Santana may be fading away for Yankees
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- December
- 4
The Johan Santana trade seems colder than hotter at this point. The Twins have acknowledged they’re not getting Ian Kennedy. But they’re holding out for better than what the Yankees are offering for the third player.
Why the Yankees need to have an answer on this now is a mystery. But if Hank Steinbrenner sticks to his deadline, it looks like it’s not getting done.
Brian Cashman said during our interview with him that a lot of trades are being discussed by the general managers, many that would come as a surprise. Pitching is the focus of most teams, particularly the Yankees.
It’s doubtful Baltimore would trade Erik Bedard within the division. But Danny Haren would come cheaper than Santana, presumably.
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on Tuesday, December 4th, 2007 at 2:18 am by Peter Abraham.
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So Santana was just a mirage, huh? Maybe it’ll happen next winter.
awesome im going to bed now
we need Santana for any price!
aa mel you beat me
Pete G.,
We’ll call it a 4-way tie.
Hey Pete when do you think, man maybe nothing is happening tonight i should get to bed, but then the minute your head hits the pillow, something happens out of no where and you missed the story of the week, maybe month, aybe year, is that your worst nightmare as a beat writer, do you only sleep when brian cashman goes back to his room
Santana for Igawa, straight up ! ( am I dreaming ?…ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ )
Pete,
Is Hank sticking to his deadline adamantly or is giving some leeway on it?
Pete, there are conflicting reports about the dealine being Monday or Tuesday evening, can you clarify that?
This Santana fiasco reminds me of the US/Russia Summit Meetings of the 60’s. Lots of hot air but no big balloon ride.
It’s laughable that people hear actually believe Hank and this front office.
After witnessing the turnaround with the all A-Rod circus, anything is possible.
The Santana Chronicles are hardly over.
Save Phil Hughes!
Haren is cheaper in cash, but not in prospects…I don’t get the talk about Haren at all. Unless they want Marquez, A-Gonzalez, White, DeSalvo and their such ilk along with a Melky Cabrera or something. If we barely wanted to give up Hughes for Santana, anyone on board for Haren in that? No way! IPK for Haren is the new Hughes for Santana, I guess…
Please stay in Minny!!!!!!!!!
Keep Hughes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here is a question for Yankee fans…
Lets pretend that the BoSox offer Ellsbury, Lester and Lowrie together tomorrow…
What is your counter offer?…Is there evn a counter offer, or do you just let him go to Boston?….
At minimum it’d cost Hughes/Melky/Horne and Jackson…That is minimum for sure, but it might even cost more like Hughes/Melky/Kennedy or Cano/Kennedy…
If that happens it is gonna be tough for the Yanks to keep Santana, honestly, that is a tough package to beat…
Thoughts?
Pete…just so that you know…YOU ROCK !…Thanks for the blog AND all of your hard work…When the Yankees win the WS in 2008, you deserve a ring ! Have a great night, Mr. Insomniac !
I would give Hughes/Melky/Horne,
OR Hughes/Horne/Jackson (pulling Melky)
OR Kennedy/Melky/Horne/Jackson (switching IPK for PH).
But I would not go Hughes/Melky/Horne/Jackson.
Sox gave the twins Lester’s medical records to review.
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2007/12/talks_turn_seri.html
No way dude Haren will cost more than santana. Oakland has no urgency to trade him and he is signed under a great contract for the next 3 years. Yankees should pass. Stick with santana, or go with what you got. pettitte’s return allows the yankees to stay passive here if the santana trade is a wash
as long as santana doesn’t wind up in boston, fine.
CB - respond to your post from the previous thread, if i’m the mariners, i wouldn’t deal hernandez, but they’re a different ballclub than the yankees. hernandez and ichiro are the only players putting butts in seats at safeco. santana puts the yankees over the top. in seattle, santana just makes the mariners good enough to MAYBE win the west.
but, if we’re talking in terms of pure value, i’d have done something like hernandez/clement/another prospect for santana if i was bavasi. clement isn’t going to pan out anyway, so might as well sell high.
If the Twins give Santana away for a package centered around Jon Lester, then the Yanks have nothing to do but to just build up the farm system and look to compete five years from now.
The Twins will take a package of Lester or Ellsbury plus some random dudes but not Melky + Hughes + one more random dude? They gotta be nuts if they do it.
Santana’s not going to Boston with what they have to offer. Twins just trying to drive up the price for us.
IF the Sox win the bid, what’s the final negotiated salary? I think that Johan knows that the Yankees would pay $3-5M more PER year.
the only way this development is significant is if the red sox decided to include lester along with ellsbury. if so, that is a very good offer, and the yankees should just walk away. it would take too much to beat that.
at this point, i don’t care. the twins want to pass on phil hughes, then let them.
looks like he’s heading to Boston, hey there was absolutely nothing the Yankees could have done about this, if it happens, it happens.
These counter offers we’re horrendous, they wanted the kitchen sink from us and instead asked Boston for a cup of water. Hey we move on….
It doesn’t make sense either. Boston’s the one that already has an ace. New York has no one (even though Wang is an excellent #2). They would only doom themselves and the rest of the AL for the next 5 seasons.
Hank told one of the NY papers that they would wait at least until tomorrow(or later today actually).
I say drop out of negotiations regardless. For the price the Twins are asking, it’s just not worth it. Best scenario for the Yanks is he stays with the Twins through next season and they pick him up as a FA. Then the big 3 develop another year - and you get the services of Santana. If he goes somewhere else in the meantime, so be it.
I agree with Hank, why get pushed into a bidding war with the BoSux? Focus on fielding the best team you can and let the chips fall where they may. Certainly don’t potentially mortgage your future because Boston may or may not make a move. If we were talking lesser talent then Hughes…then maybe you can play around with Boston and/or other suitors.
This is getting ridiculous. Why does every team think it’s ok for them to ask Yanks more than what they ask of other teams?
We offer Hughes + Melky: they don’t like it.
Sox offer Lester or Ellsbury: They’re all over the deal.
They seem to think that the yanks can somehow be swindled into offering more than any other team. Either that or they just somehow expect us to obligatory give up more for whatever reasons.
If they take Lester + Ellsbury over Hughes + Melky, ok, so be it. If they take either one of them, not both, then I say Twins are just in for it to rip us off.
We’ll keep the big 3 thank you very much.
Beckett was only 23 when he won the world series with the Marlins. Hughes, Joba, Kennedy are just a year or two from turning 23 - we got our own in house solutions for pitching.
Rotoworld
I’m guessing Nathan is going to Boston too
KAZMIR
Brandon,
There is no way that the Twins give them Nathan AS WELL as Santana for a package comparable to ours, which they wouldn’t even accept for Santana ALONE.
It wouldn’t cost Johan and Nathan to get them to do Lester and Ellsbury…It’d be substantially less than that…Maybe Juan Rincon (bill smith said he is healthy btw) or Glen Perkins…just guessing…
This has me very excited btw!…I would offer a sweetener as much as Nick Blackburn for a package of Ellsbury/Lester/Lowrie
So Ellsbury and Lester = Hughes/Kennedy/Melky or Hughes/Melky/Jackson/Horne…did I miss something??!!
Why the heck are the Twins making it easier for a team that has already won two World Series in this young milenium? HELLO! I’m hoping this is just a ploy by the BoSox and Twins to job over the Yankees.
!?!?!?!?
Ellsbury + Lester = Santana + More (”Sweetener”)
Melky + Hughes + Kennedy/Ajax = Santana only
!?!?!?!?
Looks like Twins failed Math 101
I agree Mr.GoodKat it’s just ridiculous but if this happens I vote we run the score up on the Twins everytime we see them
Matt,
Another thing - I asked this before - who was the last player to ranked by baseball america as the top pitching prospect to be traded in any sort of deal before he completed his first year in the majors?
In 2006 DiceK was BA’s top prospect. I don’t count him because of his age/ experience. Phil was the top pitcher.
Try to find out when the last time that kind of prospect was traded and then think about the yankees offer.
I hope this is over. Our offer is solid. If they don’t want it fine. We should have never offered Hughes in the first place. We should have offered Kennedy, Melky and two others and thats it. I’d rather take our chances that Santana becomes a FA and its just a bidding war instead of us losing talent.
I’m probably insane or just seriously sleep deprived, but I don’t care if Boston gets Santana. I want to keep Hughes, end of story.
Why is everyone surprised that the twins prefer Boston’s package?
The Twins think Ellsbury will be better than Melky. That’s reasonable.
Lester is comparable to Kennedy.
Lowrie fills a glaring hole at SS, and he is much better than Gonzalez.
And the last guy is Masterson, who is a nice pitching prospect.
Hughes is the best player of all, but the twins fill a lot more needs with Boston’s package. The twins are losing 3 starting pitchers this offseason - Santana, Garza, Silva. They need more than just one pitcher back in a trade for Santana. Boston gived them 2 pitchers, a SS, and a CF. That’s better than Hughes/Melky/Gonzalez
Twins’ GM obviously hates the Yankees.
In a dream world, I’d love to go after Kazmir. He pitches in the AL East, and even though he had a 13-9 record, he had 239 Strikeouts and an ERA of 3.48. And he’s 23. With the Yankees offense, he could have easily gotten 17 or so.
I think this is more posturing. These are just more rumors being leaked to get the yankees to yet again panic.
The front office has thought very hard about how far they’re willing to go with this. Hughes was difficult enough.
Boston didn’t seem that eager today to swoop in and collect Santana.
We’ll see. But today it looked more like they are playing things out to 1) drive up the price for the yankees or 2) see if they can get a cheap deal from the twins.
Twins don’t seem like they’re in the settling mood. Its too early in the off season for them to need to yet.
Looks like the Sox might get him for absolute crap.
Maybe the Yankees take a chance with Freddy Garcia?
CB-
I don’t have any intentions to insult Phil Hughes…From what I have heard about him in article he sounds great…I just really want Ellsbury…Ellsbury to me is substantially better than Melky…He fits the Twins situation to a “T”…Delmon was offense, now we need defense…I really can not speak for the Twins in this situation…Their scouting is ridiculous and if they want Lester, then so do I…No one is saying Lester>Hughes, let’s not forget that…
Oh and BTW, I don’t have inside info about the Red Sox offering Ells and Lester together, that was just crazy timing…
LOL if twins want more prospects to fill holes we’ll give them extra parts. Two of the big three + Melky? Ajax? Go away.
Ellsbury/ Lester/Lowrie is not crap.
That is a solid offer.
Then it gets down to how much the twins want to very good prospects vs. one great prospect and a good young centerfielder with a solid future but limited upside.
I don’t see the sox doing this yet.
Christ, we better not trade for Haren, particularly if the Sox actually get Santana. The A’s will drain us of prospects for a completely inferior pitcher than Santana, or the combined WARP of the players we would trade, all because his contract is cheaper than Santana’s will be for the years that Haren cannot apply for free agency. Bedard would be an excellent stopgap trade before next year’s free agency bonanza, but the Orioles would only trade him to a divisional rival for a boatload of prospects. Either Santana or no trade (particularly the latter).
Another thing to consider is the Twins will be taking a chance with Lester’s medical history. But they must like Ellsbury that much to take the chance.
Matt,
While true, in that the Twin’s scouting department is excellent, one must admit that the still lost their head scout and savant GM.
I completely agree with Eirias.
By the way is it me or is this the same thing that happened with the Gagne trade last year? Why is it that the Red Sox never have to pay as big of a price as we do for the same talent? I dont get it. I mean, I’m sure the Yanks are hated and maybe thats it but just because they havent won as many championships doesnt mean that the Sox havent been there towards the top every year. It seems like the Yanks and Sox are always the two top AL teams. They definately are the top AL East teams every year. My point is yeah they only started winning recently but its not like the Sox have been in cellar this whole time. They shouldnt get a discount. Especially when they’ve won twice in the last 4 years. I just dont get it.
I don’t think the Read Sox is really interested in Santana. It’s all their deception hanging around the trade to make sure hurting the yankees’ future. Please just keep Hughes and Kennedy!! We’ve got so many young talents. Do you guys remember the 2005 WSC White Sox? Do they have a ture ace? Mark Buehrle? I don’t think so, but they still win the ring!
The big 3 is just ready to sparkling. Just keep all of them!We will have chances to watch four 15-win pitchers on the roster next season!
I’m really not so sure that Haren is even possible right now. Oakland asked for Maybin AND Miller! I’d bet they’ll ask us for at least Chamberlain and one other great player - maybe Cano or Hughes? Call me crazy, but I don’t understand why Hank doesn’t tell MN that we’ll give them Hughes and Kennedy, take Melky out of the deal, and see if we can’t make something out of a bad situation. Losing Santana to Boston when our offer is in the ballpark seems like a tough pill to swallow.
I think the reporters of Boston are either creating trades of their own or Redsox & twins together are spreading rumors. In essence they are just testing Hank’s patience. As every baseball manager in the world knows how Stein’s react to such rumors especially if it is related to redsox. Also why would team like twins settle for a package that is less worth than what they are expecting from Yanks? or is there general consensus in the baseball world that no matter what Yankees should not win any sweepstakes.
This is my take on this one, its just twins are trying to posture and see if Yankees budge. If yankees walk out twins have no leverage /chance to get best deal from redsox or do you think theo is stupid enough to trade 3 A level players/prospects and give Santana 100+ and just tilt the balance little bit more in their favour as compared to today. Well these are my views/opinions as rational person
And not to be picky, but Terry Ryan is still with the Twins. He’s just an advisor to Smith now. I doubt any deal would go through without Ryan weighing in on it.
Matt,
Ellsbury is much better than melky.
I would not trade Santana myself without getting back the absolute best pitcher I could.
The twins scouting is very, very good.
But I still don’t think boston is giving you both guys after you’ve been asking and asking and they’ve said no for days.
Also - I couldn’t really find any recent instances when the top BA pitching prospect has been traded before he came up for a year..
That goes back to 1990.
Think about how rare this opportunity is for your club as well.
IMO if you pass up a chance to get phil hughes you will regret this for 15 years.
Tell me who the last light hitting, very fast centerfielder who dominated games was?
Terry Ryan is still a part of the Organization…
Oh and also, it has been a long long long long time since the Twins had all the positions filled adequately…It would be nice to see them all filled…and if Lowrie comes through, the Boston deal does that for us…I honestly think the Twins are trying to get the Yankees to include Cano, it he is included I seriously would consider letting the Yanks keep their three pitchers…Melky and Cano, to me that’s right on spot with what the BoSox are offering in Ells and Lester…
“Why is everyone surprised that the twins prefer Boston’s package?
The Twins think Ellsbury will be better than Melky. That’s reasonable.
Lester is comparable to Kennedy.
Lowrie fills a glaring hole at SS, and he is much better than Gonzalez.
And the last guy is Masterson, who is a nice pitching prospect.
Hughes is the best player of all, but the twins fill a lot more needs with Boston’s package. The twins are losing 3 starting pitchers this offseason - Santana, Garza, Silva. They need more than just one pitcher back in a trade for Santana. Boston gived them 2 pitchers, a SS, and a CF. That’s better than Hughes/Melky/Gonzalez”
Because when you are trading someone of Santana’s ability you need to do more than just fill holes. You need to get back a gem, a potential ace, and Hughes is the only guy in that package that fits that criteria.
I would not trade Cameron Maybin one on one for Dan Haren.
Miller may have the best young left arm in the majors. And the tigers paid him an insane signing bonus (6.6 million?) only a year before.
Billy Beane is seriously crazy.
I hope the tigers make that trade!
Yahoo is saying that the deal is Lester, Crisp, Masterson and Lowrie. But I don’t believe that it is probably the 3 plus Ellsbury
Let’s get Kazmir because he can beat Bosox.
From what I’ve heard about Lester, he throws absolute fire, but he just has control problems…To me that seems like a fixable problem, especially for the Twins who have a weird/awesome knack with pitchers…maybe Lester could be a very good pitcher…
CB-
you post some great stuff…Diminant pitcher > Outfielder …But the twins for some reason make their own rules…
Oh and about Boston…Obviously I am gonna say something like this, but…maybe the Sox see how steadfast the Twins are in their negotiations and so they just have put their best foot forward and offered the deal…That or the Twins could easily have offered a sweetener…
Time for Yanks to move on from the silly game the Twinkies are playing.
Captain-
Gosh I hope that’s not true…I don’t want COCO the circus monkey…I’m going to bed, I’ll prolly hit ya’ll up tomorrow sometime
Coco Crisp, Lester, and Lowrie over the Yankees offer? Are they f’ing serious? Whatever, goodnight.
oooooooooooh when the Twins play us this coming season it’s going to be Bill Bellichick type final scores….
Control problems are not usually fixable.
The Yankees are discussing internaly on Hughes.Cabrera, Horne and Gonzalez. The Twins came off their demands for Horne and Jackson. This package will get it done and poses no real thread to any youth the Yanks might need to plug in in 2008. The Yanks are seriously considering this package, as Boston is now back in the picture. Take this at your own leaisure, i could be 100 feet away from all the happenings or i could be staying right down the street with the rest of the media
I call BS and I still say NO to this
“From what I’ve heard about Lester, he throws absolute fire, but he just has control problems…To me that seems like a fixable problem, especially for the Twins who have a weird/awesome knack with pitchers…maybe Lester could be a very good pitcher…”
Lester throws about 90-92. That’s far from absolute fire.
Matt,
You’ve heard wrong about Lester. He doesn’t throw fire. He has a solid low 90’s fastball.
His career WHIP in the minors is 1.3. He’s averaged almost 4 BB/9 innings.
Not so good. This is his major problem - his command is not so good.
You better hope Ellsbury is the second coming of Ichiro. Oh sorry, ellsbury has no throwig arm…
the offer is lester/crisp/lowrie/masterson according to olney, so cut the ellsbury talk.
if boston gets santana for that package, good for them, i guess. maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.
someone want to tell me why Randy Levine is here? Isn’t he the contract man
a package of lester/ crisp/lowerie/ masterson is absolutely awful.
This is bogus. There is no way the twins are that dumb.
This is not going to happen. This is more rumors to try to get the yanees to throw horne into the deal.
I cant believe that there is universal consesus that ellsbury is streets ahead of melky.
- Ellsbury did great in just over 100abs and in the PS but he did also have a 740 OPS in over 200abs in AAA.
- Ellsbury is also a year older than Melky.
- Ellsbury has better range but Melky has the arm.
Yes, he has great speed but melky is being underrated. It isnt a stretch to see melky post 800 OPS next year, whilst its its also hard to believe ellsbury will post the 900 OPS he did in 100abs.
I know this has been done to death but melky is closer to ellsbury, in my opinion than lester is to hughes.
“maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.”
Hank said that they would still talk about it today. So if the Twins make a trade with Boston, I doubt it would have anything to do with Hank’s mouth.
@kasey “if boston gets santana for that package, good for them, i guess. maybe next time hank will learn to keep his mouth shut.”
I am sure Hank speaking cost us Santana. It had nothing to do with the prospects and the Twins being insane. You’re an idiot.
Eric,
Whether you can believe it or not yes there is near universal consensus in baseball that ellsbury is much better than melky.
It may be hype but that’s what people think.
In fact ellsbury posted a 740 OPS in 363 AAA abs. Shouldnt this hold some credence?
Johan Santana for Jon Lester, who has the stuff but hasn’t displayed the command to be an elite pitcher, a shortstop with a solid bat but and promising patience, but very limited fielding ability [Lowrie], and a one dimensional sinker ball specialist with a very shallow ceiling due to lack of secondary pitches [Masterson]
Wow.
Ellsbury is excellent. He has a swing tailored toward finding holes in the defense, similar to Jeter in that regard. That’s just a fantastic, natural ability. He’ll always have a high BABIP. But he too, has a limit to his value, because he’ll probably never hit for much power.
So, well done, Bill Smith. If you can take the package that doesn’t include Ellsbury, you have just made one of the worst trades in Baseball history. There’s really nothing the Yankees can do about this. If the Twins truly believe the Red Sox’s inclusion of Lester equals Kennedy [who has way better control and command than Lester] AND Jackson [who could be the Yankees’ CF by 2009] than he is simply being unreasonable, and hurting his franchise severely. Scarring it in fact. My God… if the Twins don’t get Ellsbury, this is positively nightmarish, a preposterously disastrous trade. So atrocious, it’s almost mind bending. I hate to be a jerk, but if this happens, I hope the Yankees run it up on the Twins when they play next season. When Lester is out of the game in the fourth inning after allowing three hits and four walks, and Masterson, the mop-up man, emerges from the bullpen, well, it’s going to be on… it’s going to be on… every time, cause we don’t play…
I can confirm that the Sox have not offered Lester and Ellsbury. I can also confirm that Jacoby Ellsbury created the big bang, when he laid the first fart in known time/space history
pre pete’s blog post earlier in the day:
“the twins are peeved at hank’s ultimatum…”
if you think there’s not an element of “F that loudmouth” involved in this twins/red sox stuff, you’re out of your mind.
hank making the deadline public weakened the yankees position in the negotiations. anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.
anyone who thinks boston isn’t serious about santana is foolish. theo and co. like winning and, with santana and beckett, then can keep doing it for a while.
lester’s a major-league-ready lefty. crisp fills a void in center. lowrie fills a void at short. masterson is a decent pitching prospect. the possibility exists that the twins actually prefer that offer to anything the yankees have laid out so far.
Also I bet Twins fans are gonna be PISSED if they get only Lester, Crisp, etc.
Understood CB, but it puzzles me that melky is considered such a ‘throw in’ whilst ellsbury is a centerpiece.
I cant argue that ellsbury is melky but the disparity isnt so great as its being made out.
i love this “run it up on the twins” stuff. this offense showed last year it’s feast or famine. if it’s a good day, they’ll put 12 runs on the board on anyone. if it’s a bad day, lester’s going to shut them down and embarrass them doing so.
that’s what happens when you rely on your offense. if they run into a slump, it doesn’t matter who’s out there.
kasey,
I doubt the Twins would accept a lesser offer(lester,crisp,etc) just because of Hank’s mouth. and what he said wasnt THAT bad in the first place.
The twins being “peeved” at hank steinbrenner has little to do with them deciding to take a boston package if they do.
That’s really not how multimillion dollar businesses are run.
Much of the twins near term future depends on the outcome of this trade.
They are moving into a publicaly funded stadium in 2010. Their owner is the 114th richest man in the U.S.
They cannot just blow this trade because of hank’s temper.
They wouldn’t spite themselves like that. Too much is at stake for them.
They are going back to boston to do what they’ve been doing the past few days - induce panic in the yankees so they do something stupid.
That’s why the twins are “peeved” - the yankees won’t give them what they want.
They should not include horne in the package.
Can we go to sleep or are these boston fools still talking ?
what hank said was 1) tampering 2) petulant. “everyone picks on the yankees and we’re tired of it! poor us! our offer is the best and if minnesota doesn’t take it tomorrow, we’re taking our ball and going home!” you say that stuff in private, maybe it helps. you say it in public, try to make the twins look bad, and it weakens your position. period.
throughout all of this, what did boston say? not a word. they just kept presenting the twins with packages, while still working on other offers. imagine that. if they did give the twins a deadline, no one knows of it but the red sox and twins, so there’s not egg on anyone’s face when the deadline isn’t met or the ultimatum turns out not to be so steadfast.
and, again, ellsbury’s not in the package. i don’t know why we’re debating his merits. he’s staying put, by all accounts.
Eric,
I can’t even tell you how much ink yankee fans have spent puzzling over the perceived value of Jacoby Ellsbury.
I’m not joking - its absurd. And everyone raises the same issues you have.
The scouts who actually see him however think very highly of him.
I personally think very highly of him. He serves a useful role. He’s got unique speed.
Supposedly in high school he ran a 4.27 40 yard dash.
If true that’s quite impressive. That was the time Deion Sanders ran at the NFL combines.
like it or not, hank’s mouth had a hand in these negotiations. if you think the twins front office enjoyed being upstaged and publicly bullied, i’m sorry. you’re incorrect.
was it the driving factor in the talks disintegrating? of course not. the twins want more than the yankees are willing to give.
but if you think hank’s big mouth made things any EASIER, you’re out of your mind.
CB
Are you talking about the Kazmir for Zambrano trade or the Pavano and Armas for Pedro trade?
You could draw 2 very conclusions from those examples.
“what hank said was 1) tampering 2) petulant. ”
True on both counts. But that’s still not going to make the twins make a decision that could cost them tens of millions of dollars.
That Olney update also only said what the Sox/Twins had discussed over the weekend - Lester/ Coco/ Lowrie/ Masterson.
Olney didn’t give an update of the package. Maybe Ellsbury is in?
Anyway, this is probably yet more rumors to make the yankees panic.
Hank doesn’t seem to be doing that. As long as he doesn’t I’m ok with what he’s done so far.
i hope all of you take great delight in the yankees “running it up” on the twins. (because, y’know, they can just flip the switch and do that, as we’ve seen. ask kenny rogers. and fausto carmona. or any of the indians, really.)
if boston lands santana, watching the offense “run it up” on teams during the regular season is going to be the highlight of the yankees season. 950 runs, another one-and-done october. if they make it that far.
hughes, kennedy and horne better be DAMN good.
bkight,
i don’t know what you’re referring to? which of my posts are you asking about?
and by the way, i’m not saying the yankees should have changed their offer. hughes/cabrera/b-level guy is fine. if that’s what they’re comfortable with, then make it your final offer, or tweak it one way or another in a way that you’re comfortable with.
but there was no need for the public announcement of a deadline.
i really hope hughes pans out. ditto kennedy and horne. there could be a day in the not-so-distant future when we’re looking back on these discussions with “sheffield-over-guerrero” type of regret.
Thats cool CB, and i can understand the attraction of his unique speed. I remember seeing pettitte pick him off in september yet ellsbury still made it to 2nd… (admittedly Giambi was at 1st)
But part of me thinks that ellsbury worshippers are the same people who claimed that Tony Womack “makes things happen” and that using logic if Pedroia hits .320 with his swing, ellsbury will be a career .370 hitter.
Anyhow, heres one guy who hopes this Johan thing falls over and the trinity stays in pinstripes until 27 and beyond.
I haven’t see anything that suggests anything has changed.
The twins have asked for medical records on Lester?
Not really a big deal. And quite honestly - I shocked they haven’t asked before.
Lester will have hundreds and hundreds of pages of medical reports that will be very complex and time consuming to go through.
The twins would need to do a battery of tests to clear him medically before accepting him in a trade. It could be a lengthy process.
The twins are jerking around again.
CB
you were asking about the last time a top pitching prospect was traded before his 1sr year in the bigs.
I think we all should send a note to Hank and say how we fans are so against stupid trades and would not make to the stadium or take Yes cable if they do any stupid trade? Just threat!!!!I know I am sounding emotional foolish but heck why not try something likes this and put some sense in owner of the sports franchise that we all love!!!!!Just few emotional thoughts
Quote from Kasey:
like it or not, hank’s mouth had a hand in these negotiations. if you think the twins front office enjoyed being upstaged and publicly bullied, i’m sorry. you’re incorrect.
So, the Twins are going to take a lesser package of players for Santana to punish Hank, and show them they shouldn’t be upstaged or publicly bullied? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Kinda cutting your nose off to spite your face.
bkight,
kazmir was an outstanding pitching prospect. But he was never the #1 prospect on BA’s list. He was behind Felix Hernandez (not that the mets are any less stupid for doing that). Same for pavano. Topped by Kerry Woods. Pavano was never the top pitching prospect according to BA.
If fill gets traded as far as I can tell this would be the first time its happenned in recent memory. Though I might be wrong about that. Just my eyeballing the lists:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html
Hey Pete — has Cashman gone to bed yet?
Those reports will to an oncologist and take a week to two weeks to go through. I can tell you right now, not many insurance companies would touch Lester for another year, and with good reason. Having been “cleared” of cancer for less than a year is a risk no GM should be making with the sort of talent being discussed. The second year is one thing, but, even then, any kind of trauma could retrigger the gene again. That much I do know. I was “clean” a year ago. I’m not now.
i’m just saying, for argument’s sake…
one could argue that cashman’s two biggest failures in new york have been his inability to deliver an ace to the pitching staff and his inability to put together a bullpen (although, that’s a pretty weak argument). but, they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07. if you want to look at torre’s “failures,” then you’d better put cashman under the same magnifying glass. if they don’t win the world series this year, should they show brian the door?
i, for one, couldn’t care less about cashman. i think he’s a decent GM, and he has certainly improved the farm system, but if you’re going to hold torre to a certain standard, why not go all out with it? if brian can’t deliver an improved team this year, a championship team, then cut him loose. find a young, brash GM who will get things going in the right direction, right?
brandon,
not what i said. i said hank’s actions and announcements weakened the yankees position in the negotiations.
GB7,
Sorry to hear about that. I hope things turn out for the best.
“they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07.”
Pedro they didn’t get becasue they didn’t have the prospects. Not even close. Same for Johnson.
Schilling was a ridiculous situation. On that one Arizona really did want to stick it to the yankees and hurt themselves by taking an awful Boston package.
I dont’ think the twins can afford to do that.
If it wasn’t for Cashman right now the yankees would be where they were with Pedro or Johnson - no shot becasuse they have no prospects.
Cashman was the first person since Stick to focus on player development. No one else was had that foresight.
Without him they’re in a position similar to the mets with a farm system like the Giants. Pitiful.
And if that had hapenned boston would be burying the yankees.
You dont’ think Omar is salivating at the idea of getting in on santana? He just can’t.
sorry to hear that GB7. think good thoughts.
i forgot to address fleas and the guitar thing. it’s a cool-looking guitar, and i wasn’t aware it had eight tuning presets or whatever, but if i’m going to spend 2 grand on a les paul, it’s going to be an old one.
but, i’d love to hear somebody play the thing. maybe it sounds great. it sure looks cool.
CB,
i was just making an argument for argument’s sake. for the most part, i was trying to skewer the idea that torre was responsible for the losses and should have been dismissed as unceremoniously as he was.
i’m fine with cashman. like i said, i couldn’t care less about the guy. he’s done a great job rebuilding the system, but he’s made some pretty poor moves, too. you take the good with the bad. he’s not a great GM in my opinion, but he’s not a terrible one, either, by any stretch of the imagination.
kasey,
I agree that everyone blaming torre was ridiculous. Being a baseball manager isn’t really rocket science, despite what everone likes to think. There’s too much chance involved. It’s nothing like football where you have a 300 page playbook and have set plays to call every down.
I know you’re just making an argument - I’m making a counter argument.
NEWSFLASH:
Not everyone in the world is enamored with Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera. I mean come on…MELKY CABRERA?
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/12/overnight_yankees_update.html
Somebody posted something similar. I just thought I’d post something that’s related to it.
People come off the ledge…NO TEAM IS GETTING SANTANA UNLESS THEY OVERPAY. The twins have made it clear they want Kennedy from the Yanks…They Want Elsbury and Lester from Boston.
Additionally, if you want Bedard, Haren or any other young good pitcher you will have to overpay…period. The Red Sox will not overpay.
The only reason they got schilling is bc the Diamondback GM wanted to stick it to George Steinbrenner and the Yankees for signing Boomer Wells after he had agreed to play for the Diamondbacks. He refused to deal with the yanks(said Cano and Wang sucked) and gave schilling to the Sox for a bucket of balls.
The GM of Arizona was later fired for his stupidity. As for Beckett, the Sox paid a fair price for him. The Yanks did not have the caliber of prospects.
Now the Twins want overpayment …neither the Sox nor the Yanks will take the bait
CB,
right on.
and for what it’s worth, like i said, i don’t think cashman and co. should have caved to the twins. i just think hank’s shooting his mouth off didn’t help.
if the sox get santana for a weak package, what can you do? sit back and watch them rack up the pennants, i guess, because santana-beckett is pretty tough to touch with that offense and papelbon closing out games. say what you will about dice-k, schilling and wakefield, but that’s two bona fide aces in one rotation, and it’s going to be tough to beat that for the next few years.
if the yankees are fine with that, and want to let the kids grow, see what shakes out, that’s fine by me. but don’t pretend to be a “contender” this year because, without an ace, you’re not.
and let me pose this question: if folks were loathe to part with hughes for santana, how’s everyone going to feel when the red sox get johan, the yankees panic, and hughes gets deal to oakland for haren? that a preferable situation for anyone? i thought not.
the yankees are in a pretty weak position. everyone knows they need an ace if they want to compete. with their offense, and pettitte and mo not getting any younger, they’re built to win now. and yet, with the kids in the rotation, they’re going to need a “growth period.”
figure out what you want and go after it. right now, you can’t win AND keep all of the kids. it just isn’t feasible.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 3:57 am
i’m just saying, for argument’s sake…
one could argue that cashman’s two biggest failures in new york have been his inability to deliver an ace to the pitching staff and his inability to put together a bullpen (although, that’s a pretty weak argument). but, they didn’t get pedro in ‘98, they didn’t get johnson in ‘01, they didn’t get schilling in ‘03 and, from the looks of it, they didn’t get santana in ‘07. if you want to look at torre’s “failures,” then you’d better put cashman under the same magnifying glass. if they don’t win the world series this year, should they show brian the door?
i, for one, couldn’t care less about cashman. i think he’s a decent GM, and he has certainly improved the farm system, but if you’re going to hold torre to a certain standard, why not go all out with it? if brian can’t deliver an improved team this year, a championship team, then cut him loose. find a young, brash GM who will get things going in the right direction, right?
____________________________________________________
Just so you’ll know. Cashman wasn’t the GM in Nov of ‘97 when Martinez was. Watson was the GM. Who did the Yankees have to trade to Seattle that was cheap and young and talented in ‘01 for Johnson.
I know your main love is complaining about anything, but, at least snack on some facts before the whinefest begins.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 4:05 am
sorry to hear that GB7. think good thoughts.
i forgot to address fleas and the guitar thing. it’s a cool-looking guitar, and i wasn’t aware it had eight tuning presets or whatever, but if i’m going to spend 2 grand on a les paul, it’s going to be an old one.
but, i’d love to hear somebody play the thing. maybe it sounds great. it sure looks cool.
_________________________________________________
Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming. I beat it once, I’ll do it again. I didn’t put in 3 tours in Vietnam and 20 and 30 years later the desert tours to go quietly into that goodnight.
E-Roc,
The source for that story seems to be the Sox. Who knows what’s going on at this point.
I think the sox are both serious in their interest but also wanting to get the yankees to overbid.
I mean really - all week they’ve refused to deal ellsbury and lester.
Suddenly it looks like the yankees are out and what do the sox do? Do they stick with their offer? Increase it a little?
No they capitualate to the twins after the main bidding partner has dropped out?
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
Either way - if that’s the package the sox can have him. I wouldn’t not trade Hughes and Kennedy together and that’s what the twins would want.
We have to throw in Horne and A-Jax now. We simply can’t let Boston get him for just Lester, Masterson, Crisp and Lowrie.
GB7,
like i said to CB, i was making the argument for argument’s sake to skewer the torre folks.
the yankees had no one to trade in ‘01. or ‘03, for that matter.
the offense went ice cold and wang proved is “worth” as an ace in october. that’s as much torre’s fault as johnson/schilling are cashman’s fault. so why does one still have a job?
that’s all i’m saying.
“Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming.”
right on. best to you, man.
kasey,
If this trade does go through for the sox I think its worse than what you said (I can’t believe I actuall wrote that…worse than kasye said…)
In addition to Beckett and Santana they have Buchholz. He has the chance if he stays healthy to be an ace. He is the real deal.
They don’t give him up in this deal, well its sort of wrong but what can you do.
I still won’t buy this boston angle until the deal is made.
I think boston would be happy to screw the yankees by making them over pay or to have santana stay with the twins.
kasey
December 4th, 2007 at 4:29 am
“Thanks, Kasey. I have no kick coming.”
right on. best to you, man.
___________________________________________________
No problem, Kasey. I get mouthy with anybody’s negitivity and with trolls. I don’t have time for it. I just want to see 15 more WS title so I can bookend the 15 I’ve been around for.
People relax…Boston will have to overpay…no one took Hank or his ridiculous deadline demand seriuosly…Even Steve Phillips was laughing…The twins and sox know the yanks are still in this
CB,
i think people should take the red sox seriously where santana is concerned. they came in 3rd in 06 and everyone in that front office went ape____. they spent a ton of money last winter to win, and i think they’ll keep spending. like they yankees, they’re pretty much printing money at this point.
if they can get santana on their terms, they’ll do it.
and it might be time to consider that maybe the rest of the MLB doesn’t think as highly of melky cabrera as yankees fans do. honestly, if you gave me the choice between crisp and melky in center, i’d have to think about it a while. if you gave me the choice between lester and hughes, i’d take hughes, but it wouldn’t be a landslide. and if you gave me a choice between lowrie and masterson and a b-level yankees prospect, i’d take the boston kids before you’d finished asking the question.
could just be that the twins like boston’s package better.
if so, watch out. it’s going to be an ugly few years.
“No problem, Kasey. I get mouthy with anybody’s negitivity and with trolls. I don’t have time for it. I just want to see 15 more WS title so I can bookend the 15 I’ve been around for.”
i’ve got no problem with it. i know i’m “negative guy” and i know people don’t dig it. it’s the people who say i’m not a “true” yankees fan and the people who build these ridiculous, roto-world trades who get to me.
i’m not stupid and i am a yankees fan. outside of that, any insult in response to my negativity is pretty much fair game.
Nobody is proved better than anybody until after a season is played. Anybody here remember Don Gullet? let alone Carl Pavano. Let the Bled Sox have Santana. If only that would shut their hypocritical mouths in that second rate city.
Kasey:
Enough with the doomsday scenario…you think the twins are gonna go to Boston with hat in hand and say “Well I guess the Yanks are out of it…I’ll make a bad deal with you”
No, No, No. If we have learned anything it is this. Santana never made a demand to the twins that they trade him before the season starts. The twins are ready to take Santana into the regular season…any team who gets Santana will overpay. period
Please…the Arod deal taught everyone (including the twins) that Hank is a blowhard and not to believe any nonsense coming out of his mouth.
I agree if the red sox can get this deal on their terms they’d do it.
Both ellsbury and lester don’t seem like their terms however. They seem like the twins terms.
With the yankees out the twins have less leverage. Boston ups its offer to a package that seems like its the one they’ve been refusing all along?
The one plus from this situation is that Cashman comes to the forefront now. Hank will have to pipe down
CB,
i don’t think the twins are demanding ellsbury and lester any more. i think they prefer crisp to cabrera and lowrie/masterson to any b-level yankees prospect.
i honestly think they prefer the red sox package with lester/crisp/kids.
completely my opinion, based solely upon reading about the latest wrinkle.
why will hank have to pipe down?
if he didn’t learn his lesson from crowing about the a-rod situation, he’s not going to learn from this idiocy.
when was the last time somebody named steinbrenner stepped up and said, “maybe i should tone it down a bit?”
doesn’t happen.
hank and hal are not good for the yankees. mark my words.
i’m going to get some sleep. 20 miles of I-5 is closed and i’ve got to drive eight hours tomorrow to get from portland to seattle (usually about a three-hour drive).
should be a treat. luckily, my cell phone loads pete’s blog.
i’ll say this again: everyone better hope the kids pan out because, if boston gets santana and hughes, horne and kennedy turn out to be just average, we’re going to be looking back on this move as the moment the red sox locked up a dynasty that rivals the late-90’s yankees.
Ugh, if the sux get Santana, it’s going to be another long year.
welcome to the dogfight between 2nd and 3rd place in the AL East boys and girls. Cashman has been reduced to the family pet while Hank puts his blinders on and screws the pooch.
If the Red Sox walk away with Johan Santana without giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz, this will be an EPIC Yankee failure remembered for decades to come.
15 games back in september seems about right. battling tooth and nail against the Rays in a half-filled Yankee Stadium as Garza embarrasses us while Santana throws up zero’s inning after inning for our most hated rival in meaningful games. Thanks Hank, Cash, Hal, and of course old senile George. Screw You.
Kasey:
Hank will pipe down for the winter meetings…believe I have no allusions that Hank will pipe down permanently. Don’t worry…The twins will not do the trade w/Boston unless Elsbury and Lester/Bucholz are in the deal, in my opinion.
The Yanks are still in this and the Twins know it.
East Side…I’m not in any way a Hank Steinbrenner fan. As far as I’m concerned, he needs to go back and play with his horses. He belongs in the stables. He fits in just like part of the horse, but, I see nothing wrong with what he said about this. He basically told Smith to stop screwing around and bargin like a man instead of a punk. As far as the “tampering charges”, it’s laughable at best. The JD Drew deal was about as blatant as it gets. This was no different than the tampering charges that Arizona pulled in July of ‘04 against George Steinbrenner involving Randy Johnson. I’ll stick Selig’s response in here.
http://www.nysun.com/article/141?page_no=4
Right now, the deal Steinbrenner wants to make is to bring Randy Johnson to the Yankees to shore up his tottering pitching staff, the one that even $183 million couldn’t fix.And if he has any hope of doing that, he’s going to need Bud Selig’s blessing.
Over the past week, Steinbrenner - who abhors, rightly, the very concept of the luxury tax Selig jammed down his throat in 2002, and even retained attorney David Boies to explore the possibility of suing MLB - has been overtly jockeying to worm his way into Bud’s good graces.
In fact, the kissy-fest has worked both ways. Two weeks ago, Steinbrenner gushed publicly about how much he would “love” to have Randy Johnson, a clear violation of baseball’s tampering rules if ever there was one. But there was Selig jumping to the Boss’s defense: “You know tampering when you see it… Believe me when I tell you, that is not tampering.”
Talk about hyperbole from Ant.
Santana isn’t going to the Red Sox. That kind of move and commitment goes against everything Theo and Co. have built over there in recent years.
Half-filled Yankee Stadium?
Um, no. This isn’t 1995. They will break their all-time attendance record again next season, especially since it is the final year at the old yard. Bank on it.
If, by chance, Santana does go to the Red Sox - so what?
The Yanks will hit Santana eventually just like they’ve hit Pedro, Schilling and Beckett. The more ABs they have against him, the more they’ll adjust.
Fenway isn’t exactly a left-hander’s paradise for a flyball pitcher whose homerun totals went up dramatically last season.
RSN might be the favorites again next season, but that doesn’t mean they’ll win. The games aren’t played on paper or the Yanks would’ve won a few more rings since 2000.
GreenBeret7
its not the deadline necessarily thats the problem its the public nature of it. He had an interview with a reporter from Newsday where he made a public spectacle of the “Deadline”.
They could have told Minny privately about the deadline…besides no one believes there is a deadline. If Minny gets a better offer from Boston they will go right back to the Yanks with it…my opinion is Smith has the support from Minny and the fans to keep Santana.
All the Minny fans I know are saying screw the Yanks and Soz if they don’t meet our demands…Santana is the best pitcher in baseball…he tips the scale in the AL East for the next 5 years…Santana will bring peace to the mid-east…yada…yada…yada
Giuseppe Franco..the hair commercial guy?
The Yankees will face a Massachusetts-bound Santana 5, maybe 6 times. With a starting rotation consisting of Beckett, Schilling, Santana, Dice-k and whoever else they want to trot out, even if we win all 6 of those games, i HIGHLY doubt that it will matter much in the standings. The rest of the league proved fairly inept towards the Red Sox starting pitching last year, aside from the occasional bad outing or two. Do you really feel the addition of Santana won’t just solidify an already rock solid rotation? This has bad news written all over it, whether or not you want to agree.
What about our guys? Don’t you think they will go through the growing pains almost ALL young pitchers go through? What happens when Hughes or Joba hit a wall somewhere in July and don’t figure out a way around it until September? To sit back in a few years and wonder why we couldn’t have gotten Johan Santana is going to be tough to do.
and P.S. 15 games back in late September. The Rays are coming to town. Is that a ticket you want to spend your lunch money on?
The latest rumored offer to the Twins is Lester, Lowrie, Crisp AND ELLSBURY.
http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/12/overnight_yankees_update.html
Has to be more of Smith’s BS. The Red Sox will do this, plus free up money to sign Rowand? Not likely. Smith has to sleep on this deal tonight, according to unnamed inside sources.
East Side, the Twins fans have been saying that for days. Unbelievable. They come to every Yankees site making their wildest of demands and adding if NYY doesn’t do this, “I’ll just take it to the Boston Red Sox and take their deal. The fans actually think thast they are making the deal.
Ant:
Your thought process is how deals like AJ Pierszynski for Liriano, Nathan and Bonser happen.
Teams panic and wind up in baseball history books
If the Yanks thought like you did; Kennedy would be with the Texas Rangers and the Yanks would be hoping Gagne would sign with a team that did not have protected draft picks. Yikes
the AJ Pierszynski trade was made out of desperation, and i don’t really think you can compare AJ Pierszynski to Johan Santana in terms of, well, anything. Don’t say that to Johan, his temper might get the best of him.
Anyway, Santana is a proven ace. An undisputed top of the rotation starter. A Multiple Cy-Young winner. A lefty. These are all qualities that help this trade become much more then just exchanging uniforms on a bunch of men. It can single handedly decide the fate of a team for the next few years.
Remember last year’s battle cry? You know the one, “Don’t worry….Reinforcements are coming!” Well unfortunately reinforcements aren’t coming this year. They are already here, and they haven’t exactly blown anyone away either, Including the Twins Front Office who passed over them for a package consisting of a Cancer survivor who wasn’t lights out at any time in his short major league career, Count Chocula, and two guys who’s names were unknown to ANYONE until this past Saturday.
Spin it however you want it, This is a terrible day for the Yankees. They can only pray that the “Holy Trinity” really do turn out to be aces, anything short would be quite the disappointment, no?
Panic is dealing ANY of our prospects for Dan Haren. Watch that happen too.
Ant:
Calm down…The Yanks will not overpay for any pitcher AND they are still in talks with Minny for Santana.
Didn’t the Arod situation teach you anything…If the Sox get Santana it will HURT.
Hank is out of his league. He needs to let Cashman run the team and just be Cash’s yes man, not the other way around.
I can’t imagine going through a season of little hope like I’ve done with some Yankees teams of yesteryear. Santana to the Sox will undoubtedly hurt in 2008 but what bums me out is how it will hurt for years to come.
remember folks are pitchers are GOOD…If they weren’t good why is Minny demanding both Hughes and Kennedy…You think Minny plans to rebuild? No, they are gonna put them both in the rotation, Melky in centerfield and then contend for Central division.
Minny is not stupid (see mention of above pierzynski trade) they want to trade Santana and still be able to contend
If the Sox get Santana, it’ll not be the end of the world. It’ll hurt, but it’s not that serious.
Well, Ant.
Here’s why the Yankee rotation will be better than last season.
The addition of Joba along with a full season of Hughes, Kennedy, and probably Horne at some point will be far superior to the assemblage of spare parts they trotted out to the mound in 2007.
Keep this in mind, the Yankees won 92 games with these seven rag tag pitchers combining for 36 starts (which calculates to 22% of the 162 regular season games played):
Chase Wright, Kei Igawa, Tyler Clippard, Darrell Rasner, Jeff Karstens, Matt DeSalvo, and Sean Henn.
Every one of these guys are nothing more than marginal talents and will likely never amount to anything in the big leagues.
Yet, again, this team managed to win 92 games and made RSN sweat bullets the final month of the season.
Don’t rail against the kids. I understand there is going to be some rough times and growing pains. I’m fine with that because it is the best way to build a stable of horses in the rotation for long term success.
Every great pitcher was once “unproven.” Unproven doesn’t mean they won’t be able to do a sufficient job. Joba was “unproven” until he took the ball in August and starting mowing hitters down. Listing inexperience as the primary reason not to give these high ceiling arms a chance to develop is lunacy.
Winning in 2008 is important. But winning in 2009 and beyond is even more important.
on the other hand if we trade Kennedy and Hughes we will still be fighting tooth and nail for the wild card even with Santana…unless he can pitch 2-3 times per week
That comment is questionable. Winning in 2008 is just as important as winning in 2009, 2010, 2011, or 2012. They all count the same and I’d actually prefer one next year.
Assuming the wild card even comes out of the AL East.
With Santana we would have a formidable rotation. Without Santana there are more question marks than exclamation points.
I love Joba. I liked what i saw from an injured Hughes. Kennedy showed guts. But Santana is, for lack of a better term, a once in a lifetime type of pitcher. Sure, he may decline or get injured. But you can’t possibly assume that any of the three Yankees young guns will be anywhere near Santana’s caliber. Until they’ve accrued a few years, no one will know. I would rather risk losing an Ace or two and knowing I’m getting a bona fide, tried-and-true Ace, then hanging onto the prized three and ending up with a pile of relievers with arm problems. Anything is possible with young guys, which is why the risk is TREMENDOUS.
well
2:25 a.m., from Buster Olney
• The Red Sox have emerged as the favorites to land Johan Santana. Boston and Minnesota continued to talk into early Tuesday morning, with the Twins even asking to see medical reports on Red Sox left-hander Jon Lester. Last week, the Sox offered Lester, outfielder Coco Crisp, minor league infielder Jed Lowrie and another minor league pitcher for Santana.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=winter_meetings
I think that other minor league pitcher is Masterson.
“The Twins and Red Sox have concluded trade talks for the night with a deal likely within reach, the Boston Globe reports.
The Globe says there are indications that the deal would be Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson for Johan Santana. ESPN’s Buster Olney also believes that’s the package. Crisp doesn’t seem like a great fit for a Twins club that figures to have little chance of contending next year, though as outstanding as he is defensively, he is being undervalued as a trade property. The Twins would also be getting a potential No. 2 starter in Lester, a possible No. 3 or a closer in Masterson and a likely starting second baseman in Lowrie. Phil Hughes is a better bet than all of them, but the Twins must not rate him as highly as many do.”
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=MLB&majteam=NYY
That is just plain stupid, why do we have to give up Phil Hughes, and they don’t need to give up Ellsbury
Wasn’t that the original deal that Minny rejected initially from Boston and demanded Elsbury/Bucholz?
This is hilarious…each day their is some report about who is in the lead and yet a deal never gets done.
I don’t buy that they ended talks with a deal in sight…if they ended talks they are going right back to the yankees to play some more pinball.
it’s laughable that all of last season they couldn’t unload Coco Crisp for anything worth while, and now all of a sudden they’re reeling in Johan Santana for Crisp and whoever else.
bphill–Because it’s the Yankees and they’re loved by few and hated by many.
god bless andy p. wonder if the fo knew about this prior to hanks verbiage, my guess is they did. with andy choosing to return the situation is a bit less panick driven anyway. my guess is andy sensed the need for his decision to be made, before they traded away the farm. it gives the yanks some more flexibility in dealing with the twinkies. would also beleive he knows just what kind of rotation the yanks could have with satan. there is the makings of a possible strong lineup with or without satan. satan would be nice though.
No, Chris. That’s not at all what I meant.
In other words, I’d rather take a chance with these kids for 2008 in order to develop and build a championship caliber rotation for the next 5-6 years.
Building a rotation geared for long term success is more important than going for broke and mortgaging the future to win in 2008.
That is exactly what Cashman and Co. is doing and I believe it’s the right strategy.
So do the vast majority of Yankee fans.
The fact that the Twins are valuing someone like Ellsbury at an equal or higher level than Phil Hughes really makes me have no interest in trading with them. No reason to get bent over because Smith is an idiot.
Does anybody know anything about this Albaladejo kid the Yanks just traded Clippard for? All I heard was he was a reliever with only 14 innings of major league experience.
Somethings are just not ment to be. However this reminds me of alot of the deals lately, the Yankees get held over a barrel and the Sawx give up garbage for real talent i.e. Schilling, Gagne, and now Santana. If this deal is real they will still have to sign him.
Jim PA - He’s a big Joba-size guy, decent K rates and good BB/9 numbers in the minors. He’s been in the minors for a good six years now but he’s only 25, drafted out of high school by the Pirates. I like this trade - grab a young arm with a bit of a track record and see what sticks.
Yankees are damned if they do, damned if they don’t with the media right now.
If Yankees get Santana, they’ve given up too many kids & threw a ton of money at another superstar. Hank is considered too impulsive and wants immediate gratification.
YET, if the Red Sox get him, the Yankees are screwed for the next 10 years, Boston’s FO is considered patient, smart & the most brillant human beings ever created. And giving up young talent doesn’t seem like a negative for whatever reason. (But if the Yanks trade a 25yr old for someone 26 or above, it’s the same old Yankees getting older).
For sure Kevin..
I still think this is more bs & posturing. Don’t forget that it was all over the news yesterday that the Sox were never really in the deal to begin with, thereby leaving the Twins with a lot less leverage in their dealings with the Yanks. By asking for medical records we’re supposed to believe this is close & that we’ll panic prompting Hank to overreact & raid the farm. I pray this doesn’t happen. I strongly believe that this is a deal we will look on as one we’re glad we never made.
Ant,
Please. Most people here and YANKEE FANS who will support the team no matter what the growing pains are. We’ve known for two years now what the plan was and, trust me, this is never going to be a Marlins-style youth movement. There aren’t many youth movements out there which include paying Alex Rodriguez a zillion dollars for ten years. We will be fighting in the end, no matter what.
Besides, who doesn’t have a soft spot for those 1991 Chuck Cary Yankees?
We’ll be fine. If the Sox get Santana and win the Series again (and that’s a big IF, even with Santana, since there’s still 29 other teams out there), that’s OK. I’m counting on our talent to win us another five series later. Why don’t we gather again in the year 2100 and see who’s won more championships? Let me answer in advance:
THE NEW YORK YANKEES.
From MLBTrade Rumors .com
Red Sox Making Progress On Johan Santana
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 2:04am: Tim Brown checks in. He confirms the Twins are checking Lester’s medical records. He says the current deal on the table is Lester, Crisp, Masterson, and a minor leaguer. A Red Sox official was said to be “cautiously optimistic.” If the current scenario is accurate, perhaps the Twins have finally bent on their demand for both Lester and Ellsbury.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:57am: Rosenthal notes that the Sox have roared back into the Santana derby, but says that as midnight passed the Yankees were still talking to the Twins. Hmmm, maybe midnight eastern time because I think Cashman went to bed already.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:25am: Looks like things with the Red Sox are moving along - the Red Sox have given the Twins Lester’s medical records to review.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:15am: Unconfirmed report from the Boston Globe says the Red Sox were looking at Santana’s medical records, which could imply an agreement. Or maybe they just wanted to check out his medical records.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 1:06am: Hank Steinbrenner expressed doubt that his team would get a Santana team done when talking to Kat O’Brien. However, she spoke to him at 11:45pm CST on Monday, and we had two updates since then. Anyway, discussions are not yet closed off.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:49am: Bleeding over into Tuesday…Stark has an update that pretty much echoes Heyman.
UPDATE, 12-4-07 at 12:38am: SI.com’s Jon Heyman has the goods. The Twins wanted a package of Hughes, Cabrera, Horne, and Jackson from the Yankees and they balked. They’ve asked the Red Sox to create a new proposal with Lester in it. Sounds like the Red Sox have the lead at the moment. Heyman thinks the Twins will make a decision soon.
UPDATE, 12-3-07 at 11:09pm: Yahoo’s Tim Brown talked to a Boston official who believes the Yankees are “very close” to completing a Santana trade. However a source of mine just indicated that the meeting ended in a standoff because the Twins continue to demand Ian Kennedy in the deal.
Didn’t know Crisp and Lester were better than Melky and Hughes. The problem is now, lets hope the NYY don’t waste good prospects on a Haren trade, I don’t care how cheap he is thru the next three yeras.
Not even close in skill or stature to Johan.
I say go with what they got for ‘08… Maybe Johan or CC will be free agents next year, along with Big Tex.
If the Twins are willing to take Crisp, Lester, and Masterson over Hughes, Melky, and another, then let the Sox have Santana.
This whole situation has passed on into absurdity.
I gotta say, I’m with Hank on this. Enough dicking around. How can anyone take the Twins seriously when they are considering taking less from the Sox than from the Yankees.
It’s a business, not a knitting bee and ogres abound. You do business with them if it improves your team. Period. The Twins are not