Winter Meetings ready to close up
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 06, 2007 
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The fourth and final day of the Winter Meetings is upon us. Here is how it works:
The Rule 5 Draft is at 9 a.m. local time (about an hour from now) and then everybody flees like the place is on fire.
Brian Cashman said he has no meetings set up for today. He will meet with us after the draft. Just in case something breaks, I have a later flight so there will be assorted posts throughout the day.
I guess nothing gonna happen.At least Santana most likely will stay a Twin.
SAndMan – there is a lot of time left before the season starts
I have a feeling the Mets have something up their sleeve.
Santana is NOT a resolved issue….mark my words…As long as the Yankees don’t let him go to the Sux…I’ll be Camperus Maximus Happius.
this was my favorite one
“The wayward rumor — had Santana going to the Mets along with A’s shortstop Bobby Crosby and first baseman Dan Johnson, Haren going to Minnesota, and Reyes and Mets pitching prospect Kevin Mulvey to the A’s”
Dont know if its been said but Andruw Jones signed with the Dodgers
When will the A-Rod deal be official?
“The fourth and final day of the Winter Meetings are upon us.”
I cringed reading that. This is one of my grammatical pet peeves.
Good acquisition for LA!
is upon us
So the Mets only give up Reyes Kevin Mulvey. And get Santana and Crosby!!
And the Twins get Dan Johnson, and Haren
They are paying him 18 million a year coming off a horrible season!!
Personally, I’m fine with Santana staying in Minny, because that means that (a) The Red Sox and/or Angels didn’t get him; (b) If he’s a FA next year, the Yankees can break the bank for him and only lose a 1st round pick (a late 1st round pick at that, and arguably, the Yanks could get a 1st round pick if they offer arbitration to Abreu and Abreu goes and signs with someone else).
If theres one thing Ive learned about baseball, Jennifer, one season doesnt automatically make their career.
Take care of the bullpen Cashman. The rotation is fine.
How will arbitration work with the rest of the Yanks unwanted free agents at the end of next year? Giambi, Mussina, Pavano? Will we get draft picks for them as well? Do we risk them accepting arbitration and being stuck with them for another year and having to pay them out?
Wait, do you mean we survived the Winter Meetings?
Considering Cashman’s mentioned him (publicly) as a bullpen option, I wonder if we’ll lose Steven White in the rule 5 draft.
TheGhostOfAlvaroEspinoza, I believe you’re correct, if we offer arbitration, we get the picks, but run the risk that they’d accept it. Arbitration is usually offered based on a verbal agreement that it won’t be accepted, however.
I think there will be some some other moves that Cashman makes. One puzzling thing for me though is there are starting to be too many pitchers in the Yankee system that are lower than the Trinity and those that will be put (showcased) in the bullpen, who are blocked because they just aren’t quite as good as the ones above them.
Why can’t a number of these be moved in trade chips?
DeSalvo, for one. While he didn’t do all that great in YS, he might not be a bad back of the rotation guy or innings eater for some teams out there. Same with Henn, who really just needed more time, and now is probably not going to get any kind of shot.
Well, none of us can’t say these winter meetings didn’t have us on the edge of our seats for a few days..
Hmm.. doubble negative in my last post.. I’m good at English…
I tend to doubt that Pavano or Giambi would be A or B type Free agents, so there is no need to offer arbitration to them, there are no draft picks for them anyway. Mussina might come in as a B, so it might not be worth it for the limited draft pick they get in return.
Major threat hanging out there — Twins, desperate and frustrated, accept Sox low-ball offer.
Seems to me Yanks need to have an offer on the table that at least matches Sox offer and guards against that happening.
Good Jorb there D-Man.
With the some of the posts we get on here, I bet many won’t even understand what you mean.
I can’t believe MLB is charging people to watch the draft.
Will the A-Rod contract be done this week?
They are paying him 18 million a year coming off a horrible season!!
LOL Guess Boras hasn’t lost all his magic this season. That was a crazy amount for someone who batted .222 this past season!
________________
tend to doubt that Pavano or Giambi would be A or B type Free agents, so there is no need to offer arbitration to them, there are no draft picks for them anyway.
No way if we offer them arbitration and they accept, don’t we have to take them back? Both should be gone next year and never looked at again.
Rebecca, A-Point, Bartap
Yesterday evening you guys were chatting in one thread about IPK’s wife being in her 5th year at USC. One of you brought up a 5 year program which I was in at Syracuse. It’s actually very different than how you described what some other programs are doing with internships now. If you’re still interested in a little clarification about that go back to the end of that thread I posted something there this morning. If not, hey it’s no biggie …
How many rounds is the draft? Is it just once thru? Also is there somewhere I can see who was picked.
Why would the Twins have to accept a lowball offer?
This is also a business. Twenty home starts for Santana, with 40,000+ in attendance (what his starts draw in Minnesota) isn’t a bad payday for the Twins.
For a tightwad like Carl Pohlad, he would gladly take that gate over a season than settling for a lowball and throwing a lesser pitcher on the mound for the 12-15,000 that pitcher would draw per start.
The Twins overplayed their hand and they blew their chance to get quality for Santana.
They are better off regrouping, have him pitch for them this season, and re-visit trade talks at the deadline. Depending of course, their place in the standings at that time.
Bottom line, how do you know that the Yankees don’t have something in place to hedge against that? Also, why would Santana have to be dealt prior to the start of Spring training? He might actually get a better package of prospects and near ML ready players from teams that are in the hunt at the trade deadline.
I just don’t see Smith getting that worried at this point. Patience is a big key in these negotiations.
I have a feeling that was one reason why the Yankees put on the deadline. It was a means to pull out of the deal while leaving some wiggle room.
A-Point, I’d be willing to bet there will be some trades for bullpen help involving guys like that (DeSalvo). Starting with the T-Clip trade, maybe another or two like it..
bottom line, we already had a BETTER offer on the table than the Red Sox offer.
There seems to be thoughts after the Detroit/Florida trade that Santana should bring the type of return that Florida got. So apparantly, they’re valuing Santana as equal to Miguel Cabrera AND Dontrelle Willis. I’m not sure I agree with that, but that seems to be the thinking now. Hopefully that will mean they’ll hold onto him and we’ll grab him as a FA next year.
It was under “Yanks staying quiet today”
SJ44, seems like we both are in agreement on the Santana issue.
No kidding A-Point. I can’t count the number of times I’ve wanted to post something like:
You mean “more THAN”, not “more then” !!!
You mean “a lot”, not “alot” (and various other instances of people thinking that the word “a” can be combined with whatever word follows it to make some sort of compound new word)
There are many more, but the than/then thing makes me want to bang my head against the wall. People even do the reverse now, saying something like “I’m going to read your post, than respond.” It’s insane. People didn’t make that mistake 4 years ago, even on internet message boards. What happened??
Does anybody know which of our free agents next season are likely to project to type A or B?
there’s another espinoza username?
“It was a means to pull out of the deal while leaving some wiggle room.”
I really believe that is exactly why the deadline was in place. The Yankees knew by then Pettitte was coming back and were hoping to use the deadline as an excuse to pull Hughes off the table. That’s my take on it anyway.
Ranting Guy, which thread was it on, there have been so many I can’t remember which topic that discussion occured on.
“Why can’t a number of these be moved in trade chips?”
One already was. Another one or two probably will be.
Also, there’s the depth issue. You don’t want to send away ALL your decent AAA starters.
RE: Steven White…pretty sure he’s on the 40 man, no? Thus, protected.
Or, if he’s not…I don’t think he’s been in the minors long enough to be eligible. Something. I’m pretty sure he’s protected.
Don’t even bring any bullpen help in (Unless its Damasco Marte). Don’t bring back Viz or Villone. Get rid of Farnworthless and Igawa and go with Joba, Brian Bruney, Britton, Horne, White, Jackson (if hes not drafted), Veras, Russ O, that new guy Alba, Karstens, Humerto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, TJ Beam, J Brent Cox, Daniel McCutchen, Jeff Marquez, Dellin Betances, Mark Melancon and maybe Henn. Every Contract you bring in blocks one of these talented, mostly hard throwing kids from getting an opportunity. Building your pen this way is how other teams build Strong bullpens. We should as well.
Yeah, I thought I was being original with mine, too. I guess I could always change it to TheGhostOfLeeGutterman.
I thought Pete said in the thread about the rule 5 draft that White wasn’t protected..
For you asking Steven White was added on to the 40 man roster. so he’s protected. He was outstanding in aaa this year.
Oops Edwar Ramirez
Of course, Twins can stay pat. I’m just saying it’s a risk and all it would take is an offer we can live with (that the Twins won’t likely take anyway) that guards against one of those classic midnight raids by Lucchino-Epstein. They’ve swooped in suddenly and unexpectedly before. These guys are maniacally competitive (anybody noticed yet)and play to win. I just think we need a package (I’d build it around IPK) sitting out there.
“Does anybody know which of our free agents next season are likely to project to type A or B?”
I _think_ that if Giambi has a good year, he’d be a Type A. I believe it’s based on your last three seasons. Even though he had bad numbers this year, he had so few ABs that it wouldn’t skew his overall stats. And, as much as people like to lambast him, he had the 6th best OPS in the league in 2006.
The question is do you offer him arby? He might well accept, and then he’d still cost a bundle, and they really need to open up the DH slot for other people.
Sorry, Pete mentioned Steven Jackson being unprotected, not white…
Robert O’Kelly, good points. One of the ones that bothers me is the use of “a” instead of “and”. Also using “prolly” instead of “probably”. English teachers are frustrated because so many of their students don’t use punctuation.
It might be driven by text messaging. That aside from the whole new language that was developed for gaming.
Of course, sometimes I just laugh about the posts that are written that way because it took me so long to get through it that forgot what the subject was supposed to be. LOL.
The Yankees could keep Matt DeSalvo in the system just to use in the rotation in each series against the Mariners. Look at his two starts against Seattle, they were both very good performances. I say this half jokingly, but he did seem to have Seattle’s number this season, maybe he could keep up that stroke of luck.
There’s no way to know until after the season is played. It’s based on what kind of season the player had and whether he was in the top percentage of players for A level comp or 2nd tier level of players for B Level comp.
Joba’s a starter. You’ll be thankful for that next year.
I know im going to get bashed for this comment. But i really do feel like Farnsworth can turn it around. He had a decent end of the season and Girardi and Co. seem to believe in him.
If he stops being such an A$$ then maybe he can be benificial.
With all the praises that Cashman and Girardi put on Farnsworth, either they really think they can use him as setup man, or they are looking to deal him soon.
How often do they initiate a comment on a relief pitcher like that?
SJ, since Santana, as of now may be staying put, what do you think of this, both the Yankees and Sawx think that five young pitchers (Joba, Hughes, IPK, Bucholtz, and Lester) are going to be the real deal.
What are those odds?
Robert Kelly,
Doesn’t it make you want to throw something when people write something like, “than you can turn around and sign…”?
Dr. Cox, it’s not impossible… If he grows a sac and throws his stuff, he has at least shown that he can be effective. Consistent is another story, but seems to be a head issue more than stuff.
I didnt see Mike and Mike at Penn Station today, what is not today?
In Girardi’s meeting with the press, Girardi mentioned how he knew what made Farnsworth tick, but he specifically mentioned instilling “confidence”.
“I know im going to get bashed for this comment. But i really do feel like Farnsworth can turn it around. He had a decent end of the season and Girardi and Co. seem to believe in him.”
he improved some when he switched to the windup.
i’m ok with him being in the mix next year.
everyone here will freak out, but you guys have to believe that if someone offers something of equal vallue that the yankees need for Farnsworth, he’ll trade him. if they don’t, he won’t.
but some of you guys seem to always want the yankees to just give players away, and that’s not really a good trading strategy.
Dr. Cox, I can’t say that I would argue with you regarding Farnsworth. The biggest trouble with him was it was always either/ or with his pitching.
You would hold your breath every time he came in, even if the Yankees had a big lead. His stuff can be great, I think he worked hard at trying to get it turned around.
Which points me back to an early conversation we had regarding the pitching coach. Maybe Eiland might have seen some things that were wrong with Farnsworth’s delivery. Remember the wind up Farnsworth was starting to use toward the end of the season? Maybe that was something Eiland was asking him to do because of how it helped do something to his mechanics. Funny thing was it did have a somewhat positive affect.
A-Point, Rebecca, Bartap
It was under “Yanks staying quiet todayâ€
The are going to be there tomorrow morning.
Chris NY I think Joba will be a starter too. But there gonna want to limit his innings early on so they don’t have to shut him down in August or September and not have him for the Playoffs. He only threw 112 innings last year. The conventional wisdom is to only add about 30 innings a year to a young pitchers arm. They could do the opposite start him early and move him to the pen. Also from some of the things Joe G. said (reading between the lines) he wanted him in the pen.
at the end
A-Point – I agree re: texting (and IM and email) eroding punctuation, and “prolly” has always been annoying. But than/then can’t be explained by punctuation or abbreviation. They are very simple words, and the confusion of them is a (fairly) new phenomenon / epidemic. A hazard of reading online, I guess.
Sorry to go off topic. Obviously the great info on this blog (from Pete, as well as SJ44 and all those who contribute great info and debate)is worth the grammatical frustration. Here’s hoping for Santana opening the new Stadium, followed by Wang, Hughes, Joba, and IPK. (Though it might be more fun to have ol #46 open it after winning #27 in the old place.)
Ghost of Alvaro: I barely post here, it’s all yours. I’ll think of something else.
I now dub myself Brien Taylor’s Welfare
Too soon?
eh, i feel bad using that one.
giambi’s sweat stain it is.
limiting his and Phil’s innings is certainly going to be an interesting challenge. I would think he’d be a starter to begin with, then move him to the pen if innings are still a concern (if he’s healthy all year and reaches/approaches his innings limit), since it’s easier to move to the pen from the rotation than the other way around.
I haven’t had a chance to listen to or read the Joe G stuff, didn’t he mention something about a 6 man rotation, skipping Joba and Hughes here and there to keep their innings down?
mel –
Yes, it does. Especially because the person writing “than you can turn around and sign…” probably fully knew the meaning of the word “than” when they were 9 years old, but somehow forgot it since.
From Baseball America.
Can’t say I heard his name before?
Mike Gardner, who has a low 90s fastball, goes to the Padres; Gardner was in the Yankees organization.
Honestly there will only be three that will be worth their salt.
Seriously, there has been a ton of scouting on these kids. So far each of them has shown some signs that they are the real deal, but it will take a couple of seasons till you know.
Its possible that all of them will shine, even if it isn’t at the projected levels, doubtful that they would all fail, or that just one would emerge out of that group.
I’d hate it if Farnsworth stays and has a good year. Why, close your eyes and imagine him pitching for us in the playoffs. I’d rather watch Hostel.
i’m glad that at least a few of you posters out there are concerned with grammar. i’m not a stickler myself (i don’t mind ending a sentence with a preposition or misusing a dash) but some of the accepted grammar on the internet is just infuriating.
Classic and classy all at the same time.
Horne, Marquez, Wright, and Melky for Ian Snell and Damaso Marte. Deal or no deal? The Pirates get a cheap ,young center fielder, and two legit pitching prospects, especially in the Nl Central, plus a guy like Wright, who is considered a better prospect than Yankee fans give him credit for. Horne and Marquez could win spots in that rotation this year, and Melky goes right into that lineup. The Yankees get a very good lefty reliever in Marte, and a 26 year old starter coming off a 200 inning, 3.76 era season.
Joe_Southern_ NH I never heard of him either.
Vader,
Only desperate teams want to pay the market rate for pitching these days.
The preference is to build your pitching staffs from within.
When you see what guys like Riske and Linebrink are getting and step back and realize the “winning” team has to write a 130+ million dollar check for Santana, that scares everybody in baseball.
I like the Viz as much as anybody. Would I pay 5 million for him? No way. I’d rather give the shot to Veras or Ohlendorf and see how it goes before overpaying for the Viz.
Its an awful lot of money to put on your books. Especially for pitchers, since the position is such a fragile one.
We as fans sometimes forget this is still a business. GM’s have a responsibility to not saddle their franchises with too much debt.
Some risks, you take. Others, you don’t.
Everyone is crowing about the Tigers deals. But, examine them further. They traded their 3 best prospects (Maybin, Miller and Jurgins) in the Cabrera/Willis and Renteria trades.
They have no depth in their system to help the big club if there are injuries. They are also an old team.
With Zumaya out for the season, they are short in the bullpen. Tood Jones, a guy they didn’t even want, is still the closer.
If Willis regains his 2005 form, they are tough. If he doesn’t, they don’t have enough pitching to win.
Cashman has said the same thing for 3 years now and nobody in the media wants to believe him.
Their goal is to build their pitching from within, have enough depth to withstand injuries and possible trades, and do it over the long haul.
Its the right way to go if you have the patience to see it through.
I don’t doubt the Yankees will keep their finger on the pulse of the Santana talks. However, its pretty clear by now, they aren’t giving up Hughes in any deal. That ship has sailed.
If Bill Smith wants to call the Yankees and offer up scenarios that work for him (minus Hughes), I’m sure the Yankees would listen.
However, if I was Smith, I’d keep Santana and play it out until the trade deadline.
He’s not going to receive a package better than the one he turned down from the Yankees at this time and he knows it.
That’s why he didn’t do the deal with the Red Sox.
james,
It’d be worse if the Yankees send him away, and pay to watch him pitch lights out. They just need him to focus when he’s out there.
Here’s a scouting report on Mike Gardner…
http://angels.scout.com/a.z?s=.....8;c=704605
Chris NY He was vague about his six starters and the reporters asked him about having a six man rotation but it sounded to me like he didn’t want the players involved to think anything should be taken for granted nor should they think they wont have a chance (while being deferential to the veterans i.e. Mussina).
Sj44- I heard the Tigers might want to trade Willis and I-Rod to the Mets. The Mets obviously would have to take on I-Rods salary and likely extend him. Have you heard anything about this?
Gosh your optimistic mel. I wish I could be like you.
That deal makes no sense for the Yankees unless Jason Bay is in it.
The rumor was Bay, Snell and Marte for the Yankees package.
Whole different deal when you add Bay to it.
The worse is the your/you’re thing. Is it customary on the net to completely ignore apostrophes in contractions? Even if it is, people here get those two words mixed up all the time.
GSS, totally agree. I don’t think it needs to be as though you are composing a paper for an English course, but there should not be a complete breakdown of skills because of being on the internet.
Robert, I agree that the use of thEn and thAn being interchangable is puzzling, but I read a lot of letters and publications in a University, no less, and those same errors are in there. Maybe the teachers don’t think it makes much of a difference if the students use it incorrectly.
When I went to school, no matter what class you were in, errors in english were marked on papers you handed in and points taken off. Didn’t matter if it was History or Science. It might be that things like that helped ingraine the rules in our minds, and it does not happen like that anymore.
Some folks think the Tigers acquired Willis to flip him to another team.
That makes little sense to me because of what they gave up to get him.
Unless they get back Brian Schneider, they traded Pudge’s backup in the Marlins deal. Trading Pudge would leave them without a catcher.
I’m sure the Mets are looking to do something. Their team, as presently constructed, is not good enough to win the NL East.
I just don’t know what they can give the Tigers to make a deal palatable to them.
well now YOU ARE a douche mel
or YOUR a douche take your pick douche
james,
There’s reason for hope. His last 5 or 6 outings were very nice. Only 1 earned run or something. A vote of confidence from the manager and the pitching staff working with him might help. We have to remember that Torre was a handler not a nurturer. And really at this level you shouldn’t have to be. But there are some cases that might be worth the effort, esp. if they’re costing you $5M.
james,
LOL. I didn’t see that you did that. Wasn’t picking on you. Seriously.
Bay, Snell and Marte… I know you can never have enough pitching, but do we want/need another ML starter if we keep the big 3 (thus have 6 ML starters)?
SJ that is who I heard would likely be part of a deal back to the Tigers.
Yanks lose Mike Gardner to Padres in Rule 5 draft….
A-point,
If we are talking grammar, maybe we should about spelling too.
“ingraine”
Drop that e off the end.
Let’s forget about baseball and just learn the english language on here ha.
Farnsworth in a contract year. If he is ever going to be good it’s going to be this year. I personally like that he is a headhunter with a gun for an arm. I think he can setup and be above average compared to other league setup guys. Joe G is going to have to earn his money on Kyle.
loose vs. lose
chose vs. choose
dominant vs. dominate
55third,
We learn lots of stuff here. HMTL coding, English lit, spelling, grammar…
This might be crazy but that hasn’t stopped anyone before:
I wonder if pitching some of the kids in tandem with Joba and Phil (Joba for 5/White for 4 for example) to start the year would make any sense as a way of everyone being used but not overused. With the quantity of young pitchers the Yanks have it might give them a chance to see a large enough sample size of innings from some of these guys who might have the skills but otherwise be blocked or not used enough to see it. It would be like a 7 man rotation but everyone would be pitching on regular rest. Would also help the traditional bullpen relievers in limiting innings.
mel,
If you weren’t calling him out, that was hilarious timing then.
Is this easier for everyone to read?
“if u wernt callin him out rotfl timin than lol”
Hey James, Watch the language, Mel doesnt stand for Melvin, it stands for Melanie (I think). Either way she is a girl, watch the language.
I admit I am not the best speller in the world but if I don’t know how to spell something, I go to http://dictionary.reference.com/ and double check I am using the correct word and spelling.
Well sorry mel.
jennifer – can you spell “obsessive compulsive disorder”?
Mostly kidding Jennifer.
When the hell did this turn into English class.
I agree jmase
Funny, when I was typing it I was thinking of using the word “ingrained” realised my mistake and just took off the “d”.
I mean James
I agree with you SJ44. People are underplaying the package the Marlins got for their 2 guys. Maybin and Miller are going to be absolute studs. If you look at it its one stud and 2 “lesser” prospects per All star. Thats a good deal for both sides and if Dontrell stays what he is… mediocre at this point… and Miller lives up to his potential than the Tigers may well have lost out a little bit. I think that Cashman’s plan is a good one, and i’ve liked it since I started following the minor leage teams in about 2004.
Only thing i dont agree with is that Santana will fetch more at the deadline. Can a contending team really risk dealing their ML ready youth? They wont get Hughes for us if he is 6-2 or better at the deadline ill tell you that…
James,
LOL, that was mild. GOTWINS! called me a female dog.
Do you think Snell could be a good starter in the AL East. I am not completely sold.
OCD
Its hard to type fast spell correctly make everything grammatically correct and keep in the flow of what is being discussed.
Perhaps we could out Jason Bay at first?
james, it turned that way when there wasn’t much going on to talk about in the Baseball world.
**from us if the grammar police have noticed my post : )
Why does it make no sense? The Yankees get Matre, and trade guys who may become good pitchers for someone who is a good pitcher.
A little outside the box thinking…..
It may be crazy but that hasn’t stopped anyone on here before.
I wonder if pitching some of the kids in tandem (Joba for 5/DeSalvo for 4 for example) to start the year would make any sense as a way of everyone being used but not overused. With the quantity of young pitchers the Yanks have it might give them a chance to see a large enough sample size of innings from some of these guys who might have the skills but otherwise be blocked or not used enough to see it. It would be like a 7 man rotation but everyone would be pitching on regular rest. Would also help the core bullpen relievers in limiting innings.
I concur with SJ44′s thought that the Santana deal can be re-visited.
Andy Pettitte’s return loomed large for both the Yankees and Boston with any Santana dealing. It took some pressure off the Yankees knowing they had a trusted lefthander in the rotation resulting in them re-thinking and finally withdrawing.
Boston was alone to fish or cut bait with Minnesota changing their stance and perhaps realizing they could open up a can of worms. An unhappy Beckett demoted to a No. 2 in both status and salary would not be advisable. A contract adjustment would be required. Gammons himself alluded to that fact.
Consider the week respectable if Cashman returns to New York with Marte and Mahay in hand and solving the lefthanded bullpen question.
Save a 2008 spot in the Trenton bullpen for Mike Gardner. I would doubt that the Padres will choose to keep him in the major leagues for the full season. And the $25,000 that the Padres will pay the Yankees for the spring training trial will pay a large portion of Gardner’s 2008 salary. Just my speculation.
I thought your were being clever!
Mel – I was trying to be clever…but it’s hard for me.
the one interesting thing about the Tigers deal is that it proves the Tigers had the chips AND the payroll room to make a deal for Santana. yet they opted not to.
i find that interesting, b/c the Tigers are not necessarily a dumb team. Dombrowski seems to know what he is doing. they chose Cabrera over Santana.
A-point,
No worries, just be careful out there.
I know this is not Johan talk, but I saw that the Rangers might look at bringing Gagne back.
I was hoping he would stay with the Sox and continue to be their setup guy, haha.
james,
Yes, I agree, it is easy to make simple errors when you’re typing fast.
“A contract adjustment would be required. Gammons himself alluded to that fact.”
here we go again.
Rob NY, I had those same thoughts about trading during the season. I think at that point teams are open to prospects a bit more, maybe some who are blocked by other players, some who should be ready in the following season.
I don’t see them getting a Hughes, but it could open them to center a larger quantity deal around a Horne or Jackson. (That was a for instance, not a proposal.)
It also depends on what the players who are currently MLB ready are doing for their team and if they have a ready replacement able to be moved right in.
The biggest problem with moves like that are they usually over pay and it costs depth.
I think the Tigers lineup looks very good, the rotation is a little weak and based a lot on turning pitchers around from their prior years, or hopes that they will remain healthy. The Tigers lost depth in their system though, their team is a pretty old team in terms of average age. Average age for the team translates into higher risks for injury.
mel – yes, those too! Worse / worst is another one lately. English has always “evolved” but internet writing really accelerates the spread of mistakes like never before.
I pity the dictionary writers who will have to soon give up and define “literally” as follows: “figuratively.” Or: “meaningless.” Oh, you literally were scared to death? Really?
A-Point, I remember getting points off and red corrections for any grammar mistakes too, and I’m under 30. Sad to hear Universities are seeing the same mistakes. It’s like when major league managers feel like they shouldn’t have to teach fundamentals because guys should learn that in the minors. Well if they didn’t learn to hit the cutoff man or back up plays, then you still have to teach them right from wrong in the majors.
See – it all comes back to baseball.
hmmm, I really have to wonder why there seems to be a lack of interest in Santana. The media keeps pounding on the Saux getting him for the original package or a smaller package with one Ellsbury added.
How is that exactly a negotiation? If the proposed packages have not changed then why are they still talking. What the heck could they be saying?
BSmith: I want Lester and Ellsbury.
Theo: No. Either or. These guys are future HOF players who will kill us if we lose them.
BSmith: I still want them. I like Lester and Ellsbury.
Theo: I like them too. Still no.
I really don’t see this coming off unless there is more movement from the Red Sox, BSmith is on drugs, or BSmith is the stupidest man on earth.
“i find that interesting, b/c the Tigers are not necessarily a dumb team. Dombrowski seems to know what he is doing. they chose Cabrera over Santana.”
The Tigers were probably afraid that if Miller and Maybin do become stars they’d be facing them multiple times a year. That probably scared the bejesus out of them.
There you go, Robert. Anyway, irregardless of the worster postings we are seeing on the internet, I would still literally rather be on this site, then doing work.
How was that?
A few things from left field…
What is the current status of first base? As of today, is it a platoon of Shelley and Giambi (yikes!) with APhillips being DFA’d. Any talk of bringing Minky back? He was a solid gritty inexpensive solution to first base (especially after coming back from injury). That guy can be on my team any day of the week.
One name that I haven’t heard mentioned all off-season that is surprising (not just from a Yankee-centric viewpoint) is Carlos Pena. As far as I know, he is still a free agent. I can’t believe some team isn’t going after this guy hard after the season he put up.
Gitmo: Pena needs to be more than five minutes removed from his “breakout” season for me to consider him anything more than a fluke. He couldn’t even break out of AAA for us.
woke up after sleeping on an idea, Tigers want Farnsy right ? how about about Farnsy for Dontrelle ?
“One name that I haven’t heard mentioned all off-season that is surprising (not just from a Yankee-centric viewpoint) is Carlos Pena. As far as I know, he is still a free agent. ”
he’s not a free agent. that’s why.
I know this was posted about way up at the top and i’m jumping in late but the reason you don’t see more trades of Desalvo, Henn, Rasner, White, is cause most teams already have those guys. The Nationals were horrible and they let go of Rasner, most teams have drafted well enough to have a few AAAA guys on team that can be called up in case of an emergency. Sure sometimes you see those trades ie Clippard but most of the time these players get cut from the 40 man roster after awhile when new players need to be added or just get picked up at minor league free agents.
Pena isn’t a free agent.
Pena is NOT a free agent.
It doesn’t sound like a total lock that Shelley will be ready for st.
anyone catch this ?
source
Jason Bay didn’t hit .250 last year.
Gitmo – Pena isn’t a free agent yet. He is arbitration eligible, I believe, but under Tampa Bay’s control.
A-Point. Stunningly bad. Great work!
I know I’m biased as a Yankee fan, but I honestly think Ellsbury is overhyped. He looked great in October, but even if he improves on his minor league numbers (i’m not swimming in stats, but I believe his AAA Ops wasn’t much over .800, if at all?) he’s still not a superstar. Can he really turn into much more than a better version of Coco Crisp? Speed, defense, average, little power. And isn’t that even far from a sure thing? Why is he being considered such a trading chip, and not possibly Kevin Maas, Boston edition. (speed, etc, in place of power)
“they (tigers) chose Cabrera over Santana.”
hmmmm, do you think they chose cabrera or they knew that the twins wouldnt trade santana within their division?
A-Point
I suspect the reason the Twins and Sox are still ‘talking’ about the Santana trade is because both are interested in goading the Yankees into trading away the farm. Since the Yankee ‘deadline’ passed there have been a steady stream of rumors of various alternatives the Yankees might not like, such as Santana to the Mets or Haren off the market, with the apparent goal of getting the Yanks to up their bid. All that has happened that the Yanks thought the Twins and Red Sox were bluffing and they called their bluff. And from all signs they were bluffing. The imminent trade that the various reporters were leaking didn’t happen, Billy Beane and others have popped the other trial balloons the Twins tried to float and now the Twins are talking about maybe keeping him. It seems to me the reality is the Sox were never interested in anything but making trouble for the Yanks, which they accomplished, and the only one seriously interested in Santana was the Yanks. The Twins wanted to get more than Hughes, Melky plus and overplayed their hand. for now. I’ll be very surprised if the Sox get back in the picture in any serious way.
Matsui for Lincecum! Guy can dream, can’t he?
LIES YANKEES MANAGEMENT TOLD ME
1) IF THE YANKEES ACQUIRED SANTANA THEIR PAYROLL WOULD BALLOON TO $230 MILLION-
LIE! Santana is under contract for $13 million in ’08.
(About the amount of payroll obligation the Yankees free in ’08 because they no longer have to subsidize The Old Unit [$2 mil], Javier Vasquez [$3 mil], and Jared Wrights’ [$4 mil], the loss of Vizcaino [$3 million], and of course obviating the need to spend $18 million on Clemens.) Hence, Keeping the ’08 payroll at about last year’s figure of $200 million.
2) SANTANA’S EXTENSION WOULD DENY THE YANKEES PAYROLL FLEXIBILITY FOR THE FUTURE.
LIE! An extension for Santana would begin to pay Santana in ’09 at about $22 million. And in ’09 the Yankees lose between $60 million and $80 million in payroll with the expiring contracts of Mussina, Giambi, Abreu, Farnsworth, and Pavano.
Which would mean even with Santana the Yankees payroll for ’09, with Santana, would remain far below $200 million.
3) PHIL HUGHES WOULD WIN CY YOUNG AWARDS FOR THE TWINS
WISH-FULFILLMENT! The Yankees appear the only organization in baseball that projects Philip Hughes’s ceiling to exceed that a 2nd starter. From Keith Law to Jim Duquette to Billy Beane, the consensus appraises Hughes as a 3rd starter with the potential to develop into a 2nd starter if he refines his change up.
$) THE YANKEES HAVE ENOUGH STARTING PITCHING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES AS PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED
Really with two starters scheduled to pitch 150 innings and a third, 190 innings. Joba and Hughes pitched approx. 115 innings in ’07; Kennedy 165 inning. That would set Joba and Hughes to pitch about 150 innings this year and Kennedy about 190 innings. A total of 490 innings for three starters. That would require either Mike Mussina or Kei Igawa to bridge the 120 inning difference. And if God forbid Wanger or Pettite spend time on the disabled list, Rasner or Karsten would have to pitch 30 to 40 innings.
Sorry I cannot forgive Cashman for rebuffing Minnesota’s offer of Hughes-Cabrera-Marques-Hilligoss for Santana.
And furthermore I have no faith in Cashman’s evaluation of major league starting pitching.
From Jeff Weaver to Javier Vasquez to Kevin Brown to Randy Johnson to Jose Contreras to Carl Pavano to Kei Igawa, Brian Cashman’s record of decisions on starting pitchers is one of miscalculation, presumption, ineptitude, and blindness.
The more I think about Cashman’s decision on Santana, the angrier and more indignant I get at this man’s hubris and recalicitrance.
If the Giants want Matsui who would the Yankees get back?
pena has two years before he can become a free agent, short article about him here
http://www.tboblogs.com/index......pena-deal/
Brandon,
Noah Lowry could be the guy the Giants are dangling, really doubt Lincecum or Cain is available unless they get blown away, there has been talk of Rios to the Giants.
Matsui for Cain, Matsui for Lincecum, either way god let it be true !!
The ball is in the Giants’ court in a deal for Toronto right fielder Alex Reyes. The Reds also are interested in Rios. The Giants and the Yankees have discussed left fielder Hideki Matsui for a starter. Matsui does have a complete no-trade clause
Robert O’Kelly,
Ellsbury is literally is untouchable because of his dreamy eyes. They need to keep selling the pink caps.
Let’s try an anology, class.
Ellsbury:Boston as Jeter:New York.
Ellsbury, besides being a good hitter, has star quality and marketing power akin to Jeter. That’s why he won’t be traded. Oh, yeah, he’s young and cheap, too.
Buddy Biancalana, I see alot of Petitte in Lowry but it would have to be Cain or Lincecum just because of the Matsui merchandising
PLEASE TRADE MATSUI!
I think the Yankees might have to throw in a pitcher if they either want Lincecum or Cain.
Why should the Yankees care what the Mets do. Let them get Santana. I don’t care.
There would be a certain comfort level for Matsui on the West Coast, but I think he really likes being a Yankee. For him to accept a trade out of New York, would be like getting demoted. It would be shameful for him personally.
Besides, Lowry, Cain or Lincecum can’t get us 30HR/100RBI.
By GEORGE KING Hank Steinbrenner today didn’t close the door entirely on trading for Johan Santana, but he didn’t give the Yankees much of a chance to revisit the deal. “I don’t rule anything out,” Steinbrenner said. “But I have a feeling he is going to be traded in the next couple of days.” Steinbrenner didn’t say what team was getting Santana.
Matsui to Giants for a starter? Who have they got that’s both established & good, but not $$$ Zito?
Cain? Eeeeehhh … not much of an upgrade for NY.
I think Lincecom’s got talent but he’s still too green to trade someone like Matsui for.
Trade someone besides Matsui for Lincecom? Depends who. None of the big 3 thats for sure. One ‘A’ OF prospect with a couple of ‘B’ prospects? Maybe.
I’m biased to keep Matsui. He’s still got something to offer here. Even with his bad knee he still had an OK year, and is way better than Jason Bay, who’s been mentioned in other meaningless rumors.
The shock of no one stepping up to trade for Santana is washing over me. He really is a franchise player and no one made it happen. It’s unbelievable that the Angels or Dodgers don’t wanna pay him, Yankees and Red Sox wont trade away the prospects and the Mets don’t have the prospects to deal. I told my brother (who is a Met fan) that the best thing that happened to the Yankees a couple of years ago was that no one wanted Cano or Wang and they laughed at Melkey. Of course that doesn’t mean his collection of prospects is worth a bucket of moose piss.
Ranting Guy if Matsui gets me Lincecum or Cain I’m packing his bags
mlb.com is reporting that the Yankees drafted Bo Hall, a righthanded relief pitcher from the Brewers organization in the AAA phase of the minor league portion of the Rule 5 draft. He is 27 years old. Pitched in AA in 2007. Has gotten a lot of Ks over his career. His BB ratio went up dramatically in 2007, giving him a high WHIP although he has lowered his ERA. I would think that he is likely to repeat a AA year, this time at Trenton.
Matsui item is complete garbage. Unless he asks to be traded he won’t be. He means to much to the Yankees in marketing and global reach.
Ranting Guy–What’s not to like about Matt Cain? Or Lincecum?
james,
I’m curious as to why you and your brother cheer for different New York teams. It’s a common thing but there’s no rhyme or reason.
Also, can someone clue me in to the geographical loyalties of New York. Like which boroughs cheer for the Mets and which cheer for the Yankees. CT prefers the Yankees? Jersey prefers?
Kill Schilling,
Recommend you stop taking it so personally, buddy. Ha!
Maybe you or someone else can explain something to me. What objective criteria is there for saying a pitcher is a “#3, or a “#4″? I have been following the game for longer than many on here have been alive and it seems to me pitchers have up and down years just like hitters. So then logically it would follow that their ranking in the order would change also. There are of course exceptions (Koufax, Clemens) but my point is I guess that it seems like many want to lock a pitcher into a numbered spot on the rotation by a SWAG (mil-speak for scientific wild-ass guess).
Kill-Schill(ing) – from what I read, Santana isn’t so much looking for an extention as he is toward ripping up the current contract for a nice, clean fresh one. That is part of the additional money for this year’s budget.
Even if the old one wasn’t replaced, it could include some kind of signing bonus to make it amount to the same thing.
A lot of the things you site are meant to give public reasons for making the stance they made. I am not so convinced that the Yankees had such a desperate desire for Santana being that they knew that Pettitte was returning, probably before the news on it was announced. The Yankees might have been watching what the Sox were doing, got them involved with all this Santana business to keep the Sox occupied there instead of focusing on other things.
The cost for Santana was too high. Despite what its being billed as, it was a one year rental and the Twins were playing it as though it was getting this pitcher for life.
In hind sight, maybe there was a bit of tampering going on with Hank’s words. They might have known that it was going to play the way it went. After all, they did turn down some package with Hughes in it that they said was too much, even though it sure didn’t seem that way to us.
Who really knows? Only those involved and they only know their little bit parts.
OK…big snafu on my part regarding Carlos Pena’s contract situation, however, no one has addressed the current first base scenario. Shelley may not be ready for spring training, and I honestly do not see him as anything more than a big right handed bat off the bench that could spell some at first and corner outfield. Giambi at first? Please only in moderation please. Based on the previous few seasons, he can’t be counted on to stay healthy. Beyond that? I say bring back Minky. He is a gamer. On the farm, I don’t believe there are any major league ready first baseman. Thoughts?
Matsui has been timd since his injury. He is DEAD WEIGHT. If he can get one of the Giants youngins SO BE IT.
I’m hoping nobody wants to touch Gagne, then the Yanks offer him $1m, a free shave, a uniform that fits, and an autographed bottle of Driven. He proceeds to throw 70 set-up innings with an era around 2.00. Theo cries quietly as Manny pets his head.
(yes, I know Texas has shown interest in repeating their move from last year – he certainly paid off for them!)
Yanksrule57, SWAG indeed.
Gitmo, there could be some ideas in the works, but there were also no roster spots open, so I wouldn’t overly worry about 1st right now. Other than to speculate on who we’d like to see there.
Fire’s about to go out so maybe here is some gas?
“the Giants and Yanks have discussed Hideki Matsui” – from the Toronto Sun’s Bob Elliot
Interesting.
Jersey is interesting–seems like it’s divided into the upper and lower halves. Growing up in Central Jerz all the kids loved either the Mets or Yanks. When I moved to Philadelphia a couple years ago–of course everyone here likes the Phillies, but what I didn’t realize is that everyone from South Jerz likes the Phillies as well. That’s why when someone derided me as being a bandwagoner for rooting for the Yankees because I wasn’t from New York, my explanation of “I’m from Jersey, duh” didn’t suffice, because it was assumed that I could also just choose to root for the Phillies. But no, we didn’t have any of that nonsense going on in my part of Jersey.
If the Yankees thought they could get that guy for Matsui alone they would have tried to trade Matsui yesterday.
Cain was 22 years old during the season last year and in 200IP’s he gave up 173 hits and had a 3.65 ERA. If he did that while pitching for the Yankees he’d have won 19 games last year.
Yanksrule,
The difference between a #3 and a #4 is very subtle. 3 is closer to 2 and 4 is closer to 5. There’s prolly a difference of a few million dollars, too. j/k.
Maybe a #3 can be trusted in a crucial game in a playoff series where you might consider going to your #1 if you didn’t totally trust your #3 and if there were enough days of rest.
I highly doubt Matsui would fetch either Cain, or Lincecom. Personally, I think a straight up deal for Rios would be dumb on the giants part. You win with pitching, and pitching is at a premium in this league, so I’d never make that deal. Rios isn’t enough IMO. Not in today’s MLB environment. Matsui could fetch Lowry, but the question is would you even want him? Lowry might get crushed in the AL East with his 1.55 WHIP, 87 walks in 156 IP, 1 to 1 BB/K, and 5.02 K/9ip. I wonder though if the Giants would move Cain/Lincecom for Matsui & some prospects. Matsui could be a marketing bonanza for SF & the high asian population on the west coast.
I’d love to get Cain or Lincecom.
“$) THE YANKEES HAVE ENOUGH STARTING PITCHING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES AS PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED”
Not a lie at all. As I said in another post, the ERA of Yankees starters last year not named Andy or Chien-Ming was 5.21 in 98 games covering 499 innings, or 5.1 innings a start. Those starters went 31-31. If Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy average a 4.50 ERA and pitch no more than 450 innings, and the Yankees get pretty close to the same hitting as last year, they could easily win 98-99 games.
Kill Schill, Hughes is projected as a 2 who can develop into a 1 by most scouts that i have seen except for Law. Baseball America had him as the top pitching prospect in all of baseball last year, and BP still has him ahead of Joba. You basically named the three people who dont value him that much.
mel – I grew up in CT, and it’s pretty much split between NY/Bos, with the odd sprinkling of Mets fans. (Use of “odd” intentional). Once you’re about an hour and a half from NYC (to the east) it starts to shift over to Boston fans. Obviously there’s a lot of overlap. Most people in the rural parts (i.e., not Fairfield County, and deeper into New England) are Boston Fans. I wasn’t around in the early-mid 80′s, but I’d bet there was a lot more Mets fan presence then.
There are more mets fans in the more blue-collar towns, like Bridgeport, but also a lot of people who used to be Brooklyn Dodger fans.
Thanks, guys.
“Horne, Marquez, Wright, and Melky for Ian Snell and Damaso Marte.”
I wouldn’t do it, giving up too much and we have starters already so why Snell?
“hmmmm, do you think they chose cabrera or they knew that the twins wouldnt trade santana within their division?”
this is a very good point.
but Maybin and Miller blows away the Sox offer.
also, people were assuming no one besides the Yankees and Sox would pay Santana, but the Tigers just took on about $20M in payroll.
Mel, i’ve got one more for you. “Worse” vs. “Worst”. Hit the dictionary and come back once you’ve learned your lesson!
Thx
Mel,
Thanks, you just proved my point. There’s really no objective criteria it’s just “gut feel”. Kind of like the old Supreme Court Justice when speaking of the definition of pornography “I know it when I see it”. Well I know a #1 pitcher when I see one. And I could define him as someone I want to have the ball with my season on the line. but how do you define a #2, #3 etc?
And Matsui is not dead weight. Take out the year he got hurt, and he’s never hit under .285, never had an obp under .350, had an ops under .855 once (rookie season), never been below 100 rbi’s , and only once under 100 runs (rookie). He had one bad month to end the year and suddenly all Yankee fans see him as dead weight. He was killing the ball when the Yanks got back into the race over the summer.
Jersey is all Yankees until you get far enough south that it turns into the Phillies. Queens and most of Brooklyn Mets. Bronx And Staten Island all Yankees. Manhattan pulls people in from all over the country so it has many Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers ect ect fans.
I’m from and still live in the Bronx
My oldest brother didn’t like sports at all growing up. Most of the family took to the Yankees from my father who was born in the Bronx. My brother took to Star Trek and reading and not leaving the house much. Until he got a job at a pizzeria run by Mets fans so he ended up listening to all the games on the Radio and became a fan. Two other exceptions are my other brother who grew up playing but not liking to watch baseball. Now he likes weed and tivo. My mother was a heart broken Dodger fan from Brooklyn. She hated baseball when I was growing up but I can proudly say my sisters and I have fully converted her to the Yankees.
“I think Lincecom’s got talent but he’s still too green to trade someone like Matsui for. ”
are you serious?
i don’t dislike matsui, but the yankees would do this deal in a heartbeat.
i don’t think the giants would though.
giambi’s sweat stain,
Ha! I didn’t even notice that. Thanks.
Hmmm,
Santana has no interest in playing for the Tigers. He would veto a trade to Detroit.
Dombrowski probably knows this and, along with the Tigers and Twins being in the same division, probably prevented any conversations from taking place.
Matsui isn’t waiving his no trade clause. Not going to happen. He is staying in NY.
The Giants called the Yankees. Not the other way around.
Who did the Yanks drop from the 40 to make room for Hall?
james,
That’s funny. Definitely potential for a screenplay.
Also, I don’t know what all the 2,3,4 talk is about Hughes. Young for every level he played at in the minors Hughes had a career 2.03 era and .86 WHIP. That’s not a 2, 3, or 4, that’s a fricking 1.
“Dombrowski probably knows this and, along with the Tigers and Twins being in the same division, probably prevented any conversations from taking place.”
yeah, like i said, this was a good point.
Oh, and in my part of the pond, we’re fond of saying “the worstest…”
Dev, A-Point, Yankees’57, may you all prove right and may I prove an alarmist.
But I can’t see how the Yankees make the playoffs, let alone advance past the ALDS with Joba and Hughes capped below 150 innings and IPK capped at 190.
After they exceed 150 innings, what the heck do you do with them? How do you prepare them for the September stretch drive or even the playoffs if you qualify?
It’s one thing to have a 4th or 5th starter with such a constraint. Quite another when 60% of your starting rotation is subject to it.
Perhaps, I’m just a pessimist, but I didn’t believe Yankees’ management either when they said they could win without A-Rod.
Phil I think he goes into the Yankees minors. That after the first round you get to protect a bunch more players and if someone gets taken in later rounds they don’t go on the 40 man
SJ44,
The Giants called the Yankees. Not the other way around.
That makes sense to me. The Giants lost the only decent hitter on their team and are looking at fielding a lineup that will scare no one. Matsui could fill Bonds old spot in left, bat 3rd, and draw fans from the large Asian population there. It is a very logical move for them. But as you said, he is not going anywhere. Do you know why he would not want to go?
“The Giants called the Yankees. Not the other way around.”
right, they probably called the Yankees offering Noah Lowrey.
i doubt they called the yankees offering Lincecum.
Good job James. Stay loyal ….
http://www.yankeetradition.com.....tadium.htm
Yea, Jersey’s mainly Yanks/Mets. And as we Jerseyians know, South Jersey’s….South Jersey; quite separate from Central/North
(Central Jerseyian here)
SJ44, can you read my “LIES YANKEES MANAGEMENT TOLD ME” and persuade me I’m an alarmist? I’d love persuade myself my pessimism is unwarranted.
trading matsui may be a great baseball move but it’s a terrible business move.
no more yomiuri or amino-vital ads all over the stadium would be nice though.
The Giants would never do a Matsui-Lincecum trade straight up. It would probably take Matsui and Kennedy and I think I would do it.
I AM optimistic however that Giambi is going to rebound and have another big season. He’s still a formidable hitter when healthy and ideal protection for A-Rod.
Moreover, even with the shift, Giambi manages to get on-base about 40% of his PAs.
“Who did the Yanks drop from the 40 to make room for Hall?”
i don’t think they have to put him on the 40 man.
he was taken in the AAA portion of the rule V draft.
Kill-Schill,
Don’t forget, it’s also Giambi’s contract year.
Kill Schilling-
I think your calculation of the Yank’s payroll is a bit off – perhaps the result of too much caffeine? You seem to be forgetting all of the raises being handed out, to Mo, Jorge and ARod not to mention arb increases to Wang and Cano. Per Pete Abe’s post on December 3rd, the payroll (without Santana of course) and assuming Wang and Cano get about $4MM each and Vizaino or somebody like him is signed for around $3MM, the payroll would stand around $207MM. Add Santana for Hughes, you get to $220MM at Santana’s current salary, and who says he would agree to that? He does have a no trade you know. More likely Santana’s 2008 salary bumps up to $20MM+, so that puts you at $227MM+, and then you need a center fielder because Melky’s gone, which my guess is not Damon (if it is, then you’ve got to factor in a fairlydecent defensive hit because Damon in center and Matsui in left is nowhere near Melky in center and Damon in left, and the Yanks know it) but somebody like Rowand, who reports say the Yanks were looking at if the Hughes deal went down, so the payroll goes up to close to $240MM, and you are tied up in center field for the length of Rowand’s contract. So, I say the Yank’s weren’t lying and it is ridiculous to say they were.
Why not keep Hughes, and sign Santana (if he’s available) or Sabathia next year, when a lot of salary does come off the payroll, and then you have a top starter and Hughes for the same price?
“SJ44, can you read my “LIES YANKEES MANAGEMENT TOLD ME†and persuade me I’m an alarmist?”
why would we want to read that? he’s one of the best posters and we don’t want his eyes to start bleeding.
“Why not keep Hughes, and sign Santana (if he’s available) or Sabathia next year, when a lot of salary does come off the payroll, and then you have a top starter and Hughes for the same price?”
because then we’d have nothing to overreact about!!!
Wang could also draw a lot of Asian fans in SF but I don’t think Cashman would trade both Matsui and Wang for Lincecum. Or maybe he would I don’t know.
No 4 Train,
Thank you very much for the link on the new stadium progress. I was just wondering the other day if there was such a site.
It is an alarmist viewpoint.
I guess if you figure that nobody on the Yankees improves in 2008, they are in trouble.
I just don’t buy that theory.
Look at it another way. Johan Santana wasn’t traded at these meetings.
What does that tell you? Everybody, except Dave Dombrowski (who is now calling around trying to shed payroll) in the game are becoming increasingly nervous about dealing their pitching prospects.
Its not just Cashman. Its the entire industry. Mainly, because pitching is WAY overpriced in the marketplace right now.
The Yankees return the same team that scored 968 runs last year.
Do you think Wang will never pitch well again? Chamberlain, Kennedy and Hughes won’t get better?
None of the other young pitchers can pitch?
The new manager won’t make a difference?
I guess if you feel the above questions can be answered in the negative, the Yankees are in “trouble”.
What freaks out some Yankee fans is the uncertainty. Some fans like feeling “certain” about their team.
Its why they gravitate toward names and feel that if the Yankees don’t make any moves, they are somehow worse than they were last year.
I don’t buy that premise.
I doubt all of the LH hitters are going to hit under .240 for the first two months of the season. Which is what happened last year.
I also doubt the entire pitching staff will turn up lame at the end of ST. Which also happened last year.
I think the new manager will make a difference with the team. Especially in the areas of bullpen management and handling a pitching staff.
I think they will stick around the edges of the Santana stuff in case something changes.
I know they are looking to upgrade the bullpen. However, it takes two to make a deal.
Just have to see how things shake out.
All in all, its hard for me to be critical of their philosophy because I have a lot of faith in the young arms in the organization.
There’s concern about Linecum’s durability and motion in the Giant’s Fo and elsewhere. The talk is him being a closer. Watching him is like watching Jim Bouton, John Smoltz or Roger Pavlik pitch. It hurts to watch. Same as watching dontrelle Willis pitching.
“Wang could also draw a lot of Asian fans in SF but I don’t think Cashman would trade both Matsui and Wang for Lincecum. Or maybe he would I don’t know.”
not a chance.
Wang is absolutely crucial to the 2008 yankees.
i know everyone here hates him now b/c he crapped the bed in the ALDS, but his 200+ innings are being counted on to allow the yankees to break in the rookies. that is the same reason pettitte’s return was so huge.
if pettitte and wang take the ball every 5 days and go 6-7 innings, it is going to take a huge amount of strain off the bullpen.
“What freaks out some Yankee fans is the uncertainty. Some fans like feeling “certain†about their team.”
amen. i have been saying this for months.
it’s gotten ridiculously annoying and just stinks of entitlement.
some people want the yankees to obliterate every last unknown before spring training even starts.
if there is one thing the alarmists should have learned last season is that the yankees CAN and WILL make changes to the team AFTER the season starts. imagine that.
the yankees shored up their pen, upgraded their backup catcher, and solidified the bench on the fly last year.
who will be next year’s Joba? we don’t know yet. but we didn’t know about Joba last year either.
all you can do is stack up on live arms. SOMEONE will emerge, the odds are in the Yankees’ favor.
might be sanchez, might be melancon, might be horne or patterson or albadalejo.
it is amazing the amount of whining sometimes.
NJYANKSFAN, I’ve yet to read a report that Santana would demand a rescission of his $13 million contract for ’08 before agreeing to a trade. I’ve only heard he’s asked for an extension. Perhaps you’re aware of a source I haven’t read.
Moreover, I can’t believe that if the Yankees explained to Santana their payroll structure, in particular the $60-$80 million they only rid themselves of before the ’09 season, Santana/Greenberg would refuse an extension commencing in ’09.
Would I prefer to sign Santana or Sabbathia as a free-agent and to refrain from relinquish Hughes and Cabrera for him? Of course. But even Hank conceded yesterday the Twins were likely to trade Santana this off-season, if not in the next few days.
While the Indians seem prepared to offer Sabbathia an extension once Santana sets the market.
BTW, the Yankees can live with Damon in CF for a year. Brett Gardner is an adequate late-inning defensive replacement and scouts think Austin Jack could play CF in the majors in ’09.
HMMN, why would his eyes bleed from reading my post. SJ’s eyes haven’t bled from reading your drivel.
I doubt all of the LH hitters are going to hit under .240 for the first two months of the season. Which is what happened last year.
I also doubt the entire pitching staff will turn up lame at the end of ST. Which also happened last year.
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Hopefully they’re won’t be any idiots in the Director of Performance Enhancement position either.
Thanks SJ44, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.
But as I wrote– while I applaud Cashman’s strategic vision– I have little faith in his execution of it. In particular, I distrust his evalutaion of pitching, in general, and starting pitching, in particular.
Cashman’s record on starting pitcher leaves much to be desired. Perhaps, he’s better at evaluating the guys he himself played a role in selecting. But that remains to be seen.
When he says thing like, “You grow attached to your guys [Hughes, etc.]” I’m become concerned he can’t appraise them rationally.
In rational choice theory, the fallacy is called the endowment effect. Some guy on Kellerman’s show mentioned it yesterday and I looked it up.
Here’s the definition: “People place a higher value on objects they own relative to objects they do not.”
You demand $7.00 for other to purchase the coffee mug you yourself would only pay $3.50 to acquire.
1. Just because it was reported that Cashman turned down that trade doesn’t mean things actually happened that way.
Personally, I find it hard to believe the Twins suddenly backed off on their demands for Horne or a comparable prospect. That’s not to say that Cashman would not have left the negotiations even if the Twins *did* back off on their demands (there had been more than one report of Yankee officials questioning the inclusion of Hughes in the deal); I think part of him was certainly hoping negotiations would fall apart so he wouldn’t have to give up Hughes. But, again, it doesn’t mean things actually happened that way.
As for Santana himself…the Yankees really don’t *need* him. They don’t. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it a thousand times: yes, Santana gives the Yankees their best chance to win next year. But at what price? It sickens me how little stock people are placing in Phil Hughes, who was the consensus number one pitching prospect in all of baseball last season. At the age of twenty. You don’t get to be the number one pitching prospect in all of baseball (anointed such by *multiple* sources) if your ceiling is that of a No. 3 or No. 2 starter.
The kid was working on a no-hitter in his second major-league start *ever* against a pretty decent hitting team in a hitters’ park. And this after more-or-less skipping AAA ball. If that doesn’t scream potential to you, I don’t know what does. Of course he can get injured and burn out, all young pitchers have that uncertainty attached to them, but if every young pitching prospect burned out, there wouldn’t be Santanas and Becketts and Sabathias and Carmonas today! Sometimes you just need to take a risk and see what happens with your own young pitching; a risk that, perversely, is smaller than the risk you’d take with Santana, since you wouldn’t be paying Phil Hughes $25 million a year if he got injured.
…wasn’t Jim Duquette the one who traded Kazmir for Zambrano? Yeah, I thought so. He’s definitely the expert on pitching prospects, and if he says Phil Hughes is a No. 3 starter, by God I’m going to believe him!
Well said, as usual, SJ44. Agree with everything, especially “I think the new manager will make a difference with the team. Especially in the areas of bullpen management and handling a pitching staff.”
I am incredibly optimistic about the young pitchers as well, though it may sometimes come across as obnoxious
“But I can’t see how the Yankees make the playoffs, let alone advance past the ALDS with Joba and Hughes capped below 150 innings and IPK capped at 190.”
I’ll say it again: The Yankees got 500 innings from all starters besides Wang and Pettite last year and still won 94 games. If they get 450 from Joba, Hughes, Kennedy they’ll be more than fine.
Does all dissent amount to whining? Are we to swallow anything and everything Yankee management tells us without questioning its validity or appraising it in the context of their past performance? Does a fan’s allegiance require slavish endorsement of every decision they make? Is Yankees management infallible?
Seems to be there’s quite a large distance between petualance and critical thinking.
Kill, there’s a difference between whining and diagreeing about some things and whining and disagreeing about everything.
Hey, I don’t disagree about EVERYTHING.
I commended the Yankees for re-signing Posada, Rivera, and A-Rod and exhibiting sufficient patience to return Pettitte to the fold.
I just don’t like Cashman’s decisions about starting pitching.
I applaud his trades for position player however- a record that has been remarkable. He obtained Justice and Abreu for little and was smart to exercise Sheffield’s option and trade him for 4 pitchers.
“NJYANKSFAN, I’ve yet to read a report that Santana would demand a rescission of his $13 million contract for ‘08 before agreeing to a trade. I’ve only heard he’s asked for an extension. Perhaps you’re aware of a source I haven’t read.
Moreover, I can’t believe that if the Yankees explained to Santana their payroll structure, in particular the $60-$80 million they only rid themselves of before the ‘09 season, Santana/Greenberg would refuse an extension commencing in ‘09.”
We’re all in the realm of speculation here but I don’t see why Santana wouldn’t ask for a raise in ’08 – he has all the leverage in the negotiation. That’s just my view of human nature. If you can ask for an extension you can ask for a raise – I think the Yanks would certainly need to be prepared for the request. I wouldn’t expect to see that in a report at this point. But in any event, the payroll’s $220MM with Santana at a minimum, even with no raise, not the $200MM you claimed and accused Yank’s management of lying about. Plus, I have seen reports that the Yanks were interested in Rowand if they traded Melky, which makes sense to me for a lot of reasons. I doubt Damon can even be an everyday centerfielder any more, he’s likely to break down, and his lack of an arm will just kill us. All of which makes me think that Yanks aren’t willing to repeat the Bernie experience and suffer through a year with an inadequate center fielder.
But be that is may, there are good reasons to think the Yanks weren’t lying when they said the payroll would go up and be less flexible, good reasons to think the Santana trade had a down side and I think you are being a little close minded and negative to the extent you would accuse the Yanks of lying rather than admit them.
By the way, I’ll believe the Indians will step up to a market contract for Sabathia when they actually do it.
Kill,
I agree that Cashman’s recent signings of starting and relief pitching have not been great (Igawa, Farnsworth(less), ect) however there were many pitchers that old man George had plenty to do with (i.e big unit). In fairness to Cashman, he has only been “calling shots” only as recently as 2-3 years ago without Goerge trumping everything. I give him props for sticking with his kids and allow them to perform in NY. I think he see’s that, and truthfully I hope he stays with that plan.