Wang deserves a better review
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- December
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It’s interesting how 5.2 innings against Cleveland in October turned Chien-Ming Wang into a bum in the eyes of some.
Andy Pettitte went to bat for the Wanger today. But many comments and e-mail disagreed. One guy wrote to tell me that “Wang had a terrible second half.” Well, he was 10-3, 4.07 after the break, 3-1, 3.27 in September.
Another e-mailer (presumably somebody taking a break from their afternoon six-pack in Boston), wrote to say how Beckett “is twice as good as Wang.” Beckett was 20-7, 3.27; Wang was 19-7, 3.70. That’s twice as good?
Is Beckett better than Wang? He was in 2007. He wasn’t in 2006. Wang will be entering only his third full season in the majors in 2008 and for the first time will be using more than two pitches on a regular basis. Can we wait a bit before deciding what he is or isn’t?
Wang, I think, is a victim of himself. He’s quiet, unemotional and rarely does televised interviews because he speaks English as a second language. He also isn’t a strikeout pitcher.
If Wang threw more four-seam fastballs, struck out a few more scrubs and pumped his fist once in a while, I suspect people would like him more. It’s kind of silly.
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on Wednesday, December 12th, 2007 at 5:06 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
agreed
The Wanger rules. I’m sick of people abusing him because of the playoffs. Crap happens. The guy wins games. That’s the only thing that matters. I could care less if he strikes ‘em out, gets ground out, or gets them on fly outs. He knows how to pitch.
Great post Pete.
Lots of posters and commenters are too busy throwing Wang under the bus to remember that Beckett was nowhere near Wang’s level in 2006, and in 2006 Wang was the only pitcher to win a playoff game for us. “THIS TEAM NEEDS A TRUE ACE! OMFG SANTANA NOW !!!11111″
Ya right.
I’ll still take Wang over Beckett. I don’t want any fist pumping or F-bombs on national TV either.
Again, Peter, well put. The guy goes about his business, takes responsibility when warranted, and doesn’t whine to anyone.
Bing, Pow, Bam, right in the kisser. Good Job Pete. Couldn’t agree more.
Wang is awesome. I’d like the Yankees to give their ace for the past 2 years some credit.
Maybe if he called people vulgar names and dropped f-bombs in interviews.
I love Wanger just the way he is. Winningest pitcher in the last 2 seasons. That’s not luck.
Amen Pete! Well said.
I would agree. Wang’s repertoire might not constitute him as an ace, but he has the tools to be a front-line pitcher. He’s young, and a groundout pitcher. When pitchers like Beckett fall off the power wagon, what do they turn to? Finesse, and working counts. Wang does that now, and seems poised to get better as he goes along.
I’ll take Wang with Joba and the potential of Hughes and Kennedy over what Beckett gave last year.
I didn’t want to bring this up during the season. But I read enough here earlier about the bad nail Wang had, that it forced him to modify his pitching style, etc. That it was the kind of thing that wouldn’t have a chance to heal during the season. I haven’t heard this mentioned in awhile.
Wang is great. He’s just an awesome pitcher. If I remember correctly he pitched great in the 2006 postseason. One bad postseason (one of the starts was on short rest for the first time in his career?) can’t change that.
However, I want to state my opinion: Just looking at the pitches he threw and the control he had; I think he was better in 2006. He had better control at the low end of the strike zone and the corners. He didn’t pitch up in the zone.
This year I didn’t like the pitches he threw that much. But I think that’s in his mindset, maybe Dave Eiland or Joe Girardi can do something about that.
Wang is awesome! And I really like his attitude as well.
Well said.
Agreed mko. Hopefully Eiland can fix something Gator couldn’t fix.
Wanger has the stuff to be dominating (like against Mets in June, or against Blue Jays / Devil Rays in 2006, or against Tigers in 2006 ALDS), he just needs to keep doing that consistently.
Finally, a writer that gets it. Not often you see a 94-95 MPH sinker
Yes Wang is good….good not ace.SAntana,Beckett,Holiday Aces.It’s also not just about this post-season.Every postseason game he has gotten a little worse.He did as bad a job as Javier Vaquez did as game 7 of the ALCS in giving up a Grand Slam and three run homrun.
He did what Tom Glavine did last year going 0-3 in his last three starts killing the Mets to the post season.
You give him a pass but no ace for Wang just good.Also did Peter say Wang got a few more Strikeouts this year.To bad he got a few more hits too.
Also Peter do something worthwhile and leak out some Mitchell Report names except trying to think WAng is a Ace.
Wang was a relatively unheralded pitcher who came up at the age of 25.
He wasn’t a top prospect and not much was expected of him.
Now the focus of so many people, ironically, isn’t on how surprisingly good he is – but rather on what he isn’t.
To criticize him for not being Johan Santana or Josh Becket or Roy Halliday 2007 doesn’t mean a whole lot.
Jake Peavy didn’t come up real big in 2007 when the padres needed him. Is he an ace? Neither did CC Sabathia. Is he an ace? And if they aren’t true aces how many of them are their in baseball?
Wang’s a second year pitcher. Not many pitchers in year two of their careers are on the Johan Santana level. But then, not many pitchers at all ever come close to that level.
That’s the level that Wang is constantly compared to – Santana. Ok so he’s not on that level. That’s a level of expectation that’s not realistic for a second year player.
You can’t blame Wang for the fact that the Yankees have major holes in the staff every season he’s been in the majors.
Where would they be without him?
Can’t agree with you more, Pete. Wanger can only get better from this point on and 2007 was just his 2nd full year in the MLB – he got ONLY two 19 wins in a row…
Can’t wait to see Wanger and Andy come back next year and kick some butts!!! Go Yanks!
I dunno, I like Wang because he just goes out and does his job, quietly and very well. He doesn’t pump his fists, or dance around when he strikes someone out. It’s a good thing.
CB – You totally hit the points!!!
if he’d pitched worth a damn in october, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
you make a lot of valid points, pete, but wang got his lunch handed to him twice over the course of a short series. that’s also not a coincidence.
Wanger is great, i dont understand how so many people can undervalue him. Pete makes a good point… Beckett sucked ass in 2006. Wang is still only in his third year! So many damn irrational Yankee fans, it sickening.
“Yes Wang is good….good not ace.SAntana,Beckett,Holiday Aces.”
This statement is a complete fallacy – not because Wang is not as good as Santana but because if you hold up Santana as a true ace no other pitcher in baseball is on that level.
Roy Halliday is frequently brought up as a true ace. He has great, great stuff. But go look up his number, particularly for the past two years.
Tell me how Halliday’s numbers make him an “ace.”
Same thing for Beckett – he’s been great in the post season – that’s very true. But there is no way you can say that Beckett is on the same level as Santana. None.
Beckett had his best year last year. Santana’s worst year of the past 5 was arguably better than the best year Beckett ever had.
People keep throwing out this word “ace” and lumping bringing up all of these other names and saying Wang doesn’t belong there.
The bigger issue is that no one belongs on the same level as Santana.
If Santana is your standard for a true ace then there has been only one true ace in baseball for the past 4 years.
I say we drop the useless discussion about “if Wang is an ace?” He is an ace, so what? He is not an ace, so what? What is the definition of ACE, anyway? Can anyone tells me who was the ace for the Yankees in 2007 and why?
Ace is a BS label that get misused and overused to often…like “clutch”. and “unclutch”. It’s used by people that can’t talk in anything but cliches.
I’m admittedly one of the people who are very down on Wang. I would put him in a Johan trade in a heartbeat.
His playoff performance this year in the ALDS is one of the all time worst.
Do I think he’s worthless and a bum? No.
But the guy didn’t calm, cool and collected against Cleveland. He looked terrified.
If he was ailing from some injury and didn’t report it, then he shouldn’t have started game 4.
Mel Stottlemeyer said in an interview after the playoffs that Wang’s ball wasn’t sinking, it’s was moving side to side which is why he was so hittable against Cleveland.
If Mel saw that on TV, I have to believe that the Yankees saw it as well. Wang couldn’t make the adjustment he needed and he let the team, that worked it’s butt off to get back into the race, down 2 times in 4 games.
Is some of that on Torre? I guess, but more of it is on Wang who went out in the playoffs and either hid an injury or forgot how to use his delivery to make the ball sink.
Do that one game in the playoffs, fine. Come out and do that twice, you have to prove yourself as a playoff performer all over again.
I don’t think there is anyone here who if asked the question who on the Yankees staff they would want to start a one game playoff would pick Wang.
If they said they would, they would be lying.
He has to bounce back in a big way this season and if the Yankees make it to the playoffs, he has to pitch a solid game to get this stink off of him.
I have just as much right to be disappointed in the guy as anyone else has to defend him even though he was awful in the most recent post season.
Wang is the ace and he is amazing. I love him because he is quiet and doesn’t pump his fist everytime an out is recorded. He is calm and confident, everything a pitcher needs to be.
I think ppl arguing for the yanks to get santana or that they need an ace is not the same argument that wang is no good or not nearly as good as beckett. I think we should get an ace in santana because we dont have a proven lights out pitcher with filthy stuff. I think wang had a horrible post-season and I dont think wang is a true ace because he cant get a strikeout when we need one and he lets up as many hits as innings pitched which is usually not what lights out pitchers do. But he is certainly a great pitcher and deserves alot of credit and respect. However, that doesnt remove the fact that he isnt automatic and he wins many games due to solid run support. If andy had the run support wang had last yr, andy would have had 18 to 19 wins and wang would have had 15. But you cant argue with his era, walks/9, homeruns/9 and the whip is okay as well.
Kasey, how did Sabathia do over the course of the post season. He was overly spectacular. Peavey, Webb?
Nothing but respect here for Wang, the guy clearly knows how to pitch and I’m really curious to see how he performs with the new coaching staff. Wang isn’t a strikeout pitcher, so perhaps he doesn’t fit the cliched definition of an “ace” but IMO he is a valuable asset to the team. How easily his 7 inning shutdown of Boston on August 30th are forgotten.
Granted his performance in the postseason this year was poor, to say the least. The various factors that contributed to that have already been discussed on this forum, no need to rehash it again.
Kasey,
In all of baseball who is a “true ace?”
I’m not saying Wang is one – but if he’s constantly being defined by what he is not, then I’d like to know who is a true ace besides Santana?
Halliday? He gets hurt all the time. And has had two really great year. Chris Carpenter – same – hurt all the time. Peavy – always awful in big spots and cost his team a playoff birth this year as the padres folded. Sabathia? Awful in the playoffs.
Who besides Santana and perhaps Beckett is an ace?
G.Love, here’s a comparison if you’re old enough to remember the WS in 1968. Mickey ?Lolich won 17 games during the season, was a complete shutdown pitcher winning 3 games in the series. Denny McLain had one of the greatest seasons ever for a pitcher, winning 31 games and was completely blown out of the water in his first 2 starts. It happens in a short series. The top pitcher gets hammered and somebody else is the hero. Lou Burdette, Johnny Podres weren’t even the second best pitchers on their teams ans were series heroes. Larson and Ford…who’s the most logical guy to throw a perfect game, let alone in the series.
Kasey:
Funny thing about pitching in the postseason: you have to get there first. Wang doesn’t do what he did, the Yankees were playing golf on Oct. 2.
All they needed was a post from Pete to change there minds, amazing…
If you judge ace status on post-season performance, how can any of you who are saying Wang isn’t an ace say that Sabathia is an ace?
The truth is Wang is the best starter we have, and one of the best pitchers in baseball. In fact he is the winningest pitcher in baseball over the last 2 seasons. So yes, he is an ace.
Beckett wasn’t an ace last year, but now he is this year. What beckett is, is a lights out postseason pitcher, that you cannot argue. But no one would of said that beckett was an ace after the 2006 season. Making rush judgements and decisions in baseball usually comes back and shits on your face. You need to give people time instead of judging players on small sample sizes, or worse, the last 2 games they played.
Bingo. Give the kid a break and let’s hope he has lots of postseasons to prove his doubters wrong. He’s got a bright future and the present isn’t looking half bad either.
Frankly, I think saying little to the press is a lot better than dropping expletives to the media during the playoffs (see Cleveland series 2007).
all –
i’m not comparing wang to sabathia, peavy, etc. i’m saying that, while pete’s points were all valid, it’s not an accident that the guy got smacked around the yard twice over the course of five days. he’s a good pitcher, but raise you’re hand if you feel completely comfortable handing him the ball in game one of a playoff series.
pete –
excellent point. same could be said for a-rod.
“Peavy – always awful in big spots and cost his team a playoff birth this year as the padres folded. Sabathia? Awful in the playoffs.”
What are you judging Peavy off of, like 3 “big spot” games? And how exactly did he cost them a playoff birth this year? The only reason they were in position to be in a tiebreaker game is because he was by far the best pitcher in the NL this year. He won the Triple Crown! How is that not an ace?? What idiocy. If you want to make a case against Peavy, maybe you should start with his 2006 campaign with a 99 ERA+. Not a couple of “big spot” games.
You need to stop judging people on small sample sizes. If you want to criticize Sabathia, don’t look at 3 crappy postseason starts. Look at how he was nothing close to an ace in the 2001 – 2005 seasons. His last 2 seasons have been awesome. 3 postseasons starts are not the reason to doubt his status as an elite pitcher in today’s game. And you touched on the only negative with halladay – his health. But saying that he has only had 2 great seasons is wrong. The guy is alwasy awesome – when he is healthy. His WHIP has been under 1.20 for 6 of the last 7 seasons and he has posted 5 seasons with an ERA+ over 140 in that time. That is an ace.
Here a starter list for current aces – Santana, Webb, Smoltz, Halladay, Beckett, Sabathia. And there are several guys that are approaching that level and might be there with just another good season or two – Zambrano, Carpenter, Bedard, Kazmir, Verlander, and Sheets. And if you want to go more extreme and go for guys that could be aces right away then that list includes Hamels and Liriano.
I’d put a pitcher like Wang or Buehrle in that next tier of pitchers, which is still pretty good. And Wang has yet to suffer the injuries that have plagued the Sheets or Halladays, so that’s a good sign. But he’s only played 2 years so maybe he will start to get those injuries – we don’t know yet. I’d take any of the listed pitchers above right now in a straight-up trade for Wang, with maybe the exception of Sheets since he is always injured and his strikeout rate rapidly dropped off this year when he was healthy. Wang is pretty good but there are plenty of starters who are better than him and have better potential to be dominant aces within a couple of years.
Me like-y Wang. Me love him long time.
I’m a big fan of CMW and a one who is firmly in the playoffs-are-just-a-crapshoot camp. That said, even I have trouble generating any positive feelings about Wang right now. The problem isn’t that he didn’t pitch like an “ace” in October. It’s that he was given two playoff starts in a short series and absolutely handed those games away. Moreover, there was no earthly reason for him to go out there and stink up the joint the way he did, at least that anyone could have foreseen prior to the playoffs (e.g., an injury). I don’t think it overstates the case to say that his performance just completely pulled the rug out from under the team and its fans.
For the record, I haven’t given up on the Wangster by any means. I hope and expect he will have another good season in 2008. But if that season ends the same way this season did, I would expect no just some but MOST Wang fans to jump ship.
Great Blog.
Wang has kind of become the scapegoat of the season, and it’s not right. Like you said, this was his 2nd full season pitching in the MLB, and he’s got 19 wins in each season. He can CLEARLY handle the pressure of pitching in NY, and it would be crazy for the Yankees to do anything other than sign him to a long term contract. He consistantly pitches late into games, something none of our other pitchers can seem to do, and gives the bullpen a rest.
If you take out the back to back games against the Jays and the Orioles when he clearly wasn’t right, Wang finishes the season with a 3.28 ERA. Also, in 5 games against Boston, he gave up more than 3 runs twice, more than 4 runs once.
2 full years, 19 wins in each of them. The last Yankee pitcher to win 19 or more in consecutive years was Tommy John in 1979-1980. Wang had two bad games in the postseason. Other than that he did something not done by a Yankee pitcher in over a quarter century.
Last year, Beckett was awful in Boston. This year, he was good in the regular season and great in the post-season. He’s a very good pitcher.
So is Wang.
Wang is a victim of his quiet nature and statheads who believe strikeouts and emotion on the mound are the only true indicators of a good pitcher.
He is a guy in the early stages of his career. He’s far from a finished product.
Folks who are determining he is “no good”, based on his horrible post-season are the same people who want to run Arod out of town after 2006.
Thank God you folks aren’t in decisionmaking positions within the team.
Derek Jeter had as much to do with the Yankees first round exit as Chien Ming Wang. Yet, I don’t see many people ready to get rid of Jeter.
Ease up on Wang. The guy is a lot better than his last two starts. If he wasn’t, he wouldn’t have had the success he had in his first 2 1/2 years in the majors.
I love Wang and I agree that he is an ace but that doesnt change the fact that we need Santana. We wouldnt be trading Wang for Johan but Hughes probably. And we need Johan if only to keep him from going to Boston. So let’s not say that just because most people agree that Wang is an ace that we still dont need Johan.
One thing that doesn’t get mentioned is how Wang has such a great ability to eat innings. I don’t think Torre utilized this as much as some managers would have – but Wang throws so few pitches per 9 that he helps save the bullpen on a regular basis. Our bullpen was horrible – but it would have been worse had Wang not come and pitched deep into games so often. A year or so before Wang came aboard, I felt that this was a HUGE problem and, to a certain degree, it still is. We’ll see with this upcoming season – Wang and Pettite will have to pitch deep into games because the young guys will be watched very closely. In fact, I would probably arrange the rotation to have Wang, Hughes, Pettite, and Moose/Joba/Kennedy just to make sure that the ‘pen isn’t forced to pitch three+ innings three days in a row.
sorry I also forgot about Oswalt as an obvious current ace
I love Wang and he’s my favorite player on the team right now, but it seems to me that he’s more susceptible to getting roughed up due to bad luck than other more traditional strikeout pitchers simply because his strategy has been to put the ball in play. Grounders can find holes and maybe some of our infielders aren’t quite as defensively adept as we’d want them to be… (Jeter =\)
Wang stunk it up in Cleveland and is the primary reason we were out of the playoffs. Nonetheless, he is a quality arm who should be in the Yankees’ plans for many years to come. Josh Beckett will blow out his elbow this year – just my prediction.
Pete,
You don’t need to sell me on CMW. I think he’s been great for the Yankees. And I love his demeanor. And I also love that he’s always one pitch away from a DP!
An ace with 199 hits in 199 innings and 104 stikeouts.ACE.Then what do you call Santana…Oh yes SAntana is a LENGEND if Wang is a ACE.
Any word on whether Johann will be named in the Mitchel report?
Bah, it posted for some reason. Anyways, in this sense he might not be an ace because I believe it’s harder for him to completely shut down an offense than a pitcher who goes out there and just causes batters to whiff. But it does let him eat up innings without burdening his arm too much. But hey, I don’t care if people consider him the ace or not and he probably doesn’t either as long as they appreciate the work he does and the value he has to the team.
Anyone still using wins and ERA to analyze pitchers probably shouldn’t be writing about baseball.
Johann took roids, no doubt
Kasey, it is funny, when Posada alluded to Wang not being an ace by clamoring for Santana, you were all over that, telling the rest of us that since Posada said it , that was your strongest proof and vindication in the whole “Wang isnt an ace” argument. Yet when Pettitte says, in no uncertain terms, that Wang is an ace, you dont comment once. Funny, huh?
“Wang is a victim of his quiet nature and statheads who believe strikeouts and emotion on the mound are the only true indicators of a good pitcher.”
- – - – - – - – - – -
You are correct that the stat guys like K’s, but they don’t give much credence to any intangible stuff like how emoitonal or how much of a sparkplug someone’s demeanor is. So I think you are wrong on that one. If a pitcher puts up awesome stats but behaves like a robot, the stat guys will love him. They don’t care about personality.
“You need to stop judging people on small sample sizes.”
That’s what this entire debate about Wang is about.
The biggest criticism against him is that in a “big spot” he’s not the guy who is going to be counted on to win a game.
The most evidence people lean on for this isn’t the regular season – in the regular season his numbers are very impressive (other than the endless debate on his strike out rate).
The biggest knock on Wang and what started this whole “he’s not an ace debate” was the 2007 post season.
So what the strongest criticism against him is based on two starts in the post season.
Two games is a very small sample size. That was my point with the comparison to Peavy.
Wang has been torched because he pitched terribly in the biggest games of the season. The fact that without Wang the yankees wouldn’t have made the playoffs isn’t a point people put in his favor.
In a similar way Peavey came up amazingly small in the biggest spot of the padres season – now of course they wouldn’t have been in that position. Same as the yankees.
But the issue with Wang has become how did he pitch in the playoffs. For peavey that was his playoffs. And he pitched lousy after winning the NL pitching triple crown.
If people hold up Santana as the standard for an ace (which they have over and over since the end of the season) there are no other pitchers close to that level in all of baseball.
Webb, Smoltz, Halladay, Beckett, Sabathia – all of them have either shown some year to year inconsistency, been injured, or not pitched well in big spots.
I agree that they are all better pitchers than Wang. But you could also criticize them and say that they are not ace’s if you compare each to santana.
to me an ace is a guy that can dominate a playoff series – wang is not that guy. He is a good pitcher, not an ace
B
So what is Want’s ERA+ and WHIP? I am not sure that K/9 is that important for Wang because he specializes in getting ball put in play weakly rather than hard hit balls.
“I’ll still take Wang over Beckett. I don’t want any fist pumping or F-bombs on national TV either.”
-LMAO, you can have the good behavior, I’ll take the playoff wins.
Funny how a fanbase whom prides themself on “being all about October”, suddenly changes their tune here.
Wang compares very favorably to every pitcher on the list of “aces” over the last two seasons with very few exceptions. I don’t have time to put the stats together and post them here, but I think you guys that are posting these lists should check them out.
For example, I’d take Wang’s last two years over Beckett’s last two years.
“I don’t want any fist pumping ”
- So what you’re saying EY is that you want the Yanks to get rid of Joba?
“For example, I’d take Wang’s last two years over Beckett’s last two years.”
-You have to include playoffs.
Wang is a very good pitcher, but is not an ace. Check out his home-away splits and tell me if that’s an ace.
Lifetime K/9 rate
CM Wang 3.8
Cy Young 3.4
Peter, you’re the sh!t. Great work this offseason. Seriously. And I think you’re right about CMY.
“But you could also criticize them and say that they are not ace’s if you compare each to santana.”
Of course you can’t put any other pitcher on the same level as Santana. But doesn’t mean there are no other dominant starting pitchers out there. Smoltz, Oswalt, Halladay, Beckett, etc are dominant pitchers who are the next best after Santana, which is still very impressive.
As for your criteria on being an ace I don’t think “big spot” performances should be near the discussion because anybody can have a good or bad single game – that doesn’t mean he isn’t an ace. I prefer your criteria of consistency and health. And the way I judge consistency is with several different stats, and those stats tell me that there are several current aces out there, and a nice number of guys that might be ana ce in a couple of years.
Right now if you had to pick a 5-man rotation and you didn’t include Peavy, because he doesn’t perform well in a “big spot” then your reasoning is laughable.
If Peavy or Wang or any of these guys – including Beckett – pitched 200 innings worth of October or “big spot” innings, do you really think that the final results would not closely resemble their career regular season stats? They don’t magically trasnform into different pitchers once the calendar turns – same body, same mechanics, same pithing style, but fluky stats based on small sample sizes. That should not come in to play when judging if someone is an ace. Look at Santana’s current unspectacular postseason stats – oh no! he must not be an ace. See, it’s laughable.
Pete,
I tend to agree with you. Like Posada, Wang tends to fly under the radar and be underrated because of his nonconfrontational personality and (refreshing)
lack of showboating.
That said, his performance in the playoffs last year was EXTREMELY disappointing and a very hard pill to swallow.
sorry I had a bad typo :
“big spot performances should be near the discussion because”
should be
“big spot performances shouldn’t be near the discussion because”
hmmm nevermind i had it right the first time
time to shut up
A few years ago, Wang was considered a spare part in a potential trade for Randy Johnson. We’ve gotten more from him that we ever expected, and I look forward to him becoming even better. A great homegrown surprise.
I think you might be lumping together two groups of critiques of Wang together. One wrongly focuses on his troubles in this year’s playoffs and doesn’t think he’s an Ace quality pitcher. He is if you define “Ace” as being one of the top 28 pitchers in the league. He’s easily an Ace under that definition and really is much more consistent than people give him credit for. He was #2 in AL Cy Young voting in 2006 and won just as many games last year with an ERA only 0.07 higher and WHIP even lower than in 2006. He’s a great guy to have in the regular season. He consistently makes quality starts and goes deep into games, saving wear and tear on the bullpen and usually giving the team a chance to win especially with the Yankees’ offense. However, he’s not a dominant starter. He has one career shutout and when he’s matched up against against the big game, dominant starters of the best teams, I don’t expect the yankees to get blown out but I don’t really expect them to win either. I think Wang will have a great career but I’d feel much more confident about the Yankees playoff chances if they had a more dominant #1 to match up against Beckett, Sabathia, and Lackey. It used to be that the yankees would try to stay in the game against the best starters and then beat up on the bullpens. Well, that doesn’t work that well anymore since the Angels, Redsox and Indians bullpens are better than the Yankees’ bullpen. To say that NY needs Santana is an overstatement, but he sure would help.
I think Wang wanted to get his stike-outs up and changed his appproach a little this year at times. He’s the man and he should show up next year ready to go. In my mind he has been the go to guy since he came up. Clevland had his number big deal.
Elias rankings
2006-2007 Final Rankings of American League Starting Pitchers
RANK PLAYER
1 Johan Santana 95.040 A
2 C.C. Sabathia 93.452 A
3 Roy Halladay 91.567 A
4 John Lackey 89.583 A
5 Chien-Ming Wang 87.897 A
6 Josh Beckett 86.706 A
7 Dan Haren 85.913 A
8 Scott Kazmir 85.714 A
9 Erik Bedard 85.218 A
10 Kelvim Escobar 82.937 A
from http://www.usatoday.com/sports.....lete_N.htm
I never understood why people are so down on Wanger??? He is and will continue to be- our ace. I can’t believe thats even a question.
Oops, Lackey is another one I forgot about.
I basically agree with Bill. Wang has done very well and I would expect him to have similar success next season. And with the weak state of the Yankee bullpen his ability to go nearly 7 innings a start will be highly valuable.
My main gripe with calling Wang a definite ace is that he lets too many baserunners on. It has worked out well for him since he is great at getting groundballs (and hence, GIDP) and he has a great HR-allowed rate. But he is more likely than most of the other guys I mentioned to have an off year because he lets so many runners on base. If he just has a little more bad luck next year or the year after, his ERA could easily land between 4.00 and 4.50 (especially with Jeter’s declining defense at SS). I don’t see that as being the case with the other pitchers I mentioned vecause they are generally great at keeping runners off base to begin with.
“As for your criteria on being an ace I don’t think “big spot†performances should be near the discussion because anybody can have a good or bad single game – that doesn’t mean he isn’t an ace.”
I agree with that completely. “Big spot” criteria is not the one I use to assess a pitcher. Over time players are going to tend to perform at their expected level of play.
But the “big spot” is the main criticism that’s been made of Wang – that he was bad in the playoffs this year (forgetting how he pitched in 2006).
It’s those two post-season games that have been what’s gotten so many people upset – to the point where they want to dump him in a trade.
If you take that notion of “big spot” out of the equation then it becomes much more difficult to knock wang.
I don’t think he’s a top 5 pitcher or anything like that. But I do think that he’s only finished his second full season and has been very good. Not too many pitchers, even ones that come up at age 25, have had first two seasons like the ones he’s had (ERA+ > 120 WHIP
Ok I’m sorry for getting vindictive there, CB. I read through the posts quickly and obviously missed your points. I agree with your assessment of Wang.
so without Wang, i think Yanks can’t even get onto the playoff. What you say doesn’t make any sense.
My favorite thing about wang is the headlines the next day after he pitches
ive seen
“wang roughed up by birds”
“angels jump early on wang”
“torre yanks wang in 6th”
“wang goes the distance”
“wang saves game for yanks”
“small, wang heroes of 2005 yankees”
i love those!
also when the yankees played the angels earlier some year there was “yankees to get a taste of angels colon”
of course referring to bartolo colon!
Midge It,
No problem. I figured as much – I wasn’t sure why you were being so assertive making a point we were essentially agreeing on.
I agree with what Bill said above. That summed it up really well.
The main point I was trying to draw out is that most of the criticism of Wang has been that he’s not an ace because he didn’t come up big in the playoffs.
This has been the overwhelming issue people have drawn on.
The other aspect of being an ace I agree with. A very fair case can be made that it is extremely difficult for a pitcher who pitches to contact to be a dominant force on the mound. Can it be done? Sure, but it is real difficult.
While its true that Wang style will be very sensitive to fluctuations of his BABIP, I also think that you can’t knock Wang based on how he “projects” to pitch.
The empirical fact is that he’s pitched two seasons and each year had an ERA+ of 120. That’s quite good, especially for given that one of those seasons was essentially his rookie year.
The case with Lackey is a good one – led the AL in ERA+ and had a great year. But if you ask many, many people if he’s an ace they would say absolutely not because the guy cannot beat boston and gets killed every time they meet in the playoffs.
I don’t agree with that (though I’d like to see Lackey have another season like this last one before saying he’s an elite pitcher). But that the same argument on Wang I think is misguided.
You are right Peter, I admit, I was upset with his playoff performance, but he is very good and very young. You can’t win 19 back to back in the bigs without being a very good pitcher.
Wang isn’t a bum. He just isn’t a playoff shutdown stud. He isn’t an Ace. There is more to being an Ace than having a couple of good regular seasons. There is coming up big in big games, high pressure games… like the Beckett matchup this year in Fenway where he completely melted down.
His away numbers alone prevent him from being a number 1 in my opinion – throw into that the fact that he doesn’t really put people away on his own, he relies on the defense behind him, and he is almost as streaky as a knuckle baller (”the sinker just wasn’t sinking this game”) and I’m sorry – but an ace for a 200 million dollar club he is not.
funny how people call beckett an ace after 1 good year.
what was beckett in 2006?
wang has been very good for 2 years in a row. it’s all about winning games and he’s won 19 two years in a row.
let’s see where we’re at in a few months.
Wang gave up 9 homers last year … Santana gave up 33. Just throwing that out there.
Beckett was great when Florida and Boston won the World Series … how great was he all the other years?
Who’s won more games than Wang the last two years? No one.
Wang is a great pitcher, he’s underated for the most part imo.
He lacks the aggressive/competitive approach which makes a guy like Santana/Beckett stand out.
I’d say he thrives on consistency – I do hope he will continue to mature as a pitcher and improve in those areas.
Oh, and Aaron Harang is an Ace I haven’t seen anyone mention. I’d put him against Beckett any day – Hopefully I’ll get to see it happen this season when Boston comes to Cinci.
Hey I agree that Wang is really good but why do so many people get caught up in the 19 wins each year? Tim Wakefield won 17 games in 2007 with a 4.76 ERA. Jason Marquis won 14 games in 2006 with a 6.02 ERA. Wins are highly dependent on run support and bullpen effectiveness and defense.
The Yankees provide Wang with tremendous run support. 6.47 runs per game in 2007, 5.70 runs per game in 2006. A lot of good pitchers would win 19 games with that run support. The other advantage Wang has in getting wins, and this is a credit to him, is that he pitches more innings with his 100 pitch couhnt per game than most other pitchers. Kazmir has lost out on numerous wins because he reaches 100 pitches in 5 IP, and then Tampa’s awful bullpen blows all his leads. John Smoltz lost out on 7 wins this year because his bullpen blew those leads for him.
my point is who cares about individual wins for a pitcher when evaluating them. Pitchers can positively affect all 30+ games they start, and just because they got a win doesn;’t mean they pitched well: randy johnson 2006 had a 5.00 era yet won 17 games which prompted michael kay to say he was better than moose in 2006, which was a complete joke. he had the best run support in baseball that year: 6.48 runs per game
Right on Pete, I agree 100%. Who else has won 38 games in their first 2 full seasons and heard a load of grief for not being an “Ace”. Take notice people.
I think people always have short memory,when Beckett sucked in 2006,people said his prime was gone and he was no longer an ace,but he came up big in 2007.
So Wang is no ace for now,but we will see what he is in 2008.If he stinks again in playoffs, you can say he is not an ace at all, and I will agree with you .
NYPD113th,
I agree Beckett was dominant this year in the playoffs, but if the Red Sox had Wang instead of Beckett last year, they wouldn’t have missed out on the playoffs.
I know what Wang’s splits are, but the away splits are exagerated by more than .7 runs based on the Toronto game alone. Anyone could see that he wasn’t right that game.
For the record, Beckett’s home-away splits are pretty drastic as well: 4.17 ERA compared to a 2.18 ERA. I don’t think that having a discrepancy in home-away splits really defines whether or not a pitcher is an ace.
I guess what this discussion comes down to is how people view the “ace.” Is the ace the guy who wins games by striking out a lot of guys or the guy who wins games by getting the batter to put the ball in play.
To me the definition of ace is the guy who wins games. The Ace with a capital “A” is the guy who gets really hot and dominates in the playoffs.
Remember Clemens in the post season? Was he still the Ace after ‘86? I think so.
Remember Becket in ‘04, ‘05, ‘06? Good not great. Still an Ace though because of ‘07.
Of all those guys mentioned above, how many have actually WON a more than ONE playoff game? Remember Wang has had only 3 postseason starts on real rest.
‘05 Against that Angels he pitched extremely well but gave up the big hit Cabrera. 6.2 and 1 EARNED Run
‘06 Against the Tigers, pitched very well gets the win. 6.2 and 3 Earned Runs
‘07 Against the Indians, 5.2 and 12 Earned Runs.
Pettitte has had some awful series. ‘98 until game 4 of the WS, ‘01 WS, ‘02 DS. So one bad series doesn’t make a bad pitcher.
It’s possible to make the argument that Beckett was twice as good as Wang.
Wang had an ops+ of 121 while Beckett had an ops+ of 145. Since 100 is average, Beckett was “twice” as better as Wang.
I agree with Andy – Wang is a stud!
My definition of an ace is a pitcher who can go up against any other team’s best pitcher and make me feel confident he is going to win. I feel that way with Wang at least half the time, and I feel that way 100% of the time when he is up against any other guy in the opponent’s rotation with the exception of Cleveland with Fausto and Sabathia.
There are very few aces in the game today. IMHO aces are guys who demonstrate the ability to consistently go deep into games(7+), a guy who can win or fight through a game without his best stuff, with the capability to win 20 games. Guys like Smoltz, Oswalt, Carpenter, Santana and Halliday represent this, with Beckett not far off.
I don’t happen to believe Wang is an ace at this point but he is quite obviously, a solid #2 on any team, and would be a #1 on at least 50% of ML teams. Wang isn’t being slighted by not being labeled an ace or not living up to be an ace. It is because the Yankees haven’t had a #1 in so long that he is constantly being compared to one.
I’m too lazy to read 90-some-odd responses so excuse me if this was already said. Wang’s numbers, although nice, do not speak to his performance in the 2nd half of the year. Any fan that watched all his outings should have noticed that he didn’t have his stuff. There were countless times he was in jams and escaped. I realize this is part of baseball but the frequency of these situations seemed to skyrocket. Plus, it was plain to see his location was off greatly compared to the rest of his short career.
I’ve always been baffled as to why he doesn’t K more guys. He’s often in the mid 90s with a nasty sinker.
Love Wang! He’s one of my favorite players. He rocks.
Wang missed the first month of the season with a hamstring injury & also broke his nail off on his pitching finger in August I believe. Even though he tried to glue it back it was still painful and caused some of his pitches to sail high. So he started slowly & ended in playoffs a bit off, but that happens. If he had been healthy at start & got 3 more starts he could have won say 2 of 3 & perhaps another 1 or 2 where he pitched while recovering and had 22 or 23 wins. Then he probably wins the CY young award.
Also, Wang was down to basically 2 pitches at end of year, because the split finger pitch would rip his nail off. But he throws 94 MPH 4 seam fastball & a 92 MPH split finger pitch that looks like a fastball as well as a slider. Wang had a terrific change up in Japan, but hasn’t used it much here.
So how many pitchers have 38 wins in their first 2 full seasons?? Sounds like an ace to me!
Wang is an ace.
Wang’s problem this year is probably mental.
From his limited number of interviews I get the impression that he doesn’t particularly welcome the title or pressure of being an “ace”. Remember how he suddently elevated into the majors. It surprised everyone, probably himself too. He lost his playoff game in his rookie year, but that was actually his best performance in the post seasons. The following year, 2006, most people still regarded him as a no. 3-5 caliber pitcher, but he surprised everyone again. 2007 was the 1st time people finally realised that he’s pretty good, and because we just didn’t have anyone else better, we expected him to carry the rotation and the team. Was the high expectation fair? I don’t know, but he obviously could not cope and finally imploded.
Wang is used to being under-rated, and he plays better being under-rated.
What is with all the ace talk? Each team has an ace, it’s their best pitcher that they would throw in a game 1. By most of your standards there are only 7 or teams with an ace. Incredible.
Wang’s the best pitcher on the Yanks starting rotation. Perhaps his stoic demeanor and “nice guy” personality is the roadblock to Wang being a “true ace”. Wish he were more aggressive on the mound.
I love Wang, but it’s not silly. Strikeouts and fist pumping are entertaining and that’s why we tune in and spend our money at the Stadium – to be entertained.
Example: Randy Johnson and Tom Glavine, two HoFers from the same generation, but very few would pay to see Tom Glavine nibble, whereas the Unit’s fastball flying up and in is something we all enjoyed seeing.
Getting groundballs is good baseball, but that doesn’t mean it is great entertainment.
Wang cannot flourish in pressure of being an ace and performed very poorly against Indians in the playoffs. Obviously Wang needs to work on his off-speed pitches to keep opponents who are good at hitting fast balls off balance. He is a victim of this fair-weather fan base.
kronicfatigue: Sorry, no dice. By that reasoning, a pitcher with an ERA+ of 102 is twice as good as a pitcher with a 101.
Lots of Peopl in Taiwan think:
Technically, Tsao And Kuo are bettern than Wang
Mentally, Wang is better than Tsao and Kuo.
Runs Support, Wang is better than Tsao and Kuo.
Does Wang deserve a better review?
Of course!
I think every pitcher in Yankee deserves a better review espeically compares to Pavano, the “Glass Man”
“Glass Man”?? What the heck is that ?
Yes, it is the nickname that we call Mr. Pavano in Taiwan.
Why?
Becasue Mr. Pavano is so fragile that he really resembles easy to be borken “Glass”.
Does any one here dare to calculate the exact Cost/performacne value of Mr. “Glass Man” compare to any other pitcher in Yankess?
Come on, Mr. Cashman, you should be the one who deserver the better review for aquiring Mr. “Glass Man”.
The question for you—”Why you spend such damn huge $$$ to purchase “glass” for Yankees? Don;t you know that Yankees need “Stone, “Iron” or to better like “Steel” instead of “Glass”???
just to tell that I love Wang since he came up