Plenty to do for Yankees in Nashville
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 02, 2007 
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Here is an list of what the Yankees need to handle in Nashville:
Johan Santana: Deal or no deal? The Twins can get Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera, but not Ian Kennedy. That seems to be the state of affairs at the moment. The Twins will try to turn this into a Red Sox-Yankees bidding war but Cashman and Theo Epstein are smarter than that. If the Yankees keep Kennedy and Alan Horne, it’s a good deal. If not, it’s bad.
All sides are spinning here. The latest out of Minnesota is that the Twins are willing to keep Santana and take the draft picks when he leaves as a free agent. The Red Sox are sending out word that they would trade Jacoby Ellsbury. The Yankees are making noise about a deadline.
Believe what you will. Much of it is just postering. The Yankees and Red Sox both want Santana but would relish making the other team pay a high price for him. If the Yankee trade away Hughes, Cabrera and Kennedy plus spend $150 million on a new deal for Santana, they become older and less financially flexible. The Red Sox would welcome that. The same is true of the Yankees. Sure, send Lester and Ellsbury to Minnesota and drop another $100 million on a pitcher. Our offense will still mash and you’re stuck with Coco Crisp.
If not Santana: Then who? Danny Haren is Plan B. But dealing with Billy Beane is no picnic.
Bullpen: Putting Joba Chamberlain in the rotation opened a huge hole in the pen. The Yankees badly need help here. They’re fooling themselves if they think Kyle Farnsworth can rebound. Luis Vizcaino is a free agent as well. They also need a lefty. To me, this is a far bigger problem than the rotation.
First base: Let’s see, they have Andy Phillips, Jason Giambi, Shelley Duncan, Wilson Betemit and maybe even Juan Miranda, who tore up the Arizona Fall League. Might they want Mark Loretta, too? Keep in mind that Jorge Posada will be playing here at some point.
Sign on the dotted line: They still haven’t officially announced the deals for Mo and A-Rod.
Andy Pettitte: His agents, the wily Hendricks Brothers, will be in Nashville. Maybe Hammerin’ Hank Steinbrenner can be of use here. This is where you come up with the Pettitte Family Plan.
I’m off to Nashville. Check in later for updates.
Its certainly going to be a fun time with all this going on.
“Bullpen: Putting Joba Chamberlain in the rotation opened a huge hole in the pen. The Yankees badly need help here. They’re fooling themselves if they think Kyle Farnsworth can rebound. Luis Vizcaino is a free agent as well. They also need a lefty. To me, this is a far bigger problem than the rotation.”
EXACTLY
And didn’t that massive choke-job by Wang show you guys that the Yanks desperately need a legit number one starter?
I was hoping.. note, “I say hoping” ..that we get Santana and convince Pet to come back. If that is the case, let Joba stay in the BP as Mo’s setup man. If Mo doesn’t have his dominance, well than let Mo setup for Joba. No ego’s allowed.
Vizcaino coming back does absolutely nothing for me. Edwar does even less. Farnsworth? Well, I am holding on hopes that he was unhappy with Torre and may give us what he has the potential to.
Who else does that leave? I saw some good things from Jose Veras, but that doesn’t say much.
Rebecca:
You mean Santana CAN’T come in from the bullpen to relieve himself?
(Did that just sound bad?)
Mitchell:
That is almost as disturbing as the naked pull ups.
“You mean Santana CAN’T come in from the bullpen to relieve himself?”
Like Manny did behind the wall in LF in Fenway?
Rebecca:
You mean Santana CAN’T come in from the bullpen to relieve himself?
(Did that just sound bad?)
I would hope any relieving of himself would be done in the bathrooms or in the bullpen at the least. Coming on the field to relieve oneself is not very gentlemanlike behavior.
I’m really tired of the waiting game.. don’t know about you guys.
On another note, I believe that if the Yanks get Santana and Pettitte resigns, Joba goes back into the BP for one more year.
Santana/Wang/Pettitte/Moose/IPK – SP Viz/Farns/Joba/Mo – RP
Sounds like 100 wins to me.
I doubt that Wang would do a repeat of his playoffs poor performance. I bet he still had some issues with his fingernail and some delivery problems that rocked him. Eiland might help Wang. Remember, Gator wasn’t being brought back even before Torre was decided on. I loved Gator as a pitcher, but maybe he just couldn’t coach well.
I don’t think we need to make this deal for Santana. So what if we play next year without a Legit #1, we will make the playoffs and then anything can happen. At the end of next seasons I’d say there is a 50% chance that Santana doesn’t get traded and then we can just outbid everyother team for his services, and keep strong defense in center with Melky, and still retain Hughes.
I don’t understand why no one looks at Eric Bedard, or possibly trading for Nathan instead of Santana
As “Bad to the bone” plays over the sound system. That would win ballgames.
December 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Rebecca:
You mean Santana CAN’T come in from the bullpen to relieve himself?
(Did that just sound bad?)
I would hope any relieving of himself would be done in the bathrooms or in the bullpen at the least. Coming on the field to relieve oneself is not very gentlemanlike behavior.
__________________________________________________
To paraphrase John Kruk: “Lady, we ain’t gentlemen…we’re ballplayers.”
Ray totally great point if we get johan and big IF Pettite comes back you have Johan, Andy, Wang, Moose, Kennedy then that leaves Joba in the pen for another year then you move him up the following year after you lose Moose and Andy for sure.
How ’bout them Jets?
Have fun in Nasville! Try to find Cash or Hank and talk them out of dealing hughes!
You know, if most of you heard me actually talk, you’d probably be appalled at how unladylike I am…I curse like a mother. I mean, a girl from Jersey.
Posturing, I think, not postering…
I still love you.
If Ellsbury is really in the Boston package with Lester, then the next step is seeing if Boston and Johan can work out an extension (which I think they can’t).
The Yankees should not top that package and go above Hughes and Melky. They can add a 3rd player, but it can’t be anyone huge.
I want Johan bad, but I also know when the Yankees are being fleeced.
I don’t think the Red Sox are really making this deal. I just don’t see it. It makes no sense to them to give up positional prospects and pitching prospects and add to a strength they already have and on top of that, set the high bar for what a starting pitcher is worth in this day and age.
I don’t buy it.
Hughes and Melky is a very fair trade for Johan. If Minny balks at that, then walk away.
I wonder if Hughes and Melky can get us Oswalt.
Pete, I agree with you completely. The bullpen is still there, like the gorilla who won’t go away. And the Krazy one is not the answer. We shouldn’t be lulled by his resurgence at the end of the season. If he was fixable, he would’ve been fixed by now.
Especially with SP like IPK, Moose, and Hughes (maybe) on pitch counts, we need guys who can reliably pitch middle relief.
Don’t think Baltimore would want to trade Bedard to a team in same division and Nathan prob wants to close not set up. Worth a look if Santana and Haren don’t pan out.
I’m glad I was just able to get this thread off to a happy, gooey start.
Raymagnetic, maybe 100 wins, but maybe still a loss in the playoffs to a team playing 1-9 baseball and not a collection of mercenaries.
Joba has to stay in the rotation, folks.
Just got done watching my Miami Dolphins and the Jets. I think Don Shula just shot himself.
Sorry, Kyle, but Johnny Cash and Hank Sr. have gone to the big Grand Ol’ Opery Stage in the sky.
Oh, btw, Kill Schill, wherever you are, you owe me a $10 Amazon card.
fir3r0s3@yahoo.com.
At the end of every year, they come out with that list of “Words of the year,” guess what this year that word on top of the list is …….
POSTURING
I’m sick of this word.
Now, if Cashman could swing a deal with Faith Hill and Shania Twain while he’s in Nashville, he’d get GM of the Century
Yeah the Jets kicked butt and took names. Maybe instead of getting 2 points, they should have given 20.
Rebecca what was the bet?
bumblebee:
1) Hughes was injured last year; as it got into September/October, Hughes was finally getting back to full-strength. Healthy, his fastball sits around 93-94 with some movement and, most importantly, with precision. Hughes can put that fastball precisely where he wants it, and that’s what makes him so dangerous.
2) Melky is decidedly overrated, both offensively *and* defensively (Damon arguably has better range in center, as a matter of fact). Melky’s pretty much average in almost every sense of the word *except* with that cannon of an arm. Melky *does* have upside, and that’s what really gives him value. He’s young, and that means there is potential room for improvement, however slight it might be.
3) Wang isn’t a legitimate “ace” starter (in terms of a shut-down power pitcher), though he has been one of the top fifteen pitchers in the American League since 2006, but that’s not an absolute necessity going into the playoffs. And it’s really hard to say he “choked”, after he carried the Yankees to a game one victory last year against the Tigers. His playoff results are decidedly mixed, but that’s almost assuredly due to a small sample size. Randy Johnson had some pretty miserable playoff numbers until the 2001 postseason, yet no one would deny he wasn’t the type of “ace” starter teams coveted over the last decade (while in his late-20s/throughout his 30s). Even Pettitte has a decidedly mixed playoff record; there were games (2007, 1996) where he was absolutely on, and there were games he threw away (2001).
Anything can happen in the playoffs, due to small sample size. A player can get hot, or a player can get cold. Kenny Rodgers and Jeff Weaver can come out of nowhere and pitch their hearts out for a month, or a player like Wang can just have a bad week. And that’ll be their post-season legacy, good or bad, because of people’s need for a coherent narrative, and the need for goats and heroes.
That is to say, I will accept completely that there are, and will be, “clutch” moments and “choke” moments, but I don’t think anyone will ever be able to convince me that there are such a thing as “clutch” *players* and “choke” *players*.
As a Miami Dolphin fan, please Jet fans, don’t flatter yourselves. Our starting running back was a guy named Jesse Chatman. We started a guy named Cleo at QB half the year. We royally, royally suck.
Eli….intercepted. Ouch.
jennifer: A $10 amazon gift card–I took the Jets, he took the Dolphins.
Sox may be legitimate in this because there are no guarantees Shill and Wake will stay healthy next year and after that they are prob. done anyway. Don’t see them going 6/150 milldo though.
Fleas:
In response to your insult on the last thread.
not only do I have a savings account but I have one thats big enough to but a season ticket package to the Yankees every year (that includes all home playoff games too jerk)
If you disagree with my opinion attack the opinion, you’ve got a lot of nerve personally attacking my intelligence…you don’t know me
“I don’t understand why no one looks at Eric Bedard, or possibly trading for Nathan instead of Santana”
When you say “no one”, who are you talking about? The Yanks have inquired about Bedard, like many teams.
As for trading for Nathan instead of Santana…I don’t think the Twins are working deals for Nathan just yet. There was noise that NL central teams were looking at him. The Yanks want to make a play for a starter before they see what chips they have left to play for a setup guy.
A lot more teams can afford to play in the Nathan sweepstakes, which will drive up the cost. The same can be said for the Haren situation…it is NOT going to cost teams less (in terms of prospects) to get Haren than it is to get Santana. Why? He’s cheap for several years, so teams like the Reds or the M’s or even the DRays could afford to get in on it. Certainly the Dodgers could, if they don’t wind up trading for Cabrera.
“Now, if Cashman could swing a deal with Faith Hill and Shania Twain while he’s in Nashville, he’d get GM of the Century”
Is Shania a lefty?
G. Love, it’s not setting a bar for all pitchers, but for pitching stars and position players on their own team. The players may not be able to do much about their contracts now, but, the time will come, and the “hometown discounts in money and years” will stop. Think that Lowell won’t think about getting stiffed by the Sox after the season and post season he had?
Bartrap, she can go anyway she wants.
Rebecca – I may have taken the Dolphins too this week. Glad it wasn’t me making that bet…
“That is to say, I will accept completely that there are, and will be, “clutch†moments and “choke†moments, but I don’t think anyone will ever be able to convince me that there are such a thing as “clutch†*players* and “choke†*players*.”
Well, I still believe that there are people who respond better to pressure than others. But, there are things that can be done to ameliorate pressure and allow more players to put themselves in a position to succeed.
Personally, I think the biggest problem for the Yankees nowadays is the attitude that, if you don’t win a world series, the entire season has been a waste. You can’t be proud of, say, coming back from an injury-ridden 11-19 start to make the playoffs unless you then go on to win it all. You can’t be proud of anything you do unless you win the whole she-bang. Mussina was quoted last offseason as saying that he thought being in two world series and going to the postseason every year was an accomplishment of which he was proud…and fans called him a “loser” for saying that.
Frankly, I think that this attitude makes that clubhouse tighten up every postseason and makes guys play scared. Jeter, Posada…these are “clutch guys”, right? They choked REPEATEDLY this postseason. Other teams look like they’re still having fun playing October baseball…the Yankees haven’t for several years now.
8-2 so far this week! Missed GNB/Dallas and Det/Minn.
I PICKED BUFFALO AND ST. LOUIS!
I rule.
right now the jets are the best football team in ny eventho they play in nj
Whozat- Amen. These videogame-like trade scenarios that get posted on here are clear proof of what you’re saying. We still have some prospects left?! Let’s get Nathan! and Haren! Andruw Jones can play center!
We can’t just sit back and watch an actual collection of talent gel, then win. We always have to have that extra little toy.
What’s wrong with Jersey?
whozat:
great commentary. you’re absolutely right
excuse me did I hear this right ?
Does anyone really think Johan wants to spend the next 6 years pitching in Fenway ???? The place is a nightmare for lefties……Yanks should just pull out of these talks with the Twins…..Their offer is more than enough….The best thing would be for the Twins to hold onto him and then chase him as a FA…..Enough is enough already….Shame Pettite hasn’t commited one way or the other…If he had announced that he’s returning then Cashman has some leverage….The Yanks are being ambushed by Minn. & Boston……Saw Ian Kennedy at the USC-UCLA game yesterday….I always thank him for knocking out my Little League out of the Playoffs back in 97….He also handed beat our HS team twice in one season back in 2002….Naturally he hopes that he & Phil stay with the Yanks……What the Twins are asking for is too much now….It’s really about what Santana wants and where he wants to go…..
If Sox offer Ellsbury AND Lester in a package, then it’s a done deal. But it appears the package is Ellsbury OR Lester, as I read it. Yanks should get this deal donw wit Hughes, Melky and Horne.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/200.....ct-lester/
I think when all is said and done, Santana will stay in Minnesota. The Twins are too smart to let him go. They will keep him for one more year and get some picks for the next year. And from there, the Yaks can pick him up since he really wants to pitch in NY. That’s just what I think. The Yanks put up a good package for Santana, yet, the Twins are balking at the offer. If they really wanted to trade Santana, they would have already. Hughes WILL be a number one starter some day.
we have to keep what we have, i.e. Hughes, younger and can be developed nicely here with Girardi and Eiland. Now that we have all this cash tied up with AROD’s K, I mean come on, really, this is just absurd! We need Melky’s young marvelous arm in center, hopefully his bat will come around; and I, like many other fans, are way curious about watching the kids in the rotation this upcoming season; I don’t see why we are even looking like we’re going back to old ways again , when we KNOW they don’t work!!!! Gosh, doesn’t Joe Girardi have a website and we can pleaad with him?
Pls, don’t bring that football crap into this baseball discussion.
How do the twins evaluate the strengths of their own farm system? And do they see Ellsbury as a “special†player?
I think those are the two issues this is getting down to.
For most teams a package centered around Hughes vs. Ellsbury wouldn’t be much to think about given the lack of pitching in baseball and the overall talent level of the players.
But the overwhelming strength of the Minnesota system is young pitching. Losing Santana particularly after Garza would be very difficult but they may be willing to ride out next year with the young staff they have.
They really don’t have many position player prospects. Ben Revere may be their best one.
If they could get Ellsbury and Lowerie in one trade I could see how they would be interested in that.
The yankee offer is the better one. The Twins will regret not getting back a frontline pitching prospect for Santana. But their orgnaizational needs may win out.
One things for clear – Boston has been in this the whole time. They see this as the kill shot on the yankees for the next 5 years. They want santana and they’ll pay him.
They Yankees were not bidding against themselves in putting hughes into the deal.
jets would beat the giants right now (why doesnt NY have a football team in NY?}
I think the Twins will decide whether or not a CF or pitcher is a priority in terms of return and that will determine which package they go with. I think they would take Hughes over Lester, but Ellsbury over Melky. So in a way, the two deals are a bit like comparing apples and oranges.
If the Sox do include them both, then I concur, it is a done deal. But the Yankees IMHO should stay far away from offering Kennedy or Horne in addition to Hughes. They’ve got to know when to walk away, and I am sure they do. Horne is supposed to be a work in progress with a very high ceiling.
Again, I hope the trade falls apart and he plays in Minnesota forever, because his presence on the Sox shifts the balance in the AL East in such an extreme way (hands down, Red Sox advantage) for the foreseeable future. I can’t say with any certainty he would choose NY over Boston as a free agent. Because if it’s about winning now, they certainly have an argument in their favor up at Fenway.
I could see Juan Miranda being our first baseman next season; platooning with Shelley Duncan.
Pat M,
How did Kennedy sound? Did he seem like he thought he’d get dealt this off season? Seem worried? Relieved that he’d been pulled from the deal? I’d guess being dealt is one thing – being dealt for Santana another.
You’ve blogged before about seeing him since he was in little league. That must be such an interesting experience to watch the entire arc of a players career, particularly one so promising and drafted by the yankees.
How do we know what or if any offers have been made ?
Has anyone heard a word from the Cash Man or even Hank?
No one knows what or if anything will happen this week.
Who thought Arod would pull what he did? The rumors are fun but all speculation. Who knows, maybe the Twins rookie GM will get offended when Hank blows smoke in his eyes.
The Bills play in NY, fyi.
my man don’t bring that weak excuse we would b-lines at your QB, your offensive line is weak, you beat one big team in Pittsburgh, get whooped by Dallas and smack Miami like you should, Aaron Ross and Plaxico Burress healthy would give both your respective lines big trouble.
Oh and by the way, the Jets tried to move to NYC, but James Dolan of Cablevision infamy led the fight to kill their stadium. That’s why there is no NY football team in NYC.
so whatever happened to BOS saying Ellsbury was untouchable?
“CASH – IT’S TIME TO PULL OUT OF THE TALKS. IF BY TOMORROW MORNING, THE TWINS STILL HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THE PRESENT DEAL AND KEEP INSISTING ON ANOTHER TOP PLAYER, AND GOING BACK BETWEEN BOSTON AND NY, THE YANKEES NEED TO CUT BAIT, AND PULL OUT.”
THEY WILL BE FINE WITH WHAT THEY GOT, MAYBE GET JOE BLATAN OR HAREN. MOST PRESENT NEED ARE GOOD RELIEVERS THROUGH GOOD TRADES (DAMON, FARNSWORTH, IGAWA, ETC.) THE MEETINGS START TOMORROW!!!
Then let’s go Bills!
joe blatan?
I say we need Shelly Duncan in the lineup too, he brings that rookie energy that has been missing and the vets even said was a breathe of fresh air!
Blanton? caps lock makes my eyes bleed.
So the Knicks would be the best bball team in NY.
The angels offered the Marlins Kendrick, Mathis, a “b” level prospect and one of Nick Adenhart/Ervin Santana. The Marlins wanted both Adenhart and Santana
Obviously the Marlins GM and the Twins GM went to the same “how to fleece teams ” school.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
I meant to say Joe Blanton. He is a workhorse, and eats a lot of innings which they will need with three young pitchers who can’t pitch 200 innings.
that’s not all blanton eats.
eli is a deer in a headlight.
babee rooooth -
Funny! Hey, remember David Wells? He was the same, and look how good he was…
his big brother gave him a wicked inferiority complex.
ET,
What about my namesake?
looks like CC ate em both
looks like dinner time in here
That goes w/o saying! How about David Ortiz? He is not exactly your athletic specimen…
No deal if it includes Hughes.
The Yankees should quit the Santana negotiations immediately; the simple fact that they were even willing to include Philip Hughes in the discussion represents and enormous concession from the Yanks. That the Twins still demand more talent on top of Hughes and the Yankees’ starting CF indicates their unreasonable approach to the negotiations, a situation that cannot be remedied by any form of appeasement.
The Yankees should keep their prospects and Cabrera and look elsewhere for one more starting pitcher to provide league-average innings while Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy all adjust to the league and their innings-limits. And how to remedy the bullpen? The same way they did last season – with power arms from the minor leagues. Alan Horne should be given every chance to catch on as a long relief man and spot starter coming out of Spring Training. Humberto Sanchez should be rehabbed with a Chamberlain-like role in mind for the second half of the season. Steven White, Ross Ohlendorff, Edwar Rameirez, Kevin Whelan, Justin Pope – far better to give these young talents a chance to contribute than to overpay for middle relievers or gut the farm in trades. The Yankees need gentle tweaking this offseason, not a major overhaul.
I don’t think the Yankees are doing much about the pen because 1. no ones really out there and 2. they have some in house candidates that could help.
Stop dissing Jersey, okay?
It’s a great state. Our governor drives 90 on the Parkway and doesn’t wear a seatbelt.
But at least our basketball and hockey teams can win crap on occasion
CB…Only spoke to him for about a minute….He really believes that if given the chance that he, Phil & Joba would post some very impressive numbers for the club….Last season callups went along way for boosting their self confidences……The three of them see themselves being the foundation to a outstanding rotation….Pretty level headed kid….I personally love Santana, but I rather hope he becomes available as a FA……The thought of Sanatan going to Boston is a scarey one indeed…But as I pointed out before, does he really want to pitch there ??? And besides if he really wants NY, then maybe there’s hope….Maybe the Holy Trinity of Phil, Joba & Ian stays intact and Santana is ours next year at this time……
“Stop dissing Jersey, okay?”
Never!
Rebecca–Optimist Prime December 2nd, 2007 at 5:20 pm
“But at least our basketball and hockey teams can win crap on occasion”
When was the last time we won anything?
New Jersey Nets:
Conference champs, 02 + 03.
Made the playoffs every year since 02.
Have the Knicks made the playoffs any of those years? (I honestly don’t know)
New Jersey Devils:
Stanley Cup 1995, 2000, 2003, Conference champs 2001.
Have not missed the playoffs since 1996–almost as long as the Yankees!
Oh, and we have Marty.
There’s a better than even chance Santana can be had as a free agent after 2008. If the Twins don’t take a Hughes, Melky and 2nd level prospect package by Monday, withdraw it and go after Haren.
If Melky is dealt, I would like to see Cash$ find out what the Royals want for David DeJesus. He has been surpassed by Joey Gaithright in CF for KC. He could be the legit leadoff the Yankees have lacked since Mickey Rivers.
Krazy Kyle’s got to go….Baltimore? any takers? Would like to see the Yanks go after the Pirates’ Damaso Marte or Colorado’s Brian Fuentes. The Yanks also have Beam, Britton, Henn, Igawa, Ohlendorf, Sanchez and Veras from their 40-man roster and Claggett, Manning, Pope and Whalen in AAA and AA respectively.
I agree, the BP needs more work than SP and a starting rotation of Pettitte (if he doesn’t retire), Wang, Hughes, IPK and Mussina is serviceable. Chamberlain can plug into the rotation or as setup man in the BP.
BTW: Who’s on First?
New Jersey Nets,
The Devils won the Stanley Cup in 95 00 and 03
Can someone help me out…
if minny waits until the trade deadline to move johan, does the other team hhave the 72 hour window to negotiate a deal with him? and if they don’t come to terms can johan say no to the trade?
Mel
Yes
and
Yes.
Pull out of the Santana trade. Check in on the Padres and see if Jake Peavey can be had
The Devils won the Stanley Cup when the Rangers where bad. The Rangers are kicking ass nowadays. Move over Jersey.
Guess Ellsbury is in but without Lester.
Thank you Pat. I really hope the yanks pull out and boston cant come to terms with minny and we just deal with this at the trade deadline. I feel the red sox wont give him a 6/150 deal during the season cuz beckett wont be to pleased…i duno maybe its just wishful thinking
While we all know the comments Santana made about loving New York, why is everyone assuming he wont pitch in boston? While it may or may not be his first choice, i highly doubt he would give up a chance to pitch for a competitive team who is going to give him $150 million plus.
on the topic of the extension, why are most people here assuming that boston wont give him the money he is going to want? Boston knows what its going to take to get Johan to drop his NTC and unless they are just doing this to get the yankees to up their bid, then im sure they must be prepared to pay Johan the kind of money he is going to want and deserves, and in turn renegotiate Becketts contract accordingly.
I am part of the camp that hopes we dont overpay for Johan now because we may be able to get him as a free agent. However, while it would surely be sad to see Hughes and Melky go, as soon as Johan dons the pinstripes and pitches dominantly in the big spot, then it will all be worth it.
It just means Santana doesn’t have to go through waivers first. More than likely with less than half the season to go, Santana will not negotiate an extension with Free Agency right around the corner. There’s a better chance he’ll hit paydirt with more teams in play for his services than just negotiating with one. But even still, he’ll have a limited 12 team no trade – so if that team is on his no trade, he’d still have to ok it.
this reminds me a bit of mussina. 29 or thereabouts, gotta have, end up overpaying for not much, this time with player cost in addition to money.
santana’s numbers were terrible second half. anyone know the details? was he good and the twins bad? or is he on the cusp of arm collapsure?
in the gut trading melky and hughes hurts. hard to imagine both not maturing into productive players who are inexpensive and balance the arod money, and shortly more jeter money.
i wonder how many more games santana buys you over hughes. santana and the young pitchers and you’re cooking with gas. this wreaks a bit of the old and intermittent yankee mentality of trying to buy certainty, when in fact all they do is sell off energy and overpay for what turns into fading mediocrity.
200 innings x 9 years scares me.
I hope someone in the Yankee brass is reading these comments and understands that many fans don’t want a trade for Santana that gives up so very much.
The cost of Santana will be enormous — in terms of players, money to Santana, and money to high-priced players who replace those traded. For a fraction of that cost the Yanks ought to be able to get a couple of outstanding relievers.
BTW I wonder how well Jeff Karstens will pitch in 2008. He was terrific before his injury in 2007 and he has pitched well in the Baseball World Cup.
Pat M.,
That’s good to hear. You can tell whenever Joba, Phil or Ian talk about the future how much they feel attached to the yankees. You can tell that they feel like they have the opportunity to do something special, to do it together and to do it for the most storied franchise in sports.
I hope the twins do something stupid and wind up keeping santana for the season. My gut feeling is that if Phil and Ian start out in the majors they are going to do very, very well and will become more valuable than what the twins could hope to get for 4-5 month rental of santana.
I’d be more than happy if the yankees threw $175 million or whatever his way next offseason and put him alongside the three kids and wang.
I do think santana would be ok with going to boston if they pay him. don’t think the twins would have gone this far along without knowing santana wouldn’t invoke his no trade.
On another random subject – did you happen to see Chatsworth play last year? If so what’s your take on Moustakas and Dominguez? Is Moustakas as good as everyone says? Can he play short? How about Dominguez? Did he get lost in Moustakas’ shadow last year?
Pat:
It isn’t standard practice to negotiate an extension when a trade occurs mid-season. I would be very surprised if Santana’s agent would do that. If he gets dealt mid-season at the trading deadline I think it is a short term rental.
“oh and we have Marty”
Marty or Martha is on her way out. On the plus side, she could be on my diving team any day of the year. She is an experienced diver if you know what I mean.
hey…where there any bobcat updates recently? I’ve been gone for the past day and a half…
It sounds like the final offers are on the table… we’ll see in a couple of days.
East side
Didn’t say he or his agent would take an extension only that a 72 hour window would be an option. Santana will have the no trade still in place so why wouldn’t his agent at least listen to an extension offer before saying no to either the extension or the trade.
“this reminds me a bit of mussina. 29 or thereabouts, gotta have, end up overpaying for not much, this time with player cost in addition to money.”
This couldn’t be more off the mark. You can say mussina “didn’t come up big” or whatever you want in the playoffs, etc. but there is no way to say he wasn’t a great value on that first contract he signed.
Many people in baseball consider the first deal mussina signed to be one of the most successful free agent pitching signings in history.
Mussina stayed healthy and pitched to a very high level throughout that contract. He was very productive and threw a ton of innings.
You can knock Mussina for not being Pedro Martinez good I suppose – but he was a terrific signing.
“I hope someone in the Yankee brass is reading these comments and understands that many fans don’t want a trade for Santana that gives up so very much.”
I’d like to hope the front off at least has an inkling of that opinion, which I think is being shared by an increasing number of Yankee fans each day.
Jax:
Then explain to me why we are two points behind the Rangers AFTER losing Gomez and Rafalski, two of our best players? And Elias playing like crapola as well?
Go NYR: Get back to me when Lundger has 500 wins. Or 94 shut outs. Or three Stanley Cups.
Mel
I proposed the same thing earlier today. I said that it might be our storybook ending for how this thing could play out. I agree the odds are slim of it going down that way but I’m a sucker for the happily ever after of the whole thing.
As far as the whole 1B situation, the Pirates are supposedly shopping Xavier Nady. Hes a right handed bat with good power, plays good D, could fill in at the OF corners if needed. And the Pirates probably wouldn’t ask for the moon for him. Maybe we could pick up ham and Damaso Marte.
I hope that if we don’t get Santana we don’t overpay for Haren or Bedard. Keep the Big 3 and sign a free agent next year. Hopefully the talent will be much better.
Mike Mussina came up ABSOLUTELY huge in Game 3 of the 2001 ALDS, too. Quite probably the greatest postseason game he ever pitched.
i second you E-Roc on the Juan Miranda/Shelley Platoon @ 1st base. Our two headed, lefty righty platoon would jack 40 combined easy.
We won’t get Bedard. The O’s won’t trade him within the division, unless we way way overpay, which (i sure hope) we won’t. Haren could be as much (or more) pricey in terms of talent, because of both his contract and Mr. Beane.
Santana is amazing. Reference those stats posted about his last four years if you want. It’s not overpaying to feel pain. For Santana, we’ll have to.
I’m ready for this to be done, so we can start speculating about the vacancies opened by the trade (CF) and we get then we’ll think about first base and we can get nervous about our bullpen and what’s available.
I love how baseball season never ends anymore.
fred, moose was def a good signing for us, go back and look at the numbers(dont tell me he hasnt won us a WS, bc a lot of other guys havent either)
oh and santana had 1 bad month(sept)…so take it easy
and hes been a starter for only 4 years, so more like 200 innings x 4 years…
Stefan Weaver (wait…..wasn’t the name of a pitching prospect from the 80′s? can’t wait for Ray Fontenot to post):
Judging from what we’ve read, I don’t think the Yankee brass are exactly excited as to the prospect of trading Hughes for Santana either. They seem to feel they HAVE to have him and keep him away from the Sox.
The only pro-Santana argument I’m willing to accept at this point is the only involving the evolving innings cap on the three rookies and how that could potentially wreak havoc with the rotation and bullpen come summer. That’s the only thing that rings true to me from any of these arguments. No “Hughes is an unproven commodity” or “true ace” garbage. We’ll have a “true ace” once these kids rise up, get the experience, and grab that title themselves.
Blunkness: Never say never when the idiot making the decisions is Peter Angelos. Maybe Bedard will have a child out of wedlock or forget to say grace before dinner.
It says somethng when I spend more time speculating on the 2008 NY Yankees than I do on my thesis.
Namely, that my time management skills are absolutley shot.
If Melky goes and they shift Damon to CF…that opens up DH for Giambi. So, in essence, our line-up goes unchanged with the exception of having the 1B hitting in the ninth spot.
Rebecca: My wife found every damn thing she could think of to proscratinate on when finishing her dissertaion. Don’t feel too bad.
“We’ll have a “true ace†once these kids rise up, get the experience, and grab that title themselves.”
Maybe, if the Yankees are lucky.
Since the Sox added Ellsbury while removing Lester, why don’t the Yankees offer Cano and remove Hughes and Melky?
Is Ellsbury a better fit for the Twins than Cano?
Why can’t the Yankees keep Hughes and replace Cano with Freddy Sanchez?
Phil: I look forward to watching Manny Ramirez score from 1st on a single to center field under your plan.
Phil: Luck is part of winning championships as well.
Mitch 11: it is not MY plan. It is the current Yankees plan, prior to roster changes, should the Santan move go through.
Mitch 11: Yes, luck is part of winning championships…however, playing the percentages is better than being lucky in the long run.
If Cabrera is dealt, NYY should check and see what KC wants
for DwJesus AND Ross Gload. Gload plays a really good 1st base, plays a good corner outfield. He’s also a good line drive hitter with some power. They’ve got to find a place to play Billy Butler.
Mitchell’s: Yeah, but this is undergrad stuff!
The strength of an outfielder’s arm is really the least thing to worry about.
You could have a cannon of an arm but does it really help you if you can’t get to any fly balls?
The Phil who is posting above is not me.
And you should always take range over a strong arm. Getting to the ball is most important and can’t be mitigated. A weak arm can be dealt with, to a degree, by having the cut-off men go out deeper into the OF.
Angelos will be the major hold up in trading Bedard. He’s the reason why the Bedard situation will be a circus.
Ask the Angeles how easy it is to deal with Angelos. That deal they offered last year for Tejada was a great one.
But Angelos stepped in at the last moment and over ruled his baseball people. He wanted more for Tejada than Eric Aybar and Ervin Santana. Now they won’t even get close to that.
As bad as Angelos is at baseline he’ll be much worse in dealing with the Yankees.
Everyone who wants to deal for Bedard assumes that Angelos is going to make a rational, detached decision based on talent. He’s never done that, especially with the yankees. This was a man who had two guys split the job of G.M. as co-equals. It doesn’t matter that McPhail is in baltimore now.
The Yankees will not be able to acquire Eric Bedard in a trade unless they make an unbelievably stupid trade.
Also – while Bedard has great stuff he never, ever stays healthy. And he’s a extreme introvert – hates the media. He may do very poorly in new york. very poorly.
Master Wangkee
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Since the Sox added Ellsbury while removing Lester, why don’t the Yankees offer Cano and remove Hughes and Melky?
Is Ellsbury a better fit for the Twins than Cano?
Why can’t the Yankees keep Hughes and replace Cano with Freddy Sanchez
_____________________________________________________-
Exactly what should the Yankees be giving up to Pittsburgh for the ’06 Batting champion? They’re worse to deal with than the Marlins and Twins.
I share some of the same concerns about Bedard.
GreenBeret 7
Ross gload would be a very interesting pickup. He worked the Yankee pitching over during those series we had with KC
Does he hit that well against other teams? or is he just a yankee killer?
Does anyone feel that if the Red Sox are willing to trade Ellsbury and Bucholltz and/or Lester that it is time to jsut walk away from Santana and go after Haren?
CB: I’ll second that. Living here in DC/Baltimore, the papers are full of moves Angelos has nixed in the O’s organization on a whim.
Rebecca,
You should bet someone on whether or not Eli & the Gang can get through this drive without a turnover.
Green Beret:
Who would you prefer to keep?
Cano or Hughes and Melky together?
“Is Ellsbury a better fit for the Twins than Cano?”
Probably. Cano is going to get very expensive very fast as he enters salary arbitration.
Then Cano will hit his free agency years.
Ellsbury on the other hand will be under Minnesota’s control at $400,000 per year for several years and only then will he enter arbitration. He’s years from being prohibitively expensive.
Ellsbury is much cheaper. That’s why the twins are trading santana in the first place.
Thrill ho,
I’d love for the Red Sox to lose Buchholz and Ellsbury not to mention 150 million bucks.
Why would the Orioles trade Bedard to the Yankees? This has been brought a million times, get over it, Kazmir nor Bedard will be traded from their division rivals to the Yankees.
CB, the only person Angelos won’t trade is Brian Roberts. He’s in love with him. Baltimore has tried trading him for pitching and power twice and Angelos refused. He’s not real pleased with Bedard over some comments about the Baltimore FO being screwed up. Doubtful that he’ll trade him to NYY unless a third team is part of it and trade Bedard through them.
CB:
Who do the Yanks have to add to Cano to top Ellsbury/Lester?
mel: I’d bet against it but I don’t know either team well enough!
Gload’s a career .295 hitter, and from Brooklyn.
Personally, I’m for pulling the plug on this deal and telling Smith to shove it.
I mean at some point you just need to realize that the stakes are too high and if the red sox are willing to pony up their top prospects, we need to go after someone a little cheaper in Haren or Bedard.
Two pitchers that would certainly pitch fine in NY.
Phil,
I just don’t see how in any possible respect the yankees will land bedard. The last thing Angelos will do is make the yankees a better team. Even if it improves his team.
I do however assume that Angelos will screw up the bedard situation and bedard will leave as a free agent after 2009.
There is no good fall back plan if they don’t get santana.
Harren will be absurdly expensive to get in terms of talent because of how inexpensive he is. He’s had one excellent year but that hardly makes him a sure thing to be an “Ace.” They don’t need a good pitcher. Harren could turn out to be another Wang. That’s fine but not for what Beane is going to ask for.
Bedard – not going to happen.
Slim picking after that.
May need to wait for the 2009 free agent class.
I think if the Yankees walk away from Santana, they should stand pat – no Haren, no Bedard (no that that’s even a real possibility). Let the 3 kids show their stuff. The impressive thing about all three, to me, was that that in addition to their talent and ability, all 3 have great “make up.” They are confident and they are looking forward to the challenge. How could you go wrong with them?
The key to keeping them, though, is to protect them with a better bullpen. So they walk away from Santana a really concentrate on putting their bullpen together. Their offense is enough to cover any growing pains that could come.
Haren would cost too much in prospects. Bedard isn’t going to be traded to a division rival. If the Twins don’t like what is offered by the Yankees, then the Yankees should just say fine, see ya.
There reaches a point where enough is enough. This is pretty near to that point now.
Greenberet7
I think that a non trade is what’s going to happen, could be the best thing to happen & then make a push to acquire Johan when the Twins fall out of contention in June.
Why do I get the feeling that people don’t read comments before posting?
GB7,
I agree that Brian Roberts is stuck in that purgatory. Angelos isn’t going to let him go anywhere.
However when push comes to shove I think Angelos is completely unpredictable. Trying to trade for Bedard will be a nightmare. I know he doesn’t like Bedard but I dont’ think it will matter. After the self-desctructive interference he pulled with Tejada who knows. Baltimore deserves better.
Angelos will perceive that people want Bedard. That’ll be enough for him to get involved.
Rebecca,
I don’t know about anyone else, but I think about my response, and they’re usually a little wordy, so sometimes by the time by little ideas get posted, the can sometimes seem a little out of place, or late. Because other people have posted making my entry redundant.
Doreen – agreed.
Santana is a major difference maker. Haren would cost just as much and though he is great, isnt in the same class, isnt a lefty, and may not be the shutdown ace they really need.
I think Haren would absolutely thrive in NY, he will be expensive in terms of what the Yanks have to give up. He’s a stud pitcher.
I’m using my daughter’s laptop and I am not used to a flat keyboard. Horrible types happening – and much slower wpm.
TYPOS!
Wangkee,
Way things are going with the twins. They will ask for Cano and Hughes to top Ellsbury/ lester. But I’d guess they’d be willing to “settle” for Cano/ Kennedy.
Santana is their meal ticket for the future.
I cant imaginge bedard getting traded to us (same division)… There is a dispute, he might be 2 years away from Free agency, not 1. That changes the dynamic.
I am glad they put a date on the deal. If we don’t get Santana, we have to atleast get someone to eat some innings. I dont want to have to count on Mussina next year…
Once again – the pen is really shaky… I wonder if we will get lucky with some kids contributing in the pen… We have a ton of right handed talent in the minors…
I have no problem letting andy phillips get most of the time at first…
CB, there’s no doubt that Angelos won’t deal with Steinbrenner, which is why goimg through a third team is the only way. It can be done. Just need to find the right team.
I just hope that, should the trade happen, Santana stays healthy. Keep him away from Pavano down in Tampa!
If they ask for Cano and Hughes or are willing to settle for Cano/Kennedy- I walk away.
Buddy -
I don’t want to give up the farm, and not get a guaranteed ‘ace.’ Santana is worth the pain. No one else is. And if the Yankees aren’t going to give up Hughes + Cabrera + Kennedy + ?, for Santana, I don’t see them doing it for anyone else.
On WFAN yesterday, Jim Bowden (I know hes the idiot who overplayed his hand when he was the GM of the Nats and wound up getting nothing for Soriano)said that any team that wanted Santana would have to “overpay”
it seems that based on Minnesota’s actions he was right.
The Red Sox deal without Lester and with Elsbury is comparable to the Yankee deal. The Twins would be betting it all on one player really. Elsbury with the Sox and Hughes with the Yankees.
The Twins want someone to overpay…it may very well lead to a stalemate and the we fight it out in free agency
Has there been a Cashman siting at the winter meetings yet? I mean, I have forgotten what he looks like. Maybe someone should make a “Where’s Waldo” type book but instead of Waldo use Cash..
I see it now..
A whole bunch of Yankee Big Wigs and Cashman strategically placed in the parking lot.
Bedard is a FA at the end of 2009. Just short of service time.
From what I understand from reading articles, the Sox won’t include Lester with Ellsbury. It’s either just Ellsbury or Lester and Crisp… but no way do the Sox include Ellsbury with Lester or Buchholz. And if it is Buccholz, the Twins have to increase the returns – not just Santana.
East Side -
Bowden’s been getting around. He was on XM the other day (Fri or Sat). He said he wishes he had the resources to go after a Santana himself. He also said Santana is worth what has to be given up to get him.
The Proctor-Betemit trade looks increasingly dumb at this point.
Anybody know if Betemit can start the year in AAA?
Trading two front line starters doesn’t really help. It leaves NYY still short starters, because the earliest that Horne would be ready is late June, if he does well in Scranton. The easiest way to get a big contract pitcher is to make a deal of taking another large, unmovable contract too. Like the Abreu deal.
CB:
Would you offer Cano/Kennedy instead of Hughes/Melky?
Maybe the Yankees should consider adding Betemit and Attorney General to Melky and Hughes to get the deal done. Even if they have to eat some $$$ for Betty, that might be enough… SP, CF and SS, along with Utility/ 3rd Base fill in. It would clear some space in the Yankees roster and give some help to Minny where they need it.
I think the Twins would be idiots if they held Santana untill free-agency next year.
Hughes/Melky/Gonzalez or Ellsbury etc > 2 draft picks
If no trade – by 2009 our kids might be producing at a level where we dont need to buy an ace… And barring injury, they will be able to give us innings…
Maybe Jabberin Jonathan Kraft of your Patriots Pete can stick his foot in his mouth when the Pats dont go undefeated
By the way, there are some great games available at http://www.sell.com/2389VV Check them out
“Even if the Twins prefer Ellsbury to Hughes as the centerpiece, Cabrera is still easily the more valuable second player. If the Red Sox were to give up both Ellsbury and Lester, that might be a package the Twins would have to take. Regardless, this does dismiss the silly talk that the Red Sox were only in the Santana negotiations in order to increase the price for the Yankees.”
sox may include lester if it nets them neshek as well
Or maybe Thunderous Theo Epstein can quit throwing chairs around the room, considering every team would rather fleece us in deals than take anything from your Red Sox Pete.
Betemit makes less than 500,000 a year and has less than three years of service time..
i only use Hughes in a Santana trade…. Ironically, Eric Milton is a free agent this year…
I read the comments, especially Doreen’s because great minds think alike.
Yeah, Boston Dave, I don’t understand why people are still saying that the Sox are just trying to drive the price up for the Yankees. Whether or not they “need” Santana, in OUR opinions, is absolutely irrelevant. If they can afford to sign him, why the heck would they not want him? Reverse the positions, and there is NO ONE here who would be saying the Yankees didn’t “need” Santana. Teams can always use another ace pitcher, whether they already have one or not. I have never thought the Sox were in this just to up the ante. I also said early on that I didn’t think it should be taken seriously that Santana did not want to go to Boston, notwithstanding Torii Hunter’s comments that Santana wanted to play in NY.
Quit whining Mike…it is unbecoming.
Boston Dave
The Yanks would include Horne if the Twins throw in Neshak. But I don’t think thats going to happen.
The Twins, O’s, A’s and Rays clearly won’t make deals unless teams overpay.
Neshak is really good…closer good
fu*k santana, fu*k the twins, and double fu*ck the red sox
I’d rather trade Joba than Hughes + Melky.
I agree with the scouts/baseball experts who project Hughes to be the better long-term prospect.
I’d do Joba + Betemit + Gonzalez before I did Hughes + Melky + Betemit + Gonzalez.
I don’t consider Joba to be worth a Melky upgrade over Phil Hughes. I don’t see much of a difference between Joba and Hughes, if any at all.
wangkee,
hughes/ melky. only because they have joba and strong depth in right handed starters in the minors.
i hate to trade phil, however. very ambivalent about it.
They control Neshek for a while, he is proven, why would they include him in a trade…
No chance the twins trade neshek. none.
Neshek is going to be their closer. they are looking to trade nathan.
they have neshek under control for years. and he’s tremendous. he’s exactly the kind of player the twins need.
Smith is so full of BS it is a joke…so is his position that Hughes, Melky and 3rd prospect are inferior to 2 college or H.S. kids….right….I know it is posturing, but if he really thinks people (Cashman / Theo) view that as a credible threat he should be relieved of his duties….if I see it as a foolish bluff, professionals such as Cash and Theo will too……
Doesnt anybody realize the Pete is a Red Sox fan, not a Yanks fan? He just works for a newspaper that covers the Yanks. His writing is clearly slanted against us, especially with his insults of Hank and Hal.
It’s hard to believe that anybody would take a chance on a guy that’s less than a year removed from cancer, and hoping he’s clean. It takes two years before you can feel safe and 5 years before the doctors consider it a cure. If he’s better than Hughes, I’ll crap my drawers. His only advantage is being left handed. Ellsbury is going to be a pretty good ballplayer, if he keeps improving. He could also stall out. Cabrera has already shown the ability to improve from one year to the next and did it replacing a legend. He’s a switch hitter, has power and the talent to improve on that. He’s not going to be a 20 homer guy, but, considering where he batted, he drove in a lot of runs. He can steal 20 bases, and as much as Gardenhire likes to run, probably 25. His biggest asset is that arm. Few in baseball can match it from center field.
Master -
I think one of the reasons Joba is untouchable is a hedge — he has proved he can work in relief. He is very valuable to the Yankees because he is a flexible piece. I fully believe the Yankees will use Joba to start but it is a “good to know” that he can be a piece in the pen.
CB:
You’d sacrifice Hughes/Melky instead of Cano/Kennedy? You said the Yankees have the righties to replace Hughes but 2nd base isn’t a difficult position to fill externally, even if the Yankees don’t have an internal replacement rising through the system as may be the case with Hughes. Just my .02.
I cant wait for more info about the dealings to leak, how wild would it be if some team like LA got in the mix, and scooped up Johan…
I don’t want to commit to a middle of the road pitcher… If we can get Johan fine – i dont want to waste talent on mediocrity.
I have a strange feeling the Yanks are going to blink. Once they made the decision to give up Hughes it isn’t going to be that hard for them to rationalize giving up Horne/Tabata if that is what Minny wants.
Think about it…neither of them is in the majors …Once Hughes goes the other easy to let go.
I do think that if they demand Kennedy then no deal. The Yankees will have to put Pavano in the starting 5. LOL
The Yanks should play hardball right now and pull Hughes out of the deal. If the Sox are really serious about making a deal (and not just bluffing to hurt the Yanks) then they’ll step up and take the hit on their farm system (as well as their payroll). If not, then the whole charade the Twins have been creating will topple like a house of cards, and they’ll have to either a) be more reasonable, or b) keep Santana for another year. I’d rather keep Hughes (and Horne and/or Austin Jackson) for now and wait until Santana is a Free Agent. If the Sox get him, so be it…The more they become the Yanks the more the Sox are likely to succumb to the same fate the Yanks have suffered in recent years.
There are pitchers that came come close to Hughes and Cabrera is pretty replaceable. NYY has them in the systems. There are very few 2nd basemen with the skilss of Robinson Cano, and Kennedy is closer to going 190-200 innings than anybody the Yankees have in the system. He could get 190 this year.
Chicago Dave:
Solid rationale.
If Joba isn’t too busy right now, think he’d mind heading over to the Meadowlands and playing QB for the Giants?
I’m tired of watching Eli underthrow his receivers.
is the thought here that Ellsbury will be better than melky? I don;t see it…he’s a slap hitter who can run. melky is better defensively, a switch hitter, and a little more pop.
Hughes, Melky and “B” level prospect is a MUCH better offer than
Ellsbury, Lowrie, and pitvhing prospect.
the only saving grace of this falling apart is saving Hughes…the rest of these guys are part of the wallpaper.
Why they are hung on on alan horne is beyond me…the yankee farm is laoded with alan hornes
El Comaduce,
I agree with you. It’s worth giving up primo prospects for Santana, but that’s where you draw the line. And only because he’s been the best in the last five years, a lefty, and a strikeout machine. Otherwise hold on to the ammo and use it yourself.
I would trade cano to keep hughes…
He is exactly the type of hitter i like in that he hits for average. Is not a all for nothing guy…
I was surprised how good he is defensively from a ZONE standpoint…
Thanks, Mel!
I think I agree with Chicago Dave…the Yankees should withdraw Hughes very publicly…and push Minny for a last look…it might force Johan to call Minny and say “wtf?? I WANT NY or I’m not signing with anyone and you’ll lose me to FA for draft picks”
Then counter with Kennedy, Melky, Horne, and Gonzalez
For starters, Horne has a chance to be Hughes. He’s also the next big pitching callup for a starter. Makes no sense to be one starter down and trade two.
Green Beret:
My thinking is, with a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Wang, Joba and Horne, we’d have the righty pitcher prospects to deal for a solid 2nd baseman. With a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Wang, Joba and Horne, having a 2b of Cano’s skill level becomes pretty much a moot issue.
El Comaduce
I respectfully disagree on Cano. Especially if Melky goes.
Phil,
I take it you liked that call reversal.
Master,
How do you get Hughes and Santana. Are you hoping that Santana makes it to free agency?
“With a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Wang, Joba and Horne, having a 2b of Cano’s skill level becomes pretty much a moot issue.”
The Yankees hope that 2B becomes a moot point…but there are three question marks in that rotation because none of the three young ones have pitched a full season at the ML level.
mel,
i agree, Santana is the only guy i would trade Hughes for… I have no doubt that Hughes is going to be special – but i cant guarantee he will be Santana… Alot of people on this board have undervalued Santana… He is amazing…
I think Kennedy has just as much promise as Phil, remember the game vs. the Jays, Kennedy pitched 8 strong innings giving up 1 hit which was a home-run. That was his 3rd game pitching in too. I think he is great. Plus are we forgetting about Karstens? Rember what he did in Taiwan in tournament? The only reason he got injured was becuase he got hit in the leg, an injury that can happen to any player. So I personally wouldn’t mind giving up Horne. Yankees rotation….
Santana,Wang,IPK,Joba,Karstens, Petitte/Musinna/ Igawa. The yankees then have a lot to choose from. And might even consider putting Joba back in the pen.
Loved the reversal! But Eli has underthrown the ball on five of his last seven passes. He is very streaky this year.
doesn’t look like the twins will hold onto santana and deal him during the season. he has told the twins he will not waive his no trade clause if he is still on the team. twins are gonna trade him very soon.
wangkee,
2nd base is an extraordinarily difficult position to fill. it’s a premium defensive position and very hard to find productive offensive players there.
If Cano was not a middle infielder I wouldn’t deem him untouchable.
Look throughout the history of modren major league baseball at the best second basemen and Cano’s production compares favorably to almost any of them.
Craig Biggio’s going to the hall of fame in all liklihood. Compare his best year to the Cano’s past two seasons.
And many of the better offensive second basemen (jeff kent for example) have bee butchers in the field.
Cano is an excellent defensive second baseman. He was amongst the league leaders in zone rating.
They get rid of him they won’t find another.
Attention Yankee accountants !
Have your pencils and calculators ready for work on Wednesday with the 72-hours window for Santana’s contract.
The player part of the deal with be agreed upon after dinner on Tuesday.
With blazing front and back page headlines in the tabloids, YANKS – TWINS AGREE ON SANTANA DEAL !!!!
Mel:
CB and I were discussing a possible Cano/Kennedy deal to trump the Ellsbury + prospects offer. He prefers to trade Hughes/Melky instead of Cano/Kennedy but thinks the Twins would “settle” on Cano/Kennedy even if the Sox added Lester with Ellsbury.
My thinking is with a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Joba, Wang and Horne, having a 2b of Cano’s cailbar becomes less essential, especially considering our offense, rising stars like Tabata/Jackson/Melky, not to mention the prospect of signing Teixiera as a free agent after 2008. I think our offense would survive the loss of Cano because we can have speed and energy in the OF (Jackson/Melky/Tabata) to go with power in the middle of the order (Arod/Teixeira).
I thought the point of having a no-trade clause was ..
A) You can’t trade me period, unless I say so.
So, why has Santana not helped stop the Shenanigans so that whatever team he ends up with doesn’t have to sell the farm, getting word out which team he prefers to play for.
Is he allowed to tell the media, “I want to be a Yankee or Red Sox or Moon Dog.. whatever”?
Is this legal for him?
Unless he is seriously 50/50 on either being a Red Sox or a Yankee..maybe he already told the Twinky’s this.. but even still doesn’t he have some input that matters here?
They *ARE NOT* going to keep him this year, that’s part of negotiating.
1) Santana was not happy there last year and he won’t be this year. (he declined the best deal the Twinky’s had to offer).
2) The twins will get more of a ‘sure thing all-star +’ now with the trade than draft picks
3) We are in dyer need of an ace (Please don’t say wang or phil hughes) this year!
I suspect if Santana doesn’t open his mouth soon we are going to see the same thing that is happening with the Marlins and Cabrera.. again, Miggy does not have a “Full No Trade Clause”… more delay and posturing.
So please Johan, tell the Twinky’s to go take a hike.
If we trade Cano, we would have to get more production out of the more traditional spots… With cano – you can carry a light hitter at first… If we trade cano – i want a big glove guy at second…
How many batting average points would playing on the turf add to robbies average..
You’re not going to get “a solid second baseman”. NYY has one hole in the lineup as of right now. A power position…1st base. NYY offense can cover that because they have a 2nd baseman with 1st baseman run production. Now, you want to have three holes in the lineup at 2nd, center and third. That’s assuming that everyone else hits as well as they did last year, of course. If Jeter gets hurt, there isn’t a shortstop above Tampa that can field, run and hit. No 2nd basemen can come close to Cano for 3 years. Miranda is a mystery. He hit pretty well in Arizona…a notorious hitter’s league. Which hole are you going to fill? The best thing to do is pull the plug right now. Adding more of kids like Tabata/Jackson/Horne only does one thing…It takes away the closest major league players in the system. That means, praying for no injuries.
If Hughes has to go, I hope to god the Yanks hold firm on making the third player in the deal a mid-level prospect. To give up guys like Horne, Kennedy, Jackson or Tabata in addition to both Hughes and Melky would be a tremendous mistake. Santana is good, but he’s not worth that much. Certainly not after the year he’s coming off of…
I can’t believe how some of you, even savvy fans, are falling for Bobcat and giving him credibility when:
1. A few hours after he said the Yanks will get tough on not offering Hughes, they offer him.
2. He kept insisting that the Sox won’t offer their ‘big boys’ and that the names in the leaks are real, yet we learn that the Sox offered Ellsbury in the past and again now. Plus we are learning that they’ll offer Buchholz if the deal is expanding.
3. He said that Santana would not play in Boston, but condradicts himself in saying the Yanks are competing with the Sox for Santana’s services. Don’t you think that the Yanks would know who he’d play for more than Bobcat? Otherwise, why increase the stakes?
4. Let’s not forget that it was Miller and NOT Bobcat who knew about the ARod deal and the particulars. Bobcat came late in the game to confirm what Miller had already said. Sheesh, any one of us could have done that.
bphill:
To be fair Kennedy did that in September. Wheras Hughes came into the middle of a playoff game in October when the Yankees were down 2 games to none and shut down the Cleveland bats. I was at that game his curve ball was a thing of beauty
Do you know how long the Yankees have looked for a pitcher to do that.
I know Santana is great but he hasn’t pitched in the white hot heat of a playoff game at Yankee stadium. I assume he will do as well. However, I already know Hughes can do it.
GB7,
I like Horne a great deal. He’s not even close to Hughes.
Horne’s best season was last year – his WHIP was 1.34. He walked around 3.4./ 9 innings. He still struggles with his command
Phil’s minor league career WHIP is 0.86. 2.2 BB/9
A WHIP of 0.86 is mind boggling for a minor league career.
Lester isn’t very good and Ellsbury is a glorified (but not as good) version of Brett Butler. I would not be happy if Boston gets Santana that cheaply. Conversely, the Yankees would be foolish to give up Hughes in a deal. It doesn’t matter whether they include Kennedy or Horne. That’s not what makes it a bad deal (although I don’t want to trade Horne). It became a bad deal the second they included Hughes. I would not be surprised if Hughes is better in 2010 than Santana is in 2010 and he’ll be much cheaper.
“Victor the Predictor December 2nd, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Attention Yankee accountants !
Have your pencils and calculators ready for work on Wednesday with the 72-hours window for Santana’s contract.
The player part of the deal with be agreed upon after dinner on Tuesday.
With blazing front and back page headlines in the tabloids, YANKS – TWINS AGREE ON SANTANA DEAL !!!!”
————————————
Followed by a secondary headline in the sports section:
CARLOS SANTANA TO PLAY YANKEE STADIUM DESPITE SCHEDULING FLAW THAT HAD HIM PERFORMING AT METRODOME ON SAME NIGHT; TWINS OK WITH RESCHEDULING FOR 2009
OH…AND TWINS GET PHIL HUGHES MYSTERIOUSLY
By George King
I cant remember anyone ever saying – “I wont accept a trade ” to a specific team – in MLB…
Yankees should float a rumor that Santana will not sign with Boston…
Latest development – http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7517774
That pretty much ends the Twins we’ll go into the season with him bluff.
In the last thirty-forty years, there have been maybe 5 2nd basemen that can match Cano’s combination of offense and defense….Morgan, Grich, Utley, Biggio and Sandberg. That’s a lot of 2nd basemen. Not just one year flashes like Davy Johnson.
The Yanks are stupid. Si.com is saying that the Yanks told the Twins last night that Monday is there deadline and they havent spoken since. Yanks will pull out and then the Twins will have no problem making a deal with Boston for there crappy B level prospects. Why is Cash in a hurry when the Twins and everyone else in baseball know that the Yanks have no where else to go for an ace pitcher. They make it seem like 10 others are available and they will just move on..
Everyone should check out the FoxSports links above.
The Twins just lost their leverage. It’s now or or lose him for a couple of draft picks.
That Santana news is absolutely devastating for the twins.
I take it santana got sick of their posturing.
Where are all those minnesota fans on the board who were guaranteeing the twins would be happy keeping santana for the season?
The ones who never thought about how the guy with the no trade would feel about that?
Also, that link says the Twins are asking for the ss, Gonzalez, or Horne. Hello? Give them Gonzalez!
“The sticking point with the Yankees is the identity of the third player. The Yankees want it to be a mid-level prospect, but the Twins have asked for players such as Class AAA shortstop Alberto Gonzalez and Class AA right-hander Alan Horne.”
Are you kidding me? If the Twins actually gave us a choice between Gonzalez and Horne, they must be weakening…
El Com,
“If we trade Cano, we would have to get more production out of the more traditional spots… With cano – you can carry a light hitter at first… If we trade cano – i want a big glove guy at second…
How many batting average points would playing on the turf add to robbies average..”
My plan would be to sign Teixeira and plug a gold glove defender in at 2nd base. With a rotation of Santana, Hughes, Joba, Wang and Horne, we still have many trade chips to acquire a role player at 2b and plenty of money to sign Teixeira (for 2009) instead of a guy like Rowand (for 2008).
If we offered/traded Cano/Kennedy for Santana, we’d still have Betances, Garcia, Brackman, McCallister, Melancon, Sanchez, Marquez…
I’d package some of them to the Pirates (who need cost-controlled pitching bad) and nab Freddy Sanchez + Ronnie Paulino.
I understand, CB. If I didn’t say it, I meant to mention his control. However, coming back from transplant surgery is going to take a little time, especially with a fastballer. It started coming around in the 2nd half last year.
I think the Horne vs. Gonzalez issue is one of those not so stellar Ken Rosenthal moments.
If the twinkies want Gonzalez this deal would have been done.
Rosenthal is the one who keeps bringing up the attorney general’s name
Also in the FoxSports article “Ellsbury, sources say, has been available to the Twins from the start of their discussions with the Red Sox, but not in a deal with Lester.”
It seems like the leaks from Gammons, the Twins, and the Red Sox have been designed to drive up the price for the Yankees.
CB – Yeah, I think you’re right. I’ve learned not to trust 99.9% of what Rosenthal writes!
Master W -
I seriously doubt Teixeira is going to be available. He likes playing in Atlanta, and I believe he will stay there.
They are putting a time limit on the deal because we need to know the status of the rotation… We need another proven arm in the rotation… I am getting that pettite must have told them he aint coming back..
hahaha
johan just put us in a box
hope ya got that contract worked out.. cuz he is going to be coming to the yanks
GB7,
How would you compare Cano with Joe Morgan? Never saw Morgan play but I have to think he’s the standard for modern second basemen. I think he’s ahead of Sandberg. Alomar at his peak was the best of recent times but didn’t do it long enough.
I know this is presumptuous to say after only two seasons – but just looking at hitting talent, Cano just seems like an even better pure hitter to me than Sandberg and even alomar.
Rosenthal sounds like half of his stories are true. Gonzalez is probably one of the guys the Yanks threw out there if he was added in as the 4th prospect(in a none Hughes deal). No one is to believe that Gonzalez would be a sticking point. I still think they want Horne and or Jackson.
Well, the Hendricks Brothers are in Nashville, so who knows. I’m sure Pettitte’s decision will be out this week.
I forgot about Karstens…. would he have an innings cap?
How many BA points would the turf add to Cano’s Stats..
I wonder if the Yanks would really back off Santana (and/or Haren) now if Andy committed to coming back within the next few days?
El Com,
I agree about Pettitte. The deadline makes sense if he already revealed his retirement plans to Cashman in private.
I’m impressed. Eli Manning actually outplayed Rex Grossman.
El Comaduce, I don’t think that Karstens is on an innings cap. He’s ready for the league, but I don’t know if the league is ready for him. lol. He’s too hot.
minnysota,
your a stand up person for showing up after the santana news.
I think santana is telling your new general manager who is the boss in this situation.
if you guys blow this and pass on hughes you will regret it for the next 15 years.
I really don’t want the yankees to trade phil. the more I think about it the less I like it.
WHIP of 0.86 from the ages of 18 to 20.
Scott Boras is his agent and the Orioles and Tex have been flirting for years about his free agency. I’m not saying. I’m just saying.
i love it. even santana realizes that what smith is doing is unprofessional.
its borderline ludicrous at this stage.
do it or don’t jackass.
CaptainsCorner, the Yanks had to pull that move otherwise this would be a back and forth fiasco where Twins are constantly trying to pry one more prospect after another for Santana.
The Yankees know that this is their final offer. Even pulling it off the table, doesn’t really mean the offer isn’t there. It’s about time we made Smith sweat it out, especially with the news of Santana unwilling to waive his NTC if entering the season on the twins.
CB, Morgan was a worse 2nd baseman than Cano in his first 2-3 years, but, became as good as I’ve seen. Cano’s turns a better DP and with a right fielder’s arm. He does that as well as Mazeroski did. He gets careless in the field when not hitting. Morgan alsways had some power, but, the Astrodome buried a lot of it. In Cinncy, is where average and power came out. His biggest advantage over Cano is speed.
El Com,
Cano would be like Wade Boggs with power in Minny. Cano’s my favorite Yankee but I’d rather invest in the rotation and keep as many position player prospects as possible.
Refer to my “December 2nd, 2007 at 7:15 pm” post.
DId I just not say that it was way overdue for Santana to say something?
Most of what Gammons leaks consists of gin & tonic provided by John Henry.
CB, the article said taht the Twins wanted Gonzalez AND Horne. Another example of the Twins trying to squeeze more and more for Santana.
Eli is terrible.
is it me or does VA rep Jim Webb have a huge forehead… Holy cow… I thought my computer was broken…
Wow, Twins lost a bit of leverage, didn’t they?
Oh what a game for the Giants, led by their big-time D. Am I hearing Pats/Colts vs. Giants in the superbowl.
JT,
What article? Is there something new out?
Or are you referring to the one by Kepner in the times this a.m?
That news is a blow to the Twins…but the reports were before that they were willing to roll with Santana for the whole season anyways…The only thing it hurt for the Twins is if they don’t do well the first half of the season, they prolly would have tried to get something for Santana…but now that’s not an option…It is not devastating for the Twins like one person said…
I’d take Cano/Kennedy over Ellsbury/Lester anyday for those of you wondering from the Twins perspective…
Well Mr. Rosenthal adds some color to this discussion. If only Johann also said he would only waive his NTC for the Yanks but I guess that is too much to hope for.
I can’t see the Sox not including Lester but I also can’t see the Yanks not including Horne/Jackson/Tabata…quite a pickle
GB7,
Are you seriously saying that Cano turns the DP as well as Mazeroski!!
That is quite a statement. I wouldn’t even have thought that possible. I just always think of Maz as being in an entirely different class.
Cano cannot run. That is the one downside to his game. The carelessness is going away.
Best hitter talent wise: Morgan vs. Sandberg vs. Cano?
CB, I totally forgot about Alomar. Morgan/Alomar are two of a kind. The best overall fielding second baseman, though was Grich my a hair over Sandberg. Sandberg could have been a pure power hitter if he had wanted to be. Starange that he was a throw-in in a deal from Philly.The deal was Ivan DeJesus for Larry Bowa and Sandberg was the throwin.
So Santana wants out of Minny. This much is clear.
Smith pressed his luck and I wouldn’t be surprised if Hughes is now off the table.
No Jaewon, that’s not what your hearing. You don’t have a QB that will ever get you there.
i would trade cano if it meant keeping Hughes…
You wont find another bat like his, but when you have A-rod at third, your offense can take a hit… Plus – i am predicting bounce back years from atleast one of the following:
Giambi
Naked PullUp Guy..
Update from Jon Heyman.
The Yankees have given the Twins a Monday deadline.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Rebecca – It would be great if they lost enough leverage (with Santana’s statement) to actually enable the Yanks to pull Hughes from the deal, but I doubt that’s the case.
JT,
I’m not so sure.
“Twins have asked for players such as Class AAA shortstop Alberto Gonzalez and Class AA right-hander Alan Horne.”
By such as I believe he’s referring to the type of player the third player would be. I think its definite it’s three players.
CB, you’re right about Cano as the pure hitter. Sandberg and Alomar got a lot of leg hits. Cano isn’t slow, like the way people think. Watch him 1st to 3rd or on triples. He’s like Bernie Williams. His first step or two are not explosive. When he gets moving, he hits one gear and stays in it.
Matt,
It doesn’t really matter that you or the Twins “would take Cano/Kennedy” because the Yankees are NOT trading Cano, let alone Cano and Kennedy. Of course they would take Cano. They’d also “take” Joba.
Thanks, Jeff. Isn’t it funny how we get this kind of news 24 hours before it’s confirmed on the major news sites?
Jake, http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7517774
Man Pete you are another person seeing the bullpen as a more important problem.
Joe Torre killed the bullpen.If your pitching staff can go 6-7 innings a game thats a better way to try to make the playoffs that way.I’m tired of the Matt DeSlavos,Chase Wrights pitchers to fill the rotation.
Let risk the bullpen with Ross Olendorfs,Jose Veras.Lets stop going to the playoffs with no #4 or #5 pitchers.Who cares we got a closer lets risk it.As long as we got Santana and Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang going 200 innings thats what is more important.
Chicago Dave -
A Pettitte positive decision has no affect on a Santana deal except in the rotation being stronger with another lefthander. Brian Cashman being as stealth as he is, will say nothing that can disrupt or change the Yankee stance of doing business.
I cant imagine the sawx paying yohan… We need to set up a spy in the sawx organization, like in THE DEPARTED…
Master Wangkee-
How do you figure that Santana wants out of Minny?…Why would he say he’d want to stay with them for the whole year then? wow listen to what is being said…
Giants in Superbowl this year…Jaewon I think you smoked your dinner this evening.
Mike R -
Funny you should mention that!
I got lazy and decided to end my post where I did, but I was going to add that if it wasn’t Atlanta, the the Orioles would be making a push for him.
“Yankees general manager Brian Cashman gave Twins GM Bill Smith a list of prospects they’d be willing to include with Hughes and Cabrera, and Cashman made clear at that time that pitchers Ian Kennedy and Alan Horne and outfielder Austin Jackson would not be included in their Hughes-Cabrera proposal.” (from the Heyman article)
Finally, a dose of sanity! Come on Brian, go the whole way…pull Hughes out of the deal NOW!!
Matt,
Welcome back!!
Your GM just got slapped upside his head by his superstar lefty.
All of the leaks from your side consisted of this: we’re not worried about going into the season with johan because we could get these same packages in July. We’re not going to be forced into anything unless we get our deal.
Guess what – that’s all done now. Once the season starts Santana equals one last run at the brass ring and two draft picks.
And if you make a run with Santana you have to keep Nathan and get nothing for him either.
Ethan-
Some Yankee posters said they would rather trade Cano + Kennedy than Hughes + Melky…I think the Twins would rather have Cano anyways, it was my reply to that…
Matt:
For starters, in the middle of a very public bidding war between the Yankees and Red Sox, Santana states that the Twins won’t be able to trade him at the deadline.
Translation? Deal me now. My .02.
Truth be told, we don’t really know if the Yanks refuse to let Horne be the third person in the trade. That could be a negotiating ploy where they make the Twins feel like they are getting away with something by getting Horne (or another) inserted in the deal when, maybe, that was the Yanks plan all along.
Give ‘em Cano, Karstens and Melky.
Wangkee, the only position player they are talking about are Gonzales, who’s nothing more that a glove, average speed, no power and a .250 average. He’s a utility infielder for NY. Cabrera is a fun player, but, other than the arm, nothing remarkable that won’t be in NY in late 2008, by the name of Jackson. Your infatuation with second tier players is as ridiculous as your desire to turn Chamberlain into a setup man and unload Cano for a second rate 2nd baseman.
Rosenthal is having a busy night. He says the Padres and Peavy are close to a 3 year deal $17m per.
I disagree, we need a mature arm from an innings standpoint… If we knew pettite was signed, we would not be in so much of a bind…
Our problem is an innings problem… We physically cannot get enough inning out of the kids…
I would rather see my grandmother on the mound than Igawa
Matt,
Santana will not resign with the Twins. He is one year from Free agency, and he wants money. He also is tired of the Twins act. He wants to go to a team who can pay him and will put out a team that can win a championship, aka Yanks or Sux.
If Peavy signs that contract Kevin Tower is an absolute genius.
Leaving $100 million on the table!
The magic of perfect weather.
Does your Grandma throw from the left side?
El Comaduce,
Um….does your grandmother have Scott Boras as an agent? Just wondering.
El Comaduce – Can you believe that there are actually other teams that are still interested in acquiring Igawa from the Yanks (or, at least, that’s what I’ve read)? I don’t which is more ridiculous…teams ready to trade for Igawa or teams ready to trade anything other than a bag of used baseballs for Coco Crisp!!!
For that package, the twins should throw in Nathan and Liriano
CB-
Twins Dave St. Peter, The Twins President, was quoted in the NYTs saying that they would be fine keeping Santana for the year…
I disagree about Nathan…Regardless of what happens I believe the best option is to trade Nathan for some every day players…
Just a note of interest on the Robinson Can being a Yankee Legacy. His father was signed as an amateur free agent in 1980 as a pitcher. That makes him a keeper.
If Johan didn’t want out of Minny he would have tried to keep extension talks open with them.
Cheap owner=Goodbye Johan.
He was quite upset when one of your players was traded away before the deadline, no?
my grandmother is a 4 foot tall hungarian woman… But she makes a MEAN COOKIE….
And yes, she is repped by Boras… Very expensive cookies…
I bet igawa is cheap (due to the posting)..
GreenBeret:
My desire to ‘turn Chamberlain into a setup man’? When did I say this? Quit twisting my words. I said the opposite. I said that the Yankees should try him out as a starter first but that ultimately he COULD end up in the bullpen not that he SHOULD. If you’re going to discuss my opinions, try to get them right. Thank you for your consideration.
‘Unload Cano for a second rate 2nd baseman’? So now I want to trade Cano for a 2nd baseman. I could’ve sworn I was saying that the Yankees would be better off trading Cano for SANTANA. To the best of my knowledge, Santana isn’t a ’2nd rate second baseman’. Santana’s an ace pitcher right?
Either you
a)Read what YOU WANT to read, misinterpret posts and spin an argument to suit your opinions
b)Don’t fully read everything presented to you by people you feel some animosity towards.
c)Both a and b
GET OFF MY TIP!
El Comaduce – I guess you must really value Cano very highly (’cause the other two guys are certainly replaceable).
My feeling is this…I’d rather keep our good young arms and build a really dominating pitching staff. With a dominating staff, you don’t need as much offense. Besides, pitching always triumphs in the postseason.
So much for people saying if the Yanks do not get Santana then they can always Peavy, Sabathia or Bedard as free agents. Peavy is now signed, Bedard said he is not interested in playing in NY…all that is left is Sabathia and I am not that thrilled with him and he can always sign an extension with the Indians. So the Yanks could go another 3 to 4 years without an ace. Wang in game 1, I am excited!!
Matt,
Of course that’s what your organization is saying. They’re boxed in. Smith did a terrific job of playing the Yankees vs. the Sox to get the deals up to Hughes/ Ellsbury.
But everyone has collectively put the twins in their place- the yanks, the sox and santana have all put a stop to the negotiations phase.
Its decision time.
Honestly, I’d prefer to see santana stay with the twins. That’s my ideal situation. I want nothing more.
If santana stays with the twins in 2008 the the yanks rotation in 2009 will be santana/ wang/ chamberlain/ hughes and kennedy.
I’ll take that and root for your team in the AL central.
Just an idea of how much Boston thinks Crisp is worth. He offered Crisp to San Diego in a straight up trade for Chase Headley. I’m not sure if Towers is done laughing, yet, or, not.
JT from NYC-
You are being ridiculous…Quit trying to tell me how a player that I see everyday is thinking…If anything, I’d be a better judge of that than you would…Santana is happy in Minnesota, but he does want to contend…If the Twins decided to sign him to an extension they’d have to commit to winning and I think it is possible both of those things happen…
Master Wangkee-
That is plausable…but if you read the article again it says that he does not want to switch teams in the middle of the season, because it will mess with his pitching…
Right now I see three packages getting a deal done for Santana:
1. Hughes, Melky and any of (Kennedy, Tabata or Jackson)
2. Cano and Kennedy
3. Any three of Lester, Ellsbury or Buchholtz…
CB:
Santana staying with Twins = World Series for Yanks in 2009…and maybe 5-10 more before he’s done.
I bet Theo manages to trade Crisp for someone great. We all know that’s ridiculous, but the rest of the league remains all too ready to bend over for the boy genius GM…
By Eric Hz Section: Baseball
Posted on Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 06:56:01 PM EDT
With Johan Santana one 2nd-tier prospect away from becoming a New York Yankees, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus has his Top 11 New York Yankees Prospects up. At the top of the list is the one untouchable followed by the five players Jack Curry of the New York Times reported as unavailable from inclusion as the third piece.
After those six, Edwar Ramirez is the only one ready to earn the major league minimum salary. I am not convinced SS Albert Gonzalez can hit enough to get the deal done, and I wonder how far away reliever Kevin Whelan was for Mr. Goldstein. He is the prospect sleeper I am watching the most in an eventual deal.
Five-Star Prospects
1. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
Four-Star Prospects
Ian Kennedy, RHP
Austin Jackson, OF
Jose Tabata, OF
Alan Horne, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
Dellin Betances, RHP
Jesus Montero, C
Andrew Brackman, RHP
Edwar Ramirez, RHP
Kelvin DeLeon, OF
Two-Star Prospects
11. Humberto Sanchez, RHP
I’m not in the mood to go copy and paste your early afternoon rants about where Chamberlain should be pitching, Winkee, but, I wasn’t the one that you were arguing with. Didn’t you just say that it would be better to get rid of Cano and just get an ordinary glove man or Sanchez? Not sure what you’d be trading, but, it scares me to think about it. Nobody’s “on your tip”. I just think you’re too much in love with your own ideas and reminding everyone of your “source”…The Magic 8 Ball.
CB-
I still believe that the Twins have some leverage, although I agree if the Twins are going to trade Santana it should be by the end of the Winter Meetings…The Twins really like Ellsbury from what I have seen in these past days so I think they could be happy with anything with him in it…So if the Yankees want to compete they’ll have to up the offer…That is speculation I can’t prove that the Twins like Ellsbury as much as I say they do…
The Twins clearly are getting closer to what they think is a fair deal…all this “Bill Smith is a jerk, cause he is trying to make us overpay” is just spoiled Yankee fans not getting their way…
Matt -
Yankee management should be executed wholesale if they end up going for either of the (Yankee) scenarios you suggest.
Green Beret:
So now that you realize you don’t have your facts straight regarding my opinions, i hope you’ll understand when I don’t respond to your off-base attacks any longer. Have a good one.
Chicago Dave-
I have been saying these type of packages for the whole process and people have called me crazy the whole time…Many said Hughes wouldn’t even be in play in these deals…so far I have been right about the price continuing up…
Matt – I’m not calling you crazy (far from it, actually). I’m just saying that the Yanks shouldn’t give up all that talent for Santana. It just wouldn’t be prudent long-term.
Matt,
Honestly. I can tell you – the yankees are not upping the offer to compete with Ellsbury.
I like ellsbury a lot as a player. But if the twins seriously want to trade Santana for a very fast centerfielder who will hit for average but absolutely no power that’s fine. You can go do that.
The idea of trading Santana for an outfielder with no power (no matter how good he could be) vs. a pitcher with top of the rotation poise is unfathomable to me.
But I’m not a GM.
And they aren’t getting closer to a “fair” deal. They aren’t happy with either package. Its more than the initial offer but not where they (or you) wanted it.
The twins are righ in their assessments of both the red sox and yankees packages. Both deals depend on one high ceiling prospect panning out. If that player doesn’t essentially the twins get very little for santana.
But ultimately this is all they are going to get because they have no leverage.
And if your team takes draft picks (or ellsbury IMO) instead of phil hughes you will regret it for the next 15 years.
I think its safe to say the yanks’ offer makes it no more than a 50% chance that they land santana. such a big risk to take for the likes of alan horne and austin jackson. it is likely that only one of them will amount to anything, yet the yankees are holding off on inclusion of them as though they are phil hughes. he’s already in the damn offer. the yankees are fools to let jackson or horne stand in the way of acquiring the best pitcher in baseball.
i’m really pissed off right now. i think the yankees totally botched the negotiationsby including hughes the way that they did. hughes’ inclusion should have sealed the deal. the fact that they offered him prior to getting assurances that the framework proposed would be agreed to is just awful.
a lot of credit needs to go to bill smith, but jeez, the yankees blew the negos on this.
Chicago Dave:
matt has a point…the only question is whether the sox will toss Lester into the mix. I don’t think Lester is that great..I think the Sox will put him in the deal
The Twins are not that worried about their Lead off hitter getting home runs…To be honest, they don’t even care if their 3rd Baseman hits home runs..The Twins don’t reply on Homers, they rely on manufacturing runs…We’ll take a high avg hitter who steals bases and player gold glove defense all day…
Matt – I think your three proposals are based on your feelings of what would be fair for Santana and not the real life circumstances surrounding the trade.
1- If Hughes and Cabrera are in the deal the third prospoect will not be a top tier guy
2- Cano is going nowhere. It has been stated and reiterated.
3- How can you feel that the Hughes package would HAVE to include Kennedy (or equivalent) and any package with Lester or Buchholz would be enough?
The more I think about it, the more I believe the Yankees have gone into this knowing EXACTLY what they’d be willing to give up. I believe Hughes was always in play for the yankees, but of course for a negotiating tactic, you lead your opponent to believe you are giving in. The Yankees are not stupid, contrary to what some people here think. If the Yankees do end up with Santana, they will have given up no more than they had ever intended, although it will not be spun that way.
By the way, If Minny would take Cano and Kennedy I do that deal in a heartbeat If I am the Yankees
Seems to me that the Twins like Lester a great deal, maybe you guys are underrating him…I’ve heard that he throws fire, control problems can be fixed, especially with Ricky Anderson working with him…
Funny, I haven’t seen anything from Johan stating how much he wants to remain with the Twins. Matt, how about you pony up some links and quotes that show that? I have read statements from Hunter that said how he could see Santana playing in NY with the Yankees.
Also, who said that the Twins liked Ellsbury so much? Leaks to the paper? Something tells me that with two pitchers – STARTING pitchers out of their rotation, that the Twins more than likely won’t value a CF over a high ceiling SP. Then again, why would logic dictate anything here?
The Twins have some pitching talents, but they wouldn’t be insisting on Lester AND Ellsbury if there wasn’t a need for a starter. They would snag the prospects that the Sox are offering.
By talking how much they want Ellsbury it makes it seem as though they would be settling for Hughes. Bull. They want Hughes.
Its time to do deal or no deal. There it is. Which offering are you taking? Or are you sticking with getting draft picks?
boston’s offer, while not containing the best prospect possible, does offer one of the things the twins are looking for. by presumably including lowrie with ellsbury (in addition to a pitching prospect), the red sox are offering slightly lower quality/higher quantity.
for a team like the twins that is seeking a sure return, as well as a quality return, that will likely be more appealing.
berra8,
I disagree. The yankees did exactly what they needed to – they offerred a fair package and then told the twins it is decision time.
The way this was going if the yankees put in Horne – then the twins would have continued going back and forth and eventually worked their way up to insisting on Joba.
Look at the nonsense going on between the Angels and Marlins.
Giving up Horne and Jackson is very difficult to do because Hughes and Melky are in the package already.
The yankees will need Horne in that rotation in 2008 if they trade hughes.
How long do you want to see Damon roam center. Jackson is one of the few athletic prospects they will have in AA or AAA.
They’ve handled this fine. They are trading for one year of santana and the opportunity for an exclusive window to give him $150 million dollars.
Whey looking at it that way giving up Hughes, never mind hughes and melky almost seems ridiculous.
Off topic – WAY OFF topic — If you actually put a laptop on your lap, it is much easier to use the keyboard. However, the mouse then becomes the issue, since I don’t like using the touch pad on the laptop itself.
Doreen I totally agree with you…Cashman must have known what it would cost…I think Cashman was hoping it would cost no more than Hughes and Melky, but now they are trying to decide if it’s worth it…
Something should break by tomorrow.
Berra, NYY did what they had to do. They made a fair, initial offer, and after Smith went Boston brought it back to NYY. They upped the offer and gave hen the third player they asked for but, Hughes being inserted for Kennedy then, wasn’t enough. He wanted more. No deal he asked for was enough. It was always more. If I had been doing this, the negotiations would have ended after the third time. The plug should have been pulled this morning.
i understand what you are saying CB, but adding hughes should have sealed the deal. the fact that he didn’t was a serious miscalculation on the yankees part.
i.e., “if we propose hughes, melky, and one person off of this list of prospects, does that get it done?” they obviously didn’t do that, since the twins are still unhappy with the third player.
berra8, I agree with you. The Yanks included there #1 prosepct for the last 3 years but would let the deal die on 2 lesser prospects. Stupid..They already went this far why would an outfielder that had 1 good year or Horne change that. Also Lester is a decent pitcher if Boston is offering Ellsbury I cant see them let Lester be there sticking point.
Deadline Monday?
So that makes it a damn good thing my paper’s due tomorrow morning, doesn’t it?
Chicago Dave – i would prefer to trade cano and kennedy than hughes… Only because they yankees have been talking about him… There is an attachment there…
Bob’s my Uncle-
I have been speculating this whole time and I’ve said so…Yankees fans have gone on far weaker limbs than I have, but obviously you wouldn’t realize that there actually is another perspective that isn’t the NYY’s…
Matt, there you go again. How do you know that they like Lester so much? If they did, why wasn’t he enough before? Lester isn’t a number 1 starter. He is bottom of the rotation, and no where near Hughes level.
How are the Yankees stupid? If Minny is telling them Hughes or no deal, and they decide to go ahead a put Hughes in and then Minny changes the deal, that is not on the Yankees. Except perhaps in underestimating the greed and connivance of the opposing party.
Great games are available on DVD at http://www.sell.com/2389VV
This whole thing is ridiculous, Buster Olney reports that Ellsbury centering a deal is more alluring than Phil Hughes. Buster, can your tongue get any browner from the Red Sox sh**.
When will cano start making money?
Doreen,
I completely agree with you. The most telling moment of this entire process may have been in the beginning.
Whey they said Joba and Cano were untouchable but neglected to say Phil was that said everything.
If they explicitly didn’t make Phil off limits who in their right mind wouldn’t ask for him back? The yankees had to know that.
Their strategy seems to have been to build one of two deals:
1. Kennedy/ Melky/ some high ceiling guy like Jackson, horne, etc
or.
2. Phil/ melky/ some one ok as the third guy.
I think from the start they had decided it was one or the other – they tried to sell the first deal and then upped it to the second.
Take a step back. Minny is doing the exact same thing to the Red Sox as they are to the Yankees. They are an equal opportunity foiler. They told Boston, Ellsbury or no deal, they include Ellsbury and now it’s, well, we meant Ellsbury AND either Lester or Bucholz. So, they’re not just picking on the Yankees. And the Yankees aren’t the only ones succumbing to the changing rules of the game.
We don’t know exactly what communication is going on between the Yankees and the Twins right now. They could already have agreed on the third prospect and the Twins are going back to the Red Sox one final time. Or the Twins could be having internal arguments about their final decision. We just don’t know.
Bob’s my Uncle-
You are putting many words in my mouth and I am about done replying to you if you continue…I never said Lester was better than Hughes…Never did I say that…
I agree -
Cano and Wang go to arbitration this year
I wonder if that is one of the things that would take away his luster to minny….
That is why i could not believe the Coco crisp stuff… He is making money – not alot – but this is Minny..
if the Yanks do not get the best pitcher in baseball I will be ecstatic.. Santana is the best pither in baseball but what Minny wants from the Yanks is too much.
Again the fans, the players, and management of the Yanks need to change there mindset.. No more trading nuggets like Hughes for SUperstars that will get insane contracts that can become dead weight in a few yrs..
Watch Santana go no where and the Yanks sign him as a FA…
kennedy, melky, and someone else would be sufficent for Santana but still a hefty price along with his huge contract, as the trade stands now it is too expensive..
I believe the Twins would give Cano the cash he deserves if they acquired him….just like they will with Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer…
Matt – Your implying (or explicitly stating at times) that all Yankee fans are close-minded and unrealistic is getting a little old…
Let’s put the shoe on the other foot… Would you call a fellow Twins fan close-minded, unrealistic, etc. if he didn’t think trading two or three of the team’s absolute best prospects for a single “ace” pitcher just around the corner from his 30s (and coming off a year where both his ERA and homers allowed were up) was the best idea? Come on now, I know it’s fashionable to despise the Yanks and their fans, but be reasonable…
Now that I’m reading that Santana has told the Twins he will not waive his no trade clause during the season, especially not at the trading deadline, I expect that he’ll definitely be traded, probably by this Tuesday. No way the
Twins will keep him and lose him to FA for two draft picks! Santana has actually helped the bargaining position of the teams willing to trade for him. Peavy working on an extension for around 17.5M/year for 3 years. I would think that an extension of 6 years and 120M is more than fair, on top of the 13.5 M Santana will earn this year. That takes him to age 36 at the end of the contract, and Hughes won’t even be 30!!!
CB & Doreen:
We can accept the fact that the Yankees are giving up Hughes but I don’t think we can now assume this was their plan all along.
Where is the link that states that only Cano and Joba were untouchable?
All reports indicate (and I beieve them) that the Yankees had a very long discussion before they agreed to give up Hughes.
I do however aggree that if the Yankees lose the game it is not their fault. They likely did have a promise from Minny that once Hughes was inserted they would have a deal. Minny just turned around and asked for more
Depends on what boston was offering…
When was the last time the best pitcher in baseball (not one career year) who is less than 30, was traded…
Get off the ESPN is anti-Yankees BS. Olney is saying that Ellsbury could be more enticing to the Twins than Hughes.
Olney may be right about that. The Twins NEED an everyday centerfielder and have a lot of young pitching in their system.
Olney wasn’t making a direct comparison of the two players.
All that NESPN argument is getting old and complete BS.
I can’t be sure if those high stake poker players as seen on ESPN are as good as some baseball executives or is it vice versa….
Doreen December 2nd, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Off topic – WAY OFF topic — If you actually put a laptop on your lap, it is much easier to use the keyboard. However, the mouse then becomes the issue, since I don’t like using the touch pad on the laptop itself.
I recommend you get a laptop desk. I have one that has a wood top and a beanbag type pillow on the bottom with room for a mouse next to your laptop. I got mine from Target. BTW, I also hate touchpads.
Just skimmed some of the comments I see that the Yankees have set a deadline (good for them) and Santana has said he will not wave his no trade during the season. Everyone has joined the game now. I don’t believe for one minute that if the Twins are in last place come July 31st and management goes to him and says we’ll trade you to the Yankees that he would say NO.
He is bluffing, but it does help to put pressure on the Twins to either accept the Yankee, Sox deal or just keep him.
East Side -
I don’t think the Yankees PLANNED to give up Hughes. I think they were hoping they would not have to. I believe the discussions took place to say, okay, do we go with the next option – including Hughes – and do we do it now or wait. But I think Hughes was always a piece the Yankees decided if it came down to it they would part with FOR SANTANA.
God…gotta love a guy like Matt who’s incensed about people not agreeing with him. All Yankee fans are narrow minded because they don’t agree with his own over valued love of his thoughts. People on here respect your views…it’s just that nobody but one agrees with them. There’s a difference between disagreeing and disrespect, Matty. What you have, Matty, is disrespect for anybody that doesn’t agree with you. Maybe it’s because “nobody could possibly know how a mid-westerner thinks”. Remember that line of crap?
east side Yankee, i saw the quote about not trading Joba or Robbie last week… When i saw that i wondered where phils name was..
YanksRule57
Thanks for the suggestion. Perhaps I’l add it to my Christmas list!
Commoduce, the way to end that is to sign Cano to a contract extention tonight and make it public.
Chicago Dave-
The fact that you put ace in quotes makes me want to discredit everything you say…but I have read some of your posts and know you are a smart guy…This game of Baseball allows players to pitch well into their 30s…I would not be surprised if Santana doesn’t pitch into his late 30s…He is a GREAT GREAT athlete…Look at his batting statistics, his fielding percentage and every other things that he does…He is as good of an athlete as you will see on the mound…He has been on a strict 100 pitch count throught his whole career…Gardy is very consistent with his pitch counts…the only time he lets Santana go past that is when he has a shut out going or something…due to the amazing bullpen the Twins have they have no need to have him go past 8 innings…Neshek + Nathan and it’s over…
If we dont get the trade done by Monday – i hope we dont back down – unless it means swapping Kennedy…
It is amazing how attached we are to Phil. I would still trade him in the right deal – but i would feel bad…
It is too EARLY to set deadlines and make ultimatums.
The key objective for New York IMO should be keeping Santana from Boston. Or, at the very least, making it hurt for them to acquire him. Right now, the Sox could land Santana at basically only the cost of Elsbury. That’s not enough. I believe the Yanks have to sweeten their offer enough so thst BOston has to put in Bucholz, or at lesast Lester (who really is amazingly over-rated. (The guy can barely throw two consecutive strikes) I believe New York can sweeten the offer without Horne, Jackson or Kennedy in one of two ways:
1-rebuild the deal around Cano, as other have said, withdrawing Hughes and substituting Kennedy
2- Get very aggresive on quantity by offering three more prospects along with Phil and Melky. Let’s say a package of George Kontos, Zach McAllister, Damon Sublett/Brad Suttle (they would have to be PTBNL). These names are but examples. In the Yankee system there are easily 30 quality prospects below the first tier — the Twins can choose who they want. Again, the objective is to raise the ante, and with our depth we can afford to lose them if Boston does happen to fold. But if boston cares to stay in the game they’ll have to at least include Lester. And that might not be enough, so perhaps Bucholz. At that point, the Yankees can withdraw, knowing that Boston has made as questionable and possibly self-defeating a deal as many ous fear we’re about to make.
I hate to think like the devious Lucchino and Epstein, but apparently they’ve taught me well. Our objective should be making Boston pay thru the teeth and we can do it by overwhelming the Twins with quantity along with a strong centerpiece in the deal.
Yes, it is easy to become attached to them when they are billed as Phil Franchise and has a great character.
Not sure if it matters for longevity but i dont think santana pitched till he got to the minors..
And to dispute the comment about 9 200 ip years, he has 4..
but… “If the Yankee trade away Hughes, Cabrera and Kennedy plus spend $150 million on a new deal for Santana, they become older and less financially flexible. The Red Sox would welcome that. The same is true of the Yankees. Sure, send Lester and Ellsbury to Minnesota and drop another $100 million on a pitcher.”
why would the yankees have to pay him $150 million and the redsx only $100 million? lol
I would not be surprised if Santana doesn’t pitch into his late 30s
OOPS!…I mean I’d be surprised if Santana doesn’t pitch into his late 30s
Phil Franchise…
we need a good nick name for Ian…
I will now refer to him as Steve Sanders
Santana will be traded this week.
If you check Santana’s ERA over the last 3 years against the Blue Jays and Orioles, you’ll see they’re not good at all. But his ERA in the 3 games he pitched at Yankee stadium during the regular season over those 3 years, even though a small sample was excellent. If Santana were smart, he would steer his trade to the Yankees, since he’s likely to pitch better in Yankee Stadium. Once he is traded to either team he needs to realize that in all likelihood he’s stuck with that team for the next seven years, as his contract will be unmovable. So therefore, even though he’s not a FA, he needs to treat this trade as if he were, and do everything in his power to steer the Twins to the interested team where he’ll be happiest.
Take the money out of the option… We are the yankees… We will always pay for true talent..
Doreen, if you put that laptop on anything, make sure that you keep the cooling fans clean and clear so air flows in. The computer will overheat and shut down. Best By and Office Depot sell things called cold plates. they plug into your computer in the USB port. no other power. Set the computer on that anywhere and the fans in the plate pull the heat from the computer and vent out an exhaust. They’re about $25 and are great. Weigh about 1 pound. I used them in Iraq and it was perfect.
If the Yankees are serious about this deadline then the redsox will get Johan Santana.
Johan according to sources he told the twins that he will invoke his no trade clause if the twins try to trade him during the season.
Now what would the twins rather have, Some cheap draft picks or a decent promising young OF in Taco Boy?
*Best Buy*
Pete’s lucky first he gets to fo to the baseball meetings, and he gets to leave cold and iky NY.
Not that this matters from a baseball standpoint, but does santana speak good english? Will he do interviews?
Just wondering where SJ44 stands on all of this…..Haven’t seen any postings by him regarding the proposed Santana trade……Maybe he just doesn’t like to go on the record, after all this is a rather major deal…..I do know that regardless of how this all turns out, Phil Hughes is going to have one hell of a career….Sadly it appears it will not be in Yankee Pinstripes…..Damn he’s going to real good……
It’s not too early.
The Yankees have other concerns they need to take care of; the sooner this is done, the sooner they can take care of the other things.
Bottom line:
It is going to hurt the Red Sox. They will have to give up Lester in my opinion. They have lost 2 pichers, assuming they trade Santana, they need a pitcher, they will take the Yankee deal.
If the Sox include Lester so be it, they can have him then. Like someone said, they want to be the Yankees …trade their prospects and add an additional 100 million in payroll…that is a win for us. Eventually the Sox will implode…the only problem is that they may win another WS or two while we’re waiting for the implosion
anyone hear about Damon and the Braves?
check this out
ny-post-johnny-damon-to-the-braves.htm
With Santana telling the Twins that he won’t waive his NTC once the season starts a deal will definitely be made. If the Yanks back out tomorrow and leave the Twins no alternative but the Red Sox deal, IMO they’ve made a huge mistake.
I agree with those who say it would be a shame to lose Johan Santana over an injury prone Single A pitcher like Horne, Alberto Gonzalez or even an Austin Jackson.
The biological clock is ticking on Jeter, Posada and Rivera. By the time the “prospects” develop, the Yankees will need replacements for their core players.
I say win NOW and let the rest of their stacked farm system develop at their own pace. Otherwise, in 2 years the Yanks could be making even more desperate moves than acquiring the best lefty in baseball still in his prime.
“Damn he’s going to (be) real good…”
You hope. No guarantees he’ll turn out like Santana.
GreenBeret7 -
What a timely suggestion! I just noticed how warm the bottom of the laptop felt. Glad to know they make a product to alleviate the problem.
did anyone hear about Braves trading for Damon and Yankees eating portion of his salary?
it’s on MLBfleecefactor.com
I agree with Optimist on this…
We could really be in a bad position if we spend all our time trying to get Johan and they pull the plug at the end… We have to go under the assumption that there is no andy pettite this year…
Matt – I think you’re missing my point. I’m not saying Santana isn’t a great pitcher and a true ace. I’m also not saying that pitchers can’t be productive in their 30s. However, unless you’re Barry Bonds most baseball players start going downhill as they progress through their 30s. So, even if Santana bounced back from last year and was a truly dominating pitcher again, how many years does he realistically have left? If the Yanks gave up Hughes and Kennedy (or Hughes and Horne), they’d be giving up two very high-ceiling pitching prospects that are at the very start of their careers for a guy that will pitch maybe 10-11 more years at most – the last several of which he will almost certainly be showing an appreciable decline in performance.
On top of Hughes and Kennedy you clearly think the Yanks should throw an additional prospect or two, which only continues to skip the scale against this being a smart deal for the Yanks. Put it this way, if a few years ago your team had traded Joe Nathan, Pat Neshek and Justin Morneau for Curt Schilling, would you be loving that deal right now?
Giuseppe Franco – I guess then that you don’t think Melky is an everyday CF? And what about them losing three SP this off season if they deal Santana? Ellsbury or Melky are not going to make as big a difference as a Starting Pitcher. The Twins don’t have pitchers that are ready to be plugged right in now, otherwise they wouldn’t have been asking for Hughes or Bucholz/Lester.
Doreen, it comes ready to go, other than some require two AA batteries. Check and make sure. It will save on your computer battery and save your computer. My pleasure.
i am not trading hughes and Steve Sanders for Santana….
OK, so now the deadline is tomoroow by the end of the day and Cashman has given the Twins a list of players that he can choose from as the third choice. The Yankees need to know if they have a trade soon, so that they can use the 72 hour window, while still at the meetings to help seal the deal. If they can’t at least the Yankees can work on other deals.
One player, specifically, Dontrelle Willis, buy low type player, had a horrible season last year, I think the Yankees could make a Kennedy,Tabata trade to land him. I don’t think it will take a lot but he is an alterative player if Johan does not work. Annother player…I threw him around earlier and I still would like to see him in a yankee uniform is Ben Sheets.
El Comaduce-
He speaks English fine…The Twins used him often in commercials for advertising last year…
Like the deadline because all this nonsense will be over. Hate the deadline because it means all the bosux have to do is wait until Tuesday and call the Twins’ bluff and maybe get him for a lesser package. Look, the Yankees’ offer is FAR superior to the bosux”s. Melky is a more valuable commodity than Laptops. He is a solid, established MLer who is superlative on defense, a .280 hitter with some pop and an unknown upside. And he is 2 years YOUNGER than laptops. The bosux do something right– they have everyone believing he is the second coming of Willie Mays. Basically, he is a younger Crispie. So to then have Hughes in the package– a consensus No.1 pitching prospect at the beginning of the season and who was great when called up and at the end of the season when he regained his arm strength (not bad a performance saving our season at least for a day in the playoffs) makes it a no brainer for the Twins. Plus, they can pick another excellent prospect like Dan McCutchen, Melancon, Cox, David Robertson, etc. As I said, a no brainer. But then again, not sure Smith really has a brain at this point.
I read the Damon to Atlanta rumor as well. I think it was in the NY Post today. It doesn’t seem likely if they trade Melky. As bad of an arm as he has, they don’t have another option (unless they make another deal or sign a free agent). From what I’ve read, the center field prospects aren’t ready yet.
agent 47, it will be a comedy of sorts when Santana invokes his ntc if it gets to point where the Red Sox are allowed to negotiate with Santana and then attempt entice him into a contract less then he desires.
i wonder what the hughes list includes? Maybe we get lucky and they take a Steve Sanders list…
I would not trade Steve Sanders for Dontrelle..
Santana only has a 12 team no trade during the season in 08 so I if the Twins can get a buyer not on his no trade the Santana won’t be able to nix anything. But that’s assuming a team will pay the Twins’ price and cough up the prospects for a 6 month rental.
Too bad buckholtz is not on this forum, i have heard he has alot of experience with HOT LAPTOPS
Sunny 615- Where did you read that he only has a no trade to only 12 teams during the 2008 season?
I THINK buster said he had a full NTC
Matt,
Don’t be so confident in how long or well santana will pitch, particularly into his 30′s.
My team is about to get him and I don’t make those assumptions.
And if you don’t believe me read the article I linked to below which projects the next 5 years of santana’s career. You’ll probably disagree with it but its very eye opening. Its from baseball analysts – an excellent site.
http://baseballanalysts.com/ar....._reall.php
Johan Santana p
4 years/$39.75M (2005-08)
signed extension 2/05, avoided arbitration ($6.8M-$5M)
05:$5.5M, 06:$9M, 07:$12M, 08:$13.25M
may earn award bonuses
$25,000 for All-Star selection, 2nd in AL MVP vote or 3rd in CY vote
$50,000 each for Gold Glove, AL MVP, LCS MVP or 2nd in CY vote
$100,000 each for WS MVP, Cy Young award
limited no-trade clause 2006-08
may block trades to 3 clubs in 05, 8 in 06, 10 in 07 & 12 in 08
full no-trade clause for 2007-08 with top 3 in CY vote in 06 or 07
1 year/$1.6M (2004), lost arbitration $2.45M
1 year/$0.335M (2003)
agent: Peter Greenberg
ML service: 6.122
Cot’s Contracts Blog
He has a full NTC. I read that it turned into a full NTC after he won his last Cy Young.
Count on ESPN featuring the Red Socks report starring Peter Gammons live from the hotel lobby in Nashville. He’s the one that flunked Objectivity 101 six times and plans another try at it after the winter meetings.
Ethan, Brett Gardner is ready to be a 4th outfielder now, and he’s a center fielder, could be pressed into a starting job. There are 3 free agents in Jones, Rowand and Corey Patterson. 2 of them cost only money, no picks.
“Stefan Weaver (wait…..wasn’t the name of a pitching prospect from the 80’s? can’t wait for Ray Fontenot to post):”
You, sir, are a True Yankee Fan.
“Judging from what we’ve read, I don’t think the Yankee brass are exactly excited as to the prospect of trading Hughes for Santana either. They seem to feel they HAVE to have him and keep him away from the Sox.”
I simply hope that the front office understands that a growing majority of Yankee fans feel the long-term risks outweigh the short-term rewards when it comes to weighing the various talents proposed for this trade. If the team takes an extra lump or two in 2008, I want the franchise to understand that the fanbase is sophisticated enough to appreciate that the deal was nixed for the good of the Yankees in 2009, 2010, and beyond.
The Yankees should not be contemplating trading Philip Hughes unless they are aware of a significant injury-related change in how they project him. The Yankees have never – dating back to the days of Stefan Weaver, #1 pitching prospect – had a pitching prospect with Hughes’ potential and accomplishments rise through the organization. I believe the health of the franchise is better served with Hughes and Melky Cabrera (in addition to whatever other prospects might be included) rather than an admittedly excellent 29 year-old pitcher requiring the investment of not only the aforementioned prospects, but well over $100 million.
Santana was not in the top 3 on the Cy Young in 2007 so his limited no trade is in effect. His full no trade is in effect until the season starts in 2008.
why cant the mets or some NL team just trade for him. make this a LOT easier.
The 2007 season isn’t over until spring of 2008. His full no trade is in effect right now. Once the 2008 season starts, he’s down to a limited 12 team no trade.
I think that before the entire negotiation process began, the Yankees FO decided on which players they would be needed to get Santana from the Twins. I figure they came up with a package revolving around Joba, Cano, or Hughes. At that time, they decided which of the three they were more willing to give up. After debate, they decided on Hughes. Obviously they could of claimed Hughes, Joba, and Cano as untouchable, but figured that if things got dicey, and they had a good chance to get Santana, they would eventually have to give up one of those 3. Taking someone off of their untouchable list at that time would show weakness to the Twins and they woudl begin asking for more and more players.
Obviously, the Twins got greedy and are doing that anyway, and thus the deadline that the Yankees have set.
Rebecca-
It’s true that the Yankees have other concerns but there’s not much they can do about them right now. The free agent bullpen pickings are spare and I’d be leery of tradng with anyone right now after showing we’re willing to throw over the best pitching prospect we’ve produced in more than a decade. The point is that nothing else in the way of forseable player moves is as important as Santana’s destination. I for one would not be happy seeing him pitch against us three times in Yankee Stadium for the next six years while cementing an overwhelming and potentially indomitable Boston rotation.
Here’s how I see it: Losing Hughes and say Tabata or Jackson is very bad. Seeing Santana go to Boston is in the long run even worse.
He has a full NTC because of the finish in ’06 or ’07. His finish in ’06 got the full NTC.
1. Sabathia
2. Beckett
3. Lackey
Three years from now, Phil Hughes will that 25 yearold sensation that was once with the NY Yankees……That being said and it has been pionted out many times, the Yanks are about winning now….Santana gives them that edge right now….Do keep in mind, Phil just graduated HS 3 years ago, and he has made quite an impression in his limited action…..The shame is he got hurt…Can only imagine if he was able to continue that night back in May vs. Texas and make the rest of his starts….He very well likely would be the untouchable player right now……
No, I don’t think Melky is an everyday CF. He just happens to play one in NY.
He has a full NTC because of the Cy Young voting in 2006.
I can’t see the Yankees signing a CF to a multi-year deal and trading Damon. They’re holding firm on not trading Jackson in the current deal, so they presumably foresee him as their starter in a year or two. If they could get Jones or Cameron (w/ his suspension) for a year, I say do it, but both probably want multi-year deals.
not to call anybody out for misspelling a name, but, Stefan Wever is the correct way. Born in West Germany.
Santana has a FULL no trade clause for this upcoming season.
The full no trade clause vested when he won the CY Young in 2006.
It is absolutely a full no trade. This was debated endlessly in the press last week with some people getting mixed up by his initial contract language in Cots.
It is a full no trade for the the entire season.
http://www.startribune.com/twi.....38808.html
ah – i stand corrected – i misread the contract terms.
I’m hoping that Stick Michael and Cashman are more involved than the Steinbrenner boys during this process. They seem to have the most restraint and are better evaluators.
But if they are hell bent on getting rid of some of these young guns, then why did they keep Dave Eiland to work with them?
Hello all. I’m the stat o matic. Look for my musings and frieze online.
Sunny615, it said he has a full NTC 07-08 If he gets a top 3 CY vote in 06 or 07. That means he has a full No Trade Clause in effect.
12 in 08 full no-trade clause for 2007-08 with top 3 in CY vote in 06 or 07
Its right there that he has a full NTC for 2007 through 2008 unless he didn’t get a top 3 finish in the Cy Young in either 2006 OR 2007.
Im sure that even if the deadline is to pass, and they Twins decide no to make a trade to the Yankees, they will not deal Santana to the Twins for a lesser prospect list.
They will simply go back to the Yankees and say, Ok we made a mistake, can we have that package with Hughes now.
And knowing how the Yankees operate, they will not reduce the package, and accept the trade.
Even when the Yankees have the chance, they pride themselves on making fair deals, unlike the Sux who have to win on every deal they make. Ie. Arod still got 275 mil even when may say the Yanks could have gotten him for cheaper.
Chicago Dave-
Good post. I agree that many pitchers go down hill when they get older…But look at those pitchers who are truly dominant…They might lose their stuff, but they gain experience…anyways, I don’t think Santana’s stuff will deteriorate for at least 5 years…
Look at these player who are still pitching:
-Randy Johnson is 44 and only started getting bad 4 years ago
-Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz are all still in the top of the rotation and all over 40…
-Shilling and Wakefield are both 41…
-Even Jose Contreras is 35 and a year or two ago he was at the top of his game…(this would leave u with 6 years if it were true of santana)
-Paul Byrd has never been better at 36…
-Kenny Rodger is 43…
Most of these guys are all still pitching and giving their teams 200 innings!
GreenBeret
THANK YOU!
The Geek Squad guy told me yesterday to get a cooling mat for my laptop and I was planning to do so this week. Now I have a better idea of what to look for.
and if this Santana trade goes thru, how long before everyone starts whinning when Damon throws a five hopper to home trying to throw someone out? Damon is better suited in LF and i’d like to see a good defensive CF and keep JD in left.
Pat M.,
I compeltely agree with you. If Hughes doesn’t pull that hammy he would have had an excellent season and been put on the absolute untouchable list along with Joba.
That’s not a knowable fact of course. But I feel that way.
It’s very, very bittersweet to trade him if they do.
Pat M, you are absolutely correct. Phil has been thrown under the bus a bit because of his injury. He was our best pitcher in September and October when he started to regain his arm strngth.
Matt Garza was on XM on Saturday talking about what he learned from Santana. He said aside from the pure talent Santana has, he learned patience and preparation. This sounds like a guy who will continue to hone his craft. A really good pitcher will learn to adjust. At least it seems like Santana is such a pitcher.
PAT M-
The Yankees have the have the resources to win now and win down the road.I mean even back then they hade young players and older players.Cano,Joba,Kennedy,Edwar,Duncan are good enough for this year.
Phil can be a 25 year old sensation or a 25 year old bust.5 years Santana gonna win 85 games 2 Cy youngs over 1,200 strikouts can we get that from the pitchers now.
It’s almost knowable, CB, based on the available facts.
I am sure the Twins are well aware of Hughes’ upside. Its why they insisted on him over Kennedy.
Funny how I was basically saying the same thing in yesterday’s thread as the Baseball Analyst article, and so many of you were calling me an idiot…
Once again – I would not trade Phil Hughes straight up for Santana…Most of the Yankee Prospect Blog writers agree with me.
Hughes over the next 5 years has a great chance to at least match Johan pitch for pitch. Maybe not next season or even 09 but, from 2010 on I bet Hughes is the better pitcher.
The Yankees should be working on their bullpen and 1B. The Starting rotation is solid if they can just throw 20 million plus at Petitte and coax him into pitching another year. After next season we’ll have Sanchez, Horne, Marquez ready to fight it out for the last spot in the rotation.
Under this scenario Next seasons rotation is more than adequate:
Joba
Hughes
Petitte
Wang
Kennedy
Moose
A Six man rotation preserves all the precious arms that no-one seems to think can handle 180 innings…
This is how you know the end is near of the trade talk…Hank is talking again. There is a new interview on newsday. I don’t know how to post it on here. He said the 3rd player is not the sticking point and wouldn’t see it being. So obviously the Twins are asking for much more(like Kennedy) or don’t know what they want.
I have always thought of the Yankees as a team who wants to win the World Series at all costs…I guess the fans don’t care about the World Series anymore…Unless you guys think you are a world series team this year?…Fact of the matter is Johan will give you the best pitcher at least the next 3 years and probably longer…Phil Hughes will not be at his best for a while IMO (young pitchers have to learn a lot of things and experience it the only way)…Santana has learn those things and is ready for a run at the world series…I guess Boston is the only one who wants it anymore…
Finally a deadline otherwise this thing just would have gotten ramped up and up. It is time for Minny to sh or get off the pot so to speak. With Sanata saying he will not void his no trade clause during the season the Twins need to get this done now or risk getting draft picks in return which for them may be just fine but certainly not what they could have gotten in a trade. Also the Yanks cant wait forever on this as Pete has pointed out there are many other things that need to get done and we need to move on.
Melky should not hold this trade up…
Yankees vice president Hank Steinbrenner confirmed that he plans to pull his team’s offer for Johan Santana on Monday.
Just when it looked like the Yankees might have gotten him muzzled. “I think our offer is the best offer,” Steinbrenner said. “We have the best young pitchers in the game, even better than Boston.” The Yankees are believed to be offering Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a prospect for Santana. Steinbrenner indicated that the third player isn’t what’s holding up the deal. “That’s erroneous,” he said. “I don’t think that will be the sticking point.”
Matt – Pretty much all the guys you mentioned (except Rogers, who I personally believe is juicing it) are shadows of the pitchers they were in their “glory” years. Just because they’re still pitching doesn’t mean they’re still Cy Young candidates. I still think Santana only has a finite number of “great” years left in his arm – definitely a single digit number of years. Guys like Hughes, Kennedy, et al. potentially have double-digit “great” years left in their arms (barring injury). Regardless, let’s say all three guys – Santana, Hughes and Kennedy – pitch until they’re forty. That gives you, what, 11-12 years left for Santana versus 30+ years for Hughes and Kennedy combined. Would you want to make that deal?
What will it take to get Haren? Give up Kennedy, Horne & Tabata for him b/c he’s under contract for three years and he can pitch really well in the AL.
Imagine we get Haren and we have this rotation: Haren / Wang / Pettitte / Joba / Hughes.
That would be pretty, pretty good. Obviously, we have to hope Andy returns, but I think Posada and Jeter can convince him to come back for one more season and go out a World Series winner.
If the Yankees do not get Johan, I could care less, I care about Andy Petitte. I hope that he does come back. On another note, I remember reading a comment last night from a reader, they made this point;
If the Yankees do not trade Phil or Ian, in two-three years, we could have a trio of Phil, Ian, Joba sort of like
Zito,Mulder,Hudson
Smoltz,Maddux,Glavine
of the above two trio’s, none of them were under 25. Imagine a trio of all three players under 25, the Yankees might not win the world series next year, but they would have THE most dominant trio in 2-3 maybe 4 years.
I think the Yankees posturing that Damon will be their everyday CF is sort of like when they were saying the same thing about Bubba. Jackson and Tabata are about three years away (rumors say and if they continue to develop). That Japanese fellow seems to want a three year contract. Money deal only (no draft picks etc).
The package the yankees have offered the Twins is way better than anything it looks like Boston has (or will) offer. Two young, cheap, developing, MLB players with tons of upside. Ellsbury looked real good for a month and their untouchable pitchers have serious questions and lack of testing.
The yanks have put a deadline on it, cause they have other things to do this coming week (at the mtgs) and don’t want all their damned time spent dealing with the twins.
Welcome Johan. Let pitchers and catchers report!
For those of you who think Hughes has even more than a slight chance at being Santana then you are a homer…The stuff Santana is doing has never been done before…No one has ever pitched so many innings while giving up so few runs and striking so many out…Hughes has little chance to be Santana and I don’t care how good you think Hughes is…This is not me knocking Hughes, it’s putting what Santana has done in perspective…
“I have always thought of the Yankees as a team who wants to win the World Series at all costs…I guess the fans don’t care about the World Series anymore…”
Come on, Matt, that was weak. Sounds like the type of BS your GM is feeding Cashman to get him to sell the farm.
Joe Monte…Billy Beane (A’s GM) will expect the same offer for Haren that was proposed for Johan. He is a smart man and will make it hard to get Haren.
Hank talks about the Monday deadline.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ings.0849/
still dont agree…
LOL these posters that want Cano traded seriously I’m glad your not my GM, basically because of what Santana has done before and ignoring the fact whoever signs him has to pay up $100 M + on the spot, and you want to give them the farm too ? lets not stop there lets go all out how about we give them Joba and Montero or hell Dellin Betances .. there is a point where you have to say NO !!!
THIS OFFSEASON IS ABOUT ACQUIRING AN ACE, UPGRADING A SP SPOT AND THEN THE BP, NOWHERE IS IT ETCHED IN STONE IT HAS TO BE SANTANA OR BUST
So if the 3rd player is not the problem then what is it???!!!!
Matt – Lots of guys have had years similar to the one Santana had last year, and he’s not even officially in his thirties yet. I’d hold off on fitting him for that Superman costume just yet…
woops, i dont agree with the Straight up phill for johan trade… If your the yanks you have to make that trade…
damn copy and paste
Matt:
The Yankee fans care very much about winning the world series. It is just that we have been trying to get that 1 player via free agency/trade that we thought would us over the top since ’01 and Giambi and it hasn’t worked.
A large number of fans want to try a different approach and feel that no matter how talented Santana seems he will be just like all the others.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome
Dont ever question our desire to win…LOL
Yes, but who has put up his numbers 4 years in a row…
Chicago Dave-
So you are saying that it is more likely that Hughes, Kennedy and Joba will all be hall of famers for the next 11 years than it is that Santana will continue to be a Hall of Famer for 6 years?…umm I disagree…Plus forget about the future, Yankees are not good enough right now, it’s as simple as that…Are you spending 200+ mil to be a playoff team or to win it all?
Also remember everyone, the yanks want to win ten years from now, sure, but they ‘need’ to win both this coming year (last year in our current stadium) and 2009. Cash wants the starting nine at this year’s all-star game/goodbye to yankee stadium party, to be stacked with Yanks.
Let’s cheer loud and win 100 games.
Santana is a great fit because money is not an option
I cant imagine a six man rotation btw… Miss Mussina would have fits…
Chicago Dave-
Last year was by far Santana’s worst year…and it was also an outlier (meaning it wasn’t normal)…He has consistently been much better than last year and he will be this year too…
and what will he do the next 4 that is the question, that is why you can’t go into this blind, your paying him for what he did before for another team I hope people realize that. Atleast I’m glad Stick Micheal knows about that.
Hank Hank Hank…. funny how we hear all this talk about boston being involved for santana but we never hear Theo or Larry speak. Because their position is unknown, it makes them much more powerful….
i want to win one while george can still enjoy it..
“For those of you who think Hughes has even more than a slight chance at being Santana then you are a homer…The stuff Santana is doing has never been done before”
Never done before, huh? Check what Pedro Martinez did from 1997-2003 and then get back to me matt.
And yes I did read the same Jason Stark article you did.
Pedro was even more dominant than Johan at the same age and did it for an even longer period of time.
And before you want to start making johan an immortal check out what Sandy Kouffax did from 62-66 before you start saying “no one has done what he’s done.”
What was that about homers?
who doesn’t
Hughes,Cabrera,Horne,and A.Gonzalez
For
Santanna and Pat Neshek
What do ya think???
If Im the Twins,then I take the Redsux package of Ellsbury,Lowrie etc
then the Yankees package of
Hughes,Cabrera,and a lower minor league player
Brandon,
Assuming that he is going into his prime, and moving to grass – i would think he would continue to pitch as he has in the past…
Boy i can’t wait tomorrow.
Matt – What I said is what I said, period. I said nothing about the Hall of Fame or Hall of Famers. You either understand the arguments I’m making or you don’t.
As for selling the farm to “win it all” next year…No, I’m not in that camp. It’s a strategy that has screwed the Yankees time after time.
In the meantime, scouts say Santana was reluctant to throw his changeup last year. Hmmm…one of his trademark pitches and he totally lost confidence in it. That’s a REAL good sign, isn’t it? Where do I sign up to cough up all my best prospects for this guy?
Brandon-
“THIS OFFSEASON IS ABOUT ACQUIRING AN ACE, UPGRADING A SP SPOT AND THEN THE BP, NOWHERE IS IT ETCHED IN STONE IT HAS TO BE SANTANA OR BUST”
This sounds like every offseason the Yanks have had since 2001.
I think winning for george might push the littlesteins to be a bit more aggressive…
and…
the twins are not trading Neshek because he is cheap and talented…
The heat is on the Yankee FO to get this deal done…..If not for the percieved Boston interest, Cashman & Co. could have much more control….However that’s not the case, and besides Santana is the best Pitcher on the planet….The Yanks have to pull this off as it pays off on two fronts….They get Santana & Boston doesn’t…..It certainly would be much nicer if he were available as a FA, and many of us were projecting that scenero for 09….But it is what it is, and it’s going to cost us Phil Hughes..I like Melky, but he’s viewed as a throw-in basically, as he is replaceable in this winter’s market…..I sill do not buy into Damon back in CF in 08……
Finished my paper before 10 PM!
THIS IS A RECORD FOLKS!
CB-
Some of the things Santana is doing are historic and never have been done before…Like Stark said no one has ever combined the minuscule amount of runs allowed and strike outs like Santana…
But regardless my point still rings true…If you think Hughes is going to get onto a list of Pedro, Santana and Kouffax then you are overly optimistic…
Pat Neshek won’t be traded, he is the reason the Twins are trying to unload Joe Nathan. Neshek is quality and looks to be the future closer. And another note…if the trade with Hughes and Melky won’t even get Santana…why would you think it would get Neskek along with Santana??
Matt
You are another example of why we should not welcome non-yankee fans to this board. They always start out nice and sweet but do not be fooled it is just a matter of time before they start talking crap and getting into arguments with the entire board.
He is no different than that Red Sox fan who comes here to start trouble
Is it mean, or is this “tampering” in every sense of the work?
“Steinbrenner wouldn’t set a specific time Monday for pulling out.
“We’ll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It’s not a bluff. It’s just reality,” he said. “Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear – for his sake, to know that I do want him – but the fact is that I’m not going to play the game.”
*sportsillustraded.com
Sorry — “me” not mean — I mean, it could be mean – lol
Sounds like a conspiracy to me… Kinda like “LOSE CHANGE”…
I heard he did not want to throw the slider (serisosly) not the change…
Adam – I don’t quite follow that last comment
Chicago Dave-
The AL central figured out that Santana was tipping his Change up…and considering Santana has a great work ethic I would not worry about him fixing that it is only a matter of time till he figures out what he was doing…
Is it mean, or is this “tampering†in every sense of the work?
“Steinbrenner wouldn’t set a specific time Monday for pulling out.
“We’ll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It’s not a bluff. It’s just reality,†he said. “Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear – for his sake, to know that I do want him – but the fact is that I’m not going to play the game.â€
__
I was wondering that a bit too. Isn’t it against some rule to say you want someone signed on another team?
Did someone take off the muzzle? No one wants to hear him talk and if he is trying to scare another team into making a trade by talking I don’t think it will happen. He said he wont talk anymore..How long did that work..2 days. Cash tell him to be quite already.
“We’ll see how it goes, but this is not an act. It’s not a bluff. It’s just reality,” he said. “Because as much as I want Santana, and you can make that clear — for his sake, to know that I do want him — but the fact is that I’m not going to play the game. We’ve made them the best offer. And at this point, it’s not going to get any better. So they can decide. At this point, it’s up to them. I don’t think they want to lose us in this thing, obviously. Nobody wants to lose the Yankees in a negotiation.”
Get it right, Santana was reluctant to throw his slider.
Mike:
I think when you are negotiating a trade for someone, it’s pretty much understood that you want them on your team.
Well that may be true about Neshek being cheap to the Twins,but Nathan is going to cost more in player talent,and Rincon supposedly failed his physical for the TB Ray trade.
What Im trying to do here is sweeten the pot for the Twins,while getting a relief pitcher along with Santanna.
All the Boston writers that Ive heard on the radio this weekend,have said that the Yankees REALLY need to make this trade happen,and that the REDSUX should do it as well while they have the Yankees under their foot.
As far as I am aware, it is tampering. But Hank’s been saying this kind of stuff for a while now.
Any news from Bobcat or SJ44today?
Hank sounds like a fool.
Matt,
I think the world of Santana. But for you to just simply state “The stuff Santana is doing has never been done before”
as a general statement shows a really narrow understanding of baseball history.
Or you are being the same kind of overly enthusiastic homer that you are accusing yankee fans of being.
And no I am fully aware that it is very unlikely Phil Hughes will be in the Pedro/ Santana class.
But did you read that statistical projection from baseball analysts I put up before.
The Santana from 2008-2013 is probably not going to be as good as the santana of 2003-2008. That’s just a statement of liklihood that you cannot dispute.
How much “worse” will he be. I don’t know. But just like it is correct in saying it is unlikely that Hughes will ever reach the Santana level it is correct to say Santana over the next 5 years in unlikely to be as good as the Santana of the past 5.
So before you can say Santana is a “historic” player you need to let history take place.
Gotta love Hammerin’ Hank. Hope he holds true to his statement. This has gone on long enough. I would rather see the Yankees miss the playoffs next year and keep their talent than keep playing this game.
Stick to the plan. If the deal works out then fine, but if not, then move on.
Greg C:
good point. lol
tommy, it is probably just on the non tampering side… technically not tampering… but close…
well, hank spoke up as bobcat said he would. that could either put the yanks over the top or completely submarine everything. my guess is the latter, but you never know.
Captain’s Corner– Exactly. Doesn’t this suggest the third player is someone more valuable than we think. (Tabata?)
I need to go on record saying I love Hank he says publicly what everyone else has said in here the Twins are plying Boston against NY and vice Versa and he will not take itanother day. They have put their best offer on the table and the Twins need to either do the deal with us or someone else or move on. Also want to say this is ecatly what Bobcat said would happen that when Hank spoke it would all come down one way or the other.
My other favorite line was the Boras line about Opryalnd how he made a wrong turn and got lost for 20 minutes. I guess he will use that excuse when he ex[plains what happened with Arod. I made a wrong turn and 20 minutes laster Arod was already meeting with the Steins without me.
“Gotta love Hammerin’ Hank. Hope he holds true to his statement. This has gone on long enough. I would rather see the Yankees miss the playoffs next year and keep their talent than keep playing this game.”
I second that. I’m fine with eating a few years to keep the young guys.
i didn’t need your hero bobcat to tell me that hank would be opening his mouth. please….
Hank just sent a very public message to Johan
“I would not worry about him fixing that it is only a matter of time till he figures out what he was doing…”
As Yankee fans, we’ve heard this line many times before. Let’s see…Jose Contreras, Javier Vazquez, Jeff Weaver…and the list goes on. So, I’ll forever be suspicious when I hear this sort of thing…
But speaking again of the Hall of Fame…Randy Johnson was also supposed to have some “Hall of Fame”-type years left in him when the Yanks traded for him. Not so much…
Changeup or slider…Does it really matter? The “best pitcher in baseball” shouldn’t be losing confidence in his pitches at the age of 28!!!
OK so Neshek is cheap and valuable to the Twins especially if they unload Nathan soon,Rincon might have problems,is there another reliever on their team that might be of interest??
My offer of the 4 players was mainly to get Santanna and a reliever while BETTERING the REDSUX offer which includes Ellsbury……..which all of sudden he is now available,after all we heard was that they did not want to trade him.
i feel better knowing that the third player is not the holdup. i would be very disappointed if that were the case. if it is tabata, i call that a fair offer. though he is far from the majors, his talent is undeniable, and he will, if nothing else, hit .300 and get on base at a fair clip in the major leagues. that’s not bad.
What is Hank’s credibility now, given the backtracking from the “never again” rhetoric after A-Rod’s opt-out? Does he think to himself that that wasn’t backtracking (esp. since he negotiated against himself to give A-Rod crazy money)? I’m confused, genuinely confused…
Disagree with this. Think about the quote that was in there. Wedged in the middle was a specific comment directed right to Santana.
You can make that clear – I want him. While the Yankees can’t be talking directly to Santana, who’s to say that Abreu hasn’t chatted him up? Who is to say that the Yankees don’t know if he wants to play as a Yankee?
To me, that portion – coming on the heels of Santana saying he wouldn’t be open to a trade mid-season speaks volumes. Santana was putting it out there that a deal should get done, now the Yankees are saying it as well.
utilityman,
just so you know — ellsbury has been on the table for the last week, just without lester. nothing has changed, except that in the package with ellsbury was a “slightly improved” package of players.
Thanks El. I don’t want us to have a “tampergate” scandal on our hands like that pats with video gate.
East Side Yankee
I realize that many non-Yankee fans do come on this blog only to cause trouble and to argue, however that is not the case with everyone. I have been visiting this blog for about six months and although I haven’t always agreed with everyone (but then again not all Yankee fans agree with each other) that is what makes it interesting and it is not my intent at all to argue or cause problems. As a point of information many times people say they would never visit the blog of another team but I can assure you that many Yankee fans do visit and post on Sox blogs because I read them every day.
CB-
I think it’s hard for anyone to have a true sense of history in baseball…the tradition in this sport is crazy and they’ve been playing it for way too long…
I am not saying Santana is the best pitcher ever…I am saying he is the best pitcher since Pedro Martinez was in Boston…
I guess I have gotten a little too worked up right now and I will try to be more respectful in my future posts…It’s just hearing Yankee fans call Bill Smith greedy was ridiculous…and also it seems that if something that was speculation is repeated enough times on this board that everyone will start to think it is fact…It’s a slippery slope, because once one thing is thought fact, then they go off that and make another speculation off the speculation…some of the stuff on this board is rediculous, but I should not respond to that…
I apologize, but what is wrong with a little arguing anyways
I like the comments. He’s not breaking any news (except maybe about the 3rd player). Just confirming what has been written everywhere. He’s putting the onus on the Twins.
I’m also glad he seems to realize the quality of the Yankees pitching prospects. Hopefully, this will lead to intelligent trades now and in the future.
I don’t like Hank being so vocal. At all.
But I do appreciate how seriously he takes yankee tradition. I think he’s genuine about that. In this statement and also the stuff with Arod.
Also, someone needed to say what he did. The twins were trying to play them. That’s finished. It probably doesn’t need to be him, but then again Cash never seemed to enjoy that vocal role.
And before people start saying he’s a bufoon, etc. – remember he spoke after Santana did. That statement came out after santana said what he did about the no trade clause and the regular season.
It’s up to the twins. Hat tip to Bobcat.
i was asked by a reader to post this:
Dear Mr. Cashman,
I’ll try to be brief.
Please don’t succumb to the media pressure to trade Phil Hughes to land Johan Santana. Contrary to the opinions you might be reading in the newspapers, the Yanks do NOT NEED Santana. It would be nice, but not worth giving up a potential #1 ace-type guy for.
I’m sure you know all the reasons: Santana’s decline over the last few years (and during 2007′s latter half), Hughes’ resurgence in September and October when he became the Yanks best pitcher, not to mention all the cost controlled years of Hughes that would be thrown away vs. having to sign Santana to a long, lucrative extension. Also, Dave Eiland was just promoted to pitching coach – if not to help out the youngsters, why even do it?
Myself and a large majority of Yankee fans I’m in touch with feel the same way. Kennedy, Melky, Ajax, sure. Replace Kennedy with Hughes? No way. Kennedy should be a solid #3/4 pitcher in the Bigs but doesn’t project much higher. Hughes projects to be that frontline, ace starter that every team covets. Again, he’s on his way up (he was a league average pitcher as a 21-year-old – the youngest in all MLB in ’07) while Santana is on his way down.
If Boston gets Santana, so be it. They’ll probably have to give up a boatload of talent to do it, and while their 2008 rotation would be very strong, I prefer to hold onto the guy who will be strong for the next 10-15 years instead of the next 5 (while costing $100 million less). Why is Clay Buchholz deemed ‘untouchable’ yet Hughes, who projects better (better fb, better size, younger, better minor league stats) is not?
One last thing, on a personal note, it’s far more fun for us fans to root for homegrown Yankees than for the latest ‘veteran star’ that was acquired via trade or free agency. Anyway, I hope you feel the same way and won’t pull the trigger on the proposed deal with Hughes in it.
Thank you for your time,
Travis G.
yeah, hank’s statement is quite obviously tampering. but at this point, what’s the difference?
i also find the leak by santana’s people to be convenient. came out right after heyman reported the yankees deadline (or right before). either way, something will get done tomorrow.
Comparing those guys to Santana, is like comparing A-Rod to Danny Tartabull…
Oh really
I read here and elsewheres that they were offering
Lester,Lowrie,Crisp,and the ML pitcher
The Ellsbury replacing Lester trade just became known within the last 24 hrs.
The continuous talk about Neshek is ridiculous. Why would the Twins even consider getting rid of him? He hs locked in long-term and is cheap. Also, if they lose Nathan, he could take over. Trading him makes absolutely no sense.
Oh please people…Hank has opened his mouth whenever there has been a question as to how things were going to turn out for the Yankees.
He opened his mouth when AROD opted out and when he was about to come back. He opened his mouth when Mariano hesitated in taking the final deal the Yanks offered.
He even opened his mouth when the Yanks first started talking to the twins last Sunday.
Hank always opens his mouth…if Bobcat was really good he would have told you when hank would hush up
Either a) The Twins want much more then just Hughes and Melky and are testing the Yanks and are calling there bluff saying we know you will go much higher then that offer. or b) they are using the Yanks to make Boston up there offer because they want to make a deal with them.
Either way I really think Hanks comments are stupid and might not sit well with the Twins and they might do a deal with Boston just because of it.
El Comaduce – There was no comparison made. I was referencing a line Matt mentioned that many troubled Yankee pitchers have used before.
I never thought I (or anyone) would reference Keats on this blog, but he’s got a poem about a maiden trapped in a castle and all she has to keep her going is her memory/imagination about her knight in shining armour.
One evening, the knight shows up to rescue her. He crosses the moat, fights about 500 dudes – all that knight stuff – and shows up a little smelly, wet and tired.
The maiden looks at him and tells him he’s not as perfect as she imagined him – he’s smelly, wet and tired. The guy in her dreams is perfect she says.
The knight tells her she can wait around for the imaginary knight, or be saved the real thing – albeit a little smelly, wet and tired – and since the guards are coming down the hall to get them both, she has to decide if she’s going to to wait for the imaginary knight or get rescued by the real one – who might be a little smelly, wet and tired.
As Yankee fans, we can wait for the perfect prospects to become the perfect pitchers, or we can battle the Sox with the real pitchers we can get. Some may say Santana’s numbers are a little “smelly/wet/tired” compared to previous years, but he’s real now. The Phil Hughes of the future might not show up for a few years.
So it’s cool if you don’t want Santana, just don’t complain if we’re in the tower for a few
Matt,
Just so you know. I agree with your point of view. santana is the best pitcher in baseball since pedro’s peak. smith is correct in seeking out the best package available. but, don’t you think a package headed by hughes, along with another useful piece in santana, as well as a third talented minor leaguer, should be enough?
Oh and in no way is that last post mean I am backing off on what was said before
People think Hank is an idiot. Partially that’s what I love about the guy. A lot of people are underestimating the guy. He is very calculated. People here rip him for opening his mouth, but everything I have read that he says has had a specific agenda, and in most cases he achieves what he set out to do. Don’t be surprised if the phone rings tomorrow and Bill Smith is on the other end.
The yanks putting a Deadline on this deal is like them saying they WONT RESIGN AROD
are you kidding me?
they really are letting Mr Smith and the twins bend them over.
haha this is pathetic
I may have missed this from other who posted earlier but if you were the GM and the choice was Hughes or Ellsbury, who would you take?
If you look at the Twins position, they are saying that they have enough pitching to get by but need a CF, so Ellsbury is more important.
It also says that the Twins value Hughes higher than Lester or they would have taken the Red Sox deal.
So, how much of this is a game? When was the last time starting pitching took second seat to a CF.
That tells me that they are fleecing the Yankees of Hughes “just because”. And that the Twins evaluation of their needs may not be as exact as they would like.
Matt,
Its no problem. I just think there’s no point in doing exactly the same thing you are accusing other fans of doing.
And I do just think there is something wrong (as I did with that Stark’s article) to careve up statistics so you can say someone is doing something historic in sport filled with tradition without context.
I mean, Sandy Kouffax. That’s the stuff that matters in baseball.
Reggie 44- Good point and good night for now. Tomorrow should be an interesting day!
My apology Chicago Dave… I thought you where trying to compare acquiring RJ to acquiring Santana…
Here’s hoping the deadline comes and goes without a trade.
ESPN.com reported on Sunday that the Redsux would include Ellsbury in the deal with the Twins,but pull bacl left starter Jon Lester.
article posted on all ML teams sites
i would take hughes over elsbury…
utilityman
thanks for the update.
now if you woulda mentioned that about 12 hrs ago it woulda been some new news..
just a little late
It sounds like Hank is saying hey Johan just incase you read this, we want you but your organization is impossible to deal with and the #1 pitching prospect is not even enough to get you.
Foxsports.com says that Ellsbury has been on the table all along, depending on the package in return. Not sure if it’s true or not. The article was discussed early this afternoon.
Hey Mike …….it was an idea,thats all,As I stated in a previous post,do you know of a another Twin reliever that would be of value to the Ynakees??Other then Nathan and Neshek???
with hank saying that the 3rd player is not a sticking point..
well that doesnt do much for the twins.
hank is tired of the twins talking to the sox, and i dont blame him
cuz he knows if the sox offer up bucholtz and ellsbury.. or even lester and ellsbury
its game over for the yanks
Utilityman…wasn’t directed towards you, just making a general statement because i’ve seen it a lot.
Personally, I enjoyed seeing Andy Pettitte develop in pinstripes. Or maybe we should have traded him for a “now” pitcher back in 1993, 1994 or ’95?
Doesn’t anyone want to see homegrown talent on this team anymore?
Yeah well try the article was published at 4:22 PM today 12/2/07
So that would be 6 hrs ago,and was in response to berra8′s post about Ellsbury being in the deal for a week now.
So what is the truth then????I hear Ellsbury wasnt in any deal until I got home an hour ago and read the article on yankees.com
How is it tampering if the Yankees who are in TRADE TALKS with the Twins for Santana end up saying they want him? Would it be right for Hank to say I really don’t want him, but figured this would make some fun for the GM meetings?
a deadline? – when did the Yankees or Hank ever say they wouldn’t re-sign A-Rod if he opted out? They said they weren’t going to pursue him. There is a difference.
Anyone know whether the Yankee deadline came out first or the Santana no waiver statement? Just trying to read the tea leaves.
Juan Rincon would be of value…someone said he failed a physical…They never offered a link to prove it, so I consider it false until someone proves it…They may have thought that because they didn’t realize that Morlan (the dude who replaced rincon) is actually a stud…
If the Sox offer ellsbury and lester or buchholz then the twins should accept that offer immediately.
I’d be quite pleased if the sox had to give up ellsbury and buchholz. no problem with that at all.
The yankees have an organizational plan and they are sticking to it. They went as far as hughes and that’s that.
If the twins take a deal for ellsbury over hughes you will regret that for the next 15 years.
It is kind of crazy that folks are angry at the Twin’s GM for trying to make the best deal he can….
The guys over at river avenue blues are reporting that they’ve heard some rumors that santana is going to demand opt out clauses in his contract similar to ARods.
I want no part of that type of circus. They should not give into that nonsense.
http://riveraveblues.com/2007/.....antana-be/
I love Andy, but if we woudl have traded in any of those years for Greg Maddux, we might have done ok..
Maddux is a good comparison, because he has been so consistent for so long…
the yanks have a great plan.. build up young talent and stick with it..
but i will say this.. a rotation of johan, beckett, schilling dice k lester wakefiled is better then anything the yanks got or will get..
and the sox have money to.. so the yanks can build from within..
but boston is distancing themselves from the yanks..
and i will say this.
the twins know talent when they see it..
if the Gm’s think ellsbury bucholtz is better then melky hughes.. im sticking with it..
What a player wants and what they get can be very different things. A-Rod’s new contract probably won’t have any opt outs.
Thank You Hank it’s about time someone said it !!!
Here’s a confirmation on Rincon from the Twins site:
“There is nothing wrong with Juan Rincon,” Bill Smith said. “He might pitch Winter Ball. He’s fine.”
Fixing bullpen > getting Santana.
Save Phil Hughes. Fix the bullpen, and the Yankees are good to go for next year.
Update:
1) None of what has happened today should have come as a surprise. The process is as advertised. Public posturing and heading toward an ending.
2) The ratcheting up/down of players is also as advertised. Boston decided to “giveth and taketh away” in their tweaking. Makes sense.
3) Yankees holding fast to their original lists.
4) Hank speaks, coming to a head.
5) I think we talked about most of the above occurring at some point, so all is on track. How will it end up? Who knows, but I’ll go back to something Hank said days ago, and it holds true…”It’s up to the Twins.”
6) And Hank is exactly right. On the eve of the Annual Meetings, there are more fish to be fried. If it’s not Santana, it’s going to be somebody. The Yankees can’t get shut out of every top SP transaction, and can’t expect to be IN every top SP transaction, so “they gots to know”.
It’s up to the Twins.
Getting Santana will help the pen because he wil deliver 220 or so quality innings.. I dont trade any of the trinity for a reliever anyway…
El Comaduce – I guess you don’t remember any of the big games Pettitte pitched for us…or that big triple our new manager hit off Maddux to beat him in the ’96 Series.
Personally, I’m glad we kept Andy, and I wouldn’t trade Hughes for anybody right now.
If thats true CB…..then I agree with ya…….enough of theese out clauses.
I am glad there is a deadline set by Hank/Yankees…and I agree that if the Twins dont like Hughes over Ellsbury then the Yanks walk away and keep Hughes.
Glad to hear twins fans are so worried about the future prospects of a 26 time world champion.
And the twins are excellent talent evaluators:
“A Twins’ insider agrees that Smith, the Minnesota GM, believes Hughes is the best pitcher he can acquire for Santana, better than either Lester or Buchholz from the Red Sox.”
If you take a light hitting, very fast centerfield prospect over a front end pitching prospect you’ll regret it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....n_p-2.html
Matt -
This is why Juan Rincon is damaged goods: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7709943/
bobcat – is it possible that the twins would take a Ian Kennedy list? Perhaps once they learn we are not going to budge on any of the Hughes lists…
Here’s a confirmation on Rincon from the Twins site:
“There is nothing wrong with Juan Rincon,†Bill Smith said. “He might pitch Winter Ball. He’s fine.â€
And we all know after these past few days, that Bill Smith would never stretch, distort, or not tell the whole truth?
Bobcat,
Any truth to these rumor that santana is demanding an opt out clause in his new deal?
The mere mention of CANO should not be listed as any possibility.
Stop wasting your typing of the four letters and space on the damn comments in any way shape or form.
Seriously it justs add more time to refresh the page.
Only in Bill Smith’s wet dreams does robbie do a mango strobe light dance with a twins uniform. So focus on the real potential players in this- Phil-thy, Melky, Ian, alberto gonzalez and the remaining prospects not mentioned as off the table already (horne, betances, ajax, tabata etc…)
yeesh i wish this would wrap up already, how nervewracking
minnysota, how do you know that they view the RS offer as better? You don’t. Right now its posturing.
You don’t go in to buy a car and rave about how much you love it, or you get hammered. This is some of the same stuff.
With all the crap being posted and reported about how good the RS offer is, then why isn’t it done? Its about getting more from the Yankees. Its because the Twins more than likely see more in the Yankees offer and are working to sweeten it up even more.
In any sale, once you have the price you are willing to have then its time to close it or move on. Thats where all this is. The Yankees have made their offer. The Sox have theirs in. This has gone on long enough and its time to decide.
the yankee deadline came out first, but it was only rumored to be “early in the week” not monday. the no waiver statement came out at around 9pm, and the monday deadline came out right around 10pm.
at least i think that’s how it happened…
Bobcat, you said a few days ago that is was 75% Yanks getting Santana and 50% that hughes would still be a yank.
We know that hughes will be gone, but could you tell us the percentages of santana to yanks now?
Chicago Dave, I love Andy, but i think we would have been OK with Greg Maddux… Call me crazy…
Your dealing on speculation either way, but it is a safer bet to think the ace will be an ace (at Johans age) – as opposed to the talented kid become the best pitcher in baseball..
Rincon tested positive for a substance in 2005…That hardly is damaged good, plus Giambi was doing much more than Rincon ever did…
BOBS MY UNCLE
i didnt say the sox offer was the best offer.
i said the twins know talent..
and the twins GM’s think the ellsbury bucholtz offer is better then the yanks offer..
read my post before you try to respond to it..
remember the last time we traded with you? knobloch?
and our recent trade of Aj pierzynski?
the twins know talent..
Lol-
I love the Minny fans on here trying to stick it to the Yanks by saying we can’t beat a Johan, Becket, Dice K rotation.
Guess what Minny fans, you’re in the same leauge. You’re not beating them or the Yanks, or Detroit, or Anaheim, or Seattle, or Cleveland no matter who you get.
And stop acting like the Twins are the end all be all of talent evaluation. I haven’t seen any penants or World Series from the Twins in a loooooong time.
I say the Yanks should back out of this garbage now, and let the Red Sox have their cake too.
Good times..
i really want melky to stay now that ive been thinking about it
(source)
YOU GO HANK !!!!
the twins gave up on big poppy
I can guarentee you this..
the twins know that if the sox get johan.. that the yankees are done for a few years
thus the yanks would be wise to sweeten the deal.
but in my own opinion
i want hughes and melky.. then some 3rd base prospect..
and you got a deal.. if i was GM!
How would bobcat or anyone else really know what type of contract Santana or his agent have in mind…..So much bs gets delived right around this time everyear…..
Matt – OK, so now ‘roid abusers are OK in your book as well? Sorry, but now we’ve entered the realm of the ludicrous…
And what does it matter how much Giambi was doing in comparison to what Rincon was doing? Giambi has sucked ever since and Rincon hasn’t been exactly stellar either. That’s the point…
Butch Wynegar
Who and at what time did someone mention CANO s name today???
I asked this question yesterday…If you had to inclue a Hughes or a Cano in the deal which would you deal,it has to one or the other.
barring injury… always add barring injuy
minnysota
If that’s the case it will be all over when the Sox try to chump change Santana and he then invokes his ntc. We keep Hughes, Melky and the prospect then sign Santana in the off-season. Relief is only temporary.
ADAM
the yanks couldnt beat the sox when they didnt have Johan..
so dont tell me that the yanks are all of a sudden going to beat them when they have johan..
all im saying is that the YANKS NEED PITCHING..
and for gods sake who is better then Johan? NO ONE
speaking of beating cleveland and detroit.. how did that go for you the past couple years?? yea… about that!
what makes the yankee fans think they will get johan in the off season?
If the yanks don’t get Santana and Sox do it is not the end of the world. While the rotation of Sanatan, Beckett and Dice-K will not be fun, it’s not out of the question that they cannot be beaten. I seem to remember a team with Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine being beaten by the Yankees not once, but twice in the world series.
Thanks just if they don’t get him all hope is not lost. I kind of like being the rebellion against Theo Vader and the “New Evil Empire.”
Rebecca, I just watched the Fins-Jets game. Ugh. I owe you that $10 Amazon gift certificate. You have my E-mail address, so send me your mailing address and I’ll send it to you.
All I can say is please, Bill Cowher save us.
If the Yankees don’t acquire Santana, this going to be a long, wretched winter.
At least, I have the Knicks, right? Someone shoot Dolan and free us.
Wow, Hank really needs to pipe down about pulling his offer. His tough guy act is beginning to wear very thin. Luckily for us, he has gone back on his word before.
I hope Cash is smoothing things over with the Twins behind the scenes.
Actually we won the season series last year… next point..
twins gave up Big Papi
you got me there..
Anybody knows how the twins acquired Johan?
El Comaduce:
Not likely the Twins would do that. Their fan base has been hearing Hughes for too many days.
CB:
Most of the agents have been asking for opt-outs on the big boys for years. Hicks is the only one to have caved, because it was Boras and A-Rod. Haven’t heard anything regarding specific language, though.
Tommy Gun:
Personal opinion: The Twins can sell the Yankees’ package to their fan base more so than the Red Sox’ offer. Plus, I think the Yankees’ offer fills more holes than the Red Sox. Melky fills an OF spot, Hughes plugs into the SP spot. The Red Sox offer only plugs one or the other, so my guess is that Santana goes to the Yankees, but Hank is the wild card here. It’s not a bad thing that he’s involved. The bullying by the Twins will stop.
I would put Austin Jackson on the table. Although he has a tremendous ceiling, he’s pretty overvalued right now considering he has excelled only briefly in the lower minors.
AL Batting Champion, AL MVP and the “best pitcher in baseball” = ZERO WS titles for the Twinkies.
When Twins’ fans laugh at us, I laugh right back.
Anybody knows how the twins acquired Johan?
Rule V draft.
Was originally Marlins property then I think the Astros
Twins got Santana from the ‘Stros.
minnysota, the Yankees didn’t have a good start to the year and yet closed the gap with Boston through the second half of the season. Had the Yankees not started 50 games with an assortment of not ready for prime time pitchers – that is almost 1/3 of the season, the Yankees would have won the division. Easily. The Yankees had a winning record against the head to head match ups against Boston last season. So just who didn’t beat Boston?
Now you are just showing that you don’t really follow baseball, just your own team. That’s fine, but you need to watch how far you go with the statements then.
UtilityMan December 2nd, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Butch Wynegar
Who and at what time did someone mention CANO s name today???
I asked this question yesterday…If you had to inclue a Hughes or a Cano in the deal which would you deal,it has to one or the other.
____________________________________________________________
fUltilityMan….ummmmmm….hit CTRL+F and cano shows up over 90x in a thread about a trade he will NEVER EVER be in.
The Yankees won the season series against the Red Sox. How is that not beating them?
Another reason the Yanks want an answer soon from the Twins.
With MC involved, they will have a hole in CF.
FA Rowland will most likely sign this week and the Yanks have an interest. His availability window is closing.
Chicago Dave
you bring up a great point..
cept, Arod, Jeter, Rivera, Clemens, Scheffield, Giambi, Pettite, Damon, Abreu, Matsui, Wang, Mussina, Randy Johnson, Some jap that wears sunglasses, Cano,
i mean .. think about.. just think about it..
how how how how how many rings????
thats right.. boston has 2.. and you were up 3 games to na na none?
please
I will be surprised if the Sox don’t give up one of Lester/Bucholz to get the deal done.
the yankees have the most money and santana likes new york.
if santana hits the market next year – the yankees will sign him if they chose to.
They will be moving into a new stadium. Their revenues will increase by tens of millions.
He will be recruited by Jeter, Arod, Rivera and Posada.
Santana loves new york.
his marketing opportunities as a yankee, both during his playing career and in retirement if he enters the hall of fame as a yankee would be far larger than any other possible situation.
They will give him a $175 million dollar contract if they need to.
Guaranteed – no. Odds on favorite. Absolutely.
Carlos Beltran was willing to take $17 million dollars less than what he took from the mets to play for the yankees. think about that.
I like what Hank is saying…the Twins do need to stop this back and forth thing….as it was said the other day on this blog,there is a time to walk away from a bargaining table,and the Yankees have set that time.
Im guessing based on Peters entry that the deadline in midnight Monday???
So its T minus 25 1/2 hours to go
Nice.. got some smart folks here
yup Johan, rule 5 draft.
so i say we take whatever for him..
its not a matter of who did what and closed the gap by how many games..
yanks need johan.. i want melky hughes.. and i want this deal done
Minnysota:
I see you’re showing your true racist colors…get lost jerk and take your racist diatribe elsewhere
Bobcat,
Appreciated. Makes sense. Don’t see Hank pulling a Hicks on this one.
I don’t exactly understand what you are basing your evaluation of Austin Jackson on. Most scouting sites are very high on him, as well as the Yankees’ and Twins’ scouting departments.
we should join the yanks and twins..
use the twins GM’s for drafts
and the yanks GM’s for free agents..
now thats a dynasty..
Hey Minnysota — I thought people from your state were kindly, sportmanlike and nice. Oh well, live and learn.
And by the way the Yankees HAVE been able to beat the Red Sox. They won the series series against them this year. In fact, the Red Sox have collapsed the last three seasons, allowing the Yankees to overtake them twice and almost overtake them, closing a 14 game lead, a third time. Unfortunately, we didn’t get to play them in the post season.
MINNYSOTA-
Thanks and all, we know the Yankees’ needs.
Minnestota only needs;
4 starting pitchers,
1 third basemen,
1 short stop,
1 second baseman,
a left fielder,
a center fielder,
a bench and a bullpen.
MN fans have some God Complex lik they created all the talent in MLB. It’s for that reason only, I don’t want Santana now that I can’t stand the MN fans who will be on here every time Santana starts next year looking for a thank you note.
“Some jap that wears sunglasses,”
Sorry minny that comment is going to get you banned from this blog.
That racist crap does not fly.
Bobcat,
Is there any chance the Yankees pull Hughes off the table? I know you mentioned the Twins wouldn’t take Kennedy, but are the Yankees willing to take that chance?
Amen to that East Side. Listen “minny,” it’s nice that you want the deal to be done. Just like we’d like you to take your minature closed-mind back home. While your at it, why not develop some more players that your cheap 3 billion dollar owner won’t pay to keep.
Aaaah,Bobcat thank you for your opinion.Yankees should match redsucks and offer Phil or melky but not both, make the twins choose.(wishful thinking)
Minnysota
What is the answer…..was it Marlins-Astros-Twins-????
Butch Wynegar
Thanks for answering my question about Cano being mentioned today…..I did not check in until 9PM tonight.I saw that MasterWANGKEE was one of the posters that mentioned him.
Bobcat-
Is NYM still not budging on Jose Reyes, I’ve heard whispers about them maybe changing their mind…Any other teams on the radar or is it gonna stay Sox and Yanks
minnysota –
Like your buddy Matt, you’re completely missing the point. It’s easy to make fun of the Yankees, sure…as long as you can sit there smugly and say, “We’re just a poor second-tier team without the money or the talent. How could we ever be expected to compete with the big, bad Yankees and Red Sox?” Well, the point is you “small market” wannabes are full of crap…You have a former batting champion, a former MVP and the so-called “best pitcher in baseball”…not to mention the infamous “Whip” Liriano for a little while there…But still you’ve come up with nothing, nada, zilch. So, what’s your excuse now big boy?!!! That’s what I thought…nothing.
Also, how can you call yourself a fan of the Twins when you’re desperate for them to trade their best player? Makes no sense to me. Maybe you’re just a Sox troll without the balls to admit it.
I’m playing catch up Buster O says the Red Sox told the Twins they could have Ellsbury but then they cant have Lester. Makes no sense to me, I understand Lester is a blue chipper and you don’t toss him away but unlike the Yankees and IPK they wouldn’t need him for their 2008 rotation. If their willing to part with Ellsbury and go with Crisp? in center then they cant let Lester stop them from adding Johan
damn.. how am i not the nice guy?
look at you yankee fans..
like 3 or 4 of ya just blasting me
what did i say wrong?
i know i mentioned that the yanks havent won in awhile.
but dang.. you cant seriously tell me you think your better then boston is right now?
seriously?
I think hank is hurting us in the negotiations…
we should have kept hughes untouchable until the last possible moment.
and then, I still think the yanks are better with hughes than with cano. I would have dealt cano.
Everyone knows that pitching wins. Yanks have a ton of hitters.. we would be fine without cano.. Hughes could be in the rotation for the next 15 years!
Cano + Horne would have been my offer.
Then the yanks would have santana, hughes, joba, wang and mussina in the rotation with kennedy as the long man.
That is better for now and the future. Horne would have been blocked anyway, and cano- we’ll he will be missed, but not as much as hughes.
MINNYSOTA-
You got no rings since ’91. And you got creamed by the Yanks both time you played us.
DOn’t try to to inject yourself into the Sox-Yanks rivalry. You really don’t understand it.
Minny, let us not forget to read the “fine” print!
“It is a condition of your use of the comment features associated with the blogs that you do not: Use the site to post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information of any kind . . .”
Minnysota,
You root for a consistent loser.
Not only is your team a losing team, you are a profound loser yourself with your racist comments.
I could care less whether the Yankees get Johan or not, but I do care that this blog not get tainted by dimwitted morons who know nothing about baseball.
Guys take it easy on Minny – making a bad joke does not make you a racist…
minnysota – are you from minny???
I am wondering what the word is out there, trading santana and losing torii before opening a new stadium…
minnysota – That racist attempt at humor was very unnecessary and extremely inappropriate. It’s one thing to come in here and be contradictory to rile some Yank fans up, but you should never have gone to such a level.
real special miny.
A Yankee fan tells you the truth about your team
AL MVP, AL CY Young, AL Batting Champ = no world series
You racially attack one of the most decent men on the Yankees
Go AWAY…you small minded jerk
Bobcat,
The other SP markets you mentioned…are they just the names we’ve been hearing (Haren, Blanton, Bedard, Willis) or are there more to be had that no one’s mentioned (don’t have to give names)?
I don’t exactly understand what you are basing your evaluation of Austin Jackson on. Most scouting sites are very high on him, as well as the Yankees’ and Twins’ scouting departments.
I base it on the fact that Jackson has only excelled for half a season of A+ ball and the HWL. He still strikes out a ton, and has yet to prove himself for a full season or at higher levels. I guess it depends on how much you weigh tools compared to demonstrated performance.
It’s refreshing to see that even though Yankee fans can be obnoxious as hell, we aren’t racist
Warm fuzzies.
Dec 13, 1999: Selected by Florida Marlins from Houston Astros in Rule 5 major league draft. Then, Florida Marlins traded Johan Santana with cash to the Minnesota Twins for Jard Camp.
Jul 17, 1995: Signed as a non-drafted free agent by the Houston Astros in 1995.
MINNYSOTA-
You’re a typical Yankee Hater that comes on this blog. You hate the Yankees so much that you act like a Boston fan cuz you think it hurts us. All the while, your team is TERRIBLE!!!
But oh yeah, you’re team is good at “talent evaluation”. please.
I wish that was enough – you would have to work Kennedy in there as well..
chicago dave
ill be the first to say it.
the twins are not a small market team..
we are not a $180 miliion dollar payroll team either..
Why would i trade Johan?
hmm.. lets think about it.. he is the best pitcher in the game, we will not be resigning him.. we just lost hunter and got a draft pick for him..
so, am i a twins fan? yup..
and whats the best scenerio for the twins.
hmm.. im going to go with trade johan now, get a couple prospects for him..
trading him at the deadline doesnt get us a melky hughes,
and losing him at the end of the year gets up 2 draft picks.
and if any of you follow the twins drafts..
we take high school kids cuz we dont think we can afford the college kids
El Comaduce
That was a racist comment. You go to Japan and say that in a crowd…it was no joke
“look at you yankee fans..
like 3 or 4 of ya just blasting me”
Yep, and I haven’t heard a decent riposte from you yet. The truth hurts, I suppose, eh?
haha.
i dont hate the yankees
id rather the yanks get johan then the sox
cuz the yanks rotation sucks..
geez..
you yankee fans are fun to talk to..
all this drama!
i wonder if MINNYSOTA is really a met fan…
Minny, we are blasting you for the “some jap who wears sunglasses” comment. In case you don’t know, “jap” is very offensive word for those of Japanese descent. It was made popular during the Second World War to refer to the Japanese army. The world has a similar affect as the phrase “camel jockey” which was used to refer to the Iraqi army durin the First and Second Gulf War.
Just a little history lesson for you.
If the Red Sox are better than the Yankees, and to be honest, I’ll admit that they are damn good (last season), there really is no way of telling.
The Yankees made the mistake of building themselves for the purpose of beating the Red Sox last year. On the other hand, as a person mentioned on here, the injuries we dealt with the entire season prevented us from winning what might have been a landslide in the AL East.
I know, its all conjecture, but even so. Yes, the Sox won the World Series, yippeee for them. But top to bottom, they aren’t much, if at all, better.
Once the Yankees sort out their starting pitchers and bullpen, I have every reason to believe that they will be just as good, if not better than Boston.
Having said that, I tip my hat to the Red Sox, they pulled it out last year. That was last year, this is now. Old news.
a HWL that had top prospects for every major league team and scouts of all baseball pretty much said Action stoled the show out there. He is clearly now focused on baseball, his ceiling is higher than Ellsbury and his problem was that dreaded 2 sport thing, Tori Hunter went through it too. Austin is going to impress alot of people soon. Just watch..
Greg:
That is exactly what Hank is talking about. “Here’s your deadline. Take it or leave it.”
Matt:
There are always other teams hovering. The two chief combatants were brought out into the public arena via the “leaks”. There are always other teams. Always.
tomy gun
didnt you get punched out by rocky?
stfu
The Yankees are going to stick with their offer of Hughes and Cabrera, but the sticking point is the third prospect. I’m hearing the third person if the trade is made will be Betances. The Red Sox are preparing to offer Julio Lugo to their package.
Oh, and I forgot…Wasn’t someone bragging about the Twins’ awesome, unbeatable bullpen? Let’s see…That now makes it a former batting champion, a former MVP, the “best pitcher in baseball,” and the “best bullpen in baseball.” And still you guys can’t get traction. Wow, yeah…The Yanks really suck by comparison, right? I’m still laughing…
El Comaduce
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Guys take it easy on Minny – making a bad joke does not make you a racist…
——————————————————
Tell that to Michael Richards!
“Luckily for us, he (Hank) has gone back on his word before.” Really?
1) Hank offered a deal to Torre that Torre refused and Hank stood by his last and best offer. Torre is gone, Hank is still here.
2) Hank told A-Rod: “You opt out, we are done.” Rod opted out and they were done. It took Warren Buffet and a couple of other gazillionaire finance types to intercede and then A-Rod had to go without his agent, hat in hand, to Hank to personally apologize and ask for a second chance. Yeah A-Rod got big money, but he was going to be offered big money before he opted out too. (Allegedly, under his new deal A-Rod has given back the $21 mil he cost the Yankess by opting out).
Now Hank has told the Twins: “Don’t play me by taking my best offer to Boston. It’s take it or leave it time.” This “tough guy” act is in fact “good business.” All Hank did was do precisely the right thing at the right time.
Wait, now we have to give up Betances as well?! The highway robbery continues…
And in the meantime the Red Sox just keep adding crap to their offer. I bet J.D. Drew comes next. I pray that the Twins take the Sox package…They’ll never live it down.
East Side – this world is too politically correct.. I am an italian, and if he made a pizza twirling joke about Joe G i might laugh (if the joke was good)
I hate when people throw the term racist around so easy – KKK Racist….
Minnysota – told a joke in poor taste…
Tomy Gun:
He knows exactly what he is saying…you dont need to explain anything. He’s like all the other Yankee haters…here to start trouble and get us riled up…the only diference is he is also a racsist idiot
We should ignore him
Not him.
chicago dave
yea
we do have the Cy young, The MVP, the batting champ, and the best bullpen in baseball
in comparison you have The MVP (AROD) the CY YOUNGS, ( CLEMENS, Randy Johnson) Im sure youve had a batting champ, but if not, you had #2jeter and #3 cano when Mauer won it
and Rivera – The best closer in the Game, and the Best Post season closer in history..
whatcha got now DAVE?
Jake:
Beg to differ. The Yankees TRIED to build themselves to beat the Red Sox last year. They weren’t able to and got off to a horrible start, due mainly to horrible SP and horrible LH hitting. They never recovered, and the Red Sox were built for October with clearly superior SP.
The Yankees find themselves in the same spot this year, with essentially the same team, offensively. One that will score 950 runs, but may get shutout in a playoff game. That’s why they need to do this current trade for Santana if possible. They need an ace to matchup. Might they have one in the making (or two, or three, or four)? Sure, but this offensive roster is built for today.
Bobcat: They are preparing to offer Julio Lugo to the package? Why on Earth would the Twins want any part of that mistake of a contract??
Hey minny, it’s very nice of you to comment on your remark. I find that to be totally refreshing in today’s day. So anything else you like to get off you chest?
tomy gun
didnt you get punched out by rocky?
stfu
Definitely a met fan..
Not me.
Bobcat
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
The Yankees are going to stick with their offer of Hughes and Cabrera, but the sticking point is the third prospect. I’m hearing the third person if the trade is made will be Betances. The Red Sox are preparing to offer Julio Lugo to their package.
The smells like a fake.
Betances! I really hope its not Betances. We include Betances and the sox up the offer with Lugo?
How does that work. Betances? They put him on that new “untouchables” list.
Hughes and betances in one deal. Those are 2 of the 5 best prospects in the organizations. I know he’s very raw and far off. But I also know 6ft 9 and 95 mph+ can’t be taught.
wats the problem with Hank I love him hes the best he just like his father which is good he nows wat hes dion we dont
murphydog,
Couldn’t agree more.
Though I will say that Hank is maybe a bit too vocal with respect to Cashman.
I am not sure Cashman is running the whole show right now. If he was, I think he would have walked away already, knowing that the Yankees are getting played big time by Smith.
Tough decision though, walking away and basically letting the Red Sox have Santana. Is that the smartest move?
You tell me.
It is easy to spot a non bobcat comment
Rafael:
That was not me. When you see posts like that, it’s usually one of the guys from the NYYFans.com blog. They’ll be talking about how they posted impersonating me soon, if the pattern is the same as it has been the past week.
i wish the yanks would come to minnesota for a couple series
i love watching em play ball..
when else do you get to see all that talent and stardom on the field?
ya dont..
and i think for the yanks purposes.. you should enjoy having the twins come to town atleast 2 series a year..
you get to look at the talent we have, ( the ones we will not be able to afford) and usually you win 2 of 3 or 3 of 4
Here’s hoping we land Santana for Hughes, Melky, and anyone else besides Kennedy or Jackson.
grrrrrrrrrrr
minnysota – What do I “got”? Well, for one thing, it’s what do I “have”…and for another thing you’re a complete idiot. You’re still missing the point by a mile…and it’s not even a difficult point to grasp to begin with. I weep for the mothers and fathers of Minnesota.
El comaduce:
I respectfully disagree with you. I don’t think you have any Japanese friends…I do and that term is just as offensive as the “n” word.
If you enjoy having your Italian heritage trashed thats your business…although I have a feling if someone here using the G word…you would absoloutely lose it
Julio Lugo?….ICK!
AWESOME
We must get Santana.
Haren isn’t cheaper.
Dealing with Billy Beane is not a good choice.
Look at Stl?????HOE BAD IS IT???
I think if you breeze through the comments you’ll find that most of us were criticizing the racist nature of the comment/attempt at a joke and no minnysota him/herself.
The Red Sox including Lugo would be comparable to the Yankees included Damon. LOL.
chicago dave
i weep for you
cuz i agree the twins have alot of talent and have not won..
i agree i cannot rip the yanks for not winning cuz the twins have talent..
but can you honestly sit there and compare all the talent that has gone thru the yanks team to the 3 years that the twins have had these guys together?
Jake, I couldn’t agree more. There are 162 games to play and ANYTHING can and will happen.
I think over a season, the Yanks and Sox even out, but playoff series in another thing.
The Sox will decline this year. Becket you figure to be as good or better. Dice K you figure to get better, but not by a lot. I expect their offense to decline. Ortiz’s knees aren’t strong enough to hold up his neck anymore. Manny will be Manny, but there’s nobody else in that lineup that scares me. Not like ’04 when they all scared me.
I figure the Yanks offense to be better actually. Damon, Jeter, Abreu, ARod, Jorge, Matsui, Cano, 1B/DH, Melky. That’s Brutal. Trade Melky and so what? It opens the DH spot.
Wang you pencil in 17 wins minimum. THen it’s just too much of a crap shoot. Can we expect another 40 wins out of the threee kids? Moose I expect 10. The bullpen is a mess as always until Mo. You figure Horne does a Joba immitation at the end of the year. Maybe Olendorf gives us some value. Maybe someone like Sanchez gives us a lift too.
Minnysota is right, we need on SP to really like our chances in the postseason. But over the regular season I like our chances like always. I don’t know that Johan gives us ALDS immunity though. It could go either way.
Bobcat,
any update on the Sox offering Ellsbury and Lester and getting Neshek thrown in the deal?
Bobcat, if the yanks cannot get Santana, what is it going to cost to get a haren or even a bedard? Would the names that have been thrown around concerning Santana get it done for them?
Boston Dave:
Haven’t heard that one other than as a speculative offering in the media.
Bobcat-
Do you personally believe that the Yankees would be vastly overpaying with a package like Hughes, Melky and Kennedy?…I am just wondering what your opinion is…
Minnysota learn how to speak correct english first and then we may take you seriosly.
~Adam. Right on. (bravo)
Dice k is a Fraud
Schilling is a Fat old and just not that good anymore
Wakefield is Great one year average at best the next in 07 17-9 in 08 12-12
Josh Beckett well the Next time he puts 2 good injury free years together will be the first time
Clay the computer thief is overrated by the media becuase of all the real Yankee prospect but looks like a nice #3 or 4 starter until his inevitable arm problems come in august next year
Lester will continue to be healthy hopefully
Papelbon like Gagne before him will be exposed this year
Which is why Boston needs Johan more than we do.
Adam
Johan gives you 5+ innings night in night out..
the yanks dont need any pitching to get to the post season.. i agree with you there.. their ofense is tremendous
the yanks need pitching in the post season…
they need starters, they need a bullpen..
their rotation consisted of ?? ( i could be wrong)
clemens, pettite, maybe cone? wells?
when the yanks were winning.. those guys were solid
wang, mussina, igawa, not sure what else they got for starters.. but those guys do nothing in the post season..
pettie is even older..
“but can you honestly sit there and compare all the talent that has gone thru the yanks team to the 3 years that the twins have had these guys together?”
I wasn’t making a direct comparison. Then again, I give up trying to explain my original point…It’s like reading Shakespeare to a farm animal or tilting at windmills.
Good night, all!!! Hopefully Phil Hughes will still be in pinstripes tomorrow night.
james
name your rotation
and then bostons rotation
then tell everyone who needs johan more
Get off of the idea of Neshek…We would never jeopardize our bullpen like that, he is going to be a big part of the Minnesota Twins next year…There is NO CHANCE he is traded…
Tomy Gun:
My opinion (can’t give you names): Haren is going to be prohibitively expensive. Most teams will be in on him, as he’s financially very affordable. He would particularly appeal to teams like the Diamondbacks and Rockies, who have more to offer than the Yankees, Red Sox or anyone else, short of the LA teams.
minnysota,
why are you here dude? its kind of surprising how many twins fans have been on a yankees blog over the past few days but at least some of them had something to offer. you have nothing to offer but insults and attempts to defend the lowly twins. if the twins dont start spending on their team and keeping their guys, they dont deserve a team.
chicago dave
goodnight man
good talking to ya!
i dont hold grudges
its a blog
east side yankee,
I think people are cheapening racism… When i think of racism i think of deep hatred for a race. You can call me a Guinea, cracker, guido, dego – does not bother me….
i would need to know more about Minny before i label him a racist..
MINNYSOTA-
We all respect the Twins as a good team with talent. But the talent is nothing special. Tori Hunter was fun to watch and all, but what was great about him when he wasn’t running into walls. Mauer’s great, but what else is there?
MN sets the standard for the small market; how to tun an efficient, fundamentally sound team that could contend. I’ll give them that, but I don’t see anything grand about them.
And before you get pissed off that we’re ragging on MN, realize you’re on a Yankees blog.
Since when is Bobcat the All Knowing Entity. I appreciate his contributions as I do most of the folks on the blog. But really, people, his last post contained zero info. He’s like the rest of os– no better, no wprse. Just pretends to be more. Stop making him someone he is not. Get over it.
Matt:
If it were me, I would walk away if it took Hughes, Melky and Kennedy.
Boston Dave
im here for the same reason yankee fans are all over the twins blog..
to talk baseball
cept any comment i make is criticized
you want to talk baseball.. lets talk..
im not defending my team any more then the yankee fans defend their team
i know we dont spend money.. heck, the last couple years we needed one big trade that would perhaps make a difference.. we never make the trade
MAtt,
I think that is probably fair for Santana except that the Sox won’t offer both Buchholz and Ellsbury so the Yanks wont need to offer both. I dont know what Bobcat thinks but I’d say zero chance.
that’s “us” and “worse”. not a very good typist.
Reality Check, I would much rather your nonsense.
Bobcat-
What do you think it would take to get Haren?
Adam
your absolutely correct
there is nothing grand about minnesota
earlier in a post i said that the yanks are doing a good job at building up their farm system..
thats something the twins have always done..
and its a damn good thing to be doing..
Bobcat, thanks I assumed that about Haren. But if not Santana, then where else do you think they look to get a quality starting pitcher to help out the kids?
If you are gunna have to put horne / betances/ action jackson or tabata in the deal i say no thanks ….. if you add in those players you might be able to go and get Kazmir (who id rather have to santana anyway)
Good to know Bobcat wasn’t pushing player #3 as Betances. Cash gave them a list to choose #3 from.
Bobcat,
What are the chances that the Yankees take Hughes/Melky off the table tomorrow night and Johan plays out 2008 in Minnesota?
so Stephon Marbury throwing chairs after tonight’s game might take back page for tomorrow’s news
Bobcat-
Sorry, I just noticed you already answered that question.
All I keep thinking about, was that old time scout who told me during a Connie Mack summer game back in 2003, that in forty years of scouting that Phil Hughes was one the best 5 RH pitchers he ever scouted …..But this now and not 3 years from now…..Cashman and the Yanks do not have the luxury of time unfortunely…..They are likely the only team in MLB that would trade such a great young talent…..Dman I hate to see him leave….I’m being repetitive, but I just want to be on the record…..Phil Hughes will be a major big league Star pitcher…..
hahaha Rob NY,
when you said:
If you are gunna
i thought i read If your a guinea…
i need glasses…
Buddy:
I believe the cost for Haren would be Hughes+ a prospect with a high upside. I don’t think the Yankees will make that deal.
minnysota…shouldn’t you throw an extra ‘o’ in your name?
Bobcat:
I thought u said Santana was using his ntc and only wanted to go to one team. It would seem that he will go to any contender willing to pay his price
Boston Dave-
If you would have said that a while ago, we prolly wouldn’t have had any problems before…
Bobcat-
would cano + Horne + Tabata have gotten it done?
Yanks keep cabrera and hughes, wait for jackson to develop, sign lorretta? What is wrong with that?
Twins get 3B, Pitcher + high ceiling CF prospect.
Five years from now – on this blog – we are all going to sitting around coming up with trade proposals for how we can get phil hughes back in a trade from minnesota because he’s getting too expensive for them.
Write it down.
rodg12
no, cuz the twins offense has no O. haha
so i use as few as possible!
Does anyone here have much knowledge of the Sox farm system? Are the current players they are offering such as Jed Lowrie or Masterson highly regarded?
Boston needs him more
Joba
Hughes
Pettite
IPK
Wang- as a punishment for his Post season he goes last
Joba Hughes and IPK all coming along at the same happened before in Oakland with Mulder Hudson and Zito. They should have won Championships but their Bullpen was terrible and the Offense was at best good not Great. Joba Hughes and IPK will all be better too because of the magic fairy dust Yogi keeps in his front shirt pocket on Wednesdays so if you ever meet Yogi on a Wednesday ask him for a dusting, I did and made out with Jessica Alba and won the Lottery.
Not me.
Bobcat
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Buddy:
I believe the cost for Haren would be Hughes+ a prospect with a high upside. I don’t think the Yankees will make that deal.
Bobcat,
I’ll have to politely disagree.
Again, its all conjectures, but had the Yankees faced the Red Sox in the ALCS, it would have been a whole different ballgame.
We had their number in the season series, we hit Dice-K, Beckett, and Schilling effectively each time we faced them.
Playoff baseball is different, I know. Going in to the playoffs, people would have chosen Boston and that was obviously a great pick. But Boston matched up far better against Anaheim (depleted offense, mediocre pitching) and Cleveland (mediocre pitching past Carmona).
Again, all conjectures, and what might have been.
I’m over it. Truth be told, Boston’s championship this year was boring and not nearly as historical and incredible as 2004. Not to undermine their accomplishment, but from a Yankees fan perspective, it didn’t hurt nearly as much.
“The Yankees TRIED to build themselves to beat the Red Sox last year. ”
the yankees were asleep at the wheel going into 2007. someone high up added added the imexperienced marty miller to single handedly destroy hamstrings. throw away positions were created at firstbase and back up catcher. there was no bench at the beginning of the year. the bullpen stunk. they added a 50 million dollar pitcher and the pitching coach didn’t even know he hadn’t picked up a ball all winter until his first pitch of spring training almost killed a reporter standing about twenty feet off to the side.
that was TRYING?
Bobcat-
How steadfast is Boston in not offering Lester and Ellsbury together…is it a sure thing not to happen? or is is a possibility…
Pat M.,
Did that scout mention who the other 4 RH prospects were?
CB I think I’ll be hanging out with a better class of bloggers in 5 years
Stefan Weaver @ 9:00 PM: Damn straight I’m a Yankee fan. That’s why I don’t buy this Santana nonsense for a second.
Now that I think about it, there are other ways that won’t sink the team’s original plans AND will help us in August when the kids’ innings counts reach uncharted territory. I’d be laughed out of here by the “Santana! Haren! Nathan! Trade Everyone!” crowd, I bet, if I brought them up.
So….even if the Twins say yes, he might want some “opt-out” clauses? Glorious. Just friggin glorious.
minny….just so you know I was joshing you about the way Minnesotans pronounce Minnesota like Minnysoo0ta, not knocking the Twins O, but that’s not a bad angle to take though.
OK, let me get this straight.
The Red Sox were not all that happy with Lugo and Crisp this past season. Crisp was moved out by a late call up. And the great deal that the Sox are putting together is Crisp and Lugo and Lester (who they looked like they wanted to get rid of earlier if they could.) Tell me, if I am a GM and see them looking to unload the players that they and the fans were down on, why I should take them up on it?
Lester is a year removed from cancer that can come back. Lugo was pretty poor offensively last season, Crisp another who hit poorly. Though they are offering Ellsbury in his place, a just called up player who really has had very little exposure.
I don’t get it. To me the Sox are just looking to unload a lot of their “junk”. Granted, they aren’t bad players, but they aren’t the premium players either.
Melky isn’t a great player, but he is a switch hitter who at least will hit for average. He was in a number of different batting positions, including leadoff, and was great with assists. And he is young. Hughes is going to show his true form. Betances is a high ceiling player. The sox are offering quantity, but there is a bit of question on the quality in my eyes.
rodg12
yea .. i gotcha
and yea.. we still got no O
damn adrian peterson should play baseball
Bobcat imposter What a simpleton, why don’t you go ring door bells somewhere.
Rafael,
Lowrie had a great year and his “value” prob compares to Tabata and Austin Jackson. I dont know as much as Masterson but I believe he may equate to a Humberto Sanchez.
Reality Check:
I think you are right on..
Man, that guy is just sick!! SOOOOOO happy to have him on my money-league fantasy team!!
ThatwasMe,
Your post just made me laugh out loud. that is pretty rad: “Go ring doorbells somewhere.”
hahaha
I didn’t want to give up Cano, but as the days go by I’m getting less attached to him. I know Cano’s not going anywhere, but IF it was a choice between Hughes and Cano which would you guys let go?
MAtt,
I cant see that happening. The Sox see Ellsbury as close to Hughes and Lester as comparable to Kennedy. I am sure if they do offer both… the Yanks will be in trouble (if they want Santana).
cano
Buddy & Tomy:
The thing to remember about the A’s is that they:
1) can field a team this year
2) have an absolutely wretched farm system
3) would be more interested in restocking their farm system
So, I’ll ask you: if you were Billy Beane, who would YOU want from the Yankees?
Jake:
No problem. For what it’s worth, I didn’t watch a single pitch of a Red Sox playoff game. Have to admit it.
East Side:
Things change. BTW, you don’t think much of my opinion, so why ask, other than to prove me wrong? I’ve said all along, I don’t profess to be an expert. I just happen to know a few things. Believe my posts or not, doesn’t matter to me.
Matt:
Sorry, I really can’t go there. Those negotiations are ongoing. Hope you understand.
I’m not sure if this was posted already but:
Sources told FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal that Johan Santana has informed the Twins he will not waive his no-trade protection to allow an in-season trade.
mel – Hughes. It’s really not that close for me. Cano has proven himself to be the best 2B in the AL over two full seasons with the Yanks. Hughes hasn’t proven anything yet. It’s that simple.
Bobcat,
Do you think that Hank opening his mouth was a wise move?
I think the two things he could have said and in once sentence would be: “I really want Santana on our team and you can tell him that, but I will not let this ballclub be played by Bill Smith’s subordination.”
Mike in Boston:
Cano was never on the table, so I don’t know that.
Lowrie is a good prospect. Had a strong year at AAA and he’s close to major league ready. Big plus for the twins.
Masterson pitched in AA. Groundball pitcher. Doesn’t throw hard. Had a decent season. Gets a lot of ground balls.
Unless Ellsbury and Lester are in the deal IMO the sox offer doesn’t match up at all. You can’t trade Santana without getting the best pitching prospect you are offerred back.
But who knows what minnesota is thinking.
Bobcat,
Do the Yanks have any shot at Bedard if Santana falls through?
mel i would trade robbie cano
dontcha know
Mel
I think that I’d trade Cano. Pitching and defense wins in baseball. I love robbie but his offense can be replaced somewhere in the lineup and his defense sometimes scares me sometimes wows me. So I think that its easier to replace cano and melky than it would be to replace hughes even though I know the yankees system is loaded with pitchers.
Jake:
I don’t think it’s a bad thing. The Yankees are always asked to pony up more than other teams, and sometimes teams reach a point where they have to push back. Hank’s pretty good at pushing back.
Bobcat,
do you actually believe Hank and the Yanks deadline? I think the Twins have the upper hand in these negotiations and the Yanks, unfortunately, have to play by their rules (to an extent) and if the deadline passes, the Yanks will still be in play.
If you ignore position and production, on an emotional level would you want Hughes or Cano?
CB: I’d believe. Hell, I’d believe it in less than that.
“Tough decision though, walking away and basically letting the Red Sox have Santana. Is that the smartest move?”
Jake:
I think Boston will blink at the last moment in view of the extraordinary cost in prospects and cash, because they just don’t need Santana as much as the Yankees need him.
The Sox, with Beckett already atop the rotation, can afford to wait and let Buckholz mature during the year. Why not hunt a closer at the Winter meetings instead (Nathan?) so they can move Papelbon into the rotation. Beckett, Papelbon, Dice-K, Buckholz and maybe Lester? Can they really justify the cost of Santana with that rotation? The Baseball Gods will be very angry if they do. It’s the Deadly Sin of Gluttony.
It’s one thing for Boston to bluff up the price on the Yankees but it’s quite another to have that bluff called and spend all that talent and cash just to keep a player away from the Yanks. That’s abandoning your business plan and priorities just to screw up your rival and that’s terrible business. So when it comes to Boston and Santana, they must be careful what they wish for, they just might get it.
rodg12:
My opinion: I don’t think the O’s will trade Bedard w/in their division. I think they would get more from the Dodgers anyway.
A question to the board and the bobcat…. Could a similar deal to the one the yankees are offering for Santana work to net the Yanks Kazmir from the rays? Something like maybe Hughes/ horne/ another pitcher like a JB Cox or Whelan …. (they obviously would have no use for melky) or is the rays recent trading evidence that Kazmir isnt really available?
Mel: Would you rather have someone shoot your right or left eye out? I’d like to keep both my eyes, and both my players.
Bobcat: I could imagine Beane demanding a bit more quantity on the A-AA level, but perhaps not a major league talent on the level of Phil Hughes. The question to me isn’t what Beane would ask, but what really is a fair deal for a pitcher like Haren. I could see that very quickly getting out of hand.
That fake Bobcat post about including Betances as the 3rd prospect really pissed me off. I’m so glad its not true
mel- “If you ignore position and production”….what’s the point of doing that?? But still, I’m more attached to Cano cuz I’ve seen him really succeed for the Yanks. Same way I hated seeing Soriano go. Man, I still miss that guy (although I totally agreed with the trade.
Want a winning proposition?
Have a 3rd team get Santana for prospects, then Sox, Yankees and Twins win.. This is getting a little unhealthy for eveyone involved (except the twins)
Bobcat-
I absolutely understand that you can not say everything, but I figured it would be worth a try to ask…I think the only thing that Hank’s speaking did was to push the Red Sox hand…Yankees are clearly in the lead, now Red Sox have to reply…
Bobcat,
If am Billy Beane, I would want everyone
I know that Haren is probably not a smart option. I would start at Hughes and Kennedy and then take my pick of 1-3 high level prospects.
But apart from him or Bedard, there is nothing else obtainable. So I guess it’s Johan or else we pray the “children can lead us!”
CB….He only said that Tom Seaver was the best young RH he had ever seen….Remember he was a West Coast Scout….Not bad company to be compared to…..
Bobcat:
I have no problems with opinions…the problem is (and it may not be your fault) is how you are being positioned as an all knowing entity.
Its like the chess players waiting for Bobby Fisher to showup in the park and play a game.
Maybe it is our need for answers in a chaotic world.
I always welcome your opinions
Update from the Globe:
NASHVILLE – Here’s what we’ve learned in the first few hours here at the winter meetings: According to major league sources, none of Boston’s young prospects are untouchable in talks with the Twins for Johan Santana.
But there’s a major “but…”.
If Jacoby Ellsbury is included in the package, the rest of the package won’t include Jon Lester or Clay Buchholz. In other words, the Red Sox are taking a very systematic approach to this. They’re telling the Twins, you can have one of these guys, but the rest of the package won’t include our three best prospects. The rest of the package will be something less than the Twins desire.
The Twins wanted to hear the Yankees say OK on Phillip Hughes and apparenly they have heard that. But the Yankees, according to sources, are taking a similar approach to Boston: Take Hughes and maybe Melky Cabrera, but don’t expect much after that.
What’s the end game? If the Red Sox succeed in raising the price for the Yankess to acquire Santana they’d enjoy that. If they land Santana, they’ll enjoy that, too. If neither the Red Sox or Yankees land Santana either because they can’t agree to players or they can’t agree to a deal for the lefty free-agent-to-be after the 2008 season, that’s even better. In that scenario Santana stays with Minnesota for the time being or he’s shopped out of the AL East.
SI. com reported tonight that the Yankees have a Monday deadline on a deal for Santana. Brian Cashman doesn’t get here until Monday. According to major league sources, the Red Sox have given the Twins no deadline on their end, so they’re willing to wait it out.
murphydog,
i think the Sox are real players and not just bluffing here. If think that’s the case ONLY because its Santana. This wouldnt be happening with Haren or anyone else. I dont think they NEED him, but they know how dominant they can be if they do get him.
the days of true aces hitting free agency are a thing of the past. you have to give alot to get one from another team.
Boston Dave:
I believe the Yankees will stick to their deadline because they are right in that their offer is the best one, and it’s common knowledge that the Yankees can get a deal done with Santana. That’s not a given elsewhere.
I don’t believe the Twins have an insurmountable amount of leverage. Some, but what they have to trade (the opportunity to negotiate exclusively with Santana) is only worth so much. It’s at that point.
murphydog,
Great point. The baseball gods will be angry. I think the baseball gods got angry at Yankees fans when they clicked the “Yes” option under an ESPN poll that asked “If there is a God, are they a Yankees fan?”
I wish I could go back and push “No.”
Bobcat,
How did you get to be so cool? You are giving us some flava while Pete is on his vacation. I have no idea if anything you say is legit, but at least it makes for interesting conversation.
mel,
Very reluctantly, I think you have to trade Hughes. Cano plays a premium defensive postion and second basemen who can both hit and field are so rare.
Also, Cano has had significant success already at the major leagues.
Then perhaps the biggest thing is organizational depth. The yankees strength in the minors is overwhelmingly oriented around right handed pitching – the position players lag, especially those at AA/AAA.
There are ways for them to fill in from within for Hughes. They can’t “replace” him because there are no other prospects who are health on his level in the organization (not counting joba of course).
There is no easy way to replace cano. And I do think he’s going to win batting titles in the future.
Mitchell,
If I had to choose I would shoot my right eye. It’s twice as bad as the left. But, like you, I’d rather keep both, as flawed as they are.
I hate to say it but the Yanks really need Santana if they want to contend for a title in the next 2 years… so i hope they get him for hughes, cabrera, prospect whether the twins pass the deadline or not.
Mitchell’s Eleven:
I think you’re correct: Beane would want/needs quantity. The Twins need quality in addition as they have more immediate holes.
Rob:
The Rays won’t trade with the Yankees.
Bobcat,
What would you say the chances are that the Twins agree to the Yankees offer by the deadline?
Jake:
Please. I’m not cool. Pete’s given us a great venue. We’re just sharing what we think and sometimes know.
Bobcat-
Ok, If I were Billy Beane, I would want Kennedy, Jackson or Tabata, Horne & Sanchez.
Too much? Not Enough?
Again, if Boston winds up getting Santana, they will dump a ton of money in to his contract and they just can’t do that as easily as the Yankees. Plus, their luxury tax will skyrocket in 2009.
If the Yankees put the best offer out there and it isn’t taken, so be it, Minnesota’s loss.
This crap has been drawn out far too much now. Its just ridiculous.
Bill Smith is going to taint his relationship with the Yankees right out of the gates. I am not sure if that has any serious repercussions or not, but if so, way to make a splash in your first season.
Greg:
Can’t say, don’t know. They’ve pushed the envelope about as far as they can with the Yankees. And the Red Sox are shuffling the lists, just like the Yankees did. The difference is key, though:
The Yankees best prospect in the trade is better than the Red Sox, and the Yankees’ trade fills two holes, while the Red Sox fills one.
In addition Jake, how does Smith go back to his fan base and accept a lesser offer for Santana than what the Yanks were willing to give.
Bobcat,
Do you think that trading for Santana would boost Pettitte’s interest in returning or is it insignificant to him?
If Santana falls through, what do you think the Yankees will do, if anything? Who is the best pitcher that they won’t get raked over the coals for?
And Papelbon is not going to start. He’s going to remain a closer. And most importantly, he WANTS to close. He has no interest in starting.
“Hank’s pretty good at pushing back.”
if the yankees pull out of the negotiations for santana, how does that help the yankee cause of making the red sox pay the highest price possible if they get santana?
if hank doesn’t have the patience it takes to make this kind of deal, he should get out of the way and let cashman handle it. deadlines don’t work when people have other choices.
Pat M.,
Tom Seaver…? That both great and awful. This trade is going to be very painful.
I asked this before on another thread. Did you happen to see Chatsworth play last year? If so how good is Moustakas? Can he play short long term? Impressions on Dominguez?
“Can they really justify the cost of Santana with that rotation? The Baseball Gods will be very angry if they do. It’s the Deadly Sin of Gluttony.”
I sincerely ask, can a Yankee fan write the above sentence with a straight face?? The Red Sox have learned from the Yankees….the more good players you have the better and don’t worry so much about the money.
Buddy:
If I were Beane, that’s not a bad start, but I’d take another position guy at a lowere level, and maybe try to get a total of five.
Bobcat,
Do the Twins clearly see Hughes are more valuable to them (and in any potential deal) than Ellsbury?
Rodg,
Great point.
randy, that was my thinking as well
Oh my god.
Boston get Santana is the worst situation to us.
LOL
Bobcat,
What are the chances of the Yankees taking this deal of the table tomorrow night and not getting back into the fold with Hughes as the centerpiece. And what is the chance of Satan (Yes I call him Satan, it is not a typo) actually returning to Minnesota for 2008.
I don’t think the Twins buy Santana vetoing a trade in July. Ken Rosenthal is always full of bull*&#@. If your Santana its July and your in last place and if hes still a Twin he will be and are dealt to a sure playoff team your going to veto it exactly why. Id like to see a head on collision with Rosenthal in one car and Mike Lupica in the other. Id buy the PPV.
Jake:
Some think they would get raked over the coals on this trade. If the Santana trade doesn’t happen, I think they will move on to Haren. There are others out there, but I can’t really go there until they get “leaked”.
I think the Yankees certainly hope that the Santana trade brings Pettitte back for one more shot at a ring.
I also think the Yankees are prepared to go with the kiddie corps going forward and try to out-muscle their way into the playoffs in the hope that by the time they are not rookies anymore, they can compete. Not the best plan, but a plan.
Bobcat
Do you know who the Twins value more, Hughes or Buccholz? I’m not sure if you’re allowed to answer that, but thanks.
Bobcat,
Wow, 5 players of that quality plus whatever they get for Street & Harden, I wouldn’t be surprised if Beane makes back to back to back deals with those 3 all this week. He will absolutely reload with some excellent players.
Bobcat,
Just curious,but has there been any rumblings concerning Giambi or Matsui being moved and if so which is more likely to be retained by the Yankees?
james, if the twins still have santana they wont be in last place in july…. but the twins cant really call santanas bluff. they need to deal him now.
Bobcat, are you amazed that all the idiots here swallow your tripe as if you really have inside knowledge ? I am. Even though you offer the vaguest of statements they have so far proven to be wrong. Why these simpletons hang on your every word is beyond me but I’m sure you are enjoying it.
Ty,
MAtsui is going nowhere, nor should he. Giambi either. Why would they trade him for nothing and pay his contract?
Buddy:
That offer for Haren scares me less than what we’re offering for Santana. I think the presence of players we haven’t actually seen play at the MLB level is the difference for me, as well as the constant playing down of Kennedy (which I don’t buy) by those “in the know.”
I’d like to think, also, that Andy’s decision has little to do with who is on the team, or his chances of winning. I also would like to think I’m not being completely naive there.
Randy:
I understand what you’re saying, but Hank and the Steinbrenners do things their own way. It’s their judgment that this is a time to push back.
Sean,
I think the Yankees are comfortable going forward with the young guys. Personally, I think that Santana gives them the best chance to win a WS; not the only chance, just the best chance. It’s very easy to envision Joba, Hughes and IPK being VERY successful. The unknown is WHEN? That’s the difference between keeping Hughes and getting Santana.
Bobcat,
What are the chances of the Yankees taking this deal of the table tomorrow night and not getting back into the fold with Hughes as the centerpiece. And what is the chance of Satan (Yes I call him Satan, it is not a typo, lol) actually returning to Minnesota for 2008.
Bobcat–
Are we at least going to have an answer before the end of the week?
(thank you for all the info you’ve given us so far, it’s great!)
Who are the Twins with or with out Johan better than in the central?
Ken Clay,
the people here enjoy Bobcats posts. If they all turn out to be wrong, in time, maybe people wont value them as much. either way, who aer you to make a statement like that? if you dont like them, dont read them.
No matter who or what Bobcat is, his logic is sound, and he makes for a lot of fun here. I’m glad you’re here.
Let’s not forget, though, that it’s perfectly fine to not “think like a GM” all the time and think like a fan.
james,
the twins could be the best team in the central if liriano is healthy and they keep santana and nathan. they will certainly contend.
Big-Time:
Can’t really speak to that. Most teams would take either.
B.D.:
The Sox have won 2 WS in four years. How much more dominance can they really expect from acquiring Santana? I believe that good teams and good businesses are rational and act on need, not “need plus.”
If Boston can get a closer instead of Santana thereby freeing up Papelbon to the rotation, they would have Beckett, Papelbon, Dice-K, Buckholz, Lester and Wakefield with which to make a rotation. They could put Lester or Buckholz in the bullpen.
I know closers are in short supply, but getting closer is the more rational move and a move that costs far less than Santana yet still improves the rotation. Why not make a run at Houston Street? Joe Nathan? How hard would it be for Theo to switch gears from talking about Santana with GM Smith to talking about Nathan? Ditto with Bean, switching from Haren to Street?
It’s irrational for Boston to commit the resources to get Santana when they have the ability to put up a rotation like this one above if they make a different, less costly move. The Yankees have no such option; going with three rookies behind Wang as No. 1 in a rotation just isn’t even close IMO.
Bobcat,
What do you see the odds of, if Santana falls through, addressing the need for a veteran starter through a workhorse-type free agent who could especially help down the stretch?
Bobcat, can you at least say that the Twins value Hughes more than Ellsbury (which would essentially say that the Yanks have the upper hand unless the sox sweeten their deal) ?
Ken Clay also stole his mensa card.
I understand that the Yanks want an answer but the Twins have every right to look around and find out which offer is the best for them. Hank shouldn’t forget that the Twins are the ones with the best pitcher and it is not like it is Feb or something!!! Dec. just started and the winter meetings didn’t even start yet. Look at the Angels they have been trying to deal with the Marlins for over a month now and haven’t gotten anywhere. If the Yanks were trading an ace pitcher they would take there precious time to make sure they made the right deal. Yanks should of made the deadline on Thurs. when the meetings end. BUT if what Hank said is right he doesn’t think the Yanks got anywhere from changing Kennedy to Hughes in the deal and if the 3rd player isn’t a problem or being talked about then there offer is basically sitting on the table with no response while the Twins talk to Boston.
Rebecca:
I think you’re going to see a lot of activity from a lot of teams this week. Including a resolution to the Santana issue.
And it’s not me; there are a lot of wonderful posters on this blog.
Just a heads up to whoever posted the comment about Marbury throwing the chair after the game tonight….it might have been because he found out his father passed away during the game (wasn’t at the garden).
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....ther.0116/
If the Twins are determined to get Ellsbury or Hughes they need to do the deal now. Once the season starts the Red Sox will have dealt crisp and wont have a CF replacement and all the pitchers we’ve been discussing will have changed our opinion of them , for better or worse.
Mitchell’s Eleven:
There isn’t much out there.
Boston Dave:
The “upper hand” doesn’t result from one player or the other. Both teams are offering multiple players. That’s a quandry for the Twins.
Bobcat,
What is going on in Florida with this Cabrera deal with the angels?
Kendrick/ Mathis/ Adenhart vs. Santana/ “mid-level” prospect and they turned it down?
Does Florida have a real sense of what they want or are they just exploring and don’t really care how angry they get Moreno? Are they really stuck on getting both pitchers?
Are the angels so fed up they are getting out?
Mitchell’s-
Haren just turned 27, if Hughes & Melky stay, you give up the guys I mentioned plus one more, I think you gotta make that deal. I really think Haren can be the ace the Yanks need, he may not be there just yet. Plus his contract is incredible.
08:$4M, 09:$5.5M, 10:$6.75M club option ($0.25M buyout) (option becomes guaranteed if Haren reaches specific IP mark)
Bobcat – It’s good to have you back in action. I’m happy you’re posting again. My wife on the other hand…not so much.
Oh I forgot Liarano walks on water. The Twins stink on ice
rodg12, it was me and seriously I wish Steph the best it doesn’t change how I feel about him the Knicks or Isiah , I’m no flip flopper, w/ that said RIP Mr. Don Marbury it’s sad losing a dad
Bobcat,
Melky would be the best of the “second players” in the deal at this point, no?
Hughes, Melky, prospect (who I personally think is Horne) vs. Ellsbury, Lowrie, prospect
really hope it isnt Horne. he looked good last year and then following his numbers….. hes a nice young pitcher and i couldnt stomach losing hughes AND horne…
Everyone,
HOW GREAT OF FANS ARE WE THAT WE ‘PRY’ OURSELVES AWAY FROM OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO READ THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF CONJECTURES?
GOD I LOVE YANKEE FANS!
either horne or AJ… just my opinion but i think the yanks did not want to offer either… then they did and gave the twins the deadline… knowing that this was the best deal they were going to offer
hughes, melky, horne or AJ
i don’t get the bobcat bashers…
you jump on his posts and call him a fake or irrelevant yet you don’t get your angry pudgy typing fingers going on the idiotic CANO trade proposals posted that would make your xbox 360 mlb 2k8 explode with exasperation.
as i said b4
The only moving cano is doing this winter is his ass in reggaeton videos and Bill Smith’s strobelight mango lapdance wet dreams…enough is enough
Carry on Sir RobertFeline, i love yer comments.
butch, htere are only a couple bobcat bashers. most enjoy his posts. and they are pretty much just opinions anyway. if we choose to respect and consider them more than others, thats fine. they are informed opinions and we can use as many of those as possible.
I’m glad the Yankees set a deadline and I hope they stick to it.
We’re doing the Twins a favor here. They’re getting one of the best youngest SP prospects in the game and a helluva CF who has a lot of room to grow and as we know is a great clubhouse presence.
They are getting 2 guys of great character at the major league level with loads of potential who can help right now and if that’s not enough to bail them out of their self imposed BS reasons for not paying their own star players, they can stuff it.
I always said the Yankees should control this negotiation since I still think they are the only team that has both the willingness to deal the talent and willingness to spend the money on Johan.
We’ve done our end of the bargain. If the Twins don’t agree to this deal by tomorrow, it’s time to move on and see what Haren, Oswalt, etc. might cost.
If Johan gets traded to Boston and he signs with them, I’ll be stunned, but if it happens, so be it.
We still have the chips to get pitchers and develop our own.
It’s up to the Twins, indeed.
New Pete post….
CB…I did see Matt play in the AREA CODE Games 2 years ago in Long Beach…..I only saw him that one time….I live in Orange County Ca., Newport Becah to be exact…Now I have Austin Romine play many times and he’s a good ballplayer…I do not see him as a catcher, maybe a 3rd baseman….Real good stick and a great arm with a quick delivery…Undersized for a catcher…..
Pat M,
Appreciated. S. Cal has so much talent. Good to hear from a veteran observer.
This would be a far WORSE trade than if the Yankees sent this same package for Santana. Kazmir has some kind of arm issues every year and he’s clearly not in Santana’s class.
Secondly, Tampa is not trading Kazmir to the Yankees. He’s young, cheap, and good.
Buddy: If is Haren doesn’t turn out to be the ace, he’d help hold down the fort while Joba and Hughes get their endurance issues and experience down and grow towards becoming that ace themselves. That’s why it’s more sensible to go for Haren if we can keep Hughes and become slightly thinner in the A-AA prospect area.
Bobcat,
Can you pleae at least tell us a couple names who could be the third player if the twins agree to a yankees deal?
mel
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
I didn’t want to give up Cano, but as the days go by I’m getting less attached to him. I know Cano’s not going anywhere, but IF it was a choice between Hughes and Cano which would you guys let go?
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A pitcher like Hughes, especially with what’s coming up in the syste, can be replaced….not easily, but, he can. A 2nd baseman with the combination of offense, defense and youth, is hard to find in any 15-20 year stetch. Right now, there’s two of those..Utley and Cano. Hughes can be exceptional…Cano is. Verlander, even Bailey, Chamberlain, can be found…whether they stay health, keep improving…who knows. Verlander has, Bailry hasn’t. Cano has all by age 24. I’ll keep Cano.
Boston Dave
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
either horne or AJ… just my opinion but i think the yanks did not want to offer either… then they did and gave the twins the deadline… knowing that this was the best deal they were going to offer
hughes, melky, horne or AJ
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I think the third player will be Betemit. He can fill another slot for the Twins. less than three years service time, young and less than 500,000 dollars