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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Rumors fly but facts are few

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 04, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

“Trust none of what you hear. And less of what you see. This is what will be, this is what will be.”

Those are lyrics to the Bruce Springsteen song Magic and they should be the anthem of the Winter Meetings.

In the case of the Yankees vs. the Red Sox, there is no verdict. Rumors are flying, many of them imaginary.

The Red Sox let it leak that that Minnesota requested the medical records of Jon Lester. That could be an indication that something is close or merely another clumsy method to try and shake another prospect out of Brian Cashman.

Good luck with that. Brian Cashman was the picture of cool in his suite yesterday, sitting back in a chair with white adidas kicks, jeans and a sweatshirt. He has lasted 11 years in this job, about 10 more than anybody expected when he started. What’s the worse that can happen?

If Minnesota is willing to trade the great Johan Santana for a replacement level center fielder and three prospects, good for them. If Boston is willing to sink another $100 million into a pitcher, good for them as well.

If the Yankees do nothing whatsoever, they bring back the team that was the best in baseball for the final four months of the season. Only iith more innings out of Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes.

The bullpen needs work (Cashman can’t actually have that much faith in Krazy Kyle, can he?) and it would be nice to have an actual first baseman instead of 1,765 candidates. But those are issues that can he addressed.

As Cashman said yesterday, Alan Horne, Steven White and Jeff Marquez could be converted to the bullpen just like Chamberlain was. Better to try that trio than to sink $4 million a year into the likes of LaTroy Hawkins.

So relax a little. Take a cue from your GM, the worst than can happen is that the Yankees will be a heck of a team.

 
 

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289 Responses to “Rumors fly but facts are few”

  1. KG86 December 4th, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    Agreed Pete.

  2. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    Pete, we can only hope.

  3. Rockin' Rich December 4th, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    It’s a chess game, to be sure. Thanks for the update, Peter.

  4. Rockin' Rich December 4th, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    One other thing: I’d be shocked if Krazy Kyle wasn’t traded before the season starts, so why should C-Money badmouth him?

  5. Jon December 4th, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    Thanks for the voice of reason, Pete. Another example of why your blog is the best in the business.

  6. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    raymagnetic,

    the obligatory music insult! fantastic!

    1. maybe santana will be worse at fenway. he’s still the best pitcher in the game and a beckett-santana rotation is tough to beat. his ERA at fenway is based on 15 innings. hardly enough to make a case that he’ll be worse there.

    2. the umpires weren’t stopping the game because of the midges. it’s not up to torre to “pull the team off the field.” he can plead his case to the umps but the call is theirs, not his. nice try, though. i love how the blame comes back to torre.

    3. certainly money and the tradition of winning don’t help. but if you think it’s got nothing to do with loudmouth ownership, you’re insane.

    4. at no point did i say that the twins request of hughes/cabrera/kennedy or the package including horne and jackson was reasonable and the yankees should have caved. i’ll repeat that, AT NO POINT did i say that. i said they should include hughes, they did. after that, i made no comment about a need to meet the twins demands. i made one post saying that i, personally, would have thrown horne in but AT NO POINT did i criticize cashman for refusing to cave.

    and how, exactly, do the yankees win the war if boston gets to keep their best prospects AND gets johan santana? how is that the yankees winning the war?

  7. rbj December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    “or merely another clumsy method to try and shake another prospect out of Brian Cashman”

    That’s my vote. Theo would love to help the Twinkies out by making the Yankees give up another prospect. The Yankees’ offer is already better than the RS, don’t throw in both Hughes & IPK along with Melky.

  8. LouG December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    Hey, we are relaxed.
    The worst that could happen is that we break up the holy trinity.
    KEEP THE KIDS.

  9. Lardin December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    Thanks Peter for speaking the truth. The Yankees in my opinion would be much better off securing the bullpen. See what the Twins want for Nathan, See what Oakland wants for street. A strong bullpen, combined with our offense should be better than last year..

  10. mary ellen December 4th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

    Pete, as always you are the voice of reason – one thing though, is it just me or are the players the Red Sox are offering for Santana less than what the Yankees were willing to part with? Why would the Twins want to stick it to the Yankees? Something doesn’t seem quite right.

  11. EY December 4th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

    Agreed. Everyone kept saying “Yankees brought back the same team.” The “same team” was the best team in baseball leading up to the post-season.

    Fix the bullpen. We don’t need anymore starting pitching because we’ll have Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy ready next year. Hell, Moose might “surprisingly” come back in shape, who knows.

    If Twins are stupid enough to think Lester can replace Santana, good for them. Good luck with that. We’ll keep the big three and have three dominating starters price controlled for many years to come.

  12. Casey from Oakland December 4th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

    I’d LOVE to have Santana, but I’d LOVE to keep Hughes and Kennedy too. Those 2 are legit pitchers and if the Twins do want to give up Santana for what the Sox are offering then fine… We all know that by buying players is not a sure fire way to win championships… We have great talent that can be a force for us for years to come…

  13. CB December 4th, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    The twins are not going to make that deal.

    They can’t do it and save face unless they get both ellsbury and lester.

    This whole medical records thing is a joke.

    Of course the twins put in that request – his medical records will stretch to hundred of pages and will require dozens of hours of evaluation by oncologists.

    They are doing this to get the yankees to panic. Doesn’t look like that is going to happen

    The yankees are going about this the right way.

  14. SAndMan December 4th, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    They still need to be better then last year.If anybody notice it was our starting pitching not bullpen that was bad last year in the regular and post season.Guess it’s Haren because they won’t go into the season with three rookies.

  15. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    Sweeney on M&MD is reporting that Yanks feel Santana is going to Boston.

  16. Uncle Vito December 4th, 2007 at 1:25 pm

    kasey…once again you show your @$$, congrats.

    Pete…agreed, Hawkins is NOT Yankee material, stick with the kids.

    Don’t sweat the small stuff. Kasey’s opinion duly noted and tossed in the trash where is belongs,,,the Yankees are going to strong in 2008, 2009 AND 2010 and we will give the Sux all they can handle…..over and OUT !

  17. Drew M December 4th, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    Hello all, hello Pete-

    Is it possible that, if Minnesota wants to make a big deal even bigger, the Yanks could add some more prospects and get Joe Nathan in return? I heard last week that he may be shopped. Also, may I say, all praise to the Cash-Man. I think he is so cool because he is confident in the young arms that will be coming up in 2008 and 2009 if he makes the deal or not. Also, how good is Austin Jackson? What’s his ETA to the majors? And finally, why is trading Melky seen as a given and not much of a loss? He is young, improving and solid defensively. I was lambasted here for commenting about his close friendship with Robby Cano and the positive impact their relationship and energy have on the team, but I think that should not be forgotten. Thanks for reading my 2 cents; go Yanks (save Phil Hughes!)

  18. Ranting Guy December 4th, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    It’s a win in that they Yanks didn’t give up the whole farm when the Twins were willing to take less from elsewhere.

  19. Awolf1 December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Amen Pete!

    I admit, I can’t stop refreshing this website as well as mlbtraderumors.com hoping to get the latest news on Johan, but I have reached my limit. I almost don’t even want Johan anymore, Haren either. The guy I want (unrealistically albeit) is Bedard. I also would almost rather wait for CC and hope to sign him as a FA.

    We made a great offer and that’s that. If the Sox get him for less, nothing we can do. We do have a sick offensive lineup and many young MLB ready players, all we need is some consistency in the pen and we should be set.

  20. YankeeInBoston December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Agreed, I think everyone is getting carried away with the whole Santana trade. The Boston news media is already proclaiming that the trade is done, and that the Sox will win the next 20 World Series, and finally put the whole rivalry to bed.

  21. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Being a charter member of the “Get Santana” Fan Club and someone who knows a bit about the Yankees Farm System, I agree with Pete.

    I don’t get fleeced by the Twins. If that means he goes to Boston, so be it.

    Its tough enough to give up Hughes, which should have been the clincher in the deal.

    However, when Smith continues to ask for more and more, at some point, you just have to pass.

    Sweeney Murti on the FAN just reported the Yankees believe he is going to Boston.

  22. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Yeah man all will be well, we have a heck of a team. When merely a month ago it seemed no one would be back, everyones back and back with a young, hungry, motivated manager.

  23. jimmy1138 December 4th, 2007 at 1:28 pm

    We got to face it: the Yanks could be off much worse – without A-Rod, Posada, Rivera and Pettitte.

  24. Yankee Fan in Boston December 4th, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    This Johan Santana trade is a win/win or lose/lose situation for me. If we get Johan, we lose Hughes. If we don’t get Johan, we don’t lose Hughes! I really don’t know if I’m for or against the trade.

  25. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    kasey,

    Please don’t be offended, but did you know it’s customary netiquette to put ‘Re-post’ when you copy and paste a post from another thread?

  26. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    Peter -

    Have they kicked the tires on Xavier Nady for 1B? He puts up about .800 OPS and can play the corner OF positions as well. Less power than Shelley, but a more well-rounded hitter.

    And maybe Kielty to split time with all three OFers if Melky gets moved?

  27. PittsburghYankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    A voice of reason.

    Twins can’t do that deal and come to their fans with a straight face.

    One guy from the Mayo clinic in Rochester will get on TV and talk about Lester’s cancer, and that will be it for Bill Smith.

    Both sides have to feel pain for a deal like this. I think the Twins ask for Bucholtz, Ellsbury, and Lowrie, and see what happens. That is more in line with the Yankees’ offer.

    Worse case: same team as last year, with younger pitching with a great upside.

  28. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    Gotta agree with Pete this time. Time to stop fighting over Santana and be true Yankee fans again (i.e. look forward to rooting for whatever roster we end up with, as, no matter what happens, it’s still bound to be a pretty decent club).

  29. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    The voice of reason!!

    And this is not the same team. It is a better team. We won’t have American Idle starting the first game of the season. Our starting rotation is better now than it was last year. I have no doubt we can handle the soxs even with Santana in the rotation. The only question is will other teams.

  30. Yankee Jay December 4th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    Good job Pete. I wholeheartedly agree. Worst case – really good team, 3 young stud starters (4 including Wang), and an extra $150 million to spend in the next few years.

  31. Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    I don’t think that you know what replacement level means, because Coco Crisp is definitely not a replacement level center fielder.

  32. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    “Agreed. Everyone kept saying “Yankees brought back the same team.” The “same team” was the best team in baseball leading up to the post-season.”

    Exactly. And our young guys will have a full season under their belt unlike this year. If the Yankees can improve their bullpen, whether it be using guys they already have, or acquiring people, I think they will be just fine next year.

  33. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:32 pm

    Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level” means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.

  34. JBRO December 4th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Jeters running the track at my school again…

  35. Yankee Sean December 4th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    well said pete

  36. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    People seem to be ignoring the fact that Santana has a horrible ERA at Fenway (not saying he is going to have a bad year, but probably not as dominant as he was at Minnesota), and also Schilling/Wakefield arent getting any younger. I’m not sold on Matsuzaka; don’t really think he’s as good as advertised.

  37. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    “Jeters running the track at my school again…”

    Which supermodel is he chasing this time? HA!!!

  38. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    JBRO,

    The million-dollar question is, “Who’s he running with?”

  39. rb15 December 4th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

    JBRO, go ask him what he thinks of all this and then report back. Go! :)

  40. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    Mike,

    Small sample size, bad start rookie year, that horse has been beaten 10x over.

  41. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    “Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level” means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.”

    No. It means you can get his production from a AAAA type of player. Which you can’t. He’s not a star, but he’s certainly not replacement level.

  42. casual33 December 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    I don’t see how that wouldnt be an awesome deal for the sox. Who cares if they sink another 100 mil into a cy young pitcher for relatively nothing? Sounds perfect to me if i were a sox fan. Of course, I don’t think it will happen with these particular players but I cant see why we should brush it off if minny is dumb enough to do it. Money means practically nothing to fans of big market teams like ny and bos. We dont care what you spend, as long as ticket prices dont skyrocket.

  43. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    If the Twins wouldn’t capitulate the minute Hughes was on the table, they were never gonna make a deal with the Yanks. I hope they enjoy their craptastic next several years.

  44. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    If nothing else, we all got an education in MLB trades. They’re not all this crazy, because usually it’s two teams that want to make a deal or they wouldn’t be talking in the first place. This one was more like a hostile take over, complete with white knights and poison pills.

    In any event, time to move on. Trades do not win the WS.

  45. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    JBRO,

    what high school is this?

  46. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    More Rob Neyer:

    Mark (Minnesota): Maybe I’m stupid, but I don’t see the fuss over Ellsbury. He’s 24 years old and this year in the minors in 463 ABs he had only 2 HRs, 24 2Bs and 7 3Bs. I see him as a future leadoff hitter with good speed and little power, perhaps like a Kenny Lofton. How is that the centerpiece of a Santana deal? We should get more for Johan – like a potential #1 starter!

    Rob Neyer: (1:15 PM ET ) You’re not stupid, Mark. I might have been over-exuberant a few moments ago, as I also downplayed Ellsbury’s potential a few months ago. He’s benefiting from a halo effect, due to his performance in October. But he does not project as a big star.

    I found that very interesting.

  47. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    “this deal isn’t happening…”

    well, if the posts citing murti are right, the yankees tend to disagree with you all.

    if the yankees think the boston deal is happening, i’m inclined to defer to them.

    i guess the yankees do “win” in that they didn’t get fleeced by the twins. cashman stood his ground, and that’s fine.

    here’s how the red sox win. they ALSO didn’t get fleeced by the twins, and they added the best pitcher in baseball to a team that won the world series last year.

    so, in terms of “winning,” i guess it’s all relative. but, when you’re the yankees and all you have to show for this vaunted offense is a couple of first-round exits the last two years, i guess you take “wins” where you can get them.

  48. Awolf1 December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    Not that I care, but who is gonna play center for the sox if they deal crisp? Ellsbury?

  49. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Thank goodness GOTWINS has found this thread yet.

  50. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    His isoP in AAA sort of indicates he’ll never touch the Granderson/Sizemore tier of CFs.

  51. Brent December 4th, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    Pete,

    I know that the Yankees can use any of those three guys (Marquez, White, Horne) as a converted reliever, but what about Ross Ohlendorf? He showed promise late last season…is he going to be converted back into a starter, or is he possibly in the mix as well?

  52. rbizzler December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    Kasey, thanks for the repost – it was excellent to have to look at that nay saying garbage twice!

    In no instance should the Yankees panic and trade away the farm. If the Twins are really pissed enough at Hank (which I doubt) and they want to take an inferior deal, so be it. That is out of the Yanks control.

    The reality of the situation is that the package the Yanks are offering is superior. I don’t care about Lowrie as he projects decently with the bat, but will be brutal with the glove. I thought the Twins valued defense. And Lester? Have fun watching him walk the park and get lifted after the fifth.

    That’s great value for the guy you all refer to as ‘the best pitcher in baseball.’ Sure.

  53. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    As others have said the Twins never wanted to make a deal with the Yankees. OTherwise after they fullfilled their request of adding Hughes, that would have sealed it. Instead they continue to ask for more prospects. I still don’t understand how they look to be taking such a crap package from the soxs.

  54. Nick in SF December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    My question (revisiting a tired topic from yesterday) is, if the Red Sox complete this deal for Santana, will we hear another word from Peter Gammons about the “need” to re-do Beckett’s contract?

    I guess this is a question more about the vacuity/perfidy of Peter Gammons than anything else Hopefully the question will be moot.

  55. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    kasey – Stop obsessing over Boston. That’s what Boston fans are famous for doing (with the Yanks). Don’t be like them.

  56. TwinsfaninNY December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    1. Santana does not have “awful ERA” at Fenway. that’s based on two starts six years ago…before he became the pitcher he now is. cheez.

    2. Boston is upping their offer of Lester, Crisp, Lowrie (the blue chip in this deal) and Masterson. probably another one of their top prospects. (and that group, cause of Lowrie and Masterson, beats the Yankees best offer)

    3. I’d be highly surprised if Crisp stays in MN…probably being packaged with Nathan….

  57. yankee bliss December 4th, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    so what does jetes run?? laps, wind sprints?

    you gotta hustle to first to get to third on one hit with those supermodels…

  58. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    Brent I think it is already a given that Ross will be competing for a spot in the pen. I think Cash was naming other players who would be converted.

  59. The Fallen Phoenix December 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    Crisp is probably underrated by a lot of people because he has an average center field bat; Crisp is, by most metrics, one of the best defensive center fielders in the game, and that’s certainly well-above replacement-level for a center fielder.

    You can debate whether he’s worth the money he’s being paid, but he’s not the piece of crap a lot of people think he is.

    That said, I still try to get Ellsbury in addition to Lester if I’m the Twins. Crisp has no further upside (aside from breaking out offensively, which doesn’t seem likely at his age), whereas Ellsbury is one of the better young outfielders in the game.

  60. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    Brent
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
    Pete,

    I know that the Yankees can use any of those three guys (Marquez, White, Horne) as a converted reliever, but what about Ross Ohlendorf? He showed promise late last season…is he going to be converted back into a starter, or is he possibly in the mix as well?

    Ross is staying in the bullpen. There are no plans to switch him back.

  61. CaptainsCorner December 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    How is Smith going to explain to his fans we traded Santana for….4, B to C prospects a bunch of no bodies. Don’t you need 1, #1 prospect or atleast a very good pitcher since Garza and Santana are going to be gone. What happened to Smiths line “I need 3 impact players for him”…haha. I guess Hughes is now garbage.

  62. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    perfidy?

    From Dictionary.com

    per·fi·dy /ˈpÉœrfɪdi/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[pur-fi-dee] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun, plural -dies.
    1. deliberate breach of faith or trust; faithlessness; treachery: perfidy that goes unpunished.
    2. an act or instance of faithlessness or treachery.
    [Origin: 1585–95;

  63. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    Don’t the yanks have Humberto Sanchez healthy this year? If I’m not mistaken, he was basically the main component of the Sheffield deal, and based on varying accounts at the time, projected to be a pitcher in the CC Sebathia mold (and NO. I’m not comparing talent, CC is obviously far better), but Many projected him as a potential heir apparent to MO. Could he set-up? or if not set-up, maybe be useful in the pen?

  64. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    Main thing to remember that no matter what happens we will still be competitive. We got the best 3B, C, SP, RP free agents out there. We have 3 really good young pitchers who’ve already been initiated. Just tweak (o.k. build) the bullpen and you will have a good team. We finished two games behind Boston and had the second best record in all of baseball. No, it did not end how would have liked, but pressure got to the team in the post season more than anything.

    We have a new manager and the team will have a little bounce in their step.

    Out with the old, in with the new. Perfect timing with the new stadium set to open.

    And that should’ve been “Thank goodness GOTWINS has NOT found this thread yet. Although by the time I finish typing, he probably would’ve.

  65. MarkK December 4th, 2007 at 1:43 pm

    Same team as last year? Not quite. Remember, the pitching staff will be greatly improved.

    What was the rotation at the start of last season? If I recall, it included Carl Pavano — which is fine by me — but then he, believe it or not, GOT HURT! He strained a ligament in his right elbow after two starts.

  66. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    Ike, I think that was a nice way of saying Humberto likes to eat.

  67. Kill-Schill(ing) December 4th, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    I think everyone is conveniently overlooking how devastating a Santana trade to Boston could prove for the following reasons:

    1) The Yankees have to win NOW. Their positions players are old, and they have very few position players with major league talent in their farm system to replace them. And the few they do are year away from major-league readiness. Austin Jackson is at least a year away and perhaps, two years away. Tabata is 19 and perhaps, 2 to 3 years away

    Meanwhile, on the major league roster, their youngest starter apart from Cano and Melky, the youngest starter is 32. The outfield consists of players 33 and older and in decline.

    2) However much promise Hughes, Joba, and IPK show as starters, the Yankees aren’t going to let any one of them throw over 175 innings. That means that Mussina or Igawa has to contribute 100 innings or more.

    3) With Santana, the Red Sox lock up the AL East for the forseeable future, leaving the Yankees only entry into the playoffs the Wild Card through the remainder of Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte’s, and Jorge Posada’s career.

    4) The Red Sox get to retain BOTH Ellsbury and Buchholz, the cornerstones of their future.

  68. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    “No. It means you can get his production from a AAAA type of player. Which you can’t. He’s not a star, but he’s certainly not replacement level.”

    It’s defined as 80% of the league-average offensive production, while providing good defense. Crisp is above average in terms of range at the position, sure. He’s also below average offensively, but not at 80%.

    He was, for Boston, league average at best in terms of OPS.

  69. The Fallen Phoenix December 4th, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    I don’t think Sanchez is going to be healthy right off the bat–you’ll probably see him back in the minors (either AA or AAA) around mid-season, and the Yankees will probably allow him to build his strength back and find his stuff again. It’s not totally inconceivable to see Sanchez playing a factor come September, but I personally think he’s still a year away, whether he ends up in the bullpen or not.

  70. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Lowrie and Masterson are the second coming, eh? The grand delusion continues…

    It’s bad enough that Bill Smith thinks he’s getting future HOFers from the Sox in exchange for Santana. Now their fans are believing the same BS.

    Best of luck watching your team swirl down the toilet over the next few years. Maybe you can trade Joe Nathan straight up for J.D. Drew next. Haven’t you heard, Drew is the modern-day Ted Williams? You guys should really nab him, too…

  71. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    1. they’re not going to “re-do” beckett’s contract. as many have said, this isn’t football. in all likelihood, they’ll tell beckett that he’ll be taken care of when his contract runs out, or they’ll make a strong effort to sign him to a big extension. the fact that he’s now in a position to win the next four world series probably appeals to beckett, as well.

    2. once again, i never said the yankees SHOULD trade away the farm. i said they ought to include hughes if it gets the deal done. they did, it didn’t. at that point, their choice to set a deadline was shrewd business. hank’s choice to announce it was not.

    3. they’ll go after haren hard after losing out on santana. you may still need to prepare your goodbye kleenex box for hughes and cabrera.

    4. SJ44 – a few days ago you were saying if boston gets santana the yankees should prepare themselves to start the season eight games back. now you’ll “take your chances” with these yankees. pettitte’s return is that big a difference maker, huh? i sure hope so.

  72. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Thank goodness GOTWINS has found this thread yet.

    haha
    stupid yankee fans..

  73. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    it is impossible to talk baseball with you people

  74. bskul December 4th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    this is such a load of BS. How are the twins going to trade santana to the sox for lester, crisp and some other prospects? THEY AREN’T EVEN GETTING BUCHOLZ OR ELLSBURY! Yankees offer is way better and the twins are beyond stupid. absolute steal for boston, and they’re going to win the world series once again. unbelievable.

  75. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Kill-Schill(ing):

    I love you, man. But come back in from the ledge.

  76. XXX December 4th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Then why don’t you go find a Twins blog and do it there.

  77. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Masterson isn’t that good. Don’t drink the Kool Aid. I watched Masterson pitch 4 times this past season. Ok, not great. Not an elite prospect by any means. The Yankees have 6 arms in their system better than Masterson.

    Lowrie is a solid prospect. Crisp? Ridiculous to consider him something special. There are defensive CF (which is all he is) available for less than 4 million per year.

    Lester? They already have Liriano from the left side. They don’t have a power arm from the right side. That could have been Hughes.

    If that’s what the Twins want to settle for, that’s on them.

    I don’t give up my entire farm system (if I’m Cashman) for Santana.

    Great pitcher but, NOBODY is worth that.

    The added benefit. We no longer have to hear Theo and Lucchino whine about money and how they can’t be a “Uber team, like the Yankees”, everytime a deal takes place.

    The Red Sox whining is all over after this deal.

    Until the rules change, you still have to compete on the field.

    Does it make them more formidable? Absolutely. Does it mean the Yankees should just fold up shop? Absolutely not.

  78. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:46 pm

    Ike I heard a few months ago that he was throwing off flat ground. I would assume by now he is throwing off a mound. We might see him some time the middle of the season.

  79. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    If I had 20 unused cars sitting in my backyard, I would still not donate one to 1-877 Kars for Kids.

  80. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Kill Schilling. You have hit it right now the head. Its cock eyed optimism. The Red Sox have secured a spot in the post season next year already ( if this rumor is true)

  81. sunny615 December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    kasey
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
    “this deal isn’t happening…”

    well, if the posts citing murti are right, the yankees tend to disagree with you all.

    if the yankees think the boston deal is happening, i’m inclined to defer to them.

    i guess the yankees do “win” in that they didn’t get fleeced by the twins. cashman stood his ground, and that’s fine.

    here’s how the red sox win. they ALSO didn’t get fleeced by the twins, and they added the best pitcher in baseball to a team that won the world series last year.

    so, in terms of “winning,” i guess it’s all relative. but, when you’re the yankees and all you have to show for this vaunted offense is a couple of first-round exits the last two years, i guess you take “wins” where you can get them.
    ——————
    your tone seems to indicate that you blame the yankees for boston getting santana – but what I want to know is what you think Cash could have done differently to alter the outcome? Me, personally, I think Bill Smith is a retard for making this deal.

  82. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Pete, stop sounding so sensible before Kasey’s let’s his wrath out on you. Anyway from the last thread last thread.

    raymagnetic,

    the obligatory music insult! fantastic! Kasey, I never insulted your music as I’ve never heard it. I said I would HATE to listen to it if it’s as jaded as you are.

    1. maybe santana will be worse at fenway. he’s still the best pitcher in the game and a beckett-santana rotation is tough to beat. his ERA at fenway is based on 15 innings. hardly enough to make a case that he’ll be worse there.

    I never stated anything about Santana’s ERA at Fenway. What I said was that most pitchers pitch worse in Fenway which is true. Look at the Red Sox’ pitcher’s ERA’s historically at Fenway then get back to me.

    2. the umpires weren’t stopping the game because of the midges. it’s not up to torre to “pull the team off the field.” he can plead his case to the umps but the call is theirs, not his. nice try, though. i love how the blame comes back to torre.

    Torre could have pulled his team off the field and several players said they would have walked off the field if it were them pitching. I guess they also don’t know the rules either.

    3. certainly money and the tradition of winning don’t help. but if you think it’s got nothing to do with loudmouth ownership, you’re insane.

    So are you saying that businesses would deliberately do a bad deal just to screw another business owner? This makes a lot of sense. That would be like Intel selling their chips to Microsoft for 50 cents on the dollar to screw Apple. Does that make sense to you?

    4. at no point did i say that the twins request of hughes/cabrera/kennedy or the package including horne and jackson was reasonable and the yankees should have caved. i’ll repeat that, AT NO POINT did i say that. i said they should include hughes, they did. after that, i made no comment about a need to meet the twins demands. i made one post saying that i, personally, would have thrown horne in but AT NO POINT did i criticize cashman for refusing to cave.

    and how, exactly, do the yankees win the war if boston gets to keep their best prospects AND gets johan santana? how is that the yankees winning the war?

    So what do you suppose Cashman should have done or should do?

    Yankees win the war by keeping all of their prospects and signing CC Sabathia or someone else next year.

    In 2009 Shilling will be gone. Wakefield will be Wakefield. Timlin will be gone. Lugo will be Lugo. And the sox will have traded away their replacements in Masterson/Lester/Lowrie and will have to pay more money to replace them.

  83. Ranting Guy December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    NY finished 2 games back last year with a bunch of games being started by call-up / fill in guys who really weren’t ready yet, and little bullpen. And significant slumps by a few key of their bats.

    Starting the season with six starters who have legit experience and/or potential feels better to me than sending Carl Pavano out on opening day, starting a record number of rookie pitchers and having to leave what amounted to a AAA pitcher in a game long enough to have 4 consecutive HR knocked of him (in Fenway) because there’s nobody else good enough, ready enough, or bullpen-worthy enough to be in there in the first place or come in to bail him out.

    Bullpen is a big point everyone’s making. Good point. Especially if Billy Beane wants as much for Haren as Minny wanted for Santana. Prospects besides the big 3 for Natahan or any number of guys who don’t have several seasons with 4+ERAs littering the back of their baseball card even if they have a ‘live arm’ like Kyle Farnsworth did.

    These are two of the general reasons (SP/RP) why NY failed in the playoffs too. What NY doesn’t gain in the rotation this winter with a Santana or Haren type starter, they need to gain in the bullpen. Definitely one or the other if not both. Gaining an ace would be great but with Pettitte coming back, keeping the big 3 intact is not as bad a thing as it would have been.

    But please … no more Clemens redux. :)

  84. ab71 December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Great post Peter, good work taking us off the ledge!

  85. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Good gotwins, go and talk baseball with another twins fan, that is if you can find one.

  86. Ben(I'm happy Hughes will stay) December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Thanks for the voice of reason, Pete. Another example of why your blog is the best in the business.

  87. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    I feel like I could have gotten this deal done…!

  88. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    GOTWINS,

    So you say stupid Yankee fans and then you expect us to talk baseball with you?

  89. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    the red sox win this deal big time – get an ace, don’t give up anything that hurts to give up. the yankees lose only from a perspective that their main rival just added a second ace, whereas they yankees have two fewer than that. other than that, i respect their stance, and i trust that they know what they are doing. i would have included jackson or horne, but that’s just me.

    the loser in this deal is the twins. they are about to give up the best pitcher in the game for a package that, if i were a twins fan, would not be palatable at all. the fact that only red sox fans think the package is appropriate for santana gives you a sense that the deal is one sided.

    in a negotiation, both sides should be a little unhappy with the result. that’s how you know its a fair result.

    because red sox fans are so magnanimous about the quality of the package they gave up is an indication they didn’t give up squat.

  90. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    kill-schill(ing)

    take that negative garbage elsewhere. girardi is going to lead this team to victory behind hughes’ 15 wins and chamberlain’s 17. kennedy will win 14, pettitte’s elbow will hold up all year long again and wang will suddenly figure out how to pitch on turf and in october.

    nothin’ to worry about. we’ll all take our chances with one pseudo-ace, pettitte, and three rookies.

    besides, santana won’t sign with boston because it’s a racist city. and if he does, he’ll suddenly transform from the best pitcher of his generation to a mediocre lefty because of fenway.

    everything’s gonna be juuuuuust fine.

  91. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    Mister Delaware…basically, yeah.

    Maybe Humberto could be a Joba type call up in Sept? Isn’t he supposed to have power type stuff. Maybe I’m way off.

  92. ugayank December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    I don’t see the point in offering the same deal to the A’s for Haren. He’s not as good, why should he warrant the same deal? I would rather see the Yankees do nothing with the rotation and PLEASE get some bullpen.

  93. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    You’re not talking baseball, you’re flinging insults.

    REPOST:

    mel
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
    GOTWINS,

    Better see the psychiatrist about that passive-agreessive disorder you have there. It’s always the same. “I came here to talk about baseball” escalates into “STFU”.

    So why do you come here when you know that your comments will bring heated replies? Because you want to tussle. If you want someone to agree with you that Liriano is better than Hughes you need to go somewhere else. Because even though it may be true, you’re not finding that here.

    ray from Boston is the only one who has come in here and had civil discussions and even he tends to escalate sometimes, but he remembers that respect is a two-way street.

    And I can’t believe I’m giving you a lecture like god-damn child.

  94. Rafael December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    My problem with this RS deal is that Twins aren’t even even demanding only the best from the Sox. (Bucholz or Ellsbury) All I’m hearing is Lester as the centerpiece…

  95. JBRO December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    FLAM,

    Its University of Tampa, its like 3 miles from Legends….

  96. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    GOTWINS!
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
    it is impossible to talk baseball with you people

    I assume you are not searching for baseball conversation then, because if you were you would have searched elsewhere.

  97. coney12 December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.

  98. Rob December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.

  99. Scooter December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

    Hey Kasey

    Glad you’re back posting on here. How’s the music scene treating you?

    Look – there’s no doubt that a guy like Santana strengthens ANY team. It’s hard to swallow right now. If we revisit all this in a year, I’m hopeful that we see it was the right thing to do from the Yankee viewpoint.

    I don’t think you can build a new Dynasty by reacting to what the Red Sox do.

    There’s a couple of things you can do – you can use Yankee resources to build one of the top farm systems in MLB – using the draft and international free agents.

    The Yankees have done a fantastic job retooling their system in a short time. We might be a year behind where the Sox are in terms of position players; and we’re way ahead as far as pitching prospects.

    You can also retool/rebuild while contending.

    Remember – what Dynasty means is the ability to contend more or less indefinitely, without having to spend a fortune on free agents, and without having to mortgage the future

    2008 will be a transition year for the rotation and the pen. And if Tabata and/or Jackson continue their development, 2009 might mark a transition in the Yankee outfield.

    It’s exciting stuff – whatever the outcome. It’s also a chance to root for an underdog, and root for our own kids. That’s pretty good stuff, too

  100. erikp December 4th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    Pete… can you block this guy somehow?

  101. Blargh December 4th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    So…different topic: Anybody know where I can check out rough estimates of teams’ payrolls? I’m reading John Donovan’s article on the Royals (the Royals!) trying to get more competitive with their free agent signings. I saw the figure of ~57 million at the start of 2007, so I wanted to see how that compared to other teams.

  102. Doreen December 4th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

    A) I’m not ready to concede the 2008 season to anyone, not even the Red Sox.

    B) You don’t make a deal to play keep-away. For the Yankees to get Santana, they were being asked to give up players that actually meant something to them. For whatever reason, the Red Sox are not in the same position. I will not jump on the “the Yankees were out-negotiated” bandwagon.

  103. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Rob
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
    Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.

    If the elephant stepped ‘over’ the bunny, wouldn’t the bunny not be crushed?

  104. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Go to espn, mlb, and teams, there should be a tab for salaries.

  105. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    The Twins aren’t demanding our two most valuable young players (Chamberlain and Cano). Can’t really ignore that. I share the opinion that our #3 slots above theirs but its not like they want our #1 versus Boston’s junk.

  106. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm

    GOTWINS,

    So you say stupid Yankee fans and then you expect us to talk baseball with you?

    nope, when i first got on this blog i tried talking baseball.
    but after one or two posts, simple questions like what do you guys think will happen..
    yankee fans started telling me to get outta here . this is a yankee post..
    no, i dont want to talk baseball no more..
    you fans dont know anything about baseball, neither does your management..

    i bet if the yankees would spend $70-$80mil..
    they would be the laughing stock of baseball.

    if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..

    i mean.. you guys have showed you dont win when you spend money.. and we showed we dont win when we dont spend money..

  107. JBRO December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    He was just with a trainer i think, i didn’t want to stick around too long cause I met him a couple weeks ago at PF Changs, so I dont want him to think im a stalker.

  108. Ray December 4th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    Well, Lefthanded Pitchers do not fair well in Boston as a rule throughout the ages because of the Green Monster, not unlike a RH pitcher has a bit of a disadvantage in Yankee Stadium. Santana is special though and of course he would continue to be dangerous in Yankee Stadium for or against the Yankees.

    The most important part is how will Santana affect the bullpen or other team players with a chunk of salary tossed his way. I believe it would affect the Yankees less than Boston.

    I still would prefer the Yankees to get Scott Kazmir over any other pitcher currently in the majors. He is special, younger and had great success against Boston.

  109. Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    “Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level” means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.”

    By this logic any player is replacement level, because if you had someone better then the given player would be riding the bench. Cano is replacement level because if we had Utely Cano would be riding the bench.

    As another poster wrote replacement level is the level of a player easily available to any team (AAA level).

    Last season Crisp was 43 fielding runs and 10 batting runs about a replacement level center fielder. Thus most definately not replacement level. Not great batting, but greating fielding.

  110. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    Clearly killschill, the Yankees don’t see themselves as having to “win now”.

    If that was the case, they would have included Jackson and Horne in the deal and gotten it done.

    They took a longer term view here.

    Its why the Yankees can’t win. If they don’t do the deal, they are incompetent. If they do the deal, they are giving away the farm, spending too much money, etc.

    Seems to me, they took the attitude was that if the deal makes sense for them they would do it. If not, they passed.

    Not exactly the work of people thinking only about today.

    Kasey, no question they start next year behind the Sox in a big way. But, what can you do?

    Really, what’s the solution? Give them Kennedy, Jackson AND 150 million?

    At some point, you can’t give up more just to keep him away from Boston.

    I am a huge Santana fan but, I’m not faulting the Yankees for passing on this deal. I don’t give up Kennedy and Jackson.

    Who knows, maybe being an underdog takes the pressure off the Yankees for a change. Not such a bad thing.

  111. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    Blargh –
    http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com

  112. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    raymagnetic,

    torre could not have just “pulled the team off the field.” if he could have, he would have. it was discussed quite a bit after the game.

    obviously, your reading comprehension level is low at best. at no point did i say the twins made the deal simply to spite hank. i said his announcement didn’t help things at all. care to argue otherwise?

    cashman did what he could. at no point did i say otherwise. he made an offer and stood by it. that’s fine.

    doesn’t change the fact that the reigning world series champs just got an awful lot better. are you missing that point, along with every other i’ve made?

    i’m all set as far as discussions with you go, thanks. enjoy your idiocy.

  113. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    I’m sure that Jeter is a fine, upstanding RESIDENT of Tampa.

  114. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    GOTWINS – Oh, you thought you were talking baseball? Excuse me, all I heard coming from you was bulls*$t.

  115. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    Oh please gotwins, we have a resident red sox fan on here, and he posts back and forth with people no one is rude to him. maybe people were rude to you, because you were rude to them. Ever think about that.?

  116. Mitchell's Eleven December 4th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    kasey,

    what “war” are we exactly in?

    here we go again, basing what we do as a team on what the Red Sox do. there are 28 other teams in baseball, other than the Boston Red Sox, who affect us. if we’re “at war,” we’re at war with all of them.

    here’s a question: if the Yankees were to enter a period that, which they might not be at this time, in which a step back was taken in regards to letting youth develop and not working to put that massive championship team out there, is that made harder for folks if the team that becomes the dominant team at that time is the Boston Red Sox?

  117. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    “Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.”

    Excuse me, sensei, but how does the elephant crush the bunny if he steps over him?

  118. KC December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Hey! I was just wondering who are the other top prospects we have in the farm system including pitchers, infielders, and outfielders?

  119. migames December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    “wang will suddenly figure out how to pitch on turf and in october. ”

    All of sudden Wang is the worst thing to ever happen just because he had a lousy postseason? Wang is SOLID

    Wang has pitched 533 innings in his career, 68 of which happen to be on turf, the rays and the twins are both likely to move out of their domes in the next 3 years. As for the second part, im not even going to touch it. You just dont get it.

  120. LGV December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Why does it keep happening? Why do teams ask more from us than from any other team? Is there a rational explanation?

  121. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    “if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..”

    Ummm…actually you could spend that kind of money. Your tightwad owners just don’t want to put any of their riches back into the team. Get your facts straight.

  122. KC December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    and what is the deal with Tabata? I know he’s only 18, but is he mlb ready?

  123. Mitchell's Eleven December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    SJ – We can certainly hope that having the pressure off does make them a different team.

  124. The Fallen Phoenix December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    I’m not sure if the Red Sox aren’t giving up anything that hurts–if I recall correctly, they’re giving up yet another shortstop of the future, which means they go to war with Julio Lugo *again*. And by-and-large, their position players (especially Manny and Ortiz) are getting old just as well as the Yankees’ are.

    I think the key difference is that the Red Sox rotation is in its prime right now, whereas the Yankee rotation is completely infused with youth. Sure, the Red Sox are a much better bet to win a World Series or two in the next two-to-three years, but the Yankees aren’t *that* far behind, anything can happen in the postseason, and I think the Yankees will have a much easier time reloading than the Red Sox do after all their position players age away.

    It’s really easy to overstate the difference between the Red Sox and the Yankees, even if the Red Sox get Santana, but the two teams aren’t as far apart they might seem at first glance. Yes, the Red Sox are a better team on paper right now, but that’s not so meaningful. How many people thought the Red Sox would be as good as they were last year? How many people thought the Tigers would be as good as they were two years ago? The White Sox three years ago?

    When it comes down to the season and actually playing the games, all bets are off.

    Ultimately, I cannot imagine the Yankees including Hughes in any deal other than Santana, especially considering how reluctant the Yankee brass were with that option in the first place. I’ve read more than one report that said Yankee officials were questioning Hughes’ inclusion even when a deal seemed likely last night; if the Yankees are reluctant to part with Hughes to get Santana/block him from Boston, why would they be any more eager to part with Hughes to get Haren?

    Even the reactionary theory doesn’t make any sense, since you might as well have sealed the deal with Santana in the first place; then a reaction would not have been necessary. I think Cashman drew a line in the cement, the Twins refused to cross it, and he decided to walk away. Good for him. I cannot see him making similar concessions to anyone else for anyone else who is currently on the trade block, Haren and Bedard included.

  125. Chris Serico December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    I have absolutely no idea why Minnesota would agree to the current trade offer for Santana, considering the joke of a package they’d receive from Boston. Coco Crisp? They’d be doing the Sox a FAVOR.

    That bothers me far more than the concept of the Yankees not acquiring him.

  126. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    “I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.”

    Because Beckett doesn’t scare me. I watched the Yankees handle him several times this season. I also watched the rest of the Sox’s “amazing” starting pitching be generally mediocre in the playoffs…the Indians just turned out to be worse. Sabathia didn’t show up and Carmona folded under the pressure.

    I think that one of Hughes or Joba will step up and pull a Justin Verlander over the course of this season. And, thus, I feel pretty good about going into a playoff series with Pettitte, the two of them, and Wang.

  127. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    SJ44,

    this “forward thinking” team has a lineup constructed to win today. the offense is built to win, the rotation is built to grow. so, by the time hughes, chamberlain and kennedy are ready to contribute, pettitte, jeter, rivera and posada will either be gone or too old to make large contributions.

    nothing cashman could do, i agree. the red sox still win. and they win for the foreseeable future, as well.

  128. C.M. December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    Pete – I would say Lester is a little more than a prospect at this point, seeing that he won the clinching game of the world series.

  129. Paulie December 4th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    If Coco Crisp is part of the deal as oppose to Ellsbury, then Bill Smith should be fired on the spot. Someone should tell him that this isn’t MLB 2008 the Show for PS3

  130. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    Oh please gotwins, we have a resident red sox fan on here, and he posts back and forth with people no one is rude to him. maybe people were rude to you, because you were rude to them. Ever think about that.?

    ya know what pumpkin
    you could be right..
    but since all yankee fans seem the same.. they seem angry and want to argue.
    im guessing your not right..

  131. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    GOTWINS just said it…We shouldn’t bother responding to his posts. Thanks for that clarification, buddy…Will do!

  132. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    “i bet if the yankees would spend $70-$80mil..
    they would be the laughing stock of baseball.

    if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..”

    Woulda shoulda coulda GOTWINS! but it is hard to build a dynasty when there is so much more parity in baseball these days. The only team that has repeated as champions since 2000 are the Red Sox and even then it took them 4 years to win 2, there are no back to back teams since us. LOOK AROUND!

  133. ugayank December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    anyone see Pettitte’s remarks that he could pitch for another ten years?

  134. islesfan December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    I wouldn’t make that deal if I were the Yankees either and I think they will be fine with their young stud pitchers.

    But this is like the Curt Schilling trade all over again.

    The D’backs were asking for the stars and moon from the Yankees and then after they refused, the D’backs turn around and accept garbage from Boston.

    I still wouldn’t be scared of Boston. The Yankees never had a problem beating Santana in the playoffs and Beckett still doesn’t scare me. Schilling is on his last legs and Dice-K is nothing more than a media creation (still waiting for the gyro ball).

    BTW, great job Pete. As always.

  135. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    SJ44
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
    Being a charter member of the “Get Santana” Fan Club and someone who knows a bit about the Yankees Farm System, I agree with Pete.

    I don’t get fleeced by the Twins. If that means he goes to Boston, so be it.

    Its tough enough to give up Hughes, which should have been the clincher in the deal.

    However, when Smith continues to ask for more and more, at some point, you just have to pass.

    Sweeney Murti on the FAN just reported the Yankees believe he is going to Boston.

    _________________________________________________
    The Yankees believe that Sweeney Murti is going to Boston? That’s hardly a major loss. Perhaps he can take Michael Kay and Suzyn Waldman with him. Talk a bout a great day in Yankeeland.

  136. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    mitchell’s eleven,

    i’m fine with a “rebuilding period,” except this isn’t that. this offense is built to win now. the rotation is not.

  137. We Miss Paulie December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    JBRO, it sounds like you already are one….:)

  138. mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    Can everyone please say aye aye to the following so GOTWINS will be happy (that’s how you deal with passive-aggressives, give them what they want)

    -Liriano is better than Santana and could’ve won the Cy Young had he not got injured.

    -Liriano is far better than Hughes.

    -The Twins are a superior club because they field such great teams while spending a fraction of what the Yankees do.

  139. marc December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    chaz palminteri thinks yanks are crazy

  140. TwinsfaninNY December 4th, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    “I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.”

    they’re not used to actually having young homegrown pitching…so they’re not comprehending that they’ll be lucky if one of the three has a good season:
    cause one’s gonna get hurt, one’s gonna not be so good, and one might be good.

    that’s the way it works.

    meanwhile Santana hasn’t been on the DL since 2001.

  141. Kill-Schill(ing) December 4th, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    Murphy, talk me off man, because I can’t see how the prospect of Santana in Boston is anything but devastating, especially because the Red Sox have to relinquish so little to do so.

    I hope to God this is just an eleventh-hour bluff to get the Yankees to yield more. And the Twins turn around and demand more from the Red Sox as they close in on a deal– a demand that ultimately scuttles the deal.

    Otherwise, I’m going to agonize about this trade for the next three months.

    I can’t fathom why the Yankees wouldn’t include Horne or Betances in their offer and Alberto Gonzales, if necessary, to see whether the Twins would accept it.

    I can understand rebuffing a demand for IPK and Hughes, but not Hughes and Horne.

  142. marc December 4th, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    he wants santana for hughes and kennedy

  143. PittsburghYankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    I say this is all a smokescreen for the Twins to say we really tried to trade Johan.

    Assume the trade gets made. Do you really think that Johan signs with the Sox during the 72 hour window? Something tells me no.

    Or, that at the last minute, the Twins ask for Buchholtz instead of Lester given the cancer scare (who wouldn’t). Sox refuse.

    That way the Twins GM goes to the fans and says “we tried.” They keep him for later in the offseason or during the season, and see how things develop.

    That’s why the offer is so high for serious clubs like the Yankees–perhaps since a deal could be done.

    Given the response here on this blog, they are counting on Cash to act like some of us fanboys.

    Thanks to heaven that Cash is in charge.

  144. marc December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    twins fans must be dying with this proposed trade

  145. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    LGV,

    “Why does it keep happening? Why do teams ask more from us than from any other team? Is there a rational explanation?”

    Because not long ago we used to give up a lot more than anyone else in trades for bloated salary players we thought would take us to the promised land, there are still teams out there dumb enough to play chicken with Cashman on this issue.

  146. Blargh December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Thanks :)

    Hmm, this Cot’s Baseball Contracts site is handy…
    Looks like the Royals are trying; 67 million for the 2007 opening day roster…will be interesting to see how far they would go up over the next couple of years

  147. Jake December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    I completely agree, we can field a solid team.

    If Santana goes to the Red Sox, I won’t pretend it isn’t a big deal because it undoubtedly will be bigtime for them and bad for the Yankees.

    You heard it hear first: the Red Sox will acquire Santana, the Twins electing to take the Crisp/Lester package (and inferior package to boot) and will sign Santana to a 6 year, $120 million contract.

    The Yankees will plan to move in to 2008 with Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Joba, and Phil in the rotation with Kennedy working long relief and spot starts as the season progresses. They will bolster their bullpen with Horne, Ron Mahay, Ross Ohlendorf, and the Viz. They will start marquez in the minors. Humberto Sanchez will set up for Rivera by July.

  148. marc December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    maddog is salivating over “proposed” trade

  149. erikp December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    Sometimes when things sound too good to be true, they are. Unless the Twins are seeing something we’re not, maybe the idea that they’d trade their franchise player for the package that’s being thrown around is totally false and the product of bloggers and the rumor-mill. Can you really see this Twins brass holding a press conference to explain to their fans that they traded away arguably the best pitcher of his generation for …drumroll… Jon Lester and three other guys?? I just can’t see that happening.

  150. alext December 4th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

    No, I can’t say aye to that. Sorry =)

  151. gayle December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    And I should care3 about what Chazz Palmeteri thinks because????

  152. mel December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Chaz wanted us to raid Fort Knox and chase Alex after he opted out.

  153. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    mike could care less…so we’ll be the underdog

  154. bummy December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    That really put me at ease. Thanks!

  155. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Beckett had a 4.39 ERA in 26.2 IP against the Yankees last year. Hardly dominant.

  156. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    Can everyone please say aye aye to the following so GOTWINS will be happy (that’s how you deal with passive-aggressives, give them what they want)

    -Liriano is better than Santana and could’ve won the Cy Young had he not got injured.

    -Liriano is far better than Hughes.

    -The Twins are a superior club because they field such great teams while spending a fraction of what the Yankees do.

    ok, i did not word the 3rd one that way.. cuz i dont use the word superior and fraction..

    and what about those posts is being rude to people?

    im rude now because of how ive been treated..
    but the 3 examples you gave.. have nothing to do with me being rude

  157. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    I like Mike’s approach right about now. Better to be the underdog than reactionary.

  158. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    The biggest mistake people make is projecting games before they are played.

    We see that every year when the Yankees face a pitcher they will “destroy”. Often, that doesn’t happen.

    The bottom line is, the Twins took the lesser offer. Absent giving away your farm system, I don’t know what Cash/Hank could have done to change the course of the deal.

    Now, the pressure is on the Red Sox. Let them deal with the “World Series or Bust” stuff.

    Their whining about payroll ends and now we have to hope the Yankees young arms take shape.

    If they do, the Yankees will be just fine. Sure, the Red Sox are favorites but, the favorites don’t always win.

    Its awfully tough to give up 4 A list players for Santana when the team you are competing with for him is giving up less. Much less.

  159. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    Well played, old WFAN caller.

  160. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

    TwinsfaninNY,

    You might as well bounce your self off this site. No one cares about your bottom feeding Twins right now.

    Just remember this: the Yankees will ALWAYS be better than the Twins…ALWAYS.

  161. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    TwinsfaninNY
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
    1. Santana does not have “awful ERA” at Fenway. that’s based on two starts six years ago…before he became the pitcher he now is. cheez.

    2. Boston is upping their offer of Lester, Crisp, Lowrie (the blue chip in this deal) and Masterson. probably another one of their top prospects. (and that group, cause of Lowrie and Masterson, beats the Yankees best offer)

    3. I’d be highly surprised if Crisp stays in MN…probably being packaged with Nathan….

    _________________________________________________
    Somehow, I don’t think you know a “blue chip” from a “cow chip”.

  162. migames December 4th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    the defenition of replacement player, as when it refers to a baseball indicator, it does not mean that if the yankees get Utley, Cano is a replacement player…..

    “What Is Replacement Level?
    Baseball is a zero sum game. One team always wins at the expense of another. It is not possible for one team to win without another losing. In order to win, a team must be able to produce more runs (or prevent runs from scoring) than the opposition. It’s success in producing wins is directly tied to its ability to produce more runs than its opponent. Any competitive advantage a team has must, in some way, translate to better on-field performance to be valuable.

    A commodity which is easily available to all teams at no or low cost confers no competitive advantage, and therefore is of minimal value. Thus, baseball value comes from scarcity.

    The talent distribution in baseball can be summed up as follows: there are very few “superstar” level players, a somewhat larger number of “average” producers, and a practically unlimited number of “scrubs”. This is usually represented as the tail end of a bell curve or normal distribution, with the vast majority of the overall population already weeded out through other factors prior to reaching professional ball.

    Average players have value. Measures that use average production as a reference point, such as TPR, incorrectly estimate the contribution of average players by failing to recognize the value of average playing time.

    Replacement level is a less concrete mathematical concept, but it is an important economic one. In particular, it more correctly values durability and playing time versus rates of production. ”

    source: http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/.....escnew.htm

  163. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    it looks like these twin fans are as stupid and cheap as their ownership. but they don’t seem elated by this “proposed”trade, maybe theyre getting hip. hanging out in here and all…

  164. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    is this a done deal sj44?? I haven’t heard anything

  165. #9 December 4th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

    I’ve been following the Yankess for the past 27 years.

    If this was 1987 – the Yankees would have given up the farm for Santana i.e. Hughes, IPK, Horne & Jackson without even thinking twice about it.

    For the first time I can remember, in all those years, the Yankees are building a foundation that will bring us a far superior team that will grow together instead of a bunch of free agents that are thrown together.

    2008 will be the first of many great seasons to come.

  166. Kill-Schill(ing) December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    SJ44, can you persuade me that the Yankees should not include Horne and Alberto Gonzales along with Hughes in an offer for Santana?

    I can’t understand why the Yankees would allow a potential deal to founder over Alan Horne.

    Can you enlighten me?

  167. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    SJ44,

    You’re talking like something has been agreed to by the Twins and Red Sox.

    Is this the case?

  168. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    how the hell does FAN break this story at 1:30?!?!

  169. Doreen December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    The Yankees play Boston head-to-head very well. The Yankees have to beat the other teams they play and I think the are constructed to do so. I don’t hand the division over just yet.

    It’s really amazing — I don’t know if it’s different people posting or what, but first it was keep the kids, the kids are great, the kids will win, these are the best prospects ever, etc., etc. Now that it looks like the Yankees will be keeping the kids, it’s the end of the world. The Yankees will never win.

    And no one know exactly what the Yankees will look like in 4 years, or the Red Sox for that matter. Manny and Ortiz will also be aging (unless they have portraits in the attic at Fenway), as well as everyone else there. The Yankees won’t be aging in a vacuum. And if I’m to believe the people here who post with respect to the Yankees farm system, not only is it not exactly barren, but it seems to be times to ripen about when they’re going to be needed. Plus, oh my, they will be drafting new talent in the meantime.

    Baseball is fluid; life is fluid. And ya gotta play the games.

  170. islesfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    I can’t wait to see the Twins press conference introducing Coco Crisp and Jon Lester.

    Good luck trying to fill that new stadium.

    And Bill Smith better enjoy his only year as a baseball GM. This trade will be a career killer for him.

  171. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    Az getting Haren for Connor Jackson.

  172. Deep to Left December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    LouG
    December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
    Hey, we are relaxed.
    The worst that could happen is that we break up the holy trinity.
    KEEP THE KIDS.

    LOL… Is it too early to start referring to Joba as the father, Hughes as the son, and Kennedy as the ghost???

  173. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    haren to dbacks?

  174. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Go Twins – Payroll should not be an excuse. I am not arguing your point about “the Yankees should win because they spend so much”, but instead the point that the Twins don’t win the World Series because of their payroll.

    20006 – St Louis Cardinals – $88,891,371
    2005 – Chicago White Sox – $75,178,000
    2003 – Florida Marlins – $45,050,000
    2002 – Anaheim Angels – $ 61,721,667

  175. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    GOTWINS:

    Are you done yet, “Pumpkin?”

  176. migames December 4th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    “Now, the pressure is on the Red Sox. Let them deal with the “World Series or Bust” stuff.”

    For some reason, i feel like the yankees will stop dealing the World Series or Bust stuff, and if the red soxs start dealing like that, lord. We are going to have a ton of unhappy fans one way or another and then people label players like Wang and Arod chockers because of a bad game in the playoffs.

  177. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    i hope we dont do something dumb just to prevent a the twins from making a bad trade

  178. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    SJ44,

    “Their whining about payroll ends and now we have to hope the Yankees young arms take shape.”

    If we have to give up Johan to get them to stop using that payroll disparity BS they always use, then so be it, its worth it because even after Matsuzaka they still try to make people think they are simply unable spend like The Evil Empire.

  179. YankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    if indeed santana does go to sox, that makes them a heavy favorite, but so what? we’ve been the favorites for the past decade. their pitching would be better than ours, but our offense would be better than theirs. (remember we won the season series against them last year & consider the terrible pitching we had in the first couple months)
    but no one on their staff should scare us other than santana (if they do get him). beckett had a great year, but let’s see him do it again for a full year.
    all is not lost. we are the yankees. i told people last year the same thing when we were 8 under, 14.5 back. relax. teams still fear us and for good reason.

  180. Cumberberg December 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    “The added benefit. We no longer have to hear Theo and Lucchino whine about money and how they can’t be a “Uber team, like the Yankees”, everytime a deal takes place.

    The Red Sox whining is all over after this deal.”

    Thanks SJ, exactly my thinking. I’m looking forward to Sox shelling out the massive contract for Santana. I’m so tired of the whining. The Sox fans can look in the mirror and see that they have become what they claimed they most despised.

  181. myrtlebeachfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Kennedy will be in the rotation next year. He threw 165 innings last year.

    Joba only threw about 112 innings.

    Kennedy is further developed and has the experience in college to help him along. He can throw 180 innings or more next year easily.

    Hughes on the other hand, threw 110 including the injury. He did, however, throw ~145 in 2006 and he should be able to throw at least 160-180 if he does an adequate amount of working out in the offseason.

    Joba is the least likely to be the mainstay in the rotation just because he is the most limited by innings. You have to set up some sort of 6 man rotation that alternates out each turn. It can easily be worked out where the normal starters (Moose, Pettitte, Wang) all get 5 days rest but the kids still get their work in.

    Having three great young pitchers and trying to get them all work is a great problem to have.

  182. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    I think Haren was just Russo hearing a rumor and reporting it as done.

  183. islesfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    How is Lowrie the “Blue Chip prospect” in this deal?

    A middle infielder with doubles power, who just hit .167 in the Arizona Fall League.

    Bill Smith got caught with his pants down.

  184. V is For Vendetta December 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    why do clubs demand a premium when dealing with the Yankees?

    (Lester & Coco) vs (Hughes & Melky) – that’s not even close contest.

    I would understand demanding more from a division rival, but that’s not the case.

    And to spite the dreaded evil empire, the Twins shoot themselves in the foot, by accepting the weaker offer.

  185. rodg12 December 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    marc/jennifer:

    Link?

  186. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    wang will suddenly figure out how to pitch on turf and in october.

    This is such garbage. Did Wang forget how to pitch in October in 2006? How about 2005? Does he forget how to pitch in Minnesota’s dome? How about Tampa’s? The Dome which really skews his numbers is in Toronto.

    But I wouldn’t expect you to know this.

  187. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    per wfan.

  188. migames December 4th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    jennifer, your second trade that your break. good for you

  189. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

    islesfan
    December 4th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
    How is Lowrie the “Blue Chip prospect” in this deal?

    A middle infielder with doubles power, who just hit .167 in the Arizona Fall League.

    Bill Smith got caught with his pants down.

    He is the Blue Chip Prospect because Peter Gammons LOVES him.

  190. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    maddog is jumping all over this…yankeehater that he is…can’t believe sox are getting away with this steal…like he cares

  191. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    It’s funny. 5 years ago, yanks would have made this deal days ago. I’m glad to see changes are occurring

  192. J-Dawg December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    Doreen- I agree with you, 100 percent. I’ve also noticed a drastic change in outlook from some people while discussing the future of the Yankees. Several weeks and months ago actually, there was very much excitement from people when it came to the Yankees being able to integrate some youth into the rotation with Joba, Phil, and Ian. Now it seems like all of the air is out of the balloon. I get the vibe from others that it is a letdown to go with the three. I happen to be excited about the potential of all three players. The Red Sox may have the better team on paper with Santana, but the games aren’t played on paper. That’s something that I have learned from Derek Jeter.

  193. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    Thanks, I wish I had better sources than the radio. :)

    Actually I probably do, hmmm I know who I can email.

  194. mel December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    GOTWINS,

    You’re obviously a young person and as such you should respect your elders. LOL. Keeping my schoolmarm hat on, please do us all a favor, stay in school or go back if you’re out. “You’re” is a contraction. That’s a shortened word for “You are”. “Your” is a possessive pronoun. It’s used to indicate that something belongs to you.

    Example: You’re out of your freaking mind if you think you can go to another team’s site and expect people to want to talk to you if you bring the insults.

    It’s rare, but it happens. ‘ray’ from Boston often posts here, but he engages people by making jokes and talking positively about the Yankees (sometimes).

  195. SavePhilHughes December 4th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

    Russo is driving me nuts.
    Yes we don’t know how the kids will work out..but it is not the end of the world if the Red Sox get Santana

  196. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

    Haren’s a rumor, all. Its reported on Rotoworld and other sites that they’re talking, Russo reported it as happening.

  197. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    KillSchill,

    The Twins wouldn’t accept the deal. They wanted Kennedy as the third guy.

    Absent that, they wanted Horne AND Jackson.

    Seems to me everytime the Yankees added a player, the demands went up.

    They talked about more options in the deal (as bobcat discussed when discussing the lists).

    The bottom line is, the Twins wanted more from the Yankees than they seem to be settling for from the Red Sox.

    When that happens, what can you do? Can’t keep adding more players to an already superior offer.

    I wanted Santana as much as anybody. But, there is a limit.

    Kudos to the Red Sox for doing a deal that didn’t involve Ellsbury or Buchholz.

    Unfortunately, the playing field was not level when it came to the Yankees offers for Santana.

  198. Kubah December 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    In Cash We Trust… right?

  199. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    yeah, people are trying to make lowrie out to be something more than he truly is. lowrie had an excellent season last year. he’s average with the glove and will probably move to second, diminishing the value of his bat. also, some scouts picture lowrie as ending up being no more than a super-utility player, not even a full time regular (this is per baseball prospectus, not me).

  200. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    mad dog is just saying that it is crazy that the twins are accepting this package. and that the red sox aren’t giving anything up.

  201. islesfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    If this trade happens, I hope Santana is a big part of the Mitchell Report.

    Oh wait, Mitchell is on the Red Sox Board of Directors. Santana’s name will be blacked out of his report.

  202. Rafael December 4th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

    Jayson Stark:

    “After being told Kennedy wasn’t available if Hughes was part of the deal, the Twins apparently proposed expanding the trade into a 4-for-1 swap, with players they considered to be lesser prospects than Kennedy. But the Yankees quickly rejected that pitch, too.

    That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson.”

    So your telling me the Yankees couldn’t do Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Horne for Santana??

    Just the idea alone of keeping him from Boston alone should be enough to pull the trigger on that deal. Come on!

    George would have gotten this deal done…

  203. Irabu's Son December 4th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

    I’ve decided that I don’t want Johan Santana on the Yankees. I mean I do, but not for the price of Hughes or Cabrera, let alone both. Plus other prospects.

    Let the 3 kids grow together. If we miss the playoffs this year, so be it. Rome wasn’t built in the day. But I still think we can win 92-95 games with a rotation of Pettitte, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy/Mussina.

  204. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:15 pm

    “uneasy is the head that wears the crown”

    red sox want to be us…

    let it be, let it be…

    the little evil empire

  205. Irabu's Son December 4th, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    edit: Rome may have been built in THE day(time) as I stated, but certainly not in A day. Oops.

  206. Paul V December 4th, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    As Olney says in his blog today:

    Without Santana, the Yankees would go into next season with essentially the same rotation that they had in the second half of the 2007 season, in which they went 51-25.

    Yankees may go into next season with these six pitchers filling five spots in their rotation:

    * Chien-Ming Wang
    * Andy Pettitte
    * Phil Hughes
    * Joba Chamberlain
    * Mike Mussina
    * Ian Kennedy

    And the Red Sox would pick up 260 million in payroll obligation.

    # # #

    Of course, none of this matters because, as the Sox fans and the more retarded of us Yankee fans absolutely know, Beckett and Santana will always pitch no-hitters against us and all of our pitchers will always suck.

    Yes, the world is truly ending. We should just demolish the stadium and go home.

    # # #

    I am actually glad to see the deal fall through, if it has fallen through. I think we can win it all with Pettitte, Wang, Hughes, Joba and IPK.

  207. Dan from Mass December 4th, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    I hope the Haren rumor is true, but I’d be surprised.

    Somebody please assure me we would never give Hughes and Kennedy, or even Hughes plus ?, for Haren. Good grief. I can’t take it.

  208. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    Although he only took a one-year deal, Andy Pettitte said he’d like to remain with the Yankees when the new stadium opens in 2009.

    Pettitte doesn’t see himself pitching just one more year. “I really believe now, especially after playing with the Astros and pitching with my elbow the way it was when I needed the surgery, I realize now I could go out and probably pitch until I’m 45 years old, because I was throwing 82, 83 miles an hour and still being able to compete, maybe because I’m left-handed or whatever,” he said. “For me, the thing of me not being able to go out there and get any guys out, I think that’s so far down the road, probably, that’s never going to play into my decision.”

  209. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    maddog is such a blatant yankee-hater it comes across as phony…he will say anything for entertainment value

  210. andy Hawkin's ghost December 4th, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    Boston got a steal but I think that this could turn out to be a good thing in the long run. I believe that the three clubs that run things the best are Cleveland, Oakland, and the Angels. If we can emulate them in terms of development and include our ability to spend on the free agent market we will be fine. Remember that the Twins are trading Santana because they can’t afford him. This would never happen to a Yankee developed super star. We need to worry about bullpen NOW as well as get a decent first basemen. As we know, just because you field an all star team that gaurentees nada. Keep the faith.

  211. islesfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Lester is Steve Avery
    Coco is Coco
    Lowrie is Mark Loretta
    Masterson is a big doof who doesn’t come close to a K an inning as a middle reliever.

    Bill Smith is lucky he has a common name so he’ll be harder for disgruntled Twins fans to track down.

  212. Kathleen December 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Totally agree, Pete. And, I’m real suspicious of the deal that Minnesota is considering from the Red Sox. Something isn’t right when the Yankees’ offer is so much better than theirs. The Yankees are held up by every team they try to deal with. Let the Red Sox have Santana. Let’s give our kids a chance to show what our kids can do.

  213. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    “bad day for baseball, little market steals from big market,” maddog…what the hell does that mean…and you can’t argue with them, they just cut you off.

  214. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    “George would have gotten this deal done…”

    Exactly why its nice to see us not saying “eh, _______ shouldn’t hold this up, just take our prospects!”

  215. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Rafael, I agree with you – have to make that deal.

  216. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    I like this take from Joe Christensen of the Star-Tribune (he is right on):

    “None of these Boston prospects, including Ellsbury, has the superstar potential of the Yankees’ Phil Hughes, in my opinion. I thought the Twins were on the right track asking for Hughes, Melky Cabrera and one more top prospect.

    At first glance, the Boston packages seem to be more about quantity than quality. Not saying the Red Sox prospects aren’t quality. They are, but the packages don’t have the marquee star of the Yankees’ deals, they just fill more needs for the Twins.”

  217. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    A recent history lesson…

    I’m sure you all remember when the Yanks acquired A-Rod from Texas, right? When that happened, the whole league breathed a collective sigh and prepared themselves for the coming of the newest Yankee dynasty. Nowhere was that feeling more apparent than in Boston, where Sox fans were infuriated that the Yanks had “stolen” A-Rod from right under their noses, and they questioned whether their team could ever again compete with the Yanks, nevermind get to a World Series.

    Sound familiar?

  218. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    “So your telling me the Yankees couldn’t do Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez and Horne for Santana??”

    Marquez and Horne are two of the Yankees’ best behind the big three.

    Again: If the Sox only have to send Lester, Crisp and some nobodies…why do the Yankees have to send so much more?

  219. Boston Dave December 4th, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    kill schill -

    Unfortunately, I agree with you 100%. Sox would be a FORCE. That’s not good. The Yanks will still be an excellent team but winning the division would be tough.

  220. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    Bill and Rafael,

    I agree with you. I think it’s a mistake not to take it. But, I really do trust cash and steinbrenner.

  221. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    the redsox are playing this like a fantasy league deal…let’s see how stupid these guys are, we’ll offer them all the garbage we don’t need or want and see if they take it…a game of how stupid are you

  222. Rpillai December 4th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Id take all offers off the table right now, let Smith play footsie with Epstein.

  223. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    I think the Yankees should withhold any of their luxury tax money sent to the Twins. It’s pretty obvious they’re already using the BS Yankee Tax that Arizona used with Schilling.

  224. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    You guys are talking this deal between the Twins and Sox is in the bag. You’re just reading in to things.

    Until it is officially reported, stop talking like it is. Having said that, it won’t be officially reported until the Sox manage to negotiate the extension, and that won’t be simple either.

    I always trust in the Yankees as an organization when it is headed by Brian cashman. Also know that Joe Girardi is giving his take as well. We will be just fine regardless.

    Sometimes one step backwards is worth the three forward…maybe our youth is just that. Having said that, we will compete next year, just wait and see.

  225. keith December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    kasey,

    “torre could not have just “pulled the team off the field.” if he could have, he would have. it was discussed quite a bit after the game.”

    Why did Joe say his one biggest regret this year was not taking action in this situation by pulling the team off the field or insisting the umps stop the game? He admitted this in his “farewell” press conference.

  226. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    boston dave,

    as far as i’m concerned we won the division last year…boston wet the bed esp. when they played us…

  227. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    You can’t deal with someone who isn’t rational, and it is obvious that the Twins gm isn’t rational.

  228. Wolf In Pinstripes December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    “If they do, the Yankees will be just fine. Sure, the Red Sox are favorites but, the favorites don’t always win.”

    Exactly. People need to remember how hard it is to reach the WS to begin with, much less to win it.

    If Boston lands Santana, you don’t pencil them in to win for the next 10 years, as people are suggesting. It certainly makes them stronger on paper, but it’s no guarantee. ARod should be a great example of how one player does not guarantee you anything. It doesn’t mean you can’t use the talent of one player. For example, ARod’s monster 2006 season played a very large role in the Yankees even being able to contend after a disastrous start last year. Just the same, Sanata is going to contribute a great deal to whatever team he ends up with, but it doesn’t hand over any titles to them in the end.

    The reality of baseball is that there are 162 games to play through just to get to the postseason. Any number of things can affect who gets there and how they perform once they do. Hot streaks, cold streaks, acts of nature (snow, insects, etc.), injuries to star/key players, overachieving seasons of players with lower expectations, emerging rookies, managerial decisions, trade deadline acquisitions …. should I go on?

    Pitching is crucial, but what if the offense isn’t there to support a great pitcher (see : Clemens and Pettitte with Houston). On the flip side, immense offensive output means nothing if your pitchers can’t keep the runs down for the opposition.

    The Yankees aren’t a AAA team. Our offense is stacked, the pitching will be improved simply by the having full seasons from the young 3 (if they play a full season of course), and there are intangibles that improve us from last year. Those intangibles include changes in coaching personnel. Girardi is an improvement for several reasons. Eiland is a huge plus. Retaining Kevin Long will pay continued dividends. We no longer have a conditioning coach that is going to be responsible for a freakish amnount of hamstring injuries to start the season. These things can take what was a great team last year and help put them over the top.

    The only thing I have concerns about is the bullpen, and the Yankees have acknowledged that weakness and are addressing it. Even from withing the organization, we have better choices than we did last year now that a lot of guys have another year of development under their belts.

  229. Mike R. December 4th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    berra8
    December 4th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
    I like this take from Joe Christensen of the Star-Tribune (he is right on):

    “None of these Boston prospects, including Ellsbury, has the superstar potential of the Yankees’ Phil Hughes, in my opinion. I thought the Twins were on the right track asking for Hughes, Melky Cabrera and one more top prospect.

    At first glance, the Boston packages seem to be more about quantity than quality. Not saying the Red Sox prospects aren’t quality. They are, but the packages don’t have the marquee star of the Yankees’ deals, they just fill more needs for the Twins.”

    That Joe Christensen is a Yankee homer! Just like all of those NY sports writers!! He is tottally biased!!!!

    Wait…he’s from where?…He works for what paper?…So someone outside of Yankee land recognizes that the HY package is better?…Very interesting….Can someone please inform Sox fans, and Twins fans, and ESPN.

  230. G. Love December 4th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    Man, this is a disgrace if the Red Sox get out of this without having to give up Ellsbury or Bucholtz. It’s stunning. Seriously.

    I know we kept Joba off the table, but he is an all world talent. Cano isn’t a prospect anymore and shouldn’t even be brought up since he’s a MLB all star.

    The Red Sox are trading pieces that will not be even missed for a second by them. That doesn’t speak to the depth of their farm system, it speaks to the Twins utter mishandling of this deal.

    Sometimes I think other GM’s just feel honored to sit at the table with Theo and the Red Sox and they lose perspective.

    How do you sell this deal to your fans as the best deal when the Yankees offered the two best players in Hughes and Melky. Yes, I think Hughes and Melky are better players/prospects than Lester, Crisp.

    This is astounding.

    What the Twins in fact are doing is saving Boston 5 million a year in CF by taking Crisp. That gives Boston an extra 5 million to put towards Johan.

    I can’t believe another team would be this stupid. By taking Crisp, they’re in essence giving the Red Sox a 5 million credit to use towards Johan.

    I’m stunned.

    And the Yankees should not run back to the table and give in to the Twins. That ship has sailed. The Twins are going to hold the Yankees up for our current and possibly future CF and 2/5th’s of our starting rotation.

    This trade doesn’t even hurt the Red Sox outside the sentimentality they have for Lester due to his illness. Which again, is amazing that a team is willing to trade the best pitcher in baseball for a young man who less than a year ago was out of baseball due to illness that could return.

    Stunning.

  231. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    whozat – Marquez and Horne are UNKNOWN. Santana is a proven SP – a two-time CY Young award winner. IF Marquez and Horne can equal or surpass that, great! But thats probably not going to happen. The Yankees wouldn’t be risking ANYTHING by taking Santana. IMO, they are risking by actually keeping Marquez and Horne.

  232. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 4th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    Kasey – I believe that you have had some posts suggesting that Hank Steinbrenner’s style is hurting the Yankees’ position in the Santana faceoff. I tend to agree.

    (1) Hank has spent his whole life in the background, where the organizational dynamic has been as owner’s son, and everone else is a subordinate/underling/lackey.
    (2) He has injected himself into the Winter Meetings with that mindset; unfortunately, he is now dealing with PEERS. The other executives also have a power base, agendas and egos (especially egos).
    (3) Hank is exhibiting the same personality traits that work when you are the boss’ son within the boss’ business.
    (3) Those traits are counter-productive when attempting to interact with PEERS in making a deal.
    (4) This is not a FA signing or a “salary dump” trade. It takes more than the most money. It requires people skills.
    (5) In this specific case, the Twins have options. If they have comparable options, they’ll be drawn to the party that treats them with respect, and as a PEER.

    I have no idea how this will play out, but anyone who thinks that Hank’s demeanor, inconsistency, and arrogance don’t hurt the Yankees’ chances to reach a trading consensus are clueless on “the art of making a deal.” Personalities DO matter, and don’t think that they don’t.

  233. Nick in SF December 4th, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    Minor point, but CM Wang was injured at the beginning of last season, he didn’t make his first start until April 24th. If he pitched a full season without inury, it’s a reasonable assumption that gets to or beyond 20 wins, would probably have been more effective in the early games he lost, and probably could/should have gotten more Cy Young consideration.

    This exercise in “if” means nothing as to how he will or won’t perform in 2008 or whether he’ll go through the year injury-free. But I think you also can’t make any serious argument about 2008 based on what Wang did in one playoff series versus Cleveland. He hasn’t proven that he can’t be an ace or at least a solid 1-b type pitcher any more than he’s proven that he can be.

    Similarly, if you want to write off Wang and the Yanks in a playoff series, do you also write off Johan Santana and his 1-4 post-season record? Probably not. Projecting how Santana will pitch over the course of the 2008 season — be it in the Bronx, Fenway, or the Minny Men’s Room– is highly speculative, and how he’d pitch in the 2008 post-season even more so.

    So basing serious arguments on how Hughes/Jaba/IPK and Lester/Bucholtz/DiceK will/won’t do over the course of a full season is even more speculative.

    In other words, wherever Santana goes or doesn’t go, nobody is conceding anything and it isn’t the end of the world for anyone either.

  234. Jason December 4th, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    Dan from Mass-

    If Hughes/Kennedy was a dealbreaker for Santana, then it’s a dealbreaker for Haren. Hughes shouldn’t even be anywhere close to the table.

  235. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:27 pm

    Leonard – its 99% done.

    UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:15pm: ESPN Peter Gammons says the Twins are trying to decide between a 3-for-1 (Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson) or a 4-for-1 (Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson). No contract negotiations with the Red Sox and Santana’s agent have taken place yet.

    Its just pick and choose at this point for the Twinkies.

  236. #27 n Cali December 4th, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    What’s up with Pete? Cognitive dissonance much? Nobody, nobody thinks that Ellsbury is “replacement level.” If he thinks that, he’s alone in doing so. I don’t believe he does think it, though. I think he thinks his job is to place a salve on our wounds.

    Pete, you’re not our therapist, you’re our messenger. We won’t kill you, so just deliver the news.

  237. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    cash doesn’t want santana anyway…he is still shellshocked from the kevin brown, pavano and to a lesser extent randy johnson deals

  238. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    So Brian Cashman’s personality plays no role? He’s only been the GM for the last decade (and the guy that GMs from other teams have dealt with time and again over that period of time), but I guess all anyone cares about is the silly things Hank Steinbrenner says. Great analysis… Spoken like a true Sox fan.

  239. keith December 4th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    Hank is in TAMPA, FL. The meetings are in NASHVILLE, TN.

  240. Rafael December 4th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    Marquez are good prospects, but let’s keep in mind they are in no way “A-list”.

    Marquez is a 23 year old who had a 3.65 ERA and a .270 BAA at Class AA Ball.

    Horne is a 25 year old who had a good season at Class AA Ball (3.11 ERA, .256 BAA) How would that translate to MLB level? And when would he realistically make a positive major impact at the MLB level.

    There’s no way you don’t make that trade. I understand refusing to part with Jackson, but Marquez and Horne???

    Santana is a rarity. How many pitchers of his stature, age, health will come into the market again? When was the last time something like this happened?

  241. bkight December 4th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    The Twins can just tell their fans they never liked Hughes. They passed him over twice in the 2004 for Trevor Plouffe and Glen Perkins at #19 and #22. Hughes went #23 and signed a very simllar bonus, around $1.4M. I thought they were known for their scouting.

  242. Martini6196 December 4th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    Again it’s not done yet. This is all stuff we’ve been hearing since last night.

  243. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    mike says,” why do the yankees always have to be the favorites?” good point

  244. We Miss Paulie December 4th, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    Bill, that doesn’t sound 99% done. That sounds like they’re having second thoughts about Ellsbury and might realize they’re getting a bad deal without him. Are the Sox serious about giving up Ellsbury? I dont think so, Boston fans will go beserk. Sit tight, its not over.

  245. Kill-Schill(ing) December 4th, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    I quote from Jayson Stark;

    ” After being told Kennedy wasn’t available if Hughes was part of the deal, the Twins apparently proposed expanding the trade into a 4-for-1 swap, with players they considered to be lesser prospects than Kennedy. But the Yankees quickly rejected that pitch, too. That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and pitcher Alan Horne.”

    PLEASE SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE YANKEES WOULDN’T CONSIDER THIS DEAL OR OFFER A COUNTER-PROPOSAL THAT REPLACED MARQUEZ WITH ALBERTO GONZALES?

  246. Vader December 4th, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    True

  247. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    mel December 4th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

    GOTWINS,

    You’re obviously a young person and as such you should respect your elders. LOL. Keeping my schoolmarm hat on, please do us all a favor, stay in school or go back if you’re out. “You’re” is a contraction. That’s a shortened word for “You are”. “Your” is a possessive pronoun. It’s used to indicate that something belongs to you.

    Example: You’re out of your freaking mind if you think you can go to another team’s site and expect people to want to talk to you if you bring the insults.

    It’s rare, but it happens. ‘ray’ from Boston often posts here, but he engages people by making jokes and talking positively about the Yankees (sometimes).

    hahaha.. there is always a dumb b*tch that brings someones life into things isnt there??
    and today that dumb b*tch is you:)

    and actually i do just fine in life!!
    thanks for the concern!

  248. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    How can it be 99% done, when they have to get Johans approval and the soxs have to agree on a contract.

  249. myrtlebeachfan December 4th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Even with this..

    Where is the Red Sox offense? Where is it? I seem to be missing something. With Ortiz and Manny starting on the downswing and Lugo/Drew being horrible, how can they compete with our offense? Pedroia will have a sophomore slump and that ridiculous swing won’t hold up forever. Ellsbury is unproven and will not be some amazing star next year. Youkilis is decent, and Lowell is too old to keep producing at the level that he did last season. Varitek is in decline, as well. Hasn’t been an offensive force for a WHILE. Not to mention that I think Lowell will be in the Mitchell report.

    The Yankees offense is FAR more promising, with Arod (40, 135 at least, Abreu 15/95 and Matsui 20/100, and the very likely possibility of cano going 20/100 and Jeter’s consistent 10/80 or 15/90, how do they begin to compete?

    We are better than them in right field, better at second base, better at short, better at third, better in center, better behind the plate.

    They only have an edge at first and in left. The edge in left is a slight edge, too. You can count DH, as well, but that would have to say that Damon+Giambi couldnt combine for 20-30 HR and 100RBI. WHich I believe they easily can.

    I’m talking offensively, though.

    They have the edge pitching, but not anywhere near the edge we have offensively. Our rotation is also pretty deep, with 7-8 capable starters. (Karstens and Igawa are capable given time… though not ideally who we want out there) We have a bullpen that is improving as I type this, in the winter meetings. It won’t be quite the pen that they have, but it will certainly be comparable.

  250. KG86 December 4th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Why are there so many Twins fans on this blog. You’d think that this trade is the greatest thing to happen to the Twins in a while…oh wait.

    Regardless of what happens during these Winter meetings, the Yankees will still be in the post season next year, something you cannot say about the Twins.

  251. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Ellsbury, Bucholz, Lowrie…That should be the deal (if the Twins were truly treating Boston like the Yanks).

  252. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Rafael – exactly.

  253. EY December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Heh, if the Twinkies want quantity (more players) instead of quality (Hughes) we’ll give them quantity. Let them know Chase Wright and De Salvo and Igawa are all available. We’ll ship all of them to fill whatever holes they need.

    If they’re stupid enough to take Crisp over Melky and Lester over Hughes, so be it. Ship has sailed and I’m not even looking back.

    Joba and Hughes will be better than Santana and Beckett by the time they turns 24 or 25 and won’t cost 20 million / year.

    Keep the big three, fix the bullpen!

  254. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Bill,

    That means nothing.

    Could be posturing. What the Twins are really trying to decide is whether they would like to bend over and get railed up the a$$ by taking the Crisp deal or if Bill Smith would prefer to get on his knees, hum on Epstein’s balls, and then take his load to the eye in the Ellsbury deal.

    Crude, I know, but accurate, right?

  255. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    “George would have gotten this deal done…”

    why not think about this for a minute?

    is this really the standard we want to hold our trades to?

  256. Miles Roche December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    I LOVE YOUR LAST LINE!
    Well said, Peter.

  257. Andrew December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Pete makes the point that the Yanks were the best team in baseball during the second half. However, that was with lights-out Joba pitching the 7th and 8th. If the Yanks don’t upgrade the pen dramatically, they will be back to blowing leads before Mo.

    So the Red Sox sink 100 mil into a pitcher. At least they are putting their resources into the best pitcher in the game. The Yankees need Santana. They have to go get him. Why not throw in Jackson? Like they can’t sign an outfielder when a spot opens up?

    They are about to let the Red Sox get him for peanuts. And next year will be another 207 million dollar embarrassment.

  258. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    This trade will not go down.
    This is all preliminary posturing.
    Santana will go back to Twins.
    Their GM does not want to lose his job.
    They didn’t send him to Nashville for a bag of balls.

  259. Yoggis December 4th, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    For nearly a century we have witnessed the suffering of the Red Soxes, we can stand the few years/decades of their good fortunes as well. As a Yankee fan, I am not for simply being reactionary to each Red Sox moves. With or without Santana (would love to have him on board, if possible), I am looking forward to next season with a new manager and few new faces, for sure.

  260. G. Love December 4th, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    I wonder if Smith is willing to trade Johan to Boston for this package because he knows the love letter Gammons is going to write and talk about on ESPN in regards to the gritty gutty future hall of famers the Red Sox begrudgingly gave up in this deal as constituted.

    Gammons will write what a bitter pill it was for the Red Sox to swallow to give up their amazing best CF in baseball in Crisp and how Lester is Andy Pettite and how the other guys are generally spoken of as future hall of famers.

    He’ll wax poetic about how Boston doesn’t want to pay Johan the money, but the Yankees have set the market in baseball with their reckless spending and those poor geniuses in Boston are just doing what it takes to keep up.

    Meanwhile Gammons will be laughing himself silly that the Sox just got the best pitcher in baseball for this lot.

  261. Jason December 4th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Kill-Schill,

    I would do that trade in a second, but to me, it looks like they’re starting to balk at actually Hughes.

    This isn’t a bad thing. It’d be nice to have that #1 in the postseason, but if we don’t get Santana, that’s fine. Wang-Pettitte-Hughes-Chamberlain-Kennedy-Mussina plus the offense is still one hell of a team.

  262. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    raymagnetic,

    torre could not have just “pulled the team off the field.” if he could have, he would have. it was discussed quite a bit after the game.

    obviously, your reading comprehension level is low at best. at no point did i say the twins made the deal simply to spite hank. i said his announcement didn’t help things at all. care to argue otherwise?

    cashman did what he could. at no point did i say otherwise. he made an offer and stood by it. that’s fine.

    doesn’t change the fact that the reigning world series champs just got an awful lot better. are you missing that point, along with every other i’ve made?

    i’m all set as far as discussions with you go, thanks. enjoy your idiocy

    The obligatory you’re an idiot post by Kasey. Figured it would come sooner or later.

    Article right here about Torre regretting not pulling team off the field. He probably doesn’t know the rules either however. http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....ml?ref=rss

    Please explain to me why a business owner/someone who runs a business would deliberately take a lesser deal from someone else because of what one owner says. If you could possible tell me how taking a worst deal would stick it to Hank I’d love to hear it. It’s not like he’s prohibiting the Yankees from making the playoffs. I don’t get it but I’m not as world traveled and knowledgable as you I suppose.

    I don’t care how much better the world champs may be with Satana. The best teams don’t always win. Should the Marlins have beaten the Yankees? Should Saint Louis have beaten the Tigers?

  263. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    You gonna take that hsit MEL?

  264. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Chicago Dave,

    No, that isn’t hte case because Ellsbury (like it or not) is perceived as being considerably more valuable than Melky.

    Bucholz and Hughes cancel eachother out.

    Lowrie, like it or not, is well regarded as well as a 2B prospect, or so I read.

    The Yankees have to put someone else in there if they want to make the trade and it ain’t going to be just Marquez. It will have to be Tabata, Jackson, or Horne, or a combo of one plus marquez. simple as that.

  265. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Oh please Brian, give it a break.

    How is he “injecting himself” into the Winter Meetings? He is in Tampa, not Nashville.

    If Bill Smith wants to take a lesser package because he had a hissy fit with Hank Steinbrenner, who is he hurting? He’s hurting his own franchise. He’s not hurting the Yankees.

    The Yankees will still be in the thick of things next season. Its not exactly a “bad” team in 2008.

    Meanwhile, Smith will have to explain to his fan base how he gave away Johan Santana.

    It has nothing to do with personalities. If it did, these guys wouldn’t stay in jobs for long.

    He asked for too much from the Yankees and the Yankees didn’t give in. That’s what its all about.

    Don’t give me this peer stuff. Hank Steinbrenner has never even talked to Bill Smith during this process.

    Its interesting to see you come on here and discuss a guy you know ZERO about.

    He has had an off-season thus far in which he has brought everybody who is important to the success of the team back. Even Arod, a guy he ripped on a helluva lot more than he did on Bill Smith. That’s a bad off-season.

    Thinking a GM is “spiting” the Yankees is sheer comedy. His problem will be trying to sell that deal to his fan base. That’s going to be a big problem for him.

    Especially when the leading columnist in his city (Christianson) is already on his case.

  266. Catherine December 4th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    Can we just all relax. With the HORRIBLE pitching situation we had last year we finished 2 games behind Boston. Now, if they get Santana they will obviously have really improved their already strong rotation. But let’s not forget, regardless of who we land, we also are improving. We got back our FA, Pettitte is coming back with I guaruntee some extra fire for #27, our big 3 will be in the rotation and will FLOURISH under Girardi. Let’s relax. As everyone said when Boras said Arod was unsure about the future of the Yankees…”They aren’t the Royals for God’s sake, they’re the Yankees!”

    There are 3 things you can be positive about in life; death, taxes, and great Yankees baseball. I am excited to start growing the new batch of Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Bernie, and Pettitte

  267. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    “PLEASE SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE YANKEES WOULDN’T CONSIDER THIS DEAL OR OFFER A COUNTER-PROPOSAL THAT REPLACED MARQUEZ WITH ALBERTO GONZALES?”

    I did already.

    Marquez and Horne are in the next group of pitchers behind the big three. They could contribute in the pen as early as this year, and Horne at least is one of those great-stuff-if-he-can-learn-control guys.

    If the Sox can trade Lester, Crisp’s contract, a guy who _might_ project as a starting 2b, and a random AA middle reliever…

    WHY SHOULD THE YANKEES GET HELD UP FOR SO MUCH MORE????

    This is the point. This is why the Yankees don’t make this deal.

    Also…Lowrie and AG are totally different…I doubt the Twins WANT Gonzalez.

  268. marc December 4th, 2007 at 2:39 pm

    Catherine, good points.

  269. Frank Discussion December 4th, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    If Boston really wants to pony up 260 million for Santana, so be it, I’d rather be patient and develop the talent this team already has. Sure, I’d like to have obtained Santana, but at what price ? IMO Cashman and Hank played this well, as the starting rotation isn’t only one issue that needs to be addressed. Nothing is written in stone regards the AL East, and with the talent the Yankees have, NOTHING should be conceded. Too many variables in this game, not to mention the fact that we have a new coach, which could be a considerable factor.

    Regards Minnesota, I have some nice oceanfront property in North Dakota you might be interested in…

  270. Bill from NJ December 4th, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    99% done meaning coming to an agreement, not the actual contract language, physicals, having santana physically sign the paperwork, etc.

    I’m talking about coming to an agreement to a deal (i.e. Arod, posada & the yanks this offseason). My god, it took about 2 weeks for Posada to actually make everything official, but the deal was already agreed up way before that.

    I can’t beleive I just had to explain all that to you people.

  271. Pinstriped Playa December 4th, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    i don’t care who’s pitching – in ANY inning .. if the Yankees don’t learn how to execute a bunt or a hit and run when they need it, these guys are going to be watching post-season baseball on the television again anyway!

    Johan or no Johan, the best move the Yankees made this winter is Girardi!!

  272. Dave December 4th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Pete,
    The worst that can happen is the sox destroy the twins trading a salary dump, a decent prospect and two mediocre prospects for the best pitcher in baseball. Then, add him to a rotation with the runner up for the cy young, the best japanese pitcher in history and one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. Oh yea and then they win the world series and become a dynasty because all of those pitchers are under the age of 30 and are signed for five or more yrs. Thas pretty bad.

    And the yanks have the exact same team they had when they were knocked out of the ALDS in game four. But now ian kennedy is healthy wahoo. There is no way this rumor can be true yet, for some reason, Mike and maddog are talking like the deal is already in place. Im sorry but passing up phil hughes (a potential ace) and melky cabrera (a starting centerfielder) plus a solid prospect for Lester (a possible number three starter) crisp (a salary dump) and two unknown prospects is hard to believe. The twins are supposed to be a good evaluator of talent – hughes is better than lester no matter how u cut it, melky has been far beter than crisp the last two yrs and is making 8 million less over the next two. These prospects the sox are offering are in A ball and dont have great numbers – they cant change the fact that the yanks are offering the better package. This cant have any truth to it, the twins arent this stupid, are they?

    Yes, bringing up horne, mcclutchen, betances, etc. in relief is prolly better than signing hawkins because hawkins isnt good. However, these pitchers wont be up until mid yr at the earliest. Signing percival, cordero, Iwase or riske would have been much smarter – then, we can actually have a decent pitcher in the bullpen for a full yr rather than promote someone from within in July or August and pray they work out. I dunno, sounds better to me but im sure cashman is far smarter than I am. I mean he passed on gagne which turned out to be a brilliant move – what a genius? If only we had that kind of brain working for us when we signed farnsworth, IgaWA, Pavano, wright, johnson, brown, weaver, womack, re-signed Moose for two yrs of crap and when we traded sheff and johnson (2 future hall of famers) for a half of a season of one good player (The Viz.) Oh yea, we did have that brain. So If you compare the positive moves to the negatives – yea, cashman is an idiot and doesnt know what he is doing. But im sure he has learned alot by passing on gagne – lets just keep bringing that little nugget up and ignore all the idiotic moves in the past.

  273. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Catherine
    December 4th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

    There are 3 things you can be positive about in life; death, taxes, and great Yankees baseball. I am excited to start growing the new batch of Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Bernie, and Pettitte

    ________________________________________________
    Catherine, you can add a fourth certainty in life…Trolls.

  274. Leonard December 4th, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    What is this, Defcon 6?

    Stop panicking.

    I can’t take this crap no mo.

  275. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 2:44 pm

    “No, that isn’t hte case because Ellsbury (like it or not) is perceived as being considerably more valuable than Melky.

    Bucholz and Hughes cancel eachother out.”

    It’s true that Ellsbury, Buchholz and Lowrie would beat Hughes, Melky and some punk.

    But Hughes, Melky and some punk is better than Ellsbury, Lowrie and some punk (Masterson). Apparently, Baseball America considers Lowrie to project as a guy like Loretta. Solid, not great. Ellsbury won’t have the power to be an elite CFer, though he’ll probably be better than Melky.

  276. Catherine December 4th, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    The only way the Sox came to beat the Yankees, is they became them.

    Let the Sox do what they want. We are going to have a great season ahead. For the first time in a while we will get to be the underdogs, we will get to watch our OWN players grow, and we will be able to see the beginning of a new generation of Yankees.

    Imagine mid-season when Hughes is on the mound, maybe a Gardner or a Jackson running around in center, some young relievers coming in. It will be such a great way to open the new stadium…with a new team; anchored by veterans and growing. What could you ask for? A true Yankees like Pettitte mentoring the 3 young, great pitchers of our future? A workhorse like Arod running before game workouts with Melky and Cano, and maybe more. We have a great situation. We have old and new. Who better to learn from than true Yankees? Get excited Yankee fans. This is the future. In 95 and 96 everyone was nervous when a skinny shortstop named Derek Jeter was on the field and quite, reserved Andrew Eugene Pettitte was on the mound. How about when Constantino Martinez took over for the Great Donnie Baseball? Seems like that worked out ok….

  277. YankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    “personalities do matter”… ? are you serious?
    this is business. any gm should be able to do a deal with the man that stole his wife if it made his team better.
    get a clue.

  278. Deep to Left December 4th, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers??

  279. Peter Rabbit December 4th, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    I was listening to Mike and the Dawg 20 minutes ago and they were talking about the Santana trade to the Bosox like it actually happened.

    I guess it’s a foregone conclusion now?

  280. S.o.S.27 December 4th, 2007 at 2:56 pm

    CHICAGO DAVE-A recent history lesson…

    I’m sure you all remember when the Yanks acquired A-Rod from Texas, right? When that happened, the whole league breathed a collective sigh and prepared themselves for the coming of the newest Yankee dynasty. Nowhere was that feeling more apparent than in Boston, where Sox fans were infuriated that the Yanks had “stolen” A-Rod from right under their noses, and they questioned whether their team could ever again compete with the Yanks, nevermind get to a World Series.

    Sound familiar?

    Great point. Even Benifer(affleck) came out and said that they might as well give the Yanks the trophy now.

    That just tells you of how different it is to win when your expected to go all the way.

    As sj44 stated earlier,now the bullseye is on their backs and we’re under the radar.

    Dont worry Yankee fans #27 IS COMMING IN 08. Go place your bets.

  281. The Dude December 4th, 2007 at 2:56 pm

    Pete, no more reporting on a Lester/Crisp/Hokum for Santana deal. It violates the Journal News’ TOS in regards to posting “obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information” on a blog. I don’t want to see you get in trouble, pal.

  282. Bill December 4th, 2007 at 3:00 pm

    I still think its a mistake not pulling the trigger. Hopefully, this is just a gambit on the twins part to get the yankees to cough up players they aren’t willing to and that the gamble on the yankees part pays off and they get him for less.

    I’ve read that Alan Horne projects to a number 5 starter and Marquez is generally thought to be less of prospect then Horne. I know trading so many of your major league ready prospects for one player weakens the farm system, limits their flexibility to do other deals for bullpen or other help either now or in july/august but this isn’t an ordinary player. We’ve been looking for an ace ever since Clemens bolted for Houston and haven’t found one. The true elite pitchers rarely become available and when they do they are very expensive…its a simple supply and demand equation. Joba and Hughes project out to be potential front line starters but how many prospects really reach their ceiling? If not Santana, tell me who the yankees are going to acquire for less? Does anyone expect Halladay, Lackey, Peavey, Webb, Verlander, Sabathia or Beckett to become available anytime soon and not cost as much to acquire as Santana would? Are there other pitchers that are WITHOUT A DOUBT better than Wang over the next five years? In my opinion, if we don’t trade for Santana, we have to hope that Joba or Hughes reach their ceiling or we’ll be looking for that ace for a long time. A rotation five deep but made up of all 2′s and 3′s wins a lot of regular season games when supported by an offense like the Yankees but its not a recipe for advancing far into the playoffs.

    The Twins’ asking price is indeed very steep. But I really can’t picture the Yankees lamenting the loss of Horne or Marquez five years down the road. I can easily picture them being one and out in the playoffs a lot and still looking for that elite ace five years down the road.

  283. YankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    i think horne could be a lot better than a #5.
    right now, he’s probably our next-best pitcher after kennedy (who’s close to coming up) & could be called up mid-year.
    sounds like the twins were asking a lot from us and not so much from sawx.

  284. Brian (Red Sox Fan) December 4th, 2007 at 3:16 pm

    SJ …. you know your baseball, but I disagree with your evaluation of the business end.

    (1) Hank signed his own FAs by giving them more money and years than anyone else would have. This will not get him Exec of the Year.
    (2) Hank set the Winter Meeting tone with his pronouncements from Tampa. He’s made the yankees a difficult team to measure and to deal with. It’s one thing to fool the press. It’s another thing to condescend towards people you are trying to make a deal with.
    (3) The Twins have a lot more leverage than ARod did. Hank misjudged that fact, and pissed them off in the process.

    And his demeanor WILL have a residual effect anytome he climbs imto the sand box with peers. Right now, his people skills limiy him to the dictator role. “Schmoozing” is still important when makin deals.

  285. NYY December 4th, 2007 at 3:33 pm

    In 95 and 96 everyone was nervous when a skinny shortstop named Derek Jeter was on the field and quite, reserved Andrew Eugene Pettitte was on the mound. How about when Constantino Martinez took over for the Great Donnie Baseball? Seems like that worked out ok….

    People seem to forget the difference between now and 1995-96. In 95-96 their arch rival Sox have never won a World Series in million years. They were not much of a competetion. 2008 is a different story.

  286. Bill December 4th, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    “i think horne could be a lot better than a #5.
    right now, he’s probably our next-best pitcher after kennedy (who’s close to coming up) & could be called up mid-year.”

    Two opposing GM’s described Horne to Jon Heyman as a #5 starter type. I’m sure his ceiling is higher and their word isn’t necessarily gospel but that’s at least an opinion out there. Kennedy isn’t thought of a top 3 starter by most unbiased analysts so I think calling Horne a major league ready #5 and their next best high level pitching prospect isn’t contradictory. He might very well have a respectable career but I don’t really see NY missing him.

    We can all bitch and moan that we think the yankee offer is better than the redsox one but at the end of the day, our opinion doesn’t matter. its bill smith’s opinion that does. he might be bluffing and just trying to extract more, but holding out is a high risk strategy. I just don’t think we want to lose Santana over Horne or Marquez. There’s just not another Santana to turn to.

    And I think I have a real knack for replying to threads that are already done. This was probably pointless.

  287. Grant December 4th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    The best team in baseball for the last 4 months of the regular season, not the best team in october.

  288. Chris Serico December 4th, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    Pete, no more reporting on a Lester/Crisp/Hokum for Santana deal. It violates the Journal News’ TOS in regards to posting “obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information” on a blog. I don’t want to see you get in trouble, pal.

    Blog post of the day, courtesy of The Dude.

    The Dude abides.

  289. Bronx Bomber December 4th, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    yeah, well…thats just like…your opinion man.


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