Pettitte to return to Yankees
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- December
- 3
Less than a week after Jorge Posada and his father both said he was leaning to retirement, Andy Pettitte changed his mind and decided to pitch for the Yankees in 2008.
Details are still coming in, but it is believed Pettitte will pitch for the $16 million that was his original contract option.
Pettitte was 15-9, 4.05 last season and had a brilliant start in Game 2 of the ALDS.
The Yankees remain interested in Minnesota lefty Johan Santana, knowing that Mike Mussina and Pettitte could be gone after next season. But Pettitte’s return would lessen the sting of not landing Santana.
Pettitte’s return was first reported by the Houston Chronicle. Agent Randy Hendricks confirmed the story this morning.
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on Monday, December 3rd, 2007 at 9:41 am by Peter Abraham.
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Yes!! Good news to hear!
Guess this week’s Sunday call from Jorge must have been a good one
Pete, once again on the cutting edge!
Yesssssss!!!
YES YES YES YES!!!!
NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron H, if by cutting edge you mean something that was in this mornings Houston Chronicle.
This is the best news we could have heard today. Thank goodness.
I said from the outset that Pettitte returning was the key to the off season.
If we get Johan and pair him with Pettitte, Joba, Wang and IPK, this will be the best Yankee rotation we have seen in many many years folks.
Great news and welcome back Andy!
great news.. made my monday morning a great one.
This is exactly the sort of leverage the Yankees needed going into the Winter Meetings. Even if we miss out on Santana, we could still get a good deal for Dan Haren, now that the whole “desperation factor” is no longer working against us.
Oh, and of course, it’s just plain good to have Andy back
GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!! made my monday!
Whoo-hoo!
I just posted in a previous thread (sometimes I seem to find myself in the wrong thread after I post) so I’m re-posting in the relevant thread. I think.
***********************
Does Pettitte’s return mean NY keeps Hughes in the Santana offer? If not, go for Haren instead?
How does our 5 of 6 rotation …
Wang, Santana, Pettitte, Moose, Chamberlain, Kennedy – or – Wang, Haren, Pettitte, Moose, Chamberlain, Hughes
Match up against the Sox 5 of 6 …
Beckett, Haren, Matsuzaka, Schilling, Buckholz, Wakefield – or – Beckett, Santana, Matsuzaka, Schilling, Lester, Wakefield
Just tossing it out there to see who thinks which would be better …
I’m assuming Moose gets the nod for the rotation out of spring training unless/until he has another noticeable decline in his abilities for any length of time, then one of the lads would get the call.
Unless Joba’s got a chance of being the 8th inning guy again, despite being slotted for the rotation all along.
So after this upcoming season, if Pettite and Moose are gone:
Santana
Wang
Chamberlain
Kennedy
Horne?
What a way to start a Monday! This is INCREDIBLE news.
Thanks, Pete! And thank you Andy for coming back, I had been holding out hope that you would.
Let’s not speculate on 2009 until our 2008 rotation is set in stone, lol
SWO: why? so we can “concentrate” on 2008?
lefty BABY ! A TRUE WARRIOR NOT LIKE ALL THE IMPOSTERS WEVE HAD THE LAST 7 YEARS
INCREDIBLE NEWS!!!!!!!!
screw it, pull Hughes off the table. offer them the Kennedy package.
if the Yankees pull Hughes off the table, the Sox will pull Ellsbury back.
the Twins might just keep Johan at that point.
Well, Pete’s post makes it official. lol. Thanks, Pete.
This makes the Santana/Hughes thingy a win-win situtation. We get Santana, win! Hughes stays, win! Either way Andy solidifies the rotation.
With the Sawx at the table still (posturing or not) you don’t reduce or remove your offer. Hank (wisely or not) included a deadline with this offer and if they have any hope of future negotiations with anyone being legit, they have to follow through here or else no one will take Hank or Cashman seriously again.
Phil – It was a joke. It’s just because we have no idea whether or not we’re getting Santana. It’s like the people last offseason that were predicting our future rotations and included Daisuke Matsuzaka in them. Whoops.
Oh my god!
That’s a fantastic news.
And let’s get Santana.
I love Andy~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Okay, I wake up and this is the first news I see?
Wow, do I love my life right now!
Speculation is part of the fun of being a fan.
I can’t see it changing the offer made for Santana. Unless Santana has communicated his desires to be a Yankee to both the Yankees and the Twins. At that point – aside from all the tampering problems it could cause, the deal for Santana would be changed to Kennedy, IMO.
I wonder if Joe T will show up at the meetings this week. It will be very interesting to see since he never showed up when he was manager of the Yankees.
Seriously so much can change between 2008 and 2009, it is way to early to speculate. Heck we could have a rotation of Santana, Sabathia, Joba, Brackman and Kennedy for all we know. Let’s focus on 08. This great news was totally unexpected. I wonder if Andy was feeling the pressure, knowing the Yankees are close to getting a new young lefty. He wanted to take the offer before the Yankees rescind it.
I would think a package of Kennedy and Melky and prospects would be better than a package of Ellsbury and prospects (all of which are worse than Yanks’ prospects). So unless the Red Sox offer Ellsbury AND Lester, they don’t have a chance. That’s just my opinion.
Melky has 2 years under his belt, and he’s shown what he can do. Ellsbury still has to be considered a prospect, despite the multitudes of hype that ESPN and Peter Gammons have thrown on him.
Andrew, being that you are so certain there is no God, then prove it. Otherwise, STFU.
Early reports say Oakland wants Hughes + Kennedy for Haren.
That’s understandable because Haren is cost-controlled, and will have more teams involved in the negotiations.
Nice of Andy to anounce this now, to help the Yankees not over reach for Santana. He is a class act all the way….
Not a bad way to start off the winter meetings..
Wonder if anythign else happens today.. I wonder fi that deadline is set in stone, or if theres some wiggle room..
Who knows, by this time tomorrow we could have Santana on our rotation, or we could all be sitting here talking about who to offer for Dan Haren..
cash and hank have got to at least re-think the offer for santana now that andy is back. even if you end up still offering hughes, and i’m not advocating that, you have to reconsider your options. can you in fact get dan haren for ian kennedy and a couple of prospects?
Oh, and for the record, G-d definitley exists.
We have a love-hate relationship.
“He wanted to take the offer before the Yankees rescind it.”
I sincerely doubt that. The Yankees would not pull back their offer to Pettitte, no reason to.
I hope that the deadline comes and goes and that the Yankees put a new offer of IPK, Melky, and prospect(s).
Jeff, I’m not sure if you were joking about this or not, but there’s no way that the Yankees would pull Pettitte’s offer. That would be a slap in the face, and there would be no reason to do it. Even if we had already gotten Santana, Pettitte would have been a welcome addition to the rotation.
I think that pressure keeps mounting on Bill Smith. First the Rosenthal report that Santana would not waive his No-trade during the season, next the Hank deadline and now the news of a Pettite return. The guy (Smith) can not be having a pleasant morning.
We absolutely do not need Santana.
Forget about it.
Tell Minnesota where they can stick their deal.
1) Haren——————1) Santana
2) Wang———————2) Beckett
3) Joba———————3) Matsuzaka
4) Phil———————4) Schilling
5) Andy———————5) Lester
That`s at least pretty close.
Jeff: “Let’s focus on 2008 first.” You do realize the board has zero to do with personnel decisions, don’t you? I have no need to “focus” on 2008.
Please, no talk about religion or politics.
It’s so good to have Pettitte back for another season. He can make a great lefty one-two punch in the rotation with another lefty that we MIGHT get sometime very soon. By the way, I was referring to Johan Santana, not Kei Igawa.
Haren isn’t cheaper.
We will not pursue him.
“Please, no talk about religion or politics.”
for god’s sake!
They would not rescind the offer, the players and manager were very actively recruiting Andy.
Smith is having a great morning, regardless of Pettite’s announcement. Either way, he gets a lot more for Santana than he would at the end of next season if he doesn’t trade him and takes the draft picks.
Can the theological debate, that’s ridiculous. Stick to baseball or, on occasion, Pete’s music tastes.
This is fantastic news, I really thought he was gone. This makes me feel much better about our season, Santana or no.
Phil – some fans just don’t want to get their hopes up too high, to have them come crashing down. That’s why we don’t want to speculate just yet. Not until the Santana deal is done, at the very least. It’s a tense time for a lot of fans, that’s all.
Mike NYY, that’s assuming we’d get Haren without giving up Hughes. I just don’t see how that’s possible since the Haren market will, in all likelihood, be more demanding than the Santana market because more teams can afford Haren. I really hope we can get Santana and don’t have to get in on the Haren bidding. Haren is not as good as Santana and will likely cost more.
Why do people think it would be easy to acquire Haren? The A’s are going to ask for just as much as the Twins, given Haren’s contract status.
The Yankees still won’t walk away from Johan..
A rotation of
Santana
Wang
Pettitte
Joba
Ian, Moose, etc
Thats very pretty.
Even with the question mark of Santana I would say the Yanks have had a pretty darn good offseason so far:
Retain catcher – CHECK
Retain best closer in baseball – CHECK
Rtain best player in baseball – CHECK
Retain/convinve Andy to play another year – CHECK
Retain darn good bu catcher – CATCH
IMO get Girardi – CHECK
I really don’t think the Pettitte announcement makes a difference in the Santana negotiations. Pettitte is only in NY for one more year.
The only way it impacts this is if the Twins pull Santana off the block and keep him. Then the Yankees have Andy as a stopgap until Santana reaches free agency.
Mike NYY- Save the Big Three
December 3rd, 2007 at 9:58 am
1) Haren————1) Santana
2) Wang————–2) Beckett
3) Joba————–3) Matsuzaka
4) Phil————–4) Schilling
5) Andy————–5) Lester
That`s at least pretty close.
I think that their top 2 would be stronger, but our bottom three would take their’s. I agree it is close to say the least.
AWESOME NEWS! Andy brings class, the tremendous work ethic, a ton of quality starts from the left side, and is a guy other teams do NOT want to face in October.
My Dad had an interesting idea last night: would the Yanks consider a 6 man rotation?
Limiting innings could be good for the 35+ year olds, and also for the 22 and younger crowd—all with an eye to October (not sure about Wang or, if he’s here, Santana—though it appears both could have benefitted from some additional arm strength in Sept/Oct).
Is a 6 man rotation ever done, or just a bad idea?
Josh,
I knew I left out something.
Can we refrain from talking about religion, politics, and Springsteen?
So Torre left, but in the end, the Yanks got back every one of their major FAs, including the big home-grown 3.
Can somebody tell me again how Torre’s departure was going to wreck the Yanks ability to bring-in talent?
Can we stop arguing the existence of God on a Yankee message board!
Why are so many convinced that the Yankees were the LAST to know that Pettitte was indeed returning? I am sure he was talking to them long before the word got out.
Think of the timing of all the different announcements, folks.
1. Santana won’t allow a trade during the season (takes away Twins leverage a little)
2. Santana reportedly says its either the Yankees or the Red Sox.
3. Hank says enough – the deal is out there, either take it or the RS offer, but no more games.
4. Pettitte announcing his return.
The only sweeter thing would have been if Johan said the only team he will go to would be the Yankees, but no player would ever state that as it gives up their bargaining power.
Jeff: “Let’s focus on 2008 first.” You do realize the board has zero to do with personnel decisions, don’t you? I have no need to “focus” on 2008.
So you think…..
Didn’t the Mariners coaches actually read a post on a blog about Felix Hernandez’s mechanics that they themselves hadn’t noticed?
Sooooooo, you never know. Let me live in my happy fantasy world in which Brian Cashman offers up eevery trade proposal we make on this blog.
Mike NYY –
If Haren’s in the Yankees’ rotation, then Phil will not be, at least according to what the A’s want from the Yankees. I really think that with Pettitte coming back, the Yankees do not need to be trading their top pitching prospects for Haren. Santana, yes; Haren, no. And there will be more teams vying for Haren, so I doubt the requests for IPK and Hughes will change for the better.
Last season it appeared someone above was rooting for the Indians after sending the midges from the lake to attack Joba.
1) Santana————1) Beckett
2) Wang————–2) Ben sheet
3) Andy————–3) Matsuzaka
4) MOOSE————–4) Schilling
5) Joba————–5) Lester
Let’s go Yankees.
Imagine the possibilities…. for 2008
Santana Pettitte Santana
Wang Wang Wang
Pettitte Hughes Pettitte
Chamberlain Chamberlain Chamberlain
Kennedy/ Moose Kennedy/ Moose Hughes
And yes, I shouldn’t be thinking of 2009 already… but the possibilities are endless. For one…..
Santana
Wang
Sabathia
Chamberlain
Kennedy/ Hughes
Welcome back Andy!!
People who think the Yankees will get Haren without giving up Hughes are smoking something that I want.
Gayle,
That’s a lot of checks with a lot of zeroes.
gayle – Excellent post. So many people forget that the Yankees had enormous question marks going into this offseason. Yet before the Winter Meetings, the Yankees are already primed to compete next season.
i wish that was true
YAYYYYYYYYY. Now I hope the Yankees tell the Twinkies to enjoy Crispy Critter. LOL!
Can we refrain from talking about religion, politics, and Springsteen?
May we discuss Ozzy Osbourne?
Andrew-
To bad dumb people like you exist.
But glad to have Pettitte Back.Even if the Red Sox got Haren Petitte and Santana would be sick.
Tracks 1, 2, 6, and 7 off of Springsteen’s Magic CD are great!
(I hear God still listens to Sinatra…in person.)
Bedard then instead of Haren? I`m not sure Haren would cost Hughes. Kennedy, Jackson, and a lower prospect might be enough.
Let’s go Yankees.
Do you think that Moose is a better option than Kennedy next year? Not trying to be an @$$, it’s an honest question.
A-Point—
I haven’t seen anyone post that they thought the Yankees were the last to know about Andy. I always assume that since it’s in the papers, the person reading is among the last to know.
If people start arguing about religion and/or politics on this blog, I’ll delete every single post. That is not the direction we’re going, trust me on that.
Baseballl, pop culture, other sports from time to time. Not religion and politics.
Edit button needed!! 3 possibilites for 2008
1) Santana
Wang
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Kennedy/ Moose
2) Pettitte
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Moose/ Kennedy
3) Santana
Wang
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Hughes
The God of this Blog has spoken!
the Yankees will still pursue Santana, but i think the Pettitte news means they won’t pursue Haren.
Pettitte is fairly comparable to Haren.
Haren is not worth the price.
i am against trading Hughes, but i can at least see that Santana is worth trading for.
Save Phil Hughes.
Thrilled Andy will be back.
Great News about Pet!
I’m not playing games with Beane, he is asking more than the Twinkies just to start negotiations.
“Billy Beane is happy to field offers on Dan Haren and Joe Blanton, but he’ll require a king’s ransom for either pitcher. Jayson Stark says Beane asked the Yankees for two of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, and Ian Kennedy for Haren. ”
Forget it, I’d take Santana over Haren any day!
Again, that is great news about Pet, but weird timing.. maybe it’s just a coincidence but in the mix of all this Santana stuff, Pet changes his mind before the result?
ANyway I am not complaining. WB Andy!
Hopefully the Twins will like this “best offer” that the Yankees have made. Getting Santana would eliminate the Yankees from the Dan Haren sweepstakes, which is fine. They would have more than enough pitching depth, hopefully. It’s no easy task dealing with Oakland. Mr. Beane is a smart guy, and from what I have heard, a much better negotiator than Mr. Bean.
Andrew, that is entirely up to God, not us.
SAndMan, there is no guarantee that the Sox will go after Haren if they don’t get Santana. Its not like there is a pressing need for another starting pitcher for them. They have 6 right now. I doubt they make much of a look there, as it will cost too much, and if the Yankees get Santana because the RS weren’t willing to part with certain players, then they aren’t going to get Haren for those same players.
“Baseballl, pop culture, other sports from time to time. Not religion and politics.”
AMEN! Pete, you are a Godsend. this post is like my prayers being answered. Thank God you are here.
J-Dawg – But I doubt Billy Beane could take off his underwear without taking his pants off. That’s something only Mr. Bean can do, and something Mr. Beane can only wish he can do.
Please please please don’t trade for Santana. Make the Twins keep him, let him become a free agent next year, then throw Giambi’a, Pettite’s, and Moose’s money at him!
If we make the deal for Johan, anyone else think the next announcement is Joba is back to the pen? With 6 SP’s for 5 spots, I can see it happening.
It’s a win now team for next year with Joba in 8th all season in front of Mo and Johan, Andy, Wang, Mussina, IPK in the rotation.
All of us would rather see IPK on the mound than Andy, but the reality is that Moose is getting paid and he’s a veteran. I have no doubt that this team will embrace Joe G., but somehow I think that Moose/Joe G. dynamic will be the one to watch. Moose is a little curmudgeony and depending on how many bodies we have, his role will be in flux. Not saying there would be a problem, but it’s certainly possible.
They should pull Phil Hughes out of the Santana deal right now. Put the Kennedy deal back on the table.
Nice Work, Pete. Thanks for the update.
Very fortuitous too. It enhances the Yankees’ leverage with the Twins. I bet Hank played his part in the timing of this announcement as well.
Pete,
Re: your religion/politics dictum.
What if your religion is the Yankees?
Haren is not worth the price.
Well said hmmmmmmmmm
We are not getting bedard, we are in the same division… Teams rarely trade talented players within the division.
Haren will be very expensive, because there is no money issues, there is a much higher demand..
I agree. When Pettitte originally opted out didn’t he mention the 40 Man? Maybe it was all done so that the Yankees would have an extra roster spot. Sort of a gentleman’s agreement.
So on this blog we can’t talk about religion, politics, or the ins and outs of hyperlink coding.
This is my kind of place. If we can put American Idol, Survivor and Meg Ryan movies on the banned list, I may never leave.
Also, another season of having Andy takk to our young pitchers is a nice intangable..
Experience speaks volumes, I think.
great start to winter meetings
Doreen, the point about the Yankees knowing Andy’s decision earlier means that they knew they could put up a deadline and not get burned by it. Andy’s return coming out on the same day of the deadline is no coincidence, and I really doubt that Santana’s words were either.
Is it tampering if some players talk and pass along messages from others? How would it be proven? I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Santana has ties to Yankee players.
Lets hope hank wants to be bold, pull highes out of the deal and tell them they can have kennedy, melky, and tabata.
For some of us baseball is religon lol. Also I agree with G Love if we get Santana might the Yankees consider keeping JOba in the pen for another year it solves the 8th inning that is for sure. I am not baseball knowledgable enough to know how that effects his growth in term of starting ie innings etc etc but it certainly seems to be an idea wih merit
The Yankees still need a unquestioned #1 – and that’s Santana. The return of Pettitte solidifies the rotation, but the Yankees should still pursue Santana.
normally i hate it when abraham gets dictatorial on this blog, but that was d@mn funny.
“If people start arguing about religion and/or politics on this blog, I’ll delete every single post. ”
Billy,
What’s wrong with Sleepless in Seattle and When Harry Met Sally? They’re chick flicks, but Billy Crystal played an NBA ref and there was the fake orgasm in the diner scene.
GET ME SANTANA.
Seriously, I often feel like my true religion is Yankeeism.
Anyway, to answer a few other posters, no I wasn’t kidding when I said that Andy felt pressure or the Yankees might rescind it. I am not convinced that is right, but it is a thought that may have something to it. Bottom line is something prompted Andy to decide yesterday and announce today. Maybe he is doing it to put the pressure on the Twins and help his team get this deal done, that would be noble.
Either way, the 2008 team looks to be improved over 2007 even though we haven’t signed one free agent or made one free agent signing. That’s the beuaty of counting on young player’s improvement. I am optimistic Girardi will help though.
PK – if, as you say, early reports say Oakland wants Hughes + Kennedy for Haren then fine.
If NY still goes for Santana, whether with Hughes or backing off to Kennedy, then maybe Boston would have to up their ante to at least 2 of Smellsbury, Laptop and Uncle Fester for either a Santana deal with the Twinkies, or a Haren deal with Billy Bibbit.
Some info on Joba as a starter per Keith Law….
The Yankees have issued a long list of untouchables—just as they did in July trade talks—but Joba Chamberlain clearly tops the list. Best known to casual fans as a dominant reliever and a favorite target of midges, Chamberlain also projects as a No. 1 starter should the Yankees follow through on their plans to return him to the rotation. He has a plus fastball up to 98 and holds his velocity deep into games, with an excellent slider. His curve and changeup are projected to be average pitches.
Put the same Hughes-less offer (Kennedy/Tabata/Horne?) on the table for Oakland, Minnesota and Baltimore (and I guess Cleveland, just in case) and see who jumps first.
edit button “even though we haven’t signed one free agent or made one trade”
People, say it with me.. NO JOBA TO THE PEN!
We do not waste his talents in a set-up role. We put him in a position where he can give us the most innings. When you think of Joba, think Verlander and Liriano, NOT Broxton.
So does Andy=Johan? Obviously not, I say pull the offer of Hughes & sub in Kennedy. The Red Sox will walk if the Yankees pull out. The Yanks have some new leverage. They should really use it.
Thank you Andy man!!!!
Woke up this morning to the great new england storm but my school REFUSES to ever cancel classes…thought this was going to be a crappy day but things sure are looking up.
Pull Hughes.
Like they say in business, “Things changed.”
I agree with Pete. If you want to talk politics, go to The Neo-Con Fascist 38Pitches.com’s website.
“Maybe it was all done so that the Yankees would have an extra roster spot. Sort of a gentleman’s agreement.”
if that’s the case, Sean Henn owes Pettitte a steak dinner.
And Do Not put Joba in the ‘pen.
Would you have put a young Roger Clemens in the ‘pen?
Mel –
No good reason, just can’t take her movies. In other words, a totally random reaction based on no special knowledge which leads me to make decisions without a valid reason.
I think that qualifies me to run the Knicks.
What’s wrong with Sleepless in Seattle and When Harry Met Sally? They’re chick flicks, but Billy Crystal played an NBA ref and there was the fake orgasm in the diner scene.
Actually, Billy Crystal played a NBA ref in Forget Paris not Sleepless in Seattle – that was a Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan flick.
Same offer should still stand, Hughes, Melky, Gonzalez and a low level scrub. I think the the fact that Andy is back makes this trade even more digestable for the Yankees, we can withstand Hughes’ loss better.
“Limiting innings could be good for the 35+ year olds, and also for the 22 and younger crowd — all with an eye to October (not sure about Wang or, if he’s here, Santana — though it appears both could have benefitted from some additional arm strength in Sept/Oct).”
Wang was throwing too hard in October. He didn’t need more arm strength.
And, while limiting innings could be a good thing…Moose is a feel pitcher and hates extra rest, Andy feels less comfortable with extra rest, and Wang is demonstrably worse with extra rest (not just last post-season, but whenever he gets too much rest he’s usually up with his sinker for a while).
And the kids have never pitched on extra rest. And, are you REALLY going to pay 22 – 25 million dollars to a guy and then have him make 25 starts instead of 35?
We do not waste his talents in a set-up role. We put him in a position where he can give us the most innings. When you think of Joba, think Verlander and Liriano, NOT Broxton
I really don’t get this argument right here. Having starters begin their careers in the bullpen is a tried and true method that has been very successful in the past.
Heck, even Gator was in the bullpen at one point and it didn’t stunt his growth any.
Truth is if the Yankees get Santana putting Joba back in the pen will only make the team stronger. One year in the pen is not going to kill Joba’s career.
Ugh. They save Henn, but not Hughes? Ugh.
Would is be a terrible thought to move Mussina into the pen?
Guys this is great news, but we have the same team that lost in the first round last year. Our work is not done yet
Buddy, I don’t think the Yankees have new leverage that they were unaware of. That was why the discussion took days to figure out about offering Hughes. They knew Andy was returning. The announced return of Andy is meant to help make the Twins jump on the offer of Hughes before they pull it off the table.
The Twins now see that there is no desperation on the Yankees to make the deal either.
Putting Joba in the pen for another year will stunt his growth… IF you really think he has 3 plus pitches and a decent fourth, he is worth more in the rotation…
He needs to build the arm so he can throw innings…
The yankees have a ton of righty talent – from what i have been reading, if horne can get some control with the heater, we might be able to do the same thing with him this year…
Not sure how acquiring Santana means Joba goes back to the pen. It’s the same amount of pitchers, just Hughes replaced by Santana.
Santana
Wang
Pettitte
Moose/Kennedy
Joba
Or if they stand pat:
Wang
Pettitte
Moose/Kennedy
Hughes
Joba
(in no particular order, obviously)
Sunny,
Thanks. Knew the Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan deal, but I must’ve got my wires crossed on the NBA ref(erence).
Doug, how do you figure that, when the rotation really didn’t include Joba and Kennedy as starters?
The difference between Henn and Hughes is that nobody wants Henn.
A Point-
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:26 am
Buddy, I don’t think the Yankees have new leverage that they were unaware of. That was why the discussion took days to figure out about offering Hughes. They knew Andy was returning. The announced return of Andy is meant to help make the Twins jump on the offer of Hughes before they pull it off the table.
The Twins now see that there is no desperation on the Yankees to make the deal either.—————————————————————————————-
So isn’t that new leverage?
Perfect spot for Henn: Dodgers bullpen. Torre will find a way to use him in tight spots.
Cashman is going to have his way with Bill Smith.
Who in G*d’s name IS Andrew?
I don’t think there’s any new leverage because the Yankees need for a number 1 hasn’t diminshed just because Pettitte returned (and this is no disrespect to Pettitte). When Posada said we need a #1, he wasn’t referring to Pettitte, he was talking about Santana.
Will the sox really give Santana 25 mil a year?
Cash will not have his way with Smith. The new Twins GM is a smart baseball man and knows this is his shot to get something other than two draft picks when Santana walks. He’ll get a good deal for the Twins. Both sides will win.
I don’t think joba out of the pen all year is a bad idea. He’s a kid. And he’ll learn pressure packed situational pitching at the same strengthen the hell out of our pen. Starting him too soon, or anyone ofr that matter is Tommy John waiting to happen.
1. What you are reading is true. Unless you are French and can’t understand. What you are reading is what they want you to read. If you read it backwards it will read, “Paul is dead, Paul is dead.”
2. As I said many times, Santana will exercise his ntc if traded to Boston. The Bruins that is. That is all I can say. You will read only what they tell you to read or only what I tell you to read.
3. If you build it, they will come.
4. The Yanks will not relent and offer Hughes. Or they will. What ever I told you the last time. I forget.
Actually starting to really hope this deal falls through. Santana’s a stud, no doubt. But Hughes will only get better and will be a bargain at that price. And there’s this:
—If Santana develops arm problems, you will regret dealing Hughes for him.
—If Hughes develops arm problems, you will regret not trading him for Santana, but you’ll have $25 million a year in your pocket to address the shortfall.
I eagerly await posts from both Bobcat and Miller. Miller said last week that he will “for sure” have inside info as soon as the winter meetings began…I can’t wait for him to show up.
if aliens land in Yankee stadium – they will hopefully bring some help for our bullpen with them…
I would say that it’s new leverage for the Yankees to get the deal done, but I doubt it means they will change the offer.
It’ll be interesting to see what Matt and Minnysota think about this news and how it affects the negotiations.
YES! Great news.
DON TRADE PHIL HUGHES!!!!!!
WE WILL LIVE TO REGRET IT!!!!!!
be careful with alien analogies… look what happened last time some here used one of those
If the aliens bring a lefty, sign him.
A Point-
Yeah, just wishful thinking, not that I think having Kennedy is a bad thing.
We where kinda over a barrel before, we could not start the season with an andlyless johanless rotation… We are in pretty decent shape now… Plus we have karstens in reserve.
“The Yankees still need a unquestioned #1 – and that’s Santana. The return of Pettitte solidifies the rotation, but the Yankees should still pursue Santana.”
which “unquestioned #1” did Boston have going into last season? how about the 2005 White Sox? 2003 Marlins? 2002 Angels?
if your definition of “unquestioned #1” is Santana, how many are there in all of baseball, 5?
So the Yankees right now have to clear 3 spots, assuming no trade is made.
DOn’t worry about trading Hughes, if he is any good the Twins won’t be able to sign him in 5 years anyway. Guess who will his number one suiter with the biggest bank account? Look at is the Twins are getting a 5 year rental of Phil Hughes, once and future Yankee.
The timing is interesting. I still say Hughes is on the table, with Melky and a B-grade prospect. I think the sticking point for the Twins is that 3rd guy – they want an A, the Yankees won’t budge off a B. This is posturing – the Yankees aren’t as “desperate” anymore, and the thinking is that Minnesota might get scared to lose out on Hughes.
I would be pleased as punch to aquire Santana, but I think Hughes will be very good pictcher in his own right, and it’s not as big a deal as some people might think. Andy, Wang, Hughes, and Joba is a great 1-4. Santana, Andy, Wang, and Joba is a better 1-4, but how much better? IMO, you’re not talking about playoffs/no playoffs, more like how tight is the race for the AL East crown going to be.
Besides – the main need is the bullpen.
What are the odds that they trade Melk, Hughes and someone else for Santana now? Hopefully zilch, I love the new direction of the Yankees.
Wheres Mr. Bobcat when you need him?
This is GREAT news!
Getting Santana would be ‘’icing on the cake.’’ Thank God, Pettitte’s returning!
What is the general consensus on Horne? ESPN’s Keith Law said that he has better pure stuff than Kennedy, but his command is shaky. Maybe with the Big Three in the Bronx next year (hopefully), Nardi Contreras can make Horne the pet project in 2008.
Why do so many assume haren is going to be easier to get than Santana? If anything, he is going to cost MORE in prospects.
Andy coming back makes the yankees less desperate. He’s the perfect bridge as the kids mature on the job.
But it also makes getting Santana for the 2008 season even more valuable.
With Andy back adding Santana creates a very formidable staff. Not many staffs would be able to match either of those lefties, never mind both.
Let’s see what Smith does. Will he really keep Santana for the season?
Jeff:
(All things being equal in terms of free-agent contracts proposed)
Why would Hughes want to return to an organization that traded him off after spending the last three years calling him the jewel of their future? I sure as hell wouldn’t. The kid will be heartbroken and probably end up with Boston bc 1) it’ll be payback and 2) he grew up a Red Sox fan
at the end of the day, i think all this means is that the Twins will be forced to decide and i think they will accept the Yankees’ offer.
Heartbroken? Oh come on, he will go where the most money is.
Nice. Great to have Andy back!!!
hmmm-
I hope its literalty ‘at the end of the day’..
The waiting is the hardest part of this!
Gotta switch to the Kennedy package and build a deal from there. The Twins sat on the Hughes offer too long.
Guidryball, 3 reasons why he or any baseball player would consider coming to a team: 1)Money, 2)Monetary Compensation and 3)Muchos Dineros.
raymagnetic,
At some point, we are going to need to start building up his arm strength. It is vital for a pitcher at his age to increase his innings. Right now, he is on pace for 130 innings next year. If we use him as a reliever yet again, that’s only 80 innings, and in 2009, he will only be able to go 30 or so above that.
Do we really want to waste 2 of his cost controlled years so he doesn’t even pitch over 150 innings each year? Seems like a waste of a perfectly good arm to me.
“Why do so many assume haren is going to be easier to get than Santana? If anything, he is going to cost MORE in prospects.”
I think some of us believe that Haren can be had for a package of 4 very good prospects rather than the one big name headliner package that Santana requires.
Did people who want Joba in the pen to develop or get used to “pressure packed sitations, etc. watch Justin Verlander pitch Detroit into the world series in 2006?
Would Detroit have been better off taking it easy with Verlander and having him in the pen that year?
How many times have the yankees gotten shut down by a dominant starter in the playoffs?
Joba has shut down stuff and can bring it for 7-8 innings right now.
The yankees are killing themselves right now to try to get santana because he’s a true ace.
So we take the closest thing we’ve had to a internally grown true ace since guidry and put him in the pen?
Project P40 worked. From Tyler Kepner of the Times:
“Calls and requests for him to return from Brian Cashman, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Joe Girardi, among others, influenced him, as did an outpouring of requests from Yankees fans,” Randy Hendricks said, after the news was first reported by the Houston Chronicle.
Project P40 worked. From Tyler Kepner of the Times:
WHo says we don;t influence personnel moves
the Yankees are NOT going to go after Haren unless it’s a package centered around Kennedy.
if i had to guess, i would say if they don’t get Santana, they are content to start the season with Pettitte/Wang/Hughes/Kennedy/Joba/Moose.
that is a very solid rotation, even if it lacks this “true #1” everyone has been obsessed about for the last 2 months.
who knows, maybe Pettitte or Joba or Hughes are already your playoff ace?
think about it like this: had the yankees simply switched Pettitte and Wang in the ALDS with Pettitte going first, would the Yankees have won the series? would Pettitte have won game 1? he might have. what about game 4? maybe.
in other words, maybe the Yankees HAD the personnel last season, but they were under-utilized by Torre.
Pettitie is a bulldog the guy you want to pitch in the post season but he is not a number 1. Someone made a good point with the phil hughes and a scratch off.
If somebody offered you $75 dollars or a scratch off and the scratch off COULD be worth $100 $50 or $20 what would you take. You take the sure bet $75.
Hughes has a great upside but he is not proven like Santana. He is going to be good Im sure barring injury, but Santana is the best pitcher in the game and put him on a team that wins. He could win 22 games.
“raymagnetic,
At some point, we are going to need to start building up his arm strength. It is vital for a pitcher at his age to increase his innings. Right now, he is on pace for 130 innings next year. If we use him as a reliever yet again, that’s only 80 innings, and in 2009, he will only be able to go 30 or so above that.
Do we really want to waste 2 of his cost controlled years so he doesn’t even pitch over 150 innings each year? Seems like a waste of a perfectly good arm to me.”
This is one way to look at it. However, what I think they should do is have him be a 2IP pitcher on most occasions when he does pitch. This would keep his innings total at about 100 or so. He could then pitch in a winter league to add more innings to his arm and in 2009 he could become a full time starter.
To me, Joba being able to pitch the 7th & 8th innings a couple of games a week would make the Yankees more dangerous. In other words, use him like the 1996 Mariano Rivera who pitched 107IP’s.
As far as cost controlled years, I seriously doubt the Yankees are worried about that, otherwise they would have never brought him up to the majors a year after being drafted.
Sweeny Murti will be on WFAN from 11:00 to 12:00.
CB-
How many young dominant starters had a career ending arm injury? That list is a lot longer than young dominant pitchers that shut people down in the playoffs.
Don’t forget, the Yanks got Joba cuz everyone was afraid he had an injury.
I agree that Joba has dominant stuff, and I ‘d love for him to be a starter. But their are worse ideas than nurturing him into a starter in the bullpen for a year. It is, afterall, his 2nd pro season.
And don’t say he can go 7-8 innings strong cuz he never has at a professional level over a course of a season.
“The Oakland Athletics want Hughes and Kennedy for their All-Star starter, Dan Haren, an idea the Yankees would reject.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/sports/baseball/03yankees.html?ref=baseball
Oakland leak – probably but this tells you the stratosphere Beane is thinking in. Since when has Beane started making reasonable demands when he trades the few valuable assets he has?
Never.
Just look over all of the trades he’s made. He rarely sells cheaply because he always trades his valuable players when he has the leverage.
Harren is 27 and signed for the next 3 years for a total of $16million. Think about that – in 3 years Haren will make only 60% of what Santana will in one year of his new contract.
Beane is not going to ask for a reasonable package because he really doesn’t need to.
Steve Phillips on 1050 ESPN
Gee, tough decision
hmmm
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:40 am
“The Yankees still need a unquestioned #1 – and that’s Santana. The return of Pettitte solidifies the rotation, but the Yankees should still pursue Santana.”
which “unquestioned #1″ did Boston have going into last season? how about the 2005 White Sox? 2003 Marlins? 2002 Angels?
if your definition of “unquestioned #1″ is Santana, how many are there in all of baseball, 5?———————————————That wasn’t my point. You’re misreading my post. The Yankees have a chance to obtain one. You don’t rescind your offer with the return of one of your better starters. If anything this means we should do our best to get Santana as our rotation will be even better upon his arrival.
Thanks Mister Delaware. Switched off xmas music.
Let us know if Phillips says anything interesting on 1050.
Is he going to do a pretend press conference where rotates between being Cashman, Epstein and Smith?
Max Kellerman is really ripping into Steve Phillips (Kinda kidding, but still).
“Pettitie is a bulldog the guy you want to pitch in the post season but he is not a number 1.”
No, he’s not a number 1 and yet the Yankees were still in position to win his start after he didn’t allow a run to score while pitching into the seventh inning.
I guess that’s not exactly ace like pitching though, I would say it’s something close to it however.
Phillips is giving us his usual Yankee Haterade.
Well, Phillips apparently doesn’t know that Santana said he`ll only waive his NTC for Boston or New York and said he could go to the Angels.
hey wait, i thought all the players were going to leave when they got rid of Torre?
4 for 4.
Apparently Melky is a fat, slow, 4th OF’er who will never get any better
hmmm…
so true. All Torre was able to poach was a few coaches.
Phillips also believes the Mets are brilliant and that Ryan Church is “very underrated”
But Milledge is still better than Melky
If the Twins don’t like Melky why are we offering him?
“You don’t rescind your offer with the return of one of your better starters. If anything this means we should do our best to get Santana as our rotation will be even better upon his arrival.”
i still think they will get Santana.
i was just saying that with Pettitte, i don’t think they HAVE to anymore.
Boston will probably still be ahead on paper to start the season, but just remember that the team you start the season with is not necessarily the team you end up with.
if the Yankees did NOTHING else but sign someone like Riske, i would be comfortable starting the season. they have the chips to make a move at the deadline if they need to.
we don’t know what will happen. maybe someone like Sanchex or Melancon emerges as a bullpen ace down the stretch. it’s not like Joba was on anyone’s radar at this time last year. maybe a pitcher no one considered gets put on the trade block.
i think this team is VERY close right now.
Adam,
First off – let’s put this Joba was hurt in college stuff to rest. He had a triceps tendinitis – that is not a big deal in anyway. Teams were very worried about how Joba had once been fat.
When Joba was drafted I remember someone compared him to Sidney Ponson.
Those people were absolutely wrong.
Second – Since when do pitchers in the bull pen get “nurtured?”
They don’t – they get abused because they can’t get regular rest. This is not a Joe Torre issue. Relievers burn out left and right all the time. That’s one of the reason’s Mo is so amazing.
They cannot have Joba protected by the Joba rules for an entire year. He will get used as a regular reliever – back to back days, warming up without coming in, etc.
That is not nurturing. Santana came up this way starting in the pen becasue he was picked up in the rule V draft not to nurture him.
What PK said before is exactly right. You stick Joba in the pen this year you are damaging his development significantly in two ways.
First – he threw 146 innings this year. In the pen next year he won’t throw more than 70. You won’t be developing his arm strenght. It’ll go backwards. So two years from now if you want to put him in the rotation how many innings can he throw if he only throws 70 in 2008?
Second – joba needs to work on his 3rd and 4th pitches. They are both decent right now but have the potential to be very good. Coming out of the pen he only needs two pitches – fastball slider. He just won’t get better.
Putting a guy with this kind of talent in the pen may make it more likely for him to get hurt, blocks him from developing arm strength and prevents him from developing his complementary pitches.
Excellent…(said with devilish grin while palms and fingertips touch together)
now don’t overpay for santana!!!keep hughes!!
hmmm – that I agree with. This is a solid team with all the pieces in place, but the acquisition of Santana – without a doubt – puts this team on a more level playing field with Boston IMO.
wonderful news pete!
Sweeny Murti is on WFAN right now saying that the Twins could hold onto Santana and trade him at the deadline. Doesn’t he know Santana said he’s not getting traded midseason?
YOWZA!!
Now cooler heads will prevail and we can rebuild the rotation with Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy instead of overpaying for Santana, hopefully.
If the Twins are out of contention, what are the odds that Santana would refuse a July trade to NYY/Boston?
Second – joba needs to work on his 3rd and 4th pitches. They are both decent right now but have the potential to be very good. Coming out of the pen he only needs two pitches – fastball slider. He just won’t get better.
Putting a guy with this kind of talent in the pen may make it more likely for him to get hurt, blocks him from developing arm strength and prevents him from developing his complementary pitches.
Please run this argument across Earl Weaver and explain to him how horrible a pitcher Jim Palmer amongst others were because they started their careers in the bullpen.
“If somebody offered you $75 dollars or a scratch off and the scratch off COULD be worth $100 $50 or $20 what would you take. You take the sure bet $75.”
To me, it’s more like a sure $75, and a scratch off that could be worth as much as $100, but no less than $50. Because of his control and the fact that he’ll have his legs underneath him all year (like we saw in Sept and Oct), I think Hughes is extremely unlikely to bust, barring freak injuries. A guy like Horne, on the other hand, with “great stuff but spotty control” is one of those guys that is very likely to struggle, at least early on, and may never get it together.
Oh come onSantana would agree to be traded if his team was in last place and they wanted to trade him to a first place team. Is he just saying that so they move quicker.
WOw—what a way to wake up…
A foot of snow and Andy Pettitte is coming back…
If I’m Cashman (and this upcoming opinion is probably why I don’t have Cashman’s job), I pull Hughes, say new offer is IPK, Horne, Melky and Gardner/or Gonzalez…
And I say, “Let me know by the time the Daily Show with Jon Stewart starts tonight…or we’re out.”
With Andy back one more year, and Moose, I think Wang and the Lethal Weapon III could contend, especially with that lineup bahind them, right now, as a team, minus an-under-the radar arm or two for the bullpen.
Am I crazy?
“jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge
December 3rd, 2007 at 11:18 am
Oh come onSantana would agree to be traded if his team was in last place and they wanted to trade him to a first place team. Is he just saying that so they move quicker.”
Ok that may be true but he probably won’t sign an extension at that point meaning the Twins will get much less for him at the deadline. If he starts the season as a Twin he is going to free agency.
Hughes and Melky I don’t believe is overpaying. Hughes, Melky and Horne/Tabata/AJax/Kennedy/or Betances is overpaying. If the Twins stand pay on that demand, the Yankees should walk away.
Pete,
It was nice of you to give credit to the Houston Chronicle.
Shows you are a class act.
I can’t believe people on this blog are still clamoring for Joba to be put into the pen. It’s unreal.
Let’s trade for Johan and then put him in the bullpen with Joba and Mariano and then we can make it a FOUR INNING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Igawa for 4, Joba for 2, Johan for 2 and then teh bridge to mo is complete!!11!1
I think its brilliant that Hank put a deadline on this thing. its getting ridiculous, and with the Red Sox offers it will only get more ridiculous. I say if the Twins don’t take our offer we move forward with what we have: Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy as the 6th. Next year, assuming Pettitte and Moose walk, we can try our hand at picking up Santana when hes a free agent, cause I doubt he’ll get traded mid-season this year.
“Please run this argument across Earl Weaver and explain to him how horrible a pitcher Jim Palmer amongst others were because they started their careers in the bullpen.”
But how long did it take them to develop? Would having Joba shelve his changeup for ANOTHER year be a good idea for getting him to be a dominant starter ASAP?
I agree with those that say pull Hughes from the deal NOW. With Pettitte back in the fold, it’s time to play hardball with the Twinkies. I honestly don’t care if Boston gets Santana at this point.
As someone else alluded to, Palmer came up in the pen a full decade before free agency. That does (or probably should) change the way you utilize your high-end starting prospects.
It’s great Pettitte is coming back – gives the Yanks a year’s grace to learn if Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain can be successful starters (Putting potential aside, we don’t know the answers YET).
Why do people think Billy Beane will not demand Hughes for Haren? Haren is not Santana, but is not that far off.
What was that stat that SJ44 was reciting over and over about Santana not giving up more than X amount of earned runs last year in X amount of his starts?
Palmer also had to overvcome a ton of injuries from early career misuse to make it to the Hall of Fame. He was a very rare pitcher. They thought his career was over two or three different times when he was starting out.
CB-
You’re right on all your points. But I still don’t think it’s a terrible idea for one season. You’re right he needs his arm strength built, but come August we don’t want to have to shut him down.
And triceps tendonitis is a big deal considering its a symptom of an impigment in the elbow combined with a repitive motion. And someone as young as Joba is not fully grown no matter how big he is, especially at his joints. No, Triceps tendonitis is not a symptom of TJ, but it’s not a good sign either, the way biceps tendonitis is not good sign for a shoulder. It was plenty to scare every team in baseball.
I can think of a starter who was ‘nurtured in the pen’. Johan Santana.
It raises a question though, how will the Yanks maximize Joba’s innings, so by the end of the year, he’s maxing out innings and maxing effectiveness.
It was….Santana only gave up more than 4 runs in 4 starts last year.
I think it was he gave up 4ER or more 4 times in 30 something starts.
Who’s to say putting Joba in the pen makes him shelve any of his pitches.
Question, when the Dodgers put Chad Billingsley into the bullpen did it make him a worse or better pitcher?
Truth is Joba has 30 ML innings. 30! He’s only going to pitch about 150IP’s in the rotation anyway.
100IP’s in the bullpen or 150IP’s in the rotation. Which one is greater?
OK – now that Andy is back, let’s close the trading door, keep Hughes and Melky and let Joe Girardi start making his plans.
Someone else can trade for Santana the next time around.
Oh, and don’t forget that Hank says that Joba is a Starting Pitcher. And, that’s final.
This has been a great 0ff-season for all things Yankee.
I can’t wait to see Joba as a starter. A great chance to see him make a guy look silly 2 or 3 times not just once.
Glad that Andy is back(along with Mo and Jorge), but will be sad to see Hughes and Cabrerra go if we get Santana.
I think every one will secretly miss Serling’s call of”the Melkman delivers” after a big hit or defensive gem if he goes. But that the way baseball goes
At least we’ll still have “A-bombs from A-rod”!!
And he gave up atleast 4 in 5 of his last 7 starts. All depends on how you cut the numbers.
This is an amazing early Christmas present – THANK YOU ANDY!!!
I think I love you, so what am I so afraid of…I’m afraid of what I’m not sure of…..your fastball there is no cure for…....Johan Santana that song is dedicated to you from me.
I don’t think we can resaonably assume we’d be in as good a position next year as we are right now, now that Pettitte signs. You have to assume that at least one of the Hughes/Joba/Kennedy either has a weak year or gets injured, and is consequently worth less and puts the Yanks in a worse bargaining postion than they are now. At this moment, those 3 guys are all relatively untarnished and at their highest potential value. Sure, they could all have great years and fulfill all the expectations we have, in which case we probably have no need to do anything after 2008, but history/probability says otherwise. I say you still make the Santana trade if Hughes/Melky/one prospect gets in done.
While sifting thru the nearly 2000 plus posts regarding potential Santana news this weekend, how many of you read the article about Hank S. that said Tino Martinez was coming back to work for the Yankees?
Good to hear, but the article only speculated on what the “Bamtino’s” new role would be.
What’s wrong with going with Pettitte,Wang and the three pitchers? I rather give up 2 draft picks than give up Hughes,Melky+
Yanks Rule-
Click my name and scroll down a few posts….
“Please run this argument across Earl Weaver and explain to him how horrible a pitcher Jim Palmer amongst others were because they started their careers in the bullpen.”
People who keep bringing up this mantra of Earl Weaver and Jim Palmer coming up through the pen never check to see what Weaver actually did with palmer.
Here’s Palmer’s workload
1965 Age 20 IP – 92
1966 IP – 208
1967 IP – 84 (spent most of year in minors)
1968 IP – 37 (most of year in minors)
1969 IP – 181
1970 IP – 305
No manager or organization would ever do this now. They would be fired. Palmer got very, very lucky.
Palmer’s workload jerked up and down terribly from age 20 to 25 when he finally settled in the rotation.
From 1965 to 1966 his innings pitched increased 220%!! Between 1969 and 1970 his innings pitched increased 170%!!
This is good development? This is awful. Now back then they didn’t know any better I supposed.
But to hold baseball as it was in 1965 to 1970 as a model for baseball now is absurd. Modern medicine may have developed a bit from 1969 to now for instance.
Right now with good young pitchers organizations try not to increase their innings pitched by more than 30% from one season to a next.
That’s already what the yankees have said is their development model.
If Joba throws 70 innings in 2008 he won’t be able to be a regular starter or even close in 2009 or 2010.
Great news about Andy returning, nice way to start off the week. Perhaps the upcoming meetings will provide the opportunity for Cashman to go after Kazmir or Bedard, two viable alternatives to Santana that aren’t likely to be as costly.
I’ll take Santana if the T