So, what did we learn today?
-
- December
- 13
A few thoughts on this day in baseball:
The era of good feeling is over: MLB and the MLBPA have been quite chummy for a few years now. The last collective bargaining agreement was fairly painless and they’ve cooperated on various issues, primarily the WBC. The Mitchell Report could change that. The MLBPA got tossed under the bus for a lot of this and Bud Selig didn’t.
Lawyer up: Every team is putting out sanitized statements now. You’re going to hear a lot of “we have to move on” from all involved.
What about Congress? Predictably, the headline-hungry Reps and Senators in Washington are calling for all manner of changes and the head of Selig. Tell you what, once no more kids are getting killed in Iraq you can worry about Paul Lo Duca sticking a needle in his butt.
Roger retired: Make it official now, the Rocket is retired. There won’t be any 2008 midseason comeback after this mess. Koby, Kory, Korncob, Krazy Kat and the rest of those Clemens kids will have a full-time BP pitcher.
Not worth it: Take a look at the list of players. Most are either bums or guys who ended up becoming injured. These are performance enhancing drugs? Andy Pettitte supposedly took HGH for his elbow. He had surgery anyway. Clemens has been dogged by injuries the last few years. At some point, even baseball players have to be smart enough to realize that the short-terms gains are not worth the long-term implications.
Thanks for the ethics: A list of names was going around the internet this morning that proved to be false. Incredibly, some web sites published it. I’d like to hope this teaches them a lesson in confirming news before publishing it but that would be wishful thinking.
Finally: To me, the Mitchell Report was as useful as Carl Pavano. Most of the names were ones we have heard before. If the good Senator did not have the forced cooperation of Kirk Radomski and Brian McNamee, he would have had almost nothing. The names revealed were basically of those players stupid enough to write checks to a lug like Radomski.
Know this much: There are dozens of players breathing a sigh of relief today that they didn’t get caught. If they get scared straight, good. But MLB should invest its money in more frequent and effective tests. That’s the only way this ends. Telling us Chuck Knoblauch did something wrong seven years ago is meaningless.
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on Thursday, December 13th, 2007 at 6:50 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
This is an interesting day to say the least.
Pete,
GREAT COVERAGE TODAY. THOUGHT THAT SHOULD BE THE FIRST POST!!! GREAT COVERAGE ALL DAY – FELT LIKE I WAS THERE
lol…Korncob, Krazy Kat
Koby, Kory, Korncob, Krazy Kat and the rest of those Clemens kids will have a full-time BP pitcher.
Is Washington really getting involved?
This is mostly in keeping with the players who have been suspended and the research Baseball Prospectus has done on PEDs—it gives, at best, a tiny improvement in performance, and it’s most used by marginal players and pitchers desperately trying to make it or get back from injury. The amount of useless ink spilled, ridiculous grandstanding and media blovating on this has been really sad. Pete, thanks for being a (too lonely) voice of sanity on the PEDapollozza today.
No recourse? I am not a lawyer but if this is a lie, couldnt he sue for libel or defamation of character? This publication will cause great harm to clemens’ character and probably keep him out of the hall of fame for a number of years at the very least. If it is a lie, i think clemens has the money to sue for damages. If he sues and wins, I will believe that statement. Otherwise, he is full of crap because any one who is innocent of this would most certainly begin a lawsuit. And now that he is retired, he has the time for a long, drawn out performance as well.
Washington is only getting involved because everyone there wants positive PR and they think is a way to get it. Just say not to performance enhancers. Now take my picture. I am working so hard to protect and assist the voters in my district. Now, let me vote myself a pay increase too.
is anyone else excited for the back pages tomorrow? i love me some witty headlines!
Pete,
I know you’re trying to be funny and you sound like a great uncle. But I can tell you don’t have kids.
Tempted to do something? Ask yourself if you would have to lie to your kids about it if they asked you point-blank about it. I feel for Nikolai and the Clemens kids. I’m sure their fathers lied to them about it.
Nice lefty political editorializing about Iraq, Pete.
Pete, I’d also like to offer Kudos to you for your coverage today. GREAT JOB!!!!!!
Nice lefty liberal political editorializing about Iraq, Pete.
Pete,
Take it easy with the political commentary (“kids are getting killed in Iraq”). As I am sure you’re well aware, foreign policy is not the sole concern of our representatives.
Aside from that, nice work.
Did anyone see Randy Velarde’s name? Seriously when was the last time he played?
Yeah, I figured Leyritz before Velarde.
David Justice was just on YES saying that he never did HGH.
Of course, I say that knowing full well that the list is not even a close representation of who is and who is not guilty. If theye were going to name names, I wish they would heve spent more time and MLB money investigating other areas outside NY and perhaps the latin american countries.
So pete, without radomski and mcnamee this report would be less than nothing? You said it ten times already today! Just kidding, great coverage today and i always appreciate your dedications to giving your blog readers the most updated and comprehensive information. I couldnt ask for anything better than that out of a yankees blog. Thanks for everything you do.
They are all going to deny, deny, deny but unless they actually go out and sue mitchell and whoever else for defamation of character and libel, I will believe they took the roids at some point in their careers.
C’mon, that Iraq refrence was the best part of the post. I can’t stand it when the U.S. Govt.gets involved in baseball. Just election year politics I suppose.
Am I being paranoid or is it a bit odd that the trainers and others that implicated the players today were all former employees of the Mets/Yankees. How can you release this study without input from trainers/former or curent employees of the other team. I know they were stonewalled.
This study seems like the tip of the iceberg yet very few players from say the Tampa Bay Devil Rays or Arizona Diamondbacks were named. Luis Gonzales, as an example would seem to be a perfect candidate.
And although I think Mitchell meant well, his affilation with the Red Sox can’t be ignored yet he seemd indignant when asked about it.
My sense is that the steroid issue is rampant and the Yankess and a few others were thrown under the bus. What i can’t figure out is why release a halfass study.
What “kids” are getting killed in Iraq? Since when are 18-year olds who can vote, drive, marry and perform every other adult responsibility available to them “kids”?
The brave young adults who volunteered (and EVERY ONE is a volunteer) to serve this country in its armed forces deserve your respect. Refraining from infantilizing them and denigrating their decision to serve their country would be step one in that process, Pete.
Hey Stinko, what’s the problem with highlighting that we are at War and this stuff isn’t as important? Quit picking on a guy and get back to your meat and rifles
I’m with you Pete, in no way should names have be mentioned that have not be caught since testing began. This report literally is something a college student could of written.
Thanks Comish learned a lot.
18 years old is still a kid.
Taking “it easy with political commentary” is what gets countries stuck in quagmires (aka Iraq). More people should speak their minds whether they are “qualified” to do so or not. If Curt Schilling gets to run his mouth about how great fighting in Iraq is, perhaps we could use a counter point.
As for Roger… Did anyone see the look in his eyes when he fired that bat at Piazza? This is a total non-story as far as he goes.
We have all wondered for so many years, why Chuck Knoblauch hit so many homeruns. No we know! Thanks George and Bud. You answered the question that caused me to sleep at night
“Nice lefty liberal political editorializing about Iraq, Pete.”
Come on, you don’t need to be a leftist or a liberal to believe that Iraq is a mess. In fact, it is mainstream public opinion.
Because Bud demanded it. The weirdest part of the report is that while it releases names, Mitchell says that Bud should not punish the plaeyers unless he deems the crime so agregious against baseball, but at the same time Mitchell says tehy need to move forward. It seems they were moving forward before all this went down. Now, this report will rehash all the past and cause more distrust and animosity between the owners and the players. Great.
Enough with the politics really. I’ll watch CNN or Faux News if I want to hear about this stuff stick with baseball, I’m sick of all these neo cons popping their heads up. shouldn’t you guys be on the phone waiting to get on like with the likes of Michael Savage and Sean “a Great American” Hannity?
ARSENAL
ARSENAL
ARSENAL
ARSENAL
I learned that a baseball team with a convicted felon owner who was once suspended from baseball for life, and fans who think a season sans ring is an abject failure, has some sleazy folks in the clubhouse willing to do anything to win.
Watching Hot Stove and Michael Kay said something good.THat he was surpised Andy Pettitte didn’t say anything and said that he would talk to the union first.If you didn’t do it then say “NO”.Not no comment.
As long as Mariano Rivera didn’t do it I couyld sleep.But Andy Pettitte I already knew was gonna be there on the list is now getting $16 million…but hey we are getting Santana anyways:)
What “kids†are getting killed in Iraq? Since when are 18-year olds who can vote, drive, marry and perform every other adult responsibility available to them “kids�
The brave young adults who volunteered (and EVERY ONE is a volunteer) to serve this country in its armed forces deserve your respect. Refraining from infantilizing them and denigrating their decision to serve their country would be step one in that process, Pete.
Are you high? Stop imputing things into Pete’s comment that he clearly didn’t intend.
It’s not his fault that our troops have died for an unnecessary war.
“My sense is that the steroid issue is rampant and the Yankess and a few others were thrown under the bus. What i can’t figure out is why release a halfass study.”
Well, they can’t maintain that this “wasn’t a witch hunt” if they actually go out and do investigating to uncover more users. That, of course, begs the question as to WHY they were looking around for any users at all.
What was the point of this investigation? To determine whether the union, owners and MLB all looked the other way while players were doing this stuff? Crucify guys who used PEDs? Catch the drug peddlers? Or, to throw some people to the wolves while blaming everyone but MLB for the problem?
Given what we got from the report, I can only assume it was the last one
[quote]What “kids†are getting killed in Iraq? Since when are 18-year olds who can vote, drive, marry and perform every other adult responsibility available to them “kids�
The brave young adults who volunteered (and EVERY ONE is a volunteer) to serve this country in its armed forces deserve your respect. Refraining from infantilizing them and denigrating their decision to serve their country would be step one in that process, Pete.[/quote]
Your not that smart, are you?
David Ortiz should of been on there, but no Mitchell is a Red Sox fan so he did whatever he could to prevent Ortiz.
“David Ortiz should of been on there, but no Mitchell is a Red Sox fan so he did whatever he could to prevent Ortiz.”
Go take a walk, your going to get a nose bleed.
Does anyone know why Brian McNamee was no longer Roger’s trainer? Did they have a falling out? Maybe something happened between them, and he saw this a chance to get back at him? Can anyone shed light on this? Also I haven’t had a chance to look at the report at all, but is the only connection between Roger and roids Brian McNamee words? Is there any documentation.
That’s it Jennifer, just the word of McNamee. No paper trail, nothing.
stinko Pete isn’t wrong. There are more important things going on in this country that we shouldn’t be worried about steroids in baseball. How about all those idiots who got the flexable rate mortages that will lose their homes? Or Oil prices, and the war. There are plenty of other things that our goven’t should be worried about!
rodg12 Well it is hogwash to me than. Also David Justice was on Yankees Hot Stove denying that he ever bought roids. It was claimed that he paid by check, David wants to see the check and also states he didn’t know the Met clubby.
Didn’t Pete just recently say no political statements on the blog?? So he then makes a political statement (from the left, naturally).
Didn’t Pete just recently say no political statements on the blog??? So he then makes a political statement (from the left, naturally).
volunteer? Dont you get a paychecks for being in the army? I thought it was a job.
Who are you – “The Monk”? Those young adults that some of us still refer to as kids are getting killed in Iraq because of some arrogant leaders much the same as your comment. And yes they volunteered to be in the military, but no they didn’t volunteer to be in this fiasco in Iraq. (And that goes for all the Reservist there as well who already served their time and by design are not supposed to be used outside of the US.)
I don’t care what Yankees were implicated as long as it is fair. I do mind that almost only the Yankees were implicated when we all know it is as in Curt Schillings words around 50% usage & the other 50% have thought about it.
And HGH is sold over the counter still. Cortisone is basically the same thing as far as its use for healing an injury faster to allow a player to play & it has horrible side effects whereas HGH does not. (Some Steroids do have major side effects.)
Jennifer,
Someone said there was an article this summer in which Andy & Roger sang McNamee’s praises.
I find it odd that Andy & Roger had no idea that McNamee was being squeezed.
We learned something? Politicians are craven corrupt scum, baseball union officials, a slight step to the right, owners and assorted league officials a slight step to the left; gee, I already knew those “facts.” My “heroes” and “idols” have feet of clay, I knew that already, too. Such are the benefits of a liberal arts degree. RSN trolls are ignorant and immune from irony (and intelligence), nothing new there either. I think what I learned today is that my misanthropy and disdain for all humanity is not only justified, it is downright demanded.
P.S. as a veteran who knows well the current make-up of the armed forces, describing them as kids is accurate and precise. Very few understood what they signed up for, fewer still understand the geo-politics they are used to forward. Check the desertion rates and you’ll see what I mean.
Didn’t Pete just recently say no political statements on the blog? So he then makes a political statement (from the left, naturally)...
Jennifer – Save Phil Hughes!
The same can be said about speeding tickets, late fees and
littering… All the small things keep this counrty from Anarchy.
“Didn’t Pete just recently say no political statements on the blog??? So he then makes a political statement (from the left, naturally).”
So are you saying that steroid use by baseball players should be a primary concern of the US Congress?
I wonder if he ever gets the JUSTICE he deserves.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahah
Peter,
Since young men are getting killed in Iraq shouldn’t we just stop all sports for the duration.
If you pundits had done your job this info. would have been public long ago.
Pete,
Can you put the official list onto the blog or a website where we can get the list. I cant seem to access the pdf file.
Mel that is interesting. I’m going to email my question to Pete and see if he can shed some light on it.
Anyone who is objective knows this is the tip of the iceberg and to think no current or former Red Soxs are involved is just naive.
Of course the report talks about the Sox signing Gagne and Donnelly even though they ” heard” about the steroid use.
This is one time, I believe, everyone should be painted with a broad brush, but for some reason only known to George Mitchell, he decided to limit his investigation.
Dave,
Here’s the PDF: http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
and
here are the players:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071213&content_id=2325070&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Mitchell and Selig are both going to come out of this smelling like crap.
The lawyers aren’t going to announce lawsuits this early, mainly because they are going through the report and will have to work on verifying the sources sited.
This is only getting started. The Players Union will be involved big time once they read through this joke of a report and the flimsy evidence that convinced George “RS TOOL” Mitchell to list those names. The Players lawyers will be getting rich over all this, and the sad thing is, Mitchell, Selig and the players that were named will all look bad from this.
The Union and the Commissioner’s office will become more distant from each other and Baseball will suffer.
Selig is leaving a great legacy. Not.
Jennifer, I’m pretty sure Clemens fired him after the Fed’s grabbed him. It was right before Clemens joind the Yankees and Clemens didn’t want to be tied into all this smoke.
My wife and I are rolling at the “K” names.
Dave, they have a list on ESPN.com
Kids are dying in Iraq at the hands of insurgents and terrorists, but fortunately those numbers are down. Sports reporters are entitled to speak their minds (see: Olbermann, Keith), and this is Pete’s forum.
Either way, I agree with Mr. Abraham on the Mitchell/BoSox Report, for the same reason thatt I agree with him about politicians making holier-than-thou proclamations about baseball: it’s all grandstanding. The Mitchell/BoSox Report was, I think, MLB’s way of saying: “Look at us! We’re dealing with steroids! Now let’s move on!”
It’s all puffery.
Can you guys see my 7:37 post? It’s awaiting moderation and I want to know if it’s showing up. Thanks.
It’s interesting that Pettitte and Clemens are implicated but there’s no proof. But if Clemens denies and Pettitte says “ok I did it,” is anyone really going to believe Clemens?
“for some reason only known to George Mitchell, he decided to limit his investigation.”
Because they needed to look like they were doing something. They needed some heads to show to Congress, and some bodies to throw to the wolves among the fans and media. There was literally nothing that an investigation of the past could do to clean up the future, except maybe scare some guys straight.
I think all I have learned today is the real reason people hate Barry Bonds. Clemens is no different from Bonds, yet the fallout about Roger will be nowhere near the fallout then Bonds. Will we began to speak of Clemens like we speak of Bonds.
No Mel.
Its Pete’s blog. You don’t like what he writes, go somewhere else.
Who the hell is anybody to tell the founder of this blog what to write?
What have we learned today? Well, we learned that some members of the media, and well as a LOT of regular joe’s need a remedial course in Constitutional Law.
You do have the right to face your accuser. A person accusing you of something, without any cross examination, is NOT a complete story of anything.
Michael Kay has it wrong. You don’t respond INSTANTLY to allegations when you are an active player. You get all your info together, THEN respond.
Geez, too many members of the talk show ranks just want folks to talk (like they do) without preparing what to say.
Perhaps McNamee is telling the truth.
Conversely, perhaps he is a guy who will say ANYTHING to stay out of jail.
Right now, we don’t know what the truth is. I sure as hell am not ready to take the word of a guy facing jail time, without being cross-examined, over a people who have done nothing in their lives (as far as we know about) that would even hint of impropriety.
At this point, I prefer to wait and hear BOTH SIDES of the story before drawing conclusions.
After reading McNamee’s testimony, there are just too many inconsistencies to take his word at face value.
It will be interesting to see if his testimony holds up after further review.
No, Mel…I can’t see it.
Brian McNamee was under Federal Investigation for selling controlled substances & tax evasion. He repeatedly stated that Roger & others were not involved, but was left with a decision to face a long prison sentence or give the feds the info on names of those involved. To save his butt he gave them Roger.
Roger Clemens has cut ties with long-time trainer Brian McNamee. McNamee did not attend Clemens’ first bullpen session in Tampa Bay May 14. When questioned by reporters, Clemens “indicated that he had cut ties with the controversial trainer,”
McNamee helped create extensive workouts for both Clemens and Andy Pettitte. McNamee was hired as the strength and conditioning coach for the Yankees in 2000 with Clemens’ (and likely others) support. McNamee was not retained in 2002 after he was questioned by police in connection with an alleged sexual assault on a woman in a hotel pool late in the 2001 season. Police said the woman ingested the date-rape drug GHB. Charges were never filed against McNamee.
McNamee had previously been linked to the Jason Grimsley case. In an affidavit filed by IRS Special Agent, Jeff Novitzky, Grimsley reportedly had said that McNamee had referred him to a source that eventually provided Grimsley with anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs. The affidavit also stated that Grimsley had named Clemens and Pettitte as users of “athletic performance-enhancing drugs.â€
Proving slander of a public figure is very difficult….Clemens is a public figure….
the report was even weaker then I thought.. as peter said they had 2 sources the 2 NY guys at that was it….
Much ado about nothing;; Pudge Rodriguez not on the list… Really whom thinks he did not take any PEDS????Be real…...
gppd, i was hoping we could take all of the idiotic commentary from today and then inject politics into it. things weren’t bad enough in here.
To all criticizing Pete’s post.
I am as conservative as they come and I agree with Pete’s comment about Congress.
Not to put words in his mouth but I took it to mean that there is a war on, our guys are dying, and Congress has higher priorities than baseball players using PED’s.
It is the worst type of grandstanding, political theater. All show, no substance. Absolute BS.
Thank you for allowing me my short political comment for today.
Jimmy, Thanks.
Here’s the list:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071213&content_id=2325070&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Ugh. I hate all this “Roger = Barry” talk. Barry Bonds is a giant scumbag. Roger Clemens has not lied to a jury. Once that happens, then we’ll hate him.
These threads are coming faster than the snow flurries outside my window!
As I mentioned on an earlier thread, I’m not doubting that Clemens and Pettitte were using and mentioned their names along with Bernie Williams & Mike Stanton as potential cheaters last Month. What bothers me is that the “investigation†was conducted in a half-assed manner by limiting its scope of investigation and only naming
( by Mitchell’s own admission) a handful of players in comparision to the probable number of MLB cheaters. Its totally unfair to put the 85 names out there for them to undergo harsh scrutiny and disciplinary action without including the rest of the PED users.
The name of “Nomar Garciaparra†being left off the Mitchell List is a joke and gives you an idea of how biased this Report really is.
George Mitchell is a FORMER Senator from Maine and former chairman of the Disney Company as well as a current Director in the Red Sox Front Office. Surely, a lifelong policitian and lawyer would NEVER think of using favortism in cementing existing alliances and discrediting his foes….. right???????
I have to disagree. IMO steroids in baseball and all sports for that matter is a serious problem in this country. Kids look up to these athletes. We don’t need steroids to become a problem at lower levels like high school. Like any other drug the users are going to get younger and younger.For the record I feel the Mitchell Report was a waste of money but to get political that’s what polititians love to do is waste money amongst themselves and their committees.
To take it a step further, Jeff Novitzy’s tactics during these proceedings (he was also an investigator in the BALCO Case) has been controversial to say the least.
He has been accused by more than one witness of strong arm tactics.
As others have stated, the entire story is not yet written. Now, the players will have their chance to respond to the allegations.
Then we will get a chance to evaluate just how strong the evidence is against these players.
Bonds is not accused of lying to a jury but to a grand jury.. a little different…
but if what is said about clemens is true he is just like bonds(whom I assume took PEDS)...
again the point that bothers me is thye had 2 guys talk and that is where they got all but about 9 of the names from.. also even if what Mcnamee says is true, Pettitte took HGH for about 45 days while recuperating from an injury.. Is taking PEDS for 45 days different then taking them for 4 yrs.???? There are degree’s..
Maddog is really a baffoon, he literally is of low low IQ….
haha about as useful as carl pavano…classic.
Jim Clark go to Faux News.. This is a baseball site not a site for your remedial political views…...
The use of steroids among kids is an entirely different issue than what we are talking about today.
Nobody is doubting its a serious issue. I live in an area in which the controversial “Florida Phamarcy” is located.
However, let’s not mix the two issues. The issue here is, in some cases, single source testimony, without a paper trail, against some players who were named in the Report.
Sorry but, that’s just bad investigative tactics.
Basically, the Investigators acted as if, “You don’t talk to us, we are putting you in the Report”.
That’s not the way to conduct an investigation and its not the way to get steroids out of the hands of kids.
Its why you can’t mix the two issues. Each needs to stand on its own.
The issue some of us have with this Report is the single source and hearsay testimony it contains. It damages a lot of reputations without shedding any light on the issue of whether or not someone used PED’s.
Pete…I bet there are a lot of players breathing a “sigh” of relief….and are glad that an executive from the Red Sox organization was leading this “investigation”....
http://tenstarmusic.com/images/VaritekCheater.jpg
I am not talking about what Barry did in the courtroom, that is wrong, But if true, he did the same thing that Roger did, He lied to you and me.
The burden of proof in the Mitchell Witch Hunt, er ‘Report’ is remarkably shallow. Two guys who were facing jail time were coerced into aiding the ‘investigation’ and provide names. Their allegations make up the bulk of the investigation. Wow, that is a really classy report, especially considering the 50 or so million MLB dropped on it.
Once people shed their Yankee bias and dig deeper in the document, they will see how embarrassing this report really is. Chalk up another loss for the Selig tenure.
Not that this is possible at all, but just for example, if Randy Levine did the steroid investigation, how many Yankees would have been implicated? Mitchell is the director for the Red Sox.
Hey Pete why no mention of Andy Pettitte on this post.Seems like many people here were bashing Santana and saying Andy is a ACE.Why so quiet.
Well said LathamJoe. I just said the same in a long winded email to a buddy of mine that is a Whitesox fan. If Bud wanted the report, that’s fine, but without a broader investigation, no names should have been included. The intent should have been to identify the problem and continue to strive for better testing and stiffer penalties.
For Bud to brush off any responsibility in this during his press conference is laughable. He rode the backs of some of the worst allaged abusers (not named taoday) building baseball back up and then wants no blame when the proverbial stuff hits the fan. He only wants to focus on the future where he is concerened, but wants to punish others for the past. Hypocracy.
Its Pete’s blog. You don’t like what he writes, go somewhere else.
Who the hell is anybody to tell the founder of this blog what to write?
What have we learned today? Well, we learned that some members of the media, and well as a LOT of regular joe’s need a remedial course in Constitutional Law.
You do have the right to face your accuser. A person accusing you of something, without any cross examination, is NOT a complete story of anything.
Short of there being state action, due process rights do not attach. MLB is not a state actor.
From an optics and public relations perspective, it would behoove MLB to offer them anyway.
haha Jim Clark you baffoon your attitude is exactly why the people bounced your kind out of congress. I’m sure Rove needs a hug, you should go and oblige.
if anyone read any of my comments over the last few days I always stated that to m the most important thin would be the threshold with which Mitchell used to compile this report. Well it seem after reading i there was no threshold. SOme names were out out there with more than one witness, some names were put out there with backin documentation ie checks,fedex slips etc, Other well just heresay or one persons interviews with NO other documentation.
I believe that this story is far from over and there are more than a few players that will challenge this. Others will just want to let bygones be bygones as they are not active in any way shape or form with the baseball.
That includes you too STUART!
I thought the FAUX News was as clear an example of the Mitchell report as I could think of! Maybe if he said “FAIR & IMBALANCED” instead of FAUX it would have been better.
Most posters on this site are upset that the scope was find those Yankees and call it a LEAGUE investigation. Murdoch would be proud!
SJ – I agree that the Mitchell report seems to be a failure but to say congress has more important tasks than streroids in baseball is where I have the problem.Not saying steroids is most important on their list of tasks , just saying they shouldn’t just forget about it either(which seems to be some posters opinions). Congress is big enough to handle more than just the war.
The Players Union made a mistake in cooperating in this investigation.
At a minimum they should have struck up an agreement for the players whose names did come up to speak to the investigators in a proactive fashion.
Because they elected to have nothing to do with it, their voice was completely left out of it.
Instead of proactively addressing the issue and trying to influence how the report was written – even if that was getting their own statements of denial into the official body of the report – they let the two voices of guys under prosecution looking to cut a deal stand alone.
That’s just bad tactics.
I meant to write a mistake in not cooperating in this investigation.
LETS GO BACK TO TALKING BASEBALL. MICTHELL REPORT IS NOT BASEBALL. I SMELL SPRING TRAINNG…....... GO YANKS
Howdy people,
I posted some links to studies which question whether HGH actually has any ‘performance enhancing’ abilities earlier, but they seem to have been lost in the shuffle. The articles are an interesting read and a quick perusal may influence your opinion of Andy Pettitte (and others that have been implicated for HGH usage) moving forward.
Some links for those interested in HGH research:
via Sabernomics:
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/04/i-dont-worry-about-hgh-in-baseball-and-neither-should-you
Via slate.com
http://www.slate.com/id/2162473/nav/tap1/
Enjoy yourself today SANDBOY!
The Pure Boston Red Sox will choke this year like they have for about 88 years out of the last 90. It was kind of sad from the Yankees perspective to see Boston actually win the division last year after the Yanks winning so many. I hope no NYY reporters start their own investigations of the bloody sox team and publish their findings on heresy. Ortiz, Rameriz, Varitek, Schilling, & others might be feeling Andy & Roger’s pain.
Why I bet the YES network could even fund it! LOL!
I, for one, am more apt to believe Rocket than I am some vagrant trying to work out a plea deal. The same with Andy, whose response differed from Rocket’s, I think, because he’s still an active player.
Did anyone serious think Clemens would try another comeback this year? I think he knows his body is not up to it.
Sen. Mitchell hurt himself in my opinion. He presents the testimony of an individual who has a lot to gain in giving said testimony as fact. The checks could have been for anything. There is nothing more that ‘he said, she said’ evidence that anyone did anything. I don’t doubt that a great number of players juiced. Sen. Mitchell will have to answer a lot of questions about his work, but there’s almost no way he’ll ever put himself in that position again.
Also, whether or not HGH was banned by mlb is irrelevant, as it it illegal to use a prescription drug for anything other than its intended use.
CB,
They couldn’t make that agreement. They had no say on who the investigator was going to be for this case. The decision was made unilaterally (and against CBA Rules) by Selig.
That being the case, it was clear from the outset (to the players) this would be a witch hunt against the players.
The great advantage of good lawyering is to go second. By that, I mean, its much easier to face your accusers than be involved in an investigation without having any input on whom the investigator would be. The Union now has that opportunity.
No question, Congress can investigate this issue and deal with the War. However, going after baseball players isn’t the way to do it. Its about going after the drug companies that produce this stuff, the Pharmacies that sell the over the counter stuff, and tighten FDA approval of new drugs/supplements.
For that, it would mean taking on the drug lobby. Something Congress is loathe to do since the drug lobby is VERY good to Congress.
Unlike, of course the MLBPA, which they can hammer in a hearing and get immediate approval from talking heads in the media and uninformed fans.
I have no problem with Congress trying to stem the problem of teenage steroid use. Its their methods, or lack thereof, that I take issue with.
I tend to agree with JDnot Drew,
Congress would err to not address a fixable problem. There were kids on my High School baseball team juicing that could barely make the team. Some would have older brothers that were good players, and steroids could help them bridge the gap.
Steroids can be bought at any local gym. The dealers approached me as a skinny 17 year old.
A particularly disturbing excerpt from the report:
I also investigated other allegations that some players received advance notice of tests in 2004. In April 2004 federal agents executed search warrants on the two private firms involved in the 2003 survey testing, Comprehensive Drug Testing, Inc. and Quest Diagnostics,Inc.; the warrants sought drug testing records and samples for ten major league players connected with the BALCO investigation. In the course of those searches, the agents seized data from which they believed they could determine the identities of the major league players who had tested positive during the anonymous survey testing.
So the Feds raided these offices to determine the results of confidential drug tests. And I thought it was just my liberal friends being paranoid when they complain about violation of civil liberties. These people are out of control! Maybe if we had a real AG in DC the past two years this might not have happened.
George Mitchell can be upset all he wants and blame the other teams club attendants,GMs or front office people, I mean to say they knew about it isn’t my problem, yet Mitchell being a FO official for the Red Sox going through 2 years of investigation and you mean to tell me in those 2 years through your own staff you find 1 Red Sox ?, yet you find guys w/ ease like Justice , like Vina, Roberts, Frank Thomas, Toronto player Howie Clark. Yet only 1 Red Sox is in this report, how is the public suppose believe his search is legit when in his own house he failed to get the task done ? ...
Um, how is being against soldiers against killed in Iraq being “political”?
I would assume that whatever side you’re on, you’re against the death of our soldiers, no? I get e-mails all the time from kids in Iraq and I’d like to see those folks live so they can come back here and watch a Yankees game.
If that’s political, then I am being political I guess. Peter Abraham: Against Kids Dying. I’ll stand by that. If you’re in favor of kids dying, I suggest you volunteer to take somebody’s place in Iraq. I’m sure they’ll find room for you.
“Telling us Chuck Knoblauch did something wrong seven years ago is meaningless.”
Whatever Koblauch did – it sure didn’t help him throw a stinking ball from 2nd to first on a routine grounder.
yeah Nomar is not on the list.. UMMMMMMM.. Look at Nomar and tell me he does not fit the profile of a PED guy!!!!!!How about Trot?????
again the only people they got were from the met clubhouse guy, the yankee conditioning guy, and balco…. the pharmacy in FLorida did not give them much….
62 days to go.
Good points SJ. At some point if you can’t stop the drug companies than you have to eliminate their market. This may be why they are going after players/dealers instead of the companies themselves.
so with this report, can the yanks get out of giambi huge contract??
Well Said Peter!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe we should have the Draft again so we can weed out who really is not patriotic with them or their kids parading in IRAQ.
I am against kids dying!!!
“That being the case, it was clear from the outset (to the players) this would be a witch hunt against the players.”
SJ44,
That’s exactly why the players should have gotten involved, IMO.
I know they had no say on who or how the investigation would be carried out – but they could have negotiated with Mitchell.
How official reports get written is a strange, capricious process.
Again, in my opinion its better to get out ahead of a story like this, particularly in a document which is going to carry historical significance as long as baseball continues.
It’s this report which is going to continue, in what ever capacity, to mark the history of this period – good or bad. It’s the report that will be referenced and read.
I particularly think because so much of the evidence was hearsay it would have been advantageous for the players to speak to Mitchell.
If they had spoken to him – their voices and their side of the story would have had to been included in the report at least in parallel to the narrative Mitchell constructed from those two guys.
Mitchell would not have been able to just ignore what they said in response to hearsay evidence.
They’ll all lawyer up now – but that’s just going to feed into everyone’s cynacism. There are advantages to going second.
But in going second its a purely reacitive role. You can refute – but you’re already outside the original story.
Lawyers also don’t carry that much weight in the court of public opinion – where this whole story has been played out.
I think going second would have had advantages if this was legal proceeding.
It’s a cynical age – people have long since stopped listening to the public pronouncements of confessions of denial and press releases put out by lawyers.
Could be wrong – just my impression. I think the players are in a bad spot now because its impossible to effectively contradict hearsay once its in the report unless you can get the accuser to admit he was lying.
I don’t see those two guys doing that, especially because their statements to Mitchell were part of their plea bargins.
hahah yesss! nice retort Pete. Zing!
Or get out of Andy Pettitte big contract:)
So does this mean that Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero and IRod are now officially clean and can be elected to the HOF without question.
See what a farce this was.
“Tell you what, once no more kids are getting killed in Iraq you can worry about Paul Lo Duca sticking a needle in his butt.”
Thanks Pete, spot on. Seems to me that Hearings on this topic at this time would represent a complete loss of perspective. That is precisely why I expect them to occur.
You have to be kidding me asking that question. The Yankees cannot get out of Jasons contract.
stuart, gargoyle and everyone else who keeps bringing up people who weren’t on the list. this isn’t the final list. its just a list of people how have been linked to roids and hgh according to the yankees ex training and the mets ex clubhouse attendant and whoever wanted to talk. THAT’S IT.
just because sosa and irod weren’t on the list doesn’t mean they are clean. they could be, but we probably will never know.
so stop speculating that there is some sort of conspiracty.
“For that, it would mean taking on the drug lobby. Something Congress is loathe to do since the drug lobby is VERY good to Congress”.
SJ44:
At the risk of straying from the topic of Baseball, let’s not paint the drug lobbyists with such a broad stroke; the majority of pharmacuetical manufacturers contribute more to human health and quality of life than those who may cause harm.
Spread the word, yell it from the rooftops”
GEORGE MITCHELL WAS AND IS A RED SOX PAID OFFICIAL!!!
The only purpose of this “investigation” was to damage Pettite’s reputation and confidence.
It’s time for the Yankees to step up and win.
Dear Pete,
Thank you for saying what you did about the war in the above post. The Mitchell Report is political because this is an investigation that involves government and legislative offices.
I think it is also important for us to realize that in terms of priority, our outrage may be better directed at more pressing issues, like this destructive war, rather than millionaire athletes who take illegal substances.
As an Iraqi American, there is not a day that goes by that I do not weep for both sides of the conflict. I wish I could fully enjoy the escape that baseball has been all my life, but this is impossible when I know what is happening every day for the past 5 years 6,000 miles away.
Salaam (Peace),
Moussa
Giambi’s contract is an albatross, save for a few pinch hit home runs in games that have long been over.
You know, we had a lot of kids—including some MLB players—fighting and dying in World Wars I and II. No one human likes that troops die in their ventures, and we wish them godspeed. Supporting our troops is important, and I thought Pete was reflecting that.
This is a management report. I find it somewhat shocking that management chose to “investigate” players without negotiating a buy in from the player’s association and then published names, in some cases, based on solely on one person’s accusation. This report relies on information from a couple of people who were forced to talk to them. Mitchell did nothing on his own. Since the main person who talked to them was from the New York area, of course you have a lot of players associated with the Yankees and Mets. This creates the impression that there is a much bigger problem in New York than anywhere else.
Pete, this was one of your best columns EVER!!!
Moussa,
Very well said. That person who got all over Pete for mentioning the war was just sad. It tells you how effective efforts to sanitize the war from the public’s consciousness have been. The notion that real people are dying is just erased from how Iraq is discussed.
It speaks volumes that congress is itching to get their fingers on Mitchell in the middle of a war without end, a war in which people die by the dozens everyday.
Salaam to you.
George Mitchell can be upset all he wants and blame the other teams club attendants,GMs or front office people, I mean just to say they knew about it isn’t my problem, yet Mitchell being a FO official for the Red Sox going through 2 years of investigation and you mean to tell me in those 2 years through your own staff you find 1 Red Sox ?, yet you find guys w/ ease outside of the Red Sox to implicate like Justice , like Vina, sources like Brian Roberts, Frank Thomas, Toronto players like Howie Clark. Yet only 1 Red Sox is in this report, how is the public suppose believe his search is legit when in his own house he failed to get any meaningful sources ? …
Are we to believe he conducted a thorough search and all his club sources which should have been an example towards his un-bias character in this investigation was warranted ? you mean you can find sources on everyone else’s team yet in your own house through these same 2 yrs. not one player let me fix that (not on Red Sox player) is used as a cooperative club house source, not a GM, or a former GM or a former assistant, I’m sorry but I seriously have and will continue to question the legitamacy of this man’s report.
How hard was the walk from Fenway’s owners box to the trainers room ?
Watching Selig at the podium making an ass of himself was positively hilarious. He’d get booed off the stage at a high school graduation ceremony. He has the impact of a popcorn fart.
This whole report is a sham in so many ways. I wrote an article on my web site making fun of the entire process (riverascutter.wordpress.com) and it turns out I was really not that far off.
HGH, since there is no reliable test for it yet, and it doesn’t have to be injected, but can be given by oral spray, is likely to be continued by athletes, especially those trying to recuperate from an injury. If you’re a major league team, paying a starting pitcher 15M/year, equivalent to about $750,000 per start, an injury affecting your ability to compete and keeping you out of the workplace, should be treated in such a manner, under the supervision of a physician, to get you back to work ASAP. If HGH “is” to be proven safe, it should be allowed to be used for its healing powers, much like a steroid dose pack might be used for an acute exacerbation of asthma.
Therefore I believe Andy Pettitte was probably using HGH for the right reasons, but probably wasn’t smart enough to seek advice about it first with a physician.
the todd;
If the purpose of this investigation was to move forward with a strong MLB anti-drug abuse policy and (Mitchell’s own recommendation) not pursue discplinary action against past abusers, then why publish any names??
Could this have turned out to be any more worthless?
20 mths of investigation, and 68% of his names come from a NY Mets clubhouse boy. Did every other lead besides the three mentioned not pan out?
What about Paxton Crawford, who admitted to using HGH and seeing them in the clubhouse? Was that lead mentioned at all (seriously, I don’t know). I think it would’ve turned up quite a few names for Mr. Mitchell’s favorite team.
The whole thing was just so that MLB could say thy did something. A complete waste of time and money, which would’ve been much more well spent on test devedopment and the like.
I hope the liberals keep bitching about the war. If the surge keeps working at the rate it has so far the last few months, Iraq will be far down on the list of important issues by next Nov., and the anti-American Dems will snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.
As of now HGH is only legally approved for muscle wasting diseases, such as HIV/AIDS,deficiency of HGH with Pituitary tumors, and children of short stature secondary to deficiency HGH.
There still is not known the long term side effects of chronic HGH use, such as cancer or some reports say it accelerates the aging process.
I hope the liberals keep bitching about the war. If the surge keeps working at the rate it has so far the last few months, Iraq will be far down on the list of important issues, and the anti-American Dems will snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory!
In other news, Britney stayed home today. No known incidents.
Peter,
For this reason it is political:
You make the statement, “once no more kids are getting killed in Iraq you can worry about Paul Lo Duca sticking a needle in his butt.” This necessarily implies that Congress’s sole purpose is to resolve its most important issue.
There are two problems with this. First, it fails to recognize that Congress must address issues of varying importance. Second, it assumes the conflict in Iraq is worse than a steroid culture of adolescents and teens.
Your second assumption is the more “political” of the two. Some would argue that despite troops being killed in Iraq, their service is noble and necessary (incidentally, I don’t). I appreciate your blog and your insight, but in this reader’s opinion, your strengths are better suited in the baseball arena—so as not to get your audience distracted, ostracized, or both.
Again, I appreciate your work and respectfully submit this comment.
Latham Joe,
If the purpose of this investigation was to move forward with a strong MLB anti-drug abuse policy and (Mitchell’s own recommendation) not pursue discplinary action against past abusers, then why publish any names??
Excellent point and among the first of many contradictions, omissions and suppositions to be found in this report. I have been reading itin between posts and the first 150 ages or so is simply a summary of the report then a rehash of every steroid reference in the media and baseballs lack of action on the topic. It starts to get interesting in that it starts laying out how they got the names shortly thereafter.
The Mitchell Report proves yet again the joke proportions the Commissioner’s Office has become. The next time (and there will be a next time) that any type of report comes forward, who is to take it seriously after this fiasco ? Hiring a government official to oversee a $ 60M report is like handing keys to a car thief. Compound that with the government official being a director of a team and we get what we got.
Ricky Jimmies,
Exactly how is sacrificing one’s life for country not noble?
You undermined your entire argument with that statement. You really don’t want to go there pal.
Wow!! Jimmie & Helen sound like scared Red Sox fans in September. What is with your Holier than thou attitude come from? Are you as PURE as the Red Sox droid users?
Get a life or get on the campaign trail or better yet go over to IRAQ and be the surge!
I can’t believe this crap!
What is the definition of Performance Enhancing Drugs? HGH, Steroids, or what about cortisone? What about lasik eye surgery making ones vision 20/10 instead of 20/20? Some things are obvious & others are less so.
YanksRule,
To clarify, and it doesn’t read the way I intended, I do not think that a continued presence in Iraq is necessary. The service our military is providing is most certainly noble.
I added that bit to advance my argument and in an attempt to show that my personal political feelings didn’t affect the neutrality of my argument.
Sorry for the error.
Yeah Helen the ‘surge’is working you muppet. Didn’t 41 Iraqi’s just lose their lives yesterday? Great surge.
Politics aside, I wonder if the moral really is “it’s not worth it.” Looks like the greatest hitter and maybe the greatest pitcher of all time were into this stuff. Maybe it didn’t help their careers—sure looks like it did—but it sure didn’t hurt them. Probably the reason that more stars aren’t in the report is that the stars are better insulated by their entourages. The borderline players are the ones who are going to grab at any chance they can get. The stars can be a little more choosy and cover their tracks a little better.
Pete –
Excellent job of putting the report into perspective with a great dollop of humor. Well worth the visit to your blog!
Mehdi, overall violence has been dropping since the surge began.
Moussa—Might be a bit late, but Salaam Alakum
Dude, guys
I was taking my final this evening, and the boy sitting next to meet spilt Pepsi ALL over my jeans and my desk (by accident) and there weren’t any other desks, so I . took. my,. friggin. final. on. the. FLOOR.
I enjoy this blog and agree with the larger points in the post, but we do not need to hear a sportswriter’s opinions on the war in Iraq. I don’t care whether you support or hate the war, but don’t call the soldiers and Marines “kids” when they’re more mature than the majority of people in this country. Have a little respect for the guys who put their necks on the line.
“Andrea
Ugh. I hate all this “Roger = Barry†talk. Barry Bonds is a giant scumbag. Roger Clemens has not lied to a jury. Once that happens, then we’ll hate him.”
If Clemens had never been a Yankee you might not feel that way.
Pete –
‘Kids’ are not only dying in Iraq, they are dying here in America from steroid use. Thousands of high schoolers are using and buying drugs trying to be like their sports heros. Mr. Donald Hooten addressed this issue when his own 17 year old son – the nephew of a MLB pitcher – hung himself.
Perhaps your neice and nephew are too young for you to be concerned…..
I’m foursquare against our soldiers dying at the hands of the enemy.
Calling them “kids” (especially repeatedly) is inappropriate.
As for the Mitchell Report itself, the Yankees need to make a strong statement to the commissioner that there will be hell to pay if they get f****d for something some reprobate accuses Andy Pettitte of doing five years ago.
For PETE sake…You gotta be kidding me with bull crap about Roger and Andy nursing injuries. They both used period. To make any excuse for them and than knock Barry Bonds (bad knees). And to say no names should have been mentioned because they didn’t fail any test is hippocrytacle. Barry Bonds didn’t fail any official test. And look at Rogers Clemens rookie card. Everyone says look at the size of BB head…Look at the size of Rogers since his rookie year. If he wasn’t a Yankee everyone who want his records thrown out. Yankee fans are egotistacle maniacs.