Steinbrenner: The clock is ticking
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 02, 2007 
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Hank Steinbrenner has spoken: Take it or leave it.
I just arrived in Nashville and received word that the Yankees have informed the Twins that they have until sometime today to accept or decline their offer for Johan Santana.
The offer is this: Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a third player. That third player would not be Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne.
“I won’t get played,†Steinbrenner said by telephone from Tampa. “We made a strong offer.â€
Brian Cashman has not yet returned a message. But Steinbrenner is (again) talking to everybody and clearly is driving this decision. He readily admits to wanting Santana and confirmed that the Yanks would give up Hughes and Cabrera to get the lefty.
“I think we have made the best offer,†Steinbrenner said. “But there is not going to be a lot of back-and-forth on this. They have to decide what they want to do.â€
The Yankees and Steinbrenner issued an ultimatum to A-Rod in October that they would never sign him if he opted out. He did and they relented. But Hammerin’ Hank seems determined not get into a tug of war with Boston on this.
The Red Sox have so far offered Minnesota a package built around either Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury – not both.
And I always thought that Tabata was the better prospect.
Ahh the fresh smell of a new post
Out of curiosity, what would be a fair package for Nathan? Would it be IPK and Melky?
I’m glad the Yankees set a deadline and I hope they stick to it.
We’re doing the Twins a favor here. They’re getting one of the best youngest SP prospects in the game and a helluva CF who has a lot of room to grow and as we know is a great clubhouse presence.
They are getting 2 guys of great character at the major league level with loads of potential who can help right now and if that’s not enough to bail them out of their self imposed BS reasons for not paying their own star players, they can stuff it.
I always said the Yankees should control this negotiation since I still think they are the only team that has both the willingness to deal the talent and willingness to spend the money on Johan.
We’ve done our end of the bargain. If the Twins don’t agree to this deal by tomorrow, it’s time to move on and see what Haren, Oswalt, etc. might cost.
If Johan gets traded to Boston and he signs with them, I’ll be stunned, but if it happens, so be it.
We still have the chips to get pitchers and develop our own.
It’s up to the Twins, indeed.
You would have to give up one of the pitchers to get Nathan, but be careful what you wish for. Guaranteed, you only get Nathan one year. Even if he wants to set up this year for the Yanks, he will be gone at the end of the season.
Tomorrow’s either going to be the best day of the off-season, or the worst.
Oh man.
And I have to go to class (!!!!!)
Shocking that Steinbrenner is driving the bus on this and Cashman is keeping quiet.
Any 2nd thoughts as to what the ‘baseball’ people want to do?
Hankees is a tool…he is already getting played and he can’t even realize it.
Welcome back from vacation, Pete. And not a moment too soon.
So weird. I want Johan but wouldn’t give up Hughes. Don’t wanna lose Melkey either. I remember when the Yankees got Clemens for David burb Wells Graham Lloyd(they never did replace him) and Homer Bush (best baseball name ever) and I felt awful about it. It took me like 4 days (cuz I’m kinda dumb but also kinda hot) to figure it out. I loved Wells and didn’t wanna lose him but I knew we were better with Clemens. This is different Hughes isn’t a Fat old Drunk and Johan isn’t gonna do steroids to fight off Father Time. We will regret this if it happens.
Hey Pete-
Any Cashman sightings?
Feel the exact same way James.
How many more wins do we get from Santana than Hughes? Some people are willing to throw Wang in as part of a deal to get an older pitcher with the same number of wins – I don’t get it. Minnesota may end up holding on to Santana now and trading him after the All Star break to a contender.
Santana is arguably the best pitcher in the game – but he has been for severasl years now – remember when we signed Pavano he was supposed to be the same pitcher as Beckett. The lesson is you can’t judge a guy even based on what he’s done in the past. Let’s stick with the plan and perhaps go after a guy on the come instead of a guy about to cash in and go down hill at the same time.
Pete,
Are you sure its not Horne or AJ as the third prospect?
Getting the best pitcher in baseball for Phil Hughes is getting played? I’d like to get played all day if I’m the Yankees.
Secondly, what makes you think the baseball people are not behind Hank’s issuing a statement?
But agree with Bobcat and the need for Santana to compete with Boston.
Alright, I’m out for tonight. Got that stupid thing called ‘work’ tomorrow…lame, I know. I’ll check in tomorrow….hopefully to see Santana as a Yank!
“We will regret this if it happens.”
Or we will be enjoyhing a ticker tape parade in 2008 if it happens. Could go either way.
Thanks Bobcat, night all.
I thought Dellin, and Tabta were also untouchable as the third prospects.
It sounds like tomorrow is going to be a very big and a very interesting day. One way or another, December 3, 2007 could possibly be the day that changes the entire course of the Yankee franchise.
Sandman,
based on Pete’s post, its got to be Tabata as the #3 in the deal. right?
“remember when we signed Pavano he was supposed to be the same pitcher as Beckett.”
No he wasn’t, Josh Beckett had put up three good years in a row before Boston traded for him. Pavano had one good season before NY signed him.
It is nice to know that Hank like his Father loses patiently quickly but unlike his father pulls away from a deal unlike George who thew away perennial all stars like Fred Mcgriff in impatient fits
raymagnetic: I think there’s a few more possibilites than that, don’t ya think?
Let’s just hope Hank Steinbrenner doesn’t find his Dave Winfield anytime soon….
good night, all.
Goodnight Bobcat, I love you and want to have your babies.
JDawg – i just cant see the twins making the deal tomorrow. i dunno…. im sure they dont like to feel rushed on a decision that is also the biggest one in their recent history. im not sure what to think about…..
“The Deadline”
Hankenstein: You have until Monday to accept the deal.
Twins: Yeah, and you won’t sign A-Fraud if he opts out either.
STFU, Hankenstein. Brian Cashman has already lost all credibility and bargaining power because of you. You’re making a fool out of not only yourself, but the entire organization.
The Yankees are not getting played here. That is just dumb to say.
You don’t fleece a team on every trade. The days of Bobby Abreu type trades are coming to an end now that teams have more cash. You don’t trade driftwood for Cy Young contenders.
It’s a very fair deal and the Yankees have every right to stand behind it and walk away if Minny passes.
And Hank is great. I don’t know why people react the way they do. We need an owner who will talk and act tough and make smart decisions.
This is a smart decision. This isn’t signing Pavano who had one good season in his career.
This is like getting a Pedro or Cone in their prime.
Hank is doing a great job. He signed the best manager and didn’t go with the sentimental favorite. He made Arod come back on his knees and publicly embarrassed Boras. He’s kept the core of the team intact and has come out to say how he understands the value of pitching.
This trade is all about pitching. Hughes isn’t Johan. He most likely never will be.
It’s a smart baseball move.
I hope the Twins make the deal.
“raymagnetic: I think there’s a few more possibilites than that, don’t ya think?”
No I don’t. If the Yankees get Santana and don’t win the WS it won’t matter how far they make it. If they get him and win the WS everyone is happy.
I hope the deadline passes already and the Yanks pass on Santana. It’s not about just winning the World Series anymore for me as a Yankees fan. It’s about the whole season, the excitement of home grown players and every time they go out on the mound to pitch, or come to an at bat. It’s about statistics, storylines and loyalty. I WANT TO SEE PHILIP HUGHES AS A YANKEE! At this point, I don’t care if the Red Sox get Santana. I want to see another set of Yankee lifers grow up. The last run of Jeter, Pettitte, Posada, Rivera, and Bernie was the best period for me as a fan. Now I want to see Cano, Wang, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy get passed the torch! Please!!!!
Boston Dave- Selfishly, I wish that they would push back the deadline until Tuesday because that’s the next day that I am off work. I won’t get the news about Santana until late tomorrow night!
Thank god it wont include Jackson, Horne or IPK.
If Cashman had been brushed aside why is Girardi the manager?
Do people seriously think that Hanks had some major attachment to Girardi over Mattingly, the guy his father hand picked to follow Torre?
I don’t like Hanks speaking so much. But him speaking does not mean Cashman is somehow out?
A public face is just that. A public face.
I like the deadline. The time for making offers, having it played back and forth between the RS and Yanks, looking for more and so on is done. The possible deals are there. Either take one of them or none of them and move along.
There comes a point where it needs to end. This is it. Too many other things to do than playing wet nurse to Smith.
does anyone find it odd that the yanks are giving them just a ONE day deadline? thats not much considering the magnitude of this.
raymagnetic
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:12 am
“remember when we signed Pavano he was supposed to be the same pitcher as Beckett.â€
No he wasn’t, Josh Beckett had put up three good years in a row before Boston traded for him. Pavano had one good season before NY signed him.
Ray – you’re dopey, Beckett had one good season and was a 500 pitcher before joining the Red Sox. Absolute apples to apples comparison with Pavano – but the Yankees got burned.
2001 Florida Marlins 2 2
2002 Florida Marlins 6 7
2003 Florida Marlins 9 8
2004 Florida Marlins 9 9
2005 Florida Marlins 15 8
The Twins have been playing the Yankees against the Red Sox all weekend long. If they were serious about doing a deal, they would’ve made the deal once Hankee (short-sightedly) caved and put Hughes into the mix.
The fact that Hankee has to say “I won’t get played” means he’s being played. This guy is an amateur swimming with sharks, he’s out of his league.
Especially when you consider that the Yankees are only bidding against themselves in these talks. The Red Sox are not serious, they are only involved to drive up the price.
Have you noticed Cashman’s disappearing act since the end of the season? By all accounts there were intense discussions within the organization about including Hughes in a deal, somebody had to be against the idea and obviously it wasn’t Hankee.
Also for anyone who thinks that Hank/ Cash are getting “played” go follow the nonsense the Moreno and the Angels are letting the Marlins pull off on them with those ridiculous Cabrera “negotiations.”
The marlins have agreed to two separate deals only to decide later they want more. And the angels have been doing this with them for weeks now.
I cant believe Miked up came back from break featuring a video package featuring The Diggety Dok
Oh man… Hank, please… before you alienate someone else, please just shut the f up.
I’m really getting tired of hearing his stuff all winter. We really need the Voice of Reason, Brian Cashman back in the fold.
i don’t think the twins accept the deal unless the yankees include horne or jackson. so, unless the yankees relent, he’s going to the red sox.
Are these expiring offers common in baseball? I’ve only heard of 2 (Damon & Santana).
For the love of god Hank, STFU!
Have you noticed Cashman’s disappearing act since the end of the season? By all accounts there were intense discussions within the organization about including Hughes in a deal, somebody had to be against the idea and obviously it wasn’t Hankee.
——————————————–
Actually, Cashman’s disappearing act began right around the time Mr. “If-He-Opts-Out-We-Won’t-Take-Him-Back” decided to take A-Fraud back.
As for someone being against the deal, one of the papers (possibly Newsday, I can’t remember) reported yesterday that Cashman had to be talked into it.
Heymans’ such a tool “the Yankees should give up Tabata Horne Jackson anybody just not IPK” how would he know about double a single a prospects and how good they are. At least he seen IPK
CB you hit it right there with the Cabrera/Angels/Fish talks. Its like the energizer bunny, and there needs to be a finishline.
The Yankees and Sox haven’t changed their offers by much, what one hand gives the other takes. The value to both teams have been set, and now its up to the Twins to figure out which deal they want.
Dragging this on, just like the Marlins Angels deal, only means that they are looking for more than an even deal. The Twins won’t get more. This is it. The Angels should do the same thing, here it is, yes or no.
Hank isn’t being played, they went to the point of where they felt it was the stopping point. They were probably weighing – yet again – the up and down sides of this deal. I would too. Yes, Santana would be great in pinstripes. The cost is high, you talk that over to make sure its really the price you want to pay.
Thats it. Now that they are set with their offer the other side has to say deal or no deal. Simple, straight forward, the games are done.
Beckett was a much more highly touted prospect. He clearly had superior stuff and the ability to dominate. He just needed to mature a little bit. Pavano didn’t have the same stuff or ability to dominate.
mel,
I don’t think its so unusual. Boston just did that with Mike Lowell. They said that if they he didn’t take the deal they were going to pull it off the table. That’s free agency, like Damon, so its a bit different.
I don’t think a one day deadline is that out of line here. The yankees have other business to attend to – the harren bidding is going to heat up and they can’t just continue to dawdle with the twins.
It also makes it clear this is the final offer. Its much better they are being definitive about this than if they go in a protracted situation like the Angels did last year with Baltimore on the tejada deal and right now with florida on cabrera.
Thanks, CB.
“Ray – you’re dopey, Beckett had one good season and was a 500 pitcher before joining the Red Sox. Absolute apples to apples comparison with Pavano – but the Yankees got burned.
2001 Florida Marlins 2 2
2002 Florida Marlins 6 7
2003 Florida Marlins 9 8
2004 Florida Marlins 9 9
2005 Florida Marlins 15 8″
Okay, that was Beckett’s record. Big Deal.
Beckett ERA+
2003 138
2004 108
2005 118
He did this when he was 23,24,25
Pavano ERA+
2002 80
2003 98
2004 137
He did this when he was 26,27,28
Now I may be Dopey, but I’m taking Beckett the Younger pitcher with 3 straight good years 8 days out of the week.
I think it was perfectly prudent for Hank to set the deadline. At this point, New York has the better offer on the table, so do the Twins want to accept it, or not? The game of Musical Prospects can only go for so long. This move effectively puts an end to the Twins’ ability to jack up the price between the two teams, which is a-okay with me. The Yanks have other business to attend to, other needs to fill, and everyone needs to get on with their lives.
Michael Kays’ a tool too the other day he went on about how unimpressed he was with Hughes and the Yankees should trade him. He does a lousy job calling games and now hes qualified to evaluate pitchers and be the GM. Before you say that he is just giving his opinion on his talk show remember he only has that gig because he the Yankees play by play man and he only has that gig because he George Steinbreners stooge from way back. Before that he was terrible writer for the daily news who made things up to be inflammatory not to inform. Not a speck of talent anywhere on the man
I just keep thinking about Randy Johnson getting run out of town on the heels of two 17-win seasons. Was that a bad performance for New York? There is absolutely no reason to believe that Santana will be a success in NY – people will be calling for his head with 17 or 18 wins.
Let the BEDARD Sweepstakes Begin!!!
The Washington Post reports that Erik Bedard has informed the Orioles he has no interest in signing an extension to stay in Baltimore.
WOW
In addition to telling the Twins that he won’t accept an in-season trade, Johan Santana informed the team he’s only willing to waive his no-trade clause to go to the Yankees or Red Sox, the Providence Journal reports.
the yankees SHOULD trade jackson or horne. it will not get it done. unless one of them is included, either the deadline will pass or he’s headed to the red sox. he will not get dealt to the yankees with their package as it is right now. it just won’t get it done.
Absolutely CB. Its really not a one day deadline anyway. They have been talking for a while, the back and forth has brought the Yankees to this current offering and that it. They are at the limit. Here it is.
Think of it as a pitching duel with a batter. After so many pitches being fouled off, full count, you reach a point to challenge. Lay it out there, hit it or sit down.
it really is:
Yankees vs Red Sox….
Rob, I just think of wins as more or less of a meaningless stat…if you give up 6 runs but the team scores 8, you may have pitched terribly but still be credited with the win. Conversely, you could give up one run in nine innings and still be credited with the loss. Are wins really that good of an indicator of a pitcher’s skill, or more of an indication of how the offense performed in relation to the pitcher?
The Bedard news should spur the Twins.
I’d be shocked if the Twins chose Bostons offer over the Yankees, but I’m not sure if I want them to, to be honest :S
Santana, who has a full-no trade clause and intends to wield it to land a six-year contract extension from any team striking a deal for him, told the Twins that he would veto a trade to any team except the Yankees or Red Sox.
Its probable that santana from 2008-2013 won’t be as good as the santana from 2003-2008
But these comparisons people keep making with past moves by the yankees are completely off the mark.
Randy Johnson was over 40 and had an extensive history of back problems.
How is that remotely comparable to Santana?
This is not business as usual for the yankees. You many disagree with giving up hughes but do not knock santana.
This is a pitcher whose pitched to a ERA+ of 150 or so the past 4 years. That is astonishing.
Think of every starting pitcher the yankees have had over the past 30 years. That includes Clemens Cy Young year.
Santana right now is better than any of them. Guidry ’78 would be the last one who was close to as good as santana.
Hank is the MAN !
I wrote the other day Johan should pick the team he wants to go to. He should want Melkey not Damon in center or Ellsbury not Crisp. He should want Hughes or Buckholtz with him not with the Twins.
I agree CB
It’s been widely characterized as a contest with Boston, which is unfortunate. There’s no proof Boston is serious but it’s to their advantage to make it look that way. Even if they’re moderately serious, so what? I don’t want to give up a Yankee franchise pitcher who could easily be as good as Santana, who’s younger, will cost about $100,000,000 less, and is no less likely to need elbow surgery. It seems we have a guy, Hank, who likes to bid against himself. And he or some nimrod he listens to has no backbone, flutters around worrying about another team to the point where he wrecks his own. I used to think Tom Hicks was an embarrassment. Save Phil Hughes and Melky. “Stand By Your Man,” as Tammy Wynette sang.
“… how would he know about double a single a prospects and how good they are.”
James, Single-A and Double-A prospects are just that – prospects. Some of the best at that level never come close to making it in the majors.
If the Twins wants Tataba along with Hughes and Cabrera, the Yankees should have made that deal yesterday, and consider themselves very lucky.
Rob,
He asked for a trade.
If the Yanks throw in Kennedy, it will be too much, especially without Pettitte in the rotation. Plus, I have Kennedy penciled into Mussina’s spot, once Moose stinks up the joint.
Santana
Wang
Joba
Mussina (Kennedy)
Igawa?
The LA Press ( which is rather tame compared to NYC ) is ripping the Marlin FO once again on how they conduct business….Not only are they strining the Halos along, there screwing around with the Dodgers….Apparently their front office people have these long term contracts and just have their heads up their tailpipes…..Also some here are suggesting that the Yanks trade Hughes or Kennedy for Harden if the Santana deal falls though…..No way….Snatana is the only pitcher that would warrant a hughes deal…..Get real, stay away from Billy Beane, he’ll steal you blind……Word of advise, keep what you have, there’s really not that much out there that is an improvement from what we have……
james,
Sadly, I don’t think he cares who is on the team or in CF. I think he just cares about what size the check is.
Seriously Ray – grow up. You would sell the farm to get Santana over Wang? They have the same results – who cares about ERA and strikeouts – at that point it’s only style points. Alan Houston had the prettiest jump shot in basketball and no instincts for the game – what were the results? I believe the Yankees had a right to expect Beckett-like performance from Pavano based on their age and past performance. The fact that you could have two pitchers in nearly identical situations deliver so dramatically different results is reason to be cautious of giving away everything for Santana.
Your arguements are dishonest – but as they say when the facts are against you argue the law and when the law is against you argue the facts and when both are against you just argue.
berra8,
That’s not necessarily true.
The yankees have offered by far the best player in phil hughes and in melky a cheap starting center fielder.
As far as prospects go, there really is no comparison between Ellsbury and Hughes. Ellesbury is a top 25 type prospect. Hughes is a top 3 type prospect. In addition he is a pitcher.
The red sox offer is very good. But they haven’t put Ellsbury and Lester together.
The yankees should stand on this offer. It is very fair. The oportunity to get an ace like santana is rare.
But the opportunity to acquire a talent like Phil Hughes in the post revenue sharing era through a trade is very uncommon.
Bobcat! I told you to clean up your room before you come and play with your Yankee friends! Maybe you should invite them over sometime. You know, mommy’s vajajay could use a little lovin’.
The Yankees won’t throw in Kennedy. That would be the dumbest decision possible
Susan, its not a contest with Boston, its a contest with the Twins where the only two teams playing is Boston and the Yankees.
Boston will have at least 6 SPs if Buchholz is brought up. I bet it causes more problems than it solves for them.
G. Love i wrote that too, Yankees Red Sox whoever gives him 150 million
How could you say it’s “probable” Santana won’t be as effective in the next five years? He may have had an “off year” by his already high standard, but are there any other indicators he has been slowing down? Great numbers, minimal injury, etc…and yet we’re all clamoring to have Pettitte, a 35 year old with chronic elbow trouble return to the fold because we need him? And by the way, didn’t Pettitte post a 2.39 era at age 33?
“I don’t want to give up a Yankee franchise pitcher who could easily be as good as Santana, who’s younger, will cost about $100,000,000 less, and is no less likely to need elbow surgery”
And that, in a nutshell, is the exact reason we shouldn’t move Hughes. Santana’s past greatness doesn’t guarantee future greatness or health. I’m fine with trading prospects for known commodities, just not ones who project as potential superstars.
Boston Dave:
Re: Santana and Bedard:
Just when I thought it was safe to go to sleep…
=P
CB,
I just don’t understand why they would even leave it to chance. Just make it happen. The current Yankee team is built to win now. even if they include horne, they will have santana, wang, moose, kennedy, joba, igawa, jeff karstens and jeff marquez to fill in if necessary. horne is a good prospect, but i don’t think the yankees should risk losing santana to their main rival by not including him.
as for jackson, he’s a potential 20-30 centerfielder. rare, and exciting, but MUCH easier to find on the open market than a santana. a good example is this year: mike cameron is probably a good AJ comp. not only that, but andruw jones, torii hunter and aaron roward were all on the market this year. talented, multi-dimensional centerfielders are nice, but not nearly as hard to find.
why would the yankees risk losing him to the red sox over one of these guys?
What do you guys think the difference per annum would be between the extensions negotiated by Sox and the Yankees for Santana? I say about $5M. $18-$20M from the Sox. $23-$25M from the Yankees.
If the Sox did the trade, what final offer by the Sox would make Santana push the chair back from the table and say, “Thanks, but now thanks. I think I’ll go back and serve out the rest of my prison term.”?
my point is, the core of this yankee team is aging. we can’t really afford to wait for the young yankee pitching to develop. time is running short for mo and posada, and for jeter and a-rod to still be in their primes.
“Seriously Ray – grow up. You would sell the farm to get Santana over Wang? They have the same results – who cares about ERA and strikeouts”
I actually think it would be quite foolish to trade Wang for Santana and I’ve stated that opinion on this blog on several occasions.
“I believe the Yankees had a right to expect Beckett-like performance from Pavano based on their age and past performance.”
I believe the Yankees gave Pavano a 4 year deal based on one good year of performance. Pavano, who is older than Beckett by four years had 2 less good seasons than Beckett. There was no reason for the Yankees to expect similar results based on what the two pitchers had done.
Calm down and relax. One way or another we will know today sometime.
The real deal is out there, its up to Smith to figure it out.
I kind of wish that the Twins would decline the offer, and as daunting as it may sound, we can/should just move on with Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, and hopefully Pettitte. If Santana really wants to be a Yankee, he can decline to be traded to the Red Sox, and wait until he becomes a free agent next year. What is the possibility of that guys?
berra,
What are you talking about? We get 3 more years of Mo, 4 of Posada, 3 (?) of Jeter, and 10 (count them, 10!) of Alex. lol.
Well Ray why is it foolish to trade Wang for Santana if ERA and strikeouts are so much more important than Wins and Losses?
And if Pavano is so over the hill why would you want Santana at all?
“How could you say it’s “probable†Santana won’t be as effective in the next five years?”
It’s easy to say that. Pitcher become less effective as they get older. How much less – that’s difficult to say. But they do get less effective.
So Santana from ages 29-34 is not going to be as effective as the Santana who was throwing from ages of 23-28. He’s just not. There’s no way to project Santana will be better at age 34 than he was at age 27.
Santana’s game depends on the difference in velocity he generates between his plus fastball and his devastating change. As his fastball loses a few ticks the difference between his fastball and change will diminsh. When this is going to happen I have no idea. But it will happen.
Also, I’m not saying this based on this “off year” he had. I don’t subscribe to that, though I do think its a concern.
Though this past year was Santana “worst” it was still better than the best year many all star caliber pitchers have. He pitched to an ERA+ of 133.
But if you don’t buy any of what i’m saying here is a very good statistical projection that suggests how unlikely it is for santana to continue at his current performance level for the next five years – not impossible only unlikely.
http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/changeup/
“Santana’s past greatness doesn’t guarantee future greatness or health.”
Yeah, because Hughes’s numbers in the minors guarantee both of those.
“I’m fine with trading prospects for known commodities, just not ones who project as potential superstars.”
Yeah, screw the Twins for asking for someone good for someone great. Greedy bastards.
mel,
hilarious and tragic at the same time.
The only thing Pavano and Beckett have in common is the team they come up with.
Seriously, that’s it.
Santana will only accept trades to yanks and redsox not big news but atleast that sounds like he would accept boston….its on rotoworld I dont know how to link it or I would.
berra,
10 years, 10 fingers. If you cut one off for each passing year, any chance you end up with any in the end?
I’d take Hughes out this deal right now
1. wait, santana said he’d waive his NTC to play in boston?! but he hates boston! the racism! the weather! the monster! he’d NEVER play in boston! how could this be?!?!
2. hank’s an idiot.
berra8,
Here are a couple of reason why they need to draw the line here and be patient.
If they trade phil and get santana here is their rotation:
Santana/ Wang/Joba/ Kennedy/ Mussina.
Two problems – Joba is on an innings cap and can’t throw 200 innings (one short term benefit of santana over hughes). Other problem – mussina stinks and is going to be worse this year than last he’s not a good bet to last the season.
Then there are injuries.
My point – they are absolutely going to need another starter (probably two) from the minor leagues. After Joba/ Kennedy/ Horne the quality of healthy pitchers who are at AA or above and ready for the bigs drops rapidly. Very rapidly. Maybe Dan McCutcheon will be ready. Otherwise you are going to have the same parade of Clippard, Wright, Igawa, etc. next year.
In other words if you want to win next year you are going to need Horne.
On Jackson – they are already trading melky. It is not true that finding a centerfielder is easy. Up the middle positions are all premium defensive spots. Center at the Stadium is enormous. Jackson has tremendous speed and looks like he may be special.
And the system has very, very few blue chip position player talents at the AA and above level.
Unless you want to see more old free agent outfielders flailing for balls they have to grow their own, especially at premium positions like center.
Have patience. The twins know how special phil hughes is.
I hope this ends soon……getting bored with waiting.
“Well Ray why is it foolish to trade Wang for Santana if ERA and strikeouts are so much more important than Wins and Losses?
And if Pavano is so over the hill why would you want Santana at all?”
You’re completely missing what I’m saying. ERA+ is different from ERA. ERA+ above 100 means you are an above average pitcher. Carl Pavano had 1 year being an above average pitcher when the Yankees signed him. Beckett had 3 years of being well above average at a younger age when the Sox traded for him.
Do you understand now why Beckett was a better pitcher?
I never said Pavano was over the hill but he was clearly not a great pitcher when the Yankees gave him his deal.
I think it’s foolish to trade Wang for Santana because Wang is a well above average pitcher and the tradeoff is not great enough for the Yankees to make that trade.
Overstand?
This is so very analytical. Thank you great Kasey for bestowing your wisdom on the blog as usual.
As painful as it to remember, many a team was on the Pavano tour that winter…In fact it came down the Boston and the Yanks…..He was the hot arm of the FA class that offseason…..He was coming off what many believed to be his breakout season…Only it was the start of his breakdown career….Santana is a completely different animal, the expectations in NY will be very unreasonably high especially after the Yanks gave away Hughes who was like giving away a family member……
A source told the NJ Ledger that the Red Sox HAVENT offered Ellsbury.
“The second official, who asked not to be named because of the sensitive nature of trade discussions, denied an ESPN.com report that Boston relented and is willing to include outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury in a trade for Santana. The official reiterated what was reported last week: The Red Sox would put Ellsbury in the deal only if the Twins included a significant “extra piece” in addition to Santana.
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledge.....038;coll=1
I love my Wanger. It would be totally hilarious if Wang outperformed Santana. Unlikely, but hilarious because of all the Wang hate this year.
First one with the phrase “HANK’S YANKS” copycats go away. Where the heck is Cash, are they making him stay out of the picture or what?
Fan the Yankees used to toss players in deals all the time in the 80′s just to make them happen and they absolutely sucked. Fred Mcgriff was a low a ball prospect that George never heard of so he tossed him in a deal for a bum. He came with an eyelash of a Hof career. after this happened opposing GMs would stop a deal at the last minute and ask for players who were years away from the big leagues (like Tabata) and George who was in on everything even deals for utility players would give away future all stars for garbage and then fire the GM who now had the job because he already fired the GM who begged him not to make the deal.
Heyman and other media types who would give away the store becuase they could care less will kill the Yankees if they don’t make the trade and Boston does. If they do make the trade and Hughes wins th Cy Young they’ll kill the Yankees. If Horne wins the Cy Young They’ll ask why did you just toss him away. Heyman’s a tool who only wants to gets to nationally known. He risen up to SI and dreams of cushy job at ESPN with Gammons and Tim Kurkjen. Truth and Rational thought are road block to ESPN, bashing everything the Yankees do, don’t do and might do is an express lane to Bristol. Remember everyone killing the Yankees for weeks last year for not dealing Joba for Gagne. Remember how loud their screams were, remember how bad Gagne was and how Great Joba was to illicit faintest of praise for the Yankees.
oh, sorry, raymagnetic.
i think i’ve worked out a proposed deal where the yanks can get nathan, neshek, santana, morneau and mauer while only sacrificing betemit, andy phillips, pavano and MAYBE, if push comes to shove, horne.
SAVE PHIL HUGHES! THERE IS A ZERO PERCENT CHANCE HE’LL BE ANYTHING LESS THAN THE SECOND COMING OF CLEMENS!
santana saying he’d waive the NTC for boston is just a bluff. he hates it there, what with all the racism and precipitation.
but nevermind, if the yanks can’t get santana, they’ll just get haren AND bedard. and then sign sabathia and peavy next year. imagine that rotation! i mean, those four along with hall of fame hughes! then we can have joba pitch the 7th and 8th innings every game. well, at least when neshek and nathan are tired.
there ya go. that’s a little closer to on par with what’s been going on here for the last couple of days. wisdom, indeed.
If it’s true that Boston isn’t offering Ellsbury, we have no reason to offer Hughes.
This is exactly why givind an ultimatum was the right move and hank is hardly an idiot for doing so:
“At the beginning of the process they asked for (Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera),” the official said, “and now they’re in the deal.”
The Twins “know exactly where (the Red Sox) stand and they keep coming back,” the official said.
\
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledge.....038;coll=1
Kasey, that still doesn’t address why Hank’s and idiot. Also, you’ve never seen me advocate any foolish trades as the ones you’ve mentioned.
So again, please tell me why Hank is an idiot. I’d love to know why oh great knowledgeable one.
Pat M.
Thanks for that scouting report on Romine. Sounds good. The depth they suddenly have in the low minors at catcher is impressive.
Romine, Weems, and of course Montero. He absolutely tore the cover off the ball in winter league. I’m looking forward to seeing how he does in low A.
That was a really good article to read. It sounded like the Yanks would include a Horne or Jackson type prospect to get the deal done. Hank only said I will not include Kennedy he didn’t name anyone else. So the twins started off asking for Hughes, Yanks included Hughes and now they still aren’t satisfied or didn’t even give the Yanks an answer. Should be interesting tomorrow.
Boston Dave
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
either horne or AJ… just my opinion but i think the yanks did not want to offer either… then they did and gave the twins the deadline… knowing that this was the best deal they were going to offer
hughes, melky, horne or AJ
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I think the third player will be Betemit. He can fill another slot for the Twins. less than three years service time, young and less than 500,000 dollars
Did anyone read the newyork times article…..“How can I go any higher?†Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal.
Also the NY Post is saying the same thing that an official said that Boston has NOT offered Ellsbury.
Ken Rosenthal at foxsports.com says that the Twins want Gonzalez and Horne along with Hughes and Cabrera in the deal for Santana.
Hank we get it man, you care about your team and you are as passionate as your dad, we accept you as fans. Now can you please stick to ownership and let your employee Brian Cashman who was doing a great job before you got your inherited position, do his job as managing the team OFF the field? If your dad who had a great run as owner can trust Cashman, why can’t you? All you have to do is say yes or no to his ideas and pleeeeeeeez SHUT UP and stay OFF the limelight. Let the Yankees be just that instead of being Hank’s Yank’s.
“The Red Sox would put Ellsbury in the deal only if the Twins included a significant “extra piece†in addition to Santana.”
If this is true…why is Hughes in this deal at all? If the Sox’s package is centered around Lester, who is inferior to both Hughes and Kennedy, why did the Yankees bump up their offer? That’s what bugs me.
If it’s really Lester/Crisp/some other guys that the Yanks are up against…Kennedy/Melky/some other guys beats that. If the Twins don’t like either…well, if Andy comes back, that’s fine by me. The 2007 Yankees beat the 2007 Red Sox head to head. Jorge really shouldn’t have said anything about Andy. That gave the Twins more leverage, which sucks.
As Boston Dave said earlier the providence paper reported ellsbury was offerred. Sean McCadam wrote the story and he’s very close to the sox organization. I’d take his rumor over that of the local new york papers.
http://www.projo.com/redsox/co.....961f1.html
I hope they get DeJesus for cf….and Grienke for the bullpen….If they sign A.Jones they could make him available….any thoughts?
Just because the Yankees put a deadline on this, don’t think it can’t be revisited. Smith may pull out and see who else shakes loose..Dodgers, Angels, the loser for Cabrera? He’s got until spring training.
Interesting stuff from Will Carrol at baseball prospectus.
Probably a twins leak. Both the yankees and sox offers come up short:
The Yankees are going to have to offer more than what they have on the table. The team thought putting Phil Hughes on the table was enough, but the Twins aren’t selling Johan Santana for anything less than three major-league ready prospects. The Red Sox offer is also short, leaving some wiggle room for other teams – the Mariners? – to make a run. The M’s could offer an attractive package, but Jeff Clement, a catcher, isn’t that interesting with Joe Mauer locked in.
http://www.baseballprospectus......red/?p=689
ERA + is a fantasy geek stat and has nothing to do with any of this. You are parsing stats solely to prevail in an arguement not to seriously address the cautionary tale of Carl Pavano. If you would use silly fantasy stats to judge 6 foot 5 power pitchers you would be out of a job pretty quickly. Would Wang have ever gotten on the roster? This is such blatant Monday morning quarterbacking.
I was just about to ask who is Gonzalez, and then I remembered.
I think it’s time for bed.
hope the world doesn’t end in the next nine hours, though, given my life, it probably will.
whozat,
Only thing I can think of is maybe the Twins said that if the Yankees want Johan, they have to add Hughes or they just wont trade him at all. I think the Yankees are more interested in having Johan than trying to keep him away from Boston.
“ERA + is a fantasy geek stat and has nothing to do with any of this.”
Yeah, just because it correlates extremely well with pitching performance doesn’t mean anything! Let’s go back to saying stuff like “oh, he has a great baseball face”.
That NY Times article was very interesing.
Hanks says the issue was never the third player because the twins are still griping about “only” hughes and melky.
Also sounds like he is making a statement about what teams ask the yankees for and is making this a symbolic issue:
Steinbrenner said the Twins and the Yankees had not haggled over the third player in their potential trade, because Minnesota had not accepted the premise of a deal centered on Hughes and Cabrera. But if the Twins asked for Kennedy or a comparable prospect — a group that includes Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson and José Tabata — the Yankees would pass.
“How can I go any higher?†Steinbrenner said. “What do they want — Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera? I can’t do that kind of thing. It’s crazy. It’s suicidal. In the past 20 or 30 years, teams have always asked more from the Yankees than they have of anybody else, and that’s going to stop. I’ve made the best offer Minnesota is going to get, and the fact is, it’s an offer we can go away happy and they can go away happy.â€
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....ref=slogin
“Only thing I can think of is maybe the Twins said that if the Yankees want Johan, they have to add Hughes or they just wont trade him at all. ”
And, like I said, fine. As long as Andy comes back:) I’d happily go into the season with Andy, Wang and the three kids with Moose in the picture. I’d be less happy to go in with Wang, Moose and the three kids. The Yanks didn’t get shut down by great pitching in the postseason, they psyched themselves out of being able to hit a VERY hittable Sabathia. Frankly, all they needed was adequate pitching and to stop choking at the plate. The Sox pitching was mediocre to bad outside of Beckett, Okajima and Papelbon. I’d be fine making another run with the 2007 team, plus the kids and bullpen help.
However, it seems less likely that Andy will be back. I think Jorge publicizing that fact reduced the Yankees’ ability to convince Minny that they’ll walk away. That took leverage away from the Yankees, and that was stupid on Jorge’s part.
E-roc, please tell me you’re kidding. The former AG, Horne, Hughes, and Cabrera? Take out Hughes and that would still be plenty.
ERA+ is a useful stat. Its also cited incorrectly on such a consistent basis is hard to get over. Its not the be all and end all everyone thinks.
People use it to evaluate red sox pitchers or even rockies pitchers. what sense does that make?
I’m going to bed – you’re all fantasy league geeks!
And Wang and Hughes have nice baseball faces!
mel,
i read that rosenthal article earlier. My interpretation of what he wrote was different. I could be wrong but what I when i read it i thought he meant one or the other even though he used the word “and.” It was the context. But I could be wrong.
I have a feeling that tomorrow afternoon we will hear a lot of that the Twins are going to keep Santana or are not ready to make a decision because the offers don’t blow them away. Then they will wait until night time to see if either team increases their offers and then we will hear what there answer will be.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7517774
susan mullen
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:47 am
It’s been widely characterized as a contest with Boston, which is unfortunate. There’s no proof Boston is serious but it’s to their advantage to make it look that way. Even if they’re moderately serious, so what? I don’t want to give up a Yankee franchise pitcher who could easily be as good as Santana, who’s younger, will cost about $100,000,000 less, and is no less likely to need elbow surgery. It seems we have a guy, Hank, who likes to bid against himself. And he or some nimrod he listens to has no backbone, flutters around worrying about another team to the point where he wrecks his own. I used to think Tom Hicks was an embarrassment. Save Phil Hughes and Melky. “Stand By Your Man,†as Tammy Wynette sang.
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How many times was Tammy Whynot married and divorced?
I think this is just poor writing on rosenthal’s part. He says in the article there will only be three players two of whom are melky and huges then says gonzalez and horne – I think he means or but I don’t know
“The sticking point with the Yankees is the identity of the third player. The Yankees want it to be a mid-level prospect, but the Twins have asked for players such as Class AAA shortstop Alberto Gonzalez and Class AA right-hander Alan Horne.”
E-roc,
Thanks for the link.
CB,
I agree. It sound like either and that the Yankees are balking at either?
I think the issue may be even more than the third player. who knows. in that ny times article hank said the sticking point was that the twins are accepting the premise of a hughes-cabrera deal.
i think the twins issue may in fact be the “second” player not the third.
All the rumors are that they don’t think much of melky. that’s just a negotiating ploy i suppose as they really need him given hunter left.
i think they want melky to be the “third player” and a higher ceiling player as the second. they still may be on kennedy. who knows.
That’s it CB!! Exactly! Another useless level of context to give the geeks something to waste their time on like clutch stats and the supposed fielding chances formula that proves Jeter is the worst Shortstop in the history of baseball. It’s all noise – every park is different. It’s part of what makes baseball such a great game and it’s another thing to debate about – but people wield these stats as if they were gospel.
Now, off to bed.
i meant are not accepting the premise of a hughes-melky deal
rob,
not quite what i was saying. ERA+ is useful and has a role in thinking about pitching.
but its just often used incorrectly. people use the statistic and don’t think of why controling for ball park makes sense in the context of how they are using the stat.
statistics are very important but not the be all and end all of things.
I’d rather have Lester than Kennedy myself but if Ellsbury isnt being offered we shouldnt offer Hughes either. Its gonna suk to see Hughes go…
berra8
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:56 am
CB,
I just don’t understand why they would even leave it to chance. Just make it happen. The current Yankee team is built to win now. even if they include horne, they will have santana, wang, moose, kennedy, joba, igawa, jeff karstens and jeff marquez to fill in if necessary. horne is a good prospect, but i don’t think the yankees should risk losing santana to their main rival by not including him.
as for jackson, he’s a potential 20-30 centerfielder. rare, and exciting, but MUCH easier to find on the open market than a santana. a good example is this year: mike cameron is probably a good AJ comp. not only that, but andruw jones, torii hunter and aaron roward were all on the market this year. talented, multi-dimensional centerfielders are nice, but not nearly as hard to find.
why would the yankees risk losing him to the red sox over one of these guys?
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You say that Jackson is a 20-30 guy and list center fielders that would make it easy to replace him like Cameron, Jones, Hunter, Rowand. You also didn’t mention their cost, or the fact that all of them are 10-15 years older than Jackson. Just admit that you’re either a Twins or Red Sox fan in drag and drop the charade.
I know lots of people are saying that Hughes going isn’t all that bad since we’re getting Santana but if I see that the Yankees land Santana tomorrow and Hughes is gone, it’s going to be a horribly sad day for me. I have been waiting a long time to see him grow up and develop on the Yankees and you can bet that once he’s gone, he won’t ever return.
Guys remember we read what we’re suppose to read,according to Bobcat.If Hank is trying to let the rest of the baseball community know that the Yankees will not be pushovers anymore,or in future trade talks he’s doing a good job with the Twins.I often felt that the Yankees gave up too much in these trade deals.Even though I’m glad we didn’t get ~Gagme~
this summer and redsucks did,look at the asking price for a 3mo rental.
raymagnetic @ 12:00 AM: “World Series or Bust” sets you up for a lot of dissapointment in life. Do we have any mathematicians in the house?
Why does every journalist keep saying that the Yankees stated that they would never sign Arod if he opted out??? They said that they would not *negotiate.* They were very careful in choosing their words and they have not gone back on anything.
Hank is saying that the offer is good for today and that’s it. That’s pretty clear as well. I doubt they’ll go back on their word and up the offer and/or keep it on the table after today.
Either way I’m happy with what we’ve got. Twins did us a favor.