Could Matsui be on the market?
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 06, 2007 
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Some Japanese reporters asked Brian Cashman if Hideki Matsui could be traded and he gave them a “no comment.”
There was a time such a question would have been dismissed. But Matsui is signed to a reasonable contract ($26 million over the next two seasons) and the Yankees could get creative with him. They can use Johnny Damon in left and the Big G as the DH.
The Giants, who are desperate for offense, are reportedly interested. It would probably take Matsui and something else (a prospect) to bring back one of their starters. Matsui isn’t getting Tim Lincecum. But could he be part of a larger trade that would include Matt Cain or Noah Lowry and relievers?
Matsui has a NTC but has said he would waive it if asked.
Other than Lincecum and Cain, who won’t go for Matsui, the Giants don’t have much to like.
Does some one have lowry’s numbers
I’m not sure Noah Lowry would be a solid pitcher in the AL East, but it would be nice to see him get a shot. We sure could use a lefthander in the rotation along with Pettite.
HA, I emailed Pete after the season was over asking this. Looks like I might be right.
I would not trade him for Lowry.
I think tradeing Godzilla would hurt the depth of our line up. I love Duncan and Sardinha, but they are no Matsui…
Era of 3.92, whip of 1.55
I don’t know…Lowry’s WHIP last year was 1.55. He did have a 3.97 ERA, but that may not hold up in the AL East.
3.92, sorry Mo.
No way do I trade Matsui & a prospect for Noah Lowry. He walks about 5 per 9. No thank you.
nooo
And Matsui is not dead weight. Take out the year he got hurt, and he’s never hit under .285, never had an obp under .350, had an ops under .855 once (rookie season), never been below 100 rbi’s , and only once under 100 runs (rookie). He had one bad month to end the year and suddenly all Yankee fans see him as dead weight. He was killing the ball when the Yanks got back into the race over the summer.
I heard some of the games that Lowry pitched in. He would be pitching brilliantly and then kind of lose it all together.
Matsui would waive his trade clause? Wow.
Matsui has a full no-trade clause. Would he want to go to San Fran?
Lowry would not fair well in the AL, he has a below average fastball and poor command.
What about this trade:
-Lincecum to yanks
-kennedy and matsui to giants
???
Noah Lowry would get lit up in the AL east. His career era is over 4 in the national league west, which is a pretty sad offensive division.
I really don’t want him going anywhere, at least not this year…. look into it next year when he’s in the last year of his deal.. depends on how much Jackson develops
I’d love to hear what the Dodgers might give up to reunite him with Torre.
Steve, thats a bad trade for us.. we’d need more
I don’t see that happening. I guess if the Giants were talking to the Blue Jays about a Lincicum-Rios deal, the Yankees can ask for him.
I wouldn’t trade for Noah Lowry unless the Twins said that’s a pitcher they would want to have. If that’s the case, you can revive the Santana talks.
Matsui may have said he would waive his no trade. However, until you see a guy actually do it, I’m skeptical.
NTC are put in deals because players don’t want to leave the team.
Steve M.
I know that IPK is not as touted as Lincecum, but he’s just as valuable. IPK and Matsui sounds like a huge mismatch that does not favor the Yankees. We’re talking about Godzilla here.
I absolutely would not trade Matsui for Lowry. I wouldn’t trade anyone for Lowry, really.
Trading hitting for pitching is ussualy ok with me… But the way the trade market is this year, I think it’ll take a good number of prospects along with Hideki to get any decent pitching back…
It would be bad from an Asia scouting POV if Matsui gets traded. That’s embarassing for him to be traded away from the Yankees. Plus, Igawa is not really panning out. And don’t forget the Irabu ordeal. Would this hurt the Yankees in the Japanese market? Esp when the Yankees are building a big Asian fan base with Matsui and Wang.
Matsui for Lowry? Hell no!!
Besides, why ship out Matsui and then lose Giambi (don’t think he’ll be re-signed). That’s a lot of wattage. Old wattage, but still.
Matsui has always had respect for the game. I think he probably realizes if he was asked to waive his NTC he would do so. It’d be tough to play for a team that doesn’t need your services any longer. It would be tough either way. Traded or Not. Even if speculation is brought up, I could see Mastsui being a little hurt. I mean, c’mon, the guy apologized to his teammates for getting injured. If that’s not class and respect, I don’t know what is. I’d hate to see him go. Although I DO like Damon in left.
Dear God I would love for the yankees to get their hands on Matt Kemp. Too bad the Dodgers don’t need another outfielder. I would trade Matsui to LA if we could get Either & LaRoche. Either provides a nice backup off the bench and LaRoche could convert to 1st since Arod is obviously there. LaRoche is a very prototypical yankee hitter, very patient, good power, decent glove at 3rd. Dodgers are low on him due to a few injuries last year, but I’d be in favor of getting my hands on him. You could possibly even squeeze another pitcher out of LA in a deal like that.
Well the Giants would LOVE for Matsui to be part of a deal for Noah Lowry, because Lowry stinks. Why don’t you just picture the soft tossing lefty walking to the mound for the Yankees in Fenway – if that image is a pleasant one to you then you’re either a Red Sox fan or hopped up on some funky meds.
There’s not doubt that his era would float up to at least 4.50 in the AL and there are plenty of crummy free agent starters who could do that and we would get to keep Matsui’s offensive production and Japanese revenues.
I think Matsui is twice as valuable to the Giants then Alex Rios. Rios might be a better player, but Matsui is an icon. And didn’t the Giants just lose their big draw?
Trading Matsui for anyone at this point would be a huge mistake, not with the regular season numbers he adds to the lineup and if someone goes down with an injury, we’re screwed. He is worth the money he’s paid, never complains and gives it his all every day. I think he will have a strong come back season this year.
Linecum will not last long as a starter. That’s a reason his name has come up in trades in the first place. as tough as good, young, cheap pitching is to get, why would the Giants move a starter for a bat. With that lineup, why would opposing pitchers even pitch to Rios?
Not to mention there’s no way Giambi goes injury free the whole year, leaving a big hole at DH.
Matusi can carry, and has carried the Yankees for months when he is on. He seemed to be rounding back into form later last season. With Detroit stacking the line-up, Boston ‘s line-up, not to mention Cleveland…not sure this is a good thing. We would have to get a bullpen closer type for this deal to make any sense- heir to Mo. Is this Ned Lowry that good?
The fans saved Hughes, they can save Matsui. Now Pavano and Jason? That’s another story.
What about this trade:
-Lincecum to yanks
-kennedy and matsui to giants
Hey Steve,
Why not throwing Hughes as well in that mix?
Lowry has played in interleague and held his own vs Toronto and NY so he wouldn’t be a bad option but I wouldn’t do it unless they throw in Jonathon Sanchez
The only way you trade Matsui (assuming he would waive his no trade) is for player(s) the Twins would want in a Santana trade.
Santana and Matsui make roughly the same amount of money in 2008.
If the Giants have player(s) that interest the Twins, its certainly another creative way to get the Santana talks going again.
Just trading Matsui to the Giants make little sense because the return isn’t going to be that great for the Yankees.
JCR,
Can’t do that, because Hughes would be shipped out to Oakland for Haren because he’s cheaper than Santana.
Matsui and a player for Broxton?
i would be open to trading Matsui, but not for Lowrey.
Matsui is still a highly productive player even with bad knees. Limiting his time in the field will prevent that from happening again. When people were freaking out about trying to replace Arod’s 50 homers and 120+ rbi, what about Matsui’s 20+ HR and 100+ rbi? His “slump” year still had value and even tho he was streaky, he was streaky at the right time carrying the Yanks in July and August.
Not for Lowry.
Lowry would be awful in the AL East. Matsui is good for 25 hrs and 100 rbis each year and is extremely clutch when not hurting. Plus, he exudes class and a sense of mature resposibility (who else apologizes for shattering his wrist?I know some no-nothings here and elsewhere bash him, but he is a very solid, clutch performer who is revered by his teammates. To trade him for Low-ry would be a travesty and just plain stupid.
12:10 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Left-handed reliever Ron Mahay has narrowed his choices down to the Royals and Yankees.
“The only way you trade Matsui (assuming he would waive his no trade) is for player(s) the Twins would want in a Santana trade.”
I agree…makes you want to think
Pick K.C., Ronnie. Pick K.C.
Ron Mahay would be a great addition. Hmmm Royals or Yankees…are you kidding me? he has to think about that?
• Left-handed reliever Ron Mahay has narrowed his choices down to the Royals and Yankees.
thats like narrowing down your vacation choices between paris and kalamazo…no offense to the jeters
Here is an example of where the game is, economically, today.
Ron Mahay has narrowed his choices to the Royals and Yankees.
The Royals have actually offered more money.
That means, either Mahay sacrifices some cash to play on a winner or, he takes the cash (a la Gil Meche) and goes to KC.
You want to know why money matters to the Yankees? All this revenue sharing money they put into the pool each year funds its competitors.
That’s why the Royals and other teams can spend what they are spending.
Something to think about when folks go off on another rant wondering why the Yankees can’t keep jacking up the payroll each year.
what if the yankees traded matsui and signed Fukudome?
how would everyone feel then about trading Matsui?
KC’s finally starting to spend a little money, and now, they’re like drunken sailors on their first overseas liberty.
Did the Yankees offer him 3 years $12 million? Isn’t he only a lefty specialist?
How about Wang and Matsui for Lincecum
I personally don’t think it would be a smart financial move for the yankees to get rid of Matsui. That kills their foreign (Japanese) market and all those contracts for the YES network.
I don’t know the actual figures but Im sure that the yankees derive a substantial amount of money from Japanse markets and almost all of that is because of Matsui.
….and we pick up some of Matsui’s coin.
migames
December 6th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
“The only way you trade Matsui (assuming he would waive his no trade) is for player(s) the Twins would want in a Santana trade.â€
I agree…makes you want to think
___________________________________________________-
The Giants don’t have anything anybody wants except for Cain and Linecum.
“How about Wang and Matsui for Lincecum”
I can’t tell if this is a joke, racist or just dumb.
I agre with SJ. Trading Matsui to get Santana frees up the payroll and saves one of the kids from going to MN.
Steve M
December 6th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Lowry would not fair well in the AL, he has a below average fastball and poor command.
What about this trade:
-Lincecum to yanks
-kennedy and matsui to giants
???
It would take more than Matsui & Kennedy for Lincecum, IMO. I don’t agree with it, but from what I read and hear from some people I know in SF, the Giants are ga-ga over this kid.
One of my friends said the words, “multiple Cy Youngs” when talking of Lincecum…
I agree with the general sentiment on this board that Lowry would get lit up in the AL East.
I think it would be refreshing to see someone take less to play in New York. People do it all the time to play in Boston.
Why is it dumb? Wang is a 19 game winner, and Matsui is the offense they need.
Why would that be a joke?
hmmm – I would still have reservations… as I have no info on how well Fukudome’s skills translates to the MLB – is he another Suzuki? or Kaz Matsui? At the moment, I’d stick to Matsui who I know will produce 20+ HR and 100+ RBI.
If we get Lincecum great now all we need is Kazmir right?
Hey Ron, choose KC please. Just what we don’t need, another old, one good season, overpaid reliever.
“I don’t know the actual figures but Im sure that the yankees derive a substantial amount of money from Japanse markets and almost all of that is because of Matsui.”
Didnt someone say the other day that it was around 4 to 5 million a year?
• Word is the Nationals are close to signing Aaron Boone.
Because Lincecum is not worth a two time 19 game winner maybe??
“Why is it dumb? Wang is a 19 game winner, and Matsui is the offense they need.
Why would that be a joke?”
Its dumb because a competing team isn’t going to swap an above average starter and a solid corner OF for a pitcher with less than 200 major league innings. Its not even a matter of Lincecum being worth that or not, its just not something the Yankees would do.
Patrick,
It wouldn’t be a joke for San Francisco. It’d be a joke for us. We lose the winningest pitcher in the last two years and a good bat. Lincecum may be a phenom, we have phenoms of our own. From what I hear, they’re coveted and they’re pretty good.
“How about Wang and Matsui for Lincecum….and we pick up some of Matsui’s coin.”
No!
Lincecum is worth a 19 game winner with a 19 ERA in the playoffs and a 2 runs ERA difference in Home and Away stats.
Chris Russo is on the SF sports talk station, KNBR 680, completely trashing the prospective Lincecum-for-Alex-Rios trade. He’s saying he’ll renounce his love for the Giants if the trade happens and stop watching Giants games at 2:00am. Blah blah blah. But I think he’s right about the trade.
How about Wang and Matsui for Lincecum
Put the pipe down. Wang is the most consistant pitcher on the team, not to mention the best starter that we have. Why would we trade him?
Its a sad state of affairs when we’re on the same level as the Royals.
I actually like Mahay for the role he would have with the Yankees. Lefty specialist.
He was overused in Texas. Everytime he would get on a nice roll, they would overuse him and he would get belted around.
Used more intelligently by people who knew what they were doing, he would be a good lefty specialist.
Age means nothing with lefty specialists because don’t throw as many innings as other relief pitchers.
The Yankees are going to have to go outside the organization to get a lefty specialist.
Unless, of course, folks are happy with Sean Henn in that role.
Linceum isn’t as good a pitcher as Wang. Trading BOTH Wang and Matsui for him makes no sense.
Its another example of folks buying hype or figuring a bad post-season means the a pitcher is not any good.
Wang has won more games than Santana the last two years. Plus, he’s an innings eater on a staff with few innings eaters.
Let’s not totally discount him off a bad post-season. Not the way to evaluate a player.
Patrick Bateman
December 6th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Lincecum is worth a 19 game winner with a 19 ERA in the playoffs and a 2 runs ERA difference in Home and Away stats.
——-
if you’re going to use that logic – why not include Arod as well… and pay for some of his “coin” too?
Put the pipe down. Wang is the most consistant pitcher on the team, not to mention the best starter that we have. Why would we trade him?
—————–
Because he’s not a top of the rotation starter. Watch the 2007 ALDS again on video and tell me that you wouldn’t trade Wang for Lincecum.
“Its a sad state of affairs when we’re on the same level as the Royals.”
this makes no sense.
I’m reading that the Giants aren’t sold on Lincecum’s durability, and if they are willing to trade him straight up for Alex Rios, then I gotta think they would do the same for Matsui. Plus, I know the Giants are looking to tap into the Pacific-Asian Market for its fan base and marketing opportunities. Rumor had it when Ichiro was available, they were going to throw every possible dollar at him. Matsui is not a bad backup plan, especially at his price.
And what makes it even worse is that KC is spending its money the wrong way, overpaying for mediocre players that then in turn jacks up the overall market.
Perhaps that is the only way they can get any free agents to come to KC but they are part of the problem not part of the solution.
Also unless it was in another thread the Andruw JOnes thing.Boras told everyone he would get a 5 year deal so he gets 2 years at 15 mill per makes the Abreau option at 16 pretty darn good.
Hmmm–Fukudome would be a good acquisition. He has drawn comparisons to Abreu. That’s not bad.
yeah Mahay please choose KC, take the money..I read the book already you come to NY and pitch like crap. the yanks waste 3 yrs 12 mill on a 4 + ERA..
Save the grief go to KC, please…
Hey, SJ44, thanks for responding to my post on the other thread.
I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.
But as I wrote– while I applaud Cashman’s strategic vision– I have little faith in his execution of it. In particular, I distrust his evalutaion of pitching, in general, and starting pitching, in particular.
Cashman’s record on starting pitcher leaves much to be desired. Perhaps, he’s better at evaluating the guys he himself played a role in selecting. But that remains to be seen.
When he says thing like, “You grow attached to your guys [Hughes, etc.]†I’m become concerned he can’t appraise them rationally.
In rational choice theory, the fallacy is called the endowment effect. Some guy on Kellerman’s show mentioned it yesterday and I looked it up.
Definition: “People place a higher value on objects they own relative to objects they do not.†For example, You demand $7.00 for other to purchase the coffee mug you yourself would only pay $3.50 to acquire.
I don’t know whether Cashman has succumbed to it with Hughes. But it’s something to think about.
Because Arod isn’t the starting pitcher who put two games in a five game series out of reach.
SJ44,
OK I’ll give you a nod on your Mahay points, but 4 years, $14 mill? Do you think he’s worth that?
They are at the “same level” as the Royals because of revenue sharing.
Still want a 220 million dollar payroll? Well, you will compete with everybody for players.
Get the payroll down to 150-160, you limit the amount you pay into the revenue sharing pool, and limit your competitors for players.
Its the economic reality of baseball. Something fans need to become more aware of because it will help them better understand the decisionmaking that takes place with the Yankees.
Patrick Bateman
December 6th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Because Arod isn’t the starting pitcher who put two games in a five game series out of reach.
———–
no he’s a hitter who had all of one RBI in the entire series.
matsui stays a Yank umless this a segway to another trade. No way the Giants give up Lincecum in a Matsui deal. Yanks are not trading both Wang and Matsui for Lincecum…and Lincecum will cost the Yanks a boat load of players…..Alex Rios won’t net you Lincecum, why do you think MAtsui will?
please go to Royals Mahay
SJ-
He was overused in Texas. Everytime he would get on a nice roll, they would overuse him and he would get belted around.
————–
Good thing Torre’s gone, eh?
lowry stinks. if we trade matsui we better get something a lot better than noah lowry.
SJ 44 a lefty specialist is nice to have but there have been very few recently..
Marte is a better option then Mahay…..
Marte is cheaper but will cost some prospects I do that over Mahay, I just do not like guys who pitch well e=very 3 yrs or so…..
How do we even know Lowry is the guy being targeted in SF? Pete thought so and that was my first intuition, but who knows? It could be part of a bigger deal for Lincecum (highly doubtful — SF loves that kid and he’s the real deal) or for a collection of prospects to be spun off in another deal.
I like Matsui – but I’m certainly amenable to his being traded. He offers no defense, a consistent bat, and a pretty expensive contract for someone who’ll be sharing time at DH and spelling Damon in LF. Considering Tabata and Jackson are slated to take over for Matsui and Abreu (with Melky moving to RF), I don’t think trading Matsui is a bad idea… obviously dependent on the return. I think if Matsui gets traded, the Yankees will likely make a move for a 1B to ensure depth and provide insurance should Giambi remain stagnant and injury-prone at DH.
Loyalty is a great thing, and Matsui was a fantastic player for us (and still might be). But getting younger, less expensive, and more flexible means getting rid of the older, more expensive players who are limited in their capacity. I like the move.
I’m reading that the Giants aren’t sold on Lincecum’s durability, and if they are willing to trade him straight up for Alex Rios, then I gotta think they would do the same for Matsui.
———
HAHA. Timmy Lincecum would be like trading Hughes or Chamberlain for Matsui. Would you trade a broken down LF with bad knees for Chamberlain or Hughes and put him in a league with no DH? Come on.
matsui and alan horne for tim lincecum? I’d do it.
Gayle – Andruw Jones is making 18milper.
I’d love to Lincecum him from SF
The Giants would never trade Lincecum straight up for Rios or Matsui and if they were they would take A Rios………..
Patrick Bateman, I agree Wang is not a 19 game winner on most other teams in the league.
I still have a hard time believing the Yanks would give up Wang and a bat like Matsui as two established big leaguers for Lincecum.
As Mister Delaware (I believe) said, it isn’t that Lincecum isn’t worth that, it is that the Yankees won’t do it.
For all the hype, Lincecum has a far too short track record to make such a deal.
I don’t believe that’s the deal the Yankees have on the table for him.
He is going to have to take less to play in NY.
Will he? No idea.
Patrick, do yourself a favor and not discuss players.
If you are going to base evaluations on two post-season starts, and determine a guy can’t pitch, you don’t know anything about baseball.
You would be trading one of your leading RBI guys AND a guy who has won more games than anybody in the AL for the last two years, for a pitcher who has shown nothing yet.
Stick to your day job.
When your ERA is 19 in the playoffs, Babe Ruth and Roger Maris wouldn’t save Wang.
Good pitcher, in a 3 or 4 role. 19 game winner on the Yankees, 13-14 game winner anywhere else.
SJ
Yankees will always have to pay a boatload of revenue sharing regardless of what their payroll is.
I still love the Wanger.
Don’t forget he pitched well in Game 2 of the ’05 ALDS. His line: 6.67 innings, 1 ER, 4 hits, O BB, 1 SO, 1 HR. (That was the year he only pitched 116 inning because of shoulder soreness)
Don’t discount the possibility he was tired by the end of the season in ’06 and ’07. Wang mayove the exception to the rule that a sinkerball pitcher benefits from fatigue.
I wonder if he wasn’t overthrowing to compensate, thus keeping his ball up in the zone.
Matsui and Kennedy for Lincecum.
2 post season starts?
How about having an ERA in the 2′s at home and close to a 5 ERA on the road for the regular season?
That would be great if we played every game at Yankee Stadium.
Stuart,
Marte isn’t cheaper unless the Pirates come off their demands.
I don’t think the Yankees want to give up Alan Horne and Jose Tabata for Damaso Marte.
If its just a money transaction, its easier for them to make. Especially, if its a deal within logical parameters.
“When your ERA is 19 in the playoffs, Babe Ruth and Roger Maris wouldn’t save Wang.
Good pitcher, in a 3 or 4 role. 19 game winner on the Yankees, 13-14 game winner anywhere else.”
You are entitled to your own opinion but to declare this is nuts.
So, P. bateman, you want to unload wang over two bad games? Did you want Pettitte gone after a couple of his post season bombs, too?
GreenBeret7 December 6th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
KC’s finally starting to spend a little money, and now, they’re like drunken sailors on their first overseas liberty.
Hey ground-pounder, watch the anti-sailor stereotypes please.
(LCDR, USN, 1977-2001).
“Watch the 2007 ALDS again on video and tell me that you wouldn’t trade Wang for Lincecum.”
Ok. No, I wouldn’t.
how about lowery Phil Hughes for santana
Pat,
Not true. The threshold changes each year. If the payroll was closer to 150, their share of the pool would be significantly less.
They have paid out over 100 million dollars in revenue sharing and luxury tax money the last two years. Just insane and can’t keep up, IMO.
If we got Lincecum, we would have two pitchers nicknamed “the Franchise”.
Joba should have that nickname anyway.
“Don’t forget he pitched well in Game 2 of the ‘05 ALDS. ”
didn’t Wang get the win in Game 1 of the ’06 ALDS as well?
Lincecum’s arm is gonna fall off in the not too distant future.
Watch the 2007 ALDS again on video and tell me that you wouldn’t trade Wang for Lincecum.â€
Ok. No, I wouldn’t.
———
Then you’re a homer.
Ron Guidry is a GREAT, GREAT guy. I’ve met him about three times and once had a fifteen minute conversation with him in Spring Training at the Yankees’ old Loxahachee Stadium in FT. Lauderdale.
However, I don’t know if Guidry was the best pitching coach in the world, especially for a sinkerball pitcher like Wang. Wang might have benefitted more from another sinkerballer like Stottlemeyer advising him. Stottlemeyer told FranDog that from what he saw Wang’s sinker pitch was moving more side-to-side last year instead of down.
Perhaps, Eiland will help him.
Yes…the ONLY way I like this is if Matsui goes away and we get Santana AND Hughes and IPK stay Yankees. Although I really do like Matsui.
He’s not a homer. He just understands baseball a little better than you.
Tommy – we could call them the “Fran-tri” … TM
SJ
Revenue Sharing is not contingent on payroll. I think you are confusing it with luxury tax.
Yanks paid 71 million in revenue sharing in 2006 and 30 million in luxury tax. The luxury tax number would go away if payroll was under 150 million but the revenue sharing stays the same.
Yamks don’t have to pay the revenue sharing money while they build the new stadium though because thae revenue sharing money can be applied to the build.
P. Bateman, this is looking more and more like an ethnic dislike than a sensible trade suggestion. Wang had two bad PS games, but, his first three were good. He won the only 2006 PS game. Matsui is far from a broken down bum with knee problems. He had knee surgery…a knee that he hurt in April and continued playing. That doesn’t make him injury prone.
baka, I admire you’re creativity there.
Not sure Lowry & Hughes for Santana gets it done, but I think that would be closer to a deal than the Yanks and Twins have come in reality.
But it STILL does NOT work, here’s why:
Matsui and a lower prospect for Lowry.
Lowry, Hughes and Melky for Santana and a prospect?
Then you’re esstentially trading:
Matsui
Hughes
Melky
a lower prospect
for
Santana
a prospect
NO
I really do not think that the Yanks would trade Matsui. He seems to be on the decline a little bit but the Yanks make a lot of money by having him here. I would be open to trading him but only if it brings back a really good pitcher. Otherwise it is not worth it. If the Yanks shed his $13m then can they “afford” Santana?
How about matsui, kennedy and throw in Mussina for lincecum. Mussina can’t pitch in the AL anymore but he could still be fairly dominate in the NL.
How about Matsui and Chris Britton for Brad Hennessey, Noah Lowry and Jonathan Sanchez.
If you wouldnt trade Wang for Lincecum then you need help…..That will never happen……Lincecum has as much if not more value then Hughes
Yes…the ONLY way I like this is if Matsui goes away and we get Santana AND Hughes and IPK stay Yankees. Although I really do like Matsui.
——–
Get Santana, keep Hughes and Kennedy? How you gonna pull that off Cashman Jr?
WANG’S start in Game 2 of the ’05 ALDS was on the road.
BTW, Andy Pettite, for all his reputation as a great big-game pitcher, has had some wretched post-season outings as well.
Don’t extrapolate Wang’s post-season potential solely from ’07.
Anyone who wouldn’t trade Matsui for Lincecum is straight up insane.
The Giants would never agree to this but if some how they did that has to be done instantly.
If you wouldnt trade Wang for Lincecum then you need help…..That will never happen……Lincecum has as much if not more value then Hughes
———
One person here with a brain.
Pat,
Correct. I have juxtapositioned the two.
GreenBeret7, I agree on your analysis of the players (wanger and matsui)… I don’t think that b/c P Bateman wants to trade them that it has anything to do with race/ethnicity.
Like evil Theo Epstein said, ‘I think that says more about you than it does about me/Patrick Bateman’.
Patrick,
You may have valid points, but your proposal would have to be for one or the other. Not both to SF for a rookie pitcher.
No more old one year wonder pitchers. NO MAHAY.
Crap if they want to roll the dice. Why not try Igawa in that roll and not pay our 2 or 3 years for an old bad track record reliever. Whats the worse that can happen, he bombs we send him back to the minors.
Im tired of these relievers failures and us having to watch them for another couple years till the end of their contract.
If Rios can get Lincecem, Why not Matsui. Matsui brings them good numbers and fan base. I say Matsui,Wright and Desalvo for Lincecem.
Yanksrule57
December 6th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
GreenBeret7 December 6th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
KC’s finally starting to spend a little money, and now, they’re like drunken sailors on their first overseas liberty.
Hey ground-pounder, watch the anti-sailor stereotypes please.
(LCDR, USN, 1977-2001).
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No problem. Would fun loving, slightly inebriated gobs be better?
Wang was the Yankees best starting pitcher last year (most wins, best era, best baa, and whip) and eats 200 innings a year, all while missing the first few games due to a hamstring injury.
Anyone with any brains is not trading this guy, no matter what he did in the post season. C’mon people.
PB in DC you keep melkey anyway the twins don’t want him
There are more people in here with a brain Patrick.
Unfortunately, you aren’t one of them.
Have fun in Fantasyland.
matsui and horne for cain?
“You want to know why money matters to the Yankees? All this revenue sharing money they put into the pool each year funds its competitors.”
the yankees should threaten to pull a marlins like fire sale and sink half the league if the league doesn’t lighten up on revenue sharing. i personally hate having to buy the extra innings package( because i am outside the yankee area) and then have that money go to the pool that is divided up equally. why can’t a yankee fan simply purchase yes network wherever they are in the country and have that money go directly to the yes network and the yankees?
revenue sharing is the new reality, and it does penalize the teams that do a good job with attendance . other teams like the red sox will start to complain at some point. i’m not sure what the big market teams can do because it’s a majority vote the way things are set up; there’s simply more small market teams than big market teams.
Well if we’re going to go all out for Linecum, how about Jeter Posada and Rodriguez for Linecum. They sucked it up big time in October, right Patrick Bateman?
You’re not gonna get Timmy Lincecum for Matsui straight up. Never, ever, never, ever, ever, never.
Would you trade Hughes for Matsui? No you wouldn’t. So don’t expect the Giants to take our beat up aging players and give up a top prospect pitcher in return.
New rumor, new team, new poster comes to talk baseball. And then we the group doesn’t agree with their opinion out come the insults. sigh.
Chris, Wanger was good but not great in Game 1 of the ’06 ALDS.
6.67 Innings, 3 ER, 8 Hits, 1 BB, 4 SO, 1 HR
And he actually was responsible for a fourth run in the 7th inning, although the stats attribute it to Myers.
Good but not great. But still, I think it makes the point not to rely overmuch on Wanger’s 07 ALDS performance to draw definitive conclusions.
Knowing what we do now, in a fantasy draft (not fantasy baseball, fantasy as in the opposite of reality), I’d take Lincecum over Hughes… not by much, but I would.
If for no other reason than he is a year or two ahead of Hughes developmentally.
Nud do you agree? Patrick Bateman do you agree?
O, mighty SJ, do you agree?
Or two people without one. Guess it all depends on your POV.
baka, my point was that you’d most likely need to add something to Lowry & Hughes to get Santana… that is the Twins biggest/only chip and they have a glaring need in CF.
Matsui,Horne,Marquez for Lincecum.
All of this trade talk regarding Wang reminds me of all the trade talk regarding Cano in the beginning of the past season.
Wang may not be an “ace” but the idea that he’s now become disposable is ridiculous.
As if its just a snap to find someone who can throw 200 innings and pitch to an ERA+ of 1.21.
The Yanks need Wang for his innings. I doubt that he gets traded. Lincecum only pitched 146 innings last season.
linecum or cain?
PB in DC, I would take Lincecum in a draft over Hughes.
Better natural stuff. He throws high 90′s-100.
Lincecum is 5’11″, 170 and reportedly throws 96-99 mph. I can’t imagine that will keep up for too long before he needs a new arm.
I wish Giambi would waive his NTC. NO to trading Matsui. ESPECIALLY for Lowry. Thats just a terrible.
I’ll ask again b/c I’m very curious to see what you think:
Knowing what we do now, in a fantasy draft (not fantasy baseball, fantasy as in the opposite of reality), I’d take Lincecum over Hughes… not by much, but I would.
If for no other reason than he is a year or two ahead of Hughes developmentally.
Nud do you agree? Patrick Bateman do you agree?
O, mighty SJ, do you agree?
Don’t forget the New York City factor
Or the Asia-side marketing that you’d lose ($$$ people, $$$!)
Virginia,
Jones just got 18 million for 2 years from the Dodgers for a .220 batting average and you think 13 million for Matsui is too much ? Er, no !
By the way, he does provide defense and plays a good left field. In case you’ve not been told this before, he needed knee surgery to repair his bad knee this off season, thus one of the reasons he couldn’t cover as much ground and run as fast this year. His bat always will be worth his price and is the reason he gets paid what he does.
PB, it’s rather difficult to tell, since those are the only wo he wants gone. Two of the best producers on the team, and he wants them traded for two games and one injury that’s been corrected? Why not unload Damon, or Jeter, who had a done year and has slipped dramatically on defense?
PB in DC, how do you figure he’s a year or two ahead of Hughes?
PB,
I wouldn’t because Lincecum’s frame scares the daylights out of me. I think Hughes is the better prospect over the long haul.
Everytime I see Lincecum pitch, I think he has Dr. Andrews number in his five.
I like power pitchers who are bigger and thicker. They usually last longer.
Hughes delivery is also more fluid. Lincecum has so much tork in his delivery, I can see why Brian Sabean is shopping him.
He’s probably hoping the hype can bring him more before he breaks down.
E-roc,
That’s right. So instead of having 3/5 of your rotation on innings limit, you’d have 4/5 of your rotation that won’t be able to pitch the whole year and possibly into the postseason.
Jon,
Admittedly, I don’t know much about Lincecum, but Cain pitched well at times.
I’ll take 6’5 220 over 5’11 170.
On trading Wang and Matsui – they are the cornerstones of the yankees asia strategy.
If you think that doesn’t matter to the yankees you are crazy.
They’re value to the franchise surpasses just what you see on the field.
You might not like that but it’s a reality.
Wang and Matsui are two of the most famous people in their respective countries.
With Matsui’s marketing money he only really costs the yanees $8-9 million. And he developing their brand in Japan. And he has a no trade.
I think most of you would agree that this team doesn’t need a dramatic overhaul… it needs one more front-end starting pitcher… and some useful arms in the bullpen… that’s it.
So what I’m saying is, the talk about sending Matsui out of town is only worthwhile if it addresses that main need (a 1 or 2 starting pitcher).
Lowry doesn’t fit that bill. If they’re getting lowry to improve a package to get a Santana or something like that, then I’m curious. Otherwise, why trade him?
Why the hell would we trade Matsui? The most consistent performer on our team?
I will be irate if I have to hear about us trading Matsui to the Giants. Not only do we lose a lot of credibility with Japanese baseball, but it will be difficult to more easily lure other Japanese players to the Yankees, rather than other clubs.
Matsui is a superstar. We may not realize it in America, but the man is enormous in Japan. He’s like the Orioles trading Cal Ripken or the Yanks selling Babe back to the Sox after he’s hit 600 home runs. How do you respect the team after that? That’s how Japanese Yankee fans will feel.
Godzilla must stay. You want to trade an outfielder? Trade Damon. Or Melky. Don’t trade the best we have.
Lincecum is a max effort pitcher. His arm is gonna come flying off. Homer Bailey was similarly, but not as extremely, high effort and his velocity was way down this past year.
“PB in DC, I would take Lincecum in a draft over Hughes.
Better natural stuff. He throws high 90’s-100.”
Why was Lincecum only drafted #11 in the draft if he has such great natural stuff?
Do scouts not have a radar gun?
Lincecum is a better prospect than any of our big 3. Matsui is a slow, slightly above average corner OFer with questionable defense entering his mid-30s signed to a fairly large contract.
Matsui + Kennedy MIGHT be something SF would think about but it would only be the starting point for negotiations if it wasn’t just flat out refused(much more likely.)
I read that Rolen is asking for a trade. How about trading Melky for him. Having Rolen play first(less wear and tear)and signing Camaron to play center? We play Damon their till his 25 game suspension is up. We get 2 right handed bats in the lineup. Great defense and more power.
i love hideki, but getting a pitcher back would be great. if the yankees are able to deal matsui and pick up fukodome in the process i think it would be a good move
I would trade Matsui for a bat boy. Sorry folks, I just dont like him in the line up. Let the insults begin.
When watching Linecum pitch, I think of Smoltz, Roger Pavlik, Dontrelle Willis and Jim Bouton. Guys with violent deliveries. It hurts to watch them through.
Matsui for Cain is very appealing to me. Cain will be a stud.
This also lowers payroll. OF course, it may have top be offset by an Aaron Rowand signing (or, even better, a Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier trade)
raymagentic, He pitched just under 150 IP in 2007… don’t you agree that Hughes will be asked to pitch about that this next year?
Combine that with the fact that he is 2 years older than Hughes and you can reasonably say that Lincecum is 1-2 years ahead of him.
no?
(not adamantly arguing with you raymagentic, but don’t you agree?)
“Lincecum is a better prospect than any of our big 3.”
Not true. Joba is better. Everyone has concerns about lincecum’s frame and long term injuries. Joba is the prototypical power pitcher.
He also has better command.
But the grass is always greener…
and by getting a pitcher i meant linecum or cain
Why was Lincecum only drafted #11 in the draft if he has such great natural stuff?
——-
Why did Rick Porcello go #27 last year when he was the number 1 pitcher in the draft?
I actually agree with Patrick’s assessment of Wang (13 game winner elsewhere, really a #3), its just that contenders don’t trade those players. If it were Matsui and a prospect, that would make sense given we have in house replacements for Matsui. I think everyone here would love to have Lincecum, its just that Wang wouldn’t be the bait.
“And he actually was responsible for a fourth run in the 7th inning, although the stats attribute it to Myers.”
wow, Wang was responsible for a solo HR that Myers gave up to Granderson?
maybe we *should* trade him. he makes other pitchers suck in the playoffs too.
By the by, the worries about Lincecum’s frame are the reasons I like Sabathia over Santana. A guy “listed” at 6’0 who relies on power stuff and has four straight 200 IP seasons worries me quite a bit.
Doesn’t his delivery remind u of Oswalt?
“Why the hell would we trade Matsui? The most consistent performer on our team?”
huh?
Vinny,
I did hear about Matsui’s knee surgery and I’m glad it went well. Do knee surgeries improve arm strength, add years to one’s life?
I am not, REPEAT, am not, disparaging Matsui. I love him. He was great to the Yankees and he’s just a fantastic player. I am, however, advocating a younger, less expensive team with players who have the flexibility to play better than average defense (what Matsui plays, with a healthy knee). The Yankees problem is that we consistently sign players, aging players, to expensive contracts that make them all but unmoveable. Then, we have to either wait until the contract runs out OR essentially pay other teams to take these players.
Trade Matsui – get back some pitching. Then, go out and get a 1B who can play solid defense and contribute with the bat. Next year, decline Abreu’s option, wish Giambi, Pavano, and Mussina farewells… and begin developing offensive youth.
And, why are some so hostile do different ideas about the direction of the Yankees? Vinny, advocating a different path and expressing a preference about players isn’t akin to a personal attack on Matsui or you. So, chill.
Porcello went 27th because his agent is Boras.
Hughes is a better pitcher than Lincecum. thebaseballcube.com has Lincecum listed at 5’10 and 155lbs. I’m 6’2 175 and I don’t think I have any business playing MLB. Even if he makes it up to 170, there’s just no way he can keep that velocity up without getting seriously injured. He’s got to put way too much into it in his delivery to maintain velocity.
Sorry, but Hughes has excellent mechanics and I see him as a better pitcher now and in the long-term.
I also see Joba as better, and Ian slightly below Lincecum in the short-term, but in the long term.. he will be better.
Just to clear up some things:
1- Porcello was not the best pitcher in the draft. That honor went to one David Price of Venderbilt.
2- Porcello is a Boras client. Lincecum, to the best of my knowledge, is not.
3- Signability was a concern with Porcello. not so with Lincecum.
4- Health was a concern with Lincecum. Not so with Porcello.
hmmm,
Too funny!
Wow. I’ve been drinking too much Big 3 Koolaid.
SJ, I agree with you re: size and frame of Hughes over the 5’11 Lincecum. Also agree about the conventional wisdom when it comes to Lincecum’s delivery etc.
But you’re going down the durability road there, aren’t you? Or, said another way, the predictibility of durability (I might change my screen name to that, lol).
To this point, can you really make a strong case for Hughes in this regard?
SoS27, you’re talking about adding 26 million a year for 2-3 years and not even sure that Rolen can play first and picking up a clubhouse problem besides.
Yankees won’t be contenders this year, as painful as it is to say.
You can’t expect to contend with 3/5ths of the rotation as 1st year players. These guys won’t be able to go 200 innings. Cashman tried to make a transition overnight from vets to kids. Can’t do that. Thats why Lilly should have been signed last year over Igawa. So this year we’d have 3 vets, and could mix in the 3 kids in the last 2 spots.
2008- Rebuilding like 2006 Red Sox.
2009- Contend
“I actually agree with Patrick’s assessment of Wang (13 game winner elsewhere, really a #3)”
I’d be interested in seeing who these #3′s are?
How many #3 starters have had an ERA+ of more than 120 in each of the past two years?
I wouldn’t trade Wang for Lincecum, call me homer if you want… Wanger is better than “good”. He clearly had some sort of problem by the end of the year as he didn’t pitch well since mid september… I don’t know maybe something in his finger nail was hurting his sinker.
“raymagentic, He pitched just under 150 IP in 2007… don’t you agree that Hughes will be asked to pitch about that this next year?
Combine that with the fact that he is 2 years older than Hughes and you can reasonably say that Lincecum is 1-2 years ahead of him.
no?
(not adamantly arguing with you raymagentic, but don’t you agree?)”
No, I don’t agree with you. At most he is maybe half a year ahead of him due to the time that Hughes missed. Hughes was pitching in the minors for 3+ years which is the equivalent or possibly even greater than pitching in college ball for four years.
Secondly, Lincecum pitches in the inferior league as well. Not to mention Hughes playoff resume, albeit brief as it is. I honestly can’t say Lincecum a year ahead of Hughes and definitely not two.
In fairness, there was a bit of a followers mentality on Lincecum. He and Kershaw were the two highest upside arms but the new fear of H.S. pitchers (Moneyball envy) and of Lincecum’s mechanics led to 5 pitchers going ahead of those two.
(general question to those who want to trade Matsui)If you trade Matsui, then what’s your plan to restore your reputation/marketing clout in Japan?
Professional baseball is not just the game played on the field. It’s also a business.
Why exactly would we need to sign Rowand? Matsui is our dh, Damon is our lf’er.
“Yankees won’t be contenders this year, as painful as it is to say.”
And … you lost me.
I think Wang could win MORE games with another team. Jeter isn’t exactly a defensive genius in short. A-Rod is a good, but not spectacular 3B. If we went to a team with an outstanding defensive infield that would help him a lot.
Yeah, mel, I hear that re: big 3 kool aid… luckily for me, it is a bit too sweet for my taste. Like pineapple or most dessert wines. haha
I hope that they keep Matsui. Aside from being my favorite Yankee, with a runner on third and less than two outs he leads the majors in getting that runner home. I read somewhere that he does it something like over 85 percent of the time. Maybe someone can fact check that. But he is a smart, talented, team player. He would be missed.
Only thing that is a question with Lincecum is his size….he is small, but I watched most of his starts last year and he had amazing stuff….a great fastball and a sick hook….He is known as a freak of nature because he NEVER ices his arm after starts, he’s been doing this his whole life………He is a freak!!!!
The Giants arent trading him unless they get blown away
Lincecum being drafted #11 was not an issue of signability at all.
Teams knew what kind of arm he had. They didn’t think he’d stay healthy over time and thought he was too raw.
And he’s still too raw. He walked 4 hitters per 9 innings.
Hard to win walking that many even if you twirl around and throw 100.
“Yankees won’t be contenders this year, as painful as it is to say.”
i disagree.
it depends how you define “contend”.
are the yankees the favorites in the East? no.
is it likely that they will win at least 90 games? yes, it is likely.
that, to me, is contending.
it may not be contending in the sense of “anything short of a WS is a failure”, but the 2008 Yankees are going to be a good team.
Sorry,I would expect the Cardinals to pik up some of the bill. Rolen is a gold glove third baseman. I cant immagine him not being able to handly first. If we can get him for 10 mil a year and save our prospects. I pull the trigger.
Again,firstbase would probably keep him mor durable.
Lincecum’s mechanics suggests many visits with Dr. Andrews. He’ll be very familiar with Birmingham, Alabama.
“2008- Rebuilding like 2006 Red Sox.”
The Red Sox didn’t rebuild in 2006 at all. They tried to win the division with a veteran team and fell apart after that 5 game sweep the yankees pulled off.
They didn’t rebuild anything. They had an old team. They lost with it.
That’s not rebuilding. It’s just not being that good.
“He would be missed.”
Anyone with eyes can see that Matsui has not been the same since his injury. It startled him, he’s timid, he swings at bad pitches, he gets down on himself (in his own silent Japanese way).
I want him out.
CB the Giants also rushed him a bit. I think he only pitched 60 innings in the minors. They didn’t exactly give him time to develop.
raymagentic, how many innings do you expect the Yankees to want out of Hughes at the start of the 2008 season? Honestly?
Also, last year Hughes was 1 of 6-7 starters (add Clippard, Delsavo, Rasner’s 6 starts each and you a “7th”) for the yanks, no? Lincecum started 24 games for the Giants.
I call 3 years of amateur vs 4 years of college a wash.
I call pitching in the NL vs pitching in the AL AT THIS POINT IN THEIR CAREERS a wash. They’ll both have steep learning curves, no?
Therefore I am VERY comfortable saying Lincecum is a SOLID year ahead of Hughes…
but, alas, we are splitting hairs here a bit.
I have to go in a few minutes, unfortunately.
What stinks is that SF is barren talent wise. There’s not much to trade that would be equal value for Matsui.
Cain or Linceum are pipe dreams for Matsui. If you think that deal can happen, then you have no idea how baseball works these days.
I would hate to trade Matsui for SF prospects, unless it was a 3 way deal and those prospects are the pieces that are going to help us get a good starter or a top bullpen arm.
Short of that, I hang on to him.
It’s too bad Pittsburgh is such a joke of a franchise, they have a slew of LH starting pitching and/or Marte who it’d be nice to trade Matsui with.
I don’t give him away for nothing though.
If healthy, he’s good for 30HR and 100rbi. That’s always worth a lot in this league. Just not A list cost controlled premium prospects.
Does anyone know if Wangs nail will be something that will continue to give problems?
Can someone tell me when players from the minors that move up start getting paid the big bucks(i.e.Cano,Wang).Thanks.
Sj if the Pirates wanted horne and Tabata for Marte they are delusional… Maybe that is why Pittsburgh stinks…..
SH+J I am not aware of these trade proposals..
Again I do not like Mahay under any circumstance.. Middle of the road relief guys is a total crap shoot…
Newsflash.. Lincecum and Porcello were NOT in the same draft class
Why all the concerns about Lincecum’s frame? Roy Oswalt is the same size and he seems to be doing pretty well. Also, he only pitched 146 inn because he was only in 24 games!
Matsui and Marquez for Lincecum? I’d do that in a heartbeat. Gives the Yanks more depth and then maybe they can send Kennedy, Horne, Austin Jackson and Gonzalez for Santana….wishful thinking, but you never know.
I want to raise a very serious point and ask a serious questions regarding Jason Giambi.
Looking at his stats over his career and the times he has come back from injury…
What is stopping Jason Giambi from playing, say, 80 games at first and 20-30 at DH. If he can do this, I think Giambi can hit 25-30 HR and drive in 75-90 runs easily. He is one of the best players talent-wise in baseball. I know it’s hard to believe this, but Giambi started out pretty strong last season before his injury problems began. It is unlikely that this injury returns, but it is always possible. But a healthy Giambi with a good balance of DH/1B can certainly perform, can’t he?
Why does everyone discount him and his ability? The former MVP who hit 41 HRs for us twice in back to back full seasons, 32 and 37 HR in ~130 game seasons, and 14 in a very limited season last year.
Am I crazy to expect a significant contribution from him this season? I don’t see a better option at 1B. Giambi has the potential for great things offensively. His defense is not terrible, it’s average to slightly below average. He can scoop a ball up. With Cano’s range, it can’t hurt that much.
So, i guess my question is, why is everyone discounting him so easily?
What happened vs the Indians last year? Is their team getting worse? No. Carmona with another year under his belt will be nothing but helpful for the Indians.
Boston isn’t going to be worse than last year. Especially if they sign Santana.
Detroit is better than last year, Bonderman will play a full season, add Cabrera and Wilis.
Yankees add 3 prospects to their rotation playing their first full year, if they make it to the playoffs throw the same 2 pitchers in the first and second games.
I’m a Yankee fan, but I’m also a realist. Yankees need a top starter. Albaladejo isn’t gonna cut it.
“Aside from being my favorite Yankee, with a runner on third and less than two outs he leads the majors in getting that runner home. ”
that’s because Matsui can ground out to 2B at will.
“I think Wang could win MORE games with another team. Jeter isn’t exactly a defensive genius in short. A-Rod is a good, but not spectacular 3B. If we went to a team with an outstanding defensive infield that would help him a lot.”
I think only the Phillies were within 100 runs of us this year. Whatever is lost to left side defense when pitching for the Yankees is more than made up for in offense. Perhaps you can argue a better ERA or WHIP, but not more wins.
Newsflash.. Lincecum and Porcello were NOT in the same draft class
——
Thanks Captain Obvious. It was to prove a point about someone talking about draft rank. Baseball isn’t the NFL.
Green Beret7,
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No problem. Would fun loving, slightly inebriated gobs be better?
Ha! Good one LOL! Why is it that their are no good names to call Army guys? Other than dog-face I can’t think of one. Marines have leathernecks, devil dogs, jarhead, etc. Not fair.
Of course when we are sitting out on our air conditioned ships, and sipping cokes, you guys are sweating it out in tents and digging holes to poop into. So I guess it evens out in the end.
It seems like Yankee fans are undervaluing Tim Lincecum. I know people don’t get to watch him much unless they got MLB Extra Innings or something, but he’s pretty damn good. Ian Kennedy and Matsui for Lincecum would be a good trade for the Yankees. If anything, Lincecum could be a lights out set-up man and eventually replace MO as closer.
“Carmona with another year under his belt will be nothing but helpful for the Indians.”
His ERA regresses a half run even if he pitches just as well as he did this season. There was a bit of luck there.
wait, did Lincecum pitch 3 years at UDub, or 4???
pleading ignorance on this one…
“ESPN: Left-handed reliever Ron Mahay has narrowed his choices down to the Royals and Yankees.”
Tough choice.
“I call pitching in the NL vs pitching in the AL AT THIS POINT IN THEIR CAREERS a wash. They’ll both have steep learning curves, no?”
Seriously have you watched any games played in the NL west.
That was the worst division in Baseball and no one could hit – Dodgers, D’Backs, Padres were terrible offensive clubs.
The idea that pitching in the NL West is the same as the AL East is ludicrous. It doesn’t matter how “steep” their learning curve is.
The competition they faces isn’t even remotely the same.
Frankie: Its not undervaluing, its knowing what a contender would trade. I’d love Kershaw and Jay Bruce and Justin Upton and they’ll probably all have better futures than Jeter but we aren’t making that deal because we won’t trade a vital piece. Wang is vital; Matsui is not.
Vince not sure where you get your info from, but expert analysts love Lincecum’s delivery motion as it uses his whole body alleviating stress to his arm.
“Why does everyone discount him and his ability? The former MVP who hit 41 HRs for us twice in back to back full seasons, 32 and 37 HR in ~130 game seasons, and 14 in a very limited season last year. ”
well, there is that whole little thing about his body falling apart from years of pumping steroids into his ass.
aside from that, he is a great hitter, but he can’t stay healthy.
All I know is, if the Giants traded Lincecum in a deal to the Yankees, tune in and listen to Mad Dawg Russo, it will be the most entertaining moment in the history of their program.
Considering the Giants can get Rios for Lincecum, I believe it will cost the Yankees a lot to get him. You never know what can happen, and it would be tremendous to hear Dawg’s reaction.
According to ESPN, Joe Torre had knee replacement surgery. No wonder he was absent from the Winter Meetings.
Frankie (again): My bad, I half read you comment. I’d probably do Matsui and Kennedy as well.
Sorry, Carmona is the real deal. No luck.
He had more bugs around him than Pigpen in the Peanuts and was still cool as ice.
What about Matsui/Kennedy for Bay/Marte?
Carmona will pitch even better next year!!!!Really he will win 23 games???
If the Yanks trade matsui that actually hurts them a ton… They lose abreu, giambi, after this yr. and there stud OF prospects are 2 yrs away or so, so there offensive resources are limited.. They have tons of pitching prospects but not hitters.
get Lincecum and santana and give up more offense!!!!!WHo do they hit?????They are getting old in the offense and Matsui is only 32 and a very good player… he is a very good player….
“December 6th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
“ESPN: Left-handed reliever Ron Mahay has narrowed his choices down to the Royals and Yankees.â€
Tough choice.”
Hopefully he chooses the Royals.
As for Matsui, it’s not worth giving him up for garbage which is what the Giants would offer us.
Matsui can still rake as DH.
SJ44
“Lincecum has so much tork in his delivery”
I wonder if he has some Davy Jones in his locker?
Or refers to his changeup as “The Dolenz”
- Simon
This is much ado about nothing. Lowry doesn’t make a lot of sense, and I find it hard to believe Cain or Lincecum would be coming back for him. If Cashman can pull that off, more power to him, but barring a Christmas miracle, the Giants have little else to offer.
Patrick: Did you only watch the playoffs or something? Thats what every comment is based upon. Carmona is very nice; the problem is only the absolutely elite pitchers can consistently keep their ERA at 3.00 and Carmona doesn’t K enough. There’s no shame in a 3.50 ERA which, I’d bet you anything, is the lowest he goes in 2008.
Patrick Bateman:
WRONG!! Ive looked over that 8th inning countless times and it is quite obvious that Joba was pitching with WAY WAY more midges than Carmona.
If the Yankees can ship out Matsui and Kennedy for a Cain or Lincecum, they better damn well do it. Cain more so than Lincecum. I doubt the Giants would go for it, but if they would, you pull the trigger. In fact, I’d do a Kennedy, Matsui, and Horne for Cain.
It would be a Festivus Miracle if Cashman got Cain or Linecum back in return.
Won’t hold my breath though.
Wang would win the CY in the NL…You guys bashing Wang are amazing. Look back at the 2006 play-offs. most of you were calling for Torre’s head because he did not use Wang in game 5! he has been the most consistant pitcher in the AL over the last two seasons and now your ready to dump him plus a consistant 20 hr 100 rbi guy in Matsui.
Peter, This blog has really gone down hill….
“wait, did Lincecum pitch 3 years at UDub, or 4???
pleading ignorance on this one…”
I wasn’t going to bother with this but since you asked – Lincecum like most top college players only played 3 years in college.
Now your argument was 4 years at a major college is equivalent to 3 years in the minors.
Now that your argument is factually incorrect I assume you’ll fully admit that Lincecum is not “one whole year” ahead of hughes.
Whatever that means in comparing a 21 year old to a 23 year old.
Suggesting Wang would beat out Peavy or Webb for the Cy is doing quite a bit to aid the downhill roll.
Yanksrule57
The only other name we have would be “Gods”.
I didn’t say Carmona would have more wins. I said he’ll be a better pitcher having a full year under his belt for experience.
Thats the problem with Yankee fans. They judge pitchers by “Wins”. Thats the last stats I’d look at when finding a pitcher.
(And isn’t college actually worse since the focus is on winning and missing aluminum bats as opposed to strict development?)
“wow, Wang was responsible for a solo HR that Myers gave up to Granderson?… maybe we *should* trade him. he makes other pitchers suck in the playoffs too.” —HMMNN, 1:24pm
You’re right, in one regard, Hmmm, I misinterpreted Myer’s stat line for Game 1 of the ’06. He gave up the homerun to Granderson. Wang only ceded 3 runs in 6.67 innings.
However, the conclusion you draw from it is, as usual, a red-herring.
As you might have read– had you taken the time, that is, instead of just overreacting to the first thing you saw– in my previous post, I lauded Wang and never advocated trading him.
“I still love the Wanger. Don’t forget he pitched well in Game 2 of the ‘05 ALDS. His line: 6.67 innings, 1 ER, 4 hits, O BB, 1 SO, 1 HR. (That was the year he only pitched 116 inning because of shoulder soreness).”
For whatever my opinion’s worth, I’d place him him among the top 10 pitchers in the AL.
I encourage you to correct my errors. But please don’t attribute conclusions to me that I never drew.
SJ44
“Lincecum has so much tork in his delivery”
I wonder if he has some Davy Jones in his locker?
Or refers to his changeup as “The Dolenz”
(apologies if this is a duplicate post)
Report: Bonds is training, would like to play in 2008:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3143814
So does Oj Simpson, PacMan Jones, and the Cincinnait Bengals.
Does Bonds know that a Federal Perjury Indictment is a pretty serious thing?
Jake relax on Cain.. He is a talent but kennedy, matsui, and Horne for cain is a joke…….
Matsui is a 25 hr, 100 + rbi, 280 + avg guy..
Kennedy is 23 and has a bright future.
Horne was the #1 pitcher in AA eastern league.
that is a bunch of talent……
Patrick: I don’t care about wins, I’m saying ERA. His peripherals don’t support 3.06.
(Not to mention it was a drastic workload jump from 2006.)
It’s a lot easier to replace position players than starting pitching / relief pitching. Look at how long it is taking us to replace the pitching staff since 2003? You make the move to trade Matsui for pitching from the Giants. I doubt we get Lincecum / Cain, but even pitchers from their bullpen would be sufficient for Matsui.
Yawn
Seems like we have a troll on board…welcome troll.
Yankees not contending in 08 with this team? How many games did you watch last year, bro?
This is a 93-95 win team easily as is. Big 3 pitch well, maybe 96 wins. Get Santana for IPK and decent numbers from everyone, likely 100.
Is this a homer talking? You bet. What else do you find on a Yankee blog?
However, most of the Yankee fans on this blog watch enough games to know what the rest of the AL looks like.
CB, I agree with you re: hitters in the AL East vs. the NL West, but I think for two rookies it is just about a wash b/c of the “learning curve” at the ML level vs all other levels.
Interesting fact I heard months ago, but have no forgotten exactly what it was…. I heard it during the world series… the stats said that outside of the Rockies’ lineup there were, I think, two regular players who batted over .300 in the entire NL West.
Unreal, right?
Don’t pull me over the coals if it is 3 players or something, but that was approx. the stat I heard.
Linecum is 5’10″ 155lb. In other wods, smaller than Pedro.
Dr. Andrews can’t wait to get his hands on this kid. Can you say shoulder surgery?
must run for now… today was much better in here than yesterday.
cheers
frankie -
you are going to send a starting pitcher under team control and a 100 rbi producer for an 8th inning set up guy? you would have a very short tenure as a gm.
If this happened, my girlfriend would be crushed. She loves Matsui. As do I, but to a lesser degree. Unless we get Lincecum for Matsui (which we wouldn’t), pass. Lowry got worse, and I say we stick with this youth movement.
First off, I’m not your “bro”. Second, just because I’m not a homer doesn’t mean I’m a troll.
You’ve got 2 veteran pitchers, neither of which can be considered to be a dominating number 1 starter, and 3 kids in a rotation who have never pitched a full year in the majors yet, and thats an instant playoff team. Give me a break.
If Lincecum was 6’2″ he would have been the #1 overall pick.
His body is definitely going to break down at some point…Why do you think they want to trade him instead of Matt Cain??
Cain lost like 16 games last season…
I don’t like trading Matsui unless it’s absolutely necessary
PB in DC,
There is absolutely no chance its a wash. That’s like saying it doesn’t matter whether a rookie pitcher who is learning is facing Big Papi or Eric Byrnes.
Competition sets the context for any young pitcher’s learning curve.
There’s no way “learning” equalizes the difference between the Red Sox and the Padres.
“Whatever that means in comparing a 21 year old to a 23 year old.”
um, two more years of pitching in his lifetime, presumably.
CB, please don’t assume that I am too sensitive to be corrected re: 3 vs. 4 years, it is insulting.
Also, for the record, I wrote 4 years in college and 3 years in amateur is a wash b/c the person I was ‘conversing’ with wrote it… then I went back to check it.
I still believe wholly that Lincecum is a solid year ahead of Hughes.
One simple question resolves this debate: I’ll ask again, how many innings do you think Hughes will be asked/expected to pitch by Yankees at the start of 2008?
An honest answer puts him in the 150-180 IP range. What do you think CB?
If you agree, than that is one year behind Lincecum.
I really must go, I can stick for a few to try to get your repsponse, but I have to be somewhere at 2pm….
FrankieD, the way he pitches, it’s not his arm that looks like it’s going to fly to the plate…his arm will stay on the mound, but the body will go about 60 feet 6 inches. Read the comparisons of his style. He’s never going to last as a starter, and, he’s certainly not worth a 19 game winner and a 100 RBI guy (one who brings in enough foreign revenue to pay his salary). No middle relief pitcher or set up guy is worth that.
“Am I crazy to expect a significant contribution from him this season?”
It’s not crazy to expect that if you expect Giambi to be healthy. I think most people, at this point, just don’t expect him to be able to stay healthy for a full-year anymore. Hopefully he proves us wrong, but he’s not getting any younger and the effects of his steroid use aren’t going away.
Patrick what you said is accurate but: this is a offense that scored 960 runs last yr. and lost no one from that lineup. yes they are a year older but melky, cano, and the backup catcher position should be better..
the do have 3 young starters but 1 is a phenomenal talent who dominated in the 8th inning last yr.(Joba) and hughes who pitched in about 14 games atrted and pitched rather well after a injury…
Kennedy’s sample is so small it means nothing but also remember who they started last yr in those games and the big 3 are better as is by far……..
stuart,
I agree and disagree.
No doubt that Kennedy, Horne, and Matsui are a lot of talent. Matsui…if we can trade that salary, we absolutely should. 26 million off the books over the next two years. We wouldn’t get an SP without giving up a young prospect in Kennedy, but perhaps the Giants would want a bat instead of Horne anyways.
Cain is a stud. I live near SF and have seen him pitch numerous times. Don’t be deceived by his W/L last year. You probably aren’t since everyone on here is a stat junky, but he would be a great addition to our rotation. Young, proven, high Ks, and highly regarded by analysts (no, not just ESPN). And inexpensive to boot.
Or with Lincecum you get a perfect setup man for Rivera and potential future closer. I don’t buy Lincecum as a starter, but perhaps I am wrong. He could probably do both.
Wow, this trade matchup might be ideal.
I agree: re competition sets the context for the learning curve, the problem/mistake you’re making is in what your comparing. The comparision should be this:
is jumping from minors to the AL (not just the east, right?) a comparable step as jumping from the minors to the NL (not just the west).
It is not AL east vs. NL west.
I’m not sure what the Yankees are looking to get from the Giants, but it would be a lesser pitcher than our big three, i’m sure. Matsui is a good hitter, but he’s going to be 34 years old, and that’s something the Giants should take into consideration, even for someone like Noah Lowry, which is only 26 years old. Say what you like about Lowry’s WHIP, he did a pretty good job with a sore elbow, and has great control, and is becoming very much the “grand ball pitcher” … Having a lefty that is able to get hitters to smash balls into the ground, would benefit the Yankee’s… They need to consider getting a bit younger, which may be an objective of theirs as well… Lowry could serve fine as a #4 or #5 starter in “any” rotation.
Lowry/Roberts for Matsui
That’s my prediction.
“CB, please don’t assume that I am too sensitive to be corrected re: 3 vs. 4 years, it is insulting.
”
PB,
That had nothing to do with it – I just didn’t want to get into an argument two other people were having – that was it.
The number of innings pitched is one measure of being “ahead” in terms of pitching development.
The more important issue is overall polish and refinement.
In a way this gets down to how much is the prospect “throwing” vs. “pitching.”
Even though Phil Hughes is 21 and Lincecum 23, I think Hughes is more of a pitcher. Lincecum is still a “thrower” and he walks too many guys.
It took Josh Becket 6-7 years in pro baseball to stop being a thrower and start pitching. And that only happenned becasue he got belted around in the AL east last year.
Lincecum could take a while.
a package built around Matsui that could deliver Cain would be ideal and a no-brainer. Same premise as if the Yankees were able to piggyback Ian Snell in an expanded Marte deal.
With Cain, you’ve got a young arm who broke into the league with as much upside as Phil Hughes, who could slot right behind Pettitte in the rotation. Getting a Cain could allow Cashman and Girardi to think about keeping Joba in the pen for the 7th and 8th innings, should they decide to rebuild their pen that way.
Jake
December 6th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
If the Yankees can ship out Matsui and Kennedy for a Cain or Lincecum, they better damn well do it. Cain more so than Lincecum. I doubt the Giants would go for it, but if they would, you pull the trigger. In fact, I’d do a Kennedy, Matsui, and Horne for Cain.
__________________________________________________
Come on…TRhis is really Bill Smith, isn’t it?
I know Cain is a big talent and won/loss record on crappy teams especially is irrelevant. 1 the giants will not trade cain and 2 Matsui at $13 mill a yr for 2 yrs is a del…
Andruw Jones got $36 mill for 2… Rowand will get more then Matsui and many more yrs. and Matsui is a much better player……
I just don’t see it happening and Matsui is one of tyhe few power guys the yanks have..The only 20+ HR guys the anks have are; arod, posada, matsui, Cano(maybe)and abreu.. and that list has some hopeful wishes in it…
I don’t want Matsui traded, but I could see why he would brought up. It’s an odd situation in Left Field and DH.
the LF and DH equation gets less cloudy after this y. when giambi and $20 mill goes away…..
if the Yankkes trade Matsui for Lowry/Roberts then they are completely insane and idiotic. Now we are making trades for Dave Roberts??? Cmon now Lowry is a number 3 or 4 right now in the NL West in a pitchers park, he would be a 5 or in the pen in the AL East.
Lincecum/Cain are like gold
Lowry-like golden chocolate
Well, since the Twins didn’t want a package centered around Hughes, maybe they’ll turn their attention to Lincecum? j/k guys. They’re both great prospects and in terms of development and potential they’re probably not very far apart. Therefore the tiebraker will be that Hughes is better because he pitches for the Yankees.
The two pitchers are at the same point in their MLB careers and Hughes is two years younger. That does not sound like Lincecum is far ahead in his development.
I hate the term troll. Just because Pete used it, everyone now uses it. Its just a corny name.
Unless Giambi starts doping again, he’ll be injured for the rest of his career.
All his injuries are classic post-steroids injuries. All load bearing tissue injuries, and a benign tumor.
He’s finished being that great hitter, but I think he will still command attention in any lineup.
Financially, the Yankees have benefited enormously from the Japanese market that Matsui brought them. They would never dishonor Hideki Matsui and shouldn’t; he has continued to be a productive player (except when he broke his wrist) since he got here. Has he been streaky? Yes, but who isn’t? Moving Matsui would be a bad business decision unless Matsui wanted to go to SF. With the outfield in SF his production would only go down – this would be a VERY touchy situation. The whole A-Rod debacle is based on the Yankees making money for the homerun race.
Hmmm:
“Aside from being my favorite Yankee, with a runner on third and less than two outs he leads the majors in getting that runner home. â€
that’s because Matsui can ground out to 2B at will.
It’s called a productive out. He takes a tough pitch and hits it to the right side of the field so the runner can score. It’s better than a pop up or a strikeout neh?
Dr Cox:
Dr. Cox December 6th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Anyone with eyes can see that Matsui has not been the same since his injury. It startled him, he’s timid, he swings at bad pitches, he gets down on himself (in his own silent Japanese way).
I want him out.
Yeah he never came back from that injury:
Yankees OF Matsui named AL Player of the Month Thursday, August 2, 2007 02:32 PM
NEW YORK (Ticker) — For the second straight month, a New York Yankee has been the class of the American League.
Outfielder Hideki Matsui on Thursday was named the AL Player of the Month for July.
Following up on teammate Alex Rodriguez’s stellar June, Matsui hit .345 (39-for-113) with 13 home runs and 28 RBI in 28 games last month.
The native of Japan, who had an 18-game hitting streak during July, led the AL in home runs, slugging percentage (.735) and runs scored (31).
It was the first monthly award for Matsui, who is hitting .293 with 21 homers and 74 RBI in 94 games.
lowry will suck in the AL. He isnt even very good in the NL west. He wouldnt even be a major-leaguer in the AL east – prolly put up igawa-like numbers. The only two i would take from the giants is lincecum or cain – we could prolly get one of them for matsui and a high prospect/
There is zero chance the Giants will trade Matt Cain, they are tremendously impressed with his stuff, his potential, and with his poise (he’s actually younger than Lincecum). I heard on the SF sports talk station (which I can’t produce or explain or back up) that Cain was statistically the unluckiest pitcher in 40+ years, maybe even more than that. I’m guessing that by that they meant some combination of poor run support, blown saves, unearned runs, etc. He pitched very well all of last year for a sad, sad team.
As for Lincecum, he came up partly out of desperation and showed flashes of real brilliance. He also got beat up several times, just like every fresh prospect (un, not counting Jaba of course) does. I don’t think you can extrapolate anything either way from his 2006 performance. If the Giants trade him, it will really be a panic move (unless they get a lot back), but they just don’t have any bats at all right now. They still have an amazing ballpark, but that won’t mean much on a foggy Tuesday night in July with the Nationals in town. It’s going to be a bleak season by the Bay. As an SF resident, I hope they keep Lincecum, because I don’t see a realistic way the Yanks get him. Now would he be the answer to the 2008 needs.
“I encourage you to correct my errors. But please don’t attribute conclusions to me that I never drew.”
relax, it was a joke. at least one person enjoyed it. that is a personal best for me.
Pete, get a clue.
The Yanks aren’t going to get Rich Aurilia for god’s sake!
Jonathan Sanchez maybe.
Or something like Matsui/Kennedy/AJax/$ for Cain or Lincecum
But not “spare parts” for Matsui. And not a guy with a 1:1 BB:K ratio for a team that walked the most people in the AL last year…
C’mon dude – you can do better than that…
Pete did not invent the term “troll” Al Gore did when he invented the internet.
First of all, trading Matsui for Lowry would be ridiculous. Why would we want Noah Lowry? He is not an upgrade in our rotation in any way. the only thing he’d provide is innings and since we have 6 starters, i don’t see that as an issue.
Dave Roberts? My god.
I’m sorry, but Matsui hasn’t done jack $hit for the Yankees the past two years. In terms of power hitters, that is hte least of our concern, especially from the left side.
In terms of “dishonoring” Matsui, baseball is a business and if Matsui feels “dishonored,” he needs to grow a sack. SF would be a fine place for him.
You all seem to forget that in a trade that ISN’T for Johan Santana, we don’t have to pay $150 million on top of giving up prospects, so giving up three guys for Cain isn’t that big of a deal for me. Its like going after Haren but at a lesser price in prospects.
Having said that, I like Matsui as much as the next guy, he is a stand up player, works hard, and of Japanese appeal. This makes him good trade bait.
Do the Yankees really need the marketing appeal? Are they so dependent on that? Doubt it. They’re the Yankees.
Virginia,
We are not talking about a scrub player in Matsui. He is average to above average on defense. His arm is not as bad as it’s made out to be. Everyone seems to think Melky has some kind of cannon arm, which is a falicy. And Damon, has no arm whatsoever is a given but he’s not being considered as trade bait just yet. Why, because he is valuable to the team in other ways. So is Matsui.
The next time Melky throws home, take a look at where he’s throwing the ball from, the distance, and then look at where he throws it to, the accuracy, and let me know about how great his supposed cannon of an arm really is. Since he can’t throw as well as Abreu, I don’t think Melky is all that as far as his arm goes. The difference is he was one of the few players we had in a long time who could throw above average and people made a big deal out of it. Melky is not all that or he wouldn’t be involved in every trade talk we make, from our own team. I can see trading Melky but not Matsui.
He gives less in offense and isn’t in Matsui’s caliber. IMO
Trading for a pitcher, especially a rookie, for a seasoned 33 year old player in Matsui, who has hit at or close to .300 and hit over 100 rbi’s since he’s been here with power, doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense since our rookie phenom’s aren’t going to be ready for a year or two, and why pay for an outsider when we have better than we can get in trades on the way from the farm for nothing.
Getting younger is a good thing but what would you pay for a younger player who gives you Matsui’s stats on a consistant basis ? Close or the same amount and what do you lose as part of that trade ? A better arm for less offensive production ? An equal player makes equal money. To sacrifice for someone who may catch one more ball on defense and gives any less production on offense makes no sense either.
We already have a slew of pitching prospects that we haven’t even tried yet so why lose a quality player for a guess at this point ?
Lincecum for Matsui and Kennedy…..As a Yankee fan and someone who knows Lincecum is going to be somewhere between Roy Oswalt and Nolan Ryan……….DOOOOOO ITTTTTT NNNNOOOOWWW
Two other points on Matsui:
He benefits from the DH which could extend his career and he wouldn’t have that option in SF and he has a complete no trade clause in his contract. I doubt he makes the trade in any event.
Remember the question Peter poses. Could Matsui be on the market ? That opposed to Matsui IS on the market.
Okay, I will admit that I am a Red Sox fan. But just hear me out, before just lashing out.
Now, I have to get this out of the way…I think its a freaking joke how guys like Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy are thought to be these cant miss studs. And I feel the SAME way about Sox fans who have statues erected for Buchholz, Lester, and Masterson. Yankee and Sox fans think these guys are the best pitching prospects in baseball.
Now, onto the Matsui trade. I realize he is an “iconic” figure to Yank fans. And his “value” transcends what he does on the field. Now, I am not saying that he should be flipped for Lowry…to me thats flat out insane. Lowry isnt all that great. But a trade for Lincecum is more than fair value. This talk about Lincecums frame being a harbinger of doom is a joke. Santana, Pedro, Hudson (6`s, but RAIL thin) and many countless other slight power pitchers have had long sucessful careers, despite the curse of their physical stature.
If I am the Yankees, I jump at the chance to molve Matsui to the Giants. And I dont think that Matsui being Japanese matters at all to the Giants. Its not like they are getting the young Matsui, Dice-K, young Ichiro. They are getting a guy who is verfy close to being on his last legs, literally. Matsui can still hit, and likely will do so for 2 or 3 more years. But in a year, he is going to be a horrible liability in the field. If I am the Yanks, I am happy going into the season with an outfield of Damon, Cabrera, and Abreau. Sign a 4th OF for short money. Get Nady or solmeone like that. It doesnt look sexy, nor does it have 3 30 HR guys, but it will be effective enough. Hell, the Sox won a world championship with the 11 Hrs that Drew provided, and less than 10 from Crisp!
Its about PITCHING! PITCHING wins championships. The Sox very willingly gave up a star-bound Hanley Ramirez for Beckett. And Beckett didnt come with the regular season pedigree of a Santana or countless others. But they knew he was a post-season gamer.
I`m rambling here, but my point is….move the aging guy for a kid who looks to be destined to be very good. Its always a crapshoot, but the possible benefits are much greater than holding onto Matsui. But the Yanks MAY need to add something. Matsui is aging, has a good size contract (albeit only for a couple years). Lincecum is cost controlled for the foreseeable future and has his best years ahead of him. Cain??? No way he comes in a Matsui deal, unless 1 of your Big 3 go to SF.
Ask yourself this question…and be HONEST. Is this Yankee team good enough to win a World Championship? What pieces are missing. Do they look good enough to compete in 2 years from now? What do they need to add?
You can never have enough pitching. The odds are so great that at least 1 of your Big 3 prospects will be a bust, 1 will achieve greatness, and 1 will be mediocre. I tell fellow Sox fans that very same thing about Buchholz, Lester, and Masterson. Thats why I had no problem including any of them in a Santana deal!
Anyway…I rambled, digressed, and ultimately lost track of what I wanted to say. Anyway…move Matsui and add another young pitcher to the stable. And then look at the Haren and Santana deals again…this time with the ability to move multiple pitching prospects.
Later
Matsui had the second highest OPS for a left fielder in the AMerican League Last year.
Think about that – in an off season in which he played on a bad knee only Manny had a higher OPS than any left fielder other than an all time great.
Why do people always think the answer is to get rid of people especially after a down year when you’re selling low.
I’m surprised at how many people are talking negatively about Tim Lincecum. The guy has absolutely amazing stuff.
I’d deal him straight up for thier lefty Sanchez, Esp if we signed Fukudome….no way they will give up Lincecum or Cain. Lowry was hurt part of the year, so his 07 numbers are a bit whack..they’d need to sweeten the pot if they insist on him…
I love life right now. Just so you all know.
The Giants have a barren farm system when it comes to position players. If we could get Cain for Matsui and Jackson or Tabata, I say we pull the trigger (Hell, I’d even throw in one of our lesser pitching prospects like Marquez or Wright).
Forget about parlaying Cain in a package for Santana: keep Cain. He is the real deal, and a bargain at that. Cain, Hughes, Chamberlain, Wang, and Pettitte would be a sick rotation. Why give up more prospects and $25 million a year to upgrade from Cain to Santana?
Lincecum is intriguing. His pitching motion draws comparisons to Sandy Koufax (he hurdles his lead leg as far front as possible, almost leaving the pitching mound). Similarly though to Koufax, there’s questions about his durability, and with the motion he has he tends to get out of whack and inconsistent.
Cain is a much more sure thing. I remember reading a site where they did a statistical analysis of potential no-hitters, and Cain led the majors in likelihood of multiple no-hitters in his career. He has that high a ceiling.
iYankees
December 6th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
I’m surprised at how many people are talking negatively about Tim Lincecum. The guy has absolutely amazing stuff.
—————
it’s not his stuff that people are peeing on, it’s the fact that he has a pretty violent delivery that generates a lot of torque on a pretty slim frame and that he’s a TJ surgery waiting to happen.
Jeff,
You do make some valid points. But far more knowledgeable talent evaluators that you (a Sox fan) or I (a Yankee fan) rate these pitchers as high as they are. The reason why in 2007 Baseball America ranked the Yankees farm system as #1 in pitching (and I believe 14 or 16 in hitting)is because of Hughes, Joba, Kennedy et al.
And not to be too argumentative here,but Red Sox fans need to remember that Boston finished a mere 2 games ahead of the Red Sox and lost 10 of the last 14 games played head to head. The Yankees, after their pathetically slow start, had the American League’s best record from May 29 on.If the Sox don’t get Santana, the same Yankee team has proved they can compete favorably with the same Red Sox team.
Both teams have question marks. The Yanks holes have been well documented here. The Sox have 2 starters over the age of 40.If DiceK’s second half is a harbinger for things to come, the playing field is very level.
No problem, Hmmn, all in the spirit of good debate.
“It’s never personal, only business”
noooooo! Matsui is such an important part of the yankees, they can’t trade him! Do you really think Giambi is going to stay healthy all year? And, as much as I love Duncan, he has a habit of striking out in big spots. Matsui is such a important part of this team, trading him would leave a giant hole; and no one could fill it.
Mariel, I understand your concerns, but if I have a chance at getting Cain or Lincecum (both potential #1 SPs) and losing Matsui, I do it. If Yanks are worried about depth and want insurance in case Damon or Giambi get hurt, there’s still plenty of options out there (you could spend some dough and get Fukodome or Rowand, and have Melky come on as your 4th OF/defensive replacement, or you could go cheaper and get someone like Wilkerson, who could cover both corner OF positions, 1b, or DH). But you don’t let a chance to get a young gun like one of those get away. Offense isn’t our concern.
Remember where you heard it first, biznachels…WFAN is saying Sanchez
And I’m not that other Jake..tho he had some good ideas
——-
I’d deal him straight up for thier lefty Sanchez, Esp if we signed Fukudome….no way they will give up Lincecum or Cain. Lowry was hurt part of the year, so his 07 numbers are a bit whack..they’d need to sweeten the pot if they insist on him…
Sanchez seems alot like a Farnsworth to me: alot of strikeouts; alot of walks; and alot of homers. Don’t we already have Bruney as Farnsworth-in-training?
trade matsui for players that they then can turn around a deal to the twins, maybe they wouldnt have to deal hughes
I see your point, Denny.
Denny-
How can you say the Cain is more of a sure thing than Johan? What has Cain proven? He pitches in the NL which is much weaker than the AL. I say trade for some players or attempt to work a three way trade to get Johan
Jon,
I never said Cain was a more sure thing than Johan (on the contrary). I said Cain was more a sure thing than Lincecum.
With the return of Arod/Posada/Abreu, the emergence of Cano’s pop, Shelly Duncan’s surprising slugging ability and the possible health of Giambi, I don’t think we’d feel the loss of Matsui. He’s earning 13 million to split time at DH and LF. He can’t field near as well as Damon which means he’s a 13 million dollar DH sharing most of his time with a 25 million dollar DH. That’s a waste.
I would do the deal for Noah Lowery if the Yanks have a plan to spin him. I don’t think the Yankees would have a use for Lowery in our starting rotation so it’s possible that another team likes Lowery and has something more useful to offer the Yankees.
Take the Pirates for instance. They need more innings from SP’s and have Marte. I’d love to spin Lowery for Marte and dump Matsui’s salary in the process. I think that makes us a better team.
As a Giants fan I don’t think most people on this blog are really taking into account the needs of the Giants when they are evaluating potential trades (and i dont mean that in an insulting way, of course they wouldnt cause its a Yankees blog). Sabean has said over and over that he is not “shopping” either cain or Lincecum. We have probably the worst team in the major leagues on our hands here and the only promising thing about our team are cain and Lincecum. I am pissed to hear rumors that Sabean would consider trading either one of them for Rios…who is an amazing, young, cheap, allstar. While we do need a bat we would only control Rios for three years as opposed to the six years that we control Lincecum.
Matsui, who is not young and not cheap and IS injury prone (though i would love to have him on the team next year cause he would be fun to watch) would do absolutely nothing to help our franchise in the longrun. I think Sabean was talking to the Yankees about him just to see if you guys wanted to unload the payroll and maybe get something minor in return. seeing as how your lineup is pretty much full. But Matsui doesnt have the kind of value for us that even Noah Lowry has (cheap innings eater who is under our control for a long time and who probably wouldnt hold up in the AL east). We would much rather have melky than Matsui.
As far as Lincecums value. He has LOTS of potential. 1 earned run and 46 strikeouts in 31 innings of Triple A ball is pretty much unheard of. I dont know your “big 3″ prospects but i would be surprised if their results are as impressive. True people were worried about his injury risk (and that is why he fell to the 11th pick) because he is so small. His father taught him unique mechanics at a really young age (And i hear his dad can still throw 88mph)
But experts are divided on whether or not his unique delivery is a bad thing in the long run. I havent seen any studies that show big guys are less likely to be injured…its true that there arent many guys who are Lincs size who can throw in the upper 90′s with a plus curveball. But he can! he has had no injury problems so far, and he never even ices his arm after a start!
So while you are right he does pose an injury risk that is mostly just because he is a pitcher. He totally could fall apart next week and everyone will say “i told you so” but ALL pitchers pose an injury risk. And most of them do end up with injuries. The exciting thing about him is that he also has a very real multiple CY young risk. And Ill take that over ANY rookie in the league.
Noah Lowry would be an exceptional pitcher in the A.L. I’ve seen him pitch many times. Solid left-hander, good fasteball that moves away from the hitter, smart pitcher.