Pettitte: Yanks don’t need Santana
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Dec 12, 2007 
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Andy Pettitte was asked whether the Yankees needed to get Johan Santana. He gave an interesting answer:
“I guess there has been a lot of speculation that we need a true power arm, ace or whatever. I disagree with that,” he said. “I think Wang is an absolute stud. I think he is an ace. I understand he struggled in the postseason but that’s going to happen. I’ve struggled in the postseason before then come back and pitched extremely well. … To say we need (Santana) to be successful, that’s hard for me to say.”
Pettitte later said that pitching in 2009 at the new Stadium is something in the back of his mind.
UPDATE, 11:19 p.m.: Pettitte signed a one-year deal for $16 million, no option for 2009. He essentially took the same deal that was in the option.
Andy is my man.
2009? Oh man!
How could Andy be so wrong?!??!?! Everyone knows that SANTANA IS LEGEND!
what should he say, “my teammates aren’t good enough to win the WS”?
who would say that? besides posada of course.
j/k.
Andy rocks.
He said they don’t need him, not that Santana isn’t great. Utley is awesome but they don’t need him because Cano is around. Need versus want are very different here; Yanks don’t have a need.
I don’t blame Pettite for his support of Wang, but in the last part of the season and the playoffs Wang was very “unstud” like. In pitching against Beckett in September Beckett was dominant over Wang.
I would love to see how many times or hours a day some people spend on this site. There are a few member here that seem to monitor it by the minute. Very interesting to me. I know I check in plenty of times during the day but minutely (If such a word) is beyond comprehension during the off season lol.
Continuing this from last topic
Sign Cano now for long term (maybe 6-7 years) before his numbers go up it would be worth every penny
Wang on the other hand maybe give a shorter deal or wait a year
If the yankees do this it would make all the fans of Cano and Wangs fans in Taiwan show up more to games buy more signed stuff etc.
Cano is the next Jeter and Wang might be the next Rivera or something.
Maybe Cashman will get it right and when it’s Joba’s turn he’ll do the same
THAT’S RIGHT ANDY !!!
AND TELL THEM IF THEY ASK YOU AGAIN YOU SHOVE YOUR FOOT UP THIER A**
Well there is a reason why Andy is not a GM of a team if he thinks we dont need Santana. He probably thinks we can win if we bring back David Cone and Jimmy Key.
Based on Andy’s comments to the Houston paper and his comments on the call, it looks like an injury-free year for him in 2008 will lead him to return to pitch in the new stadium.
Based on the update, Cashman needs to send Pettitte to talk to Pavano and teach him a sense of commitment to what you sign.
What say we get through 2008 first and then worry about where Pettitte will be in 2009?
andy is great and wang is an ace just wait a year or two and we’ll all see it 38 wins in two years is the most for the past two years and 19 each if thats not ace product what is
Joe,
How did your “ace” work out for you in the playoffs last year?
Pete,
Now that it looks like Bruney will be tendered a contract, who, besides Pavano, do you think will be moved off of the 40 man? My guess is Beam and DeSalvo.
Also with Pettitte added now and Hawkins soon (then Arod) how much time do they for these moves?
Any word on what the roster move was in order to put Andy on the 40 man roster??
People seem to forget that the Yanks won 94 games with 10 Single and AA pitchers starting 40% of the games.
Wang’s postseason woes are no way to measure his value. Last season, he had to pitch out of turn which is a reason – not an excuse. His time to shine will come. Joe Girardi will use him right.
I believe that was Sardhina.
“How did your “ace†work out for you in the playoffs last year?”
Hey, how’s Santana’s record in the playoffs?
“Joe,
How did your “ace†work out for you in the playoffs last year?”
why are you trolling?
Yes, in his September start he wasn’t very good losing to Beckett while giving up 5 runs. However 2 weeks earlier on August 30th Wang pitched 7 innings and gave up no runs.
Your boy Beckett on August 29th. 12 hits 4 runs. But I would expect a Red Sox fan to always have a different slant on things.
There will be multi-player deals coming soon. 2 or 3 for 1 deals.
Sunny you are correct thanks I forgot that they had to make that move when he (Andy) agreed to arbitration last week!
GB7 your on the money on the 2 or 3 for 1 deals
raymagnetic
I make no claim that Beckett is perfect, but he one of the primary reasons why the Sox were winning the World Series this year while Wang, Jeter, and company were playing golf.
Seems everyone forgets Wang pitched a postseason win for us in 2006…our only postseason win, as it were…
I’m surprised that Pettitte would humiliate Posada like that by publicly contradicting what Posada said just a couple weeks ago. Posada said the Yanks need an ace. Pettitte just said F-you to Posada. Good for him.
Ray, The Red Sox have been playing golf in late September and early October for the better part of 90 years. Most of them should have their PGA cards by now.
Ray
How did your “ace†work out for you in the playoffs last year?
every ace has ups and downs thats baseball maybe he felt pressured next year he should be much better especially with all the young players on the team behind him
Ace doesn’t mean sure thing how did CC do in cleveland and he won the Cy Young
Wangs a Ace and getting better FACT
“I make no claim that Beckett is perfect, but he one of the primary reasons why the Sox were winning the World Series this year while Wang, Jeter, and company were playing golf.”
Ok. So was CC Sabathia and his inability to pitch in the post-season. So was a swarm of bugs.
So what?
Well I agree but I would like to see a trade for Cain or Lincecum
“raymagnetic
I make no claim that Beckett is perfect, but he one of the primary reasons why the Sox were winning the World Series this year while Wang, Jeter, and company were playing golf.”
But how did Wang pitch in the playoffs in 05 and 06? Secondly why aren’t you out getting drunk with the rest of your Red Sox compatriots? Why are you here worried about the Yankees? Inferiority complex?
“I’m surprised that Pettitte would humiliate Posada like that by publicly contradicting what Posada said just a couple weeks ago. Posada said the Yanks need an ace.”
Well, Posada also thought Andy was retiring.
I’m pretty sure that their relationship is close enough that it can withstand this “blow”
Your boy Beckett on August 29th. 12 hits 4 runs.
hahah. August? Really? Moron.
Red Sox fans are a nuisance, like the midges on Joba’s neck. For some reason, they have multiplied dramatically in the last few years. It will be fun to see their numbers dwindle when they don’t win this year.
“Well I agree but I would like to see a trade for Cain or Lincecum”
Why? because the grass is always greener? The Yankees HAVE three stud young starters. Why trade other needed talent to get another one? If you’re going to trade, why not fill holes?
Brandon, if that San Francisco deal goes through, I’m guessing that it’s multiple players on both sides. I think a 2 or 3 for 1 deal with Pittsburgh would do a deal for Marte.
ray, ray, ray,
Why you gotta come in here this morning and take a dump on our parade? lol.
Way to be a leader, Andy. He sure doesn’t sound like someone who was on the verge of retirement just a week and a half ago.
This Matsui for Sanchez rumor has to stop. Matsui is a 25/100 player even when hurt. Im not saying he shouldnt be traded. But come on, he has more value than getting a scrub relief pitcher in return and a lefty that doesnt throw strikes. Its time to shop him around for a better package. If you dont get anything good in return, how about just keeping him. Giambi will probably get hurt sooner rather than later.
I read that the tribe are going after Haren. If they land him, we can all agree that they would have the best 1-2-3 punch in the majors. Darn right scary. I hope the d-backs swoop in with a better package. Dont need the strong teams getting stronger.
“Your boy Beckett on August 29th. 12 hits 4 runs.
hahah. August? Really? Moron.”
I’m responding to what your fellow Sox lover said about how Wang pitched on September 15th. Two weeks earlier the tables were reversed. Of course I wouldn’t expect someone in a drunken stupor to understand.
And what’s more moronic, me on a Yankee blog talking about the Yankees, or Red Sox fans on a Yankee blog obsessing about the Yankees?
Andy P,we all love u..but Santana is great.
We should sign Wang and Cano for long term deals,no doubt about it.
As for drugs investigation im sure Andy,Arod,Rocket are clean.
“I would love to see how many times or hours a day some people spend on this site. There are a few member here that seem to monitor it by the minute. Very interesting to me. I know I check in plenty of times during the day but minutely (If such a word) is beyond comprehension during the off season lol.”
Haha, funny. I know i check almost minutely on this site during the offseason. It’s different during the season because I’m so busy watching every game.
As far as Cano and Wang go, I think we should lock up Cano for 6-7 and Wang for 3-4. If we win a championship in the next 4 years it won’t be hard to get them to stay another 6-7 years. They are the future of this organization. When Phil and Joba are becoming established pitchers, Wang will be the “vet” on the staff that will still be the ace. We know what we get from Wang day in and day out but I believe Phil and Joba will sparkle with greatness one night and be average on other nights. They’ve got a lot to get used to.
Sanchez would only be a small part of any deal with San Francisco.
I know Wang didn’t pitch great the one against Beckett,but you guys just want to remember any bad thing about Wang after this offseason.Don’t you remember the one Wang pitch 7IP 1H ball against Red Sox at Yankees stadium at the end of August when Yankees sweep Red Sox.During that series,Beckett didn’t pitch well.
yankee fan in boston
I was a fan of the Sox back in the days of Yastremski, Lonberg, and others so if being a fan for over 45 years makes one a bandwagon fan then I plead guilty to being a bandwagon fan.
“I think a 2 or 3 for 1 deal with Pittsburgh would do a deal for Marte.”
Two or three of the guys on the 40-man? Which? I mean…there’s a bunch of fringey guys on there that _could_ be good bullpen arms, and I’d happily trade a couple of them…but are the Pirates going to want that? Are you thinking about Melky and someone else? Betemit and someone else?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/.....id=3151217
O/T, but why would they be asked to stop if they had “pre-approval”? hmmm….
The only current Yankee i would suspect other than Jason would be Farnsworth.
But then again… if Paul Byrd used HGH who knows who could be using it.
Thats why Pettites a good club house guy. He stuck up for the teams # 1 pitcher, unlike his battery mate. Wang may not be an “Ace”, but he’s at least a king of clubs.
ray,
What? That makes you at least 50? Would’ve never guessed that.
mel
December 12th, 2007 at 11:48 am
ray, ray, ray,
Why you gotta come in here this morning and take a dump on our parade? lol.
Mel…could you pass me the toilet paper! Sorry Mel….I know I get carried away sometimes. I will try to behave myself.
HA! Goodbye Spygate. I never want to hear those words ever again. I bet this makes all the early evening sports shows and they all debate it. Man, what a waste. It takes so much away from this historic season.
Dolphins on the verge of 0-16 and Pats on the verge of 16-0.
Imagine the story it would make if the Dolphins go winless and then bounce back and grab a wildcard spot next season!
Take it for what it’s worth, but Heyman said on MMD last night that he still thought that while the Sox and Twins are still discussing options for packages, he thought the Yankees are still going to wind up with Johan because they are the only team that he sees that will offer him the extention that he will accept.
ray,
Don’t you read the Boston rags when taking care of business? Use that. haha.
Will Pete include audio from Pettitte’s presser or are those days officially over? The decline began at the winter meetings re: audio on this blog…
greenberat…If I was Cashman here is my stance
Matsui for Sanchez and Lowry
or
Matsui+others for Lincecum or Cain
Shot in the arm from Andy!
Yeah well maybe if Wang or 4 Era Andy Pettitte was a ace or at least played good against Boston maybe I’ll believe him.Can’t wait till Joba and Phil become the next Kerry Wood and Mark Prior in two years.
You can’t be a stud or Ace if you have as many hits per inning and your strikeouts is almost half less then your innings as well.
Wow, that’s a strong statement Andy!
I don’t agree he’s just being nice to say that about his teammate b/c “what else is he supposed to say”…I think that’s going out of his way to give a big vote of confidence to the Wanger.
I’ve always liked Wang (what’s not to like…nice guy, hard working, 19 win seasons) but after the kind of therapy I need from the playoff he will always makes me nervous especially in big spots. I’m no pitching pro but I keep thinking his sinker has been figured out. I want to believe, but I’m holding on to my big bottle of Pepto Bismol next time I see him pitch.
“Cliff Lee and Kelly Shoppach weren’t part of the Jason Bay discussions. Instead, the Pirates were looking for a slew of the Indians’ best prospects. It seems the Bay talks have since cooled.”
This is interesting. If the Pirates are looking to restock their system, the Yankees could certainly put together a small package of high-upside guys in the low minors for Marte. Though, I’d want to put at least one guy from the 40-man on there. Bruney or Beam or some hard-throwing righty, but more likely someone like Marquez who might actually be good.
Marquez and some really-far-away-but-potentially-good/great young guy or two?
mel, mel, mel
be nice now! lol
David Cone pitched to a 16.20 ERA in the ’97 ALDS.
Roger Clemens almost cost the Yankees the 2000 championship by losing twice in the ALDS.
Andy Pettitte got bombed in Game 6 in Arizona in 2001 and then got bombed again in his start against the Angels in 2002.
Why didn’t the Yankees give up on them like some people want to give up on Wang now? Because only a fool would give up on a 19-game winner because he struggled for a night or two in the playoffs. Do you have any idea how insane it is to suggest a third-year pitcher who wins 19 games two years in a row is NOT an ace?
Sorry, but this is typical thinking for a fan who jumped on the bandwagon three years into the dynasty: Throw a ton of money at the veteran guy, give up whatever it takes to get him, and let’s go for it this year. The Yankees have what it takes right now to build another dynasty. Good young pitching and a dominant offense. But you have some people who just don’t want to take a chance that we’ll go into a season a slight underdog. I just think it’s funny that the best reason someone can come up with to trade the future and pay Johan Santana $20 million a year is that the back-to-back 19-game winner lost a few games last October.
“Matsui for Sanchez and Lowry”
That would be a disaster. Lowry is not an AL pitcher, and Sanchez has no idea where the ball is going. Trading Matsui is NOT A SALARY DUMP. He’s a valuable hitter.
“Yeah well maybe if Wang or 4 Era Andy Pettitte was a ace or at least played good against Boston maybe I’ll believe him.”
Oh, I see! The problem is that you don’t actually WATCH baseball!
They both played well against Boston, Andy’s ERA was a great 3.81 until his last start where he didn’t care and got bombed.
Will Wang enter his FA at age of 30?In my opinion,Yankees should give Wang and Cano long term deals since the way to do business in baseball has changed a lot.Yankees front office should follow the trend and avoid paying extra money for that “traditionâ€.If I have to choose one of them to give long term deals,I will give to Wang before Cano based on this crazy pitching market and example of Pavano.Do you know how much money Yankees will have to pay Wang if Wang go on FA this off-season?
Pettitte is the man and he is right.I know most of you guys want to throw Wang out of window after this playoff,but He won 72% of his starts at his career so far.You can say all you want about run support.Wang doesn’t win all his games because of offense,he has almost 3.5 ERA in the AL East and give Yankees a chance to win almost every time out.You can say all you want how good Santana is,but the truth of matter is Santana career ERA against AL East close to 4.I don’t mean Wang is better than Santana,but don’t sell Wang low.”Want” is not equal to “Need”.Santana is great,but I won’t give up Hughes for him.
In my opinion,this playoff is good experience for Wang young career because it set up for failure for him from the beginning.Wang had 7-days rest for game 1 on the road and then 3-days rest for game 2.After this year,he will know how to deal with that.Wang’s work ethic, toughness,low-keyed personality and the ability to deal with pressure are without question.That’s why I will choose to give Wang before Cano if I have to choose one of them.You guys all see what happen to Pavano.Personality sometimes play an important role when you decide to give a player long term contract.
Having the offense we have allows us to get away with Wang being an ace.
So, yeah, in an ideal world we have that real ace. But as of now, Wang & Pettitte are it. Wang’s a good pitcher and a good kid. Really, a work in progress and very young yet. With the exception of postseason ’07, he’s done very well for the Yankees.
So, Wang’s not an ace. He’ll do nicely until we get one or one steps up. But don’t kid yourself, he’s a good pitcher and many teams would take him off our hands if we wanted.
Whozat, Pittsburgh needs at least a couple of relief pitchers and a starter who would be better of in the NL. That would be someone like Rasner or DeSalvo, or, both along with Gonzales or Bruney. All cheap and time controlled. A shortstop to replace Wilson. Not sure that it would take a Cabrera. They have about 3 starters that will start with experience. Brad Eldred is the only decent minor league reguilar they have and their top AAA winners were 27 years old. Van Benshoten is 27 now and 0-7 in Pittsburgh. Bullintin wasn’t much better. Chacon and Torres are gone and they’re trying to move Morris.
I don’t try to sell Wang is an ACE,but don’t sell him this low.
No way do the Yanks do a Lowrey and Sanchez for Matsui
“But don’t kid yourself, he’s a good pitcher and many teams would take him off our hands if we wanted.”
That said, I do want to see him figure out a way to get guys to swing at his sinker again. Perhaps by establishing his four seamer more effectively. I mean, he can throw in the mid 90s, we all saw it. If he can locate that pitch, and then come in with a sinker that looks the same out of his hand, that’d be devastating.
And look at the alternatives out there for SP. There’s a dearth of good pitching. In other words it sucks. There was one good pitcher out there and we got him.
Can’t believe we have to defend Matsui and Wang here.
Take Beckett out of Boston’s playoffs and it’s a cross your fingers situation.
Boston fans are famous for not reading between the lines. Seeing only what they want to see.
whozat,
Remember that brilliant start against the Sox, a one-hitter maybe? What did he say was the reason? “I mix it up” (loosely).
When his sinker’s not sinking he has to go away from it, not abandon it, but just don’t live and die by it.
Deal deal like Matsui, Betemit, Marquez and Kennedy might bring in Cain/Linecum, Ortmeier, and Sanchez and ask for Wiulson (not much chance), though, and add in about 3 mil in cash. Sabean says he needs a draw, outfield power, infield help and a pitcher for this year and beyond. He wants to field a representative team this year. He has no infield except for Vazquel.
“Pittsburgh needs at least a couple of relief pitchers and a starter who would be better of in the NL. That would be someone like Rasner or DeSalvo, or, both along with Gonzales or Bruney. All cheap and time controlled. A shortstop to replace Wilson.”
Why do they need a starter? They have four young guys that they’re planning to keep. It seems like they’d want a “veteran presence”, if you will, as a starter, if anything. The Yanks don’t have one to send (Moose will clearly not go). So, I don’t think the Yanks have a starter that’d appeal to them, not one they’d be willing to trade.
Also, I don’t think Wilson is going anywhere…there were rumors early on, but those have died.
Relievers, sure, I’m sure they’d want some. The Yanks have, as I said, some fringey starters that could work out as relievers. So maybe one or two of those guys as a throw in.
But, based on what they’re looking for in exchange for Bay, I don’t think they’re going to send off a legit setup guy for a bunch of quasi-MLB spare parts. They want young talent. If they’re willing to take VERY young talent, the Yanks could have a match without hurting the organization too much.
In a dream Joba would have an ERA of about 0.9 and kennedy would keep his september numbers we wouldn’t lose a game with them pitching
How many innings before someone gets a run off Joba as a starter in the real world 1, 10,maybe 5 games.
What do You think?
“When his sinker’s not sinking he has to go away from it, not abandon it, but just don’t live and die by it.”
Yes, I understand that. However, the problem he had in the playoffs was that his sinker WAS sinking, but no one would swing at it because they knew it was coming. If it wasn’t going to be a strike, they’d let it go. If he elevated it so that it WOULD be a strike, they knew where it’d end up and they could crush it.
Looks like Bay to Cleveland brings back Franklin Gutierrez
“What do You think?”
How many innings? Some time in his first game, probably. 2, 3.
Joe Go,
If I remember correctly, Hughes had better minor league numbers than Joba. But even considering that, Joba has proved he can dominate in the majors, so I’ll predict Santana-like numbers. Sub-3 ERA. Good strikeout numbers and lotsa, lotsa wins!
Andy Hawkins-
Not saying we should give up on Wang but he and Pettitte aren’t aces,Wang included.He is a good pitcher on a great team like Pettitte in his prime not bad but not great.104 strikouts in 199 innings is not helping your cause we need someone in the playoffs that can throw strikeouts and a 19 ERa is no excuse.Joba and Hughes will take 3 to 4 years to be anything even close to Santana.This isn’t a rebuilding team to have that waiting games.
Also why are people saying Santana is a old vetern…he is 29!!!
Randy Johnson won 17 games twice at 40 and 41 and it wasn’t the myth of not being able to play in New York but a bad back the cause of not playing as good as when he was what 29!!!
Santana is still on the block because the Yankees are waiting for the Red Sox not to do anything.And Jon Heyman said himself be believes Santana will be a Yankee and Hank also left the door open.So for you “Big Three” guys you ain’t sleeping for awhile.
I like Hughes and don’t mind if we keep him but Santana will play better then HUghes in the next 5 years for sure.
It did seem that they werent swinging at the sinking pitches and waiting for him to elevate one.So could it be that teams now know how to hit Wang? We keep talking about Japanese pitchers going downhill after a couple of years, could there be a possibility that Wang has been figured out and has to change the way he pitches? Ot could all this be because of his nail problems?
Well, the same thing could be said about Mariano. Hitters are figuring him out.
mel wrote
If I remember correctly, Hughes had better minor league numbers than Joba. But even considering that, Joba has proved he can dominate in the majors, so I’ll predict Santana-like numbers. Sub-3 ERA. Good strikeout numbers and lotsa, lotsa wins!
Mel I think that Joba will dominate like he did relief but will have a very low ERA somwhere between 2.00 and 3.50 depends how his starter workouts will be like
Hopefully he wins them all (We do have great off.)
“Looks like Bay to Cleveland brings back Franklin Gutierrez”
Ok, so young high-upside MLB talent. If that’s the price, then the Yankees can basically forget making a deal with the Pirates unless they’re willing to deal guys like Horne or Melancon at a minimum.
What I’m saying is that the Pirates aren’t going to take young fringe guys like Rasner or Karstens, or Gonzalez for Marte. If they’re willing to go younger for higher upside, the Yanks match. If they’re not, they don’t, really.
Since you know this is a fact can you also provide me with the Mega millions numbers for the next year?
“could there be a possibility that Wang has been figured out and has to change the way he pitches?”
That’s what Guidry was saying. I think he does need to mix it up, but in terms of setting up the sinker more. If teams know that anything with fastball spin is going to be the sinker, it’s kind of useless unless the team is free-swinging.
mel-
True but his worst is a 3ERa in the best hitting division.And he was used every 5 games in April when he had a 10 Era.
Also Mariano Rivera in the post seaon 4IP, 2 hits,0 ER,6 Strikeouts is what you really paid for and he hasn’t been figured out there.
Teams have figured Wang out, it’s pretty simple. He also stunk for the last few months of the regular season, too.
The demand for Matsui has risen with Fukodome off the market. The teams who missed out on Fukodome still need offense in the OF. Perhaps San Diego will enter the Matsui sweepstakes with the Giants. The Pads have some solid young relievers and a third base prospect (Headley) who might interest the Twins.
The Yankees need to reduce payroll to accomodate Santana and if they pick up some bonus pieces to package together, they should trade Matsui, Mussina and Igawa.
Eddie Layton – I don’t think Pettitte went so far as to ‘publicly humiliate’ Posada just by offering a different opinion on Santana. It’s not like he said Posada was a moron for having a different opinion … they just have different opinions.
In fact, Posada didn’t necessarily mean he didn’t think his teammates were good enough to win without an ace. While he said something like ‘we need an ace’, I took it as saying ‘yeah a guy like Santana would help put us over the top’ rather than something along the more extreme lines of ‘absolutely, nobody here is good enough to win without him’. You’d also have to take into account any number of ways the question may have been asked to Posada and/or Pettitte before knowing if one had publicly humiliated the other.
Who wouldn’t Santana be able to help? The overall asking price is high, that’s for sure. Maybe Pettitte & Posada are just in the same boat as the rest of us in considering what it’d actually be worth sacrificing in return.
I’ve said it before; Matsui and Igawa to SD for Chase Headley and minor league arms.
BC is targeting the wrong NL West team.
Spin Headley as a center of a new package for Johan.
Extend Johan, and its all done and we can mvoe on with our lives.
Kelli in Conn.
December 12th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
“Take Beckett out of Boston’s playoffs and it’s a cross your fingers situation.
Boston fans are famous for not reading between the lines. Seeing only what they want to see.”
Kelli,
I don’t think many Sox fans are underestimating how important Beckett was in the playoffs. I’m a Boston fan and I know full well that without Beckett in the playoffs last year the whole thing probably would have turned out differently.
How does Matsui for Sanchez and Lowry make sense? The rotation would be Wang, Pettitte, Hughes, Kennedy, Lowry, Chamberlain, Mussina..Seven (I guess you could move Joba to the Bullpen, but basically you are saying that Lowry is a better starter than him). I guess it’s yet to be seen, but (if possible) wouldn’t you rather trade Matsui as part of a deal that gets maybe a 1B and a RP.
With others in the system who could start down the road…Maquez, Horne, etc…not to mention Kei Igawa, SP doesn’t seem like a major need, well, not a middle/end of the rotation starter at least. It seems we have those.
whozat
December 12th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
“Looks like Bay to Cleveland brings back Franklin Gutierrezâ€
Ok, so young high-upside MLB talent. If that’s the price, then the Yankees can basically forget making a deal with the Pirates unless they’re willing to deal guys like Horne or Melancon at a minimum.
What I’m saying is that the Pirates aren’t going to take young fringe guys like Rasner or Karstens, or Gonzalez for Marte. If they’re willing to go younger for higher upside, the Yanks match. If they’re not, they don’t, really.
__________________________________________________
The option right now is numbers, because their bullpen is rookies. They lost two expensive vets and talk talk is either leftie Grabow or Marte have to go. Capps is the closer. Their best players are AA and below. They have a lot of 30-37 year olds in AAA and 27 to 32 year olds in AA. They are really an old team everywhere. Looks like the state of the ’65-’71 Yankees.
Joe Go
Joba will get scored on – he was dominant in relief but he’s human. If he gives up 3 runs a game as a starter, that’ll be a pretty darn good season.
SAndMan,
Who’s “he”? Mo?
Mo’s still a stud, cuz Mo was filthy nasty in the mid-90′s toward the end of the season
What I’m trying to say is that, like most pitchers, the more that hitters see you, the more they figure you out. The Orioles really had his number this year. Or at the very least they hit him very well.
there has not one peep from SD, not one ..where are you getting this ?
and while id love to get Cain or Lincecum, people here have to be realistic.
yankees fans are going nuts because Cashman wants to trade Phil Hughes for the best pitcher in the game… but now they want to take another team’s equivalent of Phil Hughes for an aging LF, and some spare parts.
before you suggest Matsui and IPK for Cain or Lincecum, ask yourself, would you take Matsui and IPK for Phil Hughes? I know I wouldnt.
“Looks like Bay to Cleveland brings back Franklin Gutierrez”
That’s not what I’m reading. There’s a link off of mlbtraderumors today to a cleveland paper that reports they were looking for top prospects in return for Bay. I figure they’d be looking for a similar type of return for Marte. I don’t think you count Gutierrez as a prospect anymore. If they’re willing to take very young top guys, I think the Yanks could make a good deal here. I don’t think Marte’d command the kind of price Bay would, so one top very young guy and a couple of could-be relievers.
Is Marquez a good enough propsect? Kelvin Deleon, a very young OFer? Or would it take a Tabata, Jackson or Horne as the centerpiece?
Brandon, I said ‘I’ve said this before’, not that its been published anywhere else. It is the move that makes the most sense, to me anyway.
Finally, Pettitte tells it how it is.
Ranting Guy
Joba will get scored on – he was dominant in relief but he’s human. If he gives up 3 runs a game as a starter, that’ll be a pretty darn good season.
I agree that might happen but thats still great
Gotta go
If anyone has ideas how to be able to post on the blog while i’m on a cell (that’s where i’m on most of the time) Thanks alot
I don’t see Headley as the “centerpiece” of any Santana deal but he fills a need for the Twins and would make a nice addition to a trade proposal.
Mel-
I think it’s just the product of the division.THe Orioles like the Red Sox not only see MO a lot more but they also have a great lineup.But I think last year was the year of the staters.This year was will be the year of the relievers that are gonna be healthy and hopefully we can find a heir for MO because you can only run away from time so long.
Also with the Twins getting Craig Monroe for the outfield maybe a centerfield ready player might not be high on this list.Maybe they’ll focus on more pitching prospects.
Part of Rivera’s mystique was that unhittable cutter. He threw it knowing hitters knew it was coming. As Mo ages, he has to reinvent himself as a pitcher in the way that Schilling, Clemens, and Moose have. Can not be “arrogant” and just throw that cutter. Although, I love it when he makes the younger guys swing at that high fastball.
GB7,
The option right now is numbers, because their bullpen is rookies. They lost two expensive vets and talk talk is either leftie Grabow or Marte have to go. Capps is the closer. Their best players are AA and below. They have a lot of 30-37 year olds in AAA and 27 to 32 year olds in AA. They are really an old team everywhere. Looks like the state of the ‘65-’71 Yankees.
How do their fans put up with that team? They have been horsecrap since Bonds left in what, 1993?
The lack of talent there is stunning.
“Their best players are AA and below. ”
So are the Yankees’ best prospects, outside of the obvious three.
So, perhaps my point that there’s not a good match between the Yanks and the Pirates stands.
“there has not one peep from SD, not one ..where are you getting this ?”
Exactly. Cash isn’t targeting anyone for a Matsui trade. They’re coming to him. And I think that’s the right way to play it. Teams know Matsui may be available. Going out and looking to trade him just lowers the price. If the Yanks don’t want to move him (and I don’t think they do), then teams need to pony up a better offer to get him.
Joe Go,
There’s a graphic below the archives on the right of the page.
“I don’t see Headley as the “centerpiece†of any Santana deal but he fills a need for the Twins and would make a nice addition to a trade proposal.”
Why not? Isn’t he a highly-touted young guy at a position of need for the Twins?
Seems like Tejada is a Astro.
Seems like Tejada is a Astro
“before you suggest Matsui and IPK for Cain or Lincecum, ask yourself, would you take Matsui and IPK for Phil Hughes? I know I wouldnt.”
Depends. Does my team have generally good pitching, but a horrific offense?
Not that the Giants fit that bill, of course. They’re terrible at everything, except for Lincecum and Cain.
Now, if I were the Dodgers, or Padres…Matsui would give me more power than anyone I have on my team. And I have some good pitching. So…then maybe it’s a deal I’m willing to make.
Whozat, Gutierrez was the name mentioned yesterday. I’ll look for the article. Well, since it’s Pittsburgh, money will make the biggest splash with a couple of lower grade pitchers. Not sure that Bruney would get it done, but, no way I’d include Ohlendorf. Britton, maybe.
Well, it’s official now, I just got a news alert from Yankees.com. Andy’s a Yankee. lol.
That’s Sabean’n problem. He’s got maybe 5 players that can bring anything of value and 4 of them are pitchers.
for anyone who bashes a low 4 era…thats 6.2 IP giving up 3 ER….id take that every start from wang and pettite…
I consider Andy our ace.
Miguel Tejada to the Astros. See ESPN.com
According to a report in the Baltimore Sun, Baltimore Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada got traded for outfielder Luke Scott, pitchers Matt Albers, Troy Patton and Dennis Sarfate, and third baseman Michael Costanzo.
i want to see rivera seriously start to work his change up in this year. he threw it last year in ST and got a few strike outs. it doesn’t even have to be a great pitch, just good enough to keep the hitters off balance. if rivera is going to be effective for the rest of his contract he needs to work on another pitch. all the greats do.
Yep. Tejada is an Astro…..
Astros Acquire Tejada
This comes as a surprise, on the heels of a Rosenthal report to the contrary. Jeff Zrebiec says the Astros have acquired Miguel Tejada for Luke Scott, Matt Albers, Troy Patton, Dennis Sarfate, and Mike Costanzo.
That’s a fine haul for Baltimore. The Astros pretty much cleaned out their farm system for two years of an average-hitting third baseman. The average NL 3B had an .804 OPS in ’07; Tejada was at .799 in the AL. I know some readers think I’m an Astro-hater but that’s not the case. I just think they gave up way too much here. Patton was ranked their third best prospect by Baseball America, Costanzo sixth. Scott is a cheap quality regular, and Albers was third on the team’s 2007 top prospect list.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Chase Headley I don’t think would make a good centerpiece to a Santana trade. If the Twinkies were looking for Hughes and Kennedy or Lester and Ellsbury for Santana, Headley wouldn’t be enough. Nor would I believe that Kennedy/Headley would be enough. It would probably still be Hughes/Headley/Melky just to get them to notice us. Not worth the price of admission IMO.
True, but I don’t think the Yankees would view this as getting enough in return. The Yankees would more than likely ask for another MLB ready player. Matsui’s 20+ HR and 100+ RBI would be worth more than just Headley and some minor arms IMO.
Again, this is all just my opinion, but I doubt they would view a Kennedy/Headley package as an upgrade to an Ellsbury/Lowrie package. If anything, they probably view Ellsbury>Kennedy at the moment. Taking the Marlins/Tigers trade as a reference, it would probably take at least Hughes and Headley (if the SD trade happened) as well as Melky just to get their attention, but don’t count out the mechanizations of Theo. I’m sure he’ll raise the price to make it distasteful enough for Cash to bail. Bill Smith is also known to covet Ellsbury almost as much as Theo does. (ew.)
In the end, two things: one – I don’t believe we’d be getting enough return in the Matsui trade idea and two – I don’t think the Twins would value a Kennedy/Headley trade as enough or equal to a Ellsbury/Lowrie trade based on everything that I’ve read so far. It’s an interesting idea, but without another top prospect in there (Lincecum or Cain for example), Smith is probably not going to bite.
To the people not expecting much from Hughes/Joba/Kennedy next year:
Look at Wang’s career. He wasn’t doing that great in AAA when he was first called up (4.24 ERA), and had a spotty minor league track record. Some good years, some lousy years. Yet he’s been very successful. A good first year, and two excellent years after that.
Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy all have drastically better minor league track records than Wang. You’ve got to look at Wang’s time in A- ball to get comparable numbers. I would expect them to transition to the majors better than Wang did.
Pete:
Sorry for diverting from the topic, but I have a couple of Mitchell questions before I head back to the desk:
Is Mitchell faxing and/or emailing the report to media? (Or is MLB?) Anyway, I’m assuming they are shooting for a.m. drive time tomorrow, but maybe not. Have they disclosed what time yet, like after midnight tonight, tomorrow at 4 am? Will you post a link to it here?
Thanks.
TEJADA TO HOUSTON
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3151849
But I guarantee someone’s posted it already
What’s Neyer’s point? Doesn’t believe a guy asked the question or disbelief that Buster didn’t include Clemens?
…yep, I’m late.
Who was it that rafted Tejada last night, anyway?
Wow! The Astros really cleaned out their farm system to get Tejada – a guy they’ll count on to play third and he’s never played there. Not to mention his average OPS for a 3B.
If the O’s have traded Tejada Bedard will probably go soon. Melvin Mora also if they can unload him.
Supposedly Cincinnati is willing to trade Homer Bailey and is interested in a starter – Bedard and Haren.
I’d think a package around Homer Bailey and Joey Votto would be a difficult one to top unless the Dodgers or Diamondbacks want to get involved.
Supposedly the O’s have asked for Jay Bruce and Cincy has said no. There’s no way they can trade Bruce, especially if they are willing to give up Bailey.
I don’t think they’ll trade Bedard inside the division, especially to the yankees or sox.
Murphy saw a news item that Mitchell is having a 2PM news conference the report will then be posted on MLB.com/ Selig and MLB are having there press conference 2 hours later.
Nevermind my last post….
George Mitchell called a news conference for Thursday to announce the results of his 20-month investigation into drug use in baseball.
Bud Selig does not plan to attend the news conference at a Manhattan hotel a few blocks from the commissioner’s office.
Mitchell said Wednesday he will release his report then, and it will be posted online at MLB.com shortly after that. Selig will hold his own news conference 2 1/2 hours after the one by Mitchell.
What are these players from Houston like, aka how will Baltimore be in 2-3 years?
I’m glad Andy said what he said. We can win without Johan. I think folks are putting way too much stock in Wang’s performace in the playoffs this year. He had a bad series. The two years prior to that he was one of our most dependable starters. Wang is a stud, and will get better which is scary for other teams. I think that this team will do better than most people expect. I am hoping that this team picks up where they left off in the second half of the season and keeps rolling. My BIG concern is that Joba played a larger role in the second half success out of the pen than is being recogonized. So the challenge will be which one of the 15,000 pitchers will actually work out in the 7th and 8th innings. Should be fun to watch…..I hope.
Rebecca – Mik R. drafted Tejada 3rd Rd.
Murphy and here is the blurb from the AP story
NEW YORK (AP) — George Mitchell called a news conference for Thursday at 2 p.m. ET to announce the results of his 20-month investigation into drug use in baseball.
Bud Selig does not plan to attend the news conference at a Manhattan hotel a few blocks from the commissioner’s office.
Mitchell said Wednesday he will release his report then, and it will be posted online at MLB.com shortly after that. Selig will hold his own news conference 2 1/2 hours after the one by Mitchell.
OF COURSE WE NEED SANTANA OR A REAL ACE.
** Mike R.
Brandon: Thank you, thank you!
Ken Rosenthal is reporting that Tejada will play shortstop for the astros.
That team seems to have absolutely no plan at all.
Adam Evertt may be on the move.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s.....038;ATT=49
Gotta love how 1 or 2 bad games lead everyone to change their entire opinion on Wang. Let’s remember that Wang pitched the second game on 3 day’s rest.
astros are morons…a cheap .850 ops hitting outfielder, a mid-back
rotation starter, a power bullpen arm, and two more utility parts
for a tweener 3b/ss with rapidly declining skills. This would’ve
been a fair trade for the Oakland A version of Tejada, now it looks
more likes a MLB-equivalent of Vikings donating their franchise to
Dallas for Herschel Walker (albeit, ok, not *that* awful)
Why haven’t the Orioles said yes to the Reds offer for Bedard? I would’ve said yes the moment they made that offer. It’s not like any other team is going to top that or come close.
I like how the Reds are going for it this year. Gotta give them so credit. The NL Central is definitely up for grabs.
For those looking for it the audio of Andy’s conference call is now on Yankees.com.FYI Pete got the first question.
The Astros org is a lost cause. There isn’t much more u can say about them. I feel bad for Hunter Pence. Poor guy doesn’t know what lies ahead for him.
E-Roc,
I agree. But I think ultimately, the O’s are really in the drivers seat here. Every team in baseball would want bedard – he’s signed very reasonably for two years.
I think they can wait for the best offer and really try to drive them up.
Supposedly the Mariners were trying to put a package together around Adam Jones.
I’d do the same if I were the O’s. Wait and try get the bids to spiral.
If those reports are true about Cincy’s willingness to deal Bailey and Votto this early on you have to figure they would up the ante.
You’re right – its clear Cincy wants to go for it now. You could probably get a lot from them for Bedard (or Haren)
If I were the O’s I’d try to get Bruce and Bailey – if the Tigers got Miller and Maybin for Cabrera I’d push for Bruce and Bailey if i were McPhail. I know they had Willis in that deal but I wonder if the other 4 prospects detroit sent were the part that made up for including Willis (at least in part).
gayle: Andy say anything interesting?
“don’t think the Twins would value a Kennedy/Headley trade as enough or equal to a Ellsbury/Lowrie trade based on everything that I’ve read so far. It’s an interesting idea, but without another top prospect in there”
I’m pretty sure Headley is a top prospect. I’m also pretty sure Lowrie isn’t. So…why wouldn’t Kennedy + Headley (two top prospects) turn the Twins heads?
I’d love to call everyone’s attention back to the 1996 World Series. If I recall, Andy got blown out in game 1, and all was lost. He was overrated, not a true ace, no way could he match up with Smoltz or Maddux. He ended up basically winning the series for us with a 1-0 shutout on three days rest.
How about the 2001 series. We lost four games, he got blown out twice, no way he could match up with Randy Johnson; he was the real goat of the series. Overrated, blah blah blah. That’s the thinking that led this organization to let him go, despite his having won more games than any left-handed pitcher in baseball since his career began, and instead prioritize its efforts on signing Javier Vazquez. Great call.
Wang pitched in two playoff series before this. Two years ago, in a must-win game 2, he went 6.2 and gave up one run. Last year, he went 6.2 and gave up three, good enough for the win.
All of a sudden, Wang has a bad series and he’s not an ace. These are the same people that said Mo was over the hill after 2004.
“I know they had Willis in that deal but I wonder if the other 4 prospects detroit sent were the part that made up for including Willis (at least in part).”
I think that at least some of the extra parts were in there for Cabrera alone. What I read was that the only way they could get both top guys was to include Willis.
Because the offer would come from the Yankees and teams always want more. If we offered Kennedy/Headley they would want Hughes/Headley + a prospect.
Bailey and Votto in a package for Bedard has been widely mentioned since the tail end of the winter meetings. Bedard will be traded one way or the other. He has flat out said he won’t re-sign with the Orioles. LOL!
If the Mariners throw in a high ceiling pitcher, then the Orioles should trade with the M’s. Otherwise, I’d begin finalizing a deal with the Reds already.
The Reds won’t give up Bruce. I just can’t see them doing it after what he has accomplished this past season. I wouldn’t include him. Scouts compare him to Larry Walker.
Last time I have checked, Wang and Pettitte have great records against the Red Sox. The Red Sox fans seem to forget that they have losing records against the Yankees every season, including Beckett, Schilling, and Daisuke. I do not want to hear that they beaten against the Yankees. Their ERA was terrible against the Yanks and they hoped that they did not ahve to face them in the playoffs as they knew they could not win.
As for Wang, the only reason why people do not see him as an ace is because he does not have flare since he is a successful contact pitcher. If you look at other aces, Beckett, Peavy, Kazmir, Bedard, Sabathia, Santana, etc. they have high K/9 ratio. Wang has increase the amount of strikeouts per start but he is a different style pitcher.
Give me your opinions.
“Two years ago, in a must-win game 2, he went 6.2 and gave up one run.”
Well…he gave up one EARNED run. The rest he gave up because of some disastrous infield D, mostly by Giambi. Came in to field a bunt and then bounced a throw to home.
The Astros should have waited one more day until the Mitchell (aka Red Sox propaganda) report comes out because you can bet Miggy’s name will be on it. Now wonder the Orioles were so desperate to get rid of the guy.
When you listen to Pettitte conference call,he basically believe Yankees have ACE on Wang and Joba.He know Red Sox will be tough because they prove it on winning champion in 2007,but he disagree Yankees need Santana or Haren for success in 2008
I am not feeling good about my Tejada pick. I don’t think it is a coincidence that the trade was finalized the day after MLB recieved the report. Every team must have an insider in the MLB front office.
Jessica: Thanks for the update =)
“Because the offer would come from the Yankees and teams always want more. If we offered Kennedy/Headley they would want Hughes/Headley + a prospect.”
If that were true, then it’d be clear they have no intention of actually completing a trade at all.
I know we all have our conspiracy theories, but what’s going on here is that they’re using the Sox to try to make the Yankees panic and overpay. If the Yankees hold the line, they’ll either get Santana for a reasonable price in prospects, or he’ll stay with the Twins. Kennedy/Melky plus someone like Horne or Jackson and Whelan is a package comparable to the Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson offer, and the Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson offer. Hughes/Melky plus a lesser prospect is probably better than those offers. Kennedy/Headley + 1 would be almost unquestionably better.
Could Arod be on the list,therefore the reason for waiting this long to announce him being on the team?
There is absolutely no way A-rod is on that list.
Maybe Santana told the Twins that he didnt want to go to the sox.Santana being a professional isnt going public with it. So the twins continue to send out rumors that its still in the works. When in reality they are waiting for the Yanks to comeback with an offer.
he could.. no one surely knows, I doubt it but remember Arod and Mo have not been signed officially yet
I think I agree with Pete. There really wont be anyone or anything shocking to this list. Its going to be the same names and accusations we have been hearing about for years.
“I’m pretty sure Headley is a top prospect. I’m also pretty sure Lowrie isn’t.”
I don’t know if you can say Chase Headley is a top prospect yet. It’s also hard to compare him to Lowrie because of the difference in their positions. I think they’re both close in terms of their prospect status.
Headley and Lowrie are the same sage. Lowrie has had success at AAA while Headley was in AA the whole year.
A question people have on Headley is how for real was his performance this past year. He was much, much better in AA than A ball the year before. He was just OK in single A but had a tremendous year in AA. So the question with him is whether he had a true breakout or not.
As far as 3rd base prospects he’s nowhere near the Evan Longoria category. I think he’d need to have a similar kind of year this year in AAA for people to really think he’s an elite prospect. At 23 he was on the older side for AA.
People like Lowerie – he’s a very good hitting shortstop who finished up the year strongly at AAA. It’s just not easy to find middle infielders with a strong bat.
I’m sure Cashman is working the phones right about know to work a trade or two with more numbers going out than coming in. There’s no rush to finalize those two signings.
It is said to be a list of 60-80 names. I dont think there has been more than 20 players have been accused in the past. So maybe it might not be names of superstars,but there will be names that havnt been mentioned before. I assume players we never thought took them. Judging by their physical stature.
Where’s the lovin’ for my boy the Viz?
Rebecca his comments about Joe Torre and how much that played into his decision was interesting. For those who believe that it has any bearing he basically said as much as he loves Joe and will always have a relationship with him bottom line it is the Yankees that pay his salary and they are the ones that obligated the money to bring him back, showed faith in him and in the end the decision had to be about Yankees and the city rather than Joe.
Like Pete reported in the thread he is VERY VERY high on Wang.The vigor in which he talked about him suprised me.
Cannot rule out pitching in 09.Depends on how he feels, how is family feels about it. Pitching in the new stadium is certainly interesting.
The Mitchell Report – has not heard anything since the LA times story a year ago, Doesnt know anything else about it. Has no expectations about the report have to wait and see what it says and he has nothing to say about it and he was here to discuss coming back to the Yankees.
Working with Joe G-has a great relationship looking forward to working with him. Not quite sure how it will work but very excited.
Anthony MCcaron of the Daily News asked about a trainer that Andy had worked with in the past and if he had worked with him this year and if he knew if he had testified for the MItchell report- He said no not training with him and has no clue about the other part of the question.
Also of interest was how much he is working with the young guys and how important that is.
I’d hate to think it, but, Jeff Bagwell is a possibility for THE LIST.
Wang is a horse, 200 innings a year, most wins in the majors last 2 seasons. He may not be a true “ace”, but newsflash…he’s the best starting pitcher that we have. Sign that guy up long term, it’s a no brainer.
Postseason Pitching
Josh Beckett
6W 2L 3SHO
ERA=1.73
Wang
1 W 3L ERA=7.58
19IP—5HR….wow….
Drop your price about 1.5 mil a year and 2 years off your begging price, Beaner.
Bean Stringfellow
December 12th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Where’s the lovin’ for my boy the Viz?
———-
I think Colorado right now.
I’d hate to thiunk think it but Lowell may be on that list too
I’d hate to think it but Mike Lowell may be on that list too
whozat
December 12th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
If that were true, then it’d be clear they have no intention of actually completing a trade at all.
I know we all have our conspiracy theories, but what’s going on here is that they’re using the Sox to try to make the Yankees panic and overpay. If the Yankees hold the line, they’ll either get Santana for a reasonable price in prospects, or he’ll stay with the Twins. Kennedy/Melky plus someone like Horne or Jackson and Whelan is a package comparable to the Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson offer, and the Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson offer. Hughes/Melky plus a lesser prospect is probably better than those offers. Kennedy/Headley + 1 would be almost unquestionably better.
In our eyes, Kennedy is = to or better than Lester. But it’s not our eyes that matter. It’s Bill Smith’s. And right now, he thinks Lester > Kennedy. Whether or not we think there’s any truth to that doesn’t matter. And at the moment, Smith is enamored with Ellsbury. And it seems like to him that Ellsbury = Hughes. So if we had a Headley, it’d be Hughes/Headley/Melky + prospect to start the discussion.
My vote is Luis Gonzalez for the list. Maybe Sean Greene and J.D. Drew as well.
The “True Ace” that everyone wants to match up against Beckett is a bit misleading. On paper, NOBODY matches up with Beckett in the post season, his numbers are sick. Santana’s career ps #’s are not even close.
http://www.baseball-reference......jo02.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference......jo02.shtml
We would all hate to think Schilling is in it since he lost like 4 miles an hour on his fastball overnight.
That sounds alot like Mussina dont it?
Loaiza i would say could be as well.
Andy is fearless. I love having him around the staff of young guys. There is simply no better attitude to have wear off on the kids.
There won’t be any current Sux players on that list. Mitchell is a fraud.
Last time I have checked, Wang and Pettitte have great records against the Red Sox. The Red Sox fans seem to forget that they have losing records against the Yankees every season, including Beckett, Schilling, and Daisuke. I do not want to hear that they beaten against the Yankees. Their ERA was terrible against the Yanks and they hoped that they did not ahve to face them in the playoffs as they knew they could not win.
As for Wang, the only reason why people do not see him as an ace is because he does not have flare since he is a successful contact pitcher. If you look at other aces, Beckett, Peavy, Kazmir, Bedard, Sabathia, Santana, etc. they have high K/9 ratio. Wang has increase the amount of strikeouts per start but he is a different style pitcher.
Andy Pettitte is da man, we do not need Santana to win a World Series, we need a better bullpen which is improving.
Give me your opinions on Wang.
Any and everybody who has ever played MLB could be on the list. It’s an exercise in futility to speculate who could be on the list.
Come tomorrow we will all *know* who is on the list and then the speculation can *finally* be over with.
Would anyone have guessed that Paul Byrd used performance enhancers before the information came out? To just throw names out in the wind about who we think may be on the list is totally reckless.
*in my best Forrest Gump voice* And that’s all I have to say about that.
Randy Johnson?
umm if we didnt need an ace, we should have beat the indians, tigers and/or angels in the last three ALDS’s. The reason we arent winning these five game series is primarily because we dont have an ace and our offense becomes anemic in the post-season. We obviously dont NEED an ace but to really try and prevent another early post-season exit, I want one. And of course pettitte would say that – what is he going to say? I think this team is incapable of winning without a true ace… He will only say the yanks need santana if we trade for him. Then, pettitte will say something like i really think santana brings us a true ace which will certainly help us achieve our goals. Posada already said we need an ace – a rare showing of honesty to the media. Its pretty obvious at this point – i dont need pettitte saying they dont need an ace after watching the last three ALDS.
If Mitchell does not include Manny’s name, is he to be taken seriously? (That question is partially facetious. I don’t know that Manny uses ‘routs, just that he’s a detestable human being.)
If there were sox players on the list, who would it be?
Lowell?
Perhaps Ortiz??
But id be just as happy acquiring Johan next off season rather than being forced to give up Hughes, Chamberlain and/or kennedy for him. That is, if no other team starts bidding on santana further into the off-season. And I dont think it is worth it to give up young arms for one season of santana unless we run the risk of losing out on him entirely. And esp if we lose out on him to the sox who would dominate the division for five yrs with that kind of rotation.
The Twins have an ace – how well did they do over the last 3 year?
Ray–
could not have said it better myself. The guessing of the names has become a parlor game of sorts and IMHO a total waste of time and until we actually see what names are in the report and MORE importantly what threshold Mitchell used to include a specific players name it is all a waste of time.
i thought i heard that at least one player from each team is included in this list. anyone else hear anything like that or am i hearing a bunch of nonsense/rumors?
What are “‘routs”?
” The reason we arent winning these five game series is primarily because we dont have an ace and our offense becomes anemic in the post-season. We obviously dont NEED an ace but to really try and prevent another early post-season exit, I want one.”
But what’s funny is that this year the Yankees lost despite receiving an ACE like performance in game 2 of the series *damn bugs*. Then in game 3 the Yankees won while receiving a very non ace like performance from Roger Clemens. But of course these points are always lost on this board.
In our Dynasty years we didnt have a true ace accept the one year Clemens won C.Y. We had pitchers who performed in the post season and outduled other aces. El duque, Pettite,etc. Most of our staff were like #2 and 3′s. But our depth was what won it. Not just one pitcher.
Look at Houston Astros when they picked up Johnson for that playoff push and ended up going home in the first round.
As far as losing in the first round. If our pitchers and hitters would pitch/HIT to their capabilities we would of done just fine.
I love Wang as a pitcher, but he’s not an ace. Wanger provides more of a 2-3 value for a rotation, which is why if you can get Johan, you’ve got your traditional Ace, #2, and #3 pitchers going into next season, and prob at least through 2009 going forward, if we all agree Pettitte will most likely be back.
I thought Dave Cone was pretty ace-like during our dynasty years.
S.o.S. 27
There have been a lot more than 20 players linked to PEDs, try 64 according to BaseballsSteroidEra (including Clemens & Pettitte)
http://www.baseballssteroidera.....eball.html
Paying a pitcher $20 million a year is frightning considering he isn’t an everyday player.
I promise ill stop with the assumptions and accusation. But I have to throw one last name in their. Pavano,too many injuries not to be on something.
“I love Wang as a pitcher, but he’s not an ace. Wanger provides more of a 2-3 value for a rotation, which is why if you can get Johan, you’ve got your traditional Ace, #2, and #3 pitchers going into next season, and prob at least through 2009 going forward, if we all agree Pettitte will most likely be back.”
Okay, but how many WS did the Twins win when they had an “ace” and a 2/3 pitcher. Zero. This we need an ACE talk has really gotten crazy ever since the Sox won with Beckett.
Aces are often overrated.
The Yankee dynasty proves that depth in the rotation is more important because an ace can’t win a postseason series all by himself.
You’ve got to have capable arms behind your “ace” in case he falls on his face or simply gets outpitched by the other team’s #1.
Think Zito over Santana in 2006 and the awful postseason by Sabathia in 2007.
I didn’t know Bonds is an ”admitted” user.
Anyone else think the timing of Tejada deal was because he will be announced as on the list tomorrow?
as far aces wang being an ace or not, beckett wasn’t an ace in 2006 and then he was in 2007. being an ace changes quickly .
the only thing i would suggest with wang is that if they are going to remake him by having him throw more sliders and 4 seam fastballs, they might want to have the experiment completed before they begin the playoffs.
wang was a mess going into the playoffs because he was in between approaches. he had abandoned the mostly sinker style that had got him to an elite level. i’m not saying he should change or not change his approach;i’m just saying whatever he does, it should be done well before the playoffs start.
Another reason to hate RS Nation and realize their infatuation and inferiority complex with the Yanks…….
http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/b.....soxpax.jsp
Check out paks 2 and 3 (saw this in a Jayson Stark blog on ESPN). Retaliation must be swift and brutal from the Yanks.
“This we need an ACE talk has really gotten crazy ever since the Sox won with Beckett.”
Yup. Cleveland had two aces. How’d that do for them? Oh, right, one vastly underperformed for the whole postseason, and the other had one great game and one poor game.
This postseason especially was a whole-team failure effort, with the exception of Andy, Mo, Hughes and maybe Cano. I think he hit well. But pretty much everyone else underperformed…Wang, Jeter, Arod, Posada, Matsui, Damon (outside of one clutch homer).
did the Twins win a WS even with a true Ace on the team? No, but one single pitcher cannot deliver a WS title, no matter how good they are (and Santana is the best, period.)
do the Yankees NEED an Ace to win a WS? no, but it certainly does more to increase the likelihood they can win it than decrease the odds, doesnt it?
truth is, to say that “even though the Twins have Santana, look how many championships they won” is as valid as saying we NEED an ace to win a WS. they are equally faulty, and the truth lies somewhere in between.
…names from the Mitchell Report are startig to leak:
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
John Giambi
James Giambi
Jermaine Giambi
Tito Giambi
Marlon Giambi
Bubbles “the Chimp” Giambi
Ozzie “Ozzie Canseco” Giambi
…developing story…
rodg12
I am having trouble understanding the insults placed in the ticket packs by the RS. Please explain this to me so I can hate Red Sox nation.
“they are equally faulty, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”
Yes.
The truth is, in my opinion, that regardless of whether they get Santana or not, the Yankee offense needs to start performing like themselves in the post-season. They need to stop playing so tight and start enjoying playing october ball again. They looked like, in every at bat, they were terrified to screw up. All of them. That needs to stop. Hopefully Joe G is the guy that can make that happen.
Look at the team logos…..
D
A
M
NY
“truth is, to say that “even though the Twins have Santana, look how many championships they won†is as valid as saying we NEED an ace to win a WS. they are equally faulty, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”
Actually I think it’s completely valid. It goes against the argument that you need an ace to win the WS when it’s been proven that time an again an doesn’t guarantee you will win the WS.
whozat: it all comes down to simply good hitting pitching will beat good hitting.
over a 162 game season, this offense is world beating and record setting… but in a short series your offense is not going to be able to slug its way through the playoffs.
The yankees may not have an ace but the idea that it was mostly their lack of an ace/ pitching that’s been the reason they’ve lost in the playoffs is a myth.
Here’s what the hitters have done as a team in the last three postseasons:
(Batting average/ on base percentage/ slugging)
2007 Playoffs
.228 .300 .404
2006 Playoffs
.246 .289 .388
2005 Playoffs
.253 .347 .392
This is just atrocious. They haven’t pitched well, especially this past post season, but they have hit at all either.
….proven time and again an ace…
oh no !!!, not Jermaine Giambi
SoS27, I doubt Pavano’s been on anything for two reasons. Number one is that he’s too lazy to get off of his azs to drop his pants to inject anything, and number 2, with his luck, the needle would still be broke of in his azs.
rodg12
Thnx for that. Those Red Sox are just compensating because they are afraid of the Yankees. They never want to face them in the playoffs. This is just a way for them to feel better about themselves.
GreenBeret7
Pavano doesn’t have the toughness to inject himself in the buttocks. He wouldn’t be able to walk or sit down for weeks.
There goes the little bratty brother Bosox bothering their big brother Yankees again. It’s so childish that it’s actually funny to me.
DIEING OF LAUGHTER RIGHT NOW
Pavano could have possibly used the cream like Bonds, applied by some young beautiful starlet.
RODG12,
What’s your point?
ThatWasMe- but then he would cut himself w/ the container
Raymag,
The yanks losing after pettitte performance and then, winning after clemens is obviously the exceptions not the rule. Generally, in five and seven game series, an ace makes a huge impact. And all of the world championship teams have had an ace like performance throughout the season from one of their pitchers. Look at Beckett in 2007 and 2003, Carpenter in 2006, beurhle in 2005, Washburn in 2002, schilling in 2004 and 2001 and Johnson in 2001. You usually need a lights out pitcher on the team to win in the post season – wang is just not lights out enough. We could probably win without Johan but he would solidify our rotation. And with three kids who have never even pitcher more than 160 innings, an innnings eater like Johan wouldnt hurt either.
I think fans look at it this way… if good pitching beats good hitting, and our offense has stunk in the playoffs lately, then why not upgrade our own staff to shut down the other team’s offense like they do to ours.
thats where “we need an Ace” comes from, not because Boston has Josh Beckett.
ThatWasMe, very true. There’s a rumor that Pavano’s dad went to see him and had a talk with him about Carl’s wimpiness. It was strictly a one way conversation.
Carl’s Dad: “Carl, there’s no way you can come from my loins. No way. As soon as I get home, I’m gonna punch your mama in the mouth.”
Thank you, Jackie Gleason.
That’s actually pretty clever. I’m sure that person will be getting a nice little bonus.
Isn’t there a play or song, “Damn Yankees” that has nothing to do with baseball?
I believe it’s a play, maybe now a movie too.
when posada proclaimed that the Yankees needed and ace no one was sure if Andy was coming back. At that point they needed an ace. right now their one two guys had 19 and 15 wins each last season. Andy should really have had at least 18. i would say that is a pretty solid one two punch.
Mel, have you never seen the musical play or movie called “Damn Yankees”?
Mel there was a music group named Damn Yankees.
This is just a way for them to feel better about themselves”
Yeah, because winning the world series two of the last four years probably isn’t doing it.
E-ROC,
I didn’t know Bonds is an â€admitted†user.
In his illegally leaked grand jury testimony, Bonds said he was given what proved to be steroids (the “cream” and the “clear”)from BALCO. He said he wasn’t sure what it was but he thought that it was flax seed oil.
The book was in about 1955 and play ran for years on Broadway. 1958-59 they made it into a movie with Ray Walston, Gwen Verdon and Tab Hunter.
some espn chat excerpts:
RJ(DC): Did the Orioles get a good deal for Tejada? Is Patton any better than a number 3 starter? Couldn’t they have gotten a better deal packaging Tejada and Bedard?
Chris: (2:08 PM ET ) One would think so, but it is what it is. This is what you get when you deal with virtually no depth in their farm system. Patton’s ultimate ceiling really is a No. 2 for me.
————–
Jamie (Utica, NY): Do you think the Yankees will trade Matsui and possibly Mussina to free up money for Johan?
Chris: (2:10 PM ET ) I really don’t see the Twins dealing Santana at this point.
————–
Chris (Staten Island, NY): Jim, several NY media outlets have mentioned the name Daniel McCutchen as someone the Yankees are high on. Judging by his age, numbers and the fact he’s only pitched as high as AA, he looks like a middle reliever at best on paper. What do you think?
Chris: (2:11 PM ET ) They definitely like him and you are correct–middle relief is his likely destination.
————–
MArques Utica, NY : What’s Jose Tabata’s ceiling, higher than Jackson’s?
Chris: (2:20 PM ET ) Ceiling, yes. Body, no. Right now, I think Jackson is more on track to reach his ceiling than Tabata. I like Tabata’s tools, I just have a lot of questions about his weight, the lack of power and how he comes back from the hamate surgery. Not that the hamate thing is that big of a deal, b/c there’s a strong track record of guys coming back–I’m just mildly concerned. And obviously I’m skeptical of Tabata having the makeup and drive to be the best player he’s capable of being.
————–
New England
26 – 7
Advantage NYY
GB&,
Remember, I’m a babe in the woods? (no pun intended there). I saw “Annie” and “Music Man” as a kid. That’s yet. Besides, Madame Butterfly & Carmen or more my style.
GB7,
(Humming) “Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets”.
raymagnetic –
Your point isn’t lost to everyone on this board.
It’s just that, at some point a person gets tired of beating a dead horse. All you need to win a playoff game is to play each particular game better than the other side. Sometimes it means out-hitting them; sometimes it means out-pitching them. There is really no logical reason why the Yankees’ offense has not shown up in the last few post-seasons, really.
Wang’s may not be the perfect definition of a staff “ace,” but he is a guy who the players on the field look forward to playing behind, and who have the feeling they can win behind each and everytime he’s on the mound. So, in my mind, that’s just as good as being an actual ace – your team feels confident when you pitch.
Lola? The only Lola I know is by the Kinks. You young ones out there google it. Great, great lyrics.
Andy doesn’t believe we need Santana, huh? Seeing as he also doesn’t believe in the theory of evolution, or that dinosaurs once walked the earth, I’m gonna take his opinion with a grain of salt.
Here’s a novel idea: how’s about the players and owners refrain from commenting on personnel decisions, at least until Spring Training.
Mel, you can get the disc at Best Buy or Amazon. Worth the price. I have about 20 assorted baseball movies, and, I love ‘em. If you like comedy and cameos of the ’61 Yankees, Mantle, Maris, Berra, get “That Touch Of Mink” with Doris Day and Cary Grant.
I thought that was Carl Everett.
Doreen,
Agree, I’ve brought this up before. No one can define for me what a #1,#2, or #3 starter means yet they throw around these terms as if there is objective criteria.
On last years staff Wang is the guy they wanted on the mound for critical games, therefore, he is the staff ace. Granted he did not pitch well but that does not mean he will do so in the future.
Anyone who wants to argue can but he was the best pitcher on the staff the last two years and one of the best in the league period.
everyone is talking about ace, this and that, playoffs…blah, blah….the cy younger winner this year gave a horrible performance in the first game of the playoffs this year. Yanks should have beat him that game. he gave up 5 runs..Roger Clemens doesn’t have the most stellar post season numbers, yet he will go down as one of the best pitchers to ever play the game. Did Wang stink in the playoffs? yeah he did, but he went into a slump at a bad time. The dude was awesome this year and with out his 19 wins yanks wouldn’t even be in the playoffs.
sandman…
Really? That’s what you’re coming back with? I find you funny. Funny like the Wang is an ace argument.
Count the Rings Bitch!
Great counter.
Ah, Damn Yankees. It was about baseball. It was specifically about how the Yankees were so dominant, a fan of the Washington Senators, who happens to be an older married man, sells his soul to the devil in order for his team to beat the Yankees.
I hate the musical. Because basically the guy, Joe Hardy, gets his wish and disappears, leaving his wife to wonder what she did to drive him away. Then he comes back – his team wins, he gets out of the deal with the devil, and his wife takes him back, APOLOGIZING for making him leave (he never tells her what actually happened.)
So aside from some good songs (Whatever Lola Wants, and You Gotta Have Heart, to name 2) – it’s an awful, 1950′s male-ego-boosting show that demeans the value of women. Even Lola was an ugly woman who sold HER soul to the devil in order to be beautiful.
Other than than, Bebe Neuwirth played Lola in the most recent Broadway revival, and Victor Garber was excellent as the devil.
While I agree that the Yanks offense hasn’t exactly been lighting up the scoreboard the last few postseasons, it is the starting pitching that has been this team’s downfall more than anything else.
Since 2005, Yankee starting pitchers have compiled a robust 6.31 ERA while averaging a putrid 4.2 IP per start (spanning 13 games).
Granted, the offense was nonexistent in Game 2 while Pettitte kept them in the game, but he has been the exception in recent years. The offense was doing okay in Game 1 against Sabathia until Wang got hammered in the middle innings and blew the game wide open. Wang didn’t give the offense a chance to do anything in Game 4 because he got hammered from the get-go.
The offense’s approach is going to be greatly affected when your team’s starter gets pounded early and you’re continuously playing from behind against good pitching.
Mel,
I am a big Ray Davies fan. The Kinks were a much under-appreciated band. They paved the way for all the great 80′s folks like Elvis Costello, The Police, The Clash, et al.
YanksRule57,
Kind of makes you feel old. Until you remember that Keith Richards and Mick Jagger’s corpes are still walking the face of the earth. haha
I just heard that Carl Pavano got hurt looking at the Mitchell report…
Mel,
Wow, harsh review of Damn Yankees. I may need to watch it again for perspective. That was very good though. You sounded just like one of my favorite feminist authors (it’s not a long list)Camille Paglia.
Mel -
Ohmigosh- you just cracked me up about Mick Jagger and Keith Richards being corpses! They are scar-y.
Yanksrule57
That was my review of Damn Yankes, thank you very much!
mel,
As long as Keith can keep going to Switzerland to have his blood changed out every few years he may live forever.
Lyrics To Whatever Lola Wants, Lola Gets
________________________________________________________
[LOLA]
Whatever Lola wants
Lola gets
And little man, little Lola wants you
Amke up your mind to have no regrets
Recline yourself, resign yourself, you’re through
I always get what I aim for
And your heart’n soul is what I came for
Whatever Lola wants
Lola gets,
Take off your coat
Don’t you know you can’t win?
You’re no exception to the rule,
I’m irresistible, you fool, give in!…Give in!…Give in!
Hello, Joe
It’s me
He hits so far
-hold on-that’s you
Aaah-haaaaaa
Poo poo pa doop
Peek-a-boo
Yoo-hoo
I always get what I aim for
And you heart’n soul is what I came for
…Lola wants
…Lola gets
…You’ll never win
I’m irresistible, you fool,
Give in…Give in…Give in.
I agree that the starting pitching has been their primary problem in the post season.
But it is far from their only problem and much of this we need an ace conversation assumes that if the team does get an ace then playoff success would naturally follow.
Having a guy like Santana would be enormous for the playoffs.
That said – something has gone completely off kilter with this team’s hitter since game 4 of 2004.
For the past three years they’ve had a team OPS significantly greater than 0.800 for the regular season. In the playoffs it is around .700. This can’t only be explained by the better pitching hitters see in the playoffs.
Good pitching does beat good hitting. I’m sure the poor performance of the yankee starters puts more pressure on the hitters in the post season.
But something else is going on – because it is an entirely different offense in the post season. An offense that doesn’t come up with hits with runners in scoring position, in particular.
Well, sure Doreen….just tell it from the woman’s point of view. Lola was a hottie, but, Joe was true to the Old Ball And Chain back home..
The Kinks’ Lola (Laughing out loud again)
Mel, saw the Kinks in 1970 over in Boston at the Boston Tea Party, a night club, it was close to Fenway.
GreenBeret7,
Joe did not “give in” to Lola, but he did not tell his wife what happened. He allowed her to think she was at fault. He even had the nerve to take up room and board in his own home – saw how his wife was suffering – but decided that the Senators were too close to beating the Yankees to end the deal with the devil right then. It’s just wrong.
And she was not a ball and chain! In the very first song in the show – “Six Months Out of Every Year” – the wives of the baseball fans lament how they are ignored for the entire baseball season, no matter what they do, but yet they praised their husbands for how they were the other 6 months. It’s very 1950′s in that regard. As long as he’s not out with other women, it’s okay that they’re ignoring their wives.
I’ve tried to lighten up about this show, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Oh, the other female character is a reporter who is a real b-*-*-ch.
new england
Yes that was my counter, you were talking about the past, so I offered a comprehensive view of the past, an indisputable one at that. If you want to argue the future, that’s cool, but facts can’t be debated.
Man, ThatWasMe. You gotta be the oldest poster around. You was at the Boston Tea Party? Did you guys really dress up like Indians?
Mel -
I’ve always wondered about the last two lines of that song. Is it a double entendre?
If anyone is bored on a slow-ish day, Pete, Keith Law and Chad Jennings were all kind enough to give their opinions on Joba possibly returning to the pen over at http://www.nysportsfan.org
Doreen, if you had ever seen those Senators, you’d have done whatever you could to help ‘em. Not only couldn’t the play baseball, but, they couldn’t sing, either.
GB7-
Thanks for the laugh!
Please tell me how ..
“To say we need (Santana) to be successful, that’s hard for me to say.—
Translates to..
Petitte: We don’t need Santana
And what team player is going to say, “We need Santana” uh, no one. Then if you don’t get him, you look like an *ss especially when you begin to lose.
I’ll let you Montreal Expo’s experts keep talking on this blog.. you are the same people that cut Arod’s throat when opted out.
Wow, have some integrity, please.
ThatWasYou,
That was a little before my time, so for you to see them live and not corpse-y is so cool.
I love the music the kids listen to now, but it’s sad there are no really good rock groups. I mean, you basically only have Nickleback. Do they even count?
My pleasure, Doreen
Pettitte is on the Mitchell Report
Andy Andy
Doreen,
Think “Crying Game”. Does anyone remember that movie? Top 10 movie IMO.
Anybody who’s anybody will be informed if they are in the report.
Clubs are going to keep their guys no matter what. Look at Jose Guillen.
The Yanks couldn’t or can’t manufacture runs in the playoffs, for some unknown reasons.
good pitching beats good hitting.
Mel -
Thought so.
Somebody better be more concerned about Ortiz and Ramirez. And, a closer look at the size of that melon on Youkilis’ shoulders, it didn’t get that way from bobbin’ for apples.
Also, the bulk of the report is said to be based on the testimony of the guy from the Mets clubhouse. Unless players were in the clubhouse when he was there or players left a paper trail, it’s most likely to be hearsay.
Bryan got a source on that?
jennifer,
I think he just smoked the last of it.
“The offense was doing okay in Game 1 against Sabathia until Wang got hammered in the middle innings and blew the game wide open.”
That’s not true…he walked a HORDE of guys and was behind everyone. That’s exactly the kind of pitcher the Yankees are built to DESTROY, and they didn’t. Whether it was because Wang put them behind early and that set them on their heels, I don’t know.
I’m telling you, no current Sux will on that list. Nomar, Kapler, maybe.
yanklifer – I saw Pete and Chad’s opinions there and enjoyed reading them. Thanks for the link. But, I didn’t see an opinion offered by Keith Law.
GB7,
Someone mentioned it earlier; ever seen the melon that is Kevin Mench’s head? That boy’s head dun blowed up!
Check that, found it in the Comments Section of the post….I agree with them that Joba is more valuable in the rotation and that’s where the Yanks should put him.
FYI, the Giants have supposedly signed Aaron Rowand to play center field — it’s being teased on their flagship sports talk station right now and Bruce Boche will be appearing with the 12-3 hosts in about 10 minutes.
Does this mean the Giants are more/less likely to want a corner outfielder, such as Alex Rios or Hideki Matsui, to compliment Rowand? Only time will tell.
Sometimes I get the feeling that true baseball fans aren’t on this blog nearly as much as soap-opera watchers with an opinion.
If I offended you with that, your probably one of the ones I am talking about… Carry on.
BoSox on the list. Kapler, Jeremy Giambi, Paxton Crawford, Mo Vaughn, Manny Alexander, and about a 5% chance of Trot Nixon
YanksRule57, Mench’s dad has a huge melon, too. Kevin’s always had the biggest hat size in baseball. Bonds just has the biggest swelled head.
Nick in SF , if that’s true Hideki is your next OF because Rowand wouldn’t sign for rebuilding
Nick,
If you’re Alex Rios, would you be happy with a trade to SF? You have a nice park (no carpet), nice lifestyle. But you leave behind a decent Toronto team and Yankee pitching.
Joba to the bullpen is insanity…’nuff said…
Fleas,
I enough to know I don’t know very much. That’s why I appreciate the passion of the fans here. Especially grateful to the “real” fans who dig deep into the farm system and share what they know about the Yankee prospects.
It absolutely is true. Check the box score.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/ps/y200.....b_clemlb_1
It was 4-3 in the middle of the 5th inning with Sabathia reeling and the Yankee bats were coming to life – scoring a run in both the 4th and 5th.
The Tribe put up a 5-spot against Wang in the Bot 5th and blew the game wide open. It could have been a completely different outcome had Wang simply kept his team in the game.
An offense’s approach is going to be much different in a 9-3 game as opposed to a 4-3 game.
How about you, Fleas. Do you prefer soap operas like the one you’re trying to get going or cartoons?
OMG. **I know enough to know I don’t know very much**
The Tejada trade shows you how tough its going to be for anybody to complete trades for Santana or Matsui.
The Orioles get 5 players for a guy who is clearly a shell of his former self (as a player).
If you are the Twins, how do you settle for less for Santana?
If you are the Yankees, how do you settle for less for a guy who is a better offensive player (at this point in their respective careers) than Tejada.
Its why, despite all the daily rumors, no deals are taking place.
Everybody is holding firm to what they percieve are their best prospects.
yes, Rowand would absolutely sign for rebuilding if the Giants were the only team offering him a 5 year contract for the money he was looking for. He had a career year during the walk year on his contract, and if he didnt cash in now, chance is that he’s not seeing the opportunity for that money again.
IMO, the Giants will trade for Matsui if they arent required to give up Cain or Lincecum. i think its that simple… i dont think getting Rowand or not getting Rowand has anything to do with getting Matsui.
Hey guys. Hope everyone’s day is going well. Just got back from the Stadium where I got 4 vouchers at the food drive thing. (I didn’t bring 100 lbs of food. You get 1 voucher for every $25.) Anyway, there was a guy there who is friends with Mr. Steinbrenner. He was in the team store while I was shopping. He was talking about how the Boss is unhappy with the Mets recent success. When he left, the employees told us that he and George are always together when George is @ the Stadium, so he obviously knew what he was talking about. Thought that was kind of interesting. Again, hope you all are doing well. I’m in kind of a sports rut so I’m going to MSG tonight for the Knicks game. Should be… interesting. : )
Boche hasn’t come on yet, no details about the terms of the contract, but I’m going to guess that Aaron Rowand is coming to the Giants for roughly the same reason that Zito did last year: they offered him the most money, possibly by a lot. So I really doubt that he chose the Giants because he thought/was told that Matsui or Rios would be there too.
As for whether Rios would be happy to go to SF, I don’t know/think he has a NT clause, so I don’t think that’s much of a factor.
And Brandon, if Hideki is MY next outfielder, that means he’s staying in NY — I’m not a Giants fan, just a Yankee fan living in SF.
Ava, can’t imagine The Boss still being upset over the Mets recent success. 20 years is a long time to be unhappy.
Ava,
Well, the guy was lying. Obviously, cuz the Mets haven’t been a success lately.
Just kidding. I’m sure you meant to point out that George is lucid, right?
mel,
I was not talking about you.. you never bother me. What I said was directed at others (and they know who they are).
Sorry if I offended you.
mel, that’s what I found interesting. Mets? Success? Did George not notice their meltdown? The poor guy is way out of it.
Also, living in Manhattan, you get a lot of people saying they know Yankees players or ownership or whatever, but I was inclined to believe this guy because all of the employees knew him and said they had seen George with him. And he got everything he bought for free. So…
I am so bored at work today, so I have been googling Yankee’s arial views of their homes with google maps. Funny..
I am trying to figure out who lives the closest to me in any direction. It appears that it would be George Steinbrenner that is the closest at 1hr and 2 minutes away.
Jeter lives 1hr 17minutes away.
*cough.. Johan Santana lives 1hr and 36mintes away, but the other direction..
I could get really carried away here!
Seems to me that Wang’s end-of-year outings did not always go so well. For a ground ball pitcher, he didn’t get many – especially when he needed them. I remember wondering at the time if he was injured (blister? finger nail?). Yes he could certainly be a stud, but just because your turn came up to pitch doesn’t mean it’s a given. Anybody else wonder?
i’m not convinced the wanger is an ” ace ” ,
was pettitte ever an ace ?
what the hell ?
like I was trying to say Nick in SF that goes for whether your NYY fan or SF fan living in SF, Sabean signing Rowand is a win now move, most likely he is targeting Matsui now since he would protect a batter in that lineup
Fleas –
How do you have their addresses? Or are you just zooming in on a general vicinity?
Five year deal for Rowand with the Giants. Absolutely nuts.
These teams never learn. Just because you have the money, doesn’t mean you have to spend it.
To tie up 5 years of money on Aaron Rowand makes zero sense. He’s not that good.
He certainly isn’t going to change the Giants, that’s for sure.
Its their money and not mine but, that’s just crazy.
STALKER
SJ44 –
The only question I would have is about the quality of those 5 players.
But, yeah, no doubt a team (Minny) is gonna look at number of players involved and say, yeah, I deserve at least that!
Doreen,
I have almost all their addresses
Lets take a poll:
Who has the worst job here?
I believe that would be me.
The true “Ace” of a pitching staff is the pitcher that takes the ball the day of any game. The so-called No. 1 pitcher may or may not be the pitcher that opens a series in the regular season depending on the schedule, injuries, travel, postponements, or the All Star break.
The No. 5 starter is every bit as important as the No. 1 starter. A win is a win.
Playoff scenarios are entirely different. Reports contribute more heavily.
“Good pitching does beat good hitting. I’m sure the poor performance of the yankee starters puts more pressure on the hitters in the post season.”
A good pitcher can have a bad day.
A perfect pitch can get bested by good hitting.
With that said, i feel that good pitching (not necessarily pitchers), beats good hitters (not necessarily hitting).
A average pitcher can be lights out if all his stuff is on any given day, and that includes the playoffs.
Am back from the best lucnch I’ve had all semester.
I miss much?
Fleas,
I wasn’t offended at all. I know I go off on tangents, but I still love me Yankees.
And I meant what I said about people here bringing our attention to kids we don’t even know about. I mean, they’re talking about kids playing in the DR and instructionals. They’re letting us know who’s in the next wave of pitchers. The scope and depth of what they know is beyond what I have energy for. So for them to come here and summarize and give us “Baseball for Dummies” is good for me.
Now I can live without the drama. Enough of Pavano, Yankee fans arguing just to argue, and “the sky is falling” because the Red Sox might get Santana.
Aaron Rowand signs for 5 years with San Francisco.
not much…Fleas is a part time stalker
One positive thing with Santana going to the Sux…
We can finally be the underdogs!
No more ungodly expectations that seem to just overwhelm the yankees with immeasurable pressure.
here’s one..
Guess who’s house this is??
http://web.mac.com/mikeisgreat/Site/Blank.html
Win a prize.. err, uh.. help me pass time?
Fukudome to the Cubs for 4 years/48 million, Kuroda to the Dodgers for 3 years/30 million, and Tejada to the Astros for 5 players
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3152201
Looks like we keep Godzilla !
JOBA LIVES THERE ???
Mel
Led Zeppelin was live last night in London. Saw then in Schenectady in 1969 in a converted bowling alley. Hope they go on tour. I agree not much out there to compare. Jimmy Page with his 6/12 string double neck guitar.
Fleas
Why collect Yankee adresses? A bit strange.
Flam,
What’s your job?
Can’t be worse than:
-Mets clubhouse guy
-Pavano’s personal trainer
-Giambi’s laundry guy
-Youkilis’s waxer
-Bartolo Colon’s barber
-Big Papi’s glove holder
-Jorge’s bat holder
I’ll give a hint, Mike Mussina’s house is within walking distance of the house in that pictures..
even bigger hint, the street name is.. “CANDELEDA DE AVILA
TAMPA, FL” (house number withheld for obvious reasons)
DVB, *BEEP* wrong.. not Joba.
Signing Aaron Rowand is a win now move? Well, no, not unless you mean that as in a win-70-games-now move. They let Bonds go. They know they’re not going to win now. Which is also why I don’t think they’ll give up anything significant (ie: Cain or Lincecum) to get Matsui, unless one believes that hype that his nationality would being a tsunami of Asian fans to the ballpark.
Personally, I think the Giants will end up keeping Cain and Lincecum to start the 2008 season, or at least not trade either to NY, so forget about either of them in pinstripes to start the season.
The sky will fall if the Red Sox get Santana.
But they won’t,they want to just make sure the Yankees don’t get him.Because with all this talking you here the Red Sox still didn’t say anything of “DEAL”.I believe it’s just the Mets and Yankees.Thats it.
Dodgers,Diamondbacks have better Farms but ain’t paying Santana $25 million.And it seems Hank isd really running the show so we still can get him.Which will make our rotation better then the Red Sox and most of the AL>
like I said Sabean signing Rowand for 5 years is a win now move, most likely he is targeting Matsui now since he would protect a batter in that lineup
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3152201
Looks like we keep Godzilla !
Actually, I think this means that Sabean will have to make another move for a power bat. 1 hitter will not solve that lineup, and Sabean knows this better than anyone.
I think Joba still lives in an apartment. The arrow’s pointed at the street. Barry Bonds?
SF had to make a signing like Rowland. That team is a step below an expansion team in the starting 9.
You add pieces like Rowland and a Rios or Matsui to the OF and they at least have the makings of a 3-4 hitters which they currently don’t possess.
Before the Rowland signing the 3-4 hitters were probably Vizquel and Bengie Molina.
They’ve clearly paid for the dance with the devil, i.e. Bonds. It’s an organization that is bereft of positional players on the major league and minor league level.
I’m surprised Sabean still has the job.
I hope the Yanks don’t give up Matsui for pennies on the dollar. We’ve never been a salary dump team of a productive player.
I know it’s crazy, but I actually think the Yanks should trade Matsui, Igawa, Pavano and a Karstens/Rasner type for Zito and this Sanchez LH reliever.
If they take on the 13 million remaining in the Pavano contract, the 4-5 million a year to Igawa remaining and Matsui’s 26 million, we should take on Zito’s mistake contract.
Zito’s pitched in the AL before, he eats up innings and he’s a LH who could thrive in the stadium. He’ll beat most AL teams with the Yankee offense behind him.
Yeah, the Red Sox and Tigers will use him for batting practice once in awhile, but maybe the big stage here would bring out the best in him.
I know I’ll get slammed for suggesting it, but I’d do it if SF would take some of that dead money and dead 40 man roster weight back.
1) Isn’t collecting addresses a *bit* stalkerish?
2) Well, SF does need an outfielder…but have they learned NOTHING?!
Sandman,
According to Curt Shilling he believes that the Sox will land Santana without question.
Also said in the same article, that if that happens the Sox will have a “historically dominant rotation” for years to come.
Sabean said himself in an interview that one bat will not fix the lineup, and they woudl need more to even be able to contend. so yes, they will still go after Matsui. To what extent is the question.
Rebecca
“1) Isn’t collecting addresses a *bit* stalkerish?”
Uhm, I am on the internet, not in front of their houses.. so I guess I am guilty of being a stalker with regards to google maps?
Rebecca
Not as strange as staring at their rooftops.
If anyone cares, that happens to be good ‘ole #2′s rooftop.
Derek Jeter??
ooooooooh.
sounds stalkerish
Well…I mean….it’s not something you see every day
(Google maps is SO addicting, though!)
That makes sense. A single guy doesn’t need a very big house. It doesn’t even look lived in. Is Jeter even a Florida resident? He sure does spend an a lot of time in New York. lol.
I think this makes it much less likely for Matsui to get traded.
This isn’t a “win now” move for San Francisco. They are horrible – Sabean knows that. Even two bats aren’t going to make them competative.
This was a move to save some face for the organization – to say we did something to improve the lineup in the off season after losing bonds.
It also saves them from having to trade pitching. Now they won’t feel the need to make a Lincecum for Rios trade just to say they have one professional hitter in the line up.
This wasn’t a signing to win now – it was a signing to try to fight off complete humiliation. The Giants have a team that’s in some ways worse than a AAA team because its not only bad – its old.
Rowland is coming off a career year in a walk season. His only concern was scoring a five year deal. That’s its in a great geographic region – even better. That the team stinks – well you can’t have everything. Rowland is not the kind of star who can dictate everything on his terms.
This signing is just window dressing by the Giants. Its will be a very bad move long term. Just when they are getting better behind that young pitching they’ll have Rowland and Zito hanging around their necks.
I’m guessing the Giants next signing will be Feliz.
CB…. I can buy that reason. But this move isn’t going to save Sabeans job. He might as well trade Lincecum to us for Matsui. =) Straight up no less.
P.S. Who says that Yankees and Giants were talking about a trade involving Matsui and Lincecum/Cain? If the Yankees were willing to do a deal not involving those two, then i would think the Giants would definitely still be interested in Matsui.
If Matsui were dealt and Melky was involved in a Santana deal, Aaron Rowand in a 3-year deal would have been a good fit until Gardner or A-Jax were ready. Rowand could then have been a corner OF.
Too late now…
Jeter just got in trouble with the tax man for claiming his primary resident is in Tampa (that picture) since Tampa is lower taxes then his NY condo in Trump Towers.
I added #13′s arial to that page
http://web.mac.com/mikeisgreat/Site/Blank.html
take a look at the size difference of his house
He even bought the lot door to build his tennis court..
The wang is an ace argument isnt ridiculous but no one could ever convince me that the yanks shouldnt be in the running to get santana if their is the sox are on the verge of getting him. If not, of course, hold off on giving up prospects and try your best to sign him next yr. But he would certainly be a HUGE asset to the yanks in the post-season – who cares what the definition of an ace or two or three pitcher is? The point is that we need someone starting two games of a five and two or three games of a seven game series that have filthy stuff. Joba or Hughes can be that guy. But santana already is that guy. And Johan doesnt have the record to prove it but he has pitched well in the playoffs and his stuff is the best in baseball.
Brandon,
An aspiring sports beat writer should be able to track down where athletes live.. if that is stalker-ish, oh well. Sorry your unable to have fun with it.
Looks like they’re still working on Jete’s house in that satellite photo, so it might look different now.
“Frisco now feels the need to have Matsui. Pitchers will pitch around Rowand without any protection.
Fleas sorry to break it to you but the last thing an aspiring sports beat writer is doing is tracking down where a player lives, they could care less their exact address. Making contacts and developing relationships with said players, agent or other representativesis more likely what they are doing.
Fleas: Actually staking out players is considered rude and infringing on privacy.
thanks fleas. good time killer for my last hour here…
everyone keeps saying that I would rather have 3 rookies than 1 known ace..
where does that come from?
If we traded hughes, melky, horne, [insert 4rth]
would that not mean that we would have
santana, joba, kennedy?
have to say it (even though I love hughes) if I can trade Hughes, Melky, Horne and a fourth B prospect.. ESPECIALLY, if that keep Santana away from the Sox..
I am doing it. PERIOD!
I agree Dave.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting different results…
Gayle,
It’s called investigative reporting.. ever heard of it?
I am what’s called, “Doing footwork”.
And if accessing public information over the internet is considered stalking, you might want to cry to your government on why this information is available to the public.
I guess, obtaining an athletes phone number and actually calling them for an interview would be considered murder according to you folks.
Geez, relax a little and have fun.
Guys im sticking to my story. Pavano is on the tomorrows list. Explain to me how he hurt his buttox if he wasnt trying to inject something in it? Now do you believe me.I rest my case.
Hurt buttox=INJECTING ROIDS
Saucy,
Your welcome.
Fleas, I think the problem with not wanting to add more to the package is because of the fact that the Yankees were basically bidding against themselves.
The Yankees add Hughes, the Sux swap their package (back to original one), the Twins ask for the Yankees to add Kennedy, the Sux swap their package again, the Twins ask for Horne and Tabata/Jackson.
I mean give me a freakin break. I dont think Hank is the type of person who likes to get played by other teams, and thats probably why he dropped out of the bidding. Thats not to say that the original offer of Hughes, Melky, + others is not still on the table.
Everyone mentions bad signings and bad trades he has made, but can anyone mention a non-trade that came back to haunt him? I can’t.
One thing about the internet, and remember this.. “No one actually knows who you are”. Unless of course you decide to make it known.
We supposedly have a ton of good pitching (granted half of them are recovering from TJ) so I wish we could send them 3 really good, non-Big 3, high-ceiling prospects + 1 OF for Santana.
Minnesota lost 6 players in the Rule 5 draft. 4 of the 6 were right-hand pitchers.
I know that’s wishful thinking, but still…
Nick in SF….
Dave Roberts and Randy Wynn are both signed with SF through 2009. If they go after Rios or Matsui, what do they do with Roberts/Wynn..they’re not exactly bench players with their salaries.Signing Rowland means SF will have to hit 3 singles to score a run…..no power at all.
Brian So Cal Yankee Fan
“Led Zeppelin was live last night in London. Saw then in Schenectady in 1969 in a converted bowling alley.”
ThatWasMe:
None other than the fabulous AERODROME! Great night spot – featured Acts like: Jimmy Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jimmy Page, Vanilla Fudge, Jefferson Airplane, a young Billy Joel (known as the Piano Man), The Buckinghams, BB King, BJ Thomas, and The Doors.
I thought Dave Roberts was non-tendered?
Fleas if one of these days you so happen to appear on the channel 11 news it’s been nice knowing you
Good for the Twins. I hope they lose more in the Rule 5 next year!
G Love-Barry Zito. With whatever left on that mistake of a contract, the Giants would have to throw in Cain, Sanchez and Wilson, then take Giambi, Farnsworth, Mussina off our hands, plus throw in cash to make Zitos contract worth no more than 11-12M/year!!
mel:
I wish the same every day. However, the Deal starts with Hughes and would end without him.
JT from NYC:
I agree. You have to know when to hold ‘em. They have done a good job playing poker here without question. Such a good job, that they even have many Twins fans upset thinking that Smith might have over-played his hand.
Possible, but when you have what Smith has in his pocket ( “Santana” ).. you seem to be holding the Joker…
I still want Santana, and now that I have had time to calm my emotional self.. I feel even stronger that we *MUST* obtain Santana. That doesn’t mean I am for trading both Phil and Ian, but it does mean that we need him, and we need him even worse if the Sox are serious about getting him. Make no mistake they are!
People are getting a little wrapped up in three young starters on the staff of a contender. Last year, the Yankees won 94 games with a collection of 10 rookies that were at best AA pitchers, including the ones what were rushed through the system. They accounted for 40% of the starts. The team the Yanks take into the season doesn’t have the same bench nor do they have rotation as the first half of last season. The real key is the bullpen, not the rotation. It’s going to be a lot younger. There’s enough to mix and match until the three real bullpen studs come up, hopefully by the AS break. They’ll be just fine, and, there isn’t a day-to-day lineup that can match it. Detroit can come pretty close, but, I’m not worried about Detroit. They have some serious pitching issues of their own.
Fleas if you consider trying to find out where players live and what there houses look like investigative reporting then be my guest. What job you are going after is not a “beat reporter” but a paparazzi/stalker reporter for online publications like TMZ, Gawker etc. Two very different kinds of reporting.
hey everyone has to make a living , doesnt make it right.
Dave Roberts…am I confusing him with the dude on the Orioles?
Yes, yes I am. Okay then.
GB7,
Still can’t believe they sent away Adam Miller. Wasn’t he like their Hughes, Lincecum, Laptop?
“But this move isn’t going to save Sabeans job.”
Sabean doesn’t need to save his job. It’s safe.
Sabean was given a contract extension this summer for two years. His deal now runs through 2009 with a club option for 2010.
This year when the giants announced they weren’t bringing bonds back McGowan also announced that Sabean was coming back. Sabean pretty much said that the team was going to have to rebuilt.
As amazing as it is McGowan entrusted Sabean to do the rebuilding.
This is what McGowan said:
“When you look at Brian’s body of work over his 11 seasons with the Giants, it’s evident that he is a shrewd baseball man who will find a way to get this team back to where we all want it to be,” said Magowan. “While we are certainly disappointed with the way that things have gone this season, I’m fully confident that Brian and Bruce (Bochy) will get us back on the right track.”
Things change quickly but mcgowan is not the kind of guy who is going to give a guy an extension then fire him so he has to pay him for no reason.
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.....38;c_id=sf
Ok this made my day. Guess what pitcher has been invited to Dodgers Spring training camp? Hint he is a former Yankee? HInt he is a relief pitcher. Got it yet……
the ONE and ONLY Right hander Tanyon Sturtze.Guess some people never learn.
We all tend to forget that the Yankees had the best record after the all star break. That along with the fact that our team is built to beat the Red Sox (unfortunately we werent built to beat the Indians), im not too concerned about getting Santana, although that would change if the Sux get him (let’s pray the mets can step up for us yankee fans).
Our major issue is our bullpen. Without Joba as a setup man, we can be losing alot of potential wins.
Mel come on Laptop a little immature if you ask me
Laptop
Latham Joe
You got it the Aerodrome, great light show. You forgot Jeff Beck. BTW about ten years ago I caught Warren Zevon at the club in Latham on 9 next to the River. Stood right in front of him, what a great show. He did them all. I know I’m old, 61 in March, still love rock and roll and the Yankees.
Yankee Trader,
I hear you, but if you could trade 59 million of salary in Matsui, Pavano and Igawa (I think that’s what the 3 of them add up to long term combined) for 112 million of Zito, which in essence means we’re getting 6 years of Zito for 50 some odd million, wouldn’t you consider it?
Pavano and Igawa are dead money. They take up roster space we need for other players.
Including Matsui (and a Rasner/Karstens type) could get them to give up their overpriced bad contract starter and the LH in the pen we need in Sanchez.
Zito would be a productive starter and keep a lefty presence in the rotation and he’s 29.
He’s not a #1, but he’s somewhere between a 2-4 depending on which Zito shows up that season.
It’s just an idea since I know we are not getting Cain or Licencum for Matsui and I want nothing to do with Lowry.
gayle has he accepted
Green Beret 7-
Good points. I’m still not convinced that our bullpen is strong enough to start the season, and remember Rivera has started off slowly, and had one of his highest ERA’s as a consequence. If the bullpen falters the first few months of the season, the Yankees will be faced with the same uphill climb they had last year after the All Star break. Another solid starter,who has pitched 200 innings before [i.e. Santana, Cain] would allow Joba to start the season as Rivera’s set-up guy and occasionally close games himself. Yes I’d like to see Joba as a starter, but perhaps now is not the best time.
Yes, he was Mel Miller was their best pitching prospect, like Hughes/Linecum and Maybin was a more talented version of Austin Jackson (Maybin’s first MLB homer was in his 2nd game against Clemens).
One “expert”, Neyer doesn’t think that Santana’s going anywhere at this point.
Which kind of makes sense. If you believe Bill Smith botched the deal, then he may just keep Santana and pretend that was the plan all along.
Best-case, Santana hits free agency.
Trader, the Yankee bullpen could go from same as last year or, if the three in front of Rivera are good, not great, the bullpen will miles ahead of last year. I don’t think Farnsworth will be on the team, especialy if they can get somebody like Marte or Grabow. Not to say trading Farnsworth for one of them, though.
Pete’s chiming in on Wang v. Beckett…new post
G Love-
Even with Rowand, the Giants still need power threats as their leading HR hitter, not named Bonds, was Molina at 19 homers.
Yankees, if the Giants still want Matsui, should put a package together to net them Cain or Lincecum, but I prefer Cain, based on concerns about Lincecum and his pitching mechanics and small frame.There is absolutely no one else on that Giant roster worth giving up Matsui for, even if they throw us 5 players ala the Tejada deal.
Trader, putting Chamberlain in the pen won’t help him build his steps to increased innings, though. He’s not somebody you want to keep switching back and forth in the middle of the season two years in a row. It would take two more years to get his innings up high enough to cut him lose for 200 innings and 34-35 starts a year. It would make it 2010.
Classic post!!
Can I add a few names as well?
Moises Alou-bat holder
Arods-shrink
Pedro and Manny’s-barber
Schillings-laundry guy
Sosa’s-batboy
Whatya think?Any?
Umm.
Uranium for sale on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....dp_product
Green Beret7-
No for Grabow, Marte a yes, but no rumors that Pirates want to make a deal for him now.
Please list the 6-7 or even 8 bullpen pitchers assuming these 5 starters:
Wang
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Mussina
Hughes
Got this from the site referred to earlier about Joba:
“It’s tough to imagine the #5 prospect according to MiLB being “just” a reliever, but that’s where I think Joba should be in ’08. He is as dominant as it gets out of the bullpen and that has been proven at the Major League level. And I don’t want to read too much into minor league numbers, but he was human in AA, where he gave up 4 HRs over 7 starts with a 3.35 ERA, not to mention 15 walks over 40 IP.
Personally, I think the Yankees will ultimately reach the same conclusion (and may already have, there’s just no reason to announce it publicly). One final point as to why I feel this is how it will all play out is the number of innings that Joba pitched last year: roughly 90. As a result of that, the Yankees would never extend him to anywhere more than 150 IP in ’08. As a starter he would reach that plateau no later than mid-August and would be done for the year; as a reliever he could mirror Mariano’s 1996 season, pitch 110 regular season innings and then pile on another 20 IP in the postseason, before making the transition to 180 IP as a starter in ’09, if need be.
Working backwards, with Mariano pitching the 9th with a lead, Joba pitching the 8th (and often some or all of the 7th) in close games, and Farnsworth/Hawkins and a TBD lefty specialist bridging the gap in the 6th and 7th, I believe our ’08 bullpen can actually be one of our strengths. Take Joba and his 110 relief innings out of that equation though and it is a recipe for disaster.
I completely see this guy’s point…. (if Joba was deemed a starter why not put him in the rotation to begin with anyway in 07?) It’s not like we could not have used a starter last year too. Hmmm….it’s such a GREAT problem to have. Can’t wait for 08 to start.
ey! my dear Andy We love you but you need respect a little bit a Johan he is Great and of course we need him!