Five more for the Hall of Fame
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- December
- 3
The two new veteran committees of the Hall of Fame have put five people in Cooperstown.
Dick Williams (manager), Billy Southworth (manager), Barney Dreyfuss (executive), Bowie Kuhn (executive) and Walter O’Malley (executive) will be inducted in Juiy. Williams is the only new Hall of Famer still living.
It’s a travesty that a lukwarm commissioner like Kuhn gets it and a groundbreaking figure like MLBPA founder Marvin Miller does not. Miller received only 25 percent of the vote, well short of the 75 percent needed. It’s supposed to be a Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Well-Liked.
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The Slimeball O`Malley got in
I can’t believe it
...Is it a shame that I don’t know who any of these guys are?
Your posting so fast the system is overloading Pete…
I cannot believe that Billy Martin only got 3 votes. With regard to Miller might it be that the veterans who are on the committee feel like Miller did not take care of them and only took care of the present day players so that might be why?? Makes no sense to me.
Me either Rebecca.
Well Walter O`Malley is the guy that took the Dodger out of Brooklyn
Miller and Curt Flood should be in the Hall for what they did for baseball players
I really don’t want to go to class right now, it’ll likely ruin my most excellent mood…but we all must make sacrifices, I guess
Mike NYY
Save the Big Three-Or brought baseball to the west coast. You can look at it both ways.
Rebecca: Can’t you bring the laptop to class? Isn’t wireless internet in your classrooms?
o ‘malley was NOT the villain in the move to LA. robert moses refused to give
the dodgers the land in brooklyn for their planned domed stadium
Or brought baseball to the west coast. You can look at it both ways.
Any other team could have went to the west coast. It didn’t have to be one of the most popular teams. O`Malley did it for money not to be a pioneer
I know of Williams, Kuhn, and O’Malley, but I don’t know the other two. Dick Williams ended up managing nearly half of the teams in the league! Well, I guess that it’s time for me to go to work. Take care, everyone and hopefully we will hear some big, big news about the Santana situation by the end of the day!
Mike: Being a pioneer and doing it for the money are not mutually exclusive. He did it for both reasons, in addition to the fame and notoriety.
Anyone who wants to know more about O’Malley only need to watch the most excellent HBO documentary that was on this summer about the Dodgers. I am sure it is on HBO ON Demand at this point. Like Mike F said O’Malley wanted to stay in New York BUT Moses had more power and made it so his only choice was to move. The documentary really gives you a great feel for what the Dodgers meant to Brooklyn and how much a part of the fabric of the city they were and how societal changes affected the team and the need to move.
exactly gayle!
I really thought Miller would get in. Maybe after he dies.
o ‘malley was NOT the villain in the move to LA. robert moses refused to give
the dodgers the land in brooklyn for their planned domed stadium
Moses offered O`Malley the exact deal in Queens that the Mets got.
The Dodgers still had the second highest attendance in baseball at Ebbets Field
Yeah I saw that Dodger special. It was great and I’m saying that as a guy born a generation after they moved away. Moses comes off like the villian, he only wanted a team to play in Flushing so that people could drive to games on the highways he was designing. He got his wish, I understand there is a minor league team plaing in Flushing nowadays. The Dodgers were smart to move, man I wish I could move live in LA.
Anyone know how the internal debate is conducted for the Vets committee? Is it done in a central place or just votes tabulated remotely and electronically? Is there an actual meeting and debate?
Agree that Kuhn should not be there, still mad at him for the tar bat ruling.
Phil I listened to the press conference announcement on the way in and they did meet although some people had to do it via conference call as they were unable to make it to Nashville. Then after the discussion votes are cast. The actual press conference is on mlb.com and you can hear the woman (sorry I do not know her name go through how the process worked this time out)
Phil—Not in the classes I have today; the classes are small enough that having a laptop in them (when I never have before) would attract the wrong sort of notice.
That, and knowing me I’d find a way to slip and fall and destroy it…
Where is Gil Hodges? He is much more deserving than Dick Williams or Billy Southworth. Hodges was moved from his natural position (Catcher) to first base he became one of the best fielding firstbaseman of his era, his batting stats are comparable if not better than Tony Perez’s or Orlando Cepeda’s. He died at 47, he would have led the Mets to great success in the 70”s . Its a shame that he is not in the Hall of Fame
Viking Coach – The vets committee only votes on players every-other year. They voted on them last year, hence no vote on players this year.
Gayle: Thanks…I can’t listen to it due to my location, but it is good to know there is some discussion going on.
Rebecca: That’s too bad. When getting my Master’s, I had to have the laptop there to “take notes” while following the Yanks gamecast on-line.
Pete,
Please tell me before I have to go to sleep tonight that the Yankees will not get Santana.
I will sleep better.
Pete-
Still no Cashman sightings?
After reading John Helyar’s “Lord’s of the Realm”, I gained a HUGE respect for Marvin Miller. Marvin Miller is one of baseball’s unsung Hero’s. Granted A-Rod’s 300 million dollar contract is a direct result of Miller’s efforts. Any man that strives for labor rights and fundementally changed the face of the player’s union and baseball deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
anyone see this?
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282
Someone call a wahbulance for the Twins, now the Yankees should really pull out of the deal. f’em They want their cake and want to eat it too. I want Phil to grow with us, not a bunch of cry babies.
Can someone tell me how what Hank did would be tampering? Everyone knows the Twins are in talks with the Yankees and Soxs.
Its not the end of the world if we dont get Johantastic this winter.
They want their cake and want to eat it too.
Off Topic but that saying makes no sense
If I want my cake of course I also want to eat it. What do you do with your cake?
I think the thing they’re pointing to is the comment about ‘wanting Santana’. But, to my knowledge, there hasn’t been a penalty levied for tampering in some time. Only teams whining about it.
Mike you can give it away.
That guy La Velle Neal from the Star Tribune has been wrong over and over again throughout this process.
Over the weekend he is the one who said the yankees had offerred hughes/ kennedy and Melky but the twins weren’t satisfied with that package.
Later on he admitted that was just speculation on his part. It seems he’s throwing things out there to get his name on mlb trade rumors/ other blogs.
The story in the minnesota paper by the guy who i think is their beat reporter was a better one.
http://www.startribune.com/twins/story/1586687.html
I don’t know the exact definition, but I think that openly talking about desiring another team’s player is tampering.
Kuhn was a lousy commissioner at best. That’s a sham. Good for Dick Williams.
Well isn’t it obvious if the Yankees are in trade talks with the Twins that they want him? It isn’t like he has an opt out clause in his contract, and the Yankees are getting him to opt out to sign him.
Kuhn should not be in there. He made a bunch of disastrous decisions, one being to stop Charlie O. Finlay from selling off the A’s players. Since baseball began, you could just buy players from other teams, and this actually maintained smaller markets abilities to keep going because the bigger markets would give them money. Connie Mack used to do that, and so did tons of other owners/organizations. Then, back in the `70’s, Kuhn idiotically decided to stop the practice. We have seen what the abolition of that rather fair redistribution of baseball wealth has gotten us. What a maroon!
Off Topic but that saying makes no sense
If I want my cake of course I also want to eat it. What do you do with your cake?
Technically the saying is supossed to go like this:
You can’t eat your cake and have it too.
As to say that you can either have a cake or eat a cake, because once you eat it you can’t have it anymore…because it’s eaten…and no longer there…
It’s only “tamering” when the Yankees say they want Johan Santana. If the Reds said it, they’d be laughed out of Nashville. I guess to the Twins it sounded like Hank was making an appeal to Santana.
Phil, if true, that’s a little silly—I mean what have all these negotiations been for? It’s not like he mentioned anything about a deal or a contract extension.
But if you have eaten the cake doesn’t that mean you had it at one point?
Jennifer, I agree with you that to say “I want Johan on my team” is tampering. Didn’t Posada say the same thing last week? Or is it an owner saying it that makes it tampering. I always thought tampering was what the Sox did to the Dodgers last year, behind the scenes manipulating to get Drew to opt out and come to their team. Hank stating what is obvious from reading any sports related news outlet doesn’t strike me as actionable. To let Bonds’ record stand and then to go after Hank for restating the obvious is ludicrous.
Jennifer
By Hank saying,
“and you can make that clear — for his sake, to know that I do want him”
It is speaking to a player while they are under control of another team. He did it through the media and not in person but it still could be seen as communication. Some of it is semantics but GMs usually say nothing or will use the “a player like a Johan Santana” or a Johna Santana type player instead of the actual name to avoid the tampering label.
“But if you have eaten the cake doesn’t that mean you had it at one point?”
breaking news: you actually can’t make a mountain out of molehill.
Mike R. – the other saying works exactly the same way…You can’t have your cake and eat it too….once you eat it you no longer have it…therefore you can’t have it and eat it to.
NO to Kuhn.
Yes to O’Malley. Sure, he ditched NYC, but you can also say that the CA move was great for the game. Plus, he would never have beaten Moses anyway. Too much power there.
Don’t know Dreyfuss or Southworth.
Williams was tremendous. Made the WS with three organizations and came oh so close with a fourth( Expos in 81)
Mike NYY – That’s correct you had it, then you ate it, hence no longer having it. You can do both, just not at once. Kinda like coughing and sneezing…but with cake…and having and eating…
“You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”
We’ve reached a low point here.
If you eat the cake you know longer have it. If you have it, you aren’t eating it.
OK?
“Let them eat cake.” Is a whole other thing.
Mike NYY – have and had are not the same thing
I for one like that Hank is active and not afraid to speak out. I wasn’t so thrilled when he bashed Torre on the way out, but he didn’t say anything untrue. I’d much rather have a guy like him then have to listen to then hear Cashman talk for 30 minutes straight without a breath and then realizing he just said absolutely nothing.
this is the Twins trying to get new leverage in the face of Pettitte’s return.
Pettite’s return, as the Twins well know, does not diminish the Yankees need for a #1 ace.
Good for Dick Williams, but Kuhn is a joke, O’Malley (the devil incarnate to many) is questionable at best and the omission of Miller makes the committe look like fools.
You are correct, but the reason that it is easier to understand with eat first is because the eating part is the one the excludes the having possibilty and not the other way. If you have a piece of cake you can still eat it, but if you eat it you can no longer have it.
To be or not to be? That is the question for Bill Smith.
I think that Hank speaking out can be a good tactical move in negotiations…but only to a point. He has to pick and choose his spots. It is not always the best strategy to let your “opponent” know what you are thinking at every step of the way.
I do not want to trade Hughes and seems like a lot of fans do not want that either. So my question is why not “upgrade” the offer and make it Cano and Horne/some other B prospect?
If the sox can play that game, so can the yankees.
Can someone tell me why Cano is definitely untouchable more so than Hughes.
My bad. Williams was fired late in the 81 season. Oops.
Actually Pete,
If you get the news that the Santana deal isn’t going to happen and it is past my bed hour, please wake me. My number is 888-bigsnyc.
If the deal goes through. Don’t bother. I will be switching to the Mets.
Pettitte’s return arguably buys the Yanks time to keep developing one of the two potential aces they have on the 40 man roster right now.
I recommend everyone read “The Lords of the Realm” by John Helyar. If you want to know about the business of baseball and owner/player relations this is a must read.
Miller will never get in, many blame him for the money that gets thrown around these days. He does indeed deserve it.
Kuhn was dolt.
K: The Yankees have a number of RHP prospects, but not a Cano-type in the pipeline.
Off Topic but that saying makes no sense
If I want my cake of course I also want to eat it. What do you do with your cake?
This saying is actually backwards. It’s supposed to be you want to eat your cake and have it too. Meaning that you still want your cake after you’ve already eaten it. Overstand?
Kwayry – Because Cano has PROVEN himself to be the best 2B in the AL over his two years with the Yanks big club. Hughes has PROVEN NOTHING at the big league level.
MikeNYY-
Anyone who’s from NYC area knows O’Malley didn’t do it to be a pioneer—I agree with you on that. But I suspect that for “everyone else” moving the Dodgers away from Brooklyn didn’t have the same emotional impact. By father-in-law was a die-hard Brooklyn Dodger fan and never forgave the team for leaving.
If the Yanks pull Hughes from the deal then Johan is a Red Sox…...you people who think pulling Hughes is feasible are not intelligent…...and you have to give to get…..all GM’s say that a good deal is one that hurts on both sides
Sometimes you grow the kids in order to trade them especially when most of the key Yanks in 08 are in their prime
“Can someone tell me why Cano is definitely untouchable more so than Hughes.”
because he is currently a better player and has a better chance of being a better player in the future?
I agree with the voters about Miller. He changed the game of baseball, and not for the good. He gave us Scott Boras and the most powerful player union in all of sports. He gave us the me-first, money-is-all-that-matters baseball player.
Basketball and football have a far more sensible system, with salary caps and genuine revenue sharing. Baseball is the anomaly that guarantees Kansas City and Pittsburgh will never be any good, thanks to Marvin Miller.
Mike R. didn’t see your post when I posted my response.
Cake talk is making me hungry.
Ray – I imagined as much. No problem. We’ve actually had a pretty funny conversation about the topic.
Because Horne is not an upgrade to Hughes. Hughes was widely regarded as the #1 prospect in baseball in 2005/6. Horne never had that distinction. Horne has good velocity with spotty control, whereas Hughes has good velocity and plus control. Big difference. There’s a reason why everyone asks for Hughes and not Horne. Teams’ scouts know the difference too. Horne and Melky will not do it.
It’s not just untouchable, Cano already is two years away from $10+ salary. Hughes is 6. The cost-conscious Twins want players with 2 or less years of MLB service. That’s not Cano.
Hank does not know how to keep his mouth shut!!! Speaking out a little bit is ok…but not as much as he did. All he had to say is Monday is the deadline, we want the player but we need to know by then. That is all!!! I bet Cash wanted to smack him over the head after hearing that the muzzle fell off. I am willing to bet that his comments cost the Yanks getting Santana.
http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/mlb/index
Look at the picture on the espn-mlb page. See any irony, there?
“Pettitte’s return arguably buys the Yanks time to keep developing one of the two potential aces they have on the 40 man roster right now.”
you would think so. but it won’t matter. the Yankees are going to trade Hughes for Santana. probably by tomorrow.
we need to make peace with it.
also, there are now 2 “Phil”’s here. might be confusing.
With the Twins obviously pissed at Hank, I don’t see them making a deal with the Yankees at this point.
Looks like Santana will be a Red sox.
hmmm,
He possibly meant Brackman?
1. Santana has NOT informed the Twins that he would only accept a trade to the Yankees or Red Sox.
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282
2. It’s good to see that people here have finally stopped with the delusion that Santana would not go to the Red Sox (for the record, he is a close friend of David Ortiz). Santana has expressed a preference to play on the east coast.
3. Finally, Santana has indicated an interest in the past in playing in the NL. why? cause then he can hit. look up Santana’s hitting stats in major-league play. you’ll understand why.
Look at the picture on the espn-mlb page. See any irony, there?
How the heck did they manage to make Santana look fat and Cabrera look thin????
you hear what you are supposed to hear.
Now you are making my hungry for cake.
“I am willing to bet that his comments cost the Yanks getting Santana.”
if the Twins prefer the Yankees’ players, do you really the Twins would cost themselves the best chance at improving their team b/c they are “mad” at what Hank said?
that would be pretty dumb, no?
Didn’t Hughes prove himself in the pressure cooker situation of the playoffs and he was the second best yankee pitcher after Andy?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Cano, I think he will be a clutch hitter for many years to come, but the question who is more valuable, Cano or Hughes?
To me, Hughes has the potential to be an Ace, sooner than later and those do not grow on trees.
What took Billy Southworth so long? He’s been dead longer than Stengel! It’s not like his credentials have changed between then and now.
I think if the Yankees offered Cano and were somewhat reasonable on the second prospect included the deal would get done…The Twins would def. want Cano over Hughes…
Actually the statement “Let them eat cake” refered to letting French people eat a lower priced form of bread (cake at that time), when there was a flour shortage and the poor couldn’t afford the better breads.
The statement means to let them have something less valuable.
Jennifer: watch the movie “Waitress” and you’ll be starved for pie.
Santana to the Yanks by late afternoon as the Yanks will sweeten the pot by adding Horne…
Git R done
It’s a shame about Marvin Miller not getting in yet. He doesn’t fit any established category (owner, player, manager, etc.) so it requires the voters to think too much outside the box I guess. But he’s a candidate for a special vote, like one of those Lifetime Achievement Oscars they give to an actor or director whose excellent work just keeps getting overlooked.
In fact, Miller and Curt Flood deserve the thanks of each player in today’s game, more so Miller, but don’t overlook Flood. Those two changed baseball forever, helping to take absolute power away from the moguls and share it with the guys who make the game come alive. At least people know about Miller and acknowledge his contributions. Unfortunately, Flood is largely forgotten.
Flood wasn’t quite HOF I guess, but some make a case for him: http://what-the-hall.info/index.shtml
It also seems that Flood wasn’t the easiest guy to love from what I’ve read, but his decision to sit out rather than be treated like a piece of furniture was a remarkable act of principle which receives little appreciation or mnention in the game today. It’s ironic that the unsuccessful lawsuit Flood brought to challenge the reserve system was brought by Flood against Kuhn, one of the latest HOF inductees.
There ought to be some way for MLB to recognize what Curt Flood did to wake up the game and the country to the basic unfairness of the old reserve clause and further to recognize his dignity in going about it.
Fine with me if the Red Sox give up Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, and 150 million dollars for Santana
Maybe we won’t have to hear about the “Little Engine that Could” anymore
“I am willing to bet that his comments cost the Yanks getting Santana.â€
Yeah! If they realy want to teach Hank a lesson they should hang on to Santana and let him reach free agency. That’ll teach him!!
Mike R.
Ding, ding, ding, you win the prize. Did you catch the body sizes?
How do we know the Twins are pissed?
Phil Hughes is gone everyone if you want Santana!!!
get over it
Santana will be 29 next yr and is in his prime…..he is a MONSTER and the Yanks need a #1 before the Red Sox win ANOTHER World Series title
Yes, but who in their right friggin’ mind would offer up Cano? He is untouchable.
There is a reason he and Chamberlain have NEVER been brought up by the Yankees as potential pieces to the trade. Because they are not idiots, and know what they have with Cano: An All-Star 2B
Pull the deal. Acquire an ace at the all-star break for cheaper. Boston will pull out if the Yanks do. Let the young studs develop.
“Didn’t Hughes prove himself in the pressure cooker situation of the playoffs and he was the second best yankee pitcher after Andy?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Cano, I think he will be a clutch hitter for many years to come, but the question who is more valuable, Cano or Hughes?”
yes IF Hughes fulfills his potential, he could be more valuable than Cano.
but it is still much more likely that Cano will be more valuable b/c he is ALREADY a star.
Cano has been a successful player for 3 years now. he’s DEFINITELY good. Hughes will probably be good.
trust me, i don’t want to trade Hughes either. but trading Cano would be beyond foolish.
I think the below quote from Marvin Miller pretty much says it all and why he was not elected this y ear.it is from the Associated Press article.Link is below and it also tells who how the committee is made up and how it chnaged
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/03/hof.election.ap/index.html
The 90-year-old Miller received only three votes from the 12-member Veterans Committee; he needed nine for induction.
The revolutionary executive director of the players association missed election by 10 votes earlier this year by a committee that included all living members of the Hall.
That panel was revamped after failing to elect anyone in three tries and replaced by one with a majority from baseball management—the same group Miller once fought for lucrative player benefits like free agency and salary arbitration.
“I think it was rigged, but not to keep me out. It was rigged to bring some of these in,” Miller said by telephone after being informed of the results by The Associated Press. “It’s not a pretty picture.”
“It’s demeaning, the whole thing, and I don’t mean just to me. It’s demeaning to the Hall and demeaning to the people in it,” he said.
Mel
That had to be Cabreras 8th grade graduation picture! Many years and many pounds ago but the same could be said about me.
The statement means to let them have something less valuable.
My understanding of that quote was that it represented the lack of understanding that Marie Antoinette had of the economical crisis that France was going through in her time. When she was confronted by an advisor that told her that her people did not even have bread she replied with “Then let them eat cake.”
So you think there’s something wrong with the entertainers making 60% of the revenues?
Football’s system is horrible. They have no guaranteed salaries and players get hurt and then cut all the time. Is that fair to the players?
Is there any other entertainment profession besides most sports where the entertainer is not allowed to make a wage in which the market decides their worth?
If someone values Hughes more than Cano, they are out of their minds.
Hughes has barely thrown 50 innings at the ML level. Cano was a couple votes short of being a 2 time all star.
Stop buying the hype, and look at the results. Hughes MIGHT be an ace SOMEDAY. Cano is an all star, and the best 2B in the AL right now.
O.K. Cake talk, something I’m an expert on.
What’s your favorite cake?
Mine is coconut.
I think Miguel Cabrera likes chocolate cake.
Cano is not in any of the deals…it is a moot point.
William Sonoma has a great lemon bunt cake.
Mike R.-
Marie Antoinette’s quote was,
“Why don’t they eat cake?”
I think Marie Antoinette said “let them eat cake” when she found out her subjects couldn’t afford to make bread. A flippant remark that broke the camel’s back in re sending her majesty to le guillotine (sp?).
We want our Phil and Cano, too.
Actually, we are saying that Cano is more valuable than Hughes AND Cabrera. I am not sure that’s correct.
True Cano is not part of any deal and maybe a moot point but we still get to discuss options, don’t we?
I like chocolate cake, and pretty much anything else revolving around chocolate, too.
PK is right but…
The yankees have been talking about the Franchise for so long now… It is odd how attached we all are to hughes….
Cano is what gives the yankees the chance to be a special offense… Getting his production out of second is unreal… i could only imagine what this offense could do if everyone stays healthy…
If we keep damon, i predict a big year from him…
Miller’s words in SI ring sadly true. Baseball is always going to be a little myopic, a little behind the times I guess. And the HOF system, especially the special and veterans committees over the years, have always been a little off kilter.
Peter’s gonna ban all cake talk soon.
“Why don’t they eat cake” = Yankees saying “Why don’t they just sign Santana.”
“Let them eat cake” = Yankees saying “Go ahead, take the two draft picks”
“You can’t have your cake and eat it too” = Yankees saying “We want Santana and Hughes.”
Anyone heard anymore about Loretta signing with the Yanks?
Marie Antoinette’s quote was,
“Why don’t they eat cake?â€
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marie_antoinette.html
So the banned list is now: religion, politics, Meg Ryan films, and cake?
I like the big cookie. Does that count as cake?
Hey Mel…how are you dealing with all the snow. I wanted to respond to a post you made on another thread, and to let you know I actually agree with you. You said something about Beckett being a pig and I don’t know that I can argue with you but the fact remains he is a dominant pitcher especially during the playoffs. I could be way off base but it almost seems that some of the very best pitchers have a ton of attitude that is part of their dominant stance on the mound. Seems that Clemens certainly had attitude during his best years and Pedro was famous for having a nasty side. It seems that Pettite is a genuinely nice guy but don’t you think that many of the best pitchers have that arrogant SOB attitude about them?
He’ll probably only ban talk about Angel’s and Devil’s food cake.
Mike R-
you Burned me,
I guess I’ll just have to put that in my cake and eat it.
Adam – I may not be in the top 10% on this board in baseball knowledge, but useless knowledge is my specialty.
My, we’re quite the quipsters today!
It really is difficult to wait when you just know something is going to happen. As long as it’s not the let-down that Boston gets Santana, that’s all.
Back to pre-holiday decorating cleaning!
“Baseball is the anomaly that guarantees Kansas City and Pittsburgh will never be any good, thanks to Marvin Miller.”
you wouldn’t get great restaurants where you live if the good ones shared their money with the bad ones. baseball is no different.
marvin miller helped get rights to players that they didn’t have before. ironically he was the one who advocated the 6 year rule for young players so there would not be too many free agents in any one year. otherwise all players would have been free agents unless they were under contract. he did this to keep salaries up. so he has had a hand in keeping sararies up, but it’s not in the way you think.
but whatever opinions someone has about free markets, miller championed personal player rights against the owners and it changed the game for the better.
Sometimes I think Peter must look at our comments and think, “What have I created.â€
His little blog empire can get carried away with topics like cake. Especially around lunch-time.
I’m going to lunch. I think I’ll have cake.
Apparently that Loretta rumor was just that – a rumor.
“Olney now says the Yanks don’t have any serious interest in Loretta, and haven’t spoken to him in over a month.”
If you’re an ESPN insider you can read the story using the link provided by MLBTR
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/yankees-not-clo.html
Adam – Dont you mean you’ll EAT cake. You can’t do both you know. LOL
I am such an @$$ hole.
Bill Smith? isn’t that a generic name like John Doe? He’s just melking, er, milking this for ink in the real media. But what really gets to me are 3 sports networks that carpet bomb hick burgs like mine w/99% football talk year round. Barely heard a peep about baseball over the wknd & this AM. NFL butt boys.
TG & the LoHud for this blog, saves the sanity of geezers like me with dial up & a Mac.
What scares me is that if the Yankees don’t get Santana, they’ll probably go after Haren. And quite frankly, I think Phil is a better pitcher than Haren.
All this crap about Hughes being over hyped is just that. In today’s world there are dozens of scouting publications and hundreds of scouting blogs covering these kids every day. They all say this kid is the real deal.
The only reason he does not become an ace is injury. NO-ONE is immuned to that, No-One, not even Santana. If they give up all this talent and he tears a rotator cuff, how do the Yankees recover from that?...If I were to take my chances here, I would rather keep the 3 promising kids over the one Ace who has over 900 innings on his left wing. I would love to add Santana but not at the cost of a kid who over the next 5 years will more than likely be a better option, at least in the back 3 of those 5 years.
I agree if we pull out of the Santana talks, than we should just pull out of the trade market all together. Go into the year with Hughes Kennedy and Joba. I think all 3 will do very well. No need to trade away youth to get a comparable pitcher.
If Santana gets injured, they’ll have insurance to recover the money and they’ll pay another pitcher.
Phil can’t be traded for Haren. if tyhat`s what it takes to get Haren and Bedard won’t go in-division then I might actually like the Santana deal
I’m disappointed…. no update from Pete in 25 minutes… slacker
OK so I didn’t read through every comment but I assume someone by now has posted the link to mlbtraderumors where LaVelle Neal reports that the Twins are butt hurt about Hank’s comments and even insinuates that they will consider tampering charges?!
Cry me a river Twinkies, Hank didn’t say anything that wasn’t true! In contrast to LaVelle Neal, who, in my 3 or 4 days of experience with him, has ONLY said things that turned out not to be true
Which is why I’m not gonna worry about this one quite yet!
Any inapproprite comments and myself, D-Day and Bluto will come and put a horse carcass in your home/office
“Fat , drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son”
If we walk away from the Santana deal.How about going for a high risk, high reward pitchers? Lets trade for Harden and Sheets(last month was rumored to be available). They would probably cost us minor league players plus Kennedy. We get two pitchers that are capable of being #1’s. We also trade for both so that we can hopefully have one standing in the end of the year.
One can also be used in setting up Mariano(Harden preferably).
These guys are injury prone, but the rewards and ability to shut down teams when healthy might be worth the risk.
I think Miller was a free market guy. He made owners pay for talent on a free-er market than they did under the reserve clause.
And that 6 year delay to free agency was good for both sides. Miller realized it would prevent the market from being flooded and therefore kept the initial generations of FA salaries up. But the owners also wanted to hold onto players for at least 6 years as a hedge against the acquisition and development costs of young talent.
ray,
LOL. I live in the tropics, but he do have snow sometimes.
Yes, Beckett’s a very good pitcher and of course I’d cheer for him if he were on the Yankees. But somehow I don’t think that he’d behave like a pig and use slang for female genitalia and drop f-bombs when asked about an ex-girlfriend if he were wearing pinstripes.
Not saying that Boston is like that, just saying that in general our guys don’t exhibit that kind of behavior publicly. Of course on the other side of the fence, they’ll say Beckett has passion and plays with fire while the Yankees are soft.
Where is Miller? Doesn’t his contact work for Johan’s agent? I HATE THIS!
Sean Taylors’ uncle is auditioning becuase espn is carrying this thing
Found this in the replies over at MLBtraderumors: Which way will it go?
http://tom.daymont.googlepages.com/santana.jpg
God he’s awful
i have brought this up before, tho i dont know if i ever have in the comments here….scrap santana….the price is a little too high….and forget Haren….talk to the orioles abt bedard….i know Pete doesnt think they will trade within thier division, but they are on record as liking many of the “second tier” minor league talent the yankees have and have a few gaping holes they will look to fill (rotation, closer, corner infielder, etc)....dangle a package of IPK, Farnsworth, possibly a guy like karstens or bruney, and a prospect and you prolly could get him….ask for a negotiating window for an extention (just like with santana) and offer the kid 3 years in the 6-8 mill a year range and see what happens….The O’s have been forward here abt not wanting to lose Bedard but if they cant work an extention, they are prepared to trade him while they think they can get the most for him…
They need to photoshop out his goatee on the Yankee side
what a crazy off-season.
I also agree that if we do end up pulling out of the Santana talks, we should wait on a #1 rather than trying to trade for Haren or Bedard immediately. Billy Beane is hoping to get someone to overpay for Haren out of disappointment in not getting Santana. Let’s not fall into his trap especially considering Haren will likely NOT be traded before next season, as he still has lots of time left on his contract and Beane won’t trade him unless he is blown away…and I can’t even imagine what it would take to blow him away, but I can imagine that no team will offer that much.
Ditto for Bedard. Now he might be traded in the offseason, but I think most GM’s would rather wait to see how he does without Mazzone. I know I would!
If we don’t get Santana we are still a contender next year with a rotation of Pettitte/Wang/Hughes/Joba/IPK and/or Moose. Don’t get carried away here Hank. Even if Santana gets traded it is still almost definite that at least one ace (be it Bedard or Sabathia via free agency or Haren in a trade) will be available after the 08 season. And if we wait on Haren, we may actually have to give up less for him since I expect that Hughes’ value will be a good deal higher after he shows the world an entire season of that droolworthy curve!
Wasn’t LaVelle whatevers the guy who made up something last week?
“dangle a package of IPK, Farnsworth, possibly a guy like karstens or bruney, and a prospect and you prolly could get him”
i don’t think that is enough.
Ladies and gentleman sexual chocolate
If we cant Get Jo(HanSolo)Tana, then we shouldt trade the big 3. With Andy back, our rotation is efinately good enough to make the playoffs. Ben Sheets would not make it better. Not this year, and definately not in years to come. Yes, he has a good whip against the pirates but come on. Even Baltimore will light him up.
this just happened at Sean Taylor’s funeral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajuATv5OSHU
i agree, marvin miller should be in the HOF…I dont think curt flood should be in, but marvin should.
From Espn.com:
1:08 p.m. ET • Buster Olney has heard whispers that the Twins might decide to hold onto Johan Santana. With a healthy Francisco Liriano alongside Santana in the rotation, that would be a fearsome 1-2 punch. If the Twins do some big things in ‘08, they could find a way to re-sign Santana. If not, they could move in July.
I think Billy Bean said he would require 2 of the big 3 for Haren. Is that worth it. Its not worth it for Jo(hansolo)tana, so you do the math.
Seymour,
With Andy’s announcement, that would be a wonderful scenario.
bedard will likely be more expensive to get in terms of talent.
and angelos is awful to deal with – and will be worse for the yankees. won’t have a lot of desire to trade inside the division. ask the angels how easy angelos is to deal with. he screwed that tejada deal up last year at the last minute.
bedard was a top 5 starter last year and is signed to a very resaonable contract for the next two years. just about every team in baseball can afford him and will bid for him.
no exorbitant contract, no trade clause, one year left on contract to use as leverage as the yankees have with santana.
also – bedard is an extraordinarily introverted guy. he doesn’t like talking to anyone in the media. he may be a realy bad fit for new york. i normally don’t put much into those types of things but bedard is really not a big city kind of guy. i could see him coming here for a lot of money and hating new york
to clarify above, “To have your cake and eat it too” is a misquote which is prevelant in today’s culture. It should be, “You can’t eat your cake and have it too.”
Walter O’Malley is quite controversial with New Yorkers but he is deserving of HOF induction. He is the first owner to break the color barrier bringing Jackie Robinson to Brooklyn, a monumental decision for MLB. He was a pioneer for bringing a baseball franchise to the West Coast – a huge financial impact for MLB.
I saw HBO’s “Ghosts of Flatbush”, what a wonderful documentary! The film footage was so nostalgic and the commentary very informative.
SoS27, I am definitely on the same page as you with Harden. He could be a reliever taking the occasional start to keep Joba, Ian (and maybe Phil now too!!) under their innings caps. I had been pondering Harden for a while although Pettitte’s return does slightly complicate my plans (in a good way, of course!!!) because now wouldn’t it seem that Moose would be the guy coming out of the pen in long relief and then taking the occasional start? It seems silly to keep him in the rotation when there’s a chance that Kennedy could be much better.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this? What does Pettitte’s return mean for Moose?
have meaning: Possess
if the reports are true the problem with waiting until July is that Santana has said that he will not accept a trade during the season and the Twins barganing position will be lessened
“1:08 p.m. ET • Buster Olney has heard whispers that the Twins might decide to hold onto Johan Santana. With a healthy Francisco Liriano alongside Santana in the rotation, that would be a fearsome 1-2 punch. If the Twins do some big things in ‘08, they could find a way to re-sign Santana. If not, they could move in July”.
Good maybe we can develop the big 3 now.
If we don’t get Santana, Hughes will not go to Oakland for Haren. Cashman was not in agreement with dealing Hughes.
Easy there James. Dude was murdered.
I just wish they’d extend him already. Enough is enough.
“That boy can sing!”
I LOVE that movie!
twins offer Johan 7 years $160 mil
i guess they can afford him now that Torii is gone..
well, looks like the yanks are the yanks..
and stuck with trying to get haren or sheets
Mel, yeah, recently (I think it was on Saturday) LaVelle had reported that Hughes and IPK were both in the proposed deal, and hours later it turned out not to be true. Not really too impressed with this guy’s “fearless reporting” so far…Pete could definitely take him to school!
The NY Times said last night that Beane needs to be blown away to trade Haren. He asked for Kennedy AND Hughes. Hank already said last night that Santana is the only pitcher that they would trade Hughes for. A deal with Beane is not happening. The Orioles will not trade Bedard to the Yanks, I guess unless they got blown away also, but Bedard already said he doesn’t want to pitch in NY so why trade young pitchers for him when he would leave in 2 years anyway.
murphydog and I was talking about his idiot uncle embarrassing himself and his family at the funeral with a god awful musical number not Sean Taylor
For what its worth – Hank said that they would only trade Hughes for Santana. Hughes would not be moved for another pitcher.
Without Hughes being traded they are not going to get haren or bedard. Pass.
Can anyone confirm the above post? Is it true the twins offered more?
Phil Hughes will not be in any offer for Harden. In fact, I doubt that Phil Hughes would be in any other offer except for Santana.
We can talk about pop culture right? You all know about Chocolate Rain, right? Here’s the Tay Zonday/Dr. Pepper “Cherry Chocolate Rain” video. Hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2×2W12A8Qow
She said them each brioche, by the way, not cake.
Brioche is bread with cheese mixed in, and was the bread of the upper classes of France. Marie Antoniette was saying this as a way to give the poor the bread of the rich if they could not get bread for themselves.
This is always misquoted.
In terms of Santana, I hope the Twins keep him. There is a decent chance that they will, give that their fan base will go nuts for anything less that 3 top tier prospects.
This allows the Yankees to see which of their big 3 turns out well (I say it’s going to be all 3). They then get Santana (or CC Sabathia) to replace Pettitte in 09.
As much as we all want Santana now, my guess is that this is where it is going.
twins offerred nothing. they remain the twins. fake post
i guess they can afford him now that Torii is gone..
well, looks like the yanks are the yanks..
and stuck with trying to get haren or sheets
I don’t buy it. It doesn’t make sense.
the rumors are false:
Santana’s agent has just confirmed that Santana has NOT prohibited the Twins from moving him during the season nor has he limited them only to the Red Sox or Yankees (like I told you before, he would like to play in the NL):
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2×2W12A8Qow
LMAO
“Buster Olney has heard whispers that the Twins might decide to hold onto Johan Santana.”
this would be great.
just remember, “we hear what we are supposed to hear”.
Johan doesn’t want to resign with the Twins even if they gave him his money (which they won’t). He can get his cake (money) and eat it to (win). He wants out of Minny.
I’m thinking that the decision to stand pat was made when they knew Andy was coming back a few days ago. Cashman might think they can be competitive with just Andy, Wang and the rooks this season if they can score 960+ runs again.
It would be risky, especially wioth all the cash they invested because Po, Mo and ARod all returned knowing the team would do whatever it takes to be competetive in 08.
I guess it doesn’t matter if Boston wins by 13 games or by one game as long as the Yanks make the playoffs we can be treated to another first round debacle because of a lack of a front line starter and fewer innings from starters.
Either way, Hank is laying himself on the line and protecting Cashman (by being the face of the team and issuing the deadline) in case it doesn’t swing their way, which is what good bosses do. Cashman probably wants to focus on filling the pen (because of the rooks and their inning counts)or possibly finding a CFer during the next few days and this Santana business is taking up too much brainpower. The media will destroy Hank while laying off Cashman and if I was Hank, that’s what I would do, take the heat off my peeps. Either way, I’ll see them in March down in Tampa.
Hi Pete,
First time post. Glad to have you back, I can’t wait to hear what else you hear out in Nashville today. I might be in the minority in this but I say that with Andy coming back that we keep Joba in the pen for 08. To be able to shorten a game to 6 innings (and keep it close) versus getting 6 solid innings only to give up the lead late (with a crap shoot bullpen) is the wrong approach. Our rotation currently can get us to the 6th inning and keep our offense in the game. If Santana comes to NY then I will feel even more strongly about this. Can you imagine Santana for 6/7 innings, Joba 1/2 innings, and close it with Mo? With our offense that is as close to an automoatc W as you can get. Include the same formula for Wang, Andy, Hughes, and IPK/Mussina and we would be in good shape. Joba is ony 21 as well. One year more in the pen will not hurt his development. That’s my take. Thanks for the great work man!
Twinsfan—
Funny how two different people could read the same article two different ways. I read it and I took that Greenberg says he has not limited the Twins to just the Sox and Yanks.HOWEVER, he gave a no comment when it came to a trade during the season saying that was a long way off.Not a ringing endorsement of accepting a trade during the season
Damn figured as much!
Hopefully we can find an n.l. team like the phillies to take him.Its not as much his performance(which hasnt been good),but his throwing others under the bus when he losing. His staring down his own teamates when they make an error.His act is old and his fastball is only getting slower.
That would put Kennedy in the 5 spot and maybe Karstens as long relief.
I like the idea of Harden getting in to rest any of the big 3. Maybe have him rotate in with those guys every third start. That keeps the young guys fresh for the playoff run.
Sheets would also be great to have on the staff if healthy.
1.petttite
2.wang
3.hughes
4 joba
5.sheets
A staff that could get us back to the promise land and notch #27.
Trade Hughes, Melky and Marie Antoinette for Santana and let them eat cake….
dat’s what I tink!
Let’s say for the sake of discussion the Yankees get Santana for Hughes, Melky, etc.
What other big pitching moves do you think the Yanks would make?
A package around Kennedy for Bedard or Haren?
Try and deal for some relief pitching?
They have interest in signing Dotel, and hoping can maybe deal Farnsworthless to an NL team for um anyone
Any thoughts?
alright.
i know we got off on the wrong foot last night..
but i just had a quick question..
petitte resigned.. which is a nice signing..
just wondering how that gives the yanks leverage..
does that signing mean the yanks are willing to offer less for johan? since they got a lefty now.
or does it mean the yanks have a veteran pitcher so perhaps the twins have the leverage and the twins might be able to get a better pitching prospect to go with hughes and melky
“Miller realized it would prevent the market from being flooded and therefore kept the initial generations of FA salaries up”
murpheydog-
it’s just interesting that most people think that miller created rights and freedoms for players and don’t know that he advocated market limitations on young players.
i agree it was an interesting compromise with owners liking the idea of controlling players for 6 years.
just think if hughes or chamberlain were free agents? what would they get? they’d obviously get a lot more than they are getting now, but ,santana because there would be so many more pitchers on the market ,would be getting less.
so the rules now take money from young players and give it to veteran players. i know if i were a young pitcher one pitch away from being a ups driver, i wouldn’t like that system. some young pitcher in the spirit of curt flood will challenge it in court someday by holding out.
Also,
I would do a Cano deal rather than Hughes. 1st because 2nd base is not a power position, nor do we have a need for power. We do have a need for defense and there are several players (e.g) Loretta that can fill in nicely at 2b. People were up in arms when we gave up Soriano (once in a lifetime all star 2B) for Arod and we have done just fine. To be able to land an starter of Santana’s magnitude would have a far greater impact than having Cano. Don’t get me wrong, I love Robbie, but finding qualtiy pitching in NY is harder to come by.
Santana’s agent has just confirmed that Santana has NOT prohibited the Twins from moving him during the season nor has he limited them only to the Red Sox or Yankees (like I told you before, he would like to play in the NL):
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282
I have only read La Velle E. Neal III’s columns recently, eith all the trade hoopla. I have to say I am very unimpressed. He has been off many times and sounds like he is stating speculation rather than fact many times. Just my opinion.
All the better if Santana stays. I don’t see them being that dumb but who knows.
They keep Hughes to even start the season and he’ll do very well. His value will sky rocket again. Twins won’t get him once the season starts.
Yeah the rumors of the Twins offering Sanatna don’t have the ring of truth to me, especially because aren’t they working on a big extension for Morneau? Although I wouldn’t choose Morneau over Santana if I were a GM, if the Morneau rumors are true, it looks like they’ve made their choice.
La Velle E. Neal III is bucking for peter gammon’s job lol
Minnysota
A prime negotiating position is the ability to walk away (or the other side perceieving you can walk away).
Pettitte’s return give the Yanks a greater ability to walk away. That’s the leverage the Yanks gain.
I think the whole “the Twins will hold on to him” is the Twins want to see from now until tonight which team will jump and sweeten the pot after they hear that. The dog and pony show continues…Or for some reason they are holding Santana on too high a pedestal and they thought they can get more then a #1 prospect like Hughes. Like some articles say they want Kennedy also basically asking for way too much and over playing what the Yanks have already offered since the offer on the table is exactly what they asked for.
The only way Andy gives the Yankees leverage they are less desperate than before to add a veteran, a lefty and a big game pitcher so they have to ask themselves how much do they bluff
OK with Pettitte back I hope we don’t loose hughes even for santana I would even hope that we can keep Melky, in other words I hope Santana stays with the Twins. With Pettitte back we don’t need an other starter, Hughes showed as he can “pitch” in the playoffs!
... and reporting an offer to Santana would increase the belief the Twins could walk away … strengthening their negotiating position.
The threat to hold on to Santana is the twins last little wisp of leverage.
The yanks and sox are fed up with this.
The twins are in a tough position – they’ve been public about getting 3 high ceiling, ready to play young players. Neither the yanks or sox have offered that and doesn’t look like they will.
They either lose some face with their fans or the capitulate so they don’t get stuck with draft picks.
Minny, mulligans are allowed! Ditto from me. I think that it is the Yankees who have more leverage now. They still will have to deal Hughes to get Santana, but I think that now they can argue that they don’t “need” Santana. They have Andy and Wang who can eat the innings for the kids and Moose can be the long reliever.
Your thoughts about Greenberg stating that Johan has not limited his trade options?
Never saw cherry chocolate rain before. The worlds a different more disturbing place now
How about their owner opens his walet up and pays the best pitcher in baseball. He has the money! Why doesn’t he take the money the Yankees give him, to pay Johan.
mmmmm, I just had some cake.
If the Twins keep Santana, their fans better get used to $8 Hotdogs, $12 Beers, and $60 nose bleed seats.
Just like Yankees fans have.
Let the Twins resign him. That will be a first for that organization. Then their fans can quit their crying about payroll disparity when they have an extremely wealthy owner who refuses to ante up.
I would much prefer the Yanks hold onto their chips and move ahead with a six man rotation that includes all three of the kids.
It would necessitate a long man in the bullpen but the yanks could easily put Karstens or Rasner out there to eat a few innings a few days a week.
Mike R. and others:
La Velle was the first to break the Delmon Young trade.
more importantly, he is reporting directly what Santana’s agent told him. not an anonymous support. it’s a credited, quoted statement. if he lied about that he’d be fired…
there’s a difference between dumb speculation (which he sometimes does) and quoting a NAMED source.
jashell2000:
Right now, Cano is more important than Hughes to the Yankee Organization. He’s got great potential as a middle infielder – both offensively and defensively, and he’s 24 yrs old. There is no one in the current Yankee organization with the talent to replace him. There may or may not be for Hughes, but the Yankee strength is young righthanded pitchers right now.
Cano played shortsop and third base in the Minors and may develop into a starter at either postion somewhere down the road as the current Team ages.
Does anyone know where to find the wealth of all the owners. I’m curious to know how many owners are richer than George.
If I’m the Yankees, I’m in front of Billy Beane right now offering him IPK, Austin Jackson, Horne and a lower level player for Haren.
If you get him to agree to Haren, pull out of Johan sweepstakes and keep Hughes and Melky.
Then with the Yankees out of the Johan derby, Boston pulls out and finally shows their hand. They just want to keep him off the Yankees.
Then sign Johan as a FA next year and have him, Haren, Hughes, Joba, Wang in the rotation.
If there’s a way to get Haren w/o giving up Joba, Hughes or Melky, I make the trade and walk away from Johan.
g. love
its been reported that beane is going to ask for the same players as the twins are..
cept, in my opinion..
i think minnesota should accept the yanks deal.. hughes/melky/prospect
if that would get offered up for haren.. i guarentee the A’s jump all over it
James,
um, Santana is quite happy in MN. he’ll stay if they make him a long-term offer at close to market value. (his contract issue with MN is over the length of the deal, not the money per se.)
Gayle: the point was that it was falsely reported yesterday that Santana had told the Twins that he would not accept a trade during the season. instead Greenberg said that Santana hadn’t told the Twins anything on that subject. (it doesn’t mean that he would accept a trade during the season, but it doesn’t mean that he won’t.)
for one thing, Santana isn’t looking to hurt the Twins. he’s not going to lower their leverage.
“I would do a Cano deal rather than Hughes. 1st because 2nd base is not a power position, nor do we have a need for power.”
just stop. please?
finally, you’re smoking serious dope if you think that Beane would take Kennedy as the centerpiece of a Haren deal (just like anyone who thinks he would be the centerpiece of a Santana deal).
Kennedy projects as a fourth starter. both Smith and Beane are sitting on loads of young pitching in that category.