Q & A with Joe Girardi
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 04, 2007 
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Joe Girardi had a sitdown with two dozen or so reporters at the Winter Meetings. Here is the transcipt that was supplied by Major League Baseball. It’s a lot of words, but have at it:
Q: What does it mean to you to have Andy Pettitte back, personally, before team-wise?
JOE GIRARDI: Obviously there’s some details that have to be worked out. Personally it means a lot because I know what Andy is all about. I had a chance to play with Andy and it was a wonderful experience, and what Andy brings to the table on the field, off the field in the clubhouse, just the type of man he is. He’s important to our club.
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Q. As far as the club is concerned, do you get caught up, ever, in what the team is going to do transaction-wise? Do you leave that alone or do you think about that kind of stuff when you’re alone trying to figure out what you’re going to do?
JOE GIRARDI: Obviously we have discussions as an organization about players. But on an every day basis, no. You worry more about the players that are in the room, in the clubhouse that you have under your control, because that’s really all that you could control at that time and how you use those players. So I don’t get too caught up on what might be.
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Q. You have your team set for the most part, maybe there’s a big piece coming, maybe not, but does it help you prepare in the winter when you pretty much know what you have and there’s no question marks?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think it’s obviously easier when you have a club that you’re more familiar with than not familiar with. I went through that experience where we had a lot of young players in Florida, and you had to learn what they could do and what they can’t do in a lot of situations in six weeks in Spring Training, four weeks of games, and that’s kind of tough. So obviously when you’re familiar with your players and you have an idea of what your lineup is going to be and what your rotation is going to be, it is a little bit easier. There are in guarantees in this game, you have to perform.
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Q. In the conversations that you had with Andy, did you feel like you had to convince him?
JOE GIRARDI: No, not really. You know, I talked to him shortly after the season and I talked to him a couple days ago and I told him, you know, I would be calling back around December 1. Because I know personally as a player that, you know, when the season is over, you don’t really want to make up your mind right away. You know, you’re mentally fatigued, you’re physically fatigued, you want to get home and spend some time with your family and think about your situation. That’s why I told him I would call him in a couple of weeks. You know, Andy is a true professional, and I just can’t tell you how happy I am to have him back.
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Q. Did he give you any idea what made up his mind for him?
JOE GIRARDI: Not necessarily. He just said, “I’m ready to come back and I want to come back.” I think what brought Andy back is he loves what he does, and the competitive juice us probably start flowing again. He had a chance to recharge his batteries a little bit and he’s ready to go.
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Q. What’s your opinion of Phil Hughes?
JOE GIRARDI: My opinion of Phil Hughes? I think it’s unfair to have a strong opinion one way or another about a young man that, you know, has had some starts in the big leagues, but not a ton of starts. But obviously there’s a lot of talent there. He’s a work-in-progress, like all players. Obviously the big thing is to keep him healthy and get him out there, you know, every fifth day.
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Q. What’s it like for you right now not knowing what parts might be leaving the team, what parts might be coming in?
JOE GIRARDI: I don’t really worry about that. You know, you look at what you’ve got now, and you know, you go up into the room that we’re in and see a board and you know who you have and you know who you don’t have and you focus on what you have.
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Q. What about in Florida, you dealt with a very inexperienced young pitching staff; can you talk specifically about what the differences will be going to New York? And you know the pitchers and have played with them and have a lot more experience, just talking about the pitching; is that easier?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, we’re going to have some guys on the staff that are somewhat inexperienced as well. This is not going to be a five-man rotation that consists of, you know, guys that have, you know, five, six, seven, eight years of development. We’re going to have many young kids starting some games. Obviously you know what you have in Chien-Ming Wang, and you know what you have in Andy Pettitte, Mike Mussina on a daily basis. But there are would more spots that have to be filled there and some young guys that need to fill in the bullpen. I think the experience with the young guys and protecting the young guys was probably valuable for me.
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Q. Going in, you mentioned the three veterans you have, do you look at Mussina as one of your starters, or is there a chance he could end up on the outside looking in, since you have six guys right now?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, you have six guys. I think everyone if you were to say that you were going to design your rotation today, Mike Mussina would definitely be in the mix. You would think that he would be one of those starters, and obviously as I said before, you have to perform. You know, a lot of people had some question marks on Mike Mussina he had some pretty good months last year. He had a bad month. And it seems when you get older and you have a bad month, people automatically think that you are done. If you’re young and you have a bad month, you need more seasoning. And if you’re in the middle of the career, you just say you’re having a bad month. I don’t think Mike Mussina has forgotten how to pitch, and I still think that he can be successful.
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Q. Mussina aside, if you had two or three, you know pretty inexperienced pitchers in your rotation, how does that — how do you stack up against Boston and the rest of the American League if you have to go in with that much inexperience?
JOE GIRARDI: Time will tell. I mean, these kids are talented. There’s no doubt that they are not talented young pitchers. But they are being asked to perform at a high level, like all of the other players in that room were asked to perform at a high level at some time; whether it was Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera or Andy Pettitte or Alex Rodriguez or Robinson Cano, and they are going to get a chance to take that next step.
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Q. Have you had a chance to talk to Alex?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes.
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Q. How has that gone?
JOE GIRARDI: It went great. Obviously he’s very happy and there are some details that still have to be worked out there as well but he’s excited.
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Q. Knowing that you are going to have Andy Pettitte back, how does that change your need for another impact veteran guy, veteran pitcher in your rotation?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think it gives you a guy that you can pencil in for 32 starts, and you know that he can handle the workload. He’s used to the workload from a physical standpoint, as well as a mental standpoint, and that’s good to know. When you have a lot of young pitchers, you have to be a lot more careful about their workload and how many starts and how many innings they throw.
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Q. Obviously there’s one guy out there, we all know you’re going after him, I know you don’t want to get into the specifics of that, because you have Andy, does that lessen your need to go get a big guy?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, obviously, Andy is important to the rotation, and I think everyone saw how important he was last year, what he did against Cleveland in a big game last year, so we needed Andy. We needed Andy’s presence.
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Q. At your initial press conference, you said you understand that playing at a championship level is what is expected. Do you think as the rotation is comprised right now that you can get there?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, I do. It is our job to get there as a club, as an organization. And yeah, the pitchers are young. Phil Hughes got valuable experience last year. Joba Chamberlain got valuable experience. Ian Kennedy, even though his experience was a little bit shorter, was very valuable. They learned how to compete at this level. Now you have to be able to do it over a six-month period, you know, the 162 games, and then you see where you’re at.
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Q. Do you think that’s problematic because you’re not doing it with one guy, and maybe not even two guys, but that you might be asking three guys to all take that leap for six months, maybe a seventh month, championship level, that it might just be too much?
JOE GIRARDI: You know, you can compare a little bit to 1996. Obviously the pieces were spread out a little bit, but you had a rookie shortstop, you basically had a rookie pitcher in Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera and think about the roles they played that year for the New York Yankees in winning the championship. I’d like to parallel it to that. Yeah, two of them might be starters, one might be in the bullpen or three of them might be starters or one of them might be a starter. I mean, they are expected to step up, and I think they are ready to make that step.
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Q. In building the bridge to Mariano, which always seems to be so important each and every year, and last year you took Chamberlain and made him a reliever. Is there a possibility not of the three guys that we talked about, but maybe a Jeff Marquez or somebody like that in the system could be used as a starter, and maybe finding a guy like that in the system, is there a possibility of that happening?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, obviously I think we are going to look at guys in the system. I think that is a possibility. You know, there’s going to be some young players, young pitchers, especially, to get a chance to perform, whether it’s in the rotation or the bullpen. And you’re going to look at guys like Jeffrey Marquez and Ross Ohlendorf, and there’s more guys coming. And we are expecting them as an organization to step up.
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Q. How do you handle, with all of the outfield ares that you have now and first base and DH, how do you see that shaking out? Well, I don’t think you can say exactly how it’s going to shake out because people have to perform. People also have to be healthy.
JOE GIRARDI: I was on clubs here in the late 90s; there were more people than positions to fill, and we made it work and we won championships. And we will try to do the same now. I mean, you never know — I don’t think you can ever have too many people.
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Q. You’re clearly very familiar with the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry. What’s it like to watch now as there’s other off-season competition going on?
JOE GIRARDI: You know what I think it’s what makes baseball great. Sometimes it’s nice to pull back and just be a fan and say, you know what, this is what makes our game so great. It never really stops. It never takes a break. If you’re thinking about off-seasons of other sports, you don’t hear as much. And, you know, it’s interesting. I’m sure there’s other clubs involved that maybe none of us have heard about yet, but I think it’s great.
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Q. How do you think that rivalry has changed since you were playing?
JOE GIRARDI: I think it’s intensified a little bit more because they have met in the playoffs a few more times, and I think that’s brought a higher intensity level to it.
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Q. As a Yankee manager, do you worry that they might dramatically improve their team?
JOE GIRARDI: I worry about our club. I can’t worry about what other clubs are doing or I won’t sleep at all because there’s 29 other clubs you’ve got to worry about. No. I mean, you’ve got to worry about who is in your clubhouse and how you’re going to get the best out of those guys as an organization and that’s what I worry about.
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Q. Whether you worry or not how much better does it make Boston if they add another All-Star caliber pitcher to their rotation already?
JOE GIRARDI: You never know. You never know how things are going to play out. So, you know, we’ll find out in, what, about eight months.
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Q. Do you feel like you have a tough act to follow with Joe Torre’s 12 championship years in a row?
JOE GIRARDI: No, I don’t. You know, I have to be myself and that’s all I can be is myself.
Obviously there has been lofty expectations on this club long before Joe Torre was here. He had to come in to fill someone’s shoes, and Buck Showalter before that and it just goes on and on. The expectations have always been here, and that’s one of the things that makes this job so great.
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Q. Do you feel you’re a different manager now with the Yankees than you were with the Marlins?
JOE GIRARDI: I think I’ve grown a lot as a person. I think you learn a lot through your experiences in life, whether it’s on the field or off the field or no matter what you’re doing. So I’m definitely a different person.
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Q. When you were hired, you didn’t have a third baseman, a closer, a catcher and one of your starting pitchers —
JOE GIRARDI: (Laughter) A lot’s happened in a month.
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Q. Do you think you with go four or four with those guys and get everybody back or are you surprised at how it worked out?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I’m a little bit surprised because the club had talked about, you know, if Alex opted out, they probably wouldn’t bring him back. But I’m not surprised the club stepped up. I think that’s what the Yankees have always done, they have always stepped up and tried to give the organization, the fans, the players in the room, the coaches, the managers, the best players they can give them.
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Q. To what degree were you maybe behind the scenes calling those guys when they were still free agents and encouraging them to stay?
JOE GIRARDI: I talked to the guys obviously, because I know how important they are. And I know how important Jorge Posada has been to the Yankees for the last 12 years, and Mariano Rivera and Andy Pettitte, and Alex, the year that he had. Obviously you know, you make a wish list and you put all the guys on it, not knowing that you’re going to get them all, but it’s nice when it happens.
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Q. Pitching staff the way you have it currently constituted, do you think it’s the kind of staff that can win a championship?
JOE GIRARDI: Those are my expectations. Obviously it’s, you know, when you put up a board, you don’t have it down to an exact science who the 12 names are going to be. There’s going to be some competition in Spring Training which I think is a great thing because I think competition brings out the best in people.
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Q. Seems like everything is focused on that one huge rumor out there. Is there something else that you’re confident or how would you characterize something else getting done with your organization.
JOE GIRARDI: I think the way the club is constructed today, there’s a good chance it’s not going to be construct that had way February 14th when we report. I’m confident they will do everything in their power to put the best team in that clubhouse.
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Q. I missed out on your answer earlier; did you have to convince Andy to come back, was that a difficult sell?
JOE GIRARDI: No, playing for the Yankees is not a difficult sell. It’s a wonderful place to play, and I can tell you that through my experiences. I think Andy just needed to step back and take some time to evaluate and recharge, and you know, he wants to try it again.
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Q. Your relationship with Kyle Farnsworth, how important is that in trying to, you know, get the most out of him this last year considering the problems he’s had the first two years?
JOE GIRARDI: I think it’s important, and obviously it’s my hope that it works out for the best. I mean, I had a chance to catch Kyle when he was in Chicago when he was dominant. I’ve always had a lot of confidence in what he can do. And I’ve seen Kyle at his best, so I look forward to him getting back to that.
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Q. What can you do, taking advantage of that relationship, what can you do to get him back there?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I think you know — I know Kyle’s personality. I kind of know what makes Kyle tick from a standpoint because obviously we are 61 feet apart a lot of days.
I’ll use the things that I know about Kyle to instill confidence and motivate him.
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Q. You mentioned that the team will be different come February 14th. Where do you think you need the most improvement in that?
JOE GIRARDI: I didn’t say it would be different. I said there’s a chance it would be different.
I think obviously the Yankees are the type of club, like any other club, whenever you can make an upgrade, if it fits, you’ll try to make that upgrade. And it’s possible nothing may be done over the next three months. But it’s also very possible that something could be done.
So that’s why I don’t focus too much on, you know, what might be. We’ll find out February 14th.
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Q. How has the communication been with Brian —
JOE GIRARDI: Great.
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Q. — in the last 24 hours about these trade rumors?
JOE GIRARDI: It’s been great since day one. I’m on the phone a couple times a day with him. It’s been very good.
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Q. There was so much made last year about Joba and the limitations with three rookie starters in the infancy of their careers, have you guys talked about limits in terms of innings?
JOE GIRARDI: We’ve talked about the amount of innings, I’m not doing to share what they are but we’ve talked about the amount of innings that these guys — that we feel they can pitch, and it’s in their natural progression of growing as a pitcher. That’s something we’ll have to address during the season.
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Q. With that said, is it almost like having six pitch pitchers, is that a way —
JOE GIRARDI: It’s a great thing. Yes, it’s a great thing.
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Q. Do you know something about Duncan’s problem with his arm?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, obviously he’s had some circulatory issues, and he is doing better. And you know, he’ll be evaluated every couple weeks, every month, and we’ll see where he’s at February 15th.
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Q. What’s your impression of the business side of baseball being here at the Winter Meetings and the long hours of talking about Santana and being involved in that?
JOE GIRARDI: Well, I’m glad I’m not — I’m glad I don’t have a pad and a piece of paper. Long days for everyone here. But to me it’s what makes baseball special. I like it. I mean, I can never it get enough baseball. I don’t know, maybe some people can, but I can never it get enough of it, so I like it.
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Q. Is there a philosophical difference, within the club, can you see the debate of picking up Santana at the expense of rebuilding the foundation?
JOE GIRARDI: I’m not really going to get into that. Obviously there’s been a lot written about, you know, possibly Santana being traded to certain clubs, but I’m not really going to get into that. Obviously we feel very strong about our young players here, and the organization, Brian, have worked hard the last couple years trying to rebuild the system. We’re starting to see some of the fruits of that system. Let’s just hope that it’s a continual flow.
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Q. Are you guys still involved in the Santana talks?
JOE GIRARDI: You know, that’s something that Brian has done most of the talking about, and obviously that’s not something for me to share.
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Q. I don’t want to put words in your mouth but what you said a minute ago, are you intimating you could go with a six-man rotation at times during the year, use off-days to give guys extra rest?
JOE GIRARDI: I’m not insinuating we’ll do a six-man rotation, but what I am saying is we’ll watch innings very careful. If people start getting to certain levels, adjustments will have to be made.
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Q. Is it tough when you’re in a position where you’re looking at contending for a championship where you have to think to yourself, I can only use this pitcher five innings tonight or six innings tonight and not just let the game go as it is?
JOE GIRARDI: Every team has issues that they have to worry about. That’s just the nature of the business. If you didn’t have issues, it wouldn’t be a competition, so that’s what makes our job interesting and fun.
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Q. There are certain players who you already knew very well having played with or coached. Have you gotten a chance to visit with some of the other players or talk to them?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes, I have. I’ve talked to the other players. I will continue making calls and trying to see as many of them as I can before Spring Training.
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Q. You said earlier that you were glad you had the experience of working with young pitchers with the Marlins. What can you take from that to help the young Yankees young pitchers, what he is the biggest thing you learned working with young pitchers?
JOE GIRARDI: You have to be patient, making sure that they have a plan of how to be successful is very important, instilling confidence in them and physically protecting them.
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Q. You’ve watched Santana pitch for many years, where would you put him, top three pitchers, top five pitchers?
JOE GIRARDI: I don’t know if you can characterize exactly where he would be. But obviously he’s one of the premiere pitchers in the game.
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Q. How much do you value defense at first base and left field, and how would that play into your mixing and matching?
JOE GIRARDI: I always value defense. I think defense is very important. Because you can save a lot of runs, as well as drive in a lot of runs. So we will look at those things as Spring Training goes on — excuse me, as the season goes on, but it’s very important to me.
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Q. Have you had a chance to talk to Giambi at all?
JOE GIRARDI: We have kind of played phone tag.
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Q. Do you feel any emotions about being manager in the last year at Yankee Stadium?
JOE GIRARDI: Yes. Special, very, very special. I’ve been fortunate to be a lot of places in my career and obviously this is one of them. I’ve had a chance to play for the Yankees, win championships. But it will be a special moment.
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Q. What’s been the best part about being the manager of the Yankees so far?
JOE GIRARDI: The best part of being a Yankee manager? I just think the anticipation of walking through that clubhouse door down the tunnel on to the field. I remember what it was like as a player, and I think it’s going to be equally as magnificent as a manager.
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Q. No courtside seats, good tables?
JOE GIRARDI: You know what, I got Hannah Montana tickets for my daughter, which made big points, big points.
You are a machine Pete. Keep it up!
I feel like we are in good hands with Joe G.
Damn that was long, but thanks for the post
uh, how many times did he say Obviously?
Ok well, that was pointless.
Happy to have him though
Obviously quite a few.
Was this cut and pasted from Kat O’Brien’s blog?
Could Joe have said obviously a little more?
Also any news on Detroit landing Dtrain and Miguel?
Pete, that might have been the longest post I’ve seen from you.
Worth it, though.
Geesh Pete-
That Powerbook must be tired.
He said Obviously 25 times. LOL
Hannah Montana tickets? If he can do that, coming up with a world’s championship should be a snap.
That was a lot, yet nothing.
Night all
Now I lay me down to sleep
Pray the Twins stop acting like sheep
If they agree before I wake
Pray the Sox Offer, Johan does not take
lame, i know… goodnight everyone
My bad. Just saw that Pete said it came from MLB. Thought a sports reporter had actually typed it up. But that’s too much heavy lifting for those guys…
Joe G. is smooth. Totally didn’t answer one of the questions. I read it so long ago, I don’t even remember which one it was. Thanks, Pete.
He said obvious about as much as Torre says “No question”.
What was Joe T’s favorite phrase. “Well, yeah?” “Well, you know”
a simple link would have worked pete
Joe G does say all the right things though. He’s been quite good with the media and answering or providing a response to the multitude of questions.
JT,
Maybe it was e-mailed to him?
Don’t you think it is easier and more convenient to have the interview and comments all on one page? Plus external links don’t exactly help traffic.
Extension for Peavy….3 yr/52 mill
Let’s not knock Pete for providing the transcript. And let’s not get too worked up over Girardi’s remarks. He didn’t say much because (1) he can’t and (2) even if he could there is not really much to say at this point. There are still a few unresolved issued, which anyone who has paid attention at all the past few weeks knows about already. I think Girardi’s confidence in Farnsworth is refreshing although possibly misplaced. If they could move him for decent value, I would not be opposed.
Per Baseball Tonight on ESPN2 just a minute ago.
Great, Girardi said absolutely nothing of importance. This is a real dud of a winter meetings.
But it must be a great feeling to be Boston or Detroit fan. Imagine their excitement and anticipation for spring training to start. Congrats to them.
We get to look forward to seeing how slow Moose is throwing…
End game
girardi is importance!
Good talk Russ.
According to newsday the Twins wanted both hall of famers in the deal.
“The Yankees were offering Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a mid-level prospect. The Twins were pushing to have pitcher Ian Kennedy or pitcher Alan Horne and centerfielder Austin Jackson added to the deal.”
But now they will trade him for Coco Krispies and Fruity Pebbles.
and some Lucky Charms
I love this quote
“Our plan is to create a powerhouse,†Steinbrenner said. “We plan to do that through the draft, through Latin America, through our scouting. That’s the only way to do it to be consistent.â€
Well, they aren’t even a wild card team anymore.
Brandon,
I made a comment on one of the threads today about how the Yankees need to circle the wagons because no one’s going to help us.
Getting tired of Little Steins constant barrage of comments.
According to the star tribune, Yankees never told the twins that they had pulled out of the talks. And no deal is imminent.
What puzzles me is why do they want both Cabrera and Ajax?? That seems redundant.
If they are so turned on by Ajax maybe IPK (Instead of Hughes), Ajax, Horne, Rodriguez and/or Marquez may clinch it.
you know
You mean the Twins didn’t get the e-mail, er, text message, er, voice mail?
obviously they should’ve figured out by now that the Yankees are not players in this hand. obviously
kwary– a link?
Arod must LOVE all of this Santana talk. He is hoping that everyone will be talking about Santana for the next week and the day of Santana’s press conference Arod will sneak in his phone conference to explain opting out and his rat agent. Hoping that no one is paying attention to it anymore because it is old new.
the yankees should just cave and offer Matt DeSalvo
I can’t believe how big baseball is in NYC. This offseason is completely trumping all the other sports in season now. Have you guys seen the LoHud Giants blog? I post there occasionally and my posts actually get read because it’s usually 1 of like 7 comments. I can’t even put in one comment on this Yankees blog and another 50,000 have been added since I started writing. And it’s the freaking offseason! God, I love being a Yankees fan! And everyone’s so funny. Pete must think he’s so popular or something.
http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=288
no offense to him but Lavelle Neal lost all his credibility w/ his BS report on Sunday.
Twins wouldn’t accept unless Carl Pavano is in the deal
Thanks, Kwayry, gives me some hope as I head to bed. not much. But a little.
Funny how last night a million people were writing on the board non stop waiting for a Santana deal. Now that everyone knows the Yanks have a better chance of Farnsworth pitching a 1,2,3 inning then the Yanks getting him its quite now.
That ain’t funny CaptainsCorner. It’s sad.
How in God’s name are the Yankees not a Wild Card team anymore? I just don’t understand how people can post this stuff when not a single pitch has been thrown.
The Red Sox weren’t the AL East champions heading into last season, I can tell you that right now. Nor were the Tigers the AL Champions (period) heading into 2006. Nor were the White Sox World Series contenders heading into 2005.
You can anoint a favorite, if you want, but that’s not going to lead to any guarantees. The Yankees had one of the strongest teams going into the season 2002 through 2005, and have no World Championships to show for it. The Oakland Athletics had one of (if not) the best starting rotations in the American League in 2000 and 2001 and couldn’t get past the first round.
The Atlanta Braves were one of the strongest all-around teams from 1995 on through 2000–one World Championship to show for it. Had one of the best rotations of the decade, too.
…I can go on and on. But even if you want to anoint a favorite, or determine who has the best team going into the season, it’d make a *lot* more sense to make these predictions before Spring Training, after teams have completed making off-season deals and acquisitions and have their lineups, rotations, and bullpens set.
The Yanks will still be fielding a team and playing a 162 game schedule in 2008. You can either root for them without Santana or cry in your beer endlessly. Personally, I think rooting for the team is the way to go.
The Fallen Phoenix please stop making sensible posts. They don’t go over well on this blog.
You have to say something like I am about to say which is generally well received here.
*clears throat* The Yankees should just trade IPK/Gonzales/Desalvo/Karstens to Tampa for Scott Kazmir. That should get it done.
See how easy it is?
Off topic- I had to step out for a while and see my Memphis Tigers win a sloppy basketball game. But we won.
Back on topic now- That is a very good Q and A. Girardi has such an intelligent baseball mind. It’s not easy to believe that anybody can fix Farnsworth’s problems, but if there is anyone who can, Joe is the guy. Joe seems like a great motivator and the power of motivation can do wonders. It made me chuckle when I read some posts counting how many times that he said “obviously.” I guess that it beats hearing Cashman say “uh and um” every three seconds. I’m joking of course.
this interview had 25 obviouslys and 36 you knows
Why all the DeSalvo hate?
Poor Matt DeSalvo
This will be fun team to watch next year, Santana or no Santana. Some fans just need to relax and enjoy the team for what it is.
DeSalvo is no Tyler Clippard!
P.S. – People conceding the next umpteen World Series seem to be conveniently forgetting about the Tigers and the Indians. Two fantastic, well-balanced teams that could definitely beat Boston in a short (playoff) series – even with “god” Santana pitching for the Sox. In the meantime, Phil, Joba and IPK will be getting better and better. Yanks will be back to the big show, just maybe not in the next few years. I can deal with that, because I think the plan they’re following will build a great team for the long-term.
I meant to say “conceding the next umpteen World Series to the Red Sox.”
DeSalvo is no Tyler Clippard!
True.
We would never have been able to trade DeSalvo for Albalabadavacavadejo.
Is that how you spell his name? Albalabadavacavadejo?
Pheonix: it’s a combination of panic, immaturity and the plague of not knowing what one is talking about. Baseball does not lend itself to prediction. We can all try to guess how a season (or even a series) will turn out, but there are too many variables to do it effectively.
A couple of examples from this year:
1. The Yankees started out in a most putrid fashion; terrible for the first three months; double-digits behind Boston and bottom of the AL-East at one point; appeared way out of it as late as the Fourth of July. Ended up making the playoffs, played astonishingly well in the second half and came pretty close to catching the Sox at the end.
2. The Mets were in first place in the division from jump street; led all year. Had a monumental collapse and fell out of the playoffs on the last day of the regular season with Tom Glavine getting shellacked.
3. The Yankees, having made the playoffs, were widely regarded as a lock to beat the Indians; some sports talk-show folk had them sweeping the Indians. Instead, they managed to win one game and were bounced in the first round.
That’s why they play the games, folks.
Optimist Prime is not pleased with the Pessimism.
(Paper progress: One page out of six. Paper is due Thursday, so no panic, at all).
I didn’t feel like looking up his name.
Rebecca: what’s your topic?
Goodnight all. Horne should not be a roadblock. Horne should not be a roadblock. Horne should not be a roadblock. Horne should not be a roadblock. Horne should not be a roadblock. And Horne should not be a roadblock> Remember this day>.
Rebecca – Forgot to mention this last night…In your list of typical Jewish female names you missed “Esther” (which is, after all, Madonna’s favorite!). HA!!!
…for what it’s worth, Nate Silver of Baseball Prospectus–one of the smartest analysts around, who helped develop the highly-regarded PECOTA projection system (infamous for correctly predicting the Chicago White Sox would regress to a 90-loss team this season)–considers the Red Sox, Yankees, Indians, and Tigers to be the four best teams in all of baseball right now.
Personally, I think even if the Red Sox get Santana, the Indians are as good a bet to win the World Series next year: I think they’re going to have as good a rotation (perhaps a little shallower) and a better bullpen. The Red Sox’s offense might be better, depending on how Lowell, Drew, Lugo, and Varitek perform–nevermind that Ellsbury will have to prove he can put together a successful 162-game campaign, and Manny and Ortiz need to keep being the best 1-2 punch in baseball (not unlikely, but both are getting up in age).
The Red Sox aren’t the perfect team, they have some flaws other teams can exploit. I’m not about to proclaim that the Yankees have a better team than the Red Sox, especially if they can land Santana, but I just don’t see how Santana makes them invincible. The Indians had a better rotation than the Red Sox last year with two of the top five starters in the AL and a deeper bullpen, and they still lost in a seven-game series.
Nettles vs. Lee: I wasn’t criticizing. I like it.
Rebecca-
P.S. – I think you and I are some of the only people amongst the many that have posted the past few days that are fine with keeping our prospects and not getting Santana. Weird, isn’t it?
Chicago Dave: no, I’m with you and Rebecca.
I’m insulted that you all call yourselves Yankee fans (those of you counting us out!)
We have the best team even if the Sox get Johan. Their offense isn’t even close to ours. I cannot believe that you have all forgotten the team that TORE UP baseball in the second half last year. Consistently. We can do that all year next year and we have the AL East wrapped up easily. 100 wins would be a disappointment.
Maybe 98 is more realistic. But 105 isn’t far-fetched. Just because Boston will have a pitcher to take the spot of Schilling (since he SUCKS now) doesn’t mean their unbelievable now. We have always hit their big pitchers. WHat is going to change that? Boston getting a new pitcher doesn’t change how much better we are than the rest of baseball. 19 games against the REd Sox. Optimistically, we win 12. Realistically, we win 9 or 10. The other 143 games.. well we should win at least 85 of those.
I can’t believe how quickly things change.. last year people had it as a no brainer that we could make it to the World Series with what we had. Now Santana is on the market (someone we didnt think we’d get until free agency) and it’s impossible. Breathe people. The Red Sox getting slightly better every 5th day doesn’t translate to us missing the playoffs.
Whats your paper on Rebecca?
I’m still doing Coleridge
only 1.75 pages to go!
I’ve been really torn about this whole situations for the last couple days, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll be happy with what happens either way (Yanks getting Santana, Yanks not getting Santana). Getting Santana puts us firmly in the driver’s seat as favorites in the AL. Watching Santana as a Yank will be a lot of fun. The Yanks will have the best pitcher in the game and the best player in the game,what more could I ask for? The team could have the feel of the ’98 team where you know on any given day the Yanks should win. If the Yanks don’t get Santana, we’ll probably be playing the role of the underdog (especially if he goes to the Red Sox). Rooting for the underdog can be a lot of fun, especially with the kids being in the rotation and still being able to watch the best player in the game. The season could have more of the feel of the ’96 team that wasn’t supposed to do much but ended up shocking the world. Either way, I’m a huge Yanks fan and will live and breath the Pinstripes all next summer, enjoying as many moments as possible.
Andrea – Props to you!!! I’m so happy you’re in our little club! (I always thought you had a good head on your shoulders…except for all that DeSalvo/Bruney nonsense, of course!!
)
Chicago Dave,
I also am glad we keep Hughes. I also have a great outlook on life.
Chicago Dave- Count me in as well. I’m perfectly fine with keeping the youngsters and letting things play out.
Chicago Dave: They are VERY nice boys! I never said they were good pitchers. Just cause I don’t freely admit that they are bad pitchers doesn’t mean I think they’re good ones.
I like keeping the prospects. The kids are what made this otherwise miserable year a fun one to watch.
Rebecca and Dan, “If the winter comes, can spring be far behind”. That was the subject of me thesis.
The team as it stands now is pretty good and will compete, but adding Santana to the rotation will only help. If the yankees can take out both Hughes and Cabrera from the deal and package something around IPK, Ajax and Horne, plus another minor leaguer, why is that so bad?
I have a feeling that the Sox do not want to trade for Santana, reading the Boston Globe makes it sound like “sox would turn into the Yankees” if they did that. They also said that Ellsbury’s value will (Please note that they said WILL and not MAY)never be higher.
If they were going to make it hurt for us to get Santana, we might as well return the favor
OK, now I feel like sanity is returning to this board. Hallelujah!!! Now I can sleep much better…THANKS!!!
No “the”. sorry.
let me revise. The entire season wasn’t miserable. But the parts that were, the young players made it fun to watch.
Phoenix, I’ll agree that Ramirez started showing his age, this past season. As for Ortiz, he’s not all that old. He’s only 32. The real concern is….as an example. during the Macy’s Parade, security was alerted that the Red Sox entry, the Davis Ortiz balloon had broken loose from the cables and was grounded.
Andrea – Agreed. Especially Hughes’s game against Texas (except for the hammie injury, of course!), Kennedy’s start against Toronto and pretty much all of Joba except the midge infestation nonsense.
Clowns..(SOrry to insult clowns)..people like captains corner,fleas,reality check, and the rest of the Oxford braintrust.. I am sure you guys were not saying the Yanks would dominate for the next 5 yrs. when the yanks got Arod and the sux lost out..
I am sure you astute baseball minds knew that the Yanks would not win with arod for the next 4 yrs……
So now your crystal balls and your brilliant talent evaluators know who will win for the next five yrs. while you are at it, please inform me who will win in the NL so I can mortgage my house and go to vegas and make a bet, since it is a sure thing.
for the moron fans who are upset since detroit and the sux(supposively) are making all the headlines, if headlines win games the yanks would have won a few more titles the last few yrs..so the Yankees got no new toys this offseason what a crime…
really the level of spoiled mentatlity and entitlement on this site is pretty scary.
the only good news is I know most yankee fans are smarter then the whiners who post there drivel on this site….
Sorry for the extra “‘s” in that last post. Typing late at night can get a little dicey! LOL.
I don’t think the Yankees could have gone wrong with landing Santana, but I personally favored keeping Hughes and posted more than once to that effect, I think.
…I’m going to add a little more food for thought before I turn in:
The Seattle Mariners in 2001 set an AL-record for most wins in a single season. This was after the Mariners lost Griffey, Rodriguez, and Randy Johnson the previous couple years, therefore leading most of baseball to believe the Mariners were due for a serious regression. But after shocking the baseball world and putting up one of the better single-season performances in major league history…
…they lost to the Yankees in the ALCS. In five games.
Boston wasn’t even a 100-win team last season (though they were close if you look at run-differential). It’s not likely Santana adds ten or fifteen wins to the Red Sox (although anything can happen, as my own example points out) next season, so I cannot see them being some ridiculous regular season superpower. And even if they were, there’s precedent for regular season superpowers to be felled in those pesky playoffs.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Oakland team in 2001, which the Yankees also beat, happened to be a 104-win team. A Yankee team that won 95 games that year, but had the run differential of an 89-win team.
Just some food for thought everyone. Good night (morning).
*giggles* You lot are funny.
I’m writing my paper on comparing and contrasting Marian Halcombe and Laura Fairlie in Wilkie Collins’ Woman in White.
Said paper is not my thesis.
My thesis is *ahem*
“As a new monarch who had usurped the throne from a 500-year-old dynasty, Henry VII of England faced numerous challenges to the security of his throne. His reaction to these challenges helped to secure his legacy and establish a Tudor dynasty…through things such as financial policy, dynastic marriage and a firm hand in dealing with rebellion, Henry VII was able to strengthen his position and provide for a stable succession for his son, and a century of Tudor rule”.
*breath*
Stuart, I’ll agree to what you said, but,
Supposively?
Wow, Rebecca, you’re really on the cutting edge there!
Phoenix – Yep, that’s what I’m talking about! Great post!!
Rebecca: Wow, that is a mouthful! I’m grateful I majored in math.
Nice Thesis Rebecca….something I know nothing about, but nice nonetheless.
A fellow Math major here, alright!!!
First of all it is “their” drivel. But all I have been posting for th umpteenth time is that once you make the decisiuon to trade PH (which the Yankees did), you don’t let Horne slow you down. The Yankees did– that’s why they question them.
Henry VII is like Jorge Posada: One of the best EVER, but always, always, always underrated.
Seriously, look up his life…especially up to 1485. It ain’t boring.
Tomorrow the ESPN magazine comes out with Joba on the cover for winning the next best thing. So who won it in 04? Kaz Matsui. Hopefully Joba is a good one.
rodg12: nice to meet you! I messed it all up by going to law school . . .
At least the Yanks/Cashman reach out to all the other clubs and try to get a foot in the door on all the big deals. Just imagine how Joe Torre must be feeling now…The Dodgers pretty much signed him and said “we’re done.” The only major deal they’ve been tied to was Cabrera, and they bowed out of that pretty quickly, from what I understand. Joe is going to rue the day he left the Yanks. It’s a whole new world out there without the Steinbrenners’ cash and desire to win backing you up!
Yeah, but, Ellen, ain’t it nice to be able to count all of those dollars?
Didn’t LeBron win NEXT one year? It can go either way.
GreenBeret: good one! I didn’t say I was a successful lawyer, though!
Well, goodnight all, and thanks for all the optimism.
Rebecca – The Black Death was “interesting.” Tudor Kings? Hmmm…Not so much.
ellen – Ouch! I went to law shool as well, but that’s because I was clueless at math. Why did you bother with law if you had some facility with mathematics?!!
I have a friend and fellow math major who also took that route and is currently in law school. I’d never really heard of a math major going to law school prior to that but now I have another example!
Dave: I ask myself that every single day . . .
People that are good at math and go to law school end up practicing tax law…A VERY lucrative field of the law but VERY dull.
Chi Dave: Not interesting?
Dude.
Henry VII lived most of the first half of his life in exile as nothing more than a pawn. Which meant he was kind of like Melky Cabrera or Phil Hughes is to Bill Smith and Brian Cashman ATM
He then invaded England, won a crown, and ohbytheway killed Richard III.
Which would be like Melky hitting an ALCS winning HR against Josh Beckett.
rodj12: it’s actually not that rare; supposedly it’s a logic thing. You look at a legal case like a mathematical proof or something like that.
Chicago D, The Dodgers have the makings of a solid team in the NL West. Torre is the perfect kindergarten teacher for that crew. That was the problem and a large reason for him being hired.
ellen: Interesting…makes a lot of sense though.
Well all, it’s bed time for this guy. Go Yanks!!
Rebecca – Yes, but so many royal figures were pawns and/or exiles in that era…It was kind of like a rite of passage…You just weren’t “cool” as a royal unless you were usurped, used, kidnapped, held for ransom, beheaded, etc., etc. So, I personally don’t find old Henry VII all that special for his era…
And I don’t know how plausible it is to compare Yankee players to medieval royalty!
nicely done rebecca, nicely done.
Math, law, baseball. The makings of another Scott Boras.
any bobcat news?
stuart.
You are a brilliant poster, and obviously you are well versed in the english vernacular.
Please share with us all your other mental strengths.. because quite clearly calling the redsox ‘the sux’ demonstrates your only hope in getting your point a cross is by attempting to pontificate using childish nicknames.
KEEP POSTING KIDDO.
P.S. I didn’t get my master from Oxford, but I did from Harvard. Heh, go figure.. and I have been a Yankee fan since the late 70′s.
Rebecca – And Why Henry VII instead of Henry VIII? Henry VIII was way MORE of a bad-ass than his predecessor. I mean, saying “screw you” to the Pope (especially back in those days) and routinely having your wives killed in fantastic fashion…Now that’s a true character!!! HA!!
Rebecca, Most of them have been right Randy Moss, Arod, Vince Carter, Reggie Bush, LeBron, Urlacher, Yao Ming.
I have never imagined that there is a link between english history and baseball, now I know better and ready for bed.
Chi Dave:
Hey man, I try
But seriously, Henry didn’t even really have a claim to the throne. His mother had a better claim.
Have I mentioned that (when he was younger, obviously) he was pretty darn good-looking?
“Have I mentioned that (when he was younger, obviously) he was pretty darn good-looking?”
OK, now you’re scaring me just a tinch…
you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know. you know.
oh my god!!! this guy needs to stop saying “you know” so much. i won’t be able to take this all year.
Based on the above Q&A, it looks like Girardi hits softballs even better than he hit baseballs.
Good night everyone! Glad Phil is still with us!!!
Chicago Dave, at least for now anyway. Who knows what tomorrow… errr today will bring.
Chicago Dave,
Not to answer for Rebecca, but Henry VIII has been done to death by scholars. Finding the interesting person/angle/event that has been overlooked/misunderstood is the key to keeping yourself relevant. Think of it more like finding an Edwar in the indy leagues (except if he was really good) or drafting Pettitte in the late rounds.
Everyone needs to lay off Joe for saying “obviously” a lot. I’m sure that if someone transcribed one of your conversations, you would see “um,” or “like,” or “literally” just as many times. How about judging him on his knowledge of baseball or his responses as a whole, like grown-ups?
rbizzler – Very true. Honestly, I was just trying to have some good-natured fun with Rebecca, that’s all.
OK, now I’m seriously going to bed. By late morning I expect the Santana-to-Sox trade will be confirmed, but I guess we’ll see…
Chi Dave:
EVERYONE does Henry VIII. And I mean EVERYONE.
Yea, he was pretty bad ass. Yea, he killed two of his wives. But EVERYONE does him.
Hell, I can sum up his life right now:
Born 1490. Second son, raised to be a priest, not a king and thus developed interest in theology. Older brother dies six months after marriage; brother’s betrothed, Katherine of Aragon becomes his own betrothed, but the two don’t marry until Henry VII dies. KofA and him are married nigh on 20 years, have one surviving child, daughter, Mary. Eventually Henry gets bitten by the lust bug. Falls in with Anne Boleyn. Boleyn won’t actually do the do unless she’s his wife, so Henry finds random bible passage that says his marriage to KofA was actually some horrible sin (when, in fact, there’s a passage directly contracting it). Henry attempts to get a divorce the legal way, when that doesn’t work he says ‘screw the pope’ and does it his own way. Marries AB. AB has daughter, Elizabeth, then miscarries. No son. Henry is furious. Anne is executed on trumped up adultery and incest charges along with Henry Norris, Brereton, George Boleyn and two others who escape me. Anne’s execution means that Henry is free to marry his new paramour, Jane Seymour. JS has boy child, Edward, but then gets sick and dies. Henry is distraught. Marries no one for a while but is convinced to marry Anne of cleves to cement a Protestant alliance. Only one problem: Anne is ugly as a horse. Marriage fails, and the one who arranged it, Thomas Cromwell, waves bye-bye to his head. Henry next falls for Katherine Howard, not caring that KH is AB’s cousin an just as ‘loose’, shall we say. She is all but caught in the act and her head winds up on a spike. Old and gross, Henry married Katherine Parr more as a nurse than anything else. KP’s head nearly ends up on a spike, but she pleads that she’s a woman and thus her words mean nothing, so she survives his death, but not long after, because she gets pregnant by her FOURTH husband and dies after the birth.
I left a lot out. Especially the Church thing and the foreign pollicy thing, and the Thomas More thing, but it’s late.
MJL i dont think anyone is going to joe g’s face and laughing at him. we are just making jokes on a comment board. breathe easy, its only winter meetings
wow fleas since the late 70′s a fan.. this also is a baseball site not a site for english teachers to evalaute our vocabulary..
agains scholar, what was your brilliant evaluation of the arod for soriano trade??You saw championships on the horizon I am sure since you are such an astute evaluator of talent..
are you up to the yanks giving 8 players in AAA or the major league roster for santana? or only 7??also should they sign Snatana to a 6 yr contract or how about 8 yrs.since it is only money and when his contract is a albatross I am sure you will not be complaining about the bad signing..
Also when is AJax going to be that bust you are suggesting with Horne??? I assume you have seen Lowrie on the sux(since you like when I do that) and what is your evaluation of his future????
See morons like you post here and never come back to say you were wrong which occurs about 70% of the time….Go to sleep now so you can get up early and watch your cartoons, clown…..
I wonder if the Yankees could get Joe Nathan from the Twins without giving up one of the big three?
Evil Empire -
Pretty sure I didn’t say anyone was, it’s just not funny, and I’m surprised people even noticed it at all, because I certainly didn’t. It’s like when Pete talked smack about Josh Phelps out of nowhere – uncalled for and even more unfunny.
OFF TOPIC
MIGUEL CABRERA and DONTRELLE WILLIS TRADED TO TIGERS FOR 6 PLAYERS
not finalized but wow, tigers will be very good, granderson, sheff, mags, migs
Joe has the Jeter/Cashman meet the media skills. Talk alot and don’t say nothing they can use. I think he is going to be a refreshing change for the Yanks and will be tougher as well
the Tigers probably will be very good next yr. but they have gutted their depth and minor leagues..
gone or injured are Jurgens(good potential), Zumaya, maybin, miller(huge upside) and supposively 3 of there top 5 arms…
there issues are the pen and pitching depth, there lineup is great……
Kurt,
How long has it been since you thought of Joe T.? Hard to believe he was the manager just 2 months ago.
stuart: those tigers you described sound like another team…hmm problems are bullpen and pitching depth. oh yea still the yankees! but we have better closer and a deeper but young rotation
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3142030
Hmmmm…looks like IT AINT OVER YET, FOLKS !
http://www.rotoworld.com/conte.....038;spln=1
The Fat Lady isn’t even in the building…..Santana ultimately ending up as Yankees is nowhere near a lock…
I don’t know why the Twins wouldn’t drag this out for a few weeks. They’d be able to get at least as good of a deal from the Yankees or Red Sox. I definitely don’t see Hughes being traded in another deal.
I doubt that Lester or Ellsbury would be traded either.
In my opinion, the Tigers trade today (along with the strength of the Indians) will complicate the Twins thinking. Should they go for younger prospects and build for 2 years from now and not the present? I would think so.
The Nick Green deal is going to shore everything up.
No more news ? it is only 4 AM ! LOL
Pinstripes PA—->
Update-9:00 p.m.
This is not really an update, more of an opinion. I think the Yankees are fine with their rotation, but the bullpen is in serious need of an overhaul. If the Yankees could add a Joe Nathan and or Damaso Marte without giving up Hughes or Chamberlain, the Yankees would become a much stronger team. Nathan would of course be ideal. If he would accept a set-up role, the Yankees could build a strong pen around Rivera, Nathan, Farnsworth, Vizcaino and Britton, not to mention someone like Alan Horne and Humberto Sanchez. Just a thought.
—————————————-
I totally agree and think we should do exactly that. Marte might be easy to get since he’s been shopped for the last two years but Nathan would be a huge trade. He’s probably going to be a closer though for the Cubs or Brewers probably. If we could somehow get him as our set-up man with the thought he’d take the closing job over eventually he’d be a monster addition for us.
FRom this morning’s NY Daily News:
NASHVILLE – Even though George Steinbrenner is no longer the one to say it, Brian Cashman had better be right about Phil Hughes.
The Yankee GM, who is staking his job on his young-gun pitchers, has walked away from a 4-for-1 trade of players the Twins were agreeable to for Johan Santana at the winter meetings that included Hughes, but not Ian Kennedy (as Minnesota initially requested) or any of the Bombers’ other top prospects. By doing so, Cashman has apparently handed one of the best young pitchers in baseball to the Red Sox for a parcel of prospects that is also likely to be a far cry from the Twins’ original asking price for their premier lefthander.
But it is more than just Cashman’s belief in Hughes that suddenly put the Yankees in full retreat after Hank Steinbrenner had sounded the “Charge!” on Santana. Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table – one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss – was based on money.
Once Andy Pettitte announced he was returning to the fold for $16 million, it meant the Yankees had committed $408.4 million this winter to retain six players. The acquisition of Santana would have meant tacking on another $125 million to that figure, and Cashman, who never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place, blanched at the prospect of adding another $20 million to a payroll that was already on the cusp of $200 million, again. In this respect, the timing of Pettitte’s decision to return – while initially seen as giving the Yankees additional leverage in their dealings with the Twins on Santana – actually gave Cashman the “out” he needed.
So Andy’s return could have been the reason the Yanks declined on Santana. Amazing!
woowowowowow
Thats a deal that should have been done….Hughes,Cabrera,Marquez,Hilligoss
I trust CashMoney………I hope he is right.
Madden’s the only one to have added those 2 specific names (Marquez and Hilligoss) indicating that group of 4 would have gotten it done. If true that’s a tough non-deal to accept as a fan knowing Santana may be headed to the Sox, especially with all the payroll off the books the next 2 years.
Didn’t the Yankees go 8-3 in their last 11 games against the Red Sox? Unless something changes, the Yankees will be fielding that same team. The Red Sox might get Santana. MIGHT get Santana. If they do, they have clearly improved, but as far as them playing against us, Beckett only had 4 starts against us last year (and he didn’t put up very impressive numbers BTW). My point is, if Santana is on the Red Sox, it isn’t going to have a significant impact on the Yankees record. In fact, I would say that having our young guys start the season with us after the experience they had last year will more than compensate for having to face Santana 2 or 3 more times than we did last season.
On the other hand, I’m really looking forward to having about 30 chances to see Phil or Joba pitch at the Stadium next year.
I think the tigers trade throws a wrench in everything..
Even the Johan Deal..
Now you look at that tiger rotation
rogers, verlander, bonderman, robertson, willis
and you wonder if you got the pitching to stack up against them in the playoffs..
yanks dont have the pitching for the playoffs.. atleast not IMO. Tigers had a chance to get Proven players and they traded away some nice nice talent..
will the yanks or sox do the same?
Sox have the pitching to match up with detroit in the playoffs.. so for them johan is not a top priority..
but will the yanks budge?
if hank sticks to his “trade Deadline” the way he sticks to his diet.. the yanks will be getting johan
Obviously that was a good interview.
Drive 4-5
My guess, since money was the issue, and remember Santana was on the books for 13.5M next year, in 2009, when the Yankees move into their new stadium, there will be some 50M or more off the payroll when Santanas 22-25M would kick in.
Therefore if money + not wanting to deal Hughes and Kennedy, and not wanting to move Damon back to center, or spend millions more for a FA centerfielder, is that the Yankees go with what they have.
Starters:
Pettitte
Wang
Hughes
Mussina
Kennedy
Relievers:
Rivera
Chamberlain [yes back in the bullpen]
Igawa [as a lefty]- too much money invested in him, unless he’s traded
Ohlendorf
Veras
Britton
Ramirez
Other minor leaguers could be in the mix such as Henn, Bruney, the new acqusition from the Nationals.
What do you all think?
Look at that Tiger Rotation- 3 lefties. Does anyone have Yankees lefty batting statistics both the 1st half and the 2nd half of the season against left-handed pitchers thrown against us? The 1st half was probably deplorable, as Abreu, Cano, Damon , Giambi weren’t getting many hits against any pitchers!
Drive 4-5–Nice find. That’s a lot money committed to a couple of players.
Yankee Trader–Have Chamberlain in the rotation and everything would be straight.
E-Roc
Would like Joba in the rotation also, but who is the set-up guy?-Farnsworth? [ I even forgot about listing him with the other potential relief staff, because I had hoped he get's traded]!
One of the reasons why I got ticked off at all the whining yesterday was that folks were placing blame in the wrong direction.
The Yankees didn’t do the deal because of Hank Steinbrenner or anything he said. They didn’t do the deal because of Brian Cashman.
Simply put, Cashman didn’t want to give up Hughes or any of the younger prospects for Santana and add another $150 million to the payroll.
Right move or wrong move? We shall see.
Its certainly a gutsy move. Especially when the owner had no problems writing the check for Santana.
One thing you have to say about Hank Steinbrenner. He does let the baseball people make the baseball decisions.
If it was up to him, he would have done the deal. He deferred to his GM on this matter.
Now, the heat is on Cashman. If he is right about the young arms, he made the right decision. If he’s wrong, he will be out of a job.
That’s what I call pressure!
IMO, Andy changed everything. Going from a desperate position to one not so desperate. I also think that if Hank could ever stop talking, which I think hurts the Yankees, but helps the media, Cash could do his job.
Look at what Cash gave up for Abreu, see what he didn’t give up for Gagne, and the fact the the Sheff and RJ deals where very quite and quick.
I really want to see what Phil can do over a full season, healthy, which I believe that if he didn’t get hurt this wouldn’t even be being talked about because he would be untouchable and I think Cash knows that.
Living in RI, I am surrounded by RSN, thier media the whole nine yards, and I think McAdams of the Projo, is one of the best beat writers around. I totally agree with him that the Sawx could afford Santana, but it is more about thier pholosiphy, (Pats-like)look at all of thier deals lately, Damon, Schill, Lowell, Dice-K, they did what was best for them. Drew and Lugo were different cases, Theo has had thing for Drew for years and Lugo was a need.
So, stay tuned, this is far from over. I hope Santana stays with Minny and then we could really see the Yankees and Sawx go at it next year.
Yankee Trader–At the moment, the setup man is Farnsdearth. Girardi believes he knows what ”buttons” to press to get Farnsdearth straightened out. I still think the Yankees will acquire another reliever or two via trade. Then there are internal options like Kevin Whelan, Scott Patterson, Wordkemper, Melancon, and others.
in Joel Sherman’s article today about how the yankees should have pulled the trigger for Johann, he states:
“How good is this Yankee package? Hughes is the surest thing, and he has a questionable work ethic and more of an injury history at 21 than Santana at 28″
Does anyone know to what specifically he is referring to? I have never read anything of the sort on phil.
I think that Sherman is an a$$ at times. If the Yankees make the Santana deal he will write an article that the Yankees buy thier way out of everything and don’t care about youth or something like that.
Buster Olney on Mike and Mike
Santana/Sox deal unlikely to happen. Believes the Yankees are really out because the room was split on the trade to start with.
Timing of Pettitte’s return not a coincidence. Yankee officials against the Santana acquisition put a full court press on Andy to get him back.
I looked over the names in these articles. I’ve seen all of them play except for Patterson and Melancon. Other than Ohlendorff and Hughes, the one I’d hate st see NYY lose is Mitch Hilligoss. He is going to be a special kind of hitter.
E-ROC
Hopefully Girardi can straighten out Farnsworth mentally, but physically he’s not up to the task, with his bad back. Is “cringe” the right verb to use when Farnsworth comes into the game with a small lead? Even with a 4-5 run lead?
Hughes is not real big on weight lifting. He’s not out of shape, but, he’s also not exactly a fitness freak like Clemens abd Pettitte. He’s not David Wells, though, either. More Mike Mussina.
It’s finally becoming clear that the RS had no inetntion of pulling the trigger on this deal. The Yankeees need to wait until the end of the meeting and next week before contacting the Twins. Santana will still be there next week.
I’d rather just see Santana wind up with the Twins or out of the AL but I’m certain he won’t wind up in Boston.
Hank’s mouth had ZERO to do with anything here. This was Cashman’s and the baseball ops call.
The Twins don’t care what Hank says. It means nothing and it doesn’t have any impact on whether or not Cash can do his job.
Cash got what he wanted….no deal. How did Hank’s mouth get in the way of that when he got what he wanted?
I do think that a solid veteran reliever or two are necessary pickups, especially if the Viz is pricing himself out of returning. I want to see the kids in the bullpen as well but if, other than Farnsworth, our other non-Mo returning pieces are the likes of Ohlendorf and Veras, we’re going to need a hell of a lot more stability than that. I can sleep at night with three top-notch rookies in the rotation. I can do so less if that’s augmented with another four or five coming in in relief.
..and. if the Sox back out (which i’m not holding my breath on), when we get back to the Twins, we keep Hughes off the table. it’s not like they’ve got anyone else to bargain with.
Regardless of the outcome of the Santana sweepstakes, someone really needs to hit Hank over his melon head with the sledgehammer and cut out his tongue because his pie hole is already getting way too big for his britches.
I happen to agree with much of what Hank has said in recent weeks but he really needs to learn and understand that his candor with the media is not helping his team at all.
His latest gaffe was last night claiming that Beane’s demands for Haren are “ridiculous.” He’s right about that but it doesn’t need to be said to the media.
Hank sounds more like Mark Cuban everyday.
Re: the Tigers. Let’s examine their pitching staff.
Willis hasn’t been good for two years. Now, he is going to the AL. Not going to be easy. The plus for him is that he is pitching in a pitchers ballpark and they will have a great offense.
The negative is, when you have a 5 ERA in the NL, that doesn’t bode well for AL success.
Robertson is nothing special and Kenny Rogers is coming off an injury filled season at 41.
That leaves Verlander and Bonderman. Verlander is a stud and while Bonderman struggled the second half of last year, he is a solid pitcher.
They don’t have Zumaya for the season. A HUGE loss. Especially since they will be playing a lot of high scoring games and will need their bullpen to throw a lot of innings.
They still have Todd Jones closing.
While their offense will be great, the Yankees have better pitching than the Tigers at this time.
That deal hurts the Indians. It doesn’t hurt the Yankees.
Olney made it sound like it may be the Twins who are having second thoughts.
Giuseppe Franco
December 5th, 2007 at 7:43 am
Regardless of the outcome of the Santana sweepstakes, someone really needs to hit Hank over his melon head with the sledgehammer and cut out his tongue because his pie hole is already getting way too big for his britches.
I happen to agree with much of what Hank has said in recent weeks but he really needs to learn and understand that his candor with the media is not helping his team at all.
His latest gaffe was last night claiming that Beane’s demands for Haren are “ridiculous.†He’s right about that but it doesn’t need to be said to the media.
Hank sounds more like Mark Cuban everyday.
_________________________________________________
The fact of the matter is that the word that Beane put out was that he was looking for a deal for AT LEAST what Santana brings in. He’s another GM that makes it tough for the Yanks to do business with.
The Twins should be having second thoughts on that deal.
It’s highway robbery for the Red Sox if they pull it off.
Tigers will be built for regular season success because they can mash there way to 90 some wins. Look at the Yanks last year. The rotation was in shambles much of the season and wasn’t nearly as good as its going to be this year or the Tigers rotation will be this year and they still won 90+ games. Our rotation broke the record for different pitchers making their major league debut. I think both teams will make the playoffs along with the Red Sox and Angels but I guess we have a lot of games and a long time to find out. One injury to a key person could bring any team down
SJ,
Any thoughts on innings caps and how that will affect the beginning of the season? Since it is speculated that Kennedy won’t have one do you see him being penciled into the rotation for sure just b/c of the innings caps on Joba/Hughes???
GB7,
I don’t disagree with Hank on the Beane demands, it just doesn’t need to be said publicly. That’s just stupid PR.
If it hasn’t already, Hanks’s big mouth is going to come back and bite him on the @ss sooner or later.
It’s just a matter of time.
Can someone post exactly what Olney said on Mike and Mike about the Sox/Twins deal not being likely?
If the Sox are out, the Yankees did the best thing they possibly could have done by pulling their offer. If the Twins come back to the Yankees, they need to make a strong offer without Hughes. Kennedy, Melky, Tabata, and Horne. It’s definitely a lot, but losing 2 prospects from our farm system won’t kill it if it’s as good as it’s supposed to be.
Madden does not cite one source in his article.
He merely states his take on Cashman as Gospel truth.
Could it be that Madden is in this case acting as the ownership’s mouthpiece, shifting the attention to Cash?
no.27 I agree 100% if it is the case of the Sox pulling out.
Giuseppe Franco
December 5th, 2007 at 7:54 am
GB7,
I don’t disagree with Hank on the Beane demands, it just doesn’t need to be said publicly. That’s just stupid PR.
If it hasn’t already, Hanks’s big mouth is going to come back and bite him on the @ss sooner or later.
It’s just a matter of time.
__________________________________________________
Perhaps, but, maybe not. He’s comsistant, like his father. It could happen at any time. The thing is, like his father, it’s almost always directed at what’s been said. Neither ever attacked a person or an organization, outside of the Yanks. The trouble he had would come then.
One other thing about Beane. The only times he really attempts to extort other teams talent is when dealing his pitchers off. I’m always leery of getting an A’s pitcher, because that ballpark distorts the pitching numbers so badly, and Oakland pitchers seem to break down earlier than some.
Interesting Madden article. Cashman knows what he’s doing, I’m glad he’s on our side.
No team is perfect. Every team has flaws. Its why, even though folks hate the expression, playoff baseball has become such a crapshoot.
You can only build your team for the long haul. Anybody who says they are building their team for playoff success (as Theo said in 2006) they find out, as Theo did, you don’t make the playoffs.
You build your team for the long haul and hope you get hot for two weeks.
Its really all you can do.
As far as innings caps are concerned, there are numerous ways to handle it. One, strict pitch counts. Two, a great bullpen that can be turned over a bit at mid-season with fresh, power arms. To do that though, you have to have depth in your farm system because acquiring power arms at mid-season is expensive.
The Yankees have enough arms internally, especially if Melancon and Sanchez are at full strength by July, to do what they did last year…..turn half the ‘pen over at mid-season with fresher arms.
Seems to me, because of all the prolific offenses, its the way to go in the AL.
no 27. making a strong offer without hughes, kennedy, horne, melky, tabata is impossible. you think chase wright,austin jackson and gonzalez are going to get it done? come on be serious…
Austin Jackson or Jose Tabata are two of the deal breakers besides Chamberlain and adding two starters in any Santana deal. Those two kids can play and play well.
No. Maybe I should have typed it differently. I meant offer Kennedy, Melky, Tabata, and Horne. If you reread the post now, it might make more sense. Anyway, I don’t know if that package would get the deal done even with the Red Sox out of the race, if in fact, they are out of the race. What I was getting at is if the Twins come back to the Yankees, we need to hold Hughes back without lowballing them completely. I don’t them want to give the whole farm away, but lowballing them won’t work. We’ve got lots of prospects, and I think that we will get a few more each year. People upset about the Yankees pulling their offer have made some good points about the Yankees current core starting to get older and if we can get Santana by trading away Kennedy, Melky and 2 or even 3 top prospects, I think we should do it.
I’ve been away for 2 weeks and feel like I’ve missed a whole season!
On Santana, my gut says having 22 wins out of Hughes+IPK at $800k trumps 20 wins from Santana at $23mil + trading away half the farm. I really think Sox is just bluffing and not serious about the trade. I hope Santana stays in MN and we can outbid Sox in his FA in ’09 to replace Andy. I’m ok with 2008 as a rebuilding year/transitional year for the kids.
Even if Boston is serious about landing Santana, I don’t think we should ever make drastic move to our club and payroll just to preempt what another team may do, even if it’s the Sox. We build our own team, we can’t let the Sox run the Yankees. If we go for Santana b/c the team managers and talent analysts truly believe having him is better than the prospect of Hughes+Melky+Horne/Ajax/Kennedy down the line, fine, let’s go get him. But please never bring in a guy like that and completely shake up our club just for the sake of the Sox.
Yeah that is a good point. Another thing that will help may be a solidified rotation. The bullpen got taxed hard at the beginning of the season and a lot of people had dead arms by midseason. Hopefully they pick up a guy or 2 and save a few spots for the young guys to go along with Rivera and Farns.
Is it just me? or has the NL become the farm system for the AL. There are probably some AAA clubs that can compete for a wild caed in that league.
A side note:
Thank you once again for being the voice of reason SJ…
The Yankees farm system with all the power arms will be the most equiped to upgrade at the trade deadline.
The easy decision for Cashman to make would have been to acquire Santana, especially with one year left on his contract. It says something that he believes enough in his young pitching that he willing to stake his job and reputation on them.
Dee,
I think if Kennedy and Hughes win 22 taking up two spots in the rotation and Santana wins 20 on his own it would be very very far from being equal. Take out the names and ask if you would rather have two 11 win pitchers or one 20 game winners. I’m not saying any of those three pitchers will win that few or that many but in your hypothetical it would be far from equal no matter what you are spending.
You don’t offer anything. They already had the superior offer and it was rejected. Why offer more?
The Twins have a dilemma. There is no longer any competition to sweeten the pot. The Red Sox can keep their take it or leave it offers on the table and the Twins either have to take a light deal for Santana or pass on it.
I think he is going to stay in Minnesota. My reasoning? If there was going to be a deal, it would have been last night. Which, BTW, was the Twins deadline (according to them) to get a deal done.
Its not like the Red Sox have to improve their offers. There no longer is any competition for Santana’s services.
Plus, do you really think the Red Sox want to do this deal? It goes against everything in their philosophy re: team building.
They got into it to thrwart the Yankees. They didn’t get into it to add 150 million to their payroll.
Bill Smith can’t make the Red Sox deal or he gets run out of town.
The Yankees pulling out of the talks leaves him with zero leverage to extract a better package from the Red Sox.
Its why he should have jumped on the Yankees offer when they put Hughes in the deal.
In all of these deals, Hughes was, far and away, the best player offered by either team.
Smith did what too many rookie GM’s do. He overshopped and blew his leverage.
He is now left with either taking a light package from the Red Sox for Santana or keeping him. He’s better off keeping him now. Doesn’t mean he will but, that would be the better play for him at this point.
All it takes is one NL team to do it the right way by building a good farm and spending enough (and spending it wisely) to be able to make it to the World Series year after year though. If a team is able to do that they are probably going to win one or two just because the World Series can sometimes be which team is hotter at the time. The Mets are trying to do it they just aren’t very good at the spending wisely/building a good farm system part.
NYY offered a package that was more than fair enough. In fact, it was better than the origional package that was Kennedy instead of Hughes that smith said was an acceptable deal…until he started wanting to add more players in while Boston never changed their two packages. Each of those deals contained either Lester or Ellsbury, but never both in the same deal.
If the Twins come to the Yankees and will accept a package based around Kennedy and Melky, I think a deal has to be made. Sure, we could sign him next year, but that’s not guaranteed. Having him on this year’s roster and ensuring that we get him signed is worth giving up that package.
By the way, where did the Twins say they set a deadline?
I look for this deal to die, and maybe get started again after the first of the year. That gives them at least two months to work a deal. Anytime after February 1st, I doubt Santana approves a trade.
VOIII,
Its a tough call. I gotta admit, if I am the GM of the Yankees, and my owner has no problem writing the check, I probably pull the trigger on the deal if it was Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez-Hilligoss.
Now, I don’t know if Madden is accurate with the players he had in his column. If he is, that’s a deal I probably make, even though I lose Hughes and add that kind of money to the bottom line.
I do, however, understand both sides of it. When you commit long term money to pitching, you REALLY roll the dice.
One injury changes everything. See Carl Pavano and Jared Wright. A total of 54 million bucks out the window for little production. That hurts.
Its why I don’t think the Red Sox really want to do the deal. Their payroll setup for pitching is based on shorter term financial commitments. That gets blown out of the water with Santana.
I also understand Cashman’s attachment to the prospects. When you develop your own, its impossible not to form attachments to them.
For example, I love Mark Melancon. I think he has the chance to be a Papelbon-like stud for the Yankees. He was a dominant college pitcher with the kind of stuff that translates well to MLB.
He is now healthy and the Yankees are VERY excited about what he brings to the table.
When I heard last week he was one of the names on the list submitted to the Twins, my first reaction was, NO!!!
You form attachments to guys you see and project to be dominant players.
I understand both sides of the debate. Its not as easy a call to make when you think like a GM instead of a fan.
Its why these guys get paid the big bucks to make the tough decisions.
Let’s hope Buster is right about troubles in the Twins/Sox negotiations. Maybe the Detroit trade helped change the dynamics.That would really help here. But if the trade does come off, that’s life and will have to watch the season play out with our “young guns”. Does anyone remember 2003 when the Marlins had their young “no name” staff? or Detroit in 2006? It can happen in New York. Our line-up is not chopped liver!
Damon
Jeter
Abreu
A-Rod
Matsui
Posada
Giambi
Cano
Melky
It will be a fun, winning an exciting season with lots of upside.
IMO, they still need to make this deal. With Pettitte back in the fold, Cashman should go for the throat.
They dont like Melky, and they like AJax? Thats fine. I’d pull back Melky, and offer Hughes, AJax, Marquez, and another minor leaguer.
Its not a player rental, and its not a guy who’s going to fizzle after his first year in NY. Johan is a stud, and with Santana in the rotation, you’d still have 4 starting pitchers under the age of 30, but now including a true Ace, and your MLB rotation is set up for the next 5 years.
SJ44, That’s a good deal, but, I’d rather see them replace Hilligoss with Reegie Corona and Colin Curtis or Justin Christian…or all three.
“But it is more than just Cashman’s belief in Hughes that suddenly put the Yankees in full retreat after Hank Steinbrenner had sounded the “Charge!†on Santana. Believe it or not, the final decision not to go through with a deal that was on the table – one that would have sacrificed Hughes, Melky Cabrera, 23-year-old Double-A righthander Jeff Marquez and 22-year-old A-ball third baseman Mitch Hilligoss – was based on money.”
*totally insane that you don’t get Santana for that package…I know I don’t run the team, but I think THAT there was a bonehead non-move, especially if Johan ends up in Beantown playing for the Sux along with Beck@$$*
SJ,
Do you think that Hank talking through the media has hurt Cashmans’ ability to do a deal?
Also, from what you have seen in your life in regards to players, do you think Santana has what it takes (body-type) to be a dominant pitcher years 4-6 of the deal?
Eveyone says that he is the most dominante pitcher in the game, and I don’t disagree, but no one ever talks about how long they are that way, even the best pitcher has a shelf life.
Hilligoss does seem to have the potential to be very special. He is easily one of the most consistent hitters I have seen at any level, but in two years(give or take)there really isn’t anywhere to put him. His position will either be 2B or 3B and both a occupied well into the future. I think that would help ease the sting of losing him.
The problem is, Green Baret, the Twins don’t go for that deal.
They don’t need Curtis. Christian is a AAAA player and Corona is ok but, not a as good a prospect as Lowrie.
The Twins would rather have a kid like Angelini, who isn’t yet available to be traded. I also doubt the Yankees would trade Angelini.
The Twins best play right now is to keep Santana and re-visit it at the trade deadline, depending on their situation in the standings.
Better to go that way than settle for a bad deal. Which is what they are doing if they accept the Red Sox package.
SJ44, you’re usually more balanced and rational than you seem to be this morning.
look at these gems you’ve offered today (CAPS are not me freaking or raising my voice, only used to differentiate between what you wrote and what I wrote):
“Bill Smith can’t make the Red Sox deal or he gets run out of town.” SAYS WHO? B/C YOU W/ YOUR INFINITE BASEBALL WISDOM DON’T LIKE THE DEAL? ABSURD.
“Plus, do you really think the Red Sox want to do this deal? It goes against everything in their philosophy re: team building.” GOES AGAINST THEIR PHILOSOPHY?? HOW DO YOU THINK THEY GOT TWO WS RINGS IN FOUR YEARS? ANSWER: Schilling, dealing Nomar, trading for Beckett & Lowell, signing DiceK…YOU’RE JUST FLAT OUT WRONG HERE B/C YOU’RE ASSUMING THE TWO THINGS HAVE TO BE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE: YOU EITHER BUILD YOUR FARM SYSTEM OR YOU ACQUIRE THE TALENT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY…THEO AND THE RED SOX HAVE DONE BOTH, IT IS NOT AN EITHER/OR THING.
“The Twins have a dilemma. There is no longer any competition to sweeten the pot. The Red Sox can keep their take it or leave it offers on the table and the Twins either have to take a light deal for Santana or pass on it.” HOW ARE THEY IN A DILEMMA? THERE IS NO GUN TO THEIR HEAD THAT THEY HAVE TO DEAL NOW. HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY DON’T HAVE ANY OTHER OFFERS? THE RED SOX HAVE SAID THEY WANT SANTANA AND HAVE MADE A VERY GOOD OFFER FOR HIM, WHY WOULD THEY THEN OFFER A ‘LIGHT DEAL’ AS YOU PUT IT. TOTALLY ABSURD.
“While their offense will be great, the Yankees have better pitching than the Tigers at this time.
That deal hurts the Indians. It doesn’t hurt the Yankees.” BIAS, BIAS, BIAS, BIAS. HOW DOES THIS NOT HURT OUR YANKEES? ARE U NUTS? WHO WERE THE YANKEES COMPETING WITH IN 2007 FOR THE WC? YEP, THE DETRIOT TIGERS. GRANTED THEY FELL APART, BUT NOW THEY ARE HUGELY IMPROVED. THE YANKEES HAVE BETTER PITCHING, I GUESS I AGREE, BUT THE TWO STAFFS ARE VERY COMPARABLE… I THINK YOU COULD MAKE AN ARGUMENT EITHER WAY. ADDING EDGAR RENTERIA AND MIGUEL CABRERA TO THAT LINEUP HURTS THE YANKEES CHANCES OF MAKING THE PLAYOFFS. PERIOD.
Hank’s mouth had ZERO to do with anything here. WHAT?!? IF BIG FAT MOUTHED HANK ACTUALLY KEEPS HIS WORD HERE (UNLIKE THE AROD NEGOTIATIONS), THEN THE YANKS ARE OUT. HOW IS THAT HAVING ‘ZERO to do with anything here.’?? THE YANKEES OFFERED HUGHES TO THE TWINS, JUST NOT IN THE PACKAGE THAT THE TWINS WANTED… DON’T BE CONFUSED HERE: HANK’S IMPATIENCE HAS HINDERED THE PROCESS HERE, NOT HELPED.
Jeez, you usually see things through clear glasses, not the rose-colored ones you seem to be wearing this AM.
I would think that every team in teh AL is calling Smith and telling him if he makes that deal he is crazy, not only for the retirn package, but the fact that he may be setting up the Sawx for 4-5 years.
Vader, in a word: Yes.
Mike R., I saw him in about thirty games this year. He’s a third baseman, now, but plays short and NYY is talking about 2nd base. Think Wade Boggs with speed. He stole 35 bags and was caught about 5 times this year at Charleston. I think his best spot is 1st base, where the organization is thin. With a slight adjustment, thos 35 doubles can become about 15 more homers. Mattingly-type numbers. Mattingly’s highest home run number was 9. Piniella changed his swing just enough to get him to pull more often and lift.
SJ44, that’s true. Wonder if they’d go for a player to be named later and make it Snyder or Laird, when they can be traded in July?
I think the soxs will pull out, I heard a statement last night or was it this morning? from Theo, I can’t recall what he said, but I know when I heard it, it made me think he might pull out. Sorry I can’t give any kind of quote.
Hi Maverick,
I thought I read somewhere that Joe G’s been thinking about a 6-man rotation or with 2 guys (IPK and Moose?) rotating for the 5th spot at least from the start. Let me know if this is old news or I had misinterpreted things. I was assuming 15 wins for Hughes and 7 for Kennedy for a combined 22. And call me optimisstic, but to me that’s just in ’08, I won’t be surprised if Hughes and Kennedy win a combined 30 games in 2009.
I know those are win potentials vs Santana which is more of a sure thing. This is up to Yankees talent development staff to decide how much they trust what they have done and seen in Hughes and IPK. I think they are betting on the odds of certainty with this trade. As long as they don’t make their decision based largely on preventing Sox from having Santana I’m fine. I trust them as professionals, but to me a decision motivated by Sox will be an emotional one.
Vader,
I don’t think Hank has said anything that has hurt Cashman’s ability to do his job. Not a single thing.
Look at Hank’s off-season so far. He got everybody back. No small order.
Look at it another way. The Yankees signed the best catcher, backup catcher, closer, starting pitcher, and third baseman on the free agent market. Just because they were their own players doesn’t lessen the importance of the signings.
When folks rip on Hank, all they are doing is parroting on what they hear from somebody in the media, namely know nothings like Mike and the Mad Dog.
How has Hank’s comments hurt this deal? Cashman didn’t want to make the trade. Hank did. Who “won”? Cashman.
It hasn’t hurt Cashman from doing his job. He is given the autonomy to make baseball decisions. They made a baseball decision not to go any higher (in trade offers) to get Santana.
When you look at the Red Sox offer, its clear the Yankees made the right call in backing off. Their offer was superior to the Red Sox and it was rejected. In that situation, you can’t go any higher.
If the Red Sox offer was so great, how come the Twins haven’t accepted it? Its not the Red Sox are going to sweetened it at this point.
As far as Santana and his long term health, I think its impossible for anybody to make that call.
I read Klapisch today discussing how Santana’s style of pitching leads to less injury. He pitches the same way as Pedro and Pedro blew out his rotator cuff.
Pitchers get hurt. Its a fact of life. Its impossible for anybody to project a pitchers health over a 6-7 year period. That’s the ultimate crapshoot.
Remember, he pitches in a dome, so he doesn’t have to pitch on those brutal, cold April/May days in Minnesota.
All it takes is one injury on a cold April/May day in Boston or NY, and you are eating a ton of money for a while.
Fans don’t care about that, nor should they. GM’s and owners do because its their job.
It all goes into the pot when you decide whether or not to make this kind of financial commitment on a pitcher.
How is it possible that the Yankees’ have the only execs in baseball who can evaluate talent accurately?
Tell me that. All of you who are saying the Red Sux deal is crap. Tell me. The twins have no one in their organization that is as baseball saavy as SJ44? or Vader? or GreenBeret7? or PB in DC?
I think you get my point here.
Some of these execs and baseball people have been watching people like Lester, Hughes, Andy Miller since high school… what do most the people in here do? Read box scores? Compare stats? Watch the ML teams? Read baseballprospectus.com and espn.com?
Maybe some of you go to minor league games of the Yanks or whatever… but there comes a point in time when you have acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the Twins baseball people know something about the package Boston is offering that you just don’t know.
I’m saying if the basis of your opinion that thte Twins execs “will be run out of town” is that you personally can’t look at the deal on paper and make sense out of it, then chances are the problem is you’re working on incomplete information… the problem is more likely that than it is the deal itself.
ACCEPT YOURE A FAN AND NOT A BASEBALL EXEC.
Good post SJ, the Yankees have gotten everything they wanted this off season. And you’re right about people parroting those idiots who do sports, espically the ones in the morning. Every single morning Carton does a Hank impression, and the idiot who sits beside him laughs hysterically. I’m thinking this is sports talk? Its a stupid jock and some idiot who wishes he played sports attempting to be funny hosts, who sometimes talk sports.
“When folks rip on Hank, all they are doing is parroting on what they hear from somebody in the media, namely know nothings like Mike and the Mad Dog.”
I dont agree with this, IMO, people who rip Hank are, in most part, judgements they make independently of what Mike and the Mad Dog, or anyone here says. Its always an easy excuse to blame the media, but come one, Hank is a public persona and the public are smart enough to form the impression of someone based on how this person acts in public, not by what mike and mad dog say…
PB in DC, I’m not answering for anybody, but, just like Hank Steinbrenner saying that if Rodriguez opted out, NYY wasn’t going to chase him. He left it open for Rodriguez to come back, and Steinbrenner set certain guidelines, and was that the initial meetings took place without Boras. The same thing here. If Smith comes back to them, they’ll talk, but the package will change.
change as in downgraded.
If the deal was so great, how come the Twins haven’t accepted it? Its been on the table for two days and they haven’t said yes.
You want to carry on with rants, nobody is stopping you. Doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you.
Nobody is telling you how to think. You want to think like a fan, nobody is saying its wrong.
However, the people making the decisions DONT think like fans.
To better understand the reasons behind the decisions, thinking like a fan is not the way to go.
I don’t have a problem with Hank. I think everyone’s quick to jump on him for the public statements and bad judgment but overall I think he’s an asset to the Yankees. I mean, look at what’s happening now. The Pohland are one of the wealthiest baseball owners yet they are going to lose the best pitcher in baseball because they don’t want to pay for him. Say what you want about the Steinbrenners. At least they put money back into the team and take an active interest in how we do, not only what we make.
PB in DC
December 5th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Some of us even go to a lot of minor league games to watch. I live in Savannah, Georgia, so I see the Riverdogs about 8-10 in Savannah, but, I also live pretty close to Charleston and watch 10-20 a year, there. If the kids from the system are close, I go. I also go to Ft. Myers, FLA when the Tampa team plays because my brother has season tickets.
GreenBeret7, hey man I like the messages here, believe me I do. I think there is some real discourse on baseball and the yanks etc… but there are times when people get way, way, way ahead of themselves. They start speculating on things that they don’t have access to nearly enough information to be informed.
Take your last post about Smith coming back to the Yankees and then they’ll talk, but the package will change. How can you possibly say: 1. it will have to be smith who comes back to talk, 2. the yankees would talk at all at this point, 3. the package would change if they resumed talks.
How can you say any of that?
Personally, I think we’re better off debating the merits of the trade packages… rather than trying to predict what the execs are going to or not going to do.
But, debate the trade packages in the proper context: as fans admitting that the execs and baseball people probably know a thing or two about these players and how they fit into the overall, macro-level management of their team’s organization that we as outsiders couldn’t possibly know b/c we don’t have all the information.
http://www.bostonherald.com/sp.....id=1048908
I can’t believe this article. How can someone be a sports writer and produce such a biased and untrue piece of garbage. “To be as good as the Red Sox, the Yankees would need Santana” Are you serious?? You mean to be good enough to almost blow a 14.5 game lead in the division the Yanks need to get Santana??
Catherine, I agree with you on several points, but the reality is that sometimes the Steinbrenner impulsivity has led to bad decisions that made that payroll what it is. Also, while it is great to have an owner who cares, and will spend to make the team great, I do think their style turns off a lot some of the other teams in the league and does not do us a good service in negotiations.
There are people who read and (some) post in this blog everyday who are in the industry. Its one of the reasons why the blog has become so popular.
Everyone is a fan. Some, though have deeper connections to the industry and find the discussions here more interesting (on the good days) than just about any Yankee Blog in existance.
Its not unlike some of the blogs that discuss the movie industry. Some are loaded with industry people who feel a certain amount of freedom discussing their business in a free form forum.
I really like that idea. I had kinda discarded the 1B option because I didn’t see that typical 1B power from him, but I had never really thought about it from your perspective. He most definitely could be a Mattingly type first baseman. Good speed, plus defense, plus bat, decent power. Sounds great.
PB, there’s enough information floating on the internet, that if pieced together and when the same thing shows up more and more, you can make a decent guess on a lot of things…if you want to. If you get a chance, go see the kids in minor league ball. Go and watch scranton or a weekend trip to Trenton..you’ll love the play…the hustle of these kids.
Bryan,
Great article.. It is a must read for all Red Sox haters
SJ44, I’m not advocating thinking like a fan. Just the opposite, in fact. I’m saying you have to acknowlege your limitations as an outsider as the likely explanation of why a deal that you read about online that may not make sense to you rather than just writing off a deal as no good.
Nor do I think any of you are trying to tell me how to think. I’m saying YOU’RE A FAN… that is, unless you want to reveal some affiliation you have with a ball club? Formal training? Experience?
Even if you go to 40+ minor league games a year, YOU’RE A FAN. If you rely on Pete and people like pete for your information (as I do), then you’re a fan.
Certainly there is a huge spectrum of fans with a varying amount of acumen and knowledge… but that matters little because we’re all on the outskirts of the baseball world here… information gets passed through many, many mouths before it hits our ears, like it or not.
I don’t think I’ve gone on a rant once this morning. Take it for what you will.
Has anyone else heard anything about this deadline of last night that the Twins put on themselves? If so, where?
It doesn’t make any sense to me that they would do something like that. The winter meeting aren’t even over and the Angels just lost out on Cabrera and have just what the Twins want (ML ready pitching and a great 3B prospect). By setting this deadline, they would just hinder their chances of completing a trade. I find it hard to believe that they want to go into this season with Santana without an extension after what happened with Hunter. Right now is their best chance to get the best possible package. Why hurt those chances by imposing a deadline on themselves?
One of SJ’s points – that pitching is fragile, especially when so much is invested in a single guy – is pretty important to keep in mind here.
Cashman is not investing the entire Yankee future in Hughes – or even in Hughes + Joba + IPK
There’s a LOT of pitching prospects in the Yankee minor leagues – add in Horne, Marquez, McCutchen as guys almost ready… Kontos not far behind, and Betances, Brackman and McAllister down the road a ways.
Pen guys: Whelan, Robertson, Claggett
Add in pen guys coming back from injury: Sanchez, Melancon, Cox
You accumulate a ton of young talent, protect it from overuse and abuse, and you need just a couple of guys to blossom. You know some will blow up, and some will just not pan out.
Look at it this way (and this is just an example) – if Joba becomes an ace, Horne (say) becomes a #3, and Hughes stays a #4, you’ve got Wang at #2, and a bunch of guys (like Kennedy) competing for the 5 slot. The rest is gravy, trade chips, and pen arms.
Speaking of the pen, I suspect Marquez will be a big name this year out of the pen.
Bryan,
That article made me nauseus. “The Rolls Royce of baseball, the Red Sox.”
Sorry while I vomit
SJ, your post at 9:10am… I agree. I think this blog is great as blogs on baseball go. Just accept our limitations is all I’m saying.
I trust that if the Twins take the Red Sux deal, it was their best course of action… I don’t believe they’re out to screw the yankees (ie, not take a ‘better’ deal just b/c they’re out to get us).
Mike R., he only had 4 homers this year, but, the Sally League is a pitchers leagu with big parks. I watched him when he was in his 39 game hit streak. Some infield hits, but, doubles in the gaps. The sound Mattingly had. Not the explosive sound ofMantle, but, more like the crack of a bullwhip. He can really run. The other kid on the team is Seth Fortenbury. Plays a great outfield. He was the right fielder until Jackson moved to Tampa, then, he moved to center field. Power and speed, but, like O’Neill too many strikeouts, but, it’s only his 2nd year, but, he does walk and steals 25 bags. Think of O’Neill and you’ve got it…including temper.
Scooter, did you see where Cashman was thinking about Horne for the pen, later this season?
did joba win next? where’s the magazine cover?
http://www.espn.go.com/mag/
I do indeed find it amusing to read those select posters who seem willing to undergo every kind of intellectual contortion to rationalize the latest decision of Yankee management.
Were I a conspiracy-theorist I might even wonder whether the Yankees didn’t pay them to post here. (Instead, I think this President has so successfully convinced the nation that loyalty and dissent are mutually exclusive that it has permeated the entire culture.)
Yes, of course, Brian Cashman deserves his credit for persuading ownership of the importance of investing in the farm system.
However, his record, otherwise, is equivocal, at best, especially about the pitching rotation– It’s a record of error, miscalculation, and willful blindness that began with trading Ted Lilly for Jeff Weaver and continued through Kevin Brown, Javier Vasquez, Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, and Kei Igawa.
If Madden is right about the Yankees refusing to trade Hughes-Cabrera-Marquez and Hilligoss for Santana– and he often is because his sources inside the Yankees hierarchy are impeccable– than Cashman has only contributed another chapter to the foregoing woeful record.
By the way, for all you Cashman-idolaters, when the Yankees made an offer for the Old Unit, two minor league players Cashman offerred the Diamondbacks were named Robinson Cano and Chien-Ming Wang.
Ever heard of those guys? Fortunately, the Diamondbacks hadn’t.
Bryan,
That Bradford article should be required reading for this message board.
What a bias arse.
Things have really changed up there in boston… they think they’re hot s##t now, huh?
Joba is NEXT, Buster Olney wrote the article. Haven’t seen the cover, but Joba’s gonna be on it this week.
There seems to be some odd things with all that is happening, or rather not happening with the Twins offering up Santana. Currently ONLY the Red Sox are doing any talking to Smith.
Doesn’t that really puzzle you? It does me. The Yankees pulled out of negotiations because Smith kept moving the goalposts. He probably gave the Yankees the impression that Santana would be going to the Yankees if they changed from Kennedy to Hughes. Then the Twins went running to the RS to see what they would change (nothing BTW- unless you consider that they would put in Ellsbury and take out a ton of others while doing it something they were serious about)
Notice that the Angels have said they aren’t interested. This after they went through all that crap with the Marlins only to have it swing overnight in to that mega trade with the Tigers. Why?
If it was so bad about what Hank Steinbrenner said, then why is it everyone else seems to be treating Smith as though he has the plague? The Rangers talked a little, but nothing. The Angels “talked” but are not interested. Dodgers – nothing.
So with all that, I have to think that either all these other GMs think that Smith is the one who screwed the pooch – looking at the Yankees willing to trade Phil Hughes when they balked at Kennedy, and still the deal didn’t happen. That probably is sending the message that Smith isn’t really serious or that his asking price will be such that no one will pay. Maybe there’s a reason they had to accept draft picks for Hunter.
The other thing is maybe there is something about Santana that is scaring some of the GM’s away. While I am sure that Santana is still a hot commodity, maybe there is concern over his performance – the lack of using the slider, that makes giving up so many key players AND needing to work a contract out for long term are just not appealing.
If the Sox are not doing a deal with the Twins, given that they seemed to be the last ones standing, either they were not really serious or working with Smith is exactly as Hank figured it to be.
i think sj44 is right that smith overplayed his hand. he brought the yankees/ red sox competition to a boiling point and didn’t pull the trigger while the two managements were in the heat of the moment.
once things reached an impasse and it dragged on, buyers remorse started to sink in. the yankees backed off because of the possible downside of the deal. now the twins are probably realizing that their fans will have a stroke if all they get is lester and crisp as major league ready players. now the twins are having sellers remorse. when people get nervous, and there is the option of waiting, that’s usually what they do.
but like the tigers/marlins deal. things can happen fast. santana’s free agency is not going to go away, so yankee fans are not out of the wood yet as far as him going to the red sox.
it will be interesting to hear santana’s feelings about being on the verge of having a 120 million contract and then nothing happening. he does have some control over things. he can tell smith he won’t agree to a contract or trade in season which limits smith’s options and may force his hand.
right now , i’m just happy to wake up this morning and see that he hasn’t gone to the red sox in a lop sided deal.