Loss of Vizcaino may be no loss at all
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 10, 2007 
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A few people e-mailed in this question today.
Luis Vizcaino is a Type B free agent. So once he signs with another team, the Yankees will receive compensation in the form of the first-round “sandwich pick” in the 2008 draft.
Given that the Yankees are willing to pay over slot to get top talent, this pick could prove to be far more valuable than The Viz. Think this stuff doesn’t matter? The Yankees received two picks in the 2006 draft as compensation for losing Tom Gordon as a free agent and selected Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy.
LaTroy Hawkins was not classified, so the Rockies receive no compensation for him.
the yanks will have their first round pick plus this extra pick from viz. look out baseball, the yankees finally learned how to draft.
Wow, awesome for digging up what happened with Gordon and draft picks.
But I’m kinda worried that the Yankees need relief pitching NOW, and draft picks don’t do anything for our bullpen right NOW.
It was really great to have Viz this year, especially when he was ON. And with Girardi being a better manager of the bullpen than Torre, we could have stretched out his goodness even longer this season.
BAH.
From the last thread:
John–Yeah, just a pity the year they won the tournament I was a HS Junior! So I just missed it!
And tell me about defense…NONE of the teams I root for, except maybe the Devils, seem to understand what ‘defense’ is!
I remember Shaw telling us that 1-4 women was going to get date raped. It was scary. He was really nice though…really sad what happened.
I’m a history (medieval european) major and an English minor. The irony is I didn’t get into Newhouse…but I’m running a blog anyway.
What about you?
He was not classified because classification is based on your last 2 years and 2005 wasn’t a good year for him. However, 2006 was so if LaTroy does well this year the Yankees could potentially get a supplemental round pick for him in ’08.
I know it’s a long way off and not even worth thinking about at this point but hey, just saying…
Nor should they
gotta point out the fact that Phil Hughes was a compensatory pick for letting Pettitte go to Houston
Is there a little guy with his pencil and paper locked in a secret room somewhere that classifies each free agent?
“But I’m kinda worried that the Yankees need relief pitching NOW, and draft picks don’t do anything for our bullpen right NOW.”
Signing Viz for three years _might_ have turned out well for this season. But he was probably not going to be good over the duration of the deal. And, there’s also a high likelihood that the last several years will catch up with him _now_
Rebecca – I was also a history major/English minor, though I tossed in a PoliSci major as well. Basically, I majored in reading.
Trapper,
You’re kidding! That means the Big 3 is the Yankee destiny.
“gotta point out the fact that Phil Hughes was a compensatory pick for letting Pettitte go to Houston”
Is this stuff really not common knowledge? Huh. I guess my obsessiveness really skews my reference point for what’s generally known about Yankee stuff.
How do you know they don’t have the solution for their present bullpen issue from within the organization?
Just throwing money and multi-year contracts out to average guys aren’t going to make them above average performers.
A one year deal for Hawkins hurts nobody. If he is isn’t any good, there is no long term commitment. If he can do the job in the 7th inning, you have a guy that can eat some innings, while waiting for the younger arms to emerge.
Its a no risk deal. Precisely what you need to do when building a bullpen.
Nobody in the game has a magic formula for building a bullpen.
If there is one thing we have seen, its that teams that throw a ton of money and years into their bullpens for non-closers (see the Orioles and Cubs in recent years), usually end up regretting it.
Who doesn’t like draft picks?
Nobody beats the Viz…
NOBODY!
Phil Pepe, He just wrote an article for Yes about the Yankees refusing to trade Phil Hughes for Santana and it being a burden for Phil. Is their an editor at Yes. They offered Hughes Pepe, they said it wasn’t enough. Pay attention.
But, in all likely hood we never would have lost the series in 2004 with Andy here.
The NY media is already setting up the framework for some “Non-deserved Phill Hughes hate”. I hope he comes out of the gate strong because the reporters are already smelling blood in the water.
2004 I have no memory of 2004 I remember 2003 and 2005. That weird.
and for anyone who’s interested this upcoming baseball draft is stacked
The media’s just jealous because the fans love Hughes and absolutely HATE hack-artists.
Rebecca,
I graduated from the Whitman School with my MBA in 2005. I enjoyed my time at Syracuse so much i decided to stick around. But sometimes I wonder why… I missed the 03′ run as well. I watched it out at Bar when i was living in Boston. It was a great time.
Brandon – I’m always interested in the draft.. I had read that the high school players have elevated the draft class, because original reports were that it would be a thin crop.
Mike R absolutely right. He doesn’t have to be anywhere close to Santana nor does Kennedy to justify not dealing them. Their younger and cheaper. I wrote in one the Blogs a couple of days ago how the reporters were goading the Yankee fans and Yankee organization about trading Jeter back in 1996 for Barry Larkin. All year article after article about how “you never know about young players” and “If Larkin helps you win a championship he’s worth the price”. Garbage.
I believe the yankees will get the 46th overall pick in next year’s draft as compensation for Viz.
Because they haven’t signed any type A free agents they’ll keep their own first round pick – #28.
They are going to get two talented players with those picks – likely guys who fall due to signability.
The Viz has better stuff than Hawkins – but compare their overall numbers. They aren’t that terribly different (viz strikes out more but also walks more).
I don’t think you can say that the Viz would be much better than Hawkins in 2008 to warrant the difference in contracts- 1 year at $3.75 vs. 3 years for $12 million?
A one year deal for Hawkins also give them flexibility – in 2009 the yankees are going to have a large wave of talented arms who had TJ surgery in 2007 who will likely be able to pitch at the major league level.
Signing Viz to a three year deal not only ties up money in a long term commitments but could block those talented arms – guys like Sanchez, Melancon, JB Cox – they may not be ready in 2008 but there’s a good chance all 3 could be pitching in 2009 in the yankee bullpen. Other guys like Kevin Whelan and Dave Robertson will also probably be ready for the major league pen in 2009.
A one year deal for Hawkins fits the yankees organizational needs.
Getting a sandwich round pick at #46 overall is a significant plus.
The reason you don’t remember is because the world series wasn’t held in 2004 as to not interfere with the Olympics. At least that’s the way I remember it.
How exactly does the classification system work? In other words, how does one get an A or B type free agent classification? Can anyone help me understand this? Thanks.
Its the off-season. People have to write/say something.
You take it all with a grain of salt and form your own opinions once the season starts. All you can do.
I don’t see the logic of throwing out a lot of money to the relief pitchers available in this years FA pool.
None of them are difference makers.
That being the case, I have no issues with giving the young arms in the organization a shot.
If it doesn’t work, you re-tool the ‘pen during the season. Its not like that hasn’t been done in the past.
They will probably have to go outside the organization to bring in a LH specialist.
Aside from that, if I was the GM, I would roll the dice with what I have in the organization if a deal isn’t out there that’s appealing.
James – I read that post from you right here. Brilliant. That was an excellent point.
I know I might catch some flack for what I’m going to write here but here it goes. If we don’t win the World Series next year, but I see solid progress out of Joba, Hughes and Kennedy I think that the season was a success. We really are headed towards a great run in a few years.
Mike R.
The reason you don’t remember is because the world series wasn’t held in 2004 as to not interfere with the Olympics. At least that’s the way I remember it.
okay I wont explore it further then cuz I started to type in to a search engine and I was sweating and felt like I was gonna pass out.
Nic,
The Type A vs. Type B designation is based on analyses made by the Elias Sports Bureau.
Elias looks at the performance of players for the preceding two years and then ranks all players.
As I understand it – Elias does not make the formula/ methodology they use to create the rankings open to the public. They hold it as something like a trade secret.
Overall the rankings can be really strange and often seem arbitrary – two players with similar performance over the last two years wind up with wildly different ranking levels.
It’s hard to make sense of why they are ranked as A or B but that’s the system MLB uses.
“How exactly does the classification system work? In other words, how does one get an A or B type free agent classification? Can anyone help me understand this? Thanks.”
Elias (I think) or maybe Baseball America ranks all players (roughly by position) based on their last two (maybe three?) years of performance.
The top 10 or 15% are Type A, the next 20 or 25% are Type B, and everyone else is unclassified.
I think 1B/OF/DH is one category, SP and RP are separate categories, and everything else is as you’d expect. CFers might be separate, I don’t remember.
Mike R. I agree with you and I would take it further by dedicating the team around those arms and the other kids and not sign guys like Hawkins who are going to take someones roster spot. Although I would get Marte.
those reports are always premature there are high ceiling talents in this draft
a repost from the last thread (paraphrased):
mel – i’m a girl.
Rebecca – it’s techinically flag football, but since most of the people that play are ultra-competitive ex-college athletes, we tend to beat each other up a little. I play linebacker, and I’m usually sore the next day. A lot of the women that play in my league also play in the national women’s football league, the NFL’s sister league. They play all over the country, and they’re extremely dedicated. And, they *really* know what they’re doing – I’m kind of a football newbie, but those women are the real deal.
The Viz was beaten many times last year – early and often.
[quote]Elias (I think) or maybe Baseball America ranks all players (roughly by position) based on their last two (maybe three?) years of performance.
The top 10 or 15% are Type A, the next 20 or 25% are Type B, and everyone else is unclassified.
I think 1B/OF/DH is one category, SP and RP are separate categories, and everything else is as you’d expect. CFers might be separate, I don’t remember.[/quote]Awesome, thanks for the information… I’ve got no problem with signing Hawkins, but given that he was unclassified, why did we have to shell out close to $4 million to get him in pinstripes?
Who is going to pitch the 7th and 8th innings in 2008? Hawkins and Farnsworth??? That’s a recipe for disaster and everybody knows it. We don’t even have Scott Proctor to kick around anymore!!
How low have the Mets sunk? Their GM is forced to say stuff like, “Right now, you have to pick the Phillies [to win the East], because they’re the champs. But I still like our club.”
I don’t like to see others suffer, o.k. I do, but they were the toast of the town a year ago.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3148683
Woulda been nice if Viz coulda given us 1 scoreless inning in game 2.
“Who is going to pitch the 7th and 8th innings in 2008? Hawkins and Farnsworth??? That’s a recipe for disaster and everybody knows it. We don’t even have Scott Proctor to kick around anymore!!”
I worry about this a little bit too… I’m not sure who you go to in the big situations next year. I think Farnsworth has to be better than he was last year (I really don’t think he can get much worse,) but I don’t know if that’s good enough for those innings. Seems like we’re going in with a crap shoot bullpen… hope it all works out.
Brandon – I have my eye on Eric Hosmer. The high school first baseman from FL. I think we might even be able to land him in the sandwich round depending on how the year plays out. A RH power hitting firstbaseman would be great to have in the new stadium.
The new Mets anthem (I linked this yesterday)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJCU4xf5IJE
rb15,
I know, I suffered a similar identity crisis here. I think Pete should do a poll to see how may of us are men and how many are women. There’s a surprising number of “girls” here. Maybe the ads would change if they saw the demographics.
Mike R- The Yankees may be looking for a LHP fireballer in this years draft, maybe even a high ceiling backstop
Raymund Nunez was just signed by the Yankees international scouts word on him good eye at the plate, can pick it at 1B and has a 75 on the 20-80 power scale. I doubt 1B is the big priority.
And as a woman, I also have to say that I’m very glad Tyler Clippard’s mom reads this blog. It gives me hope that maybe some of the Yankees themselves do. Which means…
Hi Derek. How YOU doin?
“those reports are always premature there are high ceiling talents in this draft”
It’ll be really interesting to see who Tampa takes at #1 in the draft next year.
Do they take a guy like Pedro Alvarez if he has another big year? With Longoria their 3rd base situation looks pretty good for the next 10 years (Longoria seems as likely as an prospect in baseball to have a productive career).
Or do the Rays take another college pitcher? Brian Matusz- add yet another high ceiling lefty to their system?
In the best of all worlds a talented left handed arm would fall to the yankees. Or perhaps an athletic corner outfielder?
CB
couldnt have said it better myself.
CB I want the lefty
I dont understand why so many are down on Hawkins. Bullpen pitchers are a more of a crap shoot, unless they are closers for teams. Even then they could be a toss up. Ask Boston last year after picking up Gagne. Hawkins at worse could come in to games that need someone to eat innings. Something Proctor did last year. To say he is going to suck from now is just being blind to bullpen arms.
Who would have thought that Okajima for the Red Sox would have a season like he did last year. His e.r.a. was lower than it was in Japan. Explain that to me.
Explain Sheilds from the Angels losing his setup role last year do to innefectiveness. Or closer Brad Lidge who was traded to Philly. Who would have thought he would be available 3 years ago.
The point im trying to make is 1 year deal isnt going to handcuff us like 3 or 4 (Farns). Viscaino had a couple of bad months last year so its not like Hawkins is taking the place of someone and doesnt have room for error.
Expect our young guys to pick up the slack when needed. Be thankful that we now have Girardi at the helm. Where we can finally depend on youngsters rather than retreads.
“Or perhaps an athletic corner outfielder?”
That’s what Tabata is, if he’s not a CFer:-)
The big holes in the Yankee system are in the middle infield, LHP, and C. With ARod at 3B for the next several years and Posada needing to play a lot of 1B in about two years, I doubt they’re that worried about corner IF right now.
One more thing, If Viz was lights out like some make him seem than we wouldnt have needed to call up Joba last year.
LaTroy Hawkins and the Patriots both STINK !
CB – I think the Rays, or anyone, has to go with the best talent available. In next years case if everything is the same as it is right now, they might go with Smoak because he and Alvarez are close, but you can’t think of it in terms of needs. Look at Milwaukee last year with LaPorta. They’re looking pretty smart right now.
If Alavrez is the real deal and you don’t have anywhere to put him you could always trade him or Longoria to the Twins and Giants of the moment.
Brandon,
I agree. I’d love for them to get a high ceiling lefty. Unfortunatelly, I don’t think it’ll happen.
Lefties are just so difficult to find. Of all the players who are going to fall, left handers are the least likely.
We’ll see. That’s a real need.
“Where we can finally depend on youngsters rather than retreads.”
Or, at least, expect them to get a legit shot:-)
I know I harp on the Britton thing, but seriously…excellent numbers in the minors, a year of solid success in the AL East after jumping up from A ball…why didn’t this guy get a shot? They’d bring him up and he’d sit for days, then get benched when he wasn’t sharp.
I hope newjoe gives him some high-leverage innings if he has a good spring.
amen to THAT !
S.o.S.27 do you want Farnsworth back cuz hes on a one year deal. I wont put words in your mouth but a lot of Yankee fans believe he’s terrible cuz they’ve seen him pitch and would rather he go be a crazy a*#hole someplace else. I’ve seen Hawkins pitch. He’s awful. If you told me to pick 1 of 2 doors and said behind door #1 is a man who’s going to shoot you and I don’t know what’s behind door #2. I’m not going to pick door #1 and hope he misses.
SoS –
I think that’s the idea. There’s a LOT of relief help coming – it’s just that a lot of it may not be ready til midseason at the earliest (Melancon, Humberto Sanchez, Robertson, Whelan, JB Cox).
1-year deals are the perfect way to bridge from April to August/September, and provide insurance against the pen kids that might be ready for April (Ohlendorf, Ramirez, Marquez?) not getting the job done
CB – I think you still go for the best available guy in any draft. And regardless of organizational needs, pitching always has a premium value in trades.
The other thing – there’s always position players available in free agency. Premium pitching never is. By keeping a (relatively) cost-controlled starting staff and pen, there’s always resources to go get the best free agents to fill voids in the field.
Brandon and CB – This question is for you because you seem to know your stuff. any idea why analysts are down on Jordan Danks? The guy was first round talent out of high school and has been highly touted since, but I rarely see him mentioned on top prospect lists.
“but you can’t think of it in terms of needs.”
I think you can think of it in terms of systemic needs, but not MLB needs. But not to the point where you’re drafting significantly less talented guys just because of the position you think they can play.
Man I never knew you were a women mel? I guess with mel as your name in this blog, I assumed you were a guy. My bad.
Keep the laughs comming MEL enjoy your posts. Comedy at its best or Class Clown of the blog(My original goal here).
“CB – I think you still go for the best available guy in any draft. And regardless of organizational needs, pitching always has a premium value in trades.”
Unless it doesn’t:-)
I mean…if the Twins REALLY think Lester/Lowrie is worth more than Hughes, they’re clearly not putting a premium on pitching.
You guys are too much.
The baseball season also ended when the Yankees were knocked out. There was no more baseball after that.
“Or perhaps an athletic corner outfielder?â€
That’s what Tabata is, if he’s not a CFer:-)
The big holes in the Yankee system are in the middle infield, LHP, and C. ”
Tabata is the Yankees only good corner outfield prospect. Having one corner outfielder in the entire system who projects to be a good player is hardly an organizational strength.
It’s a major need.
On top of that Tabata has never played above A ball and is coming off wrist surgery.
Tabata alone in no way is adequate for their outfield needs in the future.
Matsui, Damon and Abrue are fast approaching their mid thirties. Outfield is going to be a huge need for them. very soon.
Jackson and Tabata have potential but if the yankees want to stay out of the free agent market they really need to reinforce their minor league outfield talent.
On the other hand middle infield and catcher is actually much less of an organizational need because of what they did in the 2007 draft.
For middle infield they drafted Damon Sublett, Justin Synder, and Carmine Angelini. Bradaeyn Pruitt’s final position is also not decided, though he does look like a 3rd basebman. Sublett, Synder, and Pruitt all had great NY Penn seasons. Angellini is one of the most talented players they drafted. Fell due to signability.
For catchers they drafted Austin Romine and Chase Weems – both are very good prospects. That’s on top of the strong seasons both Cerevelli and Montero had.
“Who is going to pitch the 7th and 8th innings in 2008? Hawkins and Farnsworth??? That’s a recipe for disaster and everybody knows it. We don’t even have Scott Proctor to kick around anymore!!”
OH NO!!! not the 7th and 8th INNINGS!!11!11
in the 7th and 8th inning, all of the rules of baseball change and it becomes 100 X’s harder to get outs than in all the other innings.
the fielders can’t wear their gloves, every batter starts with a 2-0 count, and the other team gets to send up their 3-4-5 hitters no matter who ended the previous inning.
the bullpen will be fine. the yankees have too many good arms in the minors for 1 or 2 of them not to emerge.
you are just scared of going into the season without knowing who those guys are yet. relax.
james-S.o.S.27 do you want Farnsworth back cuz hes on a one year deal. I wont put words in your mouth but a lot of Yankee fans believe he’s terrible cuz they’ve seen him pitch and would rather he go be a crazy a*#hole someplace else. I’ve seen Hawkins pitch. He’s awful. If you told me to pick 1 of 2 doors and said behind door #1 is a man who’s going to shoot you and I don’t know what’s behind door #2. I’m not going to pick door #1 and hope he misses.
Im not a Farns fan. Its not because i doubt his ability. Its his attitude that just doesnt do it for me. Same with Mussina. So to answer your question the first chance they get to rid themselves of Farns I would pack his bags personally and drive him to the airport. I know Hawkins isnt a shutdown pitcher or he wouldnt settle for a one year deal. But he might not have to be. As someone mentioned here, we have a ton of young arms including Britton,Veras, Ramirez(skeptical) and more in the minors that can bridge the gap to Rivera. Just think our last years 8th inning guys aside from Joba had an e.r.a. of over 4. We still won 90+ games.
I still expect Cash to make a trade for a lefty. Hopefullly Marte.
“I know I harp on the Britton thing, but seriously…excellent numbers in the minors, a year of solid success in the AL East after jumping up from A ball…why didn’t this guy get a shot? They’d bring him up and he’d sit for days, then get benched when he wasn’t sharp.”
those days are OVER.
if Britton gets people out, he’s going to pitch.
Clearly, the Twins don’t think the Lester/Lowrie package is a better deal or they would have done the deal.
Its the problem with all of you reading these, “who is ahead in the Santana Derby” columns from the media.
Nobody is “ahead”. You either make the deal or you don’t. It isn’t a race.
If the Boston deal was so superior to the Yankees offer, the Twins would have made the deal.
If the Red Sox REALLY want Santana, they only had to add Ellsbury to the deal and the deal would have been made.
They didn’t add him. That should tell you something.
“I’ve seen Hawkins pitch. He’s awful.”
yes, except every objective measure disagrees with your assessment.
he’s not “awful”.
he’s not great. but he is solidly above average.
“Jackson and Tabata have potential but if the yankees want to stay out of the free agent market they really need to reinforce their minor league outfield talent.”
They’re not going to be able to stay out of the market all together. I’d say having Jackson and Tabata primed to be in AA next season makes it a position of much more strength than middle IF and catcher, where overall the only guy who projects to be in AA next season in Cervelli.
Also, solid hitting OFers are easier to find in free agency than middle IFers. It’s also a lot easier to put together a platoon in a corner OF spot that gives you solid production while not killing you on D.
could be a couple of things, his slump in April probably was microscoped alot, not sure but I think he had toe or ankle surgery and the depth at that position may be more deep than it has been in awhile
Scooter-
I totally agree with you. And yes I forgot about Ohlendorf helping as well.
We made the best relief pitching free agent signing of the year in Rivera(one too many years). The middle relief will fix itself out.
don’t they usually pipe in the super mario bros ‘castle music’ during the 7th and 8th innings as well…
Mike R and Scooter,
I agree you have to take the most talented guy available if you’re Tampa. Mike R. – you’re point on LaPorta is a very good one.
Everyone was scratching his head when they picked him. Now he’s looking like he may be the first guy in that draft to make the majors. What a great A ball/ AFL season he had!
I also do agree with Mike R. on the pitching front – you have to lean in that direction, especially if its tampa.
Tough call because Alvarez looks like he may separate himself from the field.
Mike R. – on Danks – that’s a great question. You don’t hear too much about him anymore. I wonder if he’s gotten overshadowed by Kyle Russell and Brad Suttle? Also, I think its tough for people to get excited when a college player doesn’t hit for power and Danks hasn’t. That stadium at UT is tough to hit homers in but he hasn’t show much pop over the past two years.
“They didn’t add him. That should tell you something.”
It tells me that they weren’t really in it to make the deal, frankly. That said, teams trade to fill needs. If you don’t match up with a team’s needs, you have to give up more value to make a deal. If they’re looking to flip a luxury item just to get some depth for the system, perhaps pitching is valued. But if they’re looking to get MLB-ready pieces back, they usually want specific MLB pieces.
I don’t think that it is all that bad that the Viz is going to “greener pastures”. For the cost, I think Hawkins is a fine deal, if he stinks it up, its only one year, if he does well, then its a good investment for one year allowing young arms to develop more before coming up.
S.O.S. 27,
Why was Okajima’s ERA lower in MLB than Japan? Familiarity.
The first time hitters saw him he was terrific. Later in the year he had a bad stretch they said was due to a “tired arm”. I think hitters were catching up to him.
I bet he will not have as good a year in ’08.
A good example of this on the Yanks is Mariano. He has had less success against Boston because they see him so much.
Like, if a team came to the Yanks and offered a high-ceiling right handed AAA pitcher for Matsui…I don’t think it’d be a good idea to take it. They have a glut of those guys right now. If they offered a high-ceiling AAA catcher, that’d I’d probably take. Because Montereo and Cervelli are several years away and they’ll need a new C before they get here. And, if one of them pushed this hypothetical guy out…then he’d have good trade value anyhow.
hey Roxs how Morales for Farnsy now
“I’d say having Jackson and Tabata primed to be in AA next season makes it a position of much more strength than middle IF and catcher, where overall the only guy who projects to be in AA next season in Cervelli.”
Having two outfielders who are getting ready to play their first season above double A as your top outfield prospects is not an organizational strenght.
It’s not even close to a strength. It’s a huge hole in their system.
Also on middle infield – their best young position player in the organizaton is Cano. He’ll be there for another 10 years. So by middle infield needs you’re primarily talking about shortstop.
They will need to potentially replace their entire starting outfield by 20010 (assuming melky is traded). In comparison Jeter and Cano will still be starting (I dont’ see them moving jeter within the next to years to a new position).
I do agree that outfielders are much easier to get on the free agent market. But I also don’t think the types of deals those outfielders are getting – 5-7 year deals for $80-120 million are the direction the yankees want to go in.
Its unlikely both Jackson and Tabata pan out. If one did the yankees would feel good about it.
They have a very old outfield at the majors. It’s a significant organizational weakness that they need to address in the draft.
yanksrule57-Why was Okajima’s ERA lower in MLB than Japan? Familiarity.
The first time hitters saw him he was terrific. Later in the year he had a bad stretch they said was due to a “tired armâ€. I think hitters were catching up to him.
I bet he will not have as good a year in ‘08.
I will agree with you on Okajima and will go further by saying that Dice k will do worse as well. It does seem like the Japanese pitchers have success early on(different delivery), then once the league figures them out they fall big time(nomo,park).
Whats Igawas excuse?
If its the unfamiliarity of the league,then maybe Hawkins will do decent being he has been in the n.l. for a few years now.
Brandon do you want poor Krazy Kyle to get whiplash? The poor thing, will really hurt his neck.
S.o.S.
You weren’t here the night that we were laughing about Kim Kardashian’s eyebrows and someone made a comment thinking I was guy?
I had to explain that Mel wasn’t short for Melvin. We all had a good laugh about it and agreed that it’s a good idea not to assume anything on the net.
Thus the quote, “The internet, where men are men, women are men, and 14 year olds are FBI agents” (can’t take credit for that one)
Igawa’s excuse is he threw high fastballs. The hitters eyes grew to the size of saucers.
jennifer why would you ever think that I would never ever want that to happen to my favorite pitcher on the NY Yankees
“Rockies Still Looking For Relief
With LaTroy Hawkins out of the picture, the Rockies have turned their attention to Shawn Chacon, Luis Vizcaino, and Kip Wells.”
The Rockies made a big mistake buying out Hawkins option year and they admitted that.
They could have had him for 2008 for $3.25 million. They misread the middle relief market. After buying him out for $250,000 the rockies went back to him to try to sign him for $3.5 million.
They buy out his option and then go back and offer him a raise.
Middle relief is unpredictable. Better to limit your risk.
CB,
Great points, but I wanted to point out Brad’s name is Suttle. I only know this because I saw a lot 0-fers in the box scores from Hawaii Winter Baseball.
I would have never of guessed that. Melony? Bottom line is that i am still in the race for the MAN CLOWN of the blog.
Never noticed Kims eyebrows. Busy noticing the trunk. Cant blame me for that one.
“Having two outfielders who are getting ready to play their first season above double A as your top outfield prospects is not an organizational strenght.”
And how would drafting new guys to start out in A ball help?
The whole Yankee system is bottom-heavy. The draft isn’t going to fix that. Trading from their stable of pitching and low-level guys is the only way to do that, unless they can start moving veterans in deals for prospects.
“In comparison Jeter and Cano will still be starting (I dont’ see them moving jeter within the next to years to a new position).”
Jeter’s deal is up in 2010. He’ll be 36. If he doesn’t move before his deal is over, he should certainly move by then. They’re going to need a new SS, and almost as soon as they’ll need new OFers. At least they have some high-upside OFers looking to play in AA next year. They have no such middle IF guys. Drafting a college middle IFer could at least net them a guy who can start at A or AA.
In reality, none of the positions are positions of depth in the Yankee organization. But OF is the least weak position right now, with two guys that project well moving to AA in the next year. Angelini, Montero, these guys are teenagers and won’t be here for several years.
“But I also don’t think the types of deals those outfielders are getting – 5-7 year deals for $80-120 million are the direction the yankees want to go in.”
An SS replacement for Jeter is going to cost just as much.
mel,
Suttle’s Winter Ball season was hideous. Hard to get over how bad he was.
His Hawaiian Ball season this year might have been a make up for Joba’s phenomenal season last year.
Hitting less than .100 is hard to do. A number of people considered Suttle to be the best pure hitter in the draft.
I agree with CB on the OF front. I think that Jackson and Tabata look great, but we are lacking somwhat in the position. We apparently have some guys in the Dominican that are full of promise. (Kelvin De leon, Abe Almonte, Tyler Grote) Some guys that are a year, maybe a year and a half away. (Tabata, Jackson)
What we are missing are mlb ready talent and in between guys. Charleston and Tampa don’t look like they’ll have much of an outfield next year.
CB,
Not only that, but it took him a loooong time to get his first hit. I felt bad for him, but I’ve no doubt he’ll improve. He has to right?
Now Action was a whole other story. Dude had a lot of extra base hits. I hope he’s ready sooner than later. Supposedly the most exciting player of the league this winter.
Speaking of the Dominican, I have to share: a friend of mine from college has a job with the Red Sox teaching English to the Latino players at the Red Sox academy in the Dominican Republic.
Wrong team, but if that’s not the coolest job ever, then I don’t know what is.
mel,
Didn’t know you were a gal also, (I immediately started thinking back on previous posts to you to try and remember if I ever said anything bad! Argh!) But regardless of gender, you’ve still got my LOHUD HOF vote.
ummm… Carmen Angelini is a SS/3B, Jesus Montero aka “The one that will make you forget Yogi Bera” according to the scouts that signed him is a catcher, OF in the next 5-6 yrs. is going to be deeply filled w/ talent, INF lets just say isn’t to far away either.
*coughs* Carmen Angelini IMO will be the next franchise SS
“And how would drafting new guys [outfielders] to start out in A ball help?”
“They have no such middle IF guys. Drafting a college middle IFer could at least net them a guy who can start at A or AA.”
These comments make no sense together.
Why is it if they draft an outfielder that player will have to start in A ball and won’t help them by 2010.
But if they draft a middle infielder they could take a guy from college who could start at A or AA and help them by 2010?
They could just as easily draft a college outfielder who could help them in the near term as they could a middle infielder. In fact, its more likely – there are more outfielders who are likely to fall to the later parts of the draft than talented middle infielders.
Also, whether you like it or not – chances are its going to be Jeter’s call when he switches position. You may not like it – and some fans are going to hate it – but the Yankees as an organization are not going to force Jeter to a new position if he resists.
He’s the captain of the team and an icon. You might not value that stuff but the organization has never challenged jeter on stuff like that.
If they were willing to do so – they would have moved him from short already. Range is not his forte now.
Jeter is going to sign a new contract in 2010 with the yankees. It wouldn’t surprise me if we see him at short afterwards.
“I agree with CB on the OF front. I think that Jackson and Tabata look great, but we are lacking somwhat in the position.”
I still maintain that pretty much every other position is worse. I mean…can you even name an interesting position prospect above A ball in the entire Yankee system? Other than Juan Mirana, perhaps?
At least Jackson and perhaps Tabata will be in AA next year. Maybe Cervelli will, if he has a spring in line with his start last year and not his finish last year. Other than that…
Yes, Cano is good and young. But EVERY position player on the Yanks is aging. ARod is the youngest, I believe.
We actually have a logjam in the low minors with Romine, Montero and Weems. Add Cervelli being in AA and the catcher position suddenly doesn’t look so bad.
YanksRule,
Believe me, it’s really hard to offend me.
I’ve only been flammed once and it was a long, long time ago.
I’m glad I don’t have the stature of SJ44, Bobcat, & Miller. I’d hate for someone to say something nasty and people think it was me.
Mike R.
And it’s a good thing that Jose Molina is young. We’ve got him for 2 years?
He’s so funny, because he openly admitted that he had a bad impression of the Yankee club but was happy to find out that was wrong.
But then again, who wouldn’t want to hang with the Yankees. They’re like a bunch of rock stars. Although Johnny D. probably scares him with the naked pullups.
mel,
I’d hate for someone to say something nasty and people think it was me.
That’s why we need the long-discussed registration for this blog.
Hint, hint, Peter.
mel,
Jackson’s extra base hit percentage in hawaii (and in Tampa) was really striking. That’s a very good sign and a very good predictor for success in the majors.
Jackson may not be a 30 homer plus guy but he’ll drive the ball (if he makes contact enough at the major league level).
Unfortunately just Tabata’s extra base hit percentage is extremely low. He’s young so the power will hopefully come.
“Carmen Angelini IMO will be the next franchise SS”
He’s 18.
“Why is it if they draft an outfielder that player will have to start in A ball and won’t help them by 2010.”
Fine, he starts at A or AA, like the mythical infielder. I didn’t say he couldn’t help by 2010. But they already have two guys like that.
“But if they draft a middle infielder they could take a guy from college who could start at A or AA and help them by 2010?”
Possibly, and it’s a bigger need because they don’t have anyone of the caliber of Jackson or Tabata that’s looking to be in AA soon. Personally, I think that they need to address this need over the OF.
FYI, for those interested in further reading regarding compensatory draft picks and how the Elias Sports Bureau goes about calculating the player rankings, I’d like to suggest the following links (The Keith Law blog entry is probably the best of the bunch but requires ESPN Insider access)
Overview
http://www.mlb4u.com/wiki/inde.....raft_Picks
Statistics Used
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....-for-.html
Keith Law -Explaining Type A, B free agents
http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....=blogEntry
This has probably already been said, but the Yanks got one pick for Gordon. With that pick, they chose Joba Chamberlain.
“We actually have a logjam in the low minors with Romine, Montero and Weems. Add Cervelli being in AA and the catcher position suddenly doesn’t look so bad.”
Given Cervelli’s falloff in the second half, I think it’s premature to assume he’ll be in AA next year.
Listen, I’m not saying it’d be BAD to have another high-ceiling OFer in the system. I _am_ saying that if you look at almost ALL the other positions in the system, they’re even bigger holes than the OF, especially at AA and above.
I dont understand the fascination with prospects that people have. They always bring up Derek Jeter and Mo and Pettitte, but you have th realize that those are 3 guys out of literally hundreds drafted in the 80s and 90s. You cant assume all of your prized prospects will turn out they way those guys did. In fact you would be better off assuming that about 5% of those prized prospects will even turn out to be decent major leaguers. So everyone who loves the idea that we didnt trade Hughes for Johan needs to realize that we probably will be regretting this the same way we regret not trading Vazquez for Randy Johnson at the trade deadline in ’04. If we had Randy in 04, we dont lose the ALCS and probably dont overpay for Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright in the offseason as well.
“This has probably already been said, but the Yanks got one pick for Gordon. With that pick, they chose Joba Chamberlain.”
Um…this is sarcasm? In this very post, Pete talked about how they got TWO picks for Gordon and turned them into Kennedy and Joba.
I agree that there are bigger holes in the system than OF (2B for example).
I would be shocked if Cervelli isn’t starting in Trenton next year. Even with his fall off he had a line of .279/.387/.397.
“You cant assume all of your prized prospects will turn out they way those guys did. In fact you would be better off assuming that about 5% of those prized prospects will even turn out to be decent major leaguers.”
No, but the whole point is identifying those 5% and keeping them. Cash thinks Hughes is in the 5%. Why? Great stuff, great control, great makeup. This isn’t a kid who throws hard but needs polish – and might never get that polish. This is a kid who’s mentally tough, has great stuff, and has control of that stuff. That’s the kid you keep. And if you’re giving him up…you don’t give up much else. Certainly not when your competition is offering up a #5 starter with no control that might be a #3 someday and a CFer who costs 10 mil and can’t hit.
“I would be shocked if Cervelli isn’t starting in Trenton next year. Even with his fall off he had a line of .279/.387/.397.”
Ok. I think that it’ll depend on his performance in ST…if he hits, he shows it was just fatigue or something and moves up. If not…well, then maybe the hot streak was just an aberration and he’s not ready to move on.
I do like that plate discipline, though.
whozat
I agree with what you say about what the Red Sox are giving up. You might actually be overvaluing both of those guys because I dont think Lester is anything better than a #5. But the problem is that if the Twins are going to accept a package with that crap from the Red Sox, the Yankees cant allow prospects to keep them from blocking that deal. The Yankees absolutely cannot allow Johan to go to the Red Sox even if it means trading Hughes and others.
Everyone here knows how big of baseball nerds we all are right? I mean. We are like still more than 2 months away until pitchers and catchers report and Pete gets like a million gazillion posts on every one of his blog entries. I really think that the Yankees should give each and every one of us free tickets just for posting like this in the middle of December. Or maybe they should just give Pete a luxury box at the new Yankee stadium. They could just keep it stocked with Sam Adams Lite for him and he could treat different posters to games in the box over the course of the season….
Whaddya say Hank???
Mark McCray,
Exactly why are we here 2 months before pitchers and catchers report? Why aren’t we on NFL or NBA blogs? Cuz of the Power of the Pinstripes.
Like we need to discuss the Knicks.
“I think that it’ll depend on his performance in ST…if he hits, he shows it was just fatigue or something and moves up.”
This isn’t the way organizations make decisions on what level to send a prospect to.
In general they have a development plan that depends on the prospects performance the year before.
How you perform in spring training has nothing to do with whether you wind up in A vs. AA vs. AAA.
Nearly every source I know of related to the yankees minor league system believes Cerevelli is going to AA next season.
Many people think Cerevelli’s fall off with the bat was related to the physical stress of catching for a full season in the heat in Tampa.
He’s improved every year he’s been in the system. It would be very, very surprising if he wasn’t in Trenton.
“The Yankees absolutely cannot allow Johan to go to the Red Sox even if it means trading Hughes and others.”
See, that’s where I disagree. All that does is send the message that, yes, you can screw the Yankees over in trades. Just fake like the Red Sox made an offer – even a poor one – and they’ll panic and give you whatever you want.
The Yankees handled Beckett this season, they handled Matsuzaka, they handled Schilling. I’m not afraid of the Red Sox.
“This isn’t the way organizations make decisions on what level to send a prospect to.”
K.
“Many people think Cerevelli’s fall off with the bat was related to the physical stress of catching for a full season in the heat in Tampa.”
I guess I’d need him to show me something in order to be sure. Otherwise I’d start him in A+ ball and, if his hitting took off again, move him up right quick. But, whatever. Hopefully he’s adjusted to AA and is hitting well in Trenton by the end of the season.
Mel-
I mean I love it. You know what is really crazy Mel? I hadn’t even read a Blog until about a month ago. I live in Bowling Green, Ohio. No one here is a Yankees fan. They are all Indians fans (or at least they were this year—eww makes me want to puke thinking how annoying they were). So like the Blogosphere and being able to talk to Yankees fans year round is amazing to me.
*Well…Okay…I had never read a blog until like 2 months ago…didn’t even know what they were…
Mark McCray,
To me, after the football playoffs until the first week of April is the sports “dead zone”.
No other sport has off-season fan interest like baseball. I am already planning for a spring training trip, looking into maybe going to Yankee stadium this year, buying Yankee gear as Christmas presents for my family, posting on this blog, so yes I guess I am a baseball nerd.
Jeesh, I guess it could be worse, at least I don’t paint my body in team colors and yell at women to show their breasts, like Jets fans do.
Unless he gets hurt, its a lock Cervelli starts in Trenton this year. With the abundance of catchers at the Lower-A Levels, I don’t see how Cervelli stays in Tampa.
His is a very good defensive catcher. He’s not known for his bat and probably hit a bit higher than expected last year.
Defensively though, he is the real deal. Very, very good thrower and receiver.
Yanksrule-
Ah. I don’t even follow any other sport other than the MLB. Something about the Pac-Man Jones’ and the Mike Vick’s of the NFL and the extremely suspect “fixed aspect” of NBA that just doesn’t really excite me. I watch the games I can catch but other than that I could care less if the Celtics beat the Pistons. When the World Series is over (and this year I didn’t even watch it) I get extremely depressed. Up until the year it was always a terrible time because I didn’t even know about the Blogosphere so I relied on Yankees.com for all of my news (which is great and I really respect Bryan Hoch) but it is more public news than inside information. I don’t know why I didn’t know about Petes site? I looked all over the net for good Yankees information and couldn’t find it. But that has all changed now, and I have to say I am really excited I finally get to talk baseball all year long.
SJ, that sounds great – I love Posada, but I think defensive catchers can be a team’s best asset.
“Unless he gets hurt, its a lock Cervelli starts in Trenton this year. With the abundance of catchers at the Lower-A Levels, I don’t see how Cervelli stays in Tampa.”
Ok, ok:-)
Then the guy really doesn’t project as a starter, right? Or have I been so spoiled by Posada that my bar is set to high for MLB catchers?
whozat
The message has already been sent that you can screw the Yankees in trades many times over. All the way back in 96 when we traded with Brewers we got screwed by being forced to take a guy with a broken foot even though he failed a physical (Pat Listach). The D’backs demanded in 04 that we give them Vazquez (our best young starter at the time for Johnson when he would only have accepted a trade to NY) and then after the ALCS we were forced to concede to their demands. We had to give up our best pitching prospects in 03 (Brandon Claussen) just to get an average 3rd basemen (Aaron Boone). Every team will always demand the best from the Yankees because they really dont want to trade with us because it pisses off their fan bases to trade with the “Evil Empire.” Nothing is going to change that and it is the reality of the climate of baseball. It is high time Cashman realizes this and stops pretending he is a small time GM with a tiny payroll.
because
Its hard to say how he projects at this point in his development.
He’s a young guy, who has gotten better each year he has been in the organization.
At this stage, its all you can ask for.
He doesn’t have the power Jorge has and he probably isn’t going to develop it.
That does not mean he can’t become a very good ML catcher.
His defensive and throwing skills are already as good as some ML catchers. He just needs more experience.
AA will tell us a lot about his future.
If we sign Mahay, do we lose our pick that we get from Vizcaino?
“SJ, that sounds great – I love Posada, but I think defensive catchers can be a team’s best asset.”
It sounds great that the team’s most advanced catching prospect is sort of like Yadier Molina?
If that catching prospect ends up hitting a key homerun in the World Series like Yadier Molina did, then Heck Yeah!
“It is high time Cashman realizes this and stops pretending he is a small time GM with a tiny payroll.”
So…you’re saying it’s better to make bad deals than no deals? How is that a winning strategy?
And the fact that Claussen was the best the Yanks had to offer is an indictment of their system, not an indictment of other teams’ willingness to trade.
Look at the Abreu trade. Cash played that exactly right…he gave up nothing in exchange for taking on money, which the Yanks can afford. So…you’re wrong. Teams DON’T always hold the Yanks up for more players than other teams will offer.
And, if Cash and Hank draw a line in the sand, the teams that start to play ball will be able to make better deals than the greedy teams. The other GMs aren’t stupid. If they can get a worse deal but screw the Yankees…or get a better deal, they’ll start taking the better deal sooner or later.
“If that catching prospect ends up hitting a key homerun in the World Series like Yadier Molina did, then Heck Yeah!”
sarcasm?
Mark McCray,
I love all sports except for soccer. Heck I was even following that stupid fight on Saturday. Love my Lakers, Patriots, and #10 College team. However, this is the only blog I post on. It’s got a lot of character(s). And, by far, the most knowledgable and tolerant fans. Could dial down the negativity a bit, but now that it’s apparent that the Red Sox aren’t getting Santana in the near future some of it’s gone away.
BTW, I want to thank all the guys who follow the minor leaguers. You guys really know your stuff. I, and probably some of the other “gals”, really appreciate the fact that you share what you know. Thanks!
Not really. The point is is that defense and calling a game matters with catchers, right? The point is is that sometimes, it’s not the Jeters, A-rods, and Posadas that hit the walk-offs in important games. That’s the beauty of baseball. Everyone has something to offer.
Now would I rather have a Posada type over a Yadier/Nieves type. Heck yeah. But there aren’t many in the system, so if SJ44 says that Cervilli has something to offer then I’ll believe it until it’s proved otherwise.
Actually Cash didnt win that trade with Abreu, he got lucky. We desperately needed an outfielder who could hit in June of ’06 so we could keep the likes of Kevin Thompson and Kevin Reese from playing. Cash could have had Abreu earlier but he decided to wait and got lucky that the Red Sox collapsed and we were able to keep close enough to them to capitalize on their collapse. Dont confuse the results with the decision. The fact is we needed him earlier, Cash got him later but it didnt cost us.
And believe me, GM’s have no problem taking the worse deal rather than trading with the Yankees. Do you think Arizona regrets trading Schilling for Brandon Lyon and Casey Fossum when they could have had Wang and Cano? If they do regret it, you certainly dont hear about it because as long as they didnt give Schilling to the Yanks, they dont care. The only reason they traded Randy to us is that Randy demanded it and wouldnt go anywhere else. And they still wouldnt do the deal at the deadline in ’04 even with no leverage and when they finally did complete the trade they heisted us anyway.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t ignore the farm system for years, as the Yankees did, then expect immediate dividends.
Its taken 3 years for the Yankees to get to this point in their revamping of the system. Its now universally regarded by the industry as a Top 6 farm system.
If they keep it at that level each year, while spending wisely in the FA market, they will field a team capable of winning the World Series every year.
Fans need to exercise some patience. Not every prospect is going to be an all star.
However, that doesn’t mean you don’t put your resources into the system and build a, “strength in numbers” organization. That’s what the Yankees are doing. It gives them more options.
By having, “strength in numbers”, you will have more hits than misses with prospects.
They signed the best catcher, closer, starting pitcher, third baseman, and backup catcher on the free agent market this off-season.
Just because they are their own players, doesn’t minimize the signings. They also aren’t being “cheap”.
If its not good enough for some fans, they can go root for the Mets. Omar is really knock ‘em dead this off-season, isn’t he?
I just hope we dont have to hide our faces after 08 if hawkins is a disaster, and hughes record is 7-13….i really hope thats not the case.
By the way when I say dont confuse the results with the decision, I will give you an example of what I mean. If you choose to drive drunk and dont get in accident or get pulled over, do you believe it was the correct move to drive drunk just because you didnt get in any trouble? Of course not, the decision was still bad, you just got lucky. Same principle.
“So everyone who loves the idea that we didnt trade Hughes for Johan needs to realize that we probably will be regretting this the same way we regret not trading Vazquez for Randy Johnson at the trade deadline in ‘04.”
except no such thing ever took place.
actually, what almost happened was that Cano could have been traded for Johnson at the trade deadling in 2004.
luckily for the Yankees, they did not trade their prospect, who is now an All-Star.
thank you for proving the exact opposite of what you were trying to. well done.
“Actually Cash didnt win that trade with Abreu, he got lucky.”
Oh, right. Everything good that happens for Cash is luck, everything bad is because he stinks. I forgot.
“Do you think Arizona regrets trading Schilling for Brandon Lyon and Casey Fossum when they could have had Wang and Cano? If they do regret it, you certainly dont hear about it because as long as they didnt give Schilling to the Yanks, they dont care.”
Wow. You’re completely paranoid.
Its funny to me. Critics of Cashman always point out his “luck” when people talk about the good deals he has made.
Yet, when he makes a bad deal, which ALL GM’s have done, he is incompetent.
It isn’t luck when he makes good deals and it isn’t incompetence when he makes bad deals. Its the roller coaster life of a baseball GM. That’s all it is.
LOL- Pete set that High School Kid straight in the mailbag.
Go for the money and women, son.
“Nothing is going to change that and it is the reality of the climate of baseball. It is high time Cashman realizes this and stops pretending he is a small time GM with a tiny payroll.”
what on earth are you talking about?
I wonder if Bobcat is around to give us the Santana inside story now that the Winter Meetings are over?
“Actually Cash didnt win that trade with Abreu, he got lucky.”
This seems like a pretty typical statement from Yankee fans who think they are convinced they, from their arm chairs, are smarter than Cashman.
Cashman waited out the Phillies on Abreu when everone else in baseball thought the yankees would panic and overpay for what was essentially the Philies trying to dump a salary.
But he didn’t – and he got a great deal out of it.
To say he “should’ve” gotten him earlier is inane. They won the division that year making that terrific comeback to overtake the Sox.
How would getting Abreu earlier in 2006 helped exactly? They would have won the division by more games?
This kind of lack of patience is remarkable.
What is it with Cash’s affection for bullpen pitchers with flat fastballs?
I’ve watched Latroy Hawkins pitch over the years. He’s going to average about 5k’s per 9 ininngs and not walk very many. But just when you get comfortable watching him pitch, he’ll throw that flat fastball of his.
Hawkins is this year’s Scott Proctor. IMO, if money was an issue in the Santana deal the Yanks would be better off putting the $3mil they spent on Hawkins in a piggy bank
“Cash could have had Abreu earlier but he decided to wait and got lucky that the Red Sox collapsed and we were able to keep close enough to them to capitalize on their collapse. ”
yes, he decided to wait until the TRADE DEADLINE.
and Boston didn’t “collapse” until the Yankees won those 5 games at Fenway in which Abreu tore the cover off the ball.
doesn’t sound like “luck” at all.
~Adam.
December 10th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
LOL- Pete set that High School Kid straight in the mailbag.
Living/working on the road is tough. I know, I did it for a long time. The road killed Elvis.
“IMO, if money was an issue in the Santana deal the Yanks would be better off putting the $3mil they spent on Hawkins in a piggy bank”
I think it’s pretty clear that this year’s budget was NOT the issue in the Santana situation. Cash never wanted to part with Hughes.
When I say he got lucky, I mean he got lucky that we still won the division that year in spite of him waiting too long to trade for Abreu. There is no way he could have predicted the Red Sox would collpase and if you believe he was stiing there saying, the Red Sox will collapse we have time you are deluding yourself. Once Varitek got injured and Manny stopped playing they went downhill and we swept in the 5 game series and that was it. Nobody can honestly believe Cashman knew that was gonna happen back in June. As far as he knew, they had a huge lead, were unlikely to blow it and he still didnt get the job done until it was almost too late. The best deal Cash ever did was get Justice in 2000 because he took the bull by the horns and made a trade early and gave up guys to get the job done. And I dont think anybody is really regretting giving up Ricky Ledee and Jake Westbrook and whoever else we gave up.
And about being paranoid, I was just saying that if the D’backs regret doing that deal, we dont hear about it. I wish they did regret it because it would at least prove that teams are willing to take a fair offer from the Yanks but unfortunately there is no evidence to support that conclusion. And the main reason we didnt get Randy during the ’04 trade deadline is Arz was demanding Vazquez and we didnt want to give up one starter to get another. And Cash didnt get lucky that time because by the time the playoffs came around Javy wasnt even in the rotation and we desperately needed that one guy to shut down the Red Sox with a 3-0 lead. But I guess everyone is willing to notice when Cash gets lucky but ignore it when he doesnt.
“I think it’s pretty clear that this year’s budget was NOT the issue in the Santana situation.”
Though I know that’s the reason they noised around:-)
This isn’t true at all. The Red Sox were unwilling to take on Abreu’s contract. Theo Epstein basically read an epistle about how broke the Red Sox were.
Secondly the Sox’ collapse didn’t occur until after the Yankees delivered the 5 game knockout. The division was still very much up for grabs until the Yankees went in and took it.
“And the main reason we didnt get Randy during the ‘04 trade deadline is Arz was demanding Vazquez and we didnt want to give up one starter to get another.”
you made this up.
its always nice to get draft picks and all but what if hawkins isnt good? We need more relief pitching besides Hawkins (who hasnt been very good in a while) and albedejo (who is as proven as Bruney.) I feel we need to make another trade for some solid relief. We shuld trade matsui and whoever else the Giants want for Cain and then, trade Cain plus prospects for Johan Santana and some relief pitchers. Cain can be the cheap ace the twins want to replace santana so he shuld have almost as much value to the twins as Johan because of the money. Or just trade a team for a quality reliever.
Yeah, I think a defensive catcher can be a team’s best asset. Think about it for a minute – a defensive catcher can
1) keep runners from stealing bases
2) call a great game
3) manage a g-d cutoff system from the outfield (something jorge, as much as i love him, couldnt ever quite master – how many times has an outfielder thrown to second when they should have thrown home, etc?)
an offensive catcher is just another bat in a stacked lineup who, unless he is 2007 posada, will probably put up .270 and 20 homers – good numbers for a catcher, but mediocre numbers for a yankee batter. a defensive catcher, though, will save many more runs than he produces. he will help keep singles singles, help manage baserunners and make every pitcher work to his potential. i’ll take that any day.
So yeah, if there’s a homegrown catcher bopping around AA who has a great arm and knows how to manage the field, I’m happy. I think the Yankees need good defensive position players to come up a lot more than they need good offensive players to come up. I love Jorge Posada, and the guy can massage a pitching staff’s ego with the best of them; but sometimes, it’s ridiculously obvious that he’s a converted middle infielder.
Drive,
I’m thinking he probably feels Hawkins can give him a lot games in the first few months of the season as they break in the younger arms into bullpen roles.
I also think a one year deal, as opposed to the multi-year deals relievers have been getting played into it.
Let’s face it. Linebrink, Viz, Riske, and Hawkins are all pretty much the same kind of guy. Not stars, workmanlike guys, who you hope can get the job done from year to year.
Given that, he got the guy who would take the one year deal.
With the number of young arms in the organization, several of whom will be in the ‘pen (at some point) during the season, he probably didn’t want to commit more than one year to the same kind of guy (from a pitching perspective).
Its not a sexy signing. But, if the guy can give them some good outings, it can serve as a bridge until guys like Ohlendorf, Sanchez, Veras and Melancon can serve larger roles in the ‘pen.
I still think he has a couple of things on the table right now and is just waiting for some answers.
I don’t think Hawkins will be the only bullpen addition from now until ST.
“And about being paranoid, I was just saying that if the D’backs regret doing that deal, we dont hear about it.”
huh?
what does this even mean?
“We shuld trade matsui and whoever else the Giants want for Cain and then, trade Cain plus prospects for Johan Santana and some relief pitchers.”
can we wind up with Pujols too?
“Nobody can honestly believe Cashman knew that was gonna happen back in June. ”
But somehow you do know what was going to happen? So you somehow know that waiting until the trade deadline was the wrong move?
How do you know this? In what crystal ball?
By your argument, Cashman should have caved into whatever demand the Phillies initially made – even if it meant making a bad trade – rather than waiting for a trade that made sense?
This makes sense somehow? What’s the magic in making a bad trade?
That’s the kind of things fans would do – panic and do something stupid instead of waiting and giving up CJ Henry.
Using hindsight to criticize a bad move is weak enough. Using “hindsight” to criticize a move that was tremendously successful is bizarre.
ThatWasMe-
Lol, I thought the Coke killed Elvis.
And how could anyone say Cashman is a bad GM? The discussion about the Abreu deal is calssic. Should we have given the Phillies anyone in June ’06.
What sucks about a lot of Yankees fans, is that they take the fun out of the game. If I remember correctly, the Yanks wn the division that year by 10 games. If we would’ve got Abreu in June what would we have? Two less prospects and we win the division by 13 games? I think some Yankees fans don’t enjoy the midseason stress, and the rising blood pressure of maybe not winning the division. They won’t be happy until the Yanks go 162-0 and 11-0 in the playoffs. Even still, their margin of victory wouldn’t be good enough.
It’s baseball. It’s supposed to be fun.
Let me put it this way, If someone had cancer and needed chemo but they decided to wait before getting treatmentand then the cancer went into remission without the treatment would you consider that a good decision to go without treatment. And I know that it isnt a good example using life and death in comparison to baseball but I cant think of anything else off the top of my head right now. I will think of a better example later but for now try to look at the example without jumping down my throat about how baseball isnt life or death. Just take it on its merits.
“But I guess everyone is willing to notice when Cash gets lucky but ignore it when he doesnt.”
No, we’re willing to look at ALL his deals objectively. You call EVERY success luck and every failure stupidity, with the benefit of hindsight.
Vasquez was really good in the first half…you’re using the power of hindsight to criticize Cash for not trading a young starter who was pitching VERY well for a crusty old man.
Wow you are using hindsight to say his move worked out when I am saying that at the time the move wasnt made, it could have and very well should have cost us the division. The fact that the Red Sox didnt put away the division is purely luck and in no way was caused by Cashman’s delay. Just because it worked out does not make it the correct decision is all I am saying.
hmmm,
If you dont mind me asking,is your job in anyway related to baseball? It just seems you know more about the Yanks than the average guy here.
hmmmmm,
LOL!
Didn’t you know they stopped doing trades the real way, and instead they just log onto EA Sports Baseball ’08 and see if the video game thinks it’s a good deal!!?
LOL LOL LOL. The Yankees have been in the postseason EVERY YEAR since ’95. geesh. You’d think they were running their organization into the ground.
What makes Cashman great isn’t that he’s a good GM and makesusually smart deals. He’s the Yankees GM, and he understands how to be the Yankees GM and use every bit of financial power and influence he has.
” I think some Yankees fans don’t enjoy the midseason stress, and the rising blood pressure of maybe not winning the division. ”
please, they can’t even deal with the OFFSEASON stress.
people are flipping out b/c the bullpen isn’t 100% completed in December.
“1) keep runners from stealing bases”
Actually, at least half of that falls on the pitchers for failing to keep runners close. And big power guys (like many of the Yankee relievers, for example) take so long going to the plate that the catcher rarely has much of a chance to throw guys out.
Actually I am criticizing him for moves that both worked and didnt work. The Abreu deal worked and the Vazquez deal didnt work. But both concepts are the same and that is Cashman made the same mistake. He was cost by it with the Vazquez deal and was cost by it with the Abreu deal. If he made both deals and they didnt work, I wouldnt care because he would have made the correct decision and it just didnt work out. He would have gotten unlucky. You dont hear me criticizing him for making the Randy Johnson deal after the ’04 season. It was the correct move to make, he got the job done and it just didnt work out for us. He got unlucky that a pitcher coming off a near CY Young performance and perfect game 10 months earlier didnt put up the same numbers with us.
“Do you think Arizona regrets trading Schilling for Brandon Lyon and Casey Fossum when they could have had Wang and Cano?”
I guarantee you they regret not making a deal for Cano and Wang if that is what the Yankees were offering.
Sorry I meant to type that he wasnt cost by it with the Abreu deal.
“If you dont mind me asking,is your job in anyway related to baseball?”
unfortunately, it is not. i wish it was!
i am just an obsessive fan.
The Phillies were rumored to be initially asking for either Cano or Wang for Abreu.
Would that have been a smart trade? What kind of idiot would make that trade.
Team’s always make ridiculous demands and only pull off deals when they have to.
By waiting on the Abreu deal, Cashman also got them to throw in Corey Lidle.
Lidle played an important part of the yankees comeback.
Lidle was not in any permutation of the initial rumored deals.
They only got Lidle becuase of the leverage the trade deadline gave them.
The yankees knew the Phillies were desperate to dump salary and took advantage of that leverage instead of making a dumb, impatient trade as they would have in the past.
I disagree, whozat. Pitchers keep runners close to the extent that catchers call for a throw over. And, a catcher’s arm has a lot of sway over how tempting it is to try to steal in the first place. It’s true that huge windups don’t help – but I think pretty much everything besides the windup that keeps runners on goes back to the catcher.
“The fact that the Red Sox didnt put away the division is purely luck and in no way was caused by Cashman’s delay. ”
how was it “luck” when the Yankees went into Fenway for 5 games and cleaned their clocks?
Here’s what it comes down to:
Do you want the Viz at 3 years at over 12 million dollars?
Or, do you want Hawkins at one year, 3.75 million AND you get a sandwich pick for losing the Viz?
Hawkins and Viz are the same kind of pitcher. Workmanlike guys who have good and bad days. Veterans who do a good job taking care of themselves and can take the ball when the manager pushes them.
Cashman went the prudent route. Kind of hard to criticize the move, given the exploding market for middle relievers and the number of good, young arms the Yankees have in their organization.
“Wow you are using hindsight to say his move worked out when I am saying that at the time the move wasnt made, it could have and very well should have cost us the division.”
You really think that having the almighty Jason Varitek to CALL PITCHES would have made the difference in the division? His hitting certainly wasn’t helping the team. Manny giving up didn’t happen until they were already losing the division.
The point is that the Yankees AS CONSITUTED were keeping the division close enough. The arrival of Abreu at the deadline (for peanuts) put them over the top. If things had started looking worse, Cash could have made the deal earlier by giving up more. Things continued to be tolerable, so he decided he could afford to wait.
“Actually I am criticizing him for moves that both worked and didnt work. ”
So you’re basically criticizing him for everything irregardless of outcome?
That’s convenient.
Wow, great info on what the Gordon picks ended up turning into, Pete. I don’t really like the Hawkins signing, but he’s probably about as good a bet to be effective as Vizcaino. Keeping the commitment to a one-year contract and getting another draft pick in the deal is a good move. Maybe Cash is thinking that he can keep stockpiling high draft picks, and in a couple of years he’ll have enough good, young arms (we arguably do now) that he’ll be able to stick a few of them in the bullpen and fill the need internally. I like the plan.
Unless, of course, a pitcher is a lefty with a wicked pickoff move (like Andy). That also has nothing to do with the catcher. Overall, though, a catcher is far more important defensively than offensively.
You do realize that either way it makes absolutely no sense, right?
I dont think Arizona really cared much that we were the Yankees. More that George was the owner of the Yanks. If im not mistaken that was at the same time that George stole Wells from the d-backs after he said he would sign with them. So it was more personal than anything.
A team isnt going to go public and say we should have traded this person for that person anyways. I think that would be a little unprofessional and meaningless.
“Pitchers keep runners close to the extent that catchers call for a throw over.”
Not true. Pitchers keep runners close by varying their time between pitches, using the slide-step to vary his time to the plate, and sometimes throwing to 1B. The catcher doesn’t call every single one of those. Anything to prevent the runner from predicting when it’s a good time to run.
A catcher with a rep for having a good arm is a deterrent, sure. But what the pitcher actually does _in the game_ is a huge factor as well.
“Overall, though, a catcher is far more important defensively than offensively.”
That’s not true. If it was Victor Martinez wouldn’t have a job. There is, as always, a balance. Yes, a team can and will tolerate lesser offense from a catcher than they would from a 1B. But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t look to upgrade.
Lets review the lucky moves
1. signing David Wells
2. bringing Roger Clemens
3. signing El Duque
4. OH SNAP !!! Scott Brosius
(the way people talk about him you’d swear anyone who signed him get the golden treatment guess he was lucky)
5. Mike Mussina (damn 03′ w/o him)
6. David Justice
(a key part to beating the Seattle Mariners in the ALCS)
7. Aaron Boone or otherwise known to Boston as Aaron BLEEPIN’ Boone
8. Matsui !!! who could forget his line drive double vs Pedro Martinez
9. Robi Cano wouldn’t be here, neither would Melky, Joba, Hughes, Kennedy …all would be somewhere else because Oppenheimer would have been on another team if Cashman wasn’t around
10. 2 Championships w/ his luck
DAMN HOW LUCKY
Like I said, the pitcher also plays a role. But you can’t seriously say that having a good catcher who sort of hits in the system is somehow worse than having a good hitter who sort of catches in the system. Especially the Yankees system, given its scads of hitting. And if you can seriously say that, I’d like to hear your reasoning.
nah I still he getting lucky, a rabbits foot must be in his coat pocket
Of course if there’s a better option (in my opinion, a better option would be another equally as good defensive catcher who hits better) the Yankees should try to upgrade. But that’s getting away from my original point, which was that if the Yankees end up choosing between a catcher with great defense and a catcher with great offense, I think they should go with the defense.
The balance of bullpen arms will shake out from within the organization during the month of March under the watchful eyes of Joe Girardi, Dave Eiland, and Nardi Contreras.
Brian Cashman will need to provide the lefthanders from outside the organization.
How they’re used factors in as large.
Raymagnetic
LOL Yeah I guess it really doesnt so let me apply this to a situation that hasnt occurred yet. In my opinion, if we let a deal for Johan get away because of Hughes it will be a huge mistake. Now if we win the World Series next year because Hughes is a CY Young candidate, I still believe the decision was a mistake because Johan gives the team a better chance to win then Hughes. So now I am using front sight. If the Red Sox get Santan for nothing more than what they have offered then again it is still a mistake and more so a critical error the likes of which havent been seen in a long time. Still using front sight. And if neither team gets Johan, and we dont win the World Series it is still a mistake even if we sign in FA next year without giving anyone up. Because once again, using front sight, you cant assume that we will bid the highest for him or that he will even want to leave Minnesota if they happen to do well this year. The fact is, the old saying is a bird in hand is worth two in the bush” Well, we had Johan in hand with a trade including Hughes. Right now, again using front sight, Johan is a better shot to be the better pitcher for the next 6 years either way. If Hughes turns out to better fine, but you cannot just assume that to be true.
“If it was Victor Martinez wouldn’t have a job.”
Well, he’d have a different job
“But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t look to upgrade.”
From a Yadier Molina to a Jorge Posada, if available.
rb15, that’s why P.J. Pilittere is up he is and can be all of that
“Well, we had Johan in hand with a trade including Hughes.”
really? b/c Hughes was actually on the table for 4 days without Minnesota accepting.
i don’t remember Minnesota ever agreeing to anything.
I think Brian Cashman has done an overall good job with the Yankees. I find it amusing that any criticism here of Cash is almost like heresy to some.
Obviously Cashman has done a fabulous job bringing back the farm system. But the perception around baseball is that he is overly protective of his prospects. He certainly has the courage of his convictions.
He’s made some nice trades for high salaried players like ARod and Abreu. But he hasn’t completed many mid level trades that have worked in the Yankees favor.
It’s a fair question to look at the composition of the ’08 roster and question the logjams in left field, first base and DH. After all, Cashman did acquire these players.
It’s not even Spring Training and a lot can/will change, but right now the $200mil Yankees are lacking a bonifide ace starter, a qualified first baseman and have no answers for a bullpen that was atrocious in ’07.
Now if we win the World Series next year because Hughes is a CY Young candidate, I still believe the decision was a mistake because Johan gives the team a better chance to win then Hughes…it is still a mistake even if we sign in FA next year without giving anyone up. Because once again, using front sight, you cant assume that we will bid the highest for him or that he will even want to leave Minnesota if they happen to do well this year.
Wow…I dont agree at all with this.
If Hughes wins the Cy Young and the yankees Win the world series AND if they sign him as Free agent without having to give up the Cy Young Winner/candidate it is still a bad move????
Really?
No, i dont think so, at all
Anyone hear anything on Mahay? If we sign him…hopefully we don’t….we give up a pick…..I’d just as soon as keep the extra pick for Viz and pass on Big Ron.
maybe they can revisit Farnsy for Franklin Morales whil Angel Reyes tries to improve his control
Steve, what if the Yankees got Santana and then didn’t win squat? Would that be a mistake?
I see what you’re saying – Santana is a known quantity, and in sticking with Hughes the NYY are taking a risk in keeping him (balanced out by their not having to trade players).
How can Johan be better than Hughes in the next 6 years if Hughes wins the Cy Young this year? Its not like hes going to ever pass Santana in age.
Wouldnt winning the C.Y. mean your the best in the game?
Sorry i mean Cy Young candidate.
“Now if we win the World Series next year because Hughes is a CY Young candidate, I still believe the decision was a mistake because Johan gives the team a better chance to win then Hughes.”
This is just astonishing.
What this basically means is that regardless of what actually happens in the real world I [steve] am right.
Isn’t that just being stubborn?
rb
No it wouldnt be a mistake and for this reason. You are never guaranteed anything at all. The best a GM can do is give his team the best shot to win. I believe the best shot we have to win is get Johan even if it means giving up Hughes. If we dont win, I wont be happy but at least I will have the knowledge the GM gave us the best chance we have to win. If you believe past performance predicts future performance you have to believe that Johan will be a better pitcher than Hughes next year. And if you recognize that pitching prospects fail a huge percentage of the time, you have to believe that Hughes not only isnt a guarantee to better than Johan the next 5 years, he isnt even a guarantee to be better than say someone like Jeff Suppan. If you want to take your chances on the hope that Hughes will be special, fine but I will take my chances on the percentages which in every conceivable fashion favor Johan.
“But you can’t seriously say that having a good catcher who sort of hits in the system is somehow worse than having a good hitter who sort of catches in the system.”
It all depends on what the tradeoff is. Is Posada a hitter who sort of catches? I’d say no
He’s a hitter who catches adequately. And he’s gotten a bit better the last two years. I’d rather have that than a catcher who hits adequately, is my point.
Any word on CJ Henry – the former first rounder, traded to Philly, released, then signed back by the Yankees?
Also, is there anywhere to get film of all these pitching prospects – Melancon, Robertson, etc? I’d be curious…
I remember watching Joba’s draft video, and he was topping out at 92-93 and didn’t look very sound mechanically — I couldn’t believe they took him so early with that kind of stuff, but I guess that was a product of his being out of shape/injured.
SJ’s point about 1 yr. vs. 3 yr. for a reliever makes a sad point, too. Which is that, with the exception of good setup guys and closers, relievers are basically disposable. Sad, but true.
The perception is SOME baseball circles is that he is overly protective of his prospects. That’s not a universally shared opinion.
In fact, the only people in the game really complaining about it are the people who can’t pry Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy, Jackson, etc., away from him.
Nobody is saying Cashman hasn’t made mistakes. He has. His hits far outweigh his misses.
Its not just “luck” when things work out.
The problem with the Santana deal is, the Yankees weren’t going to offer up two top prospects for him.
It seems to me, the Yankees (Hank and Cashman in particular) assessed the Santana market correctly since, nobody else has offered the Twins a deal including 2 top prospects.
As far as the bullpen, no question he has had misses. That goes to show you how difficult it is to build bullpens.
He has done it the FA way in the past. Spending lots of money on guys who, for various reasons, had mixed success in NY.
Now, he is trying it a different way with a mix of homegrown and prudent signings. Will it work? Time will tell.
One thing we have learned though is, just spending money on the percieved “good” signings, hasn’t been a great solution in the past.
I have no problem with him trying to find success a different way.
Again to go back to my analogy, do you think if you dont get in a wreck while driving drunk, it was the smart decision to drive drunk. Or is it astonishing to believe that regardless of consequences (or in the real world as you put it), some decisions are mistakes?
“Anyone hear anything on Mahay? If we sign him…hopefully we don’t….we give up a pick”
He’s a Type A? If he’s not, you don’t give up anything. The other team gets awarded a sandwich pick, which are created from nothing.
What Steve is doing that makes his logic weird, is that he’s assuming that Santana will win all the time. He doesn’t allow for a situation where Santana joining a team turns out to be a bad thing (like if Santana becomes a NYY, the Yankees lose all their young guys and then nothing comes of it). Meanwhile, he allows for Hughes to either be good (which is still not As Good as Santana, since you took a risk) or bad (which is not As Good as Santana, since Santana is always good in Steve’s model).
Steve, you need to think about what happens if Santana’s bad – in that situation, if Phil Hughes is good somewhere else, then obviously, the Yankees made a mistake. But if Hughes is bad on the Yankees, then at least the Yankees kept their players.
“whil Angel Reyes tries to improve his control”
Brandon,
Man, that’s going to be a long time to wait. How bad was he this year?
45 walks in 44 innings pitched!
Let’s keep working on that Farnsy for Morales trade (if only…)!
Let me use a different analogy that doesnt involve life or death. If you are playing blackjack and you have a 19 and the dealer has an 8 showing, and you take another card, get a 2 and win the money, do you believe that was still a smart decision? In my opinion, even if you win the money, it was still the wrong decision.
“If you want to take your chances on the hope that Hughes will be special”
Can I take my chances on the hope that Hughes, Kennedy and Melky will be worth more to the Yankees over the next six years than one year of Johan + the right to negotiate a HUGE contract with him?
Mahay is a Type B player. Not a Type A. The yanks would give up no picks of their own.
LoDuca to the Nats. So glad we have Posada and Molina. It basically makes all the catcher comparisons here today a moot point.
RB
Actually my logic is based on what we know RIGHT NOW. Even if Santana is bad, it would still be the right move. And the reason is RIGHT NOW, Santana gives you the best percentage to win. His arm may fall off the day after we trade for him but I wouldnt criticize the move because the best you can do is give your team the highest percentage chance to win and the highest percentage chance is to go out and get the generally agreed upon best pitcher in baseball.
he’s hopeful this will be his breakout baseball season because of his improved eyesight. Late last season he finally went to the eye doctor, something he said his mother had been asking him to do for weeks, and the doctor gave him contacts to try.
“The last month of the season I started seeing the ball a whole lot better,” he said. “It was like night and day. Before I would see the ball coming, but I couldn’t see the laces, the spin of the ball. With the contacts I could see the spin. I was picking it up a whole lot better. Everything seemed more natural.”
Maybe that’s why he hit .333 (17-for-51) in 16 games in August, easily his best month of the year. In his eyes, he’s going to carry that over to next season, when he will be playing either the outfield or second base for Class-A Tampa, back in the organization he feels is his baseball home.
Henry said, “I really didn’t want to go in the first place.”
whozat
Sure you can, because right now I would wager that Santana and his 200 million dollar contract will still be worth more than Hughes, Melky and Kennedy. I cant predict the future, I can only go on what we know about the past performance of Johan and the uncertainty of prospects.
“Again to go back to my analogy, do you think if you dont get in a wreck while driving drunk, it was the smart decision to drive drunk.”
Here is the main problem with your analogy. You are saying if you have something bad (cancer, driving drunk) and you do x (dont take chemo, drive drunk) and Y doesnt happen (you die, you hit somebody) it still doesnt mean that x wasnt a bad decision. True, I agree.
But Philip Hughes isnt something bad, its not Matt DeSalvo. its somebody who has proven to be good. So, your analogy is flawed.
Again to go back to my analogy, do you think if you dont get in a wreck while driving drunk, it was the smart decision to drive drunk. Or is it astonishing to believe that regardless of consequences (or in the real world as you put it), some decisions are mistakes?
That’s not a good analogy, though, Steve. When you drive drunk, there’s absolutely no upside. Your options are either 1) drive drunk which is always bad; or 2) drive sober which is always good.
Keeping Phil Hughes has an upside. It’s not as much a sure thing as getting Santana, but it could pay off much more in the long run. Your options are 1) keep Phil Hughes which might be amazing, might be bad; or 2) get Santana, which will probably be good but will cost you at the outset.
Why are we arguing? Having Santana would’ve been great. Many fans and more than half the front office thought that having Hughes would be great, too.
Now unless Hank knocks Cashman over the head with one of his father’s World Series trophies and makes the deal himself, Hughes is here to stay.
Yes, there can be something to be said about a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but Cash is gambling that the two in the bush will be great. Not necessarily better than Santana, but great.
Only time will tell, but I hope that the naysayers won’t jump all over Hughes when he stumbles, as he inevitably will. He’ll need time to become great as Johan Santana did before him.
Santana would cost approximately 50x more than Santana. Per year.
Thanks Brandon — great information!
“In my opinion, even if you win the money, it was still the wrong decision.”
it was a gamble. Every move GMs make is a gamble. Your problem is that you’re inaccurately portraying the gambles that were made.
In the Abreu trade, you’re making it sound like the Yankees were 14 games back and falling fast, and that Cash was sitting around farting on himself. That’s not what the situation was.
With Johan, you’re acting like the team is awesome, except they need Johan to make them the prohibitive favorites next year. Cash realizes that’s not true, and believes that the pieces he’s being asked to give up and the pieces he can acquire with his additional payroll flexibility, will be worth more wins than Johan. And he’s probably right.
“Let me use a different analogy that doesnt involve life or death.”
Your string of analogies aren’t that complicated – they’re not hard to understand.
In fact its not a very original argument – you’re basically saying that decisions should be evaluated on the process that led to them not their final result, because the result is unpredictable.
But you make absurd assumptions regarding the process. For instance, without even knowing what Pat Gillick initially asked for for Abreu you assume Cashman was wrong in waiting to make a trade?
But you have no idea what the initial trade demand was? So how can you possibly have any insight into the process?
Would you have traded Cano or Wang for Abreu? Those were the rumors for what Gillick was asking for.
Teams always do that – they ask for the moon and only come down to earth right at the trade deadline.
They do that in the hopes that someone will panic and make a stupid decision.
Luckilly cashman didn’t. It’s that simple. The Abreu example is an awful one.
**Santana would cost approximately 50x more than Hughes. Per year.**
Another way to put it is, after last season, I agreed with the Red Sox getting Beckett even though he wasnt that good to begin with. They gave up a batting champion and a guy who threw a no hitter but they couldnt have predicted those guys would be that good. Nobody can accurately predict prospects. Therefore, they chose to evaluate an already proven major league pitcher who was still young enough to be in his prime to give them a better percentage chance to win than prospects who have little guarantee of panning out. And the worst part is that Beckett didnt even have half the track record Johan has right now.
well put, mel – I agree with you completely. I’ll take the risk.
“I cant predict the future, I can only go on what we know about the past performance of Johan and the uncertainty of prospects.”
If these weren’t two pitching prospects that have already cracked the Majors AND who have always shown exemplary control, maybe you’d be right. But they have, and that makes them pretty projectable. Will they have growing pains? Sure. But even if they turn into a #2 and a #4, they’ll still be worth more wins over the next six years than one #1. And then add Melky’s wins to that.
CB
Thank you for understanding my analogy. However, you dont know any more than I know what the original offers were for Abreu. I am saying all things beings equal and not knowing what was offered, I would have rather traded for him earlier than later. If they wanted a proven major league talent than the context changes. I really dont see how Philly went from wanting Cano and Wang to taking garbage. I think it is more likley that if they asked for Cano and Wang it was because Cashman wanted them to pay for Abreu’s contract, which if true, is the big mistake by Cashman. I think he didnt want to take on the money so they wanted quality in return. I believe had he offered to take on Abreu’s entire contract in June, the Phillies would have taken a similar offer, again not the exact offer but definitely not giving up any major leaguers and we would have Abreu earlier giving us a better shot to make the playoffs.
Wow! Miss almost a whole day, try to catch up and it’s basically the same conversation. Those who know Cashman is a very good GM vs. those who think Cashman is a hack who sometimes gets lucky. I guess you can figure on which side of the argument I fall.
Anyway, I’m kinda burnt out. Between decorating the house for the holidays and baking & decorating Christmas cookies, I am just … done.
BUT — I am cracking up thinking about a commercial I saw last night, or partial commercial, for a product called “Nutty Buddy” and the “Mongo” size! Anyone else see it?????
You can now go back to the previous discussion.
“I agreed with the Red Sox getting Beckett even though he wasnt that good to begin with. They gave up a batting champion and a guy who threw a no hitter but they couldnt have predicted those guys would be that good”
The Becket comparison with the Santana deal is a bad one not only because you can’t compare Beckett to Santana.
Hanely Ramirez in the minor leagues was nowhere even close to being as good a prospect as either Hughes or Kennedy. He was considered a physically talented prospect who had not put up the type of results his talent suggested.
At his highest he was ranked as Baseball America’s 30th best prospect. Sanchez never cracked the top 100.
Hughes was considered at his highest #4. Kennedy this year will be a top 25 type player.
whozat, i agree – they aren’t prospects. The Red Sox traded prospects. That’s an easy trade. The Johan trade is harder because Huhges isn’t an unknown – he’s not a sure thing like Johan is, but he’s younger, cheaper, and who knows? Maybe better. Plus, you really don’t know how a pitcher will perform in New York. That pitching mound is like the Bermuda triangle for pitchers that were stars somewhere else.
“Therefore, they chose to evaluate an already proven major league pitcher who was still young enough to be in his prime”
Actually, a proven MLB pitcher who was still young enough to not even be eligible for free agency, so they had control over him for several years and could sign him to a reasonable deal.
If this was Santana four years ago, that would be a reasonable comparison.
Also…people DID predict Ramirez would be this good.
“Also…people DID predict Ramirez would be this good.”
At least, that’s what I was hearing up here in New England where I live.
Ha – yes Doreen, you haven’t missed anything. I feel like we’ll be having this exact same conversation every day until February, also.
whozat
You are saying “even if they turn into a #2 and a #4″ like that is the worst they can be. Sorry, but the worst they can be is out of baseball or sent back to the minors. I wonder what you thought of Randy Keisler, Alex Graman, Brandon Claussen, Sean Henn, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo and the numerous other prospects who had major league experience. Your problem is overvaluing our prospects. We have so many young pitchers, how many do you think will pan out? Hell we already got lucky that Wang is as good as he is. Does anyone think that Kennedy, Hughes and Joba are all just going to be magnificent? If that happens it will truly be an upset. Very few times do teams get that many pitchers to be successful at the same time. And if they do, they dont all stay successfull for a long period of time together.
rb15 –
I like that: “The Bermuda triangle” for pitchers who were stars elsewhere. For the last few years, that certainly does seem to ring true. And as good as Santana is, I, for one, couldn’t help briefly thinking that once he got to The Stadium, it would all change. But I actually thought he’d do fine. And if the Yankees can figure out a way to get him without breaking up the Three Musketeers (or whatever we’ve decided to call the kids), it would be awesome.
whozat, i agree again – people were distraught when the Sox traded Hanley for Beckett. Especially when Beckett didnt quite… pan out the way he was supposed to his first year here in Boston.
They also thought, back in April, that Alex Cora should be the everyday second baseman and that Pedroia should play left bench. FWIW.
rb15 – I think from now on, if I can’t come on board earlier in the day, or check in more frequently, I’ll just jump to the bottom and start from there.
whozat
Those people you heard were Peter Gammons and disciples who predict every Red Sox prospect will be the second coming of Ted Williams and Pedro Martinez.
“Thank you for understanding my analogy. However, you dont know any more than I know what the original offers were for Abreu.”
Steve,
For whatever reason you made it out that the way you were thinking about this was somehow very complicated and no one was understanding your thinking.
It wasn’t really very complicated.
And you’re right – I fully admit I have no insight into the nature of the process either.
And if that’s the case all you can do is go by the outcome because your insight into a very private process is extraordinarily limited.
To start making assumptions about it – like Cashman should’ve traded him earlier – when you have no clue what the initial deal was is ridiculous.
Why do you think so many deals get made just before the trade deadline (in fact why do you think they even have a trade deadline?) – the deadline makes teams quit posturing.
The phillies were going nowhere that year. Of course they would probably just keep asking for the moon until they were forced to come to the point where they had to make the best available deal or pay abreu.
Your argument doesn’t consider the most important part of negotiating – leverage.
Cashman made the deal when he – not the phillies – had leverage.
That’s the rational way to negotiate. Not make deals because your panicked over what the competition is doing.
“Randy Keisler, Alex Graman, Brandon Claussen, Sean Henn, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo”
None of these were so highly regarded as Phil Hughes…You realize that not all prospect fall into the same category.
Yes, Doreen, and I will have my fingers crossed that Cash will figure something out. But I agree with him that the Santana trade that was on the ropes just wasn’t worth it at the time – he’d probably be good, but we’d give up too much in return. I think there’s a lot to be said for Yankee pitchers who “grow up” as Yankees and can handle New York. It’s like they’re acclimated better, and they can just deal with all the attendant junk that goes on when you’re a Yankee.
“I wonder what you thought of Randy Keisler, Alex Graman, Brandon Claussen, Sean Henn, Tyler Clippard, Matt DeSalvo and the numerous other prospects who had major league experience.”
You’re problem is that you’re assuming all prospects are created equal. How many of those guys had great stuff but no control? How many have middling stuff?
I understand that Hughes is more projectable and has higher potential than ALL of those guys. I’m sorry that you don’t understand that.
I remember watching an Eastern League game in ’87. It was the Vermont Reds vs Pittsfield Mets. The Reds pitcher was their 22 year old fireballing first round pick. I thought the kid was just about the fastest pitcher I’d ever seen pitching a minor league game.
3 years later he went 9-3 in the 1st half and was named starting pitcher for the National League in the All Star Game. He cooled down and finished the season 12-9, went 7 -13 5.48 the following year and blew out his rotator cuff a year after that.
The kid’s name is Jack Armstrong. My point is that great prospects can turn into great disappointments in a hurry. It’s a gamble, but when you have the chance to trade for a future Hall of Fame pitcher still in his 20′s, sometime you have to roll the dice.
I know I’ve said this before, but I saw Hanley Ramirez play vs. Trenton a couple of years (the season before the trade) ago. He was clearly major-league ready. It was his play, his style of play, the way he carried himself, everything about him. Neither my husband nor I had never seen him before. We were impressed and looked him up in the program. I think that kind of super-talent is noticeable even to the most casual of fans. I certainly don’t consider myself to be any kind of connoisseur of talent by any means. Ramirez had “it.”
When Beckett had that unimpressive first season with the Sox, while Hanley Ramirez was busy winning the Rookie of the Year, it was a thing of beauty for a Yankee fan. Especially since, weren’t the Red Sox having SS problems, too?
I think there’s a lot to be said for Yankee pitchers who “grow up†as Yankees and can handle New York. It’s like they’re acclimated better, and they can just deal with all the attendant junk that goes on when you’re a Yankee.
_____
rb15 -
I absolutely agree with you
You guys think that someone from Santana’s camp comes here to reads what’s said about him? Of course after they wade through all the Cashmoney vs. Cashcrap stuff.
PS – wow everyone, this is great! I second whoever talked about this earlier – it’s so nice to be able to talk Yankees baseball all winter. My fiance thinks I’m obsessed to the point where I’m being creepy (which is possible, when I think about it), my family doesn’t care after October, and all my friends up here in the frozen north are Sox fans. I think I’ve found my tribe!
You are right not all prospects are created equal and that is why Johan was a rule 5 pick who was traded. Brien Taylor was a number 1 pick and look were he ended up. All prospects are created equal until they succeed or fail.
“It’s a gamble, but when you have the chance to trade for a future Hall of Fame pitcher still in his 20’s, sometime you have to roll the dice.”
Yeah…if that’s what’ll put you over the top, and if you’re not being asked to give up more than any other team in the negotiations.
Since neither of those is the case…
doreen,
Youre right. The trade wasnt looking so good the first year. Hanley was tearing up the NL and Anibel Sanchez, the other player the Red sox gave up, pitched a no hitter. Meanwhile, Beckett pitched to a 5.11 ERa and Boston missed the playoffs.
The Red Sox would love to have Hanley back. But we have (and hate) to admit Beckett and Lowell were the best pitcher and best player on a world Series championship.
“You are right not all prospects are created equal and that is why Johan was a rule 5 pick who was traded. ”
Um…actually, he wasn’t traded, he was selected and the Twins were bad enough that they could afford to keep him in the bullpen all year because it didn’t matter. That’s the only reason he was unprotected, his team thought no one could afford to keep someone so un-ready on the MLB roster all season.
As for Taylor…you’re an idiot if you don’t see how different the two scenarios are.
welcome to the land of obsessed baseball fans rb15!
Steve,
Your main problem is that you’re assuming that you and Cash have an equivilant knowledge base. This just isn’t the case. This is his job, it’s what he does. He has the infrastructure of a billion dollar company designed to assist him in this. You have ESPN and the internet. Maybe you know someone/talked to a scout. I am going to trust Cashs talent assessment over yours every single day of the week. Maybe there’ something going on with Santana, which could be why no other team in all of baseball is offering the prospects necessary to get him. Maybe there’s something good about Hughes, good enough that most teams in baseball seem to want him.
The fact remains, you can criticize him all you want, and claim that his good moves have been luck and his bad ones his fault, but perhaps maybe, just maybe, the GM of the New York Yankees has access to information that Johnny Sacko off the street doesn’t.
Maybe there’ something going on with Santana, which could be why no other team in all of baseball is offering the prospects necessary to get him.
Yes there is. It is called the 150 Mil contract.
People who say Hughes is more projectable are just trying to sound smart. There about 15 million real and amateur scouts out there who think every person they see is the next big thing. I prefer to evaluate performance. The only basis we have for predicting Hughes is what little he did last year with the Yanks. We cant even accurately predict that because he was hurt at some point and was coming back from injury. I am not saying whether that helps or hurts how good he will be but we cant predict anything based on a few games at the major league level. Find me one player that every single scout said would be great and then turned out great. Maybe Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey, sure fire Hall of Famers. Hell even Keith Law a paid prospect evaluator says he doesnt like Hughes that much.
Will -
LOL!!!!!
Steve, the problem with the argument you’re using is that it doesn’t allow itself to be proven wrong no matter what happens.
Because of that, your argument goes back to being nothing more than a statement of opinion, specifically “I believe Johan >> Hughes”. Yours is a classic example of circular reasoning.
Now it may very well be that Johan is worth the trading of Hughes given what we know right now. And if that is true, than it is also true that no matter what happens in the future, the right move right now would be to trade Hughes.
But you can’t use your reasoning to argue that.
“You have ESPN and the internet.”
Will,
That was a great comment. It’s amazing how many people truly feel they have more insight into baseball and talent evaluation than a successful professional who does this for a living.
The yankees are worth $1.3 billion. Most of the personal Steinbrenner family wealthy is tied into the team.
They are entrusting Cashman with handling their family fortune.
Not only did George love Cashman – so does Hank. Hank wants to sign Cashman to an extension – and Cash said not right now. It’s too busy getting the roster together.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
Steve,
What’s your point?
Steve, just to be clear, I was referring to your posts about cancer and blackjack, not your latest about Keith Law, etc.
“Hell even Keith Law a paid prospect evaluator says he doesnt like Hughes that much.”
He’s a member of the media. His job is to get attention. Saying “the Yankees are idiots…this kid looks like a bum to me!” gets attention. Has he been scouting Phil? Or did he watch Phil’s starts in August and call him a bum?
I’m probably older than most folks here and I’ve seen a LOT of prospects fade into oblivion (can anyone else remember Ross Moschito?..I hope not! lol ).Some had promise, like a Jerry Kenney or a Gerald Williams.But like most, they didnt make the grade.
Only time will tell if the Yankees would have had to ” give up more than any other team in the negotiations”.
Yeah Brien Taylor should be in the front of your minds when you think anything can happen. He gets messed up in a bar fight and nothing is ever the same again. Anything can happen or is Phil Hughes Superman and nothing will ever happen to him.
any news on the masui front?Talks r that they r trying to center the trade around Sanchez.Hopefully we get something else in the trade that will be beneficial for us in the future.
I never said I was a better evaluator or that I knew more than Cashman. I actually base my criticism of him based on what his peers do like Epstain and Billy Beane. And they are not afraid to trade prospects to get a difference maker.
LOL first you say that Phil Hughes is better rated than some of the other prospects I mentioned and then when I mention a talent evaluator who doesnt rate him that high, you respond by calling that guy “an idiot.” So just because he disagrees with you, he is an idiot. By that logic, then I can say everyone who rated Hughes so high is an idiot because they disagree with me.
Mark, haven’t heard anything…hopefully it can be centered around Sanchez and Lowry, I would rather Cain or Lincecum, but that won’t happen.
“Yeah Brien Taylor should be in the front of your minds when you think anything can happen. ”
So, because one prospect was an idiot we have to act like ALL prospects might be idiots?
Hey…is Santana superman? Why couldn’t he get into a bar fight, or a car accident? How is that any less likely with Santana than Hughes?
“So just because he disagrees with you, he is an idiot. By that logic, then I can say everyone who rated Hughes so high is an idiot because they disagree with me.”
What are you talking about? Where did I call Law an idiot? I called him a member of the media whose job it is to generate attention.
Farnsy for Morales…I can’t believe Dan O’Dowd didn’t jump all over that one.
whozat,
Because Carlos Santana does not drink..he smokes pot!
“By that logic, then I can say everyone who rated Hughes so high is an idiot because they disagree with me.”
But that’s been your whole argument since the beginning.
Anyone who disagrees with how I see things is just wrong because they don’t have the same insight into the process through which decisions are made. Doesn’t matter whether its the Abreu deal or the Santana one. Doesn’t matter whether its Cashman or some one else on this board.
I have a unimpeachable insight into the processes through which baseball transactions get done. Doesn’t matter how things turn out – I, Steve, know what the best thing to do before hand always is.
Steve,
Keith Law is not an idiot, but he may be in the minority as far as his opinion of Hughes. Bill James loves Hughes. Many scouts in the MLB system are high on Hughes.
But our opinions here don’t really matter, so we shouldn’t get worked up about it. I’ll apologize to you on behalf of the rest here. We just feel it necessary to protect our young. We’re maternal in that way.
Steve
December 10th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
The fact is, the old saying is a bird in hand is worth two in the bushâ€
______________________________________________________
If you honestly believe this saying, I can only say that you’re putting your bird in the wrong bush.
“and Billy Beane. And they are not afraid to trade prospects to get a difference maker.”
Yeah, all those World Series that Beane has won REALLY make him a standout.
whozat
My apologies, I misread your post where you said Keith Law was trying to generate media attenton by calling the Yankees idiots. Anyway, either way, by that logic the same can be said of all the people who think highly of Hughes. They are trying to generate attention to themselves by calling a Yankee prospect great. Just because someone disagrees with your point of view does not devalue their opinion nor does it make your claim of his reason for not believing in Hughes’s greatness correct.
Few things:
Cervelli gets better every yead and though he doesn’t have Jorge’s power, he does take his walks! and will hit a lot of doubles. He’ll start at AA, as will Jackson and Tabata.
Since Cash got more power in 2005, the Yanks have created a state of the art minor league system. It has a chance to be historically significant. You may not notice it, but not only have the Yanks poured big money into the draft and IFA, but Cash has fired and replaced a bunch of people involved in the scouting and player development sides.
Cash is also a tremendously patient guy who understands leverage. That’s how the Abreu deal got done and it had nothing to do with luck.
Steve
December 10th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Yeah Brien Taylor should be in the front of your minds when you think anything can happen. He gets messed up in a bar fight and nothing is ever the same again. Anything can happen or is Phil Hughes Superman and nothing will ever happen to him.
____________________________________________________
Just to clear something up, here. Brien Taylor was not involved in a bar fight. His brother was. Brien’s brother got in a fight in a bar and was jumped by 4 guys. He went home and Brien went to these guys trailer. After some words, and the Taylors were getting ready to leave, one guy got behind Brien and they went down in a pile, with the guy landing on Brien’s shoulder. He wasn’t in a bar.
If we’re playing poker, count me as all in if the Twins & Hank want to trade Phil, Melky, Marquez & Hilligos.
Somehow, I think Hank is gonna charge me $9 for my Pillsner Urquell if the payroll is $220mil or $150mil.
People keep bringing up the Brien Taylor thing – what does that have to do with being a prospect (other than being young and making decisions young people do)
Are people going to blame Joel Zumaya for being young and having unfulfilled potential if his shoulder doesn’t heal well?
He shouldn’t have helped his aging Dad move the family belongings during the california fires this fall?
All athletes have a lot of risk associated with them. Younger ones do have more but its not just exclusive to prospects.
I’m going to take a stab at it….
1. Damon LF
2. Jeter SS
3. Abreu RF
4. Rodriguez 3B
5. Cano 2B
6. Posada C
7. Matsui DH
8. Cabrera CF
9. Betemit 1B
Now, J. Brent Cox is a different story.
I don’t know a whole lot about the Yankee farm system, with the exception of that which gets the attention of major media organizations.
Can someone tell me the top two or so guys to look out for on the single A level next year? The reason I ask is because my dad lives in Tampa and he likes to know if there is a player that he can keep an eye on, one that has a decent shot at making some noise on the major league level in the next couple of years.
Thanks.
Al,
Where does Giambi and his $22mil salary fit in?
SJ,
You take Hawkins & the BLT all day everyday over the Viz. Too many people don’t understand that relievers are a dime a dozen. They’re like a WR in a fantasy draft. Once you get away from the handful of sure things, you can close your eyes and pick one from the middle of the pack. They’re very unpredictable. One year they stink, the next they’re unhittable. The Hawkins signing was the best out of the relief bunch, because there is no committment for similar ability & production.
Hey guys
My hand hurts so much from four hours of essay exams. I have a blister on my finger.
Rebecca,
I can just imagine how your brain must be hurting too!
from ESPN: Rumor Central
Matsui to San Francisco?
Hideki Matsui | Yankees | Interested: Giants?
The Giants and Yankees still have a long ways to go before they could finish off a trade that would send Hideki Matsui to the Giants, but the teams continue to talk, ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark reports.
The two sides appear to be building momentum toward a deal, according to baseball officials who have been in touch with both clubs.
One source said the Giants “really want to do this” if the teams can settle on the players. The Yankees have rejected an offer of Matsui for starter Noah Lowry. But they’ve targeted pitcher Jonathan Sanchez. And one baseball man with knowledge of the discussions said the teams would like to “build the deal around Sanchez and go from there.”
The Giants, meanwhile, have swatted away all efforts by the Yankees to obtain Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain.
It still isn’t known if Matsui would waive his full no-trade clause to accept a trade to the Giants.
Can I ask, what is so good about Sanchez, I seem to like Lowry better, Sanchez doesn’t look appealing to me, what has he done in the majors that I should Like?
Curious,
There’ll be several good players at Tampa next year. It’s still early so its hard to know who’ll be at Charleston (low A) vs. Tampa (high A).
The two best Yankee prospects who have a shot at playing in Tampa at some point next year are two pitchers – Zach McCallister and Dellin Betances.
They’ll both start in Charleston and will probably stay there for the year. But its possible they could get promoted – McCallister in partiucular. If your dad could see either he should.
Others who could play for Tampa – Brad Suttle (3rd base), Damon Sublett (2nd), Justin Synder (utility), Bradean Pruitt, and Mitch Hilligoss (position may change 3rd/2nd?).
Trading Hughes and Hilligoss is a mistake. Hilligoss is going to be a special kind of hitter. He will either be a Boggs type if left to hit the way he does, or, with a little tweak, a Mattingly type. Either way, he has 25-30+ steal speed. He’s playing third now, but was a SS-2nd baseman. I think his real spot is 1st base, though. He’ll most likely play 2nd in Tampa this year, though, but, NYY has some outstanding middle infielders coming up and at least 2 really good third basemen in Pruitt, Suttles and Laird. Shortstop is covered, though Snyder will be more of a Randy Velarde type Super U guy. All with good leather and good bats. Outfield has Jackson, Tabata, but, also has Colin Curtis, but, also has Seth Fortenberry, a corner outfield-center fielder with power and speed. Outstanding glove and a really good arm, especially for left or center. Strikeouts are his problem. Tim Battle may be as good as any of them with speed to burn, good power, but strikeouts are ugly. His setback was probably caused by his battle with cancer, so his development has been retarded. He’s only 21, though.
Drive: oh man.
bphill,
Let’s hope the Yanks hold out for a LOT more than Sanchez. He’ll get crushed in the AL.
bphill,
I don’t understand the Sanchez issue. He’s big and throws hard but has awful control. WHIP of 1.6 with a BB/9 of around 5.
The only way to explain this if its true (which I don’t think it necessarily is) is that the yankees are concerned about their lack of left handed pitching and think sanchez can help them this year.
But I’d guess Sanchez is just the starting point for a deal. Matsui is much to productive to just trade.
I don’t see the yankees just giving him away. Also, I don’t see matsui just waving his no trade clause to play for a team as bad as the giants.
But we’ll see. I personally don’t want sanchez at all.
The yanks do not want Noah Lowry, that is for sure. If the Yanks gave Hideki Matsui, Alan Horne, and a midlevel player, like a Jeff Marquez, would that INTEREST the Giants to start making their end of the deal to include Tim Lincecum? INTEREST not deal but begin a framework.
Rebecca,
Call Beckett. He’s had blisters issues before.
mel: Haha! Got a phone number?!
I havent seen Hilligoss play,but with all due respect to GreenBeret7, Hilligoss has to improve a lot if you look at his numbers. For a guy with little power, it’s not a good sign when he only walked 35 times but struck out 65 times. His future seems more like a middle infielder than a 3rd baseman.
Mark,
That sounds like a lot. 2 good pitching prospects + Godzilla for a rookie pitcher?
Get Flam to ask Joba. I hear they’re BFF.
If it’s Matsui to the Giants, without one of the young outfielders or a Hughes or Kennedy, they’re not getting Cain or Linecum, nor, Wilson. If they can interest the Mets in Mussina, Sanchez and Lowrey for Gomez and Pelfrey, they maybe can build a package for Santana, but, that’s the only way I’d do that trade. Lowrey would get chewed up in the AL East, in particular.
Does anyone know what the deal is with Pavano and the Yanks collecting insurance money?
Joba & Beckett that is.
mel:
I hereby dub thee Comedist Prime.
Drive, have you ever looked at Mattingly’s numbers in the Minors? His highest homer total was 10, and his 1st year in the majors had 4 in half a season. Piniella worked on his swing and taught him to pull the ball. Hilligoss has that same type of swing. Right now he’s strictly a gap hitter. Mattingly was no walk machine, either.
Mel,
I know it sounds a lot, but this guy has the potential to become a future ace. We would be able to dump an outfielder we will not need, Alan Horne has had injury issues with his Tommy John Surgery occurring and other health issues like an A.J. Burnett. Tim Lincecum has a body for injury problems, but none have occurred that should strike as a problem.
Hilligos needs to walk more. I think Mattingly was higher than low A at his age, too, and had a couple of positione he could really handle, while they are still trying to find one Hilligos can really do okay at.
I wouldn’t like Santana, I would rather have Lincecum or Cain, personally Cain, I think he would work better in the AL, any package for Cain imagine this in 4 years the Yankees Rotation, all under 28 years old,
Matt Cain, Phil Hughes,Ian Kennedy, Joba Chamberlain.
NASTYY
GreenBeret,
I’m sure you’re right and Hilligoss has some talent. You dont hit in as many games as he did by mistake.
Not so sure about the Mattingly comparison though. Even as a minor leaguer Donnie knew the strike zone. He walked almost twice as many times as he struck out. He also was an rbi machine even in the minors. He drove in 105 in only 133 games his second year.
Rebecca,
Director of R-E-L-I-E-F.
any other opinions on my comments on the giant trade?
*trade speculation i mean between matsui goin to the Giants.
*I mean the trade rumors of Matsui goin to the Giants
Rebecca,
I hope that your blisters won’t affect your ability to blog.
Mark,
If the giants are dumb enough to actually trade lincecum or cain (which I don’t think brian sabaen is) then I would beat my head against the wall with packages to get either.
If it took matsui and kennedy I would do it. I would trade both for Lincecum.
He has dominant stuff and is still learning to pitch rather than throw but what he has can’t be taught.
I’d love to dream about it but I don’t see it happenning.
I don’t want them to get Sanchez. The giants also don’t have much talent in the minors, especially in the upper minors.
If I had to trade Kenneyd, Hughes, Joba, Melky, Jackson I would not do it. If it took Matsui and Tabata for Cain or Lincecum. I would
Hilligoss’ walks will come up. Don’y forget, this was his first full year of pro ball. He spent 3 years at Purdue. Actually, his numbers paralell Mattingly pretty well. Boggs also compares to both at that time frame. I love this kid’s swing. He’s that impressive. He’s sort of misplaced as a 3rd baseman, but, he does have a good arm. He’d make a better than average third baseman, though.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....goss.shtml
http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....ngly.shtml
http://www.thebaseballcube.com.....oggs.shtml
mel: Don’t say director of relief to someone with digestive issues….
And nope, the blisters shall not keep me from the blog. Unless you would have it that way.
I said give INTEREST for forming a framework. Not that be the deal. Be INTERESTED, that might lean towards making a deal that may include more players. Being INTERESTED.
Rebecca:
Oh, yeah. The meat thing. Forgot about that…
If Matsui gets traded to anyone, it better be FOR some good talent (as opposed to just WITH some good talent) and it better be for someone better than just a semi-established #4 pitcher or just one good rookie pitcher.
I can’t believe some folks thing he’s garbage but should be the center of a trade with Melky & Horne (or whomever) for just Tim Lincecum. Or that NY should settle for Lowrey in return.
Try Matsui and a pitching prospect (NOT including the 3 kids, or Melky) for Lincecum and an OF prospect that has a shot at starting by the time our prospect could start for them. If not Lincecum but Cain, then downgrade our prospect or upgrade theirs.
If the Giants say they need Godzilla it’s because he’d be a good player for them to acquire. That costs something, like a player and a prospect for a player and a prospect. Not an OFs who’s an established, still productive starter, AND a top OF prospect AND a very good rookie pitching prospect for one very good but still green 2nd year pitcher.
Lincecum has a lot of promise but he’s not Johan freakin’ Santana. In Santana’s case, the ‘established’, ‘arguably the best in the game right now’ and ‘sure thing’ elements were what brought Hughes or Kennedy and Horne to the table. Although he’s very good, Lincecum doesn’t offer those three qualities any more than Hughes or Kennedy. So NY shouldn’t be adding a bat like Matsui’s to the Santana-type offers just to get another unproven (albeit very good) young arm.
Whoever the Giants end up getting is going to replace Barry Bonds – not as HR king, but as a better all-around OF who has some power, can knock in runs, can hit for a good average, can play decent defense and will help them win again. That’s what they’ve lacked for the past several years while Bonds has been swinging for the fences.
Again, that costs something.
agreed ranting, I would rather Cain since he has a lesser chance of getting injured, however if the Yankees deal for Sanchez and Lowry, I will be very dissapoinsted, I know nothing about them and see Lowry being a 5th starter maybe even in the bullpen. No room.
LOVE Cain. Lincecum not so much. But that’s based on this past year.
Would be sad to see Godzilla go, but perhaps he’s open to a trade (according to reports) because of the decrease in PT. Still, the NL? With the knee issue? Hard to picture.
You know who needs a DH? Minnesota. Jason Kubel (who?) was their DH.
Minnesota took nobody, but lost six (6!) players in the Rule 5 Draft. Four (4!) of the six were RH pitchers (RH!).
Matsui + some RH pitchers not named Hughes or Kennedy=Santana
Do it Cashman!
The knee issue was an issue until Matsui got it ‘scoped. I’m no doctor but it’s not as big a deal as something like a Tommy John or rotator cuff operation is to a pitcher, or an ACL repair to any other athlete.
If it was just some loose cartlidge (sp?) that had to be scooped out, then in 4 months it’ll be like there was nothing wrong in the first place. That’s all I’ve heard it is for Matsui’s knee. If it was something like an ACL he wouldn’t have been able to DH last year, much less return next year. That was Aaron Boone’s injury not Matsui’s.
David Ortiz just had one of his knees scoped for loose/torn cartlidge too, and does anyone doubt he’ll be mashing the ball again by April?
Mel,
That is an interesting idea. The only problem with that is Matsui’s skills have deteriorated especially because of his knee. Another problem is that, the Minnesota Owner is a greedy person who does not want take money out of his pocket to keep or sign players. That is why Joe Nathan is leaving next year and soon will be Morneau and others.
As I mentioned yesterday, trading Matsui to the Giants does make a lot of sense. Matsui will not yield either Cain or Lincecum in a trade – SF needs starting pitchers badly and those two represent the “cream of the crop’ in their Organization.
Trading Matsui means (a) leaving the DH slot to a regressing Jason Giambi and an unproven Shelley Duncan (against lefties) (b) leaves the 4th outfield spot open to filling.
Giambi was an OBP machine in his prime but age and injuries make him a big gamble to be as productive as Matsui has been.
I guess this would only make sense if the Yankees were thinking about a good free agent option like Fukudome.
People have a tendency to underrate Matsui’s offensive contributions over the past 5 years ( Averaging .295 BA, .371 OBP., 25 HRs 100 RBIs) He is a very good fit in that Yankee lineup for a few more years.
Soory, thats: “trading Matsui to the Giants does NOT make a lot of sense.”
Latham Joe,
I love Matsui. I wouldn’t want to trade him AND I thought he’d be dead set against it because being a Yankee’s a big deal to him. But he hasn’t shut the door to the possibility so I’m just fooling around. But that 4/6 players taken in the draft just made my eyes get as big as saucers. Don’t we have some really attractive RHP?
I still can’t see Matsui in the NL. But the turf would kill his knees. Let me get this straight. Minnesota’s getting a new stadium, but it’s open air? With grass?
Anyone knows what happens to the Yankee grass in the winter? I live in a place that has one, maybe two seasons so I was just curious.
Dunno if anyone here’s caught this yet, but Chad Jennings at SWB Yankees reports that the Yanks have signed a reliever named Dan Giese. He can go three innings, Jennings writes, tasted the major leagues last year, and is a great guy. Split contract with big league camp invite.
Doing my own research, I’ve found that he’s a 30-year-old righty. Great.
turf in *Minnesota*
Is Lincecum the next Roy Oswalt, or with his 170 lb. 5’11″ frame and whiplike motion of his left pitching arm, the next lightweight to damage his shoulder/elbow? I’ll take Cain. What would it take to get him besides Matsui?
MarkK,
Unless Moose is open to being a long reliever (HA!) finding a long reliever would be a good idea with so many kiddies.
If anyone’s had a little torn cartlidge in a knee you can understand how it slows a guy down like it did Matsui. Your knee feels very unstable, and can crack or pop a lot as it bends. Very uncomfortable. You can walk with it, sometimes with a limp or sometimes without, but try running down fly balls with that feeling in mind. You’re right Mark, that’s primarily what Matsui’s skills deteriorated from.
The operation to fix it is simple, and a few months later you can run normally again. Matsui won’t suddenly become A-Rod at the plate, but he should be basically the same guy he was before the wrist injury. He’s just 1 1/2 years older, not totally washed up like he’s being made out to be.
One turf stadium in the NL (Florida)…AL has 3 (Tampa, Toronto, Minnesota)
Here’s the link:
http://emedia.thetimes-tribune.....nkees.aspx
GB7,
Thanks for the info. I phrased it wrong. I can’t see Matsui going to the NL because of age, no DH, knee issues, etc. Minnesota needs a DH (IMO), but the turf wouldn’t be too good for him. Anyway, I don’t want to trade him. I just blended up all the thoughts and it came out funny.
How come there has been talk of trying to acquire Huston Street? He may have injury issues, but that would be a great addition to the bullpen if the price for him is fair. He is young and when healthy has been effective.
MarkK, thanks for that update. with this news of the Yankees signing Giese, i think that this puts the Matsui deal on hold. The Yankees have improved their bullpen adding hawkins and giese now, I don’t know how good giese is however, I can’t picture the Yankees trading Matsui for Sanchez and others if pitchers like Hawkins, Giese, and others from the minors (DeSalvo,Henn,Beam,Horne,Wright), that is a LOT of people for a bullpen. The Yankees i think now will only settle for a deal involving Lincecum or cain.
You cant criticize cash in this blog so dont bother. Soo many people are too obsessed with him they are mentally incapable of looking at the facts objectively. Some believe he basically created the yankee farm system so he isnt too blame for pavano, wright, brown, johnson, Farnsworth, Moose’s extension, Igawa and the ten or so other horrible acquisions one can throw in. And hmm, i dont think trading Matsui, money and prospects for Cain and then, trading cain for Johan is so unbelievable. The twins want an ace to replace Johan who will be cheap and the giants want a big hitter to bat third in their lineup – you pay for matsui and throw in a prospect and they trade cain instead of lowry maybe.
Yankee trader,
I think Lincecum is the next Oswalt, they have the same herky-jerky motion and I like Cain, bigger frame, and bigger upside. Less chance of injury.
*there has not been talk made a mistake.
No problem, Mel. I’m really hoping he stay, too. His bat will come in handy on April 15th, 2008, when Giambi hits the DL for the first of 4 times. It would be helpful for him to learn firstr base. He’s agile enough and at 6’3″-6′-4″, he’d make a good target. He’s athletic and he could do it. Would be nice if Mattingly was still around to tutor him, but, Joe Pepitone will be in spring training, and, there were few better than Pepi.
Giese is a lifetime 30 yo minor league righthanded pitcher in the Giants organization. Bullpen needs a situational lefty, and other than Henn and Igawa, they have no others ready to step in, and Igawa hopefully get’s traded.
I really wonder why Cash is looking into the Matsui trade, since this is not the Marlins and the Yanks never look to save money. Hopefully the Yanks can fleece the Giants and trade Matsui plus a prospect for Cain. But that is only dreaming…If they do trade him then they better get back equal value and I would ask for a lot, none of this Lowry bull. The only thing that would make sense to me and I hope happens is by saving the $13 that money would go to cover Santana’s contract. Only a couple of reasons make sense..for Santana, for some good relievers, they really think he is breaking down and he is the only player that they can get something good for or they were never serious about it and it was over blown.
If it is to save money so they can trade for Santana then good I am all for it. If it is just to get back some relievers then they have to remember that Giambi is never healthy and they are going to open up the DH spot for someone that will probably play 3 times a week.
Dave, why don’t you rag on somebody that’s really a problem..someone like Cano. Rumor has it that he drinks more than his share of Poweraide during a game. Talk about selfish. That’s something that you could spend at least 3 weeks complaining about.
I would happily give up matsui, duncan, and horne for lincecum and sanchez.
thoughts?
Matsui’s knee will be fine. I would prefer to keep him but I agree if G-man is healthy there is no room at DH and Damon even with his poor arm is a better option in LF.
The Giants know that Lowry alone will not get the deal done. That sounds like a classic opening bid. The Yanks know that 1. Lowry would be a disaster in the AL. 2. The Giants are desperate for offense.
While I don’t think the Giants will give up Lincecum or Cain, there might be someone else the Yanks have scouted they like.
Any thoughts on trying to get Huston Street for the bullpen.He may not be healthy all the time but when he can play, he s great.I would want Street if the price is fair.
Matsui would sell a lot of tickets in San Fran so he’s more valuable than his numbers would indicate.
“And hmm, i dont think trading Matsui, money and prospects for Cain and then, trading cain for Johan is so unbelievable.”
yeah, except that person said we’d get Johan AND “relief pitchers” from the Twins.
“I would want Street if the price is fair.”
why would the price be fair?
CB,
What about July’s international signings? There were some high-ceiling outfield prospects in that group if I remember correctly.
“I would happily give up matsui, duncan, and horne for lincecum and sanchez.
thoughts?”
sure, who wouldn’t? oh, probably the Giants.
“Some believe he basically created the yankee farm system so he isnt too blame for pavano, wright, brown, johnson, Farnsworth, Moose’s extension, Igawa and the ten or so other horrible acquisions one can throw in.”
i have an awesome idea: how about you go back in time to 2 months ago and then post this exact same sentence in every single thread up until today?
oh wait, you already did that.
hmmm – you are cracking me up!
Greenberet – Im not complaining about what cash drinks – i just dont think he makes the best decisions.
hmmm, if we traded cain and prospects, we prolly could get Johan and a relief pitcher. I didnt say joe nathan or anything. And u acted like it was a ridiculous comment by saying yea lets get pujols too. And Im sorry if i repeat what i say but no one seems to think cash ever does anything wrong. Those acquisitions should be constant reminders. And Ive said plenty other things – people only like to yell and scream when i bad mouth cashman. And people always say the same junk back to me about how cash invented the yankees farm system.
Vizcaino would not be a loss even if the draft picks weren’t included. Granted, he did pitch many innings in the beginning of the season, however, he proved ineffective in many a tough spot. Case in point: Game 2, ALDS.
What a shock!
The last post about Vizcaino I read was Pete waxing poetic about how, “nobody beats the Viz”.
Now that he’s no long a Yankee, it’s no big deal. LMAO
Congrats on LaTroy, he’s the black version of Farnsworthless.
Dave, do you, or, more correctly, can you read? I didn’t say Cashman. According to you, Cashman only makes bad decisions. Any decision that you don’t like is bad.
I still would rather deal for Cain than lincecum, cain didn’t have an amazing season last year, however I would rather have him over lincecum, injury prone.
I didnt say I think every decision cash made is bad. I just think he has made alot of bad decision and many people hold him in very high regard completing ignoring alot of the facts. And u were saying i should rag on someone else like cano right? Your comment didnt make a whole lot of sense to me – mayb i didnt understand what you were saying.
Dave,
Well apparently Hank thinks he makes good decisions so good thing for Cashman you are not his boss.
honestly it’s very easy to snipe at calls made in the heat of a pennant race. Cashman is essentially a COO of a billion dollar business (for which he is grossly underpaid IMO). More information is coming at him on a daily basis than most people can possibly imaging. His daily work routine is like playing a high level chess game while simultaneously making phone deals and sending text messages to his department heads. Add to this the uncertainty of player performance and evaluation, the limitations imposed by the board re budget (in this case self imposed luxury tax limits), and your competition is constantly changing and improving. It is an exteremely dynamic process and yes some decisions will turn out better than others but overall I would rather have Cashman as GM than almost anyone in the game.
I agree bphill – id prefer cain over lincecum as well. His record wasnt good but he still had very good numbers otherwise – and record means nothing on a team that has an anemic offense.
Dave, Lincecum did have more strikeouts, however I can see Lincecum crumbling in NY, Cain has poise that I like and just reminds me of a young white C.C. Sabathia or John Lackey. Large power pitchers.
Thas true of any GM – And cash has the luxury of a 200 plus million dollar budget. And the ability to make horrific acquisitions with them having little impact on the entire teams performance. Im sorry but on a low budget team i think people would realize that cash isnt a great decision-maker. Hank hasnt been the yanks duel-owner for very long. And cash;s off-season this yr hasnt been bad, it hasnt been great but he kept the players we needed. I dont think cash is horrible. I just think he gets far too much credit and ppl completely overlook his flaws.
Pete…kudos on the title of this thread….way to think “glass half full” buddy !
NYPD113th-
is that the best you can do?
“hmmm, if we traded cain and prospects, we prolly could get Johan and a relief pitcher. I didnt say joe nathan or anything. And u acted like it was a ridiculous comment by saying yea lets get pujols too”
well, when you just say “and prospects” it IS a ridiculous comment. what prospects?
and which prospects did we send with Matsui to get Cain?
you sit here all day criticizing Cashman, and here is your big plan:
trade Matsui and “prospects” for Santana and “relief pitchers”.
someone email cashman, problem solved.
Quick! Who’s the Latin version and Japanese version of Farnsworth?
:rolls:
Signing a marked-down retread like Hawkins is a crap move and Cashman’s new-found frugality is more about stroking his ego (and polishing up his image for his next employer) than it is about winning the ’08 crown.
What’s the point of having the most money in the sport if we’re gonna let cowtowns like Tampa, Chi and KC outbid us for what we need most?
We should have blown away the best offers for 2 of Riske, Percival, or Linebrink, and we should pay whatever it takes to bring in Mahay. And if all three are horrible, it’ll still be cheaper than the Igawa signing. Or the Pavano signing. Or the Kevin Brown move.
Bottom line, our current bullpen is worse than the one we had pre-Joba and reliable relievers are one of the hardest commodities to get in a trade. You want to tell me that Cash has more up his sleeve?
We’ll see.
Armando Benitez is the Japanese version.
Torpor,
The yankees did well in the inernational signing period – they got Kevin DeLeon an outfielder considered by many to be the best player available.
That said, its hard to make much out of the international signings right now – those kids they sign are 16 and 17 (De Leon was 16).
So most of them, even in they make it, are 6-7 years away.
They have stocked up a lot of position player talent over the past three years that will be appearing this season for the Gulf Coast League / Staten Island short season minor league teams.
They are just a long way away.
Wheres DeLeon from?
De Leon is from the Dominican Republic. Was highly sought after.
He’s not on google yet, only a California Congressman also named Kevin DeLeon
So Steve wrote that you can only judge Hughes off of his rookie year in the majors. A rookie year that was massively affected by injuries. This is just plain wrong. You can judge him by how he completely dominated the minors at every level. By his high K rates. By his amazing potential. And I’ll add that not all baseball decisions are about 1 year. Its about building a consistent powerhouse. I am so sick of the shortsighted thinking spewed by so many fans.
GB7 – I’m glad you were here to teach people a little bit about Mitch Hilligoss. The kid seems destined to be special. I see it too.
Dave – Cashman ahs made bad moves. I doubt anyone on this board or anywhere would disagree, but the fact of the matter is that every GM makes mistakes. You can’t focus solely on that when you evaluate him. You have to take into account the direction he is taking the team in. Cashman is obviously geared toward making the Yankees younger, investing in the draft and international scouting and lowering payroll. These are ideas most of us here agree with. You have every right to differ, but you should do so pointing out the areas of his philosophy you disagree with and why rather than calling for his head for a bonehead mistake.(or something along those lines)
Steve also used tons of analogies in explaining his out of this world theories, so unless you can do the same we can’t take you seriously David. JK
Randyhater
Wow I completely agree with you. I was on here earlier today talking about Cashman’s poor decision making and I didnt even bring up the fact that he treats being the GM of the Yankees like being a penny pincher. Occasionally he will open the pocketbook (Arod, Posada, Mariano) but he wont blow other teams out of the water for free agents and we miss out on a lot of guys that might help. Hell, if he wanted to sign guys to 1 year deals he could offer them 10 million a piece for 1 year and also make it miserable for every other team trying to get better. Since we have the money and other teams take the luxury tax from our spending we ought to set the market high enough to even out the money we are “donating” to help beat us.
LOL
I get mentioned right as I get back. Great timing guys.
And instead of “out of this world theories”, I prefer invaluable but I will accept ingenius.
We heard you coming through the front door.
RosterRooster December 10th, 2007 at 10:17 pm
He’s not on google yet, only a California Congressman also named Kevin DeLeon
He is from Dominican Republic. He is a member of this year’s July 2nd signings. He has the honor of being paid the largest bonus of any player the Yankees signed this year. He projects to be a 5 tool corner OF. This of course has a huge margin for error due to his age (16) but Yankee officials seem very high on him.
Is anyone posting?
@randyhater
You are an idiot.
@Steve
You are a bigger idiot.
Thanks. That means a lot. Very mature, resorting to name calling.
Steve – Seeing as you disagree with me on Cashman you are also a poopy face. I’m sorry but it had to be said.
Mike R.
I am sorry but poopy face is just the last straw. I am going to tell Pete to get your IP address and send the lawyers after you.
Do what you have to do Steve. I stand by my words.
It’s funny how some people think “STFU” or “You are a moron” are valid arguments.
I agree with you David about the short sightedness of many fans. It seems to apply to alot of Yankee fans.
For what it’s worth. My father in law follows Puertorican Winter Ball religiously and believes the Albaladejo trade was very good for the Yankees. He is very high on the kid, but not so much on Jonathan Sanchez.
randyhater,
You sound like the return of the 1980′s King George — this is not a compliment.
The relivers you mention are not very good. Plus, they will all be way overpaid. Not only in money, but in years. This matters not because of budget, but because of the lack of flexibility such contracts bring. Wouldn’t you love to trade Giambi for some young prospects with upside? We might be able to do it if he wasn’t making $20 million a year.
Also, our luxury tax money goes to the other teams to help them compete with us. Finally, the top free agents would cost draft picks to sign. Allowing other teams to sign players like Tom Gordon is what led to us having the Holy Trinity (Joba, Hughes, Kennedy).
The Cash Man isn’t perfect, but he doesn’t overreact to New York pressure. Let’s at least wait til ST starts before panicking.