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No deal for Santana … for now

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 04, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

So much for self-imposed deadlines. Hank Steinbrenner says the Johan Santana talks are over, but didn’t declare them dead.

Unless Boston is serious and lands him soon, don’t be surprised if the Yankees get back in it. It’s Dec. 4. The season doesn’t start for 117 days. The Yankees remain one of a small number of teams with both the prospects and cash to make this trade.

Now the Yankees may look into Dan Haren. Good pitcher, economical contract. Worth Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera? I don’t see it.

Hold on tight, these Meetings are just getting started.

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147 Responses to “No deal for Santana … for now”

  1. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 9:39 am

    Was it Hank’s deadline that made the deal cold?

  2. Virginia December 4th, 2007 at 9:40 am

    Please no Haren. Haren’s career numbers are good — at best. I think Hughes can duplicate Haren’s success instantly, while costing us less (though Haren’s contract is reasonable). Furthermore, we keep Melky and any other prospects Beane would try to steal.

    Haren is perfect for a small-market team that has a wealth of prospects (due to his reasonable contract).

    I’m thrilled the Yankees didn’t pull the trigger on Santana. Terrified of the Red Sox progressing.

    Does anyone understand why the Twins didn’t relent on the Yankees refusal to improve the deal WHILE they did just that for the Red Sox?! Tough stance with the Bronx… roll over for Boston (for a weaker package). Seems fishy.

  3. Gerry December 4th, 2007 at 9:41 am

    sweet.. if the red sox don’t strike a deal with him.. the yankees win..

    their defense is far superior with damon in left and melkman in center. Phil Hughes was really strong towards the end too.

  4. Gerry December 4th, 2007 at 9:44 am

    it also appears that a combo of lester, crisp and lowrie and a 4th unknown is better than the yankees giving hughes, cabrera and a decent 3rd?

    Hughes > Lester … Yanks
    Melkman > Crisp … Yanks
    ? = Lowrie … Sox
    ? = ?

  5. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 9:45 am

    This is all just media manipulation. Minny cant trade Santana unless he wants to be traded. Its as simple as that.

    And where does he want to be traded to’??? You guessed it…

  6. wood is good December 4th, 2007 at 9:45 am

    Flam gets it 100 percent.

  7. JohnnyC December 4th, 2007 at 9:46 am

    No, it’s the Twins’ determination to rob the Yankees blind. Fine. Let the Sox have him, sign him to a $150 million contract and watch the the clubhouse implode as Beckett and others scream to ge their deals renegotiated. That the Red Sox will refuse to do so (and rightly) won’t matter. The last time the Sox had 2 aces (Pedro and Schilling), they didn’t win the division and would’ve lost the ALCS except for some bad luck or bad managing (pick one).

  8. mike f December 4th, 2007 at 9:46 am

    virginia, i agree, i find it hard to believe that the twins are now happy to make the same deal from the red sox that they rejected the last couple of days. we’ll have to see how it plays out, but i really hope that NO deal including phil hughes is made for anyone not named santana.

  9. Ty December 4th, 2007 at 9:46 am

    Yankees would be better served by going after a Street/Harden package. Harden would simply be a throw in wtih ace potential if healthy. Street would easily go a long way to solidifying our bullpen.

  10. Jeff NJ December 4th, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Forget Haren, he’s good and all, but I’d just as soon keep Phil. If the Sox get Santana hopefully we will look back at this day and say it was great that the Hughes deal didn’t go down. Sometimes the best deals are the onew you don’t do.

    I kinda like the combination of Hank and Cash. Hank will overpay and go after the best players, Cash keeps him grounded in developing the youth. If the Red Sox can’t make the deal and the Yankees get back in, I don’t think any less of Hank, however if they cave and give Kennedy and Hughes, I will be disgusted.

  11. Scottso December 4th, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Not sure why everyone keeps saying the Red Sox deal is worse…

    Lester and Hughes are very comparable, with the edge to Hughes. Melky and Crisp are close to equal. Who knows who the Yankees are offering their 3rd prospect, but the Red Sox are offering two more type b prospects.

    Everyone needs to stop treating Melky like he is Grady Sizemore, he is nothing more than an average CF, maybe slightly above at best.

  12. Jonathan C. December 4th, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Remember what Pete said a while back – this is a new GM who is trading his most popular player. He has to sell it to the fans. Keep this is mind when you read about that Red Sox offer.

  13. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 9:48 am

    There aren’t very many examples of players without NTCs forcing their team to trade them to one specific team. Only examples I can think of are Terrell Owens and maybe Scott Rolen.

  14. haren? December 4th, 2007 at 9:48 am

    for santana, yes

    for haren, absurd

    rather give up hughes and melky and ian for santana, than any one of them for haren (well, maybe melky). In three or four years, those two give you two harens

  15. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 9:48 am

    A Harden/Haren deal maybe, as has been suggested, but, the A’s and Street are talking extention.

  16. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 9:49 am

    I said it early yesterday and it seems I may have been right….Here’s how it goes down.

    Twins miss Hank’s deadline and ultimatum meaning we will no longer negotiate…then Smith comes back begging through and Goldman Sachs partner to rekindle negotiations. Hank takes over the negotiation from Cash and instead of Hughes, Melky and Gonzo, Offers Hughes, Melky and the entire Scranton AAA team as a penalty for missing the deadline.

    That’ll teach those bad boys to mess with Hank. He taught Boras and he’ll teach them too!

  17. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 9:49 am

    “Harden would simply be a throw in wtih ace potential if healthy.”

    You think Beane would make a deal where he gives up a young throw-in with ace potential?

  18. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 9:50 am

    Lester and Hughes very comparable? Might want to recheck your Baseball America Prospect Handbook. Lester’s command isn’t even in Phil’s league.

  19. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 9:50 am

    Delaware, Randy Johnson did it…twice.

  20. hughesian bias December 4th, 2007 at 9:51 am

    virginia made a good point.

    why is it that we had to upgrade our offer while the red sox reverted back to their lester/crisp/lowrie/b prospect? i hate the twins. i seriously hope the red sox land santana for a fan favorite like ellsbury (+ prospects) and that he ends up sucking at fenway like he has in the past.

  21. JohnnyC December 4th, 2007 at 9:52 am

    Jonathan is right, unfortunately. Smith can sell trading Santana for a World Series “hero” better than he can for a trio of “potentially” good major leaguers. If the Yankees hadn’t fallen on their faces with their farm system in early 2000s, this is the kind of sleight-of-hand deal they could have made over and over for major talent like Santana. The Red Sox are reaping the benefits of winning AND keeping their farm system stocked with passable prospects (we didn’t even have an Eric Milton to trade for almost 10 years).

  22. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 9:53 am

    Harden will never stay healthy enough to be an ace. He’d make a great setup guy for Rivera, though.

  23. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 9:53 am

    yeah, the first two players under any objective rating system are better in the yankees’ offer. but, the red sox are offering four guys. maybe the twins want quantity.

  24. Jeter8 December 4th, 2007 at 9:54 am

    big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 9:49 am

    I said it early yesterday and it seems I may have been right….Here’s how it goes down.

    Twins miss Hank’s deadline and ultimatum meaning we will no longer negotiate…then Smith comes back begging through and Goldman Sachs partner to rekindle negotiations. Hank takes over the negotiation from Cash and instead of Hughes, Melky and Gonzo, Offers Hughes, Melky and the entire Scranton AAA team as a penalty for missing the deadline.

    That’ll teach those bad boys to mess with Hank. He taught Boras and he’ll teach them too!

    Its funny to think that Mr Smith (twins GM) Will come running back and begging Hank to make a deal with teh Twins

    When its teh yankee brass that keeps talking and keeps puttin deadlines..

    Minnesota hasnt said a word about accepting or declining any offers..

    again.. open your eyes before you make this comment.. its absurd to think what you just said

  25. JohnnyC December 4th, 2007 at 9:55 am

    I think big Joe was trying to be sarcastic.

  26. Jon December 4th, 2007 at 9:55 am

    Haren is a very good pitcher, but he’s had one really god year, and can’t be considered an ace yet. The A’s probably won’t do the deal w/o Hughes, so I say pass. If they go for IPK, fine, but I wouldn’t give up Hughes.

  27. rconn23 December 4th, 2007 at 9:56 am

    Santana to the Red Sox for Lester as the centerpiece. Wow. Just wow. Hell, maybe the Yanks are in for 86 years of bad luck now.

    If the Yanks get Santana, the only solace would be watching the young pitchers develop. Because we sure as hell won’t be competing for anything.

    I can’t believe the Yankees won’t give up Alan Horne and Austin Jackson. Jackson seems like the next Lastings Milledge, a better athlete than baseball player and Horne is 25 years old and still in Double AA. What am I missing?

    If the Red Sox complete this deal, the division race is over for the next five years. The Yanks must stop this deal.

  28. hughesian bias December 4th, 2007 at 9:56 am

    johnny c –

    hughes was also brilliant in the post season. and he had no one to fall back on if he gave up a bunch of runs. it was a do-or-die moment when he came in relief of clemens and he showed us all what he is capable of under pressure. lester was not under pressure when he started game 7. and as much as i hate to say it, lester’s bout with cancer in the past makes him a liability because it *might* come back again. hughes is definitely the better player, hands down.

  29. Thrillington December 4th, 2007 at 9:56 am

    JohnnyC,

    I hear what you’re saying but the Yankees didn’t exactly “fall on their faces” in terms of prospects or the farm teams in the early 2000s.

    In fact, people like Ted Lilly and Jake Westbrook have gone on to have decent careers.

    Then there’s Cano and Wang.

    It’s not stellar, but it’s not nothing.

  30. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 9:57 am

    big joe,

    what the hell are you talking about? was that sarcasm? Because if it was it was the worst case of sarcasm ever.

    I love how everyone is getting up in arms about this. Minnesota needs a CF and the best one in these talks is Elsbury and theres no way Bostons giving him up, hes a freakin stud. These talks are a facade. Santana will land in the Boogey Down. Give it some time.

  31. Jeff in MA December 4th, 2007 at 9:57 am

    Johnny C’s got it – they’re pretending to favor the Boston deal to try to pry Kennedy away. We’re right to walk away at this point; if Minn. really liked the Boston deal better, they’d have done it by now.

    They insisted on Hughes, we relented and they immediately upped their demand. Luckily our management doesn’t seem as blinded by the “best pitcher in baseball” hype as the Twins would like them to be.

    I would love to have Santana but keeping Hughes and Melky and Kennedy is a pretty decent consolation prize. The world will not end if Johan goes to Boston.

  32. Nolan December 4th, 2007 at 9:57 am

    Lester was not under pressure when he started game 7? Is that what you just said?

  33. Virginia December 4th, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Crisp = Melky? Please. Melky led the ML in outfield assists. Melky is no Grady Sizemore (though Melky is only 22) — but Coco Crisp is coming off of two incredibly poor seasons (where he underperformed the younger, cheaper Melky Cabrera).

    Lowrie and Masterson are supposed to be great prospects. My issue isn’t so much the package, but the negotiating posture. The Yankees make a concession — it’s not enough. The Twins refuse to budge — Bill Smith rolls over.

  34. Ranting Guy December 4th, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Any chance of Haren being acquired for a package that doesn’t include any of the big 3?

    Melky, Horne and one other non-top 3 pitching prospect, and if Billy Beane doesn’t think that’s enough, add just one P or OF prospect? Beane may be a tough cookie and expect a lot in return, and Haren’s good, but Haren isn’t Santana.

    Would Kennedy really need to be part of a Haren deal, or could a cash consideration be used? After all acquiring Haren would save $10-15M per year compared to Santana .

  35. mel December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    Mike,
    LOL. Twins fans must’ve been positively salivating at the possibility of getting Hughes.

    I sincerely hope that Hughes is off the table for any future offer, including Santana. If the Twins revisit it’s because there were problems with Boston.

    I’ve said all along that 2 or 3 of our really good arms that aren’t quite ready for prime time + OF would’ve been great. If they need OF help now, then it has to be Melky who, as a switch hitter, has some value.

    It’s not about posturing or deadlines. The Twins wanted Hughes & IPK in the same deal? Not even close to being possible. Could they have come to some sort of compromise? Like Hughes, Melky, Horne & Jackson? Yes, expensive but Yes. Yet the talks disintigrated even when it became apparent that the Sox are serious players.

    Because it gave the Yankees a chance to pull Phil off the table. People think Hank is running the show? This is Cashman’s influence you’re seeing here. Even Stick was willing to let Hughes go. Hughes should’ve never been on the table in the first place.

  36. sunny615 December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    I honestly don’t understand what Smith’s issue is with the Yankees’ offer. And why it’s considered a worse package than Boston’s. If the twins want quantity, give em DeSalvo, Wright, Eric Duncan, and Sardhina. Hughes has a much bigger ceiling than Lester. Melky is the cheaper version of Crisp (by about 9 and a half million dollars), and any B type prospect Boston has, the Yankees can at least match… I don’t understand this Boston Love that permutates baseball these days – especially when it comes to trades.

  37. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    Comparison For Whip/BAA/ERA
    Haren 1.21/.247/3.07
    IPK 1.16/.191/1.89
    Hughes 1.28/.235/4.46 (era for 5 starts in Sept – 2.73)
    Chamberlain – Not even worth discussing

    I know the sample sizes on our kids is small but for me I’ll take my chances with the big 3 unless it was a straight up trade for kennedy or hughes. Remember Haren is a righty so he gets no lefty premium either.

  38. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    Neither Westbrook or Lilly were Yankee draftees.

  39. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    I really think that Beane would be more interested in receiving several good prospects (IPK, Horne, Jackson, Tabata, Melky, etc.) than one great one (Hughes, Joba, Cano, etc.) and change. His farm is shot. If he deals Haren he is basically waving a white flag on 2008 and going for it for 2009 and beyond. I don’t think that the deal would require Hughes, but that doesn’t mean the price wouldn’t be steep.

  40. Pickett December 4th, 2007 at 9:59 am

    Santana wants to go to the Yankees and would probably veto a trade to Boston so it doesn’t matter that Boston’s offer is inferior to the Yank’s. It’s not going to happen and Boston is merely posturing to drive up the price for the Yankees. What’s this facination with Jacoby Ellsbury, anyway? Sure, he’s a good young player but with his physique he will battle injuries his whole career. Lester? He is recovering from Cancer with no guarantee that he will stay in remission (I wish him the best). The other two players Boston is offering are cannon fodder. So, do you really believe that Minny is willing to accept that offer? Why would Minny want Hughes from the Yankees but not demand Buchholz plus Ellsbury from the Sox? This smells so bad, it’s obvious that the Twins are trying to squeeze the Yankees. I hope the trade never happens and we sign Santana in ’09. Keep the young players and focus on bullpen depth. I’m willing to wait for the pendulum to swing back in our direction. Right now, it’s the Red Sox time. We have broad shoulders – we can wait another year. Walk away, Hank because Santana is not going to the Red Sox and everyone knows it. Who said this??: “…sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make.”

  41. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 10:00 am

    my only disagreement with the yankees stance is why they are so reluctant to include either horne or jackson and see if that lands santana. that’s a completely fair package. hughes/melky/third mediocre prospect is a little short in my mind.

  42. hughesian bias December 4th, 2007 at 10:00 am

    nope, i meant that he wasnt under as much pressure as hughes was when hughes came to pitch in relief of clemens. he was pitching in a 3-0 series lead at colorado, worse case scenario he loses the game and the RS go back to boston to win it.

    hughes coming in relief of clemens on elimination day is definitely a more pressure situation.

  43. JohnnyC December 4th, 2007 at 10:01 am

    Let’s look at it this way. Let Santana go to the Sox if he goes and then…stand pat. Don’t trade for Haren or Bedard (they’ll be looking for Hughes + as well and that’s not worth it). Realize that chances are you will have to win the wild card while the Red Sox take the division. But…realize also that you can take the Sox out in the ALCS. We’ve shown we can beat these guys (we beat them this year head to head) and we will probably be better next year than we were in 2007 (continued development from the young guns, deeper bench, better bullpen hopefully). It’s been proven that wild card teams have just as good a chance of winning it all as division winners. Let’s not panic. Let the Red Sox throw their payroll completely out of whack and let’s ambush ‘em in the ALCS.

  44. E-ROC December 4th, 2007 at 10:02 am

    I would trade for Rich Harden and make him a setup man.

  45. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:02 am

    Jeter8 – you are a genius…this was a knock on Hank for not sticking to his guns and being a blowhard. You need to open your eyes and think when you read. Although the twins do want Hank in it to drive up the price, no question about that.

  46. .....YO..... December 4th, 2007 at 10:02 am

    Haren Worth Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera????
    NO NO NO

    Santana is much better.
    He also has the best changeup in major league.

    Santana>>Haren

  47. hughesian bias December 4th, 2007 at 10:03 am

    berra 8,

    its because they want hughes+melky+horne+jackson or hughes+melky+horne+IPK.

    and both of those are just too much. everyone forgets about the $150 million multi-year deal awaiting after the trade. AND everyone also forgets that we can just not get involved, the red sox won’t get him (they don’t need him, so they won’t give minny a fair trade for johan) and we can sign him after next year.

  48. Nolan December 4th, 2007 at 10:04 am

    I wouldn’t be too sure about the Red Sox not getting him.

  49. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:04 am

    I think folks here underestimate Red Sox revenue and finacial capabilities. They are very saavy and Theo is truly spectacular. I like Cash but Theo’s been better.

  50. bottom line December 4th, 2007 at 10:05 am

    Lester and Hughes are very comparable?

    You could not have seen both of them pitch, or followed their minor league careers or bothered to notice the overwhelming consensus of scouts to suggest that Lester is anywhere near the same level as Hughes. Phil Hughes was by consensus the best or second-best pitching prospect in all of baseball beginning last year. Even before his very serious episode with cancer, Lester was never ranked anywhere near that. Typically, he was ranked behind the likes of Craig Hansen and Anibal Sanchez and Michael Bowden (all either disappointments or looming mediocrities) even within the Red Sox system. Also, this is a pitcher who whould wear the number 5 1/3 (or perhaps 4 2/3) on his back. He is so wild — and not scary wild or great-stuff wild, just wild) that he is typically near 100 pitches by the sixth inning. He does tantalize with an above-average breaking ball that can be effective, but only episodically is.

    Makre these words: if the Twins trade for Jon Lester (without Elsbury or Bucholz) they will regret this error for the next ten years.

  51. mel December 4th, 2007 at 10:06 am

    berra8,

    It’s because they really don’t want to give up Hughes. The deal breaker was the 3rd player, none of whom are better than Hughes, so what’s the big deal? This is a mulligan.

    And Santana WILL waive his NTC and talk with the Sox. Getting a deal done is another thing. This is his big payday and it’ll be interesting to see if they could come to terms. I say closer to $20M from the Sox and closer to $25M from the Yankees. To me, that’s a deal breaker right there.

  52. g December 4th, 2007 at 10:06 am

    as much as i like hughes and his potential, which is all it is right now, i don’t want to see melky go anywhere actually. i like him out in center and noodle arm damon in left.

  53. haren? December 4th, 2007 at 10:06 am

    you do not trade ipk or hughes for this guy.

    yes, he can give you innings, now

    yes, he can give around 14-15 wins, probably more with our lineup

    so can chien ming wang

    so can the kids in a year

    screw it

  54. ray December 4th, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Okay, I can understand that Yankee fans are really high on Hughes, but to say Hughes had pressure when he was pitching but that Lester had no pressure when starting game 7 of the series against Cleveland is really comical!

  55. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 10:07 am

    RConn, you’re missing a lot of objectivity and a little research.

  56. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 10:07 am

    “my only disagreement with the yankees stance is why they are so reluctant to include either horne or jackson and see if that lands santana. that’s a completely fair package.”

    because they’re competing with a package of a middling young pitcher, a replacement level CFer at $5mm per, one hot prospect with a half-season of AAA and one nobody.

    Why doesn’t the best pitching prospect in baseball (with a post-season win), a cheap replacement level CFer with upside, and some very projectable A-ball pitcher beat that?

  57. Virginia December 4th, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Twins bloggers are less than satisfied with the package. They are similarly enamored with Phil Hughes.

  58. hughesian bias December 4th, 2007 at 10:08 am

    the twins made it clear that they wouldn’t accept a trade that was up to par. plus it would be extremely dumb for the twins to trade santana for next to nothing. the red sox trade is nothing more than the RS dumping their extra players to minny (crisp), giving them a b prospect (lowrie) and swapping a lefty (lester) for a Santana, with an extra no-name prospect thrown in. the trade’s got to hurt boston, at least a little, or else it’s just a bad trade for the twins.

    the twins can’t be that dumb.

  59. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 10:08 am

    Nolan:

    I would.

  60. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:09 am

    Am I the only one pretty convinced that someday we’ll all look back at this “IPK is untouchable” talk and feel dumb? If Oakland wants him to head up a Haren deal, I’m 100% for it. It would be 110%, but that’s not really possible here.

  61. RangerRob December 4th, 2007 at 10:11 am

    Cashman should call Tampa and see if Kazmir is available. He’s younger than Santana and won’t cost nearly as much.

  62. Motown Yankees Fan December 4th, 2007 at 10:11 am

    I wonder if Santana, if he goes to the Sox, will suffer from the curse of the Melky Cabrera potential trade player. See, Mike Gonzalez and Eric Gagne. Doubt it. Fun to think about….

  63. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:11 am

    Hank needs to publicly profess an interest in other pitchers in concert with manufactured leaks that speculate on specific names like Kazmir and Bedard. The Yanks have some leverage here. If they at least engage in negotiations for Kazmir and Bedard, they’ll create some competition for prized prospects like Hughes.

    Does anybody realize that the Twins just devalued Hughes by rejecting a Hughes-based package?

    The rest of baseball would salivate over Hughes and a chance to pare payroll. I wonder if other GM’s are trying to swoop in and ask about Hughes now that the Twins paused.

  64. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:11 am

    “He’s younger than Santana”

    Yes

    “and won’t cost nearly as much.”

    No

  65. Boston Dave December 4th, 2007 at 10:13 am

    Yanks and Twins were still talking well beyond midnight, only breaking off talks so both could get some sleep.

    Rosenthal as recently as this morning was reporting that the negotiations were still open on both sides.

  66. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 10:13 am

    “Johnny C’s got it – they’re pretending to favor the Boston deal to try to pry Kennedy away. We’re right to walk away at this point; if Minn. really liked the Boston deal better, they’d have done it by now.”

    That may be right.

    Lester’s medical condition is hardly a secret. If he’s involved, the delay is not so the Twins can go over his medical records and decide what to do. The Twins can ask any oncologist in Minnesota what the after-effects of Lester’s treatment might be and get a perfectly suitable answer for this stage of the negotiations. If after the deal is done he fails his exam, that’s a different story. But Lester’s medical records are not holding up this deal.

    While this seems like a drawn out, awful process, this is how trades are made. It’s just that they are not usually for an iconic (I hate that word but had to use it) player like Santana and don’t usually involve changing the balance of power in the AL East. And in the age of the blogoshpere, info/rumors are getting out more often, faster and further than ever before. There are too many people staring at this pot waiting for it to boil right now.

  67. RangerRob December 4th, 2007 at 10:14 am

    I think Kazmir could be had for Kennedy and a couple of prospects

  68. pat December 4th, 2007 at 10:14 am

    Sean McAdams from Providence Journal sems to think signing Santana might be an issue for the Red Sox too.

    http://www.projo.com/redsox/co.....58c5b.html

  69. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:14 am

    “I think Kazmir could be had for Kennedy and a couple of prospects”

    T.B. is playing for now, hence the Garza deal. What’s the gain with further stacking a stacked system at the expense of your #1?

  70. Yanksrule57 December 4th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    I love the take in the national media this morning blaming Hank for blowing the Santana deal and talking about what a disaster he is.
    I chalk this up to Yankee bashing.

    All they have done this offseason is:

    Resign the best player in the game.

    Resign all of their own free agents.

    Let the other teams know that they will not be played against other teams.

    I like what they are doing even if they have to go into the season with a starting staff as presently configured. they got a new bullpen arm today from the Nats and with a couple more moves I like this team for 2008 and I like having a flexible payroll in 2009 and beyond.

    I like the job Hank as done so far and appreciate hearing directly from the owner again. What exactly are these people talking about that has been so disastrous. I just don’t understand how a rational person can spout such nonsense.

  71. Boston Dave December 4th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    Clippard Trade (from Chad Jennings Yankee blog):

    My first impression is that I don’t like the trade.

    Clippard was obviously expendable, but it looks to me that the Yankees traded a solid young starter for a guy who might not even be an upgrade over guys like Chris Britton, Jose Veras, Brian Bruney, T.J. Beam, etc. Maybe he is, maybe Albaladejo’s numbers are a sign of things to come, but he’s hardly a sure thing with a career minor league ERA of 3.54 (Britton’s is 2.90, Beam’s is 2.71, Bruney’s is 3.47 and Veras’ is 4.04).

    http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....fault.aspx

  72. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    “The rest of baseball would salivate over Hughes and a chance to pare payroll. I wonder if other GM’s are trying to swoop in and ask about Hughes now that the Twins paused.”

    Answer: Yes. But they will be told he’s not available.

  73. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:15 am

    If you really contemplate the magnitude of the Twins demand of Hughes + Melky + Austin Jackson/Alan Horne, you’d come to the conclusion that Kazmir WILL come cheaper.

  74. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:16 am

    Considering these ridiculous demands and ingratitude for Phil Hughes, Kazmir’s at least worth further investigation.

  75. Boston Dave December 4th, 2007 at 10:17 am

    YanksRule -

    point is… why did Hank need to say everything to the media? He could have given the Twins a deadline and let them leak it but instead he runs his mouth to the media and ends up looking like a jerk. Whether he’s right or wrong, he looks like a jerk and deserves the media portrayal. He either knows what he is doing and expects this media attention or he is an idiot.

  76. J-Dawg December 4th, 2007 at 10:17 am

    If Boston gets Santana, it is a great pickup for them, of course, but it would still be much too premature to be claiming them the division champs for the next five years. Fortunes can change in such a hurry. Injuries can strike at a moment’s notice, hitters can start to figure a pitcher out very quickly, you just never know. And the Yankees aren’t exactly going to be like the Royals or the Pirates. The Yankees have a great mix of youth and experience and DEPTH in the rotation. And a formidable lineup. Lots of things can happen, it’s way too early to be calling Boston the AL East champs for the next five to ten years.

    Plus the Red Sox may not even get Santana, the Yankees can always revisit the talks and come up with a package that fits the Twins’ eye. That’s one of the great things about this sport, fortunes can change in such a hurry.

  77. pat December 4th, 2007 at 10:17 am

    Providence Journal seems to think Red Sox might have an issue getting Santana signed:

    http://www.projo.com/redsox/co.....58c5b.html

  78. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:17 am

    When checking for Albaladejo’s minor league stats, I found this guy: Alberto Bastardo. Rough name.

  79. asburyboss December 4th, 2007 at 10:18 am

    Hughes is off the table for any and all, now…

    IPK, Melky, Horne, and 2 decent prospects for Haren and Street (or Harden)? That I do…of course no way in hell Beane does.

    he is to GM what Boras is to agent. All dealings will be painful.

    At this point we should drop the infatuation with a starting pitcher…and build the pen. Get a LH!!

    We can make a deal at the deadline…

  80. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:18 am

    MurphyDog:

    Then make him “available” just to inflate his value. If you posture that the Twins would be his sole destination than the Twins feel like they’re getting something they’re automatically entitled to getting. Consequentially, they’ve totally abused that privelege.

    I’m not saying TRADE Hughes to the other teams, but float his name and engage in talks for Kazmir and Bedard.

  81. Pete S December 4th, 2007 at 10:18 am

    big joe, how has theo been better than cashman? the only move cashman failed to make that bothered me was for okajima

  82. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am

    Anyone else think that Boston agreeing to a deal for Santana then not being able to get an extension is the absolute best possible result? Proves Minnesota doesn’t want just the picks and puts us in the driver’s seat to pull Hughes and work from there. No?

  83. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am

    I have to say looking at Haren’s splits Left/Right scare me about putting him in Yankee Stadium if we pay dearly for him. Lefties hit 15 dingers off him in that big ol’ place. The short porch will be trouble. Plus look at his monthly ERA and BAA ballooning during the season. September was terrible with a .342 BAA are you kidding me! Maybe they figured him out or maybe his arm was going down. Either way I would worry about a guy that for the last two years had nothing left in September if we want him for October.

  84. rico December 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am

    Boston Dave: Maybe there is more to Albaladejo than we know. According to the Baseball Reference site his middle name is . . . Santana. And we kept Hughes and Melky out of the deal!

  85. jk December 4th, 2007 at 10:20 am

    Warren Buffet told Hank to sit tight on the Santana deal.

  86. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 10:20 am

    Am I the only one pretty convinced that someday we’ll all look back at this “IPK is untouchable” talk and feel dumb?

    Yes, you are.

  87. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 10:21 am

    I think Kazmir could be had for Kennedy and a couple of prospects

    Do you also think that the world is flat?

  88. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:23 am

    Ray: Figured, yet I’m completely sold on that thought. Going into this year he was being viewed as a guy who flew through the minors just to get you league average IPs and now he’s the second coming of Mussina. I worry he’s just polished for his age as opposed to projectable.

  89. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 10:23 am

    “Considering these ridiculous demands and ingratitude for Phil Hughes, Kazmir’s at least worth further investigation.”

    Do you REALLY think they haven’t asked? If the call is “Hey, Kazmir?” “Hell no!” is that REALLY the sort of thing we’d hear about?

    The Rays aren’t trading Kazmir.

    Also, he’s up there with Bedard. These guys are ace lefties that are under control for years. Why would they come cheaper (in terms of prospects) than Santana? Anyone with players can afford to bid on them!

    The Yanks are known to be in on both Haren and Bedard. They’re playing this pretty much just right.

  90. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:24 am

    Pete S – Just my opinion but Theo really hasn’t had the Pavano, Brown, Johnson, Wright type deals. Plus Theo really did help build that winner they have their that is better for October. Cash was handed the backbone of our dynasty team that was drafted and crafted in the early 90s before cash got there.

    Don’t get me wrong..this is like 1 and 1a and I love what Cash has done with our farm system but until he builds a WS winner I have to give the slight nod to Theo. Don’t be too bent out of shape here, I think Cash is in the top 5 in all of baseball, but he has all that money and we haven’t been past 1st round in years.

    To be honest I hope he does it this year and I am wrong. But Hank needs to let him work because he is a talent.

  91. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 10:25 am

    First, Lester does not equal Hughes.

    Second, those of you who think the Red Sox aren’t serious about landing Santana are ignoring the history of bold moves Theo Epstein has made… and the return on his risk-taking (2 world series rings, as much as it pains me to admit).

    Theo has: traded Nomar Garciaparra at a time when he was the most popular player on the team (to fans), had dinner w/ blow-hard Schilling to close the deal, traded the undisputed top prospect and future stud in Hanley Ramirez, and, finally, blew the competition out of the water on the bidding for Dice K (for better or worse, this was a very bold and aggressive move).

    So, if you think the red sox are serious, then you need to get a clue…. also, the sox and twinkies exchanged medical reports on Lester and Santana this morning…

    not looking so good for the Yankees at this point. AL East may be over before it begins… :(

  92. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:25 am

    why does everyone assume the Yankees would be offering the SAME package for Haren? they won’t trade Hughes for Haren.

    there is absolutely no chance of this happening.

  93. Gus G. December 4th, 2007 at 10:25 am

    Lester = 2006 Jaret Wright. Wild and hittable without a strong offense to back him up.

  94. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 10:26 am

    Master Wangkee:

    Just my opinion, but I do not want Kazmir. He throws too many pitches and doesn’t last into the game, plus word is that his shoulder is about ready to come apart. Re Bedard, IMO it’s not smart to send Hughes to a division rival and Baltimore would feel the same about sending Bedard to NY.

  95. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 10:26 am

    the amazing thing about this whole process is that the red sox have hardly altered their initial offers in any way. they have not increased their bid whatsoever, yet now they are the frontrunners?

    some people seem to think that ellsbury was untouchable and then was offered. not true — he has be on the table for a week, just in a package involving getting players back from the twins.

    the red sox haven’t done a thing and may end up with santana. it’s pretty remarkable.

  96. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 10:27 am

    *aren’t serious*

    not are serious

    in my previous post

  97. What about Bob? December 4th, 2007 at 10:28 am

    PB- Nomar wasn’t popular anymore at the time of the trade. He was booed for, among other thing, being the only red sox player not standing on the rail during a failed RS rally.

  98. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:28 am

    PB in DC

    Yeah thats my take on Theo too…he’s pretty shrewd and very bold…but he has had some issues like not really getting the SS they want. But his missteps have been alot cheaper than some of the yanks…see mondesi, et al.

  99. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:29 am

    There’s a difference between hanging up the phone when a GM offers Reggie Sanders for Phil Hughes vs. when you inquire about a player like Kazmir and have significant pitching depth to suit the Rays needs.

    Just because Kazmir’s unavailable doesn’t mean their FO is unreasonable. I don’t think the Rays would mind at least testing the market and seeing which prospect’s names pop up.

  100. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 10:29 am

    “Ray: Figured, yet I’m completely sold on that thought”

    Ian isn’t untouchable…he’s untouchable in a deal that already includes Hughes and our starting CFer.

    I’d be happy to send the Twins Kennedy, Melky, Horne and another B-level guy, if they want quantity. Horne > Masterson, Melky + 5 mil > Crisp, Kennedy == Lester. Add a fourth who makes the overall calculation compare with the presence of Lowrie.

  101. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:30 am

    1. Renteria for Crisp
    2. Lugo to a $9MM per season deal
    3. $100MM for a league average starter
    4. Traded Hanley Ramirez, arguably the top hitter in the NL last season (this one is somehow spun as an overwhelming victory for the Sox)
    5. Traded a valuable reliever for nothing (Riske)
    6. Traded a valuable reliever to get a backup catcher back because Wake was facing the Yanks (Meredith)
    7. Let Alex Gonzalez (.299 OBP) and Alex Cora (.312) play a full season at SS
    8. Traded a solid starter in Arroyo for a net gain of a minor league DH

    Yes, he’s made plenty of nice moves and I love his style of thinking most of the time, but he’s screwed up plenty as well.

  102. migames December 4th, 2007 at 10:30 am

    Nomar’s kiss of death was the redsox/yankee series where jeter jumped into the stands. Peter Gammons ripped Nomar because he played maybe one game in that series while jeter jumped into the stands….A month later he was traded.

  103. Vince December 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am

    It all comes down to the question of whether Boston can see Santana with pen in hand signing on the dotted line a long term deal and trying to justify the deal to arguably the only real pitcher they had in a championship season and finishing ahead of Santana in the Cy Young voting of this year. Beckett’s contract would have to be re-worked or it’s chancy having an unhappy pitcher.
    Santana wlll want assurance that Manny’s 2009 option will be picked up to protect Ortiz in an otherwise not so productive lineup. Every pitcher wants run support.
    This deal is not so cut and dried as it might appear.

  104. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am

    murphydog – I live in Tampa and follow Kaz because I want him in Yankee Stadium with us.

    Kaz’s arm is not falling off…look at his 2nd half..the guy grew stronger and kept yelling at Maddon to let him pitch deeper to get more wins. He is a leader and hard worker. But they are building the Rays not tearing it apart so he’s not going anywhere for a while.

  105. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:32 am

    Murphydog:

    You state Kazmir’s shoulder’s ‘about to come apart’ yet another poster here just now claimed ‘The Rays aren’t trading Kazmir’.

    Is he worthless or untouchable or…just like every other player in baseball…somewhere in between?

  106. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 10:33 am

    “when you inquire about a player like Kazmir and have significant pitching depth to suit the Rays needs.”

    But if you actually look at the Rays right now, they have a bunch of promising AA/AAA pitching. With the addition of Garza, they have a promising MLB-ready front three, and several guys jockeying for the 4/5 slots, AND a couple guys just behind them.

    Frankly, the Yanks just aren’t a great fit. And Kazmir is the “veteran” anchor of their rotation. I really doubt he’s available at all and, if he is, the Yankees aren’t a good fit there.

  107. Pete S December 4th, 2007 at 10:35 am

    yeah dont worry im not angry at all i just feel that a lot of the moves that have handicapped the yankees have been unlucky (ie pavano choosing the yanks over the sox then getting hurt) and were not necessarily always in cashmans control. dont get me wrong, theo has done a great job and his players have performed when it counts, i just hope the young steins give cashman a chance to operate

    and i am not too thrilled about haren, he is good, but not for the kind of package beane would likely want

  108. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Gus G., while lester is not as good as hughes, i think it is eaqually wrong to say Lester = 2006 Jaret Wright.

    If the Yankees had Papelbon, Lester & Bucholz, here is how I would rank the young pitchers on the basis of Joba & Papelbon being #1 and set as ’100′. SO I AM NOT GIVING GRADES HERE, just using Joba as the benchmark to compare the other prospects

    Jonathan Papelbon 100
    Joba Chamberlain 100
    Phil Hughes 94
    Clay Bucholz 93
    Jon Lester 88
    Ian Kennedy 82

    plz don’t read too much into this, it reflects only my valuation of the pitchers as prospects… ie not their long-term potential or ceiling or whatever

  109. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Mister Delaware – I think most of that played out ok right? I mean they won the WS series last I checked. Nothing on there is up there with Mondesi, Randy, Jaret, Pavano, Brown because we haven’t won since the short term trading fix trend started up again. Not all Cash’s fault granted but these are only the ones that come to mind. He also made great deals Abreu for instance comes to mind but the clincher is they have 2 WS to our zero in the last 5 years. I hate writing that but its the fact.

  110. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Whozat,

    The Rays have a 3 year window with Kazmir…and arby eligible after 2008…just something to keep in mind.

  111. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:37 am

    “Am I the only one pretty convinced that someday we’ll all look back at this “IPK is untouchable” talk and feel dumb? If Oakland wants him to head up a Haren deal, I’m 100% for it”

    IPK is not untouchable. the Yankees know this.

    Hughes is untouchable in a Haren trade, but not IPK.

  112. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am

    What about Bob, you’re wrong about Nomar. I lived in Boston at the time. He was still the most popular player on the team… ortiz was taking that unofficial title during that season, but in terms of the “pink hat” fans etc, it was still nomar.

    Semantics, though in my opinion. No matter who was most popular, it was still a bold move.

  113. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am

    Tampa is not trading Kazmir. Especially, not to the Yankees.

    Again, think like a GM and not a fan.

    You are going to trade your ace to the Yankees, a team you share a city with among the fanbase?

    Its not going to happen.

    The Rays asked for Phil Hughes from the Yankees last year when they inquired about Ty Wiggington.

    Forget Kazmir and forget Bedard. Tampa and Baltimore are not trading their aces to the Yankees.

  114. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:40 am

    Oh yeah…crappy deal by Theo…full disclosure says I need to include Gagne….wow, what a bomb

  115. big Joe December 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am

    and they still won the Series. UGH!

  116. deals R us December 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am

    (sniff – sniff)… the pickup of Jonathan Albaladejo greases the skids for Farnsworth’s exit hence the praise from Brian “The Fox” Cashman in yesterday’s comments.
    Let’s start with Damaso Marte for Farnsworth with Brian making up the difference in salary and also including DeSalvo and Henn. C’mon Pittsburgh – - bite !

  117. Master Wangkee December 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    SJ,

    I just don’t believe that any GM puts rivalry over talent considerations. Acquiring talent and filling needs is the first priority of GMs. Worrying about rivalries is something for fans, unless you’re Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein.

  118. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    Mister Delaware, I am NOT saying either way that Theo has done a good job or a bad job.

    I’m only saying he is capable of bold moves.

    Also, I don’t know why trading Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett (ALCS MVP, 2nd in Cy Young voting) and Mike Lowell (World Series MVP) would need to be “somehow spun as an overwhelming victory for the Sox” as you put it.

    C’mon, I don’t like it either, but lets try to feign some level of objectivity: Trading Hanley Ramirez was paramount to the Sox winning the WS in 2007.

    No two ways about it. No spin necessary.

  119. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    “Clippard was obviously expendable, but it looks to me that the Yankees traded a solid young starter ”

    does anyone think Clippard is a “solid, young starter” in the AL?

    he *might* be. and he’ll probably do OK in DC, but i don’t have any angst over this deal.

  120. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am

    Ablaladejo has nothing to do with Farnsworth.

    One transaction has nothing to do with another.

    Its just the Yankees stockpiling arms for a guy who was not longer in their plans.

  121. Buddy Biancalana December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    SJ44-

    It’s not worth your time to keep going over the whole Bedard & Kazmir a million more times. Lots of people get it, but most don’t understand your point which I totally agree with.

  122. MarkK December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    Mister Delaware…

    I am not a major league scout, but I am much more impressed with IPK than I am with Hughes. Remember, Hughes hurt himself while pitching then hurt himself again while healing. That sets off flashing red lights, and it would in everyone if we hadn’t been fed a constant stream of hype over the years that Hughes was the future, the franchise, proof that our farm system was wonderful.

    (That being said, I wouldn’t part with either for Haren. I’d let go of Hughes for Bedard, though.)

  123. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    It happens all over baseball Master Wangkee.

    Its why the Giants and Dodgers don’t do deals together. Nor do the Angels-Dodgers, Yankees-Mets and Yankees-Red Sox. That’s just a few examples.

    You think the Indians-Tigers are going to do deal together these days?

    The Rays HATE the Yankees. They hate the fact Tampa is a Yankees town, hate the Steinbrenners (moreso from the Naimoli Era although, some animosity still takes place), and just aren’t going to send their ace to NY.

    Look at it from Tampa’s perspective. If they did a deal with the Yankees, they get to see Kazmir 4-5 times a year.

    There is no way they will take that risk. Its just not how baseball business is done.

    Its a deal that has a 0% chance of ever happening.

  124. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    The Yanks got Albaladejo so Jeter would be reminded of what he had.

    Look at the first 5 letters of his name.

  125. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    “Pete S – Just my opinion but Theo really hasn’t had the Pavano, Brown, Johnson, Wright type deals”

    sure he has.

    Pavano = Matt Clement. exact same thing.

    Gagne was a disaster.

    JD Drew and Julio Lugo have been disasters.

    trading Renteria away was dumb. Crisp has sucked.

    trading Arroyo for WMP was a bad trade.

    signing Piniero sucked.

    the Sox are good, but the difference in the Sox and the Yanks over the last few years is that because of Steinbrenner’s interference in the David Wells deal of 2002, the D-Backs accepted MUCH less from the Sox than they asked from the Yankees.

    there it is, the whole difference.

    has nothing to do with Cashman, Theo, Hank, etc. it has to do with Steinbrenner acting like an A-HOLE with Wells. when you burn bridges, sometimes it bites you on the @ss.

  126. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    Not signing Orlando Cabrera was a major mistke and Boston’s still paying the cost of it.

  127. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    “the red sox haven’t done a thing and may end up with santana. it’s pretty remarkable.”

    it’s all about leverage.

    coming off a WS win, the Sox have a TON of leverage. they can do the deal or not do the deal and hey, they’re still the champs.

    they don’t HAVE to offer both ellsbury and lester b/c if they walk away, they still have a good team.

    leverage.

  128. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am

    “Remember, Hughes hurt himself while pitching then hurt himself again while healing.”

    oh come on, he rolled his ankle doing some agility drills during rehab. it was an accident.

    it’s not like something on his body broke down. it was a fluke.

  129. erikp December 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am

    hmmmm…

    I agree re: Clippard. He looked intermittantly shaky and decent this year, and my guess is that the best the Yanks could expect from him down the road is a servicable back of the rotation guy or a long reliever (or, exactly what he ended up as… a tradeable asset). I also have no problem losing Tyler.

  130. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am

    “the Sox are good, but the difference in the Sox and the Yanks over the last few years is that because of Steinbrenner’s interference in the David Wells deal of 2002, the D-Backs accepted MUCH less from the Sox than they asked from the Yankees. ”

    i meant to say this is in reference to the Schilling trade.

  131. Buddy Biancalana December 4th, 2007 at 10:58 am

    Master-

    Last year the Astros were going to trade Oswalt along with Ensberg & one other to the Orioles for Tejada, when Drayton McLane found out that the O’s were going to move Oswalt to the Rangers for Blalock & others, he backed out of it. Those teams are in different leagues & would let the deal happen.

  132. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    “Look at the first 5 letters of his name.”

    Albal? ;)

  133. erikp December 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Also, Clippard has that wacky delivery where he varies the spot where he lands with his right foot after he throws. Now I’m no pitching coach, but typically picthers work for years to make their delivery consistent, partly because it disguises the various pitches thrown, but also to reduce injury. With an odd motion like Clippard I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a chronic injury problem.

  134. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 11:05 am

    Can someone tell me whats up with Hank and his propensity for giving deadlines??

    If he backs off of this one, like he did with A-rod, then what? It weakens his position in all aspects of managing this organization. IMO

  135. TwinsfaninNY December 4th, 2007 at 11:11 am

    I’m not sure that the deal that we’re hearing (Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson) makes sense (especially Crisp’s contract):

    with that said, in terms of player talent:

    Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson beats Hughes, Cabrera, castoff.

    Lester and Hughes are both pitchers with major upsides and medical issues. Hughes’ upside is higher, yes. but as many Yankees fans seem to be ignorant off….most pitchers never live up to their potential. so Hughes beats Lester, yes…but it’s by no means a sure thing.

    Crisp and Cabrera are a wash in terms of performance. (Crisp’s contract is a separate issue.)

    Lowrie is a highly ranked talent. equivalent to Tabata or Jackson. (check the guides)

    Masterson projects as a potential top setup man. maybe even a closer. (if Santana is traded than Nathan is probably traded…moving Neshek to closer)

    that package beats the Yankees package cause of the prospects at the end.

  136. black_tiger December 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am

    “Pete S – Just my opinion but Theo really hasn’t had the Pavano, Brown, Johnson, Wright type deals. ”

    Matt Clement? J.D. Drew? Julio Lugo? Edgar Renteria? Coco Crisp? Eric Gagne? Letting Orlando Cabrera leave? Please…

  137. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 11:21 am

    why do you keep posting the same thing over and over?

  138. Grant December 4th, 2007 at 11:29 am

    Idon’t let go of our top tier prospects for anything less than Santana. I would rather take my chances with the young guns than Haren. Those A’s Aces haven’t faired so well outside the bay area.

  139. Rob Jones December 4th, 2007 at 11:33 am

    I love all this talk about Hughes being such a bigger prospect with all this upside as opposed to Lester. Note to self, Homer Bailey! Ive never seen a more touted prospect look any worse.

  140. Norm December 4th, 2007 at 11:34 am

    I Think the Red Sox get the deal done, and are wold series champions Again.

    Theo should be GM of the year!

  141. JJ December 4th, 2007 at 11:56 am

    I’m with several of the other gentleman here. Why is it that the Yanks need to up the ante while Smith just rolls over for the Red Sux? Is it because of Hank’s arrogance? Is it just a smoke screen to get the Yanks to cough up Kennedy? I can’t believe that the Twins would prefer Lester over Hughes….OR prefer Crisp and his contract over Melky and his. Doesn’t make sense. I would however cough up Austin Jackson if that is what it takes to get this done. Santana on the Sux along with Beckett, Dice-K, Shill and Buckholcz is too insane to fathom.

    I would NOT trade Hughes to the A’s for Haren. Look at his numbers in Fenway the last three years…he’s 0-3! Look at his era after the all-star break the last three years…it’s almost one run higher. Not the big game stud we’re looking for. I’d be more apt to try Kennedy, Melky and a lower level prospect for Bedard. Boston has a tough time with lefty’s and a rotation of Bedard, Pettite, Wang, Joba and Hughes could compete with Boston even if they had Santana.

  142. jason December 4th, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    1. Santana agent has told local newspapers that santana WILL NOT veto any trades, he wants Bill smith find the best deal.

    2. I am having a hard time believing his new report of the lester, crisp, lowrie, masterson. Why would the twins reject a better offer from yankees and then settle for this one. Hughes is the single best player that his been offered in any of the trade scenarios for santana. It makes no sense that the twins would instantly cave to the Red Sox given that the red sox have set no deadline and this inferior deal should be available months from now (i dont think the twins would cave to the yankees either, but at least that would be more believable given the yanks set a deadline).

    3. The A’s and Orioles will demand the same or more for Haren or Bedard respectively.

    4. I understand prospects often do not pan out. Its possible that lester could turn out to be a better pitcher than hughes. But based on performance and scouting info right now Hughes is the better prospect.

  143. cevans December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    The Yankees will get Santana… comparing the deals the yankees and the red sox have put out is just ridiculous… I don’t know what the Twins are looking at… Coco Crisp is a good fielder and a offensive liability… while Jon lester is a great story but he lacks command and will only b a number 4 or 5 starter… while Melky led the league in assists and has a decent bat… while Phil Hughes needs no explaining, does anyone recall his first start where he had a no hitter going into the 6th until he got injured… But all in all i think the Twins will come to their senses and make it happen… the Yankees should go with Santana bc the A’s want Ian Kennedy andd Phil Hughes and two other prospects for Dan Haren…Who do the A’s think they are? Haren doesn’t stay healthy enough and he can not pitch for a big franchise

  144. Jon from UCONN December 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    If the Yanks trade Hughes they’re out of their minds…especially for Dan Haren. If they give up 10 plus years of what seems to be an above average to stellar pitching prospect (who has flashed already in mlb) for Johan who I think has 4-5 years of real production left in him (based on Pedro Martinez’s career as they are similar pitchers…Johan throws harder so it could mean fewer years of dominance then Pedro due to his frame simply not being able to support his velocity…also note that when Johan’s velocity goes, he will be like an aging Moose- a change of pace pitcher who isn’t as effective because with a slower fastball hitters will be able to react quicker to the changeup…I would not be willing to give up Hughes for Johan when it seems Johan’s best years are probably behind him…not to mention trade away Melky Cabrera, a steady SH OF who brings youth and energy to an aging lineup). The Yanks need to stop trading their prospects for players who have had their best years behind them- it just doesn’t make sense, especially when their prospects have shown that they can pitch and handle themselves well in the big leagues.

  145. Drozilla December 4th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    im no more than an outside observer here but Melky cabrera was NOT the OF assist leader last year you guys keep bringing it up. Michael Cuddyer had 19 to melkys 16 and the kid the twins just picked up Delmon young had 16 himself. i agree that melky is decent but dont pull stats outta nowhere he has a good arm yes.. but he is not the assist leader please quit using that as his claim to fame from the past season..

  146. Merlin67 October 22nd, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    I can’t really explain it more than that. ,

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