Girardi will have his say shortly
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 04, 2007 
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The managers not named Joe Torre all come to the Winter Meetings. They have interview sessions with the media, meetings to attend and on Wednesday there’s a luncheon with the writers who cover their teams.
We’re getting Joe Girardi in 90 minutes or so. Hopefully he’ll open up about his plans for 2008.
I’ll report back on what he had to say.
Can’t wait to hear Girardi’s take.
He`ll probably say nothing important but I`d like to know what he`s REALLY thinking
Repost:
Have we heard anything from Bobcat or Miller lately?
Ellen: nothing that we don’t already know.
Johan Santana is very good. Very good. But all of this has become so much bigger than life itself. I mean, go back a week on this thread, its just so funny, we had the cult of bobcat, then we had that the yankees were going to get him without hughes, then hughes was in, then the red soxs were in, then they were favorites, then we had hammerin hank and his deadline, then we had santana going to red soxs for mike greenwell and jody reed. Every minute everyone updates everyone with what is happening. I long for the days where I would be surprised that Bernie signed with the yankees, and that was way back in 98….
Migames I am with you. The thing that bothers me the most is that someone will post something and all of the sudden no matter who it is it becomes fact without any linkage or legitimate sourcing other than saying it is from so and so.
Although if you throw in Bruce Hurst I bet the Twins would make that deal for Jody Reed and Greenwell. lol
Isn’t it interesting how the highest paid manager in the game feels he owe’s nothing to his employer or his fans when it comes to showing up at these meetings when every other manager is there?
Maybe now we’ll have a pulse in the dug-out without it having to come from Shelly Duncan….
Hopefuly Girardi will say get a good pitcher for me or else I will take the mound.
I agree, migames, it’s getting to be too much. Just get it over with already, or at least have Santana not agree to the extension with the Sox.
I want to focus on MY team, the Yankees.
Thanks for all the updates, Pete!
Hes thinking he has 3 brilliant arms to mold for a AL East title in 2009-2010 and how to get the wild card for 2008
What’s up with Joe Torre not going to this. I mean was he not paid enough to be worth his while. I got a very arrogant feel out of him during the contract dealings and following it when he hit the press and this only confirms it to me. I know he never visited our Minors camps and centers either so it makes me wonder a bit. Still he gave us great years but this kind of confirms its time for someone more hungry…Go Get Em Joe G.
Maybe the Yankees can send Girardi to Bill Smith’s room and smack him around a little…
wishful thinking.
Any time I tell my wife a Joe Torre story I always have to refer to him as “The guy who always looks half-angry, half-asleep”.
Joe G’s gonna tell us how he cannot wait to instruct Joba and Phil to knock Manny & Papi on their asses!
hahah. i always laugh so hard when the camera’s focus on torre during the games and he’s sitting in the dugout with his eyes closed.
i really am gonna miss that…
According to ESPN’s Peter Gammons, the Red Sox and Twins are close to finalizing a Johan Santana trade after Boston added Ryan Kalish to the mix.
Dec. 4 – 3:47 pm et
I also recall how he wasn’t happy that he wasn’t at the after season meetings. Well why didn’t you go to the winter meetings? I’m sure the Yankees would have allowed you to go to those?
Mark my word, I will pay everyone on this blog 5 dollars each, if the Yankees each big three, Joba,Phil,Ian, each win atleast 14 games, the Yankees make the playoffs, and get past the division series. If not, I mark my word, we don’t have a #1 starter. I am a Yankee Fan, and I want to make the playoffs. I don’t want to rebuild. I want to make the playoffs.
According to ESPN’s Peter Gammons, the Red Sox and Twins are close to finalizing a Johan Santana trade after Boston added Ryan Kalish to the mix.
Gammons says it’d be a 5-for-1, and with Kalish in the deal, it only makes sense that the Twins would be taking Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. If Jacoby Ellsbury was involved, the Twins probably wouldn’t be asking for the additional center field prospect. Like Lowrie and Masterson, Kalish ranks comfortably among Boston’s top 10 prospects. He is much further away from the majors than the others.
Joe looked like he was sitting on a tack. To put it nicely.
Peter…I for one, think it is not funny that you are calling out Joe Torre for not being at the meetings. The man deserves more respect than that. I know he has earned it. IMO.
According to Peter Gammons the deal with the Red Sox is all but done:
According to ESPN’s Peter Gammons, the Red Sox and Twins are close to finalizing a Johan Santana trade after Boston added Ryan Kalish to the mix.
Gammons says it’d be a 5-for-1, and with Kalish in the deal, it only makes sense that the Twins would be taking Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. If Jacoby Ellsbury was involved, the Twins probably wouldn’t be asking for the additional center field prospect. Like Lowrie and Masterson, Kalish ranks comfortably among Boston’s top 10 prospects. He is much further away from the majors than the others.
I want to win the world series.
Okay, so how many more people are going to post what the Red Sox shill has said?
Yea we all know the Winter Meetings are a crapshoot anyway.
Sunny, I do too
Other people don’t. I’m not rooting for the Devil Rays and want to rebuild or something
I pay for season tickets to see the Yankees win. I pay part of this 200billion payroll and don’t wnat to miss the playoffs becuase we can’t get a pitcher past the 3rd inning.
Yankee’s have a new Stadium in ’09 and the RedSox are going to have a SP rotation that will dominate for years to come.. nothing like opening a new stadium totally dominated by the redsox in ’07 .. and for the first few years of the new stadium.. yes this is speculation.. but almost everything said here is..
I can tell you one thing for sure.. I am NOT letting the RedSox obtain Santana at any cost. .given the circumstances.
I’m going .. “hughes, melky, horne, gonzalez, and another B” .. you absolutely have to, if the Yankees want to make a splash this year ending the historical Yankee Stadium… they need to do what they have to, to win the 07 WS.
In a manner of speaking, a number one starter or ace is not completely different from a stopper, or someone who stops a losing streak. The Yankees have a stopper on their staff. And his name is Andy Pettitte. He’s the guy that they can always depend on to stop the bleeding. I know that Andy is no Santana, but he’s still pretty darn good. Excuse my language.
As I said in last thread, it’s clear that Hughes/Cabrera trumps Lester/Crisp. Why not package 2-3 minor leaguers who match up favorably with the bosux 3-5. This most recent guy is from the very low minors. We have guys down there (Laird, for example) who we can put together with the former Attorney General, Fortenberry or Hilligoss. And there are others. Do not understand the stubborness. It is time to get creative so that the balance of power does not shift for the next 5 years.
It’s just ridiculous that they’re taking a bunch of spare parts for Johan Santana while asking for top guys from the Yanks.
Everyone tune in to “Basbeall Tonight” tonight to hear Peter Gammons call Ryan Kalish the next Willie Mays.
agreed fleas…Johan can be our future in the new stadium along with Joba and Ian. Phil can be their future in their stadium. These 3 prospects of ours aren’t in the HOF yet. Boston realized that Lester and Ellsbury weren’t in the HOF so put them on the table. Brian Cashman isn’t in the HOF and needs to do something before he is fired.
Wasn’t Gammons the same guy that said Santana wasn’t worth three Yankee players. Now it’s up to five Sox players and he’s probably busting a nut thinking about how good the deal is..
“As I said in last thread, it’s clear that Hughes/Cabrera trumps Lester/Crisp. Why not package 2-3 minor leaguers who match up favorably with the bosux 3-5.”
Because the twins were asking for a 3 and a 4 that were better than what the Sox were offering…in addition to getting a 1/2 that were better.
bphill
December 4th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Mark my word, I will pay everyone on this blog 5 dollars each
Either u must be really really rich or u r under estimating the traffic to this blog. Which one is it???
Peter Gammons is brainwashed ever since his cancer sorry to be mean but he needs to be fired. ESPN fired Mike Irvin, now fire baseballs most biased player ever.
5 for one makes it more sellable to the Minnesota fans. Let’s just remember that the Red Sox have a history of messing with successful chemistry. After 2004 they traded their starting shortstop Cabrera and to this day they still haven’t found a good replacement. Yes they’ve made some good moves, ie getting Beckett, but I think they are on the verge of making change for change sake and to counteract the Yankees. Moves like that do not work long term. I’m still not convinced Johan will sign, but I’d rather be the team with the 3 young gun prospect arms then the one counting on the pricey veterans.
everyone is forgetting how sick our team was last season. sure we lost in the ds, but all teams lose here and there. we have a new manager and the same team as last season. the young arms are developing and will be effective in the pen and rotation.
NYY…I was planning on stealing it from the revenue Boston gets by winning the world series.
i refuse to believe any BS gammons writes. he’s the dictator of RSN, and of course he’s gonna leak rumors that the deal is “all but done”.
dont believe everything you hear. throwing 10 low-level prospects won’t land you santana. it’s ellsbury or buchholz (on top of lester, who is a weak offering) or nothing.
Pete needs to get that guys ip, I want to make sure I get paid.
same here, i want my $5.
Some of you folks have to stop whining.
Really, Brian Cashman should be fired over this? Why, because he won’t give up the entire system for Santana?
I know, the Red Sox are going to win the next 5 WS. If you are that sure, buy some lottery tickets for tonight.
Some of you really need to chill out.
I don’t know, call me crazy but, you still have to play the games.
Does the deal make the Red Sox better? Yes. Does it mean the season is “over”? No.
per mlbtraderumors.com
Whozat, I agree, and if they have already tried to do it with quanity, so be it. But I vae not read anywhere that they tried to offer up that kind of packge. I think they should try if they haven’t.
Gammons has been a shill forever, and I think part of the reason bosux prospects are overvalued is because he does it for them
and everyone should bookmark this link…
http://tinyurl.com/ypf552
Well said sj44
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Red Sox reacquired Casey Fossum, just so they could include him in this lopsided deal, too.
What makes some of you think the Yankees haven’t given the Twins multiple options?
Some of you make it sound like the Yankees didn’t try to acquire the guy.
The bottom line is, the Twins didn’t want to do the deal with the Yankees unless they got more from the Yankees.
They seem to now want a 5 for 1 deal to try and sell quantity and not quality to their fan base.
Phil Hughes was clearly the best player either team offered up in the trade.
Seems to me the Twins want a better deal from the Yankees than the Red Sox.
Dan – Most definitely. I think that will come in handy.
How much longer until Boston is over the luxury tax limit?
this rookie gm is the bigges idiot known to man if he accepts a trade without ellsbury or buchholz.
All these rumors flying around and not one about the Yanks in the mix for anyone. What are we doing? They dont leak what we are doing?
Gammons is reporting DiceKs massage therapist may be going to the twins also
SJ44,
So you don’t think the Yankees overplayed their hand?
What do you think is a reasonable time frame for us to see Alan Horne and Austin Jackson develop into impact players at the major league level?
IMO if their development doesn’t happen in the next 3 years, the Yanks wasted an opportunity here.
Hopefully this turns out to be 2004 for the initial loser of the sweepstakes. Everyone figured we were unstoppable with A-Rod after the Sox were lambasted for not landing him. Maybe the shoe is on the other foot this time around.
1. Young pitchers will have more experience under their belt this time
2. You don’t expect to have an insane rash of injuries all at once at the beginning of the year
3. Everyone won’t be in a hitting slump all at once 4. Odds are that Lowell & Beckett had career years and won’t replicate the same success
That being said, I don’t want to be down 3-0 in the ALCS .vs the Sox to prove my point.
I am guessing 2009. When the Santana contract kicks in and they replace Manny.
According to Baseball Prospectus, Kalish makes it 4 of Boston’s top 7 players under 25. Shouldn’t we be talking about how Cashman played Theo into giving up yet another high ceiling talent? Does that just work the other way?
I simply am saying they should try with quantity if they have not already done so. If they have, ok. Yeah, they want more from the Yankees. Everyone does. Well, give them more by giving them a potential ace, a starting CF and then give them 3 good– not great– prospects. If they have already done that or decided that with Andy coming back they do not want to trade PH, fine. But if they still think JS is worth offering PH for, then give them some quantity too. Again, this is assuming they have not already done so.
Even though its Gammons, this is what he’s saying, as of an hour ago…
3:28 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Twins and Red Sox are getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the trade proposal — outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in the 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.).
Mister Delaware – I agree. If Cash traded away 4 of the Yanks top 7 players, people would be furious.
I just hope this whole thing doesn’t put too much pressure on the young pitchers next year. Or too much that they can’t handle.
From the Globe’s Nick Cafardo (3:37 p.m.): “We’ve said here all along that the Los Angeles Angels have the ability to make any deal they desire because they have the chips to make it happen. If they have jumped into the Johan Santana hunt, they pose a real threat to the Red Sox and Yankees for Santana’s services. The Angels have extra pitching, so they’re able to offer a major league-ready starting pitcher like Ervin Santanta or Jered Weaver as well as a host of positional players – anyone from Howie Kendrick to catcher Jeff Mathis, infielder Brandon Wood, outfielder Reggie Willits, and even Gary Mathews Jr.”
“I do not believe the Yankees are out of the Santana hunt yet.”
can we make a list of everyone here who is conceding the 2008 season in December of 2007, so that when the yankees are in the hunt next year, i won’t have to listen to anything they say?
so far i have fleas, bphill, and kasey.
deal?
Please don’t ruin peoples other peoples doom and gloom comments with your logic filled analisys and your well thought out opinions. We have no room for that today sir.
hey, does anyone know if Gammons said the Sox would add Ryan Kalish?
Dear bphill,
Please mail the check for $5 as soon as possible. Thanks for ur generosity.
PS. I bookmarked ur post.
I say good. Let Boston start dealing with huge contract pitchers on the downsides of their careers for a while. God knows we’ve had our share.
Not saying Santana doesn’t have a few good years left in him, but there are a lot of innings on that arm already and he’s already had his peak.
Let’s see…..Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish.
5 for 1. Usually, you do 5 for 1 deals because there is not one player in the deal who is a real stud. That’s the case here.
Why would the Twins accept this deal? Regardless of numbers, the deal is still light for the twins.
Crisp and Cabrera are the same players, accept Melky is making 1/10th the money.
Please Twins fans, don’t brainwash yourself with the belief that Lester is Hughes. If the Yankees offered Phil Hughes for Jon Lester straight up, the Red Sox would JUMP at that deal.
Masterson is the Jeff Marquez of the Yankees farm system. Alan Horne is a better prospect.
Jed Lowrie. Good player. Good player to have in the deal.
Kalish is the same as if the Yankees put a kid like Laird or Snyder in the deal. Too far off to have ANY idea what kind of player he will be.
The deal has no Ian Kennedy, Alan Horne or Austin Jackson type players in it.
It also doesn’t have anybody with the ceiling of Phil Hughes.
So, aside from whining, the question is, what do you do if you are the Yankees?
If you up the offer, the most I go is Horne. If that’s not enough, there is nothing you can do.
hmmm,
Yes, Ryan Kalish is the 5th player.
why not sign Kuroda to fight with Daisuke?
Mister Delaware to the brain surgeons on this site and guys like the Maddog it only works one way.
people want to trade Ajax like he is nothing without ever seeing him play…
It is not a good idea to trade 4 or 5 very good prospects for anyone especially a guy you are going to pay an additional $20 + mill a yr for 6 yrs….
I will take the Yanks as is over the nexy 5 yrs….We will see how our prospect work out.. Hughes will be 26 in 5 yrs. AJAx I think 25,,,,
Bob here is the salary breakdown to hit the limit for luxary t ax:
148 Mill in 2007
155 in 2008
162 in 2009
170 in 2010
178 ini 2011
The Red Sox payroll according to Cots in 2007 was 143 million but they increased some players already and also have to deal with signing or arbritration of others like Pappelbon, Youk etc
The Red Sox are said to have two offers on the table, one involving center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, and the other involving pitcher Clay Buchholz. The Twins are said to prefer a package that would net them two pitchers, though they still value Ellsbury highly.
http://www.northjersey.com/pag.....FlZUVFeXk2
What freeagent pitchers do we think will be avaliable in 2009…any chance CC is avaliable then?
Great point Mister Delaware – Cashman should be applauded, not crucified if the Latin Lefty goes North.
I’m making my list now…..
“Again, this is assuming they have not already done so.”
this has been going on for 5 straight days.
don’t you think that the Yankees have tried dozens of different combinations?
or do you think Cashman and Smith are just sitting in a room with the same offers and staring at each other waiting for the first person to blink?
Brendon – CC might be available at the trade deadline depending on what kind of extension Santana gets.
Hmmm,
Sounds like a plan.
Drive,
I think Jackson is the starting CF in 2009. If he isn’t starting by Opening Day, he will be in the majors at some point during the season. He is coming along that quickly. Plus, he’s only 20 years old.
Horne? Perhaps they see him as a bullpen option this year. I don’t know for sure with him though.
Here’s the thing. We don’t know if Hughes, Cabrera and Horne are enough for Santana, from the Twins perspective.
I know I wouldn’t include Jackson or Kennedy in the deal.
And another things how many times do you hear the saying, “The best trades are the one’s you don’t make.”
SJ44,
I agree. They could add Horne and even throw in a lower level prospect.
Perhaps if they even included a Jeff Karstens instead of a Horne, it could get the Twins attention. I don’t see where Karstens fits into the Yankee plans.
Phil Hughes saved?
SJ44, i want to be like you. seriously.
kade714@yahoo.com
I know its not the end of the world, but why do I feel sick to my stomach thinking about the sox with santana AND keeping their top prospects??
“The Red Sox are said to have two offers on the table, one involving center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, and the other involving pitcher Clay Buchholz. The Twins are said to prefer a package that would net them two pitchers, though they still value Ellsbury highly.”
well now, this changes everything, doesn’t it?
if this is true, and i completely doubt that it is, EVERYTHING we have read up to this point has been bullcrap.
Buchholz? that makes a lot more sense than a package centered around Lester.
I would drive Horne to the airport myself if it got that deal done.
“The Angels have extra pitching, so they’re able to offer a major league-ready starting pitcher like Ervin Santanta or Jered Weaver as well as a host of positional players – anyone from Howie Kendrick to catcher Jeff Mathis, infielder Brandon Wood, outfielder Reggie Willits.”
not to mention Adenhart and Saunders.
Those are some good players.
Boston Dave:
Because this sucks.
From SJ44
“Seems to me the Twins want a better deal from the Yankees than the Red Sox.”
I couldn’t agree more on that comment.
The thing is, I don’t understand why teams still do this. It seems like the Yankees have ALWAYS (since the dynasty of the late ’90′s began) had to give up the most in talent to other teams for trades.
I can understand some teams having reservations about dealing with the Yankees and making ‘the beast’ stronger without getting a top package in return.
But, the Red Sox ARE CLEARLY the team to beat in the American League. Why the Twins view a package of Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and now this fifth-nobody-prospect over a Yankees package consisting of Phil Hughes (a top rated young pitcher, well over Lester), a Melky, CF with some upside, as opposed to Crisp, who has been in decline for two straight years, and costs $10M more.
The Twins are about to make the Sox a team to be reckoned with for the next five to seven years.. Even by sending him to the Yankees, in 2008, INHO, they would still be on a level with the Sox, Angels, Tigers and maybe a surprise-breakout team. I didnt see the Yankees getting Johan and it making the THE BEST TEAM ON PAPER BY-FAR. It would make them a serious contender with a slew of other teams.
But by the Twins getting bentover and giving the Sox an ACE like Johan (for a projected number 3 and a crap CFer owed $10M) puts Boston on a different plane…
The Red Sox will be scary over the next half decade, I’m afraid to report, if this thing goes through… Sure, we’ll contend here in NYY, but the Sox…
yikes
a plea: please, yankees, please, make no panic moves.
a question: do folks think the red sox will actually put up the dough to sign santana to the deal he’s supposedly seeking?
It would be really helpful if someone who had any knowledge about our prospects would tell Mike and Dog about then (but then again they are all knowing. They seem to have no clue. Just said that Austin Jackson is 3 years away from MLB. It is painful to hear them talk to the millions they talk to and I learn more from reading this blog then their show and their supposed experts
Remember, there is no deal yet.
No reason to be sick.
For all the talk today, nothing has been decided.
Looks like Smith is still trying to shop for a better offer.
At this point, the Yankees should move on. If he goes to Boston, deal with it.
You can’t throw away 3 years of work in rebuilding the system for one guy. Even a guy as good as Santana.
Just can’t do it.
Is it too early to buy a Save the Big Three T-shirt? If we lose Santana to Boston, might we move Hughes for anoher big arm? Tough to say. I think Hughes has only escaped this wave – there may be another…
ESPN NEWS UPDATE WITH THE SANTANA…….
Angels have made an offer to the Twins, Brandon Wood involved in deal.
Yanks out
http://www.nj.com/news/index.s.....talks.html
Cumberbun,
You don’t think the sox already know the ballpark $$$ it will take for santana?they will sign him. If he accepts the trade, done deal
Brandon Wood + who else I wonder…
steve –
i think hughes will only be on the table for santana. PH is valued too highly to be traded for a lesser pitcher…
“But, the Red Sox ARE CLEARLY the team to beat in the American League. ”
maybe this is why they’d rather deal him to Boston.
trading him to the Yankees basically kills the Twins’ shot at the Wildcard.
i don’t know.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 3:26pm: The Yankees, who rarely have kept their word lately, have closed the door on Johan talks.
Above From MLBTRADERUMORS.COM
Gayle,
Do yourself a big favor and don’t waste your time listening to Mike and the Mad Dog and Michael Kay re: this trade.
These guys don’t know the Yankee farm system, aren’t interested in learning about it and are just in the business of generating phone calls.
You do that by sayins stupid stuff (which they all excel at) and that is their shows in a nutshell.
If they made the trade, they would complain about the Yankees being gluttons. If they don’t make the trade, they whine like some of the people here.
Unfortunately, you will receive more accurate information about the Yankee farm system from folks on this blog than you will from talk radio.
Sports talk radio has become a vast wasteland of nothing.
The only thing you will “learn” on talk radio is the Yankees shouldn’t bother competing in 2008 if they get Johan Santana.
Its the “beauty” of these clowns being able to make predictions with no ramifications to them.
Hughesian Bias, it’s funny that you could cut and paste part of an article and mysteriously get some of the information incorrect. Nowhere in that article does it state that Buchholz is included in any of the offers.
Well, at least we know we can have Pettitte for another 10 years.
http://tinyurl.com/2nbq9e
I’m soory, but my hair hurts thinking about a $200mil payroll with no ace and no help in the bullpen.
agreed Drive
raymagnetic, you need to read. i missed the quotation marks but i realized that after the post. it’s the third paragraph in the article.
i don’t believe it either, i’m just showing you that it’s out there.
Who is to say they won’t have help in the bullpen?
I doubt the Yankees won’t do anything.
Just because its been, “All Santana all the time”, doesn’t mean they don’t have other irons in the fire.
can Roger still pitch?
PB in DC
December 4th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
JUST HEARD ON WEEI BOSTON
Rob Bradford a reporter for a newspaper in MA (or RI, I don’t know) just reported on WEEI (Boston) that the Twins have told the Red Sox that they want to get the deal done and finalized by the end of the day today.
He went on to say and I’m trying to quote him here, “the only wild card is if the Yankees come in and forget about the deadline from yesterday and include Ian Kennedyâ€.
Bradford then said, the feeling now in the afternoon at winter meetings is that EVERYONE (execs, gms, baseball people in general) is all of sudden saying if you have a chance to get Johan Santana, then you do whatever it takes to get it done…. he then said you don’t let one good but not superior prospect hold up the deal (kennedy).
FYI
Good. Now we can do something about the bullpen.
“I’m soory, but my hair hurts thinking about a $200mil payroll with no ace and no help in the bullpen.”
so start thinking of Joba as your ace.
live with a little uncertainty. this is what it feels like rooting for the 29 other teams.
and the bullpen will be ok. they’ll find enough arms in their system to piece it together.
the biggest bullpen upgrade happened a month ago when Torre left.
I think/HOPE Cashman & Hank re-discover their ability to be logical and MAN UP to WIN THIS over the Red Sox and get the best pitcher in baseball.
Period.
Is that chill and laid back enough for you Peter Abe?
Pleeeeeeze, what a fraud. The fans should be anything but chill when you’re talking about the Red Sox getting ANOTHER Cy-Young caliber ace.
Cash: Get the deal done.
Everyone can try to rationalize this all they want to, but the Red Sox are going to trade for and then sign Santana.
When that happens you can kiss the division good-bye for the next three years or so. Not trading for Santana for a price of Hughes (granted has ace POTENTIAL) Cabrera,( a league average outfielder) Jackson ( hyped off a half season breakout) and Horne (almost 25 at Double AA) is a horrible mistake.
And on top of that we’re stuck with another headline grabbing, irrational Steinbrenner running the Yankees. Can’t wait to give up Hughes and Kennedy for Dan Haren. Great!
Wow, I’m bitter.
Boston Dave — I suspect you’re right. It’s becoming a much different organization up there in Beantown…
actually, now that you mention it, it is wrong. i saw it on a RS blog after someone posted it.
“The Red Sox are said to have two offers on the table, one involving center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury, and the other involving pitcher Clay Buchholz.”
it was a typo. the article did say buchholz, and they must’ve fixed it by now.
Not my fault!
http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2.....ntana.html
scroll all the way to the bottom.
SJ
I am sick in anticipation
I wish you all knew what its like to live in Boston as a diehard yanks fan…
SJ,
I can’t see Horne out of the coming out of the pen. As you and I discussed during the ’07 season, Horne blows people away with a large repetoire of pitches; that obviously would make him best suited for the rotation. I guess if the Yanks get desperate for bullpen help they could try him in the ‘pen, but I just see that as a waste of his talent. And I am very happy that thus far the Yanks have declined to include Horne in any deals.
Last year our rotation got a late season boost from Hughes and Kennedy. Next year, I think our bullpen could get a similar and unexpected boost from young arms like Horne, Sanchez, Melancon, Whelan, Robertson, Veras, Ohlendorf and maybe the dude from the Nats. Maybe even Edwar Ramirez or Chris Britton…
If the bullpen completely implodes (which I doubt it will), the Yankees have the luxury of having Joba Chamberlain battle-tested and capable of closing in a pinch.
Can we talk about someone elese, please?
Two words: D – Train… (well, a letter and a word).
Dontrelle Willis
First off, I think he could be had (AND THIS IS OPEN FOR RIDICULE! PLEASE! JUMP RIGHT IN!) for a three player package, a poor mans Johan type deal:
Ready— IPK, Horne, and Brett Gardner.
Is it overpaying? Willis has been in decline since his Cy Young campaign… Or is it not enough? The NYY and Marlins have made a lot of trades, and always seem fair with each other.
Fact is, he is a young LHP, witha ring, a great ra-ra clubhouse attitude, and while coming from a pitcher’s paradise of a park, he could fare well in NYY, under Girardi, and Eiland, with pros like Mo, AP, and Moose to learn from, and young guys all around him, like Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain.
Having a three of Phil, Joba and D Train to build around isn’t that bad.
Dontrelle was said to be off the radar until he surfaced today with Miggy Cabrera BOTh going to the Tigers for Miller, Maybin and a slew of prospects.
I say the Yanks can get D Train, revive him in NYY, work with his delivery, and get him while keeping Phil Franchise and Joba the Hutt.
What does Fla covet? SP and OF.
Any takers
I am very torn on this right now. I think that this is for the best long term, but short term it kinda sucks.
The Yankees have essentially resigned themselves to finishing second in the AL East for at least the next three years (conservative estimate). That is a helluva price to pay to keep austin jackson and alan horne.
i suppose this is karma for a 100 years of beating up on the rest of baseball. the baseball gods are giving yankees’ fans a dose of their own medicine. and it does not taste good.
hughesian bias there is nothing in the article that states Buchholz is part of any package the Twins are considering from the Red Sox. Nothing. In fact this is the whole article.
PB, if everyone in baseball thinks that teams should do whatever it takes to get Johan, then why would the Twins try to finalize a deal with the Sox today? Wouldnt they shop around a little more, esp. given that the Angels, a team with tons of trade bait, are apparently interested?
Makes no sense. I think there’s much more to this than what we’ve seen so far.
i have faith that horne would be a good temporary BP guy. same as joba was this year. maybe not as god-like, but you know…
Pete,
The debeate isnt whether yankee fans over-value melky cabrera – anyone can see that. I havce
no willis please !
B”radford then said, the feeling now in the afternoon at winter meetings is that EVERYONE (execs, gms, baseball people in general) is all of sudden saying if you have a chance to get Johan Santana, then you do whatever it takes to get it done”
that’s a silly attitude.
what about Joba, Hughes, and Cano?
there is always a limit.
Phil Hughes is very close that limit without throwing Kennedy on top of it.
if the Yankees weren’t right to value Kennedy, the Twins wouldn’t keep asking for him.
2 sides to look at it.
Shamus,
I wouldn’t trade for Dontrelle even if you were holding a gun to my head.
yea raymagnetic, i already told you, they had buchholz’ name in there before, but it was a typo and they fixed it. i saw it on a RS blog.
my apologies for posting it!
Willis is not (or should not be) an option.
I heard the Braford dude on the radio here in Boston just now, and he did say the Twins were looking to get it down tonight. I also heard that the Angels have moved in with an offer centered around Weaver & Wood. I’d have to think a Weaver/Wood deal is a better starting point than the Sox. With that in mind, it could be that the Angels are the reason why Bradford said the Sox will include a 5th player in the deal. Some low ball OF’er with a wierd last name that escapes me. He said the Twins really like Lester for some reason. I can’t see why personally.
Boston Dave,
I lived there for three years (2003, 2004, 2005). I know what its like. My brother lives there also. I think you just need to realize that the sun will rise again tomorrow morning.
In all seriousness, how could things get any better for Boston sports right now?
Poor, poor management by the New York franchises. We’re getting our asses beat all over the place by Boston teams, and I am really pissed about it.
I hear you, I live in Boston too. The yahdoods would LOVE Santana. Where’s your bunker? Want to share?
Willis would get killed in the AL. He has sucked for quite some time now in the NL.
Rob Bradford is the beat Sox writer for the Herald, a similar compasion to the Post’s George King, all rumors, no substance.
Tony Assarotty is their coumlnist. Makes for good kindling when lighting the fire…
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Santana to Boston trade got held up at the 72 hour window. I don’t know why, but I just can’t buy into the Red Sox interest.
Hmmmm,
Great Post….The fact that the Yankees are underdogs is actually not a bad thing…makes it more fun to watch if they do win it all. They still have a good shot at this, One of Joba or Hughes could easily emerge as the Ace everyone is crying for. Maybe even both, they do project as such.
Im just amazed that one second he wants to retire,the next second he wants to pitch for another 10 years. Clemens has rubbed off on him the wrong way and its just tiring for a fan to go through.
Andy is a great guy from what i read. But him needing the Yanks to begg him to comeback is rediculous.
Clemens drama is gone. I hope Pettite doesnt take his place.
willis is like nomo…i wouldnt want him near anything
I’d be very curious to hear Joe Girardi share his thoughts on the Dontrelle Willis he coached in 2006.
“Bradford then said, the feeling now in the afternoon at winter meetings is that EVERYONE (execs, gms, baseball people in general) is all of sudden saying if you have a chance to get Johan Santana, then you do whatever it takes to get it done…. he then said you don’t let one good but not superior prospect hold up the deal (kennedy).”
Okay let me see if I understand this. A radio personality in Boston thinks the Yankees should include not only Hughes but Ian Kennedy also in the deal for Johan?
What else would you expect a Boston radio personality to say?
the yankees still have the highest payroll. until that changes, they will never be considered underdogs.
if the yankees aren’t willing to spend their farm and their money on a number 1 pitcher then they need to reorganize their priorities. pitchers like santana are not available that frequently, if ever.
Guys, don’t panic. The Yankees are designed to win regular season games as currently constructed. They’ll be in the 90-100 win category as is. It’s the playoffs we all fret, which is understandable. Remember though, nothing is guaranteed. I happen to like the fact that the Yankees are not overpaying, and are going to stick with Hughes.
I want Santana as much as anyone, but I’ll go to war with Hughes-Joba-Kennedy-Andy-Wang plus the best 1-9 in the league any day of the week.
Boston can bring it.
Boston Dave
December 4th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
SJ
I am sick in anticipation
I wish you all knew what its like to live in Boston as a diehard yanks fan…
Dave– I ahve it even worse. I live in the Redneck Backyard of Red Sox Nation, Maine, where there’s a Sox bumper sticker or a Yankees Suck bumper sticker on the tailgate of all seven of the cars in every front yard.
They are dancing in the streets up here. The unpaved, dirt streets…Someone save me…
VOIII,
i agree with your stance. we could have no aces out of the big 3, or we could have 3 aces out of the big 3.
let’s just wait and see.
hmmmmm, (the poster, not the sound)
two things:
1. I was only trying to convey what the reporter on the scene was saying the overwhelming, general sentiment is.
2. If you heard it, you would know that he meant WITHIN REASON. IE, you wouldn’t trade Arod, Joba and Cano for Santana.
In other words, why would you let one prospect like Kennedy hold up the deal if you’re so close to getting a guy that makes you a contender for the next 5 years.
Nick Cafardo from the Boston Globe just told Michael Kay he thinks the Red Sox would be happy if someone stepped up and signed Santana. hey really don’t want the contract but they had to get involved when the Yankees did.
“The Yankees have essentially resigned themselves to finishing second in the AL East for at least the next three years (conservative estimate). ”
add “berra8″ to the list.
I agree with the general sentiment being echoed by some here. With Phil the phuture is bright man! Johan schmohan!
Pete,
The debeate isnt whether yankee fans over-value melky cabrera – anyone can see that. I have been saying it for over a yr now. The debate is whether Lester can even compare to Hughes. Hughes did better in his major league stint than lester. Hughes did far, far better in the minors than Lester – its not even close. Hughes was also ranked the number one pitching prospect in the world. Lester was NOT! I know our opinions matter little but what about the opnions of all the scouts and baseball prospectus? Do the twins take that into account when they trade off their most valuable asset. And coco doing horribly the last two yrs and making 10 million to Melkys better numbers and under one million in salary make melky little better in my eyes and Im sure in most others that look at the situation objectively as well. Im trying to see what the twins are thinking and the only thing i can come up with is this: The twins are bluffing that they like the sux offer better to force the yankees to throw in kennedy or two high level prospects. I would take hughes out, put cano and kennedy in and ask what prospect gets this deal done. Now, that the twins claim they would take ellsbury and prospects, we know that they dont NEED a major league ready ace. I say offer cano and kennedy and see what we need to throw in to finish this deal off. We can give up hughes and kennedy but we can easily afford to give up cano kennedy and melky if we buy a replacement in center. Obviously the twins are hungry for quanity over quality and cano would be one of the best hitters on the team and prolly has a better future than ellsbury.
Dave,
I spend a lot of time in Boston, I know what you mean.
I will have a nephew playing in the Cape next season, who is a very good prospect.
I will wear my Yankee gear (just as I do every time I am in Boston) proudly and tick those folks off to no end!
I have no problem with “uncertainty”. But, let’s qualify that a bit.
The Yankees “uncertainty” is much better than other teams.
What folks don’t realize is just how good the young arms are in the system. Its more than just Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain.
Guys like Sanchez, Melancon, Horne, Scott Patterson (a sleeper for the ‘pen) are just some of the names to watch.
I can see why the organization is loathe to give up those guys. Mainly, because they don’t have to be great for them to win games because the offense is so good.
There is a long way to go before spring training. Its not like the Yankees will stop trying to improve the team if they don’t get Santana.
Can we just look forward to actually maybe developing a LIKEABLE team? No one was confident when skinny Derek Jeter was deep in the hole and everyone cried fowl when Constantino Martinez replaced Mattingly. Relax…Andrew Eugene Pettitte didnt actually instill confidence the first time he took the mound
raymagentic,
Bradford is NOT a radio personality. He is a reporter for a newspaper (the Boston Hearld, I think)… I dont think he has a vested stake in screwing the Yankees… nor do I think he has any authority in the matter whatsoever.
I’m not saying that I put my life’s savings on the comments, just telling you what was being said.
He is at the Winter Meetings… are we?
I thought not.
1022.2 career IP for Dontrelle Willis
25 years old.
They took a 20 year old and pushed him to pitch an average of 200 IP every year for 5 straight seasons.
Welcome to the big leagues D-Train.
Wow, so many Yankees fans from Boston in here. I’m Boston born and raised. I hate the Yahoo’s here in Boston who are obsessed with everything New York. I’ve had strangers curse me for wearing my Yankees hat in town. It was great when some schmuck(s) would yell at me and my bud for wearing our Yankees stuff, and we could just chant “1918″ and clap at them. Not anymore my friends. 80(
For all of you living in Beantown,
Imagine what it was like for all the Bostonians to watch the Yankees kick their ass for 89 years…Imagine what it was like for them to watch Bucky F’ing Dent’s HR…Imagine what it was like to watch Bill Buckner’s imfamous between the legs mishap…The fact that you are Yankee fans and have watched your team win so may times should bring great joy and comfort. I know that Bostons fans are obnoxious. But you root for the greatest franchise in the history of sports!!!! That hasn’t changed and in fact you can count on this team rising to the top again. The Steinbrenner family will not let this ship sink….
The “we have to do everything possible to keep him from Boston” logic makes me a little nauseous.
I am so late.
“1. I was only trying to convey what the reporter on the scene was saying the overwhelming, general sentiment is.”
oh, i know. i wasn’t addressing that to you. i was addressing it to the person you quoted.
“In other words, why would you let one prospect like Kennedy hold up the deal if you’re so close to getting a guy that makes you a contender for the next 5 years.”
but that’s the wrong way to look at it.
it’s not Kennedy that held up the deal. it is HUGHES that held up the deal.
let say the yankees were offering Hughes and Joba and the Twins then asked for Jackson too. can you say “why would you let Jackson stand in the way of getting Santana?”
no. it’s the TOTAL of the package that got to be too much. it’s silly to point to Kennedy and say he was the reason. the reason was that the yankees were VERY reluctant to trade Hughes. the Twins asking for Kennedy ON TOP of Hughes crossed their limit.
it wasn’t Kennedy, it was Hughes + Kennedy + Melky + having to find and pay a CFer + the insane contract for Santana + the luxury tax on Santana and the CFer.
at some point it’s too much risk to invest all of that in one pitcher.
any bobcat sitings?
From the Globe’s Gordon Edes (4:39 p.m.): “The Newark Star Ledger just reported that the Yankees are out of the running for Johan Santana. One Sox source said he was skeptical that was the case. The Twins, meanwhile, have outrighted a player off their 40-man roster, the kind of move that often takes place before a trade, as they try to create roster space. The Commissioner, Peter Gammons, says a fifth player may be in the package that the Sox would give the Twins for Santana, minor league outfielder Ryan Kalish, but my Sox sources could not confirm that. The Sox people I’m talking to say they’re still waiting.”
SJ:
I just need to tell you, I love the optimism coming from you, it really is wonderful and makes me really happy
Thank you!
Looks to me like this is going to go on for awhile, the Twinkies are milking it for all it’s worth, no matter how hard Old Yellow Tooth wants Johanna on his beloved Sawx
3:28 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Twins and Red Sox could be getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the trade proposal — outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.).
Not so fast…
4:49 p.m., from Jayson Stark
• The Twins and Angels continue to talk about a Johan Santana trade. Many of the same players mentioned in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes — Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits — would be included in a package for Santana.
4:49 p.m., from Jayson Stark
• The Twins and Angels continue to talk about a Johan Santana trade. Many of the same players mentioned in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes — Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits — would be included in a package for Santana.
It ain’t over yet, ladies and gents.
Mister,
You’re so right. You should never negotiate out of fear. I like the Yankees approach here. They set their price, and that’s that.
seriously. willis in the AL East, no thanks.
I dunno, I just always liked D Trains stuff. But I saw him a lot at ProPlayer when I was there a few years ago.
CC will hit free agency, I have no doubt. Then again, i said that about Johan last year…
hmmm,
you can add me to the list. i’m not crying in my beer, i’m just stating what i truly believe from an objective standpoint. the red sox have revenue, a productive farm system and two of the three best pitchers in the game of baseball atop their rotation. they have one of the best closers in baseball and the best 3-4 hitter combo in a long time. i do not see any holes.
the yankees will be good. i will enjoy watching them play, but they are not as good as the red sox right now. and they will be adding santana to their rotation.
I’m trying to find out more about Austin Jackson.
He hit .260 with a .345 OBP and a paltry .374 slugging % over 235 at bats in 60 games at Charlotte.
He hit .345 with a .398 OBP and a .566 slugging % over 258 at bats in 67 games at Tampa.
He was in between those numbers in the Hawiian Leaguue, .271 batting average, .368OBP, .489 Slugging %.
Decent numbers for sure, but what is it that makes him such a can’t miss prospect?
Real World
December 4th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Wow, so many Yankees fans from Boston in here. I’m Boston born and raised. I hate the Yahoo’s here in Boston who are obsessed with everything New York. I’ve had strangers curse me for wearing my Yankees hat in town. It was great when some schmuck(s) would yell at me and my bud for wearing our Yankees stuff, and we could just chant “1918″ and clap at them. Not anymore my friends.
Before eventually living in Maine, I went to college at Emerson in Boston, from 1996-2000, a wonderful time to be a Yankees fan in Beantown. Now, I can’t fathom it…
Maine is just as bad, b/c none of the hillbillies up here can even name five or six guys on the roster. Most can’t pronounce Matsuzaka, most still think Nomar is on the team, and its always, always, about Jeter.
Man, they hate that guy up here…
Here’s another way to look at it:
The Yankees Top 5 prospects (Chamberlain is no longer a prospect. He’s a vital component of the team) are:
1. Phil Hughes
2. Ian Kennedy
3. Austin Jackson
4. Alan Horne
5. Jose Tabata
The Twins wanted 3-4 of the Top 5 Yankees prospects.
That’s not what the Sox are putting on the table in their deal.
Its why its smart for the Yankees to walk away at this time.
hi all
I’m a regular reader and post once in a blue moon to the blog.
Question: if there is a Sox deal in place and it falls thru, do the yanks lessen their offer when the Twins ask again? (This is assuming the Angels and Dodgers are out of the picture)
The Twinkies would be absolute fools not to take that Angels package if it’s true…They fill so many holes with that trade and solidify their infield for years…
hmmmm, it is my understanding that the Yankees offered Hughes, Melky & a lesser/lower prospect.
The Twins said ‘no’, and requested that Kennedy be included.
That is what Bradford was talking about…. the Twins would accept the deal the Yankees offered, which included Hughes, if Kennedy came along.
In that scenario, which neither you or me can confirm or deny, then it IS Kennedy that is holding up the deal for the best pitcher in the majors.
Listen, if Santana stays in minny or goes to LA, then great, I’m glad they get to hold onto Hughes and Kennedy(for the time being anyhow). But if they let the Red Sox get Santana b/c they didn’t want to let Kennedy go, then that is LUNACY.
Forget all this dumb Yanks fans on here that say “I’ll go to war with Wang-Andy-Joba-Hughes-Kennedy and a great line up”… did we already forget that the Yankees won the Wild Card and got bounced in the first round of the playoffs?
What happened to the Yankees’ results-orientated management and fans???
(some spelling may be off in the post, for the record)
Stark on Mike Kay saying the Red Sox would be happy if the Angels got him as well
Drive 4-5,
No such thing as a can’t miss prospect. Jackson projects as a future stud, so that is why they want to hang onto him.
Go Angels!
(after all the pain they’ve caused us ober the years, it feels great to say that!)
How pathetic are the Sox? I can’t believe THE YANKEES dictate the RED SOX offseason moves.
SJ,
Why is Hughes still a prospect, and Joba Not? just Curious…
berra8 :
“….Poor, poor management by the New York franchises. We’re getting our asses beat all over the place by Boston teams, and I am really pissed about it….”
this is NOT true when talking about baseball.
The Yankees have made some GREAT moves (and passed on many others) over the past few years that really make the Sox look STUPID.
I understand they have two WS to show for the past 4 years, but not because of great management. Theo, Luccino, and the other Red Hose have been LESS then BAD
Quick Breakdown:
Lowell was PURE LUCK – they didn’t even want him
Dice K was as close to a bust as you can get without actually being a bust
What about Gagne? – That worked out well, huh?
Let’s not forget about the Golden Child, JD BLEW.
or how about Julio Lugo, or even Renteria before that… WEAK!!
hmm … The CoCo Crisp story? ..that was never intended to be a comedy, but funny nonetheless.
Manny is still there, but NOT because they want him, so they shouldn’t get any credit for him.
They did, however, fleece Arizona with the Schilling trade, and if it wasn’t for this past year, the Beckett deal was about to be a major BUST as well… i’m stil not sold that that deal was a Boston winner .. i need to see Beckett do it more then once, because you know Hanley’s going to be well above average for years, and Beckett is due for AT LEAST a month on the DL EVERY YEAR!
But the thought that the Sawx management has made the Yanks look bad is a GROSS mis perception.
Its the opposite, really.
Stark says Sox would take Santana if the twins accepted their inferior package, but are unsure about adding his contract
The problem with looking at stats when evaluating prospects like Jackson is, they don’t tell the whole story.
He really jumped as a prospect when he was promoted to Tampa.
Since his promotion, he has played terrific baseball at every level he has played.
Even the one game he played at AAA this year, he wasn’t overmatched.
Kids who are great athletes (like Jackson) sometimes just have it all come together. When that happens, they become special players.
Jackson has that chance to be a great player. Its why he isn’t only coveted by the Yankees, he is coveted by every team in the game right now.
The sky won’t fall if Santana winds up with the Red Sox, it will add to an already formidable starting rotation, but it does nothing to address their offensive issues. I applaud Cashman and Steinbrenner for taking a stand here and not mortgaging the farm ( pardon the bad pun ) for one starting pitcher. The Big Three need some time to develop, and I’m willing to give it to them. I have nothing but confidence in Joba…
Shamus – ha! It sounds bad up there in Maine. There are definitely a fair share of idiots here in Boston, also – I try to avoid them, though, and seek out the intelligent Red Sox fans (who are great, and really know their baseball, and don’t revert to stupid chants about the Yankees sucking and such). I have to say, though, some of them are horrible. I’m a 27-year old woman, and I’ve had scary huge men lean out of their car windows and yell things at me just because I was wearing a Yankees hat. I’d say 8 out of 10 Sox fans, although I disagree with them, are great to talk baseball with: it’s the other 2 out of 10 that make me wish I lived somewhere else.
Also, I love Boston in general – a beautiful city that I’ve made my home. I just can’t stand that 2 out of 10…
lol. Stark says Mets are screwed. Nobody wants anything they have to trade
drive 4-5 i’m sure SJ44 can give you the full run down but this is what i understand from following the minors for the past year.
AJax was drafted as a two sport athlete, he had a full scholarship to play basketball at Georgia Tech but the yankees “bought” him. he pretty much stopped playing baseball his last year at school to concentrate on basketball but after a slow start in the minors he began to get his baseball feel back. Yankee officials thought he needed more motivation and they promoted him to Tampa, as you stated by his numbers he must have just needed a swift kick in the pants … hes had almost 600 AB’s after hawaii so you could just say he was fatigued, which would be the reason behind his low average.
this is the biggest test for him, AA. the hardest jump in the minors is A ball to AA, so if he plays well this year he will be special because he is a five tool athlete.
I dont get this logic: Chamberlain is no longer a prospect. He’s a vital component of the team
Chamberlain 24 major league innings
Hughes 72 inning.
You obviously know more than i, but its just odd to me that Joba is such a sure thing based on 24 innings and the fact that everyone says we havent seen his 4th pitch
VOIII,
Because Chamberlain was put off limits (in trade talks) by the Yankees immediately after the season and played a bigger role in the team than Hughes did last year.
This year, Hughes (if he is still with the team) will move into a more prominent role with the team.
Chamberlain already has one, which is why he is no longer a “prospect” in the eyes of baseball. He’s a star.
Catherine
December 4th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
How pathetic are the Sox? I can’t believe THE YANKEES dictate the RED SOX offseason moves.
—————-
How do you figure Catherine?
I don’t think that is right at all. I think it is delusional, self-centered thinking that is conjured up by fans to make themselves feel better…
AND I’M A YANKEE FAN!
lol
PB,
You don’t Trade 2/5s of your rotation for the next decade for 4 years of an Ace no matter how good he is. The value of Hughes and Kennedy combined over the life of Santana’s next contract will far exceed his. These guys may flop, but every scout and baseball prospect publication says they will not. Unless they get injured and that is something no-one can predict or is immune to.
Is there possible collusion between the Twins and Red Sox, in an effort to get the Yankees to bid against themselves? It seems like someone (Red Sox, Twins or both) is trying to scare the Yankees into blinking. First the bunk about the medical info about Lester, then the Ellsbury-is-back-in-the-mix bull, then 5 (mostly garbage) players for 1.
migames,
He dominated in a role he never had before…..being a relief pitcher. That changed everything.
Additionally, he was so good last year in the minors as a starter, he made a majors in less than a year after he signed. That’s a metoric rise.
It has nothing to do with IP. It has to do with production.
That’s why the Yankees wouldn’t include Chamberlain in any deal, while Hughes was available in a Santana deal.
Shamus & Boston Dave,
I’m another Massachusetts resident die hard Yankee fan (Berkshires). I even own 4 season tix on the Saturday game plan. My wife & I travel 350 miles round trip to attend 12 -15 games a year.
If I sound crazy passionate at times, it’s cuz I’ve got some $$$ invested in the Yanks success lol.
Is your name really Frank Discussion?
and as far as the sox’s rotation, Beckett WILL get hurt and spend some time on the DL once again, Schilling? as a Yankees fan, i’m actually happy they resigned his WAY TOO OLD self .. he gives the rest of the league a chance to win every fifth day… Buckoltz? .. didn’t he ALREADY have major surgery this year? .. is he to be depended on? … Wakefield?? .. need i say more?
I REFUSE to conceded this division to that team.
Take away the World Series for a monute and remember that this is the same team that played .500 ball for the entire second half, and the same team that the Yankees kicked the crap out of for the last 10 meetings.
I can’t wait until this nightmare of a trading war is over.
If I didn’t love the Yankees so much, I’d just stop checking all 500 of the sites that contradict one another leaving the devoted fan wondering what to believe.
On Michael Kay they just said that the Sox will be happy if the Angels pick up Santana because the Sox don’t think they want to pick up his contract.
That pretty much tells me they were in it to make the Yankees either pay more or walk away. They didnt anticipate that the Yanks would walk though and now they might have to accept Johan’s contract.
I am very far from a delusional fan. I often tell my friends that I hate the Yankees as much as I love them. Sorry if I came off as self-centered?
Question
As we all know Mussina is in his final year. If he has a year like his last contract year, do you re-sign him? I myself would not. Just because I dont trust he is still the pitcher he was a few years back(fastball) and his attitude sucks. Thoughts?
Peter Gammons just said on ESPN in regards to the Angels exploring Johan that you would take Lester over Jered Weaver. He was talking in general not just the Twins. Someone needs to take away his right to speak as unbiased right now.
sj…would you trade joba for anyone in the league?
(just making good conversation here, see if it leads us away from all this santanamania)
“Decent numbers for sure, but what is it that makes him such a can’t miss prospect?”
Nothing. He’s very athletic, and I guess the Yankees have decided, based on their scouting, that he’s put it all together and blossomed – rather than just having a “career” year. He’s very young, too.
Basically, he and Tabata are the only really promising position player prospects they’ve got that have hit even high A ball, so I guess they’re hoarding them. I don’t know that it’s that he’s can’t miss, it’s that he’s a decent shot at a legit star CFer and, if they’re trading their current young CFer AND a guy who has a real shot at being an ace for a long time…they’re not giving up their next potential star CFer as well.
I am getting the sense that the Sox are surprised that the Twins are seriously considering their inferior offer and are making clear that they have reservations about Johan’s contract, I wonder why?
Maybe the Yankees can ship Giambi to the Twins and eat the money? lol
I have a feeling that one more B prospect would seal the deal for the Yankees.
I am really on the fence on the Santana thing, I will be happy either way, but it makes it painful if he ends up going to the Sox for an inferior package.
“That is what Bradford was talking about…. the Twins would accept the deal the Yankees offered, which included Hughes, if Kennedy came along.”
come on, this has been going on for a week.
if the yankees agreed to Horne or Jackson or Kennedy, what was going to happen?
they were going to run right back to the Sox.
just like the Sox had a deal almost done, but now the Twins are talking with the Angels.
i bet he goes to the Angels at this point.
SJ,
Fair enough…I still feel over the long haul, when both of their careers are over, Hughes will have the better career and the most wins. That said I absolutely love Joba and would never think of trading him either.
Writing “Lester is garbage” is the equivalent of a Sox fan writing “Kennedy is garbage”. I’d mock that Sox fan. Therefore …
Sox get Johan for Lester, Masterson, Kalish…
“the yankees will be good. i will enjoy watching them play, but they are not as good as the red sox right now. and they will be adding santana to their rotation.”
right, but you said the Sox would win the division for at least the next 3 years.
which is ridiculous.
the Sox won the WS this year but they finished third last year.
3 years is an eternity.
PB in DC-
It looks like the Yankees aren’t gonna get Santana. I want him too, and I want to celebrate a Yankees World Series too, but what’s the point in conceding the championship to Boston 10 months before the playoffs even begins? Yeah, they have a great team, and they might add Santana, but I’m not gonna admit defeat until it actually happens. The Red Sox might be the favorite, but I don’t see the point of quaking in my boots over what they do or don’t do. That Doom and Gloom mentality is too Boston (pre-2007) for me. I’m not gonna worry about that team until the Yankees face them.
Maybe the Yankees jump back and get Santana, maybe they don’t. Hopefully the Yankees find pieces for the bullpen, and that’s the team we go to war with. And this is still the Yankees. If they need to, they’ll make moves at the deadline.
VOIII,
What I am saying is the Yankee’s can develop other SP in their system in the next 5 years to go with Joba or whatever… can they go out and get another Santana?
NO
Make the deal, I don’t know why people think Hughes and Kennedy are too much… they’re prospects, the farm system still has plenty of other quality arms to be realized by the pro team.
Holy Hell. I read through some of the whining rants from supposed fans of the Yankees over this Santana stuff and I really have to wonder when the switch came to being just like the Red Sox fans.
This is absurd.
Johan is a great pitcher, but he isn’t the second coming. He doesn’t pitch every day, and he can be hit. His record against the AL East is not good. While I would welcome him in the rotation, it isn’t critical.
If the Sox pull off this deal, then they do. They were not all that great last season, they caught some breaks, the biggest being the Yankees through the first 2 months.
Think about the Sox being in this so heavy. To me it seems they are more worried about the Yankees than ever. That despite the WS win.
Sheesh. This “sky is falling” crap coming from Yankee fans is an embaressment.
Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.
–Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.
Yeah, all but done except for the fact he’s going to ask them for a 6 yr insane contract…
I’d do Willis for Horne, Gardner, and Karstens. That’s it, though. Everyone gets all caught up in Dontrelle’s delivery and intensity, but what made him a good pitcher back in ’05 was his ability to precisely locate his fastball on both corners. Without that, he’s erratic. His command slipped so much in ’07 that he looked bat shy the last game of the season against the Mets. It was tough to watch. But he definitely has the maturity to listen, and the heart to keep competing. And don’t discount the Marlins’ D, which was absolutely hideous, and a killer to a pitcher of Willis’ style. He could… COULD improve here. But it isn’t worth Kennedy to find out, and even throwing them Horne, a lock for their rotation, scares me a little.
If this strong bid by the Angels is true, the Red Sox are probably ecstatic about it. They may not have minded giving up their garbage prospects, but I don’t think they were really thrilled about adding another huge contract. They just wanted to make sure Santana didn’t end up a Yankee. If they achieve that goal by getting Santana shipped to the Angels, what do they care?
“Peter Gammons just said on ESPN in regards to the Angels exploring Johan that you would take Lester over Jered Weaver. He was talking in general not just the Twins. Someone needs to take away his right to speak as unbiased right now.”
That is just mindboggling. Lester hasn’t shown ANYTHING that makes me think he’ll be special. I’ve watched him pitch since he came up, as I live in VT and get NESN. What I saw, combined with his minor league numbers, show me a guy who’ll be a #3 if he can put it together and who is a #5 right now. He doesn’t throw that hard, he doesn’t attack the zone, so he’s always behind and throws 100 pitches in five innings. Serviceable? Yeah. Great? I don’t think so.
Forgot something:
Red Sox get Johan for Lester Masterson Kalish AND a center fielder…
Done deal.
Details to follow
rb15
That is dead on accurate.
While 90% of my close friends are Sox fans, there is about a 2% population (usually that have never left the state of Maine, much less made it to Fenway Park. The same idiots that think Yawkey Way is somehow ‘Yankees-associated’.
These are the people that give a fan base a bad name. Sadly, there are many idiot Yankees fans running around out there that think we should trade Carl Pavano and Frazy Kyle for Johan and call it good…
And Boston, like parts of Maine, is beautiful, like I said, I went to Emerson and lived on Beacon Street and Hill for four years in the 90s.
Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, Wakefield
Wang, Pettite, Hughes, Chamberlain, Moose/Kennedy.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm. Dice-K will only get better in his second year. Schilling is beast in playoffs. Wakefield won 17 games last year. Beckett and Santana. . . enough said.
The Yanks rotation is very good in my opinion. However the only guy in his prime is Wang coming off a monumentally bad playoff series. 3 Rookies? Mussina? Pettite, as good as he was last year, isn’t even a gurantee.
This will be a tough year.
At least cite your source Kingrover. Come on…
migames,
I wouldn’t trade Joba for anybody. You can’t teach what he has and he is only 22. Its scary how good his stuff is.
I watched him pitch 9 games in the minors this year. He was so good, it was scary.
Think about it. The guy got called to the majors, cut his pitch selection in half, was put in a role he had never had before, at any level of baseball, and dominated.
That just isn’t done often in the game.
He’s a special talent. If Hughes is healthy, and gets his velocity back on his fastball, as well as his bite on his 12 to 6 curveball, he is also has the chance to be special.
Its a good problem for the Yankees to have. Its why I understand their attachment to the young arms.
The viz wants a Linkebrink type deal – I guess every mediocre reliever wants that deal. Without the viz who exactly is capable of getting ppl out in the yankees bullpen. So Randy and Sheff’s deal combined will officialy give us a half of a yr of decent relief pitching. Wow what a genius cash is.
If I hear one more time that it will be fun being the under gods if the sux get Santana Im going to explode. That is the most annoying comment i have ever heard and Mike said it about 30 times today on WFAN. I think that was enuff for everyone. And i read it about 10 times in this blog already.
The twins told reported today that they would like to get a deal done by the end of today. So it was obnoxious for Steinbrenner to want to get it done yesterday but now they want to finish it today. Is the twins new GM on the sux payroll or something? The sux offer is not even close to as good as the yanks and when the yanks wanted to finish yesterday there was no way in hell but with the sox in the lead today (with the exact same offer mind you) the twins also want to get it done.
AND WHY EXACTLY IS THE SOX OPFER BETTER THAN THE YANKS OFFER TODAY WHEN THEY BOTH WERE OFFERING THE SAME PLAYERS YESTERDAY WHEN THE YANKEES WERE IN THE LEAD? This will be the fourth pitcher the yanks and sox have bid for and the sox won out on – Schilling, Beckett (SORT OF) Dice-K and now, Santana. And what have the yanks over-bid on the sox for pitching-wise? Contreras and some other junk. How come we always win out on the hitters but we cant get a pitcher for our life. Thas why we never win in the playoffs I guess.
Why does steinbrenner think setting a deadline is some sort of bargaining tool? This has done nothing but piss the twins off and make the yanks look like fools if they come back and ppl that just dont keep their word. Who wants to deal with untrustworthy, idiots?
I’ve also watched Lester since he came up. He’s good, but he’s at most a #3.
wow, the twins didn’t even get lowrie?! i thought he was the big piece.
and who is the centerfielder?
Just remember that the Yanks won 93 games using 12 starting pitchers this year.
If the starting rotation remainshealthy in 2008, how could they win any less games? The hitters had injuries too– Abreu, Matsui, and Damon was just plain out of shape in 07.
“Lester Masterson Kalish AND a center fielder”
That’s a joke, right? Even Bill Smith can’t be that dumb…
Will Carroll at BP.com has it.
hmmmm, when you write this:
“come on, this has been going on for a week.
if the yankees agreed to Horne or Jackson or Kennedy, what was going to happen?
they were going to run right back to the Sox.”
… you’re making the decision for the twins and predicting their motives for asking for Kennedy. You can’t/shouldn’t do that.
Who is to say they would not have accepted the deal then rather than use it as leverage?
Besides, if they did that, than at that point (after you’ve included Kennedy and they turn around and try to get more), then it still isn’t too late to walk. THEN, I agree, you walk.
But I think Hughes, Kennedy and Melky get the job done.
Just my opinion.
Been reading all day:
Some random thoughts.
1) I’m glad Hughes wasn’t traded.
Cashman seems to have a bullpen inferiority complex. It’s almost like he doesn’t think it’s worth paying anyone unless you’re amazing like Mo. Seems to me the organizational plan is to breed hard throwers and place them in the pen toward the end of the year. Banking on, they’ll throw hard strikes and not enough people have seen them. Seems like a good idea, but in the mean time we’re going to have to deal with what we got.
2) I think at least one of our top three will have a great season. Probably Hughes. I think Kennedy will be stable at least. Joba, if they start him slowly could be a major factor down the stretch.
3) Yankees still have the best 1-9 in the league. If everyone shows up, we could hit our way to 90+ wins easily.
4) Everyone seems down on Wang. Yes, two bad starts this year in the playoffs. Santana isn’t much better in the playoffs. Wang will get us 17+ wins I think.
5) This is baseball, anything can and will happen. All of our predictions and fears will be rendered moot before the first pitch of the season. Then we’ll have a new set of predictions and fears, and those will be rendered moot before the deadline, and then we’ll have a new set of … you get the point. I’m content to wait and see.
6) I still think Santana is a shoulder injury in the waiting.
7) Yanks aren’t getting Kazmir or Bedard. If we can’t get a team to give up their expensive ace for our best talent, what makes anyone think we’ll get a team to give up their inexpensive aces for less talent?
9) Don’t know why anyone would bash Cashman for not making the deal. It’s clear that the Twins wanted one thing from us (quality) cuz that’s what we have. They wanted another thing form the Sox (quantity) cuz that’s what they have.
10) In the Twins mind, they’re solving a rotation spot, an infield spot, an outfield spot, and a bullpen spot. Perhaps they see that as the best option to compete next year. I know we Yankee fans think we’re the only one’s who want to compete next year. Smith is in his first year, and a good year next year would make an awfully good impression, don’t you think? Hughes, as great as he is and would be for the Twins, only fills one hole. That’s what I think the Twins are thinking. Pitching is a need for every team, but so is the rest of the team. I expect them to keep Nathan (at least til the deadline) and they could be pretty good next year.
Good night.
“Writing “Lester is garbage†is the equivalent of a Sox fan writing “Kennedy is garbageâ€. I’d mock that Sox fan. Therefore …”
Kennedy had more success in the minors at a younger age than Lester ever did.
Lester’s not garbage, but he’s not special either. Kennedy’s certainly comparable to Lester, and could be a bit better. Hughes is clearly better.
they aren’t even solving the infield spot. lowrie is not in the deal. wow. what crap.
I love how people keep coming on and saying that others are whining because the Yankees aren’t going all out to get Santana. I don’t read any whining, I think most folks feel the asking price of Hughes and Kennedy is too much and walking away is the right thing to do.
To be honest, the Angels would be better trade partners with the Twins. They have excess starting pitching and OF’s. How about Weaver, Ervin Santana, Willits and Figgins. I probably make that deal if I’m the Twins.
Friend that has Bp has confirmed Carroll said this as well.
SJ- I think I could read what you write about Joba all day.
Is that weird?
If the Twins are smart, Lowrie appears to be the big prize.
Peter Rabbit–
This trade is not about the regular season, it is about our inability to have a shutdown pitcher in the post season.
With this lineup, we’d be able to win with a rotation of Pettite, Wang, Moose, and Two irabus.
Let’s not be shortsighted on what Santana really would bring to a ballclub. All the teams pursuing him are playoff bound barring injuries.
Dave, then why don’t you just switch to being a Red Sox fan? You are so in love with them and disgusted with the Yankees, it would just be easier.
brain surgeons the yanks did not have the hance to get shilling and Beckett. They had no chips in the minors to get him..
the revisionist history is quite humorous…..
Some yoyo puts something on the site of the Santana deal for whatever 3 guys and you think it is the truth….
Hughes is the best player being mentioned in all these trades that is the bottom line…..
“Who is to say they would not have accepted the deal then rather than use it as leverage?”
you’re right, no one knows. not me. just the sense i got from following this for 5 straight days.
dude, it’s on baseballprospectus.com.
“But I think Hughes, Kennedy and Melky get the job done.”
That’s because it’s a lopsided deal in favor of the other side.
That’s two players that are better than ANYONE in the competing deal. Why do the Yankees have to give up so much when Lester, Crisp, a solid offensively-poor defensively 2b prospect, and a AA reliever with mediocre numbers is the competing offer?
Shamus,
For some reason my last entry didnt take. I’m a Massachusetts resident (Berkshires) Yankee fan too. My wife & I travel 350 miles roundtrip every Saturday home game plus catch a few more. I live, like the rest of us New England Yankee fans do, amoung some of the most obnoxious people God every put on this earth.
All – before you say it’s crap, wait to see if the CF is Ellsbury.
I still dont think the Sox offer Johan more than $17 per year, which will get rejected.
I mean to say under dogs not under gods
berra8,
Nope, not my real name. It’s a reference to the vocalist for an obscure punk rock band (The Feederz), I always thought it was comical.
I’m not some yoyo. I posted you a direct quote from Will Carroll at BaseballProspectus.com
It’s funny how many times over the past few days various people have posted, “The deal is done.” It’s like the boy who cried wolf…When the the trade is finally made for real, I won’t believe it’s true.
Frank,
I was just joking. It would be an awesome real name, however.
that’s true, if ellsbury is the centerfielder, then it’s a decent deal for the twins. if not, they got hosed.
“If the Twins are smart, Lowrie appears to be the big prize.”
Outside of Gammons, no one seems to think he’s a big prize. He’s apparently considered by some to not be good enough on D to hold down SS. And it’s not that his arm is too weak. He seems like a solid player. THAT is the big prize?
a point – u dont switch ur favorite team because the GM is a moron … I love the yankees – i just dont like the management. They make dumb moves and say dumb things – I love the team. And who says i like the redsox. I just said that we continue to get outbid by the sox even tho we have a better farm system and more money to spend i just dont get it. The sox traded away their two best prospects for beckett and now all of a sudden they can compete with us again for santana. When was the last time our farm got us anything of value besides abreu for the last couple of months of his contract.
Weird writing by Carroll. Especially since I think Kalish is a CF. Is it a hint?
A deal of Lester, Ellsbury, Masterson and this other guy I think equals the yanks offer, but clearly, based on earlier comments, the key was Melky – the Twins were not high on him.
If it is Ellsbury, then it makes sense.
Still, dont think he’ll end up a Red Sox.
i think he means another centerfielder? it is weird. it mirrors nearly identically what i felt the yanks should have offered for santana: hughes, melky, horne, jackson.
lester, CFer, masterson, kalish. difference is that the yankees could have offered the better package with hughes. it’s too bad.
Ohhh Twins organization where are the 3 “impact” players that you said you would need back to trade your ace?? You didnt’t even get 1 impact player let alone 3. Asking the Yanks for the whole farm and the Angels if that report was true but Boston gets him for a bag of balls. Theo must have a lot of charm or make a good bubble bath.
I’m glad the twins aren’t high on Melky, because I am a huge Melky fan. True he is not a number 4 hitter, but he hits enough and his defense is outstanding. Plus his personality is uplifting for the rest of the team. He can play on my team any time.
Yeah, the Red Sox can pull a fast one on Bill Smith, but I doubt they can pull a fast one on Santana and his agent (when it comes to the contract). They’ll have to pay him what he wants. After all, it’s not like the Dice-K negotiations, where ultimately he had to buckle down and sign a deal or be stuck in Japan for another year. Santana doesn’t have to go anywhere, and he knows it.
“u dont switch ur favorite team because the GM is a moron”
The NL teams I root for tend to change based on the GM (right now I have a massive Josh Byrnes boner (aside from yesterday’s odd deal)). What’s odd is that if I weren’t a Yankees fan, I’d probably be more intrigued by them today assuming they refuse to budge. Boston is giving up some nice players and, likely, a ton of money for a guy who is a free agent in 2009.
i don’t think the extension will be a problem. it will get done, $20 million, 5 years or $19 million over 6 years. jake peavy’s reported extension will be the red sox bargaining position, and they will succeed.
Can we remember the Gagne trade fiasco please? The SOx gave up 3 prospects. A useful starter, a young outfielder and a young prospect, if my memory serves me. And Gagne was a disaster. He’s probably going to return to Texas. I suspect this trade will have the same type of poor return for Boston, if they are able to sign him, which I still doubt.
If this Santana to Sox is really true, I’ve got two young daughters who are going to be ecstatic to hear that Melky is still in pinstripes. Melky is a joy to watch. I know he’s not the best player ever; I believe that Jim Kaat recounted in 2006 that Kevin Long (or whoever the Columbus batting coach was then) thought that one day Melky would win the batting title. So, you never know.
It would have broken my heart to see Phil go. I see something undeniably special in him. The magic of the May 1 game is still with me. In that last playoff game, I had seats in the far away bleachers, behind the bullpen and he and Ohlendorf were sitting up on a bench watching. I’m telling you, he’s got some kind of special aura (for lack of a better word). Maybe it’s just confidence and poise, but I see something there.
Here’s hoping my daughters and I aren’t crazy.
Tony Kornheiser said the Yankees NEED to get Santana or else sox have next 5 world series locked up.
berra8 – Don’t you think Santana would be curious to see what the Yanks would offer come 2009? The extension might well get done, but I don’t think it’s going to be completely smooth sailing for the Sox. Again, they can’t simply compel Santana to take less money than he thinks he would be able to get as a free agent. And I don’t think Santana is going to feel constrained by Peavy’s deal.
Johan Santana Rumors: Tuesday
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 4:28pm: Per Will Carroll at Baseball Prospectus: Santana to Boston is “all but done” with Lester, Masterson, and Kalish in the package.
whozat, I disagree.
I don’t think that is a lopsided deal in the slightest.
I think Carroll’s post and then the rush to read it has brought down BP!
Yeah but the Yankees will win it all in the sixth year then!
Steve
“Peter Gammons just said on ESPN in regards to the Angels exploring Johan that you would take Lester over Jered Weaver.”
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!
Here is what Weaver did in his first (abbreviated) season
11-2, era – 2.56, S/O – 105, Walks – 33, WHIP – 1.03, BAA – .209
Lester’s major league resume –
11-2, era – 4.68, S/O – 110, Walks – 74, WHIP – 1.57
Absolutely unbelievable, there is NO comparison.
Guru, my ass!
Peter Gammons is so high on Jon Lester because he too battled a life threatening ailment and so Gammons feels he is true winner, regardless if he is not as good as Hughes.
Not to be a d!ck, but Gammons is just nuts. That aneurysm should have retired him.
Twins to report back to the Yankees tonight for an update to their initial offer.
Theo succeeds here if Yanks up the ante and then Red Sox pull out.
I still believe Red Sox are not sincere with this. Their offer proves it.
where do you read that steve?
Did you hear that somewhere Steve, or just speculation??
I dont blame the Twins for not liking Melky his defense or offense isn’t anything to be excited about. He is a 4th outfielder. But Coco Krispies is awful and makes $12m and even if it is Ellsbury also he is nothing to jump about. He had 1 good series and now people are making him out to be Willie Mays. Hughes alone beats that package. I would love to hear out of the 30 gm’s how many would of turned down the chance to get Hughes!! It is extemely rare these days to be able to get a talent and pitching prospect like him back in a deal.
MLB Trade Rumors:
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 4:14pm: Hey, it’s been a few minutes without a Johan update. A Red Sox source told Gordon Edes he’s not buying that the Yankees are out on Santana. I heard the exact same thing from my own Winter Meetings source – my guy says the Yanks fully expect to hear back from the Twins about a final offer later tonight.
twins lose big in that deal. no matter if they turn around and trade crisp.
just doesnt make sense. thought they had smart people over there… i still wont believe it until its official.
thanks, steve.
the bergen record is reporting that the yankees completely pulled their offer. i don’t think the yankees hear back.
“hughes, melky, horne, jackson.”
“lester, CFer, masterson, kalish.”
Except the Horne and Jackson are better prospects than Masterson and Kalish. If the CFer is Ellsbury, then maybe Ellsbury/Lester is more appealing to the Twins than Hughes/Melky, and that’s at least debatable.
“I don’t think that is a lopsided deal in the slightest.”
Why? Back it up. The 2006 MiLB pitcher of the year, plus the #1 pitching prospect in the major leagues from 2007, plus a switch-hitting 23 year old CFer with a cannon arm for exclusive negotiating rights to one pitcher.
Regardless of whether it’s balanced, explain to me how Lester/Crisp/Masterson/random 19 year old beats something like Hughes/Melky/Whelan, and maybe someone like Gardner.
i have always respected brian cashman.
but on days like today i don’t know how that guy handles the pressure of his job.
Okay, isn’t “all but done” the same as saying “close to finalizing” or any other way of saying that a deal is not completed?
Or are they in the bottom of the 5th with the trade?
Remember the Yanks offer to Torre was “Good enough to refuse?” Well, maybe the Red Sox are playing this offer until the Yanks have cracked the seal on another young arm and tossed him into the ring.
My gut tells me that both team are playing the yanks now, and that the Red Sox will find a way to make an offer “good enough to refuse” to Johan, should they win bargaining rights. This is all a ploy to keep him out of pinstripes.
SJ44, Kennedy and Hughes aren’t the whole system
So, if the Sox don’t want Santana, they should offer him an inferior contract. But I think they’re just gonna b-ch and moan about it all the way to the signing ceremony. Hey, they can always back out if they don’t want to do this. No one is holding a knife to their throats.
SJ44 –
I have to thank you for your updates during the past season, as well as now, on all the minor league prospects of the Yankees. Without that insight, this would all be greek to me. I, at the very least, have a familiarity with the names that are being bandied about, and feel that I can have a relatively educated opinion on whether the Yankees are doing a good thing here or not. In the past, I certainly would have said, “well, hey, they’re all minor league guys for a major league guy, what’s the problem?!”
I know I only have myself to blame, because no one is forcing me to read the comments, but so much of what’s been posted the last couple of days is plain ridiculous. According to so many people, well, I guess the Yankees should just not even bother to show up FOR THE NEXT 4 OR 5 YEARS! Insanity is trying to reign, but fortunately there are some people here with some clarity – SJ, hmmmm, murphydog.
Rebecca — I am a mom; please clarify — “I am so late.” What??
Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.
–Will Carroll, 5:15 p.m.
Can the angels trade foR Cabrera and Santana? Their farm system would probably be barren after those two blockbusters. They would be a force though
The Red Sox also have to know that should Johan get to Free Agency, odds are he’ll be opening up the new Yankee Stadium in ’09.
hey, can anyone post what will caroll wrote at 5:15? i havent read it enough
Curious that the Red Sox would not identify the “CF”. Could be that it is Ellsbury, and they fear an immediate backlash by fans. Best to wait for the smoke to clear before they reveal…
Now, if the Yankees trade ANY of Hughes, Kennedy, Melky or the other farm kids, Horne, Jackson, Tabata for DAN FREAKIN’ HAREN, I’ll be mad…
I’ll be real mad. George Brett coming out of the dugout mad…
If Kennedy being added to a Phil and Melky package is holding up the best pitcher in baseball (albeit the most $$$ as well) becoming a Yankee, then I just don’t know what I’d do if Beane prys a sick package for SOLID NUMBER 2 PITCHER Danny Boy Haren…
IMHO…
the CF in the deal HAS to be Ellsbury. That is why Lowrie was taken back. If that’s the case, this trade makes sense.
Sometimes I am just sooooo funny…
Who is this mystery CF they are dealing with Lester, crap and poop?
Doreen: I mean that I find the news about thirty minutes after it appears on the blog!
Shamus: A Kennedy led package for Haren would make me happy. Billy Martin after George Brett was called out happy.
I hope that Jackson and Horne turn out to be hall of famers since Cash would rather let Santana go to Boston then include them. Is Cash ever going to win in a big trade?! But we can give Arod $700m. So he can hit 50 homeruns while the Yanks still have no pitching. Nothing changes with this organization offense is still more important then pitching is to them.
Kennedy and Melky should be about as high as we should go for Haren. Melky is pretty much a complete jobber.
Right, so if Crisp was out and Ellsbury was in, that would be why Jed Lowrie was pulled…
That makes sense. Unless, its still Crisp and the Sox are paying a portion of his contract…
Remember, after the Edgar (Renteria) Expirience of 2005 failed, they shipped him to Atlanta with enough cash to feed a third world country.
bp.com says “all but done”, last time I checked that is not the same as “the deal is done”.
We should make people trade us stuff but we shouldn’t give them very much back.
ala bobcat
not me
Migames
December 4th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Sometimes I am just sooooo funny…
I hope Melky wins batting title this year.
CaptainsCorner,
I actually think the decision became more about having to include Phil Hughes than those other guys.
5:55 p.m., from Buster Olney • Both the Diamondbacks and Dodgers have talked to the A’s about Dan Haren. Oakland wantd young pitching in return for the ace.
• The Angels are denying that they’re in on Johan Santana.
“I hope Melky wins batting title this year.”
If he does, it would be with something worthless like .320/.336/.400. Dude is a Grade A jobber.
CaptainsCorner
December 4th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I hope that Jackson and Horne turn out to be hall of famers since Cash would rather let Santana go to Boston then include them. Is Cash ever going to win in a big trade?! But we can give Arod $700m. So he can hit 50 homeruns while the Yanks still have no pitching. Nothing changes with this organization offense is still more important then pitching is to them.
Agreed…
captains corner are you about 12 and a spoiled brat???
You do not even know who these guys are, and throw them around like they are junk…
2009 Free Agent Pitchers:
sabathia, santana, lackey, peavy, sheets…
Kris Bensen BAL
A.J. Burnett TOR (may opt out)
Paul Byrd CLE
Jon Garland CWS
Tom Glavine NYM
Mike Hampton * ATL
Rich Harden * OAK
Orlando Hernandez NYM
Jason Jennings HOU
Randy Johnson ARZ
John Lackey * LAA
Esteban Loaiza OAK
Braden Looper STL
Derek Lowe LAD
Pedro Martinez NYM
Matt Morris * PIT
Mike Mussina NYY
Jamie Moyer PHI
Mark Mulder * STL
Carl Pavano NYY
Jake Peavy * SD
Brad Penny * LAD
Odalis Perez KC
Oliver Perez NYM
Andy Pettitte NYY
Mark Prior CHC
Horatio Ramirez SEA
C.C. Sabathia CLE
Johan Santana MIN
Ben Sheets MIL
John Smoltz * ATL
Julian Tavarez BOS
Steve Trachsel BAL
Brett Tomko LAD
Claudio Vargas MIL
Woody Williams HOU
Randy Wolf LAD
Yeah, Cash definitely lost out when he traded Soriano for A-Rod. He’s a bum as a GM. A complete bum.
Maybe the Yankees would have satisfied some “fans” here if they offered up Joba, Hughes, Kennedy and Wang all in an effort to get Johan Santana.
After all, if they aren’t going into the HOF, they are fodder for the Twins grinding machine to get Santana who will pitch every other game while Pettitte pitches the other ones.
I love this tidbit from ESPN’s blog:
“• The Angels are denying that they’re in on Johan Santana.
4:49 p.m., from Jayson Stark
• The Twins and Angels continue to talk about a Johan Santana trade. Many of the same players mentioned in the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes — Howie Kendrick, Brandan Wood, Nick Adenhart, and possibly Jeff Mathis or Reggie Willits — would be included in a package for Santana.”
The VERY next post denying the previous one. That’s why we shouldn’t believe anything we’re hearing until there is official news. ESPN and many other people are just posting whatever nonsense some Nashville tourist tells them they overheard walking through the halls of the hotel.
sabathia, santana, lackey, peavy, sheets…
Outside of Sabathia, I doubt any of these guys comes close to free agency.
Yanks are going to end up with Santana.
With Girardi saying he really likes Farnsworth and Cashman defending him, I fully expect Krazy Kyle to be gone soon. Or as George King says, “The Mop” lol.
So let me get this straight…
The Twins want one of two packages from the Bombers for the best pitcher in abseball:
1. Hughes, Melky, Jackson and Horne…
or
2. Hughes, Melky, and Kennedy…
Wasn’t Billy Beane the one that said (not verbatim, but long these lines) the real good, fair, even trades are the ones that hurt?
Could Hughes, Melky and Horne do it? Or would that upset all the suddden propsect-pack-rats that are popping up in NY everyday?
Nothing strikes me on that 2009 list.
CaptainsCorner,
I bet you never heard of guys like Joba or Hughes for that matter then. Probably think TyClip, Pavano, Igawa are still starting for this team.
berra8, I agree because they are treating Hughes being included like he was just extra potatoes. Then my final offer would be Kennedy/Jackson/Horne/A ball player. Kennedy is better or similiar to Lester, and then the extra 3 players. I just don’t get why Hughes is on the table if Boston only has Lester/Ellsbury/Coco in there deal.
Doreen, you must have missed a couple pitchers named Carl Pavano and Randy Johnson on that list. Two pitchers like that are exactly what we need to get over the top. lol
Shamus
December 4th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
CaptainsCorner
December 4th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
I hope that Jackson and Horne turn out to be hall of famers since Cash would rather let Santana go to Boston then include them. Is Cash ever going to win in a big trade?! But we can give Arod $700m. So he can hit 50 homeruns while the Yanks still have no pitching. Nothing changes with this organization offense is still more important then pitching is to them.
Agreed…
LOL
Rebecca -
Thanks. You know, it’s so busy here these days that by the time I respond to a post and submit it, about 15 other posts appear!
I really wish I had something better to do!
(Cleaning my house for the holidays does not quality as “better.” It’s getting done, but I take a lot of breaks to “refresh.”)
I hate to tell you guys but its not JUST that we dont get santana – the best pitcher of this generation if we lose out on this deal. But the sox rotation will be comprised of Santana, Beckett, DiceK, Bucholtz and Schilling next season. Yes, schilling is their fifth stater but that isnt even the issue. The thing to be concerned about is that all of those four are under the age of thirty – Beckett was a true ace this yr and santana is just the best pitcher in the game. Buckholz is one of the best pitching prospects and Dicek is prolly going to be better next yr. This is the pitching that a dynasty is built on. Esp considering the sux won two out of the last four world series WITHOUT Santana. I think the yanks really need to get santana because we can let the sux have that type of rotation locked up for at least five yrs. Its just not smart. With more money to spend than the sox and BETTER PROSPECTS, I dont really see how the hell the sux are winning this tug of war for santana. We should have this thing wrapped up by now. God, just give them horne – with santana, we dont even need him and tabata- we dont need position prospects from within the organization if our starting rotation is going to be full of guys who are making league minimum for a while. This is NOT the type of negotiation to be playing around with – we need to win this one. Its not even funny any more. I dont see why every yankee fan doesnt see why santana is so crucial. He can single handedly alter the balance of power of the AL east for yrs to come.
So according to Shamus and CaptainsCorner, because the Yankees didn’t give up Two MLB ready pitchers and one who is getting close for ONE SINGLE pitcher, they lost focus on pitching being important?
What the heck am I missing here?
Johan starts every 5th game, then what? That is the whole trouble with the Twins demand. They wanted two starters pitching wise from the Yankees, and they get Lester from the Sox who at best – yes I said AT BEST is near to Kennedy’s level.
Mindboggling.
What is the class’ opinion on the best trade Brian Cashman has made?
Abreu perhaps? Proctor? I cant think of ver many good ones. Looking for some help here.Thanks
What if C-A-T really spelled DOG?
Drive: The David Justice trade.
Yankee starting rotations:
2008:
Pettitte
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Kennedy
Mussina
2009:
Sabathia
Pettitte
Wang
Chamberlain
Hughes
Kennedy
(Sanchez, Horne, etc.)
What the hell does prolly mean? It isn’t even a word.
Dicey K is mysteriously going to do better, Buckett will repeat his year. Yeah right.
Grow up or just become a sox fan.
Abreu trade’s turned out pretty nicely for the Yankees. But my brain is drained, so I can’t go back any further. The problem is, sometimes a trade looks likes it’s going to be good and then it turn out badly. You don’t always know going in. Hey, even with Santana, he could conceivably not be able to pitch well at Fenway, you know?
The Yankees turned down PH, Melky, Marquez and EITHER Horne or Jackson. I say offer up Horne. Would you be paying more than the bosux? Yes. But Marquez, despite his 15 wins, is not an A prospect, and Horne has command issues despite having a stellar season at AA Trenton. The thought is that as he moves to the next 2 levels, batters don’t cahse as much and they’ll be able to sit on his fastballs. If you are willing to do PH and Melky (and I am ambivalent about that), then you don’t let these 2 scuttle the deal. We have a number of other prospecst for SPs and frankly not much room on the big club (Sanchez, McCutchen, Brackman, etc.). Hey, the reason to have prospects is to either play them or use them to get other players. Again, if you are willing to go Hughes and Melky, then seal the deal with the other two.
Phillips just said on Kay’s show that Cabrera is going to the Tigers. The deal is done.
I bet anything Sabathia agrees to an extension with Cleveland.
If the Red Sox get Santana it’s just pure excess for them and I never want to hear Theo or Lucchino complain about the Yankees or “uber-teams” ever again.
Getting Santana also puts the Sox in the same situation we’re in, where it’s a failure if you don’t win the world series every year. A rotation of Santana, Beckett, Dice-K, Schilling, Buchholz, (or Wakefield) is imposing with their bullpen. It would certainly make them the best team on paper. However, any failures would be magnified more than now.
Tigers and Marlins seem to have just completed a huge blockbuster.
Doreen: You could write my English paper for me.
Drive: David Justice in 2000. Still remember one of the articles had a line that went something like “After failing to get Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez, the Yankees landed Justice on a whim. He then saved their season”
Not sure exactly what it was, but the Yankees may not have even made the playoffs if not for Justice.
Cabrera to the Tigres means the Angels will be in on Santana…
great job by the tigers. great pickup. future HOFer
NESN is all over this, just now Tom Caron talking to BG beat reporter Emily at Nash, Ten, she said deal will be done tonight, Twins deciding on two packages… All paperwork exchanged, negotiations starting on an extension.
The packages they are deciding between:
One based around Ellsbury, one based around Lester…
So much dis-information. I bet the Twins saying they want to end this tonight is a shot back at Hammern’ Hank, trying to get one last second offer from the NYY…
No surprise this report came from NESN, the Sox owned network.
From the Globe’s Gordon Edes(6:08 p.m.): “Angels GM Tony Reagins just told reporters that there was no truth to Angels being involved in Johan Santana negotiations. Said he never talked to Twins”
So much for the Angels keeping Santana from the Boston.
You can disagree with me all you want, but as of right now this essentially the same team we had last year. Yeah we got unproven kids right now that show a lot of potential.
Good luck Yankees, way to really fight for that ACE the last year on the epic “House That Ruth Built”.
So the last year of the “THAT HOUSE HE BUILT” will more than likely be a .. “We really should have gotten Santana” We sure as hell aren’t going to win the WS with what we got and what .. THEY have..
Unless, the Yankee’s pull more than one rabbit out of there hat.. how can you viably expect this team to be serious contenders? Are you going to base that thought on .. “The kids are going to do it for us”..
Laughable… cry-able.. whatever..
Not getting Santana is a big mistake.. but allowing Boston to have him is a “COLOSSAL MISTAKE”
I Only pray he goes to LA. Nice Job Team!
Like I said earlier.. if those on this board ran the Yankee’s we would be come the Montreal Expos.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 5:04pm: This is out of control! Now Jim Molony is saying the Tigers are nearing a blockbuster eight-player deal to get Cabrera and Willis for Maybin, Miller, and four others. In the same breath Molony adds that the White Sox are after Andruw Jones.
thats from MLBTR.
CaptainsCorner, that is hopefully good news for the Angels’ intentions toward JS.
“I hope Melky wins batting title this year.”
Case in point … “Montreal Expos”
Arte Moreno will be po’d…he’ll splurge prospects on Johan…if Boston is serious, they better hurry up.
Dave, I agree with you to an extent.
Unfortunately, it really is the Sox vs the Yanks… and Santana, Beckett pitching 4 games in a 7 game playoff series will be rough.
talking about it right now on ESPN
Miggy AND Willis to Tigers!!!
Ventura for Proctor/Crosby…
MLB.com is reporting that the Tigers are set to acquire Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis from the Marlins for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller and four more prospects.
You know, I think the Marlins get the better end of the deal…
Willis pitching in the AL?
Wow, big deal
twins will call yanks at least 1 final time.
even if twins & sox agree, they’ll need santana’s ok.
patiently waiting…
dear GOD, look at all these teams making big moves and the yanks are sitting still with their hands down their pants…unbelievable
If Shef stays healthy that is a heck of a lineup
Porcello in deal?
Shamus – you have a link for that?
The American League just got even tougher… is the NL going to matter anytime soon??
Tigers just acquired Willis and Cabrera for Maybin and Miller and prospects. If I am the Yanks I have to go back for Santana if only because the Red Sox may think that they are no longer the favorites with the Tigers being so good. You cant afford to let the Red Sox get desperate for Santana.
I wonder how Santana will pronounce “chowdah”.
I’m sorry,but I’m very disappointed if this happens. $200 mil payroll…no legit #1 starter…talk of Girardi finding the sane voice in Farnsworth’s head…
Granderson, Renteria, Cabrera, Ordonez, Shef, Rodriguez etc.
No kidding – another 4 game world series, comng up…
Martini 6196-
What package will it take for the Yankees to get Santana?
Angels out? Leaves Boston to fleece the Twins!Unless the Yankees are meeting with the Twins tonight, he’s traded to the Red Sox, with a 72 hour window. Now that doesn’t mean he’ll sign. Hope he goes to FA, because the way I look at it, the team that gets him is paying huge FA money + giving up significant talent.
Bet is Cabrera stays with the Marlins this year. He’s getting in better shape and the two years remaining till FA will make him more valuable in 2008 either before the trading deadline or at the end of next season. Thought- Would they be interested in unloading salary by dumping Dontrelle Willis, who’s pitched poorly last two seasons, but it all may be mechanics as his velocity is still good?
Another young lefty on the Marlins is Scott Olson, who has a lot of potential, and could give the Yankees another lefty in the rotation.
Bullpen will be a problem. Vizcaino is definetely not worth a 4 year Farnsworth contract. He was lousy the first half of the year and also faded the last few weeks of the season.
Thoughts for another starting lefty and the bullpen.
Twinkies playing this one right. The Yankee package of Hughes, Melky, thrown-in is basically Santana for Huges straight up since they don’t value Melky at all. Melky was only projected by the Yankees themselves to be a 4th OF as well. Let’s not forget that.
I still don’t understand why Yankees won’t do the Twin’s proposed package of Hughes, Melky, Marquez, Horne. Projected #4 starters aren’t something that should stop you from getting the best pitcher in baseball in his prime.
no Porcello
Wow– good ESPN feature… ASAP
Im in love with Miguel Cabrera.
Bet Santana goes to the Angels now that they have the prospects to move that they had penciled in for the Marlins
Wow– Tigers are a monster!
Another point, this will put added pressure on Hughes to perform, now that he has the stigma of “We didn’t trade Santana for you” for the rest of his career.
the national league really is irrelevant. completely.
Lets’ see .. Miggy Cabrera has numbers similar to Arod and Pujols.. do we even try to low ball the Marlins to try and get him? Or throw a bunch of B prospects with an A or Two..
point is .. we don’t even *TRY*…
SO PEOPLE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE F ARE WE DOING AT THESE MEETINGS??
Don’t say the Clippard deal either.. OMG.. GO GET’EM HANK..!!!
Joba made next!
Hope Chamberlain doesn’t miss Youkilis’ head this year.
Peter Gammons uses lotion wayy to much.
According to my dad the Tigers Marlins deal with Cabera just went final so excpect the Angles to become major player in Santana
Could it be that the Twinkie Music stopped & the Yankees were already sitting in the only chair left and the Sox are looking for a seat to go hide?
I for one think Santana is great. I also think the Twins need to get as much as they can for him. (I would if I were them.) But I believe they overestimated the hunger the Yanks have for Santana now. I’m sure Santana knows how much he is wanted by NYY & others. (Hint Large amount of numbers & $ sign.)
Santana can be the good guy here & not waive his no trade clause after finding out what Boston thinks he is worth. So then he stays in MN & has a great year & the fans love him even more. And when the penny pinchers in Twinkie land don’t resign him & Yankees do it will be plenty of foder for Boston as well.
larry beinfest is a good GM. maybin and andrew miller. well done.
I think a Tabata/Hughes deal would have been our equivalent, but I still don’t think that beats Maybin+Miller.
Hitting isn’t an issue for us.
Link for what– the Ventura for Bubba and Scotty trade ? lol
One of my favorites… If you think about it, a great deal by Cashman, got a lot of use from both players…
Dombrowksi hasn’t made many bad moves either
If Hank Steinbrenner was smart, he would take out his Big Stick, act like teddy rosevelt. Then he would fire Cash, and he would hire BILLY BEANE, the genius, the smartest general manager ever.
No playoffs for the Yanks next year.
The WC comes out of the AL Central.
Was hoping we didnt have to face Howie Kendrick this year – he kills us. Guess here is Moreno is on the horn to Reagins to “acquire Santana at any cost”.
yeah, good move for both teams. this is better than what the angels were offering. maybin, miller and FOUR prospects. if porcello is in that group, that would be awesome for the marlins.
ESPN just said that Miggy and Dontrelle to the Tigers is done!!!
My bad. Porcello couldn’t be part of deal due to 1 year rule. Yes, Yankees give them Horne and Marquez. We are talking a HOF quality pitcher. And those two are not top of the rotation guys even if everything works out. This unless Cash has decided that he no longer wants to include PH. That may be the case with Andy back.
Yanks biggest move of the Winter meetings may be trading Clip for another overweight reliever. He’ll have someone to hang out with if Bruney and Britton stay.
Posted my thoughts a few seconds too soon! Cabrera and Willis for 6 Tigers. Incredible. The AL is the strongest league and now the Yankees look to be behind the Tigers, Red Sox, Angels, and Indians. Could be the first year in a long while with no playoff opportunity!
Girardi interview was just on SNY – caught the end of it anyone here what he said?
HITTING IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR US.. PITCHING ISNT FOR BOSTON EITHER.. BUT BOSTONS ARMS DIDN”T GO COLD LIKE OUR BATS HAVE IN THE POST SEASON THE LAST FOUR YEARS!!
But.. “hitting is not an issue” ????? !!!! ?????
200+ Million payroll .. new stadium.. last year of Ruth’s house .. and NO FRIGGIN ACE..
OK.. I AM SOOOOOOOOO FRUSTRATED! Don’t be surprised of George Steinbrenner dies this week either.. that isn’t meant to be funny.. My stress level with this nonsense is through the roof.. I can only imagine his.
EY, Hughes and Joba are on the team but they are only going to be able to pich 150 innings next year at the most. They wont be ready to pitch 200 innings for another 2-3 years. Who is going to pich for this team in Aug. and Sept? Forget about Oct. This team is built for now not the future.
We are sitting around and watching the rest of the al teams catch us
Red Sox are Tigers are now the 2 best teams in baseball. Yanks don’t even come close. End of Story.
Please METS GET IN ON THIS. JUST GET AWAY FROM THE AL JOHAN. ANYTHING TO GET THE REDSOX NOT TO WIN THIS WAR
Think we can go back with a Hughes- Jackson-Horne package and get it done?
Scratch Peavey from any future Free Agent lists:
From the AP: Peavey, Pads $52M Extension
SAN DIEGO (AP) — When he returns from a hunting trip, NL Cy Young winner Jake Peavy will bag the biggest contract by far in San Diego Padres history.
Once the deal is finalized, the right-hander will be guaranteed $52 million from a three-year extension that will run from 2010-12. Should the team exercise a $22 million option for 2013, the deal will be worth $70 million.
Including 2008-09, for which Peavy already is under contract, he could make $87.5 million during the next six seasons.
The extension is contingent on the 26-year-old Peavy passing a physical. The two sides are continuing to work on other details, including the scope of no-trade provisions.
Shamus – Sterling Hitchcock, Russ Davis for Tino Martinez, Jeff Nelson and Jim Mecir. Best NYY trade before Justice…
No playoffs for the Yankees next year? The WC coming out of the AL Central.
You mean like this season?
Wow, more nonsense.
rachel,
joba won the next competition?
So what do we make of the Angels denying interest in JS? Sounded pretty declarative and he must have known by then that Miggy was gone to Motown.
Verlander, Rogers, Bonderman, Robertson, Willis
Granderson-Polanco-Sheff-Maggs-Cabrera-Guillen-Renteria-Pudge-Jones
I’d say they are better than the Yanks??
Shamus – Russ Davis, Sterling Hitchcock for Tino, Jeff Nelson and Jim Mecir.
“No playoffs for the Yankees next year? The WC coming out of the AL Central.
You mean like this season?
Wow, more nonsense.”
–Ummm, no, unlike last year.
Tigers Marlins trade seems to benefit both teams… what a concept!
Captains Corner, you make a wonderful point, Hughes and Joba can only pitch 150ish innings, which is why we need an ace.
What do we have.. A BUNCH OF USED CAR SALESMAN RUNNING THE YANKEES!!??
No.. actually we have a friggin Horse man and a paper boy..
rebecca!!!
LOL i meant rebecca! not rachel! you confused me when you posted about someone calling you rachel the other day…
sorry
I know you’re not going to pay attention (cause you’ll dismiss anything you don’t want to hear), but two things:
1. good players don’t make it to free agency anymore. not for all practical purposes. that route is now closed to the Yankees.
2. your prospects are good…really good (at least the pitching ones)…but they’re still PROSPECTS….to get major talent you’re going to have to give up enough to hurt. the suggestions I’m seeing here for Cabrera, Haren etc. are just laughable. Santana was the one player who you had leverage on (cause only a couple other teams can afford him)…but you still didn’t offer quite enough for him.
3. my guess is that the Yankees do end up overpaying eventually for someone when you realize that you’re not going to land anyone. but if you were going to overpay for anyone, it should have been Santana…
NYPD – are you serious?
It will be fun to watch the Tigers this year..
The only actually good pitcher in that group is Verlander. Bonderman could be, but he took a huge step back last year. Rogers is in his 40s and can fall of the cliff at any time. Willis is a joke. Robertson too.
Pretty darned good offense, though.
Pudge ain’t Pudge anymore, Renteria has not played well in the AL, Sheff has had some injury issues. I’ll take our line-up. It is the lack of an ace that has me worried (unless PH of Joba blossoms).
So Cashman sees fit for the Yanks to stand pat with the same team that couldn’t compete in the first round of the playoffs?
Meanwhile, Boston gets another ace to go along with Beckett and Detroit becomes a powerhouse with Cabrera and Willis.
Do the Yanks even really want to contend in 2008?
Central is top to bottom better than the East now so I’d say it is easier to come out of the East, wouldn’t you? The Indians, Tigers, Twins, White Sox, Royals? Ah maybe not, pretty even actually
“NYPD – are you serious?”
Dead.
The games haven’t started yet. Nobody is better than anybody yet.
It impacts the Indians more than the Yankees. They are the Tigers division rivals.
Its not like the Indians are some juggernaut.
Man, when has this blog become so inflicted with chicken little’s.
By the end of the night, we will have our first, Yankees will lose 90 games and finish behind Tampa Bay” post.
Pete:
Any chance the Yankees come back in the bottom of the 9th, two outs, two strikes and get Santana before he ends up in Boston?
TwinsFan, how does it make you feel that your GM took a deal that includes zero good players?
TwinsfaninNY, I do agree with you on that post. Then again, I am the minority here, no one listens to me here. Yet, I have been right more often than not.
Our lineup isn’t a bunch of spring chickens though. I’m sure Posada will decline a little from a career year. Matsui and Damon were gone a big chunk of the season, Giambi hasn’t played a full season yet. Jeter seems to get dinged up but is a gamer and hangs in there
Oooh, NYPD113th has spoken! I am terrified!
Jackass.
Thanks, SJ – everybody needs to relax a little bit. Even if we got Santana (which we still might, but I also still think Cash should stand firm), it wouldn’t affect the trades to Detroit.
Haha, Tampa Bay is getting better
That’s a lot right handed bats in the Tiger lineup.
Andrew – their bullpen may be questionable as well with Zumaya out. Tigers have a team built for the regular season…. not the playoffs. Sox will be the overwhelming favorites if they complete this deal. I see the Yanks as top 3-4. but they still have to play the games.
NYPD – Ok, I didnt want to call you an idiot before knowing that. Idiot.
“Oooh, NYPD113th has spoken! I am terrified!
Jackass.”
You’re pissed and frustrated, I would be too.
That’s fine, feel free to vent like a child and namecall
Yes, Rogers Bonderman Willis and Robertson are all coming off such fine, confidence inducing years. And its not like Mags is injury prone and Sheff and Pudge had bad years.
Oh, and Cleveland is a lock because they added……. while the Yankees have injected some high quality youth. Lets not jump the gun here.
Zumaya is only out til the AS break reportedly, well that was way back when he got hurt so who knows
SJ44,
I usually agree with what you say.. but the Yankee’s have dropped the ball many times since Hank Took over.. so he signed Mo,Po and Arod .. good job.. Mo .. well we can give him 15mil x 3 .. enjoy that one.. mark my words.
Also, all we have at the winter meetings so far is the Clippard trade… all that talent out there.. all our ‘pieces’ and that is what we have to show for it??
C’mon man.. we should have done better than that already.
If true, this is good news for the Yanks as it takes Cabrera off of the Angels radar. Now they can go full bore after Johan and they have the chips to land him. Get it done, new LAA GM. You are already giving the Twins a draft pick, might as well toss a few prospects/young guys their way.
“Its not like the Indians are some juggernaut.”
They were good enough to dominate the Yanks in the division series.
“NYPD – Ok, I didnt want to call you an idiot before knowing that. Idiot.”
-LMAO
Fleas – people in here listen, but you cant always change people’s opinions.
Twins Fan’s purpose for being here is to cause trouble. If you have an alternate opinion that’s fine. If you are trying to piss people off, that’s not gonna fly.
Maybe you guys already saw this earlier but thought it was funny
Not to be outdone by Oscar de la Hoya modeling a Russian stripper’s lingerie, Mets pitcher John Maine approached a Page Six writer at Touch night club and begged to try on her dress.
[Maine] later approached PageSix.com and asked to test-drive our frock as well. “I’m John Maine. I pitch for the Mets! I’m a hot piece of ass!†he kept repeating. He claimed that he was on his way to a drag party later that night. “Come on, I’ll give you $200 to try on your dress,†he begged. “Just to take a picture. It’ll be fun.â€
The New York Daily News added this:
John Maine followed an attractive young woman into the ladies’ bathroom. He even went into the stall with her, [then] “asked her if he could try on the little black dress she was wearing,” laughs our snitch.
“They were good enough to dominate the Yanks in the division series.”
–Bugs beat the Yanks, not Indians, remember??
Didn’t Gammons declare there was no way Tigers make that deal for Cabrera and Willis? Then they make him announce the deal 5 minutes later.
marc,
Thanks, man. I can honestly say that’s the first time I’ve been called that!
Went out for a few hours, did I miss anything?
From what I can gather, the Red Sox are a little perturbed that they got stuck with the bill.
We’ll see. I wonder how long it will take for Johan to be insulted by their offers and throw up his hands in disgust?
Johan must be a little disappointed. Putting aside any preference for the uni, someone just stole $5M per year from him.
What’s the latest? Are the Yankees officially out at this point?
p.s. Fleas – I would give up alot more than most for Santana (Hughes, Melky, AJax) but it doesnt matter. just my opinion and the twins wanted more anyway.
Santana will be an Angel.
When Arod re-signed with the Yankees, that all but assured the Angels would divert resources to Johan Santana or Miguel Cabrera. The Tigers saved our butts by swiping Cabrera.
Damn Tigers!
Tigers were willing to take a BIG leap and deal Maybin who they thought would be a star and Miller who they gave a ton of money to a lefty starter who they loved, and Cash can’t part with Horne and Jackson..Give me a break. The best gm’s are willing to make a deal that might come back to bite them and “just go for it.” Hank was right it will be a rebuilding year but don’t forgot Arod will be hitting 50 homeruns..Come for the show!!!
Andrew, I’d like to see the Twins get more, yes.
but the Sox are offering two ML starters, two guys just about ready for the bigs and a high-ceiling prospect.
the Yankees were offering one high-ceiling ML starter, one ML starter, and a castoff.
it’s pretty easy to see why the Twins prefer the Sox offer.
Personally I think it would be a little refreshing to be underdogs. Remove the pressure to win the World Series, let the kids play, if we miss out on the playoffs this year, but are better in the long run, who cares?
When we hired Girardi we entered a 3 year plan. Yeah I know, Rivera, Posada, aging veterans, built for now, blah blah blah…just relax.
This is the price we pay for years of trading away talent for old veterans.
Welcome to what baseball is like for the rest of the world.
Oy.
I’m talking to you pessimists (ugh, how you disgust me)
Was not the AL Central supposed to be the best division in baseball last year?
Did not the Yanks ride roughshod over them? (I still hold they got unlucky in the playoffs, bleedin’ gnats!)
Sheesh.
I know the weather makes it seem like we’re in the middle of Cocytus, but seriously, folks.
come on.
NYPD113th December 4th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
“They were good enough to dominate the Yanks in the division series.â€
–’Excuses’ beat the Yanks, not Indians, remember??
Edited to make it true
Fleas – the winter meetings just started. the only deal the yanks worked on (that we know of) was santana. the yanks couldnt have done much more. i wish they could have grabbed riske or linebrink but its early.
And things will really get ugly if Hughes doesn’t get that 3 mph back on his fastball (and teams like Detroit hit 100 HR’s off him like they did last year) and his curveball continues to roll. Remember that most prospects don’t pan out.
I feel bad for Girardi to be given this stinker of a team (in comparison to Boston, Detroit, Cleveland)
Jeez, it’s a long offseason people, I wouldn’t go crucifying Cashman for perceived inertia just yet.
The sky isn’t falling, folks.
I’m all for rebuilding. Maybe it’ll help shake some of I NEED TO WIN NOW AT ANY COST bandwagon fans.
Oh my god– on Comcast sports’ Mohegan Sports Tonight, Sean McAdam just told Greg Felger and Gary Dickerson that the deal is OFFICIALLY:
(put on diapers Yankees fans, you will need them!)
Lester, Masterson and Kalish…
Does that make any sense…
You mean Hughes, Horne and Melky doesn’t match up with that ?
The Sox keep Ellsbury, Lester and Crap-Crap Crisp?
Highway Robbery!
Maverick -
you have a link to that? that’s funny.
The ‘pieces’ weren’t developed to trade. They will developed to pitch and win in the Bronx for the next 10-15 years.
So far, the Yankees have resisted the temptation to acquire past success in favor of future rewards. I’m cautiously optimistic they will continue to do so throughout the offseason.
Winning in November/December doesn’t always translate to winning in October. As Yankee fans, we all know that.
These teams still have to take the field, they still have to play baseball April-September.
Not a big fan of Hankee so far but I do agree with what he said earlier…Let’s go with what we got.
yanks might not even make the playoffs this year. it’s a strong possibility.
I like the idea of being an underdog, there’s so much pressure on us every year. Same goes next year but there’s more pressure in Boston. You can’t stop the youth movement. Keep it going strong.
shamus – i am watching that and there is no mention of the trade. nice try.
Philip Hughes is being underrated, the guy is a veteran pitcher in a rookie body.
JJ, I agree – I’m a Yankees fan for life, and not just for one year. For the record, I still think the Yankees will be right there at the end of the regular season. But if they’re not, I could live with that for a chance at a much better future. And I say that as a fan who doesn’t really remember the pre-dynasty years. I like this new direction, a lot.
Boston Dave,
I saw it at withleather.com, sports blog that usually has obscure post about things. http://www.pagesix.com/story/mets+pitcher+drag
The Angels could easily nab Santana for Nick Adenhart, Brandon Wood and Willits.
Yes, NYPD. I’m terrified and frustrated. Please, hold me.
And thanks. I will continue the namecalling. Moron.
Now all the Sux have to do is pony up $150 million, which mind you is more than Double the current ownership’s largest contract signed to date – $75 mill for JD Poo(excluding $50 mill Dice-K posting fee).
sweet Maverick… cant wait to send that to my mets fans friends. thanks.
“Andrew, I’d like to see the Twins get more, yes.
but the Sox are offering two ML starters, two guys just about ready for the bigs and a high-ceiling prospect.
the Yankees were offering one high-ceiling ML starter, one ML starter, and a castoff.
it’s pretty easy to see why the Twins prefer the Sox offer.”
Careful Twins, this is MELKY CABRERA we’re talking about.
Good move for both the Tigers and Marlins. Marlins get nearly if not equal value for Willis and Cabrera. Plus they save a boatload of money. This could be a greta deal for the Marlins over the long run. Willis has not been great and now he is going to the AL. Cabrera has attitude problems. The other two could be amazing. You really wont see who made out better until at least a couple of years.
yeah the Yanks have not gotten better mental midgets.. really.. hughes for a full season, joba for a full season, IPK for a full season and all the young arms in the pen are not better then the likes of; wright, desalvo, pavano, and others..
Yeah Molina is not better then the backup hack the yanks had for 1/2 the season.
Yeah Melky has hit his prime at 22 and same with Cano at 24…
The world is at an end.. See Moose gets worse at 38 but kenny rogers at 40+ and Todd Jones the same get better..
Sure the Tigers offense gets better but they lose a young stud starter with huge upside and they already traded Jurgen.. what if they have a injury in the rotation???There defense gets worse also… That is right Ordonez is going to have another lifetime yr. but Arod will not…(the moron double standard)..
The ANgels will go after Santana now that they lost Cabrera….
The woosies on this site are scary…
Dude I justs aw it.. Why would I lie? McAdams was just on talking to them thats what he said…
Npow, theya re talking about the Pats game last night with a guy whose name I missed but is wearing a purple shirt…
Mel, Yeah twinsfan tried to rip you a new one, I forgot what it was he said, but it looks like Angels are making the 1st real deal for the great Carlos Santana. Oye como va!
“Yes, NYPD. I’m terrified and frustrated. Please, hold me.
And thanks. I will continue the namecalling. Moron.”
Well, you did ask nicely, and I do know that those with Downs Syndrome like to give great big hugs.
Dave…
Didn’t say deal was official…
Said package was officially Lester, Masterson and Kalish, and Felger called it a heist.
Now Felger just called Brady “off balanced” last night
new post from pete.
Maverick…
on John Maine in that article:
The 26-year-old is one of the top 10 starting pitchers in the National League, earning him the nickname “The Maine Man.â€
Top 10?? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
The Yanks aren’t just underdogs now…they’re barely in the same class with Boston or Detroit.
There really was no reason to sign Mo, Arod or Posada if they weren’t going to try and improve the team and contend in 2008. Who friggin’ cares if ARod chases the HR record if the team stinks? And now they’ll go into the new stadium with this group?
The team, thanks to Cashman, is a complete mess.
Shamus – it was not on the show you said it was.
Cashman has been George’s whipping boy for years. Do you really think he wanted RJ? Sheffield (he wanted Vlad)?
We should applaud his efforts to rebuild the farm, not crucify him for continuing the vicious cycle of overpaying.
I remember John Heyman lambasting him for NOT giving up Kennedy for Gagne last year – how’s that move look right now?
Exactly rb15!
I became a fan in the early 80′s as a kid, and went through alot of really crappy years. It felt SO amazing to finally see them win the WS in 96, and go on through the dynasty with a solid core of homegrown talent. It’s so much sweeter that way IMHO.
TwinsfaninNY
Who is the second ML starter that the Red Sox offered? From all the deals I have seen its just lester who has pitched in the bigs
McAdam said thats what the Lester package was: Lester, MAsterson and OF Kalish, who came out of nowhere this afternoon…
No idea what the Ellsbury package is built around… though…
Maybe it’s a good thing to let our prospects have a chance to fail instead of some expensive free agent. The letdown can’t be as bad.
“Most Prospects don’t pan out” very true, that’s because most prospects aren’t as good as the top 3 in the Yankees system. The Yankee’s system is stacked with extremely promising kids both on the mound, and in the field. Cash and Oppenheimer have used the July 2nd signing period masterfully and loaded up on some very young, but very talented kids. They have also had 2 very good drafts in a row. Patience is the order of the day.
Monhegan Sports Tongiht !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am WATCHING IT NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! McAdam was jsut on talking to them, now, maybe 7-10 minutes ago, from Nashville, Tenn.
Don’t tell me what I saw, pally.
yep….cashmoron had nothing to do with signing or trading for losers like carl pavano, jaret wright, kevin brown, 57 year old Randy Johnson, old man Clemens, Kyle Farnsworthless, Steve Karsay, Javier Vazquez, etc. The list goes on and on. Fact of the matter is, he’s done an ATROCIOUS job putting a quality staff together.
I like Peter Gammons!! He is funny & biased, but he provides the real Boston flavor to things. Most of the time I don’t believe him. LOL!
Sorry to spoil the fun on Maine but the Bergen Record Mets blog is saying it’s not true because he wasn’t even in town (according to the Mets).
http://njmg.typepad.com/metsblog/
Let’s see how much frothing at the mouth Gammons does when it comes time to talk about Santana signing on the dotted line.
He said himself that his Socks would have to re-work the contract of Beckett to keep him happy.
Lots of ramifications of a Santana deal for Bahhhstin beyond the player deal.
No fat lady sighting yet at the Opryland Hotel.
“Lots of ramifications of a Santana deal for Bahhhstin beyond the player deal.”
Yep. Terrible, terrible problem.
Tomy Gun: not a pitcher
this is a horrible day for the yankees. no other way to put it. 2 teams in the AL have gotten significantly better and the yanks are not much better than last year.
Johan Santana to the Red Sox is all but done. Jon Lester, a center fielder, Justin Masterson and Ryan Kalish are the package. More details now.- Will Carrol
That offer is better than Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Alberto Gonzalez, How do the twins possibly think that?
Lester
Majors: 144 innings, 4.68 era, 1.57 whip, 110 k’s
Minors: 483 innings, 3.33 era, 1.31 whip, 446 k’s
Hughes
Majors: 72 innings, 4.46 era, 1.28 whip, 58 k’s
Minors: 275 innings, 2.03 era, 0.86 whip, 311 k’s
Hughes has Lester beat in era, whip and k/9 in the majors and minors.
Masterson has pitched in A and AA FOR 185 innings with a 3.7 era, 148 ks and a 1.16 whip. Marquez in A and AA for 458 innings with 3.4 era, 345 ks and a 1.38 whip. So marquez has a better era, about equal strike out ratio and masterson has better whip. Masterson seems slightly better.
Kalish hit 317 in low A ball with a 406 obp and no power. Gonzalez in AA hit 330 with a 383 obp some speed and no power. Gonzalez def has the edge because he hit better in a harder league and is clearly better defensively since he is known for his defense.
Melky put up a better avg, obp than coco with less speed and is making 9 million over the next two yrs less than coco. So if crisp is the centerfielder, melky has the edge esp considering the twins are a very cheap franchise.
So with Lester not even competition with hughes, Gonzalez edging Kalish and Melky better and cheaper than crisp, the only sock who is better than the comparable yankees prospect is Masterson who is obviously better than marquez but not even close to the amount that hughes is better than lester. And the centerpiece of the deal should really be the deal maker. What the hell are the twins thinking?
The Indians “dominated” the Yankees in the ALDS?
Gee, I must have been watching the wrong series.
A 2-1 extra inning game and a close home loss is “dominating”.
Just put your head under the covers and call it a night.
You are clearly too immature to have a rational conversation.
You sound like the Yankees are some hack team.
They have the entire offense back that scored 968 runs.
They have 3 of the best young arms in the game to go along with Wang and Pettitte.
I guess you think Wang will always pitch poorly in the post-season because players never improve, correct?
Really, I can handle a little of the “sky is falling” with the best of them.
The rash overstatements and childish carrying on? Aren’t there other blogs you can spew that nonsense on?
We kind of pride ourselves here as being above the usual drivel.