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Hughes could put Yankees over the top

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 01, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

As was written here earlier this week, the Red Sox had to get involved with Johan Santana if only to make it hurt for the Yankees.

It would seem they have accomplished that mission by getting the Yankees to put Phil Hughes in the deal. Now the Yankees seem willing to send Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a prospect to Minnesota for Santana.

However … will the Twins and Red Sox squeeze more and try to get the Yankees to include Ian Kennedy? If that becomes a sticking point, the Yankees might have to walk away. As good as Santana is, do you give Minnesota two of the three prospects you worked so hard to sign and develop? Young, talented and inexpensive starting pitchers are the most valuable commodity in baseball.

I believe much of this is inspired by the reality of Andy Pettitte being 90 percent retired. Pettitte decided to delay retirement during the Winter Meetings last season and agreed to the parameters of a deal with the Yankees. Now the Meetings are upon us again and Pettitte is telling teammates he wants to end his career.

Joe Torre worked him hard last November to come back and Andy probably had a good idea that Roger Clemens would join him. Now Torre is in L.A. and Roger seems finally finished. Pettitte is not one of those guys who can half-ass it all winter and show up in February to try and pitch. If he doesn’t have his legs, he doesn’t have his fastball.

There’s not much point in having a 975-run offense if the rotation is Wang, the three kids and Moose. But a rotation of Santana, Wang, two kids and Moose has a chance.

As I wrote a few days ago, Santana said back on July 4 how much he enjoyed pitching in New York. By the time the Yankees leave Nashville, they could be fitting him for pinstripes.

A question for a different day is whether this show is being run by Hank Steinbrenner or Brian Cashman.

For the better part of two years, Cashman has been working to build an organization that would avoid just the kind of move the Yankees are about to make. Cashman succeeded in building a player development powerhouse. But just when it looked like the Yankees were going to change, Hughes could be on the way out. And while Joba Chamberlain became a cult hero, a lot of people believe Hughes is still a better prospect and has a better makeup for New York.

And do not underestimate the loss of Melky Cabrera, another player the organizational guys were proud of developing. How many times did we hear Torre say last year how much the team needed his energy? You have to give up talent to get talent and the Yankees will be giving up a lot.

But, as always, their business model demands it.

————

Thanks to everybody who posted on Friday. Last I saw there were close to 1,600 comments. It speaks to the passion of Yankee fans, even in late November. I’ll be back to work on Sunday night when I travel to Nashville.

————

If you haven’t yet, change your bookmark to http://yankees.lhblogs.com/ The old link gets screwy sometimes. The new one puts you directly into the new server.

Comments

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1,190 Responses to “Hughes could put Yankees over the top”

  1. YankeesLuv December 1st, 2007 at 12:09 am

    NO NO NO!!! Do Not Give Up Hughes! I’m going to be so angry with the Yankees if they do this.

  2. THU December 1st, 2007 at 12:11 am

    Don’t Trade Hughes!

  3. Theo December 1st, 2007 at 12:13 am

    Played Cash like a violin

  4. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:17 am

    oh no:(

  5. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:20 am

    Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, Mussina

    vs.

    Wang, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Mussina

    vs.

    Santana, Wang, Joba, Hughes, Mussina

    How great would it be to get Santana for a Kennedy package… I really dont want ot trade Hughes… No way Twins would have taken that crap package Boston was putting out there.. Crisp.. come on..

  6. Andrew December 1st, 2007 at 12:21 am

    Big Mistake!

    Hughes 15 wins next year Santana 18.

    Johnny Damon every day center fielder or adding another aging center fielder (Aaron Rowand)

    I cant belive Cashman is going to do this.

  7. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:21 am

    Pete- Would you pull the trigger on this deal?

  8. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 12:22 am

    Why is everyone so scared of youth? *shrugs*’

    Even Joe DiMaggio was a rookie once.

    Anyway. I imagine we’ll be just as active on 1 January. At least, we’d better be =P

    I do not see Cash trading BOTH Hughes and Kennedy for Santana. Not worth it. At all. If he did do that, I would be tempted to change my handle to ‘Fire Cashman’, but that wouldn’t be too optimistic ;)

  9. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:23 am

    I dont think Cash wants to make this deal. I bet it is all Hank!

  10. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:24 am

    They are NOT getting Santana for less than Hughes, MElky, B-prospect

    Did you not read that Pete said they might ask for BOTH Hughes and Kennedy (of course they arent going to get that). There is no chance they get Johan and keep Phil. Sorry.

  11. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:24 am

    Then dont make the trade

  12. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:25 am

    go to the 1600 post blog (read what the beloved SJ and Bobcat have to say) and educate yourselves. we are over the “hughes is better than santana” ridiculousness.

  13. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:26 am

    No one says Hughes is better than Santana.. duh

    I have never heard or seen 1 person say that

  14. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 12:26 am

    Hank is once again proving to be a hack. First the Torre situation, then A-Rod, now this. This won’t be the first time we have gotten a proven pitcher that seems to some gas left. Just like Pavano, Kevin Brown, Javy Vazquez, Randy Johnson, etc. It’s just frustrating to see Hank obviously overpowering Cash, after his dad had promised Cash all that power a couple years ago. It’s a tough call, because Santana could end up like the rest of them, but he also reminds me of Pedro at his point of his career when he got traded to Boston. If that is the case, then you trade anyone for him.

  15. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:28 am

    Scooter, then go read the previous 1600post blog. and if you think santana is better than hughes, then you make the trade. you just said “then dont make the trade”. melky cabrera isnt enough to tip the balance. maybe it wasnt you who said it but there are so many “fans” on the blog acting like getting santana but losing hughes is a disaster.

  16. LCâ„¢ December 1st, 2007 at 12:28 am

    god it really hurts to give up Hughes :( I’m actually hoping the Twins ask for Kennedy too just so the Yankees can turn it down and wait until next year to sign him via free agency lol

  17. ChrisUK December 1st, 2007 at 12:29 am

    I would not trade Hughes for Santana under any circumstances. The Red Sox are clearly only in this ‘race’ to drive up the trade price of Santana, not many other teams could afford his extension. If the Yankees don’t get Santana I can see him staying with the Twins for the final year of his contract and then leaving as a free agent. If the Twins realise this maybe they will back down from demanding Hughes.

  18. J-Dawg December 1st, 2007 at 12:29 am

    I wouldn’t categorize this as Boston getting the best of Cashman. This is just a case of making your rival pay for wanting to add a major star. Teams do it to each other all of the time. You hang in just to add to the price. Cashman probably isn’t going to let the Twins and Red Sox bait him into giving up Hughes and Kennedy both. He’ll just take his time, calmly evaluate everything that is out there, and then he will decide who he would send to the Twins. If the Twins like what they see, then they will be ready to talk and get this thing started.

  19. mel December 1st, 2007 at 12:29 am

    No one said that Hughes is better than Santana. Some of us just think that the deal could be done without Hughes. Impatience is pretty ****ing expensive. AND Boston was NEVER EVER EVER going to give up their blue chippers. The only thing that is even close to redeeming about losing Phil is that there are supposedly scores like him waiting in the wings.

  20. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:30 am

    Dan,

    Santana is not like ANY of the pitchers you mentioned. he is in his prime and the best pitcher in baseball. Hughes appears to be a future all star, but that is no guarantee, and even a perennial all star doesnt equal “the best”.

  21. SPARKY O December 1st, 2007 at 12:31 am

    PETE, WHEN YOU SAY YOUR ON VACATION TAKE IT, YOU DESERVE IT

  22. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 12:31 am

    I know everyone is giddy about perhaps getting Santana. But, I will be very disappointed if the cost is anything more than Kennedy and a couple kids (non mlb starters).

    People vastly underestimate how good Melky is going to be. They also underestimate how good Phil is going to be.

    Finally, if the decision is really Santana’s, Minnesota has very little leverage. This sounds like we’re paying more on the off-chance that Boston wasn’t just being a shill.

    Damon is a LOT than Phil at THIS point in time. But, IMO the cost to our defense, the cost to the “energy” Melky has provided, and the long term cost of not seeing Hughes in pinstripes for the next 15 years is a lot greater than the gain.

  23. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 12:31 am

    I won’t make the Yankees include Kennedy or Melky if they include Cano with Hughes…Deal!? Twins say yes

  24. YankeesLuv December 1st, 2007 at 12:32 am

    I can’t believe the Yankees are going to do this. We give up Hughes for what? We still have to pay him 20-25 million for six years? He’s starting to make Arod look poor, getting paid to work once a week. Look if Hughes is a bust, that’s fine, he’s a cheap bust and we can move on. If Hughes ends up winning 13-15 games, and Santana wins 18, it’s going to be a bad deal. STOP THIS!!! DON’T TRADE HUGHES!

  25. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:32 am

    ChrisUK, until Santana comes out and publicly states “I will only play for the yankees under any circumstances” it is foolish to think he will hit free agency. the twins are going to trade him if they cant resign him. whoever trades for him will only do so with the intent of signing him to an extension.

  26. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:33 am

    I am not saying Hughes is better, I am also not saying it would be a disaster, I am saying it is a mistake.

    I think Hughes will be something special. He will also be much less epensive. HE IS ONLY 21 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!

    I won’t be davastated, but I truly think it is a mistake, and in 2 years when Hughes is dominating the league and is costing next to nothing we will all regret this…

  27. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:33 am

    YankeesLuv – “WE” arent paying him anything. The billionaire owners are paying him. Why do you care how much the Yanks spend?

  28. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:34 am

    Scooter, how nice of your concern for the Yankee owners’ finances. Maybe if they dont pay Johan they can buy another vacation home and a yacht.

  29. mel December 1st, 2007 at 12:34 am

    And when we face Phil, I hope it’s Santana and it’s a pitcher’s duel. I’d hate for Phil to have to face off against Joba.

  30. Patrick December 1st, 2007 at 12:35 am

    While in almost every situation I am firmly in the “Don’t trade Hughes” camp, if there is one exception, it is for the best pitcher in baseball. You don’t get guys like Santana for free, and I for one feel that this is a fair price. Hughes has the makeup, but everyone knows that it’s a bit of a crapshoot for young pitchers to reach their full potential without major injury. For the next five or so years, Santana is as close to a guarantee of Cy Young performance as your going to get. I don’t know that I’m all that concerned about the loss of Melky. His defense, age, and salary are nice, but his line this year was .273/.327/.391. He’s replaceable.

  31. J-Dawg December 1st, 2007 at 12:35 am

    The amount of wins between Hughes and Santana may be something that many of us keep an eye on, but we all know when Santana’s performance will be under the biggest microscope and evaluation. I’ll give you a hint, it’s the month between September and November. That is why the Yankees are getting him, and that is when they could REALLY be reaping the benefits of a possible trade. I fully believe that given the opportunity, Johan can really deliver in the postseason and spearhead the road to a championship.

  32. SavePhilHughes December 1st, 2007 at 12:35 am

    can’t believe this is happening.

  33. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:36 am

    Also, Scooter… it doesnt make much sense to keep a “maybe” instead of the “best pitcher in baseball” who is a lefty and in his prime.

    you can have a $100 bill right now, or you can have a scratch ticket that might be $100, might be $50, or might be $1. ill take the $100 bill.

  34. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:37 am

    SavePhilHughes – I cant believe you are serious

  35. whoa December 1st, 2007 at 12:38 am

    I don’t buy the Petitte thing, and here’s why:

    At this point, Haren is just as good if not better than Pettitte. The fact that Pettitte is LH means nothing because he is more effective against RH hitters.

    This is merely about Hank’s fear and ego. Nothing else.w

  36. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 12:38 am

    Boston Dave,

    I totally agree with you. We need to stop worrying about what it will cost in terms of money for the Yankees. People have been saying that for the past few days now. We are not Royals. If the Yankees couldn’t afford to pay Johan the money, they wouldn’t be talking with MN, they’d be talking with Oakland.

    Also, it’s be stated here many times already, Johan is in his prime, 29 at the start of the season. Beckett will be 28 this year. While I would love it for Phil to become a star for us, I don’t know if he actually will be. Johan is already “THE” star.

  37. Yankee Jay December 1st, 2007 at 12:38 am

    Say it aint so Hankenstien!!!!! The Red Sox are bluffing. There’s no way that Theo is going to spend $25 million a year + luxury tax + Restructure Beckett’s deal. I can’t believe that they are suckering the Yanks into this. Let’s just hope that the Yanks are bluffing with the talk of Hughes, but as we all know this is a typical Yankee move. although at least Santana is still in his prime (hopefully)

  38. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 12:39 am

    Boston Dave-
    I never compared the pitchers to Santana, I compared the situation. They get pitchers who have had good, All-Star seasons, and then they come to NY and blow. If Santana comes to NY he probably succeeds. But if he doesn’t then they gave up a stud for them that the fans have invested in. It would just be a lot more enjoyable to see them win with guys we have invested in than just the flavor of the month.

  39. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 12:39 am

    Boston Dave-
    I never compared the pitchers to Santana, I compared the situation. They get pitchers who have had good, All-Star seasons, and then they come to NY and blow. If Santana comes to NY he probably succeeds. But if he doesn’t then they gave up a stud for them that the fans have invested in. It would just be a lot more enjoyable to see them win with guys we have invested in than just the flavor of the month. Not to say that Santana couldn’t be the next Pedro, but you never know what Hughes could be.

  40. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 am

    No one has learned there lesson. Stop trading young good talent for older superstars. It hasnt gotten us anywhwere. Give the kids a chance.

  41. YankeesLuv December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 am

    Boston Dave

    I don’t care what they pay him, it’s not about that. My point is we have to give up Hughes for a guy we have to pay free agent money to anyways.

  42. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 am

    I bet Hank Steinbrenner is the one pushing hard for Santana. Putting Hughes into the trade is just dumb.

  43. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:41 am

    Dan – agreed. But not one of the pitchers you listed has Santanas resume or skills. Every trade, every move is a gamble. Phil Hughes is a gamble. Santana is a gamble. But Santana is the safest gamble in MLB as far as starting pitching.

  44. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:42 am

    YankeeLuv:

    You said “We still have to pay him 20-25 million for six years? He’s starting to make Arod look poor, getting paid to work once a week.”

    Dont tell me the money had nothing to do with your point.

  45. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:43 am

    ohhhh Andy!!!!

  46. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:43 am

    No one is allowed to write anything without Boston Daves approval…

  47. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:44 am

    Is Homer Bailey for Santana a bad trade for the Reds?

    Phil Hughes is not in the HOF yet. He is one of many TOP pitching prospects. Of which only a % will see the All Star Game once. Probably none of which will be as good as Santana.

  48. Bryant December 1st, 2007 at 12:44 am

    I wonder what this blog would have looked like when the Yanks traded Soriano for A-Rod?

  49. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:44 am

    Save Phil Hughes!

  50. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:45 am

    Save Soriano! haha

  51. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:46 am

    Scooter, you’re right. so put your money where your misguided mouth is. ill take santana. you get hughes. whoever has more wins and a better ERA over the next 4 seasons wins the bet. how much you in for tough guy?

  52. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 12:46 am

    Why do we keep assuming that its Little Stein? The purpose of a farm system is to give your team options — both from within and without. Cashman had to know this day would come when he might have to give up a “stud” prospect for “the stud.”

    While I would love to get Santana for a bag of baseballs and bucket of seeds, it don’t think Minny would go for it. Remember that the Sox gave up Anibal Sanchez AND Hanley Ramirez for Beckett (they thought that lowell was the “throw it”) Ramirez is arguably the best short stop in the NL — sorry j-roll.

  53. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:46 am

    And we have the same payroll and we both get to build our own teams. i win…

  54. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 12:48 am

    BD-
    Correct. I’m just worried we are going to have to watch A-Rod for the next 10 friggin years without any championships. I always wondered what it was like to have a guy like Reggie on the team that the fans didn’t like. No matter how many home runs he hits (playoffs or not), he will always just look like a Hollywood villian to me.

  55. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:48 am

    This isnt just 2008 David.. tough guy

  56. SavePhilHughes December 1st, 2007 at 12:48 am

    Boston Dave-Believe it.

  57. Yankee Jay December 1st, 2007 at 12:48 am

    Am I the only one that thinks it’s CRAZY to expect Damon to play center and Godzilla to play left on an everyday basis? Both of those guys had major leg/foot problems last year, not to mention the points Pete brought up about Melky’s energy last season. I think that the Yanks need a backup plan, or at least a solid young 4th outfielder (do we have one of those laying around?)

  58. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 12:50 am

    I actually would hate to have Damon in CF if it were my team…

  59. fleas December 1st, 2007 at 12:50 am

    Are you all the same people that thought the Yankees are better with Torre?

    Heh… Hughes/Santana no-brainer!

  60. Theo December 1st, 2007 at 12:51 am

    It’s all coming together now. I can flip Lester, Lowrie and a few Pearl Jam tickets to Minny for Hughes.

  61. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 12:51 am

    The Yankees don’t need Santana. That’s the point.

  62. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:51 am

    SavePhil – we will see. do you really think Hughes will be the best pitcher in the entire game someday? I cant say he wont…. but he would have to be in order to equal Santana.

  63. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Free Johan!

  64. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 12:52 am

    Yankee Jay

    I think the yanks will keep damon in left field and the DHING job will be for god(my knee hurts)zilla. Is it me, or was the reason we had to get rid of bernie because this rowand guy was came to new york for a three game series and caught everything that was hit in the outfield?

  65. YankeesLuv December 1st, 2007 at 12:53 am

    Boston Dave

    ??? who cares.
    The MAIN point is I don’t think the Yankees should trade Hughes.

  66. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:53 am

    jay –

    do you believe all these people who really think hughes is more valuable than johan?

  67. Yankee Jay December 1st, 2007 at 12:53 am

    fleas,

    I think the point is Hughes + Starting Johnny Damon everyday in center + $150 million / Santana

  68. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 12:54 am

    take your chances with the kids. Homegrown kids!

  69. Mike R. December 1st, 2007 at 12:56 am

    I think that the real question that nobody is asking is…What will Johan look like without that goatee?

  70. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:56 am

    YankeesLuv -

    good thing you arent running the Boston Celtics.

    ill tell you what… ill sell you a scratch ticket for $1000. at best you might win $1000, or you might win $500, or you might win $50.

    good logic there!

  71. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 12:57 am

    If Minnesota isn’t so impressed with Melky…why include him in a trade?

    This really smells of the bad old days when we sent our youth for “all stars”.

    Hughes/Santana straight up? You have a close call.

    Hughes plus Melky plus ???? for Santana? Not even a close call. Bad old days…here we come.

  72. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 12:59 am

    E-Roc-
    While I don’t want to see Hughes go, they most certainly need a guy like Santana. To win the WS, you need a couple guys who will win when necessary. Wang has proven he has no intention to do this. they have been bumped in the 1st round the past 3 years, and no team that has a dominant #1 loses in the 1st round (that I can remember). So Santana will at least give them that (you have to assume)

  73. The Bronx Stop December 1st, 2007 at 1:02 am

    If we give up Phil Hughes I will frown for 22 days straight…

  74. LCâ„¢ December 1st, 2007 at 1:02 am

    I remember reading an article the other day that when you trade for someone like Santana, it’s supposed to hurt. Do you guys honestly think the Twins are going to take anything less than Hughes and Melky? Even if the Red Sox didn’t try to drive up the price, I still don’t think Kennedy, Melky, and a minor leaguer would have gotten it done.

  75. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 1:03 am

    I think Joba can be our #1. Maybe not in 08, but in 09

  76. Yankee Sean December 1st, 2007 at 1:03 am

    This trade is no good…no good whatsoever. It wasn’t good for hughes but now hughes and kennedy. i swear i am going to be so upset if this trade goes through

  77. Mike R. December 1st, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Dan – I am in favor of this trade so far and am a Santana fan, but the Twins got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs a couple of years back.

  78. Andrew December 1st, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Yea Dan like the White Sox and Cardinals had the last couple of seasons…. People are putting to much into these stupid cliches and pitcher can have that one night/series where they dominate.

  79. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Damn those twins!

  80. Nick in SF December 1st, 2007 at 1:06 am

    Buster Olney is now reporting that the Twins are demanding that Bobcat be included in any package for Johan Santana. But I’m only reading what people want me to read.

  81. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 1:06 am

    Dad, that’s a good point. If they want phil and melky for johan, who is going be our mike lowell? I don’t like the idea of a hershel walker trade here. If they put a gun to my head, I’d probably do it, but I haven’t seen the barrel just yet.

  82. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 1:08 am

    ESPN.com removed the story from its headlines! Maybe a quick rumor that fades fast!!!

  83. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 1:08 am

    I will have NONE of the frowning. It is hardly optimistic.

    It’s not like we’re trading Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera for Daniel Cabrera.

    Now, THAT would be controversial.

  84. YankeesLuv December 1st, 2007 at 1:10 am

    Boston Dave

    the nba? scratch tickets? umm okay, you have me confused lol.
    Anyways I hope the Yankees keep Hughes.
    Goodnight everyone. :)

  85. LCâ„¢ December 1st, 2007 at 1:10 am

    Yankee Sean,
    The Yankees will NOT trade both Kennedy and Hughes, you can bet on that.

  86. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 1:11 am

    Pete really needs to do a poll about this…

  87. Yankee Jay December 1st, 2007 at 1:14 am

    So now the Sox go to Billy Beane and get Dan Haren for the same package and save $35 million over the next two years. Beckett, Haren, Dice-K, Schilling vrs. Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy. Not so sure I like that matchup as a Yanks fan.

  88. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 1:16 am

    Santana would only win one game in a series if it doesn’t go the full length. You still need the other pitchers to step up.

  89. ScooterMcGavin December 1st, 2007 at 1:16 am

    Goodnight NY!!!!!!! Time for bed

  90. pat December 1st, 2007 at 1:18 am

    Yankee Jay

    Would you like it better if it was: Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling vrs. Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy?

  91. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:19 am

    Losing a projected starting center fielder, along with a projected starting pitcher with a very high ceiling, and even more players…. tough to like the deal.

    I think we have a playoff team NOW. With BP help, maybe Eastern champs. If EITHER Hughes/Jobba/Kennedy become an ACE, 27th championship.

    Why mess with a very strong team? Use your chips to build the bullpen.

  92. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:19 am

    Scooter, scratch the poll… i think he needs an IQ test for you.

  93. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:20 am

    or a poll for GMs or scouts that actually know what they are talking about.

  94. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:21 am

    Ladies and Gentleman Readers of Lohud Yankees Blog,

    Typically I do not go on epic rants here because it’s not my place to do so, this is Pete’s blog and I try to keep my comments in context most of the time to Pete’s posts.

    I have read comments for a while since Pete started posting. I’ve tried to once in a while contribute something meaningful, like an update from Yankee Stadium, etc. I enjoy this place a lot.

    Over the last few days, I realized something. Some of you are completely insane, yes, insane. You expect the world, but do not expect to give anything in return. You complain and moan about the team’s management. You scream about how stupid this is or how that person got fleeced, etc. I may not be an expert, but I do consider myself a fan of baseball as well as the Yankees and do my best to stay as objective as possible when reading what I read and then making my mind up. But never have I seen so many absolutely spoiled rotten brats find a place to complain about what could be the biggest addition to this team’s pitching in years.

    Stop

    Think

    This is not a broken down Randy Johnson, an old Kevin Brown or even a hopeful Jared Weaver.

    This is Johan Santana, the best pitcher in baseball. Period. Do not try to talk to me about alleged “declining numbers” and the like. Take your Bill James book and cry me a river. This is a guy who has hall of fame potential who is under 30 years old. A person who can finally be the “Ace” on this “built to win now” team.

    Be very honest with yourselves, right now as it stands the positional players are not built for the future. While improvement in scouting and draft picks has given birth to a strong ready to go group of youngsters, the positional players for the most part are in their “prime” years or have since passed this point. This is not a win in 2010 team, this is a win now team. If you don’t understand that concept look at the 2001 Diamondbacks. A win now team in the best description.

    Phil Hughes is an enormous talent, a gem. But it takes a gem to get the whole bank sometimes, this is what this organization is doing. They are going for broke and assuming that with a rotation anchored by Johan Santana, they are capable for the next few years to stay within prime contention and compete with the Red Sox.

    Next, there is a new place opening across the street from Yankee Stadium, you might hav e heard of it, it’s called Yankee Stadium. By putting a team on the field that includes some of the absolute premier players in the game, the Yankees simply increase their organizational worth. They become richer, they invest more into the team and keep you selfish crybabies happy with your 300M players and a chance to watch a game in October. The move makes absolute sense for the NOW. The Yankees are a business and run themselves as such. They are making moves they think are needed to progress as a team. That includes everything from the hiring of Joe Girardi to the potential acquisition of Johan Santana. They are making strides to win, to remain profitable and create talent for the future.

    Consider how much was spent on Andrew Brackman. He hasn’t touched a ball in play yet and was given $3.35M dollars.

    Consider the future of Joba Chamberlain.

    Stop underestimating the greatness that awaits the next few years. If Phil is gone, I am disappointed, however I will not go on a “Save Phil” campaign across the US. It’s simply business, it’s not personal. Relax. Take a breath You have a chance to see a 2 time Cy Young winner with a devastating change, nasty slider and mean fastball toe the rubber in pinstripes. You have the organization capable of paying for this player along with all the other people on this team.

    Stop freaking out.

    I am sure Phil will have a good career, and I wish him all the luck, but to me the only thing I have to say is “FREE SANTANA.”

    Thanks,

    jay destro – voice of reason, sarcasm and guy from jersey who pays a lot for his season tickets and trips to tampa. Also the same age as Johan Santana.

  95. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:22 am

    Use of chips:

    1. Build bullpen
    2. Get infield position prospects
    3. Get catcher prospects
    4. Replace atarters/bullpen as injuries/ineffectivenss occurs.

    I understand we have a lot of chips now…. but these needs are substantial.

  96. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:22 am

    DadInIowa… Santana is already on top of Hughes’s ceiling. Losing Hughes sucks, but at best he is still never going to be as good as Johan.

  97. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:23 am

    thank you jay… unfortunately, sensibility and reason is not on the menu for many in here tonight.

  98. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 1:24 am

    Nick in SF: NOOO! we can’t trade bobcat!

  99. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:26 am

    Boston….. you are right. But, Hughes is worth a bit more than the two draft choices in 2009. Why pay so much more than you have to? You’re losing your starting center fielder too. You’re also losing other “chips”.

    It seems like a “win now” strategy. That’s what has killed us in the past.

  100. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:26 am

    Boston Dave:

    Unfortunately people are blinded by pinstripes. The concept of the “home grown true Yankee” phenomenon.

    I don’t drink the koolaid… i think about what makes sense. This does make sense.

  101. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 am

    It’s late and I have an appointment with Beowulf 3D tomorrow, which may or may not be kept depending on the state of my bum (falling on ice actually hurts quite a bit).

    g’nite.

    I expect one of y’all to inform me via blog or email if any breaking news occurs.

    Cheers.

  102. Mike R. December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 am

    Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 1:24 am

    Nick in SF: NOOO! we can’t trade bobcat!

    Andrea:

    Don’t think like a fan. Think like a GM.

  103. Yaya December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 am

    What I don’t understand is exactly what you people are expecting…

    Do you honestly believe the Yankees are adding Hughes because they believe the Red Sox have a better package or will put forward a better package for Santana?

    Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the Twins not wanting to accept a deal of Kennedy and Cabrera. The Twins simply decided only to do a trade they want, or drag it out all the way to the trade deadline if they had to, and the Yankees decided that is something they don’t want to happen.

    Not only would the contenders for Santana increase at the trade deadline, other situations such as injury, under-performance(i.e. prospect value decreasing,) or simply not contending in the playoff race may occur…That’s what could and would happen if this drags on longer and longer.

    I agree we should hold out as long as we can when it comes to adding Hughes in a package for Santana, but realistically, we aren’t part of the negotiations, and everyone knew this is what it would take all along.

    Santana isn’t just an all-star. Some of you even say “this is like the old days”…Are You kidding? Santana is going to be in the Hall of Fame some day.

    Simply put, it’s a deal you have to do.

    As far as the other options, anyone is going to ask for Hughes when it comes to their ace. Especially Billy Beane. That’s just the way it is going to be in these trade discussions.

    And many of you do not want to sign Rowand or Jones, stating, “let the kids get a try.” The Yankees know their players better than anyone and if they felt Gardner was the goods or Jackson was ready, they would go that route.

    Frankly, with Santana in the rotation and Rowand/Jones/Cameron in the line-up and centerfield, our team is better for the next 3 to 4 years both offensively, defensively, and pitching wise.

    It gives us the best opportunity to win a championship without totally crippling our future. Santana is turning 29 and Hughes, all be it a stud prospect, is one of many (Joba, Kennedy, Horne, Sanchez) in the Yankees farm system. They may not be as highly touted as Hughes, but they still are considered very good prospects who can be used for the Yankees or as trade pieces to get another accomplished player. The Yankees can also afford Santana and have never worried about money per year, but more as to the amount of years in the contract, so this reasoning also doesn’t make much sense in this case. This deal doesn’t restrict the Yankees in making other deals or getting younger.

    Once again, it is a deal you have to do.

  104. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:32 am

    Buster Olney is now reporting that the Twins are demanding that Bobcat be included in any package for Johan Santana.

    I am not giving up Hughes and bobcat… Andrea beat me to the punch… nice!

  105. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:33 am

    Iowa – if we knew for certain the Santana would hit free agency then absolutely. i just cant see the Twins letting him go for nothing. I hate giving up Hughes…. just that Santana is as good as there is out there. You are trading a ‘maybe, hopefully’… for a ‘definitely’.

    I love Melky as well but he can be replaced fairly easily. That sounds crappy but its true. If they have to throw in some additional top prospects… then yes you have to think about it longer. In the end, Santana gives them the best chance to win a World Series (or two or three) over the next few years.

  106. Sandman December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    jay destro-

    You can’t be anymore right.I would rather trade Ian Kennedy but hey lets get this ball rolling.Santana,Wang,Pettitte.Joba,Kennedy.Sounds awesome.

  107. ML December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    DadinIowa,

    Why do you like Melky so much? He hit 273 last year! I enjoy his energy as much as the any other yanks fan, but if this deal happens he is going to be in it.

    The real debate is about Hughes, not Melky.

  108. Al December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    The Yankees need to explore other avenues… see what it takes to get Haren or Dontrelle. If it means giving up someone other than Hughes or Joba do it.

    You got to give to get. I’d rather pass on Santana and roll the dice. If 2008 is a step back so be it… that rotation for 2009 and beyond is pretty nice.

  109. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    BTW i am always interested in talking yanks with people aside from here. If you’d like to chat on AIM sometime feel free to email me at jaydestro at gmail dot com.

  110. B. Stanley December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    Can’t the Yankees contact Santana? He’s the one with all the power in this situation. Tell him what they’ll pay him if he declines being traded for Hughes and insists being traded for Kennedy. Being a Yankee, wouldn’t he want what’s best for the team? Wouldn’t he want to be in a rotation that includes Hughes instead of Kennedy?

  111. JMZ December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am

    jay destro — amazing, amazing post. As far as I’m concerned this thread can be locked.

  112. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 1:35 am

    Mike R: I don’t know. I just can’t. He’s too homegrown. He’s our Bobcat!

  113. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 1:36 am

    Beowolf in 3d– was awesome

  114. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:37 am

    B. Stanley

    That’s called TAMPERING and it’s illegal.

  115. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:38 am

    first – we physically cant go with all three kids in the rotation because of innings… Joba pitched half the year out of the pen, his arm strength will not allow him to get 200 innings.

    Hughes is coming off an injury, his stamina had to have taken a setback.

    Kennedy could probably give us the most out of the bunch…

    If pettite does not sign you are now left with Mussina to round out the rotation… The yankees are not going to have 200m payroll and have one guy in the rotation capable of 200 innings (Wang)…

    Do you remeber last year when John Maine hit the wall for the mets, we cant have that happen to 2/3 ‘s of the rotation.

    that being said, if they demand Hughes and Kennedy we are stuck. I DO NOT TRADE 2 OF THE TRINITY…

    If it is Melky, Hughes and another prospect – i have to do it…

    Mariano is not getting any younger, I want to see him get another chance to win a ring.

  116. Nick in SF December 1st, 2007 at 1:40 am

    And another thing. If Melky is part of the package, do the Twins give me anything for my “Got Melky?” t-shirt? Only worn 6 or 7 times!

  117. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 1:40 am

    El Comaduce: that’s what I’m saying. I just can’t do it. Hughes is one thing. But Bobcat? It’s just too much!

  118. William December 1st, 2007 at 1:41 am

    I rather keep the 3 rookies. Its more fun rooting for them anyway. I miss nick johnson!

  119. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:41 am

    We can replace Melky pretty easy, dont have to spend alot of money. Get a big fielding CF, we can carry a weak bat in center. I dont want to see damon there…

    I am not down on damon offensively, he is going to have a big year for us this year..

  120. dTrain December 1st, 2007 at 1:43 am

    Dontrelle Willis isn’t very good. He dominates lefties still but righties absolutely crush him. He is best off sticking in the NL.

  121. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:43 am

    William – we physically cant start these 3 rooks in the rotation, they physically cant give us the innings. You are going to be looking a Kei Igawa again – do you want that???

    I dont want to spend money or prospects on a crappy starter…

  122. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 1:44 am

    Anyone know what Santana’s record is against teams like Boston, Cleveland or Angels?

    I always felt that Santana dominates most of the average teams but can’t do the same job against the big guys.

  123. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:44 am

    I agree on the Dtrain – i am uber weary of anyone who pitches in the NL coming to the AL

  124. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:47 am

    ok guys, my wife is gonna kill me for staying up this late, we have a bunch of crap to do tomorrow, and sunday we are going for new tattoos.

    good night, be good, and enjoy some xanax like i did, that’s why im not worried.

  125. Yankee Jay December 1st, 2007 at 1:49 am

    Hey, anyone notice that we don’t have a bullpen?

  126. Mazun December 1st, 2007 at 1:49 am

    If Hank does this deal then he will be taking on the same philosophy his father did. Pitchers are far more unpredictable than hitters. Giving a pitcher 23 million a year is maybe something the Yankees can afford…. if he were a free agent. Giving up these kids just to sign a Boras-type contract like this is what the Yankees need to not be about anymore. The George Steinbrenner Doctrine has expired. It’s time for Hank to differentiate himself from his father. Keep the kids, build for the future.(I also miss Nick Johnson)

    …and besides, you just CANT split up Melky and Cano

  127. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:50 am

    Jay,

    Just make sure they get Santana’s eyebrows right on the tattoo.

  128. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:53 am

    you can see his career breakdown vs team at the bottom:
    http://www.baseball-reference......038;year=c

    Detroit OWNED him last year, i think he was like 0-5 – but the twins suck

  129. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 1:54 am

    mel:

    actually im finishing my sleeve on my right arm

    i’ll link some pics eventually

  130. Clare December 1st, 2007 at 1:55 am

    Peter,

    Your comment at the end of the last thread suggests that Bobcat has some obligation to let you know who he is. I disagree. You run a public blog. How many people do you seek to identify? The ones who you find threatening, perhaps?

    I’m sure you realize that most of the traffic during your vacation has been generated by Bobcat. Despite the fact that you often berate commenters here as idiots, we’re not. We are able to assess for ourselves the credibility of anonymous posters on a public blog. If you want to be “responsible,” institute registation.

  131. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:56 am

    from a numeric prediction standpoint, this bullpen with wang, mussina, joba, hughes and kennedy would be a disaster….

  132. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:56 am

    As I said before, a straight up trade Santana for Hughes is a close call. Adding your starting center fielder (young, popular, and perhaps with a good future) and other players is not even a close call.

    We have other pressing needs (eg. bullpen, young infield and catching prospects) that we can and should use our chips for.

    Creating another opening where we have ONE of just TWO of our position players under 30+ is going back to the old days.

    The cost of this deal is just too high.

  133. dTrain December 1st, 2007 at 1:57 am

    I think it was the Indians (and Sabathia) who owned him

  134. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 1:57 am

    Pete might just be curious, you cant blame him for asking… it is not like he said STOP POSTING

  135. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:00 am

    jay,

    What’s a sleeve?

    Also, don’t forget the goatee. Actually, no need. “Tans” will have to shave it anyway.

    :cry: Phil couldn’t grow hair on his face if he tried.

  136. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:01 am

    a straight up trade Santana for Hughes is a close call

    you could swap any GM in baseball into the Cashmans slot and every single one makes that trade…

    Johan is the best pitcher in baseball over the last 5 years. He had a bad season by his standards and he still was better than most aces…

    He is not even 30 years old yet, and he is a lefty….

  137. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 2:05 am

    I still think the Yankees should keep Hughes.

  138. Make The Right Trade December 1st, 2007 at 2:05 am

    Ataboy, Cashman! That’s what you are supposed to do with prospects! Trade ‘em for known entities. Next, let’s flip Joba for Bedard and we could be all set.

    Sell high, folks! We could have the best rotation in the game by the end of the meetings.

    Prospects…pish!

    Remember the great Mark Hutton and Domingo Jean…heh heh…

    With all due respect for Phil Hughes, he’s a number 3 at best. You’ll see. And Joba? He’s an injury–a BIG injury–waiting to happen. They were so smart this year, showcasing him in short spurts.

  139. Clare December 1st, 2007 at 2:07 am

    El C.

    Right, Bobcat said he wasn’t asked to stop posting. But he did get the message that what he was doing was inappropriate. He characterized the email as “who are you and what are you doing on my blog”. My hunch, and obviously I might be wrong, was that Peter’s comment was an attempt at backtracking, after Bobcat indicated that he wasn’t going to post anymore.

    I like Bobcat’s posts. And I love Peter’s blog, however Peter’s attitude towards us (at least those of us who don’t always agree with him) does annoy me at times.

  140. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:08 am

    i would not go as far as to call Hughes a 3… He could very well be an ace but not for a couple years…

    I do remember domingo jean, did we get him in the Melido Perez, bob wickman trade???? Wickman was my favorite pitcher as a kid.

  141. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:10 am

    i stand corrected, i only caught the “who are u” part… Bobcat is responsible for over 1g hits in the past 3 days probably….

  142. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 2:12 am

    I can’t believe there has this been this many posts without any mention of ARod…

  143. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:13 am

    A-who?

  144. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 2:14 am

    How soon they forget.

  145. Tyu December 1st, 2007 at 2:15 am

    Isn’t it awesome when a sub 3.35 ERA is a bad year for someone?

  146. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 2:15 am

    did someone say hughes for santana straight up is a close call? thats funny.

  147. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:16 am

    i cant believe we might sign the best pitcher in baseball, as well as the best position player…. Glad to be a yankee

  148. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:19 am

    I can’t believe you idoits that think the Yankees shouldn’t trade for the best pitcher in baseball. You have to give to get. Hughes is far from a sure thing. If the trade goes as suggested Damon moves to center and Brett Gardner becomes the fourth outfielder until AJax is ready. A rotation of Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, Mussina is one of the best in the bigs, especially with the offensive prowise that the Yankees have. Plus as a bonus imagine if Pettitte comes back. The Yankees can’t win a WS without a bonafide ACE. Hughes will be missed but Santana will make us all easily forget about him. Another thing everyone has to remember is that a pitche by the name of Alan Horne is getting close to the bigs. The Yankees’ farm system will still have incredible depth, and the big league team will be ready to win a Championship. All of you uneducated morons need to do your research before you post some of the nonsense that you do.

  149. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:20 am

    Tyu, he also plays in a dome, he had a 2.6 on grass last year…

  150. james December 1st, 2007 at 2:20 am

    you know what I pass. I want Melkey in cf I want Hughes on the untouchable list more than I want Joba on it. see if we can get Haren for Kennedy, Horne and Jackson

  151. Tyu December 1st, 2007 at 2:21 am

    We have the highest paid (annually) 3B, SS, DH, C, and CL in all of baseball.

    And we may now get the highest paid SP too.

    And is Abreu the highest annually paid RF in MLB at 16 million? I know that Vlad makes less.

    And is Farnsworth the highest annually paid non-closer relief pitcher in MLB (he makes 5.5 million in 2008)?

  152. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:21 am

    We may be morons, but how dare you call us uneducated.

  153. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 2:21 am

    I’d like to dedicate this one to Bobcat:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_FZVD5lsAw

  154. Tyu December 1st, 2007 at 2:23 am

    Santana’s WHIP has been under 1.00 in 3 of the last 4 seasons. The guy is a beast. Even in his “down year” this year it was under 1.10. Anybody who points at his 15-13 W-L record to say he isn’t worth it just doesn’t get it. You give him the Yankees lineup behind him and he will win 20+ games easy. He only gave up 4 earned runs or more 4 times all of last year, in his “bad year”.

  155. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:23 am

    wow i just caught the “uneducated”… Lets save our personal insults for the redsox and met fans

  156. ML December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 am

    DadinIowa,

    You still haven’t explained your fascination with Melky. He is young, but only average offensively. And, I know it wasn’t you, but whoever said we can’t take him away from Cano must be joking. That’s a ridiculous reason not to trade an easily replaceable player for the best pitcher in the game.

    Hughes for Santana would be a no brainer for the yanks. If that’s all MN had requested then then press conference would have happened already.

  157. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 am

    Just telling it how it is. Some of the things I have read on this blog have been attrocious. Isn’t the whole idea of baseball to win a WS? Doesn’t Santana give the Yankees the best shot? The Santana haters are acting as if he is 35 years old.

  158. james December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 am

    Yankees control Hughes for the next 5 years or 165 starts vs the twins offer of 33 starts for Santana.

  159. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:26 am

    TYU – you left out the part about pitching in yankee stadium and getting away from the turf

  160. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:27 am

    James,

    The trade for Santana will only happen if there is a contract extention with him. You need to understand the facts before you post.

  161. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:27 am

    Here’s to wishing that Santana garners all the 1st place votes in the Cy Young race. Wang, Doc, Beckett, Bedard, Haren, Sabathia garner votes as well, shutting out Schilling from the final tally.

  162. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:29 am

    There are no Santana haters here.

  163. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 2:30 am

    Shawbler–Try spelling ”atrocious” correctly before calling people ”uneducated morons” and ”idiots.” That just makes you look bad.

  164. ML December 1st, 2007 at 2:30 am

    I love Bobcat as much as everyone here, but I wonder if Pete’s issue with him might be based on his passing along insider info rather than an irrational hatred of his own blog’s readers.

    I know that reporters thrive on leaked info, but I wonder if Pete could get in hot water if he’s seen as condoning insider leaks on the blog.

    Maybe I’m being naive, but Im having trouble following the conspiracy theories on this.

  165. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:32 am

    E-roc,

    Stop it. Stuttering is quite difficult to overcome.

  166. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:32 am

    EROC,

    I’m glad you know how to use spellcheck.

  167. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 2:33 am

    bobcat 6 letters, cashman 7 letters….

    coincidence? i think not

  168. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 2:34 am

    “Stuttering is quite difficult to overcome.”

    Hope you checked this fact before you posted.

  169. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:35 am

    ML,

    The Bobcat/Pete thing seems to be a misunderstanding which can happen with the written word. I can so picture Pete playing the big bad cop role and asking Bobcat, “Who are you and what are you doing on my blog?” with humor.

    I’m just pissed because I didn’t get any such e-mail from Pete.

  170. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:36 am

    #9,

    Of course not, I’m a moron. :cool:

  171. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:38 am

    I’m glad you guys (EROC, Mel, #9) are realizing how stupid you sound.

  172. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 2:38 am

    Theres just something about watching your team develop talent, and then put it on the field. Since I’ve been a Yankee fan I really haven’t had that privilege since 98. This past season was the most fun I’ve had as a fan, and it kills me to see that it might be broken up. Not only to lose Phil Hughes, who even though he isn’t as popular with the fans as Joba Chamberlain is he is a much better pitcher, but to possibly add in Jose Tabata or Austin Jackson is just not sitting right with me. I want a product on the field that I can truly grow with and enjoy, not just watch them develop talent for other teams.

  173. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:39 am

    It is sad that I should consider you fellow Yankee fans.

  174. andrew December 1st, 2007 at 2:39 am

    Hank is a joke like is dad. Don’t trade Hughes! Cashman should tell Hank to stick it. I have been waiting for the day George retires now I have to deal with another joker. For the next couple of decades. Time to start watching the Devil Ray’s

  175. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:41 am

    O.K.

    Keep it coming. What’s next? Fat? Dumb? Idiotic? Maroon?

  176. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 am

    William
    December 1st, 2007 at 1:41 am
    I rather keep the 3 rookies. Its more fun rooting for them anyway. I miss nick johnson!

    _______________________________________________________
    Yeah. The Nationals have missed Nick Johnson for most of the last year and a half. They also missed him in 2004.

  177. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 am

    You are doing just fine. Keep up the good work. EROC shouldn’t you say something about the spelling of “Maroon”?

  178. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 2:44 am

    Also just a quick comment, you guys gotta calm down with this bobcat obsession. Its getting a little creepy. He’ll write when he wants to write, no need to see 100 posts just begging for him to come back.

  179. mel December 1st, 2007 at 2:45 am

    EROC knows that “Maroon” is an inside joke. We laughed about it yesterday because someone was trying to say moron, but typed “Maroon”. We try to keep it light here.

  180. james December 1st, 2007 at 2:46 am

    Shawbler ill post whenever the hell i want to and the twins only control Santana for one year.

  181. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:50 am

    I would like to apologize to EROC, Mel and #9. We are all Yankee fans. I wasn’t calling out a single person in my original post, I was calling out the idea that the Yanks shouldn’t trade Hughes.

  182. tret December 1st, 2007 at 2:51 am

    It’s an odd situation for Yankee fans. It’s easier to defend the team from people who claim they just buy championships when we don’t do moves like this or the A-Rod move.

    However, if the Yankees don’t get Santana, and assuming Pettitte retires, then the rotation would have 3 rookies, all who have innings caps. Something would have to give eventually if they all pitch from day one without injury. This is one of the other reasons why Pettitte’s absence is a big deal. Joba and Hughes are not ready to pitch 200 innings in a season yet.

    Then there’s the Boston dynasty factor. If the Yankees don’t land Santana then Boston will easily be the favorite to win it next year. The Santana move definitely gives the Yankees a much better chance to win it all next year then it would with Hughes/Melky and no Santana.

    However, there is also something nice about watching homegrown players win like Hughes and Melky.

    So I can understand why fans are split on this one.

    But this move isn’t an extreme short-term mentality kind of a move. Santana is young and he will be dominant for another 4 years at least, probably more, assuming he’s healthy. And the Yankees are loaded in the minors with pitching with Horne, Brackman, Whelan, Sanchez, etc. So it’s not like Hughes is the lone pitching star of the farm.

  183. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 2:51 am

    Peter addresses the bobcat blogger.
    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-209290

    I think bobcat is a great blogger on here and I hope he continues to post. Pete probably feels the same way but as described in that comment he just wanted to who he was for validation purposes.

  184. Shawbler December 1st, 2007 at 2:52 am

    James,

    I’m sorry you don’t realize that the trade will not happen unless the Yankees sign Santana to an extention. Keep posting nonsense if you like though.

  185. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 2:56 am

    Shawbler–LOL, you don’t need to apologize. It’s not that serious.

  186. james December 1st, 2007 at 2:59 am

    Everyone understands there would be an extension but its not the Twins to sell its the Yankees to buy. and at the price of 4 or more top prospects and 150 million dollars, including Hughes I pass I call the bluff and i sign him next year when hes a free agent or I live with out him. Shawbler your a moron

  187. mel December 1st, 2007 at 3:02 am

    James,

    I, too, am a little disappointed that Hank’s not a gambler. Maybe he’s a premature (fill in the blank)

  188. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 3:03 am

    James–Chill with the name calling. Agree to disagree. Calling people names isn’t going to help your argument.

  189. james December 1st, 2007 at 3:04 am

    E-ROC mind your own bizness

  190. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:05 am

    Shawbler
    December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 am
    You are doing just fine. Keep up the good work. EROC shouldn’t you say something about the spelling of “Maroon”?

    ___________________________________________________
    Amazing. You trot in here, call people morons, idiots and stupid, and when somebody mentions you spelling a word wrong, you act like the aggrieved party.

  191. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 3:06 am

    The Red Sox don’t really want Santana. They’re trying to drive up the price, which has worked and the Yanks took the bait. Also, Santana wants to play in NY and has a full NTC, so he essentially holds all the cards.

  192. Shdw December 1st, 2007 at 3:07 am

    I don’t know who exactly is pulling the strings on the Yankees right now but if it was my decision. I put Kennedy, Melky, and 2 or MAYBE 3 prospects up for trade with no Hughes or Chamberlain and if the Twins tell me, “no Hughes, No deal!” I say, “Fine, I can take this offer elsewhere and you can try to find a better offer”

  193. mel December 1st, 2007 at 3:08 am

    E-roc is minding his business. His job is to protect every American’s right to freedom of speech. (o.k. jumping off soapbox now)

  194. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 3:12 am

    Does the Yanks have a Rule V pick?

  195. freeto December 1st, 2007 at 3:13 am

    I don’t buy the idea that Boston is driving up the price for Santana. The Twins don’t have to trade Santana right now for a package that they could also get in July. And the package without Hughes is one that they could get in July. Santana having a NTC is nice and all, but the Twins don’t even have to trade him right now even if the yankees were the only team he wanted to pitch for. The Yankees need him for the entire season, and so they have to add Hughes, independent of whatever Boston is doing.

  196. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:34 am

    E-ROC
    December 1st, 2007 at 3:06 am
    The Red Sox don’t really want Santana. They’re trying to drive up the price, which has worked and the Yanks took the bait. Also, Santana wants to play in NY and has a full NTC, so he essentially holds all the cards
    ____________________________________________
    How do you know that Boston didn’t add another piece to the offer for Santana? It didn’t have to be the most commonly mentioned two names, but, another high end minor leaguer or two. I agree that Boston didn’t want Santana as bad as NYY, but, it’s doubtful that they’ll look forward to it over the next few years. The rotation, as it stands right now, just got a Hell of a lot closer than it was this morning. Boston is still banking on a 41-42 year old pitcher, who’s affectiveness dropped sharply this year, and, doesn’t expect to get much better. NYY still has a rather sizable lead in offense, defense is the same, NYY has speed to burn (4th in AL in steals). The only real difference is bullpens, and much of that is assuming Okajima can repeat this years totally unexpected performance. NYY has the makings of an outstanding bullpen with Ohlendorff for the year Vizcaino will most likely be back and Sanchez and Melcacon will be up by June, barring any setbacks. Right now, Melcancon has been outstanding in his recovery and ahead of schedule. Think Chamberlain minus 3 MPH on a bad day. That’s just the tip of the bullpen iceberg on it’s way. NYY is talking to Affeldt and Mahay now, and, there’s a chance to trade for Marte from Pittsburgh. The winter meetings are where the bullpen will be fixed. Don’t count on Damon being the center fielder, though. It’s possible, but, not likely. Matthews may be made available, because the Angels have no desire to go with 6 outfielders and having more than 50 million dollars in outfielders every year. They need to make payroll room for Guerrero’s next payday at the end of the year, along with Anderson. NYY may bring in a rookie like Gardner and let him try center field. He can catch anything. His arm isn’t Cabrera like, but, much better than Damon or Bernie Williams. Only thing left would be maybe 1st base. There are inside options and options like Chris Shelton being released today. They may go after a long relief/spot starter type or have Marquez or hopefully Horne do the job. Bullpen and fine tuning is all that’s left. NYY finished 2 games back of Boston despite the rotation and bullpen disatsers. This against a team that Boston writers claim is one of the best ever. How good does that make NYY?

  197. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:36 am

    E-ROC
    December 1st, 2007 at 3:12 am
    Does the Yanks have a Rule V pick?

    ____________________________________________________
    Depends on whether or not anybody besides Hughes and Cabrera were on the Yanks 40 Man Roster that went in the trade. If not, then NYY has 2 slots available.

  198. kasey December 1st, 2007 at 4:22 am

    man, i hope phil hughes has a MONSTER career wherever he winds up. if he doesn’t, a lot of people are going to look very, very stupid.

    i’ve been a huge proponent of getting santana, but if minnesota demands hughes and kennedy, i think cashman’s got to walk away, not because of the potential talent he’s giving up, but because he has slots to fill in a pretty weak rotation next year, and giving up two starting pitchers for one (albeit an ace) only makes his job harder. hughes OR kennedy plus melky and prospect? sure. hughes AND kennedy? nah.

    but if phil hughes, melky and somebody else gets the job done, do it.

  199. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 4:29 am

    I just don’t see the need for Santana.

  200. 12345 December 1st, 2007 at 4:39 am

    why would u trade hughes and melky who both make no money for santana ($25 million) and then have to sign a center fielder for another $15 million. thats $40 million vs $800k and thats not even counting the luxury tax. i know its not my money but id rather go with the younger players and see what happens.

  201. wea December 1st, 2007 at 4:43 am

    The Yankees are not going to sign a 15 million dollar replacement for Melky. It will probably be Damon with a minor leaguer for bench depth.

  202. kasey December 1st, 2007 at 4:51 am

    “I just don’t see the need for Santana.”

    yeah, wang is clearly the guy you want starting game 1 of a playoff series.

    ask posada if there’s a need for santana. oh, wait, he already commented on the matter.

    i’m inclined to trust the guys who actually play for the team when it comes to assessing needs.

  203. Giuseppe Franco December 1st, 2007 at 5:04 am

    Kasey,

    I guess the “ace” factor will be irrelevant if Santana gets outpitched by the other team’s ace in Game 1.

    Ace vs. ace is always a crapshoot – and it doesn’t matter if you have Koufax or Bob Gibson on your side.

    Ask Johan Santana when he got outpitched by Zito. Ask CC Sabathia. Ask Jake Peavy.

    Great pitchers can always get outpitched (or even rocked) when they face their other team’s best pitcher. That’s why having an “ace” to win in the postseason is an overrated concept.

    I care a lot more about how well this team pitches after their #1 starter. An “ace” can’t win a series all by himself and needs depth behind him to pick up the pieces if he fails.

    They are going to lose two good arms in this deal – not just Hughes. I guarantee the other arm isn’t going to be Chase Wright. It’s going to be another very good arm, probably a starter, in the Yankee system.

  204. der December 1st, 2007 at 5:07 am

    Wait a minute. Are you trying to say that having Santana for Game One gives us the same chance of winning as having Wang start Game One? Haha.

  205. der December 1st, 2007 at 5:10 am

    Come playoff time, the 4-man rotation of

    Santana, Wang, Joba, Moose/Kennedy

    is more likely to be successful than the 4-man rotation of

    Wang, Joba, Hughes, Moose/Kennedy

    Right?

    So what’s your point?

  206. The_Kiid December 1st, 2007 at 5:17 am

    i cant believe so many people are crying about getting the best pitcher in baseball. hughes is measured on potential while santana is measured on track record.

  207. Giuseppe Franco December 1st, 2007 at 5:20 am

    This isn’t about just winning in 2008. It’s about this team winning long term with pitchers they can control for the next 5 years on the cheap.

    This team doesn’t have an unlimited budget. Yes, they have plenty of money to spend but there is a such thing as payroll inflexibility.

    Secondly, that other arm in the deal will most likely be Alan Horne. He is the next best prospect waiting in the wings after the Trinity.

    There are no other starting pitchers likely to make a splash for at least another year and they would be trading away two of their top four arms with one swipe of a pen.

    This team didn’t have the most dominant pitcher in the game when they won 4 rings. What they did have was depth that no other team could match in a postseason series.

  208. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:30 am

    Giuseppe Franco
    December 1st, 2007 at 5:20 am
    This isn’t about just winning in 2008. It’s about this team winning long term with pitchers they can control for the next 5 years on the cheap.

    This team doesn’t have an unlimited budget. Yes, they have plenty of money to spend but there is a such thing as payroll inflexibility.

    Secondly, that other arm in the deal will most likely be Alan Horne. He is the next best prospect waiting in the wings after the Trinity.

    There are no other starting pitchers likely to make a splash for at least another year and they would be trading away two of their top four arms with one swipe of a pen.

    This team didn’t have the most dominant pitcher in the game when they won 4 rings. What they did have was depth that no other team could match in a postseason series.

    __________________________________________________
    The other pitcher would quite likely be Marquez, Melancon or Sanchez. If it goes to Horne, they’ll either pull out of the deal or remove Hughes from it.

  209. Giuseppe Franco December 1st, 2007 at 5:40 am

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that, GreenBeret.

    They can have Marquez. I don’t want Sanchez or Melancon going anywhere. Both of those guys have a pretty good chance of helping out the weak Yankee pen late in 2008.

  210. gargoyle December 1st, 2007 at 6:20 am

    I’m embarrassed to be a Yankees fan. $50 mil tied up into ARod and Santana is obscene. They deserve the scorn and hatred they get around the league.

  211. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 6:32 am

    gargoyle
    December 1st, 2007 at 6:20 am
    I’m embarrassed to be a Yankees fan. $50 mil tied up into ARod and Santana is obscene. They deserve the scorn and hatred they get around the league.

    __________________________________________________
    Guess you’ll just have to go around wearing a brown paper bag over your head, then.

  212. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 6:35 am

    Giuseppe, I wasn’t advocating that they take Melancon or Sanchez. I also would rather it was Marquez. He’s not much of a strikeout pitcher, strictly a contact pitcher, but, still a good one.

  213. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 6:47 am

    I would rather see Marquez and/or Steven White added to the deal intead of Hughes.

  214. Toast December 1st, 2007 at 6:55 am

    If they do this, it will be a sad day in Yankee history. Phil Franchise and Melky for this year’s Hot Free Agent. It’s a refutation of everything the Cashman Era promised. It’s a terrible baseball decision on the merits. It’s just a sad joke.

  215. Scud Missile December 1st, 2007 at 6:59 am

    Absolutely positively do not do this trade. Focus on within. Focus on the Yankees and block out the other teams. Do not put all of our energy into trying to make things hurt for the Red Sox. That is no fun anyways, even if we do win. Most Yankee fans like me want to see the Yankees win the right way. If you outmanuever the Sox on this deal, then they keep their loads of talent and probably trade for a cheaper version of Santana (Haren) or they just have more reserves to bring on a Peavy or a Sabathia shortly thereafter. Let’s not make a trade with a gun to our head.

  216. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 7:08 am

    Scud, you have me in tears with the pleading.

  217. gargoyle December 1st, 2007 at 7:09 am

    GreenBeret7

    You don’t find the money to be reaching the point of the absurd? And we haven’t even gotten bent over to the tune of $60-70 mil for Aaron Rowand yet.

    Santana will fail in NYC because too much will be expected. He’ll get NO slack from the fans because he will be expected to to win – EVERY GAME. What’s the over/under on when Santana starts hearing boos in Yankee Stadium?

  218. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 am

    Anytime the Yankees win, I never find it absurd. Do you have any sort of study that shows Santana failing? Desides pitchers with half the talent and 10 years in age on him.

  219. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 am

    ***Besides**** not desides

  220. jc December 1st, 2007 at 7:22 am

    Look,the best 1-12 pitching staff in the AL according to Kevin Long is the Jays’!And next year Ryan is coming back.The Jays’ new “young” three (Litsch,Marcum,and McGowan) seem more battle tested on a long term basis than the Yankee Young Three.Can you imagine the one -two punch of Doc and Burnett staying healthy all year?Then there are the Sox,they won with their current staff,they don’t really need Santana or Haren.Then come the Yanks,the pitching staff 1-12 presently constructed is not what Toronto’s or Boston’s is right now.If a Haren OR a Santana is added,that balance would shift a little and the Yanks would be a less weaker in the pitching department.Haren is a cheaper AND a wiser solution,but the Yanks seem hellbent on getting Santana.No matter what the solution they need another piece in the starting staff.

  221. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 7:24 am

    Why does everyone think Santana is a lock to do well…People who say Hughes could be a bust are right but you know what so could Santana.

    When Lou Pinella was asked how AROD would do in NY in 2004 he said “there would be no problems he’s the best player in baseball” Now I hear the same talk about Santana…He’s the best pitcher in baseball” He will have his adjustment period. What if it takes a whole season like Josh Beckett, how will you feel about the trade then?

    If the Yankees wind up giving Hughes, Melky and either Tabata/Horne/Jackson then it means Cashman, Steinbrenner et. al got raped by a first time GM. There is no other way to put it.

    I suspect the reason it has not happened yet is that the Yankees know that as well. Until it gets announced I want to believe that the Yankees are standing firm and waiting them out

  222. murphydog December 1st, 2007 at 7:28 am

    A lot of whether Santana gets booed depends on a) his performance, obviously, but just as much depends on b) his personna.

    He’ll have some adjustment issues like everybody else and that should be expected. But who he is will mitigate the boo birds’ zeal. From what I’ve read, he’s not a self absorbed mamma’s boy like a certain $30 mil per year 3d baseman, an obnoxious jerk like a certain 6’10″ lefty pitcher the Yankees used to have and he’s not a scared-of-the-wall RF who got booed when he forgot how to hit for two months.

    Pettitte has bad days and doesn’t get booed, same for Rocket. O’Neill and Jeter have whiffed some days and except for Jeter’s extended cold streak a couple of years ago, he isn’t booed. Po has hit into a mighty share of DPs over the last few years, but he’s now a beloved character. And Giambi did what he did and survived the boo birds because he was a man about what happened.

    IMO Johan would pitch well enough to win the fans over. He isn’t 40 years old with back problems and too many moving parts, a la the Big Unit. But his personality will be the biggest factor.

  223. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 7:30 am

    I think the Yankees should be patient:

    “Dogs are always their most violent right before they give up and submit”

    1) Minn releases reports that Boston has a good deal that they will take, but yet they don’t take it;

    2) The next day SI leaks that the Twins are DEMANDING Hughes in any trade and MLB.com leaks that the Angels are also involved

    Lets see what is released today. Will there be a report that the Sox are considering giving up Elsbury/Bucholz?

  224. vinny-b December 1st, 2007 at 7:30 am

    peter said: “Thanks to everybody who posted on Friday. Last I saw there were close to 1,600 comments. It speaks to the passion of Yankee fans, even in late November. I’ll be back to work on Sunday night when I travel to Nashville”

    basically, you can thank bobcat, for that. Credit, where it is due.

  225. Damien December 1st, 2007 at 7:36 am

    Why dont we just offer IPK & Melky to the A’s and get Haren? Is it not enough?

  226. murphydog December 1st, 2007 at 7:38 am

    Haren is not a cheaper and wiser solution IMO.

    1) The same questions about inability to adjust to NY apply to Haren as much as anyone else. Why is he presumed to be immune to the pressure but Santana would fold?

    2) Haren is not LEFTHANDED and doesn’t have any Cy Youngs far as I know.

    Is it really cheaper and wiser to get the lesser of the two pitchers?

  227. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 7:38 am

    MurphyDog

    Please…his personality will be the srongest factor…stop lying to yourself. Jeter, Pettite don’t get booed b/c they have Yankee WS rings and they did not cost the Yankees a boatload of prospects and 25 million a year.

    If the Yankees give up Hughes, Melky and another good prospect and then a ton of money, Santana will be under the biggest microscope known to man. You thought ESPN was unfair to AROD when they chronicled his lousy 2005 season wait till they get a hold of Santana.

    ESPN will compare every start with Hughes and remind us daily how much we paid when they signed him to an extention. If he get off to a bad start and Hughes pitches well. The fans will boo him

    Personality has nothing to do with it…please don’t tell me you actually believe what you just said

  228. murphydog December 1st, 2007 at 7:39 am

    “Lets see what is released today. Will there be a report that the Sox are considering giving up Elsbury/Bucholz?”

    That rumor was swirling last night, attributed (rightly or wrongly) to Gammons.

  229. mr baseball December 1st, 2007 at 7:43 am

    We fans (well most I believe) are asking for one year…one year to see what hughes can do. I guess this is turning into a “keep santana away from boston at all cost.”

    Here we have a shot at making our own santana for once and we’re blowing it. As most here I watch 95% of all yankee games since 91. With the new direction the yankees have taken getting the kids ready I really haven’t been this excited since 2000. To be honest my interest has waned. Now my bubble is probably going to be shot again. screw santana and let’s see if we can get the deal we want from Oakland.

  230. vrsce December 1st, 2007 at 7:45 am

    Great Trade if it happens.

    Hughes was always going to be in the deal.

    BOBCAT
    Your posts have lifted an already great Blog into the realm of real news. It is better than SI or ESPN.I hope that you and Pete can reach an accommodation. The Yankees still need a center fielder and I’ll bet that you have an idea as to who it will be.

  231. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 7:47 am

    Who else is in the deal besides Hughes and Melky?

  232. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 7:49 am

    Now that I think about it the scrutiny will begin as soon as the proposed trade is made.

    ESPN, SI and Every print jounalist in America will be saying that the Yankees got raped and that the Red Sox are the better run organization (which unfortunately will be true)

    Santana will be under a huge amount of pressure and we’ll hear in the news how he is “pressing” as he tries to fit in with his teamates and the NY media. We will be reminded time and time again how he came from a small market in Minnesota and can’t handle the NY pressure.

  233. kunaldo December 1st, 2007 at 7:53 am

    i cannot believe that so many people are up in arms about giving up a prospect for the best pitcher in baseball(in his prime, not at the tail end of his career, like most of the other signings everyone’s referring to)…….granted, hughes is highly touted, but he hasnt done a damn thing yet…there are so many pitchers that put up dominating minor league numbers and never end up panning out

    and like it or not, the yanks are in “really have to win now” mode….like bobcat said, 08-10 are the prime years to do it, b/c we’ll still have the “old guard” filling out important positions, after that, who knows what happens(god, i cant even bare to think what happens when posada can no longer catch)

  234. Motown Yankees Fan December 1st, 2007 at 7:54 am

    I’ve been reading a bunch of newspaper articles on the net this morning and the only thing that is clear is that nothing is clear. According to some the Yankees have put Hughes on the table, according to others the Twins are demanding it. According to some, Yankees are not bothered by what the Sox have been offering, according to others, Hughes in on the table in direct response to what the Sox are doing. According to some, Hughes’ inclusion gets the deal done, according to others, it may not.

    If it takes Hughes, my hope is that the Twins hold on to Santana, are contending in July and so don’t trade him at the deadline, he becomes a free agent and signs with the Yankees this time next year. And on the Yankees, Hughes goes 18-4, Kennedy goes 19-5 and Chamberlain wins the Cy Young going 21-1. Oh, and Melky hits .299 with 15 dingers and leads the league in assists. (And if I could do it, I would put a smiley face here ;-))

  235. murphydog December 1st, 2007 at 7:55 am

    east side yankee:

    First of all, who cares what ESPN says or thinks? They just stir things up for the ratings and the rantings of ignorant pseudo-fans.

    Second, you may want to actually read what I wrote. I said that performance would matter. (I guess you missed that in your fury to set me straight and question whether I believed what I wrote). What I said next was that personality would count just as much as performance in warding off the boo birds.

    Athletes are judged on personality or make up all the time. Grittiness and fight and killer instinct count almost as much in sports as home runs, strikeouts and wins. Just ask the fans of David Eckstein or even Paul O’Neill. Fans respond to a player’s personality, like Clemens for example. Being able to handle the press and liking the big stage always count toward good performances under pressure. Ask the fans of Derek Jeter. That’s called personality and make up.

    Ease up, eastside.

  236. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 7:57 am

    Another minor league pitcher, supposedly, is included. NYY will pull the entire deal down if Smith comes back with more demands..

  237. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 8:00 am

    Kunaldo:

    to your assertion that Hughes has done nothing I think you should look at Game 3 of the divisional series against the Indians ( he was the winning pitcher) and also why don’t you take a glance at his second game in the majors against Texas ( a no hitter till he injured his hamstring like the rest of the Yankee pitching staff in April and May)

    Why do you think Minnesota (they of the vaunted scouting machine) want Hughes so bad. Do you think the twins think he’s a bust? LOL

  238. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 8:00 am

    Motown Yankees Fan–I like your dream, lol.

  239. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 8:04 am

    When people say the Red Sox will get Haren, sure he might be cheaper, but Billy Beane is one smart guy and he is going to get everything he wants which is two prospects, Ellsbury, Lester.

  240. kunaldo December 1st, 2007 at 8:05 am

    eastsideyankee…..i didnt say he wont be good,but you dont know for sure…..cmon, you’re giving me two games? seriously? even igawa pitched ONE good game

    minnesota wants him b/c he young, has potential, and is cheap….but they are a team with a different mission statement than our own, so you can’t say that since they value him greatly that it’s imperative we keep him

    all i’m saying is, i want to see the guy that complains when #57 is on the mound opening day

  241. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:07 am

    East Side, that one game proves that he was outstanding in that one game. It means about as much as people saying Santana hasn’t proven he can pitch in NY, but, Hughes has proven he can. That last statement is about as wrong as it can be. Hughes numbers in NY was twice as high/bad as on the road, while Santana’s NY numbers are sparkling. You know tat means? The sample is too small to judge. Both teams are taking a big gamble.

  242. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:07 am

    East Side, that one game proves that he was outstanding in that one game. It means about as much as people saying Santana hasn’t proven he can pitch in NY, but, Hughes has proven he can. That last statement is about as wrong as it can be. Hughes numbers in NY was twice as high/bad as on the road, while Santana’s NY numbers are sparkling. You know tat means? The sample is too small to judge. Both teams are taking a big gamble.

  243. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:07 am

    sorry for the double post.

  244. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 8:08 am

    Murphydog

    Please do not take what I said as an attack. But we as Yankees have to realize what is going to happen when Santana comes. You’re right we shouldn’t care what ESPN or Mike and the Maddog say but unfortunately fans will care.

    If Santana struggles they will all attack…just like they attacked AROD. I remember when Mike and the Mad Dog started the ridiculous debate about when AROD would be a true Yankee. The Yankee fans ate it up like oatmeal…People still question whether AROD is a true Yankee or not. Its ridiculous when you think about it. These players need our support not boos

    It will happen with Santana… and the fans will boo him if he does not perform immediately

  245. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 8:10 am

    GreenBeret

    You’re right, I aggree with you…its a huge risk…so why not take the cheaper of the two huge risks?

  246. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:11 am

    People who swallow and live and die with Fatman and Rabid Puppy are about as smart as the idiots that go on Maury Povich and Jerry Springer.

  247. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:14 am

    East Side, because NY just invested another 350 million to win for the next 3-4 years. Doing it with three rookies and a suspect bullpen won’t do it. Would you open a playoff series on the road with Wang or a rookie getting the most important starts? Forget Pettitte…he’s not coming back.

  248. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 8:18 am

    Those Paternity Tests on the Maury Povich show are hilarious. I just thought I’d share that with ya’ll.

  249. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 8:21 am

    GreenBeret7

    I don’t deny its a huge risk…but sometimes you gotta take a risk…there are no sure things in life…Santana does not guarantee us anything except for huge expectations.

    If we have a lousy bullpen it won’t even matter that we have Santana. I’d rather go with the Rookies if one year of Santana costs Hughes, Melky, Tabata/Horne/Jackson. its too much for what we both agree is a huge risk.

    The other 6-7 years of Santana will cost the Yankees 20 million plus per year

  250. james December 1st, 2007 at 8:21 am

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGtWssdauME
    the best maury one ever

  251. DLev December 1st, 2007 at 8:22 am

    Hate it, hate it, hate it. And I agree that Santana for Hughes is a no-brainer, even Santana for Hughes and Cabrera. And I still hate it. What I’d love to see is for Boston to give up 4 high quality minor leaguers, and then try to fit 25 million extra bucks into their payroll. They’ve been trying to dump Manny for years, at his 20 million. Even if it all works out for them for the next couple of years, they simply would not be players for all the good young pitchers who are going to hit the market.

    And in the meantime, I get to keep rooting for Melky and Hughes — and at worst we still make it to the playoffs, or very close, year after year.

  252. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am

    James–THAT WAS HILARIOUS!!

  253. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am

    If this goes through, this will either be one the best or most maligned moves this team has ever made. It certainly won’t fall in the middle of things.

    This infatuation with collecting superstars in order to win every year…..it’s like people haven’t been watching the teams beating us every year. The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. We’re obsessed with shiny parts. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cleveland Indians, 2006 Detroit Tigers, and 2003 Florida Marlins handed us our ass.

  254. TyWebb23 December 1st, 2007 at 8:25 am

    This is so painful. Let them take a package from Boston. I don’t care anymore. I just don’t want to see Hughes vie for a Cy Young at 25 for Minnesota while we are sitting on a 33/34 year old developing arm problems for 20+ million a year. Trading Hughes is an enormouus risk. When you factor in the loss of Melky and the contract that we’ll have to give Santana it just doesn’t make sense. I would much rather watch our own prospects come up then buy another free agent and pay too much and give too many years.

    This is killing me watching Hughes slip away.

  255. whoa December 1st, 2007 at 8:33 am

    I am even more pissed about this now than I was yesterday.

    I predict that Hughes will be better than Santana in 2008 and every year thereafter.

  256. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:36 am

    Cabrera is a totally replacable commodity and NYY has 3 of them between this season and 2009.

  257. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 8:37 am

    “we are over the “hughes is better than santana” ridiculousness”
    ——————————————————–
    I don’t think anyone RIGHT now thinks Hughes is better or even close. Howover, over the next 7 years, Phil numbers might end up close.

    The reality is, considering that we just put $275m into the best position player, and a pitcher can go from stud-to-dud overnight (due to injury), even as a FA, 6/$150 is a huge and dangerous commitment.

    However, as an FA, if it blows, we only lose money. That is worth the chance. But with this deal, we lose a solid and very cheap CF, and absolute stud prospect (our best since Mantle) and a very, very good prospect if it’s Horne, Tabata or AJax

    Over the next 3 years, if Phil is Phil, I would guestamite that Santana is worth 5 WINS better then Phil. So the equation is:

    5 Wins >? Melky + Tabata/Horne/AJax + $25m/yr
    If that’s the equation, the answer is NO.
    $25m buys a LOT of wins (Cabrera, CC, Peavy, Haren, whoever)
    plus Melky + Tabata/Horne/AJax

    This is a panic move, and below Cashman. It will be good for a few years, and very bad after. Since we will be over the Luxury Tax threshold for at LEAST 6 years, ARod and Santana will cost $73m/yr just for the 2 of them.

    We are not that rich… we had to PASS on Beltran. Santana will make us very inflexible again (repeat the Giambi trade), and this doesn’t even include the CASH needed to replace Melky and the prospect.

    BAD DEAL! Sox get Haren for $16.5m, we get Santana for $150m.
    They kick our ass again!

  258. Derek Jeter for President December 1st, 2007 at 8:39 am

    Ok so i think that trading Hughes is just stupid. I dont want to trade Melk but im thinking that we are going to have to but cant we spin IPK, Igawa, Horne, and Melk for Santana. Now there is a trade i could live with.

  259. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:41 am

    Old Fan, are you willing to open or close a PS series with a rookie or Wang?

  260. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:42 am

    Jeter, it’s either going to be Hughes or Cano and Kennedy.

  261. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 8:43 am

    I can’t wait to see Brett Gardner with his speed and strike zone discipline playing in the majors.

  262. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:45 am

    Minnesota doesn’t stop demanding more players, you’ll see Cabrera in center field again, because Cashman will pull the plug on this deal.

  263. Derek Jeter for President December 1st, 2007 at 8:45 am

    GreenBeret7,
    So are you saying we should trade Hughes?

  264. dale baker December 1st, 2007 at 8:45 am

    you gotta give up something to get something and the yankees need an ace. I agree with your assesment that hughes might be more valuable than joba and i think putting joba in the mix cinches it for the yanks.
    however they cant afford to give up 2 pitchers from the major league roster since andy’s not coming back, so i’d go as far as Joba, Melky and thier pick of Horne, Marquez or Karstens
    that way i keep huges and iak for this year’s rotation.

  265. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 8:48 am

    dale baker–Joba is untouchable.

  266. dale baker December 1st, 2007 at 8:51 am

    eroc
    nobody is untouchable and id rather keep franchise than joba
    also joba at the top of the deal means the 2nd pitcher can be from the minors

  267. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 8:51 am

    GreenBeret7

    If it costs what it looks like its gonna cost…then yes…You ask that question as if we going to the playoffs tomorrow.

    If you asked a Sox fan if they wanted Beckett opening a playoff series for them in ’07 after his awful ’06 campaign
    I’m sure their answer would be no. But we all know what a phenomenal 07 he had.

    How do u know that one of our rookies won’t have a phnomenal 08. Do not discount what Phil did in game 3. He came in the middle of an inning, the Cleveland bats were on fire , the Yankees were 2 games in the seireis and he shut them down in the white hot heat of an October playoff game in Yankee stadium that we had to have.

    I have not seen Santana do that yet…we’ll only get a chance in the 08 playoffs.

    I’ll take my chance with the rookie thanks

  268. Sam Lowell December 1st, 2007 at 8:53 am

    Another “hopeless Hank” executive decision.
    Randy Levine fell on his sword for the mishandling of Torre.
    Boras took the heat but got his client the promised $300MM plus while costing the Yanks an extra $23 million and made Hank look like a fool.
    Being outwitted by the Red Sox is the third strike.

  269. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 8:59 am

    Sorry, East Side, but three rookies in the rotation and on a 160 inning limit isn’t going o save the bullpen, and that’s going to be the max limit this year and less than 200 next year.

  270. dale baker December 1st, 2007 at 9:01 am

    green beret

    highly extraordinary or prodigious; exceptional

    phenominal performance by defenition is extremly rare
    counting on phenoninal seasons from rookies is a long shot bet

  271. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 9:02 am

    Going back to what someone asked earlier. The Yankees are currently at 40 on the roster.

  272. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 9:04 am

    GreenBeret7 Murphdog:

    We could debate this for hours but I can’t..gotta go

    We all love the Yankees and want success…I will go on te record as saying if the Yankees give up Hughes,Melky and another top prospect it is a huge mistake. We’ll be doing what we always do…buying another shiny trinket to go with all the others. Except this time it will be worse b/c we will have given up a boatload of fantastic prospects. This trade will go down in history I fear. I can deal with giving up Hughes and just one other B level prospect.

    I HOPE I will be 100% wrong and will cheer my hear out every 5th day for Santana

    talk to you folks later

  273. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 9:06 am

    To Boston Dave:
    Look Dude… I don’t want to be insulting, but please try and hear what people are saying. This is NOT about Santana vs. Hughes. This is NOT about who’s better.
    This is a business deal!
    This is about comparing the value you get VS the value you give!
    This is not about hero worship.

    This is about a 6 year commitment that asks:
    Santana >? Hughes + Melky + Horne + $150m

    This is ABOUT WINS.
    Players continbute to WINS.
    The more WINS a player contributes, the more he is worth.

    Winshares: (WS / 3 = Wins) 2005-2007
    Santana. 23-25-18 = 22 wins
    ARod…. 37-25-39 = 34 wins
    FattyMC. 29-34-30 = 33 wins
    Jeter… 24-33-26 = 28 wins
    Cano…. 12-18-21 = 17 wins
    Sabathia 13-14-24 = 17 wins
    Haren… 15-15-19 = 16 wins
    Beckett. 14-12-19 = 15 wins
    Wang…. .7-17-16 = 13 wins
    Moose… 10-15-06 = 10 wins

    WinShares is NOT perfect, but it is well accepted as a decent way to value how many WINS a player brings to a team.

    READ IT DUDE!
    EDUCATE YOURSELF BASED ON THE LAST 3 YEARS OF PERFORMANCE!
    DO SOME MATH!
    M.CAB IS WORTH MORE WINS THEN SANTANA.!
    CC IS CLOSE. HAREN IS CLOSE. PEAVY IS VERY CLOSE.

    And lastly, Money is an issue.
    The Yanks will NOT go to a payroll of $240m + tax.
    They did NOT get Beltran (29 Wins/3 yrs) because of Money.
    They did NOT get Beltran (29 Wins/3 yrs) because of Money.
    They did NOT get Beltran (29 Wins/3 yrs) because of Money.
    The money spent on Santana will NOT be used for someone else.

    Stop shouting HE’S THE BEST PITCHER!
    Yes he is. SANTANA IS THE BEST PITCHER NOW!
    I AGREE!
    But this is a BUSINESS DEAL.
    and a bad one for the Yankees.

  274. dale baker December 1st, 2007 at 9:08 am

    PHIL or JOBA?
    before you can decide whether Phil is ‘touchable’ you have to decide who’s better to keep, joba or phil. i dont think its a slam dunk that joba is better to hold on to than Phil, but i suspect yanks would rather keep joba as insurance for closer/setup.
    still they need one of them in the rotation next year and id keep phil

  275. Marc December 1st, 2007 at 9:10 am

    Old Yanks Fan – MCabrera is not worth more wins then Santana. I can’t take those stats seriously.

  276. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 9:11 am

    Ken Rosenthal says Hughes, Cabera and mid level prospect isn’t enough!

  277. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 9:14 am

    Old Fan, it’s a little difficult to take an adult serious who calls a player, sa, like Miguel Cabrera by the cute nickname of FattyMC. Not only that, but, bogus made up stats by some hack like Bill James to swindle stat geeks out of their money don’t impress me.

  278. east side yankee December 1st, 2007 at 9:18 am

    dale baker:

    I think you meant to respond to me.

    we all know depending on rookies is a huge bet…but so is thinking that Johan Santana will lead us to the promised land especially if the Sox acquire Dan Haren.

    They are all big huge hairy risks…I just want to go with the cheaper risk. Santana guarantees us nothing just like Hughes guarantees us nothing

  279. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 9:20 am

    I actually like Bill James.

  280. Jax December 1st, 2007 at 9:21 am

    Where the heck is Hal in all of this? Isn’t it suppose to be the 2 sons running the team?

  281. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 9:24 am

    Hey jay destro…
    My friend has a 2005 BMW… I have a 2005 Chevy Nova.
    I asked him to trade.
    He said NO. Why?
    BMW > Nova
    I said, how about I add my 2005 4WD Chevy pickup?
    BMW >? Nova + Pickup
    He said NO. I said, how about I add my $2,000 stereo/TV
    BMW >? Nova + Pickup + $2,000 stereo/TV
    He said NO. I said, how about I add my $30,000 in cash
    BMW >? Nova + Pickup + $2,000 stereo/TV + $30,000
    He said:
    HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

    It is NOT about a BMW vs a Nova.
    It’s about Value Given vs Value Received.
    I offered WAY to much value for what I got back.
    It does NOT matter how good a BMW is.
    I made a bad deal. Just like the Yankees are about to do.

  282. abe December 1st, 2007 at 9:29 am

    I agree with Pete that Hughes may be a better prospect than even Joba (after Hughes can learn a changeup; that’s a necessity). If Twins take the current Red Sox deal with Crisp and Lester, then so be it. Twins are being stupid. If Red Sox do include one of the two top prospects, then Yankees didn’t lose anything. Besides, is Theo really willing to pay 150 mil for a pitcher and is a lefty really willing to go to Fenway? So this can be A-Rod part II.

    Yankees really should hold steady. IPK is very good and that’s why we are giving him up for Santana. But I really think we should stop there.

  283. Phil - 27 in '08 December 1st, 2007 at 9:32 am

    Papelbon adds some perspective:

    “I think a big key in this situation is you know what you’re going to get out of Santana,” Papelbon said. “He’s a veteran Cy Young Award winner. Sometimes you don’t necessarily know what you’re going to get [from a prospect]. You may think a prospect has a ton of potential, but you don’t know what his potential really is until he gets to the big leagues. You know exactly what you’re going to get from Santana, so do you take that gamble or not?”

  284. Phil - 27 in '08 December 1st, 2007 at 9:33 am

    Old Yanks Fan:

    I drive a BMW…I’ll take your offer. :)

  285. james December 1st, 2007 at 9:35 am

    Its in Santana’s best interest to tell the Twins he will only accept a trade to the Yankees or Red Sox. Not either one. He should Pick one and let that team know. If your Johan don’t you want to be in a rotation with Wang, Joba and Phil Hughes and hopefully Pettite with Melkey running balls down in center. Or if its the Sox Clay Buchholz, Dicek and Beckett with Ellsbury in center. Why should he want his new team to lose pieces that could help him win championships. He has power to wield here and still get his money becuase he could still veto the trade if his new team doesn’t give him what he wants. And the Twins are going to trade him so either the Sox or Yankees could offer lower minor league prospects with either a Kennedy or Lester headliner.

  286. Andy Hawkins December 1st, 2007 at 9:36 am

    I love the “The Yankees need an ace” comment. As if the guy who won 18 games in each of the last two years is grossly inadequate to hold down the fort for a year or two while the kids develop. I know he stunk against the Indians in October, but come on. He was pretty good in the postseason in ’06. Two awful starts against the Indians, and Wang is Josh Towers all of a sudden.

    Everyone has mentioned it a ton so far: The Red Sox are not and were never going to include Clay Buchholz in their offer. Why? For the same reason the Yankees shouldn’t give up Phil Hughes. Here are the Red Sox, with a ton of pitching already, and they won’t give up Buchholz? There has to be a reason for that. Could it be that he’s so good, and so inexpensive for so long, that the Red Sox don’t feel it’s worth the gamble? Now consider that Hughes is considered by pretty much everyone in baseball to be a slightly better prospect than Buchholz.

    Guys, there’s a right way and a wrong way to build a dynasty. We saw the right way in the ’90s, when they developed young stars. Since, we’ve seen the wrong way. Nobody is suggesting Johan Santana isn’t great, and I myself would give up Kennedy, Melky and a few guys who played below Double-A ball to get him. But if the Yankees need to start giving up their top guys, the guys they were planning to win their next World Series with, forget it.

    I also don’t get Pete’s argument that a 950-run offense is no good with a rotation that includes three kids. That’s actually the perfect reason to keep the three kids. Maybe on some nights when they inevitably don’t have it, some of that offense can bail them out.

  287. Vader December 1st, 2007 at 9:39 am

    Well, having a family you miss twelve hours or so and this what you wake up to, Pete calling out one of the best posters here, which he has every right to, to keep this place, as Chapelle would say keeping it real. Pete could very easily fix this with registration…but will leave that for another day.

    On to the trade, you have to give to get and this one will really hurt IMO, the $$ to Santana is meaningless, ecspecially with the new Staduim opeing with some extra 80 luxury boxes. All you can hope for is that Santana stays healthy, b/c if he does it will not matter how good Hughes may become, unless he turns out to be a power pitcher that pitches until he is 40. By that time the Twins will have either traded him or let him go via FA bc they wont pay him.

    So if it is Hughes and Melky for Santana do it and get it over with. And if I’m the Yankees there is no way that Tabata or A-jax is included in this deal or even Horne. If they want extra players they are grade B prospects (Marquez, White, Wright, Clippard, A-Gonz, Duncan) and that is it.

    Lastly, I’ve been following Hughes for the last three years and what he was in the minors was silly. What we saw in the majors IMO, is only a small glimpse of what I think he will be, but like I said earlier you have to give to get.

  288. Thurman December 1st, 2007 at 9:40 am

    I don’t know why, but I’m starting to get the feeling it’s all going down as follows:

    - Yankees pick up Santana and Nathan from the Twins for Hughes, Melky, Tabata and Kennedy.

    - Yankees pick up Haren and Street from A’s for Cano, Horne, Marquez and Austin Jackson.

    - Loretta signs and plays 2B.

    - Andruw Jones signs and plays CF.

    Championship #27 occurs in Girardi’s first season.

    That is all.

  289. Real World December 1st, 2007 at 9:40 am

    I’m disappointed in hearing that we’ve blinked and are going to include Hughes. I guess we’re at least getting a pitcher with the quality of Santana, but still, I hate giving up Hughes. We clearly blinked.

  290. Dan December 1st, 2007 at 9:43 am

    Jay Destro:

    great post up there

  291. Phil - 27 in '08 December 1st, 2007 at 9:44 am

    Thurm: Wow, we would have a heck of a pitching staff if that came true.

  292. bskul December 1st, 2007 at 9:45 am

    yea thorne, lets just give up the entire farm system and our young core of players for veterans…makes perfect sense in the long run.

  293. asburyboss December 1st, 2007 at 9:46 am

    why do people care about how much MONEY Santana is going to cost? Is there an award at the end of the year for the BEST value a player provided?

    It is so foolish to sit here and say “now we have to pay Johan $25MM a year too!” SO WHAT!!!!!!

    the only “cost” you need to concern yourselves with is in prospects- PERIOD.

    Phil Hughes has been a rocketship through the minors- no doubt, the top pitching prospect in baseball. But didn’t Edwin Jackson hold that title 4 years ago? Prospects are Suspects. ALL of em. Yeah, he could be good…Santana IS good.

    Melky? He’s got almost 2 full ML seasons under his belt. A good CFer, a decent bat…but is the argument NOT to trade him because he “provides energy”? Not good enough, IMO.

    The Yankees are in a no-win situation with the fans and media. If the Sox stepped up and gave them Ellsbury we’d all be screaming at Cash for not doing enough- and applauding Theo for “doing what it takes.” The ONLY way the Yankees win here is to win a WS in 08…but, come to think of it- wasn’t that going to be the case anyway?

    Santana for Hughes and Melky is a GOOD deal for both teams. Yankee fans were hoping to screw the Minny…and unfortunatetly, that couldn’t happen. This isn’t about the Red Sox “getting” the Yankees. Its about the Yankees doing what it takes to land the BEST LH pitcher in baseball- PERIOD. It’s funny, people act like the Sox don’t WANT Johan.

  294. james December 1st, 2007 at 9:48 am

    street, nathan and mo in the pen
    Santana, haran, joba, wang and pettite in the rotation

    The only thing to worry about then is an asteroid

  295. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 9:51 am

    Hughes and Melky isn’t the actual deal and won’t be. The Twins want to top tier prospects and Melky. They may even try to squeeze IPK into that deal along with Hughes. I’m worried the Yanks will blink again and take the bait.

  296. Thurman December 1st, 2007 at 9:51 am

    Book it!

    By the way, I read an interesting piece recently that argued about the whole Hughes thing. Think about it, early in their careers, Kerry Wood and Carl Pavano were Hughes. Pavano was traded for Pedro Martinez, Wood was retained. How did that work out?

  297. randy l. December 1st, 2007 at 9:52 am

    hughes did not excite yankee fans the way joba did . rationally, hughes minor league numbers are great, but he doesn’t excite the emotions of fans when you watch him pitch. wisdom of the masses? maybe.

    there are so many plusses and minuses that balance out each other that this trade will get down to a feeling or hunch for whoever will have to pull( or not pull) the trigger on this deal.

    as an aside, one thing i like about bringing up young yankee prospects at age twenty one or so is that if the yankees trade them , they can get them back at age 27-28 as a free agent in the peak of their career .

    hughes is so young that he could be traded for santana and still have a long yankee career in his future.

  298. james December 1st, 2007 at 9:52 am

    street, nathan and mo in the pen
    Santana, haran, joba, wang and pettite in the rotation

    anyway we could get Tanyon Sturtze in on this

  299. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 9:54 am

    I don’t think the Yankees blinked in giving up Hughes. I think they expected that all along. If we can believe the rumors, they never said Hughes was untouchable (this year) like Joba and Robbie. What they implied was that if you want Hughes, then everything else in the package gets reduced, unless you include Nathan.

    So I think it goes down like this:

    1. Santana for Hughes, Melky and low level prospect.
    2. Santana and Nathan for Hughes, Horne, Melky and Tabata.

    Hopefully either of these trades don’t come back to bite us, but the good news is that if Hughes is great, the Twins won’t sign him and he’ll be free in 5 years where the Yankees will be the highest suitor.

  300. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 9:54 am

    Peter-
    Can you please send copies of how the fans feel to brian…start a petition…do something to please get us to let cashman know how disappointed many of us will be if he trades hughes???? we can see the reports,whip numbers, what he did last year this is a tragedy and could end up being the worst trade in recent memory…CASHMAN DO NOT TRADE PHIL HUGHES FOR ANYONE…NOT SANTANA….NOONE! AND YES I THINK HUGHES THE NEXT 6 YEARS CAN OUT PITCH SANTANA.

  301. Phil - 27 in '08 December 1st, 2007 at 9:54 am

    Sturtze and Proctor in Torre’s pen out West would be great. They wouldn’t need anyone else in the bullpen. The world’s first two-man bullpen.

  302. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 9:59 am

    remember how well trading Rijo,Drabek,Lieter did for the Yankees when they were Hughes…and I dont want to hear how we are getting back Santana you have to do it. NO YOU DONT. Hughes has very special pitcher all over him and this kind of trade after what he did in september and October would be devastating. Take a chance Cashman…try it a different way…try the kids and let Joba and HUGHES be Yankees.

  303. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 10:00 am

    GreenBeret7 – Old Fan, are you willing to open or close a PS series with a rookie or Wang?
    ———————————————————-
    Well… I trust Wang. Phil will have 1.5 yrs under his belt by Oct. EVERYONE last year wanted to see Joba. Go back over the last 20 years and see how many ‘Rookies’ have KILLED in the PS. Remember Andrew Jones? The Marlins? K-Rod?
    HOWEVER, it we don’t get Santana, and have $150 MILLION to spend on a pitcher, who say’s we can’t pick some one up? Or maybe with that $$ we get 2 BP studs. Or maybe we don’t with the WS in 2008 but get any one of a number of Stud SPs who are FAs next year. This is NOT just about the 2008 WS. This is about building a dynasty… like the rookies (Jeter, Posada, Mariano, Pettitte, Bernie) have done before.
    —————————————————–
    Marc – Old Yanks Fan – MCabrera is not worth more wins then Santana. I can’t take those stats seriously.

    Well… sorry… it is a well respected stat.
    ARod was good for 11 wins last year. Does that sound about right to you? MCab has the same numbers. Why can’t you believe it? Do you prefer the stat “BUT HE’S JOHAN FUCKIN SANTANA!” Does that carry more weight with you? The guy plays in 20% the games ARod/MCab does yet has 66% of his WinShares. Thats impressive. In a 5 games series, yes, one dominant pitcher may have more impact then 1 dominant batter. But not always, and not over 162 games.

    Look at these 2 equaltions. Which would you rather have
    Santana >? Hughes + Melky + Horne + $25m
    Yes or No? No here’s the same equation qritten a different way.
    Santana >? Hughes + Melky + Horne + Miguel Cabrera
    Well? How about this?
    Santana >? Hughes + Melky + Horne + Haren + Andrew Jones
    Well? How about this?
    Santana >? Hughes + Melky + Horne + CC Sabathia + $5m

    Who wins in the PS in 2009-2015?
    Santana….. CC Sabathia
    Schmuck1…. Hughes
    Schmuck2…. Horne
    Schmuck3…. Schmuck1
    Schmuck4…. Schmuck2

    THIS IS A BUSINESS DEAL!

  304. pat December 1st, 2007 at 10:05 am

    Play GM.
    If Hughes was playing for Minnesota and Yanks wanted to acquire him. What player/players would you offer?

  305. yankees62 December 1st, 2007 at 10:06 am

    Jay Destro -

    Your post from 1:21 this morning was a great post… I, too, hate to see Phil go as we have been looking forward to his future in pinstripes since he signed with us a couple of years ago… However, we have to realize that we are going to be able to watch the best left hander in the game every fifth day… I am looking forward to it.

  306. james December 1st, 2007 at 10:06 am

    Well said Therston. You don’t trade Hughes. I don’t wanna hear about super prospects who turned into Edwin Jackson. Dodgers prospects are always overblown and Yankees prospects always under cut. Remember no wanted Wang Cano or Melkey. Hughes is legit. Hes real and hes now. Trading him for Santana is way to close to a sideways move for me. You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes

  307. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 10:07 am

    1. Reluctantly, because I’ve been attached to the idea of Phil Franchise in our rotation, if he’s the price of Santana, he’s the price. Make the trade for all the right reasons.

    2. You can’t include IPK in that deal, because with Andy retiring (and that’s how it looks), giving up two starters for Santana leaves a hole in our rotation (Santan, Wang, Joba, Moose, ?).

    3. Even with holding onto IPK, you still only have 5 starters. What happens if one is hurt, or Moose has another funk? How ready would Alan Horne be?

    4. You can’t look at these trades in isolation. You have to consider what your team then looks like. You can’t fill one hole, just to create 1-2 more.

    5. Along those lines, Melky would have to be replaced. Obviously, Damon in CF, Matsui in LF isn’t our strongest outfield – If it were, Melky would have been penciled in for the bench. How do we make up that hole? Can Brett Gardner be the #4 OF? Is he ready, or do we need to go shopping for that? Granted, OFs are easier to get than a pitcher like Santana, but it does create another hole to be filled.

    Bottom line – Santana for Hughes and Melky goes. If they want IPK in addition, and with the likely departure of Andy, that maybe too many holes to fill in the starting rotation for April 2009. And the Twins should realize that if they really want to do a deal.

  308. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 10:07 am

    How about ERA+? Is that made up too?
    Last 3 years: Santana. ERA+: 148
    Last 3 years: Sabathia ERA+: 130

    Which SP rotions wins the PS in 2009-2015
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – Player1
    Player4 – Player2

    plus we save about $5m/yr for an extra BP guy.

  309. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Thurman:

    That’s insane.

    Someone asked if I’d be willing to go to the postseason this year with Wang or a rookie starting Game 1. I’ll up them one and say this:

    I’d be willing to not go to the postseason at all next year if it meant I was building a team capable of doing what the team Cashman was on his way to building looks like they could do.

    If you must, you part with Kennedy. That has to be the end of it.

  310. pat December 1st, 2007 at 10:10 am

    Flip the script and play GM. If Hughes played for the Twins and the Yankees wanted to get him, what player/players would you offer the Twins?

  311. james December 1st, 2007 at 10:10 am

    You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes what was I saying? oh yeah You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes You don’t trade Hughes

  312. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 10:10 am

    From a Sox fan’s perspective, I think the Yankees are much stronger with Santana, even is it takes Hughes and Cabrera (and spare parts)to get him. I’m dubious about the ultimate value of prospects, even one with a resume like Hughes. I realize he had some injury issues last year (itself a red flag), but I was surprised at how inconsistent, and limited, his stuff was for someone with such a big rep. He was basically a two pitch pitcher, and neither pitch was dominant.

    Regardless, let’s say that he will indeed “develop,’ which many Yankee fans claim they want to see. No, you don’t. Eric Bedard “developed,” Roy Halladay “developed” (was sent back to A Ball), A.J. Burnett is 30 and still “developing.” Santana was coddled in the bullpen for three years. It is no fun to see pitcher’s “develop” (e.g. E. Santana with the Angels). It takes time. Teams LOSE while pitchers develop. And quick “developers” (Loriano, Wood, Prior) break down.

    So take Santana and run. He’s as sure a thing as there is. Believe me, when the Sox were playing big games in October, I wasn’t moaning the loss of Hanley Ramirez when Josh Beckett took those games by the throat.

    Assuming that $$$$ is no issue (is it ever with the Yankees?), this is a HUGE opportunity. When we play the Yankees, I worry about the Yankee ofense and Andy Pettite … we know that we’ll get to the rest of the staff. Santana entirely changes that dynamic.

    If the Yankees had Beckett and the Sox didn’t, the Sox would meet the Twins’ price (Bucholtz and Elsbury) for Santana. The Yankees are spending for THIS year, aren’t in the “development” business, and should pay the Twins their pound of flesh. It makes things much harder for us.

  313. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 10:12 am

    There are a bunch of cry babies here for sure.

    I love watching Phil Hughes, I think he is great. Get over it, it’s business.
    Stop whining, when your able to be the owner of the Yankees then you can make trade decisions.

    Seriously.. stop thinking emotionally and be pragmatic. Emotional business decisions are the worst kind.. and the majority of the hughes supports are being pretty dang emotional.

    We are not get a 38 year old Big Unit back people. We are getting a starter than can give us 10 years of being a lefty ace.

    enough said.

  314. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:14 am

    Regarding Money:

    Why do you care? The team is willing to spend it. It’s not an issue that directly effects player performance.

    Based on the way the market is, money is a non issue when it comes to this trade.

    The Yankees did not create this market.

    The Giants gave Zito that huge contract.
    The Rangers gave Alex that huge contract.
    The Mets gave Billy Wagner that huge contract.

    The Yankees follow the market and pay top dollar for the best. What more could you ask for from an organization that has made it known over the last 10 years, it will spend to get the best product, period.

  315. Yankee Trader December 1st, 2007 at 10:20 am

    If you have to trade Hughes, then take Melkey out of the equation. We don’t need to create two holes by deleting two sure starters for the Yankees to get a soon to be 29 year old pitcher. Who plays center? Damon? Sign Rowand at 14-15M/year-doubt that? Fukudome at 10M/yr-doubt that? Kenny Loftan-give me a break? If Damon goes back to center, we have weakened our already weak, at the corners outfield, defensively.

  316. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 10:20 am

    The Yankees are rich, but to say money is NOT an issue is plain ignorant. Again, the reason we did not get Beltran, who is currently about the best CF in MLB, was TOO much money and TOO long a contract. And CFs hold up better then SPs.

    Plus, we are over the threshold, so we pay $1.40 on every $1.00. Ergo, Santana costs $35m/yr.

    While the Yankees lost money the last 3 years, that is NOT the issue. The issue is they WILL limit the payroll.
    Maybe at $200m, or $220. But they will limit it.
    The Sox payroll is $160+/-. The Next guy is around $110. Do we really want to have a payroll of $240 to beat these guys?

    Can we be SMART and rich at the same time?
    Do we make bad trades because we are rich?
    Notice how the Sox fan thought ‘the Yankees are stronger with Santana’ as opposed to ‘Crap. The Sox didn’t get Santana!’

    Thats because the Sox, even though they spend a lot, understand that being rich AND getting value for your dollar
    is better then being rich and being DUMB!

  317. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:21 am

    Another thought…

    Reactions by most Yankee fans now are not well thought out, rather they are emotional responses based on what I call the “KoolAide” effect.

    You have an affinity for Phil Hughes due to the concept of the “True Yankee” Kool Aide syndrome.

    Phil is a good pitcher, a good guy and cheap. No one doubts his potential.

    Santana is a great pitcher, a gamer and expensive. No one doubts his ability.

    The Yankees are doing what they feel is best to compete. Not making a trade for trade’s sake. That’s crazy.

    Think with your brains a little more, think with your hearts a little less and realize the potential that comes with a Johan Santana anchored staff.

    Overpaying is simply based on the market right now, both talent and money. Both major AL East teams are flush with cash and young talent. You cannot do this deal without giving up big time players.

    Let me repeat.

    YOU CANNOT OBTAIN JOHAN SANTANA FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN BIG TIME TALENT.

    Santana will be traded. It makes sense for the Twins to save the $13M for this season and use the players in trade to develop another contending team.

    The Yankees knew that if they added a front line number one that was ready, not that was a “potential” that they had a much better chance for 2008. That’s what they are betting on.

    Believe in your team.

  318. yankee21 December 1st, 2007 at 10:25 am

    There is no way, no how, the Yankees include Ian in the deal. Forget that rumor, don’t worry and just relax. It can’t be more than Hughes, Melky and a low level(tier B) prospect. Twins ask for anymore they run the risk of the Yankees not only holding firm, but pulling out.

    Losing Hughes, really, really hurts. I love the potential of this guy myself. I like his make-up Sure, it’s painful but remember the admonition of some of the real baseball insiders on this blog,, if you are going to acquire top talent in a trade, it has to be a little painful. There is no such thing as something for nothing.

    Think back how the Sox decision makers must have felt when they let Hanley R go- he was one of the most highly regarded SS in years. Do you think they felt the pain in that deal? I’m sure they did but they went for it because of the prize being traded for; Beckett.

    Santana is probably one of the 2-3 guys in the ML Hughes gets traded for. When the smoke clears, the Yankees have to do what they have to do- this is business and is the right move.

  319. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:26 am

    By the way, if you want to personally argue with me via aol instant messenger, email me your screen name to jaydestro at gmail dot com.

  320. Bob C December 1st, 2007 at 10:31 am

    Santana was #7 in the Cy Young voting this year. So he is only the 7th best pitcher in the AL. His second half of the season was a little scary. His ERA was up, as were his HR’s allowed. The let’s win Now formula over the last 7 years has not worked. I think it’s time to try and see if we can develope some youth for a change. I think we have the right mamager to do this with. The best part of 07 was the exhuberance of Melky, Cano, Joba, Hughes and Duncan. I’d hate to see that traded away. I would really miss Melky’s arm in center field. I like Santana, but the price is too high. This is the true “voice of reason”!

  321. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 10:31 am

    Has anyone notice the statistical analysis given by Fleas and other proponents of this trade? Here it is.
    “He the best Pitcher in the game”
    “We need an Ace to win the WS”
    “Money doesn’t matter”

    These are the thinking, intellegent, analytical reasons for for trade.
    No mention of the value of high-end, low-paid players.
    No Stats to show the positive value of the trade.
    No talk about the posibly loss of Santana is the last 2 years of this contract when Phil will just be entering his prime.

    Nothing. Just ranting and raving.
    Are these the guys you want to run YOUR business?

    The deal ain’t done yet. I can only hope that Cashman is smart and:
    1) Makes this deal LOOK like its happening.
    2) Wait for the Sox to make a big move or otherwise trade a few of their chips
    3) Drops this deal like a radioactive potato.
    4) BUYS Santana next year when he is an FA.

    NOBODY will trade 2 prime, cheap players AND take on a $150m
    contract. Boston is the only one who MIGHT, and I don’t think they are interested. If they were REALLY trying to steal Santana from the Yankees, there would be no leaks.

    Remember the Damon signing?
    Bubba is our CF
    Bubba is our CF
    Bubba is our CF
    Bubba is our CF
    Holy Shit! They just signed Damon! Who knew?

    For Fleas and other great thinkers, please answer this question so everyone here can see how smart your are:

    Which SP rotions wins the PS in 2009-2015
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – Player1
    Player4 – Player2

  322. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:33 am

    Bob C

    You are thinking emotionally. There are enough pieces still in place where the future of the team’s talent is not in jeopardy. Rather it requires further development.

    To defer to the late great Bobcat.

    Think like a GM
    Not like a fan

  323. Kill-Schill(ing) December 1st, 2007 at 10:37 am

    By the way, who is SJ44? What’s his source of information? I’ve heard him mention the he’s acquainted with scouts. Does he work for mlb in some capacity?

  324. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 10:38 am

    I believed in Brian Cashman when he showed me he was developing one of the best minor league systems in the majors and Yankee history for that matter. hughes has done nothing but show he is the crown jewel of this group. Santana could be there in a year or another team could have kazmir,haren,peavy, in the next month and that deal may be good without hughes…so lets wait on that. This is an impatient and fear ridden move. You trade assets to get assets but hughes joba and cano must be untouchable.
    its not smart business to let go of someone this good without giving him the chance to become that player for the team who drafted and developed him. bad business is to spend 25 M for a great pitcher who may have given his best years already for a young cheap great pitcher who has his best years ahead of him…its not about next year so the rotation questions about next year shouldnt be the decision maker…its about what is best for the whole team in the future. hughes may not be exactly santana but the hughes could be the next jake peavy but to say that is to say he is not a pitcher now. he is now…santanas now may be winding down and hughes is just starting.

  325. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 10:39 am

    I would sign Kosuke Fukudome. His bat fits well into the lineup and is known as a ”no non-sense” type of guy. Then he can slide over to RF when Abreu leaves which would make room for Ajax in ’09.

  326. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 10:39 am

    no…Bob C is right…there are clear signs here on both santana and hughes that this deal is the wrong deal. period.

  327. Weekly Journalist December 1st, 2007 at 10:41 am

    If Hughes goes it will be a dark day. It’s not that it will be a bad baseball trade, but it will be bad for the heart and soul of the team.

  328. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 10:41 am

    LOL @ Kill-Schill(ing).

  329. rico December 1st, 2007 at 10:42 am

    Judging from the division of the posters, Hughes, Melky and a prospect for Santana is probably right about at the hurts-but-might-be-worth-it balancing point. Because the team is otherwise built to win now, because I want the gratification of winning now, and because money can solve next year’s problems then, I say pull the trigger and enjoy October 2008.

    I do hope that, if the trigger is pulled, we give Santana his due in money rather than years. One problem the Yankees have had is living with contracts that go longer than the players (Giambi, Mussina, someday Damon? Matsui?) If the same amount of money will make Santana happy over fewer years, go that direction.

    By the way, even though my real name is BOB and I live in Vermont, home of the UVM CAT(amount)s, there is no connection, so you can stop sending offerings.

  330. Weekly Journalist December 1st, 2007 at 10:43 am

    Santana will be sick in YS though. Will the left field be big at the new park?

  331. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 10:43 am

    jay destro – Reactions by most Yankee fans now are not well thought out, rather they are emotional responses based on what I call the “KoolAide” effect.
    ———————————————————–
    OK Jay. You’re a great thinker. Please post your answer to the simple question below.

    If
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + $25m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $5m/yr…. ergo
    It costs at least $5m/yr to replace Melky, so
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr RP

    So, all other things being equal,
    QUESTION: which staff wins the PS in 2009-2015
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – 10M/yr relief pitcher
    Player4 – Player1

    What I have listed above, is an accurate representation of
    a) Santana for Hughes, Horne, Melky and $25m/yr
    OR
    b) Keeping our guys and spending that $25m/yr in a different way

    Feel free to take the $20m/yr allotted for Sabathia, and plug in Haren, Peavy, Kazmir, Bedard or the very BEST pitcher the Yankees can get between now and April 2009.

    Please either find holes in my logic or post your answer for everyone here to see.

  332. Kill-Schill(ing) December 1st, 2007 at 10:46 am

    Here’s a way for the Yankees to improve their outfield defense while playing Daemonic in CF.

    What if the Yankees make Shelley Duncan a regular in RF and move Abreu to LF or vice-versa and hold to their plan to use Matsui as their DH? I saw Duncan throw runners out in two games last year when he played in RF, in the Baltimore game on August 15 when he hit the game-tying HR in the 9th. And then in the Seattle game when A-Rod hit two HRs in an inning, he threw a Mariner out at 2nd base trying to stretch a single. Two great arms in LF and RF might compensate for Damon’s less than potent arm in CF

    (They also can use Brett Gardner as a late-inning defensive replacement if necessary.)

    Then in 2009, they can promote Austin Jackson for CF and avoid having to pay Rowand some exorbitant contract.

    BTW, who the heck is SJ44, anyone know his background?

  333. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Old Yankee Fan:

    I take Santana and take the risk. It’s called risk for a reason. Money isn’t an issue, the Yankees proved that.

  334. Kill-Schill(ing) December 1st, 2007 at 10:48 am

    E-ROC, I’m serious, who is the guy? Just curious. He writes with tremendous authority, just wondering whether it’s warrant. Should I give it greater credence than the average knowledgeable fan?

  335. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 10:49 am

    time to head out for the daily errands with wife. stay sane people.

  336. Jaewon December 1st, 2007 at 10:50 am

    Do you guys think that if they trade Hughes, Melky, propspect for Santana that they should sign Rowand or Andruw Jones? I honestly don’t see the point. If Damon shows up in shape, he’s fine to be the CF. I mean, the Yankees have 3, maybe 4 players for the 1B and DH slot if Damon is in CF, (Phillips, Shelley, Giambi, and Betemit). Another CF is not a necessity. These players can fill those spots fine. If Matsui is the DH instead of the LF, now you have a bunch of unneccesary players that could be put to good use. They have players to fill those holes created by Melky leaving. As Pete said in an earlier blog entry, why block Austin Jackson who is supposed to be great with an aging outfielder in Rowand or Jones?

  337. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 10:51 am

    I like Kazmir, but I doubt the Rays would trade him.

  338. Carmen December 1st, 2007 at 10:52 am

    When you think like a GM, the approach should be to not put all your eggs in one basket. We have heard all these rumors before. Didn’t we hear all summer how badly the Angels wanted A-Rod? Where was their offer then? The Yankees are the most powerful and resourceful organization in baseball but yr in and yr out they get played for fools. That’s exactly what they will be if Hughes is traded. What needs to be remembered here is the “Joba” hype has distracted everyone from how good Hughes is and will be. Hughes has Roy Halliday written all over him. So the question is do you want the Bentley for 25Million and the world of expectations or will a Lexus with moderate expectations for 400k be ok? This is how we got into this position in the 1st place. Remember when we 1st got “The Rocket”?????? He had back to back 20 win seasons for Toronto and we gave up the guy who was 8-1 in the Playoffs!!!!!! Fools if this goes down!!!

  339. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 10:55 am

    The Yankees like Aaron Rowand for his toughness and leadership. I was really high on him, but his 2007 season might be a fluke, IMO. Plus, he might play the game with too much reckless abandon. We already have Damon for that. Get somebody who has put numbers consistently, or just go with Brett Gardner in CF.

  340. Weekly Journalist December 1st, 2007 at 11:01 am

    What do toughness and leadership have to do with baseball?

  341. Tucson Ken December 1st, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Joba should be untouchable & should remain in the bullpen as set-up/future closer where he will DOMINATE for many years.
    I love Hughes & was one of those defending him when he struggled with arm strength, command, & rust after his layoff. He will probably be very good for a long time & at first I was dead set against giving him up. Upon further reflection however, as long as we don’t give up TWO of our young pitchers, this is a deal that we should do.
    Kennedy, while he may not have the ARM of Hughes, already KNOWS how to pitch, & is a tenacious bulldog who will give us many good innings for a long time.I saw him pitch at USC, & he is a WINNER, pure & simple, & seems to be greatly under-estimated by many. Just look at our bullpen to see how overrated arm strength & velocity are.
    As Hank S. pointed out a few weeks ago, people will try & get too much from the Yankees because of their resources, but that a trade will have to be fair for both sides, and certainly the Twins deserve some real talent in exchange for the best pitcher in the game. If we can get him & still keep the makings of a young talented core of starters around him then we need to do it. We still finally have a lot of young pitching prospects who can help offset the loss of Hughes. Pitching longevity is always a crapshoot & if we can get 3 or 4 dominant years from Santana I will be happy with the deal, regardless of how good Hughes becomes for however long, as it is unlikely he will become as good as Santana.
    I trust that Hank S. will trust Cashman, Girardi, & his player development to advise him how much he should give away to get Santana. While Hank S. may seem brash & outspoken, I firmly believe he will let his hired help do their jobs. Hiring Girardi shows that.
    Fix the bullpen now, & we’re all set.

  342. Bob C December 1st, 2007 at 11:02 am

    jay destro

    How many of the star players we’ve acguired over the last few years have actually performed at the same level or better in Pinstripes, not Brown, Johnson , Damon, Giambi, Pavano, Vasquez, etc. The emotional win NOW formula has not worked. Our best team were created with homegrown players, Jeter, Williams, Petite, Posada, and Mo. Kind of hard to argue with facts. That is how a sensible GM must think, not like an emotional win NOW fan! To his credit Cashman has developed a great farm system, so hope they give him time to develope it.

    The definition of insanity is to do the same things over and over again and expect different results!

  343. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Now that it looks like Hughes is on the table I don’t see the twins as being satisfied.

    They said from the outset that they wanted four players.

    They’re going to ask for Kennedy. They definitely know now how worried the yankees are about santana going to the sox and pettite retiring.

    If they got hughes in the deal they’re going to push for kennedy and more.

    They’re going to make some argument like

    Lester = Hughes
    Crisp = melky
    Lowrie = tabata
    Masterson = kennedy

    That’s why its concerning that the news is coming out that they will include phil yet no news has come out that the deal is going to get done.

    I could see the Twins pushing hard on kennedy and threatening to go with the sox deal.

    By asking for kennedy they may be willing to settle for Horne.

    I would not trade Kennedy or Horne in addition to Hughes. Absolutely not. They most I would go is a Marques/ Clippard.

    IMO putting either Kennedy or Horne in addition to Hughes makes this deal go from painful to a bad deal.

    Alan Horne has a high probability of pitching in the majors this year.

    The yankees are going to need another starter if the staff shakes out as Santana/ Wang/ Joba (with innings cap)/ Kennedy and Mussina.

    I think they need to keep alan horne to fill in as the fifth starter at some point in the 2008 season.

    The drop off between Horne and the next minor league arm in the system is significant. Very significant.

    For all of the people who want Santana and don’t have a problem giving up hughes – would you include Horne in that package as well?

  344. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 11:03 am

    Weekly Journalist–Sometimes intangibles are all u need.

  345. Florida Yank December 1st, 2007 at 11:03 am

    A betting man will usually take the likelihood over the possibility. Phil Hughes has nice upside and Johan Santana is is a proven commodity. The Yankees are not hoping for a championship, they want the best chances of ensuring one. This team will be managed differently and that by itself will be a factor.

  346. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Kill Schill – I remember that game in August. Awesome game, too bad Mo lost it in the 10th.

    It’s a creative plan, Duncan in RF, Abreu in LF. The catch is, how realistic is it for Abreu in LF? To me, it sounds interesting, but there may be some issue with physical skills that doesn’t make that transition. I just don’t know.

    As far as the identity of SJ44 – he’s said that he lives and works in South FL, and is connected to various BB pesonnel, at least socially, as well as being a longtime fan (BIG fan). His insight and analysis certainly rivals what we read from some of the bigtime sportswriters.

  347. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Does everyone poster who wants to stand pat understand the innings cap situation on the three kids, That is a huge factor here. Do you want to have to rely on Mussina? Do you consider wang a number one.

    How about ERA+? Is that made up too?
    Last 3 years: Santana. ERA+: 148
    Last 3 years: Sabathia ERA+: 130

    This just shows how awesome Santana is, CC is a stud and his era+ is 20 pts lower than Santana.

    Some people are severely underestimating the value of Santana… How many left aces are there out there…

  348. william December 1st, 2007 at 11:05 am

    Don’t blame Cash. It is Hank’s call. Anyway, in 5 years, the Yanks will be trading prospects to the Twinkies for Hughes. It is the “Circle of Baseball”

  349. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:06 am

    Bobcat said:

    5) This is not Cashman’s trade, though, like any good corporate executive, he had his say and will embrace the group decision.

  350. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 11:06 am

    minor league stats:
    santana 24-23 4.56 era

    hughes 25-8 2.o3 era whip .86
    number 1 pitching prospect in all of baseball.

    post season stats:
    santana 1 win 3 losses 3.97 era 11 games
    hughes 1 win 0 losses 1.59 era 2 games

    Some people are making the point, it is “obvious- no brainer-crystal clear” that you have to make this deal…you dont and its not.hughes could very well outperform santana the next 6 years, the next 12 years.

  351. whozat December 1st, 2007 at 11:06 am

    The things that bugs me is that I really think the Yankees are bidding against themselves. I don’t care about people saying “whatever, Hughes is only a prospect and we have no idea how he’ll perform, and Santana is the best evar lolz”

    Why are they upping the bid if the Sox aren’t including Ellsbury/Bucholz? Who are they bidding against? If the Twins aren’t getting a better offer than Kennedy, the worst thing that happens is they keep Santana. Fine.

    The noise that Cash is the one who needed convincing tells me this is a Steinbrenner getting impatient, and that’s always bad. That’s how you overpay. I really think that Jorge hurt the team’s position by talking about Andy’s likelihood of retiring. That was really, really stupid of him. Now the Twins know that if they force it, Hank will probably blink and make Cash include Phil…which looks like it’s happening right now.

    If the Yanks wind up with Santana, all the people advocating doing whatever it takes to get him will be back in four years whining that the team is paying $30 mil a year (the extension will be backloaded, I promise) to a 33 year old pitcher who is no longer the best in baseball.

    Personally, I think including Phil is the worst idea, perhaps even worse than including Joba. Why? His makeup is perfectly suited to playing in NY. His stuff is excellent, but his control and poise are what make him so projectable. Comparing him to prospects that were rated on pure stuff (Edwin Jackson) is foolish, because what often torpedoes those guys is that they walk a jillion guys. Phil doesn’t have that problem.

    If the Sox were going hard after him and giving up their big guys…well, ok. But they’re not. Lester is inferior to ALL THREE of the Yankee pitchers. Crisp is a worse hitter than Melky and costs a bundle more. Sure, this SS prospect looks good, but he’s never even seen more than a half season at AAA. If the alternative to including Hughes is letting the Twins walk away…fine. Make the trade at the deadline.

  352. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:08 am

    CB – This still looks like one big game of chicken (or poker, or whatever your metaphor of choice is). I don’t blame the Twins, Bill Smith has a chance at one big payday, and he wants the biggest payout on this. A lot depends on Santana himself; with his NTC, he can dictate where he goes, and only he knows his feelings about NY vs. Boston. That and how much Cash and Hank trust that they know his feelings on this.

  353. asburyboss December 1st, 2007 at 11:08 am

    the reason the Yankees didn’t sign Beltran is pretty simple..it wasn’t cuz they called the bank and found the blance too low…it was because he was a 275 career hitter with 20 HR power looking for $100+MM

    it wasn’t the money, it was the bang for the buck

  354. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 11:09 am

    Dude.

    Turn those frowns upside down.

    You’re either gonna have Johan Santana or Phil Hughes.

    There is no reason not to absolutley love life right now (unless, like me, your bum is all black and blue from falling on the ice last night)

  355. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:11 am

    If we get Santana without giving up Hughes, then it will speak volumes about Cash and his ability to a)work a high-stakes negotiation, and b)work intra-office politics.

  356. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:11 am

    I think the worst part about this news is that Cashman is not running the team and it seems like Hank never learned from his father’s mistakes. He’s investing in the Yankee brandname by acquiring big star players without respect for the baseball people. The Sox seem to be listening to their baseball people.

  357. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Joe from LI,

    I agree – for yankee fans I think many of us feel that Phil is in the deal so ok that’s the heart of the trade.

    I don’t think that’s the case.

    The Yankees are now dealing from a position of weakness.

    I also thought santana could dictate where he wanted to go witht he no trade – but it doesn’t look like the Twins are dealing with that pressure on their back.

    I get the sense that santana has told the twins he’ll stay out of this and let them make a deal and then take things from there. Maybe he’s not crazy about boston but would consider it.

    Hughes and Kennedy/ Horne. I hope not.

  358. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:13 am

    Whozat:

    “Lester is inferior to ALL THREE of the Yankee pitchers. Crisp is a worse hitter than Melky and costs a bundle more.”

    Damn straight.

  359. Jaewon December 1st, 2007 at 11:16 am

    Why don’t we just eat some pie and let Cash/Hank do their stuff?

  360. rico December 1st, 2007 at 11:17 am

    Rebecca: While you are recovering, there is a great sketch by Lily Tomlin as a guest host on the 1st season of SNL (11/22/75). Edith Ann ice skating. Available on DVD. Have an acolyte run down to the store and rent it for you.

  361. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:18 am

    Stop knocking John Lester.

    I also think the Yankee package is better. I personally think Kennedy is a better prospect than Lester becuase I don’t like pitcher who don’t throw strikes consistently.

    That said go back and look at the scouting reports on Lester when he was in the minors. People loved him. At one point he was thought to be a better prospect than Papelbon.

    One thing you cannot underestimate in terms of value is a pitcher being left handed. That is not a small plus – its enormous. There are just so few available.

  362. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 11:20 am

    Rico: hah! I am perfectly capable of youtubing it :-D

    (It’s really not that bad,except for the small part where it was impossible to fall asleep on it last night, but it was funny as hell to watch, I’m sure…)

  363. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:21 am

    In regards to the Bobcat situation,

    How about this for a conspiracy theory?:

    Phil Hughes is not in the deal at all but this blog is being used to plant that notion in the heads of the Red Sox front office attracted to the Bobcat bonanza here. Why? To call the Sox bluff and see if they up their ante from Lester + Crisp + prospects.

    Bobcat said, “You read what you’re supposed to read.” Maybe this notion of Hughes being offered is not really a ‘secret’ from an insider like Bobcat, but just part of the game.

    I think Whozat said it best: “Lester is inferior to ALL THREE of the Yankee pitchers.”

    Kennedy might still be the centerpiece.

  364. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 11:22 am

    One thing you cannot underestimate in terms of value is a pitcher being left handed. That is not a small plus – its enormous. There are just so few available.

    Absolutely….

    I would love to get this trade down without Hughes, but we would have to see the LISTS… I wonder if this trade will get done before the meetings..

  365. bottom line December 1st, 2007 at 11:23 am

    CB– Great point on Horne. I also believe they will try to get Horne. If so, I would offer perhaps two lesser choices — but just enough to require Boston to raise its offer.

    At this point, NY has the better offer and if the Twins don’t like it the Yankess should be prepared to walk away — but only after requiring Boston to sweeten the pot. The Yankees have enough attractive pitching prospects (Marquez, MCCutcheon, Kontos, Whelan, Robertson and on and on)to insure that they prevail. But at some point after raising the stakes, they must be prepared to leave the table. The point does come when it simply makes no sense — however much you love Santana — to part with any more young talent.

    Another point — the Red Sox have every right to pursue Santana. But if they’re going to continue to play games, they should be on notice that they will never again be allowed to make a move without the Yankees coming in and jacking up the price. THat’s a war they’re not going to win.

    I wonder who the Twins value more. Hughes or Cano? Personally, I would rather surrender Cano but there’s no question this can be argued both ways. And of course, Hughes is cheaper for now. But if the Twins do indeed prefer Cano, the Yankees could at some point RAISE their offer by substituting him for Hughes. I’m not suggesting they do, but my own personal preference would be to retain Hughes.

  366. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 11:24 am

    How many of you honestly thought that you could get Santana, the best lefty in the Game and one of the top 3 pitchers in all of baseball, for Ian Kennedy + Melky + prospect?

    The Front Office gave its best shot at retaining Phil, probably with an 4-5 player package with Kennedy & Melky as its centerpiece. As much as we may be impressed with the Yankee prospect list, apparently the Twins FO is not.

    Young righthanded pitchers are the Yankees strength right now. If this was two years ago, the Yankees would have no shot at Santana, which speaks volumes for Cashman’s spectacular turnaround of the MiLB system.
    Hey, its gonna hurt watching Hughes develop as an Ace. Keep in mind, however, IF he does, Minny will be in the same boat 5 years down the road – selling him or risking his loss through free agency.

  367. mel December 1st, 2007 at 11:25 am

    Rebecca,

    Don’t you find it sad that people are arguing over Phil and Santana? You don’t want either pitcher to be significantly better than the other just for the sake of saying “I told you so”. Like the rest of the players that leave the Yankees, there’ll always be a soft spot for Phil.

  368. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 11:25 am

    I get the feeling the ex attorney general will be going in this trade too.

  369. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 11:26 am

    Master Wangkee –

    I love conspiracies…

    I also wonder if Hughes has been available all along… I would love to see the LISTS bobcat is talking about. I cant see Kennedy and Hughes. I rather trade Kennedy – even though he might turn out to be more valuable to us this year simply from an innings standpoint…

    I wonder if it is really the yanks be very high on other prospects being named – maybe:
    Hughes + Melky + Doritos

  370. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:28 am

    I prefer Cano in the deal instead of Hughes. They could replace Cano with Sanchez and not lose much production. I wonder what the Twins would want attached to Cano…

  371. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Joba Chamberlain probably has the best stuff of any pitcher who spent time in the minors last year.

    Clayton Kershaw of the Dodgers in only 19 and was promoted to AA midseason last year (Kershaw’s number/ career are striking ly similar to Phil’s actually).

    Kershaw is generally considered to be a better prospect than Joba – its close. But most people give Kershaw the nod.

    Kershaw is left handed.

    Think about that – Joba dominated in the majors. He had a major league WHIP of .75 and Kershaw is still considered a better prospect.

  372. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 11:28 am

    El Comaduce, I agree, Hughes has always been available, however, the Yankees value him the highest, so the Twins would have to either up the ante or lower the asking of ancillary players.

    I for one can’t wait until Johan and Joba start games 1 and 2 next October.

  373. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 11:28 am

    that last post got botched…

    i am wondering if the yanks would rather trade
    PHIL and MELKY and low rated guy

    rather than

    Kennedy and Melky and Horne and Tabata

  374. VEE December 1st, 2007 at 11:29 am

    I believe we need to slow down on this a little bit. All news outlets are saying they are offering Hughes but just like Bobcat said “there are lists offered”. Maybe the last list before Hughes had Melky, Ian, Tabata and another lower level prospect and the twins wanted more so the Yankees offered another list. One with Hughes and just Melky. Once the media outlest heard that, they ran with it that the Twinkies are getting Hughes. In reality i think there may still be a chance that the Twins like the original list better and will want it in the long run. Nothing is done yet so I still have Hughes in Pinstripes until i am told otherwise.

  375. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:29 am

    bottom line,

    that’s what i’m concerned about – i think the yankees have given a very public signal that they are not willing to walk away.

  376. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 11:30 am

    Johan Wang and Joba (if we get lucky with him) will be a nice short post season rotation…

  377. Kill-Schill(ing) December 1st, 2007 at 11:31 am

    Thanks, Joe from LI.

  378. yankee21 December 1st, 2007 at 11:32 am

    CB

    There is no way I include Ian or any other reasonably good pitching prospect if Hughes is part of the deal.

    The most I go is:
    Hughes, Melky, tier B (Desalvo/Karstens). If the Twins want more- I stand firm, and call their bluff. You have to establish your walk away point. For me the walk away point is any blue chip prospect going in a deal with Hughes. Sorry Hughes, Melky and a throw in is it.

    If they wind up doing the deal with the Sox or anyone else,then the Yankees must move on. Can’t make a bad trade.

  379. B December 1st, 2007 at 11:34 am

    I think it’s pretty clear that Cashman doesn’t want to trade Hughes, and Hank & Co. have once again proven they cannot negotiate. All that stuff about accepting the Red Sox deal was just to get the Yankees to include Hughes, and Hank fell for it hard. Too bad, I think this is a massive mistake.

  380. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 11:34 am

    mel:

    I kind of find it funny.

    Especially given that at the outset of this off-season it looked like we’d be arguing not about Santana, but about who’d play third base, Atkins, Lowell or Joe Crede!

    How soon we forget!

    Would you all rather argue about Johan Santana or Joe Crede?!

  381. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:36 am

    JeffNJ:

    I’m not sure Phil was ever on any of the lists. The idea that he’s there only helps to drive up the price for Boston, to test their limits to see what their final offer is before the Yankees swoop in and top the Sox final offer without relenting Hughes.

    Perhaps Bobcat was sent here to establish insider status, build a following and convince Sox insiders that he’s ‘in-the-know’. Maybe Bobcat was supposed to ‘leak’ information that we’re ‘supposed to read’(using his own words).

  382. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 11:36 am

    I hope this all falls apart very quickly, I personally was very excited to see how Hughes, Joba and Ian would do next year, as well as Melky.

    I believe it is too much. I know how good Santana has been. His numbers from last year might be off, and it might be a fluke.

    I think Boston is the front-runner with or without the addition of a Santana, but I don’t buy into this “anythong but a championship is a failure” BS. A more than very good possibility remains that in two years, the Phil-Joba spots in the rotation will be the best 1-2 punch in baseball.

  383. stuart December 1st, 2007 at 11:39 am

    the spoiled yankees management and fans like this garbage… yeah Hughes is unproven blah blah blah but he is a 21 yr. old stud.. he pitched in Yankee stadium at 20 and well…

    Santana will be 29 this season and the Yanks will give up more young talent..

    In 6 yrs santana will be 35 and Hughes will be 27.. We are a dog always chasing our tail..

    DON’T DO IT.. WE WILL REGRET IT FOR 15 YRS, NOT 3 BUT 15 YRS..

    They want too much and the financial costs of Santana will be too high…

    Screw it start the season with the big 3, wang, and Moose, and see what happens….

  384. Kevin December 1st, 2007 at 11:41 am

    If we had this conversation last year, Hughes would have been untouchable. Why has that changed? Hughes showed a lot of promise this year and he wasn’t even supposed to make an appearance at the MLB level yet. He wasn’t completely healthy when he came back and he pitched well anyway (including an impressive postseason appearance). I wouldn’t trade Hughes under any circumstances.

  385. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Boy people seem convinced that Hughes is really on the table. If the goal of the FO is to bluff the Sox and convince them that we’re losing Hughes is a foregone conclusion, fan reaction seems to be really confirming that rumor. If Bobcat was sent here to convince us (and Sox insiders) that Hughes was on one of the trading lists all along when he really wasn’t, Bobcat did his job.

  386. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 11:44 am

    jay destro – Im not sure what risk you refer to. I posted two PS pitching staffs. I simply asked you which one was better. Can you answer that quetion?

  387. CB December 1st, 2007 at 11:44 am

    If I was Smith this is the way I would look at the situation now:

    1. The yankees have publicly stated for years Phil Hughes was the centerpiece of their future.

    They’ve now agreed to include him.

    2. The yankees have made a significant public gesture to acquire santana. they can’t back down now.

    3. I’ve got hughes on the table and melky. would the yankees really allow Ian Kennedy to stand in the way of getting Santana?

    And I’d be willing to push hard on the idea that the yankees will do anything except give up Joba/ Cano to get him.

  388. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:46 am

    CB:

    “They’ve now agreed to include (Hughes.”

    How do you know for sure?

  389. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Hughes is not gone yet.

    One thing I learned from Bobcat is that this is likely a very fluid situation. And that there are various lists and packages. In a high-stakes game like this, it takes time to fully analyze each package, in terms of ability, what they bring to the table for each team, and the finances down the road. That’s a lot to digest.

    This isn’t a rotisseries league. You have to look at the whole picture of your team and the competition.

    If you give up Hughes and IPK, what does our starting rotation look like? Santana, Joba, Wang, Moose. Only 4, because you’ve given up Hughes, IPK, and Andy’s retired (the way it’s looking now). So… what do you do when Moose comes up with a hammy in April? Go with Karstens, Rasner, Igawa? We were there April 2007, remember, and got into a BIG hole. Will Alan Horne be ready after one season at AA? Play Let’s Make a Deal again?

    And, to be even more conspiratorial and nasty, what’s to keep Twins(who supposedly have lots of young RH starters ready to go) from flipping Hughes to Boston for Ellsbury? The Red Sox with of Beckett, Dice-K, Shilling, Bucholz, Hughes, Lester, Wakefield…You get the picture.

    Perhaps, even, Cash put Hughes out there, to try to get Minny to pressure Boston to up the ante; if Boston folds, then Cash pulls Hughes back (“Oops, times up!”) The pressure might be on the Twins there, to make a deal with us, rather than go back to Boston and look like they’re jerking them around. Bill Smith, after all, still needs to maintain a reputation as someone you can do business with.

    Bottom line, this is a very fluid situation, NOTHING has been decided yet. And those who are impatient ALWAYS pay the highest price.

  390. mel December 1st, 2007 at 11:47 am

    Kevin,

    Sadly, Hughes was the future and then Joba seemingly came out of no where. I still say that Joba being great doesn’t make Hughes any less capable but it now makes him expendable. If there was no Joba, then Hughes would be like Reyes and Ellsbury. Untouchable.

    Not that I don’t like Joba, though, I love him. I think that the emotional attachment is stronger with Hughes because Joba’s been a flash of brilliance while we watched Hughes longer.

    It would have been nice to have the two as a 1A and 1B. We’ll see what the final deal is to see if it’s a bad one. Too much more than Melky and Hughes would tip the scale logically speaking.

  391. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:48 am

    Hughes may go, so be it, but it’s not a done deal.

  392. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 11:51 am

    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + $25m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $5m/yr…. ergo
    It costs at least $5m/yr to replace Melky, so
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr RP

    So, all other things being equal,
    QUESTION: which staff wins the PS in 2009-2015
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – 10M/yr relief pitcher
    Player4 – Player1

    An hour ago, I posted 2 pitching staffs.
    One with Santana, and a very possible alternative.
    I asked a simple question.
    Which staff do you think is better.
    There are 2 possible answers.
    1) The one with Santana
    2) The one without Santana

    A very clear question.
    No one has answered it yet.
    Is there anyone here willing to take 20 seconds away from all the bullshit being posted here, and answer that ONE SIMPLE QUESTION!

  393. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 11:52 am

    I’m very grateful that you people on this blog are not running this team. If you were, we would end up being like the Montreal Expos..

  394. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 11:52 am

    Joe from LI:

    “Perhaps, even, Cash put Hughes out there, to try to get Minny to pressure Boston to up the ante; if Boston folds, then Cash pulls Hughes back (”Oops, times up!”)”

    Quite possible. I think the notion that Hughes is ‘on the table’ forces Boston to reveal their FINAL offer. From there, the Yankees can pull Hughes off the table and still beat the Sox offer that’s supposed to exceed the Yankees offer of Hughes.

    Here’s the bet the front office must wage: We still have enough arms/talent WITHOUT HUGHES IN A PACKAGE to beat a the Sox final offer.

  395. mel December 1st, 2007 at 11:52 am

    Too bad Hughes had the misfortune of being born right-handed. lol.

  396. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 11:53 am

    Fleas – You’re probably right. (LOL)

  397. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 11:53 am

    Kevin, I agree with Mel, what happenned with Hughes from last year to this year is the emergence of Joba and anticipated emergence of IPK. If those two hadn’t impressed than Hughes would not be on the table.

    Too bad Wang got hammerred in the postseason and would not do well on turf, because I would much rather trade him than and of the 3 young guns.

  398. B December 1st, 2007 at 11:54 am

    If Hughes didn’t get two serious leg injuries (which I think will have no long-term effects) then he’s untouchable and this trade doesn’t happen. The Kennedy offer was at least equal to the Red Sox offer. There was no reason to add Hughes to the trade.

  399. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Hughes is Cashman’s pride and joy, right? Isn’t Hughes the first draft of the ”build from within era” that made it to the big leagues? I know about Wang and Cano. I’m just curious.

  400. Buddy Biancalana December 1st, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Boston won’t trade Ellsbury for Johan, why would they trade him for Hughes?

    I do agree that since different lists have been exchanged, Hughes may not be trade for sure, though it seems very likely.

  401. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 11:55 am

    Of course they can back down. Like any intelligent group of people should do in the face of a bad deal: WALK AWAY.

    Folks, I don’t doubt one bit that Santana’s a great player. But his addition does not guarantee by any stretch success in the post season next year.

    I am no expert, so I am speaking only from the position of what I see happening during the games. In addition to the crappy pitching, the bats have gone to sleep for the past few years in the playoffs. How does Santana fix all that?

    And how does losing Hughes AND Melky and a high ceiling player like Tabata not open up yet MORE holes for the team?

    Sorry, but let’s be realistic: the Yankees need more time to rebuild. I did not and still do not expect them to go very far in the playoffs in 2008 if at all. In 2009, I think they would have a GREAT chance, with the maturation of Hughes, Joba and Kennedy.

    In short, Santana does not get them significantly closer to winning for them to go and make this deal. The Twins should want the best return on their pitcher. But the Yankees are significantly weakened now and in the long term by giving them that return.

  402. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 11:56 am

    Isn’t IPK suppose to be the second coming of a prime Moose, if reaches his potential?

  403. mel December 1st, 2007 at 11:57 am

    Thrillington,

    Nothing’s going to stop Hank from getting his shiny new toy. And I will definitely enjoy the toy, but still…

  404. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 11:59 am

    “If Bobcat was sent here to convince us (and Sox insiders) that Hughes was on one of the trading lists all along when he really wasn’t, Bobcat did his job”

    Yeah, right! Like convincing us humble bloggers about Hughes’ trade status is going to sway the dynamics of the biggest trade of the MLB off season!

    Even Hank is not dumb enough to include Hughes PLUS Kennedy …unless Nathan was involved too.

  405. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    mel,

    Sorry, I should have clarified. My above post was in response to CB’s post where the author wrote:

    3. I’ve got hughes on the table and melky. would the yankees really allow Ian Kennedy to stand in the way of getting Santana?

  406. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    B:

    I agree which is why I have a hard time believing that Hughes is really being offered or if the rumor of Hughes being offered is meant to push the Sox to the brink of their final offer, bringing us closer to the end of the bidding war.

    “If Hughes didn’t get two serious leg injuries (which I think will have no long-term effects) then he’s untouchable and this trade doesn’t happen. The Kennedy offer was at least equal to the Red Sox offer. There was no reason to add Hughes to the trade.”

  407. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    Latham Joe:

    “Yeah, right! Like convincing us humble bloggers about Hughes’ trade status is going to sway the dynamics of the biggest trade of the MLB off season!”

    Are you saying that baseball front offices don’t try to manipulate negotiations by planting ideas in the media?

  408. AJ December 1st, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make.

  409. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    80 minutes ago I may a post that asked ONE question.
    So far, no one has been able to answer it.
    Anyone FOR the trade is especially encourage to answer.

    If
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + $25m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $5m/yr…. ergo
    It costs at least $5m/yr to replace Melky, so
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr…. ergo
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $10m/yr RP

    So, all other things being equal,
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – 10M/yr relief pitcher
    Player4 – Player1

    QUESTION: which staff wins the PS in 2009-2015?

    (Note: There are ONLY 2 possible answers. either:)
    1) With Santana
    2) Without Santana

    Fleas? Got and Answer? (1) or (2)?

  410. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    When you put on the pin stripes the aesthetics coupled with the energy of being a Yankee can do one of two things to a player.. one: intimidate them, two: make them roarrrrr..

    I have this feeling that Santana will “gear-up” and make his engine roarrr.. he wants to play for a contender so bad.. face it, last year he was vocal about not being happy.. and when you are not happy, you just don’t perform as well.

    so if last year was a ‘bad’ year for him.. man, I can’t wait to see what kind of year he will have this year finally reaching his dream and playing for not just a contender, but the NY Yankees! Something he has always wanted.

    Stop the tear-drops.. there is a storm brewing, and in the eye of the storm is a “proven” left-handed ace!

    On another note.. (I forget your name) but whoever keeps saying not to trade Melky because he is going to be great, is absolutely out of their head. Quite hysterical.. I love Melky’s hustle and defense, that will be missed.. but Melky is totally expendable.

    He is nothing special offensively, and more than likely will never be. If Melky was on the Marlins and you saw his numbers.. and heard that the Yankees were trying to sign him.. you ALL would be complaining about, “WHY ARE WE SIGNING THIS GUY??”

    I’m starting to think that person who is saying not to trade Melky, is Robbie Cano.

    Robbie, “Estamos fuera de leche” (We are out of milk).

  411. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    Old Yanks fan:

    Your formula is difficult to follow but I choose number 2.

  412. Jason December 1st, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    I love Phil Hughes as much as the next guy, following his progress over the years has been a lot of fun, and I’m 100% positive that he’s going to be a star in the big leagues. He proved in Game 3 last year that he has the makeup to win on the big stage…

    …but people need to stop saying that the Yankees are trading young talent for aging pitchers. This is NOT happening in this situation. The Yankees are trading their top pitching prospect for the best pitcher in the game in the prime of his career. The Yankees are trading Hughes for a left-handed ACE (a necessity in Yankee Stadium) who LOVES pitching in New York and on the big stage. It doesn’t guarantee them the championship, but it does put them back in the hunt for #27 next year and the year after that. It would be nice to win a World Series with 3 starting pitchers in their early 20s, but that’s very unlikely.

    Yes, in theory, when Hughes will be the better pitcher when he’s 27 and Santana is 35. But this deal might give the Yankees two or three world titles in that time frame. Is that a bad thing now? Will we still be bitter about this in six years after a couple of parades down the Canyon of Heroes? And who’s to say that the Yankees won’t have another Phil Hughes waiting in the wings from the minors in that time span?

  413. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Old Yanks Fan,

    That is all total speculation, although I appreciate your visionary senses.. it is totally irrelevant and preposterous to think anyone can provide you that answer, especially without borrowing your crystal ball.

  414. mel December 1st, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Fleas,

    Some people don’t want Melky to leave, but in my eyes he is so far down the scale of potential compared to Hughes.

  415. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Master Wangkee:
    No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m referring to Bobcat’s impact on this Blog, which is valuable, but limited. Reaching the numbers of fans on this Blog, as compared to reaching the masses through the typical high profile media outlets is like a drop of water in the Hudson River.

  416. back bench December 1st, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    Long time reader, 40-year die hard Yankee fan, first post.
    Thanks to all for making this the best place to be for Yankee fans (and loyal opponents) in between games (When do pitchers and catchers report). Thanks especially to SJ44 and Bobcat for leading us to see how this business really works. What insight. Arguing over who posted a piece of info first isn’t even close to teaching us how to see things develop in advance. Thank you Pete for last night’s post to keep Bobcat involved. Hope he stays.
    I look forward to the excitement of next season no matter how this Santana deal plays out. Imagine the “David vs Goliath” excitement of the Big 3 pitching on consecutive starts in Bean town.
    One point I would like this august group to consider – Does having a better pitching coach (Eiland) and a better tactician as a manager act as leverage to make our three ‘rookies’ even more potent than the numbers would otherwise suggest?

  417. zack December 1st, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    Folks, there is no way Sabathia is hitting free agency. You can’t look forward a year, it doesn’t work that way. If you are always looking down the road and not taking action now you become the devil rays

  418. mel December 1st, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    I wouldn’t touch post-season Sabathia with a 10 ft bat.

  419. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Latham Joe:

    “No, I’m not saying that at all. I’m referring to Bobcat’s impact on this Blog, which is valuable, but limited. Reaching the numbers of fans on this Blog, as compared to reaching the masses through the typical high profile media outlets is like a drop of water in the Hudson River.”

    Bobcat’s supposed leak graduated from poster-message to popular-blog-headline quite rapidly. Bobcat said “We read what we’re supposed to read”. He said that phrase all along but somehow now we’re all immune to the game and we know for sure Hughes is really, truly being offered?

  420. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    Jason,

    The scenario you outline is logical and fine. Even if Buchanan, Milton and Guzman panned out, you make the trade over and over again for Knoblauch prior to the ’98 season because his acquisition, it can be argued, helped to get us WS wins in ’98, 99, and even ’00.

    I just think there are too many other holes on this team, it’s not as tight yet as those teams in the past. They need MUCH more than Satana. Wang is not Cone or Wells.

  421. RVA Yanks December 1st, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    E-ROC

    From what I understand they both have excellent control of their pitches which makes up for not having a heater like Joba. Correct me if I’m wrong.

    I will chime in with the rest and say NO HUGHES for Johan. Seeing Hughes pitch relief in the ALDS last year was one of the very few highlights of the postseason.

    As others have said, it makes no sense to trade IPK and Hughes because we’ll be short a guy for our rotation, unless you guys feel comfortable with Karstens, Rasner, Igawa, or hope that Horne is ready to go. I don’t like any of those options and I don’t think we should even think of Horne as an option right now.

  422. gayle December 1st, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    couple of things:

    First whomever asked about Hal. He runs the business side of things and Hank the baseball side of thins so you would not necessarily hear from Hal on baseball stuff. I ecpect when it vomed to partnerships, new stadium etc etc that is hwere he makes his mark. I heard that he was very impressive in the last owners meeting where he prespresented his father.

    Second, I said this last night and will say it again today. What do you all expect to have to give up for Johan Sanata? low level prospects and just blow them away with quantity rather than quality? Yes Phil Hughes has shown promise but he has also shown disappointment did you all watch some of th games he pitched this year. Yes we can say it was because he was dealing with injuries and he did do better down the stretch but this is Johan Sanata we are talking about. This guy is a proven ace.

    Part of the plan that Cash had was n ot only to develop talnt from within BUT to have enough quantity of talent from wihin that you could make this EXAVT type of deal when needed. And anyone hwo thinks we dont need Johan Sanata just has not been watching.

    Also we would have 3 rookies starting none of whom have pitched anywhere close to 200 innnings, how do we know how they will react with the increase, will they hold up? Moose who is on the downside and looks like our horse is not coming back.

    We are giving up 1 of the 3 to me that is not a bad deal. If SMith comes back and says we need to give up 2 of them the Yankees walk and we roll the dice with the three of them together.

    Like I said I am more sad to see Melky go not from a talnt pespective as we wilkl be able to replace him somehow (not Rowand or Jones) but I feel more invested with him then any of the 3 pitches with the exception of Joba.

  423. OC Yankees Fan December 1st, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Lets not forget that the goal in all of this a 27th WS victory.

    It looks like Andy may retire. Wang lost two big starts against Cleveland and had an ERA of 19.00 +. This issue (starting pitching) must be addressed now if your goal is to win in 2008/2009.

    In fact, the reason why you develop young players in the first place is so that they can help you achieve your goal–which is to win the next WS. Sometimes this happens when these young players fully develop and can fill holes on the big league roster. Sometimes they are tradable assets which help you acquire proven players when there are immediate needs–like the Yanks have now. Given Wang’s performance in the playoffs and Andy’s potential retirement, the Yanks desperately need an anchor on the staff (a # 1 pitcher) to take the pressure off everyone else. Giradi. Posada and everyone else who has gotten near a mic has said the same thing.

    Its not like the whole farm system in being dumped for one aging pitcher. The Yanks are trading one highly regarded rookie pitcher with great potential, along with a young center-fielder who may very well have already reached his performance ceiling. In exchange, they are getting Baseball’s best left-handed pitcher, who is only 29. IPK, Joba, and all the rest are still on the staff and there are plenty more in the pipeline (Horne, Brackman, Sanchez et al). As much as I like Hughes (who is from the OC) I don’t see why this potential trade is anything but a huge plus.

    Maybe a military analogy would help. When Lincoln appointed General McClellan to build the army of the Potomac at the start of Civil War, McClellan did a marvelous job. But having built the army (with all the pride, love for his men, etc. that went with it), McClellan simply wouldn’t use it. He fought defensively, he was more concerned with maintaining and preserving the army he had built than he was with using that Army to win the war and achieve the very goal that his army was in existence to achieve!

    Once US Grant came along, things really changed. The army of the Potomac could never have won if McClellan hadn’t done such a fine job of building it and preparing to to fight. But it wasn’t until Grant took over and actually used that army to go on offense and fight (complete with high casualties) did the north finally achieve victory.

    Trading Hughes, Melkey and a prospect, is using Cashman’s (McClellan) well-stocked pool of young players to achieve the goal–which is to win.

    I guess that makes Hank the general Grant of this analogy.

  424. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    mel,

    my wife-to-be loves watching baseball with me. She is really fun since she doesn’t get upset about it like I do when things don’t go our way.

    Funny thing is, she always roots for the underdog and young guys. I told her last night that the Yankees are offering hughes for Santana… and she said, “You’ve been dreaming about Santana on the Yanks for years!” which is true.. then I said, “..so the pkg will be Hughes, Melky and someone TBA”..

    her response, “Noooooo not Melky!!!!!”
    Moral of the story here, she has a bigger heart than most of us. Alot of us are really attached to Melky and his hustle.. but it’s 100% emotional and nothing more.

    Also, I think Robbie Cano will be much better without Melky.. I have said that before. Those two are so close, and often go out partyin. Their hangovers were brought to the field a lot last year. Take away the drinking buddy… and focus on baseball exclusively.

    I just think about myself when I was their age.

  425. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    You know, I remember reading about Bobcat’s profession, but I missed what SJ44 does. Can anyone sum it up?

    I agree, they are both super intelligent and insightful. I regard their posts highly.

  426. rico December 1st, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    back bench:
    Whether he ultimately proves a better pitching coach, I certainly think Eiland is a better choice for working with the youngsters: he knows them, they know him, and he has a developmental orientation.
    Girardi should be an improvement as a game tactician. There is the rap about the burnout of his young Marlin pitchers, but lots of folks think that is unfair to him, and he certainly had a good reputation for handling pitchers in his playing days.
    We will just have to wait and see how Joe G does in the hot seat during the season when his combustible mix of overpaid egos hit the inevitable doldrums. Like him or not, that was when Joe T was at his best.

  427. mel December 1st, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    Going back to what Bobcat said, if it’s Hughes that’s quality so I say no more than 3 guys.

    If it’s less than Hughes then good quantity goes back.

  428. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    OC Yankees Fan:

    Moral of the story, high number of casualties are to be accepted before we even know if victory is the ultimate outcome.

  429. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    Fleas,

    With regards to Melky and Cano partying. I think you’re overlooking their enthusiasm on the field. Baseball isn’t supposed to be work work work for everyone on the field. There’s an element of enjoyment that you see in players like Manny, Ortiz and even Pedro Martinez.

    The Yankees players play tight because they don’t know how to have fun. Does this mean that they should go out and get slammed in order to relax out on the field? no. What it means is that they should keep players that have both talent and joy for the game.

  430. zack December 1st, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    I don’t really see why people think a package of Hughes, Melky, and a 3rd lesser pitcher (clippard etc) is worse than a package of Kennedy, Melky, Horne, and Tabata/AJax. You are giving up a lot more in that package, and Tabata/Ajax have just as much potential as Hughes.

  431. yanko December 1st, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    DONT TRADE HUGHES, DONT TRADE HUGHES.

  432. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Does anyone else get the feeling that players around the league view Boston as a more joyful place to play baseball than the Yankees? The corporate model being built in NY certainly seems to be creating a tense situation on the field. Just watching this team has become stressful.

  433. yanko December 1st, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    DONT TRADE HUGHES IT’S A MISTAKE

  434. stuart December 1st, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    again the Yanks offer is much better then MBostons, it is too generous. they are panicking..

    Highes may be very good for 12 yrs.. Santana at best has 6 yrs left…………..

    do not trade Hughes..NO NO..

    Santana guarantees nothing for next yr. all the big signings this offn guarantee nothing!!!!!Why trade away there young talent?????????

  435. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal says the Twins informed the Yankees they were prepared to deal Johan Santana to the Red Sox unless Phil Hughes was part of the deal.

  436. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    I still have a feeling that Johan is going to come out and state his public preference of which team he wants to basically end his career on since his deal can go from 6 – 7 years.

    There’s too much dancing going on here. He needs to speak. There will be a leak soon about where he really wants to play.

    Miller should be able to find that out for us!

    If he leans Yankees, the Yanks can pull Hughes from the deal and the Twins lose all leverage when a player with a no trade clause states his desired destination.

    That said, I trade Hughes for Johan in a heartbeat.

    The Yankees have stockpiled young pitching talent and they will keep developing good young arms.

    At this point, Hughes is a good young arm. He’s not a top flight pitcher. He’s still learning his pitches.

    Johan is a top flight pitcher.

    If Minny wants Kennedy and Hughes though? Walk away from the deal and tell them to go back to the Red Sox.

    Hank and Cash actually have to pull the Arod reverse psychology on this trade to control it. It’s a risk, but I think they can pull it off.

    If they publicly pull out of trade discussions stating that Minny is asking for too much, then Boston loses their desire for him.

    All Boston is doing is trying to block him from the Yankees.

    If Boston felt he wasn’t going to the Bronx, they would more than likely love to keep their cost controlled prospects as Gammons has stated.

    The Yankees can actually close the market for Johan since I still think there is only one team (the Yankees) willing to pay 20 million + a year for him.

    Boston would only do that to insure he’s not a Yankee. I don’t think they would do it if they thought the Yankees were out of it.

    Boston has a mostly proven vet rotation in place and young arms on the way that there is no need to make this deal.

    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I just think the Yankees need to take control of this trade. If they are publicly not in the mix, it changes this whole thing. I kind of hope the Twins ask for too much so the Yankees can “walk away”.

    In that scenario, we end up with Johan and all the static and smoke will be cleared.

    And Pete?

    I don’t understand why Bobcat needed to reveal himself to you? I just don’t.

    You have a wide open forum and he wasn’t posting anything that was hurting anyone. Nothing inflammatory.

    Even if he were full of it, he was entertaining the other people in this blog.

    You value your blog because it has no restrictions (other than language) and then you tell someone to drop their shroud of anonymity?

    He shouldn’t have to.

    That said, I’m sure you never told him “reveal yourself of you’ll be banned”. I think you just want to know who he is, but that’s part of the fun of it. Perhaps he took your query the wrong way.

    He has good info and a good point of view and people enjoy his postings.

    He’ll be missed if he’s gone. I hope he reconsiders. Letting the dude know his identity is his to keep (even from you) would be a nice place to start since it seems he thinks you want him out if he doesn’t tell you who he/she is.

  437. yanko December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    STICK WITH THIS ROTATION, AND BUILD A GOOD BILLPEN.

  438. AJ December 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm

    “The Twins reportedly informed the Yankees they were prepared to deal Santana to the Red Sox unless the 21-year-old Hughes was part of the deal. Fearing Santana would join Josh Beckett to give their rivals two aces, the Yankees decided to put Hughes on the table”.

    I see the Twins are really squeezing the Yanks for every last drop.

  439. jay destro December 1st, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    posting from my treo while wife is shopping so it will be brief.

    Old Yanks Fan…

    I take santana rotation

  440. Admiral Ackbar December 1st, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    IT’S A TRAP!!!

  441. Master Wangkee December 1st, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    “FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal says the Twins informed the Yankees they were prepared to deal Johan Santana to the Red Sox unless Phil Hughes was part of the deal.”

    I say let them have Lester the BB machine and Crisp the expensive, deflated ex-roider.

    Our merchandise is worth far more.

  442. bardos December 1st, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    yankees blink first as twins-sox pull feint and give the new steiners their first big scare. johan wants NY and yankee mystique. don’t be fooled.

  443. rico December 1st, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    Master Wangkee: I am not sure about the cause and effect. New York seemed to be playing a lot more “joyful” in August and September when Joba was rocking and Boston’s lead was eroding. As for corporate models, I think that Boston’s recent success owes a lot to a disciplined business approach to making themselves competitive every season (right up to making fan-beloved prospect/cancer-survivor Jon Lester a trade chip). I wonder whether what the relative joymeter readings would be with the same teams and different postseasons (which might just have been as simple a matter as better bug spray in Cleveland).

  444. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    Old Yankees fan are player 1 and player 2 etc the unknowns who have to replace hughes, horne and melky? And when did we get sabathia and how?

  445. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    So, the Red Sox have now succeeded in making the Yanks surrender their top pitching prospect (and probably Alan Horne as well). Next, they’ll likely steal Haren from the A’s for nothing. This is truly a return to the Dark Ages…

    Epstein must be laughing his ass off right now. And to think I was actually stupid enough to believe the Yanks were going in a new direction and would give the kids a chance before trading them…

    As the Who sang, “Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.”

  446. Buddy Biancalana December 1st, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    SJ44 has never disclosed what he does for a living, I asked him if he was a scout & he said no, but has lots of friends who are, don’t think he was ever a player, maybe a Minor leaguer.

    He is heavily involved with watching & going to tons of Minor league games & has spoken with Pete about doing a comprehensive Yankees Minor league report. He is really well spoken, so I think he may be a writer within baseball somehow.

  447. stuart December 1st, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    we have been hearing I do not trade this guy for about 10 yrs. I have a novel idea do not make the trade. Will the yanks be worse off in the short term? Yes but with Santana and all the losses it guarantees nothing. there payroll will be it’s usual bloated and inflexible and they are diluting there future.

    Kennedy I make the trade in 1 minute Hughes no way.

    call minny and bostons bluff, they are bluffing….

    usual yankee spoiled fan and instant gratification management foolish move, which guarantees nothing……

  448. the truth of the matter December 1st, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    Honk your horns if you think the Santana deal is strongly fueled by the media who will be tripping over themselves next week in Nashville and reporting a combination of factual stories or those taken out of context knowing full well that there’s legions of baseball starved fans looking for anything that resembles a deal.

  449. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:52 pm

    It sucks losing Hughes. Yes.

    But are we really all in a tizzy becuase we might be stuck with the best pitcher in baseball, who is left handed, for the next 6 years?

    This is NOT going to make the Yankees worse.

    If Hughes fills ALL of his potential, then its not a great trade for the Yankees… its just an ok trade.

    But get this through your heads. Phil Hughes might not be a Hall of Famer. I know that’s hard for some of you to accept.

    Some of the Sox fans in here are making more sense than we are (they arent mad the lost Hanley for Beckett and Beckett was hardly the best in baseball when they got him – he had to transition from the NL to AL East, etc).

  450. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    On the subject of Johan making a public statement, I don’t think he will, but it brought back a nostalgic memory.

    I couldn’t find the initial newspaper item in the Daily News that I remember reading in late December 1997, but here is the link from the Augusta Chronicle. Randy Johnson said essentially the same thing that every paper reported so the sound bite is the same as I remember:

    December 30, 1997:

    Seattle Mariners pitching ace Randy Johnson doesn’t expect to be traded soon because of the team’s asking price.

    “They are asking for a lot,” Johnson said. “With New York (the Yankees), they are asking for a couple of players and the Statue of Liberty. And Cleveland, they are asking for a couple of players and Jacobs Field.

    “That’s not going to happen. Teams know that I am not going to be there after next year. Why not wait a year, and they know they can get me? I mean, they are trying to get (Yankees starter) Andy Pettitte. Well, keep Andy Pettitte because I will be there a year from now in a possible scenario.”

    Here’s the link to the entire article:

    http://tinyurl.com/335tuf

  451. Butch Wynegar December 1st, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Let me dream a little bit here on the following scenario

    -”They” let us know what we want to know ie: Hughes formerly off the table now allegedly on. All this of course coming last night via Bill Madden from Tampa, not Bill Smith

    - Minny relaxes and whoops “mission accomplished bitches!!” and Theo and Boston starts High fiving each other and doing the Joba fist pump cuz they made the Yanks give up Phil-thy Hughes.
    -Bill Smith starts to shift focus on his real Winter Blockbuster trade for Joe Nathan to the NL west where his spoils would be higher in comparison to Johann’s
    -And Boston moves on their Plan B whether it’s the Sheets scenario or the Haren possibility and ties up their Lesters etc.. in those negotiations.
    -Cashman and crew then low ball Johann on his extension. Offer him 22 per yr and he balks. Deal is off Hughes and all.
    -Minny and Boston have already started moving forward and yanks are back to square one because Lester is on his way to Oakland or minnesota and they aren’t going to go and put Bucholz and ellsbury back in play for Johann.
    -So minny is now back to ipk, melky and an A- prospect. First hardline offer is back on the table and wham Johann, Wang, Phil-thy, Joba, and Mussina/Karstens or Steven White is the rotation.
    -Now we can focus on bullpen and Outfield.

    boooya!!

  452. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 12:54 pm

    ….You know, this pessimism is really really bothersome.

    (I think there are two dead squirrel carcasses hanging off of the power line in front of my apartment. It’s kind of creepy. I’m kind of glad I can’t see well.)

  453. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    ESPN.com says that the Twins and Boston are supposed to speak this afternoon and if Boston includes Buchholz or Ellsbury then the Twins will take their package. Since they like there prospects better. That is crazy that they would rather have Ellsbury then Hughes. I think that Boston will include him and they will get the deal done.

  454. V December 1st, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    “The Twins reportedly informed the Yankees they were prepared to deal Santana to the Red Sox unless the 21-year-old Hughes was part of the deal. Fearing Santana would join Josh Beckett to give their rivals two aces, the Yankees decided to put Hughes on the table.”

    This is what you call a ‘bluff’.

  455. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    Thrillingon, good find…. of course Randy Johnson did NOT go to the Yankees for another 8 years after he said that!

  456. rico December 1st, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Truth of the matter: beepbeepaaOOOgah!!!
    But I am still starving.

  457. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    V – how do you know that with absolute certainty? It might be, but obviously we do not know that and the Yankees dont feel that way either.

    I personally would rather overpay a little bit (if you even consider this overpaying) to get the best pitcher in baseball and know the Yanks can compete, then let him go to your rival and be the overwhelming underdog for the next 3 seasons.

  458. Laura December 1st, 2007 at 12:58 pm

    Has anyone stopped to consider that getting Johan might make Andy reverse his position on retirement? Lest we all forget that Andy wants to win above all else. A rotation of Santana, Wang, Petite, Chamberlain and Moose (with Kennedy in the bullpen) has a good chance of winning some games. Andy may see this as a chance to play on a team with a really deep rotation. Besides, what’s one more year?

    I don’t want to lose Hughes either, but it’s not like Santana is some schlub. This isn’t the Randy Johnson trade or the Kevin Brown trade. Plus, maybe we can get Hughes back at some point. You never know.

  459. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Rebecca –

    seriously… if you took out the names from these posts and based it solely on the (in my opinion unfounded) pessimism, you’d think the Yanks were trading Hughes, Joba, and Cano for David Wells and Tom Glavine.

    This is nuts!

  460. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    theses Twins want Jackson in the deal I can sense it already if it comes to that walk away Cash just walk away, drug Hank if you have too, Hughes and Melky I mean the # 1 minor league pitcher and a young upcoming 23 yr. old w/ an arm, is enough

  461. V December 1st, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Boston Dave – It’s business. It’s bad business to let one player (the Red Sox) know the other player (the Yankees) is out of the bidding. You maximize offers by making each player believe the other is bidding the moon.

    Honestly, the BEST thing that can happen to the Yankees is for Boston to sacrifice its future by trading away their blue chippers and signing Santana to a bank-breaking deal. Yes, I said it. That would be a GOOD THING.

    Actually, wait, one better is for Santana to not be traded at all, and Yankees sign him as a free agent at the end of the year.

  462. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Yes, I hope Boston actually does step up to the plate and close the deal with Minnesota. That would be a dream come true…

    Boston was already on its way to being the most hated team in baseball. Getting Santana would cinch that title for them. Meanwhile, we can watch some exciting young players develop into stars.

  463. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    Butch – That’s entirely plausible, I think. The only catch is that there would be only a 72-hour window to negotiate with Santana’s agent, and if the deal collapsed at that point, the other subsequent deals between Minny-NL Team, and Boston-Oakland may not be sufficiently progressed.

    But, putting up Hughes in an attempt to get Boston to disclose their final, and hopefully inferior, offer, or fold entirely, I think may be part of the negotiations.

  464. CB December 1st, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    If the Red Sox were ever serious about santana they will include ellesbury in the trade.

    I can see them holding off on buchholz but not a position player.

    They have to be looking at this as the kill shot on the yankees if they wanted santana to start with.

    If the twins like ellesbury that much I don’t see how the yanees can match that. Cano isn’t getting traded and I don’t even know if the twins would want him over ellesbury given the money.

    A rotation of becket, santana and buchholz will be very formidable to say the least.

  465. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    Who would win in a poker game,

    Bill Smith
    Theo Epstein
    Brian Cashman
    Bobcat

    ? ;)

  466. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    Master Wangkee – I will explain. Thanks for your answer.
    ——————————————————-
    The Twins are asking NOW for IPK.
    I based my equation on the following trade:

    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne
    OK? Hughes + Melky + Horne make aound $1m, and Santana will make $25m, so the equation is now
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + $24m

    OK? Now (if we DONT do the trade), we can equate $20 of the $24 Santana would have cost and sign CC instead. So now…
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $4m/yr.

    OK? Now, (if we DONT do the trade), we save $5m/yr to NOT have to replace Melky, so
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $9m/yr

    OK? Now, I take the $9m and buy a high end Relief Pitcher, so now
    Santana = Hughes + Melky + Horne + Sabathia + $9m/yr RP

    So, all I did was use the additional money Santana would cost us ($24m), and the money replacing Melky would cost us ($5m) and bought Sabathia($20m) and a quality Relief($9m) instead.

    So If we get Santana, we lose Hughes, Melky (who we need to replace for an additional $5m) and Horne and $24m/yr.
    So now we have team (1) Santana

    If we DO NOT Get Santana, we save $29m and keep our players. With that $29m we save, I instead buy CC($20m) and a High end RP($9m)

    So now, team (2) Has the guys we saved by NOT getting Santana (Hughes, Horne) and the 2 guys I bought with the $29m we saved

    So, Team (2) is Sabathia, Hughes, Horne, and a high end RP

    These 2 equations are Identical in value, based on the proposed trade and Santana’s additional cost.

    Santana = Sabathia, Hughes, Horne, and high end Relief Pitcher

    So….
    (1) Santana costs the same as:
    (2) Sabathia, Hughes, Horne, and a high end Relief Pitcher

    My question is: Which one of those 2 deals, (1) or (2), is better.

    You will notice that NO Pro-Trade people answer this, because simply equating dollar for dollar, what we GET (Santana) is OBVIOULY less then what we keep and buy with the money we save.

    Now, in reality, since Hughes hits arbitration in his last 2 years, and so does Melky, there may be an additional $30-40m cost OVER SIX YEARS. So it aint exact, but the equation is pretty close to reality.

    So, all other things being equal
    Santana – CC Sabathia
    Player1 – Hughes
    Player2 – Horne
    Player3 – 10M/yr relief pitcher
    Player4 – Player1

  467. Dimitri December 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm

    I read a lot of the comments and it seems to me most of the Yankee fans out there do not want this trade to go through. I agree. I hope Hank sees this and listens to this widespread consensus. Santana will greatly enhance our chances of winning the WS but Hughes is only 21 and can in a few years be that ace we need at a lot cheaper price. I think most Yankee fans would agree that it would be a lot more fun to cheer for Hughes, a Yankee farm product, than root for Santana.

  468. RGK December 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm

    OK Hank. You asked us to be patient. Now show us WHERE THE HELL YOUR PATIENCE IS. DON’T TRADE HUGHES!!!

  469. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm

    That is the biggest joke that the Twins were going to trade him to Boston for Lester and Crisp. Crisp who was awful last year, no wants and was didn’t even play in the WS. Lester who is a decent pitcher at best. So what if Boston offers Mirabelly then they can get the deal done? Pathetic the Yanks have to offer every A+ prospect that they have to even stay involved and Boston is leading with there B prospects in the deal.

  470. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:01 pm

    “I say let them have Lester the BB machine and Crisp the expensive, deflated ex-roider.

    Our merchandise is worth far more.”

    Master – problem with that is…. yes, the Twins will be terrible and regret trading to Boston and not NY.

    Yes, the Red Sox will be the best team in baseball for the next 4 years.

    Dont want that to happen.

  471. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    Dimitri – AMEN!!! Your post was right on the money…

  472. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    Master Wangkee – Please tell me if you understand.

  473. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    V –

    I wish I could share your enthusiasm for 2012. I personally dont want the Red Sox winning two more World Series over the next 4 years.

  474. V December 1st, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Dave –

    It’s a bad play to concentrate on foiling your opponent at your expense. With the Wild Card, it doesn’t matter if Boston is better or worse than the Yankees down the stretch (and the Yankees ALWAYS seem to hit their starters). Do not make a bad deal merely to spite the Red Sox.

  475. Bob C December 1st, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    Dimitri, I agree!

  476. CB December 1st, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    Boston Dave,

    Where would you draw the line on this trade?

    Hughes + Kennedy + Melky + another player – would you do that?

    Hughes + Horne + Melky? + another player?

    I don’t want them to trade Hughes. But I also don’t think this is necessarily a “mistake.” It’s a difficult situation that’s about making painful tradeoffs.

    Giving up Hughes – very painful

    Not getting santana (especially if he goes to the sox)- very painful.

    You’ve been very vocal about getting santana as a must. Where do you draw the line?

    The twins are going to ask for as much as they can get. That might be Hughes/ Kennedy/ Melky/ and Tabata?

  477. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    I agree that the fans in there have to take a step back and realize in order to get an ace, you have to give up the goods.

    The fact that we have untouchables in Joba and Cano show that this team knows what it’s doing.

    In the bad past, we trade Buhner for Phelps people.

    If this really were the dark ages, we’d be trading Joba and Cano for Santana. The Yankees are not that dumb anymore. They don’t make those kind of deals.

    This deal, as reported, isn’t one of those deals. It’s actually (gasp) a fair deal.

    There is a glaring need on this ballclub and it’s not another young RH pitcher with promise.

    We have 3 of them in the rotation right now. All of them values all over baseball.

    Losing one of them for a LH perennial Cy Young candidate ace under 30 is the right move for this team to make.

    End of story.

    I do wish that we could call Boston’s bluff on this, but it’s too risky to probably try. I just don’t think they really want him and want to sign him to a 6-7 year contract.

    I can see the Red Sox and the Twins agreeing on the players and then the deal falling apart on money and years.

    That would be the best thing to happen for the Yankees. It would lower the cost in players significantly.

    You saw how Boston played hardball with Lowell, Schilling and even Dice K last year. I don’t think they have a blank 7 year 140 million contract sitting on the desk with Johan’s name on it.

    They think they are so smart and smooth up there that they’ll think they can get him for 18 million for 5 or something.

    Johan will walk away from that and declare he either goes to the Yankees or he’ll wait till free agency and go to the Yankees.

    I don’t think Boston will meet his contract demands. They are bluffing in my opinion.

  478. Nick L. December 1st, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    Boston is very juvenile in thinking they’ll drive up the price to keep Santana away from the Yankees. It’s the same principle of a neighbor putting up a fence thinking it will keep people out. The Yankees are capable of knocking down that fence and have the means to do it. Boston isn’t as well built as their delusional minds (or Gammons) would like to think. There’s little to envy with their farm system. Not the case with the Yankees. The team from the Bronx have the bullets in their arsenal.
    What bothers Boston the most is the knowing that once they use their best young chips in a Santana or Haren deal, they can only cross their fingers that some prospects could make it to the big show.

  479. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 1:11 pm

    CB I draw the line here

    Hughes and Melky you package that anywhere else you get back a package. This is a game of chicken to drive up the price to wazoo on Monday, pretty soon it’ll be the lease to new Yankee Stadium. Hughes and Melky >>> Red Sox combo, after that nice doing business w/ you enjoy Lester or w/e you find to Smith

  480. V December 1st, 2007 at 1:11 pm

    Question – can a Baseball Prospectus subscriber put together the PECOTA values for 2008-2011 for Santana, Hughes, Cabrera, so we can compare to their expected contracts?

  481. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:12 pm

    CB – I personally would not give both Hughes and Kennedy. That’s not to say that the Yankees still wouldnt be better with Santana. I just dont think its unreasonable for the Twins to expect Hughes. Put yourself in their shoes.

  482. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:12 pm

    Boston is already the best team in baseball. Even without Santana, they’d stand a good chance of winning a few more titles in the next few years. So, why sell the future for Santana right now? Do you really think he’s going to single-handedly bring the Yanks to glory and/or prevent the Sox from going to another World Series? Seems like the Randy Johnson theory all over again to me…

    Santana has, what, maybe 8-9 more effective years left (barring any major injuries)? Hughes could have close to twice that amount of time. Nevermind the fact that it’s not a 1-for-1 trade. Horne could end up being a pretty good pitcher as well. So, essentially you’re trading two high-ceiling pitchers and a good young outfielder – all with the better part of their careers still ahead of them -for a single “ace” who is already midway through his career. Not smart.

  483. B December 1st, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    “Boston is very juvenile in thinking they’ll drive up the price to keep Santana away from the Yankees. It’s the same principle of a neighbor putting up a fence thinking it will keep people out. The Yankees are capable of knocking down that fence and have the means to do it. Boston isn’t as well built as their delusional minds (or Gammons) would like to think. There’s little to envy with their farm system. Not the case with the Yankees. The team from the Bronx have the bullets in their arsenal.
    What bothers Boston the most is the knowing that once they use their best young chips in a Santana or Haren deal, they can only cross their fingers that some prospects could make it to the big show.”

    Are you drunk?

  484. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    I would walk away from the table if the Twins are asking for Hughes, IPK, Melky and Tabata. That’s just not a good deal for the Yankees.

  485. Doug December 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    The Yanks have only put Hughes on the table. If that was all Minny wanted, they would have made the deal last night. This thing is far from over. When all the BS is out of the way, we will see how good of deal Minny gets.

  486. kissbeavis December 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    For the love of Ken Phelps … don’t do this deal.

    Here are my reasons:

    1) Santana gave up 33 HR last year and saw his ERA go up by half a run a game. His record against winning teams was less than stellar and his postseason resume is OK, but not breathtaking.

    2) He’s a changeup pitcher, which worries me as he gets into his 30′s. When he doesn’t have quite the same zip on his fastball and there’s less of an mph difference between his fastball and change, will he be as effective? I doubt it. Keith Foulke anyone?

    3) Shipping Melky means you have ANOTHER hole to fill. So, in addition to paying Santana $25 million a year, you’re going to have to go out and spend who-knows-how-much on Aaron Rowand? The payroll will be at $250 before we’re through.

    4) If the plan is to move Johnny Damon back to CF .. scrap that plan. He’s gets too banged up over a 162-game season and his arm is a joke. This has been a BIG problem for the Yankees with Damon and the last years of the Bernie era. The way teams go from first to third on routine singles to CF is embarrassing. It makes innings longer and just kills them against teams like the Angels. This is especially important b/c Jeter has the range of a fire hydrant, so there are lots of those grounders that get through.

    5)Starting 3 neophytes doesn’t scare me. If it’s a total disaster, they still have the flexibility and chips to make changes. If Santana comes over and blows out his arm, we’ll just go out looking to pile on ANOTHER bad contract.

    6) If the Yankees offer a similar package to the A’s for Danny Haren, they get a pitcher who is young and proven, they don’t have to fork over $25M a year, and can use that $$ to shore up the pen or pursue another OF if they want one.

  487. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    Thanks, Boston Dave. Yes, it’s funny to consider how late we got him in his career when you consider that from 1993 onward, he was the most desirable pitcher that most of us Yankee fans wanted to see fitted for pinstripes.

    I remember the trade deadline passing in 1998 and Johnson ended up in Houston. I think Freddy Garcia was part of that trade.

    And if I recall correctly, when that evening’s Yankee game ended and the deadline passed, there was a mini celebration in the Yankee clubhouse after the game (they were in Oakland, so it was only 9 PM) because they were able to retain Homer Bush and Hideki Irabu.

    Now, hmmm…..do you make that deal? ;)

    In all seriousness, the belief in 1998, with the kind of season they were having, was probably “if it ain’t broke…”

    In hindsight, however, the Yankees would have kept Johnson after the ’98 season, he never goes to the D’Backs, and the Yankees win at least the 2001 WS beyond the ones they would win in 99 and 00.

    Then again, Homer Bush was part of the Clemens deal in 1999, so who knows what happens there. The Yankees would probably have been able to still make the deal, possibly with someone like D’Angelo Jimenez.

    In any case, Boston Dave, I want to say I totally understand your logic as far as the trade. I agree, in principle. Yes, Santana is outstanding. If they can build the rest of the staff around him, I think we have a solid chance of winning now. But without Hughes, I think you lose one of those long term building blocks.

    You need more than just one ace, and I am not certain that I think Moose and Wang are going to be like a Cone and Pettitte or Wells.

    I guess we’ll see. Here’s to the trade’s success, if indeed it goes through.

  488. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:15 pm

    Chicago Dave –

    the key in your statement is

    Santana HAS

    vs.

    Hughes COULD

    When you can trade a maybe for a definitely, you take it.

  489. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    y’know, we might as well have some fun with this.

    http://www.puristbleedspinstri.....ntana.html

    Guess what happens to Santana, win a prize.

  490. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    December 1st, 2007 at 1:13 pm
    I would walk away from the table if the Twins are asking for Hughes, IPK, Melky and Tabata. That’s just not a good deal for the Yankees.

    I wouldn’t even put IPK or Tabata in this deal

  491. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 1:16 pm

    The more I think about it, the more I hope that the Red Sox and Twins agree on a player package that includes Ellsbury and Lester, etc.

    I don’t believe that Johan is going to take the extension offered by Boston. Their entire business model is not to pay top dollar for these guys.

    They consider themselves shrewd dealers and they always resign players for a bit a discount that is a win for them (with the exception of JD Drew, although they did put injury clauses in his contract).

    For Johan to waive the no trade clause, Boston is going to have offer him more than Zito just for starters. I don’t think Boston will do that.

    Johan and his agent know the Yankees have a blank check waiting for him. It’s in their best interest to hear how high the Yanks are going to offer before taking anything.

    Let the Twins and Red Sox agree on players. My gut is telling me that when that happens, the next thing we’ll learn is that there is no deal between Johan and Boston on the contract and then we get Johan for a lesser package.

    Just ride it out people. I think this is going to work out in our favor even if it looks like we’ve lost initially.

    Not to mention that Boston kills some of their young players hearts by including them in this deal and showing them willingness to deal them.

  492. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    For those that put heavy credence in Bobcat’s comments, remember this from one of his last Posts:
    “The “leaks” are accurate. The Yankees have decided to call the Twins’ bluff and put Hughes on the table, which changes the dynamics of the trade, but stays within the “lists”.”

    Hughes was probably available from the start – only with less prospects added. Its all a poker hand – Are the Twins bluffing when they claim that without Hughes plus Melky and whoever, they will permit the Red Sox to discuss a contract with Johan.

    I agree – Hughes plus Kennedy & Melky should be a deal breaker. But Hughes and Melky for the best lefty in baseball?
    Gotta do it! If Boston is permitted to obtain Santana together with Beckett – it IS A kill shot to New York.
    Hughes will be great – but he’ll be doing it for Minny. NY can overtake the Twins. Getting Santana gets NY much much closer to the Red Sox.

  493. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    So Minny is talking with Boston, huh? Ellsbury is more attractive (lol) than Melky.

    I would love it if Boston threw in Jacoby and they went to the 72-hour window. And then Boston balks at Santana’s demands. Deal off the table. Who would be left to play? Oh, the Yankees.

  494. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    Thrillington,

    Does the fact that the Yankees have Joba, Kennedy, and a slew of other young pitchers not ease the pain of potentially losing Hughes?

    I believe Santana now is comparable to getting Johnson in 1998 as you said. I just think we are already giving Hughes HOF status when it might not happen. Fact is, nobody knows what Hughes will do. Maybe he’s one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball, maybe he’s top 20. We pretty much know what Santana will be.

    Losing Hughes hurts but it immediately puts the Yanks back in business and a serious contender. I can live with that.

  495. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    Boston Dave – Randy Johnson was a “definitely.” I believe Javier Vasquez and Jeff Weaver were also considered “definitely” guys when we traded for them. I don’t believe in “definitely” anymore. Bottom line is I wouldn’t trade Hughes for Santana under any circumstances. I’d like to see the Yanks succeed with their own homegrown talent again instead.

  496. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 1:21 pm

    I’m right there with you Mel.

    I still think we end up with Johan and we give up a lot less than is being reported.

    It’s folly for him or his agent to take any contract extension w/o hearing what the Yankees (who need him the most) are willing to offer him.

    Johan controls this deal. Not the Twins, Red Sox or anyone.

  497. Heath December 1st, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Given a choice of what teams of four have the most upside brewing in their farm systems I take the Yankees closely followed by the Rays and Toronto followed by Boston.

  498. V December 1st, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    “I agree – Hughes plus Kennedy & Melky should be a deal breaker. But Hughes and Melky for the best lefty in baseball?
    Gotta do it! If Boston is permitted to obtain Santana together with Beckett – it IS A kill shot to New York.
    Hughes will be great – but he’ll be doing it for Minny. NY can overtake the Twins. Getting Santana gets NY much much closer to the Red Sox.”

    I disagree with this analysis. ‘The best lefty in baseball’ is not a method of argument. Try a cash flow analysis, include who you’re replacing the CF with, and the lost opportunities due to making the trade (Haren, Peavy, etc.?)

  499. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Chicago Dave – if you want to compare Vazquez and Weaver to Santana, I can’t help you.

    If Santana isnt definitely, then nobody is. And what does that make Hughes? Maybe, possibly, if all the stars align?

  500. kissbeavis December 1st, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    If the Sox get Santana, so be it. The way I see it, their probably PRAYING for the Yankees to make this deal, while they do something smarter — again — like trade for Haren instead.

    Think of it, if the Sox get Santana, what are they going to have to fork over to keep Beckett happy at the end of his deal (in 2 years)?

    I feel like they are out there, just goading the Yankees to make hasty, expensive decisions … and the Yankees are only too willing to oblige.

    I’d much rather either:
    a) trade for Haren;
    b) add a less expensive veteran pitcher we won;t have to hang onto long term (Lieber maybe);
    or,maybe wisest of all
    c) just go with our young trio and see how they develop.

    Will all three of them be Cy Young contenders? History tells us no. But they’ve each tasted at least a little MLB success and I’m willing to give them a chance to fail. It’s better than watching another high-priced disappointment.

  501. Winfield killed my seagull December 1st, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    keep hughes, trade wang.

  502. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:24 pm

    I used to read all of the posts here. Now, it seems a bit tiresome to read with so much speculation going on. However the Santana sweepstakes ends, it will end.

    At the end of the day, I hope we don’t get substantially older yet again. This club needs to get younger in the field, and on the mound.

    IMO, we are much better off with Melky in center than any available replacement, including Damon. Two years in a row, the Yankees were lifeless until Melky became the starter. Anyone want to go back to that malaise?

    If we are going to trade Hughes, then I hope the only other additions to the package are minor leaguers. Certainly, including either IPK or Melky substantially weakens the team at least a couple of days a week.

    But, it IS nice to see the excitement for the Yankees in the first week of December.

  503. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    kissbeavis – the Sox are not praying the Yanks get Santana.

    AND we are not losing all 3 of the trinity. just one. actually, the yanks have so many other young guns in the minors that once hughes is gone, there will be 4-5 pretty good pitchers coming up.

  504. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    The Twins still want a blue chip prospect to go along with Hughes and Melky. So who would ya’ll to the trade? Tabata, IPK, Horne, etc?

  505. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Boston Dave – You’ve got to remember how both Vazquez and Weaver were regarded at the time both trades were made. They were both considered to be proven young pitchers who were on their way to becoming aces at the time the Yanks got them. If you can’t remember that, then I can’t help you.

    If you want to trade the farm for next year, that’s fine. It’s one point of view. I simply have an opposite viewpoint. I think we can agree to disagree, can’t we?

  506. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    Dad In Iowa, that is true…. but a 28 yr old pitcher (be 29 next year) isnt a huge issue in terms of ‘getting older’.

    How does everyone feel about going into next season without a single lefty starter (and lefty reliever for that matter) ?

  507. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    Worse-case scenarios in decreasing order:

    1. Boston gets Santana for B-package and $
    2. Boston gets Santana for B-package and $$$
    3. Boston gets Santana for A-package and $
    4. Boston gets Santana for A-package and $$$
    5. Yankees get Santana for A-package
    6. Yankees get Santana for B-package (either way we’re paying $$$)
    7. No one gets Santana and we (fingers crossed) get him in free agency.

    Even if the worst case scenario happens we’ll be o.k. cuz we’re the Yankees.

  508. Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte December 1st, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    Andy Pettitte is a selfish, self-centered piece of sh it if he retires. Regardless, it was, is, and always will be about him as follows:

    He goes back home to Houston even though the Yanks offered him the same amount of years and more money to remain.

    He returns to the Yanks but only if he gets to pick up a free $16M for 2008 no matter what he does in 2007 showing what a phony he was about wanting to go back home to be with his with his family cuz why would you go back to N.Y. after 3 years of being home? $$$$$$. The Yanks showed him plenty of respect with that $16M + $16M player’s option deal.

    He passes up what NO pitcher in M.L.B. made this year save him and Clemens and what NO pitcher is making next year, not even Santana ($13.5M). Why agree to so early a deadline to pick up the option if you’re not sure about coming back?

    He, a guy who hangs out all day doing nothing, wants to take a ridiculous three months, maybe more, to make a decision to come back for another year.

    If I was Cashman, I’d have told him on 11/1 -after he had the remainder of October to rest- he has until 12/1 to let the Yanks know his decision about the Yanks as the team has to move forward with a plan including or not including him by then. If he sees that as rushing him, too bad, this is the New York Yankees, not the New York Pettittes. He said he wouldn’t play for anyone else, so let him retire if he wants.

    If he retires, he shows he is not a competitor, just another primadonna who puts I before team. He lead the Yanks on into thinking he was coming back next year cuz who’d pass up $16M? He will have completely screwed up the Yanks plans cuz say the Yanks trade Hughes in a package for Santana. It means nothing when the rotation is Santana/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Mussina/ Kennedy cuz you really want a rotation made up of guy with zero M.L.B. starts (Chamberlain), another with only three (Kennedy), and an old hasbeen (Mussina)? Who knows how Wang does after two awful starts in the A.L.D.S. and after that idiot Torre started him on three days rest. What if any one of them falls to injury?

    Come back for another year Pettitte -you owe that to the Yanks for all they’ve given you and leave on the table for you. You don’t, your reputation as a competitor is over if you retire at freakin’ age 35. Grow some balls and tell your wife the Yanks need you for one more year more than you need an extra year of retirement from baseball. I mean how could you retire after the Yanks get Santana? It says alot about what you’re made of which is NOTHING BUT A PRIMADONNA WHO ONLY CARED ABOUT HIS COMFORT AND WHAT WAS RIGHT FOR HIM. You never really wanted to win cuz Santana/ Wang/ PETTITTE/ Chamberlain/ Mussina is a World Series-contending rotation. As if making $16M is so tough when you’re not even among the top 10 starters in M.L.B. (who I can list trust me).

  509. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    Chicago Dave – Vazquez and Weaver were ACTUALLY closer to being Hughes than being Santana. They were both young up and coming starters with POTENTIAL who had not won CY YOUNGS and dominated baseball for 4+ seasons.

    Educate yourself.

  510. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    The Twins are VERY good talent evaluators:
    “Boston’s offer (could be) Buccholz, Coco Crisp and minor league infielder Jed Lowrie, and a fourth player, minor league pitcher.

    Hughes > Buchholz (lets say by a little)
    Crisp > Melky (by a little), but Crisp is 4m/yr+ more.
    Any 2 of our Pitchers > Jed Lowrie + minor league pitcher.

    BUT, the deal is close. Pretty even.

    Worst Case: In 2009:
    The Sox have Santana($25m) but no more Manny($20m) = -5m.
    Schrill and Wake are gone/league average.

    Their rotation: 2009
    Santana
    Beckett
    Dice-K
    Lester
    ?????

    Since we did NOT spend $25, we buy a stud (CC/Harden/Peavy/Karmir)

    Our Rotation: 2009
    CC (or equivalent)
    Wang
    Hughes
    Joba
    IPK
    Horne

    They are better… but not by a crazy amount.
    No compare offenses (they have No Manny)

    Now, how many other pitchers do the Sox have (in case of injury, disappointment)? How many do we have?

    Head-2-head

    Santana vs Sabathia …. 3 wins Sox
    Beckett vs Wang……… Even (ERA+: Beckett/116 Wang/119)
    Dice-K vs Hughes…….. 1 Wins Yankees
    Lester vs Joba………. 2 Wins Yankees
    ??? vs IPK/Horne…….. ????????

    Is their Pitching that much better then ours?
    What about in 2010? How long do you think Dice-K is good for?

  511. Thrillington December 1st, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    Boston Dave:

    Absolutely. I agree, I am happy to still have Kennedy and Joba. I remember Brien Taylor and all in between, so I know about prospects being prospects.

    Now the question becomes, who else do you go after to bolster in the rotation? Would you give up Kennedy, Tabata and Horne to get a Bedard or a Kazmir?

    Because Santana with what they’ve got is not enough to go the whole way. It’s just not.

    Bottom line, I hear ya. If I were GM, I would not do the deal and go with what they’ve got, because I can live without the “win it all or it’s a failure” attitude.

    Chicago Dave:

    I am also still smarting about the Vasquez and Weaver trades. In my emotional outburst last night (for which I apologize) I called Santana the “next Javy Vasquez.” But in reality, he’s not. You can’t go the opposite direction in this thinking and just be gun-shy and not making any deals just because the Yankees have been burned in recent years. Maybe it’s just bad GM-ship. Maybe it’s as unpredictable as bad weather. Who knows.

    But I don’t think the Santana situation is comparable to any of the maligned trades you mentioned.

    It’s more like (and better) than acquiring David Cone in 1995.

  512. kissbeavis December 1st, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Boston Dave,

    I get that they aren’t giving up the whole troika.

    It’s the economics of it that I hate the most.

    A package of Hughes, Cabrera and, say Tabata or Horne or Austin Jackson or whoever that prospect might be … still leave the Yankees with having to pay too much money to Santana, then turn around and either spend more $$ on a CF or, move Damon back to CF. I don’t like either of those options.

    The Yankees best path to building a sustainable winner, like in the 90s, is to have a young core and enough payroll flexibility to make big moves when they have to. Not tie up all their $$ in long-term contracts at the expense of their top chips.

    If the Yankees take a small step back this year but get them selves in a better position to have sustained success .. I’d prefer that.

  513. Grant December 1st, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    I honestly believe many of you are in love with some narrative of what Phil Hughes’ career will be, the kid pulled a hammy planting his foot, you never know what is going to happen. Johan Santana is not Carl Pavano, he’s not Kevin Brown, He is not Randy Johnson, he is Pedro Martinez, he is the best pitcher in the game and he is in his prime. He would not be an aging ex-star the Yankees are over paying. He has two Cy Young’s already. He is in his prime ahnd the Yankees would sstill have more young pitching prospects than most teams.

  514. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    ok kissbeavis… i can understand that even if i dont personally agree. i also dont care how the steinbrenners spend their billions. if i could spend their money, id rather they spent it on the team rather than more vacation homes and other investments.

    but i get what you’re saying

  515. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    I am not concerned if Boston gets Santana (although I think it is unlikely they will either pay him, or that he will approve a trade there).

    We will score close to 1000 runs again this year with our present lineup.

    We have the BEST closer in the league.

    We have young guns who can shore up the bullpen, including the 8th inning.

    We have 3 young studs to start, plus Wang who is a stud and Moose who is ok.

    We may get Andy back. If not, we either go with what we have plus the kids, or find someone else who will not cost an everyday centerfielder and starting pitcher.

    We HAVE a playoff team. Maybe a championship team if either of the three rookie starting pitchers turn into an ace this year.

    Get away from the ledge, no need to jump.

  516. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    GLove, Latham Joe – You’re right. This is high-stakes poker, with the key being knowing who’s bluffing about what. The one thing we do know, for sure, is that impatience – and poor information – is costly.

    Maybe one day, someone will write a memoir of these negotiations. Wouldn’t that be fun reading!

  517. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Chicago Dave – Boston is already the best team in baseball. ———————————————-
    Well….. I’m an old guy and the memory is failing.
    But I seem to remember that once Phil came up (even though he was injured) and Joba and IPK came up, I thought we gained 12.5 games on them.

    If’s funny, because if that were true, and Phil was healed, and Joba and IPK had their feet wet, and ARod was signed for life, and AJax, Miranda and Tabata were 1 or 2 years away…

    Well gee… I would think we had a much better team.
    We wont talk about them losing Manny after this year either.

  518. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    Dad in Iowa,

    LOL. It’s Pollyannas vs. Chicken Littles, Gladiator Style!

    Nice to see that we can have nice dialogue without disrespecting each other.

  519. Nolan December 1st, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    I like this deal. In my mind, we can just sign Hughes when he’s a free agent. I mean come on, these are the Yankees.

  520. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte
    Andy Pettitte is a selfish, self-centered piece of sh it if he retires.
    ————————————————
    Possibly the most classless remark I have ever heard.

  521. Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte December 1st, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    Another thing: I don’t wanna hear how Pettitte can do what he wants and he doesn’t owe the Yanks anything. Oh yes he does owe them. They wanted him back after 2003, paid him $16M for this year -wayyy above market value (he’d have never been paid that by Houston or anyone else), and offered him a free $16M for next year. That’s more respect than what Boston gave Schilling after Schilling helped them win two World Series in 4 years: a year and $8M + incentives for not being a blimp, not another year and say $16M, a $3M raise for helping us win it all again. I’m shocked Schilling took that offer, I personally would’ve told Boston to f#ck off and signed with Tampa Bay for a year and a mil to mess them up cuz imagine a front four of Kazmir/ Schilling/ Shields/ Garza for peanuts? That’s an above .500 team folks.

    I can say Pettitte’s a noncompetitive bitch if he retires at 35 when his pal Clemens pitched well into his 40s. Family life schamily life when you have October 2007 through mid-Feburary 2008 and the rest of your life after October 2008 off to be with them. You’re with your family the 81 games you’re on the road with Houston or the Yanks? NO. Your wife and kids can’t live in a beautiful house in say Westchester County, NY July through August when the kids are off from school? Gimme a break. Your kids are settling into school September and get to see you on tv and live in October. I bet it’s cuz they’re afraid of N.Y.C. and/ or see it as an unholy, sinful place. They are Seventh Day Adventists so it wouldn’t suprise me.

  522. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Nolan,

    I don’t think Phil will be back.

  523. Doug December 1st, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    No way this deal goes down like this. Boston”s bluff will be exposed soon. You have to have faith that Sanatana wants to be Yankee. He will let us know very soon.

  524. Big Stein December 1st, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    I saw that the Twins are meeting with Boston to see if they will throw in both Ellsbury and Buchholz, I don’t know if they will, but if they do I think the Yankees should just let them do it. Santana would give them a great rotation, but it would help drain their future. If we don’t get Johan I am perfectly comfortable going with our current rotation, I don’t think we need to win the WS this year, if we just spend a year to develop our youth it will be fine. Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy could be the best 1-2-3 in the MLB for years with the exception of what TB might have. We’ll see whats gonna happen, but I’m actually rooting for someone else to get Johan, I don’t feel like paying more for tickets so Johan can get $25 million a year.

  525. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Old Yanks Fan – Boston won the World Series in a landslide. By default that makes them the best team in baseball right now.

    Boston Dave – Did Santana win the Cy Young last year? What guarantee can you provide that he will return to form and continue to vie for the Cy during his tenure with the Yanks? If he doesn’t return to form, and instead turns in numbers like, I don’t know, let’s say Mike Mussina (and I mean Mussina’s good years with the Yanks, not last season’s numbers)…Will it still be such a genius trade? Again, I’d like to reference Randy Johnson…

  526. mel December 1st, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Dandy,

    If what you’re saying is true about Andy being Seventh Day Adventist, then that explains a lot.

  527. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    Joe From Long Island:
    Exactly – high stakes poker..and as Fans, all we can do is watch and listen. Despite all our impassioned pleas, outrage or outspoken support – we are powerless.

    Whether you think Hughes is the next coming of Roger Clemens or Santana is the next Lefty Carlton, Bill Smith and Cashman/Steinbrothers will decide the fate of this proposal.

    All that we can decide is whether we root for the Yankees or go elsewhere.

  528. bkight December 1st, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    I say call the Twins bluff on going with Boston’s crappy offer. I think everyone is missing the point. Hughes, Joba and IPK don’t have to be as good as Santana for the Ysnkees to win it all. They may not do it next year, but 2009-2012 will look much better if we keep them. Plus Melky in CF is huge until AJax/Tabata is ready.

  529. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Anyone think that we should also swap Kennedy, Joba, Tabata, and AJax for a 1978 Ron Guidry? I was thinking we’d still have enough minor leaguers to also upgrade in centerfield to a nice 1941 Ted Williams.

    When this team wasn’t doing a damn thing in the ALDS, Phil Hughes came and gave them the lift no one had given them, albeit a bit too late. Real teams do that. The teams that have been beating us, year in and year out, do that. You don’t do that when you walk around the locker room going “…and your name is?” while your accountant’s on the other line.

  530. Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte December 1st, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    Old Yanks Fan

    Classless? Try TRUE. Think about it:

    Yanks offer him the same years and more money than Houston back in 2003 and probably blew Houston out of the water for this year.

    Yanks give him $16M this year -name me another pitcher besides Clemens which was a special case who made that this year.

    Yanks give him a free $16M for next year.

    Yanks get Santana and Pettitte retires. Rotation is worse without Pettitte cuz Santana/ Wang/ Pettitte/ Chamberlain/ Mussina is better than Santana/ Wang/ Chamberlain/ Mussina/ Kennedy (it just is).

    Yanks don’t get Santana, Boston doesn’t get Santana, and Pettitte retires. Rotation is not winning the division vs. Beckett/ Schilling/ Matsuzaka/ Wakefield/ Bucholz or Lester
    or someone else traded for (Danny Haren?) It just isn’t. You’re asking three kids with a combined 16 M.L.B. starts, 13 by one of them (Hughes), a guy with 2.5 years of M.L.B. experience (Wang), and an old hasbeen (Mussina) to overtake Boston. YOU’RE FRIGGIN’ NUTS IF YOU THINK THEY’RE BEATING OUT BOSTON OR WINNING THE WILDCARD. B.t.w. who’s that proven postseason stopper among them? Mussina? No. Wang? No. It certainly isn’t Hughes, Chamberlain, or Kennedy.

    Yanks don’t get Santana, Boston does, and Pettitte retires:

    Boston: Santana/ Beckett/ Schilling/ Matsuzaka/ Wakefield
    with Bucholz as insurance

    Yanks: Wang/ Hughes/ Chamberlain/ Mussina/ Kennedy
    all because Pettitte doesn’t have the heart or balls to come back and finish unfinished business which is winning a World Series.

    Goodbye to the Yanks making playoffs for 2008-10 unless they land Sabathia or get an ace via trade, and that’s if 2 of the 3 kids amount to anything which is no guarantee.

  531. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    2009 FAs – (Age/ERA+ last 3 years)
    A.J. Burnett (32/116)
    Rich Harden (27/130ish)
    John Lackey (30/134)
    Jake Peavy (30/128)
    Brad Penny (31/120)
    C.C. Sabathia (28/129)
    Ben Sheets (30/121)

  532. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Chicago Dave – the word “genius” has no business being in any of your posts

    Sorry, nobody can give you a full-fledged guarantee that Johan Santana won’t be a complete bust. Now go cry and deal with your pain.

  533. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    got a question for the if Santana goes to Boston thinkers

    lets say it does happen and we go w/ Dan Haren

    your telling me we are worse off ?

    Johan
    Beckett
    Dice-K
    Schilling
    Bucholz

    vs

    Joba
    Haren
    Hughes
    Wang
    Horne

    Stop panicking so much people

  534. bottom line December 1st, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Is it just me, or does this Boston managment team seem like one of the nasties, under-handed and downright creepy groups in sports history? I mean the list of their “marginal” practices goes on and on: Millar, Drew, Lugo, the hatefulness of Lucchino, now this. Meanwhile, their fans cheer all this on, presumably because it has given them a “winner.” How pathetic.

    It is my impression the Yankees long ago decided to distance themselves from efforts to raise the price for players they didn’t really want. Obviously, no such decision has been made yet in Fenway. There was a time I did not like the Yankees. But I am really learning to despise the Boston Red Sox.

  535. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    P.S. Beckett, last 3 years, ERA+ 119
    (same as Wang for his career)

  536. RosterRooster December 1st, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    What I am most worried about is Phil becoming a Red Sock, Dont forget, he grew up a Socks Fan. If Boston trades for him, or grabs him in FA, it could be bad. Think of how painful it would be to see him in a boston uniform shutting down our lineup.

  537. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    Stuart said it beautifully at 11:39 as to always chasing our own tail….

    …so did Yanko at 12:40, although I’m not sure what a Billpen is…

    ….but truer words have not been spoken that Admiral Ackbar’s. IT’S A TRAP!!! :)

  538. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    Brandon – were you able to type that with a straight face?

  539. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    RosterRooster: he’s still one friggin guy. we’d get ready to face him just like we would any other pitcher.

  540. Chicago Dave December 1st, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    Boston Dave – So, you want to be a classless prick instead of having an intelligent debate. You’d rather start slinging personal insults than compose a well-reasoned, cogent response. Then again, you reside in Boston, so I suppose I should excuse your ill-mannered behavior. Must be something in the water up there…

    “Genius” certainly has no business in any of your posts, either, my friend.

  541. Aram December 1st, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    SIGN THE PETITION

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com.....hil-hughes

  542. Global Warming December 1st, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    Brandon,

    Going for Haren is weak for many reasons.

    One being you’d have to deal with Billy boy Beane. Two is when you realize that Haren has a GREAT contract so he’d probably end up costing more than Santana. But finally, number 3 being the outcome of pitchers going away from Oaklands spacious park. Not too pretty.

  543. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    The Yanks are not getting Haren for anything short of the whole farm. Beane said today that he doesnt have to trade anyone and if you want a deal then blow him away. It would take atleast Hughes, Melky, Tabata, Horne. He would probably ask for Kennedy or Cano also.

  544. Jimmy December 1st, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    Johan puts this team over the top.

  545. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Boston is in no position to take a chance on dealing either Lester or Buchholz. They won’t admit it but Curt “Table for One” Schilling and Tim “Creaky back” Wakefield will be 41+ in 2008 and their careers could go downhill quickly. Both have shown signs of it in recent years.

  546. Bob C December 1st, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Santanas Stats At Fenway & Yankees Stadium

    Fenway Park: 6.89 ERA over 15.2 innings

    Yankee Stadium: 1.17 ERA over 40 innings

  547. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    bottom line,

    the redsox have been yankee wannabes since they gave away ruth. they are just now tasting what we have had all along and won’t be happy till they reach the pinnacle of the numbers we have achieved. they have a long way to go replacing us as the #1 franchise in sports history. A One Hit Wonder if you ask me. They are a manny or a papi away from extinction and they arent getting any younger.

  548. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Matt: Excellent point.

  549. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Boston Dave I’m serious, everyone talks like it’s something to panick about, our prospect have beaten every level the only reason people are so scared is the thought of Johan to Boston but even so whichever team he ends up in, he’s one SP a damn good one but not unbeatable.

    No one knows what Schilling will be, Lester again through a whole season what is he..just some thought of the stop panicking some damn much, worst case we keep our kids which other teams have shown extreme interests

  550. kissbeavis December 1st, 2007 at 2:12 pm

    I’m also not buying the idea that the Sox are now light years ahead of the Yankees. (Although they’ll probably be better with Ellsbury leading off every day)

    The Yanks dug themselves a deep early hole in large part because none of their lefties hit in the first two months and their starting pitcher too often was Igawa or DeSalvo or Clippard or Chase Wright. Plus, their outfield defense of LF Matsui/ CF Damon/ RF Abreau wasn’t going to cut it with a pitching staff that doesn’t get any K’s.

    Once they stabilized the rotation and made Melky the every day CF, things turned around and they gained a lot of ground. Plus, the leftys started to hit (what changed there, I have no idea).

    Even without Santana or Pettitte, they still have enough offense to keep them in the WC hunt. And Joba just might develop into the kind of postseason shutdown ace they haven’t had in a long time. He’s certainly got the stuff for it.

  551. Drive 4-5 December 1st, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    Dandy Pettitte,

    I probably shouldn’t respond to your Andy Pettitte rant,but I can’t resist. You obviously don’t get it. Perhaps it’s because you are too young to remember Scott Brosius.

    Scott was the same age as Andy,35,when he decided he had made enough money and he could comfortably provide for his family the rest of their lives. He decided to go home and raise his kids and be a part of their lives.

    The New York Yankees have never had 2 more competitive players than Andy Pettitte or Scott Brosius. Their decisions to stop playing had nothing to do with their lack of competitiveness or being a “prima dona” or “selfish”. It was about them being men of character, family men.

  552. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    Pete:

    You’re very welcome. I’ve tried commenting on other blogs and while, yes, you have your share of trolls here, the good posters here make this such a nicer experience than any other Yankee blog out there. Let’s all keep it up, no matter if we agree or disagree on things.

  553. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:15 pm

    To get on Andy Pettite is to have no knowledge as to what this sport is about whatsoever.

  554. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    THE LOSS OF mELKY WOULD BOTHER ME TOO. wHY CANT THE TWINS BE HAPPY WITH hUGHES STRAIGHT UP. I think santana will reject any deal other than to the yanks anyway so call their bluff.

  555. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    Marc: Losing Melky would bother me greatly (i love his arm, and he’s my wife’s favorite), but I honestly think Brett Gardner could get in there and do the job. I don’t think going out there and signing a Rowand or Andruw Jones is something we should do whatsoever. Enough mercenaries.

  556. Yankee Trader December 1st, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    Looks like the Twinks are going back to Boston and asking for Bucholtz or Elsbury. My guess is they give them Bucholtz and Twins say yes. Yankees can still make playoffs if they trade for another pitcher-Haren/Peavy or Pettite comes back, and they bolster their bullpen. Damon in center would be a bad choice-might as well bring back Bernie!
    My hope here is that the Twins keep Santana until at least the trading deadline, then trade him, or just sign him to an extension now, or trade him to the NL.

  557. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    Mitch 11,

    What would the twins say if we offered just hughes. No?
    Can’t you see hank trying that tact? They could try elsewhere and maybe get a few prospects but I doubt johan would approve.

  558. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Children… a few things to remember.
    1) Santana has TOTAL control. No matter what team, what deal the Twins set up, all Santana has to do is say NO to an extension and the deal is DEAD
    2) I have been to Fenway many times and the Stadium a few. If you were a LEFTY pitcher, would you have a preference for stadiums between Fenway and Yankee stadium? (Hint: Bucky Dent chokes up 4 inches, and still hits one over the monster)
    3) Has anyone every heard Santana mention what team he wanted to play for? (Hint: Both his manager and Tori Hunter specifically said Santana wants to play for the Yankees)
    (HIS MANAGER!)

    Lets say you are Santana. You want money (doesn’t everyone), you prefer Yankee Stadium to Fenway, and you would like to be a Yankee. The Yanks offer (XXX) dollars PLUS Phil, Melky and Horne to sign you.

    QUESTION:
    If INSTEAD you become a FA, and the Yankees don’t have to give up ANYONE, instead of (XXX), WHAT MIGHT THEY PAY YOU?

    The Sox were willing to let Lowell go (the WS MVP after a career year) because they did not want to pay for ONE additional year at $12.5m. You think they will lose 2 kids AND pay him $150 million?

    Hell, as an FA, the Yanks might go 6/$165.

  559. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Master Wangkee
    December 1st, 2007 at 11:28 am
    I prefer Cano in the deal instead of Hughes. They could replace Cano with Sanchez and not lose much production. I wonder what the Twins would want attached to Cano…

    __________________________________________________
    What Sanchez are you referring to?

  560. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    Hank if you read these blogs I just have to say you choked on the twins. You folded on the twins threat to send him to boston and now that will cost us necessary prospects.

  561. Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    Brandon

    Your rotation has three kids with 13 M.L.B. starts between them (Hughes, Joba, and Horne), two of them have ZERO M.L.B. starts (Joba and Horne), and one of them is your ace (assuming you listed them in 1-5 order which you probably did).

    Your rotation doesn’t have one guy who’s done a damn thing in the postseason save the one game Wang won in ’05 and his good performance in a tough-luck loss to Detroit where he was outdueled by Justin Verlander last year.

    Your rotation doesn’t have a bonafide ace.

    Santana > Joba
    Beckett > Haren
    Schilling > Hughes
    Matsuzaka Horne

    Santana and Beckett alone negate Hughes.

    B.t.w. Mussina making $11M next year with 10-and-5 status overriding his full no-trade clause is in your bullpen I guess.

    Take your lips off the bong bro.

  562. jandek's ghost December 1st, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    we should all hope that the offer of hughes to the twins does not represent a return to the stupid, short-sighted, impulsive ways of big george at his worst. between the a-rod craziness, the public bluster, and, now, the apparent usurping of the GM’s authority, the steinbrenner sons appear to be following in the lead-footed steps of their daddy, and this is not a good thing. i can appreciate that the sons want to win the big one for daddy before daddy passes on, but to try and do that at the long-term expense of the team is just plain dumb, and only helps to reinforce the notion that, to the arrogant, spoiled little rich boys called the steinbrenner sons, the ny yankees is just another toy in the toy box and belongs simply, and solely, to them and not the fans. it doesn’t take a 3-digit IQ to know that the red sox do not need johan santana,would not be enamored of the thought of shelling out $20+mil per season for him, and would not give up their best young players to get him. why the yankees would be willing to give up their best young talent to get santana anyway is beyond me. this isn’t cashman, folks. it’s the bluster brothers all the way.

  563. Ed FL December 1st, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    GreenBeret is right. We have been speculating for about a week now, about the Santana trade. We only hear rumors from all 2 participants, NYY, Twins,Boston. Time to chill out. IIMO, we are going to be surprised at the end of negotiations.Cashman is aproffesional who doesn’t listen to us bloggers. We can only specualate which is fine, I do it myself. But at least in my case, lockdown.

  564. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    Dandy Pettite:

    Contrary to what you may think, the world is not set to explore in November of 2008. We can plan for past that as well.

  565. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    damnit….i meant “explode”

    the world is not meant to EXPLODE.

    there goes that witty comment. :)

  566. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    johan will approve whatever team offers him a hefty enough contract extension, just like every other mercenary out there. The KIDS are the ones who truly WANT to be Yankees…keep them and give them the $$$ down the road.

    Sox are bluffing their interest, and if they’re not, let them sink all their resources into johan…sadly, Cash and Hank are being played though; and I think they’re afraid to let that happen.

  567. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    Mitchell: Maybe so, but you gave us a nice pun instead!

  568. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Rebecca: That’s the spirit!

  569. Lauren December 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    I’m SO glad to see people are also against this. after what they did to joe and the AWFUL way they handled the PayRod situation; something just doesn’t feel right about giving up melky and hughes. i PRAY this doesn’t happen.

    it reeks of hank btw, he’s picking up where george left off in just handing away the future. i don’t believe that cashman would ever serve up such a coveted player as hughes. joba has a lot of character and talent but i just feel that hughes will be a 20 game winner within 2 years, i *really* think he’s THAT good.

    and as far as what the red sox are offering (or more importantly, NOT offering) its a trap – we obviously have the better offer on the table now, so i really fear this will be a reality sooner than we think.

    (I hope I am dead wrong.)

    SAVE THE KIDS – DON’T DO IT !!

  570. rodg12 December 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    No Bobcat sightings today? Wish he’d drop in to give an update.

  571. RosterRooster December 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    If this bus drops below 50, its gonna explore.

  572. Catherine December 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    I am just so disappointed. I thought we would’ve stood strong.

  573. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    First A-Rod now the Twins…Hank and Cash are getting played left and right. There is no way we should do this deal at this point. Can’t give up hughes and Melky. Just too much. It will expose our tired outfielders and ruin the mix in the clubhouse. We developed these guys this far lets stick it out.

  574. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Bronx Bomber,
    Do you really think Hank and Cash are that stupid?

    They know Santana wants to come here and that he will reject Boston’s offer. He doesnt want to pitch in that bandbox and besides they wont pay him or give 6 years. I say wait till he’s a free agent and bank on him rejecting all trade offers.

  575. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    *prays for the deal to fall apart*

  576. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pm

    there is no deal

  577. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 2:39 pm

    Dandy… You forgot Wang. If the Sox give up Buchholz to get Santana, here’s what you have.

    Haren is a TRADE that will cost youth. No good. I posted a tasty list of 2009 FAs. My guess is we buy Sabathia

    2009 – 2013:
    Santana vs Sabathia …. 3 wins Sox
    Beckett vs Wang……… 1 wins Sox (Career ERA+: Beckett/116 Wang/119)
    Dice-K vs Hughes…….. 2 Wins Yankees
    Lester vs Joba………. 2 Wins Yankees
    ??? vs IPK/Horne…….. ????????

    PLEASE RESPOND with your NUMBER of wins, head-2-head as above
    PS. I can’t see Schrill or Wake being anything but league average in 2009.

    REMEMBER: This is not about 2008. This is about 2008-2013. So consider the age of our guys and their guys, and who is likely to improve or decline

  578. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    Now is when Joe G needs to step up and say “keep the kids, I’ll take care of developing them” If he is the longterm guy for this managing job he needs to step up and be a steward for the future.

  579. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    The Twins are not letting Johan get to free agency..they will deal him, if not now, then at the deadline and get a good package for him.

    Boston has been paying for big game lately and cohersing others to stay for hometown discounts (Lowell, Schilling, even Ortiz is under-valued pay-wise).

    Also, Johan would not turn down a Sox offer for a few less million than a, at-the-time, non-existent Yankee offer. At the moment, they are the champs…not us.

  580. Kelli in Conn. December 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Many baseball organizations do the best they can and are liked or at least respected.
    In Boston’s case, neither the city, the team, and above all the fans, are likeable. It’s like a show in the last several years of being hostile, delusional, and ignorant.
    When it reaches the point of fans going to Patriots, Celtics, or Bruins events and hearing loud chants of “Yankees Suck”, then they’ve reached new heights of having an inferiority complex pent up over generations of losing. They simply don’t know how to deal with some winning.

  581. The Bronx Stop December 1st, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    Old Yanks Fan-
    Are you assuming that the Indians lose Sabathia and the Red Sux sign him?

  582. CB December 1st, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    At this point the twins will in all likelihood know if Santana is willing to play in Boston.

    For Santana to allow the twins to go this far into negotiations while knowing he definitely won’t play for the Sox would be really screwing the the Twins.

    For all accounts he’s not that kind of guy and has told minnesota he’s going to make it possible for them to get the best deal possible for him.

    If he’s dealt to boston the negotiations could fall apart. But don’t count on it.

  583. The Bronx Stop December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Bronx Bomber-
    I think you are really underestimating the Yankees, Cashman, and Steinbrenner.

  584. Therston December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    I am very glad to see there are so many people who see this deal as potentially bad and the game boston and the twins are playing is a game which hank or chasmna should not fall for…no reason to give in to this deal…johan has twins by the horns…we dont need to add any pitching with wang, hughes, joba, kennedy, horne and other prime pitchers available soon. no need to rush into a horrible mistake.

  585. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    You know, this blog was less crazy when A-Rod opted out.

  586. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    Kelli,

    It sounds like the saux were happier as losers than winners.

  587. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    Someone send this whole friggin thread to Cash’s email. Let him know what his most ardent fans are thinking.

  588. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    Let’s say johan wins another Cy Young. What do you think his value will be then?

  589. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    C.C. Sabathia is a FA in 2009. Who do think will offer him the biggest contract IF the Sox get Santana? The Yankees will make Sabathia a very rich man.

    Santana has a FULL NO TRADE CONTRACT!
    The Twins CAN NOT TRADE HIM without his consent!
    The Twins CAN NOT TRADE HIM without his consent!
    The Twins CAN NOT TRADE HIM without his consent!
    The Twins CAN NOT TRADE HIM without his consent!
    Get it????

    IF SANTANA WANTS TO BE A FA, HE WILL BE A FA.
    THIS IS NOT AN OPINION.
    IT IS IN HIS CONTRACT!

    2009 FAs – (Age/ERA+ last 3 years)
    A.J. Burnett (32/116)
    Rich Harden (27/130ish)
    John Lackey (30/134)
    Jake Peavy (30/128)
    Brad Penny (31/120)
    C.C. Sabathia (28/129)
    Ben Sheets (30/121)

  590. Rich December 1st, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    After A.Jones signs with the Royals get DeJesus to play cf and Greinke for the bullpen and we are good to go. Next year when they overpay for CC Sabathia to open the new park with 2 lefty aces what will it matter…..money to burn so they do.

  591. The Bronx Stop December 1st, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    Therston- The only reason we are even willing to give up Hughes in this trade right now is because the potential for Johan to go to the Red Sux for Crisp and Lester. We have to be aggressive to keep Johan away from the Sux and if we can’t, we have to at least get them to give up Ellsbury.

  592. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    Hank is a blowhard who allowed ARod to shake him down, as Buster Olney illustrates here:

    For example: While the Yankees forced Alex Rodriguez to come to them without Scott Boras, they still gave him a record-setting raise. Many industry executives think the Yankees were in position to force Rodriguez to settle for a deal in the range of $200 million-$225 million, but the Yankees signed Rodriguez to a deal that could be worth anywhere from $275 million to $314 million.

    Cashman has one year left on his contract and in his mind he has to stop allowing Boston to trump him.

    They’ve already allowed Boston and Minney to mandate Hughes be put into any deal….

  593. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    Cy Young. Who cares if he wins it. A-Rod has how many MVPs and he has not won bupkus in the playoffs. Santana has some Cy Youngs and no rings to show. We have to build this thing long term. Defense and pitching preferably young and hungry.

  594. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Bomber you may be right on Cash needing to win in a contract year. His managing of the minors alone the last 3-4 years should be enough for them to extend him so he can think long term. Hank is screwing that up too!

  595. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Minny could be posturing. I say they try again in July, Santana is coming to Yankees for 2 draft picks.

  596. Phil December 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    If the Sox get Santana, they won’t necessarily be the best team in baseball in any year. The Braves had 3 Hall of Famers for their whole primes on their pitching staff and still only one 1 time. The A’s have had overwhelming pitching since the late `90′s and have never won a thing.

  597. Rich December 1st, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Yesterday Olney says Loretta is on his way….today as per MLB trade rumors he says they havent talked in over a month.

  598. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    A lot of you are either ignorant or just not realizing that if the Twins and Red Sox agree to players, there still is not a deal.

    Johan has a no trade clause. Theo can give him Ellsbury, Bucholtz and Ortiz and if Johan doesn’t waive his no trade clause (which will only be waived if he gets the extension he’s looking for), he can reject the deal.

    Johan will not a take a penny less than Barry Zito who received 126 million from SF last season.

    That’s the starting point. If the Red Sox offer him 6 years for 120 million he will reject it. It’s less than what a lesser pitcher received.

    If you really think the Red Sox are going to trade some of their best prospects then pay Johan 150 million you’re nuts.

    They are bluffing.

    I think the Yanks should call their bluff and back channel to Johan’s agent (an old Red Sox trick) that whatever the Red Sox offer them, the Yankees will top it significantly if he waits and declines a trade to Boston.

    That should/would be enough to keep Johan out of Beantown.

    If he rejects the Boston offer and uses the no trade, the Yankees can offer whatever they want and the Twins will have to take it or risk losing the pitcher to free agency.

    He isn’t going to waive his no trade unless it gets him to the team and more importantly, the contract he wants.

    The Yankees can still win this by a large margin I think.

    Even though the Red Sox outbid everyone on Dice K, doesn’t mean they are going to go 150 million on another pitcher.

    They only make deals where they feel like they screwed the player a little. They screwed Dice K in salary and wrote off the posting fee as cost of doing business since it didn’t affect their salary cap/luxury tax.

    Also remember, they are not getting a new stadium and they can’t keep adding more seats to that place. There’s a limit to what they will pay, especially know that their positional players and offense are getting old and they will lose that edge if they don’t develop from within.

    They’re bluffing. They won’t give Johan the contract he wants.

    No way.

    Call their bluff, Hank/Cash.

  599. marc December 1st, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    These reporters are paid to stir things up. They can make up any rumour they want if people will listen. Don’t pay any attention to that man behind the curtain.

  600. dale baker December 1st, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    nice rotation there thurston, a #2 and 4 maybes. does anyone thing that barring injuries santana wont win 18+ with the yankees offense? We dont even know if the big 3 can give 200 innings without blowing out. The yankees need an ace and its time to go get one. Joba, Melky and a minor league pitcher.

  601. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    Do you know how horrible the outfield d will be without Melky patroling center?

    Matsui, Damon, Abreu?? Possibly the worst outfield in the league.

    Keep these kids…call Boston and Johan’s bluff. If Sox ante up and sink huge money into Johan; they’ll be playing over their heads and it will come back to bite them.

    We’ll still have enough prospects and $$$ to build from within or get another johan-like starter via trade or free agency.

    More wisdom from Buster:

    Something to consider: If the Yankees were to sign Santana to a six-year extension for $22 million a year, on average, then in 2014 — the last year of the deal — the Yankees would be paying a 35-year-old Santana and a 38-year-old Alex Rodriguez a combined $52 million. This is part of the reason why I am sure that some of the baseball operations within the Yankees’ organization are gnashing their teeth over this situation, and would greatly prefer to keep Hughes and other prospects, and go make a trade for the cheaper Dan Haren.

  602. Dandy Pettitte or Candyass Pettitte December 1st, 2007 at 2:57 pm

    Hey “Drive 4-5″

    1. I’m 32 myself and a fan since 1982 so shove your trying to tell me I just became a fan a few years ago.

    2. Brosius retired at 35. Well by 2001′s end, he was not nearly as valuable as Pettitte was at 2001′s end as 2002-03 Pettitte showed us. Brosius was always a role player, a second-tier guy whereas Pettitte was and still is a first-tier guy. Brosius was much more easy to replace and he was replaced by a good player named Robin Ventura who posted a better 2002 than 2000 or 2001 Scott Brosius. Also he didn’t spring retirement on the Yanks after 2001, he let the know it was it for him before the season ended. Pettitte’s taking 3 months or more to say what he could’ve said as early as 11/1 or 12/1. Seriously, how does it take 3 months to make up your mind when you sit around the house all day?
    This is matter of how important Pettitte is to the 2008 Yanks chance of winning it all. Did he come back to win or make another $16M and retire? Cashman should’ve offered 2 years $32M then.

    3. This men of character and family men crap is just that because 1. these guys are away from their families the 81 days they play away games plus any travel days assuming they don’t go home during them or after roadtrips before heading to the home team site 2. you can be a man of character by playing one more year esp. if your team’s archrival just got one of the best pitchers in baseball to join another one, you got knocked out of the first round in embarrassing fashion again, and your team got spanked for the third straight year 3. there is such a thing as sacrifice for your husband and dad who’s given you and future generations of the family lifetime financial security.

    Yes, Pettitte has a right to retire, but I have a right to say he is a quitter which to me is someone who doesnt finish the goal. Yes, he helped the Yanks win four World Series, but get this: he came back, they didn’t win, and this loss was the most brutal of them all. How do you hang it up after such a defeat? It’s saying you don’t have the heart or balls to go for it one more time and yeah, stick it to Boston if the opportunity arises in the A.L.C.S. Let’s say he returns next year, says this is it for him, they don’t win, and he retires. Fine -at least he gave it one last college try. When you accept if not demand a $16M player’s option for 2008, sorry, it’s unwritten you are 90% coming back not 90% retiring as who’d pass that up and why’d you ask for that? Certainly not to prop up your ego by turning it down. The Yanks guarantee you $16M and you turn it down and take your sweet ass time making up your mind? He’s coming off like who he thinks he is and it’s time he stop being a candyass and tell the truth: I’m a real competitor who wants to come back or I’m a primadonna who only cares about his comfort and what my family wants yet I’m a grown-ass man who puts food on the table and clothes on their backs. I can’t believe his family would think he’s neglecting them if he decides to pitch for one final year cuz if they do, they need to get with the real world. He makes another $16M which alone sets up generations of Pettittes. And I’d think he’s doing what he loves to do one last time. He retires now, he may regret it for the rest of his life. Why live a life of regret cuz your friggin’ wife is a N.Y.C.-hating religious nut?

  603. Irabu's Son December 1st, 2007 at 2:59 pm

    Any chance the Yankees could include Damon in the package instead of Melky, and then pay a good portion of his salary?

  604. Rich December 1st, 2007 at 3:00 pm

    they should sign Kris Benson…..Im sure the Yanks would love th have Anna around. j/k

  605. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    perhaps rocket is whispering in andy’s ear again

  606. Catherine December 1st, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    Can I just point out how unique Yankee fans are?

    We are sitting here saying we would rather keep our 21 yr old, for the most part unproven, pitcher Phil Hughes who we regard as our adopted son and our goofy, iron-armed, 23 year old smiling Melky Cabrera rather than have the best pitcher in baseball.

    I agree. That’s why Yankees fans are the best fans in the world. Say what you want, Yankee fans would give up an A-Rod and a Santana to grow their own Mo, Jeter, Andy, and Bernie

  607. jonathan December 1st, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    This is making me sick. I cannot believe how much the yankees are being played. I DO NOT care if the red sox get santana. Keep philip hughes. i truly want to vommit in my mouth from this. Cashmoney, this cannot be you can it? What happened to holding onto the youth? Please get out of this now, keep the kids, and say to boston, santana, and the twins, sc-ew you.

  608. Maverick December 1st, 2007 at 3:03 pm

    Santana would have told the Twins by now if he was going to veto a trade there. It is very very very ignorant to say that the Twins are going to spend weeks working out a deal and then Santana will say “Oh I don’t want to play in Boston b/c I want to go to NY” Do you guys really see that happening??? Santana would not screw over the Twins by making them take a bad deal just so he can be moved. If the Twins get a offer that satisfies them he will go there and work out an extension. Everyone that is working on the deal knows he wants 25mil/yr for 6-7 years.

  609. jonathan December 1st, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    why are the yankees always so afraid of the unknown? Would we have built a dynasty in the 90′s if we were so afraid of the unknown quantity? I am so disgusted.

  610. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:06 pm

    Maverick,

    This is all hearsay. How does anyone profess to know what is really going on?

  611. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    Sounds like a high stakes game of poker and Johan holds the cards.

  612. Catherine December 1st, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    We should get a Save the Youth petition and email it to the New York Post.

  613. Maverick December 1st, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    It is stupid to keep saying Santana can veto a trade. Technically yes he can but any team that is going to spend weeks working out a trade knows exactly how much money he wants and they are going to pay him. Why would someone work out a deal and then throw him a lowball offer? Does that really make sense to you.

  614. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pm

    1 win – 3 losses….what is this?

    Santana’s career postseason record. That’s enough for me we already have a guy like this his name is Wang.

  615. Maverick December 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pm

    And I’m sure the Twins have already asked him what team he would go to and which teams he won’t

  616. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:10 pm

    How do we even know the redsox are making these offers because some shill reporter said so?

  617. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:11 pm

    Bronx Bomber – Hank is a blowhard who allowed ARod to shake him down, as Buster Olney illustrates here
    ———————————————
    I’m sorry, but those are not the facts.
    1) Two different lifetime financial analysts did a study on what ARod was worth. I posted a link to one of these 2 days ago. Both concluded that if the Yanks continue to reach the PS regularly, that ARod is worth over $300m.

    2) The numbers Onlney is reporting were NOT an offer. They were, at BEST, starting numbers of a negotiation, that had NOT yet taken place, that were leaked to the newspapers.

    3) ARods GUARANTEED salary is $27.5m/yr. This is MUCH LESS then the Santana Deal we are currently talking about
    ($25m/yr salary + $5m (replace Melky) + ?m (replace Horne)

    4) The $30m bonus is triggered ONLY when hit breaks Mays record of 660 HRs and comes to frution when he passes Bonds.
    WHEN HE, A YANKEE, BECOMES THE ALL TIME HR LEADER
    WHEN HE HOLDS THE MOST DISTINCTIVE RECORD IN SPORTS.
    Do you know what thay is worth in dollars?
    After they pay ARod his $30m, do you know how much the Yankees will make on ARods record?
    If you are a Yankee Fan, what it that worth to YOU?
    To have a Yankee hold that record?

    When did the Babe retire with 714? Did people talk about that record for over 50 years until Hank broke it? Kids will be buying ARod sweatshirts 50 years from now. People in 3rd world countries will be wearing ARod T shirts 50 years from now.

    Who do you trust more? Olney or 2 professional analysts who did detailed studies documenting where dollars come from, and why.

    By the way, if the Yank go to the PS, the franchise makes 20+ million. If they go to the WS, they make close to $40m. Those numbers go up EVERY year as more and more people buy cable sports subscriptions.

  618. Maverick December 1st, 2007 at 3:12 pm

    That really has nothing to do with what I said. I said if they complete a trade he is not going to veto it. I said nowhere who made what offer and what was offered. I just think its stupid for people to say that he will only go to NY and will veto a trade elsewhere. That is being delusional I would say

  619. CB December 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    marc,

    At the same time you don’t know that the sox haven’t made an offer.

    none of us does.

    but many have very definite beliefs as to what is going to happen: that the yankees are chumps, that boston has no intention of wanting santana, that the twins couldn’t think lester is better than kennedy, etc.

  620. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    Catherine – Can I just point out how unique Yankee fans are?
    ——————————————
    Don’t forget Jorge!

  621. Lauren December 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    LC, YankeeLuv, Yankee Jay, Therston and Whozat – great posts.

    Haren is the better value of the two – why are the yankees going through this?!?!? The Sox are full of sh*t and theo is having his way with us right now. why is hank such an idiot?

  622. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    Again, even if Boston isn’t bluffing, LET THEM HAVE JOHAN! Its a PHENOMENAL investment for them and once Manny leaves and Ortiz breaks down they will be hamstrung financially and in dire need of big time offense.

    Some people are just so covetous…johan guarantees the Yanks or Sox, nothing! He’s pitched for a team that’s featured a very good closer, an MVP, and a batting champ the past few years…what have they won?

    Yanks easily could have beaten Boston and won it all THIS YEAR with the kids. No need to vary from the plan…keep developing these guys and making sound financial decisions and we’ll be back on top soon.

    Let Boston get greedy and offer mammoth contracts to big game mercanaries year after year…they’re only doing so out of their defining inferiority complex.

  623. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    The quest for Santana really does present a dilemma. Do we stay the course or go for the ace? Would love to know what Cash is thinking.

  624. Scooter McGavin December 1st, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    The only way I do this trade is if it means Andy coming back.

  625. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    mel
    December 1st, 2007 at 1:48 pm
    Dandy,

    If what you’re saying is true about Andy being Seventh Day Adventist, then that explains a lot.

    ________________________________________________
    Not that it matters when an idiot pumps out garbage like this (can’t expect much from a troll with the mind of a 12 year old, but Andy Pettitte is a Baptist.

  626. Catherine December 1st, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    “I’ve always had the mind-set of coming up and playing for the Yankees,” said Hughes. “It was an exciting change in the philosophy of the way it used to be. Looking at the guys who came up this year – me, Joba and Ian – we can help in the rotation for years to come, which would be cool. Not many times do you get three guys 21 or 22 years old to fill three spots in the same rotation. “You can never assume things are going to happen, but it’s fun to think about the way things could be.”
    - Phil Hughes

  627. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:22 pm

    I myself was looking forward to another year battling boston. Would almost like to see what happens if they got him. We would actually become the full-fledged underdog.

  628. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:23 pm

    “Oh I don’t want to play in Boston b/c I want to go to NY” Do you guys really see that happening??? Santana would not screw over the Twins by making them take a bad deal just so he can be moved.”
    ———————————-
    So, you believe that Santana, who currently works for an owner that is richer then Steinbreener and YES put together, who offered Santana 4/$80 but would NOT offer him 6/$120 (which he said he would accept), will spend 6 years of his life, maybe for the rest of his carrer, playing for less money, for a team that is the TWINS choice and not his?

    Wow… He must really be a nice guy.

  629. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 3:23 pm

    Old Yanks fan, your points and probably those of the analysts speak more to the perceived value of Arod’s contract. Olney’s point doesn’t address arod’s worth…it just addresses, and accurately so, the fact that Hank could have signed him for less than he did (and subsequently benefit even MORE from the HR record, etc.)

    Arod came crawling back b/c of the 4 or 5 teams who could afford him, only one (Anaheim) expressed any interest in him whatsoever.

    Yanks could have really sent him a message and gotten him for a lot less than they did….but they decided to take care of him and pay up.

    Hopefully it doesn’t screw with the already delicate payroll :chemistry ratio.

    PS–I could care less about who holds that record, a Yankee or a BALCO monster, at this point. I’m sure someone will implicate Arod having been involved with steroids at some point too….its all tarnished. Build me a team that wins some championships, thats all I care about.

  630. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:24 pm

    Talk about role reversal. Let them walk a day in our shoes.
    It wont be easy.

  631. gargoyle December 1st, 2007 at 3:25 pm

    Not only did ARod get the best of Cashman but Mariano Rivera bent him over pretty good getting a 3 year deal when 2 years would have been enough.

    Now the Twins the Red Sox and Santana will end up steamrolling Casshman and Hank. I see a 7 year contract on the horizon.

  632. Maverick December 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    If you read my other post it said that no team is going to go through all this and work out a trade and present him with a low ball offer. In any sport when has a person been traded with a window for negotiation and a deal not been done? I can’t think of one and I can think of plenty of trades that give those windows

  633. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    RosterRooster: Love it.

    Phil @ 2:52: Exactly. It’s more than a collection of big names, isn’t it?

    Rich: For god’s sake, don’t bring up Anna Benson again. Did anyone ever read her blog?

  634. Catherine December 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm

    Guys, honestly I feel we can get the attention of the Yankees FO

    I emailed the New York Post, they are our best bet because they will run controversial headlines

    Just write them a quick email, even if it just says SAVE PHIL HUGHES. It’s not too late, dont underestimate the power of Yankee fans…

    http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/postopinion.htm

    scroll and click “Send a Letter”

    What can it hurt?

  635. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    Maverick,

    How do you know he’s not going to veto it.

    When, ever, have the Red Sox set the market for a premium player/contract?

    They are an organization that prides itself on winning every deal they make, including negotiating player salaries.

    I’m sure they think once they get down to nuts and bolts with Johan, Johan will take what they offer him.

    There is no way for them to know that he won’t veto a trade to them based on their extension offer since they haven’t actually began any sort of negotiation.

    I do not think for one second that the Red Sox will offer Johan a 6-7 year deal at 25 million a year.

    Not only will they be setting the market for a top starting pitcher, they will then affect their entire salary structure. Beckett will demand and get the same money. Papelbon will do the same.

    The reason why the Red Sox rarely pay top market numbers is because they don’t want their own players to use it against them.

    They play hardball in every negotiation they make.

    They won’t set the market over 20 million on a starting pitcher. I just don’t believe it.

    They may think that they can sell Johan on Boston at a reasonable 19 million a season.

    They’ll be wrong.

    If he vetoes that trade/contract, do you think that the Twins will stop trying to trade him?

    They still will do better than the 2 draft pick scenario if he goes to FA in a trade with the team he approves of.

    I will be stunned. Stunned. If Boston makes the deal and gives him the extension that he will agree to.

    Boston’s front office is a bunch of arrogant back slappers about how they win every deal they make.

  636. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    “I just think its stupid for people to say that he will only go to NY and will veto a trade elsewhere. That is being delusional I would say”
    ————————————
    I didn’t say he would. I have no idea what he will do. Nancy Drew told the Dodgers he was staying, and what in a Red Sox uniform a month later.

    What I said is: Santana CAN veto any trade if he WANTS to.
    What I said is: Santana will make more $$ as a FA then in trade.

    Do you disagree with those 2 statements?

  637. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven
    December 1st, 2007 at 3:26 pm
    RosterRooster: Love it.

    Phil @ 2:52: Exactly. It’s more than a collection of big names, isn’t it?

    Rich: For god’s sake, don’t bring up Anna Benson again. Did anyone ever read her blog?

    _______________________________________________
    There were words on there? I never noticed them. Picture must have blocked my vision.

  638. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    Will the world come to an end if redsox get santana? Hank is not George. George would have had santana by now. Hank is not to be trifled with. He will overpay but not be taken advantage of. Remember life goes on and 09 is a huge free agent year.

  639. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    I agree gargoyle this is becoming a prison shower scene and Hank and Cash are getting the soap.

  640. nyyankfan December 1st, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    For God’s sake can we PLEASE keep our only can’t miss starting pitching prospect in years? You are exactly right, Phil Hughes may immediately come within a win or two of Santana and at a much lower price and we do not lose Melky and another pitcher in the process. It is much more rewarding watching someone from your farm do it. Kennedy OK, Hughes NO WAY. We have been waiting for and hearing about this guys for years. Santana want to play for the Yanks and has a no-trade. He can leverage a deal that includes Kennedy and not Hughes. Don’t blink now please.

  641. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    I’m suprised we haven’t heard more news yet today from the Twins. Or Redsox.

  642. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:32 pm

    bphill, they’re too busy not talking to each other.

  643. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    The plug should have been pulled on this deal the second time that Smith decided he wanted more.

  644. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    Next week will tell the tale when the big boys get together for a staredown. If they rub Hank the wrong way he will tell them where to go.

  645. 56Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    By putting Hughes on the table, the Yankees have basically sent him packing somewhere. If the Twins accept the trade, then Phil goes there. If Santana goes to the Red Sox, the Yankees will likely go hard after Haren. There is no way that the Yankees will go with 3 essentially rookie pitchers after over spending on Arod, Posada, and Mo. They want to win now. Billy Beane knows this and will not settle for a package headed by Kennedy – he will demand Hughes. So at this point it comes down to who do you want for Hughes – Santana or Haren?

  646. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    …Dude, guys, it’s not like anything’s final yet.

    Even if it is, I mean…you’re going to complain about Johan Santana?!

    Would you have all cried about sending Andy Pettitte to Atlanta for Greg Maddox or Tom Glavine in their heyday?

  647. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    Really Marc. I wish he’d tell me where to go like he did with A-Rod for 314mill. Puleazzze, the guy is becoming the laughing stock of the league front offices in his first offseason.

  648. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:39 pm

    56Bomber: I think we’ve got about four-five years now of player development which should be telling you that the focus is not all “win now.” Santana is the nice ass walking down the street, and he’s got the Yankees turning their heads and not focusing on the plan they should be sticking to.

    The trading block is part of life. Just because Hughes is on it now, it doesn’t mean he’s an absolute goner if this trade falls through because, if it’s dumb to trade him for Santana, it’s downright asenine to trade him for Dan Haren….and I like Dan Haren a lot.

  649. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Rebecca: Keep it up and I’m going to have to hug you.

  650. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    yeah right he should have low balled arod, give me a break.
    its basically the same offer they made as an extensiob. arod tried the free agent amkt, can you blame him/borass?

  651. christheyankeesfan December 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    When it’s game 7 of the ALCS against the Red Sox and the Red Sox throw Beckett who do we have to match up against him?
    Thats why we need to get Santana. As long as we don’t have to give up Melky, Kennedy, AND Hughes it’s worth it.

  652. CB December 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    For everyone who knows the yankees are just getting taken of advantage here -

    Do you think its possible they may have access to some information you don’t.

    Just the possiblity.

    For instance – both Bobby Abreu and Santana have the same agent, Peter Greenberg.

    Do you think the yankees may have asked Abreu to find out through “back channels” what Santana is thinking?
    I don’t know if they have but I’d say there is a decent probability that they’ve put out those feelers?

    Maybe they know that while Santana likes New York he’d be ok with boston if they paid him $140-150 million?

    Just maybe they have some insight into the boston “bluff” that isn’t public?

  653. OC Yankees Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Dandy Pettitte –

    Watch yourself . . . There are a bunch of us “religious nuts” out here and we might start praying for you. You certainly wouldn’t want that . . .

    As for Pettitte owing you and the Yankees something . . . That doesn’t happen until he signs a contract. Then he owes his employer everything he’s got. And if Pettitte is known for anything, it is giving his all. It sounds like integrity to me if Pettitte won’t sign that contract because his heart isn’t in it.

    And you wonder why guys like Pettitte think twice about coming back when they have to put up with spew like you’ve been shoveling?

    Get a clue . . .

  654. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    GLove and Old Yanks Fan – I agree with you guys completely. The case you have laid out re: Santana and Boston are logical. I think Boston is bluffing, and if the worst thing is we keep Hughes, well that’s not so bad.

    As far as Boston getting Santana, I would be really surprised if that happened, for the exact reasons that you guys have laid out. They’re not giving up their young and cheap talent, and they’re not paying the big bucks. They’ve never shown an inclination to do that, and with the financial trouble that J.Henry is supposedly having (poor hedge fund business and nasty divorce) I don’t think they’re going to start now.

    Patience is a virtue.

  655. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Chris: This is more than a two-team league, and any fan of any team is reaching if they’re thinking it’s guaranteed that they’re going to be in the playoffs, much less in Game 7 of the ALCS.

    I’d still trade Hughes for a 1978 Ron Guidry…. ;)

  656. #9 December 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pm

    Melky, Hughes & Kennedy??!!

    http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=279

    The Yankees and Red Sox are the two main teams talking to the Twins about lefthander Johan Santana as of now. The Yankees have included righthander Phillip Hughes to its offer, which is believed to be Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy.

  657. Joe from Long Island December 1st, 2007 at 3:45 pm

    CB – We fans are on the outside looking in. We can only try to be logical with the information that we do have. This is where we have to trust Cash & Co., who have a lot more information. Sometimes, it’s difficult to do that, but we have no choice.

    Just be skeptical of what we read. Remember when all the impeachable sources said Joe Torre was going down to Tampa to accept an new contract?

  658. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven: They call me Optimist Prime/Delusional for a reason :-D

    No way the Yankees are including BOTH Hughes and Ian.

  659. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:48 pm

    That Hughes/IPK thing just sounds like a clueless reporter. Then again, we’re all a bunch of clueless fans.

    Would we laugh our asses off if a third surprise team were to pull this all off?

  660. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:49 pm

    I just see Santana fitting in w/ NY and the redsox not outbidding us enough to change his mind. And I don’t see why we have to have him today!
    Why not wait it out and save the youngsters?
    Can anybody refute that?

  661. defense matters December 1st, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    while it might not be logical I want to see what all the young pitchers can do. I also hope the Sox don’t get Santana, that would be difficult. Heres to hoping the Mets trade reyes for Santana.

    Please

  662. sw December 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    I wonder if Pettitte was disgusted by the efforts of his teammates last season. He was leaving Houston to play for New York in the belief that he’d be receiving a lot more run and bullpen support and early in the season the Yankees kept blowing game after game for him when he was pitching well, and same in October and they couldn’t hold a lead and score more than one run. And he always seemed to be the one to be called on whenever the Yankees were on a losing streak because no one else could get the job done. Maybe if they get Santana, Andy will see that they have a better team and a better chance to win and be persuaded to come back.

  663. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    defense matters,

    Why can’t he stay with the twins?

  664. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    the twins can and will refute that b/c they’d be assine to lose Johan for nothing. He will be traded…

    I hope he goes to baseball siberia….LA or Seattle or something. He can take Abreu with him too, for all I care.

  665. RosterRooster December 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    To be honest, i would be a very happy yankees fan if Johan ended up in LA or something.

  666. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Lavelle E. Neal III = Peter Gammons the 2nd ?

  667. CB December 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Joe from LI,

    I completely agree with you. My comments were really about the level of certainty people make statements with here.

    To say the yankees are getting “screwed” or are “idiots,” “santana would never go to boston,” etc. requires a level of certainty that seems like a big reach.

    Disgree with a move. Fine. But to somehow say that the people who are paid to run the team are “idiots” or are getting taken advantage of because they just don’t see what you see is a strange way to look at things.

    And I personally don’t want to see them trade Hughes.

  668. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Mitchell: I would. Just as long as said team isn’t in the AL East, the Angels or the Mets!

  669. LCâ„¢ December 1st, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    LOL there is NO way the Yankees include IPK as well. That writer has no idea what’s he talking about.

  670. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 3:53 pm

    As much as I hate the Mets, I would love for Johan to go to the Mets, then the Yankees don’t loose, the Redsox don’t win, and well Johan will face us maybe twice a year. The only downside is Reyes would be in the AL, but I just can’t picture Reyes in a Twins jersey.

  671. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:53 pm

    It’d be just so much easier if everything it’s hard for us Yankee fans to deal with (Mattingly, Santana, etc.) just went to LA. Can’t Hank make THAT happen?

  672. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 3:53 pm

    anyone wanna to bet next we’ll hear Jackson & Tabata is in this “BOGUS” deal

  673. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    sw,
    Are you thinking Andy might be negotiating? No one in here ever say that. He is supposedly above all that. God forbids he gets a dime more than 16mil or another year.

  674. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    Bronx Bomber – Olney’s point doesn’t address arod’s worth…it just addresses, and accurately so, the fact that Hank could have signed him for less than he did .
    ———————————
    Might I ask how Olney (or you) know this? Did he present some documentation or first hand testimony? Do you CHOOSE to accept a totally unknowlegable opinion (was Olney part of those contract meetings? Did he talk with all the other GMs?) I guess because you want to. You choose to believe that Hank (and the entire Yankee FO, who had weeks to think about this) got ‘taken’ by ARod because they are so dumb?

    I honestly wonder if people on this blog know the difference between facts, research, stats, evidence, analysis OR SOMEBODY’S OPINION
    ———————————————————-
    ARod came crawling back b/c of the 4 or 5 teams who could afford him, only one (Anaheim) expressed any interest in him whatsoever.

    I do NOT believe anyone would have given him 10 years. I am GUESSING the Yankee did this to give him plenty of time to break the record, and a year or 2 to ‘bask’ in it. Mantle was pretty ineffective his last 2 years, but people went to games to see Mantle. Keeping icons around past their time can sometimes be nice for the fans.

    Its hard to say, because he came back to the Yanks, 5 days after the negotiating timeline started. However, I would guess that the Angels would have given him 6/$175. (The Yanks are paying $165 for the first 6 years). It’s a forture, but for them, ARod might have been the difference between a numbers of PSs or not.

    I personally believe (pure opinion here) that Boras mislead ARod, and told him he would make more from the Yanks by ‘following the Boras path’. As soon as ARod saw all the shit Boras caused, he went directly to the Steinbrenners.
    ———————————————————
    Yanks could have really sent him a message and gotten him for a lot less than they did….but they decided to take care of him and pay up.

    Again, I don’t what FACT, EVIDENCE or supporting data you have to claim that they ‘gotten him for a lot less than they did’. I’d be happy to see it. Unless this is just an opinion. And yes, the Yankees took care of him. How terrible. And yes, they sent him a message. That message being “we value you, we want you to retire a Yankee, go into the HOF as a Yankee, and bring the HR record back to the Yankees.” Pretty horrible stuff. I’m ashamed to be a fan.

  675. CB December 1st, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    This is what ken rosenthal said about the third player. Doesn’t sound like it would anywhere near kennedy’s stature.

    “While there is disagreement over the third player that would be included in the deal along with Hughes and Cabrera, it is doubtful that the issue will be a deal-breaker.”

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7512024

  676. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Rebecca: The Angels could sign Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa and still somehow beat us every time.

  677. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    how can anyone say he will be traded? He will be traded if he oks the deal.

  678. 56Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven – Its just not logical to expect that the Yankees are willing to start the season with 3/5ths of their rotation being rookies – who will not physically be able to pitch a full 200 inning season. With Pettitte likely ready to retire, they almost have to go after a left handed starter – who better than Santana? Believe me, I wish that we could keep Hughes over Kennedy, but that’s not the asking price of either the Twins or the A’s. If we are gonna lose him, it might as well be for Santana and not righty Haren.

  679. DadinIowa December 1st, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    What bothers me is not Santana for Hughes. It is Santana for Hughes PLUS our starting center fielder and good prospects.

    Again, we’re a playoff team NOW. We can use our chips the the trinity a LOT better than this.

  680. pat December 1st, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Most Yankee fans want it both ways. If you want to embrace a youth movement, don’t expect to win every year. If you expect championships, you need to enhance your farm with “outsiders” and that requires you to trade away some of the homegrowns.

    I love watching the kids play and I don’t believe that anything short of a championship is a failure. The business model the Yankees have in place as well as the expectations of the Yankee fans requires a team built to win rather than a team that gives you a happy feeling watching them.

  681. marc December 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    We are in the drivers seat along with Santana. Remember we can do nothing and still get him next year.

  682. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    56Bomber: The Yanks could still have Mussina in the rotation and have IPK either start the season in AAA or in the bullpen. It’s not a given that, even without Johan, that 3/5 of the rotation will be rookies.

  683. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    This is from MLBTR….

    “UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 3pm: La Velle E. Neal III has a Santana update for us. He says the Yanks are offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy right now. If that’s for real, I think the Twins should accept. Meanwhile it sounds like the Red Sox are still pushing Coco Crisp over Jacoby Ellsbury. Neal adds that the Mets might re-consider their stance on Jose Reyes, and that the Twins would prefer to ship Santana over to the NL.”

  684. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    We’ve got to think long term here. Even if god forbid we dont win the WS in 08.

  685. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven – Ian has to be in the rotation if Pettitte does not come back. Otherwise its Igawa or some other horrendous option.

  686. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Big Joe: you mean Mike Mussina?

  687. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    56Bomber, how bout signing Sabathia next year as your lefty starter?

    Johan is not worth varying from the course….show me the $100m pitcher whose been worth the money.

    He’s Giambi, Randy Johnson, even Mussina to a lesser extent all over again. The free agent du’jour…

  688. back bench December 1st, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    christheyankeesfan

    “When it’s game 7 of the ALCS against the Red Sox and the Red Sox throw Beckett who do we have to match up against him?
    Thats why we need to get Santana. As long as we don’t have to give up Melky, Kennedy, AND Hughes it’s worth it.”
    _________________________________________________________

    Its not Hughes vs Beckett, its the Yankee line up vs Beckett. Its Hughes vs the Sox line up. I watched every game and in the 2nd half, I thought we did pretty well against the RS. With Hughes healthy, and all of the line up hopefully reporting to ST in better shape, we shouldn’t fear any match up, even against a Santana in a RS uniform (especially when he would be pitching in Boston).

  689. Doodles December 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    If the deal includes Kennedy & Hughes, Cashman was played big time.

  690. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    If Hank gives up IPK and Phil with our starting CF he is chasing and mortgaging the future without even ensuring the present. It would be reckless and only result in higher ticket prices without more championships. That rumor better not be right. It would ruin my winter completely.

  691. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    Dad, Cabrera is absolutely the most replaceable piece of this deal.

  692. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    Josh Beckett made 6.6m last year…LOL! $125m for a guy who plays once every 5 days?!

    I’ll go with the kids and invest wisely elsewhere…bullpen anyone?

  693. Jake December 1st, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    Ya, this has gotten out of hand…and what is this BS about the Twins trying to get the Red Sox to include Ellbury AND Bucholz?

    This is NOT worth it.

    If it is going to cost Boston Ellsbury and Bucholz in addition to $150 million, let em have fun with it.

    Stupid Yankees management if they allow this.

  694. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    Mitchell: But Joe Torre isn’t managing anymore, so you never know!

    Anyway, I was at a game this summer when the Yankees *gasp* actually did beat the angels1

  695. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:06 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven

    Am I missing something…I have Wang, Joba, Moose, IPK and either Santana/Hughes. Who else would be put in instead of IPK. Not trying to be a wiseass here, just think IPK has to be part of that group.

  696. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    Bx Bomber,
    That is exactly why the saux are not paying santa money

  697. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    That link from MLBTR…is the same one from that clueless reporter we are all referring to from Minnesota. So who knows. Tim Dierkes doesn’t post bull on his page, could be true. I hope not.

  698. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    This writer obviously knows nothing!! 2 days ago a “birdie” told him the Twins were close with Boston to a deal for B prospects. The Twins GM could be calling this writer every day we need to get more out of the Yanks say we are close with Boston. I am waiting to hear the Yanks are offering Joba, Cano, Kennedy and Hughes. Oh please. It is a bunch of bull when you hear Minn. writers say if they do not get enough then the Twins will just keep him. Hughes is/was the #1 prospect for the last couple of years, what better do they want then that???!!! This line was the best:

    “The Twins are at the point now where they won’t accept anything less than their demands and are prepared to go elsewhere if they don’t get what they want.”

    Where else are they going????!!! The best pitching prospect isn’t enough so they will just get 1 1st round pick..It is getting comical.

  699. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    The fact the Twins are asking for Bucholz and Ellsbury tells my they got IPK and Hughes in the offer. Both the sox guys mentioned are in BA’s top 10 prospects list. That would be an unreal steal…even more than IPK and Hughes which is already obscene (especially with Melky).

  700. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    capt corner,

    Thats why I say wait till they meet next week face to face.

  701. CB December 1st, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    This paper has had very inaccurate information in it.

    The twins likely leaked that package because they were supposed to be meeting with the sox.

    They probably leaked it to get the sox to up their package to include Buchholz or Ellsbury.

  702. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    Big Joe: I hear ya. I was still including Andy in there.

  703. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    I gotta ask. I saw every game (on TV) that Phil pitched after he came back from his injury, including some great work in some pressure packed PS games.

    Did anyone see a ‘rookie’ out there?

  704. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven

    Yeah…if Andy comes back then IPK can start the year in AAA and wait incase Moose breaks down again or pickup for any injuries…Unless hank the clown gives him away with Phil.

  705. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    packages schmakages…whats it all mean ifthey’re not willing to pay him the big bucks

  706. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    “Something to consider: If the Yankees were to sign Santana to a six-year extension for $22 million a year, on average, then in 2014 — the last year of the deal — the Yankees would be paying a 35-year-old Santana and a 38-year-old Alex Rodriguez a combined $52 million.”

    Yeah, Olney is right in that regard, but he misses the whole point. The Yankees have a ripe opportunity to acquire one of the best pitchers in MLB for: one (Hughes) who’s PROJECTED to be, a League-average outfielder and another prospect who may or may not be major-league ready.

    Think about the current Yankee roster for 2008. Ownership just “overpaid” for their third basemen, catcher, and closer, picked up a $16 Mil option on their RFer.

    For 2008 many key Yankee players will be at or just past their projected “peak years”:
    Posada – 37
    Abreu – 34
    ARod – 33
    Jeter – 34
    Matsui 33
    Damon – 34
    Rivera – 38
    Pettitte 35 (IF he returns)

    This is why Hughes is considered in a trade for Santana.
    I hate to see Hughes go, too…but he has all of 13 starts in MLB, Joba has none, Kennedy has 3.

    With the current group of aging players, the window of opportunity maybe be 2008 and 2009. The Yankee organization has plenty of righthand arms and some key postion players who’ll be ready between 2009-2012.

    The time to move is now!

  707. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    Hey guys…

    Been gone for a day or so, feel like I’ve missed a lot… I see quite a few regulars have been in here in the last hour or two, so can I ask a question?

    What happened with Bobcat? I caught somwwhere (unless I misread) that Pete made him ID himself and now RovertFeline won’t be back?

    Say it isn’t so….

    What else did I miss????

  708. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    A bit of what our counterparts – Twins fans – are saying on the Star Tribune site:

    Bob says:
    December 1st, 2007 at 8:27 am

    I would wait them out. If their not going to give us Cano than we’ll take Hughes, Kennedy, Cabrera, and one other high level prospect. We’re talking about Johan Santana here!

    Todd Anthony says:
    December 1st, 2007 at 10:49 am

    “If the Yankees are offering Hughes and prospects we better take the deal NOW. They’re going to wait too freakin’ long and the Yanks will go after someone like Haren instead. A guy like Hughes doesn’t come along very often.”

    AJ: GREAT point. I’m hoping that BS and others within the front office are considering this.

    Average Joe says:
    December 1st, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Getting Hughes + prospects is NOT “Settling”. Johan’s gone next year anyway, let get a stud pitcher that won’t be eligible for FA for years. If get too greedy it’s going to come back and bite us big-time.

    Chris says:
    December 1st, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    I would settle for Robinson Cano and Ian Kennedy; but indications are that New York refuses to part with the second baseman. Phil Hughes seems like a nice young pitcher, but certainly not someone that will ever be as dominant as a Johan Santana or Roy Halladay.

    Bill Smith needs to make some more noise with the Boston Red Sox and force the Yankees hand on this. Obviously the Yankees cannot allow Boston to get Santana because if they did, there would be little need to even play the season in 2008.

    On the flip side, the Twins should not even consider any deal to the Red Sox unless Theo Epstein is willing to trade Jacoby Ellsbury and Jon Lester. Boston is already the best team in baseball and they do not truly need Santana simply because they could very easily win the World Series again in 2008 by making no offseason moves. The asking price for the Red Sox, therefore, must be higher.

  709. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    Hi…. my name is: La Velle E. Neal III
    Does anyone know how I can attract some traffic to my newspaper’s website?
    Does anyone know how I can attract some traffic to my newspaper’s website?
    Does anyone know how I can attract some traffic to my newspaper’s website?

  710. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    If Cashman wants to make this thing worthwhile he should be demanding Neshek and Nathan along with Santana.

    If that’s too rich for Minnesota’s rooke GM then tell him to screw…good luck contending with the Green Monster Johan.

  711. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    LathamJoe

    One of the better arguments for this that I have heard. I don’t like it and the fact were are so old in so many places but given where we are that argument holds water. I just wish it weren’t so.

  712. Ryu December 1st, 2007 at 4:15 pm

    This is pathethic. I hope the Twins keep Santana. If Steinbrenner 2.0/Cashman trade IPK, Hughes AND Melky this team will be a ONE PITCHER TEAM with Santana at the HELM. What was the point of building up the farm system? TO trade it all AWAY for a guy who WANTS $150 On top of 3 PLAYERS. NO CHANCE…I don’t want Santana. Stop with all these asinine trade requests by the Twins. I DON’T WANT SANTANA..KEEP THE KIDS AND MELKY..

  713. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    The twins might include nathan since they will lose him anyway.

  714. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    Let’s not crap ourselves over what some reporter in Minnesota is saying. It’s just names to them…

    ….yet.

  715. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    Si and espn are saying that the Twins want Ellsbury OR Buchholz…NOT both!! I dont think they are stupid enough to think that they can get both. Also say what you want about Cash but he is not stupid they are NOT trading Kennedy and Hughes in 1 deal. Not happening!! Todays deal including Hughes is the Yanks last offer, it is pretty much take it or leave it. Hughes and Melky are the 2 main players and even though they say they wont include Horne or Tabata, I think they will include 1 to get the deal done. But that is all!!! So we should know in the next 2 or 3 days.

  716. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    Unless Gene Michael and Cashman have absolutely no say in this proposed deal, the hole thing is BS. Michael in particular knows talent better than anybody in the business.

  717. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    WHO CARES WHAT THE SOX OFFER…THEY WILL NOT PAY SANTANA

  718. marc December 1st, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    i just dont get it…

  719. Ethan December 1st, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    The Yankees won’t trade Kennedy AND Hughes. No way. Here is Olney’s update on Espn.com:
    “For now, however, the Yankees are right in the thick of the bidding, having decided in internal discussions on Friday to offer pitcher Phil Hughes, rather than Ian Kennedy, into their offer, along with Melky Cabrera and a third player — in all likelihood, a minor leaguer. The Yankees have told the Twins that the third player cannot be any of their very best young players — Kennedy or Joba Chamberlain or second baseman Robinson Cano, for example, but a second-tier prospect.”

  720. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:20 pm

    Unfortunately, that might be a big “unless,” Mr. Beret.

  721. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:21 pm

    Ethan, with a situation as fluid as this, that could in the next five minutes. As it is, I think Hughes and Cabrera is a fair deal for the Twins.

  722. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    I meant “that could change in the next five minutes.” Pete, can you buy us an editing system here?

  723. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    That second tier talent could be White or Marquez, or someone of that ilk.

  724. rodg12 December 1st, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    Great points LathamJoe!!

  725. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    I may be repeating myself, but I don’t think Cashman/The Steinbrothers would trade both Hughes and Kennedy – unless Nathan is included, too.

  726. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    I like “The Steinbrothers” much better than “little steins”

  727. bronxjtd December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    There is one part of this whole thing I don’t understand. Why is Chamberlain and not Hughes untouchable? Before the season, Hughes was considered the best pitching prospect in baseball and rated above Chamberlain? I know Chamberlain was lights out and a folk hero, but he cannot possibly be as good as he was last year — no one is. It looks like he will be a solid MLB pitcher, but you cannot expect him to perform like he did last year. So we should be trading him while his value is overrated and keeping Hughes. We obviously have to trade one of them, and we have to keep Santana away from the Red Sox, but I don’t understand why it’s not Chamberlain.

    We just cannot let the Sox have a rotation of Santana (age 29), Beckett (age 27), Dice-K (age 27), Schilling, and Buchholz or Lester. That would be deadly.

  728. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Latham, I’m not they’d do that even then. What point would there be in having a closer and that calibre of setup guy if there were only 2 and a half starters?

  729. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    WORK WITH ME HERE PEOPLE, I’LL SHOW YOU HOW IT HAPPENS :)

    AP: “Hey LaVelle got a minute”
    LN: “sure”

    AP: “Do you think the Yankees will up their offer ?”
    LN: “I think it would take them adding Ian Kennedy to end it”

    AP: “You think the RS package will be accepted ?”
    LN: “I think it’s too light and the Twins would look elsewhere for a better package”

    AP: “Do you think the Yanks and RS are the only offers out there, is there a darkhorse or another maybe serious team that might jump in the Santana sweepstakes”
    LN: “I think the Mets maybe one, I just can’t believe a team w/ no ace in that league would not be interested, even if Jose Reyes is the one player holding up the deal”

    AP: “so you think the Mets might budge on Jose Reyes ?”
    LN: “I’d say they would for a big impact player, and we know it doesn’t get any bigger than Johan”

    AP: “You think Johan would accept a trade to the Mets ?”
    LN: “I think w/ the way the NL is he might prefer going to an NL team and dominating the NL instead”

    AP: “thanks Lavelle”
    LN: “no problem man”

    “UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 3pm: La Velle E. Neal III has a Santana update for us. He says the Yanks are offering Hughes, Cabrera, and Ian Kennedy right now. If that’s for real, I think the Twins should accept. Meanwhile it sounds like the Red Sox are still pushing Coco Crisp over Jacoby Ellsbury. Neal adds that the Mets might re-consider their stance on Jose Reyes, and that the Twins would prefer to ship Santana over to the NL.”

  730. CaptainsCorner December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Someone should write to that writer on the Minn. website and tell him to post on here. I am sure we can get a lot of “real” trade rumors…would be interesting..

  731. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Holy cr*p Batman! Did you read the Times? The EPA said there was so much sh*t flying around the air in Minn., they are declaring it a hazzardous waste site! Who knew?

  732. E-ROC December 1st, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    Melky, Hughes, and Marquez? Sounds reasonable. Just get it done already.

  733. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    Old Yanks Fan …. I’m an “Old Red Sox Fan” (dating back to Ted Williams) who has some trouble with the “fuzzy math” often used to justify ARod’s signing. I also have professional experience in government budget development, and I can assure you that the revenue projections are bogus.

    (1) Most of these pseudo-analyses use the premise that virtually ALL Yankee success is solely tied to ARod’s contributions. The reality is that any additional revenue is commingled with the revenue produced by the team performance. There is no separate category for “ARod Revenue.” That is a Boras canard.
    (2) This point is proven by the alleged “marketing share” that was included in ARod’s contract. Did you notice that he wasn’t given a % of this “windfall,” but instead a straight performance incentive. Why? Because there is no windfall – or certainly none that can be quantified.
    (3) Revisit your multi-million dollar estimates for making the playoffs. The Red Sox got only $200,000 in profit from the WS. Because of the sweep, the revenue from additional home games 6&7, which would not accrue to MLB, was lost.
    (3a) And even if there was a large revenue spike for reaching the playoffs, how can it be credited exclusively to ARod? This isn’t singles tennis.

    Arod and Boras took Hank and the Yankees for a ride. They would have attained the same revenue with or without him (assuming continued success on the field). But ARod is NOT the key to Yankee financial success. The Yankee name is the key to their success. If Arod suffers a career-ending injury today, the Yankees will collect their insurance money, use their considerable resources to reload, and garner every bit as much revenue as they would have if ARod were to play the next ten years.

    Don’t buy the Boras-driven fairy tale, happily promoted by the Yankees so it doesn’t look like they were crawling back to ARod at the same time that he was allegedly crawling back to them

    P.S. Re: Santana wanting to come to Boston. Torii Hunter said that Santana and David Ortiz were great friends in MN, joking aroung much like Cano and Cabrera. He implied that Ortiz could easily recruit Santana for Boston (especially if he wants to join the winning team).

  734. Bronx Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    Johan’s career stats at Fenway:

    1-3
    15.2 IP, 21 hits, 12ks, 8bbs, 6.89 era, .328 baa

  735. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    Bronxjtd, I agree. Joba is so HUGE that the Twins might have taken him and a lesser-but-decent prospect, in my opinion.

  736. bphill December 1st, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    I could not of traded Joba. He is just too beloved by Yankee fans including me.

  737. sharp shooter December 1st, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    Shamus Pete asked Bobcat(by emailfrom Pete) who he was and what was he doing on the Lohudblogs. Bobcat didn’t want to step on Peter’s toes,so to speak and bid his farewell to the bloggers.Ther was a huge uproar from the bloggers.

    Petr later said he could still post,he was just protecting the integrity of the blog (content),and welcomed his input.

    Quite a few of the bloggers asked Bobcat for his new posting address.

  738. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    I could trade Joba. Who knows, he may have hit his peak? I’m certainly not hoping for that, but people like Rob Neyer constantly remind us that history is not on the side of young stud pitchers. And he’s right.

  739. I am on crack December 1st, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    OK.

    Here’s what you do. Let’s just get rid of the trio. Give Minny what they want.

    Hughes
    Joba
    Kennedy

    for

    Santana and Nathan

    Then trade Jeter and Horne to Tampa Bay for Kazmir. Pay Jeter’s contract.

    Then you have Alberto Gonzales play SS or 3B (give Alex the choice).

    You keep Melky.

    I think it would be cool if we make this off-season like MAD the Board Game. Wouldn’t it be funny if the Yankees just try to trade all their minor leaguers over the winter? That would be funny! What a spectacle it would be.

    Then, the minor league teams would be comprised of a lucky selection of us bloggers and we would play for FREE!

    WHo knows, maybe Rebecca, Latham Joe, and Pollyanna “Porkchop” Pough could bring back Phil Hughes in a trade two seasons down the line.

    OK.

    There you have it. I am on crack, signing off.

  740. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Hey all, I haven’t been on here in a while, rumors about the Santana trade have been swirling so chaotically that I thought I’d try to take a break from reading about them so I didn’t drive myself crazy projecting and speculating about every twist and turn. But that has proven impossible, especially with this latest nugget from mlbtraderumors… they’re seriously going to surrender IPK *and* Hughes for Santana? And then pay him 25 mil a year on top of that?! That is certifiably insane!!! Ugh please let this not be true. I felt like someone kicked me in the stomach when I read it.

    Cash has worked so hard to build our system back up again and develop the Big 3. If this happens, both Ian & Phil going in this trade, I have to believe it would be against his advice. If they really destroy everything he has worked for for this trade I would be afraid he would quit!

    I am hoping and praying with everything I have that it isn’t true about Hughes and IPK. I do feel very heartened to read a few posts back that Olney reported both won’t be included. Please baseball gods, for the love of all that is holy, let that be the case!!!

  741. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    Bobcat will be back, he loves this team too much, I still extend to Bobcat an invitation

    sign w/ PSD forget about RealGM :)

    PSD

  742. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 4:40 pm

    The Minneapolis Star Tribune’s Lavelle E. Neal III believes the Yankees are now offering Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy in return for Johan Santana.

    He also says the Twins are no longer interested in a Red Sox package that includes Coco Crisp rather than Jacoby Ellsbury. If both of his beliefs are true, then it would seem as though the a trade between the Twins and Yankees would get done any day now. However, Neal goes on to say that he thinks the Mets are backing down on not offering Jose Reyes and that Santana might prefer the NL to the AL.

  743. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    That post about trading all of the minor league talent “cracked” me up!

  744. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Sharp–

    What post was this all revealed on, so I can go back and read all the comments? Do you remember a time frame, per chance (kije 2 pm, 2 am, etc.)

    Is it true the NYY is about to give up Hughes, Melky, IPK and another prospect for Johan?

    Does anyone feel we are getting robbed? The first game Johan gives up a few jacks he will be booed mercessly…

    O lnow he’s the best pitcher in baseball (now), but… I dunno. Maybe I’m alone on this. I just feel Hughes, IPK, Melky and someone else (a B tier) is too much,,, even for Johan.

  745. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    “I am on crack” for new yankee GM.

  746. chazzh December 1st, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    Brian-

    I used to enjoy your posts- you were fairminded and not obnoxious like most front-running Red Sox fan. Your last post is starting to show that you not all unlike the rest of the Red Sox nation. If you are turning into one of
    ‘them’- I welcome you to join ‘them’ at your own Red Sox blogs.

  747. Drive 4-5 December 1st, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)

    I wouldn’t sound so smug about the Red Sox. They bid against themselves to the tune of $214mil last offseason:

    They blew away the Mets $39mil posting fee.

    Boras had no other suitors other than Boston for JD Drew ($70mil).

    No one other than Boston would have given Julio Lugo $36mil last year.

    They gave a pitcher released by his previous team,Joel Pinero, a gauranteed $4mil.

  748. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    Heyman’s input… as of 3 pm:

    By Jon Heyman, SI.com

    “The New York Yankees may now be the frontrunners in the Johan Santana sweepstakes.

    Following internal discussions among front-office executives, the Yankees on Saturday offered young right-hander Phil Hughes in a three-player package for the Twins’ ace. Outfielder Melky Cabrera and a third prospect would also be included in the trade.

    The third prospect will not be pitchers Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne or outfielder Jose Tabada.

    If the Twins accept the offer, it is believed the Yankees will come to terms with Santana on a five- or six-year extension worth more than $20 million per season.

    The Yankees had been offering a package leading with Kennedy and Cabrera, but Minnesota insisted that Hughes be included. The Yankees made Joba Chamberlain off limits, but it appears the Twins will settle for Hughes if the other pieces are right.”

  749. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    The Minneapolis post is the rumor and may or may not be true. It may be completely false but I posted it because its there.

    Hughes, IPK, Melky for Santana:

    http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=279

  750. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    And Heyman is reporting as of 3 pm at Si.com that teh Yankees are now the front runner.

    However, as to the other prospect to be included with Hughes and Melky, he states…

    Heyman’s Quote from SI:

    “The third prospect will not be pitchers Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne or outfielder Jose Tabada.

    If the Twins accept the offer, it is believed the Yankees will come to terms with Santana on a five- or six-year extension worth more than $20 million per season.

    The Yankees had been offering a package leading with Kennedy and Cabrera, but Minnesota insisted that Hughes be included. The Yankees made Joba Chamberlain off limits, but it appears the Twins will settle for Hughes if the other pieces are right.”

  751. rich December 1st, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    Rosenthall says that its Horne or A.Gonzalez

  752. zack December 1st, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    That was totally debunked Dave, check out the amendment…

  753. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    I didnt find Brian’s post to be that vicious. It may be that ARod got paid too much… not for us to say it’s not our money. So why bother to care about it? The Sox definitely do not have the right to criticize the Yankees over money any longer. They both are spending up the wazoo…

    and you know what? why shouldn’t they?

  754. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    oh let it be Gonzo :)

  755. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    zack – i figured…. but figured id post it so peeps could see the crap that’s out there

  756. I am on crack December 1st, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    Anyone notice that Santana and Nathan together make it sound so much like Satan.

    I can just see, opening day 2008, instead of Bob Shepard saying:

    “Ladies and Gentlemen…welcome to Yankee Stadium…home of..the New York Yankees…here are the starting lineups…”

    It will be replaced by the guy who does Satanic voices for shows like South Park and will be:

    “Minions of Darkness…Eat your children and give tribute to the Dark Lord Johan of the Underworld…here are today’s torturers of your SOULS!!!!!”

  757. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    as for La Velle like I said he doesn’t know

    La Velle says:

    December 1st, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    I’m not down in Nashville yet, which is problem as I look outside my window.

    It’s true, the Yanks don’t want to part with Hughes and Kennedy. But the Twins are aiming high. I won’t claim a victory if I’m right or defeat if a named gets switched. Remember, I had Rincon involved in the Delmon Young deal (I was told he was being kicked around in the deal) but they went with Morlan).

    SanFan, call me a hack all you want. Don’t forget, I didn’t vote for Pedro for MVP. My skin is quite thick. Besides, we’re at the mercy of what sources tell us and sometimes the whole truth doesn’t come out right away. Tabata and Jackson have been thrown out there as possible pieces to the deal, too. Until there’s a deal we won’t know.

  758. rich December 1st, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    His report is on fox sports website…I dont know how to link.

  759. coney12 December 1st, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    Putting Damon back in CF is a brilliant move- NOT! What the heck are the Yankees thinking. This weakens them in two places, LF and CF. Matsui is AWFUL in LF and Damon is a much better LF than CF.

  760. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    Shamus: It’s not just you. Hughes & Melky & IPK is much too much even if Minny is throwing in someone like Pat Neshek. I really am quite nervous right now at even the mere possibility of that happening. I will always love the Yanks no matter what, they will always be my team, but man oh man, what a slap in the face this trade would be if it happens.

    One thing I do want to throw out there as far as how we will replace Melky cause he seems to indubitably be on his way out if Santana comes in – apparently the Reds are going to shop Josh Hamilton at the Winter Meetings. Anyone have any guesses on what we might have to part with to get him? If the price isn’t too high I think we should trade for him to play CF till Jackson is ready. Overpaying Rowand for a career year in a bandbox (plus having to surrender 2 good picks to Philly in the process) is not I repeat NOT the answer, IMO. Hamilton is a well-rounded, cost controlled player with tons of potential and the more he proves himself on a major league field, the higher his value will rise. He’s the type of player that we could get for not a lot now, I think, then once we don’t need him anymore, turn around and trade him getting back more than we gave up to get him.

    Has this been discussed on here at all in my absence? Anyone else think he’d be a good fit? Or have any other ideas on how we could fill this hole w/o going the Rowand route?

  761. Drive 4-5 December 1st, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    If the price is Hughes & Kennedy then bubye Johan (for now anyways). The Twins will have overplayed their hand and will have to accept a lesser deal or see what they get before the trading deadline.

    I’d love to see Santana in pinstripes. But the best thing for baseball would be for Pohlad to ante up the money to keep Johan in Minnesota. Pohlad can afford it and he owes it to the taxpayers on Minnesota to keep the team competitive. Pohlad is stealing taxpayers’ money otherwise.

  762. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    HEY CRACK SMOKER !!!

    Put this in your pipe and smoke it, to quote my paren’t generation…

    If its going to be Hughes, Melky, and, say McCutcheon/Gonzalez/Sanchez/ etc for Johan…

    Then why does’n Cashman go all out and trade IPK, Horne and another top flight prospect for Haren at the same time (if that package were to get it done, per se)?

    That gives the 2008 NYY a starting rotation of Johan, Haren, Wang, Joba and Moose, with still a bevy of backups in case of an injury, in Karstens, Clippard, Igawa, Pava–

    Just kiddin’..

  763. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    “but it appears the Twins will settle for Hughes if the other pieces are right”

    Does the phrase “settle for Hughes” seem as much of an oxymoron to anyone else as it does me? The Twins will “settle for Hughes” like A-Rod will “settle for 275 mil!”

  764. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm

    Hughes,Cabrera,and Kennedy?????……..Not a chance in hell.

    Hughes,Cabrera,and Marquez or Horne……OK

    We have all said our desires to trade or not trade Hughes and/or Robby Cano…….With that said…if the deal was

    Cano,Cabrera,Horne/Marquez
    or
    Hughes,Cabrera,Horne/Marquez
    which one do you choose..remember Its in the Yankees hands wether they trade Cano or Hughes…what I am asking which one would you choose..Please dont say neither,because then you are just not getting the point.

    I choose the Cano,Cabrera,Horne or Marquez package

  765. Green Sardine Report December 1st, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Schilling says he’s still the big hoot in Beansville and will not be upstaged by the likes of Johan Santana.

  766. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Drive 4-5

    Very nice points…Pohad should ante up the $$$…

  767. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Man this is disappointing. I went to the hospital to visit my sick grandmother today and my Met fan brother in law said that he heard it was a done deal, Hughes, Jackson and a low level prospect for Santana. I told him there was no way but he insisted. I knew he was nuts.

    Now I read that report that the Twins want Hughes and IPK, that is when I walk away. The Yankees better be careful here. There does come a point in any negotiation where you get up and walk away and wait for them to call you back to the table. That’s about where I would be if the Twins want two of the big three. I would just as soon wait until after next year, Sabathia will be free and possibly Johan.

  768. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Johan Santana and Juan Rincon for Hughes, Cano and Melky…

    You get Tans and a very very good bullpen pitcher…He would be your Set-up man for a good couple years…He would be a very cheap option for the Yankees to improve their bullpen and you get to keep Kennedy…This way you can plug Lorretta (who is being pretty underrated here IMO) and you can pick up a good out fielder

  769. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    Schilling is lucky that the Redsux are willing to put up with his diareha mouth for another season.

    Phillies were smart not to sign his butt!

  770. AJ December 1st, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    We should start a “Save Phil Hughes” rally in Times Square.

  771. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:01 pm

    “Anyone notice that Santana and Nathan together make it sound so much like Satan.”

    Maybe this is just my optimism talking but to me it sounds more like “Strahan” which can’t possibly be a bad thing! :)

  772. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan) – I’m an “Old Red Sox Fan
    ———————————————–
    Read this: http://tinyurl.com/2lys9o
    Read this: http://tinyurl.com/2m7mbl
    Read this: http://www.sabr.org/sabr.cfm?a=cms,c,1348,34,0

    One small quote:
    “The total revenue and asset value of A-Rod to the Yankees is at least $100 million greater than the value he could have generated for any other team. No other team has a comparable fan base and revenue model. Combining the industry-leading YES Network with the highest priced tickets and New York-sized demand for luxury suites means no team can move the financial needle like the Yankees. ”
    ————————————————
    Get back to me. I also found 3 other sources that said the PS-WS is worth $20-$40 million in profit. One document actually did all 8 PS teams in 2001. That Yanks/D-Backs WS generated $21 million in PROFIT for the YANKEES.

  773. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    I am on Crack:

    Never let it be said that I did not like a challenge ;)

  774. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    Rincon is now a Tampa Bay Ray.

  775. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    U-Man, if it was an either or, you’ve got to move the Cano package, because right now, Horne and Marquez are the 6 and 7 starters in the system and NYY is already a starter down, unless you trust Karstens or Rasner.

  776. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 5:04 pm

    BBB–

    Read you loud and clear on the CF issue.

    Rowand, despite how mucg of a wall-craching, hard-nosed player he is, will turn into a Damon sooner than later. Broken down. As much as I lobe him, I’d say the same thing about Eric Byrnes (and Torii Hunter to that extent). Wall crashers and all-out divers go quick, quick quick into decline. Ask Jimmy Edmonds…

    Now, I agree on Rowand and Jones. UNLESS, Jones wants to come to NYY, at one year (and at age, what- 30?) for no more than $15M, to up his numbers and cred after an awful contract year last season. Let him come for a year while Jackson, Tabata, Gardner, whoever is left from the Johan Heist of ’07, develops.

    Otherwise, like you said, target a young guy,a Josh Hamulton. Heck, if I keep hearing the Rays are shopping Carl Crawford, see if they can’t plauck him for IPK and Horne, straight up, stick him in CF with Damon/Matsui sharing time in LF and DH with Giambi,,,

  777. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    If the Yankees trade IPK and Hughes for Santana, Cashman will quit and go work for an owner who appreciates his talents. I would not do Hughes straight up for Santana…Even if the Yankees get Santana the Sox are still the favorite to win it all. Who would you rather have on the mound in game 7, Santana or Beckett? Look at their post season records! It is insane to trade a 21 year old CAN’T MISS prospect. All the naysayers with the proven vs potential crap have no idea what they are looking at when they watch this kid pitch. He will be better than Haren in 08, you can take that to the bank. Let Boston mortgage their future for another ring. Hughes, Kennedy and Joba in 2009 and 2010 may be the best front 3 in baseball. Then we will have some more top prospects knocking on the door. Also the 08/09 free agent class looks pretty solid. We don’t have to win it all next season at the expense of the next 5 or 10 seasons. Santana gaurantees nothing but an insane payroll. As I said earlier, I still like Boston in a short series with their staff.

  778. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    “after next year, Sabathia will be free and possibly Johan”

    And possibly Bedard too! Supposedly the Orioles will not be extending him, apparently negotiations reached a standstill. They’ll probably try to trade him but it may not happen since the O’s will ask the world in return and I think there are a lot of GM’s who would want to see how he does for a full year w/o Mazzone before giving up the farm for him. I know that’s how I feel; would love to add Bedard but still feel burned from the Mazzone Effect w/ Jaret Wrong…

  779. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    I agree….Damon stays in LF(DHs once aweek)…Matsui stays as the DH(plays LF once a week)…Giambi plays 1B and DH against Righties that he has good #s against.

    CF can be filled with Mike Cameron for 1-2 yrs…or give a shot to Gardner in spring training..that guy is fast.

  780. CB December 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    The third prospect should not be Horne. They are going to need him in 2008.

    Gonzalez would be fine.

    Heyman said that the third player won’t be Horne, Kennedy or Tabata:

    “The third prospect will not be pitchers Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne or outfielder Jose Tabada.”

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

  781. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    That Hughes and Jackson deal is too much but what about IPK and Jackson maybe with another level 2 guy. I’d like that and they still get 2 top tier (top 50) guys and another guy that can start and help fill Garza’s hole.

    Matt – lay off the booze with that deal you mentioned…they are not getting Cano with others.

  782. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm

    UtilityMan-

    No sir, make sure you do not listen to all your rumors…The Twins trade Morlan instead of Rincon…So that trade is still on the table…Tans and Rincon for Hughes, Cano and Melky

  783. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    Hey Kris Benson is available…and his wife comes with the deal

    http://www.annabenson.com

  784. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    sharp shooter – Shamus Pete asked Bobcat(by emailfrom Pete) who he was and what was he doing on the Lohudblogs.
    ——————————————————-
    hmmmm… this is what I read. Bobcat presented himself to this Blog as an insider. He said he did financial work for various MLB teams. Claimed he had inside info that he could NOT divulge, but let out quite a number of teasers.

    Pete wrote him SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE he said he was an ‘insider’. Pete is an insider. He tells us, and proves it to us. He simply asked Bobcat to ‘prove’ (to Pete) he was indeed an insider. Pete said he would reveal nothing. It was just so Pete KNEW that indeed Bobcat was an ‘insider’. After that, Bobcat disappeared. Gee… I wonder why?

  785. gargoyle December 1st, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    marc
    December 1st, 2007 at 4:17 pm
    WHO CARES WHAT THE SOX OFFER…THEY WILL NOT PAY SANTANA

    This is the truth which leaves the Yankees once again in the position of bidding against themselves.

  786. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    check that
    http://www.annabenson.net

  787. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    UtilityMan – Rincon is not a Ray yet, unless a new deal was done today. They got Garza and Bartlett in the Young deal not Rincon…was there a new deal done?

  788. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    Utility Man, I feel dirty for clicking that link.

  789. NJ December 1st, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    Look I’d love to have Santana but I wouldn’t do this trade if Hughes has to be in it. The kid has the potential to be what Santana has been. He’s only what, 21? Did you see how he pitched in the playoffs? A 21 year old stepping in and pitching like that in a situation like that says one thing to me, FUTURE ACE. Don’t give him up.

  790. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    Thanks Utility, but I gotta say, Anna is not aging well based on that link.

  791. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    Matt
    December 1st, 2007 at 5:00 pm
    Johan Santana and Juan Rincon for Hughes, Cano and Melky…

    You get Tans and a very very good bullpen pitcher…He would be your Set-up man for a good couple years…He would be a very cheap option for the Yankees to improve their bullpen and you get to keep Kennedy…This way you can plug Lorretta (who is being pretty underrated here IMO) and you can pick up a good out fielder

    ________________________________________________
    Keep dreaming, Space Boy. Rincon was pulled from the Tampa deal because he couldn’t pass the physical.

  792. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    ok that 2nd link is a bit better.

  793. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    everyone is going a bit crazy… STOP!!!

    1) Stop saying that Cash is getting played by Minny… If you have been a fan who actually payed attention over the years – YOU KNOW THIS IS NOW HOW CASH OPERATES. He overpays on free agents – not trades.
    2) Your not going to have all three kids in your rotation. Not for the whole year. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE – THEY CANNOT HANDLE THE LOAD YET. You can carry a rook in the rotation, bury him in the 5 spot to keep the innings low.
    3) CC will not be a free agent. Who was the last real big time ace to hit the free agent market. If you say Zito – turn off your computer right now.
    4) His lifetime stats against boston are 55.2ip 3.40era

    I would rather keep hughes. But if we have to give him up, so is life…

  794. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    UtilityMan – Hughes,Cabrera,and Kennedy?????……..Not a chance in hell. Hughes,Cabrera,and Horne……OK
    ———————————————–
    You people are aware that there are many in the Yankee organization who believe Horne has a BETTER upside then IPK?
    In terms of trade value, they are close to equal. If you don’t give away IPK, you don’t give away Horne.

  795. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    Jeff NJ – Either you have unbelievably high standards or need a new lens prescription.

  796. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    Matt

    My apologies…I was watching Yankee Hot Stove Thursday Nite…and thought I saw them put up a graphic that had Rincon in that 6 player deal..when I heard it went through,I figured it was the one they had talked about on TV.MY bad on that one

  797. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    I think Green Beret is right….about Rincon not passing the physical….With Percival in their pen,and the talk of adding Rincon,there was talk of them moving Reyes.

    the link is annabenson.net not .com

  798. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    Chazzh & Drive 4-5 … I may have intended to tweak a little, but not to offend. I certainly agree that the Red Sox spend whatever money they have like drunken sailors …. Lugo and Drew befuddled me (especially Drew, who they must have wooed BEFORE he opted out of his Dodger contract).

    My post was an attempt to demonstrate that baseball revenues are not like taxes (i.e. Sales tax brings in $X, gas tax brings in $Y). The fact is that no one can remotely estimate alleged EXTRA money brought in by ARod – that number is too fluid and too dependent. (How much did he bring in in Texas, for example?)

    Boras has given the Yankees a pseudo-economic model which allows them to claim that the ARod contract pays for itself. Right.

    I’ll give you an example. Next year, a Father and his son go into a Yankee merchandise shop to buy some Yankee gear. They want a shirt. But, for some reason (within this hypothetical), ARod isn’t with the yankees. Do they walk out? NO!! THEY BUY A JETER SHIRT INSTEAD!!!!

    Conclusion from ECO 101 – Father and son have $X for Yankee Paraphernalia. Father and son will spend $X for Yankee Paraphernalia. ARod is not part of the equation. The Yankee brand exists exclusive of ARod, and is little impacted by him.

    If you don’t believe that, then try to find out if he can take his act to TX and generate the same revenue “by himself.”

    P.S. Kennedy plus Hughes is highway robbery. I don’t think the Red sox will even try to trump the Hughes-only scenario. But don’t tell Hank. The apple doesn’t fall very far fronm the tree. I hope Cashman has been stashed into a guitar case in Nashville.

  799. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    I would not do Hughes straight up for Santana…

    I am still speechless – someone said that last night. Everyone is entitled to there opinion, but i would be willing to bet that any GM with cashs money background makes that trade.

  800. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    I have only seen one response to the question I posed earlier…….Would you trade Cano instead of Hughes…If you had to pick one to lose.

  801. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    U-Man, Morlon was substituted for Rincon after the failed physical.

  802. bardos December 1st, 2007 at 5:21 pm

    the fact that we are hearing that damon will be the yankee CFielder in 2008 makes me feel that there is still a lot of BS and posturing in the air (thank god).

    I cannot believe that even the young steiners think that he will ever be an adequate center-fielder at his age and body. DH, left field (1b) that’s damon’s new future role.

    this announcement is a smokescreen for something. like bubba crosby in CF.

  803. Keith December 1st, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    If all reports were true, the Twins have crossed the line and into ludicrousy if they think they can shake the Yankees down for talent knowing their pitcher and his agent hold the trump card. Plain and simple greed.

  804. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 5:23 pm

    Damn, I’d hate to have you all judge me on my looks o-o;;

  805. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    I am beginning to hate Little Stein. How on earth are you bidding against yourself.

  806. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    3) CC will not be a free agent. Who was the last real big time ace to hit the free agent market.
    ———————————————
    Fact or Fiction:
    You have spoken with CC?
    If the Yankees don’t get Santana, every quality pitcher who’s contract is up after 2008 (Like Sabathia) will be drooling at the prospect of the 5/$100m+ deal the Yankees would offer.

    Do you think the Indians will offer 5/$100m? If not, how close? If Zito got $18m for 7 years, what’s CC worth?

  807. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    Why do you think the Red Sox would not pay Santana 6 years/$120-130 Million? Both Manny ($20 Million) and Schilling ($8 Million) can come “off the books” next year so their salaries allow Boston to afford Johan AND give Beckett a raise.

    Some have speculated that Santana would not want to pitch in Fenway because of the Park’s dimensions and the fact that he’s a lefty. If he secures his financial future with a 6-year contract from Theo, pitching in Fenway for half of his starts will not matter one way or another to him.

    It’s “liar’s poker” folks, and all we get to do is watch!

  808. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    El Comaduce –
    first I don’t think of Hughes as a rook any more. He’s proven he belongs and can pitch. His legs will be better giving him back the 2-3 mph he lost after the hammy but still pitched great in Sept despite that.
    Joba is not really a rookie (at least not a completely fresh one. He knows he belongs too…sub 1.00 eras do that for a guy.
    IPK – closest to a rookie but he knows he belongs too based on 1.9 era despite the small sample size.

    Further think of the rookies that have managed well in the past 2 years. CMW, Fausto, Liriano (before the arm)…go back a bit and find Beckett and others. I know more don’t work out but all 3 of these guys are in the very top echelon of prospects…I’d take my chances with them.

  809. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    Shamus: Good call on Andruw Jones, I would definitely take him on a 1-year deal to let him rebuild his value, especially since the Braves didn’t offer him arbitration (why, I don’t know) so we wouldn’t have to give them a draft pick. Getting Jones in pinstripes w/o compensating Atlanta for the loss would absolutely kill Braves fans lol.

    Other than him, Hamilton is my top choice. In addition to his power, speed and athleticism I think Girardi would really get the best out of him. He seems to be good with those “problem child” kind of players – Scott Olsen did so well in Miami when Joe was there, and has been a colossal mess without him.

    Definitely not interested in Mike Cameron. Besides the 25 game suspension, how do we know he won’t completely suck now that he can’t take speed anymore?? Plus he K’s seemingly all the time. A better last resort would be Milton Bradley or even FA Corey Patterson for a year or two. His bat is only league average but he plays great D and is often a pesky/tough out…

  810. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    Good God…not Bubba Crosby. He couldn’t get out of his own way, nor, anybody’ esles for that matter. I’d rather have Bubba Trammell or Bubba Blue in center.

  811. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    Note to the Yankees : Make the twins sweat put a deadine on the offer. take it or leave or we moving on. Don’t let the twins play you on this one.

  812. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    Also – as a female perhaps I’m not the best judge of these things but does anyone else think that Laura Posada makes Anna Benson look like Dudley Moore? :)

  813. Brian December 1st, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    I’m at the point now where I can’t help but imagine Santana in Boston. Sure, that’s frightening. But wouldn’t it make a postseason run in which we’re starting to put it all together with the young guys, SO SWEET?
    Worst case (well, almost, without injury here). And let’s pretend we bring up Alan Horne mid-year and Mussina is in the same spot as last year:

    Wang v. Beckett
    Hughes v. Santana
    Joba v. Schilling
    Kennedy v. Dice-K
    Horne v. Lester

    I don’t care if we are the underdog. That would be a hell of a lot of fun if we won it. Don’t you agree? Our odds may not be as good, but the return would be amazing if we pulled it off.

  814. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    Agent47 – Like the ultimatum they put on ARod…don’t void the deal or we won’t deal with you. Steinbrothers have proven they can be played and it will be happening alot now…next example of it will be this trade.

  815. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    Laura Posada is deffinately better.

  816. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    BBB, Posada is a doll, but, Benson has a great set of

    eyes.

  817. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    El Comaduce – I would not do Hughes straight up for Santana.
    ——————————————————–
    Can people PLEASE make a statement correctly?
    This statement means:
    6 yrs Santana @ $150m > 6 years Hughes @ $10m
    which equals
    Santana > Hughes + $140m
    which could equal (getting CC for 6/$120 in 2009)
    Santana > Hughes + $20m + Sabathia

  818. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm

    BBB, no, I don’t think that about Anna Benson. Unless you went to Utility Man’s link for the comparison.

  819. GreenBeret7 December 1st, 2007 at 5:33 pm

    Agent47, If Rodriguez had not gone back to Steinbrenner, he wouldn’t be on the Yankees now. That was the main thing that did it. NYY did not chase him down.

  820. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    El Comaduce – I would not do Hughes straight up for Santana.
    ——————————————————–
    Can people PLEASE make a statement correctly?
    This statement means:
    6 yrs Santana @ $150m >? 6 years Hughes @ $10m
    which equals
    Santana >? Hughes + $140m
    which could equal (getting CC for 6/$120 in 2009)
    Santana >? Hughes + $20m + Sabathia

    Am I nuts, or do people here absolutely refuse to do any math?

  821. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Just got home from the city, jesus is it COLD!! I am still thawing I saw the radio city Christmas show! Sat close enough to get snowed on and have streamers thrown at me!!

    Anyhow did I miss anything today?

  822. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Andru Jones? If he was so good they would have offered Arb. The guy is a walking strikeout and has only hit above .265 one time in the last 7 years (.277 in 2003). He does not fit our hitting model and has lost a step in the field although would be far better than Damon…but then again so would Anna Benson…or for that matter Benson the butler.

  823. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    BBB

    Anna Benson.net

    That ANNA Benson.com was way off!

  824. EY December 1st, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    Boston’s not going to get Santana. They don’t need anymore pitching at the expense of their prospects. Don’t fall for Boston’s trap.

    Save Phil Hughes – our number 1 prospect. Gee, if you look at Santana’s numbers from his first year in the majors, Hughes’s first year beats Santana’s first year.

    I’ll be very disappointed with the organization if Hughes is gone. Not to mention all the holes we’ll have to start plugging again if we trade Melky or Cano…along with fixing the bullpen.

    Fixing the bullpen + save Phil Hughes > “whatever it takes to get Santana”

  825. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    bbb I agree as a female I agree that Laura is beautiful.

  826. CB December 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Johnny Damon with Brett Gardner as a 4th outfielder will be fine for next year and even the next until Jackson is ready (assuming Jackson’s not traded).

    If you want young players to develop and come up to the big team you are going to have to be willing to allow some veterans to play out the string.

    Jones is not going to sign for one year. He’s supposedly gotten a multi-year deal from KC already. Rowand is coming off a career year and is overrated.

    Getting a guy like Hamilton will be costly and still a big risk. You’re buying Hamilton at his highest value since he was drafted at no. 1. They’ll probably ask for kennedy or horne.

    Trying to find a patchwork solution right now to center instead of damon is only going to complicate the transition to younger players.

    You have to stop dreaming of having the “ideal” player at every position. Every team has some spots that are sub-optimal.

    The red sox won a championship with JD Drew and Coco Crisp as 2/3 of their outfield.

    Damon will be fine.

  827. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Jennifer – Save Phil Hughes!

    Just missed a lot of babbling here from some very concerned and anxious fans. Chasing rumors, arguing….nope you did not miss anything.

  828. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Old Yanks Fan – There is a good chance CC ain’t going to be a free agent…. So it will be Hughes + $125m + Someone ZITOESQUE because good pitchers don’t make it to Free agency…

    that is why the bosox posted so much cash just to talk to Dice k…

  829. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Jennifer

    Rumor has it that the Twins want Hughes,Cabrera, and Kennedy

  830. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    Johan Santana and Juan Rincon for Hughes, Cano and Melky…

    You get Tans and a very very good bullpen pitcher…He would be your Set-up man for a good couple years…He would be a very cheap option for the Yankees to improve their bullpen and you get to keep Kennedy…This way you can plug Lorretta (who is being pretty underrated here IMO) and you can pick up a good out fielder

    Matt and I am on crack = Same Person. Methinks so!

  831. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    UtilityMan If that is the case than the Yankees have to walk away. That is way too much for 1 player. Now if they throw in Nathan and others, you might get me to think about it.

  832. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    Green beret-

    Do you have a link to it saying he didn’t pass his physical?

  833. Profiles, Inc. December 1st, 2007 at 5:42 pm

    Brian Cashman -

    Age: 40

    Experience with team: GM since February 1998; started as an intern while in college and rose to assistant GM in 1997, spending much of his early years working in the Yankees’ Tampa player development operation.

    Baseball background: He’s been with the Yankees since before his 1989 graduation from Catholic University.

    As a player: Held the Catholic University (Washington, D.C.) single-season record for hits as a second baseman and was nicknamed “Crash”.

  834. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    El Comaduce – Old Yanks Fan
    There is a good chance CC ain’t going to be a free agent….
    ———————————————————-
    Why?? His contract is up after 2008.
    If the Yankees are HUNGRY to pay big money for a quality SP, why would CC not become a FA?
    “There is a good chance CC ain’t going to be a free agent”
    That staement has ZERO VALUE!
    Tell me WHY NOT! Back your opinion up with something!

  835. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    I agree with ya Jennifer……they would be trying to fleece the Yankees…as someone posted earlier,there is a time to walk away from discussions.

    Jennifer

    If you HAD to trade either Cano or Hughes in the deal(not both)which would you trade…has to be one of them????

  836. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    Jennifer: Think it’s cold in the city?

    In the ‘Cuse we’ve got a wind chill of 3.

    That’s Three. Not Thirty, not thirteen, but three.

  837. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    OK, I stand corrected – now having looked at other pics of Anna Benson, she isn’t Dudley Moore…but Laura Posada is still better and so is Mrs. Damon. In my eyes, anyway – of course, what do I know? LOL

  838. Agent47 December 1st, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    We need a BobCat 20/20 update :)

  839. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:49 pm

    RECENT TOP 10 PROSPECTS…
    2005
    FELIX HERNANDEZ (14-7, 3.92 era, 1.29 whip)
    SCOTT KAZMIR (13-9, 3.48 era , 1.38 whip )

    2006
    FRANCISCO LIRIANO (great 2006, injured 2007)
    CHAD BILLINGSLEY (12-5, 3.31, 1.33)
    JUSTIN VERLANDER (18-6, 3.36, 1.23)
    MATT CAIN (7-16, 3.73, 1.23)

    1 out of the 6 is a Top tier ace, and that is Verlander… Do you think hughes will be verlander in two years? He could be, what are the odds though… Santana is proven…

    http://www.baseballamerica.com.....26983.html

    Johan
    15-13 3.33 1.07,

    On the turf, his grass era was 2.60. yankee stadium era for his career is under a buck and half… AGAINST OUR OFFENSE….

    Dont get me wrong – i would rather keep Phil over Ian, but we are talking about a LEFTY ACE… Good God…

  840. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    Old Yanks Fan, who is the last big time ace to slip thru to free agency…

  841. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    UtilityMan – That is a tough one, we know Robbie can be successful at the big league level and he impacts the game everyday, Phil only impacts the game 30 times a year and even than he doesn’t have total control of the outcome. You have errors, or lack of run support. UGH!!! If you are telling me I have to choose someone I guess I’d have to choose Phil :cry:

    Rebecca but you don’t have windchill!! It is windy in the city too. And stupid me wears a dress, and no scarf!!

  842. Travis December 1st, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    BBB, major bonus points to Anna Benson for her attitude. Tie goes to the bimbo.

  843. gayle December 1st, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    For all the Save Phil BS and the call for a raly in Times Square. Please liase with those who did the Save Joe Torre rally ask them how that turned out. SOme people really are clueless.

    Same thing about the write Ady Pettite and let him know how we feel maybe that wil change his mind. You think after all the time he doesnt know how fans feel about him. You thik what the fans think has any bearing in his returning.

    I am not saying this to be a downer but in these instances what we think has absolutely no bearing on anything.

  844. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Rebecca I stand corrected, you stated windchill!! But it was still pretty damn cold!!

  845. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan) – I’m an “Old Red Sox Fan
    ———————————————
    Did you read those links? Here’s another.
    http://tinyurl.com/3bdlmf

  846. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    CB: Regarding Josh Hamilton, that’s what I was trying to figure out is what the cost would be. Despite his immense potential and impressive performance in ’07 he struggled with injuries a good bit, and there is also the problem of his past and whatnot, especially the chance that it could rear its ugly head again – I was hoping these things would drive down his value. But yeah, if the Reds ask for Kennedy or Horne, no deal.

    i still think we can do better than Damon in CF, especially because him playing center has a rebound effect in that Matsui would then have to play left. I just don’t think Cash will let that happen, but I agree that whatever solution he finds should not be one that interrupts the transition process to the younger players – which is exactly what signing Rowand would do.

  847. UtilityMan December 1st, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    I agree with ya…..I choose Phil as well…but my no means would I LIKE to trade Cano.

    So I would do a Cano,Cabrera,and lower ML pitcher…
    But it sounds like they want a Major League ready pitcher not a 2B.

  848. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Old Yanks Fan – will u at least agree that Posada’s wife is 10 times hotter than Anna Benson

    http://excapemag.com/images/la.....ortada.gif

  849. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    El Comaduce –

    I know its not a given, but the difference is that some of those guys records were less due to a lack of offense around them (kaz, Felix, Cain). I think with the run support this team can generate we can get away with a year of growing and have a tremendous future. I understand your point but this is a ton to give away for a guy that is going to be 29 in his first of 6 years. Look at some of the models on future years based on history and most pitchers really decline in what would be the last 2-3 years of this deal. I still would prefer to stand pat.

  850. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    OH LAVELLE HOW COULD YOU :(

    Yanks, Twins trying to reach Santana deal

    The Minneapolis Star Tribune’s Lavelle E. Neal III essentially admitted he was guessing when he reported the Yankees were offering Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy to the Twins for Johan Santana.

    Neal apparently had no inside info here, so there’s still no reason to think the Yankees are willing to part with both Hughes and Kennedy. FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal said this afternoon that the Twins are targeting right-hander Alan Horne or defensive-minded shortstop Alberto Gonzalez as the third player along with Hughes and Cabrera. In his latest blog, ESPN’s Peter Gammons seems to think it’s almost a given that the trade will be completed. Dec. 1 – 5:39 pm et

    rotoworld

  851. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    jennifer: I’m sitting in my apartment with the heat up full blast, and I’m cold enough to be wearing a fleece pullover inside.

  852. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    Brandon thanks for the update! A huge load off my mind to know it will not be Hughes & IPK. Lavelle was yankin’ our chains lol – I can’t believe I actually fell for it! :\

    I say let them have Attorney General but draw the line if they want Horne. They’re already getting Hughes, so as far as I’m concerned that means no more starters not named Marquez/Wright/Clippard, etc. Christmas isn’t coming early in Minnesota on Ca$hmoney’s watch!

  853. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:01 pm

    BBB,

    I understand what you’re saying. An outfield of Matsui/ Damon/ Abrue will be a poor to mediocre outfield defensively.

    But I do think almost anything definitive they try to do is going to make the longer term solution to this problem worse. Centerfield is just such a difficult position to fill.

    Hamilton may be available, particularly becuase jay bruce is so close and so good. But Hamilton had such a positive season and still has so much upside he’ll be expensive. They are going to get quality pitching in return.

    I think Damon is going to be better next year. He’s hired a trainer – I think he was embarrassed last year and the benching/ losing his position was an eye opener. Remember, the year before he had an excellent offensive season and was adequate in the field.

    Also, if Melky goes I think this is a good opportunity to take a look at Brett Gardner. He’ll be a good 4th outfielder at minimum. He does have truly game changing speed – almost Jose Reyes type speed.

    Next year Damon/ Gardner will be ok

  854. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    El Comaduce – Agreed on Posada’s wife.

  855. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Brandon,

    That was great. What a joke.

    They should not trade Alan Horne in this deal. You can argue that Horne is only a hair behind kennedy as a prospect.

    Gonzalez or a clippard/ marquez – fine.

  856. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Big Joe – i hear ya…

    but some of the posts i have been reading are making it sound like hughes is a definite, cant miss top tier ace… He could be – but statistically speaking the odds are against him.

    I think most people here would say that Joba has better stuff than Phil… I would like to believe that – but u cant depend on it…

    I think the steinchildren want to give there pops a good chance to get one more series.

  857. Matt December 1st, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    I don’t think Rincon failed a physical…It’s more due to the fact that Morlan is a stud…he has like a career .200 avg against and tons more SOs than innings pitched…

  858. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    I think the last bonafied ACE to be a free agent might have been miss Mussina, and in his prime, his numbers going back 4 years before the yankee trade are not as good as Johan, and he is not a lefty…

  859. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    I just got back from Tampa and after driving by Legends Field, all appears to be quiet. Oh.. what I wouldn’t give to dig thru the trash and see what scraps I could find! :-)

  860. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    Rebecca and Jennifer – I am here in Tampa (yanks winter home) out at the pool in 72 degrees on my laptop. Why do people live up there in the cold (just kidding I lived in NYC until I was 23 and got tired of the cold myself)

  861. stuart December 1st, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    santana does not put the yanks over the top at all.

    pettitte is one of the few classy guys in baseball and he owes the yanks nothing, he is one of the few non money grubbers in the game.. His buddy Clemens is the epitome of money grubber mercenary.

    again the Yanks should call there bluff they are giving up way to much..

    Kennedy, Melky, and 2nd tier guys if they do not like it they can trade him somewhere else.

    we will regret losing Hughes for about 15 LONG LONG YEARS.

    Keep Hughes……

  862. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    Matt,

    It was widely reported that tampa pulled rincon from the deal because they were concerned about his elbow.

    http://mvn.com/mlb-rays/2007/1.....t_selected

  863. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    El Comaduce – If I were a betting man (and I am) I would be willing to bet two of the big 3 will be top of the rotation guys and one will be a serviceable starter. Just the way I see it based on likely outcomes when you look at results of top pitching prospects through the years. I am willing to roll the dice on those odds and spend Santana’s money else where if needed while having 2 studs for the next 10+ years alongside solid CMW. That’s a pretty nice start for any team.

  864. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    Big Joe,

    I was just in Tampa at Guitar Center putting my Gibson Robot Guitar on lay away!
    I have season tickets for Yankee’s spring training right on top of the dugout :-)

  865. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    Santana gives you 220+ quality innings at an Ace level, you now slot Wang down to number 2 in the rotation. This is where it gets tricky, with andy in the 3rd slot, we have a very solid rotation because he is mature and will give us innings, you now can pitch the kids 4 and 5 and they wont get as abused from an innings standpoint. I am not counting on anything from mussina

  866. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    stuart – True on Roger…but he is also the epitome of the best starter in baseball for the last 50 or so years and maybe in the top 3 of all time.

  867. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Big Joe,

    Where are we going to spend that money… There is not alot talent out there…

    I know we have to get some pen help – but bullpen free agents are like playing roulette…

  868. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Fleas – I go to the games too but sit on 3rd base side halfway up to get the shade of the afternoon sun on the west side of the stadium for those 80-85 degree games. Not a bad seat in that place.

  869. Wolf In Pinstripes December 1st, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    “FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal said this afternoon that the Twins are targeting right-hander Alan Horne or defensive-minded shortstop Alberto Gonzalez as the third player”

    This is exactly what I was referring to yesterday when people asked how the pursuit of Loretta would affect Betemit. The Yankees going after Loretta was a good sign that our current backup infielders were being placed on lists of players available in trade scenarios. The Twins needed some infield help, so I was expecting to see either Gonzo or Betemit pop us one of the possible “other players” in a Santana deal.

  870. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Old Yankee Fan —- The article is written by a sportswriter who is getting confilcting estimates from economists who may well be lacking experience in applying standard economic principles to sports models.

    For instance, one “expert” posits a $43 million revenue increase tied to an estimated 10 extra wins produced by ARod. Of course, those 10 extra wins cannot come w/o the assistance of his 24 teammates. Do they get extra $$ for the remaining 85 wins? Again, this is not singles tennis.

    ARod had similar seasons in Texas, and his teams were below .500. ARod needs the Yankees more than they need him from the perspective of WINNING GAMES. And if winning games is the key component in generating revenue, then it is myopic to attribute that factor to ARod in such a disproportionate ratio.

    At minimum, your links are inconclusive in proving your point (the misleading headlines notwithstanding). The Daily News article specifically mentions the primacy of the Yankee brand. Without it, ARod is nothing (as a revenue generator). That is unequivocal.

    Again, take note of the fact that his “marketing share” was nothing more than a performance incentive (or, “historical mark,” for the purposes of circumventing the Master Contract). Arod didn’t take a % of this alleged marketing windfall because it is impossible to quantify.

    It’s just a shell game so that both sides can keep their self-respect over the size of the contract at the circumstances behind its formulation.

  871. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    El Comaduce – RECENT TOP 10 PROSPECTS…
    2005
    FELIX HERNANDEZ (14-7, 3.92 era, 1.29 whip)
    SCOTT KAZMIR (13-9, 3.48 era , 1.38 whip )
    2006
    FRANCISCO LIRIANO (great 2006, injured 2007)
    CHAD BILLINGSLEY (12-5, 3.31, 1.33)
    JUSTIN VERLANDER (18-6, 3.36, 1.23)
    MATT CAIN (7-16, 3.73, 1.23)

    DUDE!!!! You forgot these 4!!!

    Player A) 130 IP – 5.88 ERA
    Player B) 133 IP – 4.32 ERA
    Player C) 100 IP – 4.14 ERA
    Player D) 162 IP – 4.55 ERA

    Dude – I have four young pitchers listed above. A lot of people think they are HOT.
    Would you trade Cano straight up for any of them?
    I said, would you trade Cano straight up for any of them?

    Player A) Johan Santana – Career ERA: 3.22
    Player B) Roger Clemens – Career ERA: 3.12
    Player C) Sandy Koufax – Career ERA: 2.76
    Player D) Bob Gibson – Career ERA: 2.91

    Just what are you trying to prove?
    That even some of the best pitchers in history take a year or 2 to reach their potential?

    Phil Hughes has an ERA of: 4.46
    In other words, when adjusted for era, so far Hughes is better then Johan Santana, Roger Clemens and Bob Gibson

    Moral of the story:
    Posting a ROOKIE pitchers numbers do not tell the story.
    Better to look at his MiLB history.

    And I don’t know how many of those 6 are ‘Aces’, but I take 5 of any one of them for my team!

  872. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    Big Joe: I hate the cold and Syracuse was my first choice school.

    Ooops.

  873. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    I am a huge believer in our farmsystem (as long baseball lets us pay prospects over slot value) – this might be the last big free agent we need to sign for a while…

    If Johan was a righty – i would not be as hot for him, but he will dominate in the stadium. I believe the new stadium has the same dimmensions so it should be no issue…

  874. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    I would spend more on development centers in hotbeds to keep rolling in the Tabatas etc. I think the infrastructure outlays we have made are showing dividends primarily in our system depth. I also think we will need to dig for a Right Fielder and maybe Left fielder for the next few years starting in 2009. We are also 2 years from needing to replace Jorge at catcher. Bullpen depth as well. I just think Seattle proved a few years ago that you can spread it out with quality and produce a nice team (although it did not carry to playoffs for them)

  875. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    Yankees fell right into Red Sox trap. Red Sox get Hughes away from the Yanks and don’t have to use Buchholz or Ellsbury to do it.

    This reeks of Hankee because considering the comments made by Gene Michael this week…he would rather have Hughes.

    “I would love to have him (Santana) on our team next year, but is the contract going to be too much?” Michael said. “Is it too many years? Are the players you are going to put in there, are they too much? We don’t know exactly what it is going to take.”

    Santana won’t be Santana for the Yanks, Johnny Damon going back to CF is a disaster and Hughes emerging as a star for another team makes me queasy.

    Hate to say it but, Yanks wouldn’t need a #1 so desperately if Pettitte was in the fold. Pettitte would be in the fold if Torre was still managing.

  876. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    Rebecca–Optimist Prime

    I went to Binghamton, so I know the cold you are talking about.

  877. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    Old Yanks Fan – i am still waiting on my answer about anna benson and the last ace to hit the FA market..

    My point was that of all those great kids, Verlander had ace season… that is 1 out of 5… The ultimate point is that you cant count on a kid to be an ace right away…

  878. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    If they do wind up trading Hughes losing Rick Porcello in the draft this year is that much worse.

    Those damn tigers!

    Over time the yankees ability to get talented young players by paying over slot is going to diminish. Teams are going to keep seeing the same thing the tigers/ sox and yankees have – paying over slot will save money in the long run. minaya has already said he’s rethinking the mets compliance.

    It’s going to be more difficult for the yankees even if they pay over slot – fewer players (especially arms) are going to fall.

  879. Steve How You Doin December 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    All – is there any chance that this deal is NOT happening?

    Been trying to convince myself that this is posturing on the Yankees part.

    Just think about this, for all of you who are behind this deal:

    Yanks would be trading Hughes, Melky and another for just one year of Santana – that’s it. Because if they waited, then they could get Santana as a FA after next season.

    I dont believe there are any other legit players here. If the Red Sox truly budge, let them have the guy, honestly. It’s time for a change in the Bronx.

  880. stuart December 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    if anyone thinks rosenthal, heyman , and others have any clue I got some land for sale…

    again the YANKS ARE giving up way too much.. why are they fools, what happened to the friggin plan…………………………………………

  881. cajone December 1st, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    Cameron is suspended for the first 25 games next season. We don’t need any more steroid/HGH issues on our ballclub.

  882. Steve How You Doin December 1st, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    Please, someone tell me this deal isn’t happening.

  883. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    Big Joe – i totally agree… I pay “over slot” for every aspect of player development, coaches to scouts..

    A lot of teams don’t have the money to saturate there farm systems… It takes money and patience..

  884. Steve How You Doin December 1st, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    Let the kids play!

  885. MJL December 1st, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    so what number do you guys think Santana will wear?

  886. worcestershire December 1st, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    “Pettitte would be in the fold if Torre was still managing”

    What evidence do you have of that? Oh, none? Ok.

  887. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:30 pm

    stuart – there is a tremendous chance that all this speculation is about a planted story. No deal has been done – it could all be a smoke screen to force Boston to put it’s trump cards on the table…

  888. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    Jonathon – Really Andy would have stayed? Like he did 5 years ago when he left for Astros? That statement was already proven wrong.

  889. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    To the poster who brought up the fact that Boston pays Manny 20 million, Boston has been trying to get out of that deal for 5 years.

    They waived Manny because of that deal and there were no takers.

    They do not like to tie up payroll at that level with any players.

    This team will not give Johan his money. They will try to sell him on the charm of Boston and it’s inbred fans and they’ll get Big Papi to dress up as Santa and put Johan on his knee and then they’ll offer him a below market contract and he’ll pass.

    The Yankees (and the Mets) are the only teams I know for certain who would go over 20 million a year for Johan w/o batting an eye lash. Both teams set the market price for players and both have no qualms paying for top talent.

    Boston prides itself on beating down the agent and the player in negotiations.

    Look at what they did to guys who won them world series championships for proof.

    I think Cashman has this thing in the palm of his hand and I don’t think for a second he would trade IPK, Hughes and Melky. Not for a second.

    They may trade Hughes and Melky which is fair, but I think before all is said and done we’re going to be very happy with this trade.

    There’s a lot of poker still be played here.

  890. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    Trust me that, the moment Anna Benson opens her mouth, she becomes 1000% less attractive. The woman is as big a bigoted idiot as they come.

    Robbie Benson becomes more attractive then.

  891. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:32 pm

    Its not accurate to say that Stick Michael didn’t want to trade hughes and that this was Hank.

    In fact Stick said the opposite this week on ESPN radio. He said that he thought both Hughes and Kennedy would be “good” pitchers but:

    “I would think about it,” Michael said. “I would very seriously consider putting one of them in the deal.”

    A summary of the interview:

    “New York Yankees vice president Gene Michael said Wednesday he would consider trading Phil Hughes or Ian Kennedy in a trade for Johan Santana, but warned the Yankees have to factor in Santana’s contract demands before making any deal.”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3133598

    I think whatever heated discussion they had for the past two days Cash didn’t want to trade Hughes but Stick was Ok with it and Hank listened to Stick. Cash ultimately may have relented.

  892. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    G. Love – perfectly stated…

    We need SJ44 to chime in, regardless of who we trade, i am curious as to who thinks has a chance of contributing to the system from a starter or pen standpoint..

  893. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Yankees fell right into Red Sox trap. Red Sox get Hughes away from the Yanks and don’t have to use Buchholz or Ellsbury to do it.

    This reeks of Hankee because considering the comments made by Gene Michael this week…he would rather have Hughes.

    “I would love to have him (Santana) on our team next year, but is the contract going to be too much?” Michael said. “Is it too many years? Are the players you are going to put in there, are they too much? We don’t know exactly what it is going to take.”

    Yes, this is all in the Red Sox evil plans. They make the Yankees trade a young pitcher who might not pitch even 170IP’s this year for a pitcher who’s the best in the game and is a 200+ inning horse.

    They are diabolical those Red Sox.

  894. ramar December 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    First we trade aging superstars for young talent to turn into future tier 1 players only to trade them away for middle aged superstars. Duh? I don’t get it?

  895. showshank December 1st, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    The Red Sox spent 70 million on JD Drew and over 100 million for Matsuzaka. So I don’t think you can definitively conclude that they wouldn’t go to 150 million for Santana, who is world’s better than those dudes.

  896. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Trust me that, the moment Anna Benson opens her mouth, she becomes 1000% less attractive.

    Depends on the circumstances..

  897. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:35 pm

    Let me ask a question to all of you here not in baseball terms but in general terms.

    If you had a chance to have Warren Buffett work your money for the next 20 years while teaching you the way he does things, or a new Up & Coming money manager who graduated at the top of his business school and many view him as the next Warren Buffet and he could potentially manage your money for the next 40 years, which one would you choose?

  898. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Brian (Red Sox Fan)
    Did you read the FIRST # links I gave you?
    They are the authors work, in detail.
    He is a consultant with over 20 years of experience doing corporate financial analysis.

    He also stated, as I put in my post, that ARod is worth at MINIMUM, $100 million more to the Yankees then any other team. So we only ONLY talking about his worth to the Yankees. And coincidentally, he was signed by the Yankees.

    You said the Sox only made $200,000 in this PS. Do you realize how WAY WAY wrong that is? They made that much on beer sales alone!

    A little more: http://tinyurl.com/36gdya

  899. showshank December 1st, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Johan is not a middle aged superstar. He is 29 years old and the best pitcher in baseball.

  900. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Big Joe,

    Coincidently, I moved to Miami when I was 23 from Bellmore NY.. although originally from CT. Now I am in Sarasota, have been for about 4 years now. since I still work in Manhattan, I have the best of both worlds.. Yankee’s spring training and games in the Bronx :)

    I’m not sure if I will stay in Tampa forever, but wherever I move, it’s going to be around a team that plays the Yankee’s a lot, if it isn’t around Legends, or Yankee stadium.

  901. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    middle aged superstars

    The guy just entered his prime…

  902. Old Yanks Fan December 1st, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Santana, 29, has a full no-trade clause, and could block any deal the Twins try to make. In return for waiving the no-trade clause, it’s expected that Santana will want the Yankees or any other team attempting to trade for him to sign the left-hander to a record-setting contract. No pitcher has ever signed a multi-year deal for more $18.6 million per season, but Santana may ask for something in the range of six years and $150 million in an extension.

  903. Steve How You Doin December 1st, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Some jerk on Yes Boards just said the deal is now final – hughes, melky, alberto gonzalez…

  904. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    I take Warren Buffett but because the other guys is not proven….

  905. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:39 pm

    If they do wind up trading Hughes losing Rick Porcello in the draft this year is that much worse.

    I take it you have never heard of Andrew Brackman. If he makes a full recovery, he is considered to be on the same level as Hughes/Joba/Kennedy.

  906. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    hughes, melky, alberto gonzalez that is not a horrid deal for us…

    If i was Minny – i would push for a higher ceiling pitcher – not gonzalez..

  907. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    Time will tell….

    as it did with Vazquez, Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson.

  908. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm

    Fleas – If they ever take the Rays out of the Yanks division I’d have to move. I need to see them at least 7-8 times a year.

  909. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    Lets hope he makes a full recovery… You would think we would have more lefty arms in our system…

  910. 56Bomber December 1st, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    “I take Warren Buffett but because the other guys is not proven….”

    plus he’s a lefty.

  911. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    G. Love …. The manny contract is no longer a bad one. They are finally on a year to year basis with him, so he would never pass waivers again. It’s similar to the yankees picking up Abreu’s contract. $16 million is too much, but it’s only one year.

    .. I think the Sox WOULD pay fair market for Santana …. but the price in young talent could not be too high. They don’t need an ace, but it would be nice to go for the kill shot.

  912. yankee21 December 1st, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    G. Love; I agree 100%.. Lots of people here are sounding despearate and saying Cash and Hank are negotiating foolishly by speculating on an outcome that is far from concluded.

    I trust Cashman and the organization to do the right thing. If it means losing Hughes and Melky for the top LH in the game,, so be it.

  913. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    raymagnetic – “Andrew Brackman. If he makes a full recovery” that’s a bigger “if” than I can justify counting on at this point.

  914. Damien December 1st, 2007 at 6:43 pm

    Are we talking about the best LHP in the game or what? I mean I love Hughes too but we got to give up something.

  915. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    it might actually be Hughes, MElky, Alberto… Twins are interested in the SS though they prefer Horne (hopefully the yanks keep Horne)

  916. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    right on Damien…

  917. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    “raymagnetic – “Andrew Brackman. If he makes a full recovery” that’s a bigger “if” than I can justify counting on at this point. ”

    Big Joe if it was his shoulder that was messed up I’d be more worried about his recovery. He should be able to recover from TJ surgery, however you’re right he still is an unknown quantity at the moment.

  918. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    raymagnetic:

    Neither. I have a strong dislike of money. Makes everything too complicated.

  919. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    Vazquez, Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson.

    Comparing Santana now to any of those guys at the time of the trade is just silly…. Look at the last 4 years Santana has put up…

    I wonder if there where similar sentiments when the Sawx traded for pedro… Pavano at the time of the trade was pretty highly regarded…
    you can see his minor league accolades on his wiki

  920. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Not sure they are shopping for a SS. They just got Brenden Harris and he is at least serviceable. I am not Gonzo is much better.

  921. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    And what about the Twins…doesn’t it say something about Hughes that they insisteted that he be included in a deal.

    There is no organization that is able to evaluate talent as well as the Twins. For all the people saying that Hughes’s outcome is far from determined, just look at the Twins determination to get him.

    and raymagnetic…please…you think the Red Sox, who have no need for Santana, weren’t trying to raise the stakes on Santana and force the Yanks to include Hughes in a deal.

    You haven’t been paying attention for the past 10 years.

  922. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 1st, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Some jerk on Yes Boards just said the deal is now final – hughes, melky, alberto gonzalez…

    well then he’s wrong nothing has been announced

  923. Boston Dave December 1st, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Big Joe – word is the third player is Horne or Gonzalez.

  924. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    raymagnetic – sounds like we are on the same page there. A ton of promise in that kid if his arm heals. That will be a conversation for next November.

  925. CB December 1st, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    raymagnetic,

    i’ve followed andrew brackman’s career closely since he lit up the cape cod league last summer and it looked like he would go top 3 in the draft.

    so yeah I’ve “heard” about him. I was happy the yankees drafted him. and didn’t mind that they gave him a $4million dollar bonus. But i didn’t like the fact that they gave him a major league deal. He has a ton of upside. But he’s also got huge question marks that porcello doesn’t.

    Anyway, to somehow equate Andrew Brackman who has just had tommy john surgery, has only played baseball full time for one year in college, never stayed healthy (had a significant hip injury as a sophomore that caused him to miss a lot of time before all of the elbow troubles as a junior) with Rick Porcello is silly.

    Porcello hasn’t had TJ. And he already has better secondary offerrings than Brackman.

    Porcello’s uniformly considered the best high school prospect since Beckett. Many people already consider him a top 20 prospect in all of baseball. MiLB had him as the 14th best prospect.

    No one thinks of Brackman like that. No one. Except perhaps some yankee fans.

    http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....p50/y2008/

  926. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Again time will tell…

    I can’t think of anyone who wasn’t salivating to get Vazquez…how’d that turn out.

    Might’ve been nice to have Nick Johnson as an option at 1st instead of Giambi, Meintkeiwicz, Shelley Duncan, Josh Phelps, on and on and on

  927. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Rebecca as somebody once told me, “Money makes the Mare run!”

    Jonathon, Do you really think the Red Sox would like the Yankees to land Johan? Do you really think they want the Yankees to get a bonafied #1 starting pitcher?

    Think about it. Phil Hughes/Melky/Prospect for Johan

  928. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Boston Dave – Well that’s one word. But we sure have had a lot of “latest updates”. I’d love it to be Gonzo but I just would be surprised if they want another young SS.

  929. G. Love December 1st, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    Brian,

    I know they have come to peace with Manny’s contract at this point. They could never get him through waivers again.

    Doesn’t mean they like cutting a $20 million check to him every season.

    And don’t throw Drew and Dice K into this. Drew is not a top dollar guy and Boston put in injury out clauses so they don’t have to pay him if he doesn’t perform and get injured like he always did.

    Dice K didn’t get 100 million. His ex team in Japan got 50 million that doesn’t count towards luxury tax. That money meant nothing to Boston. It a sunk cost.

    They paid that 50 and then beat up Dice K on his player contract.

    Boras actually told Dice K to go back to Japan since he felt Boston’s offer was so below market for him.

    Yes they spent 100 million on the guy, but only half of it counted against the luxury tax so it didn’t end up hurting them more.

    Paying Johan market value will hurt them more in their renegotiations with their own players and with future free agents.

    Once Boston sets the market, then every agent and free agent will hold them to that. It’s what happened to the Yankees.

    Good luck resigning Beckett and Papelbon if you give Johan 20 million + a year.

    They won’t do it.

  930. raymagnetic December 1st, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    CB, this is what Baseball America had to say about Andrew Brackman.

    However, at his best, Brackman had some of the best stuff and athleticism of any pitcher in the draft, touching 99 mph at times with his fastball and flashing a plus spike curveball.

    That would mean at his best he is Joba Chamberlain like, no?

  931. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Honestly, I don’t think Red Sox care if the Yankees get Johan…

    The Red Sox have a sick rotation anyway and know that it would be difficult for any team to beat them in October.

    With Johan, the Yankees have Johan and….who…

    By all accounts here, Joba and IPK (and Hughes) are unproven, minor league talents, whose outcome is far from determined so you can’t count on them.

    Wang…? Mussina…?

    So yeah, Johan might make it more difficult for the Red Sox but not much.

    Also, Damon in CF, with that wet noodle of an arm, on a full time basis is stomach churning proposition.

    How many times did Melky throw out runners this year? He was awesome.

    I just think that the infusion of young talent this year really helped the Yankees and it was exciting to see.

    To go back to the All-Star at every position mentality, that never results in wins, is just discouraging, IMHO.

  932. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    “That would mean at his best he is Joba Chamberlain like, no?”

    Not yet…Joba has 4 plus/plus-plus pitches.

  933. 27for27 December 1st, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    One concern about Santana is that he has not been dominant in the postseason. He has started 4 games in the ALDS with 2 losses and 1 win and an overall era of 3.23. This is not bad, but certainly not dominant. He has one game that he started in the ALCS which he lost, giving up 4 runs in 3 innings (era=10.8).

    Some pitchers are really dominant in the postseason, such as Beckett. Santana does not seem to be one of them. I don’t know, but Hughes looked pretty good in game 3 of the ALDS this year.

  934. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    The Twins don’t evaluate everything correctly: David Ortiz.

  935. Stefan Weaver December 1st, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    “Dice K didn’t get 100 million. His ex team in Japan got 50 million that doesn’t count towards luxury tax. That money meant nothing to Boston.”

    I feel like I’ve been lied to all these years – decades of pleading poverty, and now Boston can throw $50 million around with ease.

    I don’t know that the Yankees can compete with such bottomless coffers – it isn’t like the Steinbrnners have Carl Pohlad-type money to play with, after all.

  936. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    G. Love and that’s why I think the Yankees are really bidding against themselves in these negotiations.

    As much as they say they are, the Red Sox are not serious suitors. They are only in the auction to drive up the price on the Yankees.

    They don’t need Santana, they can’t afford to pay him 20+ millions dollars a year and they would never give up their best prospects in the deal (Ellsbury and Buchholz were off the table from the start).

  937. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:05 pm

    Oh come on are you really judging Johan and Phil based on a handful of starts in santana’s case, and one relief appearance in Phil’s case?? This is why smart baseball execs let the fans and media overdramatize postseason stats. People stupdily go crazy over these extremely small sample sizes. Brosius was below .240 in the playoffs. Surprised, huh?

  938. Drive 4-5 December 1st, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    I’ve got a Santana update!!!

    He’s getting dressed to go out for dinner. My source says he’s sick of Chinese and wants Italian!!

  939. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    Let’s see if Syracuse can actually pretend to play defense today.

    Probably not.

  940. dontfirecash (though if he trades Phil, I might reconsider) December 1st, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    Joba does not have four plus pitches. He has two as far as I know(fastball, slider) and his curveball is pretty good. His changeup still needs work.

  941. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 7:08 pm

    Actually Brosius hit .245 in the playoffs. But hit .314 in his 4 world series. I’ll take that. here is the link

    http://www.baseball-reference......sc01.shtml

  942. CB December 1st, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    raymagnetic,

    Brackman is not in Joba’s class because he’s never demonstrated Joba’s command nor can you compare his knuckle curve (which he throws inconsistently) to joba’s devastating slider. brackman also only throws 2 pitches.

    look there is no doubt brackman has unlimited upside but he’s the epitome of high risk high reward.

    quite honestly I don’t expect anything of him because he’s pure potential. Baseball Prospectus ranked him as only the 9nth best prospect in the yankee organization.

    Rick Porcello is considered one of the 20 best prospects in all of baseball and the yankees came close to being able to draft him. but the draft’s not horse shoes…

    There’s the major issue of his injury. But there’s also a host of other issues with him.

    He’s alread 22.. He’ll take a full year to come back. So that puts him at 23. He’s very, very raw. He’s going to start in A ball. He’s 6ft 11 and may take years to develop. So if everything worked out he’ll be in the majors at age 25-26. And if he doesn’t develop a 3rd/ 4th pitch he may wind up as a closer.

    That limits his value a great deal. There is no way to compare him to Porcello as a prospect at this point.

  943. 27for27 December 1st, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    err

    5 games is not an exceptionally small sample for a pitcher, especially when you are talking about postseason games. We all tend to agree that Beckett is dominant based on a sample of 8 games (6-2; 1.73 era). I will certainly agree with you that we can’t judge Hughes based on one game, although I think most of us were impressed with several aspects of his performance including coming in mid-game with the season on the line. Makes you want to see more.

  944. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:12 pm

    “To go back to the All-Star at every position mentality, that never results in wins, is just discouraging”

    The yankees have done quite well in recent years. They win between 94 and 103 games every year. How does that not result in wins? They have the most wins since 2002.

    The playoff losses have mostly been due to starting pitchers who have terrible performances. 2005 was Mussina and Johnson. 2006 was Johnson and Wright. 2007 was Wang and Clemens and Wang. Not even Manny/Ortiz win with that type of starting pitching. That has nothing to do with “an all-star at every position”

    The reason those guys became all-stars is because they are the best players in baseball. Would you rather have the best players, or the people who are not the best player? Huh?

    I hate when people use that stupid cliche. Would you rather have below-average players at each position??

  945. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:12 pm

    MLBtraderumors.com, per Ken Rosenthal:

    UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 5pm: Ken Rosenthal says the Twins are asking for shortstop Alberto Gonzalez or starter Alan Horne as the third player from the Yankees. Doesn’t sound like Hughes + Kennedy is any kind of possibility. The Yankees cracked and put Hughes in…unless the Red Sox crack and put Ellsbury in it seems like Santana will end up in the Bronx.

  946. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    G. Love:
    I posted the fact that Boston could easily afford Santana AND give Beckett a raise, since they can write off Manny ($20 Mil) and Schilling ($8 Million) in 2009.

    Don’t be folled by the news that Manny was put on waivers. Teams put players on waivers all the time (as in Manny’s case). Its a way for management to guage what interest there may be in the player for potential trade opportunities. Even if some team puts a claim in, Boston has the option to pull him back. He wasn’t going anywhere without some very good talent being sent in return.

    The fact is Boston DID sign Manny to an 8 year/$160 million
    contract, at the time the second most lucrative in MLB, next to ARod….And they DID attempt to jettison Manny only to take on ARod’s contract before the MLBPA interferred.

    Santana would fit their new philosophy quite will – 28 years old and a 6-year contract would bring him to age 34-35, a time when most MLB players have peaked.

  947. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    Yeah Brosius has a career .278 OBP in the playoffs. That is terrible.

  948. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    dontfirecash — love the name change.

    Although I think this is a Hankee move, I’m sure Cashman doesn’t want to trade Hughes.

  949. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    5 games is a small size for juding anything. I don’t judge any players, pitchers or hitters, based on 5 games. Wang has started 4 games (I think) in the playoffs now and has an insanely high ERA. Does that mean he is a terrible postseason pitcher? No. He just had 2 terrible starts this postseason. prior to that he was fine in october. It’s just too small a sample size to determine anything.

  950. CB December 1st, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    Joba does have 4 pitches. Sure the curve and change need some work but that’s really the usual for a young pitcher. they’re never finished products. Lincecum, Buchholz, Gallardo, Felix Hernandez, etc. They all have pitches to work on to round out their repertoire.

    He used his curve ball very effectively when he showed it after he came up. he’s going to be devastating as a starter.

  951. Big Joe December 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pm

    Yes and no on the sample size. I think we knew in his first postseason what kind of big game pitcher Beckett would be. I still have nightmares about the way he took the yanks to the woodshed in that world series.

  952. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:19 pm

    So Hughes, Melky and Gonzalez for Johan? I’ll take that.

    At least they don’ get two of the NYY high ceiling pitching prospects. Giving up Hughes and Melky, though young and entertaining to watch, is a small price to pay for a 28 year old ace (29 in March).

    IMHO.

    And if you think they are REALLY going to go with Damon in CF until Jackson or Gardner is ready is crazy… Of course Cash will pull something off, maybe big time but prob small time, to get a stopgap until the youth is ready…

    So who are viable CF options? Makes wonder if Torii was still around….Or Ichiro…

  953. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    It’s not a stupid cliche…Yankees have no championship to show for all the money they’ve thrown at players since 2001…

    Those pitching problems you are talking about is exactly what I’m talking about…Randy Johnson, Vazquez, Kevin Brown…the list goes on and on…

  954. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    Cant wait until this stuff is official… ENough is enough…

  955. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    G. Love …. You might be right re: the Sox paying market for Santana. They would certainly stay away if the Yankees weren’t involved ….. but because they are involved the dynamic has changed.

    A couple of things to consider:
    (1) Nobody really knows the Red Sox profit margin, or what their budget is. Everyone assumes that signing Santana would be a tight squeeze for them. I don’t know that that’s the case. The Matsuzaka posting fee has changed my perception of their discretionary resources.

    (2) They wouldn’t admit it, but they absolutely react, and proact (if that’s a word), with the Yankees in mind. There is only one wild card slot. They are fully aware that you can’t just have a “good team” in a vacuum. (Ask Toronto.) This is a relatively new ownership, and, unlike the Harrington Trust, they play to win. They too pay over slot in the draft, overpay free agents, engage in Winter Meeting skulduggery.

    But they actually ACT on enough of these “bluffs” to keep the Yankees, Red Sox fans, and Yankee fans guessing.

    I’ll repeat what I’ve said before. I think they’ll pay the money, but not the prospects (i.e Bucholtz or Ellsbury). That’s one reason that John Henry wanted Burnett (FA) over Beckett (trade for Ramirez, H.), but deferred to the baseball people. If the Yankees go to sleep on this one, the Sox will go for it. Theo isn’t afraid of risk-taking (e.g. trading Nomar).

  956. CB December 1st, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    Rosenthal posted that story (which is mostly a rehashing of a ny post story) this morning.

    I don’t see how it’s updated from this morning. He said the third player was gonzalez or horne then.

    Gonzalez would be fine as the third player. they were looking at him as a utility guy anyway.

  957. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    If i was Minny, i would try and get hughes from the yankees… We are not going to fleece the twins for Johan…

    Eliminating his six appearances in relief, Santana has a 2.98 ERA in his five postseason starts and a 1.35 ERA in his three starts since 2004.

  958. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    No it applies to Beckett as well. If Josh Beckett pitched a season’s worth of innings (say 230 IP) in October do you think his October ERA would be closer to 3.50 or 1.73?

    He has had 8 awesome games so far. But that doesn’t mean he is going to magically change into some demigod once October begins.

  959. zack December 1st, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    27for27, please, go look at the stats. Santana has been nothing short of money in his dominant era. In 2003 and 2002, in his first season as a starter and when he was a reliever, neither of which were his best years, he got roughed up. Since then? An ERA around 1.5…

  960. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    Ok you don’t want an all-star at every position? So who here do you not want on your team?

    Jeter
    Cano
    Posada
    Damon
    Matsui
    Abreu
    ARod

    Huh? Who is really hurting this team because he is an all-star at his position?? Huh???

    The idea is: having all-stars produces more wins than not having all-stars. it is one of the most logical a baseball fan should be able to understand.

  961. Mitchell's Eleven December 1st, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    Shamus,

    Not going with youth in CF, and spending even more, is just sad. What an unfortunate turn of events for this team. Just when you thought the franchise was headed in the right direction…

    NoMaas, for once, has a really well-written fre paragraphs on the Hughes situation on their front page which really hits home. Well worth reading.

  962. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 7:27 pm

    Scotty B wasn’t a great hitter, but he clutched like nobody’s business.

    I’ll take that every time.

  963. BBFan December 1st, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    Just to divert attention from Santana, let us discuss Andy Pettitte.

    We all like him and we want him back. He rejected the option and is contemplating whether he wants to retire.

    The question is how much time he needs to decide whether he wants to retire?

    There may be other things at play here, specifically Mitchell report.

    If you recall, quite sometime back, both Roger Clemense and Andy Pettitte names were linked to the banned substnaces, specifically the blacked out names in the affidavit. Both Roger and Andy, who were with Astros at that time, vehemently denies the allegations.

    I sincerely beleive them. However, all the suspected palyers were asked by Mitchell either to be interviewed or to provide documnetaiton refuting the allegations. So, all the suspected players, whether they used the banned substances or not, will be concerned about thier names showing up in the Mitchell report.

    Being the honorable person he is, Andy may not want to go through answering the media day in day out if his name is in the report. Is it possible that Andy is waiting until Mitchell report is out before finally deciding?

    I for one, do not beleive that Andy has any thing to do with the banned substnaces. But it is unfortunate his name was thown out there and no one knows what is going to happen.

  964. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    “Yankees have no championship to show for all the money they’ve thrown at players since 2001″

    Yes they have no titles, but it was stated that they don’t win because of an “all-star at every position” which is just completely false. They have the most wins in baseball since 2002, so that contradicts that.

  965. CB December 1st, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    I’m ambivalent about trading Hughs.

    But honestly – stop knocking Santana. He is absolutely phenomenal. Just amazing.

    He’s pitched to an ERA+ of around 150 the past 4 years.

    That’s not just good – that’s shocking.

    This past year he had his “worst” season and pitched to an ERA + of 133.

    His worst year is better than the best year’s many all star caliber pitchers have.

  966. Caltech December 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    yes yes yes. give up hughes.

  967. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    Those pitching problems you are talking about is exactly what I’m talking about…Randy Johnson, Vazquez, Kevin Brown…the list goes on and on…

    Again, at the time of the trade, they where not nearly as dominant as Johan is now…

  968. our neighbor December 1st, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    Why isn’t a counter offer being presented to the twins before giving up Hughes? Let’s say (original package) + Igawa + lots of cash + lot more cash ????

  969. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    Olney just updated this at 7:30 pm!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3136495

    Sounds liek the NYY have put a time limit on their offer to Minny.

  970. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    The results speak for themselves. 0 championships and nothing past the 1st round in 3 years.

    I like the Yankees lineup the way it is…the line-up is good enough to pound in the regular season and get to the playoffs.

    The playoff, pitching win. Johan Santana himself doesn’t give the Yankees enough to beat the Red Sox. So why do the deal.

    This deal will hurt the Yankees in the long run and I don’t like it.

    Too many times the Yankees have paid for what a player has done in the past with disappointing results in the future.

    Again all you have to do is look at the internal debate among the Yankee brass to see how important Hughes is.

    Santana is the Twins past, Hughes is the Yankees future.

  971. trudat December 1st, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    yeah making surefire statements about someone only using a few games worth of data is stupid.

    arod hit .317 over his first 82 october at-bats. if you flashback to that time, which was 2004, and looked at thos enumbers, you would say he is a great postseason hitter

    then over his next 72 october at-bats he has hit .200. so a lot of aynkee fans say he can’t hit in the clutch, since they are unaware of his awesome numbers prior to that which mostly happened in a seattle uniform.

    but i agree with the other guy. if alex had like 600 atbats in cotober, his average would be a heck of a lot closer to .300 than .200 . people are just too quick to judge because the playoffs are so hyped and every atbat and pitch is magnified so much

  972. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    “So who are viable CF options?”

    If the Santana deal is done and Melky goes, the Yankees could be tempted to sign Japan’s Kosuke Fukudome. He’s 30 years old, a righty, has some power and is an excellent outfielder and wants a 3-year contract. He currently plays RF now but can function as a CFer. No trade chips or draft picks needed.

  973. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    The results speak for themselves. 0 championships and nothing past the 1st round in 3 years…

    That is because of our pitching situation… Adding 220+ innings of ACE quality to our rotation helps the starters, and rests the bullpen.

    I understand your long term concerns – but this is a sound deal…

    I also have concerns about Johan handling new york, but we need this guy…

  974. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    jonathan – sorry for botching that reply – i am not trying to make people think your reply includes my bantering….

  975. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    i wonder how much of this could be the steinbrothers trying to get there pops another world series while he still can enjoy it…

  976. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    “The results speak for themselves. 0 championships and nothing past the 1st round in 3 years.

    I like the Yankees lineup the way it is…the line-up is good enough to pound in the regular season and get to the playoffs.

    The playoff, pitching win. Johan Santana himself doesn’t give the Yankees enough to beat the Red Sox. So why do the deal.

    This deal will hurt the Yankees in the long run and I don’t like it.

    Too many times the Yankees have paid for what a player has done in the past with disappointing results in the future.

    Again all you have to do is look at the internal debate among the Yankee brass to see how important Hughes is.

    Santana is the Twins past, Hughes is the Yankees future.”

    Jonothon– I agree to a point with you,,, However, the ‘aces’ the Yankees have brought in the last seven years have failed b/c they are past their prime and in decline… Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, et all.

    Johan will be 29 and is in his prime. Phil Hughes, while he is fun to watch, is a prospect. If every prospect turned into the phenom they were supposed to, then, for example, Drew Henson would be at 3B, and Wily Mo Pena would be in RF for us right now…

  977. err December 1st, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    “The results speak for themselves. 0 championships and nothing past the 1st round in 3 years.”

    Oh I see so you are one of those spoiled yankee fans who take it for granted that they will reach october every year. Were you around to follow this team in the playoff drought from 82 to 93? You would appreciate what making the playoffs mean a little more. A lot more, in fact. Making the playoff is difficult. They do just fine with that by having all-stars at lots of positions. Do you think they would even make the playoffs if they had a team of Darin Erstads out there??

    “The playoff, pitching win. Johan Santana himself doesn’t give the Yankees enough to beat the Red Sox.”

    The Yankees won the 2007 regular season series with Boston. Without Santana. Boston did not defeat the Yankees this October, they beat the Angels, Indians, and Rockies. The ALCS rematch never happened. But it would have been competeitive and you could definitely make a case for the Yankees winning. And now with santana, the chances of beating Boston improve. Also, the Yankees lost the division by 2 games. Santana imrpoves them by more than 2 wins. So how exactly doesn’t this give the Yankees enough to beat Boston, considering how close the two teams were last season??

  978. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    El Comaduce…np…

    btw…how do you do that box thing?

  979. BBFan December 1st, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    Many are agianst Hughes for Santana.

    What if Yanks win a WS in the next three years with Santana? Then is it worth it? Many teams like Cubs, Phillies will make such a trade in a heart-beat.

  980. Jeff December 1st, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    We need Johan and Johan needs us. He’s the guy who will push our team to a championship. Gotta give to get, but not giving up a third good prospect in addition to Hughes and Melky. No Horne, Tabata, Kennedy, or Jackson.

  981. back bench December 1st, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    Steve How You Doin

    “Yanks would be trading Hughes, Melky and another for just one year of Santana – that’s it. Because if they waited, then they could get Santana as a FA after next season.”
    ___________________________________________________________

    If the Yankess make the horrible offer of Hughes, Melky and Horne, and MN accepts and lets BC speak directly with Santana’s team and BC tells the Santana team that the Yankees can’t do the deal now (low $$ because of all of the complications MN is causing)) but if he waits until he is an FA, he can back up the truck, is that tampering? Just stupid me asking.

  982. Shamus December 1st, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Just read the Fukudome rumor at MLBTR.com… Hey, if he only wants three years and can play good defense, why not…

    That way they don’t have to rush the kids, Jackson, Tabata… As Melky will tell you, getting called up too early can have its trials and tribulations (Trots ISTP HR in Melky’s debut in Fenway).

    And Matsui and Damon can play out the final two years of their contracts where they belong– spare time at LF and at DH/1B when Giambi is gone in 09…

  983. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    you have to type blockquote: stuff

    make sure to close it… When you do it, use a o not a zero as i did…

    View source to see in action…

  984. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:50 pm

    sorry jonathan… every time i try and tell you how to do it, IT does not work….

    blockquote
    view the page source, and you will see what i mean
    /blockquote

  985. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    I am super confused – i can complete convince myself that boston would sign Johan – but then i can completely convince myself that there is no way they sign him….

    i am glad i am not a GM and just some clueless person behind a keyboard….

  986. Jeff NJ December 1st, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    I don’t mind Damon in center for a season with a defensive youngster behind him for late innings. Keep in mind Damon admittedly came into camp last year in terrible shape coming off injury. He was much improved in the 2nd half. Yes we would misss Melky’s arm, it was a great asset, but I don’t think Jackson or Tabata are that far away. I saw someone mention Mike Cameron’s name, that one intrigues me a bit, but I still think we’re better off sticking the Damon and the offensive players we have.

  987. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    El Comoduce…I think I got it…

    sorry jonathan… every time i try and tell you how to do it, IT does not work….

    A test…

  988. Rich December 1st, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    Get DeJesus for cf…Grienke for the bullpen….see you in spring training.

  989. Rex December 1st, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    Most of what Boston does is built around what the Yankees do. The Yankees are fovever in the heads of the Red Sox and their fans. Not the case with the Yankees. They’ve always known who they are and what they need to do and need only to impress themselves and their fans.
    The average Boston fan would be hard pressed to be able to say who they faced in the 2004 World Series. All they know is that their real World Series will always be if the Yankees lose at anything. Clear cut obsession and generations of it.

  990. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Err…

    Oh I see so you are one of those spoiled yankee fans who take it for granted that they will reach october every year. Were you around to follow this team in the playoff drought from 82 to 93?

    I don’t recognize the name so I’m guessing you just starting posting here recently.

    If you want you can go back an check my previous posts throughout the season and the postseason to see what my opinion of the Yankees is. I don’t feel I have to rehash for you, who comes late to the party.

    The Yankees won the 2007 regular season series with Boston.

    With Boston not starting Dice-K, Manny or Okajima because they had wrapped up at least a playoff spot. They didn’t care about winning the East…making the playoffs was the goal…as it should be for every team.

  991. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Jeff NJ:
    Its not so bad to have Damon in CF, but with Matsui in LF, it’ll turn into Extra Base Alley! Neither has the arm to prevent runners from taking extra bases. Yankees need to shore up the OF defense when/if Melky leaves – either through Free Agency or their MilB system. I’ve never seen Gardner play so I am not sure if he’s ready to handle MLB.

  992. hmmm December 1st, 2007 at 8:05 pm

    “but if he waits until he is an FA, he can back up the truck, is that tampering? ”

    yes.

  993. sharp shooter December 1st, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    Shamus sorry I left the blog for awhile the previous thread,
    If one lefty goes another lefty is needed.

    Bobcat explains all @ 9:43pm
    Pete answers him @ 12:12 am

    read all the posts in between Bobcat and Pete they say it all.

  994. NJ December 1st, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    Jonathon I hate to burst your bubble here but Dice-K and Okajima both pitched in that last series against the Yankees. Nice try though.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....=270914102

  995. CB December 1st, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Fukudome is a left handed batter. He also had elbow surgery – bone chip removal- this season on his throwing arm.

    They do not need another left handed bat on the team. Part of what makes losing melky hurt is that you lose his switch hitting and have an all left handed hitting outfield again.

  996. Eric December 1st, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    off topic question – sorry if this has already been asked before. the yankees offered arbitration to pettitte, so what happens if he retires? do they get any extra picks? thanks.

  997. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    Yankees will definately miss Melky’s arm and energy.

    Question is will Santana and his 35 starts make up for Melky’s everyday defense?

  998. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:10 pm

    Good question…I don’t know but I would assume if he retires the Yankees get nothing…

    Anybody???

  999. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    Rex …. The Red Sox fans may be a little obsessive concerning the yankees, but the John Henry group isn’t. They aren’t stupid, though. They are aware of what the Yankees are doing, and craft strategies to maintain a competitive advantage (hopefully).

    Most Red Sox fans are also Pats fans, and we are being quickly schooled on how to be obnoxious front-runners, rather than woebegone losers. So your sterotype is no longer valid. We are more like Yankee fans than Yankee fans …. full of ourselves and pompous. Not pretty, but we do have role models.

    So insult us if you must, but please target the proper character flaws.

  1000. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    Err,
    UH, Giambi, Sheffield, Moose, Johnson, Brown, Farnsworth, Womack,
    Point is, that going for someone coming of a big year or a big name ensures nothing but high luxury tax. I am tired of the Yankees finance the rest of the leagues payroll so the Royals and Cubs can pay the Gil Meche types and Ted Lilly types way more than they are worth.

    The Yankees had a plan and were heading in the right direction with that plan. Their future looked extremely bright. They are selling that future for a couple of good years out of Santana.

    This trade does not put them over the top. Boston is still better and Boston will remain better because they hold on to their best prospects unless they are trading for a 25 year old ace not a 30 year old ace.

    If the Yankees are not going to win it all in 08 than why make this trade? Beckett will out-duel Santana in a head to head in the play-offs.

    I would rather keep with the program and build another dynasty for the 2010s decade. This trade is what the old Yankees would do, like trading for Randy Johnson when Beltran could have been had.

  1001. ray December 1st, 2007 at 8:15 pm

    “The average Boston fan would be hard pressed to be able to say who they faced in the 2004 World Series.”

    Rex…that has to be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on this blog. Have the Sox gained some fans in the last couple of years? Sure…but there is large group of hardcore Sox fans that can tell you what Yastremski’s batting average was in 67, etc.

  1002. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    VOII

    Good post.

  1003. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    “If you want you can go back an check my previous posts throughout the season and the postseason to see what my opinion of the Yankees is. I don’t feel I have to rehash for you, who comes late to the party.”

    I am not going to do this because what you are saying in this thread shows me that you think the Yankees winning in the regular seasons means little since they have zero titles in recent years. You say “the results speak for themselves.” Then why do you disregard the fact that the Yankees go to october every year? Those are part of the results, right? The bottom line is that you have to look at the underlying causes of the results. And having an all-star at lots of positions is not the cause of the Yankees not winning world titles in recent years.

    And you previosuly said something about Santana not being enough to beat Boston. The Yankee offense handled Beckett very well last year, and Beckett had a 4.39 ERA against the Yankees last year. I believe Santana could outpitch him in a Game 1 situation. Schilling had a 5.51 ERA against the Yankees last year. Wang can beat him in a Game 2. The Yankees obliterated Matsuzaka last season. I think his ERA was over 6.00 against them. I believe Joba can outpitch him in a game 3. And I’ll give the Red Sox the advantage with Buchholz over kennedy/mussina in a game 4. Then of course I believe that santana could outpitch Beckett again, Wang can outpitch Schilling again, etc. Without Santana I am not nearly as confident in the yankee playoff rotation. He makes a huge difference since he is better than beckett.

  1004. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 1st, 2007 at 8:20 pm

    Brian–That was funny.

    I am really not digging the pessimism.

  1005. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:21 pm

    NJ…oops…well Manny didn’t play…does change the line-up drastically.

    And despite the Yankees winning the season series…the way the Red Sox played in October, I don’t think the Yankees would’ve beat them…Santana doesn’t change that.

  1006. gayle December 1st, 2007 at 8:21 pm

    If Andy retires yanks get nothingand Andy gets nothing

  1007. virginislands December 1st, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    Yeah Rex. Ray is right. The Red Sox accomplished wanted they wanted to. The Yankees give up Hughes.

  1008. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! December 1st, 2007 at 8:23 pm

    Check out the espn mlb poll. Who will Johan pitch for in 2008. The entire country with the exception of New England says the Yankees. :lol:

  1009. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:24 pm

    I am not going to do this because what you are saying in this thread shows me that you think the Yankees winning in the regular seasons means little since they have zero titles in recent years.

    Whatever dude…

  1010. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    “Point is, that going for someone coming of a big year or a big name ensures nothing but high luxury tax.”

    I said nothing about going after guys coming off of career years. I definitely did want the Yankees to waste the money or draft picks or time commitment by chasing Type A free agents like Lowell or Rowand, as a recent example of this.

    I was ranting against the meaningless cliche that the Yankees don’t win world titles “because they have an all-star at every position.” It is one of the dumbest things a baseball fan can say.

    Santana is not a guy coming off a career year. he is unquestionably the best pitcher in baseball over the last 5 years. To say that beckett would outduel him in october is pure speculation, just as it is to say that santana would outduel him. However, the last 5 years worth of data overwhelmingly convinces me that Santana is a better pitcher than beckett and would be more likely to defeat him. And over the course of a 162 game season, a pitcher that can give you 230 innings with a 3.00 ERA and a 1.00 WHIP is pretty damn valuable. The Yankees didnt have any starter even close to those numbers last year.

  1011. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    virginislands…exactly…this was a big game of poker…and the Red Sox won by getting the Yankees to put Hughes into the mix.

    The Yankees should’ve called their bluff.

  1012. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    “They are selling that future for a couple of good years out of Santana.”

    Your right they are selling of their billion-dollar corporation and ALL of their prospects.. not just an awesome potential pitcher and a mediocre center fielder and someone to be named later..

    Make’s total sense to me… their future if they get Santana is for sure *doomed*.

    say what.. ?

  1013. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 8:27 pm

    CB:
    Absolutely right on! Fukudome is a lefty batter. He throws righty. Thanks for correcting.

    Here’s the scouting report on Fukudome:
    Fukudome is one of the better athletes playing in Japan. He is capable of playing center field and right field. He is a five-tool player capable of hitting in the middle of the batting order or in the number two spot. During the middle of the 2007 season he was hit by a pitch and missed the remainder of the season.

    The 30-year old Fukudome is a championship player capable of performing under pressure situations, so this means he should be able to play in bigger markets in MLB. Just like with American-born players, some Japanese players can handle the bigger markets (Hideki Matsui, Daisuke Matsuzaka) while others can’t (Kaz Matsui, Hideki Irabu).

    Scouts Rating (The scouts rating evaluates a player’s raw tools on a 20-80 scale. Albert Pujols, for reference, rates a 75.)

    Overall: 62
    Power: 65
    Hit: 55
    Field: 70
    Speed: 60
    Arm: 60
    Player Category “GOOD”

    MLB projections

    When evaluating the 2007 MLB line-ups, Fukudome could bat fifth in the line-up for 11 of the 30 teams. He projects to the following:

    .265-.285 BA
    .380 OBP
    20-30 HR
    80-100 RBIs
    10 SB

  1014. sharp shooter December 1st, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    Different mgr now and different in game play next season.
    Joe G well manage a different game than Torre.Torre relied soley on the long ball,when bats went silent he had no game plan.Joe G is a scrapper we may see some manufactured runs.
    (small ball)If he could manage fla that well,what will he do with these all stars?

  1015. Eric December 1st, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    it seems like they’d probably get no compensation if he retires, but he already said that he’d either pitch for the yankees, or retire. why bother offering compensation if they’d get nothing if he retires? just to cover their bases?

  1016. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:29 pm

    Satana is 28 (will be 29) where do you get off saying a couple of good years? Do you know Miss Cleo personally?

    You should be a politician since your post is extremely exaggerated and only someone with no brain would agree with you.

    Guess pitchers these days once they hit 31 should be taken out back and shot? Cause that is all they’re worth..

    geez people, think a little before you post.

  1017. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:30 pm

    Err,
    Check the Yankees numbers against Beckett in the Play-offs. Check anyone’s numbers against Beckett in the PLay-offs. Santana is not better than Beckett anymore. Beckett will beat Santana easy in a play-off match-up. Santana has failed in the play-offs and in high pressure situations. There is no higher pressure situation than facing the Redsox in the play-offs.

  1018. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    And Tony Womack wasn’t coming off of any career year. he has always been a terrible baseball player. Why was his name even brought up?

    And in case you didn’t notice, Gary Sheffield was awesome before his injury-plagued third year as a Yankee. He was not a guy that disappointed us from a performance standpoint.

    And I have bad feelings about Kevin brown just like everyone else. But we had just lost Pettitte to Houston, and so they traded jeff Weaver to get brown. I would’ve traded Jeff Weaver for a pissed-on fire hydrant at the time. Brown was not a “typical” Yankee free agent signing. We were exchanging our trash for some guy that used to be good. obviously it didn’t work out, but i have no problems with getting rid of jeff weaver.

  1019. Wes December 1st, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Many major league deals can be described as “where there’s smoke there’s fire” but in this case it’s like one of those California wildfires.

  1020. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    Wow, lots of rationalization in the past few hours from the inferiority complex ridden Sux fans who come in here trolling Yankee boards to try to compensate for the fact that they still, despite 2 WS wins, feel inadequate. LOL especially at, “The Red Sox accomplished wanted they wanted to. The Yankees give up Hughes” …let me guess, next you’ll tell me that finishing 1n 3rd place in ’06 was part of the plan all along too, right? Or that losing this year’s season series vs the Yanks was just a ploy so we would let our guards down before facing them in the playoffs? Delusion lives in New England!

    Also, VOIII, you said Beckett would outduel Santana in the playoffs – because Beckett’s the better pitcher, right? Oh wait, he isn’t. I’m not saying Santana would definitely win against him, just that there’s no way to know how that matchup would shake out. Given the fact that Santana’s a much better pitcher plus the Yanks’ ownage of Beckett since he has been with the Red Sox and they have had chances to make adjustments against him, I like Johan’s chances in that scenario just fine.

  1021. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Again…the Yankees haven’t won World Series because of their pitching…and that pitching has included acquiring Javier Vazquez, Kevin Brown, Mike Mussina, Randy Johnson. All pitchers with great past performances.

    A team needs to be a leader when it comes to discovering and developing talent, not a follower.

    The Yankees have not been that over the last few years and that is why they have not had postseason success.

    With Hughes, et al, they started to move in that direction.

    With this trade, they show that once again they are followers. Unfortunately means they will spend the next decade trying to keep up with the Red Sox instead of leading the way.

  1022. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Josh Beckett was terrible in 2006. He was awesome last year. And now that means he is better than Santana? Would you have said that at the beginning of 2007? But all it takes is one year to convince you?

    Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball. You can judge him and Beckett by a small sample of postseason starts. I will go by the fact that Johan has a career 141 ERA+ over 1300 IP. Beckett has a career 116 ERA+ over 1000 career IP. Beckett’s career WHIP is 1.23, Santana’s is 1.094. Do you realize how insanely awesome that is? Santana is much better than Beckett.

  1023. Wolf In Pinstripes December 1st, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    You’ve got to be freaking kidding me… I just spent 15 minutes typing 4 paragraphs and got a damned WordPress error. :(

  1024. Dave December 1st, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    i dont like this – if they really didnt wanna trade hughes, why not say he is untouchable. They came out and said Joba and Cano were untouchable but never said that about hughes. The twins saw that reluctancy and demanded hughes because they knew the yanks were evtnually planning to put him on the table. It was a dumb move. They should have said hughes and joba were untouchable in order to get the twins to go after cano. Cano is much, much more easily replaceable. If hughes turns into the starts most scouts think he will, this move may turn out to be pretty stupid and the yanks will completely regret not offering cano. We dont even need the offense cano provides esp if we replace melky with Andruw Jones. I dont see why cano would be untouchable. Also, the yanks have to consider that orlando hudson is a free agent next yr and easily obtainable. Additionally, the free agent market next yr is stocked with first baseman. Teixera will be a yankee next yr for sure. We dont need cano, we need hughes. Unless the yanks offered up cano and the twins still said no dice, we want hughes, the yanks went about this incorrectly. And i didnt hear a thing about the yanks offering cano to the twins. Cashman’s major bright spots of his career surrounded his ability to retain hughes for yrs – something the yanks just couldnt do with number one prospects prior. He makes this deal and his reputation will suffer. I love santana and i want him but i think hughes is our number one prospect- not chamberlain, not kennedy, not tabata or jackson and hughes will have more value in a yr than cano will ever have.

  1025. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Fleas,
    Santana has a lot of mileage on his left arm and has shown his numbers are on the decline over the last season. Santana is not built like Clemmens or Schilling where he will maintain his velocity forever. There is a good chance he declines rapidly. A least as good of a chance of that happening as Hughes not living up to his potential.

  1026. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Hmm well it’s a good thing the Yankees developed David Cone and Jimmy Key and John Wetteland and Orlando Hernandez and Roger Clemens and David Wells. They never would have won those world titles if those guys had past success elsewhere.

  1027. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    The reason the Yankees lost Pettitte to Houston was because Steinbrenner was too busy trying to woo Sheffield to the Bronx.

  1028. Phil December 1st, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Cano is the 2nd best 2B in baseball. He’s the Yanks only great under 30 position player. He has batting titles and possible MVP’s in his future and is not easily replaceable.

  1029. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    And Mike Mussina did pretty well with his first yankee contract, there’s no way you can lump him in there with Vazquez and Brown and Johnson.

  1030. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:41 pm

    VOIII, your posts are laughable..

    “Check anyone’s numbers against Beckett in the PLay-offs. Santana is not better than Beckett anymore. Beckett will beat Santana easy in a play-off match-up.”

    Right, and again.. you have a crystal ball.

    Chien-Ming Wang will always lose to Paul Byrd too, after all Bryd dominated in Game 4.. who cares that it might be a new game, new situation, new team, new seaso, etc .. doesn’t matter.. Paul Byrd will always beat Wang.. the numbers prove that.

    My god man… Get off the drugs!

  1031. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    Are you saying that the Yankees should have re-signed Pettitte at that time? HDo you not know that the reason they got the awesome Phil Hughes is by direct compensation for Pettitte signing as a free agent with Houston?

  1032. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    “Santana has a lot of mileage on his left arm and has shown his numbers are on the decline over the last season”

    Dude, how can someone’s numbers be on the decline over one season? Doesn’t there need to be MORE than one season of ‘not as mind-bogglingly awesome as usual’ numbers to establish a pattern indicitave of a decline?

    Saying Santana is on the decline because of 2007 (even though he only gave up more than 4 runs in 4 of his 33 outings or something like that – thanks SJ44 :)) is like saying A-Rod is on the decline because of 2006.

  1033. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    Hmm well it’s a good thing the Yankees developed David Cone and Jimmy Key and John Wetteland and Orlando Hernandez and Roger Clemens and David Wells. They never would have won those world titles if those guys had past success elsewhere.

    Pettitte and Mariano are/were as much responsible for the Yankees success as those guys. In addition to Jeter, Williams and Posada.

  1034. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 1st, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    BBB …. what with the Sox, Pats and Celtics, there are no fans left in NE with an inferiority complex. If we are insufferable, it has nothing to do with feeling bad about ourselves.

    We are trolling the yankees blogs (1) in the interest of free speech, and (2) because we can finally show our faces in public after decades of humiliation.

    And we NEVER had an inferiority complex … we WERE inferior. Things are so much better now …. almost like being a Yankee fan ….. in the late 90s.

  1035. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    Santana has said time and time again that last year he was not happy in Minny..

    when you are not happy where you are, how motivated are you to go out there everyday and give it your gusto?

    Still, with that said.. He had a bad year that most pitchers in the MLB would kill for.

    BBB, well said about the Arod example.

  1036. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    Err,
    Beckett was adjusting to a new league in 06. In 05 he was pretty damn good. He is now the best pitcher in the American league sans Sabathia. If Santana returns to form and wins 20 games than gets his but kicked in the Play-off what does it matter. We all talk about “Real Yankees” being able to deliver when it counts. Small sample size or not Santana has not shown up when it counts. At least Hughes at 21 years old came in a high pressure must win game and was lights out. As i said earlier if Santana does not put this team over the top and I really don’t believe he does than why the hell make this trade?

  1037. Rob NY December 1st, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    Youre absolutely right Brian (Red sox fan) bandwagon fans and all. Enjoy the extra company for the next few years ^_^

  1038. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 8:48 pm

    That a great point VOII…if this trade doesn’t put the Yankees over the top…why make it?

  1039. calibur December 1st, 2007 at 8:50 pm

    2 bought championships in 89 yrs hardley qualifies redsucks as, close to being like the Yankees.

  1040. Mike R. December 1st, 2007 at 8:50 pm

    A quick general question and please be honest. If you HAD to bet everything you own an either Santana or Hughes winning a Cy Young award sooner. Who would you bet on?

  1041. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:50 pm

    VOIII – You are digging a deeper hole for yourself!

    “Beckett was adjusting to a new league in 06. In 05 he was pretty damn good. He is now the best pitcher in the American league sans Sabathia. ”

    Now, to top it off one good year means he has graduated to being “The best pitcher in the American league”. C’mon man… be real.. he is no doubt a great pitcher, I liked him since he was on the Marlins, but your statements come right out of.. “between your cheeks” and I don’t mean the thing that has your tongue in it… or wait, maybe your tongue is in it man… either way.. you are still on drugs.

  1042. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    BBB: are you still in here? I’ve got TClip news!

  1043. RosterRooster December 1st, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    T Clip is the man, Whats up Andrea?

  1044. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    Fleas,
    Take your Yankee goggles off for a second and look at Becketts post season performances some pithers just rise to the occasion Schilling, Wells, El Duke’,Cone…If the Yankees and Sox make it to the post season and Santana starts against Beckett. My money is on Beckett…

  1045. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Well said, Brian. The Patriots are the closest to a “Dynasty” in the salary-capped NFL. The Red Sox are definitely a force in MLB, but nowhere close to the Yankees of 1996-2001 right now.
    Celtics? That’s a stretch!

  1046. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Santana’s numbers are on the decline over the last season?

    Santana had a 3.33 ERA, Beckett had a 3.27 ERA.
    Santana had a 1.07 WHIP, Beckett had a 1.14 WHIP.
    Santana had a 235 K’s in 219 IP, Beckett had 194 K’s in 200 IP

    Santana had 7 double-digit strikeout games. Beckett had one. Santana had 7 IP or more in 20 of his 33 starts. Beckett did that 15 times out of 30 starts.

    Santana “in decline” is better than Beckett in a career year. But even if you don’t believe that, just look at those “bad” numbers for Santana. He greatly improves the Yankees pitching staff, regardless of what you think about josh beckett. I cant remember the last time the Yankees had a starting pitcher this extremely good.

  1047. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    Sorry, Pitchers….

  1048. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    why make it? Uh…. sorry, then maybe we should just wait to trade everybody at the same time, let’s not fill holes at all.. let’s wait to trade everyone on the same exact day, same hour, minute, second.. then we will be “over-the-top”. Nah.. scratch that.. let’s just trade everyone for the worst people in baseball.. after all, that is what we are doing with Santana right? We are making trades to get worse, not better!

    Jonathan, are you sure your are not A.K.A VOIII ???

  1049. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 8:54 pm

    “We are trolling the yankees blogs (1) in the interest of free speech, and (2) because we can finally show our faces in public after decades of humiliation.”

    Don’t you mean, “we are trolling the Yankees blogs (1) in the interest of sadism and (2) because we are frontrunning bandwagoners and we’ll only show our faces in public when our teams are doing well enough for us to talk shit.” ??

    Yeah thats what I thought.

  1050. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    haha, nothing special. I have a friend who’s been hanging out with him all week. I just figured BBB would b e excited about that because she’s pretty much in love with him. No actual baseball news :)

  1051. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Andrea what?

  1052. Doreen December 1st, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Whew!

    I was out all day. I just spent an hour-ish browsing through most of the posts.

    First, Bobcat, I hope you don’t go away altogether. I enjoyed your posts, and whether it’s “insider info” or just informed opinion, I would certainly miss your input here. You kept the conversation sane for quite a while.

    Second, regarding Boston’s interest in Santana. Technically, no, I guess they don’t “need” Santana. But why should they not be considered to be serious in their pursuit? Having Beckett/Santana or Santana/Beckett in a consistent rotationis a mighty 1-2 punch and clearly elevates their chances to repeat at least as division champs. I do not question that they could pay Santana. I think it is folly to think they will undercut him, but I do see the argument that Boston does not like to set the market. However, they were able to get away with not giving Dice-K what Boras sought for him, and I think this is because they could say that the switch from Japan to US made it a different situation, which, of course, it did. I don’t think they could get away with that with Santana. Basically what they’d have to say to him is, well, we paid Minnesota (whatever players they give up), so you only get such-and-such. Won’t work. So I think they have to be prepared to offer Santana what he wants, and I think they are. Also, if they make Santana a good offer, I think Santana takes it. Money. Talks. Plus, Boston is the reigning world champion and that carries a lot of weight.

    Regarding Andy Pettitte. He wanted to retire last year. It is not outrageous to believe that he still would prefer to retire. There’s really not a whole lot more to say about that. He owes no one a darn thing. Would that we were all so fortunate as to be able to retire at 35 should our jobs no longer be fulfilling. And I’m not being sarcastic.

    Regarding the inclusion of Phil Hughes. I think the Yankees are coming to grips with the fact that Pettitte will not be coming back. They cannot have a rotation completely devoid of (a) a true Ace – which I believe Andy was more than CMW; and (b) a left-handed pitcher (again, Andy P). Unfortunately, because of the uncertainly regarding Pettitte, Hughes has to be in play. And the reason Hughes can be in play this time around while he was not the last 2 off-seasons is because of the emergency of Chamberlain and Kennedy and because of the further development going on in the minor leagues and the plan to continue drafting highly regarded prospects.

    Regarding Melky. This one is completely emotional. I’ll miss the Melk-man. Such unbridled joy. It transcended the television screen. It will be fine with Damon in center, and then we see what goes from there.

    Lastly, I can absolutely see Cashman walking away from the deal completely if Minnesota gets very grabby. You cannot, CANNOT, make a deal that leaves your team weaker. And if you trade Hughes and Kennedy, that is exactly what happens. So, that’s a deal-breaker.

    I would hate to see Boston come out on top here, but there is a line which cannot be crossed, and that would be including 2 high-end prospects who have both pitched successfully, albeit shortly, in the bigs.

    But at any rate, this whole thing does not look to be getting done prior to the meetings, so who knows what’s going to end up happening. Never a dull moment, no?

  1053. Annie Savoy December 1st, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    The Yankees need Hughes and Cabrera more than Santana. Why are they even considering this??

  1054. err December 1st, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    Yankee important homegorwn players in title years as stated by you: Mariano, Andy, Jeter, Posada, Bernie

    Yankee current homegrown players assuming Melky/Hughes are traded: Mariano, Jeter, Posada, Cano, Joba, Kennedy

    You still haven’t convinced me that the late 90′s yankees had more important homegrown players at the MLb level than the current group, and that the late 90′s yankees relied any less on pitching stars with past success like clemens, wells, etc.

  1055. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 8:58 pm

    Andrea: Leaving in a few to go eat dinner, but yay for T-Clip news!! What’s the good word??

  1056. Doreen December 1st, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Ugh!!!! Edit button, please! ‘Emergence’ of Joba and IPK, NOT ‘emergency.’

  1057. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    Fleas,
    Its easy to quote only part of my post and say I’m on drugs but you are not getting the point. Whether or not Beckett is better than Santana is irrelevent. He is absolutely better in the POST SEASON!!!
    Also, the venom you are spuing at me because I don’t share you point of view is a little inmature and uncalled for. Act like a grown-up DUDE!!!

  1058. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 9:00 pm

    “Andrea: Leaving in a few to go eat dinner, but yay for T-Clip news!! What’s the good word??”

    Whoops nevermind, I just read what it was…wow that’s awesome!! If your friend is still hanging out with him, tell him or her to tell T-Clip “hello” and a BIG “hope to see you in the Bronx next year” from his No. 1 fan! :)

  1059. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    BBB: my friend has been hanging out with him (T Clip) golfing all week. They’re like BFF now. They’re facebook friends, he has his email, his screen name, everything. He was buying him drinks last night. They keep trying to call me so I can talk to him, supposedly, but they keep losing service.

    Evidently, T Clip loves my friend. He high fives him a lot.

  1060. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    And Santana does put them over ther top. That’s the reason they are trading away Hughes. Santana is a rare talent.

  1061. Doreen December 1st, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Annie Savoy -

    If Pettitte is retiring, the Yankees absolutely need Santana.

  1062. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    Fleas…although this trade does make the Yankees better right now…it does not make them better than the Red Sox…no matter how many stats you spew out there.

    The Yankees are trading for past performance in a desperate attempt to keep up with the Red Sox.

    I prefer they keep on the course they set over the past few seasons and develop these young pitchers.

    Hughes is 21 and obviously going to be good for a long time…the Twins wouldn’t demand him in a trade if he weren’t going to be. They know talent.

  1063. Andrea December 1st, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    haha. no worries. I re-typed it cause I didn’t know if you saw it. Just figured you’d get a kick out of that :)

  1064. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 9:04 pm

    Interesting, so now there is — or I should say was — for sure someone posting here that is currently on the 40 man roster.. (things that make you say hmm..)

  1065. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:06 pm

    “Whether or not Beckett is better than Santana is irrelevent. He is absolutely better in the POST SEASON!!!”

    This is stupid. They have pitched a small number of games in the postseason. You can make broad conclusions based on a small sample size if you like. I trust over 2000 IP of data between Beckett and Santana that say Santana is flat-out a better pitcher than him.

    Are you the type of fan that would rather have Scott Brosisu as your third baseman instead of A-Rod?

  1066. Fleas December 1st, 2007 at 9:07 pm

    I really really just want to live in Candeleda de Avila

  1067. virginislands December 1st, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    Yeah BBB. I am SO UPSET about losing the season series to the Yankees!!! Talk to me when you have won WS this century.

  1068. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    Fleas,
    You do not trade your best prospect unless it puts you over the top. If you want to make other trades to sure up the Bullpen and first base (and possibly CF), then add a Santana then so be it. However show me how adding Santana and taking away Hughes, Cabrera, Gonzales and Petitte makes this team better than the Redsox…Add the fact that A-Rod and Posada are almost certainly will not repeat their 07 seasons.

  1069. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    Have I missed something? The last time I checked the “Great and Powerful Beckett” is going to be 28 on May 15. Santana is going to be 29 on March 13. Is that one year the reason why he is old and beckett is still young. Also, beckett has spent considerable time on the DL in his career — blister and shoulder issues — and Johan is still going to be the one who breaks down first?

    On the Hughes side, it sucks to have to pay 50k for the BMW, but if you want it, well then you have to pay for it. Don’t get me wrong, I love the kid. His performance in Games 3 was great. But to claim that the “youth movement” is over for the yankees is kind of ridiculous. I thought that the yankees farm system is loaded with prospects and hughes was just one of them? Albeit a great one, but Joba and Ian are still there. And the rest of the system has guys who are close to major league ready, or only a few years away.

    The Red Sox were going to give up one of their “big three” in Lester. I know that he is not Philip the Great but he is still has damn good potential — 11-2 — not bad for a kid on the comeback trail from cancer. People can say what they want about his walks but I have seen this kid pitch a lot and he just seems to know how to get guys out when it matters.

    Johan’s “bad” year — second best WHIP in Baseball — 1.07 — only Peavy 1.06 was better. Also there were only TWO games this year when he gave up more than 4 Earned runs.

    *stats from espn.com

  1070. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    err…I’m not trying to convince you of anything. If there is one thing that I learned in arguing with people it’s that one person will never change another person’s opinion.

    You have your point of view and I have mine.

    The Yankees haven’t won because of pitching. They’ve tried to fix their pitching by acquiring guys that haven’t worked out.

    Forgive me if I’m a little gun shy of trading away a guy who represents and successful formula for a guy that represents and unsuccessful formula…for the Yankees at least.

    I still don’t think the Yankees will be better than the Red Sox with this trade.

    If they don’t make this trade, they might have a chance to be better than the Red Sox in the long term.

    IMHO

  1071. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    Jonathon:
    The Red Sox had 96 wins. The Yankees 94.
    The Red Sox, for all their “great” talent, were down 3 games to 1 to the Indians and on the verge of elimination, just like the Yankees. Beckett, their Ace stepped up and the rest was history. If Santana is a Yankee, the 2-win disparity between to two is a thing of the past.

  1072. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 9:11 pm

    Damon will not be fine in CF…it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

  1073. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 9:13 pm

    Randy Johnson was supposed to be a difference maker too…how’d that turn out?

  1074. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:14 pm

    “although this trade does make the Yankees better right now…it does not make them better than the Red Sox…no matter how many stats you spew out there”

    Yes it does make the Yankees better than Boston. The Yankees lost the division by 2 games last year. Santana gives them more than 2 wins over Phil Hughes in 2008.

    But even ignoring that, this is not some stupid extreme short-term move here. Look beyond next year. Santana is 29 years old. Why do you think he will start sucking all of a sudden? Beckett was terrible in 2006. He showed in 2007 that it was a fluke. Santana was still awesome in 2007, just not as awesome as he usually is. BUT HE WAS STILL AWESOME. This guy is not anywhere near a decline phase. There is a very high probability that he will be much better than Phil Hughes will be over the next 5 years, and by then the Yankees will have other awesome pitching prospects of the Hughes caliber.

    Phil was the highest ranked Yankee prospect. Than Joba was lights out for 2 months and all of a sudden Joba was the untouchable one and Phil dropped in the pecking order. The point is, pojecting these guys is difficult to do with high certainty. There are lots of unknowns with prospects. I expect Phil Hughes to be a really good pitcher since he has such an awesome track record, but Santana is the best in all of baseball and will be awesome for many more years.

    And this shows just how strong the Yankee farm system is. It is so deep with pitching prospects that they can afford to give up Phil and still have great pitching depth in the minors.

  1075. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 9:14 pm

    Err, How many rings does A-Rod have? How many does Scotty B have?
    Beckett has dominated in the Post Season.

    Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W L SV CG IP H ER BB SO
    +——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
    2003 NLDS FLA SFG W 1 1 1.29 0 1 0 0 7 2 1 5 9
    NLCS FLA CHC W 3 2 3.26 1 0 0 1 19.1 11 7 2 19
    WS FLA NYY W 2 2 1.10 1 1 0 1 16.1 8 2 5 19
    2007 ALDS BOS LAA W 1 1 0.00 1 0 0 1 9 4 0 0 8
    ALCS BOS CLE W 2 2 1.93 2 0 0 0 14 9 3 1 18
    WS BOS COL W 1 1 1.29 1 0 0 0 7 6 1 1 9
    +——+—–+—+—+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+
    2 Lg Div Series 2-0 2 2 0.56 1 1 0 1 16 6 1 5 17
    2 Lg Champ Series 2-0 5 4 2.70 3 0 0 1 33.1 20 10 3 37
    2 World Series 2-0 3 3 1.16 2 1 0 1 23.1 14 3 6 28
    6 Postseason Ser 6-0 10 9 1.73 6 2 0 3 72.2 40 14 14 82
    +——————–+—–+—+—+——+–+–+–+–+—–+—+—+—+—+

  1076. Rob NY December 1st, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    wasnt randy johnson on the wrong side of 40 not the right side of 30?

  1077. Tomy Gun December 1st, 2007 at 9:17 pm

    Jonathan

    “Hughes is 21 and obviously going to be good for a long time…the Twins wouldn’t demand him in a trade if he weren’t going to be. They know talent.”

    Brian Rose was Obviously going to be stud as well. Just like Wood and Prior and Generation K. They Twins do know talent — see David “Mr. Clutch Papi” Ortiz — they just don’t know how to keep it! Based on your logic Santana, who has no history of injuries, is going to break down and Phil has no shot of ever getting hurt? I am not worried about the 2012 season, I am worried about the 2008-2010 seasons.

    We are not giving up the farm, just the second best stud on the farm. We still have the Number 1 AND Number 3 stud. Oh and by the way, we will get a Triple Crown Winner as well. I take my chances in that race every day.

    – please excuse the horse racing analogies.

  1078. LathamJoe December 1st, 2007 at 9:17 pm

    Jonathon:
    Randy Johnson was 41 years old and on the downside of his career when he came to the Yankees.
    Santana is 28 years old with perhaps his best years ahead of him.

    Are you serious???

  1079. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    The Randy Johnson move was very different from this. Look at the age difference between him and Santana at time of acquisition.

  1080. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    Beckett is built for longevity Santana isn’t. Throw Pedro out there all you want, but he was the exception. Guy with frames like Santana’s do not throw 90 plus MPH until their 35 or 36 years old

  1081. Nettles vs. Lee December 1st, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    Damon in CF is perhaps the scariest part of these discussions.

    Brett Garnder is absolutely not ready to step in next year, if ever.

  1082. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    Excuse me but since when is number of rings dependent on one guy? Last time I checked it took 25 guys. Brosius and the 24 guys around him performed better than ARod and the 24 guys around him. Simple. But if you say you’s rather have brosius as your third baseman once october starts, you are not thinking clearly.

  1083. Jonathon December 1st, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    Fine…take out Randy Johnson and replace him with Vazquez…

    how’d that turn out?

  1084. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 9:24 pm

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  1085. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:24 pm

    Ok Jonathan then I guess we can agree to disagree.

    I do think that Santana puts them over the top not only this year, but for the next 5 years, so that’s why I am in favor of this trade. If the Yankees had to give up Hughes and Kennedy then I would be much more hesitant.

    And you don’t think that Santana puts them over the top so you don’t see the point in making the trade.

    Fair enough.

  1086. Rob NY December 1st, 2007 at 9:26 pm

    Javy’s best year was 3.4 ERA and when we traded for him it was all on speculation…. he COULD have been great or not… you werent trading for as known a commodity as Santana has been in the last 5 years

  1087. BBB December 1st, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    Also, guys, the BBB posts at 9:11 and 9:15 were not me. All hail required registration! I’m out like a batter who has the misfortune of facing Joba, so anything else from BBB tonight is not me!

  1088. Rob NY December 1st, 2007 at 9:28 pm

    3.24 * yeah i vote for an edit button….. my point being Javy’s best year is what Santana critics are labeling an off year for him

  1089. err December 1st, 2007 at 9:32 pm

    Javier Vazquez was never an all-star prior to joining the Yankees (although he ended up making the all-star team once they acquired him). He was a guy who was pretty young that the Yankees thought would be pretty good. obviously that didn’t work out for them. But they werent adding him because he was some awesome all-star with a great MLB record, like Randy Johnson was.

    They were trying to get younger in the rotation by adding him since they had just lost Wells and Clemens and El Duque.

    Santana is completely different. He has won multiple CY YOungs and his stats say he is the best pitcher in baseball by far over the last 5 seasons.

    if the Yankees were giving up Hughes for a 29 year old pitcher with promise, like Vazquez, I;d be outraged. But they are giving up Hughes for a rare commodity – the best pitcher in baseball, and a guy who will in all likelihood be great for many more years.

  1090. VOIII December 1st, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    I am not going to debate this anymore if the trade happens you guys will be on this blog three or four years from now asking why the F(*^$ did we do that trade… Hughes will be carving up the American League, and Boston will still have Beckett, Dice K, Bucholz and Lester.
    Joba will be our closer and Santana, Wang, Kennedy and Horne (if he’s not traded) will not be better than Boston’s rotation.

    But all of this is really not the point. The point is that, the Yankees can probably get this guy by being patient and not throwing Hughes in the mix so fast.

  1091. Jason December 1st, 2007 at 9:40 pm

    I can understand why people are sad to see Hughes go, but for the life of me, I will never be able to understand the thinking that getting the best pitcher in baseball, in his prime, is a bad thing.

  1092. El Comaduce December 1st, 2007 at 10:16 pm

    Hughes will be carving up the American League, and Boston will still have Beckett, Dice K, Bucholz and Lester.
    Joba will be our closer and Santana, Wang, Kennedy and Horne (if he’s not traded) will not be better than Boston’s rotation.

    VOIII – while your at it can we also get some lotto numbers? Mega millions is up to about half of what he just signed A-Rod for…

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