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Pettitte’s return gives the Yanks choices

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 03, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The return of Andy Pettitte opens up three options for the Yankees:

Option 1: The rotation is Wang, Pettitte, Chamberlain, Hughes and Moose or Kennedy.

Option 2: The rotation is Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Chamberlain and Moose or Kennedy.

Option 3: The rotation is Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Moose and Kennedy and Chamberlain goes in the bullpen as the set-up man.

The bullpen is a mess at the moment, unless you have faith in Farnsworth, Ohlendorf, Ramirez and Veras. Option 2 is appealing but I think you’re wasting Chamberlain by using him in the bullpen.

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98 Responses to “Pettitte’s return gives the Yanks choices”

  1. Yankee Sean December 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 am

    we def need to test chamberlain as a starter next season

  2. John December 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 am

    I like option 2…
    I hope this happens today

  3. wood is good December 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 am

    I definitely would love Santana, but if we walk away and keep P. Hughes and Melky, I wouldn’t be disappointed, and I think we could feel pretty good about ourselves. Johan is hot for sure, but I don’t think we should be giving up a lot for him….

  4. Sherri December 3rd, 2007 at 11:37 am

    Agreed – it would be a mistake to not at least give Joba a shot as a starter.

  5. Ben December 3rd, 2007 at 11:37 am

    Or we can have wang pettitte hughes moose kennedy And joba in the pen

  6. Uncle Vito December 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am

    Agreed….remember JOBA IS A STARTER !!!

  7. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am

    If I’m the Yankees I like option 2 the best.

    As I posted on the previous thread if Chamberlain is used correctly out of the bullpen you can maximize his worth while not stunting his development.

  8. Inferno December 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am

    I’ll take option 4. yanks go with a 6-man rotation of the 3 kids, moose, andy and wang in whatever order you want. this helps because of the innings cap all 3 kids should be on. slate the 3 in order of highest innings cap to lowest.

  9. sunny615 December 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am

    I would avoid putting Joba in the pen at all. He’s got electric stuff.

  10. KC December 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am

    I like Option 1…

  11. CB December 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am

    “Please run this argument across Earl Weaver and explain to him how horrible a pitcher Jim Palmer amongst others were because they started their careers in the bullpen.”

    People who keep bringing up this mantra of Earl Weaver and Jim Palmer coming up through the pen never check to see what Weaver actually did with palmer.

    Here’s Palmer’s workload

    1965 Age 20 IP – 92
    1966 IP – 208
    1967 IP – 84 (spent most of year in minors)
    1968 IP – 37 (most of year in minors)
    1969 IP – 181
    1970 IP – 305

    No manager or organization would ever do this now. They would be fired. Palmer got very, very lucky.

    Palmer’s workload jerked up and down terribly from age 20 to 25 when he finally settled in the rotation.

    From 1965 to 1966 his innings pitched increased 220%!! Between 1969 and 1970 his innings pitched increased 170%!!

    This is good development? This is awful. Now back then they didn’t know any better I supposed.

    But to hold baseball as it was in 1965 to 1970 as a model for baseball now is absurd. Modern medicine may have developed a bit from 1969 to now for instance.

    Right now with good young pitchers organizations try not to increase their innings pitched by more than 30% from one season to a next.

    That’s already what the yankees have said is their development model.

    If Joba throws 70 innings in 2008 he won’t be able to be a regular starter or even close in 2009 or 2010.

  12. Keith December 3rd, 2007 at 11:40 am

    Yankees should pull the Hughes offer now. We have the Pettitte leverage. Go back to the Kennedy proposal. It should have never been Hughes anyway unless the Sox offered Bucholtz. Stupid.

  13. J-Dawg December 3rd, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Options 1 or 2 would work for me and I agree that Chamberlain has much better use as a starter. Cashman will hopefully figure out the solution for the pen. Maybe he can get fortunate and find a good reliever who is under the radar. The best thing about those options is that Kei Igawa is nowhere near the rotation. Sigh of relief!!

  14. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2007 at 11:41 am

    If the Santana trade is or isn’t made one of the youngsters will have to be put into the pen regardless because there is no way they will have moody Moose pitching out of the pen. Whose stuff translates best out of the bullpen?

  15. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Anything as to whether we’d consider using Horne in the bullpen? If it worked for Joba (not that I expect for Horne to even come close to Joba), no reason to not try a guy out and give him some MLB experience. That’s unless we think he’d benefit from more seasoning in AAA. My understanding is that Horne’s at least 24 or 25, though, right?

    So have we pulled Hughes from the offer yet, since the innings things is now closer to a moot point?

  16. Andy Hawkins December 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

    Mark my words. By July, the best of those four releivers Pete talked about is going to be Jose Veras. Nobody talks about him, but he has a great arm.

  17. hmmm December 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

    “So have we pulled Hughes from the offer yet, since the innings things is now closer to a moot point?”

    no. they won’t pull it. the twins will accept it.

    the yankees will have santana by tomorrow.

  18. mel December 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

    I’ll take Option 5:

    -Santana
    -Pettitte
    -Haren
    -Bedard
    -Beckett

    Just kidding, Beckett’s a pig.

  19. raymagnetic December 3rd, 2007 at 11:44 am

    No manager or organization would ever do this now. They would be fired. Palmer got very, very lucky.

    Your argument would make a lot of sense if it were true. Unfortunately it isn’t. Young pitchers start out of the bullpen all the time.

    Even the great Johan Santana spent the first couple of years of his career in the bullpen.

  20. The Bronx Stop December 3rd, 2007 at 11:45 am

    wow…haha the red sox have got to be freaking out right now…lolololololloollol

  21. Yanksrule57 December 3rd, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Keith,

    I agree with your sentiment but as a business person, if I; 1. make you an offer, 2. give you a deadline to accept, then, 3. before the deadline expires pull the deal, is that an ethical way to do business?
    I agree that if they let the deadline pass then pull Hughes. That is, the longer they wait, the lower the offer.

  22. Dan December 3rd, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Option 1 is the most appealing to me. You cannot trade Phil Hughes. The Yankees are finally heading in the right direction in developing their own pitchers, and IMO Hughes is still the best starting pitcher “prospect” they have.

    Yes, Joba did a hell of a job in the ‘pen, but he never saw a batter more than once a game, and he was able to give it his all on every pitch for an inning or two as opposed to a starter who has to pace himself through 6+ innings and face each batter at least twice a game.

  23. Brian - So Cal Yankee Fan December 3rd, 2007 at 11:47 am

    Would like to see the Yanks go after Damaso Marte of the Pirates or Brian Fuentes of the Rockies. Wonder what it would cost? In any case, Krazy Kyle’s got to go. You don’t pull what he did last year and remain on the roster. He also hasn’t done the job.

    If the Yankees trade Melky, I would like to see them ask about David DeJesus of KC. Joey Gaithright has surpassed him on the Royals CF slot. DeJesus would be a legit lead-off man and we wouldn’t have to suffer Damon in CF.

    Would like to see the Yanks move on from the Santana trade. I think Boston is just raising the price. Santana can be had as a free agent without giving up Hughes, Melky etc.

    Pete….the Nashville hotel sounds like a great place for a scavenger hunt….

  24. The Bronx Stop December 3rd, 2007 at 11:47 am

    PUT MUSSINA IN THE BULLPEN AS A LONG RELIEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The rotation should be Wang, Pettite, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy

  25. CB December 3rd, 2007 at 11:48 am

    The younger pitchers do not necessarily need to go into the pen this year.

    Kennedy threw around 160-170 innings last year. He can throw close to 200. Slot him into the 4 slot in the rotation

    Joba goes into the 5th slot. You don’t use him at the start of the season when you only need 4 pitchers. That will save him several starts.

    Then for the rest of the year you skip him starts and let mussina make those extra starts.

    It’s not unusual for teams to skip young pitchers starts to get them through the season on their innings cap. The giants did this last year with Lincecum.

    If hughes is in the rotation it becomes more complicated. They’ll have to use moose strategically and also will need someone from the minors to make some starts perhaps.

  26. David December 3rd, 2007 at 11:48 am

    If the twins insist on Tabata, or Jackson, or Horne, why don’t they take an offer of Kennedy, Melky, Horne and then either Jackson or Tabata?

    That way we keep Hughes and Twins get both guys they want as the 3rd prospect in the Hughes deal. They would have all 3 OF spots locked up for a long time (Delmon Young, Melky, and either Jackson or Tabata) and get one MLB ready SP and another great SP prospect…

  27. EY December 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am

    My vote is for option 1.

    THANK YOU ANDY! (Looks like Andy always wants to save Phil Hughes)

  28. Scooter December 3rd, 2007 at 11:50 am

    Mitchell -

    I like Horne a lot – I saw him pitch for the Trenton Thunder on a Comcast broadcast this past season. He had a great curve, a hard sinking fastball, and a 4-seamer that could blow people away. The only thing was that he seemed to run out of gas towards the end of the season.

    With innings caps on Joba (and Hughes if we keep him), we’re going to need Horne at some point. I think he’ll start at Scranton, and end up in the Yankee rotation at some point in 2008 (especially given how fragile Moose is)

    Horne did have Tommy John surgery a few years back – so I’d be reluctant to put him in the pen.

    The guy I’d much rather see in the pen is Jeff Marquez. I could see him as a Ramiro Mendoza type – swing starter/middle reliever with a tough sinking fastball.

    Not to sound crazy, but there will be need for 7 or 8 starters next year – and that’s barring serious injuries.

    I’m really curious to see how the Twins respond to this deadline, ESPECIALLY with Pettitte back in the fold. As Pete said, the Yankees could ‘lose’ Santana and still feel pretty good about the rotation as is.

    And if there’s no Santana, I don’t think we’ll trade for Haren – not with Pettitte back.

  29. Raya December 3rd, 2007 at 11:52 am

    I am looking for the yankees to hold their “develop dont trade” ground right now and pull the phil hughes offer. Santana would be nice but with pettite back I dont think its a necessity. Plus, people are underestimating the effect that melky has on this team. he’s such a charismatic youngster who brings a lot of energy to the club house and I think with all the new coaches and staff, that sort of consistent energy will be really important come april.

  30. EY December 3rd, 2007 at 11:53 am

    *also wants

  31. MikeNuck December 3rd, 2007 at 11:53 am

    I like the idea of Moose in the bullpen.

  32. alex December 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Is there any way we can add Nathan to the trade if we include more prospects?

  33. CB December 3rd, 2007 at 11:56 am

    raymagnetic,

    I like your posts. But you are completely off here. I just presented all of the facts regarding palmer and weaver which was your major point as to why it is good for young pitchers to start in the pen.

    Palmer was used terribly. That’s what the facts show. Seriously – do you think the way the weaver used him was a benefit to Palmer. That’s just absurd.

    Santana was used out of the pen because he was a rule V pick up. Think about that – that’s how little the astros and the rest of baseball thought of Santana.

    They had to put him into the pen to keep him on the major league roster initially so they wouldn’t have to send him back to Astros.

    These are santana’s workload numbers:

    2000 IP 86
    2001 IP 44
    2002 IP 108
    2003 IP 158
    2004 IP 228

    This is not optimal usage. And what happenned? Santana had elbow surgery after 2003 – bone chips removed. For a time they thought he might need TJ surgery.

    Do you think it would be beneficial for it to take 5 years before Joba throws 200 innings for the yankees?

  34. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 11:58 am

    Why does getting Pettitte back change anything regarding the Yanks need/desire for Santana? Pettitte will be back for 1 year, possibly 2, before he reitres for good. How does this change their need to get an ace for the next 5 years?

  35. The Fallen Phoenix December 3rd, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    Because Phil Hughes could be that ace for five years, but not immediately.

  36. dougko December 3rd, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    I still would like to see Wang and Mussina (and $$) for Bedard. O’s get an inexpensive pitcher who won 38 games in the last two years and Mussina for a nice homecoming/farewell tour (and all the attendance that would provide in Baltimore.) We get Bedard.

  37. Bob's my Uncle December 3rd, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    The Angels are now looking to be closer to getting M. Cabrera right now. That will give them a pretty potent lineup themselves.

    That is why you need to have strong pitching.

    Think of this. Pettitte should get 18 wins this year, should have gotten that many last season, but didn’t have run support for a lot of the early games. Santana should have at least 20 wins. Wang should get his usual 19 wins or maybe break 20 this year. Joba should be able to get 10 wins (possibly a few more), Kennedy should be able to do likewise. Mussina is another who should be able to squeek out 12 wins at the least.
    18+20+19+10+12 = 89 wins and none of that is really a stretch. Every team also has wins that go to the Bullpen I would say it would be roughly 10 wins. That is right around a 100 win season.

    That should be enough for the Division, Pettitte and Santana as the two big game winners in the playoffs, Wang I think will also be able to come up big.

    I think if the Yankees get Santana they should be favored to win over Boston. With last year being such a “magic” season for the Red Sox, that team with over a 14 game lead, nearly lost the division in the last few weeks of the season.

    The bats are there. Heck, even with Hughes in the rotation they should at most have a difference of only 5 wins less from the above. That is under estimating both Pettitte and Joba.

    The Yankees biggest thing is getting off to a decent start for the season. If they play .500 in the beginning and then heat up they will dominate.

  38. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    Fallen Phoenix…

    But that has nothing to do with Pettitte coming back. I’m just responding to the people who’s reaction to the Pettitte news is that we should back away from the Santana negotiations. Whether we should stick with Hughes or use him to trade for Santana is a separate issue that (as far as I can see) has nothing to do with Pettitte coming back.

  39. TheGhostOfAlvaroEspinoza December 3rd, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    Ouch–Twins “not happy” about Hank’s comments…

    http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=282

    Also debunks speculation about Santana only waiving his NTC for Boston or New York.

  40. Alex K December 3rd, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    I think we should put Joba in the bullpen. When Mariano is done (and as much as I hate to think about it, it could happen as early as this year), who are we going to have as a closer? There are NO options right now other than Joba.

    And if you think good closers aren’t valuable… how many teams that won the World Series over the last 10 years DIDN’T have great closers?

  41. rodg12 December 3rd, 2007 at 12:14 pm

    Ghos – that’s the same guys who’s been wrong on several points during the Santana trade discussions. I’m not giving him much creditability in this thing.

  42. rodg12 December 3rd, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    Ahhhh, dang it, should have been ‘Ghost’ not ‘Ghos’

  43. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    erik: because the plan all along was for us to get our ace from within. why abandon this plan?

  44. matt December 3rd, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    wang, pettite, joba, phil, ian, moose (6 man rotation for the sake of an innings cap with the big 3) horne to make a few spot starts when wang inevitable has fingernail issues or someone else gets hurt…veras/ohlendorf/viz/kyle/mo/marquez as the long man carry 12 pitchers…posada/molina, duncan/phillips, cano, jeter, arod, betemit, damon, abreu, matsui, giambi, melky…theres your roster ladies and gentleman….

  45. keith December 3rd, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Well, lets see. The Dbacks in ’01, the Marlins in ’03, the Sox in ’04. The ChiSox in ’05, the Cards in ’06. =\

  46. hmmm December 3rd, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    “who are we going to have as a closer? There are NO options right now other than Joba. ”

    i don’t know, but i guarantee you weren’t thinking about Joba being the closer this time last year.

    in other words, who knows who will emerge? Melancon? Sanchez? Cox? Robertson? Whelan?

    why would the yankees make a stupid decision 2 years in advance just so impatient fans won’t feel insecure about their 2009 bullpen?

    unreal.

  47. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven: Well, that’s A plan, but not the only plan. And again, the decision to find an ace from withing rather than trading for one remains unchanged after the Pettitte news. Andy fills a hole for us next year, but its not the same hole that Santana would fill for us for the next 5. All I’m saying is that getting Andy back doesn’t lessen the need for Santana. In my view, we’re still at the same point we were before the Pettitte news. We still have to decide whether its worth giving up what they’re talking about for Santana. Pettitte doesn’t change that.

  48. keith December 3rd, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Oh, sorry the ’97 Marlins too!

    So from 97-07 teams with “great closers” who have won the world series: 98-00 Yankees, ’02 Angels (K-Rod), ’07 Red Sox

    50/50

  49. desti(NY) 2008 December 3rd, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Cashman needs to go full tilt after LHRP Damaso Marte. A team like the Pirates would be thrilled with a package of DeSalvo, Rasner, Henn, and Bruney who are not in Yankee plans.
    Marte knows how to shut down lefthanded hitters coming out of the pen. Also go after either FA’s Ron Mahay or Jeremy Affeldt, and re-sign Vizcaino. Consider the bullpen fixed with the rest to shake out in spring training.

  50. Taylor December 3rd, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Option 4: A rotation of Wang, Pettitte, Kennedy, Hughes and Chamberlain (the latter 3 based on the amount of innings they can throw this year), with Mussina “subbing” in for the latter 3 (and mostly the latter 2) throughout the season to keep their innings down.

  51. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Scooter – Great info on Horne. Thanks. Am I right about his age, and does that have an effect on his status as prospect?

  52. Jewish Jackhammer December 3rd, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    If the yankees go through with this deal they will have been played once again by Epstein. He didn’t want Santana and simply tried to get the yankees to give up hughes. Hank being as bright and showing as much patience as most guys who inherit their positions in life failed to get the best deal possible. Namely, Kennedy, Cabrera, and others. The Yankees should have stick to their guns. But get used to this lack of courage in negotiating with Hank. I’d love to do business with. I’ll sell you this for 10 dollars. Oh really, well I’ll buy it for 15. Nice doing business with you Hank. Good job.

    In regards to the idea that the Yankees can’t back out now that pettite has come aboard. They can easily submarine the deal by making the third person a nobody. Maybe the backup catcher at low A ball for example.

    Best case scenario is that they pull out the red sox change their minds and the twins come crawling back. probably unlikely though. Although it is possible that the red sox couldn’t work out a deal for santana and then the twin will take kennedy and cabreara at that point.

  53. torrey December 3rd, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    Mussina seems to be a creature of habit, I don’t think it would be good having him come out of the pen on a regular basis.

  54. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    I don’t think any team would go through the whole exercise of trading for Santana without having an advance guarantee that the deal would include a contract extension.

  55. Mel (Welcome Back) December 3rd, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    Best case scenario is that they pull out the red sox change their minds and the twins come crawling back. probably unlikely though. Although it is possible that the red sox couldn’t work out a deal for santana and then the twin will take kennedy and cabreara at that point.

    ^^^^^ I really hope that is what happens. They are getting a bit greedy so I hope it come back around on them.

  56. hmmm December 3rd, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    “A team like the Pirates would be thrilled with a package of DeSalvo, Rasner, Henn, and Bruney who are not in Yankee plans.”

    no they wouldn’t.

  57. Dj Awesome December 3rd, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    Option 3 is the Best Leave Joba in the Pen,
    Hank please listen to your true fans!!!

  58. Paul V December 3rd, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    Get Nathan or Street as setup men.

  59. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    erik: agreed on that front. it comes back down to whether you continue to be concerned as to the innings count and experience factor with Hughes and Joba at the 3 and 4 slots, as well as whether you think their development is enough that they can act as stoppers in a potential postseason. you can be concerned and still say “full steam ahead” in the name of continued development. for the “win now” types, that’s probably not going to leave them with a nice, safe feelings in their stomachs. those are the people who are going to come on here and repeat Wang’s 2007 postseason stats, etc.

    to me, full steam ahead. you take the chance with the youth and hope that almost every single scout and baseball person out there is correct as to their potential. yes, you may be looking at Wang starting Game 1 of a postseason game but, frankly, there’s no option in existence that guarantees anyone anything, Santana or not.

    Of course, just my opinion.

    I agree that, going this far without having a pretty good idea that you’re going to sign Johan to an extension, would be pretty silly.

  60. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Paul V: would you like Pujols to play first base next year as well?

  61. EV December 3rd, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    All of you who are insisting on putting Moose in the pen are overreacting.

    You start out with Kennedy in the minors. I guarantee you that within 1 month he will be in the Bronx because someone – Moose, Wang, or Pettitte (or even possibly Hughes) – will be injured. It’s highly likely that with the 6 starters we have (whether it’s Santana or Hughes) one of them will always be injured and the other 5 will be pitching.

    No one has to move to the pen at all.

  62. MarkK December 3rd, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    I don’t think Pettite’s return changes the Santana pursuit at all. It is not 1998, and Andy is a very short term prospect. He’s adapted well to his age, and he would have won twenty last year with a decent pen, but neither he nor Wang is an ace. We need MLB’s ace.

    I’d like to see Pavano in the rotation next year. We’ve paid for the guy, and if he gets injured again, as he probably will, perhaps his arms and legs will fall off and he can give him coins at the street corner.

  63. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    I’d like to see Pavano in a chicken suit hawking some auto body shop along the highway in his hometown of Southington, Ct., or wherever the hell he’s from.

  64. Rob NY December 3rd, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    id like to see pavano bet it all on black and lose

  65. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    You know, I totally forgot about Pavano. Like it or not, we have him for one more year. How does he fit in? I guess there’s a small chance that he finally becomes useful, or is that just wishful thinking?

  66. EV December 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    Pavano had Tommy John surgery and is not expected to pitch until 2009. Forget about him, he’s done.

  67. EV December 3rd, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    And of course, don’t forget, there is always Kei Igawa.

  68. Yanksrule57 December 3rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven,

    I agree but most pitchers take a year to recover from TJ surgery. Pavano hasn’t exactly proven to be a quick healer. I believe he will not pitch again for the Yanks under this contract. They might try and resign him after next year to try and recoup some of their losses but I wouldn’t recommend that. The only reason he is not the worst signing in FA history is because his deal wasn’t as long as Hampton or kevin Brown.

  69. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:51 pm

    erik: I have plenty ideas on how a one-armed Pavano could be useful next year, but this is a family-friendly forum.

  70. Greg December 3rd, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Lets say we don’t trade for santana, and have a rotation of
    1.Wang
    2.Pettite
    3.Hughes
    4.Chamberlain/Moose
    5.Moose/Kennedy

    Keep Kennedy in the minors until the second half of the season, and then move chamberlain to the bullpen, so he can pitch the entire season and not break his innings cap

  71. erikp December 3rd, 2007 at 12:54 pm

    If Pavano doesn’t pitch at all this year there is no way they even consider re-signing him. There would be a fan-revolt… mutiny. Talk about throwing good money after bad…

  72. PB in DC December 3rd, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    The Yankees need Santana.
    The Red Sox want Santana.

    Pay the price, get the ace and then the Yankees can expect to be the slight favorites to win the AL East next year.

    If the Red Sox get Santana, you’d better start thinking about the wild card… and it’s freakin’ December. Ouch.

    They need to land Santana.

  73. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Pavano will sign another major league contract, i’m afraid. Someone will give this guy another shot. We won’t be that team, though.

  74. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    PB: So, by signing Johan Santana, we get a written affidavit from MLB saying that we’re guaranteed to make the post-season? I’ve never heard that kind of contract talk before.

    When it’s 2nd and 3rd for Yanks with two outs in the 5th in an important game, and A-Rod just struck out, will Santana come in and drive those runs home? I hope he can do that, since that’s what I saw our biggest problem as being last year. Guys not picking each other up in clutch situations. Teams that play 1-9 baseball do that.

  75. Curt December 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    Pull the offer ASAP! I didn’t like the deal whether Petitte came back or not. Santana is horrible at the big green bugar, and his little playoff history sucks! Also, Melky brings a chemistry to the team that will be lost if he is traded. Hughes needs to stay along with all the young pitching prospects. I think you rescind your offer, wait until next year, because without the Yankees, you can watch the RedSux back out too. If you want him that bad……WAIT!!!!!! Patience…patience…patience

  76. Tseng December 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    I still hold out hope Igawa will be useful to the Yankees in some way other than a minor leaguer.

  77. Rob NY December 3rd, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    Tseng December 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pm
    I still hold out hope Igawa will be useful to the Yankees in some way other than a minor leaguer.

    yeah… as a throw in for a trade for a quality reliever maybe

  78. ML December 3rd, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    MarkK,

    Congratulations. You’ve guaranteed that nothing you ever post here again will be taken seriously. Pavano??!!

  79. bri guy December 3rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    Can we start talking a little more seriously about acquiring Bedard? What do the yanks really need to do to make a serious run at this guy?

  80. PB in DC December 3rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    Mitchell’s Eleven,

    Not only did I not write that, I didn’t imply that.

    I wrote: If they have Santana, then if one was forced to pick a ‘favorite’ to win the AL East, I think the Yankees would be a SLIGHT favorite.

    If the Red Sox have Santana, then the Yankees, as presently constituted, can all but forget about the division and may as well focus on winning the wild card.

    Both comments were made to emphasize one point: If you’re the Yankees, you cannot let the Red Sox get Santana if your intention is to field a team that, on paper at least, is just about equal or better than everyone else in the division.

    Mitchell’s Eleven, the fact that read my comment and asked “PB: So, by signing Johan Santana, we get a written affidavit from MLB saying that we’re guaranteed to make the post-season?” says more about you than it does about my comment.

    If you think this Yankees team can be better than the Red Sux with the best left-handed pitcher at the top of their rotation and arguably the top 1-3 right-handed pitcher as their #2, then you’re deluding yourself… clutch-hitting abound or not.

    cheers

  81. Matthew Cohen December 3rd, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    I think that you do a 2/4 rotation.

    Pettite and Wang are full time starters.

    Joba, Hughes, Kennedy and Moose, you want to target for 180 innings or so so they each start 3/4 of the time and are int he pen 1/4 of the time.

  82. EV December 3rd, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    Matthew – That’s not going to work. Most starting pitchers (not just Moose) need to know when they are going to pitch so they can have some kind of actual routine. You don’t want to kill their arm by moving them back and forth.

  83. ML December 3rd, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    We’re not getting Bedard. Angelos never allows trades to go through, and there’s no way they are trading a young stud pitcher to the Yanks. Let’s just move on.

    If we don’t get Santana, we’re going to have to stand pat in the rotation. Cash will try to improve the bullpen and will move forward into 08.

    The reason for this is that now that teams have seen we are willing to give up Hughes, they will all demand him and settle for nothing less. And there’s no way we should give him up for Haren or Bedard or anyone else. I wouldn’t trade Hughes for those guys straight up. But I would trade him for Santana straight up.

    And that’s why you make this deal. Melky is not that big a loss (despite certain fans’ irrational love for him). As long as the 3rd player is not a stud, the deal should get done. If Minny wants to demand another stud, then the deal is off and we go into 08 with the kids.

  84. Paul V December 3rd, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    Mitchell’s 11, would you like to see Farnsworth the Wonder Horse setting up again?

    I say we pull our chips from the Santana deal and use some to get a top notch closer/setup guy.

    And no, I don’t want to see Pujols, even though your sarcasm was dimly appreciated here. I don’t really like him that much.

  85. PittsburghYankeeFan December 3rd, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    Great FA class of young SPs in 09. We can always make a play for CC Sabathia.

    However, Johan and the Yankees are made for each other, just like ARod and thr Yankees.

    This deal will happen. My guess is that it doesn’t involve Hughes at the end of the day. Boston would be better with Ben Sheets than Santana.

  86. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Paul V: dimly better than none at all.

    the problem with giving up too much for setup men is that you rarely know what you’re going to get from one year to another. Farnsy the Wonderboy is a perfect example.

    I actually like bringing the Viz back. i liked the idea of Riske, but that’s not an option anymore. if you must do this via trade, you don’t give up much, and Nathan costs too much.

    I think, again, we’re better off making some moves with solid, workmanlike guys, and supplementing that with our guys who are going to be stuck behind the current crop of young starting pitchers. maybe you find some revalations there.

  87. saucy December 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    put me down for option 1 and wishing they took hughes off the table in their santana offer.

  88. Ranting Guy December 3rd, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    Pavano .. Pavano …

    The absolute earliest I’ve heard he could be back is September and even that would be optimistic if not risky for his elbow. He’s done as a Yank.

    Since we’re paying for him anyways, why not add him to the Santana trade and let them offer him a 1 or 2 year contract at a much lower price, starting in ’09 (for their sake, a low base with layers of innings incentives & team options) when he’s supposedly going to be healthy.

    If he doesn’t pan out, they still got the offer that’s on the table now. On the other hand if they can somehow get a full season out of him then they got lucky … he could be a number 3-4 starter for them if he wasn’t such a train wreck.

    When the Yanks signed him, he was a little better than a career .500 pitcher except for that 18-8 season at Florida which had a lot to do with him getting signed here. He’s not a terrible pitcher, he’s just gotten injured at every possible juncture. The way I see it, the Twins could get lucky and NY have absolutely nothing to lose by adding him to the deal instead of adding another real prospect.

  89. Awolf1 December 3rd, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    New poster, huge Yanks fan here….I have held back from posting, but now I am ready to let it rip….

    With the Petitte news today, I say we take our chances and hope the Twins hold on to Santana. We go with a Wang-Pettite-Hughes-Chamberlain-IPK rotation for 2008. Keep Melky in CF. TRY Mussina in the BP again.

    Then in the offseason, we go after Santana as a free agent and basically he replaces Petitte. Lots of $ comes off the books after this year, and then we can hope that some of the younger guys are ready to take over for Giambi, Mitsui, Damon, Abreu, etc. We then spend $$$ on the bullpen or deal some lesser prospects for some mid-relief or even throw some $ at Teixeira.

    How about this 2008 lineup: Posada, Teixeira, Cano, Jeter, ARod, Mitsui, Cabrera, Austin Jackson/Tabata/Damon (one OF, one DH).

  90. Ranting Guy December 3rd, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    And of course, if Carl continues to be Carl, an incentive-laden contract with options would give Minny very little to lose.

    The rest would be the offer that stands today or tomorrow, which the Twins should be happy with in itself. Hopefully they balk at Hank’s take Hughes today or forget it deadline, then the deal gets backed off to Kennedy instead of Hughes.

  91. ML December 3rd, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    Guys,

    No one is taking Pavano off our hands. Keep dreaming.

    The problem with a lot of the scenarios put out there is that they do not consider what other teams want. The Twins want young, cheap players with upside. Pavano fills none of those criteria.

  92. Annie Savoy December 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Did you think I was kidding when I said the only trade for Santana should be ARod who has held-up the Yankee payroll like a bank robber? I wasn’t.

    Both Phillip Hughes and Melky Cabrera have proved them selves as Yankee team players.

    Arod hasn’t.

  93. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Awolf: absolutely let it rip on here. :)

  94. Awolf1 December 3rd, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    Thx Mitchell’s Eleven, I think you all will find me to be reasonable, knowledgeable and enthusiastic. I will admit one thing. I hate the Sox with a passion. :)

  95. Matthew Cohen December 3rd, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    I am not suggesting we randomly pick starters each night.

    You start the season with 5 starters, do that for 3 weeks and then swap out. You swap out starters every 3 weeks so that the other 4 starters keep their innings counts below 200.

  96. Nick in SF December 3rd, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    I’ve only had time to browse through the comments this morning, but from what I read I gather that we have a chance to get Jim Palmer? I don’t think you can pass up on that kind of talent, even if you have to give up some of the kids.

    P.S. Keith, “Let’s trade for Johan and then put him in the bullpen with Joba and Mariano and then we can make it a FOUR INNING GAME!!!” was the best thing I’ve read today.

  97. Mitchell's Eleven December 3rd, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    Awolf: I always say I hate the majority of Sox fans, plus guys like Schilling and Varitek, more than I could ever say I hate the team as a concept. It’s hard to hate the Sox of the 70′s and 80′s, and it’s hard not to admire some of real gamers that are on that team.

    We all think we’re reasonable on here….until we encounter each other. I’m pretty new here too and, hopefully, people can see that I can take it as well as I can give it. :)

  98. Bart December 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    Chamberlain impacts 40 – 60 games out of the pen — maybe vritually guranteeing a hold or a win

    He impacts 30 games as a starter — and coughs up innings to the the Fahrenheit 451 crew

    Out of the pen he makes every strater better — each of home can go hard early or at least whne needed

    He may be better than Mo —

    He loloks like a guy who can handle the tough spots – and get the daily (near daily) rush at the same time

    If you have a decent 4 or 5 keep him in the pen — 1-2-3-4-5 will be better for it — for 20 years

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