Vizcaino on the move
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- December
- 14
Luis Vizcaino reportedly has agreed to a two-year, $7 million deal with a team in the NL, likely Colorado although other teams were involved.
For The Viz, it will be his fifth team in the last five years. It’ll be interesting to see whether LaTroy Hawkins or Vizcaino has a better season. I can’t see giving Vizcaino $7 million after all those appearances last season.
The Yankees will receive a first-round “sandwich” pick as compensation.
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on Friday, December 14th, 2007 at 1:34 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
What happened to the 3 years offers he was receiving? Lol
Thats all it wouldve taken?????
He’ll do well in the NL Central. I wish him the best.
And we get a nice little draft pick, don’t we?
WTF????!!! That’s all he got. He was asking Linebrink money from the Yanks and gives the Brewers a discount??
enjoy the NL Central… to him, I bet it’ll be like going back to AAA… probably even sporting a 3+ era.
Does anyone know where that draft pick will fall?
We get a draft pick. We got the better end of the deal.
IMO, the difference between Hawkins and Viz is marginal. Even though he signed a 2 year deal, compared to the 4 years he was asking for, I’m still glad we got the veteran reliever on a 1 year deal, and the supplemental pick, especially considering the young arms we’ve got rehabbing their way back this season.
i still like the move, hawkins and viz are pretty much the same player. essentially we “traded” viz for hawkins for a supplement round draft pick and 3.5 million dollars. unless viz puts up a 2.00 ERA i think the yanks got the better end of the deal because of the draft pick. Like it has been said before last 2 drafts ago the yanks drafted joba in the supplement round. who knows, maybe we’ll get another high end prospect.
Viz, was a type B – meaning a sandwich pick – from Milwaukee’s spot – I believe the Yankees get the 46th pick
man. that is just terrible english. I really need to proof read before I post. But, I also should be working and not posting. Oh well.
Does anyone know where that draft pick will fall?
We won’t know until every Type B free agent has signed, but worst case scenario it will be the 46th overall pick.
Let’s add up what the Brewers spent for their bullpen this off-season:
3 years, 13.5 million to David Riske.
2 years 7.0 million for the Viz.
2 years 10.0 million for Eric Gagne
That’s 30.5 million of GUARANTEED money. First year hit for the Brewers: 13 million for 3 guys in their bullpen.
Let that sink in for a minute. That’s a lot of coin for just “ok” guys.
On the baseball front…...If I’m Hank, I now overrule Cashman and do the Santana deal.
I do it for two reasons. One, to provide some cover for Pettitte because its going to be tough for Andy to be the “ace” or key guy on the staff AND have to deal with all this HGH stuff. You also guard against Pettitte deciding to just walk away.
Two, you need some big news to take the attention away from this stuff. Santana wasn’t in the report, is an ace, and its time Hank just pulls the trigger on it, even it means overpaying), at this point in the game.
You can find draft info here:
MyMLBDraft.com
WFAN is reporting that it’s the Rockies who signed him, not the Brewers.
Possibly somebody misheard…”Rockie” and “Milwaukee” does sound similar
SJ44
December 14th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Let’s add up what the Brewers spent for their bullpen this off-season:
3 years, 13.5 million to David Riske.
2 years 7.0 million for the Viz.
2 years 10.0 million for Eric Gagne—————actually, the Gagne contract was a one year deal.
Good luck to the Viz. Nice to see him find a home. All I can say is, thank goodness he moved out of the division. LOL.
I probably would do the Santana deal as well, but at what price. If the Twins are holding out for Buccholz and Ellsbury, what do you think the asking price is going to be for the Yanks?? Hughes/Kennedy/Melky?
I like Milwaukee’s moves so far. I think they realize that the bullpen kept them from winning the division. Their offense should be as good or better next year and their rotation looks solid.
That’s right. My bad. Lot of money for Gagne, at this point in his career.
Seems that FAN is reporting the Viz signed with the Rockies. If true, this was basically a one for one swap….the Viz for Hawkins.
SJ, you send Hughes and Kennedy and Melky for Johan? And then pay him 6/120 (7/140 is the initial offer from Johan’s agents, the real extension will be more like the original speculation, I suspect)?
Overpaying for political reasons is a bad way to run a baseball team, it seems to me.
“I like Milwaukee’s moves so far. ”
WHAT?
They’re doing what the Orioles did last year. Notice how that turned out?
The orioles are in a slightly tougher division. The Brewers just need to win 82 games to make the playoffs.
That bullpen is going to be awful. Gagne is done with the juice and Riske is a decent arm but, not a difference maker.
They lost a better closer in Cordero.
Sunny, I take Melky out of the deal and I put in Hughes, Kennedy, Marquez and Hilligoss. Overpaying? Perhaps.
But, look at it this way. Santana is only 29. Joba and Wang are also in the rotation. That’s 3 guys all under 30 in the rotation. I think Andy will play this year but, I don’t know about 2009.
Horne can be the 5th starter in ‘09 and you have other arms in the system who can battle for a rotation spot if Andy retires.
Not exactly a “bad” rotation.
I just think, given all this negativity surrounding the Yankees, you have to do something big to change the discussion.
“I like Milwaukee’s moves so far. ”
WHAT?
They’re doing what the Orioles did last year. Notice how that turned out?
There are key differences.
1- The Orioles haven’t been contenders for years. The Brewers contended this past season.
2- The Orioles are in the AL East. Brewers are in the NL Central, a much more winnable division.
3- Baltimore’s farm system is nowhere near Milwaukee’s
4- Milwaukee has a good core of players and are addressing a specific weakness, while Baltimore…well…I don’t know what they were thinking.
SJ44-
Great call on Johan! That would be huge, so the original deal of Melky, Hughes, Marquez & Hilligoss gets it done or another variation?
I meant to say Gagne is done WITHOUT the juice. My kingdom for an “edit” button! lol
Sandwich pick!
SJ44,
Cash will still probably get a Santana deal done. Let him use his patience and don’t be “overruling” him.
Yeah, I never do a deal because of politics. Hughes, Kennedy, Melky & $140 million for Santana. No thanks.
Thanx Mike R and Sunny615.
They have 80 million coming off the books next year.
They also will have some younger player vying for roster spots like Sanchez, Melancon, Jackson and, perhaps Tabata.
First year, you take a financial hit. In 2009, with a lot of money coming off the books and the opening of the new stadium (which means big bucks to the Yankees), you more than makeup for the hit you take on the payroll this year.
You have to adjust to the hand you have been dealt. IMO, I’d re-visit the Santana deal and see if it can get done.
Doesn’t hurt to give it one, last try.
He’s not using his patience to get a deal done with Minnesota. He isn’t looking to do the deal. Its different than the Abreu trade.
That 80 million has to do a lot though, bullpen, first base. What do you think it’ll take to sign Texiera?
I agree one last try isn’t a bad idea. Cash is hopefully is stealth mode. Also, who hits 3rd in ‘09?
SJ: I seem to recall you stating that the Yanks shouldn’t be held hostage by the Twins and shouldn’t overpay.
Mitchell report allegations shouldn’t change the baseball decision. Emotions can’t play into this.
Cano?
Meanwhile, what are the Brewers thinking???
Just like the O’s recent past. Signing middle relievers to high-dollar contracts when the rest of their team’s construction needs work.
thank you
The Report plays into it because of Pettitte. You don’t know what he is going to do, and how he is going to react, to all this stuff.
You are talking about a guy who was never comfortable in a highlighted role. Its why he never talks about being an “ace” of a staff. He is the very definition of a guy who likes to be below the radar.
Unfortunately, the Mitchell Report dooms that for him forever.
How will he react to that? Its a pretty important question if you are the Yankees.
Its why I re-visit the Santana talks.
Like it or not, the Mitchell Report does change things a bit for the Yankees. We will be foolish not to think so.
SJ44
December 14th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I just think, given all this negativity surrounding the Yankees, you have to do something big to change the discussion.——————-
That’s a lot of ouch just to change a discussion.
SJ44
December 14th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
The Report plays into it because of Pettitte. You don’t know what he is going to do, and how he is going to react, to all this stuff.
You are talking about a guy who was never comfortable in a highlighted role. Its why he never talks about being an “ace” of a staff. He is the very definition of a guy who likes to be below the radar.
Unfortunately, the Mitchell Report dooms that for him forever.
How will he react to that? Its a pretty important question if you are the Yankees.
Its why I re-visit the Santana talks.
Like it or not, the Mitchell Report does change things a bit for the Yankees. We will be foolish not to think so.———————-
Grimsley’s confession outted Clemens and Pettitte a year ago didn’t it? He still pitched. I understand the Mitchell Report is more “official” than Grimsley’s banter, but he’ll do what he always does and no respond.
I couldnt agree more about the Johan deal. I figured once he gets moved, it’ll trump all the Mitchell Report stuff anyway… and even better if he’s coming to the yankees.
its being reported today that santana is holding steady at a 7/140 request, and if thats true, there is no chance anyone but the yankees make that move… i dont even think the mets would go there.
If Hughes and IPK are in the deal, you should be able to pull back Melky… Thats only fair.
kd, do you honestly think that, between the bevy of bullpen arms in MLB and AAA in the Yanks’ system (two or three of them are bound to be effective, saving money that would be spent on the bullpen) and the 80 million of ANNUAL payroll coming off the books, they won’t be able to afford someone like Mark Teixeira? Or anybody else in all of baseball, for that matter?
Also, I’m not sure how Cash/Hank can revisit the talks without looking like they’re crawling back. They effectively “walked away” and to revisit now makes it seem to the Twins (IMO anyway) that they’re looking to get Santana and are now willing to pay the price. Which means, if I were Bill Smith, I’d ask for Hughes/Kennedy/Horne/Hiligoss.
Sunny,
It is but, its not like the Yankees can’t afford it.
Hank knew going in what the price was for Santana and didn’t bat an eye.
The money wasn’t the issue for the Yankees. It was the players the Twins requested in return.
All I am saying is, they may have to re-visit it because things have changed since yesterday and I’m not really sure anyone can accurately gauge what Andy is going to do.
Richard Justice, who knows Andy very well, thinks he may just retire. Me? I honestly don’t know.
I do know how uncomfortable he is going to be answering all these questions. Does he really want to go through with it? I don’t know but, its something the Yankees really need to know in fairly short order.
Also, in terms of the Baltimore comparason, the position players weren’t as good in B-More…Mora, TeHGHada, B-Rob, millar, aren’t as good as the Price, Weeks (who was injured much of last year), JJHardy & ROY Ryan Braun…that’s the notable difference I can spot, along with previous posters’ remarks about being in an easier division, etc.
*Price = Prince.
It has nothing to do with “crawling back”. It has to do with a change in market conditions.
Deals that are “over”, yet eventually get done, happen all the time in the business world.
The only ego involved is not the ego that gets you back into the talks. Its the ego that keeps you from re-visiting the talks.
If they can re-visit Arod, they can re-visit Santana.
Plus, they have the perfect reason. The Mitchell Report. It gives them their “out”.
If the media criticizes them, so what? I bet Yankee fans won’t be up in arms if they get Santana.
what a horrible idea to now jump and make a trade which was wrong before but we have to make it because Pettitte’s name came up on the Mitchell report for taking HGH when he was injured and wasnt playing anyway.
So we have to make a big splash in the newspapers to make people forget we have a guy who took HGH? I hope wouldnt do something so rash and ill thought.
I thought this was baseball.
Maybe I’m blind here, but I don’t see how the Mitchell Report gives the Yankees an “out” to revisit negotiations. And if Pettitte does retire, it just strengthen’s Bill Smith’s position on top of the Yankees trying to get out from under the cloud of the Mitchell Report. If the Yankees do revisit this deal, I can see Smith upping to price substantially.
Not just that Therston, but now Pettitte’s future is genuinely in doubt. It’s possible he may walk away from the game and we need to be ready to fill his spot.
Re the Viz,
It seems like his agent was banking on some “irrational exuberance” in the market for middle relievers asking for 4 years. Maybe some sanity is returning. However, Rockies or Brewers, it matters not, they still paid a lot for a guy whose shoulder was barking at the end of last year.
I don’t think the mitchell report is going to affect Petitte.
Nor do I think it justifies or necessitates going back to the twins to do a bad deal.
As if the Twins wouldn’t know why the Yanks suddenly got back in. The price would definitely increase which would only make a bad deal worse.
You deal from a position of strength, not weakness.
swo,
it’s not that i think they are lacking money, i think that they should spend it wisely. they obviously can afford tex and johan. the point is not to be committed to declining players for a lot of money, aka giambi. with all of the arms coming up, if they get under the cap, teams like florida and minny can’t just pocket yankee dollars anymore.
“Cap”? I think you might be confusing the luxury tax with revenue sharing.
Florida and Minnesota make money because the Yankees MAKE money, not because the Yankees SPEND money. Florida and Minnesota are pocketing plenty of Red Sox dollars too. Payroll has nothing to do with it.
However, I do agree with the desire to avoid further high-dollar, long-term contracts. I don’t think Teixeira would demand more than 20 million per year, but Johan definitely would, and I wouldn’t want to have 50 million of our payroll in 2015 dedicated to two aging ballplayers in A-Rod and Santana.
Reportedly, here is what is going to happen. Selig will hold a press conference with Kevin Costner in Innsbruck next week. There they will correct baseball history based on an Activision (ca. 1983) simulator that will cause the following results:
1. The Yankees will be stripped of the 2000 WS crown. New findings however indicate that Timo Perez and Bobby Valentine were juicing. So the World Series crown will be awarded by default to the Montreal Expos
(it’s a new rule: if both teams who played in the World Series have players who juiced the title goes to Montreal by default. It’s believed Bob Watson recommended the titles be given to the Devil Rays but that made everybody laugh so hard that Hi-C came out their noses.)
2. The Diamondbacks will be stripped of the 2001 World Series Championship because Craig Counsell was a heavy user of steroids. And because Schilling is just offensive in his being. Because the Yankees have suspected juicer Clemens on their team the title once again goes to the Montreal Expos.
3. The Angels are stripped of the WS crown because Scott Spezio is just ridiculous. And Troy Percival obviously juices. I mean, who the heck pumps their fist without juicing? Not so fast, San Francisco…we all know about Barry’s offenses, but what you didn’t know was that Dusty Baker’s kid was an abuser of Performance Enhancing Hugs.
Ladies and gentlemen, the 2002 World Champion Montreal Expos! Three-peat!!!!
4. OK, Josh Beckett. No more steroid fist pumps for you or the Florida Marlins. And we all know that Roger was on that 2003 Yankee team.
Félicitations a l’equipe de baseball de Montréal!!!
5. Heh..Oh, this is going to be good. Took them 86 years. AND THEY’LL WAIT EVEN LONGER!!! Boston Red Sox? NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!! Nixon, Varitek, Manny, Poopi, Schilling, come on down!!!
So, we know that Sheffield and Giambi were known users and the Yanks cannot be awarded the crown.
Make your reservations at Schwartz’s, my friends, and have some poutine while you wait because there’s a yet a fifth ticker tape parade scheduled for Sherbrooke Avenue!!!
Nous sommes le plus mieux!!!! Montreal Expos, World Champs in 2004!!!
6. Oh, dear. Ozzie Guillen, your mood swings and anger and intense homophobia can mean only one thing: YOU’RE A MORON!!! AND MORONS TAKE STEROIDS!!!!
Hmmm…and the Astros….hello Roger! Bye Roger!!!
Six in a row for the Montreal Expos!!!! What’s that you say? They moved to Washington in 2005?
Well, they never should have left! That’s right, Montreal is now THE baseball town. In fact, they’re thinking of moving the Hall of Fame to Ile Ste. Helene, where Expo ‘67 took place.
So, this is where the Nationals cease to exist, and baseball returns to Le Stade Olympique, where greatness happens and legends are made!
7. St. Louis. Home of the best ribs in the world, great music. And steroids. Sorry, Mr. Pujols.
And looking across to the other dugout, Slim Rodriguez doesn’t stand a chance.
Montreal Expos: 2006 Champs…The dynasty continues.
8. Oh, it’s fun again! Bake those beans, Boston fans, because the gas you pass finely illustrates the stink of your team. Captain Cheater, Manny, Gag me, and the gang—-you are the weakest link…GOODBYE!
And the Colorado Rockies clearly don’t matter so once again, may I introduce a team for the ages.
Your 2007 World Champion Montreal Expos. Oh, will it ever end!
Other developments: John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman are now the radio voices of the Expos. Hear him call a home run in French!
“Il est haut! Il est lointain! IL EST ALLÉ!!!!!!”
Hear Suzyn Waldman describe the scene as Celine Dion announces her presence to the Montreal fans from the owner’s box!
“Oh la la! Oh mon dieu! Oh, oh, oh! Oui! De tout l’excessif! Celine est dans le cadre d’Omar!”
All in good humor. Hope this dark period for the game ends soon. Many thanks to Peter for all his great work and giving us some perspective
I predict that the first round pick the Yankees got for Viz will turn out to be the next Nolan Ryan. I further predict that this will be for another team, as Hank will package Matsui and a minor leaguer (next Nolan Ryan) for an aging and overweight pitcher who once could be counted on for 12 wins per season in the day.
Or maybe not. I wonder if the Yanks’ would have sent both Hughes and Kennedy to the Twins for Santana if Cashman weren’t in the picture.
Ok, Thrillington’s post made me laugh; that was a good one
SJ,
I understand your point, but I disagree with your proposed revised offer, I would offer Hughes, Horne and Melky, sorry Kennedy needs to stay.
I believe Horne was off-limits before.
blargh i disagree. it was a pretty sh*tty attempt at humor that fell flat.
I completely and respectfully disagree about reversing gears on Santana. As has said before, you don’t compromise your plan or your valuations of players for political reasons—it’s that sort of thing that leads to mistakes in bidding and bargaining.
After you’ve made a valuation of a player, you should stick it it, particularly when you’re faced with a Winner’s Curse situation, which I think Cashman is acutely aware of. If Cashman wasn’t willing to part with Hughes/Melky/Horne before the Mitchell Report, he sure as Hell shouldn’t be willing to part with them afterwards.
Besides, there aren’t too many reports that the Red Sox and Twins have come any closer to a deal. There’s a decent enough chance that no move is made, and the Yankees can pluck Santana from the Free Agent market.
But that just underscores my initial point: don’t overbid for Santana, especially if you weren’t willing to overbid before.
Vizcaino is only getting $7m for 2 years….The reports last week made it seem like he was getting almost $15m. Cashman should of just gave him the money. I would of much rather they got him for the extra money then give Hawkins $4m and he will probably be soo bad that they will spend another $3-4m trying to replace him with kids in the minors. Viz was good for the most part last year, until Torre got his hands on him. If healthy he would of been fine next year, or atleast I would rather take a gamble on him again rather Hawkins who reminds me of Farnsworth.
Actually I can see how New Yorkers would question the Brewers since they have no idea what is going on. Our lineup is set and our biggest weakness is the bullpen. I don’t think we signed Vizcaino, we actually don’t need to. Gagne for one year is low risk. Signing Cordero was not an option with that contract. He was starting to tail off at the end of the year. Brewers should be the favorite in the Central. Cubs made splash moves but the Brewers have addressed their weaknesses.. Also, with that pitching staff the Yanks have, you might as well forget making the World Series. Your starting pitchers are a joke.
Crew – good luck with your predicitons… at least you have the Packers. Either way, saying the Brewers are the favorite in the NL Central is like saying Kathy Bates is better looking that Bea Arthur and Roseanne Barr.
Once again: Wang and Pettite last year were 34-16 with a 3.81 ERA in 423 innings.
The rest of the starters were 31-31 with a 5.21 ERA in 499 innings.
The relievers were 29-21 with a 4.35 ERA in 530 innings.
The Yankees don’t need Santana. If Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain can have a 4.35 ERA between them, they have a good chance of winning more than 95 games if the relievers are no better than last year.
The Viz was pretty much an average reliever for them last year. The problem is going to be replacing guys who were better than 4.35—Proctor and Chamberlain being the most prominent.
FYI according to Tom Haudricourt:
Vizcaino rumor is “complete garbage”
By Tom Haudricourt
Friday, Dec 14 2007, 02:37 PM
Brewers assistant general manager Gord Ash just made me laugh out loud. I asked him if there were any truth to the rumor floating around that the Brewers were going to sign free agent reliever Luis Vizcaino.
“You can put that one in the ‘CG’ circular file for Complete Garbage,” Ash said.
As I suspected, there was nothing to it. The Brewers already have signed four late-inning relievers. Why would they want another?
I’ll repeat the promise I made to you at the winter meetings: I will not post false rumors involving the Brewers on this blog. And those of you who do post them as fact in the “comments” file do a disservice to the others who read it and take it as gospel. There’s a lot of crap flying around this time of year.
Ash did explain the move of reliever Greg Aquino being put on waivers and being claimed today by Baltimore. Ash said they first considered non-tendering Aquino, who no longer fit in their plans for the start of 2008. Instead, they were able to sign him to a split contract ($500,000 for the majors, $176,00 for the minors) and then place him on waivers, hoping he would clear and report to Class AAA Nashville in the event they needed him down the road.
Ash said they knew all along Aquino might be claimed, and he was—by the Orioles. So, the Brewers will take the $20,000 waiver fee and move on. It did open a spot on the 40-man roster in the event the Brewers see a player they’d like to sign or trade for.
Ash said the Brewers were still considering both trades and signings but had nothing hot going at the moment.
I’m personally sorry to see Vizcaino go. I think he’s got much better stuff than Hawkins. I was all for letting him walk when he was rumored to want 4 years and $20 million but 2 years and $7 million doesn’t seem too much to me. I’m also a bit confused by people so enamored with the sandwich pick. Yeah, I know that those picks were converted into Joba and Kennedy when we lost Gordon. But you don’t get that lucky often. Its a pretty schizophrenic philosophy to think young stud pitchers grow on trees to be plucked with sandwich picks but that at the same time you can’t afford to include any in a trade to get Santanna, the best pitcher in baseball.
I’m still all for doing any of the Santanna trades mentioned but I always was and don’t really get how Pettite’s being named in the Mitchell report should factor in one way or another. Its much to do about nothing in my opinion.
At least Vizcaino didn’t insult our intelligence by saying he was insulted with a one year offer from the Yankees. Like one 67 year old man did two months ago.
Where are all the people that said the Viz was going to get 3 or 4 yrs?And like 4 Million per yr for a total of 12 Million?
I still would have taken The Viz back for that deal 2 yrs at 7.5 Million.Ill say it again…We knew what kind of pitcher he was for us in 2007.Who besides Mariano was somewhat reliable in the bullpen last yr??? Luis Vizcaino.
Its nice to get the pick,as a reward for losing your own free agent.I will miss having him as an option in 2008.
So ya got yer wish whozat…..