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If you’re in Manhattan tomorrow, Joba Chamberlain will be making a charity appearance at Modell’s Sporting Goods in Times Square at 1 p.m. It’s on West 42nd between 7th and 8th Aves.
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on Wednesday, December 5th, 2007 at 11:47 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings joined the The Journal News in October 2009, having spent the better part of seven years covering baseball in Scranton, PA. He is a graduate of the University of Missouri and an award-winning beat reporter and features writer. E-mail me at cjennings@lohud.com
Sam Borden is an award-winning journalist who joined The Journal News
and LoHud.com in January 2008. He covered the Yankees for the New York
Daily News from 2004-06, and has also worked as a columnist for the
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NEXT!
Is there a time range?
If anyone is interested, I’ll be in my office tomorrow.
Yea what time.
I’m there!! Just a hope skip and jump from my office.
Will he be signing autographs?
I love it…Keith Law at ESPN reports that the Twins are reaching out to other teams to get back in to the trade talks for Johan Santana. Haha! Apparently he is realizing that the Boston package is inferior the Yankees and thus is looking for more somewhere else.
I don’t really take too much of what ESPN says to heart, but this news is good news.
If the Twins indeed ship out Santana, I hope he lands in the NL even if with the Mets.
Read the post it says 1PM. Me I will try an avoid that area as much as possible it is bad enough where I am (office is 49th and 7th) with all of the crazy tourists who walk around with their head looking at the sky like there is something to see up there instead of looking in front of them so they walk in a straight line and dont run into people.
He wrote 1 pm in the post. Why ask what time…?
hopefully they’ll just keep him and he’ll hit the FA market next year. Doubtful considering the level of talent we were offering compared to two draft picks, but who knows.
And here is something else for all JOba fans/This from Neil Best’s Watchdog colum and the Mike and Mike he refers to is from ESPN Radio morning show
So here’s an item about “Mike and Mike.” The boys will be at Penn Station Friday morning doing a special holiday food-raiser show. Joba Chamberlain is scheduled to be there at 8 a.m.
Rumors are flying today the Red Sox pulled Lester from the deal.
Its causing the Twins to seek other offers.
As I said the other day, Bill Smith overplayed his hand here.
Once he got the Yankees to add Hughes to the deal, he should have pulled the trigger. Not doing so cost him bigtime because there is not a single player in any of these rumored deals as good as Phil Hughes.
Its probably why Law, Gammons, Stark and Olney all believe Santana to the Red Sox isn’t going to happen.
ChrisNY,
I agree.
It will be intersting to see where he goes. Reports say that the Red Sox are now ‘ambivalent’. They probably achieved their primary goal in getting the Yankees out of it. Is it bait to try and re-engage the Yankees or will the Sox really drop out.
The Twins are now recruiting the Mets, Angels, and some other team.
But if 25-30 (or however many) players across baseball have clauses for one otherwise insignificant vote in their contracts, that could potentially sway who wins.
And I’m sure to BBWAA folks, it has something to do with maintaining an ethical standard in their own field.
One other thing I forgot to add. Evidently, the fans and media are not happy in Minnesota with the Boston offer. Further adding to Smith’s dilemma.
As each hour passes, it looks like he is staying in Minnesota, at least for now.
This is great I work on 42nd and 7th >:)
Oooops .. thought I was in the previous thread. Sorry.
Where’s PB in DC? First he accuses me of posting false info, now is nowhere to be found. Typical DC ‘hillrat.’
Gayle do you know which part of Penn Station? I guess I need to leave early tomorrow.
SJ44,
I agree, though I still am not ready to count out the Sox. They know what getting Santana means, they just don’t know if they are willing to shell out the money and prospects.
Where did you read that they “pulled” Lester from the table?
I think Santana is going to play out his contract in MN and hit free agency. If not, he’ll get dealt at the deadline at which point the Twins will probably have made another effort to resign him.
Being all Santana all the time…
I am not surprised by this latest move. Despite Theo being “the all knowing and all caring” who will be flexible, the deal they were offering was less than the Yankees deal.
Think about it, Hank was called all kinds of names for putting on a deadline, yet here is Smith going around begging other teams now to enter the bidding for Santana. I think the Yankees played this right. They didn’t see him as an absolutely must have for the cost and they saw that Smith was delusional about his bargaining tactics.
As to Pete’s post… I bet if Joba shows up there will be midges, cold and all.
Okay check out there site and saw this. Location: Amtrak Level – New York Pennsylvania Station
Where is that?
I don’t get what the problem is all this century most of us Yankee fans have been pissed at the Gary Sheffield’s , MAtsui’s , Giambi’s , Javy Vasquez’s, here people argue why the Yankees didn’t keep Nick Johnson, Ted Lilly heck even Marcus Thames , here we have a new regime
WHO IS DOING JUST THAT !!!!!!!
I like the fact that Philip Hughes stays or the Robi Cano’s aren’t even on the table, they actually give a DAMN about Action Jackson which when you see him oh watch the 180 the media will do on not letting him go. I would love to have Johan Santana but when the price is ridiculous I like what Hank did he handicapped Minny from getting a better package right now, is Boston in this thing nobody knows but if the Angels were his comments made them fall back, because if we reject the package request usually alot of teams follow.
P.S. HANK TALK TILL YOUR VOICE BOX GETS SORE
8th Avenue side (NJ Transit / Amtrak)
I would love nothing more than to see him stay in MN this year. If Boston is really pulling back on their weak offer, maybe Smith will realize his best bet is to take the 2 draft picks next year. Or, maybe we’ll swoop in and grab him for less than we offered the first time. Maybe Boston’s attempts to get us to up our offer will backfire and we’ll end up getting him for what we originally wanted (Hughes off table, IPK centerpiece…).
I meant originally wanted or less… our original offer wouldn’t be a backfire for Boston, just no impact.
Jason Stark on 1050 reporting that it looks like the Santana/Sox deal is blowing up. He thinks that Sox were only in it to tweak the Yankees.
But, but, they reserved the Opryland Grand Ballroom!
O.K. who looks worse? Hank or Theo?
SJ, et al.
If it is true that BOS pulled Lester, I would laugh my arse off. Especially after Head Red Sox Shill Gammons has been all over ESPN stating, in no uncertain terms, that Theo would never do such a thing. Gammons: “Theo ALWAYS operates in good faith and he would never take a player off of the table like that.”
Either Gammons got played, or he has no business presenting himself as an impartial journalist.
Seems as if Bill Smith greatly overplayed his hand and is facing the consecuences. Where are all the panicers that wanted us to throw everyone in the deal.
“You can’t stop this trade because of Kennedy”
“You can’t stop this trade because of Horne”
“You can’t stop this trade because of Jackson.”
If it were up to some of the people here we would be out three startins pitchers, two centerfielders and a partridge in a pear tree.
mel,
Theo looks great. He prevented the Yankees from getting Santana…for now at least.
I don’t think Hank looks bad at all and while he might have opened his trap more than necessary, I think he should be commended as far as listening to Cashman goes.
rbizzler,
Maybe the Sox killed the deal because they didn’t want to rework Beckett’s contract like Gammons said they’d have to. Still lol @ that one.
If Boston doesn’t land Johan, I can stomach us not getting him a little easier.
I said from day one that they didn’t want to spend the money. I think the sticker shock and what this means to their organization’s payroll in the future is what will stop them from making the deal. Paying Johan what he wants (or close to it) will have a ripple effect in an organization with young pitchers looking to cash in, in the future.
And anyway, why shouldn’t they pull Lester back? They have no competition for the guy due to the way Smith is bungling this negotiation.
The only columnist in America who will write the Twins got a great deal from the Red Sox is Gammons and we all know why that is.
I’m glad that the rest of the media isn’t perpetuating the myth that the Boston package w/o Ellsbury and Bucholtz is a fair equitable deal.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Omar doesn’t back up the truck now and get him with a lesser package than what the Yankees had offered and were willing to deal at the time.
Jennifer
Pete said 42nd Street, That’s 9 blocks north of Penn Station
“But, but, they reserved the Opryland Grand Ballroom!”
Good one!!!
Boston and New York also probably realize that the process might be a hell of a lot easier next offseason when Johan is a free agent.
For the Yankees, Moose and Giambi will both come off the books and they’d lose draft picks.
Doesn’t Manny’s contract end after 2008? Or is it 2009?
I just don’t care anymore, wish it would get resolved once and for all.
Bill Smith has tiny little balls.
Jennifer,
Penn Station is where Madison Square Garden is. It’s right underneath it.
Theo looked great when he acquired Gagne at the deadline. That move wasn’t exactly responisble for them winning.
Jake,
That may be true. But if the Yankees REALLY wanted Santana today, they’d go get him. They’re taking their chances that he’ll be available via free agency.
Who’s more relieved if it falls apart? The Yankees, the Sox, or Santana? He had to have known that the odds of getting any type of jackpot contract with the Sox was slim at best.
I still say that Theo looks bad for dealing in bad faith, if that’s the case. Everyone except for a few Sox fan here saw it from the beginning.
Mike R.,
I know its painful to hear anything positive about Theo Epstein on a Yankee blog, but come on now.
You’re right about Gagne though.
People should also be wary about buying in to this notion that Boston’s offer is off the table. Sounds like a ploy to get the Yankees back in the fold.
Peter Gammons stopped being a journalist about 4 years ago.
These days, he is now just a shill for Theo and the Red Sox.
Its a shame because his Sunday Boston Globe column was a must read for years.
This new Red Sox ownership, smartly, brought him in as an unpaid shill/consultant, insuring they will always get good PR on ESPN.
Its why, at this point of his career, ANYTHING he says re: the Red Sox or Yankees should be taken with a grain of salt.
As I said yesterday, paying a pitcher 25 million a year for 6-7 years goes against the Red Sox gameplan.
Talking about doing it and doing it are two different deals.
It will be interesting to see if they do go through with the deal. Personally, I don’t think they will.
If they don’t, Smith blew this bigtime. He could have had Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera, two pretty strong pieces to get back for a guy who is gone after the 2008 season.
Not smart on Smith’s part. Rookie mistakes cost him in this proposed transaction.
The Angels aren’t doing this deal. Nor are the Dodgers.
The Dodgers will put their chips (if they use them at all) in an Eric Bedard deal. It makes more sense from a fiscal standpoint for the Dodgers to go that route.
If Pete says we won’t get Johan,,,,start ordering NYY Santana Jerseys NOW !
I hope Bill Smith doesn’t show up here and pull a Borat/Pam Anderson job on Joba. That would just royally suck.
Speaking of Gammons:
12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don’t expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.
SJ44,
It seems to me that after Gammons came back from his stroke he stopped even trying to be impartial. Does that sound right to you? Although, he is complimentary of the players themselves, ahem, Joba. Would that be considered tampering? lol.
ESPN is really doing a shoddy job with their winter meeting blog.
Pat someone mentioned that Joba was going to be there at 8am. I know where Penn Station is
Heck I work right near it. I just didn’t know where the Amtrack portion is, since whenever I go in there I go to NJ transit or LIRR.
SJ44,
Well put.
Gammons used to be my favorite read. Diamond Notes were flawless and enjoyable to read. The man had a knack for keeping his ear to the ground and getting legit info.
He was also unbiased.
I stopped reading Gammons about 3 or 4 years ago when he started losing his marbles and inserting punk rock lyrics in to his columns EVERY other paragraph. I tried to understand his reasons for doing so, but ended up drawing the conclusion that he was aging faster than he realized.
He is a closet Sox affiliate, always has loved Boston, and that is fine and dandy. Just stop pretending to be unbiased.
Do you all remember how giddy he was when the Sox “traded” for Alex Rodriguez and then how bitter he was when the deal fell through? Then he goes to the Yankees and Gammons is indifferent. Toolbox.
Useless, yet impressive info. thanks espn
How friggin’ great was babe Ruth?
He was not only the greatest hitter in his day, but as good a pitcher as Santana
Win% W-L
Johan Santana .679 93-44
Babe Ruth .671 94-46
“Theo looks great. He prevented the Yankees from getting Santana…for now at least.”
and what if the Yankees sign him next year?
then Theo may have “prevented” the yankees from giving up Hughes for a player they get anyway.
but who knows? lots of ink yet to be spilled on this topic.
I think Mr Smith will give the Yanks one more call.Maybe he will be stupid enought to offer Nathan with Santana. Do we bite?
Just in case it got lost in the blogging:
12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don’t expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.
While Theo might have looked pretty good in getting Gagne, the results were a bit underwhelming.
I think Hank read the situation with the Twins perfectly. He saw the new GM Smith was thinking he had the world by the balls, he was giddy with anticipation over playing the Yankees and Red Sox against each other, especially when the Yankees were willing to give up Hughes.
Smith looks like a weinner now, other GM are not dealing with him.
Of course there is always the chance that he pulls something off, but if the reports about the Sox changing their offer is true, then it shows that the Sox had no intention of doing this deal. The delay with the additional negotiations were meant as a smokescreen to cover up that they were only in it to drive up the Yankee’s offering.
Theo looks like a shmuck with all this, despite his tool Gammons. If they pulled Lester off the dealing table then it also shows Gammons up to be the fool.
The Twins would be stupid to not trade him at this point though. What’s the point of letting him become a FA and getting nothing from him?
Santana already told them he wants to be traded now.
hmmm,
Exactly. Right now Theo may have completed his goal.
Next offseason, who knows.
Maybe Theo and Cash both expect the asking price to drop and will attempt to pounce midseason. Maybe not.
My guess is free agency.
Bill Smith likes to “pet” small, young boys.
Doug
December 5th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
I think Mr Smith will give the Yanks one more call.Maybe he will be stupid enought to offer Nathan with Santana. Do we bite?
.
*we CHOMP !!!*
Yankee Jay:
Dead Ball.
Just read that Rios might be going to s.f. for Lincecum. If the deal is done, you have to consider the Jays to have one of the best rotations in baseball. This division accept for Baltimore seems to be loaded with deep staffs now. It will be fun to see how this all pans out.
Thank god we have the best offense in the league.We will definately need it.
With great pain I admit that Theo is a very good GM. I would not say that Cashman is a better GM than him. I consider them to be on par. My problem is judging trades before their time.
I don’t think that Theo is a bonehead if he doesn’t get a deal done, but I don’t think he is a genius for it either.
Bill,
But didn’t Santana’s agent refute the media’s claim that Santana said he wouldn’t be open to a trade mid-season?
Maybe I misread it.
They will get draft picks if he leaves via free agency. However valuable that is will be left to the eye of the beholder.
ACtually, the Jays seem more intereted in Cain because they feel Linecum has durability issues.
Mike R.,
Totally agree.
Rios isn’t getting traded either. JP Riccardi is leaving the meetings early (perhaps tonight). The Blue Jays are also standing pat for now.
“Bill Smith has tiny little balls.”
Funniest thing I’ve heard/read all week…
So the question is, if this Boston deal falls apart, do we swoop back in with an IPK headlined package or just leave it alone and wait till next year? And I me “do we” meaning “will the Yankees,” not “should the Yankees…”
Looks like there won’t be any Santana deals this winter.
I have a hunch that both Minnesota and Boston have cold feet on their deal. In Boston’s case, they’ve crunched the numbers and see how Santana money can have a domino affect toward contracts in the immediate years.
Minnesota fans want value for losing their top pitcher and don’t see it with the current offer. Bill Smith has egg on his face for allowing the Yankees to withdraw. Boston is content with seeing the Yankees bow out. Smith is the ultimate loser for overplaying his hand and underestimating the wrath of the Yankees.
I can’t believe the Giants are willing to trade Lincecum OR Cain.
The Yankees should be in on that if anything. Cain more than Lincecum, but could’t Lincecum be a solid set up man like Joba was?
Not sure what the asking price is. If they want Rios from Toronto, they want Hughes and Melky from the Yankees. Not worth it.
where are fleas and the other resident scholars to illuminate on this situation???
I would make a trade with Minny if they came back begging but Hughes is not in the trade….
There are very very few teams willing to ante up to get Santana.. the cost in $’s and players is huge..
Detroit did there deal because Cabrera is 24 and a position player, much lower risk on injury and reductio in performance.. But in this case Detroit over there last few trades have decimated there minors based on what I have read… Also Miller and Maybin are huge upside guys…..
Detroit has a over 30 yr old player at every position except CF…Check it out they make the Yanks look young!!!!!!
Update:
As you can imagine, I don’t have a lot of time this week, but I thought I’d at least post an update, and some of it may be what I’ve said before, and some of it may disappoint:
1) Remember: you read what you are supposed to read. This week is National False Information Week. We’ve seen that from every team.
2) The REAL trades are going on in the background and aren’t getting reported (they never do until they happen, i.e., Tiggers/Marlins yesterday: which outlet had that one before it was announced? None.) Obviously, I can’t tell you what the real ones are that are in the backrooms, as I’m sure you understand.
3) The Yankees played the Santana situation perfectly, so far. I can’t really say too much more until it all plays out; that’s not fair to the teams involved.
4) I’m not sure how often I’ll be back today. In the meantime, listen to Pete for news and SJ44 for commentary. I haven’t read a lot of the posts, but SJ44 knows what he’s talking about. And he’s in a better position to discuss things. If he’s wrong, I’ll let you know. LoL.
Later.
no matter what Philip Hughes can not be in the next Twins hat in hand deal
Neither Santana nor Peter Greenberg (his agent) said anything about wanting to be traded now. In fact, Greenberg angrily issued a denial of that rumor and he is a standup guy. Not the typical agent, spewing BS.
I don’t think Santana has any problem finishing up in Minnesota this year.
Does anyone think we should trade for Santana and have him play the OF? Maybe we can get 700+ HR out of him.
probably Cano more than Hughes/Melky
Fake Bobcat. You slay me.
“• Don’t expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.”
this would basically be the ideal outcome for the Yankees.
FIRE CASHMAN!!
Yankees having reservations about resigning Viz due to $$ and years.
What BP strategies are there?
Matt Cain is a stud and Lincecum’s nickname is “Seasbiscuit” because of his small stature.
wonder if there’s a hidden back door somewhere for Smith to sneak in… if so, does Cash smack him around some and send him on his way or talk some…
or is this just dead?
Robert Feline everybody
Let’s get Damaso Marte in a deal, sign Ron Mahay and Vizcaino and count the days until pitchers and catchers report to Tampa.
Bobcat,
LOL. I’ve been a good boy this week, trust me.
Stuart,
From the Tigers perspective, the key to the deal is Willis. If they can’t get him going, all they did was add more offense.
Don’t get me wrong, Cabrera is a helluva hitter. But, they gave up their two best prospects. Big time prospects in Miller and Maybin.
If Dontrelle doesn’t get back to 2005 form, that’s a bad deal for the Tigers, IMO.
They also traded a Dominican kid who can throw 100 in the deal. If he passes his physical, he’s the sleeper in the deal.
I live in South Florida and I hate the Marlins dismantling every year. Mainly, because they are printing money.
However, I tip my hat to their baseball people. They really know how to evaluate other teams prospects.
That’s one area where they do as good a job as anybody in the game.
BP strategies – give them kiddies a try and see which one sticks. Wonder if Horne would make a good reliever for a year… heh
So is bobcat implying that something may still happen with the Yankees? If so I hope they go back to their original package.
If I was Hank or Cash, I would go back to Minny now and offer Horne and Cabrera.
I for one am still for Santana if they drop their demands. He would make us instant favorite. Even with Detroits upgrade.
If the Lincecum/Rios deal goes down I think we’re fine next season. Switching from the NL west to the AL East should be rough for him. Add to that the stadium. By the time 2009 rolls around the Jays could be a serious threat.
I agree with you for a change, SJ44, about Gammons. I laughed out loud last night during ESPN’s baseball tonight at two Back-Gammones:
1) first he undercut the Tigers Front-Office by attributing part of their success to Illitch’s money. He never seems to mention the role John Henry’s money played in the Red Sox ‘07 championship
2) second, he effused, “Theo Epstein is a man of great integrity.” Really, forget JD Drew? I wonder how the Dodgers would appraise Theo’s “unimpeachable” integrity.
Let’s hope the Twins recent difficulties will result in them calling the Yankees and the teams revisiting the trade as the Diamondback and Yankees did, after the Old Unit negotations faltered at the Winter Meetings.
I wouldn’t even do Cano for Santana straight up at this point, no way. Robbie stays here.
JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WILL ALSO BE AT 521 5TH AVE. FROM 6-10PM. IT WILL BE A CIRCUIT CITY GRAND OPENING!
That Bobcat sounded real to me. What do I know?
The people who come in praise of Theo better be careful here, game theory would say the Yankees are in better position now then they were to start the week. The Twins are probably pretty annoyed at the Red Sox and I wouldn’t be surprised if they come back to the Yankees and wind up accepting a deal centered around Kennedy, Jackson and Marquez.
I wonder if the Twins would be interested in a package built around the original offers the Yankees threw out there.
I could see this as a similar situation to ARod, where the Yanks say they are out, but then they save face by saying the Twins came back to them to make the original deal…
i just dont buy the $$$ angle… since Johan is under contract for next year, the contract extention would count towards the 2009 payroll, right? So it’d only be like the $13 million on the books for 2008.
Two things I forgot to mention:
1) Bill Smith DID get greedy. He started out very well with the Young/Garza trade; now he’s in a bit of a situation, mostly with his fans. He turned down the best deal he’s going to get.
2) The Tigers’ big trade yesterday was absolutely a horrible idea on their part. They totally depleted their farm system and have NO ONE to bring up in case of injuries. Horrible, horrible trade.
i don’t think either Cashman or Theo look bad.
they might both be getting what they want: Johan stays in Minnesota.
that’s what they both want.
S.o.S.
It’s too soon. There are still clubs who would be remotely interested. When everyone’s done dealing their chips and Bob Kelly’s done doing his Black Magic super-secret hypnosis on Santana, then the time will be right.
I think people need to look at it from Smith’s perspective.
Of course he’s going to try to play teams against eachother and get the best deal possible.
As your first move in the role of GM would you trade the BEST PITCHER IN THE HISTORY OF YOUR FRANCHISE for a center fielder your scouts don’t really like, a prospect with a 4.6 ERA that missed half the season with a blown hammy, and a mid-level kid?
I think Pete brough up this same point last month some time, but I couldn’t find it again.
If Nathan becomes available, I don’t think he needs to worry about other teams not wanting to deal with him. After all, other teams are not run by spoiled Yankee fans.
Sunny,
I’d say its dead right now.
If the rumors about what the Royals have on the table are true, forget about Mahay.
The thing that’s amazing to me about today’s baseball is, although the sport is flush with money, teams still don’t have any idea what to do with it.
Paying average guys above average money, doesn’t make them above average players.
Look at the relief pitchers market:
19 million for Scott Linebrink.
4.3 per year for David Riske (from the Brewers).
Now, I like David, he’s a buddy of mine but, man that’s a lot of coin for him. Maybe now is the right time for me to ask for a loan! lol
I heard the Royals have a whopper of an offer on the table for Mahay.
I could see Viz pricing himself out of the Yankees range for his role in their bullpen.
Its why the deal the Yankees swung this week could be the sleeper deal of the week.
Can’t spend 4-5 million a year for middle-set up relief pitchers. That’s nuts.
Get starters to go an extra inning a game and you can fill your bullpen needs from within.
With the idea of Twins getting nothing from anyone… before everyone starts spewing junk for Santana trade ideas when they come “crawling back”, please remember than keeping Santana and getting picks is always better than giving him up for junk prospects/players. Smith won’t give up Santana for Horne and Melky or Eric Duncan and Sean Henn.
Can I infer from Bobcat’s 3rd assertion that the Yankees could revisit the Santana trade?
“The Yankees played the Santana situation perfectly, so far. I can’t really say too much more until it all plays out; that’s not fair to the teams involved”
sunny615,
For a second, I thought Smith found Cashman’s “back door” and attempted to rammed his tiny little pecker in there.
Fortunately, Cashman evaded Smith’s mini-manhood and held on the Phil.
Guys, stop fooling yourselves by thinking that the Yanks will jump back in and that Smith will accept a deal built around Kennedy. That’s like trying to convince George Bush that he doesn’t look like a Gremlin…or an Ewok.
“2) The Tigers’ big trade yesterday was absolutely a horrible idea on their part. They totally depleted their farm system and have NO ONE to bring up in case of injuries. Horrible, horrible trade.”
really? it’s a BAD idea to acquire a Hall of Fame level hitter at 24 years old?
the Tigers have proven that they will go way over slot to draft studs.
i think a team like the Tigers can afford to trade Miller b/c they can draft and sign the Millers and Porcellos.
one thing i will say, the Marlins are VERY smart when it comes to getting talent in firesales.
in a few years, we may look back and be astounded at how much the Tigers gave up. until then, i’m not sure i would call it a horrible trade.
Kill-Schill,
LOL at the Back-Gammons. Didn’t he also mention that Theo would never back out of the deal or take Lester out of the deal or something like that?
I could see the Yankees being willing to deal Kennedy along with others for Santana. I think they really didn’t want to deal Hughes at all, and once it was out there had a lot of second thoughts. Then Smithy got overly greedy and it killed it.
Kennedy could be sold to the Twins fans, especially if they were OK with Lester.
I think its best for all parties to step back from this though. While the Sox might have looked like they were really looking to deal, they really weren’t giving what the Twins were looking for.
So SJ44, then it would seem the Yanks fill their BP roles from within – who in the farm do you think is ready to fill those roles (including converting starters into relievers)?
A couple of points:
1- Bobcat usually doesn’t use CAPS all that much. His writing style is normally very low key.
2- Whenever Bobcat gives us his opinion he usually makes the distinction and writes Opinion at the begining of the section
I could be wrong now…but I don’t think so.
I do think if Johan is going nowhere, BC should explore packages for Nathan and Street for the back end of the pen.
as smart as Girardi is, i also dont buy he’s all about handing the ball to Farnsworth in the 8th inning.
once you get a piece to fit in front of MO, you can move Farnsworth in one of these many so-called “deals” other teams are coming to the Yankees with, and then they can line up the kids for the 6th and 7th innings.
Smith wouldn’t take junk, but why not quality quantity? One OF not named Jackson and 3 or 4 pitchers not named Hughes?
Jake – nice visual… now I think I need a gallon of Purell and a couple of showers to feel clean again.
ew.
“a prospect with a 4.6 ERA that missed half the season with a blown hammy”
I’d hardly say that’s an accurate description of Hughes…. Is it a true statement, sure, but hardly the way to describe one of the games highest rated young pitchers. We, the fans, didn’t make up the scouting reports and rankings that say he’s for real. Nor did we put magnets at the bottom of our tv sets to pull his curve ball off the face of the earth 2 feet from home plate.
Peter the Punk Rocker was just on ESPN news talking about how good the Tigers are going to be next year. He looked so sad. Poor Mr. Gammons, the days of the Red Sox as high-ground, righteous, hard luck, moralists, are over. Looks like Peter isn’t enjoying the Sox new status as much.
Yeah Mel, you got it, that was indeed the context Gammons fell all over himself to extol Theo.
Gammons played the Red Sox’s Court Jester yesterday on Baseball Tonight.
Bobcat,
Completely agree about the Tigers trade. Two injuries to their pitching staff, and they are screwed.
One thing Gammons forgets to mention when he talks about money in the game.
The Boston Red Sox are the highest payroll team to ever win a World Series.
I have no problem with him being a shill for the Sox. But, he’s got to can the “Little Engine That Could” crap.
They are a major market team with major market money.
Its time Peter stops being in denial on that point.
Sounds like Bobcat and he doesn’t say anything earth-shattering as is his MO, but “Tiggers”? Maybe that’s a feline fetish thing there.
re the Tigers they just gave away their farm in order to win now. That is fine IF you do win now but if you dont win it all what do you do?? SJ probably has better idea of the Tigers farm system but my understanding is with this trade they basically depleted all of the A level guys with the exception of Porcello. What happens if someone gets hurt this year, who comes up and fills in. Also what do they do now with Brandon Inge does he become a 6 million dollar utility guy?? Do they put him on a trade for someone else but who is going to pay that kind of contract?
Pudge is off the books next year for them, who is their catcher after that? Sheff will be 40 next year and based on his past few years of injury that is a question mark helath wise. Edgar Reneria nice player but how did he a fare in the AL last time out??
For Smith to take a lesser offer now than before would be a failing on his part in the views of the owner and fans. He won’t make that mistake. It’s Hughes and others or hold on to Santana (which I’m fine with).
hmmm:
It’s a horrible trade because of the reason I stated: they have NO ONE to bring up in case of injuries. Think Sheffield might get hurt? Will they have a great offense? Yes, if everyone stays healthy. Do they have a great bullpen? No. Do they have the pieces in their minors’ system to go get more? No.
The Tigers are a Verlander injury away from a third place finish. In my humble opinion.
sunny,
Ya, I kind of felt dirty after that one as well. I had a mandated moment with lava soap a few minutes ago. Purell ought to do the trick too
Again, Smith is not going to give up Santana for a Kennedy based deal. He might have been an idiot in the way he tried to play the Yankees, but he isn’t altogether dumb.
Bill Smith fondles small, woodland creatures.
Gayle,
What you’re describing there is the White Sox to the T. Another dynamic in the trade is that supposedly Dumbroski was in Florida when this future HOF hitter was drafted. Tough that they had to take on Willis and lose Miller, but if it doesn’t hurt both sides it’s not a good trade, right?
from espn: “Riske will get $13 million over three years, with a $4.75 million option for 2011. With the incentives package and option, the deal could net as much as $20 million.”
the price of good relievers seems to be going up. the bullpen is an obvious place for the yankees to improve. with joba back to starting the yankee bullpen is pretty thin. hopefully they add at least one quality veteran to the mix.
Chris
“I’d hardly say that’s an accurate description of Hughes…. Is it a true statement, sure, but hardly the way to describe one of the games highest rated young pitchers.”
I agee with you, I’m playing Devil’s advocate here. I personally love Phil, but that is the reality that everyone in Minnesota is going to be beating Smith over the head with IF he makes a trade he doesn’t really like that ultimately doesn’t pan out.
I agree with Bobcat and SJ44. The first thing I thought when I heard about that Marlins/Tiger trade was “What about the Tigers bullpen, its a mess.” And they go out and drop 6 players for a questionable starter and a stud 3B.
It’ll be interesting to see what pans out, though the Tigers probably aren’t done yet.
SJ44,
Intersting point about Boston being the highest payroll to ever win a WS. I love it. Their small market days of bitching and whining about the Yankees as the “Evil Empire” are a joke.
rbizzler
December 5th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Where’s PB in DC? First he accuses me of posting false info, now is nowhere to be found. Typical DC ‘hillrat.’
I’m right here rbizzler. Three things:
1. I have work to do, I wasn’t dodging you believe it or not.
2. I’m not a ‘hillrat’, whatever that is. I work in the private sector, thank you.
3. You said Trot Nixon is the only player on that 2004 WS team that came up with the Red Sox… not true: I know at least three others off the top of my head: Jason Varitek, Nomar Garciaparra (obviously traded in july), and Kevin Youkilis. Also, there were several players who maybe weren’t drafted by the red sox but came up through their system, I believe Lenny Dinardo is one, though I’m not certain.
Point is: to say that Trot Nixon was the only homegrown guy on the entire roster and he was injured is wrong and misleading.
In house options for roles in the Yankees bullpen (in no particular order):
Farnsworth
Ramirez
Ohlendorf
Veras (who is having an excellent season in winter ball)
Patterson (my personal sleeper)
Horne. He certainly has the stuff to pitch out of the ‘pen.
Sanchez and Melancon. I think both those guys have an excellent chance to be in the ‘pen the second half of the season.
Cox. Depends on how healthy he is in the spring. If he didn’t get hurt last year, he had a shot of making the team.
Albadajedo. He’s probably a lock to make the team, unless he gets pounded in ST.
I think they will have to go outside the organization to find a LH.
Varitek was not a product of the Red Sox system.
If Smith makes contact with Casman, Cashman needs to set the ground rules. Once the players lists are given out and they start agreeing on a package, the deal either gets done right there….no phone calls…no running to another team to up the package. Make the deal, sign the paperwork and fax it to the commissioner’s office before leaving the room. Don’t like it…hit the road.
I don’t really care either way what the Red Sux did or didn’t do w/ their homegrown players… it is still about winning right??? Yanks need Santana b/c we want to win #27, right?
who cares if it is 100% homegrown, or 10% homegrown. It is most likely going to take a combination of the two and I see no/limited amount of value in being able to say “we’re built w/ 100% homegrown players”.
IT IS ABOUT WORLD SERIES RINGS. How can that be forgotten on this board?
I’d like to take a moment to thank both SJ44 and Bobcat for their input, one of the reasons this blog is the best source of information available.
Jake and SJ44,
I think most of us are hoping that we’ll become the team with the highest payroll to win the WS.
Cox’s injury was self-inflicted, no?
Varitek came from Seattle (along with Derek Lowe) in the immortal Heathcliff Slocomb trade.
Youkilis began his career in the A’s system.
also additional Hughes points.. the guy struck out about a batter a inning while losing 3 or 4 miles on his fastball because of his leg injury… Call me a fool but I think that bodes well for the future..
Oh and he turned 21 during the season..Also ask the indian batters how his stuff was in game 3 while down by 3 runs?? Looked pretty damn good to me……
Yeah and every run of the mill dominates the minors to the sick level that Hughes did…..
This guy has mega stud written all over him, Kennedy is not even in his stratosphere.
Sherman nice comment today defaming Hughes work ethic.. Nice I like these writers who really based on there proffession should know a lot more then they do…
That’s why I found Gammon’s discussion of the Tigers’ money so amusing. He must have forgotten John Henry spent $51.1 million of his own money on Lice-K. And that the Red Sox spent over $210 million last off-season in free-agency.
The other thing to keep in mind about the Tigers. Baseball commentators seem to have one-hour memory retention.
Remember how much they vaunted the indomitable Yankees lineup before the 2005 playoffs with Abreu, Sheff, and Matsui.
The Tigers new lineup like the Yankees prolific offense over the last three years may carry them through the season and outhit their bullpen’s mistakes. But come post-season, their rotation begs many questions once they advance past Verlander.
Bonderman has injury questions. Kenny Rogers is how old? Can he continue to thrive? How will Dontrelle perform in the AL?
And Todd Jones and Fernando Rodney don’t exactly inspire confidence. In fact, before Zumaya was injured, the Tigers planned to jettison Jones.
That’s a lot of farm for the pen. But given the current craziness for relievers, I guess we don’t have much choice.
What are Igawa’s chances of finding a place in the pen? I’m choking on my own vomit as I type it of course.
[quote]
December 5th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Peter Gammons stopped being a journalist about 4 years ago.
These days, he is now just a shill for Theo and the Red Sox.
Its a shame because his Sunday Boston Globe column was a must read for years.[/quote]
I used to call Gammons the “bible”. I loved his sunday column too. He’s such a fraud now. He really doesn’t have a clue these days.
Here is a little useless analisys:
Where is Brian Cashman from?
Lexington, Kentucky
What is Lexington, Kentucky most known for sportswise?
University of Ketucky basketball
What is there team called?
Kentucky Widcats
What is there mascot?
Blue — A live bobcat (note that in American English, “wildcat” generally refers to this particular mammal). He lives at the state-operated Salato Wildlife Education Center near the state capital of Frankfort. Unlike the school’s two costumed mascots, he never attends games, because bobcats are very shy by nature and do not react well with large crowds
A Bobcat!!!
Coincidence?
mel totally agree with you BUT my premise is that this is the kind of deal because of all the youth you gave up that is the team needs to win now deal which is all well and good IF you do win but if you dont that is where the problem lies as you have depleted your farm system.
With regard to SJ comments about all the money in the game and owners not knowing what to do with it. This to me is one of the biggest problems in that teams like KC have to overpay (or at least they think they do) to get players to come there thus the big contract they paid Meche last year. So pedestrian Meche gets X, then Barry Zito who is way above Meche can ask for Y. Thus KC has set a market that is stupid in terms of money and once again makes it so they have to jack up the offer to someone like Mahay.Now with the Linebrink contract players like the VIz feel that they can make at least that. Until the day when owners in smaller market actually think before signing the check the inflated value of mediocre players will keep rising and setting the bar for the real talented players off the charts.
Mel,
The broken hand was self-inflicted…..off someone’s head in a bar fight.
The injury that cost him his season was elbow surgery. Not TJ, but the same surgery Mo had in the minors.
Why couldn’t the Yankees package around Kennedy but add more to it of lesser but decent quality players? It might be a slight bit harder to see a downgraded pitcher as the “key” but maybe it could help fill some holes in better.
I guess the codes from anothe forum don’t work here. doh!
SJ44, wasn’t a running subject of Moneyball Billy Beane’s desire to acquire Kevin Youklis, the Jewish God of Walks, from the Red Sox because he had failed to persuade his baseball people to pick him when the A’s had the chance?
I think Youklis has always been in the Sox system.
SJ44,
This might sound crazy but why not try Igawa as the lefty from the pen? His strikouts were high last year and if Girardi and crew can work on his control then maybe, just maybe he might finally be of help.
No to the VIZ. These contracts for the relief pitchers are out of hand. I say solve it inhouse with our abundance of starting pitchers in the minors.
To piggyback on SJ’s statement about the Sox having the highest payroll ever to win the series, I will repost my Sox ‘04 roster that PB in DC requested and then never acknowledged. Talk about buying a world series…
1B – Millar (trade with FLA/stolen from Japan)
2b – Bellhorn (FA singee afre non-tender by COL)
SS – Cabrera (trade with MON/MIN)
3b – Mueller (FA or trade can’t remember)
C – Varitek (trade w/ SEA)
CF – DAmon (FA signee from OAK/KC)
RF – Kapler(trade w/TX) and Nixon (actual draftee)
LF – Ramirez (FA from CLE)
DH – Big Sloppi (FA after non-tender by MIN, on the advice of a young assistant named Bill Smith)
SP – Pedro (trade w/ MON)
SP – Schilling (’trade’ w/ ARI)
SP- Lowe (trade w/ SEA)
SP – Arroyo (from PIT)
SP – Wakefield (from PIT)
RP – Timlin (journeyman)
RP – Embree (trade or FA)
RP – Leskanic (trade)
RP – Williamson (Trade w/ CIN)
CL – Foulke (FA or trade w/ OAK/CHIW)
Bench
Mirabelli (trade)
Jackson (trade)
McCarty (trade/rule V/waiver from OAK)
Roberts (trade)
Minky (trade w/ MIN/MON)
Now Youk was on the PS roster but only got 2 AB’s in the DS v. ANA, after getting @200 AB’s all year.
Looks like someone owes me an apology (That would be PB in DC).
SJ44,
Thanks. Must’ve been frustrating for him. lol.
there’s a new post by pete A.
If Bill Smith accepted a “lesser” (Kennedy) offer from the Yankees for Santana when he had already refused a Hughes package, there would be a nice bonfire waiting for Smith when he got off the plane in MN… with a big stake in the middle and some rope.
use blockquote instead of quote.
That sounded like Bobcat.
Just because he knows what’s going on better than any of us could hope to doesn’t mean he can’t call the Tiggers the Tiggers.
It’s funny.
Lighten up.
Real World
December 5th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
I guess the codes from anothe forum don’t work here. doh!
———-
This is a funny little blog – try inserting “block” in front of your quotes – blockquote instead of quote
one way to cut down on the innings of hughes,joba, and kennedy is to have a really deep bullpen the way the angels had a few years ago. the problem of waiting to see if young pitchers emerge is all the veteran relievers are tied up by then. i agree though that the yankees will probably see what they have in house before they look outside.
Ed – Brooklyn NY
December 5th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
JOBA CHAMBERLAIN WILL ALSO BE AT 521 5TH AVE. FROM 6-10PM. IT WILL BE A CIRCUIT CITY GRAND OPENING!
__________________________________________________
Chamberlain had better get the Hell out of NY state before they try to declare him a resident.
The whole idea of stockpiling arms is that there are power in numbers.
Is every guy going to turn out to be a stud? Of course not.
However, if you compile enough arms, which the Yankees have done, chances are you will get your share of guys who become contributors to your team.
Bullpens today are about power arms. For example, if Mark Melancon is healthy (and according to someone I know he is), he is a guy to watch this year.
He could be what Betancourt was to the Indians. His stuff is that dominant.
Its why ST is going to be a blast this year. You will have a lot of arms fighting for roster spots.
Plus, with a new manager, there are no preconcieved notions as to who makes the club and who doesn’t.
In other words, no “veteran-itis”. If a young guy pitches his way onto the roster, he is going to have a spot. He won’t lose it just because he’s not a veteran.
A difference from the previous regime.
I still believe MINN would pounce on a reasonable offer from an NL club, to get Santana out of the AL.
But in evaluating potential suitors and not knowing who Santana would give up his NTC for,, I believe one of the few teams with both the resources and personnel to move on it, I’m left with LAD being the top candidate.
What is the opinion out there on the trade potential, LAD/MINN?
SJ44 – in your previous post – you said “in no particular order”
how about one in order of talent/skills/ability?
PB,
Please don’t bring up middling players like Lenny DiNardo (27 innings in ‘04) and act like they played a great role in the WS. As has been stated earlier, Varitek was not a product of the BOS farm. And the Nomar trade is cited by many as the reason they won the Series. He may have a ring, but he was not part of the actual team that won the championship. I call ‘em as I see ‘em and Youk had two PS AB’s (0-2). Not exactly a critical part of the operation there huh?
And, I have work to do as well. In DC, no less.
“You said Trot Nixon is the only player on that 2004 WS team that came up with the Red Sox… not true: I know at least three others off the top of my head: Jason Varitek, Nomar Garciaparra (obviously traded in july), and Kevin Youkilis.”
not to pick on you, but Varitek came from the Mariners.
also, Nomar was traded in July. i know he was “on the 2004 WS team”, but while you are technically correct, i am not sure he counts.
music to my ears.
Ranting Guy,
I being light.
A few points:
(1) Theo a manof integrity? Someone mentioned Nancy Drew. Remember also the Millar affair.
(2) Gammons did write a great baseball column back in the day each Sunday for the Globe. Covered a full page and contained tidbits of info which in the pre-internet, cable world could not be found anywhere else. And it was about all of baseball, not just the bosux. Even then though he was part shill and very anti-NY. He use to refer to papa George as Phineas T. Bluster. Now, as everyone notes, HE has lost all integrity and should preface all of his “reports” with a disclaimer such as “I am a bosux season ticket holder and pretend to be a rock star with Theo”.
(3) Maybe this thing will morph into Arod redux, with Smith coming back to the Yankees in an attempt to mend fences and do a deal. Think he would also have to apologize?
Argh,
I being light.
Mike R.:
You need to get out more, methinks.
One more general comment on the state of baseball and what we’re seeing at these meetings: The teams that have owners that are less concerned with bottom line and more serious about being competitive (NOT the Twins or Marlins) have a lot of money to spend on Free Agents. However, the baseball ops guys are now seeing that the only way to grow your product is to do exactly that – grow your own. Cashman and the Yankees have seen that and, as some other teams have known for awhile, are hording. That’s why no deals other than the pillage of yesterday have occurred. Nobody’s letting loose of their kids.
Hey, SJ44 or Bobcat, can you handicap the likelihood of the Yankees revisiting the Santana negotiations, if the Red Sox deal isn’t consummated and Smith initiates discussion with the Yankees?
double argh.
I was being light.
mel – let it go… it’s all good.
rbizzler, cool you’re in dc… I live in west end/foggy bottom….
anyhow, I don’t care all that much about the 2004 Red Sox. BUT, I don’t know how you can say Jason Varitek is anything but a red sox and a product of their system… GRANTED, it is true and accurate he was acquired in a trade and only spent one year in AAA for them. You could say the same thing about Derek Lowe (only part of the year in AAA).
So I do think your comment was misleading.
But, all these things aside, I do owe you an apology b/c I thought there were more “homegrown” players (however you define that) than there were at that team.
Why is it some badge of courage to have homegrown players as a large percentage of your roster in the first place?
KillSchill,
0%. I don’t see the Yankees calling the Twins to revive talks.
I don’t think they are heartbroken if Santana stays in Minnesota.
If they pulled out of the talks, believing (at least some in the organization did) he was going to Boston, why would they revive talks now?
I think they are very content to wait it out and be VERY competitive for his services if he becomes a FA after the season, or is offered up again at the deadline.
You can see Inge going on the market for pitching, now.
rumor circulating the Twins are trying to engage the Mets…
I could see a scenario where Smith calls on the Yankee though. If he came in with a “concession” of Kennedy, but was looking to get more players the quantity could help make the deal.
Not saying its going to happen, and I think it will more than likely end up being a Santana all the time period around the Trade Deadline, it will probably mean that the Twins get less for him.
sunny615 this should be funny
SJ44, Not even if Bill Smith calls the Yankees to initiate the discussion?
What if the Twins return and say okay we’ll take that Hughes, Cabrera, and [B-level prospect] offer; or we’ll take Hughes and Austin Jackson alone?
You don’t think the Yankees would re-consider.
And BTW, what did you think of Joel Sherman’s insinuation in today’s NYP that Hughes’ conditioning concerns the Yankees.
PB,
I live in Cleveland Park and went to grad school in your ‘hood at GW.
The point of all of our rants is that Yankee fans have been dealing with Sox fans (and everyone else) lobbing the accusation that the Yanks bought all of their success. When their team does it, their management groups are called ’shrewd,’ ‘creative,’ etc. and it is looked upon as a great success. Just trying to prove that the Sox bought their title in ‘04 and have had the two highest payrolls ever to win the WS.
I be you be we be
post on mattingly from Pete
Smithy should just suck it up, close up shop and announce Santana is a Twin for 08.
BTW, Kevin Youkilis is a product of the Boston Red Sox organization. He was drafted by them in the 8th round (243rd overall) of the 2001 MLB draft.
Its been rumored that the Texas Rangers have inquired about Santana. Now that they are off the hook for Arod’s “contribution”, the organization has the money to afford Johan. I’m not familiar enough with their MilB prospects (other than john Mayberry) enough to speculate whether they have the chips to trade.
I don’t see the Rangers getting Johan to waive the NTC.
I’m not too worried about the Tigers, other than they can hit you to death if your pitching sucks. D-Train will get exposed in the AL. He is good, but I feel that he is slightly overrated especially coming off the year he just had. He just got moved from a JV league to Varsity so I expect him to level out even more now. El Tigres still have issues on the mound and now with Zumaya out, I can’t say much for their pen either. It still comes down to pitching boys…
The Yankees will be the World Champions in 2008 and in the process, take the title away from Boston as the team with the highest payoll from the AL East to do so.
The Yankees are the last team to repeat as champions and it was in fact a three-peat in 2000.
Boston hasn’t repeated since 1916.
Where are you guys finding this information out about Joba making these appearances?