Selig should be careful with punishment
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George Mitchell made it a point today to say that none of the players mentioned in his report should be punished by MLB. Pretty telling.
Bud Selig – who incredibly said he hadn’t read the whole report – said he would take each player on a case-by-case basis and act swiftly.
If the commissioner tries to suspend anybody, he’s going to create quite a mess. Because the feds had the goods on Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee, they ratted out some players to Mitchell. Radomski lives in New York and worked for the Mets. So many of the players he dealt to were connected to the New York teams.
The dealers in Los Angeles, Boston, Miami and other places ducked the investigation. I’m no former Senator, but I suspect Radomski and McNamee had competitors. You know what many players will want for Christmas? Their canceled checks back.
If Selig starts suspending assorted Yankees, Orioles and Blue Jays based on the report of a Red Sox team director, he’s going to upset competitive balance and raise more questions about the validity of this report.
Beyond that, suspending players based on hearsay evidence is tricky business. Threaten somebody with time in the big house and they’ll toss their mom under the bus. There are no positive tests here, no photographs, no audio.
You want to punish teams based on what the towel boy said? The MLBPA would sprint to court on that. In real life, these charges are flimsy at best.
Public scorn is enough. Suspensions need to be based on hard evidence, not the squeals of a rat.
————
Anyway, that’s the blog for tonight. I’m going to catch I Am Legend and forget about baseball for a few hours. Thanks too everybody for reading and especially for participating all day.
If I didn’t respond to your e-mail yet, be patient.
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on Thursday, December 13th, 2007 at 11:05 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
i agree 100%
Thank you, Pete
pete, amazing coverage today, i feel like through all the media i’ve sifted through on this, espn, nytimes, nbc news, cnn, etc you offered a really skeptical and balanced opinion on this. and i mean skeptical as a compliment as a journalist should always bring a skeptical eye to reporting. really fantastic coverage and it’s great to have you covering my favorite team. cheers.
You can bet that Pettitte will be the first player Selig tries to suspend. (A move which will be heartily defended by George Mitchell, Peter Gammons and the rest of the Sox puppets.) But there’s no pro-Red Sox/anti-Yankee bent to all of this, is there?! Seriously, I think it’s the inordinate influence that the Red Sox have in all of this that is really sapping my love for baseball right now, not the farcical Mitchell “report.”
It’s not “hearsay” evidence for what Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee said. Those guys provided direct testimony of conduct they had first-hand knowledge about, just like any other eyewitness. They may lack credibility for other reasons, but it’s ain’t hearsay.
ESPN is talking about Clemens reaching a certain age and getting better, but what about Papi being pathetic when on the Twins, and then all of a sudden being the most feared hitter in baseball when coming to the Red Sox? You’ve got to be kidding!
Great job Pete. I expect a complete review of the movie when you get back,
I don’t understand how there are any grounds to suspend Pettitte. There wasn’t even enough realistic evidence to include him on the list. They’re going to suspend him for taking HGH before it was banned? For a grand total of 4 times at the most while he wasn’t even competing? And that’s considering that he even did it, which can’t be proven anyway unless Andy admits it.
Off subject from the Mitchell Report, what about the Yankees dealing Matsui for Konerko? That would be a HUGE move for both teams.
I agree Pete
and that’s damn right Jimmy if Andy is going down dammit BIG PAPI is not getting away w/ this !!!
This whole thing is nothing but a big joke. I knew this would happen as soon as I heard that Selig hired Mitchell to do the report. I called it back in March of ‘06. This was never going to end well for the Yankees.
Pete,
You can try to run away, but as soon as they show a mutant rat will big teeth going for Will Smith’s neck all this Mitchel stuff will come flooding back.
If a more stringent testing policy is enacted as a result of this report, so be it. Probably about time anyway. As for suspensions, it seems petty and arbitrary to issue suspensions for acts that occured, in some cases, 5 years ago. Unless Selig hooks up with Peabody and Sherman and sets the “Way Back Machine” for 2002, I think Andy will come out of this alright.
Can anyone be punished if they never tested positive during a period when there wasn’t even a drug program? Should Pettitte—who probably juiced once to heal his elbow—get the same punishment as someone like a Bonds who used steroids every week for seven years so he could hit more dingers? Selig is an idiot.
“Bud Selig – who incredibly said he hadn’t read the whole report…”
Just as I suspected… Selig can’t read.
It would be to the Red Sox advantage (obviously) to have Pettitte suspended. That’s why I think that the Selig-Mitchell team will try to make it happen (and not because I think there is any objectively viable basis for suspending him). The way things are right now, if the Sox want it then it will happen. The “report” gives them all the impetus they need…
Actually Eddie Layton, it’s the very definition of hearsay. Here’s what the dictionary says:
Hearsay:
“unverified, unofficial information gained or acquired from another and not part of one’s direct knowledge”.
Or, if you like:
“Information heard by one person about another. Hearsay is generally inadmissible as evidence in a court of law because it is based on the reports of others rather than on the personal knowledge of a witness.”
So Mitchell is using hearsay. Mitchell’s depending on the unverified reports of two questionable sources rather than his own personal knowledge.
Based on what I’ve read, however, hearsay is used as evidence in court all the time, but there are certain guidelines that apply to whether it is and isn’t applicable.
I’d rather keep Matsui. JMO.
On a side note.. pete can you give us your review on I am legend?
Im wavering heavily whether to spend money to see this or not.
The White Sox need a centerfielder right now, not a corner outfielder. Also, they have Thome at DH. Therefore, I don’t see why they would be so eager to get Matsui.
The MLBPA is fighting the Guillen suspension. The CBA has specific requirements on suspending players and I’m sure they would fight anything that doesn’t comply.
Sen. Mitchell’s knows many of the allegations won’t stand up in a legal court the way they do in the court of public opinion and I’m sure that’s why Mitchell recommended no discipline.
Clemens did not get better at a certain age he just did not get worse… The Houston ERA is the NL sucks stat..
as Peter said no mention of Sammy Sosa in the report that is hilarious….Really how can that be?????
This report appears to be a joke.. No pudge, no Sosa, no Nomar, etc…..what a friggin Joke.. but don’t worry Canseco will do anything for $ and press……….
Lets get move away from punitive measures.
Instead, I think teams like Boston, who didn’t cheat, should be rewarded with extra draft picks.
Boston should be able to get A+ players in a trade in exchange for rubbish.
I hope Selig DOES try and administer punishment.
Then I hope the MLBPA backs Clemens and sues MLB.
Leading to a stalemate, and a long arduous labor stoppage.
Forcing Congress to step in and fully repeal Baseball’s anti trust exemption.
No more minor leagues, no more drafting of foreign players at age 16, and no more reserve clause involving young players.
Then we can eliminate the NL and AL.
Th players can form their own teams, barnstorming the country free from all constraint.
New Englanders and NYers can face off 50, 60 maybe even 162 times a year, sparing the rest of the US their self importance and petty jealousies.
Who needs KC, Tampa or Milwaukie anyway.
Point of clarification on my last note: McNamee’s assertions about his own specific activities with the players would not be considered hearsay because they refer to his actions. The report, however, is also full of several instances where the evidence used is one of the sources hearing something from a third party about a player, which would constitute hearsay. Blah.
Well the cancelled checks are pretty telling. Just as good as a drug test. I don’t know about you but a $3200 or $1600 tip seems a bit strange, especially when many gave that amount.
I buy those. I am having trouble believing the ones without any proof.
It’s amazing that this cost the MLB $60million and was as incomplete as it was. Basically Mitchell and co took 60 million to interview two guys. That is what’s criminal in all of this. It’s rather embarassing to the MLB and to Mitchell.
Can anyone help illuminate the allegation that Clemens played partial seasons in order to avoid random testing?
I’m interested in material facts about the current testing program that may support or discredit this charge. I appreciate your help, as I don’t really understand the charge.
Great coverage/commentary on this story the whole way through.
Yazman,
That does make sense. Can’t get tested if you’re “retired”. You can time your last cycle to pass through by the time you’re activated.
How sad is it that I don’t even care what happens to Clemens?
Yeah, I don’t know–maybe I have this wrong, but I thought if MLB were to go through an investigation like this they’d want to go full bore and truly leave no stone unturned. This seems to me to be so…half-assed. Pettitte allegedly injects HGH 2-4 times when he’s on the DL and that’s the extent of it, but no mention of McGwire, Sosa, etc? Why? What’s the point of doing this if you’re depending entirely on a few questionable sources to make your case and it doesn’t even come close to scraping the surface as to the full scope of the problem? I don’t get it, maybe I’m just missing something.
Can anyone help illuminate the allegation that Clemens played partial seasons in order to avoid random testing?
I don’t see how that helps, after all, Barry Bonds played multiple full seasons without any positive tests.
Yes, I also meant to comment on this blog itself:
Pete, you do an AMAZING job here, both in your sleepless coverage of the team, and astounding astounding following of knowledgeable fans that you’ve attracted.
It’s a pleasure to be a new participant here.
btw.
Was late Ken Caminiti on the list ?
And ever the purveyors of measured reportage, ESPN.com’s home page has a giant graphic of a baseball with a syringe jabbed into it. Real classy.
Mel, that’s basically the allegation I’ve heard. Anyone know the parameters of the testing schedule?
It seems that if testing is random through the season, this “strategy” would not be likely to help Clemens.
Is there anything about the test timing that would make Clemens’ behavior a potentially useful strategy?
nope
1st rd. in Mitchell Draft
Brandon – CF Andrew Jones
Tommy – SP Roger Clemens
Mike R. – OF Jose Canseco
Rebecca – C Ivan Rodriguez
Mel – OF Jose Guillen
Buddy – OF Dante Bichette
B.Dave – 1B/DH David Ortiz
GB7 – 1B Todd Helton
2nd rd. in Mitchell Draft
Gus G. – 2B Todd Walker
GB7 – 2B/LF Chuck Knoblauch
B.Dave – 3B Adrian Beltre
Buddy – OF Juan Gonzalez
Mel – SP Carl Pavano
Rebecca – UTY Albert Pujols
Mike R. – 1B Jim Thome
Tommy – -
Brandon – SP Bartolo Colon
3rd Rd. in Mitchell Draft
Brandon – CL Eric Gagne
Tommy – -
Mike R. – SS Miguel Tejada
Rebecca – SP Pedro Martinez
Mel – 1B/DH Frank Thomas aka The Michelin Man
Buddy – OF/1B Brady Anderson
B.Dave –
GB7 – OF Jim Edmonds
Gus G. OF Larry Walker
4th Rd. in Mitchell Draft
Gus G. – 3B Larry Jones
GB7 – 1B Mike Sweeney
B.Dave–
Buddy – HOF Lenny Dykstra (don’t know why but.. )
Mel – OF Milton “That’s Not ‘Roid Rage, That’s My Personality†Bradley
Rebecca – RF Vladamir “no gloves no love†Guerrero
Mike R. – RF Sammy “I donk speak eh’ english†Sosa
Tommy –
Brandon – C Paul “come on you know that roid†Laduca
5th and final Rd. of the Mitchell Draft
Brandon – 1B Carlos Delgado
Tommy–
Mike R. – OF Luis “lucky hit†Gonzalez
Rebecca – RF Magglio Ordonez
Mel – 2B Placido Polanco
Buddy – OF Greg Vaughn
GB7 – OF Rusty Greer
Gus G. SP Kevin Brown
I WIN
seriously when hack was the Report written??? Did Mitchell put this together overnight or somethin? Gagne was mentioned signing with the Brewers. I know he could just edit it out but it goes to show you him mentioning a couple of red sux players just for the hacking of mentioning them. What a f..ing tool.
Yazman – since Clemens did not file his retirement papers, he was never retired and therefore subject to random drug testing. Taking a few months off at the beginning of the season did not change that.
Krusty, wouldn’t it have been a nice move if they had dedicated the report to him?
Caminiti was on the list page 109
Brandon,
Hey that’s not fair. Michelin Man came forward to talk and was given immunity.
The rest of my guys are guilty, but we’re conveniently left out. I got Guillen of course.
Not to give a lesson in evidence, but the definition of hearsay, as defined by the Federal Rules of Evidence and as taught in all evidence courses in all law schools in this county, is “an out of court statement offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted herein.”
As a third year law student (who just took his last exam of the semester this afternoon and has been drinking all day), I will say that evidence is the most difficult course I have ever taken, and the subject of determining exactly what is hearsay was the most intellectually challenging topic of that course.
The reason for this is that the same exact statement can be either hearsay or not hearsay depending on the purpose for which it is used. For example, to cite a pretty common example, let’s say the statement that I want to use in court is, “I spoke to you on the phone last week while you were in London and you told me that it was it raining.” If I want to use your statement to prove that it was raining in London, that is hearasy, because it depends upon whether or not you were telling the truth that it was raining. I wasn’t in London, so I can’t know if you were telling the truth. If I want to testify in court as to your statement, that would be hearsay. But, what if I want to use that statment to simply prove that the phone was working last week? Or to prove that you were alive last week? Those uses don’t depend on the truth of your statement. Even if you were lying, and it was not raining in London, my testimony is relevant independent of your telling the truth. Accordingly, they would not be hearsay.
The point is, you simply CANNOT determine what is and what is not hearsay unless you also know EXACTLY what you are trying to prove with that statement.
END OF LECTURE – SORRY IF THAT WAS BORING.
ESPN just showed a poll on Sportscenter if Roger Clemens should still be elected into the HOF.
They show a map of the country and states that the majority voted YES are in Red, states that the majority was NO were in Blue. The only Blue state was Mass.
Brandon,
sorry I missed he rest of that draft the another night.
I’m pretty pleased with my first round selection though.
Poor Susan
We all know why Clemens never wanted to go to spring training – that’s where the drug testing took place…
what i see is guys who have never played the game in their suits and ties going after the guys who have played the game and wear a uniform.
a player should be judged by a jury of his peers.
a player’s peers are other players.
mitchell, selig, and mc cain can kiss my butt.
Interesting video of David Justice on the Yes Network site. No mincing or parsing of words – Justice says he never heard of Radomski, and that McNamee is lying when he claims Justice asked him about HGH. Justice says that in reality, McNamee approached him after the trade to the Yankees, and left some HGH in his locker. Justice opened it up, saw it involved needles, and said he couldn’t take that. See:
http://www.yesnetwork.com/team.....?oid=36019
mel, yeh I know but I still win
Brandon cranks dat
“If a more stringent testing policy is enacted as a result of this report, so be it.”
This is the thing…They’ve implemented more stringent testing twice in the last four years. Mitchell uncovered nothing that’s happened since they last boosted the testing policy in 05. I doubt that’s because nothing’s happening, but rather that Selig and Mitchell were more interested in finding low-hanging fruit than in doing anything useful.
The only thing that’s going to help is developing a urine-based test for HGH, or implementing blood tests for it.
great sensible coverage, Pete.
When this investigation was announced, it was obvious that Selig was responding to pressure from Washington. A number of people doubted that Mitchell would come up with much real evidence and the murmurs about it along the way seemed to prove that. Players are loathe to rat out others so how much real cooperation were they going to get?
This report does three things: it tarnishes players unfairly (except for Clemens, bonds, giambi), it gets Washington off of Bud’s back and it probably gives Bud a little ammunition with the Players union on this issue. Hopefully, both sides focus on the future by improving the drug testing program.
Because Mitchell brokered peace in Northern Ireland (where he had no dog in the fight) he can’t be biased against a team, The Yankees that the team he works for despises. Who’s owners aggressively petition little league teams in the New England area to change their name from the Yankees and offers any little league team in the country that changes it’s name away from the Yankees new uniforms (classy). His friends call the Yankees the EVIL Empire and gets their cronies at ESPN to refer to them as that like it’s their official nickname (dignified). Every time they lose to the Yankees instead of tipping their cap (like the Yankees did) they cry and whine about payroll (good sportsmanship). Mitchell’s friends with the help of Ol’ Bud stole cough cough I mean bought the Red Sox for some beads and pictures of your sister (can I get her number). No way he could be biased I mean he’s a gosh darn United States Senator. Their all honest and trustworthy that’s how they became Senator’s. Senator Mitchell (honestly honest)
“The investigation did not focus on any one club or any one player,†said Mitchell.
Yeah sure except all your so-called evidence come from two people (great sample size!) who worked with New York ball clubs.
I’m getting physically sick reading about all this blatant in-your-face BS.
$60 million over almost two years to intereview two people to obtain highly questionable and inconclusive information. And this is the guy we used to broker peace deal in Ireland…no wonder there is no peace in the world!
The Players union has already stated that if this is pursued it will go to court. Clemens has made his statement. I bet when the dust starts to settle on this the one who will have a poor reputuation will be Mitchell.
He got awfully defensive when asked about the fact that he is a member of the Red Sox. He immediately started talking about his “great honor”, that is political sleeze obfuscation. He had no intention of going after every club, he was just focused on getting a few scrubs to talk that were tied to NY.
Mitchell is tainted. If this is the effort put out by the “Senator”, “Statesman”, “legal mind”, then how the heck did he do anything worthwhile in Congress? Its slanderous without the proper legal backup that would be required in a court. Selig is even worse, he didn’t read it but puts full faith in Mitchell? Give me a break.
This is only the beginning folks. Wait till the law suits start. Then it will really get fun. The Divide between the Commissioner’s joke of an office and the Players Union just grew a lot wider.
“The White Sox need a centerfielder right now, not a corner outfielder. Also, they have Thome at DH. Therefore, I don’t see why they would be so eager to get Matsui.”
Ok. Send them Damon. They probably won’t even have to pay him extra to waive his limited no-trade. Do they have a leadoff guy?
Jeter
Bobby
Konerko
ARod
Jason
Posada
Matsui
Cano
Melky
That looks pretty good to me…
The whole mess is dicey because MLB’s decision making is has no guidelines. It’s like they’re making things up as they go along and most likely will continue to do so.
Were any Sox mentioned in that report? I need to read the transcript as SportsCenter isn’t giving me all of the names. I would hope that Mitchell will be ethical. However, I have heard rumors for years about Youkilis, Drew and Ortiz. (Look at the HR difference for Ortiz compared to when he was in Minnesota – I think that was his last team, but still…he didn’t do nearly as well pre-Boston.)
Canceled checks mean nothing unless there is a specific statement on the check saying what it is compensation for. I seriously doubt anyone wrote in the lower left of the check “for Steroids”
This witch hunt is scary in that it could happen to anyone. The court of public opinion can dole out a sentence that is much more punitive than anything Selig can hand out.
Imagine you were acused by someone with an axe to grind, of wrong doing. Imagine you had no way of refuting it, or at least no way of absolutely proving your innocence. It is after all, difficult to prove a negative. Too often we all rush to judgement, and the damage is done to one’s reputation before they have a chance to defend themselves.
To publish these names without concrete evidence by someone with a ligitimate conflict of interest. Especially when said someone names mostly members of his team’s chief rival and nemesis… Is dubious at best, and reeks of suspicious intent.
This report is not worth the paper it was written on and is certainly not worth a hangman(Selig)leading a linch mob after the players named on it.
Pat M, you are wrong. The “evidence” Mitchell put in the report is about as valid a condemnation as writting fiction would be.
This has to be challenged in a court and when it is the whole thing tumbles like a house of cards. Mitchell is the one to tarnish his “sterling” liberal reputation. MLB will be sued by Clemens for defamation of character and slander. MLB will then turn around and sue Mitchell.
In this country, despite you living in liberal land where things are topsy turvey, you are innocent till PROVEN guilty.
Wait till the lawyers start tearing into the bias and the fact that Mitchell is a tool for the Red Sox. The Players need to fight this and they will win. Then where will things be? In the crapper right along side Mitchell and Selig.
The media likes to Pretend to take blame for the current drug mess baseball is in today and This generation of Baseball player that has done so much to tarnish the Game ought to embrace Arod and raise him as a roll model/hero figure. Both generations of players and media with their snide comments and attempts to tear the man down and have succeeded to well with many fans should get over themselves and do whats right for the game. And that is to spend as much time over the next few years making Arod into the new Mickey Mantle, Michael Jordan, bees knees and Cat’s pajamas as they did the last few years unwarrantedly making him the Bad Guy. I want Varitek to admit what a punk he was to try fight Arod encased in a suit of armor, I want Schilling to take a vow of silence and I want Howie Clark shot into space.
Andy is innocent until proven guilty. In fact, HCG was not even banned by baseball. Hand in there andy, we love you and will support you always!!
How ironic that Paul Byrd’s name gets leaked during the ALCS with Cleveland. Of course if the Sox had played the Yanks in the ALCS we might have found out about Pettitte and Clemens early too.
How would you like to be Brian Roberts? No cancelled checks. No evidence he ever bought. His crime? He roomed with two guys who used. (Segui and Bigbie) When they doped up he didn’t participate. BUT -supposively he told one of those guys (Bigbie) he had used steroids once or twice in the past. Wham. Now based on his “pals” testimony – he is in a documented report that will be the final tale of the steroid baseball era.
What a joke.
ACT: There are exceptions to hearsay under FRE 802; however all the statments here are hearsay b/c they are being offere to prove the truth of the matter asserted.
in other news Bobcat aka the Prophet is right on the money again
We should all start a letter writing campaign to selig condeming this witch hunt.
Who needs to go to Law school? We hang on this blog long enough we’ll all be able to pass the Bar.
Selig is a FRAUD. He should be ousted like the white dog that he is.
Mile,
Probably. But that’s not what Pete and others are saying. They are giving a uniform definition of what and what is not hearsay. You can’t do that abstractly.
Godsmack should write a song about the mitchel report.
Pete I know u loves the GODSMACK.
Pete is right. They are all hearsay because they are out of court statements. Even deposition testimony can be hearsay, and that is under oath. The pont being that the opposing party has not had the opportunity to cross the declarant.
Mike where do you go to school. NY?
“Selig is a FRAUD. He should be ousted like the white dog that he is.”
I LOVE THAT!
BREAKING SNARK
The Mitchell Report just found the WMDs in Iraq!
hearsay, you say, we all say that Selig is a white dog
GODSMACK RULES
“Pat M, you are wrong. The “evidence†Mitchell put in the report is about as valid a condemnation as writting fiction would be.”
Grrrrr, I think you misunderstand me. I don’t think the report is very credible and a number of people with law backgrounds don’t think it holds water. I’m not a lawyer but the word “slander” comes to mind. Whether one can sue on those grounds, I don’t know. I don’t think the chain of lawsuits you mention will happen either. There will be fallout of some sort.
Yes, people are innocent until proven guilty. I just wish that was true in the court of public opinion (which is all too quick to judge before all the facts are in).
Pat, you were the one who condemned Clemens, “This report does three things: it tarnishes players unfairly (except for Clemens, bonds, giambi)”, those are YOUR words. So YOU specificly have found Clemens, Bonds and Giambi guilty OUT OF COURT. While Giambi did sort of admit to something, it was not stated exactly what, so even there… innocent till proven guilty.
Clemens – even if he brings a suit against Mitchell and Selig for this and wins will always have it stated about him that he used. This is defamation of character. Slander is another issue with this report and Clemens’ lawyer stated it as such. Clemens is going to court about this, and Mitchell won’t be looking all that swift after ward.
The burden of proof is on Mitchell and the legal team he will have to assemble being that it is his name of the report, it is his work.
This was an incredibly stupid thing to do, and Selig was even stupider to have endorsed the thing without reading it. The Players Union and the lawyers are going to have a field day with this, but ultimately no one wins.
You know what is the really sad thing about all this? The fact that the New York media didnt stand up for the players like Roger and Andy. You have to know that they were all around during the time Andy and Roger allegedly use PED’s. I am certain that some of them would have seen some corroborative evidence either supporting or refuting the claim of their usage. So why dont any of them step forward? Why do they get to sit on the asses and write columns about the lack of evidence when some of them surely have some idea of the veracity of these claims. I want a Mitchell report done the knowledge of the media and see how much they knew. That might be more interesting that this farce of an investigation.
LATE BREAKING UPDATE:
Mitchell Report implicates Yankees in Boston’s “Big Dig” financial corruption report. Mitchell also claims several Yankees may be behind the recent gasoline tanker accident / explosion on Everett Street. Mitchell’s source, towel boy
Kirk Radomski, has also leaked evidence linking several current and former Yankees to negative reviews of Ben Affleck’s newest production “Gone Baby Gone”.
Steve, Scoop Jackson was on Sporting News Radio this afternoon so he was able to speak more “freely” (as an employee of ESPN).
He had knowledge of Clemens PED use 2 years ago. He was doing a show (Rome is Burning), but was told to sit on it.
We all had info on his PED use in September of ‘06, when the names on the Grimsley testimony were leaked. Pettitte was also listed in the article.
The NY Times’ interpretation from their various writers will go around the world many times and be accepted as gospel. While passing reference may be made to the Radomski team, they don’t frame the picture that way. Mitchell didn’t-he framed it in the special way he wanted to. His glittering fish was Andy–but he tells us we should be big about it as he lets him twist in the same wind as Clemens and Bonds for nothing like the same alleged behavior. This over-hyped “report” wasn’t even a result of Mitchell and his investigating.One NY Times article referred to Andy and Barry Bonds in the same sentence–so they seem the same now. Helpful image to some. Hearsay, one person’s unsubstantiated account, is the only evidence against Andy.I don’t think Andy’s agent helped him with the statement he made today. I always heard HGH was not a steroid. I didn’t hear that distinction made today, if true.
mel-
who is scoop jackson ??
Ham, I’ve had my disagreements with you over the years. But you just got all your street cred back with me, you are exactly right. I wouldn’t be suprised if Mitchell got sued in all of this.
Grrrr-
you are absolutely right. I did incorrectly find Clemens guilty out of court based on the numerous mentions of him in the report. Pettitte, who was mentioned only once, had 2 to 4 injections while he was injured. From what I read elsewhere, the HGH may have been medically prescribed for him. It sucks how his name has been so prominently displayed for this story. Giambi did admit to something so that’s in a gray area. At least he did admit it which is a lot more than Bonds did.
As you may know, Mitchell did recommend that the players should not be punished. He clearly sees a legal mess ahead. Given that most of the “evidence” comes from a time when HGH was not banned from the game, the whole thing is a little odd. Makes me wonder why they didn’t just keep the names private. Except of course, it’s more impressive to outsiders (Washington) to produce names. And yeah, bud should’ve read it.
I am just fed up with this whole issue. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going away.
Pete,
Exactly how I feel.
Here’s evidence, that while it appears true, (and makes sense, in the general scheme of things), is so flimsy.
This kind of case would never advance in court. These guys named got very unlucky in that their distributors were caught. There’s a ton more guys out there giving this crap out; and they will hopefully have to answer at some point.
I was very disappointed in the Mitchell Report. I just read through the “juicy” details, and let’s just say he runs alot of players names through the mud using very flimsy evidence. That’s not what a former Senator should be doing.
This “Report” really stinks. Selig forces Giambi to talk to Mitchell AFTER TELLING THE TRUTH, by threatening discipline. Then, he expects other ballplayers to cooperate with Mitchell???
I don’t approve of any ballplayer who used steroids. But, to really get to the truth (IF you’re really interested in the truth), you have to be able to provide immunity (from both baseball discipline and criminal prosecution). If the feds don’t prosecute users anyhow, why would they NOT have agreed to provide immunity?
The report is, at best, a joke. It is also VERY unfair to the players named today. For them to take the brunt of the public embarrassment on flimsy evidence is not only classless, but mean spirited on the part of Selig and Mitchell.
I hope the home run records of Bonds, McGuire and Sosa are expunged. I don’t care if they make the Hall of Fame or not. After all, there are a LOT of classless players and cheaters in the Hall already. But, Aaron and Ruth and Maris deserve a LOT better than to have their records “broken” by juiced up, cheating players.
Ok, I’m done with my rant. Fire Selig, send Mitchell back to Beantown, expunge the home run records of the cheaters, and lets kick some butt in 2008.
Why do so many people think there is some red sox bias here? There were only two current Yankees named, Pettitte and Giambi. And we already knew about Giambi.
Of course lots of players that passed through ny were going to be named – radomski is based in ny so that’s pretty obvious. not surprisingly there were plenty of former mets in there as well.
players move around so much these days that many many players have played for the mets and yankees over the last decade. do you really think of grimsley as a Yankee? me neither. what about darren holmes or david justice or rondell white or raul mondesi? i didn’t think so. guys like justice, grimsley, etc have played for several different teams and their inclusion in the report does not mean it was biased against the yankees. there were several former red sox in there as well.
Why do so many people think there is some red sox bias here?
I don’t know, maybe it was the world series ring Mitchell was wearing.
I know that mitchell’s “evidence” against Brian Roberts is laughable, but it is hard for me to look at Roberts in 2005 and think he wasn’t using some kind of PED:
Roberts 2005: 18 HR, .515 SLG, 139 OPS+
Roberts career 162 game avg: 10 HR, .409 SLG, 101 OPS+
And that 162 game avg is counting his monster 2005 seasons. 18 of his 52 career HR came in 561 ABs in 2005. Those other 34 career HR took 2686 ABs.
His career SLG’s, ignoring 2005, are
.341, .297, .367, .376, .410, .432
These are pretty crappy SLGs.
I find it hard to believe that he all of a sudden found a natural way to improve his SLG to over .500 when prior to 2005 his career high SLG was .376
Any Milwaukee Brewers make the “hit” parade?
Naming names was a bad idea, especially with no concrete evidence. February can’t get here any sooner.
Eric Gagne is a brewer
@miggie:
So what, Brian Roberts had a career year. Do you really think because of some drug he suddenly is able to hit for a higher average, etc.? Baseball is mostly a skill/technique game, not a strength game.
I refuse to believe that you can enhance your hitting much with any kind of drugs. Maybe you can get faster and steal more bases when your legs are stronger or maybe you can pitch longer and deeper into ballgames and maybe your ball goes a feet longer and is a home run instead of a double. But I doubt it has a high impact in baseball.
Babe Ruth had a career slugging average of .690. Was he on drugs when he hit .849 and .846?
alright Eroc
not naming names
David Ortiz….
…..clean as a whistle!
Manny Ramirez…
…clean as a whistle!
Clay Bellinger…
…hmmmmm…..
What drug would Brian Roberts be on? The MLB has an active PED policy since 2003.
LOL @ Brandon.
What drug would Brian Roberts be on?
Have you ever heard of HGH????
rolloff–Tell me what HGH does to the body.
**Canceled checks mean nothing unless there is a specific statement on the check saying what it is compensation for.**
Not true. In a court of law they are evidence that a jury would believe unless the defense could credibly impeach it. Good luck explaining to a jury why a baseball player would be repeatedly sending checks for hundred and thousands of dollars to someone like Radomski and then shortly thereafter receiving courier packages (backed up by receipts).
**Beyond that, suspending players based on hearsay evidence is tricky business.**
The players implicated in the report with simply hearsay evidence are very few. I believe less than a handful. There was MUCH MUCH MORE than hearsay evidence on most of the players including Clemens and Pettitte. Further, Selig is not likely to discipline the few players implicated with simply hearsay evidence. For anyone to try to distort the nature of the report with such characterizations belies their own biases. I realize the author is the Yankee beat reporter, but I would expect more objectivity out of a journalist instead of a “circle the wagons” mentality.
I have no reason to attribute bad motives to this investigation, however it is clearly hugely incomplete & that many MULTIPLES of those cited are truly involved. I feel that those cited more than likely are guilty in varying degrees, but that it would be a travesty of justice to PUNISH only this tip of the iceberg, while SO MANY MORE who were involved but not cited get to skate, unblemished. Based on the results of the % who have been caught in anonymous positive testing over the years we KNOW these folks represent only a small % of the REAL #.
Selig would be tickled pink to have us believe that this is it when in his heart he knows how much more pervasive & prevalent it was, with the TACIT APPROVAL & BLESSING of ALL those involved in MLB for many, many, years. Selig & everyone deserves punishment as much as the fools shooting up.
Declare AMNESTY for all past transgressions & MOVE ON & try & ensure a different future if you really want to end the “Steroid Era”.
Personally I believe it is a losing proposition unless you keep BLOOD samples from all for FUTURE repeated testings for newer drugs that are constantly being developed by chemists trying to stay one step ahead of the testers in any case.
CYCLING gets all the bad press because they have been SERIOUS about catching folks for years. IMO, MLB & NFL testing has been a joke for years, & that has only made folks more likely to fall prey to temptation & try to keep up with their competition.
Don’t buy this weak PR ploy as more than window dressing to take the heat away from Selig & his cronies. THEY created what they wound up with by their very
inaction, & they can not be allowed to punish a few in hopes of DELUDING the public into thinking abuse was on a much smaller scale than it truly was & these FEW represent a renegade culture when it was far more widespread.
What should now be investigated and how the feeble report, based on the info given by a club house guy facing prison, cost over $25 million to generate. Maybe Mitchell should now be investigated. $25 million to interview one low life a photo copy checks?
Why didn’t the Mitchell report go after Selig? His office knew what was going on for years and did nothing. Now after this report, Selig will turn into General Patton.
Tucson, I don’t think anyone — the fans, Selig, the owners, players — believe the report covers everyone. They are not trying to delude anyone. They are simply saying we looked into it — long and hard — and this is what we came up with. It’s the best they could do without subpoena power and cooperative parties. And as a fan, I’m satisfied with what Mitchell did as long as they use the report as a springboard to more diligent and stricter monitoring, testing and policies. And I believe they will. This is no PR ploy. It’s an attempt to understand the past better and put the game into better context. They succeeded.
awesome job yesterday pete! Your blog alone makes the purchase of my iPhone worth it. Get some rest.