Rumors fly but facts are few
-
- December
- 4
“Trust none of what you hear. And less of what you see. This is what will be, this is what will be.”
Those are lyrics to the Bruce Springsteen song Magic and they should be the anthem of the Winter Meetings.
In the case of the Yankees vs. the Red Sox, there is no verdict. Rumors are flying, many of them imaginary.
The Red Sox let it leak that that Minnesota requested the medical records of Jon Lester. That could be an indication that something is close or merely another clumsy method to try and shake another prospect out of Brian Cashman.
Good luck with that. Brian Cashman was the picture of cool in his suite yesterday, sitting back in a chair with white adidas kicks, jeans and a sweatshirt. He has lasted 11 years in this job, about 10 more than anybody expected when he started. What’s the worse that can happen?
If Minnesota is willing to trade the great Johan Santana for a replacement level center fielder and three prospects, good for them. If Boston is willing to sink another $100 million into a pitcher, good for them as well.
If the Yankees do nothing whatsoever, they bring back the team that was the best in baseball for the final four months of the season. Only iith more innings out of Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes.
The bullpen needs work (Cashman can’t actually have that much faith in Krazy Kyle, can he?) and it would be nice to have an actual first baseman instead of 1,765 candidates. But those are issues that can he addressed.
As Cashman said yesterday, Alan Horne, Steven White and Jeff Marquez could be converted to the bullpen just like Chamberlain was. Better to try that trio than to sink $4 million a year into the likes of LaTroy Hawkins.
So relax a little. Take a cue from your GM, the worst than can happen is that the Yankees will be a heck of a team.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, December 4th, 2007 at 1:18 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Agreed Pete.
Pete, we can only hope.
It’s a chess game, to be sure. Thanks for the update, Peter.
One other thing: I’d be shocked if Krazy Kyle wasn’t traded before the season starts, so why should C-Money badmouth him?
Thanks for the voice of reason, Pete. Another example of why your blog is the best in the business.
raymagnetic,
the obligatory music insult! fantastic!
1. maybe santana will be worse at fenway. he’s still the best pitcher in the game and a beckett-santana rotation is tough to beat. his ERA at fenway is based on 15 innings. hardly enough to make a case that he’ll be worse there.
2. the umpires weren’t stopping the game because of the midges. it’s not up to torre to “pull the team off the field.†he can plead his case to the umps but the call is theirs, not his. nice try, though. i love how the blame comes back to torre.
3. certainly money and the tradition of winning don’t help. but if you think it’s got nothing to do with loudmouth ownership, you’re insane.
4. at no point did i say that the twins request of hughes/cabrera/kennedy or the package including horne and jackson was reasonable and the yankees should have caved. i’ll repeat that, AT NO POINT did i say that. i said they should include hughes, they did. after that, i made no comment about a need to meet the twins demands. i made one post saying that i, personally, would have thrown horne in but AT NO POINT did i criticize cashman for refusing to cave.
and how, exactly, do the yankees win the war if boston gets to keep their best prospects AND gets johan santana? how is that the yankees winning the war?
“or merely another clumsy method to try and shake another prospect out of Brian Cashman”
That’s my vote. Theo would love to help the Twinkies out by making the Yankees give up another prospect. The Yankees’ offer is already better than the RS, don’t throw in both Hughes & IPK along with Melky.
Hey, we are relaxed.
The worst that could happen is that we break up the holy trinity.
KEEP THE KIDS.
Thanks Peter for speaking the truth. The Yankees in my opinion would be much better off securing the bullpen. See what the Twins want for Nathan, See what Oakland wants for street. A strong bullpen, combined with our offense should be better than last year..
Pete, as always you are the voice of reason – one thing though, is it just me or are the players the Red Sox are offering for Santana less than what the Yankees were willing to part with? Why would the Twins want to stick it to the Yankees? Something doesn’t seem quite right.
Agreed. Everyone kept saying “Yankees brought back the same team.” The “same team” was the best team in baseball leading up to the post-season.
Fix the bullpen. We don’t need anymore starting pitching because we’ll have Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy ready next year. Hell, Moose might “surprisingly” come back in shape, who knows.
If Twins are stupid enough to think Lester can replace Santana, good for them. Good luck with that. We’ll keep the big three and have three dominating starters price controlled for many years to come.
I’d LOVE to have Santana, but I’d LOVE to keep Hughes and Kennedy too. Those 2 are legit pitchers and if the Twins do want to give up Santana for what the Sox are offering then fine… We all know that by buying players is not a sure fire way to win championships… We have great talent that can be a force for us for years to come…
The twins are not going to make that deal.
They can’t do it and save face unless they get both ellsbury and lester.
This whole medical records thing is a joke.
Of course the twins put in that request – his medical records will stretch to hundred of pages and will require dozens of hours of evaluation by oncologists.
They are doing this to get the yankees to panic. Doesn’t look like that is going to happen
The yankees are going about this the right way.
They still need to be better then last year.If anybody notice it was our starting pitching not bullpen that was bad last year in the regular and post season.Guess it’s Haren because they won’t go into the season with three rookies.
Sweeney on M&MD is reporting that Yanks feel Santana is going to Boston.
kasey…once again you show your @$$, congrats.
Pete…agreed, Hawkins is NOT Yankee material, stick with the kids.
Don’t sweat the small stuff. Kasey’s opinion duly noted and tossed in the trash where is belongs,,,the Yankees are going to strong in 2008, 2009 AND 2010 and we will give the Sux all they can handle…..over and OUT !
Hello all, hello Pete-
Is it possible that, if Minnesota wants to make a big deal even bigger, the Yanks could add some more prospects and get Joe Nathan in return? I heard last week that he may be shopped. Also, may I say, all praise to the Cash-Man. I think he is so cool because he is confident in the young arms that will be coming up in 2008 and 2009 if he makes the deal or not. Also, how good is Austin Jackson? What’s his ETA to the majors? And finally, why is trading Melky seen as a given and not much of a loss? He is young, improving and solid defensively. I was lambasted here for commenting about his close friendship with Robby Cano and the positive impact their relationship and energy have on the team, but I think that should not be forgotten. Thanks for reading my 2 cents; go Yanks (save Phil Hughes!)
It’s a win in that they Yanks didn’t give up the whole farm when the Twins were willing to take less from elsewhere.
Amen Pete!
I admit, I can’t stop refreshing this website as well as mlbtraderumors.com hoping to get the latest news on Johan, but I have reached my limit. I almost don’t even want Johan anymore, Haren either. The guy I want (unrealistically albeit) is Bedard. I also would almost rather wait for CC and hope to sign him as a FA.
We made a great offer and that’s that. If the Sox get him for less, nothing we can do. We do have a sick offensive lineup and many young MLB ready players, all we need is some consistency in the pen and we should be set.
Agreed, I think everyone is getting carried away with the whole Santana trade. The Boston news media is already proclaiming that the trade is done, and that the Sox will win the next 20 World Series, and finally put the whole rivalry to bed.
Being a charter member of the “Get Santana” Fan Club and someone who knows a bit about the Yankees Farm System, I agree with Pete.
I don’t get fleeced by the Twins. If that means he goes to Boston, so be it.
Its tough enough to give up Hughes, which should have been the clincher in the deal.
However, when Smith continues to ask for more and more, at some point, you just have to pass.
Sweeney Murti on the FAN just reported the Yankees believe he is going to Boston.
Yeah man all will be well, we have a heck of a team. When merely a month ago it seemed no one would be back, everyones back and back with a young, hungry, motivated manager.
We got to face it: the Yanks could be off much worse – without A-Rod, Posada, Rivera and Pettitte.
This Johan Santana trade is a win/win or lose/lose situation for me. If we get Johan, we lose Hughes. If we don’t get Johan, we don’t lose Hughes! I really don’t know if I’m for or against the trade.
kasey,
Please don’t be offended, but did you know it’s customary netiquette to put ‘Re-post’ when you copy and paste a post from another thread?
Peter –
Have they kicked the tires on Xavier Nady for 1B? He puts up about .800 OPS and can play the corner OF positions as well. Less power than Shelley, but a more well-rounded hitter.
And maybe Kielty to split time with all three OFers if Melky gets moved?
A voice of reason.
Twins can’t do that deal and come to their fans with a straight face.
One guy from the Mayo clinic in Rochester will get on TV and talk about Lester’s cancer, and that will be it for Bill Smith.
Both sides have to feel pain for a deal like this. I think the Twins ask for Bucholtz, Ellsbury, and Lowrie, and see what happens. That is more in line with the Yankees’ offer.
Worse case: same team as last year, with younger pitching with a great upside.
Gotta agree with Pete this time. Time to stop fighting over Santana and be true Yankee fans again (i.e. look forward to rooting for whatever roster we end up with, as, no matter what happens, it’s still bound to be a pretty decent club).
The voice of reason!!
And this is not the same team. It is a better team. We won’t have American Idle starting the first game of the season. Our starting rotation is better now than it was last year. I have no doubt we can handle the soxs even with Santana in the rotation. The only question is will other teams.
Good job Pete. I wholeheartedly agree. Worst case – really good team, 3 young stud starters (4 including Wang), and an extra $150 million to spend in the next few years.
I don’t think that you know what replacement level means, because Coco Crisp is definitely not a replacement level center fielder.
“Agreed. Everyone kept saying “Yankees brought back the same team.†The “same team†was the best team in baseball leading up to the post-season.”
Exactly. And our young guys will have a full season under their belt unlike this year. If the Yankees can improve their bullpen, whether it be using guys they already have, or acquiring people, I think they will be just fine next year.
Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level” means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.
Jeters running the track at my school again…
well said pete
People seem to be ignoring the fact that Santana has a horrible ERA at Fenway (not saying he is going to have a bad year, but probably not as dominant as he was at Minnesota), and also Schilling/Wakefield arent getting any younger. I’m not sold on Matsuzaka; don’t really think he’s as good as advertised.
“Jeters running the track at my school again…”
Which supermodel is he chasing this time? HA!!!
JBRO,
The million-dollar question is, “Who’s he running with?”
JBRO, go ask him what he thinks of all this and then report back. Go!
Mike,
Small sample size, bad start rookie year, that horse has been beaten 10x over.
“Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level†means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.”
No. It means you can get his production from a AAAA type of player. Which you can’t. He’s not a star, but he’s certainly not replacement level.
I don’t see how that wouldnt be an awesome deal for the sox. Who cares if they sink another 100 mil into a cy young pitcher for relatively nothing? Sounds perfect to me if i were a sox fan. Of course, I don’t think it will happen with these particular players but I cant see why we should brush it off if minny is dumb enough to do it. Money means practically nothing to fans of big market teams like ny and bos. We dont care what you spend, as long as ticket prices dont skyrocket.
If the Twins wouldn’t capitulate the minute Hughes was on the table, they were never gonna make a deal with the Yanks. I hope they enjoy their craptastic next several years.
If nothing else, we all got an education in MLB trades. They’re not all this crazy, because usually it’s two teams that want to make a deal or they wouldn’t be talking in the first place. This one was more like a hostile take over, complete with white knights and poison pills.
In any event, time to move on. Trades do not win the WS.
JBRO,
what high school is this?
More Rob Neyer:
Rob Neyer: (1:15 PM ET ) You’re not stupid, Mark. I might have been over-exuberant a few moments ago, as I also downplayed Ellsbury’s potential a few months ago. He’s benefiting from a halo effect, due to his performance in October. But he does not project as a big star.
I found that very interesting.
“this deal isn’t happening…”
well, if the posts citing murti are right, the yankees tend to disagree with you all.
if the yankees think the boston deal is happening, i’m inclined to defer to them.
i guess the yankees do “win” in that they didn’t get fleeced by the twins. cashman stood his ground, and that’s fine.
here’s how the red sox win. they ALSO didn’t get fleeced by the twins, and they added the best pitcher in baseball to a team that won the world series last year.
so, in terms of “winning,” i guess it’s all relative. but, when you’re the yankees and all you have to show for this vaunted offense is a couple of first-round exits the last two years, i guess you take “wins” where you can get them.
Not that I care, but who is gonna play center for the sox if they deal crisp? Ellsbury?
Thank goodness GOTWINS has found this thread yet.
His isoP in AAA sort of indicates he’ll never touch the Granderson/Sizemore tier of CFs.
Pete,
I know that the Yankees can use any of those three guys (Marquez, White, Horne) as a converted reliever, but what about Ross Ohlendorf? He showed promise late last season…is he going to be converted back into a starter, or is he possibly in the mix as well?
Kasey, thanks for the repost – it was excellent to have to look at that nay saying garbage twice!
In no instance should the Yankees panic and trade away the farm. If the Twins are really pissed enough at Hank (which I doubt) and they want to take an inferior deal, so be it. That is out of the Yanks control.
The reality of the situation is that the package the Yanks are offering is superior. I don’t care about Lowrie as he projects decently with the bat, but will be brutal with the glove. I thought the Twins valued defense. And Lester? Have fun watching him walk the park and get lifted after the fifth.
That’s great value for the guy you all refer to as ‘the best pitcher in baseball.’ Sure.
As others have said the Twins never wanted to make a deal with the Yankees. OTherwise after they fullfilled their request of adding Hughes, that would have sealed it. Instead they continue to ask for more prospects. I still don’t understand how they look to be taking such a crap package from the soxs.
My question (revisiting a tired topic from yesterday) is, if the Red Sox complete this deal for Santana, will we hear another word from Peter Gammons about the “need” to re-do Beckett’s contract?
I guess this is a question more about the vacuity/perfidy of Peter Gammons than anything else Hopefully the question will be moot.
kasey – Stop obsessing over Boston. That’s what Boston fans are famous for doing (with the Yanks). Don’t be like them.
1. Santana does not have “awful ERA” at Fenway. that’s based on two starts six years ago…before he became the pitcher he now is. cheez.
2. Boston is upping their offer of Lester, Crisp, Lowrie (the blue chip in this deal) and Masterson. probably another one of their top prospects. (and that group, cause of Lowrie and Masterson, beats the Yankees best offer)
3. I’d be highly surprised if Crisp stays in MN…probably being packaged with Nathan….
so what does jetes run?? laps, wind sprints?
you gotta hustle to first to get to third on one hit with those supermodels…
Brent I think it is already a given that Ross will be competing for a spot in the pen. I think Cash was naming other players who would be converted.
Crisp is probably underrated by a lot of people because he has an average center field bat; Crisp is, by most metrics, one of the best defensive center fielders in the game, and that’s certainly well-above replacement-level for a center fielder.
You can debate whether he’s worth the money he’s being paid, but he’s not the piece of crap a lot of people think he is.
That said, I still try to get Ellsbury in addition to Lester if I’m the Twins. Crisp has no further upside (aside from breaking out offensively, which doesn’t seem likely at his age), whereas Ellsbury is one of the better young outfielders in the game.
I know that the Yankees can use any of those three guys (Marquez, White, Horne) as a converted reliever, but what about Ross Ohlendorf? He showed promise late last season…is he going to be converted back into a starter, or is he possibly in the mix as well?
Ross is staying in the bullpen. There are no plans to switch him back.
How is Smith going to explain to his fans we traded Santana for….4, B to C prospects a bunch of no bodies. Don’t you need 1, #1 prospect or atleast a very good pitcher since Garza and Santana are going to be gone. What happened to Smiths line “I need 3 impact players for him”...haha. I guess Hughes is now garbage.
perfidy?
From Dictionary.com
per·fi·dy /ˈpÉœrfɪdi/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[pur-fi-dee] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -dies.
1.deliberate breach of faith or trust; faithlessness; treachery: perfidy that goes unpunished.
2.an act or instance of faithlessness or treachery.
[Origin: 1585–95;
Don’t the yanks have Humberto Sanchez healthy this year? If I’m not mistaken, he was basically the main component of the Sheffield deal, and based on varying accounts at the time, projected to be a pitcher in the CC Sebathia mold (and NO. I’m not comparing talent, CC is obviously far better), but Many projected him as a potential heir apparent to MO. Could he set-up? or if not set-up, maybe be useful in the pen?
Main thing to remember that no matter what happens we will still be competitive. We got the best 3B, C, SP, RP free agents out there. We have 3 really good young pitchers who’ve already been initiated. Just tweak (o.k. build) the bullpen and you will have a good team. We finished two games behind Boston and had the second best record in all of baseball. No, it did not end how would have liked, but pressure got to the team in the post season more than anything.
We have a new manager and the team will have a little bounce in their step.
Out with the old, in with the new. Perfect timing with the new stadium set to open.
And that should’ve been “Thank goodness GOTWINS has NOT found this thread yet. Although by the time I finish typing, he probably would’ve.
Same team as last year? Not quite. Remember, the pitching staff will be greatly improved.
What was the rotation at the start of last season? If I recall, it included Carl Pavano—which is fine by me—but then he, believe it or not, GOT HURT! He strained a ligament in his right elbow after two starts.
Ike, I think that was a nice way of saying Humberto likes to eat.
I think everyone is conveniently overlooking how devastating a Santana trade to Boston could prove for the following reasons:
1) The Yankees have to win NOW. Their positions players are old, and they have very few position players with major league talent in their farm system to replace them. And the few they do are year away from major-league readiness. Austin Jackson is at least a year away and perhaps, two years away. Tabata is 19 and perhaps, 2 to 3 years away
Meanwhile, on the major league roster, their youngest starter apart from Cano and Melky, the youngest starter is 32. The outfield consists of players 33 and older and in decline.
2) However much promise Hughes, Joba, and IPK show as starters, the Yankees aren’t going to let any one of them throw over 175 innings. That means that Mussina or Igawa has to contribute 100 innings or more.
3) With Santana, the Red Sox lock up the AL East for the forseeable future, leaving the Yankees only entry into the playoffs the Wild Card through the remainder of Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte’s, and Jorge Posada’s career.
4) The Red Sox get to retain BOTH Ellsbury and Buchholz, the cornerstones of their future.
“No. It means you can get his production from a AAAA type of player. Which you can’t. He’s not a star, but he’s certainly not replacement level.”
It’s defined as 80% of the league-average offensive production, while providing good defense. Crisp is above average in terms of range at the position, sure. He’s also below average offensively, but not at 80%.
He was, for Boston, league average at best in terms of OPS.
I don’t think Sanchez is going to be healthy right off the bat—you’ll probably see him back in the minors (either AA or AAA) around mid-season, and the Yankees will probably allow him to build his strength back and find his stuff again. It’s not totally inconceivable to see Sanchez playing a factor come September, but I personally think he’s still a year away, whether he ends up in the bullpen or not.
Lowrie and Masterson are the second coming, eh? The grand delusion continues…
It’s bad enough that Bill Smith thinks he’s getting future HOFers from the Sox in exchange for Santana. Now their fans are believing the same BS.
Best of luck watching your team swirl down the toilet over the next few years. Maybe you can trade Joe Nathan straight up for J.D. Drew next. Haven’t you heard, Drew is the modern-day Ted Williams? You guys should really nab him, too…
1. they’re not going to “re-do” beckett’s contract. as many have said, this isn’t football. in all likelihood, they’ll tell beckett that he’ll be taken care of when his contract runs out, or they’ll make a strong effort to sign him to a big extension. the fact that he’s now in a position to win the next four world series probably appeals to beckett, as well.
2. once again, i never said the yankees SHOULD trade away the farm. i said they ought to include hughes if it gets the deal done. they did, it didn’t. at that point, their choice to set a deadline was shrewd business. hank’s choice to announce it was not.
3. they’ll go after haren hard after losing out on santana. you may still need to prepare your goodbye kleenex box for hughes and cabrera.
4. SJ44 – a few days ago you were saying if boston gets santana the yankees should prepare themselves to start the season eight games back. now you’ll “take your chances” with these yankees. pettitte’s return is that big a difference maker, huh? i sure hope so.
mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Thank goodness GOTWINS has found this thread yet.
haha
stupid yankee fans..
it is impossible to talk baseball with you people
this is such a load of BS. How are the twins going to trade santana to the sox for lester, crisp and some other prospects? THEY AREN’T EVEN GETTING BUCHOLZ OR ELLSBURY! Yankees offer is way better and the twins are beyond stupid. absolute steal for boston, and they’re going to win the world series once again. unbelievable.
Kill-Schill(ing):
I love you, man. But come back in from the ledge.
Then why don’t you go find a Twins blog and do it there.
Masterson isn’t that good. Don’t drink the Kool Aid. I watched Masterson pitch 4 times this past season. Ok, not great. Not an elite prospect by any means. The Yankees have 6 arms in their system better than Masterson.
Lowrie is a solid prospect. Crisp? Ridiculous to consider him something special. There are defensive CF (which is all he is) available for less than 4 million per year.
Lester? They already have Liriano from the left side. They don’t have a power arm from the right side. That could have been Hughes.
If that’s what the Twins want to settle for, that’s on them.
I don’t give up my entire farm system (if I’m Cashman) for Santana.
Great pitcher but, NOBODY is worth that.
The added benefit. We no longer have to hear Theo and Lucchino whine about money and how they can’t be a “Uber team, like the Yankees”, everytime a deal takes place.
The Red Sox whining is all over after this deal.
Until the rules change, you still have to compete on the field.
Does it make them more formidable? Absolutely. Does it mean the Yankees should just fold up shop? Absolutely not.
Ike I heard a few months ago that he was throwing off flat ground. I would assume by now he is throwing off a mound. We might see him some time the middle of the season.
If I had 20 unused cars sitting in my backyard, I would still not donate one to 1-877 Kars for Kids.
Kill Schilling. You have hit it right now the head. Its cock eyed optimism. The Red Sox have secured a spot in the post season next year already ( if this rumor is true)
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
“this deal isn’t happening…â€
well, if the posts citing murti are right, the yankees tend to disagree with you all.
if the yankees think the boston deal is happening, i’m inclined to defer to them.
i guess the yankees do “win†in that they didn’t get fleeced by the twins. cashman stood his ground, and that’s fine.
here’s how the red sox win. they ALSO didn’t get fleeced by the twins, and they added the best pitcher in baseball to a team that won the world series last year.
so, in terms of “winning,†i guess it’s all relative. but, when you’re the yankees and all you have to show for this vaunted offense is a couple of first-round exits the last two years, i guess you take “wins†where you can get them.—————————your tone seems to indicate that you blame the yankees for boston getting santana – but what I want to know is what you think Cash could have done differently to alter the outcome? Me, personally, I think Bill Smith is a retard for making this deal.
Pete, stop sounding so sensible before Kasey’s let’s his wrath out on you. Anyway from the last thread last thread.
the obligatory music insult! fantastic! Kasey, I never insulted your music as I’ve never heard it. I said I would HATE to listen to it if it’s as jaded as you are.
I never stated anything about Santana’s ERA at Fenway. What I said was that most pitchers pitch worse in Fenway which is true. Look at the Red Sox’ pitcher’s ERA’s historically at Fenway then get back to me.
Torre could have pulled his team off the field and several players said they would have walked off the field if it were them pitching. I guess they also don’t know the rules either.
So are you saying that businesses would deliberately do a bad deal just to screw another business owner? This makes a lot of sense. That would be like Intel selling their chips to Microsoft for 50 cents on the dollar to screw Apple. Does that make sense to you?
and how, exactly, do the yankees win the war if boston gets to keep their best prospects AND gets johan santana? how is that the yankees winning the war?
So what do you suppose Cashman should have done or should do?
Yankees win the war by keeping all of their prospects and signing CC Sabathia or someone else next year.
In 2009 Shilling will be gone. Wakefield will be Wakefield. Timlin will be gone. Lugo will be Lugo. And the sox will have traded away their replacements in Masterson/Lester/Lowrie and will have to pay more money to replace them.
NY finished 2 games back last year with a bunch of games being started by call-up / fill in guys who really weren’t ready yet, and little bullpen. And significant slumps by a few key of their bats.
Starting the season with six starters who have legit experience and/or potential feels better to me than sending Carl Pavano out on opening day, starting a record number of rookie pitchers and having to leave what amounted to a AAA pitcher in a game long enough to have 4 consecutive HR knocked of him (in Fenway) because there’s nobody else good enough, ready enough, or bullpen-worthy enough to be in there in the first place or come in to bail him out.
Bullpen is a big point everyone’s making. Good point. Especially if Billy Beane wants as much for Haren as Minny wanted for Santana. Prospects besides the big 3 for Natahan or any number of guys who don’t have several seasons with 4+ERAs littering the back of their baseball card even if they have a ‘live arm’ like Kyle Farnsworth did.
These are two of the general reasons (SP/RP) why NY failed in the playoffs too. What NY doesn’t gain in the rotation this winter with a Santana or Haren type starter, they need to gain in the bullpen. Definitely one or the other if not both. Gaining an ace would be great but with Pettitte coming back, keeping the big 3 intact is not as bad a thing as it would have been.
But please … no more Clemens redux.
Great post Peter, good work taking us off the ledge!
Good gotwins, go and talk baseball with another twins fan, that is if you can find one.
Thanks for the voice of reason, Pete. Another example of why your blog is the best in the business.
I feel like I could have gotten this deal done…!
GOTWINS,
So you say stupid Yankee fans and then you expect us to talk baseball with you?
the red sox win this deal big time – get an ace, don’t give up anything that hurts to give up. the yankees lose only from a perspective that their main rival just added a second ace, whereas they yankees have two fewer than that. other than that, i respect their stance, and i trust that they know what they are doing. i would have included jackson or horne, but that’s just me.
the loser in this deal is the twins. they are about to give up the best pitcher in the game for a package that, if i were a twins fan, would not be palatable at all. the fact that only red sox fans think the package is appropriate for santana gives you a sense that the deal is one sided.
in a negotiation, both sides should be a little unhappy with the result. that’s how you know its a fair result.
because red sox fans are so magnanimous about the quality of the package they gave up is an indication they didn’t give up squat.
kill-schill(ing)
take that negative garbage elsewhere. girardi is going to lead this team to victory behind hughes’ 15 wins and chamberlain’s 17. kennedy will win 14, pettitte’s elbow will hold up all year long again and wang will suddenly figure out how to pitch on turf and in october.
nothin’ to worry about. we’ll all take our chances with one pseudo-ace, pettitte, and three rookies.
besides, santana won’t sign with boston because it’s a racist city. and if he does, he’ll suddenly transform from the best pitcher of his generation to a mediocre lefty because of fenway.
everything’s gonna be juuuuuust fine.
Mister Delaware…basically, yeah.
Maybe Humberto could be a Joba type call up in Sept? Isn’t he supposed to have power type stuff. Maybe I’m way off.
I don’t see the point in offering the same deal to the A’s for Haren. He’s not as good, why should he warrant the same deal? I would rather see the Yankees do nothing with the rotation and PLEASE get some bullpen.
You’re not talking baseball, you’re flinging insults.
REPOST:
Better see the psychiatrist about that passive-agreessive disorder you have there. It’s always the same. “I came here to talk about baseball†escalates into “STFUâ€.
So why do you come here when you know that your comments will bring heated replies? Because you want to tussle. If you want someone to agree with you that Liriano is better than Hughes you need to go somewhere else. Because even though it may be true, you’re not finding that here.
ray from Boston is the only one who has come in here and had civil discussions and even he tends to escalate sometimes, but he remembers that respect is a two-way street.
And I can’t believe I’m giving you a lecture like god-damn child.
My problem with this RS deal is that Twins aren’t even even demanding only the best from the Sox. (Bucholz or Ellsbury) All I’m hearing is Lester as the centerpiece…
FLAM,
Its University of Tampa, its like 3 miles from Legends….
I assume you are not searching for baseball conversation then, because if you were you would have searched elsewhere.
I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.
Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.
Hey Kasey
Glad you’re back posting on here. How’s the music scene treating you?
Look – there’s no doubt that a guy like Santana strengthens ANY team. It’s hard to swallow right now. If we revisit all this in a year, I’m hopeful that we see it was the right thing to do from the Yankee viewpoint.
I don’t think you can build a new Dynasty by reacting to what the Red Sox do.
There’s a couple of things you can do – you can use Yankee resources to build one of the top farm systems in MLB – using the draft and international free agents.
The Yankees have done a fantastic job retooling their system in a short time. We might be a year behind where the Sox are in terms of position players; and we’re way ahead as far as pitching prospects.
You can also retool/rebuild while contending.
Remember – what Dynasty means is the ability to contend more or less indefinitely, without having to spend a fortune on free agents, and without having to mortgage the future
2008 will be a transition year for the rotation and the pen. And if Tabata and/or Jackson continue their development, 2009 might mark a transition in the Yankee outfield.
It’s exciting stuff – whatever the outcome. It’s also a chance to root for an underdog, and root for our own kids. That’s pretty good stuff, too
Pete… can you block this guy somehow?
So…different topic: Anybody know where I can check out rough estimates of teams’ payrolls? I’m reading John Donovan’s article on the Royals (the Royals!) trying to get more competitive with their free agent signings. I saw the figure of ~57 million at the start of 2007, so I wanted to see how that compared to other teams.
A) I’m not ready to concede the 2008 season to anyone, not even the Red Sox.
B) You don’t make a deal to play keep-away. For the Yankees to get Santana, they were being asked to give up players that actually meant something to them. For whatever reason, the Red Sox are not in the same position. I will not jump on the “the Yankees were out-negotiated” bandwagon.
Rob
December 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.
If the elephant stepped ‘over’ the bunny, wouldn’t the bunny not be crushed?
Go to espn, mlb, and teams, there should be a tab for salaries.
The Twins aren’t demanding our two most valuable young players (Chamberlain and Cano). Can’t really ignore that. I share the opinion that our #3 slots above theirs but its not like they want our #1 versus Boston’s junk.
Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
GOTWINS,
So you say stupid Yankee fans and then you expect us to talk baseball with you?
nope, when i first got on this blog i tried talking baseball.
but after one or two posts, simple questions like what do you guys think will happen..
yankee fans started telling me to get outta here . this is a yankee post..
no, i dont want to talk baseball no more..
you fans dont know anything about baseball, neither does your management..
i bet if the yankees would spend $70-$80mil..
they would be the laughing stock of baseball.
if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..
i mean.. you guys have showed you dont win when you spend money.. and we showed we dont win when we dont spend money..
He was just with a trainer i think, i didn’t want to stick around too long cause I met him a couple weeks ago at PF Changs, so I dont want him to think im a stalker.
Well, Lefthanded Pitchers do not fair well in Boston as a rule throughout the ages because of the Green Monster, not unlike a RH pitcher has a bit of a disadvantage in Yankee Stadium. Santana is special though and of course he would continue to be dangerous in Yankee Stadium for or against the Yankees.
The most important part is how will Santana affect the bullpen or other team players with a chunk of salary tossed his way. I believe it would affect the Yankees less than Boston.
I still would prefer the Yankees to get Scott Kazmir over any other pitcher currently in the majors. He is special, younger and had great success against Boston.
“Crisp is horrible. “Replacement level†means that if they had someone better to play in center, Crisp would most certainly be riding the bench.”
By this logic any player is replacement level, because if you had someone better then the given player would be riding the bench. Cano is replacement level because if we had Utely Cano would be riding the bench.
As another poster wrote replacement level is the level of a player easily available to any team (AAA level).
Last season Crisp was 43 fielding runs and 10 batting runs about a replacement level center fielder. Thus most definately not replacement level. Not great batting, but greating fielding.
Clearly killschill, the Yankees don’t see themselves as having to “win now”.
If that was the case, they would have included Jackson and Horne in the deal and gotten it done.
They took a longer term view here.
Its why the Yankees can’t win. If they don’t do the deal, they are incompetent. If they do the deal, they are giving away the farm, spending too much money, etc.
Seems to me, they took the attitude was that if the deal makes sense for them they would do it. If not, they passed.
Not exactly the work of people thinking only about today.
Kasey, no question they start next year behind the Sox in a big way. But, what can you do?
Really, what’s the solution? Give them Kennedy, Jackson AND 150 million?
At some point, you can’t give up more just to keep him away from Boston.
I am a huge Santana fan but, I’m not faulting the Yankees for passing on this deal. I don’t give up Kennedy and Jackson.
Who knows, maybe being an underdog takes the pressure off the Yankees for a change. Not such a bad thing.
Blargh –
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com
raymagnetic,
torre could not have just “pulled the team off the field.” if he could have, he would have. it was discussed quite a bit after the game.
obviously, your reading comprehension level is low at best. at no point did i say the twins made the deal simply to spite hank. i said his announcement didn’t help things at all. care to argue otherwise?
cashman did what he could. at no point did i say otherwise. he made an offer and stood by it. that’s fine.
doesn’t change the fact that the reigning world series champs just got an awful lot better. are you missing that point, along with every other i’ve made?
i’m all set as far as discussions with you go, thanks. enjoy your idiocy.
I’m sure that Jeter is a fine, upstanding RESIDENT of Tampa.
GOTWINS – Oh, you thought you were talking baseball? Excuse me, all I heard coming from you was bulls*$t.
Oh please gotwins, we have a resident red sox fan on here, and he posts back and forth with people no one is rude to him. maybe people were rude to you, because you were rude to them. Ever think about that.?
kasey,
what “war” are we exactly in?
here we go again, basing what we do as a team on what the Red Sox do. there are 28 other teams in baseball, other than the Boston Red Sox, who affect us. if we’re “at war,” we’re at war with all of them.
here’s a question: if the Yankees were to enter a period that, which they might not be at this time, in which a step back was taken in regards to letting youth develop and not working to put that massive championship team out there, is that made harder for folks if the team that becomes the dominant team at that time is the Boston Red Sox?
“Now with Satana in their rotation, the Sox will definitely crush the Yanks like an elephant stepping over a bunny.”
Excuse me, sensei, but how does the elephant crush the bunny if he steps over him?
Hey! I was just wondering who are the other top prospects we have in the farm system including pitchers, infielders, and outfielders?
“wang will suddenly figure out how to pitch on turf and in october. ”
All of sudden Wang is the worst thing to ever happen just because he had a lousy postseason? Wang is SOLID
Wang has pitched 533 innings in his career, 68 of which happen to be on turf, the rays and the twins are both likely to move out of their domes in the next 3 years. As for the second part, im not even going to touch it. You just dont get it.
Why does it keep happening? Why do teams ask more from us than from any other team? Is there a rational explanation?
“if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..”
Ummm…actually you could spend that kind of money. Your tightwad owners just don’t want to put any of their riches back into the team. Get your facts straight.
and what is the deal with Tabata? I know he’s only 18, but is he mlb ready?
SJ – We can certainly hope that having the pressure off does make them a different team.
I’m not sure if the Red Sox aren’t giving up anything that hurts—if I recall correctly, they’re giving up yet another shortstop of the future, which means they go to war with Julio Lugo again. And by-and-large, their position players (especially Manny and Ortiz) are getting old just as well as the Yankees’ are.
I think the key difference is that the Red Sox rotation is in its prime right now, whereas the Yankee rotation is completely infused with youth. Sure, the Red Sox are a much better bet to win a World Series or two in the next two-to-three years, but the Yankees aren’t that far behind, anything can happen in the postseason, and I think the Yankees will have a much easier time reloading than the Red Sox do after all their position players age away.
It’s really easy to overstate the difference between the Red Sox and the Yankees, even if the Red Sox get Santana, but the two teams aren’t as far apart they might seem at first glance. Yes, the Red Sox are a better team on paper right now, but that’s not so meaningful. How many people thought the Red Sox would be as good as they were last year? How many people thought the Tigers would be as good as they were two years ago? The White Sox three years ago?
When it comes down to the season and actually playing the games, all bets are off.
Ultimately, I cannot imagine the Yankees including Hughes in any deal other than Santana, especially considering how reluctant the Yankee brass were with that option in the first place. I’ve read more than one report that said Yankee officials were questioning Hughes’ inclusion even when a deal seemed likely last night; if the Yankees are reluctant to part with Hughes to get Santana/block him from Boston, why would they be any more eager to part with Hughes to get Haren?
Even the reactionary theory doesn’t make any sense, since you might as well have sealed the deal with Santana in the first place; then a reaction would not have been necessary. I think Cashman drew a line in the cement, the Twins refused to cross it, and he decided to walk away. Good for him. I cannot see him making similar concessions to anyone else for anyone else who is currently on the trade block, Haren and Bedard included.
I have absolutely no idea why Minnesota would agree to the current trade offer for Santana, considering the joke of a package they’d receive from Boston. Coco Crisp? They’d be doing the Sox a FAVOR.
That bothers me far more than the concept of the Yankees not acquiring him.
“I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.”
Because Beckett doesn’t scare me. I watched the Yankees handle him several times this season. I also watched the rest of the Sox’s “amazing” starting pitching be generally mediocre in the playoffs…the Indians just turned out to be worse. Sabathia didn’t show up and Carmona folded under the pressure.
I think that one of Hughes or Joba will step up and pull a Justin Verlander over the course of this season. And, thus, I feel pretty good about going into a playoff series with Pettitte, the two of them, and Wang.
SJ44,
this “forward thinking” team has a lineup constructed to win today. the offense is built to win, the rotation is built to grow. so, by the time hughes, chamberlain and kennedy are ready to contribute, pettitte, jeter, rivera and posada will either be gone or too old to make large contributions.
nothing cashman could do, i agree. the red sox still win. and they win for the foreseeable future, as well.
Pete – I would say Lester is a little more than a prospect at this point, seeing that he won the clinching game of the world series.
If Coco Crisp is part of the deal as oppose to Ellsbury, then Bill Smith should be fired on the spot. Someone should tell him that this isn’t MLB 2008 the Show for PS3
jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Oh please gotwins, we have a resident red sox fan on here, and he posts back and forth with people no one is rude to him. maybe people were rude to you, because you were rude to them. Ever think about that.?
ya know what pumpkin
you could be right..
but since all yankee fans seem the same.. they seem angry and want to argue.
im guessing your not right..
GOTWINS just said it…We shouldn’t bother responding to his posts. Thanks for that clarification, buddy…Will do!
“i bet if the yankees would spend $70-$80mil..
they would be the laughing stock of baseball.
if the twins would spend $170-$180mil. we would be a dynasty..”
Woulda shoulda coulda GOTWINS! but it is hard to build a dynasty when there is so much more parity in baseball these days. The only team that has repeated as champions since 2000 are the Red Sox and even then it took them 4 years to win 2, there are no back to back teams since us. LOOK AROUND!
anyone see Pettitte’s remarks that he could pitch for another ten years?
I wouldn’t make that deal if I were the Yankees either and I think they will be fine with their young stud pitchers.
But this is like the Curt Schilling trade all over again.
The D’backs were asking for the stars and moon from the Yankees and then after they refused, the D’backs turn around and accept garbage from Boston.
I still wouldn’t be scared of Boston. The Yankees never had a problem beating Santana in the playoffs and Beckett still doesn’t scare me. Schilling is on his last legs and Dice-K is nothing more than a media creation (still waiting for the gyro ball).
BTW, great job Pete. As always.
SJ44
December 4th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Being a charter member of the “Get Santana†Fan Club and someone who knows a bit about the Yankees Farm System, I agree with Pete.
I don’t get fleeced by the Twins. If that means he goes to Boston, so be it.
Its tough enough to give up Hughes, which should have been the clincher in the deal.
However, when Smith continues to ask for more and more, at some point, you just have to pass.
Sweeney Murti on the FAN just reported the Yankees believe he is going to Boston.
_
The Yankees believe that Sweeney Murti is going to Boston? That’s hardly a major loss. Perhaps he can take Michael Kay and Suzyn Waldman with him. Talk a bout a great day in Yankeeland.
mitchell’s eleven,
i’m fine with a “rebuilding period,” except this isn’t that. this offense is built to win now. the rotation is not.
JBRO, it sounds like you already are one….:)
Can everyone please say aye aye to the following so GOTWINS will be happy (that’s how you deal with passive-aggressives, give them what they want)
-Liriano is better than Santana and could’ve won the Cy Young had he not got injured.
-Liriano is far better than Hughes.
-The Twins are a superior club because they field such great teams while spending a fraction of what the Yankees do.
chaz palminteri thinks yanks are crazy
“I’m a little confused as to why Yankee fans are so in love with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy and not frightened that the Sox can throw Beckett and Santana at them for the next 5 years.”
they’re not used to actually having young homegrown pitching…so they’re not comprehending that they’ll be lucky if one of the three has a good season:
cause one’s gonna get hurt, one’s gonna not be so good, and one might be good.
that’s the way it works.
meanwhile Santana hasn’t been on the DL since 2001.
Murphy, talk me off man, because I can’t see how the prospect of Santana in Boston is anything but devastating, especially because the Red Sox have to relinquish so little to do so.
I hope to God this is just an eleventh-hour bluff to get the Yankees to yield more. And the Twins turn around and demand more from the Red Sox as they close in on a deal—a demand that ultimately scuttles the deal.
Otherwise, I’m going to agonize about this trade for the next three months.
I can’t fathom why the Yankees wouldn’t include Horne or Betances in their offer and Alberto Gonzales, if necessary, to see whether the Twins would accept it.
I can understand rebuffing a demand for IPK and Hughes, but not Hughes and Horne.
he wants santana for hughes and kennedy
I say this is all a smokescreen for the Twins to say we really tried to trade Johan.
Assume the trade gets made. Do you really think that Johan signs with the Sox during the 72 hour window? Something tells me no.
Or, that at the last minute, the Twins ask for Buchholtz instead of Lester given the cancer scare (who wouldn’t). Sox refuse.
That way the Twins GM goes to the fans and says “we tried.” They keep him for later in the offseason or during the season, and see how things develop.
That’s why the offer is so high for serious clubs like the Yankees—perhaps since a deal could be done.
Given the response here on this blog, they are counting on Cash to act like some of us fanboys.
Thanks to heaven that Cash is in charge.
twins fans must be dying with this proposed trade
LGV,
“Why does it keep happening? Why do teams ask more from us than from any other team? Is there a rational explanation?”
Because not long ago we used to give up a lot more than anyone else in trades for bloated salary players we thought would take us to the promised land, there are still teams out there dumb enough to play chicken with Cashman on this issue.
Thanks
Hmm, this Cot’s Baseball Contracts site is handy…
Looks like the Royals are trying; 67 million for the 2007 opening day roster…will be interesting to see how far they would go up over the next couple of years
I completely agree, we can field a solid team.
If Santana goes to the Red Sox, I won’t pretend it isn’t a big deal because it undoubtedly will be bigtime for them and bad for the Yankees.
You heard it hear first: the Red Sox will acquire Santana, the Twins electing to take the Crisp/Lester package (and inferior package to boot) and will sign Santana to a 6 year, $120 million contract.
The Yankees will plan to move in to 2008 with Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Joba, and Phil in the rotation with Kennedy working long relief and spot starts as the season progresses. They will bolster their bullpen with Horne, Ron Mahay, Ross Ohlendorf, and the Viz. They will start marquez in the minors. Humberto Sanchez will set up for Rivera by July.
maddog is salivating over “proposed” trade
Sometimes when things sound too good to be true, they are. Unless the Twins are seeing something we’re not, maybe the idea that they’d trade their franchise player for the package that’s being thrown around is totally false and the product of bloggers and the rumor-mill. Can you really see this Twins brass holding a press conference to explain to their fans that they traded away arguably the best pitcher of his generation for …drumroll… Jon Lester and three other guys?? I just can’t see that happening.
No, I can’t say aye to that. Sorry =)
And I should care3 about what Chazz Palmeteri thinks because????
Chaz wanted us to raid Fort Knox and chase Alex after he opted out.
mike could care less…so we’ll be the underdog
That really put me at ease. Thanks!
Beckett had a 4.39 ERA in 26.2 IP against the Yankees last year. Hardly dominant.
mel December 4th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Can everyone please say aye aye to the following so GOTWINS will be happy (that’s how you deal with passive-aggressives, give them what they want)
-Liriano is better than Santana and could’ve won the Cy Young had he not got injured.
-Liriano is far better than Hughes.
-The Twins are a superior club because they field such great teams while spending a fraction of what the Yankees do.
ok, i did not word the 3rd one that way.. cuz i dont use the word superior and fraction..
and what about those posts is being rude to people?
im rude now because of how ive been treated..
but the 3 examples you gave.. have nothing to do with me being rude
I like Mike’s approach right about now. Better to be the underdog than reactionary.
The biggest mistake people make is projecting games before they are played.
We see that every year when the Yankees face a pitcher they will “destroy”. Often, that doesn’t happen.
The bottom line is, the Twins took the lesser offer. Absent giving away your farm system, I don’t know what Cash/Hank could have done to change the course of the deal.
Now, the pressure is on the Red Sox. Let them deal with the “World Series or Bust” stuff.
Their whining about payroll ends and now we have to hope the Yankees young arms take shape.
If they do, the Yankees will be just fine. Sure, the Red Sox are favorites but, the favorites don’t always win.
Its awfully tough to give up 4 A list players for Santana when the team you are competing with for him is giving up less. Much less.
Well played, old WFAN caller.
TwinsfaninNY,
You might as well bounce your self off this site. No one cares about your bottom feeding Twins right now.
Just remember this: the Yankees will ALWAYS be better than the Twins…ALWAYS.
TwinsfaninNY
December 4th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
1. Santana does not have “awful ERA†at Fenway. that’s based on two starts six years ago…before he became the pitcher he now is. cheez.
2. Boston is upping their offer of Lester, Crisp, Lowrie (the blue chip in this deal) and Masterson. probably another one of their top prospects. (and that group, cause of Lowrie and Masterson, beats the Yankees best offer)
3. I’d be highly surprised if Crisp stays in MN…probably being packaged with Nathan….
_
Somehow, I don’t think you know a “blue chip” from a “cow chip”.
the defenition of replacement player, as when it refers to a baseball indicator, it does not mean that if the yankees get Utley, Cano is a replacement player…..
“What Is Replacement Level?
Baseball is a zero sum game. One team always wins at the expense of another. It is not possible for one team to win without another losing. In order to win, a team must be able to produce more runs (or prevent runs from scoring) than the opposition. It’s success in producing wins is directly tied to its ability to produce more runs than its opponent. Any competitive advantage a team has must, in some way, translate to better on-field performance to be valuable.
A commodity which is easily available to all teams at no or low cost confers no competitive advantage, and therefore is of minimal value. Thus, baseball value comes from scarcity.
The talent distribution in baseball can be summed up as follows: there are very few “superstar” level players, a somewhat larger number of “average” producers, and a practically unlimited number of “scrubs”. This is usually represented as the tail end of a bell curve or normal distribution, with the vast majority of the overall population already weeded out through other factors prior to reaching professional ball.
Average players have value. Measures that use average production as a reference point, such as TPR, incorrectly estimate the contribution of average players by failing to recognize the value of average playing time.
Replacement level is a less concrete mathematical concept, but it is an important economic one. In particular, it more correctly values durability and playing time versus rates of production. ”
source: http://www.stathead.com/bbeng/woolner/vorpdescnew.htm
it looks like these twin fans are as stupid and cheap as their ownership. but they don’t seem elated by this “proposed”trade, maybe theyre getting hip. hanging out in here and all…
is this a done deal sj44?? I haven’t heard anything
I’ve been following the Yankess for the past 27 years.
If this was 1987 – the Yankees would have given up the farm for Santana i.e. Hughes, IPK, Horne & Jackson without even thinking twice about it.
For the first time I can remember, in all those years, the Yankees are building a foundation that will bring us a far superior team that will grow together instead of a bunch of free agents that are thrown together.
2008 will be the first of many great seasons to come.
SJ44, can you persuade me that the Yankees should not include Horne and Alberto Gonzales along with Hughes in an offer for Santana?
I can’t understand why the Yankees would allow a potential deal to founder over Alan Horne.
Can you enlighten me?
SJ44,
You’re talking like something has been agreed to by the Twins and Red Sox.
Is this the case?
how the hell does FAN break this story at 1:30?
The Yankees play Boston head-to-head very well. The Yankees have to beat the other teams they play and I think the are constructed to do so. I don’t hand the division over just yet.
It’s really amazing—I don’t know if it’s different people posting or what, but first it was keep the kids, the kids are great, the kids will win, these are the best prospects ever, etc., etc. Now that it looks like the Yankees will be keeping the kids, it’s the end of the world. The Yankees will never win.
And no one know exactly what the Yankees will look like in 4 years, or the Red Sox for that matter. Manny and Ortiz will also be aging (unless they have portraits in the attic at Fenway), as well as everyone else there. The Yankees won’t be aging in a vacuum. And if I’m to believe the people here who post with respect to the Yankees farm system, not only is it not exactly barren, but it seems to be times to ripen about when they’re going to be needed. Plus, oh my, they will be drafting new talent in the meantime.
Baseball is fluid; life is fluid. And ya gotta play the games.
I can’t wait to see the Twins press conference introducing Coco Crisp and Jon Lester.
Good luck trying to fill that new stadium.
And Bill Smith better enjoy his only year as a baseball GM. This trade will be a career killer for him.
Az getting Haren for Connor Jackson.
LouG
December 4th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Hey, we are relaxed.
The worst that could happen is that we break up the holy trinity.
KEEP THE KIDS.
LOL… Is it too early to start referring to Joba as the father, Hughes as the son, and Kennedy as the ghost???
haren to dbacks?
Go Twins – Payroll should not be an excuse. I am not arguing your point about “the Yankees should win because they spend so much”, but instead the point that the Twins don’t win the World Series because of their payroll.
20006 – St Louis Cardinals – $88,891,371
2005 – Chicago White Sox – $75,178,000
2003 – Florida Marlins – $45,050,000
2002 – Anaheim Angels – $ 61,721,667
GOTWINS:
Are you done yet, “Pumpkin?”
“Now, the pressure is on the Red Sox. Let them deal with the “World Series or Bust†stuff.”
For some reason, i feel like the yankees will stop dealing the World Series or Bust stuff, and if the red soxs start dealing like that, lord. We are going to have a ton of unhappy fans one way or another and then people label players like Wang and Arod chockers because of a bad game in the playoffs.
i hope we dont do something dumb just to prevent a the twins from making a bad trade
SJ44,
“Their whining about payroll ends and now we have to hope the Yankees young arms take shape.”
If we have to give up Johan to get them to stop using that payroll disparity BS they always use, then so be it, its worth it because even after Matsuzaka they still try to make people think they are simply unable spend like The Evil Empire.
if indeed santana does go to sox, that makes them a heavy favorite, but so what? we’ve been the favorites for the past decade. their pitching would be better than ours, but our offense would be better than theirs. (remember we won the season series against them last year & consider the terrible pitching we had in the first couple months)
but no one on their staff should scare us other than santana (if they do get him). beckett had a great year, but let’s see him do it again for a full year.
all is not lost. we are the yankees. i told people last year the same thing when we were 8 under, 14.5 back. relax. teams still fear us and for good reason.
“The added benefit. We no longer have to hear Theo and Lucchino whine about money and how they can’t be a “Uber team, like the Yankeesâ€, everytime a deal takes place.
The Red Sox whining is all over after this deal.”
Thanks SJ, exactly my thinking. I’m looking forward to Sox shelling out the massive contract for Santana. I’m so tired of the whining. The Sox fans can look in the mirror and see that they have become what they claimed they most despised.
Kennedy will be in the rotation next year. He threw 165 innings last year.
Joba only threw about 112 innings.
Kennedy is further developed and has the experience in college to help him along. He can throw 180 innings or more next year easily.
Hughes on the other hand, threw 110 including the injury. He did, however, throw ~145 in 2006 and he should be able to throw at least 160-180 if he does an adequate amount of working out in the offseason.
Joba is the least likely to be the mainstay in the rotation just because he is the most limited by innings. You have to set up some sort of 6 man rotation that alternates out each turn. It can easily be worked out where the normal starters (Moose, Pettitte, Wang) all get 5 days rest but the kids still get their work in.
Having three great young pitchers and trying to get them all work is a great problem to have.
I think Haren was just Russo hearing a rumor and reporting it as done.
How is Lowrie the “Blue Chip prospect” in this deal?
A middle infielder with doubles power, who just hit .167 in the Arizona Fall League.
Bill Smith got caught with his pants down.
why do clubs demand a premium when dealing with the Yankees?
(Lester & Coco) vs (Hughes & Melky) – that’s not even close contest.
I would understand demanding more from a division rival, but that’s not the case.
And to spite the dreaded evil empire, the Twins shoot themselves in the foot, by accepting the weaker offer.
marc/jennifer:
Link?
This is such garbage. Did Wang forget how to pitch in October in 2006? How about 2005? Does he forget how to pitch in Minnesota’s dome? How about Tampa’s? The Dome which really skews his numbers is in Toronto.
But I wouldn’t expect you to know this.
per wfan.
jennifer, your second trade that your break. good for you
A middle infielder with doubles power, who just hit .16