the same way I do.
Even more from Law…..
“The Mets get … nothing, or close to it. Schneider will earn $10.3 million over the next two years to sit behind the plate when the rules call for it, and to make 300-odd outs at the plate while hitting .230/.320/.330 or thereabouts. He is the definition of replacement level — his offensive production was roughly as valuable as what Guillermo Quiroz did in eleven plate appearances for Texas last year — and paying him $10 million is bad enough. Giving up something of value to acquire that contract is horrible. It would be better to pay Johnny Estrada $3-4 million to be bad for one year than Schneider over $10 million to be worse for two years.
There’s a small silver lining for the Mets in the acquisition of Ryan Church, a capable platoon bat in left or right field if you have a right-handed caddy for him. Unlike Schneider, he has value on a big league roster, but even swapping Milledge straight-up for Church wouldn’t make sense because of Church’s struggles against lefties, his long history of minor injuries, his age and his expense as a super-two player this winter.”
“marc, I agree that he could very well end up on the Yankees in that situation.
but you still miss out on having him in 08.”
So you think the Yankees would trade Hughes just to bring Santana in 1 year early?
How many people here post on other teams blogs? Am I the only one who doesn’t care what other teams do?
I don’t either pat.
STOP RIGHT NOW CANO IS GOING NOWHERE
The Loretta deal simply highlights the fact that Cashman is simply filling the holes they have in the lineup.
It could mean Wilson Betemit is now in the deal to replace Bartlett.
or The Twins simply want a Richie Sexson bat without paying the 15 million dollars and are now looking @ Shelley Duncan to be their DH.
Subtracting Morneau and Mauer’s occasional DH at bats, the Twins DH slot posted .258 6HR 52 RBI in 450 abs.
Even the worst Shelley Duncanstein critic would agree he can match that easy. Shelley costs nothing right now and if given 450 abs why is it unreasonable to think he can’t hit .265 and go for 20-30 long?
Remember Minnesota wants cheap, when Cano hits arbitration in 2 seasons he will be getting market price no? I would think Robbie will be in the top 3 in MLB at that position thus turning him into a high price tag. Won’t they have enough headaches when it comes to the M&M boys hitting free agency?
any RobertFeline sightings yet?
_____________________________________________________________
WOW — i didn’t think of that, I feel much better that the narrow tunnel visioned reports of who is in play for Johann is not the end all be all and the package could change enough so it can get done. The less we hear from Cash and Hank the better it must be. Because all these leaks of Boston’s “upperhand” and the Twins thinking of pulling out and keeping JS until the deadline and the NTC expand might be a smokescreen.
I agree that this wasn’t a smart trade for the Mets. But Ryan Church is a lot better than most Mets fans think he is. That’s all I’m trying to say here.
And Church had 470 ABs and 49 walks, which means at least 520 plate appearances. That is not part-time.
zzzzz
You are very kind Mel! Your Lakers handled Denver quite easily last night and Jackson gets an extension on his contract. It seems like they are getting into a groove.
Pat, I care what the Twins get for Santana.
and beyond that, I’m a baseball fan in general..
Omar Minaya should be fired. His head must be full of rocks when he made that for Church and some bum at catcher.
pat,
Don’t go to other teams blogs. Too much foul language and obsessive “Da Yankees Suck” type of talk.
And I agree with you about caring about what other teams do.
Face it people, Bobcat has abandoned us.
Never in my life have I felt like an illegitimate child than I do right now.
Hopefully he’ll send money.
And Church had the 5th most ABs on the Nationals last year. He’s a full-time player.
On a completely unrelated to baseball note:
Awww, Evel Knievel died
RIP
Lakers suck.
LOL-
mets will trade Mileadge for nothing, but they won’t trade Jose (0-for-September) for Santana!!!!????
Idiots. Manaya should be fired. Who does he think he’s running, The Knicks?
Master Wangkee:
I think they will trade Hughes to ensure that Santana is not on the Sox for the next six years.
If Shelley Duncan and Wilson Betemit would only be in the deal as throw-ins. The Twins want 4 top young players in this deal.
Yes, treg, Church played full-time last year but he should not have. He’s terrible against lefties and should be platooned with in those situations.
Church is a fine player. He has value.
Still a dumb trade.
TF, if you could use proper English in your posts, we would find it easier to understand you. Who is this Heymann? Why didn’t you start your post with a capital letter? And, which way do you think? Left?
I think that what you meant to post was:
“I find it interesting and slightly amusing that Heyman thinks the same as me.”
To which I will say:
Heyman is a maroon. That’s New York for “has no idea which way is up, let alone what the Red Sox have in fact offered Minnesota.”
I’m going home now, guys. I think I need to make this a Santana-free night. Happy Friday, and Go Yankees!
raymagnetic,
I would really like Hank to come in after all of the player moves are done and give Cash a four year extension before the season starts. There is absolutely no way they should let him twist in the wind (yes they did it to torre, posada, rivera, etc – but I didn’t like that either). I’d like him to get four years so that way Girardi and Cash don’t have their contracts up the same year. I don’t think Cash will get it but that’s what I’d like to see.
The yankees are so unbelievably fortunate that Cashman was able to take over control of the organization when he did. One of Cashman’s real strengths is that he learns from mistakes. With the Vazques, Panavo, Wright disaster he changed what he was doing.
Perhaps most importantly cashman saw very early on what the impact of revenue sharing would be on the free agent market, especially for pitchers. He saw guys were going to get locked up into long term contracts by even smaller market teams.
If the yankees hadn’t started their internal development in 2004 there’s no way they could compete for a santana. I’d guess they would be in a worse position in the mets – lots of veterans, no pitching and also no reyes/ wright.
I will laugh so hard of Lastings hits over .300 while they have a catcher batting .230.
when all is said and done, I think that the trade will be Hughes/Cabrera/prospect.
Twins don’t have the leverage to get Hughes.
rodg 12,
I read law as well – I absolutely loved that line:
“The mets get… nothing…”
that was great. he actually used ellipses followed by nothing.
ray,
They were going good at 7-3. Then they took a mini-slide. The difference is that Bynum was part of the Bench Mob so the chemistry changed when Bynum started because of Kwame’s injury (who knew he’d be helpful?). They also traded Cookie and Evans so the complexion of the bench changed. I hope they’re back on track because a 27 point win over a QUALITY team is nice. Not that your C’s didn’t impress with a win over a quality team last night. lol.
Curtis Granderson hit .160/.225/.269 with a sub-.500 OPS against lefties last year. Just because you suck against one side doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be a full-time player.
The Twins better not get Hughes.
I’ve been looking forward to seeing him pitch on the big league level since we drafted him.
Twinsfan-
you’re not getting Hughes AND Melky. You’ll get Hughes and nobody, or Melky and Kennedy. You’d be better off to just take our pitching after Hughes.
Omar Minaya is odds on favorite to win the Executive of the Year award. He’ll sign Shawn Green to back up Church and his best move will be signing Mo Vaughn to a 2-year deal.
i was just going by what minaya said on the radio. he said he hasn’t been given a chance to play full time and that his production would be better next season when he got to play full time.
i
Me too CB. I was literally laughing out loud when I read how much he was bashing the Mets.
wow treg, that’s a great stat. I had no idea granderson was that bad against lefties.
I just think mlb ready impact prosepects doesn’t exclude someone like Shelley Duncan filling a role that the Twins need badly. After Morneau’s 31 HR and Torii Hunter 28HR which are gone now, only 2 guys hit double digit jacks above 12. That is pathetic and anemic and bringing a guy who could hit 25 for 375k is not exactly throwaway.
So for the record, when he is included in the deal I want a bobcat medal.
Adam: that’s why you’re not a GM.
Well everyone, it’s been fun reading everything today. I’m out. I’ll probably check in tonight/tomorrow to see if anything new has developed but I’m not gonna be holding my breath since I’m pretty sure nothing will happen now until the meetings start. Hopefully there’s a Bobcat sighting tonight with an update. Later.
Or, TF could have said “It’s interesting and slightly amusing that Heyman seems to agree with me.” It’s lowbrow, but it works.
To which I will still say:
1. Heyman is a maroon; and
2. Upon reading the Heyman article linked above (on SI’s website), Heyman said that the Yankees are thinking about giving up Hughes, but they don’t want to. Similarly, Heyman continues, the Red Sox are thinking about giving up Ellsbury and/or Buckholz, but they don’t want to. This is news to us?
twins fan,
After all I told you you still think you can get Hughes?
You should be ecstatic to just get Melky.
rb15:
it’s the part where if the Twins don’t get Hughes or Buchholtz or Ellsbury that they walk away.
Marc,
you’re the stereotypical clueless Yankees fan.
Melky is a throw-in.
The reason why granderson plays against lefties is because he’s 25 and is getting better each year.
it’s not uncommon for young left handed hitter to struggle against left handed major league pitching. you have to let them ride it out.
that’s a lot different than Church’s situation.
Heyman thought the Yanks should trade Joba for Gagne. He’s a tremendously nice guy, but his job is to generate buzz, not rationality.
No word of Loretta/NYY on XM this afternoon between 4 and 5 p.m. on their updates. Does this mean it didn’t happen or it’s not official?
Maroon?
How ironic ….
so again, why do you care what this Bobcat thinks when all he’s doing is reporting stuff from elsewhere that you haven’t read so you think it’s inside info?
(for example, the actual Garza/Young trade was broken on the Startribune website BEFORE Bobcat posted it here)
twinsfan-
please. don’t come in here, say some bs and insult people.
Ok I see your point and it makes sense, but there are several other full-time players with worse lefty-righty splits than Church has. I’m sure I can find more besides Granderson.
The Mets would be smartest by using him in a platoon (but he would still get the majority of the ABs since he bats well against righties) however he doesn’t kill them overall by getting at bats against lefties.
twinsnerd
get your head out of canada’s ass and realize this…
YOU ARE GETTING NOTHING NOW FOR YOUR SOON TO BE DEPARTED ACE.
go to carlos and ask him where he will be playing, let him tell you what the dealio is!
twinsfan,
that’s a little unfair that he’s a throw in. he’s a very good defensive centerfielder and has at least some offensive upside remaining. he has been a valuable asset for the yankees, despite his lack of power.
he’s not the centerpiece, but he’s not a throw-in. In fact, from our perspective, none of these guys are throw ins. Horne and Tabata are two of our top 10 prospects. Tabata will almost certainly hit over.300 at the major league level. the only question is whether he will develop power. if he does, he will be a star — and this is not an understatement. the guy has ridiculous potential.
horne was the eastern league pitcher of the year, and is already very close to meeting his ceiling as a good #3 starter.
if that package includes hughes, i gotta think the you as a twins fan would be excited about that return.
i know it would hurt yanks fans to give it up.
O.K. so Minaya playing Church full-time to get him going would be like the Yankees playing Betemit to do the same?
A Maroon? From the island of Jamaica?
berra8
don’t feed the troll.
the twinkies are getting nothing from us but 2 draft choices and twinsboy knows this all too well…all 12 years old that he is.
I dunno, makes sense to me. Maroon 5 is pretty moronic.
Again, it’s nice that Heyman is reporting that they want Hughes. We knew that. That’s what all this posturing has been about.
I think the yankees will be able to wait out the twins. Santana is the one with the leverage here and he’s tied the twins hands.
Clearly, if there are so many leaks about the twins demands to the yankees the twins must be very interested in the yankee package and are trying to get the yanks to tweak it.
Unless the sox offer buchholz or ellsbury the twins have no leverage. The twins have no use for Coco Crisp. None whatsoever.
adam levine (of maroon 5) hooks up with hot chicks all the time though.
by the way, I forget santanas 1st name, havent seen it mentioned in here once
Twinsfan:
The Yankees have too many good pitching prospects than the Sox to lose out on this deal.
Twinsfan-
you’re a typical fan of a no name team that comes to a yankees blog like he owns the place. we love how you hates us yet follow our every move.
yankees fans are a lot of things, but usually ‘clueless’ isn’t one of them. we’re actually pretty knowledgable about the game because we love it.
For the record, a team’s starting center feilder usually isn’t a ‘throw in’ in a trade. he may not have value to you, and we understand why, but he has value to us. he’s our center fielder and very good on D with a great arm. at the moment, we don’t have a replacement, so it’s not likely we give up our top pitching prospect (one of the top prosepcts in the game) and our center fielder for a pitcher we can sign in a year anyway.
TF:
That Heyman article doesn’t say anything unexpected. It’s a trade, and the Twins can walk away any time they want to.
It’s pretty obvious to most of us here that if the Twins are serious about getting either Hughes, Buckholz or Ellsbury, and they don’t, that they’ll walk away.
It’s also obvious to most of us here that if the Twins walk away, they will have to try to shop Johan at the trading deadline. Unfortunately for the Twins, it looks like they will have an extremely lackluster first half next year, seeing as how Minnesota has recently lost a number of position players and pitchers, including a (free-agent) center fielder, as noted in above posts.
It’s also obvious, or at least the hopes and dreams, of most of us here, that the Twins are trying to up the ante on the Yankees. This is why the Twins are leaking reports to the effect of “OMG the SOX will maybe give THE TWINS ELLSBURY!!!!!”
If I was the owner of the Twins, I would be very rich, and I would be very scared of receiving a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Past any day now. In addition, I would seriously consider my team’s outlook in 2008, and realize that Johan’s trade value is probably not going to get any better than it is right now. I would trade him, and in the end, I would take the best deal I could get right now.
“if that package includes hughes, i gotta think the you as a twins fan would be excited about that return.
i know it would hurt yanks fans to give it up.”
I agree with that. and Melky would be useful..don’t get me wrong. and cheaper than Crisp.
I just don’t see us doing it for less than Hughes/Melky/prospect.
Kennedy is just too similar to pitchers we already have. (when we traded Garza we gave up our Hughes)
Carlos “You’ve got to change your evil ways” Santana
Joanne.
Yo-han.
Dantana.
Stop it! Must..resist..nicknames..before..egg..hatches..
It’s down to the Red Sox and Yankees, and if an extended contact would cost them 6 years and 150M, I would think they both hope he is traded to the NL. No to trading Cano, who is the best 2nd baseman since Willie Randolph, and no to trading Hughes, who should win 15 games or more staying healthy. Do the Sox really want him? No!
Yes it’s nice to have a lefty starter, but it’s not worth trading away young proven talent and on top of that paying Santana 23-25M/year. Let them look at Dan Haren, who has about 3 years left on his contract, and at his age-27 and success I’d consider trading Hughes and another AA pitcher for him.
you are in no position to choose, don’t you understand son? the man has a NO TRADE CLAUSE, Jeez
“funny, Heymann thinks the same way I do.”
Hey TwinsFan:
I agree, Heyman is regurgitating crap that everyone in the Media has already been fed – just like you!
UM…………………….
dat’s what I tink!
marc,
don’t argue. johan is loyal and minnesota nice. he will not screw the twins over.
Adam:
Adam:
I just can’t respect the baseball acumen of people who think that:
A. Santana has steadily been on the decline “for the last four years”.
B. that MN is interested in Wang or Karstens.
C. that MN just wants a quantity of pitching prospects (when they’re already loaded with them).
D. that some guy who just posts stuff he read in non-NY papers has inside knowledge.
I’ll forgive people still thinking that Torri Hunter is a great center-fielder…that’s an understandable error, kind of like my understating Wang’s statistics.
mel,
lmfao
Hey I had no clue about this. Here’s Melky’s line against lefties last season: .250 .317 .324 (.641 OPS)
Melky’s OPS against righties is over .100 higher (.747)
His OPS is worse than Church’s against lefties. But forget Church in all of this since he’s supposed to be a better hittere than Melky anyway. Does this mean that Melky either should be platooned or just shouldn’t be a switch-hitter maybe?
mel,
methinks i hurt twinboys feelings but,
he called me names.
marc,
this whole thread’s been a hoot. i mean come on, did you see any yankee fan clamoring for hunter? i don’t recall seeing anything like that.
TwinsFan,
Take ABC + D to an AOL chatroom
Most people here agree with what you’re saying, but you offer no valid input.
mel
humor is good.
ignorance bad.
TF, that’s Torii Hunter, not Torri. Maybe he’s not your favorite player after all.
I think he’s getting old, personally. But you and I both know the Twins fanbase loved him. And obviously, the Angels think he still has something left in the tank. Just think: those two draft picks could have been a legitimate trade.
Now, I’m really leaving. Goodnight, everyone.
I’d be happy to see the twins walk away and keep santana.
his value plummets during the season. he still has the no trade clause and every month he gets closer to free agency he’ll have less and less reason to not test the market. he won’t agree to any trades he doesn’t want.
at the same time hughes, chamberalin and kennedy will do well in the majors and their value will increase.
if its true that he wants to play in new york (which even torii hunter – his friend and teamate has said several times) then santana will be able to force a trade to the yankees before the deadline.
He will not sign an extension even if he does approve a trade because he wants to test the market. the players association is already hoping he’ll hit the market to reset the bar for pitcher’s salaries.
no extension – he becomes a 3 month rental. when he hits the market next year the yankees will sign him – or sabbathia
I want them to have Santna for the playoffs for this 2008. But I think the yankees will be patient.
mel,
wha happened to ray, he baited me and ran away after i said we picked up his garbage…rocket, boggs and the Babe.
marc,
lol. like we haven’t seen it before from beantown fans. “I come in peace. I really respect your team. I just want to talk baseball with intelligent fans. Your team sucks. Ours is better. Oh, but I just wanted to talk baseball.” Classic passive-aggressive behavior. “What? What did I do?”
well said CB
mel,
children.
treg,
melky is a 22 year old switch hitter who is getting better every year. often young switch hitters have a difficulty against left handed pitching because they don’t face them much in the minors.
you have to give them a chance to get experience. melky came up at age 20. think about that.
in other words – see my comments on granderson and then magnify them because melky is younger than granderson.
hey treg I have a list of players with a lower OPS vs LH than ryan church in a similar number of at-bats
giles (marcus)
lugo
ibanez
pena
crosby (oakland)
drew (boston)
schneider (LOL!)
lopez (seattle)
willingham
pierre
rolen
vizquel
cabrera (melky)
matthews jr
freel
green (shawn…LOL!)
barfield
lofton
kendall
granderson
punto
News Bulletin…
Just heard on FAN…
The Twins have announced we can have Santana as long as Hughes is in the deal.
They must have been reading this blog.
Or was Twins fan really their GM in disguise?
my job is done here.
have exterminated all vermin.
Thanks for the list, Yard. A lot of full-time players are in there.
That’s really funny about Green and Schneider!
Cashman respond w/ “Hughes is off the table”
follow that w/ Melky, Horne, Kennedy or no deal
LETS PLAY HARDBALL SMITH
I want Isiah gone!!!
The main reason why Santana will definitely be traded is…now I could be wrong but the 1st 15 draft picks are protected. So lets say next year the Dodgers are awful and Santana signs with them if there draft pick is in the top 1-15 the Twins would only get a supplemental pick in the 1st round. Now you can get a good pick with that but if it was me I would rather 4 prospects then 1 for the best pitcher in baseball.
Please, please, Hank. For the sake of the Empire, please stick to, “no comment”.
Not sure how many know this, but there actually is a *Carlos* Santana in baseball.
I ran across his name looking at Johan’s stats the other day.
“I want Isiah gone!!!”
marc, can you do anything about that?
captains corner,
its even worse than that for them. they keep santana they have to keep nathan. they can’t say we’ll take our shot with santana this season and then get rid of nathan.
alternatively can you imagine how angry santana will be if nathan gets traded but he doesn’t?
they’ll get a ransom for nathan if they trade him before the season starts.
they could get a couple of supplemental picks for santana and nathan if they decide not to trade santana
What do they play when Santana comes on the field now? Do they play “Black Magic Woman?”
Remember, it’s Carlos “Devadip” Santana.
Better yet…Isiah AND Dolan!
Knicks are the Biggest Joke of all Sports right now.
NO NO NO NO I’M THE DON JUAN WHEN IT COMES TO RAGGIN’ ON FIRING ISIAH
marc, wfan gets most of there info from internet wire reports. So they are basically reading what Heyman just wrote that the Twins want Hughes in the deal. Nothing new, we all knew that.
Actually, wfan cited Heyman’s report. So, nothing new there.
Anybody here realize that Church’s career OPS against lefties is .723? That’s not screaming out for a platoon, folks. He was 1 for 8 against the spectacular Cole Hamels last year. With barely more than 100 total at bats against lefties, I’m sure that had something to do with Church’s exaggerated struggles against lefties last season.
mel
November 30th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
marc,
“lol. like we haven’t seen it before from beantown fans. “I come in peace. I really respect your team. I just want to talk baseball with intelligent fans. Your team sucks. Ours is better. Oh, but I just wanted to talk baseball.†Classic passive-aggressive behavior. “What? What did I do?—
Mel and Marc….not once have I ever come on this blog with the tired old statements about Yankees suck or that Red Sox are better.
yeah Church’s OPS against lefthanders minus Cole Hamels last year was .700 rounded to 3 digits. So it’s just a tad below his career number of .723. That’s a passable OPS.
With Cole Hamels added into the mix, it was .655.
So I would conclude that isn’t any urgent need for this guy to be part of a platoon.
btw any pissed off Knicks fans like me that need some humor just click on this
http://www.zshare.net/audio/5282460d196b84/
ray,
believe it or not, you’re the only exception to that statement.
choof,
no its much worse than that. you’re doing what people often do with statistics – just take them at face value.
Ryan Zimmerman had 147 at bats against lefties last season in 162 games. Church had 118 at bats against lefties in 144 games. So church had 20% fewer at bats against lefties than zimmerman.
what does that tell you?
the nats probably protected him against tougher lefties.
the washington manager knows church doesn’t hit lefties well and sat him roughly 20% of the time they faced lefties. Chances are the manager sat him against the tougher lefties rather the the easier ones (cole hamels excluded – the nats/ phillies play 18 or 19 times so he may have sat games against hamels in addition to having 8 at bats – who knows).
Chances are if he faced those other 20% of lefties that the Nats saw – tougher lefties in all probability – his OPS would even worse.
According to ESPN sources – Arod’s deal could reach $314 million
ESPN story link
Didn’t see this anywhere but Kay just announced on his show that Olney is reporting that the Yankees are having internal discussions now about including Hughes in a deal for Santana and are leaning towards yes. Apparently Kennedy isn’t cutting it.
Holy… friggin’ … moley that’s a lot of moolah.
Personally, I think it’s all a negotiating ploy on the part of the Twins to get the Yanks to up their offer – because if the Sox were really that far ahead as far as a better package, the Twins would have just stamped the OK on it and moved forward. I was hoping the Yanks wouldn’t blink, but overall, I can’t say I’m disappointed. Getting a Santana is a big upgrade.
Can anyone find a report of the Garza/Young trade that states the deal was made and names all six players involved, that is time-stamped prior to 3:16PM on the 28th?
TwinsFaninNY said the Star Tribune posted it before Bobcat but the StarTribune link I found had a time around 1:15AM on the 29th (11 hours later).
There were lots of “close to” reports prior to Bobcat. I’m looking for one that actually says the deal was made and was able to list all 6 players.
ray has been great during his stay at this blog, no way can he be compared to the typical Red Sox fan, he adds a lot to this forum, not sure what, but something I think. lol
Haren.
Head On, apply directly to your ( )( ) hole
I can’t take it anymore, can we just get it over with already!
What does not getting it done mean?
The twins are going to accept the red sox package unless hughes is included? they are just going to pull santana off the market?
the yankees should stay patient. l
Gee Buddy….not sure if that was a compliment or not! You made me laugh. I wonder how long it will be before the whole Santana issue will be resolved. I know in a post earlier SJ said with all the rumors and saber rattling going on he wouldn’t be surprised if something got settled soon.
May 21 – Bronson Arroyo (RHP)
Jun 14 – Guthrie (RHP)
Jun 17 – Towers (RHP)
July 1 – Maholm (LHP)
July 4 – Hill (LHP)
July 22 – Fogg (RHP)
August 24 – Francis (LHP)
August 25 – Jimenez (RHP)
September 3rd – VandenHurk (RHP)
September 4th – Willis (LHP)
September 8th – James (LHP)
September 15th – Cormier (RHP)
September 18th – Maine (RHP)
September 19th – Pelfrey (RHP)
September 25th – Glavine (LHP)
September 28th – Hamels (LHP)
September 30th – Moyer (LHP)
I found 17 games where Church didn’t play. I must have missed one. But those are the starters. 8 lefties. That’s less than half. And then, how many of those are “elite”? Moyer? Glavine? Maholm? I wouldn’t include those guys as elite. I’ll give you Hill, Willis, Hamels, and Francis. Maybe James.
If you look at the dates, they are mostly near the end of the year (he missed 11 games after August 23rd). It seems to me that the Nationals were out of the race letting Church rest more rather than afraid of his number against lefties.
Sous les pavés, la plage.
ray,
For a Sawx fan, you do very well here. You’re not off the Wall ( get it? nyuck nyuck )in the least. Your welcome here anytime.
ray-
It was a backhanded compliment, you do add a lot, funny that there seems to be a lot more fighting amongst Yankee fans. I prefer the more enlightening discussions that the regulars are accustomed to, like will the Yankees will hire Beckett’s ex to sing the National anthem for opening day at Yankee stadium?
Buster Olney is nothing more than a Rumor Monger. He is almost never right.
“Didn’t see this anywhere but Kay just announced on his show that Olney is reporting that the Yankees are having internal discussions now about including Hughes in a deal for Santana and are leaning towards yes. Apparently Kennedy isn’t cutting it.”
I hope that’s false. I hope it’s just Hank getting impatient and that the rest of the braintrust is telling him to calm down. The Sox don’t want to include Ellsbury or Bucholz. No one else is going to beat Kennedy + Melky + Horne + Tabata/Jackson. If that’s not enough for them…fine. Let them wait. You can’t deal if you’re not willing to walk away from the table. With a patchwork rotation and a terrible rash of injuries, the Yanks won 94 games. With that team PLUS some high-end young pitching talent…why are they afraid of anyone?
Buster is more accurate and astute than Gammons.
If what Heyman says is true, and they’ll hold onto Santana if we don’t give up Hughes, and the Sox don’t give up Ellsbury/Laptop Boy, then the cards are in our hands. You stay put with your offer and take your chances in free agency. If it’s true that the Sox aren’t truly serious about Johan, then their bluff is called.
Now you REALLY keep Phil Hughes.
Breaking. . .
The Yankees are having internal discussions about what to have for dinner tonight and are leaning toward Chinese.
Mitchell’s Eleven,
That scenario works, but do you think there’s a chance that Minny takes Boston’s 2nd tier prospects? HoHoHo. That’s a good one.
Choof,
Interesting stuff. But I still stand by what i said. If he sat in 8 games against lefties and 9 against righties they were clearly sitting him against lefties more often (given how many more righties there are) and doing that for a reason.
I didn’t call the lefties he’d sat against “elite.” I said “tougher
If he played those 8 games his ops would be considerably worse. As it is an ops of 655 is not good for a corner outfielder.
Natecat here:
The deal is driving us insane. Lists have been exchanged. They both list off people. We’re not sure what’s happening. But we’re all nuts. Gotta go. Check back later.
Guy -
Okay – my French dictionary did not help. What????
Am I the only one that’s curious as to why the Yanks seem to be close to signing Mark Loretta? They already have Wilson Betemint, Andy Phillips and could always bring Miguel Cairo back.
I’ve been here throughout Santanamania Week and I’ve come to believe SJ44 et al in their belief Cano is out of scope in the deal. But why are they looking to bring in another 2nd baseman? Unless it’s a backup plan in case the worst case scenario plays out and the Yanks have to give up Cano or lose Santana to the Saux.
mel,
I don’t know what scares me more….facing Santana in a Red Sox uniform, or Phil Hughes a couple of years from now in a Twins uniform.
I don’t see how they’d take Boston’s current offer over ours. Ours just seems tons better. Crisp is not the kind of player financially they want and, as much as you root for him, and as unfair as it may be, Lester carries a health question mark with him.
Todd,
You may want to get a hobby if you are scavaging old post to see exactly what time someone wrote something and comparing it to newspaper articles. That may be unhealthy
A silent, cold wind whips through the city of big apples. No pizza falls as the prize once did. There are elements of bad electricity, hanging in the air after the fall of the prophecy, as the chosen one failed in the face of destiny.
His blood still seeps across the field, a child eating a lollipop tickles a frog that only barely understands Farsi. His words echo…but he has failed a city.
They prosper in the city of clams, even though they are hooved kind, unable of speaking properly and constantly insulting mothers. They hold a gold trophy over their heads. Somewhere, a humpback whale vomits in disgust, while pernicious seahorses point and laugh.
Clemens banged his fist. But his words were dampened by the secret agents of clam city, locked in a deadly deal with those who suppress cannibals.
The grand plan–to pretend to eat Kyle Fransworth as a team and strike fear into every opponent’s heart–was sabotaged by Omar Moreno and Bobby Meacham, who lobbied with Americans Agianst Cannibals (AAC) and ate peaches with unruly Amish children.
“Has the fist of Clemens been passed to a new cannibal?” asked the poor child, his frog now safely on its way to Isfahan. And from the bullpen, a green pulsating light was seen. An old woman standing in a window in the South Bronx began to cry at the sight as her floor turned to ambrosia, devouring her old clock.
A young man, 21 years old, emerged from the bullpen, wearing the blood-colored woolen glove that Joe Torre was to use after the staged devouring of Farnsworth. The child shook and was never seen or heard from again.
Green lightning hits the pitching mound at Yankee Stadium at this very moment. Over the city of clams, clouds in the shape of fists are forming as its citizens dance in slow motion drinking robitussin and singing Raffi songs.
A new era has begun.
Hughes
will
bang
his
fist
A P R I L 2 0 0 8
Drive,
I think Betemit has eaten his way to being a backup at 1st and 3rd only, and Loretta is probably an upgrade over Cairo. While I’d love to see the Atty General get the nod as backup, I understand the bat just isn’t there with him.
I wouldn’t worry too much about Robbie.
People will say I’m crazy, irrational, but I would give up 3 pitching prospects in place of Hughes.
If we HAVE to give up Hughes, just do the straight trade. If they want him that BADLY. lol.
Can’t disagree more about Buster Olney. I read his blog everyday because he’s one of the best baseball insiders in the business.
He was also the first media guy to say that Girardi was going to get the Yankee job (the same day Torre left, no less) when everyone else thought it was going to be Mattingly.
Sure, Olney is wrong sometimes – but his sources are as good as anyone in the business.
mel,
I agree with the first part. While I wish the second was true, it ain’t happening.
I definitely agree that .655 OPS against lefties is not good for any player. And I agree it probably would have been lower if he faced Francis and Hill and Willis etc.
But I don’t think the manager benched him because of that. Perhaps Church had a late-year nagging injury. The fact that the majority of his absences occurred in September strongly indicates that something else was going on that motivated the manager to bench him at that time. He didn’t miss a game against a LHP until July 1st (unless the one game I missed on the list occurred prior to that). Maybe it took the manager all year to finally catch on? I’m not so sure. Manny Acta is a smart guy and one of the few managers who actually knows about OPS and some of the newer stats, and I think he felt mostly comfortable with Church out there. Starting 144 games is pretty good. Zimmerman started 162 games, but how many others in baseball did that? Many full-time players get in about 140-150 games a year.
I guess my final conclusion is this. Church’s teams would be better off with a backup player to sub in for him when facing lefties, but his overall career OPS of .723 against lefties is not a severe liability. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of regular full-time players with a lower career OPS agaisnt lefties. Even if it is somewhat inflated by strategic benchings, my findings from before convince me that this inflation is not all that significant.
mel,
i completely agree. I would trade kennedy, horne, and marques/ mccutcheon in addition to melky and tabata to get this done rather than hughes.
let’s see what happens. no one in the press has commented one way or another about what santana wants – which is the most important thing.
i think santana’s not leaking that out of respect for the twins – if it got out widely about hte place he wants to play then the twins would have no market at all – they’d have that one team.
there was a reason why santana had that no trade put in his contract – he saw what happenned to other stars on the twins when they got expensive. that clause is there for him to use.
Thinking about some of the things Bobcat said, does anyone think the Yankees gave Olney this information to see if the Sox counter with Bucholtz or Ellsbury?
Giuseppe,
I agree. Some fans are just crazy. A Yankee and Red Sox fan could listen to the same report and both say the person has a bias against there team. I really don’t get why people make such a big deal about Gammons, Olney, etc. They really don’t care who wins, their job is to report news and they really could care less if either the Yanks or Sox get Santana, they still get paid. I think some people just like to have an inferiority complex and think everyone hates the team they root for.
Greg,
When was the last time Bobcat said anything? He hasn’t been on here today has he?
Rob Dibble, on his show, doesn’t seem to think it’s worth the risk to go for Santana, basically saying that even a pitcher of his stature could come up lame at any time and then what do you have? He has a point, but then, you’d never take a chance on any pitcher, would you?
He also thinks the Red Sox, especially, have no need to take that risk (of Santana coming up lame some day) since they already have a good pitching staff and a WS Championship under their belts. He thinks the Yankees would probably do fine without Santana, but since they finished 8th in pitching last year, it was more worth the risk-taking for them than for the Red Sox. He then said the Mets, who have NO pitching, should risk it. The fact that the Mets have nothing to trade didn’t seem to enter into the argument at all.
He also loves Melky Cabrera and thinks the Yankees should hang onto him, citing his defensive abilities and the fact that he’s good offensively (not great, good).
It was just interesting hearing a disinterested party speak about the situation. I really like listening to Dibble. He shoots straight from the cuff and seems to not have a hidden agenda.
He also interviewed Jim Bowden, GM of the Nats, who had been scouting Milledge from his high school days and is very happy to have him in Washington next season. Bowden said he realizes Milledge had some “maturity” issues, and that they took that into consideration, but he felt Milledge had grown up some this past season. Said the deal with the Mets was months in the making. Interesting.
Just some different perspectives I thought would calm the natives a bit. I sincerely wish I didn’t care one way or the other about Santana. I’m trying to think, if he wasn’t available, wouldn’t I be very excited about the 3 kids next season? And the answer to that is “Yes, of course!” But I just don’t want Boston to get him.
Jake,
That is true, but even if he is nobody important, and not connected to MLB at all, some of the things he said made a lot of sense.
Outside of a few flashes of power, Betemit looked completely overmatched at the plate last year. Is it possible for him to start the season in AAA?
You’re a wise man, Maverick.
I’ve never bought into that stupid N-ESPN argument or anti-Yankee bias whatsoever.
The truth of the matter is that ESPN is both pro-Yankees AND pro-Red Sox – which is why these two teams alone get more coverage than all other MLB teams combined.
ESPN only cares about ratings – not which team is doing what.
ok, here’s your proof that the trade was out before Bobcat posted it.
This was posted before 2:00 PM on the startribune website on the 28th (you can check from the times of the comments):
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=276
Let’s be honest. Phil has a TON of potential, there’s no doubt about it. But he does not, at this stage, possess an overpowering pitch in his arsenal. He absolutely needs to develop a change up to keep hitters from sitting on his fastball or curve. He also need to learn how to keep his pitch count down. He was consistently around the 95 pitch mark by the 5th inning in most of his starts this year.
I’m not bashing Phil Hughes at all. He’s only 21 and his composure in the ALDS gave a glimpse of the guts he has.I’m just trying to bring a little dose of reality. I think a lot of folks have an image of Phil as a sure thing. The truth is, he’s a work in progress.
Twinsfan,
Whether he’s legit or not, Bobcat has sparked more intelligent conversation on here thatn anyone else and, at the very least, is pretty damn good at getting people to think like a GM. At the very, very least, he knows his stuff.
Great dude, its taken you all day but you finally proved that this blog is not where all sports news is broken. Apparently, reporters across the country can in fact do their job.
I for one, am shocked.
Thanks for the info.
Jealousy is a terrible thing…
Maverick and Guiseppe
I definitely agree that we as fans are quick to see a bias with a particular network or sportswriter. I know a lot of Yankee fans would disagree but I have never noticed a big bias with ESPN reporting. I enjoy hearing what Gammons has to say but I have to admit that even as a Red Sox fan it seems that sometimes Gammons does indeed have a Red Sox bias.
Drive,
Weren’t we all once works in progress….some of us still are…
Folks like Bobcat, Miller ( the real one) and SJ44 help keep folks attention with their insightful take on baseball matters. Add the terrific cast of regulars here and you have the best baseball blog on the ‘net.
Bobcat would have to be one hell of multi-tasker to be able to pull all the plots/trades he has 24 hours before they transpired. And from where? The guy has more baseball knowledge in his toe than anyone else here. Reading any of his comments from the past week reveals how much he knows about the game and the players.
drive 4-5
Like the three change-ups he froze Teixiera with in the Texas no-no?
He has two different curves he can get strikes with, and a slider and he gets a lot of K’s with his ability to paint the black.
Watch what he does healthy in 2008.
I’m assuming that’s 2pm CENTRAL TIME Twinsfan. Also known as 3pm Eastern time. About the same time Bobcat posted it here.
Twins Fan seems to have an agenda and/or is upset that his team is losing its best players.
However….
I have to agree with him that the odds favor the Yanks giving Hughes/Melky/prospect. I hope the yanks can squeeze him for as little as possible, but the Twins will likely wait if they dont get Hughes now.
I personally think Kennedy’s trade value will go up higher anyway after he gets to show his stuff (if he plays for the big league club) next season. I think Kennedy and Buchholz will have similar success. Mark it down!
Greg,
That was a serious question…when has Bobcat been on here the latest? I haven’t noticed him today…
Boston Dave,
Ceiling be damned. I liked Kennedy’s composure in his few starts. I think he’ll be better than the projections say.
Still, I’d hit him over the head with a shovel in order to keep Phil Hughes.
Twins Fan, you have little basis for knocking bobcat or anyone else on here. I think you made some very good points but you lose credibility when you knock people like that and it takes away from the reasonable things you do have to say.
Mitchells… no doubt
but if the twins walk away now and kennedy pitches well, his value will go up. its virtually impossible for santanas value to go up… its already sky high.
so assuming the Sox dont get santana, the yankees dont stand to lose much if the Twins do walk away right now – assuming no injuries and the youngsters pitch fairly well.
~Adam.
November 30th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
I’m assuming that’s 2pm CENTRAL TIME Twinsfan. Also known as 3pm Eastern time. About the same time Bobcat posted it here.
Exactly. And it wasn’t just Bobcat throwing out news ahead of time. He explained the process, details and the general way all of this works. He wasn’t here to break a story before some dope in minnesota
Bobcat is probably working overtime on that Milledge-Schenider/Church blockbuster deal from earlier today.
There are no dopes in Minny, eh!
Buster Olney said pizza…
Bobcat????
i know i’ll probably get hell for saying this, but i honestly think ellsbury is over rated if you look at his minor league numbers hey are just a little bit better than brett gardner. don’t get me wrong i think he’ll be a good center fielder, but thats his ceiling IMO. a good center field, not a great, or a star CF but good. and gardner will be a good 4th OF
ESPN’s Buster Olney believes the Yankees are leaning towards offering Phil Hughes to the Twins in a Johan Santana deal.
Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Austin Jackson/Jose Tabata for Santana not only would be very costly for the Yankees in terms of talent, but also in cash, since they might decide to go out and get Aaron Rowand to replace Cabrera in center field. Olney thinks the Red Sox are already hedging their bets in the Santana talks by discussing Dan Haren with the A’s.
Doreen :
Rob Dibble just doesn’t understand. Many things are chancy. Christopher Columbus took a chance. That’s why we’re all here.
Phil,
I’m not bashing Hughes. He’s a kid and he’s learning. I watch every game. I personally saw 3 of his starts. I was there when the Yanks won 16-8 against Kanasa City and Phil couldnt get the win because Torre had to take him out with 2 outs in the 5th after he let the score get tied 6-6. I saw him throw 95 pitches by the 5th inning in both of the other starts I saw.
He does need to learn to be more efficient and there’s not a scouting report on him that doesnt say he needs to learn a changeup. I love the kid. But he is just that, a kid.People forget that Cashman swore that Hughes would stay in the minors in ’07.He was forced up due to all the injuries we had.
Bobcat stated that he can only post info that is cleared for the public to hear, the Star Tribune most likely got the info at the same time he posted it here. He doesn’t claim to break stories here, why risk his job for that.
I do not want Hughes to be included in the trade, or Melky in fact, but I am more resigned to the fact that Melky is gone. I want to see how Hughes pitches while healthy with Eiland there as his pitching coach.
However, if it does come to pass, I can only hope that the advice of people more knowledgable than me; Eiland, Contreras, Guidry, will be taken under advisement to make the best possible deal for the long haul.
Ellsbury is going to be a really good player.
Jake
Bobcat hasn’t been on, but what Greg’s asking and I think is a great question, is that Bobcat’s theme about the media is that we hear what we are given to hear. It’s posturing. So when we throw in the idea publicly that we will consider putting Hughes in the deal, we aren’t necessarily putting Hughes in the deal. We are, however, making Boston show its cards of whether they’d now throw in Buccholz. If not, their final offer is what it is, maybe a bluff has been called, maybe not, but then I still believe that the Twins would accept a Kennedy/Horne/Cabrera/Tabata package before the Crisp offer. That is such an awful offer. If the Sox do put a “Buccholz is in” announcement, then essentially we would have to be ready to commit Hughes to keep negotiating?
How does this grab you guys:
Phil Hughes grew up a Boston Red Sox fan because his dad is a huge Sox fan.
How much would you guys love for Hughes to be sent to Minny, eventually hit Free Agency, and become a Red Sux in 5 years when Johan is on his downhill slide?
Basically, we just learned that Hughes is being traded. If they are “considering it”, it will get done.
HAHA, I just read this comment over on the twins blog by some idiot:
Yes. And while you are at it, why don’t we throw in A-Rod, Chamberlain and Jeter. Cause you know.. we want to make sure you guys are getting a good deal.
As has been said here (and is true in general), impatience is costly.
Cash is waiting this out. He is waiting for Minnesota to blink, in the hope of keeping Phil Hughes. If certain people can keep their pants on, the Yankees will have Johan Santana without giving up Hughes, though certain A-level players with high ceilings may be swapped. I think that Minny will also get Melky, as I think his style of play will translate well to their field.
Jake, this could be the yankees trying to drive up the price on the sox… All this info is garbage because the teams are leaking it on purpose…
If Hank is stupid enough to make this trade, bank on the fact that Hughes will be a Red Sock one day, probably soon.
Jake:
You’d write great horror books but, please, quit it.
I think Hughes will stay as well.
Please tell me the maroon (:P) is gone! The one who said Melky is a throw in!!
Anyone one else think that Pete and Bobcat are the same person?
ALL HAIL BOBCAT
)
Cano and Hughes!! Trading just Hughes is too much but to do both!!
jake i woldn’t look to much into “consider trading hughes” cashman himself have said pretty much any player is tradeable. if the right trade came for jeter i’m sure cashman would “consider” trading jeter as well.
go ahead and say “oh man the todd he would never trade jeter”
i’m sure he wouldn’t, but if the right trade came around i would bet he would consider it.
they really like hughes, which is one of the reasons why eiland is the new pitching coach because he has worked with alot of these kids. I have faith that hughes will be in yanke pinstripes next year
Drive 4-5 did you see him in September, when his health was back and Eiland came up and fixed his mechanics?
And, absolutely, be careful of what you read. The GMs don’t give a hoot about the fans knowing anything. What info they release they do so for their own purposes. And what the writers on SI, or ESPN report, they do so for their own agendas – keep the buzz going, keep them seemingly relelvant, stay in the good graces of their sources.
The fans are the last on the food chain of information.
hows was hughes velocity toward the end of the season… he was throwing 94 before he got hurt… I cant remember…
I appreciate a good inside source as much as the next guy but some of you guys might want to step back a little from your man crush on Bobcat.
Exactly it would be a huge mistake to trade Phil. While we would be getting a stud pitcher in return. Phil will be a stud for years to come!
Ya, you guys could be right about driving up the price.
Mitchell’s Eleven: hilarious comment.
So you gotta figure that if the Sox say they’ll trade Ellsbury or Bucholz, all hell will break loose, right?
I mean, as if this isn’t a circus already…imagine the repurcussions if either of those clowns are thrown in the vat.
well i can see hughes in the twins jersey, not redsox, i wolud like haren though, cheaper, auctually, i would like to keep phil.
Cash needs to hold firm, and call everyones bluff. They cannot trade one of our best pitching prospects in years!
Bphill,
I think your comment just summed up the thought process that the Yankees are going through right now.
bp – santana’s numbers at the stadium are incredible and he is just entering his prime
Hughes + Haren > Santana + Kennedy
true or false?
Yankees Rotation
Wang, Hughes, Kennedy, Joba (Petitte) that pretty good, if petitte doesn’t come back then so what sign Josh Fogg or someone, but keep the young talent. Please. I’d rather have Santanna go to the Redsox where they unload their prospects, and then we can get Bedard or someone in a few years for no prospects.
Clowns? Did someone say ‘clowns’?
sorry about that, thought a little comic relief would be good
I’m sorry, but if the Yankees trade Phil Hughes I will lose all faith in Brian Cashman.
He’s said for quite some time that he REALLY wants to become young, and this guy, I believe, is going to be better than Joba.
If he trades Hughes for ANYBODY I’ll be pissed, it’ll be a complete contradiction of what he said he would do.
And not only can’t I trust that, but I truly think it’d be STUPID to trade hughes
But Jennifer, they can!
I have just decided that I would be devastated if Hughes got traded. I quickly embraced him.
Having said that, if we get Johan Santana, I could be quickly consoled.
Jake,
btw, who’s your nba team?
Wondering,
Thats assuming Billy Beane doesn’t demand Phil Hughes.
Honestly, any BIG trade the Yankees make will probably have to include Phil Hughes. Just the way it is.
This is why the Yankees are having a tough time with this decision and rightfully so.
Not an easy trigger to pull, cutting loose who Jennifer referred accurately to as “one of our best pitching prospects in years!”
i want to keep hughes, i think we can get santana without letting hughes go…
we are going to see what kind of pair Cash has pretty soon….
Hughes will be better than Joba.
mel,
I am embarassed to tell you. Is this about my earlier comment saying the Lakers suck?
Hughes reminds me of Scott Baker, just better…but still, Johan isn’t worth our young talent that we have been saving up for years and years.
i would feel badly if we traded “the franchise”