Santana may be fading away for Yankees
-
- December
- 4
The Johan Santana trade seems colder than hotter at this point. The Twins have acknowledged they’re not getting Ian Kennedy. But they’re holding out for better than what the Yankees are offering for the third player.
Why the Yankees need to have an answer on this now is a mystery. But if Hank Steinbrenner sticks to his deadline, it looks like it’s not getting done.
Brian Cashman said during our interview with him that a lot of trades are being discussed by the general managers, many that would come as a surprise. Pitching is the focus of most teams, particularly the Yankees.
It’s doubtful Baltimore would trade Erik Bedard within the division. But Danny Haren would come cheaper than Santana, presumably.
This entry was posted
on Tuesday, December 4th, 2007 at 2:18 am by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Peter Abraham
So Santana was just a mirage, huh? Maybe it’ll happen next winter.
awesome im going to bed now
we need Santana for any price!
aa mel you beat me
Pete G.,
We’ll call it a 4-way tie.
Hey Pete when do you think, man maybe nothing is happening tonight i should get to bed, but then the minute your head hits the pillow, something happens out of no where and you missed the story of the week, maybe month, aybe year, is that your worst nightmare as a beat writer, do you only sleep when brian cashman goes back to his room
Santana for Igawa, straight up ! ( am I dreaming ?…ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ )
Pete,
Is Hank sticking to his deadline adamantly or is giving some leeway on it?
Pete, there are conflicting reports about the dealine being Monday or Tuesday evening, can you clarify that?
This Santana fiasco reminds me of the US/Russia Summit Meetings of the 60’s. Lots of hot air but no big balloon ride.
It’s laughable that people hear actually believe Hank and this front office.
After witnessing the turnaround with the all A-Rod circus, anything is possible.
The Santana Chronicles are hardly over.
Save Phil Hughes!
Haren is cheaper in cash, but not in prospects…I don’t get the talk about Haren at all. Unless they want Marquez, A-Gonzalez, White, DeSalvo and their such ilk along with a Melky Cabrera or something. If we barely wanted to give up Hughes for Santana, anyone on board for Haren in that? No way! IPK for Haren is the new Hughes for Santana, I guess…
Please stay in Minny!!!!!!!!!
Keep Hughes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is a question for Yankee fans…
Lets pretend that the BoSox offer Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie together tomorrow…
What is your counter offer?…Is there evn a counter offer, or do you just let him go to Boston?….
At minimum it’d cost Hughes/Melky/Horne and Jackson…That is minimum for sure, but it might even cost more like Hughes/Melky/Kennedy or Cano/Kennedy…
If that happens it is gonna be tough for the Yanks to keep Santana, honestly, that is a tough package to beat…
Thoughts?
Pete…just so that you know…YOU ROCK !…Thanks for the blog AND all of your hard work…When the Yankees win the WS in 2008, you deserve a ring ! Have a great night, Mr. Insomniac !
I would give Hughes/Melky/Horne,
OR Hughes/Horne/Jackson (pulling Melky)
OR Kennedy/Melky/Horne/Jackson (switching IPK for PH).
But I would not go Hughes/Melky/Horne/Jackson.
Sox gave the twins Lester’s medical records to review.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/12/talks_turn_seri.html
No way dude Haren will cost more than santana. Oakland has no urgency to trade him and he is signed under a great contract for the next 3 years. Yankees should pass. Stick with santana, or go with what you got. pettitte’s return allows the yankees to stay passive here if the santana trade is a wash
as long as santana doesn’t wind up in boston, fine.
CB – respond to your post from the previous thread, if i’m the mariners, i wouldn’t deal hernandez, but they’re a different ballclub than the yankees. hernandez and ichiro are the only players putting butts in seats at safeco. santana puts the yankees over the top. in seattle, santana just makes the mariners good enough to MAYBE win the west.
but, if we’re talking in terms of pure value, i’d have done something like hernandez/clement/another prospect for santana if i was bavasi. clement isn’t going to pan out anyway, so might as well sell high.
If the Twins give Santana away for a package centered around Jon Lester, then the Yanks have nothing to do but to just build up the farm system and look to compete five years from now.
The Twins will take a package of Lester or Ellsbury plus some random dudes but not Melky + Hughes + one more random dude? They gotta be nuts if they do it.
Santana’s not going to Boston with what they have to offer. Twins just trying to drive up the price for us.
IF the Sox win the bid, what’s the final negotiated salary? I think that Johan knows that the Yankees would pay $3-5M more PER year.
the only way this development is significant is if the red sox decided to include lester along with ellsbury. if so, that is a very good offer, and the yankees should just walk away. it would take too much to beat that.
at this point, i don’t care. the twins want to pass on phil hughes, then let them.
looks like he’s heading to Boston, hey there was absolutely nothing the Yankees could have done about this, if it happens, it happens.
These counter offers we’re horrendous, they wanted the kitchen sink from us and instead asked Boston for a cup of water. Hey we move on….
It doesn’t make sense either. Boston’s the one that already has an ace. New York has no one (even though Wang is an excellent #2). They would only doom themselves and the rest of the AL for the next 5 seasons.
Hank told one of the NY papers that they would wait at least until tomorrow(or later today actually).
I say drop out of negotiations regardless. For the price the Twins are asking, it’s just not worth it. Best scenario for the Yanks is he stays with the Twins through next season and they pick him up as a FA. Then the big 3 develop another year – and you get the services of Santana. If he goes somewhere else in the meantime, so be it.
I agree with Hank, why get pushed into a bidding war with the BoSux? Focus on fielding the best team you can and let the chips fall where they may. Certainly don’t potentially mortgage your future because Boston may or may not make a move. If we were talking lesser talent then Hughes…then maybe you can play around with Boston and/or other suitors.
This is getting ridiculous. Why does every team think it’s ok for them to ask Yanks more than what they ask of other teams?
We offer Hughes + Melky: they don’t like it.
Sox offer Lester or Ellsbury: They’re all over the deal.
They seem to think that the yanks can somehow be swindled into offering more than any other team. Either that or they just somehow expect us to obligatory give up more for whatever reasons.
If they take Lester + Ellsbury over Hughes + Melky, ok, so be it. If they take either one of them, not both, then I say Twins are just in for it to rip us off.
We’ll keep the big 3 thank you very much.
Beckett was only 23 when he won the world series with the Marlins. Hughes, Joba, Kennedy are just a year or two from turning 23 – we got our own in house solutions for pitching.
Rotoworld
I’m guessing Nathan is going to Boston too
KAZMIR
Brandon,
There is no way that the Twins give them Nathan AS WELL as Santana for a package comparable to ours, which they wouldn’t even accept for Santana ALONE.
It wouldn’t cost Johan and Nathan to get them to do Lester and Ellsbury…It’d be substantially less than that…Maybe Juan Rincon (bill smith said he is healthy btw) or Glen Perkins…just guessing…
This has me very excited btw!…I would offer a sweetener as much as Nick Blackburn for a package of Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie
So Ellsbury and Lester = Hughes/Kennedy/Melky or Hughes/Melky/Jackson/Horne…did I miss something??!!
Why the heck are the Twins making it easier for a team that has already won two World Series in this young milenium? HELLO! I’m hoping this is just a ploy by the BoSox and Twins to job over the Yankees.
!?!?!?!?
Ellsbury + Lester = Santana + More (”Sweetener”)
Melky + Hughes + Kennedy/Ajax = Santana only
!?!?!?!?
Looks like Twins failed Math 101
I agree Mr.GoodKat it’s just ridiculous but if this happens I vote we run the score up on the Twins everytime we see them
Matt,
Another thing – I asked this before – who was the last player to ranked by baseball america as the top pitching prospect to be traded in any sort of deal before he completed his first year in the majors?
In 2006 DiceK was BA’s top prospect. I don’t count him because of his age/ experience. Phil was the top pitcher.
Try to find out when the last time that kind of prospect was traded and then think about the yankees offer.
I hope this is over. Our offer is solid. If they don’t want it fine. We should have never offered Hughes in the first place. We should have offered Kennedy, Melky and two others and thats it. I’d rather take our chances that Santana becomes a FA and its just a bidding war instead of us losing talent.
I’m probably insane or just seriously sleep deprived, but I don’t care if Boston gets Santana. I want to keep Hughes, end of story.
Why is everyone surprised that the twins prefer Boston’s package?
The Twins think Ellsbury will be better than Melky. That’s reasonable.
Lester is comparable to Kennedy.
Lowrie fills a glaring hole at SS, and he is much better than Gonzalez.
And the last guy is Masterson, who is a nice pitching prospect.
Hughes is the best player of all, but the twins fill a lot more needs with Boston’s package. The twins are losing 3 starting pitchers this offseason – Santana, Garza, Silva. They need more than just one pitcher back in a trade for Santana. Boston gived them 2 pitchers, a SS, and a CF. That’s better than Hughes/Melky/Gonzalez
Twins’ GM obviously hates the Yankees.
In a dream world, I’d love to go after Kazmir. He pitches in the AL East, and even though he had a 13-9 record, he had 239 Strikeouts and an ERA of 3.48. And he’s 23. With the Yankees offense, he could have easily gotten 17 or so.
I think this is more posturing. These are just more rumors being leaked to get the yankees to yet again panic.
The front office has thought very hard about how far they’re willing to go with this. Hughes was difficult enough.
Boston didn’t seem that eager today to swoop in and collect Santana.
We’ll see. But today it looked more like they are playing things out to 1) drive up the price for the yankees or 2) see if they can get a cheap deal from the twins.
Twins don’t seem like they’re in the settling mood. Its too early in the off season for them to need to yet.
Looks like the Sox might get him for absolute crap.
Maybe the Yankees take a chance with Freddy Garcia?
CB-
I don’t have any intentions to insult Phil Hughes…From what I have heard about him in article he sounds great…I just really want Ellsbury…Ellsbury to me is substantially better than Melky…He fits the Twins situation to a “T”…Delmon was offense, now we need defense…I really can not speak for the Twins in this situation…Their scouting is ridiculous and if they want Lester, then so do I…No one is saying Lester>Hughes, let’s not forget that…
Oh and BTW, I don’t have inside info about the Red Sox offering Ells and Lester together, that was just crazy timing…
LOL if twins want more prospects to fill holes we’ll give them extra parts. Two of the big three + Melky? Ajax? Go away.
Ellsbury/ Lester/Lowrie is not crap.
That is a solid offer.
Then it gets down to how much the twins want to very good prospects vs. one great prospect and a good young centerfielder with a solid future but limited upside.
I don’t see the sox doing this yet.
Christ, we better not trade for Haren, particularly if the Sox actually get Santana. The A’s will drain us of prospects for a completely inferior pitcher than Santana, or the combined WARP of the players we would trade, all because his contract is cheaper than Santana’s will be for the years that Haren cannot apply for free agency. Bedard would be an excellent stopgap trade before next year’s free agency bonanza, but the Orioles would only trade him to a divisional rival for a boatload of prospects. Either Santana or no trade (particularly the latter).
Another thing to consider is the Twins will be taking a chance with Lester’s medical history. But they must like Ellsbury that much to take the chance.
Matt,
While true, in that the Twin’s scouting department is excellent, one must admit that the still lost their head scout and savant GM.
I completely agree with Eirias.
By the way is it me or is this the same thing that happened with the Gagne trade last year? Why is it that the Red Sox never have to pay as big of a price as we do for the same talent? I dont get it. I mean, I’m sure the Yanks are hated and maybe thats it but just because they havent won as many championships doesnt mean that the Sox havent been there towards the top every year. It seems like the Yanks and Sox are always the two top AL teams. They definately are the top AL East teams every year. My point is yeah they only started winning recently but its not like the Sox have been in cellar this whole time. They shouldnt get a discount. Especially when they’ve won twice in the last 4 years. I just dont get it.
I don’t think the Read Sox is really interested in Santana. It’s all their deception hanging around the trade to make sure hurting the yankees’ future. Please just keep Hughes and Kennedy!! We’ve got so many young talents. Do you guys remember the 2005 WSC White Sox? Do they have a ture ace? Mark Buehrle? I don’t think so, but they still win the ring!
The big 3 is just ready to sparkling. Just keep all of them!We will have chances to watch four 15-win pitchers on the roster next season!
I’m really not so sure that Haren is even possible right now. Oakland asked for Maybin AND Miller! I’d bet they’ll ask us for at least Chamberlain and one other great player – maybe Cano or Hughes? Call me crazy, but I don’t understand why Hank doesn’t tell MN that we’ll give them Hughes and Kennedy, take Melky out of the deal, and see if we can’t make something out of a bad situation. Losing Santana to Boston when our offer is in the ballpark seems like a tough pill to swallow.
I think the reporters of Boston are either creating trades of their own or Redsox & twins together are spreading rumors. In essence they are just testing Hank’s patience. As every baseball manager in the world knows how Stein’s react to such rumors especially if it is related to redsox. Also why would team like twins settle for a package that is less worth than what they are expecting from Yanks? or is there general consensus in the baseball world that no matter what Yankees should not win any sweepstakes.
This is my take on this one, its just twins are trying to posture and see if Yankees budge. If yankees walk out twins have no leverage /chance to get best deal from redsox or do you think theo is stupid enough to trade 3 A level players/prospects and give Santana 100+ and just tilt the balance little bit more in their favour as compared to today. Well these are my views/opinions as rational person
And not to be picky, but Terry Ryan is still with the Twins. He’s just an advisor to Smith now. I doubt any deal would go through without Ryan weighing in on it.
Matt,
Ellsbury is much better than melky.
I would not trade Santana myself without getting back the absolute best pitcher I could.
The twins scouting is very, very good.
But I still don’t think boston is giving you both guys after you’ve been asking and asking and they’ve said no for days.
Also – I couldn’t really find any recent instances when the top BA pitching prospect has been traded before he came up for a year..
That goes back to 1990.
Think about how rare this opportunity is for your club as well.
IMO if you pass up a chance to get phil hughes you will regret this for 15 years.
Tell me who the last light hitting, very fast centerfielder who dominated games was?
Terry Ryan is still a part of the Organization…
Oh and also, it has been a long long long long time since the Twins had all the positions filled adequately…It would be nice to see them all filled…and if Lowrie comes through, the Boston deal does that for us…I honestly think the Twins are trying to get the Yankees to include Cano, it he is included I seriously would consider letting the Yanks keep their three pitchers…Melky and Cano, to me that’s right on spot with what the BoSox are offering in Ells and Lester…
“Why is everyone surprised that the twins prefer Boston’s package?
The Twins think Ellsbury will be better than Melky. That’s reasonable.
Lester is comparable to Kennedy.
Lowrie fills a glaring hole at SS, and he is much better than Gonzalez.
And the last guy is Masterson, who is a nice pitching prospect.
Hughes is the best player of all, but the twins fill a lot more needs with Boston’s package. The twins are losing 3 starting pitchers this offseason – Santana, Garza, Silva. They need more than just one pitcher back in a trade for Santana. Boston gived them 2 pitchers, a SS, and a CF. That’s better than Hughes/Melky/Gonzalez”
Because when you are trading someone of Santana’s ability you need to do more than just fill holes. You need to get back a gem, a potential ace, and Hughes is the only guy in that package that fits that criteria.
I would not trade Cameron Maybin one on one for Dan Haren.
Miller may have the best young left arm in the majors. And the tigers paid him an insane signing bonus (6.6 million?) only a year before.
Billy Beane is seriously crazy.
I hope the tigers make that trade!
Yahoo is saying that the deal is Lester, Crisp, Masterson and Lowrie. But I don’t believe that it is probably the 3 plus Ellsbury
Let’s get Kazmir because he can beat Bosox.
From what I’ve heard about Lester, he throws absolute fire, but he just has control problems…To me that seems like a fixable problem, especially for the Twins who have a weird/awesome knack with pitchers…maybe Lester could be a very good pitcher…
CB-
you post some great stuff…Diminant pitcher > Outfielder …But the twins for some reason make their own rules…
Oh and about Boston…Obviously I am gonna say something like this, but…maybe the Sox see how steadfast the Twins are in their negotiations and so they just have put their best foot forward and offered the deal…That or the Twins could easily have offered a sweetener…
Time for Yanks to move on from the silly game the Twinkies are playing.
Captain-
Gosh I hope that’s not true…I don’t want COCO the circus monkey…I’m going to bed, I’ll prolly hit ya’ll up tomorrow sometime
Coco Crisp, Lester, and Lowrie over the Yankees offer? Are they f’ing serious? Whatever, goodnight.
oooooooooooh when the Twins play us this coming season it’s going to be Bill Bellichick type final scores….
Control problems are not usually fixable.
The Yankees are discussing internaly on Hughes.Cabrera, Horne and Gonzalez. The Twins came off their demands for Horne and Jackson. This package will get it done and poses no real thread to any youth the Yanks might need to plug in in 2008. The Yanks are seriously considering this package, as Boston is now back in the picture. Take this at your own leaisure, i could be 100 feet away from all the happenings or i could be staying right down the street with the rest of the media
I call BS and I still say NO to this
“From what I’ve heard about Lester, he throws absolute fire, but he just has control problems…To me that seems like a fixable problem, especially for the Twins who have a weird/awesome knack with pitchers…maybe Lester could be a very good pitcher…”
Lester throws about 90-92. That’s far from absolute fire.
Matt,
You’ve heard wrong about Lester. He doesn’t throw fire. He has a solid low 90’s fastball.
His career WHIP in the minors is 1.3. He’s averaged almost 4 BB/9 innings.
Not so good. This is his major problem – his command is not so good.
You better hope Ellsbury is the second coming of Ichiro. Oh sorry, ellsbury has no throwig arm…
the offer is lester/crisp/lowrie/masterson according to olney, so cut the ellsbury talk.
if boston gets santana for that package, good for them, i guess. maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.
someone want to tell me why Randy Levine is here? Isn’t he the contract man
a package of lester/ crisp/lowerie/ masterson is absolutely awful.
This is bogus. There is no way the twins are that dumb.
This is not going to happen. This is more rumors to try to get the yanees to throw horne into the deal.
I cant believe that there is universal consesus that ellsbury is streets ahead of melky.
- Ellsbury did great in just over 100abs and in the PS but he did also have a 740 OPS in over 200abs in AAA.
- Ellsbury is also a year older than Melky.
- Ellsbury has better range but Melky has the arm.
Yes, he has great speed but melky is being underrated. It isnt a stretch to see melky post 800 OPS next year, whilst its its also hard to believe ellsbury will post the 900 OPS he did in 100abs.
I know this has been done to death but melky is closer to ellsbury, in my opinion than lester is to hughes.
“maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.”
Hank said that they would still talk about it today. So if the Twins make a trade with Boston, I doubt it would have anything to do with Hank’s mouth.
@kasey “if boston gets santana for that package, good for them, i guess. maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.”
I am sure Hank speaking cost us Santana. It had nothing to do with the prospects and the Twins being insane. You’re an idiot.
Eric,
Whether you can believe it or not yes there is near universal consensus in baseball that ellsbury is much better than melky.
It may be hype but that’s what people think.
In fact ellsbury posted a 740 OPS in 363 AAA abs. Shouldnt this hold some credence?
Johan Santana for Jon Lester, who has the stuff but hasn’t displayed the command to be an elite pitcher, a shortstop with a solid bat but and promising patience, but very limited fielding ability [Lowrie], and a one dimensional sinker ball specialist with a very shallow ceiling due to lack of secondary pitches [Masterson]
Wow.
Ellsbury is excellent. He has a swing tailored toward finding holes in the defense, similar to Jeter in that regard. That’s just a fantastic, natural ability. He’ll always have a high BABIP. But he too, has a limit to his value, because he’ll probably never hit for much power.
So, well done, Bill Smith. If you can take the package that doesn’t include Ellsbury, you have just made one of the worst trades in Baseball history. There’s really nothing the Yankees can do about this. If the Twins truly believe the Red Sox’s inclusion of Lester equals Kennedy [who has way better control and command than Lester] AND Jackson [who could be the Yankees’ CF by 2009] than he is simply being unreasonable, and hurting his franchise severely. Scarring it in fact. My God… if the Twins don’t get Ellsbury, this is positively nightmarish, a preposterously disastrous trade. So atrocious, it’s almost mind bending. I hate to be a jerk, but if this happens, I hope the Yankees run it up on the Twins when they play next season. When Lester is out of the game in the fourth inning after allowing three hits and four walks, and Masterson, the mop-up man, emerges from the bullpen, well, it’s going to be on… it’s going to be on… every time, cause we don’t play…
I can confirm that the Sox have not offered Lester and Ellsbury. I can also confirm that Jacoby Ellsbury created the big bang, when he laid the first fart in known time/space history
pre pete’s blog post earlier in the day:
“the twins are peeved at hank’s ultimatum…”
if you think there’s not an element of “F that loudmouth” involved in this twins/red sox stuff, you’re out of your mind.
hank making the deadline public weakened the yankees position in the negotiations. anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.
anyone who thinks boston isn’t serious about santana is foolish. theo and co. like winning and, with santana and beckett, then can keep doing it for a while.
lester’s a major-league-ready lefty. crisp fills a void in center. lowrie fills a void at short. masterson is a decent pitching prospect. the possibility exists that the twins actually prefer that offer to anything the yankees have laid out so far.
Also I bet Twins fans are gonna be PISSED if they get only Lester, Crisp, etc.
Understood CB, but it puzzles me that melky is considered such a ‘throw in’ whilst ellsbury is a centerpiece.
I cant argue that ellsbury is melky but the disparity isnt so great as its being made out.
i love this “run it up on the twins” stuff. this offense showed last year it’s feast or famine. if it’s a good day, they’ll put 12 runs on the board on anyone. if it’s a bad day, lester’s going to shut them down and embarrass them doing so.
that’s what happens when you rely on your offense. if they run into a slump, it doesn’t matter who’s out there.
kasey,
I doubt the Twins would accept a lesser offer(lester,crisp,etc) just because of Hank’s mouth. and what he said wasnt THAT bad in the first place.
The twins being “peeved” at hank steinbrenner has little to do with them deciding to take a boston package if they do.
That’s really not how multimillion dollar businesses are run.
Much of the twins near term future depends on the outcome of this trade.
They are moving into a publicaly funded stadium in 2010. Their owner is the 114th richest man in the U.S.
They cannot just blow this trade because of hank’s temper.
They wouldn’t spite themselves like that. Too much is at stake for them.
They are going back to boston to do what they’ve been doing the past few days – induce panic in the yankees so they do something stupid.
That’s why the twins are “peeved” – the yankees won’t give them what they want.
They should not include horne in the package.
Can we go to sleep or are these boston fools still talking ?
what hank said was 1) tampering 2) petulant. “everyone picks on the yankees and we’re tired of it! poor us! our offer is the best and if minnesota doesn’t take it tomorrow, we’re taking our ball and going home!” you say that stuff in private, maybe it helps. you say it in public, try to make the twins look bad, and it weakens your position. period.
throughout all of this, what did boston say? not a word. they just kept presenting the twins with packages, while still working on other offers. imagine that. if they did give the twins a deadline, no one knows of it but the red sox and twins, so there’s not egg on anyone’s face when the deadline isn’t met or the ultimatum turns out not to be so steadfast.
and, again, ellsbury’s not in the package. i don’t know why we’re debating his merits. he’s staying put, by all accounts.
Eric,
I can’t even tell you how much ink yankee fans have spent puzzling over the perceived value of Jacoby Ellsbury.
I’m not joking – its absurd. And everyone raises the same issues you have.
The scouts who actually see him however think very highly of him.
I personally think very highly of him. He serves a useful role. He’s got unique speed.
Supposedly in high school he ran a 4.27 40 yard dash.
If true that’s quite impressive. That was the time Deion Sanders ran at the NFL combines.
like it or not, hank’s mouth had a hand in these negotiations. if you think the twins front office enjoyed being upstaged and publicly bullied, i’m sorry. you’re incorrect.
was it the driving factor in the talks disintegrating? of course not. the twins want more than the yankees are willing to give.
but if you think hank’s big mouth made things any EASIER, you’re out of your mind.
CB
Are you talking about the Kazmir for Zambrano trade or the Pavano and Armas for Pedro trade?
You could draw 2 very conclusions from those examples.
“what hank said was 1) tampering 2) petulant. ”
True on both counts. But that’s still not going to make the twins make a decision that could cost them tens of millions of dollars.
That Olney update also only said what the Sox/Twins had discussed over the weekend – Lester/ Coco/ Lowrie/ Masterson.
Olney didn’t give an update of the package. Maybe Ellsbury is in?
Anyway, this is probably yet more rumors to make the yankees panic.
Hank doesn’t seem to be doing that. As long as he doesn’t I’m ok with what he’s done so far.
i hope all of you take great delight in the yankees “running it up” on the twins. (because, y’know, they can just flip the switch and do that, as we’ve seen. ask kenny rogers. and fausto carmona. or any of the indians, really.)
if boston lands santana, watching the offense “run it up” on teams during the regular season is going to be the highlight of the yankees season. 950 runs, another one-and-done october. if they make it that far.
hughes, kennedy and horne better be DAMN good.
bkight,
i don’t know what you’re referring to? which of my posts are you asking about?
and by the way, i’m not saying the yankees should have changed their offer. hughes/cabrera/b-level guy is fine. if that’s what they’re comfortable with, then make it your final offer, or tweak it one way or another in a way that you’re comfortable with.
but there was no need for the public announcement of a deadline.
i really hope hughes pans out. ditto kennedy and horne. there could be a day in the not-so-distant future when we’re looking back on these discussions with “sheffield-over-guerrero” type of regret.
Thats cool CB, and i can understand the attraction of his unique speed. I remember seeing pettitte pick him off in september yet ellsbury still made it to 2nd… (admittedly Giambi was at 1st)
But part of me thinks that ellsbury worshippers are the same people who claimed that Tony Womack “makes things happen” and that using logic if Pedroia hits .320 with his swing, ellsbury will be a career .370 hitter.
Anyhow, heres one guy who hopes this Johan thing falls over and the trinity stays in pinstripes until 27 and beyond.
I haven’t see anything that suggests anything has changed.
The twins have asked for medical records on Lester?
Not really a big deal. And quite honestly – I shocked they haven’t asked before.
Lester will have hundreds and hundreds of pages of medical reports that will be very complex and time consuming to go through.
The twins would need to do a battery of tests to clear him medically before accepting him in a trade. It could be a lengthy process.
The twins are jerking around again.
CB
you were asking about the last time a top pitching prospect was traded before his 1sr year in the bigs.
I think we all should send a note to Hank and say how we fans are so against stupid trades and would not make to the stadium or take Yes cable if they do any stupid trade? Just threat!!!!I know I am sounding emotional foolish but heck why not try something likes this and put some sense in owner of the sports franchise that we all love!!!!!Just few emotional thoughts
Quote from Kasey:
like it or not, hank’s mouth had a hand in these negotiations. if you think the twins front office enjoyed being upstaged and publicly bullied, i’m sorry. you’re incorrect.
So, the Twins are going to take a lesser package of players for Santana to punish Hank, and show them they shouldn’t be upstaged or publicly bullied? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Kinda cutting your nose off to spite your face.
bkight,
kazmir was an outstanding pitching prospect. But he was never the #1 prospect on BA’s list. He was behind Felix Hernandez (not that the mets are any less stupid for doing that). Same for pavano. Topped by Kerry Woods. Pavano was never the top pitching prospect according to BA.
If fill gets traded as far as I can tell this would be the first time its happenned in recent memory. Though I might be wrong about that. Just my eyeballing the lists:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html
Hey Pete — has Cashman gone to bed yet?
Those reports will to an oncologist and take a week to two weeks to go through. I can tell you right now, not many insurance companies would touch Lester for another year, and with good reason. Having been “cleared” of cancer for less than a year is a risk no GM should be making with the sort of talent being discussed. The second year is one thing, but, even then, any kind of trauma could retrigger the gene again. That much I do know. I was “clean” a year ago. I’m not now.
i’m just saying, for argument’s sake…
one could argue that cashman’s two biggest failures in new york have been his inability to deliver an ace to the pitching staff and his inability to put together a bullpen (although, that’s a pretty weak argument). but, they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07. if you want to look at torre’s “failures,” then you’d better put cashman under the same magnifying glass. if they don’t win the world series this year, should they show brian the door?
i, for one, couldn’t care less about cashman. i think he’s a decent GM, and he has certainly improved the farm system, but if you’re going to hold torre to a certain standard, why not go all out with it? if brian can’t deliver an improved team this year, a championship team, then cut him loose. find a young, brash GM who will get things going in the right direction, right?
brandon,
not what i said. i said hank’s actions and announcements weakened the yankees position in the negotiations.
GB7,
Sorry to hear about that. I hope things turn out for the best.
“they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07.”
Pedro they didn’t get becasue they didn’t have the prospects. Not even close. Same for Johnson.
Schilling was a ridiculous situation. On that one Arizona really did want to stick it to the yankees and hurt themselves by taking an awful Boston package.
I dont’ think the twins can afford to do that.
If it wasn’t for Cashman right now the yankees would be where they were with Pedro or Johnson – no shot becasuse they have no prospects.
Cashman was the first person since Stick to focus on player development. No one else was had that foresight.
Without him they’re in a position similar to the mets with a farm system like the Giants. Pitiful.
And if that had hapenned boston would be burying the yankees.
You dont’ think Omar is salivating at the idea of getting in on santana? He just can’t.
sorry to hear that GB7. think good thoughts.
i forgot to address fleas and the guitar thing. it’s a cool-looking guitar, and i wasn’t aware it had eight tuning presets or whatever, but if i’m going to spend 2 grand on a les paul, it’s going to be an old one.
but, i’d love to hear somebody play the thing. maybe it sounds great. it sure looks cool.
CB,
i was just making an argument for argument’s sake. for the most part, i was trying to skewer the idea that torre was responsible for the losses and should have been dismissed as unceremoniously as he was.
i’m fine with cashman. like i said, i couldn’t care less about the guy. he’s done a great job rebuilding the system, but he’s made some pretty poor moves, too. you take the good with the bad. he’s not a great GM in my opinion, but he’s not a terrible one, either, by any stretch of the imagination.
kasey,
I agree that everyone blaming torre was ridiculous. Being a baseball manager isn’t really rocket science, despite what everone likes to think. There’s too much chance involved. It’s nothing like football where you have a 300 page playbook and have set plays to call every down.
I know you’re just making an argument – I’m making a counter argument.
NEWSFLASH:
Not everyone in the world is enamored with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. I mean come on…MELKY CABRERA?
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/12/overnight_yankees_update.html
Somebody posted something similar. I just thought I’d post something that’s related to it.
People come off the ledge…NO TEAM IS GETTING SANTANA UNLESS THEY OVERPAY. The twins have made it clear they want Kennedy from the Yanks…They Want Elsbury and Lester from Boston.
Additionally, if you want Bedard, Haren or any other young good pitcher you will have to overpay…period. The Red Sox will not overpay.
The only reason they got schilling is bc the Diamondback GM wanted to stick it to George Steinbrenner and the Yankees for signing Boomer Wells after he had agreed to play for the Diamondbacks. He refused to deal with the yanks(said Cano and Wang sucked) and gave schilling to the Sox for a bucket of balls.
The GM of Arizona was later fired for his stupidity. As for Beckett, the Sox paid a fair price for him. The Yanks did not have the caliber of prospects.
Now the Twins want overpayment …neither the Sox nor the Yanks will take the bait
CB,
right on.
and for what it’s worth, like i said, i don’t think cashman and co. should have caved to the twins. i just think hank’s shooting his mouth off didn’t help.
if the sox get santana for a weak package, what can you do? sit back and watch them rack up the pennants, i guess, because santana-beckett is pretty tough to touch with that offense and papelbon closing out games. say what you will about dice-k, schilling and wakefield, but that’s two bona fide aces in one rotation, and it’s going to be tough to beat that for the next few years.
if the yankees are fine with that, and want to let the kids grow, see what shakes out, that’s fine by me. but don’t pretend to be a “contender” this year because, without an ace, you’re not.
and let me pose this question: if folks were loathe to part with hughes for santana, how’s everyone going to feel when the red sox get johan, the yankees panic, and hughes gets deal to oakland for haren? that a preferable situation for anyone? i thought not.
the yankees are in a pretty weak position. everyone knows they need an ace if they want to compete. with their offense, and pettitte and mo not getting any younger, they’re built to win now. and yet, with the kids in the rotation, they’re going to need a “growth period.”
figure out what you want and go after it. right now, you can’t win AND keep all of the kids. it just isn’t feasible.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 3:57 am
i’m just saying, for argument’s sake…
one could argue that cashman’s two biggest failures in new york have been his inability to deliver an ace to the pitching staff and his inability to put together a bullpen (although, that’s a pretty weak argument). but, they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07. if you want to look at torre’s “failures,†then you’d better put cashman under the same magnifying glass. if they don’t win the world series this year, should they show brian the door?
i, for one, couldn’t care less about cashman. i think he’s a decent GM, and he has certainly improved the farm system, but if you’re going to hold torre to a certain standard, why not go all out with it? if brian can’t deliver an improved team this year, a championship team, then cut him loose. find a young, brash GM who will get things going in the right direction, right?
____________________________________________________
Just so you’ll know. Cashman wasn’t the GM in Nov of ‘97 when Martinez was. Watson was the GM. Who did the Yankees have to trade to Seattle that was cheap and young and talented in ‘01 for Johnson.
I know your main love is complaining about anything, but, at least snack on some facts before the whinefest begins.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 4:05 am
sorry to hear that GB7. think good thoughts.
i forgot to address fleas and the guitar thing. it’s a cool-looking guitar, and i wasn’t aware it had eight tuning presets or whatever, but if i’m going to spend 2 grand on a les paul, it’s going to be an old one.
but, i’d love to hear somebody play the thing. maybe it sounds great. it sure looks cool.
_________________________________________________
Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming. I beat it once, I’ll do it again. I didn’t put in 3 tours in Vietnam and 20 and 30 years later the desert tours to go quietly into that goodnight.
E-Roc,
The source for that story seems to be the Sox. Who knows what’s going on at this point.
I think the sox are both serious in their interest but also wanting to get the yankees to overbid.
I mean really – all week they’ve refused to deal ellsbury and lester.
Suddenly it looks like the yankees are out and what do the sox do? Do they stick with their offer? Increase it a little?
No they capitualate to the twins after the main bidding partner has dropped out?
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Either way – if that’s the package the sox can have him. I wouldn’t not trade Hughes and Kennedy together and that’s what the twins would want.
We have to throw in Horne and A-Jax now. We simply can’t let Boston get him for just Lester, Masterson, Crisp and Lowrie.
GB7,
like i said to CB, i was making the argument for argument’s sake to skewer the torre folks.
the yankees had no one to trade in ‘01. or ‘03, for that matter.
the offense went ice cold and wang proved is “worth” as an ace in october. that’s as much torre’s fault as johnson/schilling are cashman’s fault. so why does one still have a job?
that’s all i’m saying.
“Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming.”
right on. best to you, man.
kasey,
If this trade does go through for the sox I think its worse than what you said (I can’t believe I actuall wrote that…worse than kasye said…)
In addition to Beckett and Santana they have Buchholz. He has the chance if he stays healthy to be an ace. He is the real deal.
They don’t give him up in this deal, well its sort of wrong but what can you do.
I still won’t buy this boston angle until the deal is made.
I think boston would be happy to screw the yankees by making them over pay or to have santana stay with the twins.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 4:29 am
“Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming.â€
right on. best to you, man.
___________________________________________________
No problem, Kasey. I get mouthy with anybody’s negitivity and with trolls. I don’t have time for it. I just want to see 15 more WS title so I can bookend the 15 I’ve been around for.
People relax…Boston will have to overpay…no one took Hank or his ridiculous deadline demand seriuosly…Even Steve Phillips was laughing…The twins and sox know the yanks are still in this
CB,
i think people should take the red sox seriously where santana is concerned. they came in 3rd in 06 and everyone in that front office went ape____. they spent a ton of money last winter to win, and i think they’ll keep spending. like they yankees, they’re pretty much printing money at this point.
if they can get santana on their terms, they’ll do it.
and it might be time to consider that maybe the rest of the MLB doesn’t think as highly of melky cabrera as yankees fans do. honestly, if you gave me the choice between crisp and melky in center, i’d have to think about it a while. if you gave me the choice between lester and hughes, i’d take hughes, but it wouldn’t be a landslide. and if you gave me a choice between lowrie and masterson and a b-level yankees prospect, i’d take the boston kids before you’d finished asking the question.
could just be that the twins like boston’s package better.
if so, watch out. it’s going to be an ugly few years.
“No problem, Kasey. I get mouthy with anybody’s negitivity and with trolls. I don’t have time for it. I just want to see 15 more WS title so I can bookend the 15 I’ve been around for.”
i’ve got no problem with it. i know i’m “negative guy” and i know people don’t dig it. it’s the people who say i’m not a “true” yankees fan and the people who build these ridiculous, roto-world trades who get to me.
i’m not stupid and i am a yankees fan. outside of that, any insult in response to my negativity is pretty much fair game.
Nobody is proved better than anybody until after a season is played. Anybody here remember Don Gullet? let alone Carl Pavano. Let the Bled Sox have Santana. If only that would shut their hypocritical mouths in that second rate city.
Kasey:
Enough with the doomsday scenario…you think the twins are gonna go to Boston with hat in hand and say “Well I guess the Yanks are out of it…I’ll make a bad deal with you”
No, No, No. If we have learned anything it is this. Santana never made a demand to the twins that they trade him before the season starts. The twins are ready to take Santana into the regular season…any team who gets Santana will overpay. period
Please…the Arod deal taught everyone (including the twins) that Hank is a blowhard and not to believe any nonsense coming out of his mouth.
I agree if the red sox can get this deal on their terms they’d do it.
Both ellsbury and lester don’t seem like their terms however. They seem like the twins terms.
With the yankees out the twins have less leverage. Boston ups its offer to a package that seems like its the one they’ve been refusing all along?
The one plus from this situation is that Cashman comes to the forefront now. Hank will have to pipe down
CB,
i don’t think the twins are demanding ellsbury and lester any more. i think they prefer crisp to cabrera and lowrie/masterson to any b-level yankees prospect.
i honestly think they prefer the red sox package with lester/crisp/kids.
completely my opinion, based solely upon reading about the latest wrinkle.
why will hank have to pipe down?
if he didn’t learn his lesson from crowing about the a-rod situation, he’s not going to learn from this idiocy.
when was the last time somebody named steinbrenner stepped up and said, “maybe i should tone it down a bit?”
doesn’t happen.
hank and hal are not good for the yankees. mark my words.
i’m going to get some sleep. 20 miles of I-5 is closed and i’ve got to drive eight hours tomorrow to get from portland to seattle (usually about a three-hour drive).
should be a treat. luckily, my cell phone loads pete’s blog.
i’ll say this again: everyone better hope the kids pan out because, if boston gets santana and hughes, horne and kennedy turn out to be just average, we’re going to be looking back on this move as the moment the red sox locked up a dynasty that rivals the late-90’s yankees.
Ugh, if the sux get Santana, it’s going to be another long year.
welcome to the dogfight between 2nd and 3rd place in the AL East boys and girls. Cashman has been reduced to the family pet while Hank puts his blinders on and screws the pooch.
If the Red Sox walk away with Johan Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz, this will be an EPIC Yankee failure remembered for decades to come.
15 games back in september seems about right. battling tooth and nail against the Rays in a half-filled Yankee Stadium as Garza embarrasses us while Santana throws up zero’s inning after inning for our most hated rival in meaningful games. Thanks Hank, Cash, Hal, and of course old senile George. Screw You.
Kasey:
Hank will pipe down for the winter meetings…believe I have no allusions that Hank will pipe down permanently. Don’t worry…The twins will not do the trade w/Boston unless Elsbury and Lester/Bucholz are in the deal, in my opinion.
The Yanks are still in this and the Twins know it.
East Side…I’m not in any way a Hank Steinbrenner fan. As far as I’m concerned, he needs to go back and play with his horses. He belongs in the stables. He fits in just like part of the horse, but, I see nothing wrong with what he said about this. He basically told Smith to stop screwing around and bargin like a man instead of a punk. As far as the “tampering charges”, it’s laughable at best. The JD Drew deal was about as blatant as it gets. This was no different than the tampering charges that Arizona pulled in July of ‘04 against George Steinbrenner involving Randy Johnson. I’ll stick Selig’s response in here.
http://www.nysun.com/article/141?page_no=4
Right now, the deal Steinbrenner wants to make is to bring Randy Johnson to the Yankees to shore up his tottering pitching staff, the one that even $183 million couldn’t fix.And if he has any hope of doing that, he’s going to need Bud Selig’s blessing.
Over the past week, Steinbrenner – who abhors, rightly, the very concept of the luxury tax Selig jammed down his throat in 2002, and even retained attorney David Boies to explore the possibility of suing MLB – has been overtly jockeying to worm his way into Bud’s good graces.
In fact, the kissy-fest has worked both ways. Two weeks ago, Steinbrenner gushed publicly about how much he would “love” to have Randy Johnson, a clear violation of baseball’s tampering rules if ever there was one. But there was Selig jumping to the Boss’s defense: “You know tampering when you see it… Believe me when I tell you, that is not tampering.”
Talk about hyperbole from Ant.
Santana isn’t going to the Red Sox. That kind of move and commitment goes against everything Theo and Co. have built over there in recent years.
Half-filled Yankee Stadium?
Um, no. This isn’t 1995. They will break their all-time attendance record again next season, especially since it is the final year at the old yard. Bank on it.
If, by chance, Santana does go to the Red Sox – so what?
The Yanks will hit Santana eventually just like they’ve hit Pedro, Schilling and Beckett. The more ABs they have against him, the more they’ll adjust.
Fenway isn’t exactly a left-hander’s paradise for a flyball pitcher whose homerun totals went up dramatically last season.
RSN might be the favorites again next season, but that doesn’t mean they’ll win. The games aren’t played on paper or the Yanks would’ve won a few more rings since 2000.
GreenBeret7
its not the deadline necessarily thats the problem its the public nature of it. He had an interview with a reporter from Newsday where he made a public spectacle of the “Deadline”.
They could have told Minny privately about the deadline…besides no one believes there is a deadline. If Minny gets a better offer from Boston they will go right back to the Yanks with it…my opinion is Smith has the support from Minny and the fans to keep Santana.
All the Minny fans I know are saying screw the Yanks and Soz if they don’t meet our demands…Santana is the best pitcher in baseball…he tips the scale in the AL East for the next 5 years…Santana will bring peace to the mid-east…yada…yada…yada
Giuseppe Franco..the hair commercial guy?
The Yankees will face a Massachusetts-bound Santana 5, maybe 6 times. With a starting rotation consisting of Beckett, Schilling, Santana, Dice-k and whoever else they want to trot out, even if we win all 6 of those games, i HIGHLY doubt that it will matter much in the standings. The rest of the league proved fairly inept towards the Red Sox starting pitching last year, aside from the occasional bad outing or two. Do you really feel the addition of Santana won’t just solidify an already rock solid rotation? This has bad news written all over it, whether or not you want to agree.
What about our guys? Don’t you think they will go through the growing pains almost ALL young pitchers go through? What happens when Hughes or Joba hit a wall somewhere in July and don’t figure out a way around it until September? To sit back in a few years and wonder why we couldn’t have gotten Johan Santana is going to be tough to do.
and P.S. 15 games back in late September. The Rays are coming to town. Is that a ticket you want to spend your lunch money on?
The latest rumored offer to the Twins is Lester, Lowrie, Crisp AND ELLSBURY.
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/12/overnight_yankees_update.html
Has to be more of Smith’s BS. The Red Sox will do this, plus free up money to sign Rowand? Not likely. Smith has to sleep on this deal tonight, according to unnamed inside sources.
East Side, the Twins fans have been saying that for days. Unbelievable. They come to every Yankees site making their wildest of demands and adding if NYY doesn’t do this, “I’ll just take it to the Boston Red Sox and take their deal. The fans actually think thast they are making the deal.
Ant:
Your thought process is how deals like AJ Pierszynski for Liriano, Nathan and Bonser happen.
Teams panic and wind up in baseball history books
If the Yanks thought like you did; Kennedy would be with the Texas Rangers and the Yanks would be hoping Gagne would sign with a team that did not have protected draft picks. Yikes
the AJ Pierszynski trade was made out of desperation, and i don’t really think you can compare AJ Pierszynski to Johan Santana in terms of, well, anything. Don’t say that to Johan, his temper might get the best of him.
Anyway, Santana is a proven ace. An undisputed top of the rotation starter. A Multiple Cy-Young winner. A lefty. These are all qualities that help this trade become much more then just exchanging uniforms on a bunch of men. It can single handedly decide the fate of a team for the next few years.
Remember last year’s battle cry? You know the one, “Don’t worry….Reinforcements are coming!” Well unfortunately reinforcements aren’t coming this year. They are already here, and they haven’t exactly blown anyone away either, Including the Twins Front Office who passed over them for a package consisting of a Cancer survivor who wasn’t lights out at any time in his short major league career, Count Chocula, and two guys who’s names were unknown to ANYONE until this past Saturday.
Spin it however you want it, This is a terrible day for the Yankees. They can only pray that the “Holy Trinity” really do turn out to be aces, anything short would be quite the disappointment, no?
Panic is dealing ANY of our prospects for Dan Haren. Watch that happen too.
Ant:
Calm down…The Yanks will not overpay for any pitcher AND they are still in talks with Minny for Santana.
Didn’t the Arod situation teach you anything…If the Sox get Santana it will HURT.
Hank is out of his league. He needs to let Cashman run the team and just be Cash’s yes man, not the other way around.
I can’t imagine going through a season of little hope like I’ve done with some Yankees teams of yesteryear. Santana to the Sox will undoubtedly hurt in 2008 but what bums me out is how it will hurt for years to come.
remember folks are pitchers are GOOD…If they weren’t good why is Minny demanding both Hughes and Kennedy…You think Minny plans to rebuild? No, they are gonna put them both in the rotation, Melky in centerfield and then contend for Central division.
Minny is not stupid (see mention of above pierzynski trade) they want to trade Santana and still be able to contend
If the Sox get Santana, it’ll not be the end of the world. It’ll hurt, but it’s not that serious.
Well, Ant.
Here’s why the Yankee rotation will be better than last season.
The addition of Joba along with a full season of Hughes, Kennedy, and probably Horne at some point will be far superior to the assemblage of spare parts they trotted out to the mound in 2007.
Keep this in mind, the Yankees won 92 games with these seven rag tag pitchers combining for 36 starts (which calculates to 22% of the 162 regular season games played):
Chase Wright, Kei Igawa, Tyler Clippard, Darrell Rasner, Jeff Karstens, Matt DeSalvo, and Sean Henn.
Every one of these guys are nothing more than marginal talents and will likely never amount to anything in the big leagues.
Yet, again, this team managed to win 92 games and made RSN sweat bullets the final month of the season.
Don’t rail against the kids. I understand there is going to be some rough times and growing pains. I’m fine with that because it is the best way to build a stable of horses in the rotation for long term success.
Every great pitcher was once “unproven.” Unproven doesn’t mean they won’t be able to do a sufficient job. Joba was “unproven” until he took the ball in August and starting mowing hitters down. Listing inexperience as the primary reason not to give these high ceiling arms a chance to develop is lunacy.
Winning in 2008 is important. But winning in 2009 and beyond is even more important.
on the other hand if we trade Kennedy and Hughes we will still be fighting tooth and nail for the wild card even with Santana…unless he can pitch 2-3 times per week
That comment is questionable. Winning in 2008 is just as important as winning in 2009, 2010, 2011, or 2012. They all count the same and I’d actually prefer one next year.
Assuming the wild card even comes out of the AL East.
With Santana we would have a formidable rotation. Without Santana there are more question marks than exclamation points.
I love Joba. I liked what i saw from an injured Hughes. Kennedy showed guts. But Santana is, for lack of a better term, a once in a lifetime type of pitcher. Sure, he may decline or get injured. But you can’t possibly assume that any of the three Yankees young guns will be anywhere near Santana’s caliber. Until they’ve accrued a few years, no one will know. I would rather risk losing an Ace or two and knowing I’m getting a bona fide, tried-and-true Ace, then hanging onto the prized three and ending up with a pile of relievers with arm problems. Anything is possible with young guys, which is why the risk is TREMENDOUS.
well
2:25 a.m., from Buster Olney
• The Red Sox have emerged as the favorites to land Johan Santana. Boston and Minnesota continued to talk into early Tuesday morning, with the Twins even asking to see medical reports on Red Sox left-hander Jon Lester. Last week, the Sox offered Lester, outfielder Coco Crisp, minor league infielder Jed Lowrie and another minor league pitcher for Santana.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=winter_meetings
I think that other minor league pitcher is Masterson.
“The Twins and Red Sox have concluded trade talks for the night with a deal likely within reach, the Boston Globe reports.
The Globe says there are indications that the deal would be Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson for Johan Santana. ESPN’s Buster Olney also believes that’s the package. Crisp doesn’t seem like a great fit for a Twins club that figures to have little chance of contending next year, though as outstanding as he is defensively, he is being undervalued as a trade property. The Twins would also be getting a potential No. 2 starter in Lester, a possible No. 3 or a closer in Masterson and a likely starting second baseman in Lowrie. Phil Hughes is a better bet than all of them, but the Twins must not rate him as highly as many do.”
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=NYY
That is just plain stupid, why do we have to give up Phil Hughes, and they don’t need to give up Ellsbury
Wasn’t that the original deal that Minny rejected initially from Boston and demanded Elsbury/Bucholz?
This is hilarious…each day their is some report about who is in the lead and yet a deal never gets done.
I don’t buy that they ended talks with a deal in sight…if they ended talks they are going right back to the yankees to play some more pinball.
it’s laughable that all of last season they couldn’t unload Coco Crisp for anything worth while, and now all of a sudden they’re reeling in Johan Santana for Crisp and whoever else.
bphill–Because it’s the Yankees and they’re loved by few and hated by many.
god bless andy p. wonder if the fo knew about this prior to hanks verbiage, my guess is they did. with andy choosing to return the situation is a bit less panick driven anyway. my guess is andy sensed the need for his decision to be made, before they traded away the farm. it gives the yanks some more flexibility in dealing with the twinkies. would also beleive he knows just what kind of rotation the yanks could have with satan. there is the makings of a possible strong lineup with or without satan. satan would be nice though.
No, Chris. That’s not at all what I meant.
In other words, I’d rather take a chance with these kids for 2008 in order to develop and build a championship caliber rotation for the next 5-6 years.
Building a rotation geared for long term success is more important than going for broke and mortgaging the future to win in 2008.
That is exactly what Cashman and Co. is doing and I believe it’s the right strategy.
So do the vast majority of Yankee fans.
The fact that the Twins are valuing someone like Ellsbury at an equal or higher level than Phil Hughes really makes me have no interest in trading with them. No reason to get bent over because Smith is an idiot.
Does anybody know anything about this Albaladejo kid the Yanks just traded Clippard for? All I heard was he was a reliever with only 14 innings of major league experience.
Somethings are just not ment to be. However this reminds me of alot of the deals lately, the Yankees get held over a barrel and the Sawx give up garbage for real talent i.e. Schilling, Gagne, and now Santana. If this deal is real they will still have to sign him.
Jim PA – He’s a big Joba-size guy, decent K rates and good BB/9 numbers in the minors. He’s been in the minors for a good six years now but he’s only 25, drafted out of high school by the Pirates. I like this trade – grab a young arm with a bit of a track record and see what sticks.
Yankees are damned if they do, damned if they don’t with the media right now.
If Yankees get Santana, they’ve given up too many kids & threw a ton of money at another superstar. Hank is considered too impulsive and wants immediate gratification.
YET, if the Red Sox get him, the Yankees are screwed for the next 10 years, Boston’s FO is considered patient, smart & the most brillant human beings ever created. And giving up young talent doesn’t seem like a negative for whatever reason. (But if the Yanks trade a 25yr old for someone 26 or above, it’s the same old Yankees getting older).
For sure Kevin..
I still think this is more bs & posturing. Don’t forget that it was all over the news yesterday that the Sox were never really in the deal to begin with, thereby leaving the Twins with a lot less leverage in their dealings with the Yanks. By asking for medical records we’re supposed to believe this is close & that we’ll panic prompting Hank to overreact & raid the farm. I pray this doesn’t happen. I strongly believe that this is a deal we will look on as one we’re glad we never made.
Ant,
Please. Most people here and YANKEE FANS who will support the team no matter what the growing pains are. We’ve known for two years now what the plan was and, trust me, this is never going to be a Marlins-style youth movement. There aren’t many youth movements out there which include paying Alex Rodriguez a zillion dollars for ten years. We will be fighting in the end, no matter what.
Besides, who doesn’t have a soft spot for those 1991 Chuck Cary Yankees?
We’ll be fine. If the Sox get Santana and win the Series again (and that’s a big IF, even with Santana, since there’s still 29 other teams out there), that’s OK. I’m counting on our talent to win us another five series later. Why don’t we gather again in the year 2100 and see who’s won more championships? Let me answer in advance:
THE NEW YORK YANKEES.
From MLBTrade Rumors .com
Red Sox Making Progress On Johan Santana
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:04am: Tim Brown checks in. He confirms the Twins are checking Lester’s medical records. He says the current deal on the table is Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and a minor leaguer. A Red Sox official was said to be “cautiously optimistic.” If the current scenario is accurate, perhaps the Twins have finally bent on their demand for both Lester and Ellsbury.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:57am: Rosenthal notes that the Sox have roared back into the Santana derby, but says that as midnight passed the Yankees were still talking to the Twins. Hmmm, maybe midnight eastern time because I think Cashman went to bed already.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:25am: Looks like things with the Red Sox are moving along – the Red Sox have given the Twins Lester’s medical records to review.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:15am: Unconfirmed report from the Boston Globe says the Red Sox were looking at Santana’s medical records, which could imply an agreement. Or maybe they just wanted to check out his medical records.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:06am: Hank Steinbrenner expressed doubt that his team would get a Santana team done when talking to Kat O’Brien. However, she spoke to him at 11:45pm CST on Monday, and we had two updates since then. Anyway, discussions are not yet closed off.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:49am: Bleeding over into Tuesday…Stark has an update that pretty much echoes Heyman.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:38am: SI.com’s Jon Heyman has the goods. The Twins wanted a package of Hughes, Cabrera, Horne, and Jackson from the Yankees and they balked. They’ve asked the Red Sox to create a new proposal with Lester in it. Sounds like the Red Sox have the lead at the moment. Heyman thinks the Twins will make a decision soon.
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 11:09pm: Yahoo’s Tim Brown talked to a Boston official who believes the Yankees are “very close” to completing a Santana trade. However a source of mine just indicated that the meeting ended in a standoff because the Twins continue to demand Ian Kennedy in the deal.
Didn’t know Crisp and Lester were better than Melky and Hughes. The problem is now, lets hope the NYY don’t waste good prospects on a Haren trade, I don’t care how cheap he is thru the next three yeras.
Not even close in skill or stature to Johan.
I say go with what they got for ‘08… Maybe Johan or CC will be free agents next year, along with Big Tex.
If the Twins are willing to take Crisp, Lester, and Masterson over Hughes, Melky, and another, then let the Sox have Santana.
This whole situation has passed on into absurdity.
I gotta say, I’m with Hank on this. Enough dicking around. How can anyone take the Twins seriously when they are considering taking less from the Sox than from the Yankees.
It’s a business, not a knitting bee and ogres abound. You do business with them if it improves your team. Period. The Twins are not making a deal for lesser talent just to shove it up Hank’s pipe and to spite the Yankees. For whatever reasons, they like Boston’s package better. If the Twins land Santana in a deal centered on Lester, without Ellsbury or Buckholz, more power to Boston. And all you “Save Phils” out there, you better hope the kid shines like the sun next season. The Yanks are sure going to need it. I agree, however, that IPK plus Hughes was too much if that was the final straw.
Note to GB7: My father’s been through prostate, colon and esophageal cancer. Now he has “MDS” (pre-leukemia), possibly as a result of chemo and radiation for the others. The good folks at Memorial Sloan Kettering, the Yankees’ partners in the “Yankees Universe,” gave my dad an extra 15 years since the prostate. The esophageal was the worst scare, but a world class surgeon at MSK helped him beat that so far too. He’s a tough old dog at 77 and still fighting. BTW, he was regular NAVY. If regular NAVY can do it, a Green Beret can too. Fight the good fight, brother.
Haren will cost just as much because his salary over the next four yrs. He is also not really an ace – he was pretty fantastic last yr but career-wise – he is just pretty good, not great. If we have to give up hughes, chamberlain or cano for haren, i would keep negotiating with the twins. This is such s$&#. First, we hear hughes is the sticking point and if the yanks offer hughes along with melky and a prospect we have him. The yanks agree and then, a high level prospect is the sticking point. Now, hat high level prospect has to be ian kennedy. The twins just keep upping the deal – at this point, lets just wait for santana to be a free agent next season. Its clear the yanks are the only team that want him and we are not traing hughes, kennedy and melky for one yr of cheap santana and then, a six or seven yr 150 million dollar deal when we can just pay the money next off season and keep our possible ace, startin centerfielder and possible third starter.
I cannot stress this enough…do not let billy beane fleece you into giving up philip hughes for dan haren!!!
i would think about kennedy plus melkey for him but under no circumstances do i give up hughes for him
anyone agree?
Murph is right. The Twins aren’t “sticking it to Hank” because of deadlines. or talking. Its not how people work in baseball. Sometimes, deals just don’t get done.
If I was the GM, I would not have put Hughes and Kennedy in the same deal. Too much from the Yankees side.
If you examine the Red Sox rumored offer (Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson), they aren’t doing it either.
Masterson is a AA pitcher (equal to Alan Horne from the Yankees side). There aren’t two ML pitchers in the deal, as it would have been with Hughes and Kennedy.
Crisp is a more expensive version of Melky.
Lowrie? At this time, the Yankees don’t have a middle infield prospect as good as Lowrie.
Looks like the twins pushed the Yankees to the point to where they just decided to walk away. A danger when you keep playing one team off another. At some point, a team gets tired of it and walks away.
The tough part from the Yankees side is, if the Sox get Santana, there is not a counter move for the Yankees.
Haren is not as good as Santana and will cost them more prospects.
Bedard and Kazmir aren’t available to the Yankees.
It means, you have to hope Hughes and Kennedy are the real deal.
If not, regardless of all the tough talk, you are chasing Boston for years.
Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling and Buchholz, with Wakefield as the swing guy. A very formidable rotation.
Jon,
Agreed. Hughes should be off the table if we’re not talking about Haren.
Crap – I mean if we’re not talking about Santana.
Rule: Finish your first cup of coffee before submitting your 1st blog entry of the day.
Boston doesn’t want him. This is just a front. If they give up two top prospects (lester and ellsbury) let them. Worse comes to worse we get him next year and still have hughes.
murphydog
December 4th, 2007 at 7:58 am
It’s a business, not a knitting bee and ogres abound. You do business with them if it improves your team. Period. The Twins are not making a deal for lesser talent just to shove it up Hank’s pipe and to spite the Yankees. For whatever reasons, they like Boston’s package better. If the Twins land Santana in a deal centered on Lester, without Ellsbury or Buckholz, more power to Boston. And all you “Save Phils†out there, you better hope the kid shines like the sun next season. The Yanks are sure going to need it. I agree, however, that IPK plus Hughes was too much if that was the final straw.
Note to GB7: My father’s been through prostate, colon and esophageal cancer. Now he has “MDS†(pre-leukemia), possibly as a result of chemo and radiation for the others. The good folks at Memorial Sloan Kettering, the Yankees’ partners in the “Yankees Universe,†gave my dad an extra 15 years since the prostate. The esophageal was the worst scare, but a world class surgeon at MSK helped him beat that so far too. He’s a tough old dog at 77 and still fighting. BTW, he was regular NAVY. If regular NAVY can do it, a Green Beret can too. Fight the good fight, brother.
________________________________________________
Thanks, Murph. Like I said, the Yanks still owe me 15 titles, and, I’m gonna collect ‘em. I’ve got no kick, though. I’ve done what I weanted, other than playing center field after Mantle, but, Murcer was at least passible as a replacement. I had a long career, and saw everything. No regrets on any of it, but, it was expensive. It wrecked two marriages.
I really think fans are going to be sitting here on this website in July thinking, “if only we included Alan Horne…”
Johan is turning out to be a HoF pitcher in his prime, and the Yankees could obtain him for a league average CF, 2 pitching prospects, and another positional prospect. Assuming the Saux package is as reported, it would prob take Hughes, Melky, Gonzalez, and Horne to reach a deal, and I’d hardly call including Horne right now a deal-breaker.
With news of Pettitte coming back, this was the time to go for the throat, IMO.
I do like BC’s move yesterday, moving Clippard for a big arm for the pen… Clippard is what he is, which is a back of the rotation/long relief guy who really didnt have a home in NY anymore, so if you can get an upside arm to throw intho the bullpen mix for him, why not?
At this point, there are a couple guys who I’d take a flyer on for the right price… Haren would be a solid pickup, but Beane is going to want too much. Instead of Haren, I’d make a more aggresive move for Huston Street, who could really help solidify the back end of the pen, which would enable Cash to move Farnsworth, and keep Joba in the rotation.
I’d also take a shot at Ben Sheets or Rich Harden, who both have injury issues, but have great raw ability. You could prob have either for a package that would be less than one of the Holy Trinity, plus some other moving parts.
All we can do is wait and see what happens…..If the sux get Santana, we will just have to deal with it. Remember at the end of the day The Yankees are still the Yankees and the sux will always be the second team……
I never understood the purpose behind “the deadline.” As far as I can tell the only thing it will do is make Hank look even worse than he already does.
Santana will still end up a Yankee. Unfortunately from my perspective.
NASHVILLE, Dec. 3 — The Yankees’ pursuit of Johan Santana showed a flicker of life early Tuesday morning when the Minnesota Twins backed off their demand that the right-hander Ian Kennedy be added to the Yankees’ trade offer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/sp…301&ei=5087%0A
HMMMMMM……..
Morning all
Stay cool today. This is overnight stuff all sounds like inplausible posturing.
SJ- great post, ridiculous final comment.
i’m so tired of assuming an overabundance of “superstar names” guarantees you victory. it’s 1-9 baseball that wins championships, the kind of ball we played from 96 to 2000. we learn to do that again, with the players we have, and we even the playing field.
TurnTwo
December 4th, 2007 at 8:13 am
I really think fans are going to be sitting here on this website in July thinking, “if only we included Alan Horne…â€
Johan is turning out to be a HoF pitcher in his prime, and the Yankees could obtain him for a league average CF, 2 pitching prospects, and another positional prospect. Assuming the Saux package is as reported, it would prob take Hughes, Melky, Gonzalez, and Horne to reach a deal, and I’d hardly call including Horne right now a deal-breaker.
With news of Pettitte coming back, this was the time to go for the throat, IMO.
I do like BC’s move yesterday, moving Clippard for a big arm for the pen… Clippard is what he is, which is a back of the rotation/long relief guy who really didnt have a home in NY anymore, so if you can get an upside arm to throw intho the bullpen mix for him, why not?
At this point, there are a couple guys who I’d take a flyer on for the right price… Haren would be a solid pickup, but Beane is going to want too much. Instead of Haren, I’d make a more aggresive move for Huston Street, who could really help solidify the back end of the pen, which would enable Cash to move Farnsworth, and keep Joba in the rotation.
I’d also take a shot at Ben Sheets or Rich Harden, who both have injury issues, but have great raw ability. You could prob have either for a package that would be less than one of the Holy Trinity, plus some other moving parts.
_________________________________________________
Depending on the price, which means none of the 3 starters Tabta and Jackson, my preference would be Harden. It would make it easier if he had a bigger contract, though. Imagine him setting up for Rivera. I think he’s too risky to be a starter, though.
NASHVILLE, Dec. 3 — The Yankees’ pursuit of Johan Santana showed a flicker of life early Tuesday morning when the Minnesota Twins backed off their demand that the right-hander Ian Kennedy be added to the Yankees’ trade offer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/sports/baseball/04yankees.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin
Lester Sucks
Crisp Sucks
If the Twins do that deal it will be highway robbery on the Red Sox part. We demand Hughes and Kennedy but will take garbage from the Sox. Kind of like the Diamondbacks when they asked for Soriano and Nick Johnson for Schilling and the Red Sox got him for the formidable Casey Fossum
GB7:
I hear you. Some of us break a lot of china as we go through life. (I did too). But it’s time to live in the moment. For right now, the future is Feb. 14th, “pitchers and catchers.” Be well.
I read in the paper that Cash refered to Krazy Kyle as Mr. Farnsworth. Interesting to me, since I’ve never heard him refer to a player as Mr. … It is always by first names or nicknames.
One other point…..
Don’t let the media fashion your opinion, as kevin said in an earlier post. If Hank spends for Santana, Arod, etc, its the “Yankees will spend ANYTHING to win”. Lupica’s 8,125th “Yankees spend too much column” is in today’s Daily News.
If they don’t get him its, “Hank’s mouth cost them Santana”.
Fact is, neither is true.
When you make deals, you have situations that come up when you have to decide to do it or not do it. Call them, “breaking points”.
In this case, the Yankees breaking point was Hughes and Kenndey in the same deal. You can’t blame them for that.
Can’t have it both ways. Can’t blame Hank for spending AND for not spending (in terms of prospects).
Look at it objectively and think like a GM and not as a fan.
Would you put Hughes and Kennedy in the same deal for Santana, knowing if you don’t, the Red Sox get him?
I am as big a “Get Santana” guy as anybody. If I was the GM, I wouldn’t do it. Too much to give up from the Yankees side.
Looking at it from the outside, it seems to me the Twins played the Yankees and Red Sox off each other too much and the team with the better offer (Yankees) got tired and walked away.
If that’s true, and the Twins take a lesser package from Boston for Santana, that’s on Smith, not Hank.
As good as Santana is, and he is great, you can’t blow up the entire system for one guy.
If this deal goes through, we will find out how much Santana wants to play in Boston. Throughout the process rumors (and comments from people in the know) were sure he didn’t want to play in Boston. We may soon find out how true those comments/rumors are.
Of course Haren would come cheaper. He isn’t half the pitcher Santana is.
My problem with this whole situation is that now, Boston has the best 1-2 punch in baseball and the Yankees are a distant 2nd to them in terms of pitching. Boston, if they do pull this trade off, have set themselves up to be a force for a nice bit here.
Also, the Yankees better not go out and throw all they have at Bedard or Haren. It was Santana or bust for me and they missed.
One thing is for sure.
Santana better take Boston to the cleaners when it comes to take contract. He needs to tell them how it’s going to work, not vice-versa. If I see him settle for a ridiculous contract, I’m going to be highly annoyed.
Thanks for the thoughts, Murph. I never worry about the world of china and crystal. I’m more concerned about paper plates not holding enough of the good stuff. Sometimes they hold and you don’t look like an uncoordinated oaf and sometimes they don’t and you end up looking like you’re waiting for the short bus. I live life one WS title at a time.
SJ:
“Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling and Buchholz, with Wakefield as the swing guy. A very formidable rotation.”
Yeah, that’s going to be trouble.
But I’m curious what you think about this. If the Sox could get Nathan, or some other closer, instead of Santana, they could move Papelbon into the rotation while keeping Lester and saving $160 mil. Obviously, there aren’t many good available closers out there and Paps would be on innings limits. But, a rotation of Beckett, Papelbon, Dice-K, Buckholz and Wakefield (forget Schilling) looks pretty good too and is much cheaper.
“If the Red Sox get Santana,” said an executive of one NL team that’s grateful to be in the other league, “they might be the best team in the history of the frigging universe.”
espn.com Jayson Stark
Personally, I would have done the Hughes/Melky/Horne deal.
Give me Hughes, Wang, Chamberlin, Kennedy for 2010 to 2015 over Santana, Beckett, Dice-K.
The Yankees will beat Santana and Beckett on the Sox. It comes down to how we do against them head to head. We handled Pedro, we’ll handle Santana. We did fine versus Beckett this year if my memory serves me.
- KMT
I don’t buy into this bs about the medical reports. I think they are playing the Soxs as well as us. They want to scare the Yankees into a package of Hughes, Kennedy, Melky or Hughes, melky, Home (sp), Jackson. Don’t bite HANK!!
“…it will be fascinating to see if the Yankees feel the need to respond by reeling in another ace of their own.”
HUH?
What ace do we have right now?
if Boston doesn’t get Santana, this is the perfect opportunity for us to pull Hughes off the table. That may well be the reason Hank issued the deadline (knowing Pettitte was coming back). They missed the deadline, and can now come back and we can say, too late, Hughes is off the table, take IPK, Melky, and Horne. No worries about us going against our word or losing credibility.
Otherwise, go after Haren for a package that does not include Joba, Hughes, Wang, or Cano.
Sunny, the running back and forth by Smith in order to squeeze the last drop of blood from the rock wasn’t going to stop until somebody said, “Stop this BS..we’re gone.” Steinbrenner had enough and said it.
OH please, why does everyone automatically think they will do wonderfully with them. Beckett won’t have the same year, Dice K could go either way, The mouth is a year older and always hurt, Wake same. Last year we handled every one of those pitchers. Games are not played on paper.
Murph,
The only problem with that scenario is, I don’t think Papelbon’s shoulder is strong enough to pitch 150+ innings a year.
I think he is best suited for closing because its easier on his arm.
Sunny, the only problem with proposed deal is, the Twins still kept asking for more.
At one point, they wanted Hughes, Cabrera, Horne and Jackson.
It just never ends. Every combination the Yankees come up with, thinking that can finally finish the deal, the Twins kept upping the ante.
You see that behavior a lot with the Marlins and Rays. They just keep asking and asking and they end up not being able to do a deal.
For those of you paranoid about Hank’s comments, vis a vie, tampering charges, read what Ozzie Guillen has to say about Miguel Cabrera today. He’s practically acting like the guys agent!
People talk. Some more than others. In the grand scheme of things, it means nothing.
murphydog – papelbon is closing… period. no chance he goes back to the rotation at this point.
I say… offer Hughes, Cabrera, AJ, Marquez
No Kennedy but AJ can go for Santana.
SJ44, I posted a piece earlier about the last tampering charge that involved George Steinbrenner and Randy Johnson in 2004. It included Selig’s quote. The tampering charge is a non-issue.
the question everyone in the yankee organization that they must ask each other is if they can afford to, as sj44 puts its, “a team gets tired of it and walks away.”?
Why walk away when the red soxs are getting a great pitcher? What put them in that situation? What happened that they got out theoed, out hanked or out yankeed?
Whatever happen, it happened. It sucks and now they must ask themselves is it worth it getting tired and walking away.
GB: Keep fighting. In many of our books, you’re a hero.
Santana to the Sox is NOT the end of the world. We will score around 1000 runs again this year. We have the best closer in the game. We have one of the best big game pitchers in the game (Andy). We have a group of kids with enormous talent.
We will make the playoffs. If ANY of the Trinity becomes an Ace, I think we win #27.
Back away from the ledge. We will be more than fine. IN fact, I think the future is very bright.
Even so SJ44, now it looks like the Twins will “settle” for a lesser offer and the Sox will get Santana. I know this is on Bill the moron Smith, but it still is frustrating.
Wow, if the Sox accept the Lester/Crisp package…that’s just ridiculous. They’re accepting a worse package from the Red Sox than they were willing to take from the Yankees. That’s nonsense.
Crisp doesn’t hit and costs a bunch of money. Lester is a league-average pitcher who doesn’t eat innings. Lowrie has a half season at AAA, and Masterson is Ohlendorf minus the velocity.
THAT is better than Hughes, Melky and someone else? If they want more quantity…fine, take KENNEDY and Melky, and then you can ask about Jackson or Tabata again.
B. Dave, The Sox haven’t changed their offer from the start. They asked a bunch of baseball execs about the deals and they all said the same thing…one in particular said the Boston offer wasn’t was a non-starter and NYY’s first offer blew it out of the water.
remember, you will hear and read what you are supposed to read and heart
So are we just supposed to keep upping our offer? There comes a point where you draw a line in the sand and say this is our offer, take it or leave it.
SJ:
Thanks.
One more thing, if the Twins still kept asking for more, as SJ puts it, then how could they strike a deal with the Red Soxs without including Clay or Jacoby?
If im an objective G.M. and i look at the situation, obviously there is more out there, if they kept asking the world for the yankees and the red sox can get away without giving up their top two, it just doesnt seem to add up.
DadinIowa
December 4th, 2007 at 8:42 am
GB: Keep fighting. In many of our books, you’re a hero.
Santana to the Sox is NOT the end of the world. We will score around 1000 runs again this year. We have the best closer in the game. We have one of the best big game pitchers in the game (Andy). We have a group of kids with enormous talent.
We will make the playoffs. If ANY of the Trinity becomes an Ace, I think we win #27.
Back away from the ledge. We will be more than fine. IN fact, I think the future is very bright.
_________________________________________________
Thanks Dad, but, I’m no hero. Those guys are in Arlington…those and the nurses that tried patching kids together again. I was just a guy that was too lazy back in 1967 to get a real job.
This is what I don’t understand – why is the Sox’s package considered so well by the Twins with a comparable if not better package by the Yanks is a sticking point???
After Yanks’ deadline passes, Red Sox jump into lead for Santana
By Jayson Stark
ESPN.com
(Archive)
Updated: December 4, 2007, 3:23 AM ET
* Comment
* Email
* Print
NASHVILLE — While Hank Steinbrenner set deadlines and publicly lusted after Johan Santana, the Red Sox just bided their time and stayed in the game.
And what do you know? As Monday night turned into Tuesday morning at the winter meetings, suddenly it was the Red Sox who loomed as the favorites to pull off a deal for the best pitcher in baseball.
Jon Lester
Lester
Johan Santana
Santana
ESPN the Magazine’s Buster Olney reported early Tuesday that the Twins asked the Red Sox for permission to review the medical records of pitcher Jon Lester, amid indications a Red Sox-Twins trade could go down sometime during the early-morning hours.
If the Twins were satisfied with Lester’s medicals, it’s believed they would accept a swap of him, Coco Crisp, shortstop prospect Jed Lowrie and either highly regarded pitching prospect Justin Masterson or another player.
Or if the Twins reversed field and decided they wanted center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury instead, it’s believed that would be a 3-for-1 trade — with only Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie going to Minnesota.
However, the Red Sox apparently remained adamant that while either Ellsbury or Lester was available, they would trade one or the other — but not both — in any trade.
The Twins also spent much of Monday night exploring potential 3-for-1 and 4-for-1 trades with the Yankees — and getting shot down on all their proposals.
According to baseball officials who were aware of those talks, the Twins initially asked for pitcher Ian Kennedy, along with pitcher Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera.
After being told Kennedy wasn’t available if Hughes was part of the deal, the Twins apparently proposed expanding the trade into a 4-for-1 swap, with players they considered to be lesser prospects than Kennedy. But the Yankees quickly rejected that pitch, too.
All this took place while the Yankees counted down toward their self-imposed Monday night deadline, set against senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner’s threats that the Yankees felt they had the best deal on the table and they would walk away if the Twins didn’t say yes.
“I want to get it done by tonight, one way or another,” Steinbrenner said earlier Monday, according to The Associated Press. “I’m waiting for a meeting in Nashville, and then Brian [Cashman] will give me a call.”
The deadline was intended to nudge the Twins into action. Little did the Yankees suspect it might actually work to the Red Sox’s benefit.
New Twins general manager Bill Smith didn’t seem concerned about the deadline at any rate.
“We’ve got good players. We have players that maybe other clubs would like to acquire,” he said, according to the AP. “We’ve had a lot of years where we keep going over and picking up the phone receiver to be make sure the dial tone was still [there]. We couldn’t get the phone to ring.”
All along, the Yankees seemed to believe that the Red Sox weren’t seriously pursuing Santana, that the Boston game plan was to stay just interested enough to force the Yankees to overpay for him. Apparently not.
One source who spoke with the Red Sox delegation told ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick that the Red Sox group was just sitting around their suite Monday night, watching the Patriots-Ravens game, when Smith called and asked to see Lester’s medicals.
That got those teams’ wheels turning again — and did so, coincidentally, at the same time the Yankees were almost simultaneously beginning to talk themselves out of this trade.
Officials from other clubs said several of the Yankees’ baseball personnel at the meetings had begun openly questioning whether they even wanted to make this trade if the Twins said yes.
“The more this goes on,” said one AL executive, “the less they want to do it.”
The Twins haven’t budged since Friday. They wanted Kennedy then, and they still did on Monday.
Meanwhile, officials from other clubs said some Yankees baseball personnel at the meetings have continued to agonize over the inclusion of Hughes in their offer, out of fear Hughes could come back to haunt them for years. So clearly, the decision to include Hughes in the first place was far from unanimous.
Cashman admitted there’s a fear that players he might trade could win Cy Young Awards for another team.
“I’m definitely fully invested in a lot of the young talent. You get attached to it,” Cashman said, according to the AP.
And if the Yankees had any inclination whatsoever to waver on their stand a few days ago, the news Monday that Andy Pettitte had decided to return undoubtedly helped ease those concerns.
With Pettitte back, the Yankees can mount a respectable rotation, with or without Santana — around Pettitte, Chien-Ming Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy and Mike Mussina. They also are expected to renew their efforts to trade for Oakland’s Dan Haren.
But if the Red Sox wind up sweeping Santana out from under them — and adding him to a rotation that already includes Josh Beckett, Curt Schilling and Daisuke Matsuzaka — it will be fascinating to see if the Yankees feel the need to respond by reeling in another ace of their own.
True Yankee fans know the best Yankee “Santana” will always be SS Raphael Santana.
Hughes is better than Lester (the Yanks consider him a future Cy Young candidate)
Melky is better and cheaper than Crisp
b-prospect is not as good as Masterson.
so include Horne.
What is Smith’s problem??
sunny615 I don’t understand either. Coco to me is nothing special, Lester has a 4.68 era!
elsbery who they are so hot for has 116 ab. I mean come on!!
Where are all those people who kept saying Boston wasn’t serious?
This just sucks. Boston kept their top 2 two prospects and adds a dominating starter. You cant really spin this.
GB: You’re right about the nurses and those in Arlington and thousands of other resting places. But, you’re still appreciated, real job or not.
Maybe Rebecca’s optimism is contagious, but I CAN’T WAIT for the season to start. Let Santana go to Boston. Nothing I like more than the Yankees to be underdogs. Somehow, Girardi, Jeter, Posada, Andy, etc. will convey the toughness to the kids that they need to have.
1000 runs, competition to be the next young Yankee ace, competition for the 8th inning job, and the soft death Mo puts on batters in the 9th inning….. , # 27……I CAN’T WAIT.
This is the right move the Yankees are making, walking away.
It does look the trade will happen today with Boston, and then they negotiate with Santana in what I guess will be the standard 72 hour window.
Are the players the Sox are trading really an inferior package? I am not too familiar with Lowrie and Masterson.
The trade does make Boston in theory the odds on favorite for years with that rotation, but I also think that assumes Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain take long to reach their potential or don’t reach it at all. I do think Beckett will be consistent, and have years a lot like 2007.
But I also am genuinely optimistic about Joba, Hughes and Kennedy, with guys like Horne and Marquez developing as well.
You can’t run trades like the Cold War. It will get the Yanks nowhere to submit to this thinking. I know it’s Santana that we are talking about but they need so much more than just one player like him to get further in the post season than they’ve been getting.
Finally, if the Sox package is lesser and Smith is just trying to stick it to the Yankees, then that’s just dumb, pernicious, completely unprofessional and irresponsible behavior that betrays the Twins baseball club and their fans.
Jennifer, the Sox are not including Ellsbury. I cant believe the Twins gave in to their offer and not the Yanks.
wow,
i really hope hughes is as good as yanks fans and yanks management thinks he is.. cuz if johan goes to boston for lester
beckett/johan/dice k/bucholtz – for atleast the next 3 years.
i seriously cant believe the yanks dont want the best 28yr old pitcher in the game.. hell, we wanted a $45 yr old $18mil half a season.. ohh boy..
“I say… offer Hughes, Cabrera, AJ, Marquez
No Kennedy but AJ can go for Santana.”
No.
If Hughes is in there, they’re not getting serious value in the extra pieces. If Buchholz isn’t in the conversation, phil is by far the best pitcher on the table, and that means that the extra pieces don’t have to match up to Lowrie.
Hughes >> Lester
Melky + 5 mil > Crisp
AJ Masterson
Why should the Yankees have to put up that package when it blows away the Sox package? Why not something that’s just a bit better, if the Twins aren’t getting the coveted Ellsbury from the Sox?
Damned HTML filter
That was
AJ is less good than lowrie, but marquez is better than Masterson
sunny615 – What is Smith’s problem?
I have no idea. It’s like Smith is the bandleader in the Godfather who let’s Johnny Fontaine out of his contract early.
Maybe Theo and Larry pulled a Don Corleone and Lucca Brazi on Smith – the made him and offer he couldn’t refuse.
“Either your signature is on this trade or your brains will be.”
“Leave the gun. Take the chow-dah.”
It’s been our honor and pleasure, Dad.
Well, not always a pleasure KP and latrine duty stunk.
The Yankees aren’t being outmanuvered.
You can’t put a gun to somebody’s head to do a deal.
Who knows, maybe Smith slept on it and realizes he left the better deal on the table.
I had a feeling the deal was going to fall apart (from the Yankees side) the other day when the Twins kept shopping the Yankees offers.
Usually, when you have a sticking point on a player (in this case, in the inclusion of Hughes in the deal), once that player is added, you usually make the deal.
Ini the Twins case, after Hughes was added to the deal, they seemed to say, “ok, thanks”, and kept shopping it.
If I was the owner or the GM of the Yankees, that would tick me off enough to walk away.
At some point, you either have a deal or you don’t.
I don’t care how you slice it, if Santana goes to the Red Sox for Lester, Crisp, Lowrie and Masterson, that is a light deal from the Twins side and a steal from the Red Sox side.
If Bill Smith costs the Twins Phil Hughes and deals for a guy making ten times more than Melky (and isn’t 10 times the player) in a Santana deal, his tenure in Minnesota won’t be a long one.
That’s a bad deal for the Twins.
Its why I will wait and see if that becomes the deal.
This thing still has a lot of moving parts to it.
It must be understood that in the final analysis, Santana’s long term contract will be a huge factor and the Yankees have more resources than Boston, now and in the future.
Boston can float out all the names that they think are attractive and the Twins can agree but it all comes to a screeching halt when dollars are discussed with Santana and Peter Greenberg.
With the highest ticket prices in all of baseball already, Boston fans would be asked to “pony up” for yet another enormous ticket hike for squeezing themselves in a small venue.
Santana has to ask the question himself of what kind of team will he be playing on ? He knows the Yankees will always be interested in putting the best product on the field. On the other hand, how long can Boston continue to be Yankee wannabes playing in a dead end venue and continuing to paint themselves in a financial corner.
A sane Boston ownership would save face with their fanbase by saying they tried to get a deal done but the price of a Santana was far beyond what they could justify along with depleting their already so-so farm system.
Just because the soxs handed over medical records doesn’t mean they are serious. This could be a dog and pony show to scare the Yankees into giving up a huge package. You need a strong stomach for this business and I’m sure Cash is drinking alot of malox.
Nolan I don’t understand it either, everyone wants to fleece the Yankees! And watch the articles if the soxs get him, everyone will praise them. But if the Yankees got him it would be the evil empire. And I love how everyone is bringing up what the Yankees are spending this off season. IT is all on players they had last year. Not one of them is from the free agent market! Meanwhile last year the Cubs spent 300 million and what did it get them?
Meanwhile Mark Feinsand says the Yankees are moving on to Dan Haren. Brian Cashman will probably find equal if not bigger demands coming from Billy Beane.
hahaha.. good look cash and hank..
dont screw this one up too..
“Are the players the Sox are trading really an inferior package? I am not too familiar with Lowrie and Masterson.”
It’s certainly a quantity over quality.
Masterson is a total throw in. Lowrie is an interesting hitting middle infield prospect, but his fielding is supposedly lousy. He also has a whole half-season at AAA.
But Lester is far inferior to Phil, and Crisp is a better fielder than Melky, true, but far more expensive and a mediocre hitter. Of course, they’re trying to make up for Hunter’s D here, I guess. Maybe the Sox are sending cash too.
Florida Yank, ticket prices have NO correlation with the player salaries, only the demand for tickets.
the yankees made a BETTER offer than the Red Sox.
what more do you want?
if you don’t draw a line, you will make a bad trade.
their offer is ALREADY better.
just remember that.
What is funny is all the Twin’s insiders insisting that you would not be able to make a deal based on quantity. The Sox deal is all about quantity- 4 solid players, none of whom projects as an all-star type talent.
Good for Hank. For years other teams held up the Yanks for better prospects than they would have taken from other teams because they knew George wanted the big splash and would pay extra for it. Fred McGriff, Jay Buhner, Willie McGee, Doug Drabek and so on. Remember Tony Armas Jr.? We traded him to the Sox to rent Mike Stanley and, a few months later, the Sox used him as half of their deal for Pedro. The Gagne deal is the latest example. Now it seems that we are supposed to believe that a deal led by Ellsbury OR Lester requires the Yanks to include Hughes AND Melky AND Jackson plus? No way! And don’t say Coco is equal to Melky — he isn’t and he’s overpaid to boot; from Boston’s standpoint, trading him is addition by subtraction.
Last year, Cash played patiently and got Abreu for nothing that we will deeply regret. Now that Hank emerged as a player, the other teams likely want to gut-check the Yanks again. So good for hank to walk away. And for the poster who recalled the US-USSR negotiations in the 70’s, remember that Reagan walked away from Gorbachev at Reykjavik in 1986 when Gorbo threw in a last minute request to drop Star Wars, and the next year Gorbo came back suing for peace.
Complicating this is the brilliant job Epstein is doing. I don’t know if he really wants Santana or is trying to make the Yanks overpay. But he is moving players in and out with the skill of a three-card-monte player: now it’s Lester, now it’s Ellsbury and not Lester, now it’s Lester and we dump Coco on you. Then leak something to the press. Is he in cahoots with Minny or is he really trying to get Santana on the cheap?
Last thoughts. The Yankees thanks to Cashman have built up a deep stable of top pitching prospects. Some will make it, some will not. Some will get injured. In the Dynasty period 1949-64, only ONE pitcher played a big role for as long as ten years and that was Ford. Grim, Turley, Sturdivant, Kucks, Terry, Bouton, all came up, were All-Stars, and burned out. The next long-termer was Stottlemyre. And good stuff doesn’t necessarily make it to the majors — what Hughes has that makes him different is command, and he straightened things out when Eiland got to town. Kennedy also has command but lesser stuff. Joba has the best stuff and his command is getting scary as well.
And lets not forget, if somehow the soxs and twins come to an agreement on players. Johan holds all the cards, he can nix the deal.
Becket/Johan/Dice-K.
Two of those three are formidable for the next five years (I excluded Schilling because he will probably retire next year). Dice-K is without a doubt overrated.
Perhaps it doesn’t shift the balance as much as we are all assuming.
If the Red Sox get Santana then I am doen with baseball and I never want to hear any Red Sox fan say anything about the Yankees buying players since Boston is doing this to get back at the Yanks, they do not need another starter, man i hate Boston more and more each year
Sometimes the litle things that are said speak to mindset better than the big things.
From NY Post:
“Despite the teams being unable to agree on the third player, a representative for the company that manufactures Yankee uniforms went as far as asking the team what number Santana preferred. The rep was told Santana would likely keep the No. 57 he wore with the Twins.”
good morning people. I still say Cash & Hank did the right thing
seriously Minny can go F—- themselves w/ that last requested trade !!!!
The funny thing is, I think everyone had it backwards. It seemed liked the Twins were just using the Yanks as leverage against Boston. I think Lowrie may have been a big part of the deal. That kid can hit.
Yanks should pull this thing off the table. I think the fan base is more than willing to go with Hughes in the rotation.
If Bill Smith thinks the Sox package is better, then good luck with that.
The reason I think MN is bluffing is because THEY would have to compete with Boston too. They’re essentially giving the league to Boston for three years and not getting enough to even compete in their own division. By the time MN’s plan pans out, it’ll be time to trade off whoo ever they get anyway. If Boston got Santana for the lame package they’re offering, of course they take it, and they’d laugh and laugh.
Boston isn’t bluffing, MN is.
For those waiting to pounce on the Yankees for “blowing it”, what do you want them to do?
Instead of whining, talk specifics.
Like Hmmm said, they ALREADY have the best offer on the table. Do you want them to sweeten it more?
How much more do you want to give up? Jackson, Tabata, Horne, Betances? All of them?
If they did, you would then whine Hank/Cashman, “gave up too much”.
The Yankees can’t improve on their offer if their offer is already better than Boston’s.
If the Twins take the Boston offer, there isn’t a damn thing they can do about it, short of blowing out their entire farm system for one guy. A practice I certainly wouldn’t advocate.
Its best to hold fire and wait to see if a deal actually takes place. If it does, then complain.
Right now, any objective Yankee fan has a hard time complaining if the Yankees walkaway from this one.
NY Times:
The Yankees’ pursuit of Johan Santana showed a flicker of life early Tuesday morning when the Minnesota Twins backed off their demand that the right-hander Ian Kennedy be added to the Yankees’ trade offer.
Andy Pettitte, 35, who accepted a standing offer for a one-year, $16 million deal, will give the Yankees more flexibility in their rotation.
But with the Yankees’ midnight deadline for a deal come and gone, the teams had still not reached an agreement on the third player to be added to the package of Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. If the sides cannot agree by Tuesday morning, the Yankees say they will back out of trade talks.
“If things don’t change drastically, it’ll probably be no,†the senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said.
———–
so is it on or is it off?
No matter what the Yankees do the media in general will take the opposite point. If they get him, it will be about the evil empire and how we buy our players. If we don’t get Johan it will be what a poor owner Hank is, and how he can’t get anything done. The Yankees are in a no win situation with the media.
ALso I think overall, fans would like to see Johan in pinstripes, but not at the cost of depleating our farm system. I think most fans would be content going into the season with Hughes and Melky here.
GB7 and Murphdog,
Those were some of the more touching posts I have ever read.
Best Wishs, and Good Luck to both of you.
if johan does or does not pitch for the yanks next year..
there should be any of you in here Booing him when he comes into Fenway and Shuts us down..
Cuz no on in here wants him.. go re read your posts..
none of you want him.. so im kind of wondering why this is such a big story to you.. why do you guys waste your time talking about johan..
you should be talking about that inferior bullpen you have.
and if hughes/joba/kennedy will be in the rotation you need to find a way to complete the bullpen..
kinda odd to say this, but i think alot of people in here are lying.. i think you want johan.. otherwise you wouldnt be discussing him
Sunny we won’t know for sure until he is traded somewhere or he signs an extenstion.
Lowrie has always hit, not much power, he won’t be playing much 2nd base after a short time, though. He’s about adept on defense in the infield is as Manny Ramirez is in the outfield away from Fenway.
SJ44- Agree.
Who knows which is the better package in the long run. At least we know the Yankees THINK their package is better, and most of their fans agree. If MN wants to give up Santana for a pitcher who had very serious cancer (not that I don’t have incredible respect for Lester’s batlle) and some prospects, that’s their problem.
I’ll be more than happy if I never hear about this deal again.
yanks why are you here reading our thoughts than. Go back to your red sox blog and gloat about what a great team you have.
i believe a deal is done when i see that it they have agreed to the framework of a trade. i don’t think the yankees should let alan horne or austin jackson stand in their way of getting this deal done. i don’t see their infatuation with keeping those guys when they’ve already included phil hughes. from that standpoint, they are making a mistake.
lester, lowrie, crisp, masterson? bill smith is going to bring that offer back to his fans and say “this is what he got for johan santana”? ouch.
Cashman makes me laugh. I read he thinks $2M a year for veteran lefthanded reliever Jeremy Affeldt is too steep when he gave that to Ron Villone to pitch less than a full season this year. Affeldt > Villone, Myers, or Henn. He’s not getting a good lefty reliever for a Mike Myers price.
Rivera, Vizcaino (re-signed), Farnsworth, Affeldt (2 years @ $2M/yr), Ron Mahay (ditto), and 2 from this group: Albaladejo, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Sanchez, Veras, Ramirez, Bruney, Rasner, Melancon, Wright et.al.
What if Cashman signed Affeldt for 2 years at $2M/yr. = $4M
and Doug Brocail for a year and $800K (he made $700K this year)? That’d be $2.8M for two lefties, an average of only $1.4M/lefty this year. If he signed Affeldt and Mahay for 2 years @ $2M/yr. each and trades Igawa, whatever cleared money might pay for 2008 Affeldt and Mahay i.e. Igawa has $16M -4 years @ $4M/yr.- remaining on his contract. If the Yanks trade him and say $4M -his taker pays only $3M/yr.- that and the money cleared letting go of Villojne pays for most of 2008 Affeldt and Mahay right there ($3M of $4M). Farnsworth’s $5.75M will be off the books after 2008, so $4M for 2008 Affeldt and Mahay is not an issue esp if one or both of the two kids vying for the final bullpen slots for the ‘08 pen pan out.
The bottom line is to get quality lefty relievers, you have to pay the price this offseason. Scott Linebrink’s 4-year deal no doubt put even bigger dollar signs in guys eyes and I don’t blame them esp. the lefties who are hard to come by in general. Forget Villone, Myers, Henn, or any other lefty in the Yanks farm system.
I think everyone understands the price tag on this one for us is too high, ESPN and WFAN last night agreed you can’t blame Hank & Cash on this one. We’re going a different direction to improve.
But with the Yankees’ midnight deadline for a deal come and gone, the teams had still not reached an agreement on the third player to be added to the package of Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. If the sides cannot agree by Tuesday morning, the Yankees say they will back out of trade talks.
first you give a deadline for monday night, then you wake up and see that boston has the inside track for johan..
now your saying if something doesnt happen by tuesday morning that your backing out of it?
wow.. $hit or get off the pot! your in or out… your staying or going..
once the yanks brass figures out what they want to do.. give minnesota a couple days to see if they even want to negotiate with these crazy people.
negotiations are all about silence, all about who holds the upper hand/all about patience..
coming for someone who does many negotiations..
its clear the twins have the upper hand.. as odd as it is to say.. the yanks keep wavering.. make a statement and stick with with!
Do you think Santana would go with the clean shave look or leave a mustache?
berra8 -
With that thinking, why don’t they just include every prospect that is deemed lesser than Hughes? As you say, they already include Hughes. Why not just include Horne and Jackson and every single bit of depth they have in their farm system?
Thanks VOIII. I just want to get down to Tampa and watch pitchers and catchers. I get treatment in Tampa, so I’ll schedule the treatments around that.If anybody’s down there and you see a guy with no hair….don’t sit next to him. One too many Coor’s-A-Colas may cause problems.
This has been stated already, but if you analyze objectively you realize that the Red Sox offer is not superior to the Yankees’ offer:
Centerpiece:
Hughes vs Lester – Advantage Hughes.
Other pieces:
Melky vs Coco – Advantage Melky. Similar stats, both have advantages and disadvantages. Melky is younger. Coco has better range. Melky has a better arm. The money is what pushes it in Melky’s favor.
Lowrie vs Gonzalez – Advantage Lowrie. This is closer than many people think. Gonzalez is an ELITE defender at SS, while Lowrie is better suited for 2B, but until Gonzo turns that bat around and shows he can consistently hit the edge goes to Lowrie.
I don’t think I’m being a Yankee homer with this analisys.
The good news is there is I don’t think Boston will shell out the money that Johan wants. In fact, now would be the time to make sure that Johan’s agent knows that if Johan holds out and does not extend until season’s end, the Yankees will make him the highest paid player in the deal in one years time.
we’re also talking degrees here – I think Hughes has the potential to be FAR better than Lester. Lowrie is marginally better than Gonz. Coco and Melky are even – but Melky’s cheaper.
Lester is never going to be a potential ace… hughes already is a potential ace…
smith needs to get smacked around a little and take off those smudged glasses.
Berra, as long as NYY keeps giving in to these ridiculous demands, Smith will keep shopping it to Boston and coming back for better/more players while Boston stays the same or lowers their offer. Smith has already done this at least four time, which for me is 3 times too many. When you ask for a price in a deal and get it, then you decide you want more…your word becomes worthless.
ellsbury signed boras to be his agent..
i bet minnysota comes back to the yanks offer simply because they do not like dealing with boras
My worry here is that the Yankees end up giving up as much talent for Dan Haren. Frankly I’d rather see our farmhands mature as Yankees, but Santana was definitely a good second option. For Haren, giving up the fun of seeing Hughes and Melky and whoever else rise through the ranks like Jeter, Posada et al is just not worth it.
why does it seem to me that AGAIN a team is taking less from Boston than they are requesting from the Yankees?
Hughes >= Buchholz (and the Redsox wont include him)
Melky >= Coco (if you consider age/contract)
Kennedy = Lester
A.Gonz
why does it seem to me that AGAIN a team is taking less from Boston than they are requesting from the Yankees?
Hughes >= Buchholz (and the Redsox wont include him)
Melky >= Coco (if you consider age/contract)
Kennedy = Lester
A.Gonz less than Lowrie
Horne = Masterson
so requesting BOTH Hughes and Kennedy is like requesting BOTH Buchholz and Lester, and the Twins are not holding out for that from the Sox.
I just am glad I am not a Twins fan when the GM tells them the centerpiece of the deal is Lester and Coco instead of Hughes and Melky.
It’s 10 F outside.
You don’t have any business telling me to ’stay cool’ =D
It’s also pure white with unplowed rows. not quite sure how I’m going to convince myself to go to class.
Morning, everyone. It’s for the best to not get too worked up about what is going on. Boston may be “in the lead” for Santana, but anything can happen. A team can sneak in from out of nowhere and make an offer that absolutely wows the Twins. The Twins can say, “oh, we like that deal better. Let’s do that!” The “in the lead” saying in trade negotiations has always bugged me just a bit. There is no leaderboard, like SJ44 said the other day. This isn’t a race and this isn’t a golf tournament. There are no clubhouse leaders no matter what happens.
Mike R., you beat me to it, but as you can tell I agree 100%
I think the Twins FO is some combination of crazy and stupid, for all the reasons expressed above.
I’m at peace with this right now – the NYY offered a fair deal, and that’s pretty much all you can do in the end. Even the Red Sox fans in my office think that the Red Sox offer is horrible.
But, I guess that’s baseball – I’m looking forward to Feb either way.
I doubt the Yankees include Hughes in a deal for Haren.
The reason? Both are RH, both have the same upside, and Hughes is younger.
The only reason Hughes was included in a Santana deal was because of the uniqueness and quality of Santana.
Haren isn’t as good a pitcher.
Would I go, Kennedy, Horne and a couple of low level minor leaguers for Harden (and convert him to a relief pitcher to save his shoulder) and Haren? Yes.
If that’s not enough, you walk away. Just as (apparently) the Yankees did with Santana.
What’s going to be interesting is if the Red Sox-Twins deal goes through, watching the contract negotiations between Santana and the Sox.
There is no way Santana is taking any discounts for a bunch of reasons. The Union pressure for one.
Are the Sox ready to go to 120-150 million for 6 for Santana?
That’s the number. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Breaking news, the New York Yankees are reportedly on the verge of retaining the services of one of the best young pitching prospects in the game, Phillip J. Hughes, as well as retaining the golden arm of Melky “spark plug” Cabrera to roam center field.
I’m not that upset. We may have just got Hughes off the table, which I firmly believe was the goal since Pettitte decided to come back.
If the Sox get Santana, yes, that sucks, but it’s not the end of the world and there’s nothing you can do if the Twins want to take a lesser package from someone else at this point. We could give them a package WITHOUT Hughes that would equal what Boston is offering.
Who knows, maybe Boston won’t be able to negotiate the extension, IF they get cheap with the Santana contract, and the deal (if it does in fact exist) will fall apart. Then let the Twins come back and accept IPK, Melky, and Gonzalez….
Maybe the deal fell apart because MN visited philhughes.net and saw the photo of Hughes looking like a Vanilla Ice c. 2003 clone…
bad news, or so it seems at least:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/12/04/sox_twins_may_be_close/
Is Ellsbury’s arm really that bad?
Not blaming anyone, but maybe what comes out of all this is better role definition between Cashman and ownership. The public role Hank played reportedly irritated the Twins. The public announcement of a deadline does not seem to have worked (if, indeed, it was a negotiating tactic). So, maybe in debriefing on this, Hank will step out of the micro role in public on particular deals, and step up to a more general role setting goals and strategies for the team, and holding Cashman to account for making them happen.
If so, that will be a good thing, and (if the worst happens)a little sweet to go with the bitter of watching Santana pitch for the Red Sox.
What about the concerns for a lefty flyball pitcher in Fenway?
How much do we think this will affect Santana’s numbers/effectiveness?
http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=285 Check out the twins fans comments on this post. They are not pleased. Almost all prefer the Yankee offer of Hughes, Melky, and player x.
SJ44 – I respect your opinions greatly, but I must say that I can’t agree with you saying “Haren isn’t as good a pitcher.”.
Good is a very subjective term so I can’t exactly argue with you, but I think most baseball people would disagree with you.
Is he worth hughes in a trade? Nope. Is he as good as Santana? Not even close. Is he great? He was last year, but on the whole I would also say no, but the is good.
If the Twins GM wants to settle for a lesser package from the Red Sux, then so be it. It’s his job to lose, not mine.
Especially with all the hype that the Twins fans have been hearing about Hughes, to pull him out and settle for a mediocre at best Lester, then he is in for a long season.
As for the Yankees walking away from the table, I commend them. I was of the kin that didnt mind getting or not getting Santana, with the offer that the Yankees made. Throwing in Hughes/Tabata/Jackson would totally tilt the deal in the favor of the Twins, and that would of upset me.
We need to take a stand now and show that we are content going into the season with our young guys, otherwise we will continue to be fleeced by the other GMs out there.
SJ44 – Sorry about that. I read it wrong. Please disregard previous statements.
I’ve heard more than one person call him a young Johnny Damon. Enough said.
yeah
yanks had a better offer, no doubt.. twins wanted more. and if the twins accept the 4 players of coco/lester/lowrie/masterson.. then the twins screwed up..
but at the same time.. if that is the case.. then the yanks front office has allowed johan to go to the sox over a 20 yr old kid.. (kennedy, who better be damn good now)
and, if the yanks think they can get HAREN – They wont.. he is cheaper and under contract for A couple Years..
He will take atelast hughes-melky-kennedy.. or some combination of young talent..
If we think we will get Bedard – haha. Not happening.. orioles wont trade him in division.. and bedard will cost more then johan.. probably another melky/hughes/kennedy/prospect sort of package..
now, we could go after sheets..
but if boston gave up that little for johan..
they could still be in on Sheets.. and we would have to give up the FARM to make DAMN SURE boston wouldnt get sheets
Remember.. Sabathia is closing in on a Extension!
yanks
December 4th, 2007 at 9:16 am
negotiations are all about silence, all about who holds the upper hand/all about patience..
coming for someone who does many negotiations..
its clear the twins have the upper hand.. as odd as it is to say.. the yanks keep wavering.. make a statement and stick with with!
thank you for your valuable insight yanks, especially since we now know how qualified you are to make such a statment since you told us you do many negotiations.
Mike R …. Ellsbury’s arm is average. The Damon comparison alludes to their offensive talents (though Ellsbury is faster than a young Damon).
We certainly didn’t blow it. It took a lot of smarts and guts to show that sort of restraint. Papa George would have sent them Joba already, and look where that style got us in the 80’s and early 90’s.
Blogs like this mess with my head in that they make me think that the majority of the Yankee fanbase doesn’t have the patience to let young players develop. It’s always “Win Win Win! It’s the Yankee way!” I sometimes need to talk to other people to remind myself it’s not so.
Haren? I’d like to have him. The biggest chip in that trade I’m willing to give is Ian Kennedy and, no, I’m not weakening our outfield by trading Melky to get him. They can have Kennedy, Horne, and whoever else if they want. If not, they can keep him. The same belief system that makes people think that we’re “one guy away” should make them think that our young guys will be better.
….and, no, I don’t think the Yankee/Santana talk is over either.
I’m sick and tired of the Twins desperate attempt to fleece the Yankees. When you reject an offer that includes Phil Hughes and a 23 year old gold-glove caliber centerfielder, you start to appear delusional.
This back-and-forth business would end so quickly if the Yankees played more to the competition and engaged in discussions for various other high-profile pitchers. Would it hurt for Hank to profess an interest in Kazmir or Bedard…just to balance things out a little bit and put an end to the Twins rape fantasy?
I love the take in the national media this morning blaming Hank for blowing the Santana deal and talking about what a disaster he is.
I chalk this up to Yankee bashing.
All they have done this offseason is:
Resign the best player in the game.
Resign all of their own free agents.
Let the other teams know that they will not be played against other teams.
I like what they are doing even if they have to go into the season with a starting staff as presently configured. they got a new bullpen arm today from the Nats and with a couple more moves I like this team for 2008 and I like having a flexible payroll in 2009 and beyond.
I like the job Hank as done so far and appreciate hearing directly from the owner again. What exactly are these people talking about that has been so disastrous. I just don’t understand how a rational person can spout such nonsense.
I don’t think Ellsbury’s arm is as weak as Damon’s. I’ve seen him a fair amount (mlb.com package)… besides he’s quite young and has yet to fill out.
All I’m saying is: there are better things to discuss on this board than the strength of the arm of a rookie CF who plays in the AL Central. Well, we’ll see on the last part of that… lol
Well, I fold. Coco Crisp and Jon Lester for Johan Santana? It’s official: teams simply expect more from the Yankees.
The Dude, where did you hear that the deal is coco crisp and jon lester for santana?
I won’t believe that until it is on espn.com and nyt.com
Yanks and Twins were still talking well beyond midnight, only breaking off talks so both could get some sleep.
Rosenthal as recently as this morning was reporting that the negotiations were still open on both sides.
right now, the yankees really don’t know what they would be trading in hughes or kennedy. by their demands, the twins are not acting like they consider hughes to be ace material. what if hughes has a phenomenal first half in 2008 ? if this happens than he would be tradeable for a veteran ace or he would be so close to an ace that the yankees might not want to trade him.
it’s not the end of the world if santana goes to the red sox at 25 million and a major loss of young talent. it would be a problem if it happened at the 2008 trading deadline because it’s not likely the yankees could react to it. if the red sox do the trade now , there’s time to see what the young pitchers are in the first half and also to react to the red sox getting santana and upgrading in other areas like first base and the bullpen.
in the regular season, 5 really good pitchers and a record setting offense can beat 2 aces and a good offense. if the red sox get santana now it’s all how the yankees counter.
it would be an interesting dynamic if the yankees were the young underdog chasing down , as one baseball executive put it, “the best team in the history of the frigging universe”. with their resources utilized in the right way , the yankees could do it.
I wanted Santana badly, but now it is time to set a precedence. The deadline is passed, time to take hughes out of the deal.. It will sting if it costs us this time – but it might help us out in future negotiations…
That being said – dont expect miracles from the kids in 2008, there are going to be growing pains…
And dont give up hope…
They Need an answer because they don’t want to get used to drive the price up our to allow the red sox to drive their price up. If they want to give up Crisp, Elsburry and Lester, fine, let them have him.
Time to offer up Kennedy, unless you like the prospects of facing Beckett, Santana, Dice-k. To me thatspells second place for the next five years.