A few minor moves on tap
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 06, 2007 
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Over on his blog, Sweeny Murti is reporting that the Yankees could sign old friend Nick Green and Chris Woodward to minor-league deals. They would compete for a spot on the roster as a backup infielder.
Green was a Yankee for a bit in 2006. Woodward was with the Mets for a stretch (05-06) and was a Brave last season. The Yanks also signed Cody Ransom, an infielder with some pop who has spent parts of five seasons in the majors.
Based on my last count, the Yankees will have the population of Rhode Island in camp to compete for spots in the bullpen. Here’s a list:
Jonathan Albaladejo, T.J. Beam, Chris Britton, Brian Bruney, Matt DeSalvo, Kyle Farnsworth, Sean Henn, Alan Horne, Kei Igawa, Jeff Karstens, Jeff Marquez, Ross Ohlendorf, Scott Patterson, Edwar Ramirez, Darrell Rasner, Mariano Rivera, Jose Veras, Steven White, Chase Wright.
How many of those guys are reliable? Mariano Rivera.
However … once they are deemed healthy, Humberto Sanchez, J.B. Cox and Mark Melancon could figure into the mix.
I think their will be about 3 or 4 more names on that bullpen list before long.
“How many of those guys are reliable? Mariano Rivera.”
Not as reliable as he use to be, however.
why does cashman want nick green or chris woodward over miguel cairo? cairo is better than both of them
I think I’m going to try out for the Yankees pen. I can easily come in every other night and walk people on four straight pitches. I’ll even give them a hometeam discount.
$1M a year.
Posada on Michael Kay show! NOW!
Don’t forget, Joba will move back to the bullpen. Speaking of bullpens, wonder if the Yankees might thrown in Krazy Kyle into the mix during their Giants trade talks?
And the scary thing is that Farnsworth might be the second most reliable guy. Just kidding. I mean, I’m not kidding about Farsworth being the second most reliable guy (if I totally ignore his balky back). Just kidding meant that I’m not dissing Kyle because I’m definitely on the “Kyle’s going to be great this season” bandwagon. Without hope there’s only despair…
Need to run Farnsworth over with a tractor.
Ransom is signed for the AAA team.
He has little or no shot to make the big club.
They are short infielders at Scranton and he is being brought in to play third base.
>> Don’t forget, Joba will move back to the bullpen. >>
Says who?
Kyle Farnsworth is not reliable. At all.
Lot of time between now and Opening Day.
I suspect the bullpen will be fortified by then.
Just because deals weren’t made at the Winter Meetings doesn’t mean nothing will happen in the next couple of months.
Jorge trying to make up to Hughes. lol.
Dear Santa–
All I want for Christmas this year is a bullpen for the NY Yankees.
I know I haven’t been the best girl in 2007, and that I light candles this time of year and play dreidle, if you get my meaning, pretty please?
It’d be so much better than coal.
Heyman said on M&MD that he thinks Jonathan Sanchez would be on of the pieces coming back if the Yanks were to trade Matsui to the Giants. I for one, love Sanchez. He COULD be another Santana or Liriano. Johan had trouble throwing strikes early on in his career. That is the one downside to Sanchez. He throws very hard for a lefty, is very tall and can be intimidating. He could do well in the rotation or as a late-inning reliever (similar to Mike Gonzalez).
SJ44,
After waiting for a year and a half, I’m starting to give up on getting rid of Kyle Farnsworth. And until that man is out of the organization, I don’t think the bullpen will ever be fortified.
How can you not like a guy who named his first born ‘Stone’?
Could Francesa get over it, Joba is a starter not a reliever.
Anybody know when we can expect the following guys to be back playing, even if in the minors:
1) Humberto Sanchez
2) Mark melancon
3) JB Cox
I know they have to get back into form after surgery, but just curious as to if/when we might expect to see them this season…
I’ve seen people say that #1 & #3 might be ready for a nud-season call-up ala Joba.
mel- stone philips gives me the creeps. who’s wih me?
uhh, that would be ‘mid-season’.
Not nude-season? Damn.
~Adam,
Yeah, it is kind of a Flintstone name. lol.
By your description he could also be a lefty version of Farnsworth. I am not convinced.
2003 Marlins Best Team ever???
yeah a nude-season would have a lot of upside.
“yeah a nude-season would have a lot of upside.”
And there we go, full circle, back to those pull ups favored by Damon. Just remember to use your sunscreen.
I think Farnsie is going to win 20 games this year for the Yankees. Especially if he wears the camouflages under the pinstripes like he did late last year.
Well, come on. All of those guys are realible.
What? You mean realiably good? Oh, well, just Mo then.
“How many of those guys are reliable? Mariano Rivera.”
rofl. Pete you are one funny dude.
Jose Guillen/Jay Gibbons suspended 15 days for HGH…….
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3144472
according to Patrick Teale of PSP last night via ESPN1050
1) Humberto Sanchez – first month of the season could be up in MLB by July
2) Mark melancon – fast mover might move faster than Joba is probably the future closer of the Yankees already throwin 92 + coming back from TJS in the Dominican Republic
3) JB Cox – AAA for first 2 months could be a mid season call up
Seriously though, they will also have one of
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy and
Mussina
in the bp at all times as they will have 6 starters and will be skipping starts of those guys to keep their innings at 175-200.
Those guys should also be considered reliable.
So 2 down, 5 to go.
Sigh.
Great news on all accounts.
Farns IS reliable…just not in the way Yankee fans would like him to be!!!
I would recommend throwing Wang into the Giants trade talks. I love the back-to-back 19 win seasons, but his K/BB ratio scares me more than the torque of Lincecum’s delivery does. Wang’s nails will never be 100% either because he supposedly smokes 1-2 packs a day. Professional athletes in this day have no business doing that. He’d be better off drinking a 6 pack of Milwaukee’s Best after every game than to be smoking cigarettes.
Brandon- I look for JB Cox to be a bullpen staple very early in the season.
Are we discounting Great Britton?
Farnsworth wasn’t awful at the end of last season.
…just trying to be optimistic.
My name may not be Idiot Face, but I do love Matt DeSalvo….:(
I don’t get why it would benefit a rebuilding team to get 4 years older and much more expensive in the starting rotation. Rios makes sense because they want a middle of the lineup bat; Wang does not.
The latest on LaRussa’s spat with Rolen. Still think he would have worked out in NY? LaRussa’s skin is so thin… well… you finish the thought.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7531218
yeah I keep hearing that, I mean they say he tops out at 94mph but his slider is filthy, but as soon as Melancon rises it’s GAME OVER
, Marquez and McCutchen really intrigues me
Wang hasn’t smoked in a year.
Last year at this time, the Red Sox had no idea what their bullpen was going to look like after Papelbon.
Things have a way of working out.
Every team has bullpen issues because its impossible to depend on middle relief guys from year to year.
The young guys will all get a shot to make the team.
Why not give them that shot? You may have a few guys who surprise.
Not having all the answers to the roster on December 6 is not a bad thing.
Farnsworth is reliable.
Reliably BAD.
I really hope Girardi..anyone..can try and fix him.
Delaware,
Because they would want both Wang and Matsui at least for either Lincecum or Cain. The Giants also don’t want to go into total rebuilding mode. They still need to fill those seats of the new beautiful stadium. I’m not big on the idea of trading Matsui, but I’m not so high on Wang like everybody else is. I see him as a solid #4 or #3, but not a dominant pitcher.
It remains to be seen how many of them are reliable when they aren’t being utterly abused by Joe Torre.
Our bullpen should be…
Moose long-relief
Albaladejo right handed specialist
Ohlendorf (long-relief)
Farnsworth (setup ..at least in the beginning)
Marte (get dis guy) lefty specialist
Mo
And then add Horne as soon as one of the other guys not namde Marte and Mo falter.
Scud Missile
December 6th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Delaware,
Because they would want both Wang and Matsui at least for either Lincecum or Cain. The Giants also don’t want to go into total rebuilding mode. They still need to fill those seats of the new beautiful stadium. I’m not big on the idea of trading Matsui, but I’m not so high on Wang like everybody else is. I see him as a solid #4 or #3, but not a dominant pitcher.
—————-
He has more wins than most aces in the major leagues the past two seasons lol. Aces win games, 3 or 4 starters win some.
SJ44
Not having all the answers to the roster on December 6 is not a bad thing.
That is a true statement. The Yankees problem is that that has been a true statement now for the last 4-5 years…and counting. I hope this trade with SF yields another starter, that would allow Joba to stay in the pen. I think the Yanks should at least leave that option open. Most of those names have been auditioned and none can be trusted excepted Mo. Just my thought…
Scud: I just don’t see why they’d want to move a key young player in order to get a few incremental wins in 2008. Rios makes sense because he’s still young, gives them a middle of the lineup presense and can play a premium position (even though he’s been in RF, everything I read says he can easily go back to CF) Beyond that, again, I don’t think the Yankees would make that trade given the current youth in the rotation.
Sunglass: Please stop looking at wins. If his ERA is worse than a lot of other starters, you can assume his wins are a product of his team. That’s how it works. Wins are not an accurate measuring stick.
Kei Igawa’s sunglasses,
Lol? really? http://baseball-almanac.com/pi.....cnl5.shtml were Jon Lieber, Russ Ortiz, Daryl Kile, Jose Lima, and Denny Neagle, and John Burkett aces? No, they were not. They just happened to be good #3 or #4 pitchers who happened to play on very good teams.
Jon G. -
Humberto Sanchez and Mark Melancon could get late season looks if their progression continues. J.B. Cox more likely in ’09.
I agree with SJ44, of course–it’s really hard to come up with a list of even fifteen reliable middle-late relief options throughout all of baseball (discounting closers). There’s just so much volatility inherent in the bullpen, it doesn’t make sense to try anything *but* a low-cost, middle-risk, high-upside option of throwing young, live arms into a bullpen and seeing which ones can succeed.
At the end of the day, is it any riskier than signing a Vizcaino or Linebrick or Farnsworth to a Free Agent contract? I don’t think so; you’re not stuck with a sunk cost if things explode, which (as aforementioned) is liable to happen with bullpen arms.
SJ44 & Phoenix: Well put. All the best bullpens in the league are built on, at most, two higher priced arms and mostly hard throwers. Arizona and Cleveland are the perfect models to follow this year (if you ignore the whole Borowski thing).
Andrea
December 6th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Farnsworth wasn’t awful at the end of last season.
…just trying to be optimistic.
My name may not be Idiot Face, but I do love Matt DeSalvo….:(
___________________________________________________
I could deal with having DeSalvo on the team as long as he becomes the new “Boston Strangler”.
And regarding Chien-Ming Wang: totally ignoring wins, he’s still one of the top twenty pitchers in the AL the last two years. This past season, he was comfortably in the top fifteen by pitching VORP and BP’s lineup-adjusted wins-expected-above-replacement metric.
Maybe he’s not a shutdown ace; he certainly isn’t a shutdown ace in the traditional power-pitching/high-strikeout sense. But to say he’s only a No. 3 or No. 4? Even on a good team with a strong rotation, I’d say Wang would make a strong No. 2. He’s only a No. 3 on particularly top-heavy rotations like Cleveland, in my estimation.
The Fallen Phoenix
Question. So since middle relievers are so “risky” do you think that keeping Joba in the pen is a “waste” to have him as your 7&8th inning stopper and eventually Mo’s successor? Seems to me like the Yanks found something that worked last year with the exception of a reliable starter after pettitte and hughes. Why not continue with that?
Joba’s a waste because 150 IPs are inherently better than 80 IPs.
did Phil Hughes date a relative of Joel Sherman and did her wrong ? because he seriously rips him, bad work ethic ?, injury prone ? I mean damn
Why not continue with that?
Because he has the stuff to be a great starter and would have much more value pitching 175 innings (or whatever) than pitching 75 innings.
I’d agree that Wang is one of the top 20-25 pitchers in the AL; calling him a #3 isn’t really saying he’s no better than the 29th best pitcher in the AL to me, its a slotting thing.
#1s have lights out stuff and have put it all together
#2s either have very good but not great stuff (Haren) or have great stuff and will be #1s when they harness it (McGowan)
#3s have consistently good stuff but will/could never be confused with elite (Wang/Blanton)
#4s are guys who would slot in as back of the rotation, consistent, league average innings eaters on a good team (Westbrook)
#5 is an insult, more or less; league average on their best day
I think everyone defines it slightly differently, probably especially in the #2 range, but that seems about right. At any given time, there are only 10-15 true #1s in the majors.
Phoenix
I can buy that Wang is a #2 on quite a few teams. I just think if we are willing to trade away a Matsui, a Hughes, a Melkman, or a Kennedy, then we should find out what we could fetch for Wang too.
Mister Delaware
I see the 150IP argument Mister Delaware, but if those innings only yield 9-10 winse based on pitching 7 innings a game becasue of a faulty bullpen that seems like a waste too. We can get some other pitcher of lesser ability to do the same…
Those 80IP that Joba pitches could actually lead to more wins (because of holds), so there is another side to this that will be a VERY tough call for Girardi and co.
A bad starting pitcher means a good relief pitcher is rendered useless. Its always better to try and get 1/5th of your games to the bullpen with a lead rather than hold back that good pitcher for the times mediocre pitchers can get you there.
jashell2000
Who is the replacement pitcher he is going to knock holds down for? Kei Igawa?
I agree with that logic. But are we talking about the Yankees starting rotation of Pettite, Wang, Huges, Kennedy ect. Are these guyes “bad starting pitchers” ? That logic would make sense for the Joba situation if our rotation was “bad” but I would think that at least 3/5 of our rotation could get our games to the bullpen with a lid if not more. Again, even if we had studs in our rotation a they are neutralized by a terrible pen because we still lose the game late…
Yes, it is a waste. 180+ innings of Joba is better than 100+ innings of Joba.
Let’s put it this way. Joba, if he hits his ceiling, can give you 180 innings of ace-quality over the course of the season. That’s huge. It helps that Joba has remarkable stamina; his velocity doesn’t dip even into the 6th and 7th inning (no, he won’t be throwing 98 the whole game, but he can still throw 95+ the whole game, and there’s not a lot of big starters who can do that). Even if Joba ends up giving you No. 2 or No. 3 starter quality, if he stays healthy, he can still eat a lot of innings, and that’s pretty valuable–it puts less pressure on your bullpen.
On the other hand, if Joba completely bombs as a starter (which I personally find unlikely), you can just slide him right back into the bullpen, where you know he works best. Essentially, putting Joba in the rotation then becomes a low-risk, high-upside option, because if it works out, great, you’ve reached the best possible state of affairs, but if it doesn’t work out, it’s low-risk because you can pencil Joba as your ace reliever.
This calculus admittedly depends on the framework that even an ace reliever is as valuable as a No. 3 starter, which I think is definitely true over the course of a regular season (it’s interesting to note that J.J. Putz, the best statistical reliever last season, was only worth 8-wins above replacement, where the best starters can be worth twice that).
Another key is that great starters, particularly No. 1 and No. 2 types, give you quality and quantity when it comes to innings pitched, and that allows you to have fewer high-leverage innings for your bullpen to struggle through.
This isn’t to say bullpens are pointless, or that good bullpen arms aren’t at all valuable. The potential of a top-of-the-rotation starter, or even a good middle-rotation-starter, is too much to ignore in Joba’s case.
Either way, it’s actually a really good problem for the Yankees to have. There aren’t a lot of teams who can boast having a player who could conceivably be an ace reliever or an ace starter.
SCUD
I believe we have more options before we even have to discuss putting Kei in the rotation…
Kei was projected to be a long reliever…and he is proving that theory correct so far….but he may not even be that.
Assuming all our SPs have the ability to bounce back quickly (which could be an issue with Mussina), the 5 that project to be the best should be the starters. I can’t imagine Joba won’t project as one of the 5 best.
(By the by: Am I the only one that really likes Rasner here?)
((By the by II: Will Girardi carry the long/mop-up man that Torre never seemed to? Always infuriated me when a starter would get blown up and we’d go to Villone for 2 then every reliever not named Mariano for 1 each.))
The Fallen Phoenix.
Excellent point. It was my point to begin with and that is it is a great problem to have. I do actually hope that Joba is our #1 that we have been looking for and that the bullpen can be “pieced” together for Mo somehow. Joba being the starter is the best case scenario in my view.
I have visions of Lincecum twisting and firing 100mph heat in the 7th and 8th innings at Fenway in my head…..but anyways a rotation of Joba, Pettite, Wang, Hughes, and Kennedy will be exciting to watch, even if it only leads to a 90 win second place season.
Here’s another way we can look at the rotation/bullpen argument:
Slotting Joba Chamberlain into the rotation gives the Yankees a potential 1/1A combination of Hughes-Joba, not so unlike Cleveland’s 1/1A of Sabathia-Carmona this past season, or even Arizona’s 1/1A of Johnson-Schilling in 2001. When you have two dominant starters like that, the bullpen almost becomes irrelevant, because all you need then is one or two reliable bullpen arms.
If you move Joba Chamberlain to the bullpen, true, he automatically becomes one of those reliable arms. The problem, however, is that removing him from your rotation–thereby costing you the 6-7 innings of dominating pitching you otherwise might have expected–your certainty about performance those first few innings drops off remarkably, even if you plug Joba’s spot with a Wang or a Kennedy. Furthermore, keeping Chamberlain in a potential 1-1A relationship with Hughes allows you to take advantage of rotational depth, matching Wang and Kennedy up with guys like Paul Byrd and other mid-bottom rotational offerings.
Of course those match-ups don’t always work out, but speaking probabilistically, it’s certainly an advantage in your favor. Otherwise, delegating Joba to the bullpen, you necessarily rely on lesser arms to give you five or six quality innings (which is never a given), and this requires *more* quality relief arms, even beyond your given of Joba.
…I’m not sure if that makes a lot of sense, but visualize it this way:
Hughes 7 IP, Reliever B 1 1P, Reliever A 1 IP.
Joba 7 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Reliever A 1 IP.
Wang 6-7 IP, Reliever C 1 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Reliever A 1 IP
Starter 4 5 IP, Reliever D 1 IP, Reliever C 1 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Reliever A 1 IP.
That’s what it looks like with Joba in the bullpen. As you can see, you really only need two or three reliable bullpen arms in that framework; you can even afford to blow a game (starter 4) if your bullpen is shallow, since chances are Joba and Wang match up really well against your opponents’ 2 and 3 starters.
If we place Joba in the bullpen, however…
Hughes 7 IP, Reliever B 1 1P, Joba 1 IP.
Wang 6-7 IP, Reliever C 1 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Joba 1 IP
Starter 3 5 IP, Reliever D 1 IP, Reliever C 1 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Joba 1 IP.
Starter 4 5 IP, Reliever D 1 IP, Reliever C 1 IP, Reliever B 1 IP, Joba 1 IP.
Clearly, Joba provides a big boon to the bullpen, making for an incredibly reliable ace reliever. Removing him from the rotation, however, you give up the probable 6-7 innings of dominance, and you *still* need to look for two other reliable bullpen arms *beside* Joba to make up for your 3rd and 4th starter being less reliable, instead of only needing to rely on one unreliable starter.
I am purposely exaggerating numbers here (it’s unlikely even for an ace starter to guarantee you 7 dominant innings today, and it’s not at all a given that Hughes and Chamberlain will even develop to be the two-headed ace we all hope they will). This exaggerated model is meant to demonstrate just how valuable another top-of-the-rotation starter can be, and just how that additional starter can ease a lot of the burden on your bullpen, allowing you to cobble together a less reliable bullpen (like Arizona’s was in 2001) without being punished as heavily.
Is anyone thinking that maybe we get Lincecum or Cain from SF and then flip him to be the centerpiece of the Santana trade? SF is looking for hitting so Matsui and prospects for Lincecum/Cain then which ever one + prospects (Kennedy?)for Santana. We can keep Hughes and Joba and still get Johan?
I don’t know, just thinking out loud.
Tomy,
Why get 18-21 wins from Santana for 20+ million a year, when you could get 15-19 wins from Lincecum or Cain at about 1/40 the cost? If the Yanks make a splash for Cain or Lincecum, I would hope they’d hold onto him.
Well I understand your point Scud, but the money issue does seem to bother the fans more than the owners. I don’t buy it for one second that Sanatan’s salary would stop the yanks from getting him.
But I don’t think that either of those two are going to win 15-19 games in their first year or even two in the American League. I know Santana can win in the American league that’s why I’d opt for him.
SJ44,
Unlike the Red Sox and their bullpen situation last year at this time, the Yanks have already seen most of these guys pitch. And it wasn’t pretty.
Last year Boston spent about $8mil to bring in Piniero, Donnelly, Okajima and Romero figuring if they threw enough guys against the wall a couple might stick.
To this point the Yanks havent brought in anybody new except Jonathan Albaladejo. They best hope Albaladejo turns into Okajima and the rest of that bunch improves dramaically. Is there a scarier thought than relying on Kyle Farnsworth?
@ Drive 4-5
Humberto Sanchez, Melancon, Cox, Robertson, Scott Patterson, Jeff Marquez, and Ross Ohlendorf.
Stop whining about the bullpen and learn those names. They are capable of being impact relievers for the Yanks this year. No more 3 year deals for crap. We build our own pen.
Good call on Patterson.
He is on the 40 man roster and was dominant in the minors. Among the others, he might be a sleeper.