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Somewhere in this ridiculous hotel, Theo Epstein must be laughing hysterically

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 04, 2007 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

If Boston gets Johan Santana for Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie, that is a steal.

Keep in mind that Crisp is owed $10 million (serious money for the tightwad Twins) and isn’t all that good. Lester is a solid No. 3 starter perhaps but does not have near the upside of Phil Hughes. Masterson is a big guy who had only 115 strikeouts in 153 minor-league innings last season. Lowrie is a 6-foot infielder who just hit .163 in the Arizona Fall League but is considered a good prospect.

Boston has no use for Crisp whatsoever and little use for Lowrie. Lester is a loss but Clay Buchholz is better.

Until we learn who the third player is the Twins wanted from the Yankees, it’s impossible to evaluate whether Brian Cashman should have made a move.

But remember this: Cashman was ripped in many quarters when the Red Sox landed Eric Gagne in July and he did nothing. How did that work out? Santana is terrific but none of this stuff is automatic.

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421 Responses to “Somewhere in this ridiculous hotel, Theo Epstein must be laughing hysterically”

  1. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 10:26 am

    it’s a screw job by Bill Smith and I doubt anyone hires Bill after this deal blows up in his face

  2. mel December 4th, 2007 at 10:26 am

    Theo will stop laughing when the negotions begin. They’ll have to dig up the money they have buried in the Green Monster.

  3. Rebecca--Optimist Prime December 4th, 2007 at 10:27 am

    If the Red Sox get Santana, I will be laughing manically.

  4. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 10:28 am

    Somwhere in this ridiculous hotel, Theo Epstein must be laughing hysterically

    Of course a Red Sox fan would think such ridiculousness.

  5. saucy December 4th, 2007 at 10:28 am

    i haven’t been able to keep up with all of this, but i thought the offer (yesterday?) included bellsbury. So the fact that the yankee deadline is over means the Sox can lessen their offer? i don’t get it.

  6. Count of Montefusco December 4th, 2007 at 10:29 am

    Please don’t buckle, Cash!

    So excited about the Big Three. I’m not buying into the notion that they can’t win it all with these kids. Granted they are rookies, but each of them has exhibited exceptional poise (gnats excepted) and Kennedy especially seems mature beyond his years.

    And please, PLEASE, stop penciling in the Sox as inevitable champs should they land Santana. That’s just not the way it works in baseball — there are WAY too many variables to consider.

  7. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 10:30 am

    If the Red Sox land Santana for that package when they were asking for Ian Kennedy plus Hughes plus Melky then it’s obvious they never wanted to trade Santana to the Yankees in the first place.

  8. ORORO December 4th, 2007 at 10:30 am

    Keep the kids. Hughes/IPK/Joba will deliver.

  9. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am

    oh oh here come the Angels in the Santana bidding

  10. Chet December 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am

    This is the Twins double-dealing with the Yankees. They expect so much more from us than from other teams. As much as Hank S. talks he is dead-on regarding how the Yankees have been used by other teams for more than a decade. That has to stop. Hughes and Melky plus $20+mm cash-money for 7 years is a bad deal for the Yankees. Including another top-line propect is the Yankees getting punked. I would pass and move to other options.

  11. steeeen December 4th, 2007 at 10:31 am

    I know this mgiht sound weird, but this has a reverse Arod feel to me, I feel like the Redsox will get Santana, the Yankees will stay firm, keep our prospects, and we will be the team to turn the tide, even though we lose out on the great player.

  12. tip December 4th, 2007 at 10:32 am

    since when are john lester and coco crisp better than phil hughes and melky? it seems like the yankees are the only team the twins are interested in making pay

  13. TJ December 4th, 2007 at 10:33 am

    No, its just that Minny is pissed at hank, I bet if he had n ot made a deadline public then they would have taken the Yankees deal. I am really tired of this, Santana should just go back to Minnesota and get ready fro Free Agency next year.

  14. skisan December 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am

    If Cash/Hank can hold tight, they will have the last laugh when, in 2011-2013, Phil if turning in Cy Young seasons and they are paying Johan $20 mil per for 8-10 wins.

  15. mel December 4th, 2007 at 10:35 am

    skisan,

    Did you just say 2011-2013? My goodness, where has the time gone?

  16. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 am

    skisan,

    that’s 5 years from now. don’t you want to have a chance at a title some time in the next five years?

  17. Ben December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 am

    I’m glad peter brought up the gagne story. who’s laughing here? cashman is the man.

  18. rbj December 4th, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Definitely the Twins trying to shaft the Yankees if the report is true. Melky + IPK + second tier guy is better than the RS package. Melky + Hughes +? much better. Demanding Melky + Hughes + IPK (plus then the $100+ mil contract for Santana) is ridiculous.

  19. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am

    any insite on the story from your guys point of view?

  20. mel December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am

    I don’t think that Santana will be quite the bust that Gagne was. But I do think that YS would be a friendlier park than Fenway.

  21. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am

    A Kennedy led package isn’t as good simply because of Lowrie. I don’t love the guy, but he is a valuable IF bat for a team that desperately needs one.

  22. YankeeDudel December 4th, 2007 at 10:39 am

    It’s amazing to me that teams will take the worse deal just to stick it to the Yankees. This happenned in in 2003 when the D-Backs traded him for 4 worthless prospects. Even the Twins fans know that the Yankee offer is better.

    The Sox on paper will be heavily favored – but that’s good. When was the last time the pre-season favorite won the whole thing?

  23. TurnTwo December 4th, 2007 at 10:40 am

    I agree, Pete. If Theo pulls this off, it is an absolute STEAL. Johan replaces Lester, and is automatically a top of the rotation guy… they have Ellsbury to play CF next year anyway… and both of the other prospects arent even on the Saux radar for the MLB squad next year.

  24. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am

    gotwins,

    my gut feeling is that nothing will happen with the red sox right now, but i don’t say that with very much conviction. the red sox offer of lester, crisp, lowrie, masterson is clearly inferior to the yankees offer (and i think most red sox fans would even agree). not that it is not respectable, but it should not be enough to land santana.

    i think bill smith has played this correctly, and that the yankees have really botched the negotiations while the red sox have simply held the same offers out there and been declared the frontrunners on three separate occassions.

    on the other hand, if bill smith takes the red sox offer, i would say that he erred in a monumental way, getting only those four players for johan santana while passing on phil hughes.

  25. ZO December 4th, 2007 at 10:41 am

    Ill be laughing when the sox can trade for santana and cant work out a contract with him. or if they do ill be laughing when beckett wants a huge extension now.

    i still dont think santana will agree to a deal/contract with the sox. i think hes to interested in knowing what the yankees are willing to offer him salary wise.

  26. TurnTwo December 4th, 2007 at 10:42 am

    I just dont understand how the Twins could give Johan to the Saux in a deal without getting Bucholtz OR Ellsbury back… but I guess its a very real possibility.

  27. abe December 4th, 2007 at 10:42 am

    I hope that Twins keep Santana. Even after 2008 season. I’m a Yankees fan, but I really think someone of his caliber shouldn’t move, especially in this age of revenue sharing. If Santana does become FA, then I like our chances of landing him, though.

    If the RS get Santana with Crisp and Lester, something is wrong. Yankees should call for investigation. As said on this board many times, IPK+Cabrera is much better.

    I think Pete is right. Twins will wait a bit more and then they probably will end up accepting Yankees offer.

  28. stewman23 December 4th, 2007 at 10:42 am

    TJ, somehow I don’t think it’s quite that personal…and I think the Yankees will be better for not having given into the Twins demands…also, as much as every writer out there is floating rumors of this trade going down with the Red Sox getting Santana, I still don’t quite believe it at all

  29. Martini6196 December 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    I don’t believe any of the rumors that the Sox are close to signing Santana either. The Yankees package is clearly better.

  30. MP December 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am

    “But remember this: Cashman was ripped in many quarters when the Red Sox landed Eric Gagne in July and he did nothing. How did that work out?”

    They won the World Series.

  31. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am

    berra8

    i agree with you on that…
    from a twins fans point of view. if the coco/lester/lowrie/masterson trade does go down. it will be a tough trade to take… cant say any twins fan will be happy about this one

  32. marc December 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am

    “Spite. I’m sorry you can’t get a refund based on spite.”
    This is turning into a Seinfeld episode.

  33. marc December 4th, 2007 at 10:45 am

    MP
    In SPITE of Gagne.

  34. J-Dawg December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    Just time to let everything play out and hope for the best. Getting Santana alone doesn’t cinch a World Series for anyone, you still have to play the games. It does increase a team’s chances of winning it all, but anything can happen and I mean anything.

    Reportedly the Royals have signed OF Jose Guillen to a three-year deal. It’s on ESPN, so take it for what it is worth. :)

  35. Bob December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    If we all can see how laghable that Red Sox offer is don’t you think Cashman can too?

    Maybe he knows Minn will never accept that deal is gonna just sit back and wait for them to come crawling back?

  36. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 10:47 am

    i hope alan horne is worth all this.

  37. mel December 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    MP,

    Yes, they won the WS, inspite of Gagne’s efforts to sabatoge their chances in the regular season. Gagne was hardly placed in important situations after his implosion.

    Winning the World Series doesn’t excuse that trade. It looked good at the time, but in hindsight I’m sure it’s one that Theo wished he hadn’t done. Definitely a blemish on his resume.

  38. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    So, what are your guys thoughts if the Sox get Johan?

    Think the yanks will give up the prospects to get Haren?

    or hold onto the kids

  39. dale baker December 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    i was all for trading hughes for santana but for Haren? no way!
    He’s good but now that pettite is coming back id just let it roll with the kids pettite and wang.

    I wouldnt be shocked if Hughes has a better season that Haren in 08, and he might be the guy to open the new stadium in april 09.

  40. Paul December 4th, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Perhaps Hank was unhappy that Minnesota and/or the Sox were leaking rumors of the Sox offer and saying that the Yankees had to up their already superior offer to match. What Hank did was say “call you”. Good for him!

  41. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    “Until we learn who the third player is the Twins wanted from the Yankees, it’s impossible to evaluate whether Brian Cashman should have made a move.”

    If the reports that Minn never backed off of IPK (being that third player), then I’d say Cash did the right thing, 100%.

  42. Fleas December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    If Horne was keeping the deal apart, you Have to make it happen.
    If the RedSox get Santana… smile all you want about keeping hughes and melky..

    This RedSox team with Santana will be unstoppable. Mark my words. So let’s hope the deal falls apart.

  43. chazz1 December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    The young inexperienced Hank is getting a lesson in hardball. He will come back with more before the end of the day, thats Theo’s goal.

  44. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    In a multi party negotiation, the longer it drags on (or if it suddenly accelerates), the more likely it is that the parties can lose sight of the original calculations and needs that led them into negotiation in the first place. The the negotiations become about what’s going on in the room instead of the needs to be addressed outside the room. Personalities leak in, irrelevant, artificial factors pop up and the goals on all sides become foggy, turning it into an ego-driven bidding war instead of a sound business decision. The Yanks have to remain centered and remember the parameters they agreed on before they got into this.

    Above all else, in this situation, the coolest heads prevail. Based on the reports, Boston seems to be handling the situation better so far, much quieter, although Cashmoney is very stealthy.

  45. Nolan December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    Gagne and Santana are so completely different it makes no sense to compare them. Santana will be one of the best pitchers, if not THE best, for the next couple years and from very good to above average after that. Boston getting him is bad news for the Yankees.

  46. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    These are all semantics and Pete is just folding into the media trend. NTC NTC NTC.

  47. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:49 am

    Can we get something straight. No one, here or anywhere, is advocating including Hughes for Haren. It doesn’t need to be said.

  48. marc December 4th, 2007 at 10:50 am

    Don;t you think Santana knows what the Yanks will pay?
    The only way he’ll know the sox offer is after the trade,then within 72 hours he’ll be back on the street.

    If the sox even pull the trigger. They know beckett will be asking santana $$$.

  49. .....YO..... December 4th, 2007 at 10:50 am

    Suck

    That was a steal.

  50. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    I don’t think Santana is going anywhere.

  51. Taylor December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    The Twins would never make that deal. Anyways, does Bobcat still post or did Peter get rid of him?

  52. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    “Until we learn who the third player is the Twins wanted from the Yankees, it’s impossible to evaluate whether Brian Cashman should have made a move.”

    I would also add that if Phil Hughes does in fact stay in NY and wins some Cy Youngs, no-one will question whether Cash and Stein made the right move/s here. I really believe with Andy coming back, Cash was able to convince Hank to hold onto Huhges. No Andy set Stein into panic mode a bit, Andy returns and restores some piece of mind that lets logic come back into play.

    There is no reason to include Hughes in that deal if the reports of what they’re willing to take from Boston are accurate.

  53. migames December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    i hope the twins arent doing this deal to spite hank. It would make no sense whatsoever if that were true. If the twins are doing this to show up hank, smith should be fired. I think the pieces havent all fallen into place and something must be up.

  54. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    “But remember this: Cashman was ripped in many quarters when the Red Sox landed Eric Gagne in July and he did nothing. How “did that work out?”

    They won the World Series.”

    Sorry, the question should be: and what role did Gagne play in all that? Answer: he was the Red Sox handicap. He sure didn’t help.

  55. Buddy Biancalana December 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

    I don’t think the Twins want Lester, asking for his medical records is BS, the Twins would be nuts not to at least take Ellsbury with the other 3 if they make this deal.

    If they trade Johan to either team, it’s not happening now, unless the Yanks fold on IPK.

  56. Bryan December 4th, 2007 at 10:52 am

    Pete,

    I would recommend you read the SWB blog as Chad Jennings whom you recommend clearly has a different opinion of the Red Sox players as do quite a few others from what I have read at MLB Trade Rumors. I’ll quote Chad:

    RHP Jon Lester
    Do not underestimate the value of this guy. He’s in the same league as Ian Kennedy, and you can very easily argue that he’s better. Just two years ago, Lester was considered a brighter Red Sox prospect than Jonathan Papelbon. He was more or less on par with Phil Hughes, with two of the four writers in the 2006 Prospect Handbook ranking Lester ahead of Hughes. The other two, obviously, had Hughes higher. Now 23 years old, Lester pitched well this season after coming back from cancer and profiles as a potential front-of-the-rotation starter. He is a very, very good pitching prospect.

    Comparable Yankees prospect: Lester is probably somewhere between Hughes and Kennedy. It would certainly take one of those two to match this level of pitching prospect. My guess is that Hughes would have to be considered an upgrade, but Lester vs. Kennedy would be more a matter of personal preference. To be honest, I would prefer Lester.

    CF Coco Crisp
    Obviously being included to replace Torii Hunter as the Twins center fielder, Crisp is extremely expendable in Boston because of Jacoby Ellsbury. Crisp isn’t fancy, but he isn’t terrible either. He has good speed and he’s always been a solid — but not spectacular — hitter, which frankly isn’t a huge issue for the Twins now that they’ve added Delmon Young’s bat to the lineup. Crisp can hit at the top of the lineup as a significant upgrade over whoever is in that spot right now. Jason Tyner?

    Comparable Yankees prospect: The closest the Yankees come, obviously, is Melky Cabrera. Crisp has a higher career batting average and slugging percentage with significanly more stolen bases, but Cabrera is five years younger. This year the two played in roughly the same number of games and had similar stats: Crisp scored more runs, stole more bases and had a better on-base percentage; Cabrera hit two more home runs and hit for a slightly better average. Personally, I think Crisp is the better of the two players, but you can make a case the other way.

    SS Jed Lowrie
    Outstanding this season, Lowrie hit for average with more than a little pop in Double-A and Triple-A this season. At Double-A, where he spent most of the year, he had more walks than strikeouts while also hitting 31 doubles in 93 games. Defense is, by accounts I’ve read — I saw him but don’t remember — at least serviceable. Especially if he’s used primarily at second base rather than shortstop. He’s 23 years old, a former first-round pick and he plays a position where the Twins are pretty thin after trading Jason Bartlett.

    Comparable Yankees prospect: The Yankees don’t really have an infielder similar to Lowrie, but Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata are similar-level prospects. Baseball Prospectus ranked Lowrie as a four-star prospect, same as both Jackson and Tabata. Personally, I’d put Jackson and Tabata ahead of Lowrie, but the Twins might prefer an infielder, especially with Delmon Young and Jason Kubel already in the outfield. Either way, it would take Tabata or Jackson to match Lowrie as a third part of this deal.
    Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera, Austin Jackson and Humberto Sanchez would be a pretty similar offer. Whether it would be better than the Red Sox package would almost certainly depend on the personal preference of the Twims.

    Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jose Tabata and Alan Horne would surely get the Twins attention and might make them think twice about sending Santana to Fenway, but it wouldn’t exactly blow the Red Sox out of the water.

    Joba Chamberlain, Melky Cabrera, Jose Tabata and Dellin Betances seems like a better deal to me, but would the Yankees do that? Does that seem like too much?

    http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....posal.aspx

  57. MarkK December 4th, 2007 at 10:52 am

    None of this stuff is automatic? The same could be said of Phil Hughes, and I wonder how much of our devotion to Hughes is a result of organizational propaganda. Every other day, I’d hear something of Phil being the future, the franchise, etc. I’d never heard of Kennedy until I went looking online for what we had in the minors who could help out up top last year, and even when I did that, I didn’t find Joba.

  58. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 10:53 am

    The only sad thing about the trade not happening is the fact that our team is relatively unchanged from last year. We lost in the playoffs because our starting pitching failed us. Now we are going into 2008 with the same rotation and hoping the young kids can improve – two of whom are on innings caps.

  59. #9 December 4th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    Anyone know what Santana’s record is at Fenway?

  60. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    Nolan, I don’t think anyone is comparing Santana to Gagne. The point Pete is making is comparing the situation, not the player. People balked when Cash didn’t go after Gagne and GagME was TERRIBLE in Boston after they gave up players to get him. That would have cost us some young talent to get a guy who did jack. Turned out to be a bust for Boston and a win for Cashman/Yankees.

  61. EV December 4th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    Come on Pete…. comparing Santana to Gagne? Hardly the same thing.

    The Yankees are screwed if this trade goes through… and every Yankee fan should picket Selig’s office for allowing it. Seriously, why is it that the Twins can demand both Hughes AND Kennedy from the Yankees but will accept a deal from Boston with no star prospects?

  62. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    “Based on the reports, Boston seems to be handling the situation better so far, much quieter, although Cashmoney is very stealthy.”

    Well, no one’s trying to play them. The Twins ARE trying to play the Yankees.

    “We want Hughes”

    “Dammit. Ok, fine”

    “Cool, just hang on and let us see if we can get Ellsbury now…Hey, what’s up, we can’t get Ellsbury…hey, give us Kennedy too, though.”

    You have to be willing to walk away, or you’ll get played.

  63. EV December 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am

    #9 – his record at Fenway isn’t great, but don’t be fooled…. the stats are bloated because of one really bad game in his first year as a starter.

  64. pat December 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am

    As long as the Yankees don’t blink first on this one everything will be fine. Hard to swallow if Santana is playing in Boston next year on the trade proposal that is out there but I trust Cash to make things work. He’s been able to in the past with alot fewer options to work with.

  65. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am

    Deadline is passed, time to pull Hughes out of the deal…

    IPK and a nice package… We are not trying to embarrass the twins, give them a fair hughesless package…

    Let him stay in Minny for the year… I doubt johan goes to free agency next year, but if he does, the fact that others are on the market as well might keep his price down a bit… And there is also a chance that hughes really steps up this year…

    Johan is the best – but i am starting to get the feeling that Boston is not interested… There is too much info, too many leaks… Too orchestrated….

  66. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Santana’s Fenway ERA is 6.89 in 15 IPs. Irrelevant based on sample size.

  67. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 10:57 am

    Mark K, that’s because Kennedy and Joba came on last year and shot through the system like a rocket. But if you didn’t hear about them till September, you must not have been on this blog at all, because they were no secrets.

    If I remember correctly, they were also on Baseball Prospectus top prospects lists as well, pretty early on in the season.

  68. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 10:58 am

    Santana’s Fenway ERA is 6.89 in 15 IPs. Irrelevant based on sample size.

    yeah.. id ont know who posted this first.
    but i th ink alot of pitchers have a bad era against that lineup

  69. William December 4th, 2007 at 10:58 am

    Let the Sox have Santana. His ERA at Fenway is over 6.00.

  70. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am

    Counter Boston’s offer with this:

    IPK/Melky/Horne or Tabata

    They lost the chance to get Hughes and we can still offer a better package than Boston’s.

  71. marc December 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am

    Phil,
    You’re talking about an 07 Yankee team that won 70% of their games after the all-star break and did not have Joba in the rotation.

  72. Fleas December 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am

    This has to be a joke. OMG, I am going to pull my hair out if Santana goes to Boston for this lame package.

    Could be that Santana wanted Boston all along.

  73. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    i just saw the mentioning of inning caps with the kids… The good news is you have Pettite, w/o him, the innings become a big problem… With him, you can structure the rotation

    wang pet ipk hughes joba (Mussina can play golf – break glass in case of injury)

    The amount of innings your 4-5 guys will throw will be less than your top 3…

  74. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    Do not sleep on Cashman coming out of this the genius. We could end up getting Santana for a lesser package than what was offered originally.

  75. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    Ok, Lester was rated highly a few years ago. And his control has remained, as ever, his problem. Both Hughes and Kennedy don’t have that problem which, to me, makes them more projectable. History is replete with young guys who had great stuff and turned out to be nothing because they never learned to control it.

    Personally, I think putting Hughes in over Lester balances out the difference between Lowrie and whoever the Yanks are including. You want an IFer? Take Betemit and cash. The Masterson guy…he’s a middle reliever, if he pans out. He doesn’t strike out enough guys to be a setup man or closer. Fine, throw in Kevin Whelan or someone like that.

  76. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

    Yeah Mark,

    I’ve followed Hughes since he was drafted. I have a lot invested in him. I personally thought Joba was a steal when he was drafted and that kennedy was a horrible pick. Right on one, way off on another.

    Despite the fact that they are young and unproven, they have the best possible track records that any 21-22 year olds can possibly have.

    you know what? fuck the twins. i want to keep hughes, and I don’t care if that means he goes to the red sox.

  77. zack December 4th, 2007 at 11:01 am

    I think its great to hold onto Hughes, but I also think it would have been far better to have Santana. YOu can say all you want about Hughes maybe winning a cy young at some point, but there is no way around the fact that the chances of Santana continuing to be, well Johan Santana, are far far higher than the chances of Phil Hughes winning a cy young or the like. Period.

    The swing from the Yankees having Santana to the Sox having Santana is huge. Even if he isn’t all that great at Fenway, you can bet your ass when he pitches at the Stadium he will be. You simply can’t go into a series with matchups like:
    Beckett vs. Pettitte
    Sanatana vs. Wang
    Joba/Hughes vs. Felon/Schill

    and expect to win. And thats over the next 4-5 years.

    Its great to have Hughes. For now, so enjoy it. There is a very strong chance he will still be traded, and if not, it will be great to see him develop while competing with the (Devil) Rays for 2nd place…

  78. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 11:01 am

    “This RedSox team with Santana will be unstoppable. Mark my words. So let’s hope the deal falls apart.”

    That’s the same fallacy that says the Yankees need Santana at any price. He’s not Superman. (Where are all those “He’s in decline” types when you need them?) A lefty who gave up 33 dingers last year is not the same weapon for the Sox with that Green Monster in left as he is in the Stadium.

    Bottom line: There is a price that’s too high, Santana is not Superman and no team is unstoppable. Hughes, Joba, Wang, Pettitte and Moose/IPK is a vast improvement over last year when the Yankees finished 2 games out with crap pitching. While I’d rather have Santana than face him, everybody should stop playing chicken little.

  79. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 11:01 am

    I would recommend you read the SWB blog as Chad Jennings whom you recommend clearly has a different opinion of the Red Sox players as do quite a few others from what I have read at MLB Trade Rumors.

    First of all I read Mr. Chad Jennings blog quite often and often times he is ranking prospects based on reports he has read. He hasn’t seen a bunch of these players play and is strictly reporting based on what baseball prospectus or baseball america may have said in the past.

    With that I will say take what you read on his blog with a grain of salt.

  80. Mister Delaware December 4th, 2007 at 11:01 am

    “If I remember correctly, they were also on Baseball Prospectus top prospects lists as well, pretty early on in the season.”

    Joba was 3rd, Kennedy was 9th (behind Whelan, Clippard and Cox). Part of the reason I think he should be cashed in now for a more sure thing SP.

  81. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Yeah Mark,

    I’ve followed Hughes since he was drafted. I have a lot invested in him. I personally thought Joba was a steal when he was drafted and that kennedy was a horrible pick. Right on one, way off on another.

    Despite the fact that they are young and unproven, they have the best possible track records that any 21-22 year olds can possibly have.

    you know what? f*** the twins. i want to keep hughes, and I don’t care if that means he goes to the red sox.

  82. hahahaha December 4th, 2007 at 11:03 am

    The Yankees have pulled out of this the way a man with 11 children does.

    Wait, stop, reverse that . . .

  83. The Monk December 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Right now, the Santana-to-Yankees deal looks dead. The Yanks felt they had the best package on the table with Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and a B level prospect over the RedSawx’ offer of Jon Lester, Jed Lowrie, Coco Crisp and Jeremy Masterson. Those offers are close — the $11M Crisp is owed and the lesser talents of Masterson and Lester are offset by the Yanks’ refusal to include a third top prospect in the deal. Moreover, and thankfully, the Yanks internally are uncomfortable with trading Hughes. They should be — this is a top-of-the-rotation starter with a makeup to match his physical skills (unlike Kyle Farnsworth).

    If the Yanks were not thrilled about trading Hughes for Santana, they DEFINITELY should not trade him as part of a Danny Haren deal. Haren is the Yanks’ plan B at this point because they don’t think the Orioles would trade lefty Erik Bedard within the division. Haren is a fine pitcher, one The Monk would be pleased to see in pinstripes. But he is worth a Kennedy-Melky-Horne package, not Hughes. Bedard (13-5, 3.16, 221K in 182 IP) is a lower-cost and lower-mileage Santana and had a better season than Santana last year. The Kennedy-Melky-Horne package for Bedard is also a good one.

  84. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    Mister Delaware
    December 4th, 2007 at 10:38 am
    A Kennedy led package isn’t as good simply because of Lowrie. I don’t love the guy, but he is a valuable IF bat for a team that desperately needs one.

    ________________________________________________________
    Delawarte…Casey Stengel said it best. “A guy that knocks in to runs with his bat doesn’t do me any good when he lets in 3 with his glove.”

    Take a look at his defensive numbers in the minors.

    http://minors.baseball-referen.....i?pid=8591

  85. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    here’s sweeny on the fan

  86. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 11:04 am

    two runs. edit. Need an edit option.

  87. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:05 am

    IF IT IS NOT FOR SANTANA – DO NOT TRADE HUGHES FOR ANYONE…

    i only wanted to trade Hughes for Santana because santana is he proven and the best in the game…. All these other names being thrown around are many notches below Johan

  88. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 11:05 am

    “Could be that Santana wanted Boston all along.”

    Sounds unlikely, but anything is possible. People in baseball indicated that NY was where he wanted to go, but you never really know. He has the no-trade clause, so could very well have said, get me the best deal possible to play in Boston and I’ll accept it. Otherwise, I’m hitting FA next year.

    Again, sounds unlikely, but anything is possible.

  89. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    if johan ends up in boston it looks like the biggest winner will be oakland..

    yanks will have to overpay for haren and the twins and yanks will both look like poor negotiators

  90. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    why would we trade either youngster for haren?

  91. SAndMan December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    Pete you are now foolish…There is no automatic but name one pitcher who is.I can’t believe a 3.33 Era in the AL,over 230 stikeouts, and Santana is good.

  92. Real World December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    Total steal if that’s the actual deal. The Redsox give up nobody. Just like with Schilling, this deal is a joke. I’m glad we keep Hughes, but the Sox not paying is ridiculous. How is Ellsbury not in the deal?

  93. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 11:06 am

    What do you want the Yankees to do? Add to an already superior package?

    It takes two to do a deal.

    If Bill Smith settles for that package for Santana, he should be fired.

    All this, “He is mad at Hank” stuff is BS.

    If the guy is that incompetent to give away his ace because of a hissy fit, he doesn’t belong in a GM’s chair.

    The Yankees can’t put Hughes and Kennedy in the same deal. It makes no sense from their perspective.

    Especially, since Mussina and Pettitte are done after this season.

    At some point, restraint is ok.

    They made a big offer and the Twins, if they take it, settled for something less from another team.

    Short of giving away more assets, I don’t know what else some of you want the Yankees to do.

  94. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:07 am

    Why can’t we go to war with our staff as is?

  95. CB December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    This is more posturing. There is no way the twins are going to be able to go public with this 3 player deal. They cannot sell it to their fans.

    It is not going to happen.

  96. qwerty December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    As far as lockerroom dynamics, I think we stick with the young talent. Born and bread yankees with the leadership and coaching they’ve already had and are going to receive in coming years.

    Brining in a megastar like Santana can be messy in terms of lockerroom chemistry. If anything I hope the RS do get him and it causes a stir with Beckett & Co.

  97. J. V. - Yonkers December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    C’mom Peter, let’s not portray Epstein as a genius. The “Wonderboy” has seen his share of days being called “Blunderboy” and fickle Boston fans have called for his rump on many occasions. He only looks as good as when Santana is locked into a long term deal and not until. There’s been no sightings of a fat lady singing in Nashville contrary to belief that some would think. Nothing yet to indicate any legs in the deal. Still stuck in neutral. Bill Smith is still aware of the large shadow of New York unless he’s just plain delusional.

  98. Nacho December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    How close is this deal to getting done? He kind of makes his blog post without any background. Is this a valid rumor, is a deal inevitable? Is this just speculation? Should we be panicking, or is this just another one of the many rumors that have/will surface?

  99. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    was our goal to develop prospects just to trade them away?

  100. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:08 am

    they won’t trade hughes for anyone else.

    SJ44,

    they could have offered up either horne or jackson. maybe not both, but at least one of them.

  101. The Monk December 4th, 2007 at 11:09 am

    GreenBeret – don’t put too much stock in minor league defensive stats. Look at how awful Jeter was in the minors in the years immediately after he signed.

  102. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:09 am

    Santana is not in decline – but we have to hold strong… It is one thing to cave on something said to a player in the organization (a-rod) but you have to be tough when negotiating with other teams…

    The deadline is passed – pull hughes…

  103. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 11:09 am

    Semantics.

  104. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 11:10 am

    The Kennedy-Melky-Horne package for Bedard is also a good one.

    Sure it’s great from the Yankees perspective. However, and this has been gone over a million times in this blog already, the Yankees are not getting Bedard.

  105. rb15 December 4th, 2007 at 11:11 am

    I agree, SJ – there’s nothing else to do, just sit tight and see what happens. We can’t offer more than we have – it’s a fair, good offer, and it’s up to the Twins. It would not be prudent for the Yankees to put anything more in that offer, esp. since the Twins would probably just take it back to the Sox anyway. I would be very happy to see Santana, Pet, Wang, Joba, IPK/Moose – I’d be happy to see Pet, Wang, Hughes, Joba, IPK/Moose – there’s a point where you just have to let it lie.

    Enough of this for now. I’ll check back in tonight, but I’m pretty much done with Santanamania.

  106. asburyboss December 4th, 2007 at 11:11 am

    the only to put Kennedy in the deal as well is they have these guys coming this year or next (or theyre already here),

    Humberto Sanchez
    Alan Horne
    Jeff Karstens
    Kei Igawa (can we just give hima way?)

    If we can do the deal with Horne in place of kennedy I think we have to…

    worst case scenario…we get to keep Phil Hughes and Melky.

  107. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am

    The Monk:

    And some would say that the minor league defensive stats on Jeter were a true indicator that the glove isn’t his best weapon. He’s cut down on errors but also gave up some range doing so.

  108. asburyboss December 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Jed Lowrie is the equivalent of Alberto Gonzalez.

  109. CB December 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am

    For the past 17 years no pitcher who was ever ranked as the best pitching prospect by baseball america has ever been traded before completing his first major league season (excluding DiceK).

    In Phil Hughes that’s what the Yankees offered the twins.

    That’s how rare offerring a pitcher of Hughes quality is.

    If the twins don’t want it they are making an enormous mistake.

    This is Bill Smith’s first major move as a GM after taking over for a storied general manager.

    There is no way Smith is going to build his legacy based on Jon Lester/ Coco/ Lowerie and Masterson.

    And if he does that has nothing to do with Hank or the yankees.

    That’s purely Smith’s incompetence.

  110. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am

    lowrie’s okay. let’s not make him out to be the big piece of this deal. to be honest, i don’t know who the centerpiece of this offer is. lester? it isn’t crisp. it isn’t masterson. i doubt it’s lowrie (who most people believe will have to move to second at some point). i guess it’s lester — a potential #2 if everything works out. but lester will need to dramatically cut his walks to reach that ceiling.

  111. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:13 am

    i wonder what we will do with Mussina,

    Say all the kids have great camps, mussina is a bit shaky, karstens is absolutely LIGHTS OUT….

    what do we doe with Moose

  112. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 11:13 am

    You don’t trade your CF of the future (Jackson) when you have an ace-type starter in the deal.

    Horne was offered in different permutations of the deal and the Twins rejected it.

    They seem stuck on Kennedy. You can’t trade Hughes and Kennedy in the same deal.

    In 2-3 years Austin Jackson might well be better than Coco Crisp. The Yankees can’t include him in a deal.

    At some point, you are at the mercy of the other guy in trade talks.

    If Bill Smith doesn’t want to trade Santana to the Yankees, unless he fleeces them, the only way it happens is if you allow him to fleece you.

    As much as a Pro-Santana guy as I am, there is no way I include 3 A List prospects AND my starting CF in this deal.

    That would be GM malpractice on the part of Cashman.

  113. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 11:14 am

    Pete is right, this WOULD be a tremendous deal for the Sox.

    but he is wrong that it depends who the third player is.

    the Yankees package is ALREADY better. if the Twins asked for Kennedy of Horne or Jackson on top of Hughes, the Yankees were right to walk away.

    no second guessing.

    and i say this knowing fully the Sox will be HEAVY favorites in the AL East next year.

    what can you do? you can’t be taken advantage of like that.

    Hughe, Melky + B prospect is more than fair.

  114. Chris NY December 4th, 2007 at 11:14 am

    berra, SJ is right though, the package we offered was already superior, why should we and why would we offer more on top of an already superior offer?

    “Why can’t we go to war with our staff as is?” – I think we can and part of me thinks we should. Unless a FAIR (equal value) deal is out there, that’s exactly what we should do.

  115. jashell2000 December 4th, 2007 at 11:15 am

    “now that pettite is coming back id just let it roll with the kids pettite and wang.”

    Let’s not forget that Mussina still is technially in the rotation too. Yanks are paying him $12mil in 08. I don’t see any team jumping to eat that kind of contract for a pitcher past his prime. What do the yanks do with him send him to the pen?….not for that kind of $.

    This leads me back to my statement yesterday of keep Joba in the pen in 08, and put him in the rotation in ’09. Mussina and Andy (presumably) will be out by then…

  116. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:17 am

    If there are asking for IPK, give him to them..

    but pull Hughes from the deal… I know i am beating a dead horse here, but the deadline passed, PULL HUGHES FROM THE DEAL…

  117. randy l. December 4th, 2007 at 11:17 am

    somewhere in this mess, in minnesota’s mind, lester has become equivalent to hughes.

    hughes was considered the best pitching prospect in the game before he was rushed to plug the holes in the major league staff last spring. hughes has been devalued by an injury plagued season where he wasn’t handled properly.

    if hughes is what the yankees think he is , he’ll come back. i’d take him off the table because the twins clearly don’t place as high a value on him as the yankees. the yankees should resubmit another package to counter the red sox offer that offers something based around kennedy, horne , tabata, and melky. this would at least counter the red sox offer and make the twins want more from the red sox.hank

    hank needs to realize as much as he doen’t like it, he has to stay in the game to make sure the red sox have to swallow a bitter pill if they get santana.

  118. Propaghandi December 4th, 2007 at 11:18 am

    Don’t forget. If the Twins refuse to move on a deal, Santana said he would veto any trade after the season starts. Meaning the Twins will get NOTHING for Santana but 2 draft picks at the end of the 2008 season.

    It behooves Minny to make a move NOW. And if Hank took the Yankees out of it, Minny has no choice but to take the best offer on the table.

    If that happens to be the Sox, then it’s the Sox.

  119. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 11:18 am

    “lowrie’s okay. let’s not make him out to be the big piece of this deal.”

    I think Lowrie’s more than okay. He’s certainly better than AG (wow, that joke works on so many levels :-D). He’s not a stud, but he’s a very good hitter. I dunno if he’ll kill you with the glove, but it’s certainly not his best weapon.

    Tabata and Jackson project better, but are further away – and in a position the Twins aren’t as thin as middle IF.

    So, I could see them wanting Lowrie. But, enough to accept Crisp and Lester instead of Hughes and Melky? That just seems kind of absurd.

  120. bottom line December 4th, 2007 at 11:18 am

    Please keep in mind that Twins owner Carl Pohlad is something of a Yankee-hater. When you read abut small-market teams and the need for revenue sharing and luxury taxes, think Carl Pohlad. He has always been a close ally and supporter of another Yankee hater in high places: Bud Selig. I’m sure Pohlad would not hesitate to stick it to New York.

    That said, it simply defies understanding that the Twins would accept a deal built around Lester. Obviously, he benefits from the glow of his post-season performance but everything else about him screams 10-11 or 12-10. I saw nearly every one of his game, sometimes seated with baseball people, and this guy is nothing near an elite talent. Best comparison would be a poor man’s Alan Horne. Not quite the stuff, perhaps not even quite the command but a pretty live arm, nonetheless. Unlike Kennedy, who has at least a chance of being a Glavine-type, or Hughes, who clearly has ace potential, Lester is a best a health question mark and a somewhat erratic #3.

    As to Crisp, he is near the equal of Melky — but that’s only if you exclude throwing. This man makes Johnny Damon look like Ichiro — he has one of the weakest arms in the game. Masterson is a decent prospect, ranked #13 in the Eastern League by Baseball America. But that puts him way behind both Kennedy (#5) and Horne (#7). As, I believe. some have observed Kennedy and Horne (without Hughes, of course) is a far better tandem than Lester and Masterson.

    It’s simply hard to believe this deal– as outlined– could fly.

  121. Yankee Jay December 4th, 2007 at 11:19 am

    I can’t help but think this whole thing is a farce. The Twins would be MORONS to trade Johan for Lester, Coco, and two mid level prospects. They would be crucified by the local press and fans, as well they should be. Truly there is no hurry for them to trade him. Does that group really give you enough of a bump in the next few years to justify throwing in the towell this year…I don’t think so.

  122. RussoMcbo78 December 4th, 2007 at 11:19 am

    according 1050espn twins agreed on a deal with the redsox

  123. Mitch December 4th, 2007 at 11:19 am

    Minnesota fans are not stupid. They cringe at the thought of Crisp in CF. His noodle arm makes Damon’s look like a rifle. What does he do with a runner on 2nd with less than 2 outs and a fly ball hit to him ? Flip the ball to Delmon Young with hopes of nailing the runner at third ?

  124. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:19 am

    This whole thing seems to be coming down to this:
    Beckett vs Santana, Game 7 ALCS.
    I don’t think Beckett would have run roughshod over us like he did a choking Indian team or any National league team.

    Twins GM is playing this like a fantasy league. Along with the sox. Any deal that includes coco crisp plus lester, both 2nd choices to ellsbury and bucholtz, reaks of collusion. In any case the choice is Santana’s, all else is bs, they could offer them Big Papi back along with Beckett,
    and Santana could play GM and say “no thanks.” NTC.

  125. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:20 am

    kennedy, horne , tabata, and melky.

    Exactly – force the hand of Boston…

    At the least i think they would have to add Ellsbury… I dont want to lose Tabata, but for johan it is worth it…

  126. EV December 4th, 2007 at 11:20 am

    jashell – if you put Joba in the pen, you pretty much remove him from the rotation for good.

    Kennedy will start the season in the minors and will come up after the first injury. Between all 6 pitchers 1 will be injured and the other 5 will be pitching. You’ll see.

  127. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 11:20 am

    Propaghandi, then expect Bill Smith to be fired, because he will be known for the stupidest trade in baseball soon

  128. donniebaseball December 4th, 2007 at 11:21 am

    if the sox get santana for lester, crisp and matteson they will have heisted the twins, the yankees deal was more compelling, i don’t want to move hughes…i hope the mets come in and make and offer, they need pitching

  129. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 11:23 am

    “And if Hank took the Yankees out of it, Minny has no choice but to take the best offer on the table.”

    Hank took the current deal off the table, and stepped away. He didn’t say they wouldn’t pick up the phone if the Twins called them again.

    This is how these things go. If Cash/Hank stayed at the table, the Twins would just keep trying to escalate the Sox vs the Yanks. Why wouldn’t they?

  130. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:24 am

    the mets dont have enough parts to trade for a meter maid, let alone the best pitcher in baseball.. Unless they trade Reyes…

  131. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 11:25 am

    there is nothing the yankees can do to stop the Twins from making a bad trade.

    and the proposed trade is a bad trade on their end.

    the Yankees made a tremendous offer and a stronger offer than boston.

    i can sleep knowing that.

  132. dale baker December 4th, 2007 at 11:26 am

    there is no reason to assume that the twins will take the sox offer they already passed on just because the yankees have stopped negotiating for now. if the twins thought the sox offer was better, they would have accepted it last night. They know they can always call cash back and take the huges melky and whomever deal that was on the table.
    also why would any of you assume that the yanks would make the same offer for Haren that they made for Santana, like they were already boxed up so we just change the shipping label?
    The twins will come back to the yankees again before they accept the sox offer , and cash is not gonna offer the same package to oakland. have a little confidence in Cashman and remember sometimes the best deal is the deal you dont make

  133. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 11:26 am

    By October Hughes and Joba will be ready to dominate a short series or three.

  134. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 11:26 am

    IF they Twins pulled this deal off. Something needs to be done about this “Yankee Tax” BS. This is the Schilling deal all over again.

  135. Trade collusion December 4th, 2007 at 11:26 am

    It’s simple folks:

    Teams have not only conspired to keep the Yanks from getting marquee pitchers via trade since 1997, but they’ve always handed those pitchers to the Red Sox by taking mediocre packages.

    Montreal trades Pedro to Boston because (Montreal’s) g.m. was pissed at being fleeced by the Yanks in the Wetteland trade.

    Arizona trades Schilling to Boston for a far inferior package to what the Yanks offered for Randy Johnson (Soriano and Johnson) which AZ would’ve asked for Schilling. This trade was also done out of spite: David Wells signed with the Yanks after a handshake deal to sign with Arizona, as if it’s the Yanks’ fault Wells went back on his word (when it wasn’t).

    Florida trades Beckett and Lowell to Boston for basically one player (Hanley Ramirez). Betcha Florida doesn’t take
    Chien Ming-Wang straight up after his 2005.

    If Minnesota trades Santana to Boston for the package reported, that’s a joke. Hughes is better than Lester, Cabrera is better than Crisp, Crisp’s remaining $10M negates Masterson and Lowrie as being bargains, any number of midlevel prospects are better than Masterson, and isn’t Alberto Gonzalez better than Lowrie at least defensively?

    Out all the players the Red Sox have traded for Pedro, Schilling, and Beckett, the only one worth a shit is Hanley Ramirez.

    Hughes would make less than $400K next year, Cabrera still

  136. Vertigo December 4th, 2007 at 11:27 am

    Anybody talking about the how cashman looked when the Red Sox got Gagne needs to realize that it doesnt matter how poorly Gagne did for the Red Sox. All that matters is that they kept Gagne from going to us. We will never know how effective Gagne might have been had he come to the Yanks but we do know that we are always a day late and a reliever short in the postseason. I dont think anyone can look at this Santana deal without realizing that it is imperative not only to get Johan for ourselves but even more importantly to keep him from the Red Sox. We cant win the World Series if the they have Johan, plain and simple. We wont beat them in the regular season and we wont get by them in a short series with Beckett and Johan pitching 5 out of 7 games. And that is not just for this year but for the next 5 years at least. They would have the two best pitchers in baseball under the age of 30 under contract for at least 2 more years and you have to believe they will retain Beckett no matter what the cost. So try to remember that when getting excited that we didnt make a deal that will in all likelihood hand the Red Sox the World Series for the next 3 to 5 years.

  137. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 11:28 am

    guys, this has nothing to do with Hank.

    it’s kindof silly to think the Twins would take a lesser package b/c Hank mouthed off in the press.

    the fact is that the Twins never seemed interested in the Hughes package. remember, it’s now been 4 days since the yankees put Hughes on the table.

    it looks to me like the Twins were using the yankees to goad the Sox, not the other way around.

  138. Nacho December 4th, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Somebody said 1050espn radio reported the deal is done.. is that true?

  139. Mike December 4th, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Just look at the season Carmona had his first year. He was garbage. Then last season he was dominant, and a Cy Young candidate, and he had less experience than Hughes and Joba. I don’t believe that not enough experience makes them unlikely to do good right away. I can see any of Hughes/Joba/Kennedy having a very good season.

  140. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 11:29 am

    I have wfan on, they have Sweeney on, they aren’t saying anything about it.

  141. sd yankee fan December 4th, 2007 at 11:29 am

    If the Red Sox can get this deal done,more power to them.Like Pete said though nothing is for sure in baseball,Beckett has a history of blister problems,Schill is old,Dice K was not the most stable guy this year and Wakefield is well….Its not the end of the world if our rotation is Pettite Wang Hughes Joba and Moose.

  142. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 11:30 am

    hmmmmm,

    there is nothing the Yankees can do but there is a man by the name of Johan Santana who has something called a NTC. If he wants to play in NY, he’ll play in NY. Period.

  143. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:30 am

    Yanks are not being stupid here. THey knew this is what would happen. That’s why the deadline. As with Arod , the twins will come crawling back and “settle” for hughes and melky.

    This is where Hank/Cash take Hughes off the table. Unless the twins go elsewhere, which they won’t because they know
    no team will pay santana what he wants, then it’s kennedy and melky.

  144. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:31 am

    nacho,

    i’m listening. it’s all speculation based on the fact that the medical records have been exchanged. it’s a solid, though not definite, indication that a deal has been agreed to.

  145. whozat December 4th, 2007 at 11:31 am

    “We wont beat them in the regular season and we wont get by them in a short series with Beckett and Johan pitching 5 out of 7 games.”

    Why not? The Yanks beat Beckett this season a couple times. The Indians handled Santana this year several times.

  146. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:33 am

    Flam,

    You got that right.

  147. Nacho December 4th, 2007 at 11:34 am

    Maybe the Twins asked for the medical records because they knew it would leak, and they wanted the Yankees to panic and throw prospects at them.
    I, for one, am panicing. The Red Sox will be the best team ever with a rotation like that. Will the Yankees still beat up on smaller market teams? Yes. But forget about winning the division and get ready to embrace the wild card.

  148. zack December 4th, 2007 at 11:34 am

    Citing the “anything can happen” cliche for baseball is the creed of desperation. Yeah, anything could happen, but what likely WILL happen is that Boston ‘s rotation will blow the Yankees’ out of the water for the next 4 or so years.

  149. Vertigo December 4th, 2007 at 11:35 am

    Flam

    Santanta doesnt care where he plays as long as he gets two things….
    a chance to win (which he gets in Boston)
    and a boatload of money likely more than 20 mil a year but definitely(which Boston will also give him)

    So his NTC means nothing. And the amusing part is if he gets traded to the Red Sox I will bet that he takes the same amount of money he turned down with the Twins. $20 million a year because he wants that chance to win. Everyone knows it is easier to win with the Red Sox. Look at how the Cards and the Rox both laid down and died against the Sox in the WS unlike the Marlins against us.

  150. jashell2000 December 4th, 2007 at 11:36 am

    EV – I see what you are saying and I do agree that someone will get hurt at some point during the season.

    I don’t agree that Joba in the pen in ’08 means pen forever. He was groomed to be a starter so it would not be foreign to him to go back. Additionally, with past health concerns for Joba (which is why I think the Joba rules were really created along with other factors) taking it easy on a 21 year old kid makes more sense in my mind. If one full season means pen 4 ever then why would’nt the “half” season he just did also mean the same thing? Is there a time limit I don’t know about?

    Also, with Horne, Karstens, and who knows which pitchers turn the corner in the minors in ’08 there a quite a few horses we can run out of the stable.

  151. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:36 am

    Santana could stay w/ twins. Really who will be willing to pay him? Let’s start talking Dontrelle and watch Santana turn red.

  152. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 11:37 am

    The best team ever? Please, let’s not get carried away.

  153. Vertigo December 4th, 2007 at 11:37 am

    whozat

    If you have to ask why we wont get by them, then I am not going to tell you. We couldnt get by CC and Fausto and Paul Turd this postseason but you think we can hit Johan and Beckett. Please get me some of what you are smoking.

  154. Kill-Schill(ing) December 4th, 2007 at 11:37 am

    SJ44, I applaud the Cashman’s decision to refuse to include Kennedy in the Santan deal.

    HOWEVER, I can’t necessarily endorse his refusal to include Alan Horne or perhaps, Dellin Betances. Betances is still a very raw, untested talent and years away besides from contributing to a major league roster. Meanwhile, the Yankees envision Horne for the bullpen next year, if they even promote him this season. And in the long term, the Brass has even considered converting him into a reliever permanently, as they did with Ohlendorf.

    If the Yankees farm system is that deep in pitching– with Brackman, Melancon, Steven White, Humberto Sanchez, Christian Garcia, and McCutchen– then why not include a Horne or Betances in the deal along with Hughes and Cabrera.

    Something else to keep in mind. Do all of you recall your Economic 101 class? One of those eternal flaws of human judgment: People always will demand a higher price for commodities they already own than they themselves would pay for those commodities on the open market.

    I fear the Yankeees are overcompensating for their history of giving away their prospects for nothing by overvaluing them.

  155. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 11:38 am

    The Monk
    December 4th, 2007 at 11:09 am
    GreenBeret – don’t put too much stock in minor league defensive stats. Look at how awful Jeter was in the minors in the years immediately after he signed.

    _________________________________________________
    Monk, some facts are undeniable. His defense is not improving. In fact they’re getting worse at 2nd base where they plan to use him…and on carpet. I saw him in the Carolina League and his reflexes are slower than normal and does not have infielder’s hands. He’s singles hitting DH.

  156. Dood December 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    Hey Mitch,

    Damon’s arm is the worst in the league. It’s not even close.

  157. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    Yeah, anything could happen, but what likely WILL happen is that Boston ’s rotation will blow the Yankees’ out of the water for the next 4 or so years.

    But what if Joba and Hughes and Kennedy become what we all think they are? What if next year they add CC to the rotation to go along with Joba/Hughes/Kennedy. All this talk about the next 4 years is completely irrelevant. Maybe next year the Sox rotation is better. In 2009/10/11/12 it’s anybody’s guess.

  158. ellen December 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    I’m not hearing confirmation that a deal has been done already – anyone else?

  159. Vertigo December 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    whozat……………….

    If you have to ask why we wont get by them, then I am not going to tell you. We couldnt get by CC and Fausto and Paul Turd this postseason but you think we can hit Johan and Beckett. Please get me some of what you are smoking.

  160. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:39 am

    Wouldn’t it be ironic if Santana had to stay with the Twins?

  161. erikp December 4th, 2007 at 11:40 am

    it was RussoMcbo78 who said that espn 1050 reported that. Care to elaborate?

  162. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 11:40 am

    Willis, no way!! I would not trade for him! He had a terrible year last year, he pitches in a pitchers park. I would not touch him with a 10 foot poll.

  163. Real World December 4th, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Wow, Jose Guillen just got 3 years and $36 million from the Royals. Nice player, but $12 million per? The money in baseball is getting more than ridiculous.

    It’s clear that the Twins don’t value Hughes as highly as most others do. Hughes is a superior prospect to Lester. My guess is that they feel the combination of Masterson & Lowrie is more valuable than the difference between Hughes & Lester. I can’t say that’s illogical on their part. That’s probably why they want the 3rd piece from the Yankees to be more than a B/C guy.

  164. Vertigo December 4th, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Does anyone else have the problem that they post a comment and it doesnt show up and then when you try to repost that same comment it says you cant. Because I have had two of my comments lost because of that. This was one of them….

    whozat

    If you have to ask why we wont get by them, then I am not going to tell you. We couldnt get by CC and Fausto and Paul Turd this postseason but you think we can hit Johan and Beckett. Please get me some of what you are smoking.

  165. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Twins are reviewing Lesters medical records. What do they expect to find?

  166. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Seems like the Yankee fan kids are in a panic.

    If the Twins do end up dealing Santana for the players the RS offer, then they do. Bill Smith will be laughed at for his poor choice based on emotion, Theo will yet again seem like the wonderdog. Then the Yankee lineup will rip Santana apart in Fenway and Theo will be the junkyard dog.

    Don’t buy all the hype and talks going on till something really solid happens. And please, stop acting like Red Sox fans.

  167. Nacho December 4th, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Yes, the best team ever. Tell me a team that had a better rotation, complimented by a top-flight leadoff man, two of the best hitters (both power and average) in baseball in Manny & Ortiz, and a cast of other great role players in Lowell and Yukilis. Not to mention arguable the best closer in baseball and a more than solid bullpen. Tell me where I can find a hole in that team, and tell me a team that had a better pitching/hitting tandem?

  168. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 11:42 am

    Vertigo:

    Minny would have to be out of their mind to explain to their fan base, which is very passionate by the way, that they gave not only their most valuable player, but the most dominant pitcher in the leauge TO the best team in baseball for Lester, Coco and some other D-Bag prospects. They arent going to just “fill holes” and expect to be competitive. They want the best prospects they can get and that was the Yankees offered.

    I highly doubt Minny accepts this deal.

  169. Doreen December 4th, 2007 at 11:42 am

    SJ44 –

    You said something I was thinking — the Yankees cannot put Kennedy and Hughes in the same trade.

    This is not the only item on the Yankees’ agenda, for one thing. And you don’t develop the farm to blow it all in one throw of the dice.

    It appears the Yankees have made a better than very good offer for Santana, they included a player they were reluctant to include, because they were led to believe if they did so, a deal could be reached. I am aware that as Yankee fans all of us weight Melky probably a little heavier than he should be, because of this “en-er-gy” quotient, but he is a good everyday centerfielder with average range and a better than average arm, who will hit .300 or close to it with a little pop. I don’t know why the Twins don’t seem to be willing to take 2 lesser prospects from the Yankees but appear willing to do so from the Red Sox. Only the Twins can answer that.

    The bottom line for me is the Yankees did everything reasonable to get this deal done, and so far it appears it is not going to satisfy the Twins.

    I certainly would agree that the idea of Santana in the Red Sox rotation clearly makes them the “team to beat” in 2008, but you still have to play the games. Nothing is guaranteed. The Yankees have an offense that is second to none; Pettitte and Wang will ably anchor the pitching staff and the “kids” should be able to perform well enough. I don’t think the should go all out for another starter. If this falls through, as it appears it will, the Yankees need to shore up their bullpen, because it will be taxed again like last year, and they need more depth and consistency out there.

    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents.

    I will admit that it is a little crushing to lose out on Santana, but the way it’s all shaking out, there’s nothing the Yankees have to be ashamed of with the way their handling it.

  170. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 11:43 am

    marc:

    does it matter? let them give him a full frontal physical exam, colonoscopy and prostate exam. NTC!!!

  171. randy l. December 4th, 2007 at 11:44 am

    “the fact is that the Twins never seemed interested in the Hughes ”
    this seems to be the key to unlocking what the twins are thinking. they simply don’t value hughes like the yankees do, so the yankees need to come back with another package.
    the red sox can’t be left in this alone.

  172. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 11:46 am

    jashell2000
    December 4th, 2007 at 11:15 am
    “now that pettite is coming back id just let it roll with the kids pettite and wang.”

    Let’s not forget that Mussina still is technially in the rotation too. Yanks are paying him $12mil in 08. I don’t see any team jumping to eat that kind of contract for a pitcher past his prime. What do the yanks do with him send him to the pen?….not for that kind of $.

    This leads me back to my statement yesterday of keep Joba in the pen in 08, and put him in the rotation in ‘09. Mussina and Andy (presumably) will be out by then…

    ___________________________________________________
    Mussina will get his share of starts subbing for the kids to keep their innings in check. At Musina’s age, as proved last year, he was better with a little extra rest from time to time.

  173. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:46 am

    Flam,

    It’s a dog and pony show.

    Santana is the GM with the NTC.

  174. vrsce December 4th, 2007 at 11:47 am

    The Yankees gave it their best. They were at that magic point in any deal. The Point of Indifference. That is, they put forth their best package, if that gets it done, great. If not, they are happy to stand pat or do another deal and can walk with a clear conscience, master of their own destiny and not owned.

  175. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 11:47 am

    This is indeed the Shill deal all over gain. Also, the Gagme deal (they took at best a number 4 starter and from us wanted– you guessed it– Hughes. It is always the same with teams talking trade with the Yankees. Would Minnesota knowingly take a worse package to stick it to the Yankees? Hard to believe, but what were the Dbacks thinking? Or Texas? That said, as much as I did not want to give up PH, I reluctantly favored it in order to keep him away from the bosux. And I agree with Berra, having gone that far I would have included Horne, who despite having an impressive repertoire of pitches, may never have command sufficient to succeed in the ML. I did not read anywhere that they had packaged PH, Melky and Horne. If they did and it was rejected, then maybe there is something to this spite the Yankees thing as hard as that is to believe. Because THAT deal would hgave dwarfed the bosux pasckage.

  176. murphydog December 4th, 2007 at 11:48 am

    nacho:

    Nobody said it wasn’t a good team. But “best team ever” you’re not getting.

    Would it be OK with you if we played next season out instead of conceding the title to you now and see how that turns out?

  177. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:49 am

    the kid with the Espn radio announcement was just trying to tweak you guys… Nextime you see somthing like that just throw on the ESPN website… In this day in age, if espn RADIO anoounces something, it will be on ESPN website within minutes..

    Posturing… Propaganda… I think the Twins hired Oliver Stone to help out on this one…

  178. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 11:49 am

    simply don’t value hughes like the yankees do, so the yankees need to come back with another package.

    If this were the case then the Twins would not have insisted that Hughes be a part of the deal in the first. It’s obvious that their insistence means that they do think very highly of Hughes.

    Minnesota is just greedy. Do they really think that Hughes/Kennedy/Melky is the equivalent of Lester/Masterson (reliever at best)/Coco (and his 10 Mil salary/ and Lowrie?

    Who are they kidding? Cashman is not stupid and he will not allow the Yankees to be played.

  179. marc December 4th, 2007 at 11:50 am

    The twins seem desparate to trade their ace. Why is that? Because they have NO leverage that’s why. The Yanks and sox will go on and on and on past 08 into 09 and beyond b/c they are smart franchises who play to win, not pennypinching
    tightwads.

  180. TwinsfaninNY December 4th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    I’m not sure that the deal that we’re hearing (Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson) makes sense (especially Crisp’s contract):

    with that said, in terms of player talent:

    Lester, Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson beats Hughes, Cabrera, castoff.

    Lester and Hughes are both pitchers with major upsides and medical issues. Hughes’ upside is higher, yes. but as many Yankees fans seem to be ignorant off….most pitchers never live up to their potential. so Hughes beats Lester, yes…but it’s by no means a sure thing.

    Crisp and Cabrera are a wash in terms of performance. (Crisp’s contract is a separate issue.)

    Lowrie is a highly ranked talent. equivalent to Tabata or Jackson. (check the guides)

    Masterson projects as a potential top setup man. maybe even a closer. (if Santana is traded than Nathan is probably traded…moving Neshek to closer)

    that package beats the Yankees package cause of the prospects at the end.

    other thoughts: my guess is that Crisp would then be moved by the Twins (maybe packaged with Nathan for Kemp and LaRoche?)

    another thing:

    please stop posting the B.S. that Santana said he wouldn’t waive his NTC during the season. or that he would only accept a trade to the Yankees or Sox.
    his agent has directly denied those rumors. even said that Santana was “angry” to read them. (for one thing, he would love to play in the National League)

    if I had to guess, about halfway through the season when the Yankees are 20 games back and Hughes is still on the DL, they’ll start wondering why the didn’t do this deal just cause they wouldn’t trade Austin freaking Jackson.

  181. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 11:52 am

    The twins rated Hughes as the #1 player they would want in a Deal for Johan..

    Twins have issues with Melky.. They feel like melky is a 4th outfielder at best… Hughes and the 3rd prospect are not the issue.. Melky is the guy the twins are suspect on..

    Maybe offer a Hughes/Tabata/Jackson deal.. and Keep Melky..

    But IMO.. Melky is better then anything we can put out in center right now..
    and Id take Melky over Coco.. He is cheaper, more upside and plays the game as hard as anybody..

    Lester isnt outstanding.. but the key is lowrie and masterson.. Lowrie is a solid SS and masterson has a great sinker.. both kids have upside..

    But it appears to me that the yanks think highly of melky, and the twins do not.. Thats why the twins want a Better 3rd prospect

  182. ND Yank December 4th, 2007 at 11:52 am

    So after 1 month Ellsbury is a “top-flight” leadoff hitter? I have to see more to make that statement. I’ve seen to many guys come up and tear it up late in a year and then never live up to the hype.

  183. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 11:52 am

    Totally agree with that SJ44.

    As to Lester’s medical records, I bet they are looking at it to see if the cancer he had is of a type that can and does go in and out of remission. Its also to make the Yankees panic, like some posters here are doing.

    Yes, Santana will make the RS rotation look even better, but frankly, I don’t see Beckett doing a repeat, Dicey K isn’t going to improve – he will either stay the same or get worse.

    Think for one minute. If the Sox go after Santana right now it means they have concerns over their pitching. Especially if they give up the money reported that Santana wants to make.

    Schilling is another year older, and he is already past his best years. Wakefield? LOL. Buchholz is untested and he wasn’t as good as the Yankee kids, expect his value to drop when the league gets their chances at him.

    There comes a point where you either allow yourself to be hosed or you walk away. I personally thought the Yankees should never have offered Hughes to begin with, when the Twinkies asked for more the deal was dead. Killed by the Twins and their unreasonable demands.

  184. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:53 am

    I know he likes being on a set sched, but Mussina, as long as he gets his work in to stay sharp, might benefit from being in the 5 slot… But then you slide the other kids up in the rotation, and that might now work… Maybe Kennedy 3, hughes 4, Moose 5, Joba back to the minors to get work in…

    this is a horrible post on my part, we have not even gotten close to pitchers and catchers and i am talking about rotation…

  185. Fleas December 4th, 2007 at 11:53 am

    I hear Johan in my head..

    o O (Smith, if you can get a great deal for yourself, I will go to the Yankee’s, otherwise I prefer Boston)

    remember the NTC? Don’t think for a second the Twins don’t know Santana’s preference.

    *pure speculation of course..

  186. Stephen December 4th, 2007 at 11:53 am

    Nacho,

    “Tell me where I can find a hole in that team…?”

    Shortstop, middle relief, catcher. Varitek is a horse, but he’s an aging horse who’s productivity is declining.

  187. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Can’t but three center pieces in the same deal as Hughes/Tabata/Jackson would do. The Twins have overplayed their hand and now they’re gonna end up with the Red Sox taking a dump on their future.

  188. Quintana December 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am

    Please, I have no idea what the Yanks were offering Minny, but to say their offer was better than this alleged Sox deal is misguided.

    Crisp- a gold glove CF’er; been weak with the bat, but a change of scenery may help

    Lester- showed flashes last year after recovering from cancer; will be much better with an offseason to prepare for baseball, not just surviving in life

    Masterson- this guy was a beast last year before a minor injury slowed him down; think Derek Lowe before the issues…darn good

    Jed Lowrie- a middle infield, moneyball prototype. 47 doubles last year; compared to Carlos Guillen by some.

    That looks like a nice haul for Santana IMO.

  189. Dave December 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am

    seriously, hank steinbrenner should learn that he’s still a baby faced executive and shut his mouth. He has no clue what he is doing and is making us look like idiots at every step of every process he has put himself in the center of (from A-Rod to Santana). I hope Cashman finds a way to regain the power he annexed from George and tells Hank to take his self imposed deadlines and shove it

  190. yankee21 December 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am

    The points about Smith turning down a superior offer from the Yankees because of some disagreement or anger at Hank or the Yankees in general shouldn’t just be comical to Yankee fans,, but how about Twins fans- how do you all feel if your GM takes a worse deal just to spite another GM? You should be outraged! That is definitely GM malepractice.

    I said it before and I’ll say it again. You have to establish your walk away point,, if you signal to a seller that their product is a must have,you will indeed get fleeced. The Yankees have clearly signaled that Santana is not a must have. They are willing to overpay a little but they are not willing to be fleeced. Yankee fans, you should be proud of Cash and Hank.

    If that seller ultimatley sells to another buyer for at a lower cost then that seller is a damn fool and you as the former buyer know this is one seller you will not be doing business nor helping out in any way shape or form for the foreseable future.

    Yankees keep score, and not only on the field.

  191. CB December 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am

    If the twins don’t rate Hughes the way the yankees do so be it.

    If that’s the case the yankees are better off pulling the deal because they would be selling hughes at the absolute lowest point his trade value will have been over the past three years.

    A year ago the twins would have taken the hughes deal.

  192. ND Yank December 4th, 2007 at 11:55 am

    TwinsfaninNY
    December 4th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    if I had to guess, about halfway through the season when the Yankees are 20 games back and Hughes is still on the DL, they’ll start wondering why the didn’t do this deal just cause they wouldn’t trade Austin freaking Jackson.

    Don’t worry about us, we’ll be fine. Worry about where your Twins will be for the next 5 years.

  193. RosterRooster December 4th, 2007 at 11:57 am

    So, If we dont make the deal, then we have 6 starters:Wang, Andy, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, and Mussina. I suppose i would prefer to have Mussina start in the Pen, but it probably doesnt make the most sense. If Mussina has a good spring, he will get that #5 slot, and one of the kids will probably move to the Pen. Who does everyone think it should be? Which of the 3 kids is supposed to pitch the least amount of innings next year? I guess it should be that person. Although Kennedy might be less talented (right now) than Joba and Hughes, I think he should definately be in the rotation. He’s got quite a few pitches, and good composure(and his socks are so cool). I assume he’s on track to pitch the most innings of the 3 right? Anyways, if all 6 are healthy (whatever portion of the season that is) which one should be in the pen?

  194. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 11:57 am

    i love that twins and yankees fans are both so bitter about this potential deal. sounds like neither side is very happy with how it turned out.

  195. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 11:57 am

    i love wakefeild… Ten years from now he will still be pitching…

  196. myrtlebeachfan December 4th, 2007 at 11:58 am

    You are insane if you think the Red Sox are going to get Johan with that offer. Insane. Hughes is far better than anyone offered by the Sox and Melky is better than Coco and has proven more than Jacoby has. Lester is about = to Kennedy.

    Crazy.

  197. zack December 4th, 2007 at 11:58 am

    If anything Dice-K WILL improve. Hes too good not to…

  198. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 11:58 am

    Maybe after the Sox win yet another Series (after stealing Santana for nothing from the Twins), teams will finally wake up to the fact that they need to treat them like they currently treat the Yankees (i.e. hold them for ransom in trades rather than giving them sweetheart deals). I can only hope…

    I honestly don’t think Epstein is the wonder GM. If Cashman was the Red Sox GM, he could have made all the same deals Epstein has. It comes down to a fundamental difference in the way teams continue to deal with the Yanks.

  199. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 11:58 am

    If one thinks this trade (if it goes thru) makes the Red Sox the, “best team ever”, you must be 12 years old.

    It won’t even make them better than the ’98 Yankees.

    Formidable? Yes. Best team ever? Hardly.

    Look back at the historically great teams in baseball before making such a panic statement.

    At some point, regardless of what goes down here, you still have to play the games.

    If they don’t get Santana and are going to give the young guys the shot, I have no problems with it.

    I’d rather go that route than give up too much for Santana.

    Giving up an ace-type 21 yr old starter, your starting CF, your CF of the future AND somebody else, is too much for Santana.

    If the Twins do a bad deal with the Sox, that’s their problem. Not the Yankees.

  200. ellen December 4th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    Nacho – umm, Wakefield? Schilling, the ancient one? Coco Crisp? Please!

  201. jashell2000 December 4th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    GreenBeret7

    Agreed, and I do hope that yanks stick with the plan of giving Moose that extra rest in 08 as he proved he can not do 200+ innings any more. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

    I still feel good without Santana in our rotation, what scares me is the bridge to Mo in the pen. We will not make it if we have to run auditions again during ’08. Makes no difference if we get quality starts from our rotation all around only to implode in the late innings. I’m not saying that will happen a lot during the reg. season since our offense is potent enough to expose shaking pens. But when playoffs start we are only playing the best rotations and pens in the AL (i.e. Angels) so holding a lead late is imperative. Mo is useless if we can’t get him the ball. Anyway, we HAVE to fix our pen (as well as get a true #1 starter) before the season starts…I think we have enough 2′s, 3′s and poetial #1′s go far.

  202. The_Kiid December 4th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

    Quintana put the drugs down please

  203. randy l. December 4th, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    “It’s obvious that their insistence means that they do think very highly of Hughes.”

    ” highly” is relative. the twins traded garza who had better mlb stats than hughes in 2007.
    i think they value hughes, but do not value him as the best prospect in the game as he was just last winter.

    i personally don’t know what to make of hughes. he never consistantly impressed me at the mlb level. he didn’t throw that hard or have much of an ability to keep his velocity late in a game . but he was also injured and he’s really young.

    i think the problem is trying to trade a player who’s been devalued in the league’s eyes.hughes’ value is not at it’s high right now. this just isn’t the time to have him be the centerpiece of a trade.

  204. zack December 4th, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    Quintana,
    actually go and look at their #s. Lester pitched just like he did before the sickness, as in, horrid control. Lowrie has been compared to Guillen by soxprospects.com, not exactly reputable. Masterson’s #s were awful, look at them. Again, getting your comp from soxprospects.com doesn’t mean jack…

  205. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    If anything Dice-K WILL improve. Hes too good not to…

    Or not.

  206. rodg12 December 4th, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    Looks like the Twins fans are already drinking the kool-aid that the BoSox offer is better than the Yanks. Unbelievable.

  207. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    Nacho
    December 4th, 2007 at 11:42 am
    Yes, the best team ever. Tell me a team that had a better rotation, complimented by a top-flight leadoff man, two of the best hitters (both power and average) in baseball in Manny & Ortiz, and a cast of other great role players in Lowell and Yukilis. Not to mention arguable the best closer in baseball and a more than solid bullpen. Tell me where I can find a hole in that team, and tell me a team that had a better pitching/hitting tandem
    ___________________________________________________
    It’s ok to be a fan of your team, but, it’s not smart to show your ignorance. How many Yankee teams would you like listed? There are dozens of other teams better than this Sox team, also.

  208. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    seriously, hank steinbrenner should learn that he’s still a baby faced executive and shut his mouth. He has no clue what he is doing and is making us look like idiots at every step of every process he has put himself in the center of (from A-Rod to Santana). I hope Cashman finds a way to regain the power he annexed from George and tells Hank to take his self imposed deadlines and shove it

    oh shut up !!!! do you seriously think this has to do w/ that ? Bill Smith is an idiot for making this deal,let him him be an idiot, and Hank actually put his foot down for the prospects, you think anyone wants to trade Philip Hughes and pay $150 MILLION + while the other team offers Jon freakin’ Lester and Coco F’n Crisp to combat it.

    Hank made me proud last night and still today I applaud his and Cash’s decision they are thinking depth w/ high ceiling prospects and I rather keep that than get FLEECED !!!

  209. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    # Billy Beane sees Dan Haren as equal in value to Johan Santana, all things considered. Over the next three years, that could be true – plus Haren is much more reasonable in terms of salary.
    # Beane’s focus is young pitching.
    # Beane doesn’t want Melky Cabrera from the Yankees. He wants a package starting with Phil Hughes and one of Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne.

    DAN HAREN ANYONE?

  210. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    i agree with SJ44, but i also think they should pull huhges now for good measure because the twins let the offer expire…

    Force bostons hand, Minny will not make a bad trade just to spite the yankees…

    LETS SEE IF THEO HAS THE ONIONS…

  211. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    To all panickers here this is part of Buster Olney’s take:

    ….Pettitte moved toward a decision late last week, until on Saturday, his agent, Randy Hendricks, sent Yankees general manager Brian Cashman an e-mail indicating that Pettitte would return for 2008 — at the same time that Cashman was fully engaged with the Minnesota Twins about a possible deal for Johan Santana.

    A coincidence? Ah, no. There was subtle work behind the scenes to get a commitment from the veteran left-hander, at a time when the Yankees were in a position of extraordinary need while talking with the Twins.

    The word from Pettitte that he is coming back provided the Yankees’ firmer ground to stand on as they dealt with the Twins, reduced their level of desperation and made it easier for them to turn down Minnesota’s requests for stronger prospects at the back end of their deal. Without Santana, the Yankees would go into next season with essentially the same rotation that they had in the second half of the 2007 season, in which they went 51-25.

  212. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    I am looking forward to when (provided the Twins really are Twinkies and do this deal with Boston) Cereal Boy turns out to be the best part of this deal and he is performing like he did in Boston.

    Lester isn’t going to be any kind of pitcher to build with. Funny, the Yankees are being told that none of the Three will amount to anything, yet these players that Boston is more than willing to drop are going to be superstars.

    That despite the fact that the hype on them doesn’t match their performance numbers. While the Yankee Kids HAVE the numbers to back it up at least in the minor leagues.

  213. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    I know some others have mentioned this before, but I don’t understand all the anger directed towards Hank Steinbrenner. Though all of us may be big fans of the sport, he’s got a couple legs up on us:

    1. He actually knows what the trade offers have been. We (and the media) have been speculating.

    2. He is a Steinbrenner! Maybe he hasn’t bneen directly involved in baseball operations over the past 3 decades – we simply don’t know what role he’s played. Well I don’t know, at least, since I don’t know what goes on in the Steinbrenner family. Do any of us?

    I’ve got to cut this short, but we’re getting angry at the man over things we DO NOT KNOW about. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. I was no fan of the way that Joe Torre was fired, but other than that, he’s done pretty well so far: Rodriguez is back (yeah, we can argue about how he came back all day, but he’s back), Posada is back, Mariano is back, and the Yanks still have prospects that most teams would kill for.

  214. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

    Every unbiased source rated Hughes the top prospect– not just pitching prospect– in baseball last March. Somehow he has been thrown under a bus a bit because of his injury and the time needed to re-build arm strength. But he was the best pitcher on the team in September and October, with his relief appearance for Clemens being spectacular under the season-being-on the line circumstances. Nobody unbiased would put him anywhere near Hughes today. That does not mean the future is totally predictable, but you have to go with the presently available data. And what really steams me is how the bosux pr machine has elevated laptops to willie mays staus. He is a young Crisp (fast, excellent defender, solid ba with no power to speak of), no more, no less.

  215. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    Also, SJ44, you’re right yet again. Very good points you make.

  216. dale baker December 4th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    roster-
    you left igawa and karstens out, they will get plenty of work in spring training, igawa b/c hes so expensive and karstens b/c he deserves a do-over after breaking his leg. And it doesnt matter who anybody likes to take the 3 open spots, they will fight it out in tampa.
    i’d love to see Santana front the rotation, but if not, in 2 or 3 years the yanks will have the upper hand pitching wise

  217. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    i will respect Hank if it turns out the deadline meant something..

  218. Corey December 4th, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    This is al a conspiracy. The truth is…Johan doesnt want to go to the Yankees because he’ll have to shave his goatee…..everyone knows this is the true reason why its falling apart.

  219. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    I’m still waiting to have somebody tell me what Hank has done wrong this off-season.

    Hired the best young manager in the game.

    Re-signed Arod, Posada and Rivera.

    Re-signed Molina. A quiet, but effective move.

    Got Pettitte back.

    What else do you want the guy to do?

    If you think his talking has had ANY impact on this deal, you are living in fantasyland.

    If the Twins want to take an inferior offer from the Red Sox, who are they hurting? They are hurting themselves more than the Yankees.

    They have to live with the results of giving away their ace.

    The Yankees need to hold firm. If its not good enough, that’s life.

    You don’t give up the entire system for one guy. With the way Smith has been working it, that’s what he wants from the Yankees.

    He may just talk himself out of the better deal. If he does, that’s life.

  220. RosterRooster December 4th, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    Maybe the Steinbrothers should give 30 Mill or so to the Dodgers to spend on santana. If it was allowed, it would definately be worth it for the Yankees to keep him from going to boston for that rediculous package.

  221. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    While the Yankees might say they are going to look at Haren, that isn’t going to become reality. He isn’t worth it and the Yankees know it. They also know Beane isn’t worth dealing with either.

  222. #9 December 4th, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    If Santana ends up in Boston, I can picture him giving up a lot of HRs over that Green Monster.

    Fenway is tough for lefties no matter how good they are.

  223. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    My gosh, I’m sorry for all this posting, but if we want to be angry, then let’s get angry at that trainer the Yanks had in spring training last year (that got canned). Under his watch, it seemed like the entire team was on the DL.

    If the Yanks had a better first couple of months this year, who knows what the rest of the season would have held? The Yankees won 94 games last season!!!

  224. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    It really is a crapshoot… i am 99 percent sure that Johan is going to have alot of good years ahead….

    But I am not going to give up on this upcoming season if we keep the kids…

    Both Joba and Hughes have top of the rotation stuff, i think wang could pitch even better with less pressure. Andy will probably tail off, but he will give us innings..

  225. Matt December 4th, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    Honestly who cares how Gagne turned out. They won the world series, and with santana the red sox are taking a step towards another title, while the yankees do nothing. I dont think its fair to compare Santana who has won 2 cyyoungs, to a guy like Gagne who came out of nowhere had a couple good seasons, and had major elbow surgery. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

    I love your blog Pete, but you cant use Gagne to justify the Yanks not getting Santana.

  226. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    The Marlins and Tigers are talking about a monster deal that would send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis over to the Tigers for Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, and others.

    foxsports

  227. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    Leaving aside the Santana mess for a minute…Is anybody else as curious as I am about Cashman’s mysterious allusion to “deals getting done that no one expects” during the Winter Meetings? I wonder if he was talking about deals he was working on for the Yanks or deals that other clubs were talking about?

  228. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    From mlbtraderumors:

    “Marlins/Tigers Cabrera/Willis Blockbuster

    Ken Rosenthal has an update with a whopper of a trade rumor.

    * The Marlins and Tigers are talking about a monster deal that would send Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis over to the Tigers for Andrew Miller, Cameron Maybin, and others. Dave Dombrowski has always worked well with the Marlins, his former team.
    * Rosenthal confirms Bob Dutton’s assertion – the Royals signing Jose Guillen may not stop them from getting Andruw Jones too.
    * The O’s are trying to move Ramon Hernandez. They could sign Michael Barrett if they move him, or else get Jeff Mathis or Mike Napoli from L.A. in a Tejada deal.
    * The Tribe hasn’t decided whether to trade Cliff Lee, though there’s been plenty of buzz so far.”

  229. RosterRooster December 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm

    Dale- very true. Although i dont see it happenening with those 2 guys, they will get a shot. What I’m more wondering though is, If/When one of the big 3 isnt in the rotation, will he be going to the Pen, or to AAA to get his innings up?

  230. Dan December 4th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Just want to let everyone know that my coverage of the meetings is up and running

    So, what do you think the Yankees would logically have to surrender for Bedard?

  231. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Totally off topic, but Cabrera seems to be taking his level of fitness seriously

    Cabrera, who was listed at 185 pounds when he was called up to the majors in 2003, played 2007 at about 255 pounds and made an NL-high 23 errors at third.

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-216153

  232. Jason December 4th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

    Billy Beane is delusional if he thinks the Yankees will trade Hughes AND Kennedy for Haren. Hughes should only be traded for ONE guy, and it looks like that deal is going to come off the table.

  233. mel December 4th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Did someone say that Lowrie is a better prospect than Jackson or Tabata? I must’ve overlooked Lowrie’s name on the TOP 50 Prospect list.

  234. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Dontrelle Willis doesn’t really impress me all that much anymore…

  235. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    I love it. Man, I love all the excuses you guys are making for Cashman & co… the twins are “trying to fleece the yankees”… and “Twins owner Polhad is something of a Yankees Hater”… the Red Sox “aren’t giving up any good prospects”.

    Jeez, these are all just excuses. What happened to Yankee fans being results-oriented??

    If the Saux get Santana, the focus of the questions should be on Hank’s stupid propensity for self-imposed deadlines. The focus should be on Cashman for not uping the offer w/ a good enough third prospect.

    Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Half of you guys are talking about Hughes in 2011-2013… are you serious?

  236. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:12 pm

    So, what do you think the Yankees would logically have to surrender for Bedard?

    Compromising pictures of the Orioles GM engaged with the Orioles owner in sordid behavior

  237. S.o.S.27 December 4th, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    Nacho,
    Best team ever? Even if Boston gets him,that doesnt guearantee anything.

    A couple of years ago it was said that our rotation of Johnson, Pavano, Mussina and I cant remember who else was considered one of the best rotation ever. How did that turn out.

    The games arent played on paper. Our team can hit any pitcher out there. Actually we hit those pitchers better than rookies.

    Ask Pedro whos his daddy.

    I DONT WANT SANTANA ANYMORE. Our staff is better this year than last. Santan is a luxury, not a must.Time to move on.

  238. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    I would not trade Hughes to get Santana. I would only trade him to keep him away from the bosux. Now that that attempt has been foiled, I console myself with the possibility that Santana is on the downward side of the bell curve. As others have noted, his record in the second half last year was 5-7. He gave up 33 HRs which is a lot. He was 0-5 vs. Cleveland and stopped throwing his slider last year. Now granted even if this is trure, a lesser Santana is still better than most, but it is something to think about.

  239. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    Dontrelle Willis will get destroyed in the AL.

  240. james December 4th, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    I don’t trade Hughes under any circumstances. But if the deal goes down for the Red Sox it shows the garbage the Yankees have to go threw to make a deal. They put Hughes in the deal to trump lester as Melkey trumps Coco and the deals never changed but for no other reason than anti Yankee bias it goes the Red Sox way. The Twins like every other team in baseball unless their dumping money cant make a deal with the Yankees with out trying to rape them.

  241. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    I thought Bedard already said he has zero desire to play for the Yanks? Besides, last I heard the Mets were close to getting him.

  242. saucy December 4th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    any chance the Marlins take Porcello from Detroit?

  243. Heath December 4th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    This reeks of retaliation on Boston’s part. A payback of sorts for getting snookered by Cashman last July in thinking the Yankees actually desired Gagne.
    In a way this is a moral victory for Boston with the Yankees having to reluctantly offer Hughes in a Santana deal.
    Don’t think for a minute that Boston wouldn’t like to have the players they had to use in the Texas deal now used in a Santana deal. Kason Gabbard, David Murphy, and Engel Beltre could have been used in at least part of the package that Boston has offered and in the process withdraw a name or two.
    This is a classic case of biting your nose to spite your face.
    Meantime, all is quiet on the Nashville front.

  244. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    jashell2000

    The bullpen will shake out ok.
    Rivera
    Ohlendorff
    Farnsworth (for now)
    Vizcaino (Yanks talking to him)
    Albaladejo

    NYY are looking at Marte and Affeldt
    Sanchez and Melancon by the ASB
    Britton and Edwar Ramirez

    are some of the pieces available.

  245. Justin December 4th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Everyone who thinks Santana is on the downside is just delusional. Please look at stats besides W/L.

    The only thing that happened last year was he gave up more HRs. His other rate stats were the same.

    It would be silly to say the Sox will suffer for getting him.

    Doesn’t mean we should sell the farm, but come on, folks, we’d have to acknolwedge that he does improve their team, and would improve ours.

  246. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Dontrelle is a good kid, i wonder what happened to him… I do remember him having a ton of complete games one year…

  247. Phil December 4th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    saucy,

    Porcello can’t be traded yet.

  248. UTILITYMAN December 4th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    Yankees need to make the deal with HORNE,HUGHES,AND CABRERA…..IF THE TWINKIES SAY NO…THEN WALK AWAY!!!!

  249. Doreen December 4th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    They won the world series, and with santana the red sox are taking a step towards another title, while the yankees do nothing.

    I wouldn’t call the serious negotiations the Yankees have been undertaking to try to obtain Santana for themselves “nothing.”

  250. gayle December 4th, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Hello Matt– Pete was not comparing Gagne to Santana. He was comparing the situation of doing something or not doing something with a named trade. Sometimes the trades you do not make are the ones that in the end are better for you.

  251. Flam December 4th, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Half of you guys are talking about Hughes in 2011-2013… are you serious?

    hUH???

  252. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Affeldt?! Please not Affeldt! Trade for Joakim Soria from the Royals and be done with it. (Won’t happen except for in my wildest dreams, of course!)

  253. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    According to Jayson Stark,

    “That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson.”

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3140668

    I’m glad Minnesota turned us down.

  254. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    When it comes to Dontrelle Willis, I can’t help but wonder about his forearm problems that he’s had. Could the problem actually be worse than he is letting on? Everyone is saying that he’s lost velocity (which is pretty unusual, considering he turns 26 next month) – is there a lingering injury in there?

  255. UTILITYMAN December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    I AGREE Willis will not do well in the American Lge……

  256. Paulie December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    Does anyone know what is Santana’s playoff record?

  257. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    The Twins anger me.

  258. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    PB in DC

    i agree with your statement..

    granted i am a twins fan..
    but all the talk in here is about the rotation in 2-3 years..

    the kids are prospects.. not all prospects pan out..

    heck, we scott baker.. he has been a top prospect for along time.. and he finally showed “signs” this year..
    garza was such a cant miss kid that we traded him..
    slowey is the next “radke”.. ill believe it when i see it..

    haren and bedard are going to cost more then santana would in terms of prospects.. even tho they are under contract..

    losing out on johan for a 20+ yr old kid doesnt make sense..
    atleast .. its something the yanks have never done before.. to turn down a 28yr old lefty with 2 cy youngs over a pitching prospect?

    but with that being said. im not ALL for the sox trade

  259. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    I’m sure Dontrelle’s crazy mechanics aren’t helping any “lingering injuries” he may have.

  260. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Paulie

    i believe johan is something like 1-4 in the playoffs

  261. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    huh, bite your nose?

  262. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    For those of you who are ready to throw away the 2008 season before it starts, I’d hold off.

    If the Yankees do NOTHING, they return the SAME team that went 51-25 the second half of the season.

    Not exactly chopped liver.

    Now add a full season of Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain and I’ll take my chances.

    Without Santana, this is still a very good team. Especially with Pettitte coming back.

    That said, something tells me this deal is still not done yet.

    If it was, there would have been an announcement.

    The “Twins looking at Lester’s medical records” leak was to push the Yankees.

    If I’m the Yankees, I don’t even take calls from the Twins today unless they are ready to make a deal.

    Absent that, tell Bill Smith to take that inferior offer and try to sell that to his fan base.

    There comes a time that even a team like the Yankees have to walk away.

  263. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    BWH,

    With his ridiculous mechanics I wouldn’t be surprised if he turned into a bucket of bones this season on.

  264. saucy December 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    thanks phil. not even as a PTBNL? i’d love to root for the kid, just not if he’s in detroit.

  265. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    I keep hearing that the mets are getting bedard…

    Logically – who are they going to offer for Bedard? If pelfry or humber did decent work in the majors they might have a chance… But they did more harm than good this year.. On the other hand, last year at this time, there reputation was much higher…

  266. Justin December 4th, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Paulie: He’s pitched okay in the playoffs, though had one bad game before he became a great pitcher. I’m not posting because it’s meaningless, esp in series with leaky bullpens and such.

    It’s not enough to say AHA We shouldnt get him because he’s not clutch!

  267. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Ahhh Chicago Dave beat me to it LOL

  268. Doreen December 4th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    Ike, if what you say is true, then it seems pretty clear to me that the Twins do not want to do a deal with the Yankees, period. And it has nothing to do with Hank Steinbrenner.

    Also, for all you Boston Conspiracy theorists out there, why can’t it just be as simple as, the Red Sox would love to have Santana in their rotation? They have the resources to get him, just as the Yankees do. You can bet your bottom dollar that the Yankees would be going after him even if they already had what looked like a set rotation. If you have the ability to do so, you always take this kind of opportunity. For both parties, getting Santana over the other guy is the gravy, not the purpose.

  269. berra8 December 4th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    now heyman is reporting that the twins have asked the red sox to prepare their best offer for santana with a package including lester. isn’t that what they’ve been doing? this is such bull. red sox are doing nothing and somehow take the lead for santana. interesting way to operate. wish i knew how to do that.

  270. randy l. December 4th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    “I’m still waiting to have somebody tell me what Hank has done wrong this off-season.”

    well, he’s spent an awful lot of money which makes up for his crudeness and foot in mouth disease, but i’m actually ok with how hank is fitting in to the yankee management. there’s a dysfunctional balance to his addition that seems to be working.

    the only thing i disagree with is that it’s the twins problem only if they do a bad deal with the red sox. it’s the yankees problem too, but there’s plenty of time to react to it. i wouldn’t be afraid to start the season with the starting staff the yankees have.

  271. kunaldo December 4th, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    Ike, that is ridiculous…if that doesnt get it done, what the heck does???i hope the twins win 1 game next year

  272. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    According to Jayson Stark,

    “That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson.”

    That is what the Twins wanted and the Yankees turned them down and rightfully so.

  273. REH December 4th, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    Hey, I live in Nashville, it’s a ridiculous hotel but it is ours (or it used to be until they started charging for parking for people to look at the Christimas lights).

    Billy Martin could have been fired, hired, and fired again in the time it takes you to find your way to the lobby(s).

    Nevertheless, welcome to Nashville.

  274. mel December 4th, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson.

    I don’t think they turned us down. I think we turned them down. The Yankees would never put this on the table.

  275. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    It would seem to me that Minnesota couldn’t get a better deal than that if true. Jayson Stark seems like a reliable source

  276. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    If Stark is correct, the I too am glad they didn’t make the deal. Now I hope they don’t go back on this walk away.

    I’m looking forward to watching Santana get rocked at Fenway by the Yankees. ;)

  277. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Ike, if that is true then the Twins truly are delusional. Hughes, Melky, Marquez and Horne or Jackson dwarfs the bosux offer. Hell, Marquez and Horne were the two best pitchers in the Eastern League (AA) last year. If I am the Twins, I take Hughes, Melky, Marquez and Jackson. Hey, Twins fans, if you don’t think that is a better offer than the bosux, go check out the top prospects lists. No comparison. But, again if true, it makes me feel better because they made their very best but sane offer. It really is Gagme all over again. Once the Rangers insisted on Hughes, there was no rational decision other than to say no.

  278. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Please, don’t compare Scott Baker with Hughes.

    The Yankees have two guys, Hughes and Santana, who lap any prospect in the Twins organization at this time.

    Ian Kennedy, although undervalued by fans who only look to radar gun readings to determine a pitchers value, is even better than Baker.

    If Stark is right, and the Twins turned that deal down, they are morons.

    That deal, an upgrade from previous Yankee offers, is MUCH better than the Sox offer. Its not even debatable.

    If the Twins don’t bite for that deal, they have no interest in doing business with the Yankees. If that’s the case, Hank/Cash are better off moving on.

  279. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Here’s a question that is about a year or so early… Does anyone know if Teixeira ever signed an extension with the Braves?

  280. Yanksrule57 December 4th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    SJ44,

    I’m still waiting to have somebody tell me what Hank has done wrong this off-season.

    I basically made the same points in a previous post. I for one like the job done by Hank so far. He is letting the baseball world know the Yanks will not be trifled with.

  281. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Pardon me, you’re right Mel. I read in haste, here’s the larger caption:

    “The Twins also spent much of Monday night exploring potential 3-for-1 and 4-for-1 trades with the Yankees — and getting shot down on all their proposals.

    According to baseball officials who were aware of those talks, the Twins initially asked for pitcher Ian Kennedy, along with pitcher Phil Hughes and outfielder Melky Cabrera.

    After being told Kennedy wasn’t available if Hughes was part of the deal, the Twins apparently proposed expanding the trade into a 4-for-1 swap, with players they considered to be lesser prospects than Kennedy. But the Yankees quickly rejected that pitch, too.

    That last proposal included Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson. ”

    My apologies to all.

  282. coney12 December 4th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Where’s Bobcat in all of this?

  283. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    Hughes, Cabrera, pitcher Jeff Marquez and either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson.

    It’s official the Twins have been watching too many Fellini movies.

  284. Wendall December 4th, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    Bill Smith has no particular axe to grind with the Yankees. All signs point to the fact that he’s just flat out dumb.

  285. Jake December 4th, 2007 at 12:28 pm

    Ken Rosenthal just said on the FSN radio network the deal between the Twins and Sox is done. Boston now has 72 hours to reach an greement with Santana. Crisp, Lester, Lowrie & Bowden for Santana.

    This is unfreakinbelievable!!!

  286. RosterRooster December 4th, 2007 at 12:28 pm

    BWH- I dont see why he would. He’s a boras Client, He wears #23(Donnies number) and he grew up in connecticut.

  287. mel December 4th, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    IKE,

    LOL. You had us in a tizzy! Take out Hughes and that’s a great deal for both sides.

  288. A-Point December 4th, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    According to one thing I read regarding Teixeira there was never going to be an extention deal offered to him by the Braves, as they felt the price was going to be too high. The trade was meant to give them a chance through next season.

    Who knows of course what will change between now and then though.

  289. GOTWINS! December 4th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    Please, don’t compare Scott Baker with Hughes.

    The Yankees have two guys, Hughes and Santana, who lap any prospect in the Twins organization at this time.

    yea. i wasnt comparing baker to hughes.. id compare baker to a kennedy perhaps..
    garza is more comparable to hughes.. i think hughes is perhaps better.. but garza rates as a top of the rotation guy..
    prospects are prospects.. thats all im saying..

    twins dont have any hitting prospects..
    but their minors are loaded with kids throwing 95+
    but again. they are kids, and you dont know what they turn into

  290. Brandon (Proud supporter of "ALEX BEING ALEX") December 4th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    I don’t think they turned us down. I think we turned them down. The Yankees would never put this on the table.

    w/ a spit to their face

  291. bottom line December 4th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

    If I’m Epstein and Lucchino and I’m picking the two most expendable players on my roster that might have momentary high value but I don’t really need, who do I pick. Yup, that’s right. Jon Lester and Coco Crisp.

    By the way, I believe the earlier poster who suggested Melky might be the problem in the deal could be right. Maybe Jackson should be offered instead — clearly you can’t offer both though.

  292. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    I’m surprised the Twins didn’t ask for Hughes/Joba/Wang and Tabata. I mean if they’re going to ask for ridiculous packages they should go all out with their proposals.

  293. Ike December 4th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    my bad Mel.

    I sort of scanned that article, that stood out. At least we got some interesting convo out of it :)

    In reaction, i’d have to say that Minnesota is being kind of unreasonable. I would walk away too. Santana’s great, but you could probably turn those prospects into more than one good player who will want 25mil per to play.

  294. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    again, keep in mind that any info you hear is being fed to us by the twins… There is too much of it… Too many leaks… Something does not seem right..

  295. mel December 4th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    Melky vs. Crisp?

    All I knows is that Crisp makes 10X what Melky does and he’s flexible as a switch hitter. But that’s o.k. we could use him for one more year.

  296. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:34 pm

    Well, Santa Claus and the world will know who’s been naughty or nice by Christmas. The Mitchell Report will be out in the open.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3140853

  297. BWH December 4th, 2007 at 12:34 pm

    I thought that he grew up in Maryland and his family are die-hard Orioles fans. I hope he didn’t spend too much time in Connecticut – the last “great” player from CT the Yanks signed has pitched exactly 111.11 innings over the past three years earning $395,550 per inning. Ugh.

  298. We Miss Paulie December 4th, 2007 at 12:34 pm

    Thanks SJ44, just when I’m on the ledge, you talk me off it.

  299. jashell2000 December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    GreenBeret7

    Yes the bullpen “could/should” work out, and I am REALLY hoping they do. Only time will tell. The down side is all of those names that you listed have been tried with the exception of Albadejo, Sanchez and Melancon. When the heat was on in the playoffs who could we REALLY trust in a 1 run game in the 8th? Joba. We can look at it from a million angles all day, but when it was time to get the ball to Mo to get the win there was NO other choice. So if we already know something works why change it? I guess that’s why Cashman and Girardi get paid the big bucks to make these decisions while the fans get to debate. Let’s hope they can find a reliable bridge to MO, so that Joba can do his thing every 5th day. Fun stuff.

  300. El Comaduce December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    Melky is not the problem… He is cheap, he can play right now… If anything, i thought he was a major chip considering the money issues of the twins…

  301. Chicago Dave December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    If Rosenthal is right, then the Red Sox did indeed get Santana for nothing. Hope the Twins fans enjoy the horse manure they’re getting! In the meantime, I’m still glad we didn’t budge. Bill Smith is a moron.

  302. raymagnetic December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    garza is more comparable to hughes.. i think hughes is perhaps better.. but garza rates as a top of the rotation guy..
    prospects are prospects.. thats all im saying..

    Hughes is perhaps better than Garza? Perhaps? Hughes is MUCH better than Garza. It’s not even CLOSE.

    Hughes as an 18-20 year old in the minors had an .86 WHIP. That is otherworldly.

  303. robo December 4th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    FEAR BASED DECISIONS NEVER WORK OUT. Adding more to the already good offer of Hughes/Melky/b-prospect is purely out of fear of Bosox landing Santana. Fear based desicions never work.

  304. Ice Age December 4th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    I used to be disgusted, now I am not amused… Why are the Red Sox getting Santana for spare parts (Lester is a spare part, Coco Crisp is a moron that tries to overdo everything in the outfield so it looks like he is doing more than hes actually accomplishing; kind of like when Torii Hunter fades back 10 feet into a wall for no apparent reason, and the other two guys…)

  305. Rpillai December 4th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    Jackson is a beast, the Yankees have made him untouchable and they are the pieces to the puzzle next year. How can they want Jackson and Horne and the BoSox are offering junk? Stay away from the Twins, let them get Jon Lester so we can beat him up next year and laugh at them.

  306. Hoffa December 4th, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    SJ44,

    I agree with your comments on Hank. I don’t see what he has supposedly done wrong since has taken control.

    It puzzels me that so many people on this blog keep referring to Hank as inexperianced or young.

    True, this is his first year as a top baseball executive, but he has been around this process most of his adult life. In fact, he was first anointed as George’s heir apparent back in 1985.

    Hank is also far from being young. He is 50 years old and has been a business executive for over 20 years.

  307. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    If that is the final deal, I want to hear from the Twins fans who came on here ripping Hank saying he was going to include Cano in the deal.

    Your GM just traded your franchise away for nothing.

    Have fun in that new stadium. It will be the only reason to go to Twins games.

  308. Kyle From CT December 4th, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    BWH

    Don’t ever associate Carl Pavano with the state of Connecticut. We’ve banned him from the state for life.

  309. Nick in SF December 4th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    Ice Age, are you suggesting that Santana wants to wear red socks?

  310. Rpillai December 4th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    Hughes gets knocked around because of a few MEDIOCRE (not even bad) starts in the majors in his rookie season after coming back from a grade 1 strain and a twisted ankle. Hughes when healthy can dominate and his career numbers in the minors prove it. I really want to see him work with Eiland next year. Billy Beane wants the moon and the stars for Haren, and I think Hughes can be Haren in 1-2 years, maybe even better.

    Keep it together cash!! Someone send them the message we don’t want anyone.

  311. Mike S. December 4th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    Apparently the Twins wanted Kennedy as the third man in the deal. When the Yanks balked, the Twins then wanted Horne AND Jackson. Bleep the Twins.

  312. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    jashell2000
    December 4th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
    GreenBeret7

    Yes the bullpen “could/should” work out, and I am REALLY hoping they do. Only time will tell. The down side is all of those names that you listed have been tried with the exception of Albadejo, Sanchez and Melancon. When the heat was on in the playoffs who could we REALLY trust in a 1 run game in the 8th? Joba. We can look at it from a million angles all day, but when it was time to get the ball to Mo to get the win there was NO other choice. So if we already know something works why change it? I guess that’s why Cashman and Girardi get paid the big bucks to make these decisions while the fans get to debate. Let’s hope they can find a reliable bridge to MO, so that Joba can do his thing every 5th day. Fun stuff.

    __________________________________________________
    As of this time, NYY aren’t going to be moving Chamberlain in and out of the rotation. He’ll be there to get his innings in. Albaladejo could be a real sleeper. He’s big, strong, throughs hard with control and only 25. Briton could never fight through all of the high priced bodies last year, and thery all throw alike. He had a great rookie year in Baltimore in 2006. Farnsworth is being set up for a trade.

  313. Bluescript December 4th, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    Wake up!
    Do you really think Yanks can compete with Boston with an absolute gurantee of 15-16 additional wins with realistic numbers being more like 18-21 wins????
    Santana won two cy young with average offense and won 15 games with very poor offense in ’07 (in his “off” year). Every year Santana is stuck with several loss/ND because Twins can’t score more than 2 runs. With the Yankees fire-power and larger park in NY (less HRs…one of the few Santana weaknesses), he could win the Cy-Young EVERY YEAR for the next 6 years even if Santana pitches his average for those years. He will also improve your ‘pen because he pitches into 7th almost every game….I doubt you will get that with Hughes/Kennedy for atleast 2-3 years…if ever. Besides, if any of these guys get really good in MN, Yanks can buy them back once Santana retires in 6 years.
    Overall, it is in best interest of Yankees (for the next 5-6 years) to pay the price for Santana rather than “gift-wrap” him to Boston.

  314. asburyboss December 4th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    where is rosenthal reporting that?

  315. G. Love December 4th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    Hold your breath everyone. Let’s see the Red Sox top Zito’s contract first with Johan’s extension. Nothing is done until they show Johan the most money a SP has ever gotten in the history of the game.

    As for the Twins, it’s sad how poorly they played this. The best 2 players in the Yankees and Red Sox package combined were Hughes and Melky.

    Peter Gammons must be curled up in Bill Smith’s ear telling him how Lester is really Pettitte, just without the actual track record and how Lowrie and Masterson are the next Arod and Clemens.

  316. YankeeGm December 4th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    anyone confirm the FOXsports thing?

  317. Bill December 4th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    If the yankees have decided the price was just too high, I guess I can live with that. Personally, if it took Hughes, Melky, & Jackson to get the deal done I would have ultimately relented. Jackson may turn out great and its a steep price but Santana is a truly special pitcher. The kind of guy you have to overpay for and you really can’t tell me that the Yankees won’t be able to figure out another plan for CF in the next few years if they traded AJ.

    That said, I like our youth and will enjoy rooting for these guys if they keep them all. It will be a tragic mistake though if they don’t pull the trigger on Santana, Boston gets him, and panic and deal a comparable package for Bedard or Haren. Those two are not even close to being in the same league as Santana. The Yankees don’t need more pitching depth. They are six deep this year and have some high ceiling guys in the low minors. I’m all for trading for a true elite starter that we can plug into the number 1 slot for the next five years, but there are maybe 6 or 7 guys that I would say with a lot of confidence will be better than Wang over the next five years and Santana is the only one that is currently available.

  318. YankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    i’m with sj44. i dont give up 2 major-league ready pitchers & our starting cf. this team is already better than last year’s since we’ll have sp’s ready to begin the season. imagine if we could wipe out the first month or two from last season — going .500 instead of 8 under? probably win the al east.
    i still think we get santana, but if not, there’s good reason, and i’m happy with that.
    he’s still phil franchise to me. his velocity will be back along with pin-point control. will he be santana? probably doesn’t have to be.

  319. Nick in SF December 4th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    Wha? The Red Sox with Santana are absolutely guaranteed to win 111 game with 117 more likely?

    What color is the sky in this magic world you live in?

  320. hmmm December 4th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    “Crisp, Lester, Lowrie & Bowden for Santana.”

    if this is true, the Yankees were right to reject Hughes, Melky, Horne/Jackson, Marquez.

    the Yankees package is simply not comparable.

    Hughes and Horne might be the 2 best pieces out of the 8 players. Melky is superior to Crisp given the money.

    the Sox are going to be really tough, but the Yankees have to do what they feel is right.

    it’s funny how everyone here bitched about them “caving” on Hughes, but now think the Yanks should have given significantly more than Hughes.

  321. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge December 4th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    Oh so lets just pack up for the next 5 years since the Yankees have no chance to win. GET REAL!!!

  322. kasey December 4th, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    1. “if the red sox get santana i’ll be laughing maniacally (sic).” why, rebecca? because they’ll have locked up the best pitcher in baseball in exchange for a package of guys who didn’t really have a place on the sox team anyway? bucholz makes lester expendable, ellsbury makes crisp expendable. lowrie and masterson are prospects they’ve been willing to part with from day one. how, exactly, does boston lose if they get santana without giving up ellsbury OR bucholz? this is a STEAL.

    2. “santana will be terrible at fenway.” no he won’t. he’ll be johan santana. i love that, just because it’s the red sox making the move, yanks fans talk themselves into thinking it’s a terrible move. guess what? boston won the world series twice in the last four years. they’re doing SOMETHING right over there.

    3. “i’ll take my chances with this team that went 71-25, etc.” yeah? how’d that turn out come october? you’ll take your chances that they’ll win 90-some games and the wildcard? okay. if that satisfies you. i’d like to see them go ahead and win the world series. hell, i’d settle for an ALDS at this point. i think we’ve seen enough of this offense to know what october means. as far as the pitching “upgrade,” you really think hughes, chamberlain and kennedy are going to stay healthy all year AND have plenty in the tank when october rolls around? please. that’s a joke. at best.

    4. “why do teams always want to screw the yankees?” because while theo epstein is refusing to comment on santana and saying bland stuff like “we’re always looking to improve our team,” the yankees have somebody from the steinbrenner family (be it george or one of his kids) spouting off. “our offer is the best, everyone tries to screw us, well not this time!” well, guess what? if boston gets santana for lester/crisp/lowrie/masterson, the yankees got SCREWED. the amount of hubris from the yankee front office is infuriating to other teams, and it has been for a while. that’s why boston got schilling for nothing and, if you think it had absolutely nothing to do with boston getting santana for a bunch of spare parts, you’re sorely mistaken.

    if the red sox have a rotation of santana and beckett, they’re nearly unbeatable barring injury. with that offense, forget it. and if you want to talk about prospects and future, bucholz is better than hughes. has been at every level so far. so, they’ve got two better starting pitchers than anyone in the yankees rotation and a rookie whose potential is greater than the vaunted phil hughes. the next few years suddenly don’t look so great.

    5. “nice to see the yankees refuse to panic.” right. just like how they didn’t panic over dice-k. much like this situation, the yankees made a reasonable offer and boston won out. THEN the panic set in. if you think hughes is safe because boston got santana, you’re an idiot. it’s that simple. hughes, cabrera and somebody (hell, it could end up being horne or kennedy) will get dealt to oakland for haren. then you lose your treasured prospects AND you get a lesser pitcher than santana. then who’s laughing? boston again.

    this is an awful day for the yankees.

  323. Rafael December 4th, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    This is Rob Neyer on Jon Lester:
    “Lester’s still young, and his record in the minors was excellent. I consider him a solid prospect, B+ or A-. Of course, most of those guys don’t win 100 games in the majors… ”

    Jed Lowrie:
    “Limited power? Really? In the high minors this year, the guy finished with 68 long hits in 133 games. Tell me what I’m missing, and I’ll issue an immediate retraction.”

  324. RedSoxRooter December 4th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    gooooot to stop cherrypicking the Sox prospect’s stats. Lowrie had an .911 AA OPS and .862 AAA OPS in 2007. The AVG peter cited was in 98 AB in the Arizona Fall League. Masterson had a 3.28 K:BB and 1:1 SO/IP in AA. You know, getting Santana and having the best rotation in the history of baseball will be fun, but it will also be nice to know we didn’t give the Twins NOTHING to get it. Although if the Twins insist the Sox pay Coco it would probably be fair as well.

  325. GL December 4th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    This deal is NOT happening unless the Twinkies are stupider than they look. Stranger things have happened but this smells like posturing. And of course, most of this is being orchestrated through the Yankee-hating, Sox-loving ESPN. Where is Peter Gammons or Steve Philips? Probably discussing how smart the Sox are…

  326. mel December 4th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Hey SJ44,

    Can you join us on the next thread?

    Thanks.

    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/200.....ent-216242

  327. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    Bluescript
    December 4th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
    Wake up!
    Do you really think Yanks can compete with Boston with an absolute gurantee of 15-16 additional wins with realistic numbers being more like 18-21 wins????
    Santana won two cy young with average offense and won 15 games with very poor offense in ‘07 (in his “off” year). Every year Santana is stuck with several loss/ND because Twins can’t score more than 2 runs. With the Yankees fire-power and larger park in NY (less HRs…one of the few Santana weaknesses), he could win the Cy-Young EVERY YEAR for the next 6 years even if Santana pitches his average for those years. He will also improve your ‘pen because he pitches into 7th almost every game….I doubt you will get that with Hughes/Kennedy for atleast 2-3 years…if ever. Besides, if any of these guys get really good in MN, Yanks can buy them back once Santana retires in 6 years.
    Overall, it is in best interest of Yankees (for the next 5-6 years) to pay the price for Santana rather than “gift-wrap” him to Boston.

    ___________________________________________________
    At best, the 18-21 wins you think that Santana will give you only replaces Wakefield’s 17. Best hope that others like Schilling doesn’t slip any farther, or, that Ramirez isn’t starting his fade. If that happens, your offense is in trouble, because Ortiz will never see another pitch.

  328. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    Hmmm,

    Agreed. The Yankees can’t give up their starting CF, their future CF, their #1A prospect AND more to get Santana.

    Especially when you look at the Red Sox offer. Its not even in the ballpark.

    The Twins screwed themselves here. They played the Yankees so much, they walked away and may end up dealing their franchise player for nothing.

    Bowden and Masterson are nothing special. I have seen both pitch. The Yankees have better prospects than those two.

    Lowrie? Good prospect. Coco is not a better player than Melky.

    Lester is good, he’s not Hughes.

    I give the Yankees credit. It has to hurt them if he goes to Boston. However, for the betterment of the entire franchise, they are smart not to have caved in on the Twins ridiculous demands.

    When you demand the world and settle for a small city block, you aren’t doing a good job.

    Bill Smith really spit the bit on the this one if this is the deal that gets done.

    Don’t feel sorry for the Yankees. They will be fine. They can concentrate on improving other areas of the team and I’ll gladly take my chances with the younger arms.

  329. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    The only thing you need to know about the inequity here is at the outset of negotiations the Twins asked hor Hughes and Melky from us and Laptopos and Buchholz from the bosux. We offered both, and the bosux are getting Santana while giving up neither. Who is this guy, Smith, anyway? Any criticism of Cash or Hank is way off the mark when you just consider this. And please spare me th Gammons?Neyer drivel about how the bosux were “creative” I don’t usually subscribe to anti- Yankee conspiracy theories, but this sure as hell makes you wonder.

  330. SJ44 December 4th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    Kasey,

    Hank Steinbrenner’s comments don’t impact a deal.

    If the Twins want to take a lesser package, that’s on them.

    Nobody is that sensitive in baseball.

  331. PB in DC December 4th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    For those of you who are mad that the Yankees didn’t get the deal done (if the reports are true on the Sux/Twinkies deal), you guys are directing your anger in the wrong directions, which seems to be at the twins and at the package of players the Sux are giving up.

    First, I love the opinion that the Twins organization is somehow out to fleece the Yankees or the Twins owner is a “yankee hater”. Boys, this is business… baseball is the business of $$ and winning. Period. These conspiracies are delusional and are made up by bitter fans of the (apparent) losing bidder.

    Second, directing your anger that the Sux are “giving up spare parts” or “are giving nothing up”. Then the bashing of Lester and Masterson et al… hmmmmmm, with all due respect to all of our opinions, but I think the execs at the Yankees, Red Sox and Twins have a slightly better grasp of the values of the players in the deal.

    Which brings me to the exact place where all of our anger should be directed:

    Hank and Cash are the ones to blame (if you’re mad the trade didn’t happen, if the trade w/ the Twins/Sux is true).

    What happened to results-orientated Yankee fans? Do we want to win or “wait until next year”?

  332. Rpillai December 4th, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    RedSoxRooter wrote:
    “December 4th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
    gooooot to stop cherrypicking the Sox prospect’s stats. Lowrie had an .911 AA OPS and .862 AAA OPS in 2007. The AVG peter cited was in 98 AB in the Arizona Fall League. Masterson had a 3.28 K:BB and 1:1 SO/IP in AA. You know, getting Santana and having the best rotation in the history of baseball will be fun, but it will also be nice to know we didn’t give the Twins NOTHING to get it. Although if the Twins insist the Sox pay Coco it would probably be fair as well.”

    First its pretty sad your on a Yankee blog, Red Sox fans have the Yankees on their minds every night of the week even after they won a ring. Lowrie isn’t Austin Jackson, and Masterson isn’t Alan Horne. You have to be damn near brain dead to put think thats equal. Yankees offered the best pitching prospect in the game, one of the top defensive centerfielders in the game and a lesser prospect. And its fair to say how solid Melky’s approach is in hitting when you look at his age.

    You guys can have Santana but you should be aware that there is a discrepancy when they ask the Yankees for much more than what they are getting from the Sox.

  333. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    The Yankees have better prospects than Bowden and Masterson not even mentioned in these trade talks.

  334. GreenBeret7 December 4th, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    as of 12:54 PM in his live blog is not reporting anything about Santana to the Sox. If I missed something let me know

  335. Reality Check December 4th, 2007 at 1:00 pm

    And remember, Melky is 1-2 years younger than Laptops. So who knows what his upside may be.

  336. Dan from Mass December 4th, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    It would suck if the Sox got Santana for that package, but there’s nothing the Yanks can do about that. Their package was plenty good. The Yanks would REALLY lose if they turn around and offer that package (or something similar) for someone like Dan Haren. I would much rather see what Hughes can do then lose him, Melky, and more for Haren.

  337. NYY December 4th, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    Lefty who gave up 33 dingers last year is not the same weapon for the Sox with that Green Monster in left as he is in the Stadium.

    Didn’t Beckett give up like 36 dingers pitching home games at Fenway? Good pitchers make adjustments and that’s what Beckett did in 2007. If 33 dingers in Santana’s case is the problem I think he will pitch better in 2008.

    15-13 3.33 ERA with 235 Ks in an Off year is pretty good for me. If he pitches like he did last year and doesn’t get any better then with the Sox/Yanks offense he could easily win 20 games.

    By the way Santana is 2-0 at Yankee Stadium with a filthy 1.17 ERA. Something to think abt.

  338. PittsburghYankeeFan December 4th, 2007 at 1:08 pm

    OK. Time to talk real turkey here (as in this proposed Red Sox-Twins Santana trade).

    I may know something about baseball, but one thing I know a lot (a real lot) more about is cancer.

    Lester is one year out from a diagnosis of diffuse large cell lymphoma. I feel great for him and I hope he never relapses from his disease, and has a great pro career.

    Unfortuately, the 5 year relapse rate from this disease is 40-50%. How can the Twins NOT know that? So you get the guy, and he has a 50% chance of being out for his career within the next 5 years. Twins fans, be sure you pound this fact over the head of Bill Smith. This is business, and you have to think with your head.

    That being said, the rest of this deal?

    Ellsbury = Cabrera. we can all point to 33 games of Melky’s and show a great average.

    Masterson = Marquez or Horne.

    Lowrie? .167 in the AZ league? Yanks have an expendable Alberto Gonzalez who likely is better.

    I just don’t see this going down, but if it does, the Twins were shafted.

  339. Bluescript December 4th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    GreenBeret7
    December 4th, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    Bluescript
    December 4th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
    Wake up!
    Do you really think Yanks can compete with Boston with an absolute gurantee of 15-16 additional wins with realistic numbers being more like 18-21 wins????
    Santana won two cy young with average….
    __________________________________________
    At best, the 18-21 wins you think that Santana will give you only replaces Wakefield’s 17. Best hope that others like Schilling doesn’t slip any farther, or, that Ramirez isn’t starting his fade. If that happens, your offense is in trouble, because Ortiz will never see another pitch.
    ___________________________________________________

    You support my point. Yankees hope for title comes down to the number of Sox pitchers and players not having good or even average years (you state lots of ifs…). Look how consistent Santana is in terms of his ERA, Ks, and Innings Pitched over the last several years. 15 win (with 3.33 ERA) is considered a BAD year for Santana?!. Another words, even if Schilling falls off the cliff and Wakefield has his average 12-14 win season, Boston will likely win more games with Santana in 08 than they did in 07 (even with some loss of offense). Now, if Yanks want to follow Boston’s fumes for the next 2-3 years…..

  340. Matt Waters December 4th, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    Watching Jed Lowrie attempt to play shortstop on astro turf is going to be really hilarious. This is why I couldn’t be a MLB GM. If I were Cash, I’d be brawling with Smith at the hotel bar. What a horrendous job by him. How do you trade Johan Santana to the Red Sox and somehow fail to get Buccholz or Ellsbury? He didn’t get either! How is that possible? How mad would you be if you were a Twin fan? And for the guy comparing Jon Lester to Ian Kennedy… that’s just hilarious… Jon Lester has absolutely no command… he’s a consummate five-inning pitcher who hung in long enough to build a favorable record due entirely to the team he plays for… Wow.

  341. Quintana December 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm

    Zack,

    Why so bitter, Man? Sox fans, just like Yanks fans, are guilty of overrating their prospects.

    That being said, Lester does have great potential. I have watched him in person many times. Command is the last hurdle for him to clear. And yes, last offseason slowed his progress. Battling cancer takes away from your season preparation.

    Crisp is a tremendous CF’er. Put his speed and D in that lineup, he improves the team. With Morneau, Mauer and Young in the middle of the order, they can afford to have a lighter hitting D stud in CF.

    Lowrie is an extra base hit machine. I have seen him in person, also, and his D at short is underrated. I would prefer him at 2nd, but he’d do at SS. His gap power and OBP would be ideal in front of the Minny big 3.

    Masterson is a dominating sinkerballer. He started out slowly in Lancaster last year (a hitter’s paradise), but he recovered to be absolutely dominating before suffering an injury at season’s end. Minny will LOVE this guy in the next year or 2.

    PS- keep an eye on Ryan Khalish. Scouts are predicting him to be betetr than Ellsbury in a few years. His #’s last year were amazing.

  342. marc December 4th, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    How can these clowns at FAN announce “breaking new” w/Murti
    at 1:30 when this is old news already.

  343. no.27 December 4th, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    What a homer Peter Gammons is.

    He just said he’d take Lester over Jed Weaver.

    In 284 MLB innings Weaver has put up a 3.33 ERA, 220K, 78W, and 32 HR.

    In 144 MLB innings, Lester has put up a 4.68 ERA, 110K, 74W, and 17 HR.

    Weaver is a little over a year older than Lester.

    What the hell is going on in baseball?
    What is it that people have seen in Lester that I have missed?
    WTF?

  344. rob December 4th, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    the yankees agreeing to this deal would be stupid. keep the kids and let’s watch them grow up. move ca$hmoney up! we’ve all seen how expensive garbage starters have been on the FA market, we have 3 young kids that are better than anyone available as a FA. Santana is good but not worth losing a proven prospect with great upside and a budding outfielder who seemed to give spark to the team last year. I want to see “The Three” this spring…maybe even horne?

  345. darth daddy December 4th, 2007 at 10:36 pm

    i am w/ u pittsburgh yank fan. the twinkies would have to be absolute idiots to make a trade for a guy recently “cured” from a disease w/ such a high relapse rate. they should seek out the advice/counsel from their staff of medical professionals, and i do not mean their orthopaedists or family practitioners who happen to do sports medicine. it is a bluff. you still have to play the games i say. no biggie. we shall see what happens. BTW, i absolutely LUV the insecure redsux homers who log on to the yankee blogs despite their team having won the WS 2x in 4y. get a life. revel in your team. do not worry about the yanks so much.

  346. darth daddy December 4th, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    crisp a “tremendous CF’er”? wow. i want some of what u are taking Q. to hear sux fans talk about it, i would not have thought to use the word tremendous. i would have thought to substitute the word horrendous actually. good defense but soso offense.

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    Idetrorce

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