Yankees pushing for Santana
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 01, 2007 
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The AP is now reporting that Phil Hughes is part of the offer for Johan Santana along with Melky Cabrera and a “mid-level prospect.”
In a new twist, the wire service says the offer could have an expiration date of a few days as the Yankees are prepared to go after Danny Haren. Now that most everybody believes the Red Sox aren’t serious, the Yankees are putting some pressure on the Twins to make this deal before it gets any more complicated.
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The Yankees tonight offered arbitration to Mariano Rivera, Alex Rodriguez, Andy Pettitte and Luis Vizcaino.
For Rivera and Rodriguez, it was a formality because their contracts are not yet official. They offered Pettitte just in case he pulls a Roger Clemens. The want the Viz back. The players have until Friday to accept or decline.
Doug Mientkiewicz was not offered arbitration. But unlike previous seasons, under the new CBA he could still sign with the Yankees. The Yankees also did not make an offer to Clemens.
Oooo. A clean slate.
Thanks for the bit of non-Santana related news, like a bresh of freath air.
I really hope that Haren news is a bluff, because I really don’t feel he’s a pitcher that makes a difference. But if it means keeping Hughes, I’d at least be happy.
Well.
You know what I mean.
At least they learned their lesson from Clemens that you should offer arbitration. Now the massive bidding war for Doug Mientkiewicz begins….
Twins may have been better off with Melky, OF prospect, and 2 really good pitching prospects outside the Big 3.
Billy Beane is shrewd, would he accept IPK in a deal?
why does everyone think the Sox aren’t serious? i’m not so sure. they’ve made a pretty strong offer.
Ah freath air, breathe in deep, I think that’s what congress renamed regular air right around the time they changed french fries to freedom fries.
1. If the Red Sox aren’t serious…why give up Phil?
2. Let the Twins think Cash will deal with the A’s. Put some pressure on them. Might lower the asking price for Santana. How would they like the two draft choices, instead?
Am I the only one who think they should just forget Johan, and go after Haren or Bedard. They could probably get it done with a Kennedy, Melky, Tabata deal (and maybe a throw-in type prospect). I think you offer that up to all three teams, and the first to bite, wins.
Mel – That deal would work for me. IF Boston has been exposed, then maybe we (i.e., Cash) can dial it down a notch and save Phil.
If Friday is the day to accept or decline arbitration, it should also indicate in the case of Andy Pettitte, whether he’s returning or retiring.
A couple question sofr everyone
A. Would you want Haren?
B. What do you feel would be a fair deal for Haren?
hmmm
I think the offer of players was serious. Not so sure the offer to Santana on an extension will be as serious as he might like.
If we could write it up like a storybook for Yankee fans, Twins would accept Red Sox offer, Sox would nickel and dime Santana, Santana would refuse to waive his NTC and the Twins have to come back to the Yankees. When they come back they find that Hughes, Kennedy and Melky are no longer on the table.
Unlike Santana Oakland is not desperate to trade Haren unless some team blows them off with a mind boglling offer. Also Haren is signed for very cheap for the A’s. Billy Beane is dangling Haren hoping that the loser in the Santana sweepstakes will become desperate and over pay for Haren.
Hey, whaddya know, Syracuse won a game!
A quick general question and please be honest. If you HAD to bet everything you own an either Santana or Hughes winning a Cy Young award sooner. Who would you bet on?
No more trades please – we’ve seen enough Big Name pitchers come to the Stadium and fail. Hughes and Melky are already Yankees and doing well – let’s not spoil the team.
…And apparently, suddenly Friday is the most interesting day of the year.
I think Haren is going to cost more in terms of prospects than Santana.
This makes little sense if the Red Sox aren’t serious why are we giving up Hughes then? The Yankees are practically bidding against themselves. They should ve just stuck with Kennedy,Melky+
The Socks are in the process of folding their tent. Theo and Gammons are pulling the pegs out of the ground.
They will stay with a pat hand and reinforce their thought that Schilling and Wakefield will take them to the promised land.
wow. anyone read gammons’ last post on his blog? some serious sour grapes about the yankees being big spenders.
That’s the problem with obsessing with Boston moves. You let it affect your decisions. Just make a plan, make an offer, and deal with the results.
Twins are in no way desperate…To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if they kept Santana…To me Hughes, Melky and a second-tier prospect isn’t enough for Santana…If you substituted Cano instead of Hughes I’d do it, but otherwise no…
“If Friday is the day to accept or decline arbitration, it should also indicate in the case of Andy Pettitte, whether he’s returning or retiring.”
why do you say that? he can decline and still be a yankee next year. i assume he will decline.
Why do you guys thing Sox are not serious abt getting Santana? Their offer was pretty good one and they got to keep both Buccholz and Ellsbury. If Yanks don’t include Hughes Sox will get Santana.
The deadline of Friday means nothing. Turning down arbitration means nothing to the player. If Andy doesnt except which he will not does not mean he is shutting it down or not.
Why would the player accept arbitration when he can call the Yankees and get his 16 million dollars per year rather than sit through an arbitration hearing. All it means is if the player does not accept that and in the case with Andy and The Viz if they sign with another team we get draft picks.
Why no arbitration for Clemens? If he goes to arbitration he`ll definitely get a much lower and maybe an actually okay deal. If he declines then you get a pick if he goes to the Astros
If the Twins keep Santana, he’s wearing pinstripes by November 2008. If he makes it all the way until July 2008 and is having a decent year, he’d be a fool not to hold out for free agency. If it’s only a matter of money, the Yankees will not be denied.
“A quick general question and please be honest. If you HAD to bet everything you own an either Santana or Hughes winning a Cy Young award sooner. Who would you bet on?”
santana.
but that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to make the trade.
Have we heard anything from Bobcat today?
I would not trade Hughes for Haren. Haren is a very good pitcher but I do not think good enough that I would give up Hughes for him. Santana is the only pitcher I would trade him for. Beane would not trade Haren for Kennedy..he would for Kennedy plus the whole farm. Remember he has no reason to trade him, he doesnt make any money at all.
Can somone cut and paste Gammons whining/ I dont have insider. Alreadt drop $160 a year on Extra Innings package to just see Yanks…
wife put foot down…
“Why no arbitration for Clemens? If he goes to arbitration he`ll definitely get a much lower and maybe an actually okay deal. ”
no he won’t. he’d probably get close to $20M in arbitration.
do you really want to try to win an arbitration case against arguably the greatest RH pitcher of all time?
arbitration doesn’t work how you think it works.
Joe from Long Island…
The Red Sox were NEVER serious about Santana…they just wanted to bump up the asking price on Santana to make the Yankees include Hughes in a deal.
I have had a bit of a baseball crush on Danny Haren for a couple of years now. He’s always the first non-Yankee I take on my fantasy team, the first one I trade to the Yankees in all the MLB 2k-whatever video games, etc. I lobbied for him to win the Cy Young this year till about Sept. when it became blatantly obvious he’d fallen out of the running. Needless to say, I’ve always wanted him on the Yankees.
That said, however, now that we actually have the chance to get him, I’m not too keen and would rather have Santana. For several reasons, only one of which actually has anything to do with Haren’s pitching:
1) Haren’s a righty. Not only is our farm already overflowing with talented RHPs, but the past few years have shown that we need a top of the line lefty on the staff and I wouldn’t trade Hughes for anything less. Which brings me to…
2) We WOULD have to trade Hughes for Haren…Hughes and then some. Mark my words, whoever does this deal with Billy Beane is going to end up getting dookied in the booty. Beane will pillage them. Santana will cost less (in prospects, which is more important than money) and he’s a better pitcher.
3) Although Haren is an EXCELLENT pitcher, he often falls off somewhat in the second half. That would not be ideal if we found ourselves in a situation of having to hold off Boston or chase them.
Sorry for the book but to me the whole Haren thing is like the boy that you have a crush on throughout all of high school, then he finally asks you to the prom and you have to say no because you already have a date! (A cuter date, if you want to work Santana into this whole analogy…)
I just hope he goes to the Dodgers instead of the Sox or Mets, cause I normally root for him unless him winning a game is bad for the Yanks due to matchup, and I’d like to still be able to do that!
“wow. anyone read gammons’ last post on his blog? some serious sour grapes about the yankees being big spenders.”
saw that. pretty ridiculous considering the Matsuzaka bid. and if they get santana, i’m sure he’ll say how fair it is to the 28 other teams.
Does anybody know what Billy Beane is reasonably looking for in return for Haren? I would have to imagine it would be Kennedy, (maybe) Tabata, and two prospects (b/c he knows Hughes won’t be dealt for a SP other than Johan).
I don’t think we can say definitively what the Sox were thinking, but it is obvious that the Yankees need Santana more than the Sox. They have young pitching and are coming off their 2nd championship in 4 years. The Yankees haven’t had a real ace since David Cone retired.
“anyone read gammons’ last post on his blog? some serious sour grapes about the yankees being big spenders.”
Jebus, Gammons is still crying about that? I guess he hasn’t taken a gander at his boys’ payroll projections lately!
I think the real reason they didn’t offer Clemens arbitration is because he is neither a type A or a type B free agent. There is no benefit for the Yankees.
I would like a Haren to replace Mussina. Horne, Tabata for Haren? Might take IPK
Although we can’t say what the Sox were thinking, if you read between the lines you can see what they were trying to do.
It’s a smart organization run by clever people. They have done things in the past in attempts to bait the Yankees (Manny/irrevocable waivers).
I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t do that now.
If they were serious about Santana, Buchholz and Ellsbury wouldn’t be ‘off the table’ from the start.
When Beane says I have to be “blown” away to trade Haren. To me blown away means Hughes… Kennedy will not get it done. Beane just wants to be invited to the party since he is jealous that the Twins are getting all of the attention. You invite Beane to the party and you get fleeced. He is the Boras of gm’s.
Who is going to play center field? I will miss Melky’s cannon and his spirit if this goes through. Not married to PhilFranchise, but I’ll still miss the kid b/c he was our future…. sigh…the Bronx DRAMA
the gammons blog was pathetic. sour grapes is exactly right, and the yankees haven’t even agreed to a deal for santana yet. if the red sox end up with santana, we can expect some serious spin from him, given how proud he sounded that the red sox wouldn’t give up their main guys.
a couple weeks ago, when cc won the cy young, he wrote a blog talking all about josh beckett, and how much better winning a ring is than winning a cy young award. even though it’s true, it’s really low to downplay such an achievement.
Contrary to belief, sanity may yet surface in coming days. Some clear minded people must have stepped back, grabbed a breath of fresh air and saw the errors of their ways.
I think Santana would be much better than Haren in NY, however, if we could get Haren and keep IPK, I might do it.
How does everyone know Ian’s middle name is Patrick?
Anyone want to be so kind as to explain to a very casual baseball fan what arbitration means?
Thanks in advance.
No one’s replacing Mussina.
And Boston’s not really serious because the Twins have zero interest in Crisp, and I think at this point Boston knows that, if they didn’t before. So their offer of Crisp et. al. means they’re not 100% committed to the Santana trade.
i got an iphone today, my wife rules
here is the article where gammons crys
Now you start thinking about what it’s going to be like when C.C. Sabathia is a free agent at the end of next season, or when Brad Penny and Jake Peavy hit the market the following year.
Bud Selig tried to level the playing fields with revenue sharing, and it did work — for a while. But there were only four or five teams this offseason that could make a play for Johan Santana or Alex Rodriguez or Miguel Cabrera, or Torii Hunter, for that matter. The situation will be the same when Sabathia is on the market next November, and it won’t matter how much C.C. cares for Mark Shapiro and the Indians organization. The steep price will be one the Indians can’t afford in their market — any more than the rate Hunter set for center fielders and Santana will set for pitchers — and won’t fit the budgets of most teams.
It doesn’t matter how much luxury tax the Yankees pay or how much Steinbrenner money goes to Kansas City, Minnesota or Tampa Bay. Hank Steinbrenner is going to use his AmEx to win. He gets a year’s grace from some of the taxation because of the new stadium that opens in 2009, but if you’re out there in a small market, how scary is this winter, with the realization that the Yankees and Mets are both about to open new revenue-cow ballparks?
Don’t even think about signing Mark Teixeira, Braves fans. Don’t even dream about how much Peavy loves San Diego, Padres fans. The Marlins are smart, because they know they aren’t going to have a stadium in time to keep Cabrera, so they have to hope construction is under way when it comes time for Hanley Ramirez to get paid as one of the best players in the sport.
Once the Red Sox tell the Twins they’re not getting Jacoby Ellsbury or Clay Buchholz, and if the Yankees’ deal for Santana is completed, think about what Steinbrenner & Co. will have done since being exiled from the playoffs by the Indians:
• Given the highest-paid player in the history of the sport a pay raise which amounts to 10 years and between $305 million and $314 million. That, incidentally, is the first $20 million contract signed since winter 2000, when A-Rod, Manny Ramirez, Mike Hampton et al struck it rich and almost forced a strike in 2002.
• Made Santana the first $20 million pitcher and the second player to get a $20 million-plus average annual value (AAV) deal since 2000. When the Yankees “compromise” to something from $23 million to $25 million for six or seven years, they will have given the union another level with which to work their way back to getting the players nearly two-thirds of the growing revenues.
• Made Mariano Rivera the highest-paid reliever ever, in terms of AAV.
• Made Jorge Posada the highest-paid catcher in history, in terms of AAV.
• Traded one of the two or three best starting pitching prospects in the sport in Phil Hughes.
• Traded Melky Cabrera, an energetic 23-year-old center fielder who is filled with upside and has perhaps the best throwing arm of any middle outfielder in the game. Now they have Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon and Bobby Abreu for an outfield. Santana’s groundball-to-flyball ratio last season was 0.92-to-1, although he’s so good that he may not miss Hunter as much as one would think, even with the space of Yankee Stadum.
The Yankees, Mets and Red Sox are not allowed to do what Bill Smith is doing with the Twins. Smith is retooling the personnel and the payroll so that when the Twins get into their new ballpark in 2010, Hughes will essentially be Santana; Delmon Young will have blossomed into a 40-homer hitter; and some of the other young players they’ve acquired will be established. With that in mind, the team may struggle for a season or two, but it will not be like the 11-year playoff drought it experienced after winning the World Series in 1991.
If Hank Steinbrenner hadn’t insisted on dealing Hughes and keeping Rodriguez, and the Yankees don’t make the playoffs in 2008, what price will other teams have to pay? If the Mets don’t make the playoffs next year, imagine the howls. If the Red Sox are five games behind the Yankees on May 1, one will be able to hear the anger of misanthropic mouths that will have forgotten the Sox have won two world championships in four years and have had to raise ticket prices to record levels to do so.
The price of doing business in the Bronx means having the highest-paid player, pitcher, reliever and catcher and a couple of very talented young players — a price only two or three other teams can even think about paying, even before the new Yankee Stadium opens. If you’re in Toronto or Tampa, think about that … and then apply for a green card in the National League Central.
a petition to keep Phil Hughes in New york has been started by the fans of the Yankees.
Moron: it’s really confusing! I just tried to type it out and explain it, and I don’t think I can….so I’d appreciate an explanation too.
Mostly I don’t think I understand what would happen if the Yankees offered arbitration to Clemens or Pettitte and they chose to retire. I think that’s the part I don’t get.
a Petition to keep Phil Hughes in New York has been started by the fans of the Yankees.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com.....hil-hughes
The Yanks would need to give up Hughes, Kennedy, Tabata, Melky for Haren. Really, no exaggeration. Beane is not in the same position with him that the Twinkies are with Johan. He has his guy locked up at below current market. Why trade him unless you can significantly improve your position.
Although Santana is great and I will be happy to see him in pinstripes, I agree with many here and would prefer it if we traded someone other than Hughes to get him.
Captain’s Corner:
“Beane just wants to be invited to the party since he is jealous that the Twins are getting all of the attention. You invite Beane to the party and you get fleeced.”
Precisely. Couldn’t have said it any better myself. It may kill me to give up Hughes for Santana but at least it is fair. Any trade with Beane would not be fair, and needless to say he’d be the one laughing a few years down the line, like he is with Mulder.
Sorry for the book but to me the whole Haren thing is like the boy that you have a crush on throughout all of high school, then he finally asks you to the prom and you have to say no because you already have a date! (A cuter date, if you want to work Santana into this whole analogy…)
BBB -
I so totally get that!! (Similar situation actually happened to me!)
But, yes, I agree. Haren will end up costing more in players than Santana, and I understand he’s not a lefty, right?
if you go to http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/ and look at the sidebar of the page it says the boston tea party has improved their offer with thief/pitcher clay bucholz
“It’s a smart organization run by clever people. They have done things in the past in attempts to bait the Yankees (Manny/irrevocable waivers).”
right, except if the yankees took the bait and claimed manny, it would have ultimately been a good deal for the yankees.
the sox were extremely lucky the yankees didn’t claim manny.
i thought peter gammons was a professional but to bash the yankees who practically saved baseball in the late 90s is unfair. behind the yankees payroll is who else, his red sox. stop whining old man
Why not get both?
Hughes, Melky, Gonzalez for Santana.
Kennedy, Igawa, Jackson for Haren.
“Anyone want to be so kind as to explain to a very casual baseball fan what arbitration means?”
not understanding the arbitration process hardly makes you a moron, it’s fairly confusing.
here is an article:
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/faq.jsp
Yep…Gammons being Gammons. He never saw a bowl of chowdah he didn’t like with his gin & tonic unless it was Manhattan chowder.
In very recent years however, he’s been brave and has now come out of the closet. His love of Boston is now well documented nationwide and since the signing of Matsuzaka, they may know it in Japan as well.
Good god…how can anyone still take Gammons’ analysis and/or commentary seriously when he comes out with absolute drivel like that?! LOLOL @ “Hank’s going to use his AmEx” – at least he is honest enough not to simeltaneously cry poor while he is whipping out that AmEx, UNLIKE SOME TEAMS, right Gammons?
The one where he cries about CC winning the Cy Young sounds equally as pathetic, but also downright unethical to disparage a pitcher whose 2007 accomplishments have really been a long time coming. Is he really that hard up for something to write about? Or just sick of crying how the Yankees have a big payroll and how Beckett’s blisters are due to defective baseballs? Jebus, what a pansy.
ok, really unrelated, but I know some of you are technologically smart people. how bad is it if you put your USB key in the washing machine?
I officially hate Peter Gammons. Guys everybody has to sign that petition. We can make a difference! (probably not, but it’s really cool. Just go to the link given earlier in this thread and you can do it online).
BBB/Doreen: Heh.
I was not that person.
Actually, if you want to know what person I was, watch She’s All That. Same thing happened to me, only it was Homecoming instead of Prom.
Our school stopped the Homecoming Court the next year…I wonder if it was a coincidence…
I’ll take a shot at the basics of arbitration for you:
If a team offers a player arbitration. The player has a week to accept or decline it. If they accept it, they can negotiate with the player up until the time of a hearing which I think is some time in January. If no deal is reached by the time of the hearing, each side makes an offer to the arbitrator who has to pick one of the deals that they think is fair. The arbitrator can’t decide on their own figure, just the one submitted by the player or the team. The arbitors ruling is final and the player returns to the team for 1 year and then become a free agent again.
If they decline it and sign with another team and they are Type A or B, the team they came from gets draft picks from the team they go to.
I think the twist that comes in this year is that players who decline arbitration are now allowed to go back to the teams they declined it from. The rule used to be that they could not negoitiate with that team until May.
If a player retires, I think everyone just goes there seperate ways and no one gets any compensation.
Yeah, the words non-biased and objective don’t fit into Gammons work ethic. He is a total homer… Its always Sox, Sox, Sox… He pulled this same crap when the Yanks swooped in and pulled off the A-Rod deal.
Alright, from what I gather, a lot of guys at ESPN used to write as beat writers for major newspapers, and then were swayed away to ESPN. For example, Olney worked for the Baltimore Sun and NY Times before publishing a book and going to ESPN, the mighty empire. Gammons covered the Sox for the Globe for years, worked for SI, and now is at ESPN.
Ken Rosenthal also worked for the Sun, before going to Foxsports.com as their senior writer.
The difference is, I think a lot of the guys on the main stream (Fox and ESPN) should be more objective. Its obvious Gammons is in love with the Sox, and he uses a national stage to dialogue it. You don’t see Olney doing that with the Yankees and/or Rosenthal doing it for whomever he ‘secretly’ roots for. Most sports journalists don’t even have a favorite team, from what I understand.
Now the beat guys, the guys in the trenches following the team from Jan 1 thru Dec 31 like our friend Pete here, and (to a lesser extent) guys and gals like Kepner, Feinsand, O’Brien, King, and for the Sox, Massarotti, Ryan, Shaughnessy, MacMullen, Cafardo, etc., I expect a little bias from them towards the teams they cover. They live with them for nine months a year and then spend three months in the ‘offseason’ dissecting trades and free agent acquisiions.
But the complete non-objectivity that Gammons shows is not something from the guys on the National stage, on the major networks, that I want to see. I think it is over the top, IMHO.
The only question is, when will ESPN gobble Pete up with some sick offer to work alongside Erin ‘smokin’ Andrews covering games, and seeing that jolly face on Baseball Tonight? Abrahams has already revolutionized the sports blog with this site.
Again, IMHO…
Andrea,
if you let it air dry overnight it should be fine, hope there wasn’t anything irreplaceable on there.
Cashmoney is desperate. It’s win now or he’s gone.
thanks pat!
Thanks Mark–
Yeah, the words non-biased and objective don’t fit into Gammons work ethic. He is a total homer…
Alright, from what I gather, a lot of guys at ESPN used to write as beat writers for major newspapers, and then were swayed away to ESPN. For example, Olney worked for the Baltimore Sun and NY Times before publishing a book and going to ESPN, the mighty empire. Gammons covered the Sox for the Globe for years, worked for SI, and now is at ESPN.
Ken Rosenthal also worked for the Sun, before going to Foxsports.com as their senior writer.
The difference is, I think a lot of the guys on the main stream (Fox and ESPN) should be more objective. Its obvious Gammons is in love with the Sox, and he uses a national stage to dialogue it. You don’t see Olney doing that with the Yankees and/or Rosenthal doing it for whomever he ‘secretly’ roots for. Most sports journalists don’t even have a favorite team, from what I understand.
Now the beat guys, the guys in the trenches following the team from Jan 1 thru Dec 31 like our friend Pete here, and (to a lesser extent) guys and gals like Kepner, Feinsand, O’Brien, King, and for the Sox, Massarotti, Ryan, Shaughnessy, MacMullen, Cafardo, etc., I expect a little bias from them towards the teams they cover. They live with them for nine months a year and then spend three months in the ‘offseason’ dissecting trades and free agent acquisiions.
But the complete non-objectivity that Gammons shows is not something from the guys on the National stage, on the major networks, that I want to see. I think it is over the top, IMHO.
Again, IMHO…
Call me a softie, but I don’t think Gammons is bashing the Yankees. He is just talking about the economic realities in the sport today. Selig thought the revenue sharing and luxury tax would slow down the top spenders and the small market teams would grow payrolls. I guess he didn’t anticipate that players salaries would also go up eventually.
I mean it’s simple economics, the Royals spend $11M on Gil Meche, Giants $18M on Zito, if Santana isn’t worth $22M then how would he value one of the top left-handed pitchers in the game in his prime?
Still small market teams will never offer the kind of contracts to the amount of players that the big market teams will. He fails to mention that the best small market teams, the Twins and A’s, get optimal value out of the players they have by just the type of trade we can’t stop talking about. So don’t shed too many tears for the Twins for “only” getting Hughes, Melky, Jackson and Gonzalez.
I guess Gammons forgot when it was his team pulling out the credit card for the “great” Lugo and Drew, and don’t forget matsuzaka.
Also if boston would have gotten arod a few years ago they would be giving him this contract right now, and he would be saying its a great deal, and it will be magical to see arod break the hr record in “historic” fenway park.
I would hope Peter’s point about the wire service reporting a time-element might be in effect on the Yank’s offer proves true.
The twins may try to ride this out and shop the offer through the winter meetings,, never know if LAD or LAA suddenly get the urge to strike, while everyone is paying attention to the Yankees and Sox. The Yankees would suddenly have to match Broxton and Kershaw or Kendrick and Jeff Weaver type move.
The key is for the Yankees to have a clearly defined walk-away point, and not get Santana at any costs. Otherwise they will hurt themselves over the long term.
Who actually won the presidency for the Red Sox Nation?
Yankesrule57: nope. Nothing that can’t be replaced/redone for now. It’s all backed up elsewhere. It’s basically because I don’t have a floppy drive (does anyone anymore?) and I don’t feel like burning a CD every time I want to bring a document or something somewhere. And I JUST got it yesterday. And I already washed it. I’m stupid.
Okay -
Why is no one reacting to the rumor that the Red Sox have decided to include Bucholz (spelling?) in their offer?
I also just had a thought to rebuff all those saying that Boston will not offer Santana what he wants and is only in this to hurt the Yankees. Because if Santana does not accept Boston’s deal for him, he then becomes available to the Yankees, and possibly without having to include Hughes, if Minnesota still decides to go through with a trade at all. And if Minnesota decides to keep Santana and just take the 2 draft picks, the Yankees will be in full free-agent press at the end of next season. So, this is just a long-winded way of saying, the Red Sox are serious.
Ah now bucholz is in the deal…crapppppppppppppppppppppppp
lord please bless the Yankees and have Johan go to the Mets. Please Omar Minya trade Jose Reyes. Please.
I’m a Sox fan but I have to admit that lately I am a little embarassed by Gammons pro Red Sox articles especially since he is supposed to be unbiased.
pat – thanks for giving me the gist of things
Doreen: Dunno about the rest, but I’m kind of just rumoured-out. I’d like some actual fact.
Andrea,
I have been using PC’s for over twenty years and believe me I’ve done far dumber things than what you did. Don’t beat yourself up, they are really inexpensive to replace. I bought a 4Gig key on Black Friday for $25!
Does anyone really think, first that the Buckholz offer is for sure, or just a rumour??
Second,, does anyone think for a moment that the Sox just suddenly now decided to include him?
Yankees need to hold their ground.
If the Sox had gotten Johan, Gammons would have called it “the best trade since Jay Buehner…”
Now back to ESPN, I say we start a pool as to when they wise up in Bristol and put together a package to whisk Pete away to the mighty four-letter empire, to work baseball games alongside Erin ‘smokin’ Andrews…
I say Pete’s debating Kruk on Baseball Tonight in a year…
Gammons is right…look at what Hankee has done in his brief tenure as Yankee decision maker.
Looks a lot like the resume of dear old Daddy Yankee.
Yanksrule57 -
Where????? did you get 4G for $25??? I just paid $20 for 2G at Best Buy. There is such a difference in cost between brands, is there really a difference?
Si.com is reporting that the Yanks are close toa deal. But Boston is still involved and the Twins want the 3rd player to be Jackson. If I was the Yanks I would do it.
wow typing petition is hard after typing pettitte many times the past few weeks. there should be a petition to keep cashman too, he has a plan for these yankees, and it could be worse. our gm could be omar minaya
Mel, Jerry Remy ended up being president.
yankee21,
Remember the words of the immortal bobcat, “The Red Sox are never going to give up a big boy”. No Ellsbury or Bucholtz.
Where is this Buchholz report being seen or published?
yanksrule57: I thought about going for a 4gb, but I didn’t want to brave the Black Friday crowds. I just got a nice little 2gb for about $15. I like it because it’s a slide out (does that make sense?) so it doesn’t have a cap. I’d lose the cap.
I’ve done some stupid stuff too, I’m just mad at myself because I FINALLY got around to buying one. I JUST got it yesterday, and sure it enough, today it went in the washer.
I’ll let it dry out and I’ll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks though. I would have been too afraid to put it in my computer without at least some vote of confidence. It’s funny who we turn to though! Who do I ask? The Yankees blog!
So um…Johan Santana? yeah….
If I’m the Yankees- I don’t include Jackson, unless the Twins take Kennedy IPO Hughes.
Sorry, they can’t get Jackson and Hughes.
Rebecca -
Ha! I hear ya! But it seems I am helpless lately – hopelessly helpless — in just wanting to know the progress of this. It’s like soap opera. And the sad thing is, no matter what happens, I’m going to be happy and sad. So, I guess, it doesn’t ultimately make a difference, does it? Except if the Sox end up with Santana. Banish the thought!
“Who actually won the presidency for the Red Sox Nation?”
Willie Horton
Doreen,
It was a special at Radio Shack. It works really well too. I just transferred my entire itunes collection to my new laptop with it. They also had a great deal on GPS systems I bought a Magellan 3100 for $120. I just saw the same system at the Navy Exchange (PX for you Army folks) for $200!
BTW, most of these memory sticks work the same, memory is memory.
Shamus…look at the In Joba We Trust posting at 9:32 for the link to the Bucholtz rumor.
The twins want a lot for Santana,, as they should. Doesn’t mean they get it.
And it doesn’t mean the Yankees have to change their composition of the different packages as Bobcat alluded to.
Interesting to see how this plays out.
I would include Jackson not Horne.
Shamus,
I haven’t read anywhere legit that they would be adding Buchholz.
I would not include Jackson or Horne, Jackson is our center fielder in 2 years, they can have Jackson and Horne but not Melky.
Couple of things Gammons was just taling about the economcs of modern day baseball and in fact he is correct remember when the Yankees thrived the most it was when baseball was in its economic heyday and they could spend the money. However, part of the problem is that teams like KC need to overpay to get people to go there thus the contract they gave Gil Meche last year and that was a horrible contract and then allowed other mediocre pitchers to ask for that kind of money. The reason Santana can ask for the kind of money he will get is the overpriced contract that the Giants payed for Zito. Remember it only takes one guy to give the bad money and that they sets the market for everyone else.
On the rumour about Bucholx, it amazes me in the internet world something is writen on some web site and then it is taken as gospel somewhere else. This is how internet rumours get going that have no vailidity whatsoever.
If boston get Santana,they will be the most competitive
team.
I can’t imagine that we may be faced with the best 1-2 punch
in Boston.
If Bobcat’s outline of how this would go down is right, it’s time for the Yankees to put a deadline on the deal and then Hank will speak.
Come on Hank, I’m all ears. Put us out of our misery.
Thanks, YanksRule57. I have a ton of digital photos that I want to save without taking up any physical space (fireproof box).
The Twins want Hughes and Jackson,, then fine NYY counter with Kennedy IPO Hughes. The Twins can then have AJAX oh and one other thing,, they also have 24 hours to make a decision.
Hughes, Melky and B-level
or
Kennedy, Melky and Jackson; their choice.
The Yankees can’t be desperate.
Then they can have AJAX, and the timeline is 36 hours also.
what is IPO???
my name
or maybe “in place of”
Adding Jackson to this trade is unacceptable.
The only thing that made losing hughes even remotely palatable was that it seemed that the third player would not be Jackson, Tabata, Kennedy or Horne.
They really need to make their offer with hughes, melky and whoever else and that’s it.
The twins seems to keep escalating what they are asking for.
They yankees cannot lose both their viable young future centerfielders.
Centerfield is a difficult position to fill. Jackson has outstanding range and his bat is coming on.
They cannot lose Hughes and Jackson in one deal.
Thanks, Ray. Only you would know, but I was wondering if Gammons article was just him stumping for votes. Haha Gammons and stump in the same sentence.
The Yankees need to freakin walk
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
ouch?
I wonder if non-Yankee fans are thinking that the price is getting too high for Santana.
I’m a day late it looks like.
and a dollar short…
Maybe we can trade Hughes, Melky, and a brand spankin new high quality bottled-water themed Pogo Stick.
Andrea,
Matt thinks that’s a paltry offer for Tans.
ipo: hey, where can I get in on one of those pogo sticks?
Doreen,
An option you might consider is now they have these very inexpensive ($75-$100) external USB hard drives. I think the one I bought is 80 Gig. You plug it in and tell it what files to copy and away it goes. I backed up all my digital photos and music files on it. Go to Circuit City or Best Buy they have many choices.
mel: oh, I forgot. We should just trade the SWB Yankees for Tans. Tans is worth it, right?
lol. Tans.
CB;
We really have no way of knowing at this point but I highly doubt the ’3rd guy’ would be anything more than a B level guy with Hughes in the deal.
I sure hope not,, that speaks of desperation, and that is a great way to get fleeced…
The Yankees need to stand their ground,, and not move off their walk away point, regardless of the crap being leaked or speculated on.
IPO = in place of
I don’t know! I’ve been looking all over for a long time. But I figure the Yankees are loaded; they must have one somewhere that they can toss in!
How would the twins use the pogo stick??
well if you find one, let me know. I sure do love me some pogo sticks!
The “Tans” thing has annoyed me the last few days. Changing his nickname needs to be written into any deal reached.
yankee21: you’re looking at this all wrong. How wouldn’t the twins use a pogo stick.
Don’t we have a pogo stick? Ramirez?
pat: I know I’m using “Tans” in a mocking manner. I’m pretty sure mel is as well.
“you’re looking at this all wrong. How wouldn’t the twins use a pogo stick.”
LOL!
Andrea
I thought it was only annoying to me but I guess not.
How about S-tan? But we’ll pronounce it “Stan”
yankee21,
We really can’t know. This may be more nonesense leaked by minnesota.
But its clear the deal is at its make or break stage. They cannot trade that much talent for what amounts to a one year of santana and the opportunity to sign him to a $150 million dollar contract.
Centerfield is too difficult to fill. With melky gone Jackson is critical. They can ride out a couple of seasons of damon / gardner.
Horne is also unnaceptable. They cannot trade that much pitching talent. If hughes goes they will need horne this year either in the bull pen like they used joba or in relief.
Should the twins blow this and not take a package with Hughes they will regret this terribly for the next 15 years.
Hughes/ melky/ clipplard or marquez, etc or good bye.
I was on the fence on this deal – I do not want to trade hughes but I understand the impact that santana will have.
No more is acceptable.
mlbtraderumors.com has the twins asking for alberto gonzalez or alan horne. i would surrender gonzalez, hughes and melky. this is the BEST pitcher in baseball we are trying to sign
An update/status report:
1) Pete, thanks for the offer to stay on blog. We will communicate soon; we’ll see where it goes.
2) This post is mainly a reminder of the process that has ocurred and will continue to occur:
a) The public posturing
b) Hank involved
c) Hughes in the deal
d) Tweaking, or ratcheting up of the pieces
e) Twins playing the Red Sox against the Yankees and back and forth
f) You read what you are supposed to read
g) Think like a GM – it’s business, not personal
3) My opinion: Inasmuch as the stated Yankee goal is to win the World Series, they HAVE to somehow do this trade. Santana gives them a chance. Right now, they are a worse team than they were in October. They need to add SP. While the farm system has progressed nicely, none of them are Santana. Could some become him? Maybe. But Santana IS Santana. You do what you need to do to get him. Hughes, Melky, Jackson, who cares? The Yankees have one of the deepest farm systems in baseball. Remember, they are not giving up their BEST prospect, either. Other teams are being asked for theirs by the Twins. There are plenty more where Hughes came from, especially RHP. Get Santana if you want to be able to match up against the Indians, Tigers, Angels and Red Sox. Right now, if the Yankees had to match up in a winner-take-all, one game playoff, who would they give the ball to? Exactly. They need to do this trade. Is it painful? Yes, but if it isn’t, it’s probably not worth doing. Say what you will, if the Yankees are able to obtain Santana, they will be a contender. If not, not.
I’m voting Jo-Jo for Santana’s nickname…
pat: it’s annoying if someone calls him “Tans” in a serious manner. I was calling him “Tans” to point out that it was a ridiculous thing to call him.
Until a couple days ago, I had no idea anyone even called him that. I wonder if he even knows anyone calls him that.
Bobcat,
Have the Sox upped their offer?
Welcome Back Bobcat!
I do not believe the Red Sox would be willing to pay Santana $25 million (or even $20 mil) over 5 to 6 years.
If we change his nickname to Melky, it would keep alot of T-Shirts from turning into dust rags. Besides, “Got Tans” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Good to have you back Bobcat. Thanks for the update and opinion.
I am all for Gonzalez being the third guy.
rodg12: lol. Jo-Jo has my vote!
Santana is the best pitcher in baseball!! They have already included Hughes, are you really going to let this trade die because of Jackson?? I mean really Hughes is in the deal and people are worried about an outfielder?? They need an ace!! If Jackson will make it a deal then do it!! If they then come back and ask for more then forget it.
Bobcat – have you seen anything cross your desk where the Yanks are looking to deal for a CF when/if they get Santana?
Is Santana really that good?
How about his nickname be Phil Hughes? Since thats what will chanted when he steps on the mound
i’ve been a huge proponent of doing what it takes to get santana but, y’know what, if the twins love bucholz that much, then let them get him.
even i believe that at some point, cashman’s got to put his foot down. if he agrees to including horne in the deal, the twins will come back with, “well, the red sox have offered bucholz, so now horne isn’t enough. it’s got to be hughes, cabrera and jackson or no deal.”
you can’t blame the twins for trying to get maximum value for santana but this is getting absurd. if the twins prefer a red sox package including bucholz to hughes, cabrera and a b-level prospect, then that’s that. if the red sox win the pennant for the next five years, then so be it.
How about “Johana Santana”. We can play Achey Breaky Heart when he comes to pitch.
His nickname should be Tito.
Bobcat,
Good to have you back. As always I enjoy your posts. But I have to disagree.
Yes the yankees aren’t technically giving up their “best” prospect but that is only because their best prospect happens to be Joba.
In any other team except for the Dodgers or perhaps the sox Hughes would definitely be the top prospect. That the yankees happen to have joba is another matter.
The dodgers refused to give up kershaw. The sox refused buchholz.
Putting hughes in this changes the dynamic. If boston isn’t going to throw in buchholz the twins are not going to get a better player than hughes.
They cannot give up jackson or horne. That much talent is not worth one year of santana and $150. To put jackson or horne in that deal would not just be marginally better than the sox offer but much, much better.
Thanks Bobcat, but like the above question, whats the word on the Sox Bucholz?
hahaha johanna santana
If Yanks have to part with Jackson or Horne then I will give them both ONLY if Nathan is added to the deal.
Bobcat -
Thanks for the info
I really don’t agree with the drumbeat of “you must make this deal”
The Yankees don’t
All they need to do is to say one of two things:
– we’ll explore other trade avenues
– we’ll go into 2008 with the kids, take a shot with it, and go into 2009 well-positioned (salary-wise and otherwise) for the future
This refusal to step back a little in order to move forward is idiotic and self-destructive, in my opinion
Look, the Sox aren’t stupid. They know the Yankees are desperate, but this is an opportunity for them too. If you’re the Sox, how can you pass up a chance to have a 1-2 punch of Beckett and Santana, especially if all it costs are Lester (who has one less no-hitter than the theif), a CF you want to get rid of anyway, and some prospects? You’d absolutely have to offer that up.
Don’t tell me the Sox don’t have money.
I would be surprised though if they included Bucholtz in the deal as some are reporting.
I don’t agree with giving up Jackson. We can’t keep giving in to the Twins demands. What if they asked for Joba instead of Jackson? “Are we going to let this trade die because of Joba?”
Of course we do. We need to understand, that in negotiations, you ask for a lot, but are content with settling somewhere in the middle. Hopefully that middle ground is adding Marquez + Clippard.
hahaha johanna
Little Chip – some numbers from Jayson Stark’s blog on ESPN Insider yesterday….
It seems like a ridiculous question: How great is Johan Santana?
But as the Yankees and Red Sox spend every waking moment attempting to outduel each other for the right to pay this man 150-160 million dollars, we thought we’d ask it anyway:
How great, how dominating, is Santana?
So we took a look at his totally insane numbers. Let’s start with this:
• Santana has led the American League in fewest baserunners allowed per nine innings for four straight seasons. So who else, you ask, has done that?
How about nobody?
Lefty Grove led the AL in that category for three straight years, from 1930 to ’32. But that’s as close as anyone gets in that league.
In the National League, only two pitchers ever did it four years in a row — Carl Hubbell (1931-34) and Sandy Koufax (1962-65). And that’s the whole list.
Pretty good group. In the past 70 years, it’s Santana and Koufax. Period.
• But in those same four seasons, Santana also has finished first or second in the league in strikeouts. (And it easily could have been four first-place finishes in a row, if rain hadn’t forced him to exit early in his final start this year.)
And that’s where Santana separates himself from Koufax and Hubbell.
Koufax slipped to fourth in strikeouts in 1964. Hubbell tumbled to sixth in whiffs in 1934.
So Santana is the only pitcher in history to run off a four-year stretch combining that kind of strikeout domination with allowing so few baserunners to run around.
What about Pedro Martinez? Just missed. He was first or second in strikeouts every year from 1997 to 2000, but he fell to third in baserunners per nine innings in 1998. No other active pitcher is even in the discussion.
• Over these past four years, Santana has averaged more than a strikeout an inning, pitched at least 219 innings in every season and piled up at least 4.5 whiffs for every walk in each of those years. Let’s put that in perspective.
The only other pitcher in history to do that four straight seasons was Randy Johnson (1999-2002).
Just one other pitcher in the history of baseball has done that more than one year in a row even — Curt Schilling (two).
In fact, no American League pitcher has ever had more than one season like that in a row. Not Nolan Ryan. Not Roger Clemens. Not Pedro. Nobody. Amazing.
• Now here’s the final thing that astounds us about Santana: He has better numbers as a starter than a lot of closers — even great closers — have pitching one inning at a time.
So is he worth the blood, the sweat, the lost sleep, the money and the kind of players it’s going to take to pry him away from the Twins? If you don’t think he is, reread those numbers and get back to us.
kasey,
I completely agree with you on this issue. With hughes in that’s it.
No more high ceiling prospects. Let the twins get a better deal.
Unless they can get buchholz or kershaw they aren’t going to get it.
Thanks Bobcat
I think what Bobcat is saying is that, since the Yankees always say they expect to win the world series, if they expect to accomplish this goal in 2008 they have to do this deal. The farm is pretty loaded anyway but they can try to restock as needed.
Bobcat,
Hughes is their best prospect if the is still considered one. Jackson is in their top 4 or 5. They shouldn’t have capitulated on Hughes and and they shouldn’t make it worse by capitulating on Jackson. The “who cares” attitude promotes the sort of inattention to details that has totally screwed the Yankees over a few times in their history. The details matter. Otherwise, regardless of how rich they are and how great their farm is, they will just make other teams greater at their own expense. This is a competition and it matters who you keep and who you trade to other competitors. I know making deals is a thrill, but making stupid ones, where the Yanks don’t take advantage of their wealth and the breadth rather than the crowned jewels of their system, will weaken them in the longrun.
If the Yanks trade Melky and Jackson, that means they are out their current and future CF. That would probably force them to overpay Rowand. It really doesn’t end when you’re as stupid and shortsighted as Hank has been in the last 24 hours and you seem to be advocating he remain in the next 24.
Bobcat-
You said all this already. We only want new info
Bobcat; as always thanks for your points.
I understand the pain aspect clearly,, but doesn’t losing Hughes qualify as pain enough?
If the Twins want AJAX,, who else in the Twins org might the Yankees ask to be’thrown in’ to match the concession?
why are we calling Bucholz a theif?
Thanks rodg12
Save Phil
Save Joba
Save IPK
Save The Future!!!!!!!!
If they want Hughes so bad then they get him
No more after that, tell them to shove it
How can anyone predict how well or poorly the young arms are going to do?
I can see the Yankees having to give up Hughes and Melky in this trade, why does it keep needing to be made better when the RS offer hasn’t changed at all?
Santana would be great to have in Pinstripes, but at what cost? Contender only because of one single pitcher? Honestly, if the Yankees are in that bad a shape that one player who comes in every 5 games, then they are toast anyway. Think about that. Without Santana they are nothing, yet Santana might only bring in 5 additional wins over the season.
I think its reaching absurd levels to talk about a one game play off.
Sorry, but if Santana is a piece of the puzzle to make them a stronger contender, I can buy it somewhat, to say they aren’t a contender without Santana though… wow, just wow.
It’s walk time, IMO.
Honestly, if I were the Yankees at this point, I would pull Hughes off of the table and say “We gave you a chance with Hughes and you didn’t take it. We’re now back to Kennedy, Cabrera, and a prospect. Take it or leave it.”
Some people will probably think I’m nuts for saying that, but this is just getting out of hand. Giving up Hughes for Santana is one thing – I know you have to give up talent to get talent. But if Minnesota and Boston are going to play this game where they just keep seeing how deep the Yankees will dig, you have to take the chance at walking away. Boston has offered the same core of players to Milwaukee for Sheets and Hardy; I really don’t think they are as serious about Santana as these reports are leading us to believe. It’s a risk to play hardball and reduce your offer, but I would not increase it for anything. If Boston is genuine in their interest and they give up Buchholz, Lester, and more for Johan, they’ll be the fools.
That was the update from the exalted insider Bobcat? That the Yankees have to make the deal? Ok I agree, but not sure that qualifies me as an baseball insider. Give us something good Bobcat.
Scooter:
I agree whole heartedly. I for one, don’t mind missing the playoffs for a couple years to get better in the long run. It’s been a long time since a Yankee fan can proud of a team made up of a majority of homegrown talent. It’s not always the result at the end of the season, but the journey. Some of us fans, have just gotten a little spoiled with the dynasty of the late 90′s.
I havent heard anyone comment on this. Don’t you think that the Sox will have to redo Beckett’s deal if they sign Santana for $23 per? Add in the luzury tax (not sure of the Sox %) and Johana costs a lot more than $23 per.
P.S. = Shane, keep dreamin’ man. I would LOVE that deal, but it’s not gonna happen.
rodg12,
would you then include horne or jackson in this deal?
I have never knocked santana. I read the stark article.
Santana is great. There is no knock on him.
But to give up hughes and another high ceiling player when the sox have not even put in buchholz is unacceptable.
You have to take into consideration the discount rate for future performance but at some point you cross the line where loss of talent is not made up for by one great pitcher.
27 laptops stolen by Buccholz from his high school. He was caught. Now he’s cheating his way above Hughes in prospect ranking, which to me is ludicrous. Hughes and Buccholz, in the very least by comparing their moxy, are not even close. So yes, Kershaw and Buccholz are being withheld. So should Phil. We obviously don’t know everything and/or we are being played. Kershaw is hard to deny, but Buccholz? Please.
o/t Anyone watching the pitt/wv game. I think pitt should of went for it there on 4th and 1 at the 1. He could of put the game away. Now i’m sure wv will come down and score a td. If wv and missouri both lose tonight the bcs is just a mess. Ohio st is clearly going to go if one of them loses, but can georgia the 4th ranked team really go especially since they didn’t even play in there conference title game.
I don’t pull the trade offer,, instead I’ll counter and ask for Glen Perkins or Neshek,, the Twins will laugh and then I will laugh and the Twins will get the message, its walk time if they don’t move swiftly,, the clock is ticking.
bphill,
cause he stole a lot of laptops once.
I’d be more inclined to include Jackson rather than Horne. I really see good signs in Jackson…but we gotta be honest with ourselves that he’s really just had one great 2nd half and a good Hawaiian league. Now, with toolsy guys like him, sometimes it just “clicks” and it’s full go from there, but I’d like to see more of a sample size from him before putting him in “top prospect” status. So, in summation, if it was the absolute “Jackson in and you get Santana”, I probably do it, but I’d really like to get Santana without putting him in the deal.
How many games would Santana win? 18-20? How many games would Phil Hughes win? 12-14? That six game difference is going to cost $25 Million. Makes absolutley no sense at all to trade Hughes. And how many extra outs/runs etc is it going to cost with JD in cf with his weak arm. I would rather have Dan Haren for a couple of mid-upper minor league players who could win 16-18 games. I really hope Cashman can hold off and the others and not make this trade.
It is so difficult to decipher actual fact from media reporting, misleading leaks and out of the box speculation.
Futhermore, unless you’re part of the Twins or Yankees brain trust you just don’t know what the parties were ultimately willing to give up, what concessions they’d make what give aways etc.. they were planning to offer etc…
If this is actually true and the Twins are asking for JAX, then I turn the Twins down, give them my final offer (Hughes, Melky and Marques or similar) and give them a time limit. It then becomes their decision and I move on.
Maybe we can trick them and legally change Kei Igawa’s name to “Austin Jackson.”
Welcome back Bobcat.
I agree that the Yanks need to get this deal done. I’d hate to think Austin Jackson kept this deal from happening. Fortunately, for every Austin Jackson there’s a Jose Tabata. The Yanks system is stacked.
But I’m glad to hear the Yanks have put a deadline on this and have talked to Oakland. Who’s to say Dan Harren won’t be as good as Johan Santana in ’08?
Steve
I would be hesitant to make any deals with Beane (evil genius). If he’s willing to trade Haren, he must know something we don’t.
I wouldn’t touch any players coming out of Beane organization with a rubber glove and ten foot pole.
In the 2003 WS we went in with Clemens, Mussina, Wells, Pettitte. WOW! And we lost to kids named Beckett, Burnett, Penny and Pavano.
Right now it is well within the ability of the Yanks to win a playoff series or three with Wang, Hughes, Ian, Joba and Moose/Horne/McCutchen..
In the Gammons blog, he does acknowledge and caves in to the certainty of Santana being a Yankee notwithstanding.
When all is said and done, Gammons amounts to no more than a Bobcat wannabe.
Oklahoma scores. What is the national championship game going to be?
LSU vs. USC
You can’t just look at the W-L decisions. There are plenty of games with No Decisions that get ruined by bullpens. Santana keeps you in the game just about every start, even when the fofense isn’t scoring.
Santana gives you 230 innings of the best pitcher in baseball. Hughes gives you maybe 180 good innings. But he and Joba will have innings caps this year anyway. if you are just looking at it from a 2008 perspective, it’s a no-brainer.
So apparently the curse of #2 is about to strike again…
rodg12,
But 24 hours ago the issue was that the yankees have to ugrade kennedy to hughes.
Now they have to upgrade the third prospect to jackson or kennedy.
Now they are just testing the tolerance of the yankees. If you don’t draw the line they’ll be up to we really need joba.
Your right – jackson’s had a small sample size. But it looks like he’s putting it together.
It is not easy to find centerfielders who can play.
I would not make this deal. Potential is potential but now the talent is just off balance.
Phil,,
I see two problems with that scenario you painted;
1. 5/7 listed will be rookies
2. There is not 1 LH in the bunch
Hence the Yankees interest, zeal for Santana.
I’m a braves fan but I also like to do a lot research on minor leaguers. I would give up Jackson before Tabata since Jackson has only been good for one half year and Tabata has hit .300 with a bad wrist. Now that his wrist is cleaned up maybe his power will come fast. Remember Tabata is only 19, while Jackson is 20.
any chance we get cano?
i mean.. ANY? haha
im happy with hughes, melky and a prospect..
lets get this done
“Right now it is well within the ability of the Yanks to win a playoff series or three with Wang, Hughes, Ian, Joba and Moose/Horne/McCutchen”
Ok that may be correct, but what will be a lot harder is making the playoffs. Boston would be favored to win the division, which leaves the wild card. But Cleveland and detroit are both solid teams. If Bonderman rebounds then Detroit will be just as competitive as us and who knows if we even make the postseason.
Yankee21
handedness is overrated. Good pitchers retire both sorts, ones who can’t become Loogy’s. They don’t really have Roogy’s, but a lot of people think Colter Bean would have been a good one.
SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that the Twins are holding out for either Alan Horne or Austin Jackson as a third player along with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera in a Johan Santana deal.
Might as well. The Yankees aren’t exactly known for their ability to draw a line in the sand, and why should they start when it’s the best pitcher in baseball they’re bartering to acquire? We’d part with Horne first, though he emerged as a fine starting pitching prospect last season. Heyman also says that the Red Sox may consider including Jacoby Ellsbury in a deal with the Twins if Minnesota was willing to include another player or two. He goes on to write, “Boston and Minnesota have remained in contact, but it’s believed the Yankees have come closer to meeting the Twins’ asking price to this point.”
This is getting ridiculous. They need to make an offer, and say take it or leave it.
tell Minny to go to hell !!! Action isn’t going over there
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS! LETS GOO DRINK SOME BEERS!
JT
I agree to a point about dealing with Beane, but it’s the lesser of all evils. Haren has an existing contract with a couple of years left on it and if it doesnt work out, it’s not going to cost ya much and you can get rid of him, if Santana turns into ed whitson or Javy Vasquez where stuck with him for 6 years.
//Now he’s cheating his way above Hughes in prospect ranking, which to me is ludicrous.//
I’m dying to know just how someone cheats their way above someone in prospect ranking. Please enlighten us.
And it’s Buchholz, not Buccholz.
I do see where you’re coming from CB. At some point they do have to draw a line in the sand with the Twins and say “This is it.” Like I said, I hope they do it before giving up Jackson but if it’s RIGHT AFTER including Jackson I could accept that. But that HAS to be it.
Postgreg,
Look at the pitching we’ve made the playoffs with over the past few years. Small? Chacon? Karstens? We have a great, great offense.
The yankee system is not stacked with position player at all.
In fact it has a major deficit of talented position players. This started to change some this past season but there is still a major deficit in position players.
In particular they have very, very few athletic players. There are no other jackson’s in the system unless you want to go all the way down the some 17 year old prospects they have in the Gulf Coast league.
Also, after Hughes/ Kennedy/Horne there is a significant drop off in major league ready arms. The rest of the guys in AA/ AAA are good prospects but nowhere even close to the level of Horne.
wow pittsburgh is getting SCREWED. those were horrible calls.
CB
the sox have reportedly included bucholz. which is why the twins turned around and asked the yankees for an even better package. so what happens when the yanks throw jackson in? the twins turn around and say, “well, the red sox are giving us bucholz and X, X, and X, so we can’t take your deal unless you include X.” at some point, it’s got to stop. i was for including hughes in the deal because i think it’s worth the sacrifice, but now it’s become ridiculous. they’re arguing over a third player when they’re already getting hughes and cabrera? i mean, enough is enough. i realize the twins have to try and get the most from the deal but, at some point, they’ve got to take the best deal or explain to their fanbase why two draft picks were worth more than phil hughes and melky cabrera or bucholz and crisp.
Phil? not quite getting your point,, is it really late at night where you’re at or are you speaking in a future language?
Someone call a Wahbulance for Gammons. Posada, Mo homegrown Yankees. The Yankees wanted to keep them, and paid them. BIG DEAL! Posada is the higest paid catcher by 100,000 big money in the real world. Loose change in Hank S couch.
Apparently Gammons forgot the 50 million the Soxs paid just to Talk to Dice!
Does he fail to realize the Yankees currently have
1b Phillips (homegrown Yankee)
2b Cano Homegrown Yankee
ss Jeter Homegrown Yankee
c Jorge Homegrown Yankee
closer Mo Homegrown Yankee
Kennedy Homegrown Yankee
Joba Homegrown Yankee
Wang Homegrown Yankee
Ross Homegrown Yankee
Shelley duncan Homegrown Yankee
Who cares what they earn, they came up thru our system.
CB
Yanks are stacked with position players in the low minors.
West Virginia’s going to lose.
yankee21
It means you don’t have to have a lefty or a righy pitcher as long as you have a good pitcher. Do you not know what a loogy is?
You just made a great point Phil, we have forgot about Jeff Karstens….Why don’t the Yankees try this IPK, Karstens, Melky…I like the sound of that. Plus even not put Karstens in the rotation next year, i like that.
If the Sox have for a fact offered Buckholz in the deal I stand firm. No AJAX, let the Twins make the decision
do they want Hughes or Buckholz.
It is fish or cut bait time for the Twins. Forget the volleys back and forth.
I would draw the line on Jackson
Jennifer don’t forget home grown Yankee Hideki Matsui. Yeah he counts.
The twins seems to keep escalating what they are asking for.
Should be expected as the Sox & Yanks keep on outbidding(or outWHATEVER) to get Santana.
National championship game is a joke. OS-LSU, LSU will win by 24 at least. Reasons why, OS never beat anyone except an overrated Michigan team. LSU will be completely healthy with a month off. Doucet will be 100, Dorsey will be feeling better, Flynn will be healthy, the kid QB is their Tim Tebow and will gash OS.
“nobody gives us the finger! we’re yankees!”
Yanks should pull their offer.
Phil;; sorry don’t know loogys.
I don’t feel too good when apparently Hank is running the show. For all we know he might give them Jackson and Horne along with Hughes and Cabrera. We know Cashman would never make that kind of deal,but Hank likely will.
I commented a couple of days ago what kind of effect giving Santana twice as much money as Beckett (who just helped them win a WS) should not be overlooked.
I was quickly told by a few geniuses here that it “couldn’t be less of an issue” and how absurd my argument was.
As we all know in pro sports: MONEY = RESPECT
Well, since I made that point about Beckett – Mark Feinsand, Peter Gammons, and Buster Olney have all made the same exact point about the effect such a move would have on Beckett and Theo should expect to renegotiate a new deal with him.
I really don’t think Theo wants to open that can of worms. Signing Santana for that much money and that length of a contract goes against everything that organization has been doing in recent years.
This is why the Red Sox are only in this bidding to drive up the Yankee price tag for him.
Unfortunately, the Yanks took the bait and are getting played by the Red Sox.
“I havent heard anyone comment on this. Don’t you think that the Sox will have to redo Beckett’s deal if they sign Santana for $23 per? Add in the luzury tax (not sure of the Sox %) and Johana costs a lot more than $23 per. ”
no one has commented on it b/c it makes no sense.
this is baseball, not football.
you don’t “re-do” contracts.
why does everyone keep bringing this up? it makes zero sense.
Jackson is starting to come into his own, but he has only had half a good season. Besides Minnesota just got a good CF prospect in Pirdie, I doubt that he’s a deal breaker. I would rather not trade Horne either though. How about Ohlendorf?
The Yankees need to finally draw a line in the sand. give them a 4pm est deadline to accept Hughes, Melky, mid level prospect. Take it or leave it. Tell them we have elsewhere to go with the deal. First they want Hughes, we give them Hughes, now they want Jackson. Enough is enough, if we add Jackson will they ask for Tabata next?
I guess the WVU game isn’t quite over if they get a stop here. They’ll get the ball back and with their dynamic offensive players, they’ve at least got a chance.
Bobcat says “There are plenty more where Hughes came from, especially RHP.”
Remember that everyone. Phil Hughes is not a HOF pitcher. He may be a great pitcher but he is no Santana.
Since everyone here seems to love and respect Bobcat, please read what he has to say and stop freaking out about losing Hughes for Santana. It isn’t rocket science.
they are lefty pitchers who are brought in to face one lefty batter, then leave. Ideally Mike Myers would be used like a loogy, but that dimwit Joe Torre would keep leaving him in.
Jeff he was a free agent signing from Japan so he doesn’t count.
Where the source for the Sox being not serious? Contrary reports on ESPN that Sox have approached Twins about more creative deals after Hughes being included.
As a Sox fan, I wish they trade Hughes + Melky + [insert prospect here].
Santana maybe better than Beckett, but Sox then still have all young arms, and no Melky means a Damon (gulp) or worse in centerfield.
Please Hank, get this done!!!
wow WVU sucks.
Holy hell am I laughing at WVU right now.
Phil,
The low minors are exactly that – the low minors. You cannot call a system stacked if they have few talented position players above the low A ball level.
Putting significant degrees of confidence in players in Charleston, Staten Island and the Gulf Coast League is not something you should really do.
Eric Duncan his .373 in staten island. How did he do afterwards?
So I put very little credence in Justin Synder, Damon Sublett, Brayden Pruitt, Frankie Cervelli, Jesus Montero, Zolio Almonte, Prylls Cuello, or Abe Almonte, etc, etc. until they are at least in Tampa.
Brad Suttle hit less than .100 in Hawaii. That’s the low minor leagues. You have no idea what you have until AA or at least high A.
after Action is gone the closest CF prospect is A ball’s CJ Henry, then it’s NYPL Abraham Almonte
stand firm on NO ACTION !! Hank & Cash
Let me clarify the opinion piece of my post:
If you are the Yankees, and if your stated goal is to win the World Series, you HAVE to do this trade. The Yankees do NOT match up well vs. an ace. They don’t have one. They don’t have a #2. You can argue all you want about how Wang shoulda/woulda/coulda, but he didn’t. You can argue all you want about how Hughes woulda/coulda, but he hasn’t. Same with Joba. Both will be good, but none ARE Santana. This is not the Yankees’ farm system of the late 80s, whereby one trade depletes them. They are loaded. This is what you use chips for.
It’s not about how many games will Santana win vs. how many games Hughes will win. It’s a matter of being able to win that one game. At this point, the Yankees don’t have anyone to do that.
Now, on the other hand, if your goal is not necessarily to win the World Series, but more importantly, to win or lose with “your own”, you don’t do this trade.
(You may not want to hear my opinion, as much as you’d like me to give you inside information, but remember, I’ve never done that. All I’ve ever done is confirm leaks as accurate or not. And yes, Buchholz is on the table, but, as written, only for more in return.)
Gammons is so biased it’s ridiculous. On Friday he was basically guaranteeing that the Sox would get Haren if the Yanks got Santana. We’ll see – Beane will want Bucholtz and/or Ellsbury and didn’t they say they were untouchable?
It’s time for ESPN to put him out to pasture and their guys should stop telling us how he’s the ‘ultimate baseball guru!’
Are the Sox kidding, thinking that throwing Coco Crisp into a deal makes it more attractive? Maybe to them since they want someone to take him off their hands. Ugh – I hate the Sox!!
Boston Dave,
He’s not Santana yet, but his minor league career #’s of 2.03 era and .86 WHIP are very, very Santana-like and he put them up by being young for every level he played at.
this college football season is just crazy. I mean wv was 28 point favorites.
“Look at the pitching we’ve made the playoffs with over the past few years. Small? Chacon? Karstens? We have a great, great offense.”
True, but 2005 (Chacon/Small) and 2007(Karstens) were the years where the Yankees struggled most to make the playoffs. They made it, but it was a very very tough battle. Santana not only gives them a much better chance to make the playoffs (even win the division) but also a better chance to win it all. He is the best pitcher in baseball and he is in his prime. This isn’t a Randy Johnson repeat here. The guy is going to be dominant for the next 5 or 6 years.
A thanks to Pete for extending the offer to Bobcat for the update.
I agree with Bobcat in one respect, if the Twins trade him, the Yankees have to obtain him.
However, if the retain him, I wonder whether it doesn’t benefit the Yankees to wait, to hold onto Hughes, and to acquire Santana via free-agency.
The problem is if Pettitte doesn’t return the Yankees are going to need a pitcher regardless. Only Haren doesn’t impress me as worth the sacrifice of Hughes, Haren’s relative inexpense notwithstanding, unless Beane includes Street in the deal.
alright..
i understand that minnesota is asking for alot.. but figure this
our pitching sucks.. its terrible..
wang?
mussina?
an old pettite maybe?
igewa?
i mean.. johan should have 3 cy youngs.. the guy is dominant..
anyone remember his 14 strike out performance against the Sox?
sure hughes is a bonafide prospect, and melky is a decent CF..
but we are talking about the BEST pitching in the last 4 or 5 years.. He pitches 5+ innings everytime out..
our offense may be great.. but in the playoffs we need a pitcher to keep teams down..
so you make the trade..
otherwise we face johan, beckett, schilling, dice k, bucholtz
and WE AINT WINNING THAT
Can anyone confirm that Boston has included Buchholz?? I can’t seem to find that anywhere. No place is reporting that Boston has upped their offer to include Buchholz. From what I understand, I thought Boston viewed Buchholz like we do Joba. Ellsbury would be more attainable than Buchholz… I would think?
Anyone watch ATHF here this is pretty funny, and if you don’t watch it this is still funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipViuTlXr2o
So are the Yankees requesting an additional player since they included Hughes?
Bobcat
Are the Yankees looking for more than Santana if they were to add another high-level prospect (Tabata, Jackson, Horne) in the deal?
A thanks to Pete for extending the offer and a thanks to Bobcat for the update.
I agree with Bobcat in one respect, if the Twins trade him, the Yankees have to obtain him, for the reasons he enumerated.
However, if the Twins retain him, I wonder whether it doesn’t behoove the Yankees to wait, to hold onto Hughes, and to acquire Santana via free-agency.
The problem is if Pettitte doesn’t return the Yankees are going to need a pitcher regardless. Only Haren doesn’t impress me as worth the sacrifice of Hughes and Melky– Haren’s relative inexpense notwithstanding– unless Beane includes Street in the deal and the Yankees don’t have to cede anything higher than a B-prospect as the third player. All of which is highly unlikely.
Bobcat,
I appreciate your argument. But according to your logic the yankees should give the twins whatever they ask for.
Would you trade Joba? Would you trade Cano?
Bobcat,
that’s ridiculous, the Yanks O matches up with anyone. The Yanks have had post season “aces” like Mike Torres and El Duque before.
The best rotations of the last 15 years have been in Atlanta and Oakland the they’ve combined to win 1 World Series.
No one is flat against getting Santana, but they are in favor of using leverage and not watching the Yankees bid against themselves like a bunch of blinded buffoons. They don’t have to give up Hughes or Jackson to get this done, they just have to be patient.
I find it odd, that you yourself said, impatience can be expensive, yet right now as the tied seems to have turned just in that direction, you are now advocating impatience. It doesn’t make any sense.
I noticed you were a good and intilligent poster and i was wondering if you would like to join a great sports forum? http://s15.invisionfree.com/Overtime_Sports/We have 107 members in a week but we really need more members to keep the forum active. Its very active so far. We have a Baseball Mogul 2008 league, an MLB trade center game, and a fastbreak basketball league. Thanks for your time, and hopefully, I will see you there!
Even if the redsux include Bucholtz, the twins arent taking crisp with that $10 mil still owed him. Thats why the twins wont make that deal with them but when the yankees hear they added Bucholtz it makes the yankees scared and offer up Hughes, Caberra and an upper level ML player they didnt want to do. The redsux and twins are playing the yankees and baiting them into giving up more quality than what they were going to do.
The Yankees’ farm is not really that stacked, either in pitchers or position players.
After you get past Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Jackson, and Tabata, we have a bunch of unproven players at the very low levels, some good B type prospects, and some injury question marks.
Brackman, Betances, and Montero have enormously high ceilings, but they haven’t proven anything yet.
//Apparently Gammons forgot the 50 million the Soxs paid just to Talk to Dice!//
Clarification – the Sox did not pay $50 million just to talk to Matsuzaka. The $50 million was a transfer fee, to compensate the Seibu Lions. The Sox could have talked to Matsuzaka for eternity, but if he doesn’t sign a contract, it costs nothing.
This is a common misconception, but that doesn’t make it accurate.
I noticed you were a good and intilligent poster and i was wondering if you would like to join a great sports forum? http://s15.invisionfree.com/Overtime_Sports/ We have 107 members in a week but we really need more members to keep the forum active. Its very active so far. We have a Baseball Mogul 2008 league, an MLB trade center game, and a fastbreak basketball league. Thanks for your time, and hopefully, I will see you there!
They can not I repeat can not trade Action in this deal
CJ Henry wiould be the next everyday type CF, he’s in A ball, Abraham Almonte is in NYPL, they can not let Action go !!!
sunny-
Bucholtz is on the table, look at Bobcat’s updates
go for Haren if they insist on Jackson
And than let me guess what happens next. They go to the Yankees and tell us you have to include Tabata and Action.
i can’t believe the red sox are offering buchholz in addition to lester. if i were the twins, i’d jump all over that, even if it did require an additional player.
That’s called a farm system. None of the players are proven.SMH
Another way to ask my question Bobcat – are the reports of the Yanks going with Damon in CF accurate or will they pursue something else?
SP we have alot of in the minors
MRP we also have
CF is not that rich
Nettles vs. Lee
The Yanks have a really stacked farm. As long as Hank doesn’t totally lose his mind we’re gonna have some of the high upside kids creeping up to AA. A ball and the short season teams are gonna be loaded next year. And we’re still, hopefully gonna have a great pitching staff at AAA.
who has a link saying that bucholtz is included in the Sox offer?
Phil,, well said.
I totally disagree with getting Santana at all costs.
Santana is great, but he alone, will not get them to the promised land, if they mortgage all their chips in getting him to begin with.
It really does appear the Yankees are desperate. I’m the Twins,, I go for the fleece.
there is no link. bobcat says its true and there are rumors. i checked the boston globe — nothing. nothing on espn, nothing on foxsports, nothing on si.
What scares me more, is where Bobcat says, Buchholz is on the table, only for more….what could we take from this….hopefully no Joe Nathan is in this or Lirano or Mauer of Morneau or someone good!.
joe from long island, i’m with you all the way.
finally someone making sense.
http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/
Look on right side of screen for Bucholtz rumor.
And look how quickly Joba and Ian moved thru the system. Both were drafted in the 2006 draft and both ended the 2007 season with the Yankees. Who is to say that our other pithers can’t go thru the system as quickly?
well unless we get a link somewhere
i dont think boston is offering up bucholtz and lester.
thats insane if its true
If Buckholz is on the table in exchange for more,,, then AJAX could be placed on the table in exchange for more.
The Sox probably replaced Lester with Bucholtz in their offer.
//i can’t believe the red sox are offering buchholz in addition to lester//
FWIW, the Boston media reported several days ago that the Red Sox are rumored to be offering Buchholz OR Lester OR Ellsbury for Santana. The Twins reportedly want two of the three, to which Boston has said no.
A variation on that rumor has Buchholz and/or Ellsbury as untouchable.
Another widely publicized story had Boston offering Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson or Bowden. This has not been confirmed by anyone (A recent report says Masterson has heard nothing from his agent about any trade talk.)
Remember, talk is quite cheap and very prevalent.
What scares me is how the Redsox are really making this a blockbuster where Bobcat says Buchholz is on the table, only for more….wowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowow
“What scares me more, is where Bobcat says, Buchholz is on the table, only for more….what could we take from this….hopefully no Joe Nathan is in this or Lirano or Mauer of Morneau or someone good!.”
Liriano? Mauer?
pass me some of that good stuff you are smoking.
buddy,
i know of that rumor, but it isn’t exactly supported by a credible report. not saying it isn’t true. just saying, that isn’t much of a report to rely on.
I don’t think their is any table with Boston. They wouldn’t pay for a table.
Jennifer,
It is highly unlikely for any of the other yankee prospects will move even close to as quickly as those two did.
It just doesn’t happen often that a player is drafted and moves through three levels of the minors and the sees the majors in one year.
Most of the good yankee pitching prospects now are either coming back from surgery or are very young and raw.
hmm.. thanks for the link..
i wish it would mention bucholtz and lester…
cuz if they switched out lester for bucholtz.. then that didnt improve their trade much
So than we offer Phil, Tabata and mid level prospect. By no means do you trade phil, tabata, and melky.
The Yankees haven’t had what can be described as a true ace to begin the start of a series, be it regular season or playoffs. The best they’ve been able to front out there in the last 2 years has been Wang and as hard as he’s tried to be, he really fits more as a 2 or 3 man in the starting rotation. Any serious contender has to have that one guy which causes opposing managers to adjust their rotations accordingly and for the Yankees, Santana is that man.
I don’t believe for one second that Boston offered Buchholz. The Twins are giving you an ace pitcher they are not going to include a pitching prospect in the deal also. Also they are not going to pay Coco Crispies $12m. Are you telling me that Boston would give up 2 pitching prospects, pay about $5m of Crisp’s contract and then give Santana $150m??!! So now they will have 2 aces. Doesn’t seem like their way of business even though year by year they are becoming more and more Yankeeish.
cb thanks for bursting my bubble. Can’t a lady dream?
Bobcat did confirm the leak, hopefully that really was Bobcat.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
this is the most recent update i know of.
Bobcat–I am not sure I entirely agree with your opinion, but I respect it just the same and thank you for sharing it.
If I’m Cashman or Hank here it is Smith Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Gonzalez, take it or leave it you have 24 hours to decide if you say no we’re done.
Not looking good for Mizzou. BCS BEDLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yankee21 Not really considering IMO this actually the first offer in that the Red Sox are putting a very good prospect in. The Yankees have already offered Hughes. Bucholtz=Hughes are IMO equal. The Red Sox throwing in Ellsbury along with the Yankees throwing in Jackson would make both deals just about equal.
1. phil – “the yankees O matches up with anyone…” yeah. and it has for the last three years. how’d that turn out? why did they lose to cleveland last year? because wang was GODAWFUL and carmona shut them down. why’d they lose to detroit the previous year? because the tigers pitching shut them down and that vaunted offense fell apart. so, yeah, if you want to watch them win 90+ games and probably make the playoffs by scoring nearly 1,000 runs, get behind that offense. they’ll probably do it. me? i’d like to see them win the world series again, which means they need a better pitching rotation.
2. bucholz on the table for more – liriano and/or mauer? come. on.
berra8-
Have you tried Arinell’s pizza on Valencia & 16th, NY style like you are used to.
//By no means do you trade phil, tabata, and melky.//
Then the Yankees aren’t getting Santana. Those three would probably be the absolute minimum the Twins would accept.
Hughes is an excellent prospect, probably on a par with Buchholz. Cabrera is a middling outfielder, but he’s cheap, which is a positive for the Twins. And Tabata is still a teenager, and one that hasn’t exactly torn up Class A.
The Yanks have a really stacked farm.
They really do not.
Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba will all pitch in the majors next season.
Jackson and Tabata are the two best position prospects. They will be in AA ball next year.
Horne and Sanchez are the next best pitching prospects in AAA next year. Sanchez is coming off TJ surgery and is a big injury risk. Horne has good stuff, but has had command problems and is a little old relative to the competition. Both will probably end up in the bullpen, especially Sanchez.
Cox and Melancon are good relief prospects, but are coming off elbow surgery.
Cervelli, Gardner, and Gonzelez, might make it the big leagues some day, but they are pretty middling prospects.
There are a lot of intriguing names in the very low ranks – Betances, Brackman, Montero, etc. – but that is still low minors.
kasey,
I think getting rid of Torre and replacing him with a man is gonna fix a lot of the post season crap we’ve seen since the `04 collapse.
Jennifer,
Didn’t mean to burst your bubble!
What I was meant to do is just put some context in for the trade because we’re always talking about how deep the system is with pitching talent.
Kennedy and Horne are sort of the last two talented close to major league ready pitchers they have (maybe dan mccutcheon but they’ll have to see).
Otherwise if they need pitchers from the minors for 2008 its going to be a parade of clippards, wrights, etc, etc, again.
FROM ROTOWORLD.COM
SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that the Twins are holding out for either Alan Horne or Austin Jackson as a third player along with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera in a Johan Santana deal.
Might as well. The Yankees aren’t exactly known for their ability to draw a line in the sand, and why should they start when it’s the best pitcher in baseball they’re bartering to acquire? We’d part with Horne first, though he emerged as a fine starting pitching prospect last season. Heyman also says that the Red Sox may consider including Jacoby Ellsbury in a deal with the Twins if Minnesota was willing to include another player or two. He goes on to write, “Boston and Minnesota have remained in contact, but it’s believed the Yankees have come closer to meeting the Twins’ asking price to this point.” Dec. 1 – 10:33 pm et
source:SI.COM
we don’t need to throw in Jackson that’s it enough is enough, because now it’s the Yankees being used and it’s selling the farm because after Action is gone, Almonte and Henry have ways to go
buddy,
you’re in SF too? awesome. i haven’t, but i will give it a try for sure. i’ve been looking for ny style pizza since i moved out here.
Phil I think you are right, and for the record. Joe should have been fired after 2004 that was unforgivable. Shows you right there that George likely wasn’t even in control of the team than!
A further clarification:
I’m taking the position that IF I’m the Yankees, and IF my stated goal is to win the World Series NOW, then I HAVE to do the trade that is currently “leaked”… Hughes, Melky, another prospect.
Reread my posts. I never said Hughes was not on a list. I never said “at all costs”. I’m talking about THIS trade, IF my stated goal is to win NOW. If the goal is anything other than winning NOW, then grow your own and don’t do anymore trades, period.
cb I hope not, I don’t know if I could bear another parading of every pitcher in the minors.
Jax-
Sorry Austin Jackson does not equal Ellsbury, unless A Jax steals a base in the WS & earned free tacos from Taco Bell for everyone.
If they want anything more thn the deal with Hughes they cn go straight to h, e, double hockey sticks. I want Santana, but I suppose Harren and keeping Hughes isn’t a bad consolation prize.
O.K. if you guys have had enough baseball talk and not enough football, turn to ESPN2 and watch my Warriors hand it to Kasey’s Huskies.
phil,
all due respect, girardi would have put the same lineup out there in ’06 and ’07. maybe he wouldn’t have hit a-rod 8th against the tigers, but that didn’t matter a bit.
also, you can bet girardi would have started wang in game one. they didn’t have anyone else to go to. and therein lies the problem.
torre brought this team four championships in his 12 years. if you do the math, that means they were world champs 33% of the time joe torre was at the help. they went to the world series six times. again, the math tells me that means 50% of the time torre was in charge, they were in a position to win the world series. girardi has one year of big league experience. one. suddenly he’s a “man” and torre’s the reason wang’s not good enough to win an important game? he’s the reason the yankees have been playing scared since they choked away the ALCS in ’04? come on.
Buddy I’m sorry but even talent wise Ellbury will not top Jackson when he gets to the majors
No I’d bet that Joe would have started Wang at HOME! Where he knows he pitches better!
I’m not going to debate every post, in fact, I’m going to have to go soon, but where did anyone get the idea that Haren was obtainable without Hughes? Haren is going to be more costly than Santana. Write that down as fact.
Decent NY pizza can be found, but a good Chicken Parmesan hero, that’s another story. House of Bagels on Geary & 14th is pretty damned good.
I heard on the radio today not all baseball people are sold that Ellbury will be great. Most think he will be okay.
Nettles vs Lee,
The Yanks have had 2 monster drafts and 2 monster IFA periods in a row. And they have some good older parts like Horne, McCutchen, Miranda etc. etc. On a pure talent basis they are probably top 3 and easily top 5 even with the graduations.
I’m willing to give A.Jackson that chance. There’s no doubt he’ll do it.
nettles vs. lee,
nice assessment of the system. it is very “deep” but the distribution of the talent is really, really skewed now to the low A and lower levels or are pitchers coming back from TJ surgery.
I’m happy we have that talent. But much of it is 3-4 years away.
AA and AAA, outside of the AAA pitching staff, isn’t going to be a filled with talent.
Charleston is going to be packed with talent – that’s low A ball.
Tampa will have some nice talent.
It thins out pretty quickly above that.
Ellsbury is major league ready and has a much stronger track record in the minors than Ajax. Ajax has a higher ceiling, particularly because he has shown a lot more power, but Ellsubry has more value at this point.
Thanks Bobcat, that was a little better. By the way I agree with you 100%. They need to go get him even if it takes Jackson. Thanks for confirming Bucholtz, not sure what to make of that.
Funny how this goes, it is now expensive enough that I am almost indifferent to making the deal. That’s how I felt about A Rod too, not sure why I care what the Yankees spend, but as a fan you can’t help but feel it is our collective money being spent.
kasey,
I think Girardi will get better results than Torre did with much the same cast.
Brandon-
We are talking about right now, not in two years.
I guess we’ll see our in la.
Mo was just on the news. He said the Yanks have to get Santana, they need an ace. They asked how he felt about possibly losing Hughes, he said that Hughes could be good in the future but ” You have to give some to get some”. I agree.
I would like to see Ellsbury over a full season before I send him to the HOF.
alright.. that link saying bucholtz is included in the deal is the most ridiculous link ive ever seen..
haha.. i think its safe to say that, that link, sucks..
and that source.. is not credible
I perused through todays entries and found nothing by Bobcat indicating Buchholz was on the table… and no offense guys, but there are over 2300 posts between the last two topics. So if anyone can just point it out to me or quote it, I’d be most grateful.
Poor Phil everyone is ready to trade him even his own teamates.
Bobcat,
Thanks for the clarification. That’s makes what you’re saying clearer.
You’re point on Harren is a very good one. Beane is going to get a hall for him because of how advantageous his contract is. Hughes will definitely have to go for Harren. I don’t even know if Hughes, melky, jackson will be enough for harren.
//Buddy I’m sorry but even talent wise Ellbury will not top Jackson when he gets to the majors//
Oh, man, that’s funny stuff.
Wow, Mo…You should’ve said, “Dat’s too much. We can have them both. We are da Yankees.”
get johan-
It took me an hour to create that website, you no likey?
I agree, the site sux.
I think you just argued against yourself rather successfully. In pointing out the “lack of yankee depth” you just named 14 great/good/decent prospects, and there are many more that you did not mention.
M.
i am… inconsolable.
Rebecca:
is it final?
M.
yes. I cannot believe this crap.
Rebecca:
where?
M.
it was your classic trap game
Rebecca:
where?!
M.
wvu-pitt
no more national title for wvu.
CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT!
Ah found it… so basically if the Twins want Buchholz they’d have to include another player or three. So basically, a non-deal.
mel-
Just like Marian Duncan from ’96
We play today.
We win today.
Das it.
CB:
The problem with trying to acquire Haren, is that EVERY team can be in the mix, because of his relatively cheap cost. Santana is obtainable for the Yankees because of their deep pockets.
there is no credible source saying The Thief is on the table, and I include Bobcat in the group of credible sources. nothing from olney, heyman, bobcat, etc., no reason to believe bucholz is on the table.
Definitely agree with Bobcat on Haren. Haren is cost controlled for the next 4 years (I believe) and doesn’t have a NTC. Therefore, there will be a LOT more teams in the bidding causing the value of the package to rise above the one for Santana.
“Mo was just on the news. He said the Yanks have to get Santana, they need an ace. They asked how he felt about possibly losing Hughes, he said that Hughes could be good in the future but †You have to give some to get someâ€. I agree.”
of course he said that, he is old and he wants another ring.
doesn’t matter to him what’s best for the organization that has made him the richest reliever in baseball history.
buddy
haha
well it was worth the effort
but come on! haha.. i want up knowledgable sports updates..
not some fluff.
granted i know almost everything is rumors…
but atleast i need a credible source!
The Bobcat is right and the Yanks are built and setup for today and not tomorrow….Their lineup is seasoned to say the least, and the rotation is young ( minus a washed up Moose )..So the Santana deal makes sense…I hate to see Phil leave because he is the real deal…..I don’t buy into this Damon in centerfield BS, they’ll need an upgrade out there once the Melk-man leaves…..
Pat who do you suggest they get for cf if the deal happens?
Hey hmmm,
Quote from Mark Feinsand (on pinstripe alley interview)
If Boston gets the player they’re going to pay a big price for him, and I’m not sure Boston would bring Santana in because you’re going to have to pay him $20-$25 million a year while Beckett is making $10 million. That’s not exactly a good message to send to your current ace who just basically rambled through the playoffs and led you to a World Series Championship. All the sudden Beckett’s going to want to renegotiate.
It does make sense to bring it up. Do you really think Beckett will just sit back and say “gee, too bad I didn’t sign a better deal last time, oh well, nothing I can do about it now.”
Boston is bluffing.
Buddy I know that but we’re overrating Ellsbury because he made the playoffs, talent wise he’s not going to beat out Action. Action’s slow progression was because he was a 2 sport athlete, he’s no focused ripping every league he enters , was the #2 prospect in all of Hawaii Winter League this year, you want to let him go too ?
ITS OFFICIAL!! Santana traded for Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and Alberto Gonzalez. SOURCE: ESPN.COM……..hrmmmm doesn’t seem right becuase nothing is on ESPN.COM
I’m thinking if Jackson and Melky go in the trade for Santana, Jones/Rowand will be patrolling CF for the Yanks next year.
PETE THIS BLOG IS LIKE CRACK AND ALCOHOL…YOU JUST CANT GIVE IT UP FOR ONE DAY
get johan-
Do you feel Bobcat is credible?, he confirmed it.
Both want a boatload of money.
I hate Peter Gammons….why does Peter Gammons name get to be in bold?
rodg12:
There are several scenarios that could play for the Yankees in CF. One step at a time.
The Yankees have a good system, no doubt. Much better than what it was just 3 years ago. It is definitely better than many other teams in the league. And the Yankees have certain financial advantages that they will continue to leverage in the foresesable future to add prospects through overslotting and paying for international free agents.
But it is still misleading to call it “stacked” or “loaded.” The TB Rays have a stacked farmed system, when you consider all of the high level talent they have.
Um that isn’t peter Gammons. It is bold because he put a link on it.
Bobcat,
I completely agree on Harren. I don’t know if you agree with this but he may have one of the 5 “best” contracts in all of baseball.
He’s signed for 3 more years at perhaps 3 times less than market value.
Beane is going to turn that into an absolute circus. He can create a 20 team auction for Harren. The yankees competative advantage of having deep financial resources won’t come into play with harren at all. In that sense harren is a bad “value” for them because they can’t use their main weapon.
They yankees have been able to conserve talent by spending money either directly or indirectly.
And harren is right handed.
They will get raked trying to get harren.
I’m sure minnesota has taken that into consideration.
MLBTR UPDATE.
UPDATE, 12-1-07 at 10:30pm: Yanks and Twins are haggling over the third guy – Twins want Horne or Austin Jackson per Jon Heyman. The Yanks are apparently holding out on that front, trying to retain some dignity.
The Red Sox will only give up Ellsbury if they get more than Santana back. How about making this thing a real blockbuster, getting Joe Nathan involved? Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb).
My Advice, give up Jackson RIGHT NOW!
Rivera (and Bobcat) is right. The Yankees’ lineup is the oldest in baseball. Abreu, Posada, Jeter, Damon, Matsui, Giambi, even A-Rod, are all over 30 years old. The Yankees have to make a grab for the brass ring NOW. If they wait for the young pitchers to develop over the next couple of years, what’s going to happen to that lineup?
I suppose they can just go out and buy themselves more players, but the trend seems to be that more and more teams are locking up their young talent early on. Who’s going to be available to take over when guys like Posada and Jeter are gone?
Bob if the Yankees plan on trading Melky, than they have to have something lined up to take his place.
Thanks Bobcat. Mainly wanted confirmation that weren’t definitely going to sit pat and got with Damon. I wouldn’t be a fan of that – weakens two OF spots defensively.
As I been campaigning for Aaron Rowland for quite sometime…..I hope it’ll be him and his RH stick…But you can make book that it will not be Johnny Damon out there
You know, if the Twins were to throw in that Liriano fellow, I’d part with Jackson or Horne.
Ellsbury will be a really good player in his career,if he had more power, he could be great, sounds like if Action progresses he will be a stud for a long time to come.
HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO
Gagne-Nathan-Papelbom doesn’t scare me.
At all.
Maybe I’m jaded, but it doesn’t.
Okajima at least sounds scary.
Gagne sounds like hockey, nathan like a frankfurter and Papelbom like a pug.
I miss Phil Hughes already.
Bring him back!
i think a staff of
johan
beckett
schilling
dicek
lester
wakefield
bullpen of
okajima
paplebon
nathan
gagne
destroys us..
Imagine a 7-8-9 combo of Gagne-Nathan-Papelbon (if Gagne were to accept arb).
I missed the part on why is having gagne on your team a good thing ?
This is just too crazy right now. I am not staying up past 12 to see if Johan gets traded.
Enjoy your night everybody.
That is why you play the games. Wake, and the mouth will be a year older.
I missed the part on how they get Nathan when the Cubs or Brewers can easily get him
CB:
Haren isn’t the type of player that the Yankees have an advantage in trying to secure, as they can’t outbid their competition, though I would expect they’d make a strong play for him, Santana or not.
Just my opinion, but the Haren sweepstakes could be even wilder than Santana’s.
where is Bubba Crosby these days? Damon is an adequate CFer…very good go-get-em guy, no arm. But throwing arm is so over-rated anyway.
Forget Haren…think Harden- he is always hurt, but he has unbelievable stuff. I’d surrender some chips for him. The other reclamation project is Dontrelle. I think he’d be great with the Yankees- but the Marlins want players like he is still good or something
get johan… scarier than the movie I Thing.
Jennifer – Save Phil Hughes!
December 1st, 2007 at 11:25 pm
I heard on the radio today not all baseball people are sold that Ellbury will be great. Most think he will be okay.
Have u hear abt Jose Reyes. I guess u might have. He doesn’t hit 50 HRs per season or something like but he is difference maker. LEAD of hitter, wrecks havoc on the basepaths, etc etc….Samething with Ellsbury. If u think hitting 50 HRs or hitting .350 is the only way to be a good baseball hitter then Ellsbury is not that but he is very GOOD.
get johan: You have no faith.
The Twins won’t include Nathan unless they are getting Buckholz, Ellsbury, Lester, and Pedroia.
” Do you really think Beckett will just sit back and say “gee, too bad I didn’t sign a better deal last time, oh well, nothing I can do about it now.—
yes. that is what he will say.
please, explain what Beckett can do about it, i’d love to hear it.
what is he going to do? refuse to pitch? sit out?
sorry. he’s signed through 2010.
he is SOL.
The last thing they need is Aaron Rowland. He’d be a typical signing of their from the past.
Coming off a career year playing in an absolute banjo box of a stadium. That place is a joke. He’s 31 so just hits free agency in time to start declining.
He’ll ask for at least 5 years probably at around $14-15 million. He’s going to look like a big mistake in a year when he regresses back towards his career numbers.
He won’t be as bad as the Gary Matthews but he’s going to be a terrible signing for someone. Look at his mediocre career numbers.
Bobcat, I appreciate your discussions with us. However, it would be easier to understand where your coming from with some of your statements if you could clear up your identity. I just think it would give us (me especially) some clarification. I have no doubt you are a baseball insider; your knowledge is that extensive.
gehr38@yahoo.com
Andrew Z. Stebbins
hahaha
i have faith
but look at that rotation..
and look at our rotation
gagne is icing on the cake.
he could be great, or suck
wouldnt matter how he performed..
if nathan gets added to that bullpen.. its ridiculous
wont happen.. but still.. wow.
we should get nathan
id trade hughes/kennedy/melky/cano for johan/nathan
You think they wouldn’t have to include lester to get both Johan AND Nathan? What exactly would the deal consist of?
they wont be able to get nathan without giving up more than they do for Santana. Nathan will command more than santana because of his current contract. No way the red sox can get Nathan without giving up ALOT more.
Nettles vs. lee,
I don’t see Horne in the bullpen for a few reasons. One, he has four plus pitches, so putting him in the ‘pen would be a waste. While he did struggle with his control towards the end of the ’07 season, his control was awesome in the first half of the year. Control is the last thing that comes back for guys who had Tommy John, so hopefully Horne is finding his.
CB:
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves on the CF situation. Let’s see who ends up going in a Santana trade.
Trying to figure out all of the permutations would make your hair hurt.
1st things 1st. Love the blog and love reading Bobcat’s posts. Thanks guys.
Now on to business. I can’t take this anymore. I want a resolution to Santana already. Trade or no trade. I just wanna know cause this is driving me crazy. Plus it’s going to interfere with a football Sunday.
In my best Howie Mandel impersonation, deal or no deal?
NYY–
Jose Reyes didn’t have a good year at all, and many are calling for the Mets to trade him…so there goes that argument…
” I don’t know if you agree with this but he may have one of the 5 “best†contracts in all of baseball.”
hey, maybe he’ll demand the A’s renogiate his contract.
oh, wait, that’s impossible. because that has never happened before in baseball.
Bobcat,
Nathan’s destination still most likely the NL Central or are more teams getting into the bidding now?
Bobcat,
I really hope the yankees don’t get caught up in the insanity that is going to be dan harren.
If the red sox and yanks got into this type of escalating struggle as a two team auction the harren situation is going to be a mess, especially with how poor the free agent market is.
Plus it makes me really, really nervous that Beane wants to trade him. I don’t trust that guy at all because he doesn’t make many mistakes (eric chavez aside).
What are your thoughts on why Beane may want to trade him? On the surface Harren looks like the perfect Oakland player – he’s signed for 3 years at a ridiculously cheap contract.
That makes me thing Beane doesn’t believe in Harren’s talent and thinks Harren’s trade value is at the highest its going to get.
Just wondering what your opinion is – not looking for any “inside information” you may have.
(source)
Per NY Times, Yanks want an answer from Twins by Monday.
MIKE R
im thinking bucholtz/ellsbury/youk/pedroia
otherwise include lester..
just a blog.. just throwing it out there.
ohh, and even if the sox do trade lester.
you cannot tell me that the yanks will all of a sudden destroy that rotation
kepner’s a stud. there’s yer confirmation that bucholz is NOT on the table.
Haren would be just as costly (if not more so) than Haren because of service time, and he won’t require an extension either, making him available to more teams, if they have the right prospects.
If your the Yanks you cant exactly ask for the best pitcher in baseball but then tell the other team that you have 7 untouchables. That will not work…
Bobcat – Good to see you back.
Much as I would love Hughes to stay and make it big here, Mo is right – Hughes COULD be good in the future, but we’re dealing in the here-and-now, and you have to give something to get something. (I’m starting to emotionally separate.)
The poster above has it right – this team is built to win now. Otherwise, why did we bring back old pros like Mo and Posada?
Santana, Joba, Wang, Kennedy, Mussina – maybe Horne, Sanchez, Ollie, Melancon in the ‘pen at some point. That’s not too shabby.
Haren more costly than Haren Andrew???
Idon’t see Horne in the bullpen for a few reasons. One, he has four plus pitches, so putting him in the ‘pen would be a waste.
His stock has risen a lot in the past year, so I certainly could be wrong about him. I hope Horne’s glowing scouting reports are true.
Gagne isn’t staying with Boston. They offered him arb so they could get the draft choice (a sandwich pick) when he leaves. He wants to close, and there are teams out there who will give him the opportunity.
Schilling will retire after 2008. If the Red Sox do not get Santana, their rotation, in 2009, would probably be:
- Beckett
- Matsuzaka
- Lester
- Buchholz
- Wakefield (if he doesn’t retire, and as a kuckleball pitcher, he could certainly hang on for a while yet)
Possibilities:
- Bowden (though he’s very young)
- Masterson (could start, could end up as a reliever)
The bullpen for this coming season will include Timlin (just re-signed), Delcarmen, Okajima, Papelbon, and possibly Corey and/or Hansen (who finished strongly in Pawtucket and in Arizona).
Those are the right 5 players to put on the current untouchable list.
At least according to the NY Times this looks like it may be getting down to either the twins take the yankee offer or keep sanatana:
“Minnesota does not want Crisp, who is owed $10.5 million over the next two seasons. Unless the Twins knew they could trade Crisp to another team for a player they like, they would probably reject Boston’s offer.
That would leave the Twins with two options: accept the Yankees’ offer or keep Santana, who will make $13.25 million next season and has already rebuffed Minnesota’s offer of a four-year, $80 million extension.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....ref=slogin
id trade hughes/kennedy/melky/cano for johan/nathan
You.Are.An.Idiot.
CB:
My opinion as to why Oakland is shopping Haren is that they have chosen to rebuild, and their farm system is absolutely awful. Haren is one of the few commodities they have that they can convert into at least four solid prospects. I don’t think many believe Haren is flawed.
HAH! My bad, I mean Haren more costly than Santana.
CB,
Kat O’Brien talked with a scout on the Newsday blog who is really down on Haren. Thinks he’s a middle of the rotation starter and that Bedard is better. Not to promote the competition, but check out her write-up.
id trade hughes/kennedy/melky/cano for johan/nathan
You.Are.An.Idiot
minnesota should tell us to “Sit and Spin”
no way can we be telling them who is untouchable..
my god..
thats absurd
Bobcat,
Why do you think their farm system is awful? It certainly isn’t as ripe as say, the Yankees’, but theyve got a few good, young players. I like the young potential of Barton-Buck-Suzuki.
If they did make that trade then they would have a scary rotation, but their defense would take a big hit. I don’t know how many runs they’d produce if you take those three guys out of the lineup next year.
Am i the only one that would rather go after Bedard than Haren? Bedard, at least, is a lefty…
and I did not mean to say they shouldn’t rebuild, but just wanted to point out that it isnt like their desperate.
Andrew:
Barton-Buck-Suzuki are not in their farm system. I believe their farm system is awful because it is.
the problem is that the Orioles would never trade Bedard to the Yankees, at least according to everything I’ve read. In the same division and Angelos hates the Yankees.
CaptainsCorner:
Normally no, but when the Yankees offer blows away the confirmed Sux offer, I definitely think it is reasonable.
ALVIN December 2nd, 2007 at 12:00 am
id trade hughes/kennedy/melky/cano for johan/nathan
You.Are.An.Idiot
geez your F in stupid!
SP and RP (aside from Mo) are by far the Yanks two biggest weaknesses. I’m in favor of the Santana deals discussed here (despite the pain of losing two awesome young players).
Anyone think a mega-blockbuster including Nathan is being discussed for the Yanks (not just for the Sox)?
Hughes, Melky, Horne, Cano and a lesser prospect for both?
Then sign a field-first 2B, and bide time in CF until Jackson.
Just throwing it out there. What do you think?
Bobcat,
That is very, very interesting. I can’t recall Beane every truly throwing in the towel like that and explicitly rebuilding from the ground up.
They always seem to be retooling on the fly hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.
Didn’t know their system was that bad. Although I have seen that many people think that Beane was a victim of his own success with the draft – his “moneyball” philosophy of drafting productive college guys was copied and he couldn’t dig up the same values as he had in the past.
I’d assume that means Harden and Street are going to go if harren is moved. That will be some series of auctions.
Bobcat,
I agree, which is precisely why we should be pulling Phil Hughes from the offer immediately. If the goal is developing youth, then it cannot be winning at all costs on any given year. You need to give the youth time to develop at the major league level. We’ve been chasing that one last guy for this entire decade now, and have fallen short every time to teams for which the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It’s beyond ridiculous, and the insanity has to stop now before the team becomes even more overbloated than it already is.
Enough of this. It’s time to come to reality. Johan Santana will bring us no closer to winning a damn thing.
Ethan: Ach, minor detail
If Bedard keeps doign what he’s doing, he’s gonna demand more $ than Angelos is going to want to pay, of course…
Why send another quality player for Nathan, when hes:
a)Only signed for another year
and b) only going to serve as a setup man
Seems very unneccesary.
Has everyone forgotten that there is also a very good prospect in humberto sanchez that the yankees also have waiting in the wings that we haven’t even seen before. He’s coming off serious surgery but he should be ready by June at the LATEST. He’s an excellent pitcher and was a big part of the gary sheffield mess. Sanchez is the real deal too, he is chamberlainesque….
Take a pass on Haren, besides he loves his beard……Bedard would be a far superior pickup…..Even with Santana, Wang, Joba, Kennedy, the club still needs to replace Mussina….So Cashamn could still be looking for another arm…..Damn, I hate to see Phil leave but Santana is only going to get better, much like Pedro did at the same age when he went ot Beantown…..You have to make this deal…..
get johan:
Minnesota isn’t in the best situation right now, although they are making the best out of it. If they don’t get a deal done, they end up with only 2 draft picks. Let’s not remember, the Yankees have the best offer on the table, they know it, and the Twins are still haggling over dupping us for a high ceiling 3rd prospect.
Not only does Oakland have a barren farm system, the major league club has a talent deficit. Beane doesn’t have much of a choice except to go into full blown rebuild mode.
whats the deal here
we have the cy young of baseball..
the left handed pitcher that would have helped you beat the indians ( cuz he woulda struck out peralta everytime up) yet he was 0-5 against cleveland this year
and your telling us who you will and wont trade?
come on.. give up cano!!
haha
YankeeJosh,
Thanks for the link. I don’t like the yankees going after harren becasuse he’s going to cost too much in talent. I personally don’t care how much the team spends. I like their approach of using what they do have – money – to conserve what they have less of – talent.
I personally don’t think Harren is close to Bedard’s league. Again, Bedard being left handed just puts him in an entirely different class. Also has nastier stuff.
Problem with bedard – he doesn’t stay healthy and peter angelos is peter angelos.
Also bedard might do really poorly in new york. really poorly. he’s supposed to be a radically introverted person – to the point where he sort of shuns anything more than minimal contact with most other people. And he absolutely hates the press. May be due to him coming from a very small town in canada.
Just settle on Jeff Karstens and be done with this!
the problem facing the yanks is they’ve built for the future, but their stars are here and now and aren’t getting any younger. with pettite maybe leaving what good veteran pitcher is there on the team? On the other hand imagine the rotation of hughes/kennedy/chamberlain/horne/brackman/maybe sanchez if they don’t move him to the pen, which would be stupid..that would be a ridiculous rotation…better than maddux/glavine/smoltz in my opinion (of course i am a yankee fan so its not exactly an objective opinion) The yanks need to stop stockpiling pitchers and focus on infielders…decide the strategy now and stick to it in the future, it will pay dividends either route
“That is very, very interesting. I can’t recall Beane every truly throwing in the towel like that and explicitly rebuilding from the ground up.”
Are you kidding? Remember when he traded two of the ‘big three’ in the same year? He didn’t get much for Hudson, but he got Danny Haren and Daric Barton for Mulder.
For trading Hudson, Oakland got Dan Meyer, who had just put up a 2.50 ERA in AA and AAA in 2004. They also got Charles Thomas, a 25-year old up-and-comer who had just put up a .288 .368 .445 line in the majors, and a .350 .430 .530 line in the minors.
Just some perspective on what it takes to get elite pitchers.
Beards are legal. Munson had one
CB & Andrew:
I’ll not be the authority/expert on this one. We’ll defer to Baseball America’s 2007 Farm System Rankings:
1. Rays
2. Rockies
3. Diamondbacks
4. Angels
5. Yankees
6. Dodgers
7. Brewers
8. Twins
9. Red Sox
10. Indians
11. Royals
12. Reds
13. Mets
14. Tigers
15. Braves
16. Marlins
17. Orioles
18. Cubs
19. Pirates
20. Giants
21. Phillies
22. Astros
23. Cardinals
24. Mariners
25. White Sox
26. Blue Jays
27. A’s
28. Rangers
29. Padres
30. Nationals
hmmm,
OK fine! I guess there’s not much he can really do officially. That said, I still just don’t think that Theo wants to piss off his ace. Nobody had ever paid $50 million to a Japanese team before last year either but it happened, so I don’t think a demand for a renegotiation is as crazy as you make it out to be.
I can’t think of a situation where a free agent was brought in making two and a half times as much as the best player on a team. It just seems like a bad decision and not Theo’s style.
and by the way, the tables are turning on minnesota in this..they should’ve pulled the trigger on this deal about 5 hours ago…the bosox are obviously not serious and the yankees know it, the steinbrenners will not be bullied into a deal that’s for sure, talk about ironic if everyone sticks to their guns, yanks go get haren with less at the table, probably kennedy/cabrera/tabata or jackson would get it done and then come next offseason they just outbid everyone for santana…wang/santana/haren/hughes/chamberlain….best case scenario in my opinion
but does anyone really think that the yanks brass will back away from a johan trade for some 20 something year old prospect?
they have never done it before..
but it would be something else to see
but i dont think a 20 year old will make the yanks say no to a perenial cy young candidate
Dan Haren is the very definition of sell high. It is no coincidence that Beane threw his name out there in a SP starved market coming off of a career year.
Looks like this might get done
rotoworld
A Yankees official told Newsday on Saturday night that he is optimistic about the team’s chances of acquiring Johan Santana.
Newsday didn’t have any additional info on who might be included along with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera.
We should all say our goodbyes to Phil.
I hope it’s obvious to everyone what is going on. It’s a game of tit-for-tat. Every news report that comes out is catered to up the ante of the other team team. First it was Boston is closer to a deal than the Yanks. Then the Yanks put Hughes on the table and they’re closer to a deal. Now Boston puts Buchholz on the table for an additional player. Like Bobcat said, you hear what they want you to hear. These reports are purposefully being leaked.
Bobcat,
Yanks have anything in the fire on acquiring a bullpen arm or are they sticking with resigning Viz and maybe another FA and filling out from within??
Why on earth would we want Joe Nathan? So he could set up for Mariano?
Forget trading for a 1978 Ron Guidry….maybe we can trade Hughes for an early 90′s Dennis Eckersley and he could set up for Mariano. Bobby Thigpen could pitch the 7th. We’d beat the Sox for sure then.
Andrew,
He did trade the big 3 – but they still remained competative during that time.
Also he hung on to Zito for a while and rebuilt on the fly.
They weren’t truly awful during that time and still did things like sign Chavez to a long term deal, get jason kendall, etc.
Signing your all star third baseman to a $60 million dollar deal is not a sign of flat out rebuilding.
http://www.sell.com/2389VV
Great site full of games there!!
Dan haren translated in Taiwanese is “Chien Ming Wang”- same guys…good 2 or 3, but not a “Santana”…not close
Yanks Prospectus; That’s exactly the idea.
By the way, what reason would the A’s have to get rid of Haren other than to hand him to the Red Sox
Funny thing is, the Twins aren’t deperate to trade Santana. They have come out and said they are willing to sit on Santana if their demands aren’t met. Here are a few thoughts to ponder:
1) The Yankees can play games and “go after” Haren, but he gets hurt every year. Santana doesn’t…hasn’t hardly missed a start in the last two or three years.
2) Who cares if Boston isn’t “serious”. Santana has a 92-44 record over his career. Are you kidding me? Yankee fans are worried about whether to include a kid who isn’t proven to do anything yet (Hughes) over a guy who has TWO Cy Young awards and should have had a third. It really is a tragedy that the team that developed this monster talent can’t keep him…and yet the Yankees are holding back…
3) If the Yankees higher ups have a brain in their skulls, they will take Santana while they are guaranteed to get him by upping the offer, or risk Boston getting him…or maybe even the Mets. All three teams are one player away according to the many internet sites…
how about neshek?
any interest there???
we trade you neshek you trade us cano?
i’d rather have bedard than haren on my team, but the o’s are less likely to deal within their own division and even more less likely to deal to the yankees. think back, when was the last time the orioles traded a worthwhile player to the yanks? ain’t happening.
losing out on santana is going to be costly to the yankees in that they’ll end up having to give up the exact same package, or more, to get haren, who isn’t even as good as santana. it’s a slippery slope. either way, hughes is gone. so, if you’re a proponent of keeping hughes, then forget haren, santana or somebody like bedard. they’re not getting a frontline pitcher without giving up something that’s going to hurt a bit. if they’re going to get hurt, might as well do so by getting the best pitcher in baseball.
if the twins walk away from hughes/cabrera/b-level prospect, so be it, i guess. the yankees need to figure out who they will and won’t deal and stand firm. are horne and jackson really worth losing out on santana? if so, stand by it. hughes wasn’t on the untouchable list since day one, so including him in the deal was probably inevitable. i don’t necessarily believe that either horne or jackson is worth losing out on santana, but i believe that if the yankees give in on horne or jackson, minnesota’s just going to keep upping the ante.
i’d like to see them get santana. i wouldn’t be distraught if it took hughes/cabrera/horne to do so. but i can respect cashman wanting to draw a line in the sand SOMEWHERE.
Bobcat,
Thanks. When you mentioned the lack of talent in their system in your original post that made sense for why they had to trade Harren. The baseball america link is interesting. I didn’t know their system had deteriorated that badly. I just usually associate them with scouting, player development, while at the same time somehow remaining competative.
Get johan, did you really just make that comment? cant believe someone besides me has said that, we are talking JOHAN SANTANA!! how can you tell the twins anyone is untouvhable
Bobcat,
When you get this message please email me at gehr38@yahoo.com. Its time sensitive, and fairly important.
Thanks.
AS
Hughes, Melky, Karstens, and Gonzalez. Cmon…do it already!!
minnysota, the only problem I see is that santana has awful career avgs against the AL East for one, and the new GM is waiting way too long on this one. I can see very easily the Steinbrenners getting pissed about being pushed around in this, especially in the public eye. I can definitely see why now the yanks are putting a window on this thing. Be careful, this deal may come off the table if the yanks continue to see the sox as not a real player in this.
Yanks Prospectus, what information do you have regarding the viewpoint in Minnesota?
Oh, and I 2nd CBs post about the As Farm System, although its possible they turned it around after this draft, because clearly the Nationals’ aren’t 30th any longer.
I’d take Bedard over Haren too…I can’t imagine getting a good deal from the Orioles though.
They’d want Wang, Tabata, Horne, etc
minnysota,
I love neshek. at times you watch him and just shake your head – how is someone supposed to hit his stuff?\
that said i would not trade cano unless pujols, fielder, howard, verlander, etc, etc was on the other end of the deal.
Relief pitchers not named rivera have a way of burning out way too quickly.
nice try though
Yanks P
i understand that view point..
and i would like to know who is puttin deadlines on this thing
trust me when i say this
when i heard hughes was involved last night.
i wanted that trade accepted right there..
im more then happy with hughes, melky, and a prospect
but i would like the prospect to be jackson or tabata
heck.. do the yanks have any 3rd baseman in the lower levels that we could get?
Bobcat you are an insider god. Your rumors are not plastered all over the internet – you must have access to Cash’s voicemail.
Please email me so we can set up a date and you can whisper sweet trade rumors in my ear. Perhaps insidery little tidbits, straight from the hot dog vendor at Dodger Stadium: “LA has an interest in Cabrera. I can’t say anymore, because I’m a top-secret insider, but prospects will be involved. ”
I love it when you speak in authoritive obviousness, like a psychic trying to suck every dollar out of her naive audience: “If the Yankees trade Melky, they will address their CF, mark my words. I’ll have more esoteric responses later.”
Hey guys, I’m an insider, I got a scoop too: Johan might get traded! Loretta may/ may not be signing with Yankees or AL team or team in a central or eastern division!
Now lets all give Mr. Stebbins our personal info and trade secrets, because hey, he asked nicely.
———————————————-
Ok i had to just poke a little fun. Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled Johan.
well the yanks biggest problem is starters and bullpen..
maybe johan/neshek could get us hughes, melky, tabata, kennedy or karstens?!!?
As for the Sox just driving up the asking price. If the Mets were the team involved for Santana, would Boston even bother? IMO that Santana’s contract would mess up their whole salary structure that it wouldn’t be worth it.
The Giants say Lincecum is available for a premier RH bat in his prime. Cano would seem the only player from the Yankees that fits that description. Cain is also available, but for more.
they’re not getting a frontline pitcher without giving up something that’s going to hurt a bit. if they’re going to get hurt, might as well do so by getting the best pitcher in baseball.
That’s why the talk about Haren is a bluff. It would cost more, and he is not as good as Santana.
It’s either Santana or keep the kids.
troy, get johan:
So your basically saying yo uare willing to give up anyone to get santana and his 150 million dollars, and also willing to give up as many players as it takes?
Do whatever it takes, whatever it takes!!! That not a smart way to run a business, and it hasn’t worked for the Yankees in the recent years.
I mean seriously, with your thinking the Yankees should give up their top 5 players just for Santana. There has to be a line somewhere, there always is, and that just so happens to be where the Yankees drew it.
Uh, Greg, Cano is LH.
So who likes cookies?
Greg
Cano is lefty.
Getting Erik Bedard would be a very nice thing but it is essentially a pipedream. The O’s fans would riot (if there are any O’s fans left) as a result of their ace being traded to a team within their division. If you’re going to trade your ace to a division rival, then you may as well make one announcement to your fanbase- we give up. Unless the O’s received some super talent in return from the Yankees, trading Bedard to them would send the Orioles into an even bigger mess than the one that they have right now.
BCS Title Game- Ohio St. versus LSU? Georgia? Kansas? I have no idea. The one thing that Kansas has working for them is that they only have one loss. Since the start of the BCS, no team with two losses has ever played for the national title. But Kansas really had a soft schedule.
Andrew:
To paraphrase, “What happens on the blog, stays on the blog.”
Sorry.
You people don’t get it.
Lefties don’t matter in the rotation. Give me five good righties over 4 good righties and one medium good lefty. In fact, I think a good number of lefties who should be in AAA are in the majors solely because of that fact; they are oddities and exist only based on this misconception.
Greg in CT…does Shelley qualify?
You are correct, Yankee Jay.
Gammons, Olney and Feinsand have all made the very same argument in the last couple of days.
These guys have a little more insight as to how things work inside the clubhouse than hmmm.
Here’s what Gammons (that so-called BoSox homer said about it):
“In other words, if Boston had been willing to give up Minnesota’s’ request — Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jed Lowrie — the Red Sox not only would have to give Santana $20-something million, but likely would have to redo Josh Beckett’s contract, which is $10 million in 2008, $10 million in 2009 with a $12 million club option in 2010.”
Here’s Feinsand:
Besides, how do the Red Sox, who have been very strict in recent years about sticking to their guns when it comes to length of contracts and annual salaries, give Santana a six-year deal for $150 million? How do they explain that to Josh Beckett, who makes “only†$10 million? Don’t you think Beckett would be at Theo’s office the next day demanding to renegotiate? I know if I was him, I certainly would be.
Olney said the same thing last night on ESPN.
Why do these insiders think this would be an issue for the Red Sox but not our LoHud genius by the name of “hmmm”?
Bobcat:
My guess is this list that the paper reports is another posturing form to basically say, “Look we gave you what you want, pick your last piece and let’s finish up.”
Am I reading that right?
We can slam the door shut on Boston by offering Joba + crap which is essentially what Boston’s doing if they’re trading those rumored players like Crisp to go along with Buchholz. Joba’s big body may prevent him from sustaining high innings totals over the long haul. If he becomes a closer, we’re basically trading a closer for an ace. Joba’s going to have the strictest innings cap among any of the young starters. By trading Joba we’re creating more innings and preserving our ML ready position players of which we have hardly any. We have a ton of hard throwing righty reliever types.
Joba + Gardner + Gonzalez
JT, I think Minnesota is waiting for rumors to swell up. What Epstein should do is to have one of his execs spread a rumor about the POSSIBLE inclusion of bucholz in the deal, yanks will know its a bluff if its ellsbury. I think Minnesota is waiting for this but I don’t think its coming anymore, we would’ve heard about it by the end of the day press release. That leads me to think that the deal with the sox is on the backburner to the yanks deal, as has been reported. Minnesota HAS to realize that this is a serious problem for the deal and needs to stop pushing it. Just like the Yankees could have pushed A-Rod to sign for much less money, why push things? Can you imagine having to fill a role at 3B along with this whole Santana thing? Johan would’ve been on the way to Beantown by last Wednesday or the Yankees would’ve completely overpaid for him, leaving them not a lot of chips for Miguel Cabrera or visa versa. In the same way, the twins have to realize that hughes will be a perennial cy young winner (did you see his stuff before he went down with that hammy problem? at 21 with the intelligence he has, he’s only getting lightyears better)and cabrera and a mid-level yankee prospect in one of the best farm systems in the game is an EXTREMELY good consolation prize for losing 29 year old Santana. You still have Mauer Cuddyer and …whats that guys name MORNEAU…they are poised to go into their new stadium with some major firepower. delmon young and cabrera would be dynamic in that outfield and would be really fun to watch.
Joba isn’t moving half an inch away from cashman. terrible idea.
The more I think about this whole Johan thing, the more I ask myself, how is Boston going to pay Johan $25m/yr and justify that to Becket? He probably wants a raise to at least close to $20m/yr. Won’t that put the budget conscious Red Sox over the limit and into the luxury tax bracket? I am thinking $165m/yr? Are they willing to do that and become the next evil empire? Or are they just trying to drive up the price for the Yanks?
If I was BC, and Minn. keeps going back and forth to Boston and NY, I call their bluff and say, DO IT! I bet that Boston will not pony up the money that Johan is looking for, and they back out of the deal.
Save Phil Hughes petition! Sign it and spread it! Already 140 people have signed (1st night). The goal is 10,000, so you guys have to sign and tell people about this. This link should be on all NYY blogs:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com.....hil-hughes
I know some people think Hughes SHOULD be traded for Johan but if you don’t SIGN. Free, easy, all online!
I wouldn’t think even the Giants FO would go for Shelley, but then again I have difficulty with the L or R thing.
The Wanks are retarded for even thinking about trading Hughes! Santana is on the decline; just look at his stats! He’ll get lit up at the Stadium. Expect him to turn in an ERA around 4.
If you have the chance to get Johan, you aren’t backing out. It’s a knife in the heart to the other guy.
Bobcat,
What makes a championship team? Is it building the strongest unit possible, or is it collecting the strongest individual piece at every position?
On Boston not paying Santana -
Remember one year ago when Boston shocked everyone in baseball by bidding $52 million to talk to a player from Japan?
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. They’re not just joking around at this point – if they’ve entertained trading buchholz in an permutation of a trade they want santana.
wow i left this blog for few hours and there are 2500 more johan trade posts. this is an insane winter. i briefly skimmed and wanted to post a few things:
1) we cant be trading 2 of our best of prospects with an outfield right now of damon, matsui, and abreu
2) i think holding on to tabata is more important than ajax considering hes been more consistent for a longer time. im not saying ajax cant be a better player but they are all still prospects, and tabata is projected to have bigger numbers
3) our pitching depth is our strength so we can afford trading hughes although weve all been hearing about him forever and his stuff is nasty. this season we can see joba, ipk, horne, hughes, and sanchez all making an impact
4) what package would we need to offer the twins for santana/nathan? cause we cant have the farns in the 8th
5) what are our other bullpen options?
Jonathan
As long as he pitch 8 innings, the Yanks can score 5 and we have Mo, I can live with that.
If Cashman can’t stick up for the baseball people in the organization, he’ll deserve the axe when he gets it. I highly doubt the Yankees scouts and personnel development would ever want to trade Hughes, Melky and Jackson for Johan Santana.
here is a question i have
if ellsbury is soo untouchable..
why do the redsox still have crisp??
they know we dont want coco..
unless lester/bucholtz/crisp is offered up.. we wont take the deal
and it was rumored that the yanks wanted loretta…
it has been since denied, but loretta could play 2nd base cuz cano could be moved to minnesota.. but loretta would be a great addition to any bench
its a pipe dream cuz im from minnesota and i want cano!
cept i know it aint happening
CB,
Even so, they were able to justify to Boras as well as their players, that Matsuzaka would only be getting 50 mil over the life of his contract. That whole international bigging game is a totally different animal and shouldn’t be compared to the Johan 25/mil a year scenario.
The Minnesota Twins are ten times the franchise that the Yanks are bang for buck. This no-name interim GM is already having his way with Cashman. Just imagine what Beane would do!
It’s amazing how much you people underestimate the amount of money the Red Sox organization has.
They won 2 world series in the last 5 years. They are flush with cash.
CB
25M for Santana might htrow them over the luxury tax so it’s really closer to 30M a year. The 52 million was a one shot deal and didn’t count against luxury tax. Big difference.
when did the “numbered” method of
1) making posts
2) arguing
3) bashing front office
become so popular?
Minnysota,
If Billy Beane were GM of the Twins, he’d get Buccholz and Lester for Johan.
Offense wins games
Defense wins championships
Pitching creates dynasties.
jonathan fields forever
Smith is by no way a no named interim GM. He is part of the same team that got Santana in rule 5 draft, and liriano/nathan in trade for Pierzinsky.
They are great talent evaluators and good at negotiating.
Different scenario now, CB.
At this time last season, Beckett had a terrible 2006 and Boston missed the playoffs. Their starting pitching was a complete disaster with a lot of question marks.
Now, they’ve just won a WS and Beckett has turned out the way they expected. With the addition of Buchholz, their starting pitching should be in good shape.
Right now, they are in a position of strength – not of weakness as they were at this time a year ago.
When Boston gave the high bid of $50+ millions to talk to Matzuzaka, it was a one time thing, and it did not affect their budget for years to come. This will throw them into another bracket category altogether, and tie their hands for years to come. That is not Boston’s style of doing business.
I could be wrong, and they have changed their philosophy now since they have tasted 2 world championships in four years…
I DON’T WANT CABRERA IN THE DEAL!
The Twins have a CF in AAA who is expected to be the CF of the future (Denard Spann).
The CF they should get is Corey Patterson to patch things up for a year.
Yankee fans are too hung up on Melky…he is young…but I don’t think he is going to be all that better than what the Twins already have…the only difference is the Twins are waiting for Spann to develop a little more…maybe a full season in AAA.
AND I would really want to trade Joe Nathan because they have a much cheaper (and as good an) option in Pat Neshek…that’s why the Twins are willing to trade Nathan next week!
Master Wangkee
twins need one star pitcher and position players..
even if we got lester/bucholtz
we still have gapping holes in our offense..
need a CF, 3rd baseman, SS, 2nd baseman/ DH
that trade does nothing for the twins cept having to turn one of them into a bat
the “numbered” method did not argue or bash front office. its helpful in creating topics in such an active blog though
You think the yankees should fire cashman because they are considering trading hughes/ melky and jackson but think it would be a good idea to trade Joba a guy with a K to BB ratio of 212: 36 since he was drafted? Seriously?
Minysota,
I think the same rule applies in trades of this magnitude that apply in drafts. You try to get the best players available and go from there. You won’t be able to solve all of your needs by trading one player.
The only justification I can make for trading Joba is if there are concerns regarding this health.
minnysota,
i’m guessing you watch nathan often. how good is he really? Is he lights out?
jay destro,
I agree with you on the boston money issue. they have a television network and have sell out every game and have the highest ticket prices. I don’t think we have any idea how much money they generate.
No matter what you say now they shocked the baseball world by offerring $52 million to talk to a guy who’d never thrown a major league pitch.
A 7 year $150million deal doesn’t soung like their style but after $52 million for negotiation rights I think most bets are off.
They haven’t gone this deep into the discussion, but significant talent on the board just to low ball santana.
CB,
I view Joba as a lights out closer. Those peripherals are great. I’m not arguing his stuff. I’m questioning his stamina and his longevity. Is he not on the strictest innings cap among our young starters? Do you recall how strict the Joba rules are? I fear if they try to make him throw hard over 160-200 IP per season, he could burn out and turn into Kerry Wood. Power pitchers don’t usually last very long.
Yanks P
Nathan is dominant.. Other then Papelbon.. i think Nathan has passed up Rivera.
his fastball sets up a great slider that just locks up hitters..
so yea.. when rivera signed for 15mil a year..
i imagine nathan is right up there
BREAKING NEWS
Germans Surrender! Victory in Europe!
CHRIST PEOPLE… KEEP JOBA AND KENNEDY, it’s bad enough they are going to trade Hughes.Some of you people are so short-sighted it’s ridiculous.
If we trade for Santana do we finally end the no goatee rule? It could be the deal breaker for Johan.
bkight:
i am sure for the right money Johan will shave “I LUV HANK” in the back of his head.
Didn’t Gene Michael say that the Yanks should trade Phil for Santana a few days ago ???? The Red Sox did exactly what they wanted to accomplish, they forced the Yanks to include Hughes as the centerpiont of this possible trade….If it were not for their involvement the Yanks would or could just sit back and wait…As we all know, the prospect of Johan loining the Boston rotation would just be a killer……I hate to lose Hughes, but Joba and Kennedy will still work,,,Mussina will not…There’s still work to be done in that regard…..
Gene Michael also said he would never trade Nick Johnson, not on ‘his clock’.
The suits don’t listen to Gene Michael. He doesn’t know how to sell tickets.
Master Wangkee,
If you’re questioning Joba’s stamina you didn’t follow how he pitched in the minors this year.
Stamina is no issue for him at all. None. In fact stamina is a major strength of his.
Joba does not throw or “touch” 95+. He sits there. All game. In his longest outing of this past year he was hitting 97-98 with ease in his last inning of work.
Very, very few peole on the planet can do that. He has the same type of freakish arm strength and stamina Justin Verlander has.
That’s why if you stick him in as a closer you are wasting one of his greatest talents.
Also power pitchers with drop and drive mechanics often have very long productive careers because so much of their velocity comes from their legs – see roger clemens, nolan ryan, tom seaver, etc, etc. Joba has excellent drop and drive mechanics.
I don’t think we can easily find another Hughes in the draft. The rest of the league has figured out what the Yankees, Tigers and Red Sox have been doing by paying way over slot late in the first round. All teams are sitting on boatloads of money and drafting homegrown aces is cheaper than free agency.
“If the Twins keep Santana, he’s wearing pinstripes by November 2008. If he makes it all the way until July 2008 and is having a decent year, he’d be a fool not to hold out for free agency. If it’s only a matter of money, the Yankees will not be denied.” This is why everybody outside the Yankees family loathes your club. You have spoiled it for every baseball fan outside New York. If it weren’t for the Red Sox–who call you the Evil Empire but bid against you for every overpriced free agent–you would be the easiest professional club to hate. My Twins will happily take Phil Hughes, develop him into a Cy Young Award winner, and start him in Game 1 of the ALDS against Matt Garza and the Rays next Fall.
minnysota,
If I were the yanks, I’d think about sweetening up the deal if nathan were included. It’d be nice to have another rivera/wettles combo like in the glory days. that would be awesome. Especially if dave eiland can knock some sense into kyle farnsworthless and get him back on track, and the yanks sign ron mahay…our pitching could rival the sox. Imagine if Pettite resigns? Santana/Pettite/Wang/Chamberlain/kennedy. deal would be hughes/tabata/horne or sanchez/cabrera for santana/nathan. Or even making the deal better for the twins I don’t know, it’ll never happen but I like to think of different scenarios…aka pipe dreams, if nathan were included what would you want in return?
CB:
“Joba does not throw or “touch†95+. He sits there. All game. In his longest outing of this past year he was hitting 97-98 with ease in his last inning of work.”
In my view, unsustainable. Roger Clemens got away with it. Most big body hard throwers flame out. I think Joba can double his longevity by pitching as a closer and I highly doubt that nobody in the organzation would argue that point.
Pat M.,
Stick Michael did say he’d be willing to trade phil or kennedy for santana. He said it on espn radio this week with andrew marchand.
Also he was a part of the two day meeting the yankee executives held to decide whether to include phil.
I think he thought they should trade phil and won out over cashman.
CB:
I agree completely on the Joba’s stamina and how he should be in the rotation.
Putting that kind of talent in the pen would be a complete waste.
Putting Joba in the rotation is also a risk. There were strict joba rules for a reason. There’s a precedent. Let’s talk about the wall he hit in college and why he fell to the 2nd round. Let’s talk about that. Does everyone here know that joba fell to the second round? What were the scouts concerned about?
Wangkee,
They were concerned about injuries and his weight.
Master Wangkee,
You could not be more wrong. Scouts are constantly looking for power pitchers with large frames. That is the absolute ideal type they look for in drafting a pitcher.
At the start of the season Tim Lincecum quickly became the top pitching prospect in baseball – the one knock on him – his size. Look at the constant criticism/ concern that people have had for Roy Oswalt’s durability – his frame size. Same thing for pedro martinez. The list goes on and on.
I follow the baseball draft – large framed pitchers with powerful legs are the prototype for a high ceiling prospect.
And I’m not sure what you’re talking about with relievers – relief pitchers have terrible durability. Terrible. That’s why many people don’t think its worth investing alot of money in the pen – the pitchers don’t last.
To clarify my last post – Lincecum, Oswalt and Martinez are all pitchers with slender frames.
Greg,
While those are probably valid concerns, I think that the Yanks were more concerned about Joe Torre’s abuse of the bullpen arms than about an injury or his weight.
I thought the Joba rules were to protect Torre from over using Joba on short/no rest. It would be totally different for a SP since they will be getting their 5 days of rest.
As for Joba dropping to the second round, i believe it had to do with injury concerns as well as weight issues. He has dropped i think ~20 pounds since his signing, but I’m not sure what else has changed that would affect his injury proneness (I know thats not a word).
Greg C,
And the Yankees scouts believed that the innings totals started to catch up with him and he experienced a tired arm. Thus the Joba Rules. Next year he’ll be on the strictest pitch IP cap of any one of the Big 3. With Pettitte leaving, and at least 2 rookies, the Yankees need innings. That’s why I say sell-high on Joba. He’s viewed as a starter by most but if for some reason he should end up a closer, we’d be fleecing the Twins. We’d be trading a closer for an ace.
Yeah – i agree… his sub 1.25 era at the stadium is a fluke, plus it’s not like the yanks have the best offense in baseball… Oh wait a minute…
Tomy Gun,
As far as the “Joba Rules” you are right, that was because of Torre.
CB:
I’d be curious to see a list of career wins for pitchers and see how many more Maddux types there are on the list than Clemens type of pitchers.
Mike
You have the richest owner in sports and you hate on the Yankees because Steinbrenner doesn’t have cobwebs in his wallet. Hate on your owner for not caring enough about the team and the fans to invest in their success.
The Joba Rules were not ‘because of Torre’. Joba was on a strict innings cap in 2007 and will remain on one under Joe Girardi.
Surely we are not talking about baseball teams…
The Joba rules were institued for a few reasons:
1. Joba had never been a relief pitcher in his life. They wanted to be careful with him because a pitcher doesn’t know how his arm will react without the usual starter’s 5 days of rest.
2. Relief pitchers always say one of the ways their arms burn out is when they are asked to warm up multiple times during games. That’s why they made the rule if he warms up he comes in. also why he only started innings.
3. The yankees have very strict innings caps on all – all – of their high ceiling prospects. They are amongst the most cautious organizations with workload in baseball. They do this to avoid what happenned with kerry woods.
By the time they called up Joba he was getting to the end of his predetermined innings cap for the year.
IJWT: Trading for Joe Nathan to pitch the 8th is beyond sheer gluttony. The options we have in the bullpen are going to be similar to last year’s, plus the younger arms will be ready. Seriously, if you’ve watched enough baseball in your lifetime, you know how difficult it is to predict how a “veteran” middle reliever is going to do. You have to hope your youth works out…
..and by “youth,” I don’t mean “Edwar,” unless he’s learned a second pitch.
Minnysota: The Sox had Crisp because Ellsbury wasn’t ready. Now it’s a contract they’d rather not have, since Ellsbury is ready. It’s not a knock on him whatsoever.
We spent seven years being “one player away.” Yes, the old core is now aging. We’re no longer “one player away.” The newer core needs to be established and not traded away.
Thanks god there are still a few sensible posters awake tonight, but this sensible poster is now going to bed.
It is amazing that with the amount of righty talent we have, do we have any real lefty pitching talent.
Does anyone know the deadline of the deal?
CB:
I don’t disagree with 1, 2 and 3. I only add that the signicant dropoff in velocity from Soph to Junior year for Joba factors into the institution of the Joba Rules. There are no questions about his stuff. There are questions about staying healthy over long stretches. There are fears of Kerry Wood burnout because of the fact that both are big-bodied power pitchers.
Master Wangkee,
Do you understand that a closer’s value is NOTHING compared to that of a starter?
We had both Joba and Mo ready to close out games for us in the playoffs this year. Guess what? If you don’t have great starters (note that: great starters, not just good), you will not be in a position to use your closer.
Arguing that Joba should be a closer is ridiculous. Unless he PROVES that he cannot handle the load as a starter, it would be an absolutely idiotic decision on the part of the Yankees to make him a closer.
I have not heard a SINGLE good argument for why Joba should be a closer over a starter. There simply isn’t one.
this Hawaii game is worth my Saturday night
NY Times article says Yanks would like an answer by Monday but no deadline has been stated.
I think Kerry Wood’s mechanics had a lot to do with his injuries.
Master Wangkee,
You are the one who confidently stated the hypothesis that large bodied power pitchers burn out.
What is your evidence for this?
I told you what scouts look for in terms of durability.
Looking at a list of winnigest pitchers and trying to correlate their body size with that makes no sense because over the course of the past 117 years the average weight/ height of all americans increased significantly. This is particularlly true of athletes as people only started lifting weights systematically over the past 20-30 years.
however, the list of winnigest pitchers is diproportionately represented by pitchers from the earlier part of the 20th century as they regularly make many, many more starts per season.
It was your initial assertion so I’d be interested in seeing your evidence that contradicts what scouts look for.
Well to the deadline question, I think it’ll come when there is an NBC “The office” moment when Bill Smith is running from table to table at the nearest 5 star restaraunt where all the GMs are dining and telling them what all the other teams are giving up for his prize bull. Cut to Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman staring at each other with blank faces and a simultaneous “check please”….deal over
So it’s Hughes, Melky, and who?
Joba had triceps tendinitis as a junior. it was mild. they shut him down.
triceps tendinitis is not a big deal. at all. in the draft teams were overly cautious. good thing they were.
kerry wood had poor mechanics and dusty baker abused him awfully. that why he got hurt. he has nothing to do with joba.
PK:
I don’t disagree that Joba SHOULD start. In my view, I’m suggesting that he might ultimately become a closer and if that happens, we just passed up a chance to trade a closer for an ace.
They’re never going to trade Joba because he’s so popular and likeable. He was an instant hit out of the bullpen last year. My thought of dealing him has more to due with my long term view of him than of his ability/talent/peripherals/arsenal etc. etc.
e-roc,
the twins kept insisting the yankees include either horne or jackson as the third player!
the yankees refused and have made their final offer. They have told the twins that kennedy, horne, betances, jackson and tabata are untouchable with hughes in the trade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....ref=slogin
referring to the poster saying there is no way to project how a veteran middle reliever will do, i dont know who youre talking to but i dont think kyle farnsworth has the right mindset to succeed in ny. he was a hothead before he came here and with the fans on his back hes not getting any better
e-roc, no specification just a mid-level prospect, and the twinners want jackson or tabata supposedly, and would salivate if kennedy was included which is not happening.
I hope the yanks don’t make this move…wait this thing out, the red sox are not going to get him for all the stated reasons above, more pay than josh beckett, not the red sox way..etc..etc… see who else gets him, if its anyone else besides the sox, forget it who cares.
CB:
The harder you throw, the higher the likelihood of injury. If you repeat this physical exercise over 200 IP per season as opposed to just 100 IP, what do you hypothesize for a result?
CB
2 things:
1) the money the Sox laid down for Dice-K could not be luxo taxed and that’s different from whatevere they’d have to pay Santana
and
2) Stick only said he’d “consider” trading Hughes of Ian, not that he would or wouldn’t on the radio the other day.
the yanks, if they do make this deal, as suggested by kepner of the times, include alberto gonzalez in the deal, a SS. That fills up the hole in the Twins, he’s played major league ball and they get their prized hughes and consolation melky. If that happens, the yanks should begin grooming jackson and tabata for the bigs, and soon.
Hughes, Melky and Gonzalez should make the Twins happy. I think you’re right about grooming Jackson and Tabata ‘soon’. That outfield trio of Damon/Abreu/Matsui is old, inconsistent, overpaid and injury prone. I could see Jackson/Tabata seeing action in the 2nd half and Sardinha/Gardner/S. Duncan in the first half.
Master,
No that is not true. Sure if you only threw 100 innings over the course of the season with 4 days of regular rest in between it would be less stress.
But the whole point of why relief pitching is so stressful (see vizcaino’s dead arm in september) is because they don’t get regular rest. They pitch back to back days or even 3-4 days in a row without any rest. even if its only one inning at a time its very stressful.
And as I said before – one of the most stressful parts of relief pitching on the arm that fans don’t think about is all the time a pitcher warms up but doesn’t get into the game. That’s why relief pitcher’s derisively call that the “dry humps.”
I’ve sort of enjoyed this debate but honestly, you are just way, way, way off on this.
I would love Santana but at the cost of losing hughes and all the other prospects is crazy. Not to mention the 130 mil. Why not keep hughes and go after Kazmir? Hes a lefty who is younger, locked up cheaper and longer, and knows how to tear the redsox apart. We can keep Hughes and probably Melky and then look to send off one of the other outfielders and even giambi.
Thanx for the info, CB and Yanks Prospectus.
El Coma,
The two top lefties in the Yankee farm are Mike Dunn (A converted infielder) and Garret Patterson Both are more suited for the Bullpen though…
I don’t want to give up Hughes for anyone. The end.
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?
Ya, the Rays are going to jump all over Giambi and his $21 million contract. Doubt it.
How do you know Kazmir is even available? Based on the moves the Rays are making, they are trying to get better, not worse.
Sources: Red Sox offering Pedroia
By Buster Olney
Updated: December 2, 2007, 1:16 AM ET
Red Sox Up the Ante
According to sources the Boston Red Sox have included the American League Rookie of the Year in their trade package in order to pry Johan Santana away from the Twins.
The trade package, almost surely to put Boston as the frontrunners to acquire the two time Cy Young award winner, would include Pedroia, Jon Lester, and Coco Crisp as well as minor leaguer Jed Lowrie.
The scariest part for me is still the thought of Jonny Damon patrolling CF next season.
Phil,
I know there was no luxury tax, etc. I know that whole argument. But you are not remembering how absolutely floored all of baseball was when they paid $52 million of the posting fee.
There have been 3 or 4 $100 million dollar deals for pitchers. Whether it was luxury taxed or not, the red sox spent $103 million to sign Dice-K. Are you telling me that’s not a massive amount of money/ risk for a pitcher that never threw a major league pitch?
But the sox had to money to risk.
Also – that’s not what Stick said on the radio.
“During an interview on 1050 ESPN New York’s Max Kellerman Show, Kellerman asked Michael if he would be philosophically against putting either Hughes or Kennedy in a deal.
“I would think about it,” Michael said. “I would very seriously consider putting one of them in the deal.”
That’s about as explicit a public statement as you’ll get in the middle of trade talks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....NHeadlines
Honestly, I can’t wait for Abreu and Damon to go. They are past their prime and I think in the long run it hurts the club. We need some role players back on the team, not superstars. We’re all set at that department in our infield. We need speed and electricity in the outfield to get this team back to being excited about winning again. It started with Joba last year and another youngster fielder could do the trick. I can’t wait for this year actually. As long as we don’t go out there and screw up in the beginning and have to fight an uphill battle like last year, it should be an interesting year.
CB:
I understand the points you’re making and I don’t disagree with you. I think the team will keep Joba and they’ll try him out as a starter. We’ll see what happens with Joba in the future. But to sum up my concerns
1)He suddenly lost velocity in college and fell to the 2nd round.
2)Yankee scouts were smart enough to realize he wasn’t injured but just maybe had a tired arm aka durability issues.
3)Joba Rules were strict and his IP cap will remain strict in 2008
4)He’s a big-bodied power pitcher.
I just feel he has a better chance to become Bobby Jenks than Roger Clemens. I hope I’m wrong. They won’t trade him so I guess we’ll find out. There are bigger problems in the world of course.
baseball was floored cause they know the Sox to be sort of tight with a buck, but the sox hadn’t even made the playoffs and were on the edge of oblivion when they made their bold move to stay relevant.
btw, who dummied up the Olney report? Looks pretty close.
Boston is trying toget the Yankees to add Cano to the deal now…Hank please just say no and move on with the kids…Please!!!!
Dustin Pedroia?!
Wow.
If Boston added Pedroia to Lester, the Yanks should counter with Cano + Kennedy.
Crisp is a non-factor in this deal.
The Twins would have to decide between Cano or Pedroia and Kennedy or Lester.
kids, it’s a fake report.
bad report, I fell for someone else linking it without actually clicking on the link. Sorry guys.
just want to say the Olney report is BS no link and not a word of it on ESPN
Boston is INSANE–If that report is true, the Yankees should walk away and go after somebody else. And that ”somebody” should not be Dan Haren.
I’m sad to see Phil go but am I the only person who thinks that Horne could make use forget about Hughes, especially if Santana produces well in the Bronx?
y’know what? if minnesota prefers pedroia and lester to hughes and cabrera, what are you gonna do?
i guess that answers the question of whether boston is serious or not. they mean business.
god bless ‘em, i guess. theo and co are willing to do what it takes to win and, if they’ve got santana and beckett going together, the likelihood that they win is pretty hight.
time for cashman to put his final offer on the table and say, “take it or leave it.”
Ah it’s fake. I am very gullible this time of night…
Phil,
My point was this – i boston floored baseball last winter with Dice-K they could very well do it again with Santana and $150 million.
There is a precedent for spending a very surpisingly large amount of money for strategic reasons people didn’t see right away.
not everything on the internet is real!
fake report or not, i stand by my point. the way this is going, minnesota’s going to start demanding a package containing hughes and cano or hughes and kennedy or whatever.
time for cashman and co. to decide on an offer, make it, and tell minnesota to take it or leave it. if you can find a better offer, great. if not, enjoy your draft picks. we’ll just sign johan in 12 months without losing anyone.
I’m a big fan of Horne, but I don’t think he’ll make anybody forget about Hughes. Horne would make me forget about IPK, but not Hughes.
CB,
nah, they’re too cheap to, and they no longer have a fan base that’s pissed at them for dropping 5 at home to the Yanks and doing it with Bobby Abreu, who the Sox were too cheap to acquire.
Horne is terrific. They’ll need him this year.
He’s not even close to hughes.
sounds pretty final to me Kasey
at this point i’m hoping the twins will keep santana becasue they’re too scared to deal him and they get stuck with the draft picks next year when the yankees sign him for $175 million or whatever he gets on the open market.
If they don’t deal him by the time the season starts it’ll be tough to get santana to agree to pass up his chance to hit the market when he’s so close.
I think the Sox putting Bucholz in is just to get the Yanks to include Kennedy. Hopefully we don’t do it. I wish I had more faith in that though. The problem is that the Sox are dealing from a position of immediate strength for the upcoming season because they already have a number one and we don’t. Hopefully the Yankee FO has enough balls to let this one go if that’s what it takes and hopefully make some big signings with (if they don’t sign extensions) Peavy, Sabathia, Bonderman, Sheets, Prior, Penny, and Lackey all hitting the market after this season. At least two or three of those guys will make it to free agency.
“god bless ‘em, i guess. theo and co are willing to do what it takes to win”
WTF does that mean. Just because Cashman wont offer, Hughes, Joba, and Cano he doesn’t want to win?
Hopefully the Yankee FO has enough balls to let this one go if that’s what it takes and hopefully make some big signings with (if they don’t sign extensions) Peavy, Sabathia, Bonderman, Sheets, Prior, Penny, and Lackey all hitting the market after this season. At least two or three of those guys will make it to free agency.
Excellent point. I didn’t know all of those were available. Makes me want to hold on to Hughes and let the the Sox get Santana, let them have the glory again this year and then with the new stadium opening up, make it a first year stadium world series with the rotation of peavy, sabathia, sheets, hughes, and kennedy with joba and mariano providing the set em up and knock em out roles. lol, never happening but again, i love to dream.
“WTF does that mean. Just because Cashman wont offer, Hughes, Joba, and Cano he doesn’t want to win?”
glad to see you completely missed the point of everything i’ve posted today. keep up the good work!
its come to the point where we’re always in competition with redsox for whatever good player become available . I hope cashman realizes there are 13 other teams in Al that we need to compete against also, thats y maybe we haven;t won a ws.QQ
Once Joba wins the RoY and Cy this year, all of the clamoring for his return to the bullpen will end. Damnit.
Some of us havent spent 16 hours on the computer to read everything Kasey has to utter every 5 minutes
Gonna pretend to sleep. Someone email me if anything gets finalized between, I dunno, now and eleven AM!
” i thought peter gammons was a professional but to bash the yankees who practically saved baseball in the late 90s is unfair. behind the yankees payroll is who else, his red sox. stop whining old man”
read the article…he is talking about the disparity between the top 5 teams in terms of payroll against the rest of the league basically not being able to compete for anyone on the yanks, mets SOX, angels, dodgers, etc radar…he speaks of how the yanks have to win in a city like nyc so spending that kind of money is a must, and he simply breaks it down, he never cries and says it is unfair to thier most heated rivals, the yanks and in a unique position with going over the salary cap and the luxury tax money being able to be poured into the construction of their new stadium instead of that of the other 32 teams (as the sox have to do, despite renovations to their park, he doesnt mention this mind you, and if his point was to bash the yanks spending vs. the sox he would have) and they can essentially pour that money into the construction of thier stadium, thus not really paying the luxary tax at all…
it was about the big spending of the top 5, not yankees bashingg, stop looking for problems where there arent any
Yanks Prospectus- that’s true, but all we need to get is one of those guys, we also have Wang in that rotation. I’d say Lackey isn’t making it to free agency, but the rest are good bets to make it. I’d be happy with any one of the other guys added to our rotation, plus we’d have the big three another year older with a full season of experience to add to their resume. We should be able to tell after this year which ones are ready to produce. Those are a lot of number ones who will become available. Santana is great, no doubt, but one number one is as good as the next. It’s coming to a point where it seems that the immediate need for starting pitching may be being overvalued- as unbelievable as that seems. I like a guy like Sheets or Peavy being added. Tough guys who don’t come with the pressure of being saviors. I don’t even think the Yankee business model depends on winning next year since every game in the final year of the Stadium will be sold out. Or close to it. That’s not even a question.
“Some of us havent spent 16 hours on the computer to read everything Kasey has to utter every 5 minutes”
enough reading comprehension to figure out just one of the posts would be a start. but i’m sure you’re far too busy for that.
ugh.
That is all I have to say.
ryan,
give me a break. peter gammons is such a red sox homer it’s unbelievable. if the red sox were to acquire santana, you would not hear a single thing about the “rich getting richer.” he’s a hypocrite and a homer, and i don’t understand why he doesn’t just write for the globe.
Is that Pedroia report a fake?
i thought peter gammons was a professional but to bash the yankees who practically saved baseball in the late 90s is unfair. behind the yankees payroll is who else, his red sox. stop whining old man……………………………….
As far as I remeber Sammy Sosa and mark did that.
Speaking of ESPN, I like how Les Miles called out Kirk Herbstreit and those clowns for reporting miss information, which they have a habit of doing far too often.
sammy sosa and mark mcgwire are also responsible for the greatest problem in baseball right now, not fully responsible but they were the first to break records on the stuff. as for gammons, i do not read his blog but the portion posted on this blog only had anti yankee points
I’m a Twins fan from Mpls, just reading this information. As a Twins fan, we just acquired AAA CF prospect Pridie from TBAY in the Delmon Young deal, and we really need a 3B, and SS in my opinion. The other guy we got from Tampa is a ss/2b guy who hit 12 homers. I would assume he plays 2B. I’m pretty sure we will trade Nathan since he will end up with 13-15 million after making 6mill in 08 so I would hope we look at perhaps packaging Johan and Joe.
good luck trying to package johan and nathan f14
Red Sux got Beckett under the radar and are paying him peanuts compared to what Santana wants. Yanks are getting taken avantage of because everyone knows when the Yanks want a player they get them no matter what it costs(money/prospects). As a fan I’d love to see Santana in pinstripes but it might be time to set a president and say ,ya know what let’s go with what we got and see where it takes us. IMO it will lead to less pricey/better acquisitions down the road. From a business standpoint Santana sells tickets and merch. but as a fan I just want to see a good team (25 players not one).Maybe we don’t win it all next year but with the better free agency market for the end of 2008 looking more rewarding than this years, why not chance it and hold out. Our vererans have at least 2 maybe 3 more years before they are over the hill.
I’m assuming anyone who trades for Santana or Nathan (or both) signs them 1st.
-SP-
Santana
Wang
Chamberlain
Kennedy
Pettitte/Mussina/Kids
-RP-
Farnsworth/Kids
Vizcaino
Nathan
Rivera
-Offense and Field-
Takes a few steps back without Cano and Melky’s skills and passion…but we focus on defense/speed for 2B and CF.
Don’t think this looks like a sweet October for the next 2-3 years?
I meant “Don’t you think this looks like a sweet October for the next 2-3 years?” I think it does.
you’re not getting nathan and johan together. move on to other schemes, please.
I LOVE BOBCAT. welcome back. boston would be stupid to outbid the hughes offer. if they do, let’s go at them with wang, joba, hughes, chamberlain, and horne. bring it.
love the enthusiasm, reasons, but joba and chamberlain are the same guy. i’m assuming you meant kennedy there.
JT from NYC
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:09 am
I thought the Joba rules were to protect Torre from over using Joba on short/no rest. It would be totally different for a SP since they will be getting their 5 days of rest.
As for Joba dropping to the second round, i believe it had to do with injury concerns as well as weight issues. He has dropped i think ~20 pounds since his signing, but I’m not sure what else has changed that would affect his injury proneness (I know thats not a word).
_________________________________________________
People need to seriously get off of this “Joba Rules” were instituted to keep Torre from “abusing Chamberlain” kick. Nardi Contreras and Gil Patterson instituted these guidelines for system wide use. Every manager and every toung pitcher coming into the system falls under this. It was not to protect Chamberlain from Torre. Much of this comes from Gil Patterson. Patterson was the “Phil Hughes of the mid-late 1970′s for the Yankees. He signed as a teenager with NYY and a Guidry type slider, and a fastball that was nearly Chamberlain’s equal. Toss in a big curve and a changeup. He was abused badly. 8 arm operations. He’s the one that resurected the careers of Al Leiter and Roy Halliday. Here’s a couple of interesting articles on him.
http://www.worldwidebaseballpr.....terson.php
http://www.worldwidebaseballpr.....-press.php
The second article is the best.
We absolutely need to get Santana with the new package offered. NYT is reporting Monday is the deadline.
Hughes might become Santana, but Santana already is Santana and is just starting prime pitching years.
What new package do u propose, Phil?
If the yankees pitching staff wasn’t so inconsistent this season, perhaps trading Phil wouldn’t be that eventful.
The idea that we can get a bonafide lefty Ace already in the AL(no adjustment needed from the NL) is a huge GET for the Yankees.
Bobcat said think like a GM. Yankee resigned Posada,Mo,
Alex and sbreu,eventually they would have to trade someone to aquire a player,Santana is worth the trade.ll ballplayers want to play for the Yankees,the Yankees may get them back someday,who knows.
Can you imagine the effect Santans will have on the bull pen?All those young newbies in the penasking questions etc..
Even Mo will be at his best,with all this hype about Santana,he won’t be out done.
Hughes, Cabrera, and second-tier prospect is currently on the table.
Two post and already typos,I’m not woke yet,it’s apparent.
I say that Cashman should call Theo’s and Smith’s bluff and draw the line at Hughes and Melky.
The Red Sox are not serious about getting Santana or they would have offered Ellsbury or Buchholz. Theo will not part with them, so that’s it.
If the Twins want more from the Yanks, they can keep Santana and try to win with him and Liriano in that rotation.
No more screwing around. It’s time to sh!t or get off the pot. I’m completely against this deal in the first place so it’s probably easier for to want to play hardball than others who are proponents of it.
Don’t be surprised if the Twins end up keeping him and going to battle next season.
E-ROC, if the Twins come up with more demands, NYY will end the discussions and walk away. Right now, the only deal is Hughes, Cabrera and Gonzales. Gonzales is a totally replaceable part. He’s a glove..a utility infielder on a contending team, maybe a starter for the Twins, but, Casilla is better. Cabrera can be replaced with little trouble. Gardner is probably a better fielder, certainly faster and an ideal number 9 hitter. Hughes hurts, but, not as much as a combination of Kennedy, Horne and Cabrera would.
IF Hughes, Melky, and Gonzalez is the deal(I hope the Twins accept), I think the Twins will hold on to Santana. I just hope the Yankees don’t go after Dan Haren, if the Santana deal fails.
No real reason to go after Haren. He’d cost as much as Santana, and, he’s not worth that.
I do think the Yankees need an innings eater since Pettitte is retiring and youngsters being on innings cap.
Statistics tell the story. Go to google and enter ESPN baseball stats Johan Santana. Go to his split stats and then his 2005-2007 stats. Interesting data. Two of his worst ERA’s are against the Blue Jays [7.44] and the Orioles[5.68], teams we face 18-19 times a season! In the 2 games pitched at Yankee Stadium his ERA was 1.29 with a .220 BA against. He’s only pitched one game at Fenway over those 3 years lasting 6 innings with a 3.60 ERA and .300 BA against.
He hasn’t been an ace against the Angels [3.80] or the Indians [3.64], especially at their stadiums. If you want to take the time, compare him to other desirable lefties, Erik Bedard or Scott Kazmir.
Since we would have a difficult time getting Kazmir or Bedard [ in our division and young,cheap stars would cost us even more], I’m now of mind that getting Santana, a lefty, is our best option, even if it costs hopefully not more than 20-22M/year for an extension.
I hate giving up Hughes, and the loss of Cabrera, a switch hitting defensive star with more upside potential stings, but if the Yankees don’t need to give up more than an Alberto Gonzalez type, I think they should make the deal, knowing that both sides made out well [ the Twins in the long run probably better, but for the next 4-5 years, we would have a chance to make the playoffs, and with an ace, get through the first round [5 games] in the playoffs.
As for Dan Haren, would not give up Hughes, because Hughes has the same body build, is younger, and has the same velocity and pitches as Haren, with much more upside.
In a way, I can see the Twins position.
Melky is good,but there are some holes in his game. For someone with limited power, he strike out an awful lot and walks very little 68k’s vs 48bb’s in ’07) .His on base percentage last year was only .327
He has good speed,but nothing spectacular. In 286 games he has 25 stolen bases.
The Twins are looking to trade their biggest chip. They HOPE that Phil Hughes develops into a stud. But they are pretty certain that what their getting in Melky is what they currently see. A good,but not great player.
If they are going to trade one of the 2 or 3 best pitchers in baseball, you can see why the Twins would want another very good prospect included in the deal. Put yourself in a Twins fan’s seat. You’d want more too, I think.
Drive 4-5
I do see the Twins position. They would now have one of the best defensive outfields in the game with Delmon Young, Cuddyer and Cabrera. Hughes and Liriano would still be a good, and eventually great 1-2 punch. The bullpen is strong, unless you lose Nathan. You’re moving into a new stadium. You’re owner, one of the richest in the US, but stingiest with his money might eventually give your stars-Morneau and Mauer good contracts to keep them.
If you want an Austin Jackson, Alan Horne, thrown in, then let’s talk about expanding the trade, let’s say the Twins throw in Pat Neshek.
Deal or No Deal!!
Morning all. Very interesting read from today’s Daily News. Bill Madden interview with Hank. Also something in there that Tino fans will like to read.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ml?ref=rss
I knew that once the Yankees offered Hughes, the twins would then go right back to the Red Sox to see what they could shake out of them. It is the logical thing to do. I dont blame the Minnesota GM; a 5 year old knows how to play his parents against one another.
The question today is whether the Red Sox will offer up more. The reason there is no announced deal is because the Sox are trying to come up with something else palatable to the twins or whether they will give up elsbury.
If the sox do either of the above, the twins will then go back to the yankees and see what else they can get.
The No trade clause means nothing. It is clear that Santana could give a rats ass about playing for the Yankees. He just wants his cash (nothing the matter with that but that nonsense about him having a love for the Yankees is bs spouted by an anonymous poster)
Also it is clear now that there is no imaginary list that the twins are picking from.
We’ll see how it turns out…my guess is it doesn’t get done anytime soon. The Twins will demand more from the yankees
Setting the scene:
Santana’s off of the table…He’s a Yankee
Tonight, in Nashville, everybody’s there…Cashman’s staring daggers at Bill Smith and Theo Epstein (Cashman thinks about that vial of arsenic that he has is the shirt pocket of his polo shirt)
Billy Beane stands up and says, “Hey, guys…how about having a poker tournament up in my suite, tonight. I’ll supply the refreshments and the cards.
All 29 GMs (Hank Steinbrenner is banned from the game by Cashman and sent to his room…punishment for mouthing off) stand and yell in unison, “What a great idea, Billy. Count me in.”
Fast Forward to 9:00 PM
Billy has some topless waitresses serving drinks (Cashman’s thinking, “Damned…Steve Swindal would love this.” Four tables are set up for the guys to play in a runoff. Billy’s not playing right now. He’s just enjoying going from table to table peeking at everybody’s cards.
One by one, the players are eliminated. There’s a squabble at one of the tables. Beane runs over to check the trouble out. Mike Flanagan (Balt) says, “Billy, this clown (pointing to Brian Sabean (SF)says that a 4 of a kind beats a Straight Flush). Beane looks at Flanagan’s cards and says, “Mike after all of these years, you still can’t play poker. You ain’t even got a pair. Get out of here.” Brian, take a hike. I told you no cheating. How’d that Joker get in your hand…the one with a picture of Barry Bonds? Beat it.”
Billy stops off to check out Nick Colletti’s cards. Billy gives Nick a wink and a smile, and says, “Hey Nicky. I hear you just got a new teacher for your nursery school in LA.” Nick says, “Yeah. Nice guy. High recommendations. I just met him. Name is Joe…eerrr..uhhh…can’t remember the last name. Big Italian guy, though. I think he’s connected, if you know what I mean.”
The games start dwindling down to just the best poker players, now. four or five sitting around the table. Billy sets down and says, “You guys mind if I sit in? This isn’t something that I’m good at, gambling. Only played a couple of times. Help yourselves to more FREE refreshments. Everybody reloads their drinks. Billy sits down and says, “I guess since I’m the host tonight, I’ll deal the cards so ya’ll can relax.” Billy pulls out his green visor cap and puts it on…the one with the big “A’s” on it, and adjusts his arm bands.
The remaining player watches as Billy fans the deck of cards, spreads ‘em out and starts the one hand shuffle. He’s so fast that nobody realizes that while he’s shuffling and dealing out the cards, he’s picking everybody’s pocket. Theo Epstein says, “Billy, I thought you said that you never played cards.” Billy says, Theo, you weren’t listening. I never said I didn’t play cards. I said that I never GAMBLED.” There’s a difference.” Billy smiled as he dealt out the last of the marked card to himself.
I’d rather save Hughes (13-15 wins this season??), Melky (.280/10-15/.380), and Austin Jackson or whoever else they’re going to throw in, and the $20mil/year.
Santana is amazing. The future, however, is brighter than any star.
someone overnight compared Horne to Hughes/IPK. i’m under the impression that Horne’s 3-4 years older. what’s kept him on the “slower” track, and is that anyone’s concern within the Yankees?
let’s NOT expand the deal.
Yankee Trader,
I’m just trying to be objective. I’d love for the deal to happen with just Hughes, Melky and Attorney General Gonzalez.
The Twins picked up Jason Pridie,a very good center field prospect in the Delmon Young trade. Pridie is 24 and could be comparable to Melky in another year or 2. It would be different if Melky had more power.
Young is not a very good defender. He made 7 errors last year and had a paltry .954 fielding % in center and .985 in right. The problem is, he’s too young to be a DH. The Twins really need a 3rd baseman and are thinking about moving Cuddyer there.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the Twins to want a Horne or Jackson. As Yankee fans we would expect more if the shoe were on the other foot.
The Yankees need to ask themselves if they have a replacement in their system for whoever the 3rd prospect is.If they think the deal hurts them in long run,they then need to come to terms with the fact that they are going to be competing with the Red Sox in ’08 with a pitching staff that is lacking a legitimate ace. Also, if Pettitte does retire, then their #2 would likely be someone that is currently a prospect.
I’m glad I’m sitting here enjoying my coffee and not the one making this decision!
Horne has four quality pitches, including a big fastball. He was slowed by school and elbow surgery (transplant). He’s fully recovered and will move fast. Needs to sharpen his control a bit, but, it’s coming along pretty good.
NYY has no 3rd basemen ready yet, but, they are coming. Only one possible is Eric Duncan.
Horne supposedly doesn’t have the control that Hughes and IPK have.
Alan Horne, who pitched AA Trenton will be 25 y.o. in January, and should not be included in the deal.
As far as this poker game goes, it’s time to call the Twins bluff, and if necessary, just fold and move on to the next hand.
GB 7 -
Eric Duncan hasn’t progressed as hoped. Keep an eye on Mitch Hilligoss. He’s called a young Nettles. He could be at AA Trenton this year after starting the year at A Tampa.
If the Sox up the ante (I am beginning to think they will) the yanks will most likely have to give Horne up to make the deal happen
Yankee Trader,
What cards are you expecting to get in the next hand?
Keith, I never said he had. All that was asked is if NYY had a 3rd baseman that could be dealt, and Duncan is it, unless the wins wanted Betemit.
What scares me more than giving up an Austin Jackson for Santana is having to give up Phil Hughes for Dan Harren. Harren,while good, is not Johan Santana. Harren is the same age as CM Wang and has a career record of 49 -44 with an ERA of 3.86. Wang’s record is 48 – 18 with a 3.74 ERA. Is Harren the legitimate “ace” that Wang is not?
Drive 4-5
You’re right, Young had 7 errors in 2007, but he had 16 assists in the outfield, which in the AL probably leads for RF’ers. From the Yankees perspective, you don’t give up the farm to sign an Ace to the richest pitching contract in baseball history, that in the AL East “Beast” will not guarantee a playofff positon or a World series ring, even if it improves the odds.
guys, it’s totally off topic but I’m considering some vacations in new York in march/april 2008 and i would like to get a couple of Yankees games in the old stadium… Does any of you know if the 2008 schedule is already released or when it’s gonna be?
Keith, defensively, at third, Hilligoss is no Nettles, more like a young Boggs. NYY is contemplating moving to 2nd base. Offensively, think Boggs with speed but not as patient. With a slight adjustment in the swing, think Mattingly. I thought he’d be perfect for first base, now that Suttle and Baird are here and Sublett and Cano are aahead of him (Sublett at A Ball Charleston ib ’08).
Felipe,
The schedule has not been released. I do konw they are plaing the Red Sox at home over the 4th of July weekend.
Drive 4-5:
I believe Hughes would be off the table in a deal for Haren. The only way Hughes is going is if we get Santana in return
Sorry for the typos. I need more coffee!
ok, thanks drive 4-5!
http://www.startribune.com/twi.....85906.html
Interesting article.
It makes no sense to re-sign necessary parts like A-Rod, Jorge, Mo, Jose Molina, and possibly Vizcaino and just close the door and go to battle.
It’s like buying a new Jaguar without power door locks. Do the entire package. Get Santana.
Bobcat and SJ44 make a correct case in saying the farm system is healthy and vibrant. It’s not like giving up good prospects is the end of the world. There’s more on the way unlike Boston who would find themselves suddenly dry in near ready prospects after dealing Lester and Buchholz.
Draw a line in the sand with Minnesota and say let’s get this done sooner than later. Brian Cashman is busy trying to strengthen the bullpen and it leaves the team with just one thing to do and feel right and confident going into a new season. Do it !!
Drive 4-5
There are other Aces out there who might be had.
Lefties Sabathia, Kazmir and Bedard all younger than Santana, and if the Orioles and Rays would trade within the division, I’d consider throwing in another top prospect.
Then ther’s Jake Peavy and Roy Oswalt in the NL, especially 26 y.o.Peavy, even though a righty, that’s worth the sacrifice.
If we get Santana, sure I’ll be happy. If the Red Sox get him, let them deal with the loss of future stars- the Yanks played the Red Sox even last year, even with their poor first half. This team, if they stay healthy, and can improve the bullpen, should do real well, based on their second half record with the addition of Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Duncan, Molina.
I am very wary of trading for National League pitchers. After going 15 -11 5.11 in his first year, Beckett has made the transition. Other than him and a younger Pedro, I can’t remember the last National League pitcher that pitched equally as well in the AL.
E-ROC
December 2nd, 2007 at 9:14 am
http://www.startribune.com/twi.....85906.html
Interesting article.
_________________________________________________
More BS. The only thing different or interesting about that article is that the idiot spelled everyone’s name correctly., this time.
Vince,
I agree with you. Have faith in our farm system. Be proud that it’s deep enough to sustain the hit.
Vince:
You’re right to a point. The yankees are about being competitive; the signings of Rodriguez, Posada and Mariano were not necessarily done knowing that we could get Santana 2 weeks later , we needed them just to be in the game.
We have an opportunity to get a legitimate ace so of course it has to be explored.
Our minor league system is strong but we cant gut it just on Santana. You have to assume that once we get Santana the Red Sox will get either Haren, Sheets or someone else.
If we have to give up Hughes, Cabrera, Horne/Kennedy/ jackson/Tabata to make the Santana deal we would have weakened farm system and the Sox would still be the odds on favorite to repeat as AL East winners. Once again this assumes that the Sox get another pitcher if we get Santana (I think they will)
From the Yankee perspective if thats the way this thing shakes out we’ll need to make another deal and now we have fewer prospects. The next deal will completely gut the system and now we are in the same position we were in 04. Sox still a better team (they still have Bucholz, pedroia, beckett, matsuzaka and Haren)
We have Santana and maybe some other pitcher but no farm system to speak of an we’re not better than the sox let alone guaranteed to get to te WS.
In that scenario the Yankees would be better off keeping the prospects…we’re still not as good but at least we have flexibility in the future and who knows maybe the Red Sox turn into the Cowboys of the mid 90s. When they got Sanders from the Cowboys and paid him all that money they sowed the seeds to their eventual destruction.
Alright Right now I’m annoyed with the Twins, just like the Angels are with the Marlins. We throw in our top prospect Phil Hughes to compliment the Package with Melky Cabrera and Alberto Gonzalez, and now they want more. If I’m cashman right now I’m leaving and looking at bedard or haren.
why do people keep mentioning Kazmir? has there been a single report that he is available? anything?
the Rays jus added payroll to sign Percival, they added a solid starter by trading from their depth of OFers.
the Rays are looking to compete NOW. in 2008.
they have absolutely ZERO incentive to trade Kazmir and absolutely ZERO intention of dealing with the Yankees.
there is no point even talking about him.
“As for Dan Haren, would not give up Hughes, because Hughes has the same body build, is younger, and has the same velocity and pitches as Haren, with much more upside.”
That makes no sense. Haren just finished a excellent season with a 3.07 ERA. His upside is to improve upon that. Hughes upside is to have seasons like the one Haren just had.
I would try to avoid Giving up Hughes for Haren too, however that will not happen, Billy Beane will make us pay for Haren.
GreenBeret7:
Why can’t the article be true. Just bc you and I don’t want it to be true has no bearing on it whatsoever.
I hope it isn’t true…but its obvious all bets are off in this thing…no one knows for sure how it will shake out.
the one thing we do know…the twins want a better package from the yankees than Hughes, Cabrera and a b level prospect. They are trying to get it right now
Keep in mind the value of Haren to the Yankees is far less than what a Santana can bring.
First off the Yankees have a wealth of solid RHP prospects they don’t need to add another (Haren), the incremental beneift of Haren over someone like Hughes or Kennedy would likely be negligible.
Second, consider the park that Haren pitches in. It is a notoriously good pitchers park, lots of fouls are turned into outs. Contrast that with Yankee stadium. This is a park that favors LH hitters with the short porch.
Haren is a solid starter- but he is not the ace the Yankees covet.
“the Yankees are able to obtain Santana, they will be a contender. If not, not.”- bobcat
what kind of nonsense is that? no matter what happens with santana, the yankees will of course be a contender.
in a worse case scenario if santana went to the red sox, the yankees would have the resources to improve also. in that scenario, the red sox would have shot their wad and would not be able to up the ante in any further trades the yankees would be interested in. the yankees would get more for less in trades without the red sox in the picture
it is a myth that great pitching always beats great hitting. great pitching is just one part of the game. good pitching and great hitting can beat great pitching and good hitting.
the yankees presently have a throw away position at first base that they could upgrade tremendously if they choose to.
they have a bullpen that they could dramatically upgrade .
they could beat a santana/ beckett red sox with an allstar first baseman and a league leading bullpen.
there are always responses to rival team player additions. one player doesn’t guarantee anything. the game is played on the field. the ball bounces funny and injuries happen. no great team depends on the health or success of one player.
OK, so how about a three way trade with Minnesota and Oakland?
Yankees get Haren, Santana and one of Nathan-Street.
Yankees give up Melky-Hughes-Kennedy-Igawa-Horne-Jackson.
That is all.
“someone overnight compared Horne to Hughes/IPK. i’m under the impression that Horne’s 3-4 years older. what’s kept him on the “slower†track, and is that anyone’s concern within the Yankees?”
———————————————————
I compared Horne to IPK… NOT Hughes.
Written in March 2006.
Strengths: Horne is a mature pitcher that knows how to get outs on days he doesn’t feature his best stuff. His best offering a heavy 92-95 mph fastball that he does a good job of keeping in the bottom third of the zone. He works off his fastball with a hammer curveball that bites hard and down in the zone. Horne’s curve can be unhittable if he’s getting it over the plate consistently. He learned a cut fastball from Chipola JC pitching coach Jeff Johnson (a long-time family friend), and can now throw it for strikes on a consistent basis.
Weaknesses: Horne’s health hasn’t been perfect; in addition to Tommy John surgery, he also missed all but 1 start of Florida’s CWS run with a hamstring injury. His changeup is rudimentary and needs improvement if it’s going to become reliable. He’s improving his ability to throw strikes, but he still has plenty of room for improvement with his control (4.37 BBper9 at Florida). Horne also needs to continue to smooth out his mechanics and work on his ability to hold runners.
He had a very good year in 2007, with a 10.5/9 K rate. His issue is command, and this along with TJ surjury and a hammy injury has kept him back. He is more about ‘stuff’, while IPK is about command and composure. He kind of falls into the ‘higher risk/higher upside’ category. However, 2007 was somewhat a ‘breakthrough’ season, and his rating jumped up quite a bit.
Having a ‘heavy 92-95 mph fastball that he does a good job of keeping in the bottom third of the zone … and a Curve that can be unhittable’ is good stuff… if he learns to get them over the plate with better command.
yeah Thurman, if that happened and we lost all of our youngsters not goign to happen!!!!!!!!!!.
“Yankees get Haren, Santana and one of Nathan-Street.
Yankees give up Melky-Hughes-Kennedy-Igawa-Horne-Jackson.”
so, we already know the Twins’ asking price for Santana is Hughes, Melky, and Jackson.
now the Yankees are supposed to get Haren AND Street for Kennedy, Horne, and IGAWA??
I see that the Sox have put Bucholtz on the table (in lieu of Lester). I’m assuming that the Twins would prefer Bucholtz over Lester, so I guess that ups the ante.
A couple of points;
(1) A Santana deal to either Boston or the Yankees absolutely shifts the balance of power in the AL. It makes the Yankees the favorite if they get him, and the Red Sox become a prohibitive favorite if they get him. Within that context, the Yankees cannot afford to “walk away.”
(2) I join all of those posters who are speculating on the depth of the Red Sox pockets, as well as their willingness to commit $150 million on Santana. But, as has been mentioned on this blog, no one expected a $51 million posting fee for Matsuzaka. My sense is that they are loaded, and can readily match the Yankees’ $200 million payroll if they so desire. It’s possible that they still feel some loyalty to Bud Selig, who steered the franchise to the Henry Group in return for fiscal restraint. But I doubt it.
(3) The talk about renegotiating with Beckett is silly. Did the Yankees restructure Wang’a contract to bring him nearer to Mussina, or Pettite (or even Farnsworth)? This is a non-factor, except with respect to re-signing him when his contract expires. Beckett understands that the Red Sox deal was very fair in light of his production to that point. It’s a non-issue.
I still feel that the Sox are not bluffing, and they see this as a kill shot. They are $60 million/annum below the Yankees payroll, and will willingly close that gap if they judge that the action is worth it. Obviously, that’s just my opinion …. but remember, this is NOT the John Harrington-run trust. John Henry knows about spending money to make money – he has no intention of being a “bookmark” owner.
As a Sox fan, I feel that the Yankees would be doing us a favor if they pass up the chance to get Santana. You’re willing to swallow the camel but you’re balking at a few straws. If you look at the big picture, I quote the Eagles, “We may lose, and we may win, but we’ll never be here again.” Carpe diem …. but I hope you don’t!
In various articles, the Yankees seem to have some interest in Haren. I guess the Yankees are under Haren’s spell because of the one great season he had.
Brian, I’m sure the kick-back that Selig got for steering that deal made up for his efforts.
I hope no one responds to Brian. He is a Red Sox fan trying to bait us into talking about how great the Soz are.
IGNORE HIM He will go away
As disliked as Gammons is to many, he suggests that his Sox would need to re-work Beckett’s contract with a Santana deal. Beckett has 2 years left of the contract he signed in ’06.
In essence, a not so happy Beckett negates a Santana deal and takes money away from the arbitration eligible Papelbon and Youkilis coming up at the end of ’08
Prediction: Boston will fold their cards and make an attempt with Haren and try to get away with throwing Crisp in on the deal.
I’m just trying to be objective…. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the Twins to want [Huhjes, Melky and] a Horne or Jackson. Hughes, Melky and Attorney General Gonzalez.
——————————————————
All things being equal, on a value basis, you are correct. However, all things aren’t equal. Look what the Phillies got for Abreu… not even 1/5th of his value. Why? Abreu was expensive and had a NT clause. When looking at Santana’s value, you cannot ignor his wanting ‘something like 6/$150′. That is a sick contract that eliminates all but a few teams. Add his NT clause to that, and the field is very narrow. If Andy were coming back, I don’t think the Yanks would have even offered Phil.
Considering all the circumstances, the Twins are not that far away from getting 2 draft picks for Santana. We are ‘desparate’ for an Ace, but the Twins are also desparate for at trade. I don’t think the Sox are serious, but who knows? If they weren’t in it, they would get IPK, Melky, and 2 2nd tier prospects at best.
ARod, Jetes, Mo, Po, JD and Matsui cost $103m. Add Santana, thats $128m. That’s for SEVEN guys. We need 18 more. Cano will be costing $10m+ soon. You can not say that money is not an issue. Carl Pohlad is worth almost 3 billion. Rich owners does not mean an unlimited player budget.
Brian
Twins want Bucholz IN ADDITION to Lester or they want Ellsbury from what I’ve read this morning. Taking Lester from the package upped nothing.
I’m going Hughes, Melky, Horne to make this official. I’m also doing it before tomorrow.
According to MLBTR, the last prospect CANNOT be Alan Horn, Austin Jackson, Dellin Betances, Ian Kennedy, or Jose Tabata round out the five that they will not include as the third player.
Who should the Yankees go after if the Santana deal doesn’t get done?
East Side yankee …. if I thought the Sox were so great I wouldn’t be so concerned about the yankees getting Santana. The sox were down 3-1 to the Indians. No(truthful)Sox fan wanted to see NY in the playoffs. I’m just trying to give you a sense of the “lay-of-the-land” here, and glean whatever I can from those who are knowledgeable on the Yankees end. The difference between the two teams is almost indistiguishable, and the Santana faceoff will impact that relationship more than anything that has happened in this millenium.
THAT is why I’m posting.
So if the Twins want Hughes, they cannot have Horne, AJax, Betances, IPK, or Tabata.
correct Sunny.
As far as money concerns: the Yanks have $65mil coming off the payroll in ’09 PLUS they begin writing off part of the $800mil stadium expenditure PLUS they have the increase luxury box revenue.
Fair or not, The Yanks are flush with cash. They can afford to take a financial hit in ’08. One thing about Steinbrenner we’ve all learned, he knows that it takes money to make money.
Brian (Red Sox fan) -
Once again, thanks ever so much for demonstrating your obsession of the New York Yankees and in particular, on a Yankee forum. With your image promoting of John Henry, you’re a prime candidate to be put on his payroll in one form or another. Perhaps you can get his hedge funds and NASCAR ventures in order.
Pat …. I tend to agree with you on the Twins’ request. Today’s Globe seemed to imply an either/or situation9re: Bucholtz/Lester), with Ellsbury still off the table.
I think that Bucholtz is a considerable upgrade over Lester, but the Twins haven’t called me for my opinion, so they probably want both.
Having said that, I’m not sure that the Sox won’t do it. After Hanley Ramirez, anything is possible.
” John Henry knows about spending money to make money ”
didn’t 60% of the investments in his hedge fund disappear in the last year? he’s not even a billionaire anymore according to forbes magazine. if thing get any worse in his hedge fund business, for all we know, he might even consider selling the red sox.
the red sox were two games better than the yankees last year in the regular season. both teams were flawed. there is all kinds of room to improve both teams.
santana doesn’t improve the red sox offense or the bullpen.
my take is that if either the red sox or yankees gives up the farm for santana, the other team will have a wide open marketplace to shop in.
once the counter move is made, both teams will be greatly improved over the league ,but there won’t be much separation between the teams.
if there is separation,there are mid season trades that can be made to run down the other team. nothing is settled in december.
If I were Cash, once down in Nashville, I would make certain that I was seen with Billy Beane, and the agent for Bartolo Colon (from what I read, Angels will not offer arbitration, and he will become FA). You don’t have to be serious about dealing for A’s pitchers, or signing Colon. All you have to do is plant doubt in the mind of the Twins.
With the reported deadline (NYT), we might have an answer today or tomorrow…especially with the Red Sox now upping their offer by subbing Buch in for Lester.
Here’s hoping the Hughes/Cabrera/Gonzalez package gets it done!
I just read your post, Randy I. I agree completely (for what it’s worth).
Randy, if that happens, George can float him a loan. Just send a couple of players to NYY and the pink slip on Fenway Park.
It’s been done before. Old Col. Ruppert should have razed that eyesore when he had the chance.
I was just thinking about the Big Stein, George. Now as we look back over the last few months, it’s pretty amazing he hasn’t said anything. I suppose a lot of the innuendo’s must be true about his health, etc… Does anyone remember the last time he was *quoted* as saying anything, besides the torre/playoff comment?
Given how quickly, and confidently, and eagerly, Hank has taken over, it starts to make you wonder about his interest and george’s role over the last 6-12 months…
I agree that the Red Sox could very well make this deal. They didn’t win in ’07 with homegrown talent other than Pedroia, Papelbon and Youkalis. Ellsbury played only 33 games. Bucholz pitched only 4 games.
They won by spending over $200mil last offseason. They are the new Evil Empire. The Yanks are in a battle to regain the title.If the Yanks lose this round,the $ox would have spent $150mil on Santana, $103mil on DiceK, $70mil on Drew and $36mil on Lugo. I want to see Gammons wax poetic about THAT.
Assuming this trade doesn’t go thru (and pesonally i hope it does not) and they keep the big three, does Hughes, Joba and IPK turn out to be:
A: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddox
B: Zito, Hudson, Mulder
C: Wilson, Pulsipher and Isringhausen
Randy 1 …. You’re right about John henry’s Hedge Funds …. he’s had a bad year. Suppose I spin it by saying that he’s willing to take a risk?
The premise of all of my posts is that Santana is a special case. Obviously, nothing is certain, but he is the consensus #1 pitcher in baseball. You could make an argument that if the Yankees were to have him as their ace, and Joe Crede at 3B(instead of ARod), they’d be a better team.
If you’re view is that Santana is not a unique opportunity (which was the Yankee evaluation on ARod – $300 million proves that point), then you can look into the alternatives. But I feel that Santana is THAT much of a difference-maker.
P.S. I think Hank S. feels the same way, unfortunately
A 7 year $150million deal doesn’t soung like their style but after $52 million for negotiation rights I think most bets are off.
———————————————————-
Dice-K ended of costing around $102m for 6 years, or $17m/yr. Only HALF of that is ‘taxable’ salary. Santana is looking for $150m, all taxable. So Dice-K pushed them towards the ‘limit’ by $8.5m, while Santana pushes them towards the limit by $25m. I don’t think the Sox are at the limit yet, and they have no problem getting there. But once they are there, their next $15m player costs them $21m.
Latest News:
“SI.com’s Jon Heyman reports that the Twins are holding out for either Alan Horne or Austin Jackson as a third player along with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera in a Johan Santana deal.”
It seems there is still much posturing going on. If Boston has now offered Bucholz or Ellsbury, Hank will probably relent and add either Jackson or Horne.
I think the Yankee’s interest in Haren is just a smokescreen at this point. Beane will ask for even more than Bill Smith. Although Haren is really good, the Yankees strength is young righthanders. Haren will likely become more attractive if Santana goes to Boston – then panic sets in.
“Liar’s Poker” between Theo and Cash/Steinbrothers – dontcha just love it!
Jonnycat, George Steinbrenner is like the senile old grandfather now. When polite company comes, they lock him in the garage so he doesn’t embarrass the family.
Yankee21 – could not agree more. The only way I give up Hughes is for Santana – who is an ace AND a lefty. Haren is neither.
WTF?!?!? So tired of writing comments and theyd on’t show up on here !!! Some IT please ?!?!?!?!?!?
Of course my byatch session shows up, but not the well-thought-out comment I just spent five minutes writing !
All I was trying to say before is that Wallace Matthews has a great column today about placing too much value and calling a propsect an untouchable…
He cites the Lastings Milledge situation…
A great read for Yankees fans saying the tema is crazy for giving up a few kids for the best (under 30) pitcher in baseball, if not the BEST pitcher in baseball.
Assuming this trade doesn’t go thru (and pesonally i hope it does not) and they keep the big three, does Hughes, Joba and IPK turn out to be:
A: Smoltz, Glavine, Maddox
B: Zito, Hudson, Mulder
C: Wilson, Pulsipher and Isringhausen
I would love to see that happen. however I would not like to face the Redsox with
Beckett, Santanna,Daisuke (Lester) (Schilling)(Wakefield)
Does anybody know the details of when we dont have to pay the luxury tax because of the building of the new stadium? I am not sure but I believe it may be a reason why we have front loaded some of these contracts that are about to be finalized. Can someone please link me to the rule or the webpage regarding luxury tax payments?
GreenBeret7,
like the family uncle in the attic, noisy but not seen. What a sad ending for GS. He was feisty and his Yankees gave a few WS wins. I never thought I would say this: George we’ll miss you.
LOL, the Lasting Milledge situation is something that has happened before and I cite Kazmir for Zambrano situation.
Sending either Horne, Kennedy or Maquez would leave the Yankees two starters short. I have no desire to see Carlos Siva or Kyle Lohse in pinstripes. The only way Jackson would go is by substituting Horne for Hughes and Jackson for Cabrera.
Brian:
I told people to ignore you bc once the trade goes down (assuming he goes to the Sox or the Yankees) you will do say one of two things:
1) Ha Ha Yankee fans we beat you to the punch..just like with Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka and now Santana…the Sox are great
2) Ha Ha Yankees we got you to give up your entire farm system to get Santana…and we’re still the better team cause now we’re going to get Haren, sheets etc.
That is why I prefer to ignore u…This is a Yankee blog not a Sox blog…GO AWAY
By the way you are right about the Sox going for the kill shot.
A rational team would say we won the series…we have our prospects …we’re done.
The Sox clearly want to be the yankees…they want to be the new empire…they see an opportunity to go for the jugular and they’re going to do it.
The Sox do not have money the way the Yankees do. They are adding 800 seats to fenway park cause they need the cash.
Henry went into his pocket to pay for the 51 million to talk to Matsuzaka. If they want to play this game the Yankees should just do what the US did to Russia.
We made Russia spend so much money on arms they couldn’t afford it after 5 years and were forced to surrender. If the Soz want to play money games with us…bring it on I say. The outcome will be the same
Apparently, I can’t post a link on here… Anyway, under prosportsdaily.com is the Wallace Mathews column about Untouchable prospects… pretty good read….
Exactly, Ed. George Steinbrenner was called a lot of things, and most were accurate. The one thing he was never called was bland and boring. He was a fun read, and, actually a pretty nice guy. I had the opportunity to meet him once at Legend’s Field. I was in uniform and went with my brother to a ST game. He sat down just off of the 1st base dugout and he came down and talked. They had a couple of little cuties serving him things. Brought us a few food things and drinks. They were so helpful, I was going to ask them for some personal service, but, the sun was getting hot.
east side, personally, I like it when I can hear the Red Sox fan’s opinion, and I think he is mature not to be hahaha all about it, I think you are immature to be saying that Red Sox fans are like that because they all could be saying that about us. So say (Red Sox) Brian, I like your input.
Vertigo-
According to the MLBPA agreement.
A teams performance factor (which I believe is what determines how much they pay into revenue sharing) maybe adjusted ONE time during the agreement if the Club opens a new stadium. It is all very confusing to me but the specific provision can be found by going to http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/info/cba.jsp
Then look at page 107
Forbe’s Magazine
Steinbrenner’s Tax Shelter
Michael Ozanian and Lesley Kump 05.08.06
Baseball’s revenue-sharing system has penalized George Steinbrenner for creating value. The new Yankee Stadium will help him lessen the damage.
Check out: http://www.forbes.com/free_for.....8/060.html
Vertigo: Try a search of Fortune magazine from last August..Yankee stadium windfall
money/cnn.com/2007/08/10/news/newsmakers/yankee_stadium
So Fuc*&*(ing mad !!! Half the comments I write aren’t appearing…WTF !?!?!?!?!?? I’m out…
And someone kick Red Sox Brian in the nutz for me. Do you see me slummin’ at Sawx Blogs? Stay in your lane!
“New York City will borrow the $800 million cost of a new stadium to be opened in the Bronx in time (it is hoped) for the 2009 season. The team will pay the city $55 million a year in lieu of certain taxes and the money used to pay off the bonds. This debt service, along with $25 million in operating and maintenance expenses, is deductible against the revenues that are subject to the 34% tax. Once the new stadium is in place, the Yanks will save $7.8 million a year in revenue-sharing taxes if they amortize their stadium-financing cost over the life of their 40-year lease, according to sports economist Andrew Zimbalist, author of the recently published In the Best Interests of Baseball? (Wiley, 2006).
One baseball executive estimates that the new stadium will boost the Yankees’ revenue by $45 million a year from such things as tickets and luxury suites. The Yankees will earn more from nonbaseball events like concerts and save the $5 million a year in rent that they pay at their current stadium. All told, the new stadium should increase the team’s bottom line (after league assessments but before state and federal taxes) by roughly $25 million a year, according to insiders familiar with the team’s finances.”
Of course, that one goes through !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Boston is indeed offering Buckholz, the Yankees are sitting pretty.
On the one hand, if Boston gets Johan they will now pay for the privilege. Though Buckholz is not quite on the level of Hughes and he was shut down at the end of last season with what remains a somewhat mysterious arm ailment, he’s still a very good prospect, perhaps the best Boston has. Lester, by contrast, is a pitcher who shows occasional competence but is very erratic, runs up high pitch counts and is usally out of the game one out into the sixth inning. So if Boston gets Santana for Bucholz and others, that’s fine. We get Phil Hughes and a very competent, high spirited center fielder and $150 million. I like that deal.
On the other hand, if you believe acquiring Santana is important for the Yanks, there is still a way to do it — and make Boston pay yet more. The simple truth is that while the Twins are understandably focused on the top tier of Yankee farm talent, the second tier is almost uniquely rich and abundant. Remember that the Yankee farm teams had the highest winning percentage in all of minor league baseball last year. I believe it was also one of the higherst winning percentages ever. Two teams also won their league championships. These were all squads laden with young talent– some of their teams were actually among the youngest in their leagues. The Twins scouting people have to know that the Yankees have at least 30 players beyond the top-tier that have a very good chance of being solid major leaguers or even stars.
So the Yankees can — and probably should — sweeten their offer with quantitiy. Yes, the Twins will sneer at first. But the more they look at, say a five man package that goes beyond Hughes and Melky (but excludes Ajax, Tabata, Horne, Betances) the harder it will be for them to resist. The Yankees last two drafts are among the best two years of talent drafting in the last two decades of baseball — there are substantial pickings left and the Twins ultimately will have to recognize they’d be getting more than fair value with two or three out of this crop. And besides, if the Yankees play the quantity card, it will again force BOston to sweetren the pot.
The Yankees are indeed sitting pretty. But they have to play their cards right.
Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Would anyone here trade Hughes + Cano for Santana + Nathan and then swing a deal for Freddy Sanchez of the Pirates to replace Cano?
bphil:
In response I will refer to one of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite movies:
“Bphill, you are my brother and I love you…but don’t over take sides against the family again.”
Someone correct me if I got the quote wrong
Can already see it, as East Side called it..
Yanks get Johan, we overpaid, according to some (see below).
But if Sawx got Johan, according to an in-the-closet Yankees fan named Brian (Red Sox Fan) (who despite being a so-called Sawx fan, is ALWAYS in here) and a certain yellow-toothed, white haired old man at ESPN with the initials PG, it will be the heist of the century, the deal of the decade..
Green Beret 7 :
Yeah, a lot has happened since Col. Jacob Rupert was around. By itself, just imagine how many coats of green paint have been applied to the Green Sardine Can. How many Red Sox fans alone never got to the restroom on time because of the tightly squeezed aisles and seats ? How many people now pay north of $75.00 to park for at least a one-mile walk to the ancient old venue ? The list goes on and on ….
master, no
Yanks should grumble and posture just enough to keep things semi-rational and then make the deal for Santana. Money is not a problem. Imagine the hype (and $$$) surrounding openning day in the new stadium with the Best Pitcher in BB, the Best Player in BB, the Greatest Closer in BB (I didn’t say “best” bc I do not want to stir up that hornet’s nest), etc etc. Fox Sports will have to float a secondary offering for the rights to that one. And if MLB is smart, they’ll schedule the RS to be there for that game.
Trading Hughes (and any others) now is part of the NYY strategy. BC saw Santana’s contract situation evolving just like this long ago. He has groomed these young players just for this moment. Trades them now, and if they prosper like many believe they will, then he ‘buys’ them back when they hit free agency in the not too distant future. And he pays them well for their skills and also for being good ‘soldiers.’
He’ll certainly have the $$$ to do it, as noted above.
Shamus -
Are you suggesting that ESPN spring for a few bucks to get Gammons a set of chompers ? Maybe John Henry could buy him a rinse cup with a Socks logo on it for Christmas.
This is total posturing, the twins are going to make the deal without Horne or Jackson or any of the other five.
If they decide to sit on Santana and he becomes a free agent.. they’ll get to draft picks..
Uhm, what more potential can you hope for in draft picks that is better than Phil and Melky?
So unless the deal is being held up because another team has added something to the mix we don’t know about.. I can totally see the Yankee’s beginning to discuss contract options with Santana no later than tomorrow.
Lastly, If the twins sit on Santana until July 31rst .. and Hughes has a great year .. they just lost Hughes in the deal.
bphill:
Just busting you’re chops a little : )
But on a serious point…Brian is not our friend…the one thing we all have in common is we love the yanks…he loves the Sox…everything he ultimately says will conclude with how great the Sox are.
If I wanted that I would have stayed with my ex…this is where Yankee fans come to revel in their love of the yanks
You’d figure his wife or kids or SOMEONE would tell him. Sometimes I don’t know if he even brushed before they got him on the satellite feed from Hyannis, Cape Cod!
The way this playing out, I almost feel that this deal is going to fall apart & the Yankees will get Johan in July once the Twins fall out of contention for a lot less than they would get right now.
That could be the best scenario for the Yankees, then both Phil & Melky stay at least for the time being.
hmmmmm – “why do people keep mentioning Kazmir? has there been a single report that he is available? anything?” The Rays announce in the newspaper that would consider trading Kazmir IF they got a VERY strong package in return. They see that Santana, and to some degree Harem, have inflated the market, so they want to see what they can get.
——————————————————-
In various articles, the Yankees seem to have some interest in Haren. I guess the Yankees are under Haren’s spell because of the one great season he had.
———————————————————
Haren’s ERA+ over the last 3 years is: 120
Wangs Career ERA+ is: 119
Becketts Career ERA+ is: 116, 120/last 3 years, and a crazy 145 last year. I’m not sure what defines an Ace. Haren is nowhere near Santana but is a very good Pitcher.
If we had: Haren, Wang, Phil, Joba, Moose/Horne
I believe that is one of the best rotations and only slightly worst then Boston WITH Santana. Beckett is an excellent pitcher, but last year was his best. You won’t see that on a regular basis. Dice-K will not be that good over his contract. In Japan, he threw great ‘junk’ and got a lot of bad swings. His FB was enough to overpower Japanese bats. However, once he is better scouted, and MLB batters lay of his ‘junk’ (he already gives up 3.5BB/9) his FB will not be enough to get hitter out consistantly. The guy had an ERA+ of 108 (again, Wang is 119). He is a #3, who will get a little better as he adjusts, but will have less success as MLB batters adjust.
I think another important part of this debate,is the fact Minny won’t nearly get the value of players at the trade deadline. That’s because Johan will never sign an extension with only a couple of months left before FA. Minny knows, the Yankees knows this. Draw the line in the Sand Yankees. Minny will cave.
I just wish that Jose Reyes could be involved in a deal, if Johan goes to the NL, I will be the happiest man alive, then the Yankees and Redsox don’t win, but they don’t loose.
We probably all need to relax a little…If the Sox get Santana…so be it…I know their payroll will be through the roof and they’ll likely lose Beckett as a result…They can’t afford them both.
I thought my world would end when I was sitting at game 7 of the ’04 ALCS and the Sox won and went on to win the series. Surprisingly , the Sun did rise again.
Is there a good chance that the Sox will repeat with Santana? Yes, there’s a decent chance but other teams are getting better (no one will have Tampa to beat on for 13 – 15 wins next year) and its not a sure thing.
We have great young pitching…the most valuable commodity in baseball…the sun will shine again on the yankees
bphill–Omar Minaya isn’t smart enough to trade Reyes+ for Santana.
bp,, I would imagine the Twins would like a NL team to step up to.. If all offers are even,, the NL team will get the nod from the twins as one would imagine the Twins would like to trade Santana out of sight/league.
Assuming Santana would waive his NTC, this would be a great opportunity for LAD if they had the guts to move on it.
i don’t think this is going to happen. it’s moving way too slowly. it’s way too public. it just isn’t going to happen. the twins are going to pull the plug or the red sox are going to come up with a creative deal (3 way trade or more players from Twins) that gets the deal done.
hughes should have been enough.
however i heard that Santana would not like to go to the West Coast, I could see him going to the Mets and being good, I don’t care if we loose the subway series becuase of Santana, doesn’t mean that much to me.
I don’t think Minaya can be faulted for not offering up Reyes for Santana.
Despite a down 2H/2007, Reyes is a guy you keep, not unload.
From the DN article linked to from above:
“As he was talking, I noticed a familiar face approaching our booth. Tino Martinez, another Tampa sports celebrity, and an older man whom he introduced as his grandfather had been dining across the room.
“Hey, Tino, how you been?” Hank said, looking up. “You get that all worked out?”
“I haven’t heard back yet,” Martinez answered.
“Well just call (Brian) Cashman – I’ll call him, too – but I’m sure it’s all set.”
After Martinez departed, I asked: “Back in the fold?”
“Yeah,” Hank said. “Tino asked about doing some work for us, coaching, instructing, and at the very least he’ll be in spring training with us.”
In that respect, I thought, Hank is just like his dad when it comes to having a soft heart for old Yankees, especially Yankees with championship rings.”
Okay, THAT made me smile.
I’m a major Twins fan and I have to say I love how a lot of Yankee fans are insistent that the team not trade Hughes and/or Cabrera in any deal for Johan Santana.
Santana is Santana = the best pitcher in baseball. Nobody even blinks answering Santana when asked that question.
what is Phil Hughes? A SP Prospect->Prospect. A very high one yes. But that doesn’t mean he’ll ever come remotely close to Santana’s caliber.
Cabrera doesn’t impress me at all. I hear he’s terrific defensively, which is nice, but how good of a hitter is he? A lot of people say he’s going to improve a little, but won’t ever even be a .300, 15, 80 guy.
My point here is some Yankee fans are whining about players that are nowhere near the return you would be getting in Santana. Like I said, I’m a twins fan, and there is nobody on the twins team I want them to keep more than Santana, Hes the best in baseball and theres no argument that can be made, were talking top 5 pitcher ALL TIME. the chances Hughes or any other prospect in baseball will become that caliber are slim and none. If santana was a yank, he’d go 25-3 some years pretty easily I think because he’ll have run support.
the Fact is, a deal with Hughes and Cabrera and some other prospects just isn’t going to get it done if you Yanks really want the guy. It’s gonna take Hughes, Kennedy/Gonzalez/Tobata, and Cabrera, and I’m guessing you would even hate that more. But I find it rather retarded of these said yank fans that they’re already trying to give up too much when its obvious to everyone in baseball and the twins GM Bill Smith that it still ISN’T ENOUGH.
If someone doesn’t pony up for Bill Smiths asking price, you’ll be sorry later because Santana won’t hit the open market next year. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking the twins won’t pay Santana. They already offered him the highest per year salary EVER for a pitcher (4 Yrs, 80 Mil, 20 Mil a year), he turned it down, but his issue is the years. If theyre willing to do that, don’t think they won’t go 6 Yr, 130-140. Get him now or never get the chance.
I have a couple of thoughts. First off, we need to ALL STOP THE WHINING ! Whatever the Yankees do or don’t do this Winter, they will be doing the very best that they can and will be making educated guesses as to what players will perform the best in 2008 and beyond. All the money in the world doesn’t buy you a Crystal Ball, but with the huge amount of money that the team pays out in salaries each year, don’t you all realize that we are rooting for the only team in baseball that winning the world series is the goal every year they field a team ? Personally, I would tell Minnesota that the package we have offered them is plenty and walk away. Nobody knows how good Hughes or Santana will be in the years to come as a Yankee, but I will venture a guess that having either of these guys on the team will be a good thing. I am also not to thrilled with the thought of giving up Melky, but does anyone really think that if Santana shows himself to be a true Ace for the Yankees, with “stuff” like Mr. Beck@$$, that if Game 1 of the 2008 playoffs were starting today, you wouldn’t be happier with a true Ace set on the mound over Melky ?
The choices that the Yankees are faced with every year are mostly with only good or great players. Would you prefer debating the moves that the Tampa Rays are faced with year in and year out. The Steins are about winning and spending money to do so. You all need to be thankful about that, IMO. In a perfect world ( which, last time I checked, we don’t live in )…we tell Minnesota to take their trade and shove it, Boston does the same, we keep Hughes and Melky, then we simply BUY THE GUY with a crazy salary for 2009 and beyond and we get to keep all of the people being mentioned in the proposed trades…I am OUTTA HERE…have a great day !
SteveMN:
Thanks for sharing your opinion…the Yankees have taken your proposal of Kennedy, Hughes, Tabata, Cabrera for Santana under cosderation and here is our answer
No…bye
screw the twins now…
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....age_w.html
Well excuse some of us Yankee fans that don’t want to see another hired gun come here and fall flat on his face.
Steve:
Cabrera doesn’t impress you? How is center field for the Twins looking right now? Hughes is just a prospect?
Santana is a top 5 of all time? Santana’s not even a top 5 left hander of all time.
Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax, Whitey Ford, Ron Guidry. Those are just 5. I could list more.
Dear all Twins fans,
Take Lester the BB machine and Crisp the deflated x-roider. Go for it.
Must be some strong tequilla in the water in Minnesota these days if their fans believe Santana is worth as much as they say he is.
If Santana is such a big difference maker, why haven’t the Twins been WS champions the whole time he’s been there?
Santana is a great pitcher, but he isn’t God. He doesn’t play every day. He will mean 5-6 extra wins. There is a point where you draw the line and say that’s all its going to be.
“Who should the Yankees go after if the Santana deal doesn’t get done?”
Andy Pettitte.
up the offer to $22M for next year.
it’s expensive, but you are “buying” the right to keep your prospects.
LOL @ SteveMN. That trade package is comical.
“if there is separation,there are mid season trades that can be made to run down the other team. nothing is settled in december.”
randy bringing a much needed dose of common sense. thank you. good post.
if you want proof of how santana stacks up against all-timers in some categories. read Jayson starks blog on ESPN.com.
My main issue is do you really think trading a SP prospect Phil Hughes, who hasn’t proven anything yet (besides he is capable of getting hurt) in the majors, for a 2 time CY Young award winner in his prime is lopsided in the Twins favor? give me a break, that is ludicrous.
And as I said before, if you don’t get him now, you won’t get the chance. Why do you think GM Bill Smith is holding to his demands? ANSWER: he knows he can sign him and won’t take anything but his demand for that reason. Get what the Twins want or ‘settle’ for keeping him. It’s easy logic.
If the Twins want more than Phil Hughes, then the Yankees need to consider that even if you don’t have a clear #1 starter, you atleast have numerous #2-#3 starters. If they want more then just give Johan to the sox. I don’t want to give more than Hughes Melky
Just 1 short year from now, the Rays will find themselves in the exact same position as the Twins. They’ll have a star lefty pitcher looking for a big contract. Like Santana, he’ll be 1 year from free agency and anxious to bolt for a winning team via free agency.
Imagine both Santana and Kazmir on the Yankees…
” Get him now or never get the chance.”
santana is the only one who’ll make that decision. he can say no to the twins yankees or red sox. you are forgetting that the twins are not in control here, santana is.
all kinds of things can go wrong for the twins here. if they wait too long to pull the trigger like washingtin did with soriano they end up with two draft picks.
the twins beat you with their team approach. one player is not that important. as a twin fan you should know that. who’s your shortstop by the way?
SteveMN is smoking some good stuff. They can’t keep Santana yet he thinks the Twins should get everything they demand.
Right. The Yankees should at this point be heading toward the door. The Twins have their offer, take it or leave it.
“bphill–Omar Minaya isn’t smart enough to trade Reyes+ for Santana.”
i assume you meant “dumb” instead of “smart”, right?
Steve: You are underestimating the attachment we have for Phi, our home grown prospect that is/was supposed to be the face of the future for our organization.
Would you have traded Joe Mauer after his rookie season for Ivan Rodriguez in his prime (or Jorge Posada?)
Same deal.
Steve, I’d never call you an idiot, but, you better flag down the short bus.
If Smith thought he could sign Santana, why is he trying to trade “one of the top 5 pitchers of all time and still in his prime”?
Julian Reynolds of the Fox NFL crew is such a beautiful woman. But I can’t decide if she looks more like an expensive hooker or cheap call girl with her leopard print dress.
“all kinds of things can go wrong for the twins here. if they wait too long to pull the trigger like washingtin did with soriano they end up with two draft picks.”
this is true, but they also get an entire season of Johan Santana.
if they keep him and make the playoffs next year, that + the draft picks might make it good move.
if they keep him and Liriano comes back, they do have a good team. this isn’t like the Orioles deciding to keep Bedard or not. the O’s probably won’t compete next year. the Twins could compete, they just need to make another minor move for another bat. and that bat could be a DH.
if they were smart, they’d say “F it” and sign Bonds.
Randy L:
That no trade clause issue has been debunked by now. It is clear Santana has no great love for either the Yanks/Sox he will go to any team willing to pay his price.
Remember how Griffey helped the Reds? He came out and said he wanted to play for the Reds only…the mariners were forced to make a deal. Santana does not care how he weakens his future team…he just wants his cash.
Hopefully Theo and Brian are talking to each other right now and have made a gentleman’s agreement to tell GM Smith to suck it. And we will fight for Santana when he is a free agent
“Like Santana, he’ll be 1 year from free agency and anxious to bolt for a winning team via free agency”
not quite:
Proper Name: Scott Edward Kazmir
Age: 22
Service Time: 2.042
Okay, I understand the attachment to Phil Hughes then if he’s your version of Joe Mauer. but with pitching I still think its different, look at Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. I’d put Hughes in a comparable class to them at the same point in their respective careers. You don’t know what will happen with PROSPECTS, but you do know what you’d be getting with Santana. I still think anything the BoSox and Yanks have offered is not enough to justify the Twins sending him off.
and I’m serious when I say they’ll sign him, I’ll say I told you so when it happens if the offer demands aren’t met.
hmmmmmm…even Bonds isn’t good enough to hit ‘em out of San Quentin
i dont think the twins will be able to afford santana to a long term deal. the same thing just happened with torii hunter…these guys want to play for winning teams and though the twins have a solid core of young guys coming through the system, santana and hunter want to win now
“Get what the Twins want or ’settle’ for keeping him. It’s easy logic.”
santana staying with the twins doesn’t change the yankee/red sox dynamic.
the yankees and red sox both would probably like santana to stay with the twins rather than give up the farm. it doesn’t upset the balance between the two teams.
sanatana staying with the twins is no threat at all to either team. if anything ,it hurts the twins to even mention it. they should scare both teams into thinking if they don’t get santana the other team will.
El Gato Roberto …
You say there are enough arms on the farm to allow Phil to be included sans worry. Is there enough to get Santana AND Haren, and still have some live young arms left over?
Without going into details (one couldn`t expect someone on the inside to disclose) can you tell us if it`s at least been thunk of?
steve, would you do a hughes/melky/alan horne deal like bill smith is saying cause i would love for that to happen. sure horne has had some success but it has been in AA ball and he is just a prospect. and the yanks have plenty of pitching depth in the farm
Steve MN,
Santana best pitcher ever? How do you explain his second half last year when he was barely league average?
And if he’s so good, why are you peddling him? Oh, becuase he costs too much. Well value reflects both performance and cost. That’s why you’re lucky to get someone who “might” be as good as him (Hughes) in return. As to Cabrera, I wonder if you’ve seen him play. He has more assists than any AL outfielder over the last two years, he has the heart of lion, makes big plays and he’s not even 23 years old. Smith is trying to be big-time, squeezing everybody for the last ounce, but he’s in danger of overplaying his hand and alienating both New York and Boston.
StevieWonder, answer the questions. Ho’s center field looking for the Twinkies right now?
*how’s*
“Hes the best in baseball and theres no argument that can be made, were talking top 5 pitcher ALL TIME.”
wow. not even close.
this is some serious delusion.
Steve:
Kerry Wood and Mark Prior have pitching mechanics that are miles apart from Phil Hughes…That’s why both of their careers are in jeopardy.
“hmmmmmm…even Bonds isn’t good enough to hit ‘em out of San Quentin”
it’s 4 months until the season starts. you think he’ll go to trial, be convicted, and in jail within the next year?
doubtful.
i know you were joking around, but i was kindof joking to. the Twins would never sign Bonds. it’s just not their style.
“If theyre willing to do that, don’t think they won’t go 6 Yr, 130-140. Get him now or never get the chance.”
what’s stopping them?
this makes no sense.
Just read Tyler Kepner’s Article. He asserts that the twins arent very high on melky, and that they value the third prospect in the deal much more. If this is the case, why must he be part of the deal? It seems he would mean much more to the yanks next season. Could we make this deal happen without melky? It would be good for defense, and the clubhouse environment next year.
mel: How about Hawaii?
RosterRooster: Because the Twins need a CF, no matter how good, and Melky is conceivably the best on the market.
Correct me if I’m mistaken but hasn’t this Bobcat person been exposed as not being any kind of an insider?
He said that Santana was using his NTC- clearly that isn’t true.
He also said there were separate lists (20 I think) where if hughes went in the deal they get less prospects; it would seem that the Twins have merged these alleged lists and now want our entire farm system
If Melky is not in the deal it would likely mean the Yankees would have to put Horne and either Tabata or Jackson. Going by that I would rather give up Melky even though the Twins aren’t very high on him.
i would love a hughes/ajax/horne deal rather than have melky in the package…cano and melky are so cool
Roster, if they aren’t high on Cabrera in center, they must hate that hole they have there now. They could try Brett Gardner, sign Rowand for 5 years and 75 mil.
“if you want proof of how santana stacks up against all-timers in some categories. read Jayson starks blog on ESPN.com.”
so what? he’s done it for 4 years.
if he does it for 10-15 more years, we’ll start putting him in the conversation for best of all time.
Clemens, Pedro, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux.
those are all-time greats.
it’s basically like saying Pujols is a top 5 player of all time b/c no one has really done what he has done up to this point. maybe, but he’s not there YET.
if santana blew out his arm tomorrow, he wouldn’t scratch the list of the 20 best pitchers of all time.
and i would bet anything that his next 4 seasons won’t be as good as his last 4.
he’s great, but spare us the hyperbole. top 5 of all time? you’re embarrassing yourself.
“i would love a hughes/ajax/horne deal rather than have melky in the package…cano and melky are so cool”
wow, thank god you are not our GM.
I stand corrected. The Rays will find themselves in the same position as the Twins in 2 years, not one.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11.....846843.htm
Santana`s among the top pitchers going right now. But to consider him among the all-time greats after just 3 very good years and an off-year where he still did pretty darned good just isn`t right.
If he does as well for 10-12 years, he`d rank among the all-time pretty darn good pitchers. That`s not a knock on him at all. But look through (especially over the long haul) before calling him the best ever, or even one of the best ever.
“RosterRooster: Because the Twins need a CF, no matter how good, and Melky is conceivably the best on the market.”
not really. the Twins could just sign Mike Cameron for a year.
From the NY Post Kazmir article:
“The thinking is that because Kazmir is three years from free agency as opposed to one year for Santana, he might bring nearly as much in return.
The Rays need multiple high-end pitchers, and Kazmir, just about to enter arbitration eligibility for the first time, might be too expensive and ready to depart just as Tampa is projecting contention in two to three years.”
Now the Twins are saying Hughes and Cabrera aren’t good enough and they want Kennedy, Jackson or Horne added. I say walk away. I love Santana he’s an amazing pitcher but the price is too high, as it should be. If I were the Twins I’d ask for a boat load too. CashMan needs to walk away if they want that much though because losing Hughes is hard enough. We stepped up and subbed Hughes in for Kennedy and now thats still not good enough and they want both of them? Forget it. Haren and Bedard are out there. And even if we have to sit on our young rotation, is that really such a tragedy? The answer is no.
“Hes the best in baseball and theres no argument that can be made, were talking top 5 pitcher ALL TIME.”
Um well 3 great years doesn’t quite get him here. If he had started his dominance at younger age and kept it up until now, maybe he would have had a chance, but now NO. He is probably not even in the top 100 pitchers of all-time. Santana is good, but not hall of fame good, Hughes could be HOF good because he is so young, and if success comes early and continues, then you never no.
he may or may not be inside but he appears close to someone there at the least
well If i were the Yankees, I would of put a 24 hour deadline not this 48 hour one, we need to turn our attention to Haren or supposedly Kazmir if available to avoid a World War between us and the mets/sox
Twins don’t like Melky? Good, let’s keep him.
So here’s the question: would it make sense to substitute Ajax for Melky? At that point, you’re really giving the Twins what they say they want in Bucholz/Elsbury. Jackson arguably has more promise than Elsbury as he has shown far more power at a much younger age. Would it be wise to surrender Phil and Ajax if that’s what it takes to get the deal done? If so, and Twins want a third player, it would clearly be a lesser one. I’m inclined to go with either the quantity approach or the Hughes/Ajax approach. Certainly, the earlier deals that would have required us to give up both outr current and future center fielders were ridiculous. But maybe Ajax alone makes sense. We’d still have Melkty and Gardner.
“Santana is good, but not hall of fame good”
uhh, i objected to calling him top 5 all time, but he certainly has a very good shot at the hall of fame.
he already has 2 Cy Youngs and should have 3.
my issue isn’t that he isn’t great, just that “top 5 all time” was a ridiculous claim. calling him not Hall of Fame quality is equally ridiculous.
“Hopefully Theo and Brian are talking to each other right now and have made a gentleman’s agreement to tell GM Smith to suck it. And we will fight for Santana when he is a free agent”
i would love that , but i think that the collusion would be too big of a risk to take. if either team backed off the deal and signed him , how would the other team be able to complain? there won’t be an agreement to back off, but it would be a smart move to make if it was within the rules.
Austin Jackson is not major league ready. Cabrera is and that’s why the Twins asked for him.
bphill:
I think we match up better with the Rays because they need young pitching depth more than the Twins. We could trade them 3/5 of a rotation for Kazmir. Not saying they would deal with us but how could they resist an offer of Kennedy, Horne and Betances?
hmmm,
‘s why I said concievably. Anyway, Melky won’t be starting the season suspended…
ITEMS OF INTEREST …..
When discussions for a long term contact arrive (and they will), Johan Santana and Bobby Abreu are good friends. Peter Greenberg is the player agent for both. Peter Greenberg is a Manhattan based agent. It’s in his best interest to have a good professional relationship with the Yankees knowing the good young prospects in the system will want good representation.
The Devil Rays aren’t trading Karmir to the yankees.
Ranting Guy:
I don’t know…did he say anything that any of us could not come up with…Anyone with a computer can find out that the Yankees are rich in right handed pitching and anyone can have an opinion that we can replace anyone we lose in a trade.
As I said he was clearly blowing hot air concerning the lists and the NTC issue.
I agree Master, however I would stick to that offer, but not giving up Hughes, I would love to trade for Bedard too just like Kazmir, but I do not feel comfortable trading Phil Hughes, our best pitching prospect within the division to a team we play 19 times a year
Agent47:
Did I say the Rays are trading Kazmir to the Yankees? I think I said the opposite.
“Not saying (the Rays) would deal with us….”
Jesus Christ.
J. V. Yonkers:
If Santana or Greenberg cared about any of that he would be a Yankee already.
Besides, If Ajax/Tabata are ready the Yankees aint signing Agreu to a long term anything. Assuming of course they are not traded
Forget Santana at that cost.
Let’s take a look at Ben Sheets.
“. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking the twins won’t pay Santana. They already offered him the highest per year salary EVER for a pitcher (4 Yrs, 80 Mil, 20 Mil a year), he turned it down, but his issue is the years. If theyre willing to do that, don’t think they won’t go 6 Yr, 130-140. Get him now or never get the chance.”
This might be the most hollow statement posted on this board during Santnamania.
The yankees need to make a bad trade now before they give Carl Pohlad the chance to rip out his wallet.
Are you even remotely acquainted with the team you say you root for?
They’re quivering in the bronx.
bPhil:
I agree that I would stick to the offer for Santana because it sets a precedent to the other teams harboring high-profile starters (Bedard, Kazmir). When those guys get placed on the market, nobody can offer the same kind of pitching depth as the Yankees. If we force the Red Sox to overpay for Santana, we put ourselves in a better position to squeeze out the competition for the other high profile starters. The Orioles and Rays will be looking for similar deals for their prized starters. Only the Yankees can provide them with 3 A- pitching prospects to fill out their future rotation. They might not want to deal with us but that would mean they’re willing to accept less talent in return from other teams. That’s bad business.
Santana’s going to need 6 years more just like the tast 4. not likely. His numbers aren’t even matching Guidry’s 5 years
“so what? he’s done it for 4 years.
if he does it for 10-15 more years, we’ll start putting him in the conversation for best of all time.”
Exactly. Santana’s got a few more records to release before he becomes Elvis, if you know what I mean.
Ben Sheets?
Right. And the Pope goes hatless.
I just have a very hard time believing that Santana will sign with the Sox.
(1) They will not pay him $20-25 million x 6-7. They never have done that, and never will.
(2) Beckett compensation WILL be an issue. It’s Josh Beckett, egomanic supreme, after all.
(3) Let’s see…LHP at Fenway, or LHP at YS. Which would you pick?
At worst, Santana goes to the Sox for one year, but does not sign longer. If I were him, I would want to see how I did in Boston, given the Monster. YS is a no brainer.
At some level the Yankees see this, as do the Twins. The rest is posturing. I am not sure Hughes will be in any deal at the end of the day.
hmmmm-
You tell it like it is. Kudos!
Ben Sheets would be a disaster, but you are on the right track.
Who says we HAVE to trade for Santana? I am not sure Haren would be a stud in NY, in fact he may suck, but he is a cheaper risk than Santana at this point.
The Twins should be happy getting just Hughes alone and taking a soon to be $150 million problem off their hands. Sure, they can get the draft picks when he signs as a Free Agent, but you’re talking about one of the best young pitchers right now in Hughes.
They are greedy bastards, nothing more.
If the Twins pass up a chance for Hughes, they’re going to regret it big time.
“Anyway, Melky won’t be starting the season suspended…”
good point.
PittsburghYankeesFan:
I once thought the same thing as you. I am beginning to change mind however.
Imagine you are the Red Sox, The Yankees have been kicking sand in your face for 86 years…but suddenly you have the upperhand and you win 2 WS.
Now you have the opportunity to go for the jugular and Santana and ruin (or so you believe) the Yankees. At the very minimum, you keep your foot on their neck for a little longer.
They just might stop being rational and actually trade for Santana. Why not they really have nothing to lose. They have two years before they pay Beckett. What is he gonna do? hold out and not come to spring training?
i would love it if the yankees traded for Sheets if the price was right. he is a VERY talented pitcher. he has had injuries, but they have not been arm injuries.
he could be a HUGE bargain for someone.
at this point, i’d rather deal for Sheets than pay the price the Twins are reportedly asking for Santana.
If the Red Sox have to forfeit Buchholz and Lester and 150 million for Santana, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. I’m just hoping the Twins are pushing the Red Sox as hard as Hank and co.
The resistance by the Twins to accept the offer for Johan could be a blessing in disguise.
The Twins are not going to sign him to an extension, why bother with offering him up unless they are just trying to see if they can get his price down & whether he really wants to stay.
“he’s great, but spare us the hyperbole. top 5 of all time? you’re embarrassing yourself.”
i was interested in steve’s minnesota point of view , but on this blog you learn fast not to make flip comments off the top of your head that you can’t back up.
“They have two years before they pay Beckett. What is he gonna do? hold out and not come to spring training?”
exactly. also, it’s 3 years. they have an option for 2010.
Here is my stance. I would back of Johan right now if it means saving AJAX, Melky, Hughes, Horne, Kennedy etc. I would wait till 2009, for the best Free-Agent class in recet years. However, I have a feeling many of the 2009 top name free-agents will no longer be free-agents by 2009 of next year. The Following pitchers 2009 free-agents…
Willis
Bedard
Beckett
Escobar
Haren
Hudson
Schmidt
Webb
those pitchers are all free-agents after 2009, Hudson and Escobar are the only pitchers i believe will be avaliable. I bet that teams will either trade, or lock them up with extensioins. So the yankees have a choice
1-Trade for a pitcher right now
2-Wait it out with Hughes, IPK, Joba etc and hope for the best in 2009 Freeagency.
My source told me the Yankees were offering Ian Kennedy + Shelley Duncan in a 3 way deal for Ben Sheets with Crawford going to the Brewers and Kennedy + Duncan going to the Rays. Obviously the Twins killed that deal by sending Garza to the Rays and the Rays sacrificied Delmon Young in order to keep Crawford.
east side yankee,
Who says that the Red Sox’s foot is on our neck?
If we faced them in the ALCS (I know, big big IF), we might have gone right through them. We were and are built to beat the Red Sox.
I don’t think they are THAT far ahead of us if ahead at all. We’ve beaten Beckett, we’ve beaten Schilling, and we’ve beaten the Sox time and time again.
Our offense is as good as it has ever been, all we need is to round out our bullpen and staff.
We don’t have to get Santana and if the Sox do, it will hurt them financially. No two ways about it.
I am at the point where all this posturing and attempts to further bend the Yankees over is absurd and should not be tolerated. If am Hank or Cash, I tell them that they agree to Melky and Hughes today or the offer is off the table and we take our chances elsewhere and next year.
Keep some dignity.
If it wasn’t for his being on the Orioles, I’d be an advocate of trading for Bedard.
Unfortunately, Pete Angelos is one form of the devil incarnate.
Um. Ben Sheets? no thanks. I’d prefer to stay away from declining NL central pitchers. If the yankees cant get a deal done for santana, i dont think anyone else is worth the trade. The financial situation is what makes this Johan deal so do-able. They wont have the same advantage with haren, kazmir, or Bedard. If this deal doesnt get done, Cashman should say something like “We are content with our rotation(even if its not true), and we will re-evaluate the market for lefty starters next off season.” That will send a clear message to Johan and CC to sit tight, and we will pay them in a year. I know that the yanks dont think like that (waiting/long term goals etc.) but why send away all this young talent for someone other than Johan.
Dont settle for second best. We can wait a year for our power lefty if need be.
I think Sheets is a high-risk, high reward type pitcher.
I think we could get him for Kennedy,Tabata…which I would do in a FLASH. Sure he might get injured, but a ton cheaper than Johan, solid number 1 starter, proven pitcher.
Rooster:
Good plan.
Master Wangkee…that sounds fishy.
“My source told me the Yankees were offering Ian Kennedy + Shelley Duncan in a 3 way deal for Ben Sheets with Crawford going to the Brewers and Kennedy + Duncan going to the Rays.”
so the Devil Rays were going to trade Carl Crawford for Ian Kennedy and Shelley Duncan? that’s rich.
with all due respect, your source was full of crap.
Rooster you can’t do that though. Tell a player to hold tight and we will pay them. Thats not what a player would do. Hey the yankees told me to wait another year and they will pay me. not gonna happen.
“i was interested in steve’s minnesota point of view , but on this blog you learn fast not to make flip comments off the top of your head that you can’t back up.”
ok, i apologize to Steve in MN. i am also interested in the opposite side’s POV. that was just too crazy to not comment.
Jesus Christ I can’t stand it when posters put words in my F’n mouth. That’s why I hate most message boards. Did I say the Devil Rays were going to do that deal? No. In fact, it was obviously the Rays who preferred to keep Crawford over Young and bring in Garza instead of Kennedy and Duncan.
The thing you’re overlooking is how the Twins factor into the game. In part, they used Garza to keep the Yankees from Sheets, knowing that the acquisition of Sheets would all but kill the market for Santana.
The Yankees know that the Twins want to keep the Yankees in the game. There’s some leverage there that many are unaware of.
Jake:
Maybe foot on our neck was too harsh. but they have won 2 out of the 4 last WS with a lower payroll. I hate the Sox too, but you have to be objective and accept the fact that they are not a fluke. They are an extremely good team with a very good farm system and some money to spend.
The fact that we “may” have beaten them in the ALCS unfortunately means nothing. In ’99 the Sox won the regular season series against the yanks…no one cares…we went on to win the series and be named the team of the decade.
You are right, that it can change at any moment…thats why the Yankees can’t panic and make a bad trade.
For the salary and injury risks that come with Ben Dheets, he’s worth Marquez and not much more. Damned sure not worth Tabata and Kennedy
“1) They will not pay him $20-25 million x 6-7. They never have done that, and never will.”
Boston gave Manny Ramirez 8 years/$168 Million and were also willing to take on ARod’s contract until that deal fell through, So its entirely possible.,
alright well maybe not worth Kennedy. But if i were the Yankees and the Twins want more i’m not giving more. I think we have a solid rotation in what we have now.
Wang, Hughes, Joba, IPK, Petitte/Mussina/Igawa. Not as good as the redsox, but I think it is still solid. Brian cashman can’t deal the whole team for Johan though.
hmmmm:
why are u apologizing? If he was a Yankees fan you would apologize. He is a Twins fan and he did not come here to share his objective opnion with Yankee fans.
he come here to start trouble…so when he said something dumb we jumped all over him, rightly
If we don’t protect our turf this place might get overrun with unknowledgable trolls spouting nonsense
“Jesus Christ I can’t stand it when posters put words in my F’n mouth. That’s why I hate most message boards”
so stop posting.
you posted with a ridiculous trade proposal. no one put words in your mouth.
What about Lincecum?
Wangkee, don’t be ridiculous. The Twins didn’t do that deal to keep Sheets out of NY. Your source and you are full of it.
LathamJoe
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
“1) They will not pay him $20-25 million x 6-7. They never have done that, and never will.â€
Boston gave Manny Ramirez 8 years/$168 Million and were also willing to take on ARod’s contract until that deal fell through, So its entirely possible.,
If I’m not mistaken Manny was going to be traded as part of that Arod deal.
Boston wasn’t going to take on A-Rod’s contract, the deal fell through because they were making him take a pay cut.
Taking on a position player for long contracts is less risky than a pitcher. I don’t see Boston doing it, and frankly, I am thinking the Yankees shouldn’t either.
The offer as it seems to be, Hughes and Melky and some third lower level player is ample. If the Twins don’t like it and deal for the offer that the Sox put together, so be it.
I don’t think the RS have a great pitching staff that will continue as they did last season. Apparently they don’t think so either if they are in on the Santana deal as much as is being reported. I wouldn’t budge from what is on the plate right now, if the Sox up it, walk away.
I think all the stuff being said in the papers is an effort to push either the Yankees or the Sox into giving up more and being on the lower end of the deal.
Green Beret7:
Did I say that the Twins did that deal soley to keep Sheets out of NY and preserve the market for Santana? No. I said that was part of the reason “In part…”
You and hmmmm are good at pushing your opinions by twisting others.
now the sox are ‘reported’ to be willing to give up ellsbury. this is retarded. i hope the twins get lester involved and that the red sox make the trade.
we can look elsewhere and be done with this bullsh*t.
I thought Lincecum but i believe he is off-limits along with Cain.
let the red sox get him…we cant live in fear of them.
i WANT the sox to get him and for us to keep our youth (namely philip)
dont fear the unknown hankenstein; this would not be a loss it would be a victory if we can keep hughes!
jake…where did you hear this from…is it the one where nathan could be involved too?
GreenBeret7:
If he is the same Wangkee from the Yes Network message boards you can expect more nonsense from him. He talks alot about his alleged sources and is always wrong.
They regularly shout him down at the YES message boards
Hmmm:
Stop posting?
How bout you stop jumping to conclusions about my posts and stop putting words in my mouth? Trade proposals are meant to test GM’s. I never claimed the proposal was a near trade or that talks advanced. Please consider all angles before you react.
East Side Yankee:
Another person trying to tar and feather a poster instead of discussing baseball. Take that crap out of here.
bphill,
just popped up on ESPN (i know, i know ESPN blows, but…). no mention of Nathan.
the yankees allegedly told the twins they have until tuesday or their offer is off the table.
“You and hmmmm are good at pushing your opinions by twisting others.”
i’m not trying to twist anyone.
i am simply saying the idea that the Devil Rays would trade Carl Crawford for Ian Kennedy and Shelly Duncan is absurd.
untill tuesday! thats stupid give them till tomorrow.
“Trade proposals are meant to test GM’s. I never claimed the proposal was a near trade or that talks advanced. ”
ok, fine.
also, that same rumor was on MLBtraderumors.com, so apparently your “source” is just anyone with a computer.
hmmmm:
Oh my God. I NEVER SAID THE RAYS WOULD TRADE CRAWFORD. I explained that they prefered Crawford + Garza instead of Young + Kennedy + Duncan. They didn’t like the deal and found something better or…something better found them.
How do you not understand this?
I thought Lincecum was available because the Giants need position players badly.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3138088
thats the espn link…..
I really don’t understand why Lester won’t be included in the deal,
Hughes=Ellsbury
Kennedy=Lester
why do the yankees need to include both players and the Red Sox only one. Sounds like they don’t like the yankees.
Master Wangkee
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Green Beret7:
Did I say that the Twins did that deal soley to keep Sheets out of NY and preserve the market for Santana? No. I said that was part of the reason “In part…â€
You and hmmmm are good at pushing your opinions by twisting others.
_____________________________________________
yeah. actually, you did
Master Wangkee:
Are u the same Wangkee from the YES Yankee message boards?
You don’t have to answer we’ll find out soon enough when you start talking about your “sources”
But you are right …we should get back to baseball talk…I apologize : )
GreenBeret:
Actually, I said it was PART of the reason, not the WHOLE reason like you suggest.
Again, you jump to conclusions and misinterpreted the meaning of my post.
east side yankee
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:40 pm
GreenBeret7:
If he is the same Wangkee from the Yes Network message boards you can expect more nonsense from him. He talks alot about his alleged sources and is always wrong.
They regularly shout him down at the YES message boards
_________________________________________________
Yeah, I know. He shows up on the ESPN board, too. No harm, everyone there always loves a good laugh, about his thoughts and his source…The Magic 8 Ball.
Seems like another attempt to get Yankees to include more A level prospects. They include Ellsbury but then take out Lester…
The twins have stated time and time again that they want 2 of boston’s top 3. This deal fills a hole in CF for twins but now they lack a major league ready pitcher. I still think the Yankees deal is stronger, and it does sound like the Tampa faction is standing firm on their offer…
Any word from Bobcat?
LathamJoe December 2nd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
“1) They will not pay him $20-25 million x 6-7. They never have done that, and never will.â€
Boston gave Manny Ramirez 8 years/$168 Million and were also willing to take on ARod’s contract until that deal fell through, So its entirely possible.,”
That was under a different ownership regime in Boston if you have forgotten.
The current regime put Manny on irrevocable waivers just hoping some team would claim him and take his 20 million a year deal off the Boston books.
They do not set market salaries in Boston.
As for their dealings with Arod, I guess you have also forgotten that the holdup with that deal was Boston asked Arod to re-do his deal and take less money, giving up money he was already guaranteed to go to Boston.
The Players Association ruled that you cannot give up money you were already contracted to receive and the Boston discount went away along with their interest in getting Arod.
After Arod refused to give up the guaranteed money, there was a one month lull and then the Yankees traded for him.
Boston did not want a player making that much money then and does not want one now.
Your defenses of them are both severely flawed.
Show me where they set market salaries for players.
Don’t give me Dice K’s posting fee.
That did not count against the luxury tax.
At the time in the press that was seen as an investment in opening up Japan for merchandising and advertising for the team (which it ended up not doing).
The Red Sox will not meet Johan’s contract demands. They will try to sell him on the charm and chowdah and they’ll fail. Johan is only out for money right now. He won’t leave a penny on the table.
The starting point for his contract extension is Zito’s 126 million. He will end up with $150 million. The Red Sox will not trade their top prospects and pay that money.
They’re bluffing. They’re looking for a discount now, just like they look for a discount with all their own free agents.
Johan knows the Yankees and the Mets will give him blank checks. He has to steer himself to one of those two teams.
The Red Sox are just posturing.
If I’m the Yankees, I start pulling pieces back from the table if this goes on any longer.
Johan will only approve a trade to the team that meets his contract demands.
“Oh my God. I NEVER SAID THE RAYS WOULD TRADE CRAWFORD. I explained that they prefered Crawford + Garza instead of Young + Kennedy + Duncan. They didn’t like the deal and found something better or…something better found them.
How do you not understand this?”
ok, fine. whatever. sorry for derailing the conversation.
East Side Yankee:
I am the same Wangkee who bashed Arod for being a postseason choker (and maintain that stance) and find it impossible to discuss baseball with fans who can’t overlook my stance on Arod. I will not post on YES because those posters do not discuss baseball. They’re bias shows in their discussion. I have friends in the real world, Yankees fans, who agree that the Arod move was a bad move. I prefer to discuss baseball with them because they know more about my rationale and they know I’m a legitimate fan with real concerns. They know things that are impossible to undertand by reading snipets on a message board. People love to soundbite me. I don’t know exactly why posters tend to do this with me but I prefer ignoring the posters who don’t invest the time to understand the extent of my thoughts.
It’s always, so you’re saying this…so you’re saying that. So, SO, SO.
This isn’t supposed to feel like a trial or a witch hunt. This is supposed to be an open forum where questions are asking instead of agenda’s being pushed.
“After Arod refused to give up the guaranteed money, there was a one month lull and then the Yankees traded for him.”
actually, A-Rod was willing to give up the money. he agreed to it.
like you said, it was the player’s union who refused to allow it.
Yes, you right tim c. My point was that Boston FO already demonstrated they would be willing to take on long term expensive contracts by (1) signing Manny and (2) ridding themselves of Manny for an even longer and more expensive contract (ARod).
Santana fits the Red Sox FO Model quite well in that he’s young and will remain in the “under 35 category” for the anticpated 6-year contract term.
Green Beret:
the one who thought Mattingly would coach instead of Girardi?
Is that you?
My Lehigh Valley Yankee Fan Club is a joke.
I really hope the Yanks keep all 3 of there top tier picturesand see what happens. Last year we had a rough time because we had very little pitching from the beginning. Lets see what they can do. The other thing is Melky, why trade the spark!!!!
Looks like that megadeal for arod hasn’t happen yet lol.
According to Olney, the Sox offer of Ellsbury takes Lester out. If that is the case, then the Sox offer doesn’t come close to giving the Twins what they want or need.
No starting pitcher but an outfielder? The Yankees offer is still better with Hughes and Cabrera.
I bet the Twins will take Santana off the market, which will be fine with me.
bphil: How quickly you forget. We ARE the Evil Empire. People make careers out of hating us.
Master Wangkee:
ok…Everyone is welcome to share their opinions…just don’t try to imply you have sources or inside information like that last fraud Bobcat
Ellsbury>Hughes…at least for the twins and their situation…
i dont know if anyone noticed on espn.com that the sox are willing to deal ellsbury but not with lester or bucholz. it seems like some people live on this blog
This is all a bluff IMO. I say the Twins keep him and try to trade him mid season if they fall out of contention. The Yanks and Sox are both playing the bluff game. Of course they would love Santana’s services but I don’t believe they are willing to give up too much for it.I am not 100% sure Hughes is even on the table. Otherwise I don’t see what the problem is since Minny wanted him included to make the deal happen. I am sure there not that hung up on the third player since Hughes was supposed to be the “deal breaker”.
That leads me to believe that both Boston and the Yanks package looks alot different than what we are reading and hearing. The Yanks and Soxs play the free agent game better since they have deep pockets where they can just throw money at players and not trade talent. I don’t see this deal getting done. All the players that Minny has been foaming of the mouth for are “on the table”. Only time will tell if these offers are for real.
“With the Minnesota Twins insisting on center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury in any trade for pitcher Johan Santana, the Red Sox have altered their offer and have told the Twins they are willing to include the outfielder. ”
no mention that the Sox would want extra players anymore
espn.com
The Sox offer to Manny was under the old ownership. Plus, he is a position player, and got that contract in the era of long term, big deals (Giambi, Jeter, Bernie, Mussina, etc).
I just don’t see the Sox doing this. I see them trying to delay the process by posing.
Suppose this goes on a few more days, the Sox “win” the right to negotiate, and then everything “falls apart.” The Yankees will likely go right after Haren (their second choice), with Santana back to the Twins.
The Yankees get one less year of Santana, which is good for the Sox. Alternatively, the Yankees come in on the back end of Haren negotiations, and have to give more than they want.
Either way, the Sox win to some degree.
Like a GM, look at needs, not wants. They just won the WS, and have two pitchers (Bucholtz and Lester) cheap. Schilling (unlike Pettitte) is giving them another year. The 09 FA class has lots of great RHP.
Why give up anyone for one year of Santana?
I think the Yankees would say the same thing if Pettitte resigned. Maybe the Yankees should float out that rumor to stick it to the Twins?
Bobcat fraud, heh. You have no clue.
Master Wangkee
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
GreenBeret:
Actually, I said it was PART of the reason, not the WHOLE reason like you suggest.
Again, you jump to conclusions and misinterpreted the meaning of my post.
______________________________________________
No, you weren’t misinterprated. Did I say the whole reason. I seriously doubt that it was any of the reason. NYY wasn’t going to give up Kennrdy and something else for a walking timebomb
By your own words you show that Boston isn’t willing to take on big contracts. They were NOT going to take A-Rod’s more expensive contract, it was only with it being reworked to lower ranges that they were going to sign him. So, no, they weren’t going to pay a larger and longer contract.
Buster Olney at ESPN is reporting that Boston is now willing to include EITHER Ellsbury OR Lester in a deal.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3138088
The Twins want Ellsbury – I really, really hope that the Red Sox end up winning this stupid bidding war so that Cash’s master plan will have time to bear fruit.
“the one who thought Mattingly would coach instead of Girardi?
Is that you?”
What’s your point, Master Wangkee? Many baseball people and sportswriters felt that Mattingly would succeed Torre as manager. And if General George had the power of decision making like he had in the past – there’s a really good chance that it would have been Don Mattingly.
(PS: Person in charge of a Baseball Team = “Manager”)
PLEASE CASHMONEY TALK HANKENSTEIN OUT OF GIVING UP MORE.
DROP OUT OF THE BIDDING NOW AND KEEP PHIL AND THE MELKMAN
ROTFLMAO. How do you possibly figure that when they are already down one pitcher and if they trade Santana they will be down two? You can’t just deal excusively with the trade on comparing two players. And for impact, no, Ellsbury won’t be that big an impact player if they have no SP.
Do you even have a clue at what you need to field a team? Doubt it.
Ellsbury, Coco, three prospects…. hmmmmm I dont think so.
Not clear on this point: Are the RS offering Ellsbury AND Buchholz? Or just Ellsbury and other prospects? Because if it’s the first, then I figure that’s the deal the Twins will take; if it’s the second, they still need a ML-ready starting pitcher for their rotation.
The RS have not upped their offer at all.
It’s frankly beginning to get very tedious and I fully expect the Twins to keep Santana.
Bob, I like Hughes more too, and agree that Jacoby is overratted. However, you cant deny that the Twins want Elsbury more than hughes. They have made that point clear for weeks.
Doesn’t the fact that Red Sox offer Ellsbury concern the crap out of you guys?
Woulld you rather the Sox get Tans or that you have to give up Kennedy, Hughes and Melky/Hughes and Cano?…That’s a serious question what do you guys think?
I think we need to scrap the Johan thing and go after Bedard. Chk it out- http://www.yankeegm.blogspot.com
East Side, I was going to respond to one of your posts, but was laughing so hard at Wangkee’s 6 paragraph sob story of why he doesn’t post on YES anymore and how he’s so misunderstood that I can’t remember the post.
PittsburghYankeeFan:
The Boston Red Sox of Henry/Werner also laid out $102 Million ($51 Million in bidding) for 6 years of a Japanese Pitcher that had no Major League experience, too!
Don’t underestimate the Sawx new ownership. Manny ($20 Mil) and Schilling ($8) Mil can come of the books in 2009. That’s more than enough to afford Santana.
I guess the problem is the Twins want Hughes AND Ellsbury, and, there’s really no way to make that happen, is there? Doubt the Yankees and the Red Sox are willing to share Santana! JK.
A few things:
I haven’t posted anything on this topic, but I’ve followed every link I can get my hands on. I’d like to sign the strongest petition right now to keep Phil Hughes… anyone know which one it is?
I can’t imagine Horne or Jackson being the sticking point now that Hughes was included in the deal, but maybe Cashman and Co. are so offended by tthe thought that the Twins wouldn’t consider this a sufficient offer that they’re willing to just not deal with them. By the sounds of the deadline and interest in Haren, etc, this might be the case. And if the sox go and include Bucholz or Ellsbury in their deal (I guess this is sort of possible right now?) I say so be it. I want to win, and would hate to lose to the sox, but more importantly I want a team I can root for every day. This season, frankly, was an amazing one to be a yanks fan, and coming back from 14.5 back did not leave a bad taste in my mouth. Sure we didn’t go farther, but wasn’t that so much fun? I’d gladly take rooting for guys the same age as me rather than losing Hughes, Melky, and Horne to the f*ing Twins.
On a related sports note: Hail Stanford for beating Cal and getting to storm the field afterward. That was absolutely beautiful.
The Sux have not upped their offer at all. Give them Ellsbury but take away Lester… All they have been doing is interchange peices in the offer with different names, but in the end the value pretty much stays the same (The twins dont fill the holes they need).
What they achieve by doing this is generating more press releases, which they hope would scare the steins into throwing in more highly touted prospects. I do think that the Sux would like to land Santana but only if they dont have to give up 2 of their big 3 prospects. I think Theo rather see the Yankees lose Hughes and take on more salary than land Santana themselves.
“Woulld you rather the Sox get Tans or that you have to give up Kennedy, Hughes and Melky/Hughes and Cano?…That’s a serious question what do you guys think?”
i would rather the Sox get “Tans”.
Kennedy, Hughes, and Cano? no way. that’s nuts.
p.s. “Tans” is an awful, awful nickname
“The Sux have not upped their offer at all. Give them Ellsbury but take away Lester…”
except all reports indicate that the Twins prefer Ellsbury to Hughes.
if that is true, and we have no idea if it is, they HAVE upped their offer.
The Yanks should not worry about what the RedSox offer. If the keep looking at what the RedSox offer, the price will continue to go up and that’s not a good way to get a trade done.
The Twins want Ellsbury more than Hughes or Melky, at least that’s what I’ve read on some articles.
If the Twins take the Sox offer I think that means they are willing to meet Santana’s price.
A lot of people thought that the Sox were never going to pay that Japan team 51 million and then sign Matsuzaka; they all thought the Sox were simply trying to keep him from the yankees for 1 year…Surprise they signed him.
I think we have to assume that the Sox are serious…we can’t expect this deal to fall apart bc they won’t pay him.
Good Poker players always change up the strategy once in a while
Anthony_CA:
awesome post and i totally agree with you
The Sox are ready to include Ellsbury, apparently… Somehow I don’t buy that…
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3138088
Yankees GM-
Too bad Bedard or Kazmir will not be traded to the Yankees, no way, no how.
hmmm, the main reason i feel the Sux havent upped their offer is because the Twins will definitely need a major league ready starter with the departure of Santana.
Is that wiretap suppose to be some kind of joke or something ? RS willing to deal Lester or Ellsbury is upping thier offer ? Lester who hasn’t even pitched more innings than Hughes or Kennedy and was already in the deal, now this all for Ellsbury ? Ellsbury = what exactly ? how many total ABs(116)and 33 games is enough evidence in the MLB ?
STAND PAT CASH & HANK
Hmm, I Agree “Tans is a pitiful nickname. I prefer Jo-(Han Solo)-Tana. Think about it. He will be our hired gun, just like Han. Also, The Falcon was deceptively fast. Just like Jo(HanSolo)Tana’s fastball after he throws a change.
“hmmm, the main reason i feel the Sux havent upped their offer is because the Twins will definitely need a major league ready starter with the departure of Santana.”
no, i agree with you.
but the Twins don’t seem to agree with either of us if you believe the reports.
GreenBeret7:
I was laughing my but off at his sob story as well…If only we could put some nice melodramatic music in the background.
Yes I am Wangkee…(sob..sob)…no one understands me…oh woe is me…
classic
I know I’m being mean…but it is hilarious : )
“uhh, i objected to calling him top 5 all time, but he certainly has a very good shot at the hall of fame.
he already has 2 Cy Youngs and should have 3.
my issue isn’t that he isn’t great, just that “top 5 all time†was a ridiculous claim. calling him not Hall of Fame quality is equally ridiculous.”
I doubt he will be HOF good, as of now he only has 93 career wins. He is going to turn 29 during or b4 the season starts. If you consider the fact that most pitchers begin to decline between 33-36, that gives him only 5-7 more years where he could win at least 15 games. He is really gonna need to keep his ERA down, K’s up, and win consistently to make it to the HOF, it is not easy to get in there. To call a guy that has had 3 very good years, and a pretty good year in 2007 is just ludicrous. If this is the case u are stating, I guess if Wang wins 19-20 again he will be a sure thing. IMO you have to win at least 250 games to make the HOF and have a career ERA below 3.5 now a days, and a good K-rate. Johan will have a tough time making the wins, but if he could keep his other stuff down he may have a chance. He is far from a sure thing, he is gonna need to win at least another 100-130 games to even be considered.
This whole Santana fiasco is driving me crazy!!! Can’t they just end this so that I can get on with my life…
I hate the Sux, but i gotta love the rivalry. There is nothing better in all of sports.
They’ll deal Ellsbury but not both him and Lester. How is that an upgrade in their offer? Even if they include both a Hughes/Melky package is better. This thing stinks to high heaven. I think it’s game being played by Boston and Minny of “How stupid is Hank?”
Hey… I guess ther’s always other fish in the sea…
CC will see whats happening with Johan, and think hmmm,,
“five years and $90 million from Cleveland” at this time next year, or “five years, $125 from NYY…”
Hmmm….
If not CC, (or someone else via free agency) just go with the youth at this point.
Either:
A) Yellow tooth Gammons is the ‘source’ and he’s trying to help drive up the price on the NYY to include all the good prospects…
or B) They are really thinking that they are one more ace away from dominating for the next five to seven years, the way the NYY did since 1996… continously…
As someone earlier poinetd out, they can, will and have spent the $$$ before… ASk Manny, Dice-K, Nancy Drew Julio Who, and they were interetested in acquiring A-Rod twice.
And they were also the team ready to give Bern Baby Bern six years, $90 M back in 1998, before he resigned with the NYY.
They have the cash, and they aren’t afraid to spend it!
EVEN ROTOWORLD AGREES
Go after Bedard?? Angelos has not ok’ed a trade of any worth for any big O player in centuries. Good luck to any team in that negotiation
I find it interesting that ESPN (ahem the Olney/Gammons tandem) is the only news service reporting this…
Any other sources on this Ellsbury ‘upgrade’?
I think the Twins want to trade with Boston. IMO, the Twins haven’t been pressuring Boston like they have with the Yankees. It just seems that way to me.
So when Santana goes to the Angels or the Mariners, just for kicks, is this blog gonna go ‘splody?
Afternoon all! Any new news? OR is it just the same old crap?
Eroc your right and I hope the Yankees figure that out before they ask for Hank’s pants to be a throwin in this deal
Matt
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Doesn’t the fact that Red Sox offer Ellsbury concern the crap out of you guys?
Woulld you rather the Sox get Tans or that you have to give up Kennedy, Hughes and Melky/Hughes and Cano?…That’s a serious question what do you guys think?
_________________________________________________
What bothers the crap out of me is that life in your part of the world is so boring that you’d spend every day trolling on a sports board. Hopefully, you aren’t an adult.there
The above post about Austin Jackson was not made by me.
“They’ll deal Ellsbury but not both him and Lester. How is that an upgrade in their offer?”
it is an “upgrade” if the Twins prefer Ellsbury to Hughes.
whether that is right or wrong is irrelevant. all that matters is what the Twins want.
and if it happens, i am not going to blame the Yankees. they went as far as they could. they offered Phil and Melky. that is a tremendous, tremendous offer.
This thing is absolutely a joke already. So Bostons offer is Ells or Les and 2 lower level prospects how would that beat a deal with Hughes in it?? I dont get it. Now the Twins will come to the Yanks and want Horne and Jackson…even though Hughes STILL tops anything that Boston has offered yet. Even if Cash includes Jackson or Horne then they will probably come back in 2 hours and say they need more.
long night for you too huh
nothing the same ol’ Twins asking Yanks for $50 bucks and then say well the RS are willing to give me $10 why can’t you give me $50 it’s only money..
the sox offer Ellsbury now, but only without Lester. this strikes me as strange because if they are willing to give up Ellsbury for Santana, why would Lester be the sticking point.
Lester is solid, won a World Series game, but the sox are deep on pitching at the major league level and prospects down below. the Sox can get Santana if they give up both Ellsbury and Lester, so why aren’t they doing it? i’m not sure they really want Santana and his huge contract, but are just offering Ellsbury without Lester in another way to try to get the Yankees to bid higher.
i agree with Pete Abe and others on here that the Sox are trying to get the yankees to bid more. boston is more interested in trying to get the yankees to give up as much as they can to get a pitcher that i don’t think boston wants that badly. as has been said many times before, the sox don’t want to deal with his monster contract and simply do not need him as badly as the yankees do. offering Ellsbury (w/o Lester) is just a move to get the yanks to include IPK or AJAX in their package (w/ Franchise and the Melk Man).
if the Sox really wanted Santana and are serious about offering Ellsbury, Jon Lester would not be the sticking point. they are not THAT serious in my mind, and would be content if the yanks got santana knowing that they forced them to surrender a lot in the deal.
the yankees should not go any higher than hughes, melky, plus a 2nd tier prospect for a great, but VERY EXPENSIVE 7 inning pitcher. pull it off the table if the Twins keep asking for more.
the yankees will be a better team with Santana, no doubt, but will be a more fun team to watch if they keep the kids! they may not win it all in ’08 without this trade, but it might work out for them in ’10, ’11′, ’12 if they don’t trade the farm.
Shamus:
They probably are feeding the info directly to them. Just like they fed the info to Olney that they won the bidding for Matsuzaka. The fact of the matter is it was true and my guess is this is true as well.
it does not matter what Yankee fans or assorted blogs think about the offer. If the Twins like it…they are the only ones who matter.
don’t worry everyone they will give the Yankees the opportunity to give up their entire farm system
This is starting to get stupid.
I think the Yanks and Sox are just daring each other at this point to sell off the farm.
Yep Brandon I only ate breakfast at 12.
Get this I go and get gas and it is still snowing and the moron starts to clean my windows!! I’m like what the heck are you doing?!!! So he just stops and doesn’t even wipe it clean! What a moron!! It is snowing and he is putting water on my windows!! UGH!! I hate stupid people!
Brandon:
That was great about the twins demanding Hanks’ pants.
I think the Yankees should tell the Twins they’ll throw in George’s golf cart along with Hughes, tabata and Hank’s pants.
Let’s leave the offer open umtil Monday night.
What do you think?
Headlines are very deceiving. The yankees could do the same thing. The headline would say “The Yankees would trade Joba to the Twins”, and then the story would say somewhere in the bottom. In order for Minnesota to obtain Joba they would have to include Liriano and Nathan in the deal. It’s all spin.
Jennifer- LOL
To think about something else, mlbtraderumors speculates that Xavier Nady will be made available in trades. He’ll be 29, plays 1B and corner OF (both better than Shelley) and consistently puts up an OPS a bit above .800. He won’t kill you in limited CF duty, either, I don’t think. He played there a bit in SD as recently as two years ago. If he’s actually available, I hope the Yanks kick the tires on him. He’d make me feel a lot better about the 1B situation, and though he doesn’t have Duncan’s raw power, I feel more certain about what I’d get from him. And he did hit 20 HRs last season.
Lessee…
12 pitchers
Damon
Matsui
Abreu
ARod
Jeter
Cano
Giambi
Posada
Molina
That’s 21
Nady (much 1B time, spell corner OFs, Damon in a pinch)
Duncan (righty power threat off the bench)
UT IF (Betemit, lefty power threat off bench)
Then, maybe a speedy SS/2B or a guy like Brett Gardner/Bobby Kielty (spell Damon in CF, maybe start against lefties)
That’s a pretty good roster, at least position player-wise…no?
It sounds like to me the Twins are trying to use the Yanks offers to make Boston include more because they want to deal with them instead. I still do not understand why Boston needs Santana and his $25m a year…?
Guarantee it’s still colder here and ther’s more snow on the ground…hell, they didn’t even plow my street till past noon!
We should keep Hughes. Where is Cashman who has always been a huge Hughes fan? I think Pete should conduct a poll to see how many fans actually support trading Hughes.
no no hmm, you thought i said the package would be Hughes and Cano.
The Yankees need to put their foot down so that they don’t think they have entire control of the situation. Give them a deadline. Say you accept or decline by x time or the deal is off the table. In this game you have to have the stomach to do it. Whether or not you are being truthful.
“I still do not understand why Boston needs Santana and his $25m a year…?”
they dont…they really dont
east side yankee, I just feel the Twins are playing this lovely, they know the hit the Yankees would take and how they trade on reaction but for once I think this is a situation we might have to look elsewhere, you offer Hughes to anyother team you can get another package Smith although he’s just doing his job is trying to fleece a team.
It’s like the situation w/ the window washing in a cold snowy day
Has there been any rumors of Johan’s preference of pitching for the Yankees or the Red Sox. Does one have more appeal to him off the bat without considering money yet?
If the Twins push for more because Boston supposedly added Ellsbury, the Yankees will definitely walk away and rightfully so.
KC he’s said many, many times he wants to be in NY.
In a poker game, if you don’t know who the sucker is at the table, it probably means it’s you. Right now, the sucker appears to be Hank, he should just fold and walk away.
It’s obvious that the twins are using the Sox to get more from the Yankees, not the other way around, and the Sox are cooperating, why is this not collusion?
I would rather just watch the kids grow and hope for 09 and 10 ring, rather than play this chicken sh!t game where top propects are shipped out and hope Santana stays healthy and delivers in NY for 20-25 Mill per.
The bullpen still needs to be upgraded, maybe invest there will bring a better return than trade for Santana.
Green Beret-
I think that you are just pissy because the Twins are upping the price on Santana and I have been right all along about it…You’re a poor loser, don’t try and hurt my feeling just because your angry…You wouldn’t understand the mind of a Midwesterner so don’t even try, we’re much too smart…
“no no hmm, you thought i said the package would be Hughes and Cano.”
my bad, i see it now. i misread the “/”
It seems to me like Boston actually is acting upon fear that the Yankees will get Santana. Like, not just driving up the price, but they will actually PAY him that much just so hes not in NY
Why do I get the feeling that Boston is going to end up offering Ellsbury and Lester?
Insane idea:
The Twins wait until the deadline to accept Boston’s offer. Santana then uses his NTC and then the Yankees come in and get Santana for cheap
Brandon:
You’re right . I don’t blame Smith, in fact he should win executive of the year. He should have no leverage whatsoever:
The Twins are not going to pay Santana
He has a NTC
He wants a huge salary
He has been able to make monkeys of both the Sox and the Yanks…Good for him. The Yankee mistake was they should have realized that offering Hughes was not going to be enugh. They are too smart for this…they knew that the Twins would shop it to the Sox. They should have demanded tht the Twins accept the offer when they made it or no deal.
Ths Tuesday deadline deal is bs and the Twins know it…as soon as the Yankees give in and offer Horne/Tababta/Jackson they will go back to Boston
We need to end this crap now
Prefer Ellsbury to Hughes? If they are that irrational, there is no way to do a deal. Melky is 2 years YOUNGER than Ellsbury and has proven himself to be a solid major leaguer, offensively and defensively, with unknown additional upside. Ellsbury is nothing more than a younger Crisp. So to value him even above Melky is ridiculous. And THEN the Yankees offer the pitcher who proved himself under pressure of a season-ending game in the play-offs and was great before and after his injury (once he gained his arm strength back) who would occupy the spot behind Liriano. And they can take an outstanding prospect like Dan McCutchen, Melancon, Cox, etc. The Twins are either on drugs or are just trying to make the Yankees blink– again. DON’T. And don’t give anything close to this package for Haren against whom opposing batters hit .343 in Septemeber. Either stand pat or set your sights on Cabrera and make the line-up the best ever.
Brandon:
I think its clear the Santana does not prefer NY over anything. If that was the case he would pull a Ken Griffey and demand a trade to his favored team, just like Griffey demanded to be traded to the Reds
Well, it’s lookin’ like the BoSox are going to get Santana because we are too married to the idea of playing our sure-fire future hall of famers.
I guess we’ll learn to enjoy our Mark Huttons and Domingo Jeans while the Sox pile up the trophies over the next 7 years.
TRADE THE KIDS!!!! GIVE MINNY WHATEVER IS NEEDED!!!
east side yankee- absolutely he should win Exec. of the Year for 08′ if he gets this all done, I mean who else can take
1. a disgruntled SP
2. set to make $100 MIL +
3. already stated he would prefer NY
4. a World Champion team is bidding on him when they don’t need him
5. The Twins actually demanding we all raise the price
BEAT THAT SCOTT BORAS !!!!!
oh if we we’re to do this
our OF would be depleted for the next 5 -6 yrs.
New Pete post….
Is it just me or has the intellect dropped far below freezing on the blog today?
Makin the right trade:
You can’t be a Yankee fan if you believe any of what you said.
The Yankees will not allow themselves to be fleeced (I hope) for one year of Johan Santana
Fleas:
You’re so smart…what do you propose the Yankees do?
I’m surprised that the Twins allegedly like Ellsbury more then Hughes (or Bucholtz). It could be that they like Elsbury, but only in conjunction with Lester. But if that’s not the case, then I think that the Yankee package is a better deal.
One irony could be Cabrera’s ML experience …. perhaps it gave the Twins a chance to evaluate him, and dismiss him as an “impact” OF. What do they say is the greatest enemy of role players? Exposure. Milledge of the Mets also dropped in value the more he played. I think that Cabrera is a nice player, but the Twins seem to have relegated him to throw-in status, with time-in-service that brings him closer to arbitration.
Regardless of who wins this (I think the Sox will be forced to bundle Lester with Ellsbury), it’s a lot more fun than free agent signings. There’s a definite risk/reward in this process, as opposed to the simplistic dynamic of FA bidding.
Tough on the nerves, though.
East Side,
Yank fan true and blue. Prospects are not to be relied on. They should not stand in the way of getting Johan Santana. I trade Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain if I have to. No joke.
Joba rules. Please. Remember Mark Fydrych (sp?) Or Bobby Munoz?
Also, Yanks won’t get fleeced for one year of Santana. They would have a window to sign him to an extension or no deal—eee—oooo.
Where are you on the east side? I live there too. Let’s meet and talk about this over a buttermilk.
Matt
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Green Beret-
I think that you are just pissy because the Twins are upping the price on Santana and I have been right all along about it…You’re a poor loser, don’t try and hurt my feeling just because your angry…You wouldn’t understand the mind of a Midwesterner so don’t even try, we’re much too smart
____________________________________________
Not sure why you think I wouldn’t know the mind of a midwesterner (since I’m from Michigan) or what that has to do with this trade. Why would I be pissy? Once this deal started going to, I want more and, now instead of Kennedy, I want Hughes..” BS, I was ready to pull the plug. Once to get your origional price and get it upped once, and then keep going back for more…that’s it. Te crap Smith is pulling is the same crap Hill in Florida is pulling with the Angels. Twins and Florida should make a trade. What’s going to happen is what’s happening in Pittsburgh and Cinncy. Nobody will deal with ‘em or take their word on a done deal. Screw Smith and pull the plug. By the way…you haven’t been right yet.
Makin the right trade:
the prospects are for one year. They will pay Santana 20 million plus for 6-7 years.
Don’t you see it is way too much.
I live in the 90s by the 4. I get to 20 games a year and all home playff games
2007 Holidayfest starring Dickie Thon, Steve Jeltz, and Herm Winningham. 12/8 at the Holiday Inn in Allentown.
Ultimate satisfaction would be Twins announcing that they accept the Red Sox offer only to have Santana invoke his NTC because he can’t get Dice K money Plus.
further damaging is the Yankees walk away, get Haren, then the Twins are unable to unload Santana at the deadline.
Leaving Santana a free agent to sign with the Yankees next year.
Very wishfull thinking but would laugh my freakin ass off!!!!!!!!
I can’t wait until this is over, one way or the other, so I can begin to deal with the repurcussions of each possibility.
For god’s sake, I hope the right thing is done here and we stand pat with the team we have, continue to build our young core, and build another dominant team for years and years to come….the way it should be done.
Here is my stance on Bedard.
The Mets want Bedard, we could make a better package than the mets. I will only suggest going after Bedard if we can keep Phil, I REFUSE to trade Phil to a AL EAST team, I will give IPK,Melky,Gonzalez for Bedard. Thats it.
I like being optimistic too, but could you really see Johan using his NTC not to go to the Red Sox, I think if he was smart, he would realize that he could get more money with th Yankees if he waived it…however, he has a choice to make.
Money- using his clause
Win- going to redsox
I’ve been saying it all week. Why are you so concerned with the money side of things? Wake up.. do you not realize the value of the Yankees corporation is over a BILLION dollars. In cane you don’t know that means “one thousand millions”.
Maybe you have a major in economics that I don’t know about but why don’t you stop sounding like an idiot with phrases like, “It’s too much money” or at least wait until you become the CFO of Yankees, LLC. before you make statements based on economics.
Why do I have this feeling that you probably don’t even have a savings account?
Heh..
Fleas:
I dont care about money…I know the Yankees have plenty of it. Its the prospects.
Dont talk about things you don’t know. My guess would be with a stupid name like flea you have less than a savings account
LOL
You still haven’t said what the Yankees should trade genius or are you still waiting for the great BOBcat to tell you what to think
east side yankee,
Maybe you go back and read the twenty other posts that I have written before you decided to grace us with your brilliance.
“Dont talk about things you don’t know. My guess would be with a stupid name like flea you have less than a savings account”
I think you just contradicted yourself and made yourself look like a hypocrite, especially since you tried to make an assumption right after you said, “Don’t talk about things you don’t know”.
Again, thanks for allow us to read the brilliant posts that come out of your genius mind.