Clemens says injections were legal
-
- January
- 3
The 60 Minutes website reports that Roger Clemems admits he was injected with drugs but that they were legal ones.
I’ll be surprised if this situation ever gets settled beyond a reasonable doubt either way. It will ultimately be up to each of us to decide who we believe.
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on Thursday, January 3rd, 2008 at 4:34 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
flax seed oil or vitamin B12?
The first admission. I foresee this as a slippery slope of “well yes, but” statements from the Clemens camp.
Back to the Santana point there’s is no doubt in my mind that the Yankees should wait on this deal if the twins take it fine we’ll see if it pays out if they decide to keep him the better for us. On the Cano matter the yankees should sign him to a long deal he’s proven himself as a yankee and is about the best 2nd baseman you can get.
Apparently B12
the b12 defense? really?
When asked by Wallace if McNamee had ever injected him with any drugs, Clemens responds: “Lidocaine and B-12. It’s for my joints, and B-12 I still take today.”
Clemens calls the accusation “ridiculous” and says he “never” used any banned substances.
“Swear?” asks Wallace.
”[I] swear,” says Clemens.
Was Miguel Tejada the one injecting him?
Too bad Wallace didn’t ask Roger to swear on his mother’s grave. That would settle the whole thing.
Did he call Mcnamee a liar?
Should Roger be on the look out for a lawsuit?
It will not get settled beyond a reasonable doubt, IMO. It wouldn’t be American if that happened.
I once had Lidocaine injected into me. Then my dentist filled my cavity.
I think there’s B12 in my multivitamin.
I’m contacting my agent. I stand to become a millionaire!
Now wouldn’t Roger be able to prove this? If he had documentation that B-12 and lidocane were purchased.
where’s Stossal when ya needem? Hey Rawjah gimme a break.
This doesn’t pass the laugh test.
Since when is Lidocaine injected into the ass? Thought is was done in the joint itself?
Clemens and Bonds become more and more alike every day.
If Roger thinks anyone is going to believe this garbage he is dellusional. Is there any chance that Roger takes questions from reporters at his press conference on Monday?
I personally would only let a licensed doctor/nurse or someone else qualified to inject me with anything.
B-12? They sell B-12 over the counter and you can take it by mouth, why would anyone need to be injected with B-12? Only a very small amount is even needed in the body.
“Since when is Lidocaine injected into the ass? Thought is was done in the joint itself?”
I was going to just ignore you, but what the hell. When did Clemens ever say it was injected in his buttocks?
What about Cortisone? Did Clemens not have that injected as well?
Lidocaine and B-12 for Clemens’ joints? You’d think after the furor over Palmiero and Tejada and the disputed B-12 shots, Clemens wouldn’t fall back on that as a possible injectable.
And I’m surprised Clemens didn’t name cortisone, which is the standard LEGAL DOCTOR-PRESCRIBED treatment for joints (as in inflammation, i.e., tendinitis, bursitis, etc.). Lidocaine is a painkiller, as some of you have already posted; it’s a dangerous “substitute” for reduction of inflammation and rest of joints.
And the only way most athletes should need vitamin B-12 supplements is if they’re anemic, have Crohn’s disease, are vegetarians…or pregnant.
From Canseco’s book (Juiced, p. 211):
”[T]rainers would jokingly call the steroid injections ‘B12’ shots….
“I’ve never seen Roger Clemens do steroids, and he never told me that he did. But we’ve talked about what steroids could do for you, in which combinations, and I’ve heard him use the phrase ‘B12’ shot with respect to others.”
ESPN’s already casting for the movie, “Separated at Birth”.
This is just a sad, sad day.
“When did Clemens ever say it was injected in his buttocks?”
– As per Francessa from the 60 Minutes interview.
Wasnt h.g.h. not a banned substance at that time?
My follow up question would have been have you taken a clear or cream without knowing?
Not enough unless he crosses his heart and he takes his shoes and socks off to make sure his fingers and toes arent crossed.
”...Clemens admits that he was injected with drugs but that they were legal ones.”
Of course he does. Now if McNamee pulls a CSI and produces a hypodermic with his DNA on it, there’s a perfectly logical explanation. Or if there’s some insurance company blood sample from ‘01 sitting in a warehouse somewhere that could potentially be subpoened and tested, blame McNamee for slipping something by him.
Is anybody really surprised about the B12 injection admission? It sets up plausible deniability. Unless there is something to corroborate McNamee’s word, for now it’s a stalemate. Roger will of course have to demur on questions about whether he supervised the filling of the syringes that McNamee used to inject him. (“I never watched McNamee fill the needles. I trusted him. Do you watch your doctor fill the needles before he gives you a shot?”) Without calling Mcnamee a liar, Roger has given his lawyer all he needs to take it from here.
Rusty Hardin: “Aw, shucks, nobody’s calling McNamee a liar. I suppose unfortunately that there’s chance that McNamee could be telling the truth to a degree, but gosh I hope not because that would mean that MacNamee slipped Roger some very dangerous drugs that could have caused him some serious health problems. By the way, that McNamee was accused of slipping drugs to a lady in order to rape her wasn’t he? I think I read that somewhere… Anyway, since Rocket’s never had any of the injuries commonly linked to steroids and never failed a test, and he has steadfastly denied that he ever took that stuff, we’re pretty confident that Roger’s going to be OK in the long run. Why would McNamee say such things if they weren’t true, you ask? Well, goshsakes, I think the record speaks for itself. Brian is a troubled man and Rocket wants y’all to know he wishes Brian well and hopes it turns out all right for him and his family.
”- As per Francessa from the 60 Minutes interview.”
So, Mike Francessa specifically said that during the 60 minutes interview Clemens mentions being injected with B-12 in his buttocks?
Is anybody really surprised about the B12 injection admission? It sets up plausible deniability.
Only for the gullible.
It strains credulity to believe that a world class athlete, who makes a living off his body and takes extraordinary care of it, with more access to doctors than any person not in an ICU unit, would rely on a “trainer” to inject him with drugs and other substances, especially in an era when the risk from unsanitary needles is well known to all.
It’s the smart play by Clemens, gotta hand it to him. Play the I didn’t know card. He’s obviously lying, but if he stands by his story, there is no official resolution. I for one, hate the whole topic and pray for the day when real baseball stories are the main topics of discussion.
Francessa said the promo for the 60 minutes interview does not say where he was injected.
“So, Mike Francessa specifically said that during the 60 minutes interview Clemens mentions being injected with B-12 in his buttocks?”
Francessa: “I’ve had B-12 injects and they hurt, real bad. But I’ve had them many times and never have I had them, nor heard of them being injected into your rear end. I don’t understand why he’d get them there and not directly into the joints.”
When is Knoblauch getting on 60 Minutes?
there’s a reason why B12 is injected instead of taking as an oral supplement. it doesn’t work well going trough the digestive system. injecting B12 is not synonymous with injecting steroids.
clemens either took peds or he didn’t ,but saying he injected B12 doesn’t prove anything either way. i’m getting the feeling that some people on this blog haven’t ever passed a logic class.
Nice heads up by Wallace to the Steinbrenners. Hank makes his comment about not wanting to bring Roger back before this hits the fan. Of course, it could be because they got burned the last time they brought him back.
Hey Pete, thank youso much for putting Sliding Into Home on your blog roll.
Say it ain’t so: What would Wallace ask him? How it feels to hit that dude’s mother in the head?
B-12 and Lidocaine??? Does he expect us to believe that?
Lidocaine is an anethsetic that dentists use and is used to treat skin inflamation. It would NOT be something you would inject a large dose of unless you really wanted to numb that particualr area. OR if you had a serious arhythmia in which case, professional athletics wouldn’t be an option.
B-12? Whatever. It’s not going to extend a pitching career.
there’s a reason why B12 is injected instead of taking as an oral supplement. it doesn’t work well going trough the digestive system. injecting B12 is not synonymous with injecting steroids.
clemens either took peds or he didn’t ,but saying he injected B12 doesn’t prove anything either way. i’m getting the feeling that some people on this blog haven’t ever passed a logic class.
I have had numerous B12 injections, but all of them were done by a doctor.
Any reasonable person would do the same.
That Clemens claims otherwise is extremely revealing about his true intentions, i.e., saving his butt.
most of you must not have read the report. Clemens’ statements on being injected w/legal substances do not give him any sort of wiggle room; rather, this would be consistent w/his claims that the report is inaccurate. Here’s the deal:
Mitchell’s report has McNamee claiming that Clemens supplied the steroids supposedly injected in 1998. In 2000 & 2001, McNamee says he supplied the stuff being taken, and that he discussed this w/Clemens.
So, when Clemens says he took injections of legal substances only, this is a clear, unequivocal denial of what McNamee alleges. Only someone who hasn’t read the report could interpret this as a ‘flaxseed oil’ type of defense!
Can Clemens keep the waters muddied for a full five years so he still has a shot at the Hall? I don’t think so. There’s got to be more people out there who know the real truth, and sooner or later…
Greg,
Checked out your blog. Nice pix, how’d you get them?
btw. Did you guys read about the Bucs trying to sell their playoff tix only to Floridians? Mr. Cuomo set them straight. lol
Rebecca,
Who’s mother? Wasn’t Olbermann’s mother hit by someone?
Whose
I found them on various sites around the net, flickr, photobucket etc.. some on other message boards. As soon as I find a new one I post it.
“And I’m surprised Clemens didn’t name cortisone, which is the standard LEGAL DOCTOR-PRESCRIBED treatment for joints (as in inflammation, i.e., tendinitis, bursitis, etc.). Lidocaine is a painkiller, as some of you have already posted; it’s a dangerous “substitute†for reduction of inflammation and rest of joints.”
Lidocaine is an local anesthetic; to my (medical) knowledge, it has NO ANTI-INFLAMMATORY effect whatsoever. As for it being “DANGEROUS SUBSTITUTE,” it’s just as bad as a cortisone shot because it masks symptoms therefore, you can actually injure your body more when you try to work through an injury.
“It strains credulity to believe that a world class athlete, who makes a living off his body and takes extraordinary care of it, with more access to doctors than any person not in an ICU unit, would rely on a “trainer†to inject him with drugs and other substances, especially in an era when the risk from unsanitary needles is well known to all.”
It is not unusual for patients/caregivers to be trained to do subcutaneous/intramuscular injections, much like what you would do for insulin and other injectable supplements. Intra-articular injections of lidocaine is probably needs more technical expertise but physical therapist/nurse/non-MD health professionals can do them. I’m not sure if McNamee is one.
That said, the B12 and Lidocaine arguement still shady. Sounds like Bonds’ “not knowingly” arguement. I have to watch it to fully judge it.
That’s “Whose mother?”
Greg,
Shucks. I thought you had an “in” at the new stadium. Thanks, though. Nice to see it fleshing out.
It is not unusual for patients/caregivers to be trained to do subcutaneous/intramuscular injections, much like what you would do for insulin and other injectable supplements. Intra-articular injections of lidocaine is probably needs more technical expertise but physical therapist/nurse/non-MD health professionals can do them. I’m not sure if McNamee is one.
Isn’t that usually because they lack easy access to doctors or are trying to save money? Neither of those reasons applies to Clemens.
Hello, Jane.
That’s why I put quotation marks around “substitute” in the sentence ” ‘substitute’ for [cortisone for] reduction of inflammation…” It’s NOT a substitute. It is implied by Roger Clemens that it was USED as a substitute which is obviously not either logical or medically appropriate.
whoa:
“I have had numerous B12 injections, but all of them were done by a doctor.
Any reasonable person would do the same.
That Clemens claims otherwise is extremely revealing about his true intentions, i.e., saving his butt.”
I can’t say you are wrong about Clemens wanting to save his butt, but….
Athletes have a need for quasi-medical attention all the time. (Frankly, I think Gene Monahan comes thisclose to practicing medicine without a license). It’s just not practical to ask an athlete like Clemens to see a doctor every time he needs something like a vitamin injection. If diabetics can inject themselves with prescription-only drugs like insulin, why is it so unreasonable to suggest that Rocket injected himself or had his trainer do it?
I’m leaving now. All the talk on this thread has me thinking of a big turkey being injected with a savory “concoction” of secret herbs and spices. When I think about Roger now, all I can picture is his big white butt. I hope this will fade in time. I need help.
mel:
Good luck. (Guess we’re not having turkey at your house next Thanksgiving).
Not speaking to the truth of the arguments here. But. Clemens arguably spent more time with his trainer than with anyone else. If the trainer is able to do injections, of any type, why not have him do them to save a trip to the doctor? Yes, he can afford to go to the doctor, but why, if he doesn’t have to?
Second, just because people can afford things doesn’t mean they like to spend the money on them. If someone is already paying a trainer who may be able to perform an additional service at no extra charge, why pay a second professional, if you have trust in that trainer or whoever?
A lot of times people who have money do not like to spend it on things they think would be extraneous. Just sayin’. Like the guy you know who makes more than you do, but haggles over the check every time you go to a restaurant together, splitting everything evenly.
Also, as to why Clemens insisted McNamee be hired in the various cities he’s pitched – maybe it’s simply because he liked the way McNamee trained him. Why bother to hire someone new if you like what the current person is doing, AND you have enough “pull” to get that guy hired along with you. The guy knew Clemens’ routine; Clemens’ workout routine was of extreme importance to him. Why should he “train” someone else?
I’m not saying whether or not I think Clemens took steroids; I don’t know, and I’m on the record here as saying I hope not. But it seems to me that a lot of people are very quick to assign dubious purpose to actions that may not be dubious at all.
Well, I disagree with most of you. Although I am not sure I buy Clemens’ statements, the fact that B-12 shots were given to him by his trainer is quite common. When I went to lose weight I was given B-12 shots & even given kits with needles to inject daily myself. I was told that the Butt was the best place to do this even (daily) as it would not hurt or be irratated as easily.
Other options that are effective would be to add up to a pint of your own or someone elses blood before big games/events as it provides you with more energy and stamina.
Now that he atleast admitted in him taking shots in the rear. Its hard for me to believe that his best friend Petitte took p.e.d. when injured and he did the opposite. Give me a break!! The question to ask yourselves is would Petitte have taken them if he wasnt around Clemens?
Mel-I guess shouldnt go to subway this week for my turkey sandwich. Pizza it is.
“Isn’t that usually because they lack easy access to doctors or are trying to save money? Neither of those reasons applies to Clemens.”
No, not really. It’s more the doctors trying to have someone else do a relatively easy task, so they can focus on doing something BIGGER (stuff they can get paid more for. Sorry but we have big debts from medical school to pay.) Also, some people don’t like going to the doctor period (having to schedule an appointment, wait for a long time, etc.)
I guess you can say the Clemens could have hired what we call “Visiting Nurse” service to help him inject medications, but if he already had someone around competent doing it, it might be a matter of convinience. Even for patient that have these service, it’s only for a few sessions until they can train someone in the patient’s family. Continuing it for a long time is not cost effective.
I don’t know. It still sounds fishy but what I’m saying is that it’s not unusual. Of course, this all depends on whether all this B12 garbage is even indicated.
I can’t say you are wrong about Clemens wanting to save his butt, but….
Athletes have a need for quasi-medical attention all the time. (Frankly, I think Gene Monahan comes thisclose to practicing medicine without a license). It’s just not practical to ask an athlete like Clemens to see a doctor every time he needs something like a vitamin injection. If diabetics can inject themselves with prescription-only drugs like insulin, why is it so unreasonable to suggest that Rocket injected himself or had his trainer do it?
I believe that the team physician and/or orthopedist (or the doctors of the opposing team during road trips) are around the team virtually every single day, so I think it’s far more practical for him to be around a doctor that one might think.
As for when he isn’t with the team, I realize that doctors make a good living, but Clemens has made over $10 million a year for a long time. For a $100,000 or so retainer (not much money to Rog), most doctors would probably be ready, willing, and able to be at his disposal, especially when you consider the added cachet of hanging with a world class jock.
If McNamee had Monahan’s reputation and resume, using him to get pricked might be credible, but let’s be honest, Clemens has known full well that McNamee has been something of a rogue trainer, at best.
Look – people seem to have made up their minds on this one already. However, the “evidence” of guilt being tossed around in here is a complete joke. Doesnt make much sense to discuss why he might have had B-12 injections. I bet even if he did have ‘other’ injections, he also had the B-12 and Lidocaine. Who knows? I just know that nobody is presenting anything worthwhile to argue that he is guilty.
“That’s why I put quotation marks around “substitute†in the sentence †’substitute’ for [cortisone for] reduction of inflammation…†It’s NOT a substitute. It is implied by Roger Clemens that it was USED as a substitute which is obviously not either logical or medically appropriate.”
The indication for injecting cortisone in joints is if there is inflammation (tendinitis, bursitis etc.) causing PAIN. Cortisone reduces inflammation hence, less pain. Lidocaine is an anesthetic, hence if you inject it into a throbbing joint, you have LESS pain. While you have no antiinflammatory effect (hence no effect on lessening swelling), it serves the same purpose – being able to work through an injury.
whoa –
why would someone pay 100k for a doctor if they have someone who will do the same thing for no extra charge?
keep digging.
Doreen, to answer some of your questions:
Any honest MLB player would NOT want a team trainer injecting anything into their joints. That’s what Team Physicians, who are usually trained in orthopedic treatments and practices and surgical procedures, are for. One tiny little error, and you’re laid up for weeks while the pierced joint capsule heals…
Clemens was taking a huge risk if he allowed his trainer to inject stuff into his joints.
OTOH, Lidocaine injected into Clemens’ butt wouldn’t do anything except make his butt numb (for some subsequent humongous needle injection of B-12?)
Second, why go cheap and have a trainer do injections instead of a doctor, IF sometime down the line someone is asking these very questions, and there is some doubt cast on your legitimate claim to a place in the HOF?
If I were Clemens I’d do everything by the board, right out in plain sight of all the reporters, administered by the Team Physician (and even then some questions might be raised, as some of you have about the Schilling stapled-tendon treatment).
ESPECIALLY after the Tejada-Palmiero B-12 claims and counterclaims, and the Mark McGwire andro bottle; and subsequent denials or utter silence.
Don’t forget, too, that Clemens has completely flip-flopped on his trainer, supporting him and speaking up for him from 1998 to throughout 2006, and now has cast him adrift. Surely you don’t drop someone that close to you for that long unless he’s been stealing the family silver…
Noname –
what % of mlb players do you think had their own personal DOCTOR during that time?
according to you, its the logical thing to do. so surely almost all players who took supplements did so with a personal doctor, yes?
funny… i thought most players had trainers, not doctors. and many if not most players took supplements.
im not saying he’s innocent.. just that you are clueless.
Jane, you also said “The indication for injecting cortisone in joints is if there is inflammation (tendinitis, bursitis etc.) causing PAIN. Cortisone reduces inflammation hence, less pain.
Lidocaine is an anesthetic, hence if you inject it into a throbbing joint, you have LESS pain. While you have no antiinflammatory effect (hence no effect on lessening swelling), it serves the same purpose – being able to work through an injury.”
You were doing fine until you got to “it serves the same purpose”. For a MLB player, particularly a pitcher, that’s a dangerous and possibly career-threatening alternative to proper medical treatment.
Clemens would have to be a complete idiot to OK injecting Lidocaine to “work through an injury”. Now, if he’d had the Lidocaine injection to facilitate REST as the first part of “rest and rehab”, that’s a bit different.
I still hope the Rocket is telling the truth.
You guys can all say what you want to about him, but there is no evidence besides word-of-mouth. That ain’t enough to convict him in my eyes.
He’ll be in the HOF, just watch.
Noname – the only dangerous thing going on is your assumptions based on virtually no evidence other than a report of one sentence of an interview.
Boston Dave…
Actually, most MLB players SHOULD have their own personal physicians. You know, the same one they trust their family’s care to?
And specifically, they should be referred to an orthopedic specialist with training in Sports Medicine, who would then recommend a personal trainer with a licensed background in PT or some such related field.
Anything less than that, and you have the Gold’s Gym hangers-on latching onto your star, whatever your status as a MLB player is.
And that’s what we seem to have here. Clemens should have known better ‘way back in ‘98.
NoName – should and did are not the same thing. do you really think there were many players who had their own personal doctors? I don’t. So dont single out Clemens and don’t use it as evidence that Clemens is guilty.
Relax everybody. Clemens gave his statements today a good going over with his attorney before they got out of his mouth. If there were any obvious absurdities in the original draft, they were taken out before he spoke with Wallace. Roger was well prepared.
Thus, even though I’m not a trainer and I’m not a former MLB player, I have to assume Roger’s claims about getting shots of lidocaine and B12 are not going to sound like some fantasy to most baseball people. Whether or not they are a credible explanation as to his not taking PEDs is another matter for each of us to resolve for ourselves, as Pete Abe noted earlier.
People are going to believe what they want to believe, I guess. I see the Clemens’ admission of “legal” innoculations as being his desperate attempt to find permanent sanctuary from the PED accusations. And, obviously, I find his statement to be ludicrous.
But others think that it gives him legitimate “plausible deniability.” I think that view is absurd, but I didn’t agree with the jury after O.J.’s criminal trial, either.
I wonder what the “average fan” thinks? Yankee and Red Sox fans may be incapable of making an objective judgment. As I say, I think that it’s ridiculously obvious that he’s been using for years, necessitated by a mid-career decline that threatened his employment and his income. But many intelligent people don’t see it that way.
Of course, Carl Everett doesn’t believe that dinosaurs existed because he hasn’t seen any. So it depends on your standard of proof.
This link is from 60minutes.com. It’s not much to add, though.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/03/60minutes/main3671585.shtml#ccmm
(And not all baseball players are all that bright)
Noname –
I am just offering simple explanations which, as I said, were not stated for their veracity, but just a “for instance,” so to speak.
Not only that, I’m pretty sure most post- and pre-game treatments taken by players for any reason are out of plain sight, aren’t they?
Honestly, I’m glad I’m not on trial for anything with some of you on the jury!
jake – would you say the same thing about barry bonds?
Brian (Red Sox Fan):
Plausible deniability is what it is, my friend. It isn’t a clean answer to the charges. It’s just an answer that works. And my calling it plausible deniability was an observation on the whole circus that this report has become, just more fallout from your Red Sox director Mitchell failing to do a professional job, but being sure to give it to the Yankees pretty hard. But he had no conflcit of interest, right? You can come down from your high (hobby) horse now.
The circuitous entries on this blog are a lot like a dog trying to catch it’s tail.
The facts are:
1. It can not be proved one way or another.
2. A lot of MLB players, who shall never be named, i.e. Ortiz, likely took PED’s.therefore it is wrong to single out individual players. The whole, entire, era is suspect. Trying to parse it down to named players is very shoddy reactionary behaviour.
Get over it
If Clemens was injected with was B12 and Lidocaine as he claims and not PEDs why didn’t he admit it 2 weeks ago?
whoa –
why would someone pay 100k for a doctor if they have someone who will do the same thing for no extra charge?
keep digging.
Do you have any idea how little 100k is to someone who may be worth close to $100 million? Guess not.
The answer is easy: HIS FREAKIN’ HEALTH!!!!!!!!
keep doing whatever you’re doing, it’s fun.
Well, if none of you like Roger’s explanation for why he got numbing shots and vitamin shots in the butt, you might like what some wag over at the Astros’ fanblog said about Roger’s use of Lidocaine:
“Maybe he had some bad hemorrhoid issues. Like George Brett that one time.”
Murphydog ….. I know what plausible deniability is, and I know how, and why, it is used. Attacking me doesn’t make Clemens’ denial any more plausible, any more than Clemens’ attacking McNamee will ultimately legitmatize his denials.
If anything, it appears as though McNamee has found a lawyer who will work on a contingency basis if the targeted respondent has deep pockets And that would be Clemens. So much for Clemens’ typical bully tactics.
I often read this blog and have come to respect many of your opinions. Don’t waste your time castigating others on Clemens’ behalf. He’s not worth it.
The bottom line remains the same. The Mitchell Report was ill prepared and full of holes. The spineless Commissioner continues to deftly hide in crevices without comment hoping and praying that the entire issue can drag its feet until the end of 2009 when his term expires.
“But others think that it gives him legitimate “plausible deniability.†I think that view is absurd.”
brian(red sox fan)-
the problem you have with this is you can’t stand clemens. that’s obvious to see. because of your dislike you are going by feelings that you just know to be true. a judge would laugh at your reasoning in court. none of your feelings, even if they are right, would carry any weight in court.
i don’t see anything presented so far in the mitchell report against clemens that will carry any weight in a court of law. your hatred of clemens or anyone else’s dislike of clemens isn’t evidence against him. it just doesn’t matter.
we get it that you don’t like clemens. we get it that you are hoping he’s guilty. do you have any logical arguments that would stand up in a court of law? i haven’t heard one yet.
Getting Santana does two things:
1. Gives the Yankees a better chance to win a W.S. this season.
3. Gives the Yankees a better chance to win a W.S. many years from now.
The guy is 29 years of age… its not like he’s 45. He’s also left handed. Hughes COULD be great but Santana IS great at the moment. We’d still have Kennedy and Joba plus Horne and White waiting in the minor leagues…
Actually, there is now a way to reach a conclusion—at least a preliminary conclusion. Lidocaine is a prescription drug. Let’s see the prescription and/or the doctor! If Clemens can produce contemporaneous evidence that a doctor prescribed lidocaine, Clemens looks a lot better. In the absence of corroboration however…
Randy 1 ….. You’re right. I can’t stand Clemens, the same way most men can’t stand their ex-wives. But those men do have a viable perspective, and a good reason for their views.
In Clemens’ case, I saw him pitch as a rookie and develop into a dominating ace. I also saw him have trouble in big games, always losing to Oakland’s Dave Stewart. I saw him pitch as a rangy 24 year old, ultimately signing a lucrative four year contract. During that contract his “legendary” workout regimen produced a portly blob who gained 40 pounds of donut fat. I saw his physique improve in his final (contract) year, as well as his performance.
As he entered free agency (buoyed by his improved physique and better stats), he said he loved his family and really wanted to play in Texas. So he took the most money and went to …... Toronto!
I saw his physique continue to alter, resembling Mike Ditka in his prime (with a face that mirrored Jason Giambi’s …. no more chiseled features). I saw his career miraculously reverse, including a sudden ability to pitch well in the post-season.
I was originally irritated at Clemens because he tanked his four year contract in Boston, and I thought he had simply started to work out more and better in order to get a better contract elsewhere (after stealing the red sox’ money). I became mad at my own naivete when the PED rumors started. “How could I be so DUMB????,’ I thought.
So, to steal a movie title (and line), Clemens is just a “One-Eyed Jack” in your town, and we here in Boston have seen the other side of him. Don’t tell a former spouse that their ex has “plausible deniability” re: the character of the ex. We’ve seen the other side.
Methinks if Roger had done what you suggest but did it in Boston and to Boston’s advantage, you wouldn’t be quite so vitriolic.
Didn’t Clemens just say last week that “I did not provide Brian McNamee with any drugs to inject into my body.”
Now all of a sudden, whoops, I forgot in my scripted youtube video, he injected lidocaine and B12 into me.
Something fishy here…
Doreen …. You may be right; I don’t know the limits of my hypocricy. I AM pretty sure that I’m less hypocritical than “The Rocket.”
But I DO know that if I was Clemens, I’d pull a Mark McGwire and slink out of sight. This guy McNamee is no saint, but he is spot on. And his contingency lawyer sees some VERY deep pockets. Clemens had best hope that CBS’ editing of his remarks re: McNamee obfuscate Clemens’ attack on McNamee.
Roger has a history of double-talk. Remember the Piazza debacles. While his teammates might love him for sticking up for them , I doubt he will win in the court of public opinion. Writers are already comparing him to McGwire, Bonds and Palmiero, all 3 who will not get into heaven, I mean the Hall of Fame, which is Roger’s ultimate goal in this fiasco, not to mention the money he will lose.
Rob …. That’s my recollection of Clemens’ original denial …. “nothin’, no way, nohow!!!”
“Oops …. other than the B12, that is.”
Methinks Roger is getting in over his head…with the report “leaking” today and reactions to it negative, don’t be surprised if it is pulled at the last minute as well as his press conference on Monday.
” During that contract his “legendary†workout regimen produced a portly blob who gained 40 pounds of donut fat.”
brian(red sox fan)-
i think i’ve got it figured out. you can’t stand fat people. especially ones that leave the red sox and get cy youngs elsewhere.
but don’t you feel better that you got it all out.
Just hope he doesn’t start wagging his finger a la Palmiero.
As a Yankee fan , I hate to say it but I agree with Brian(red sox fan). He seems more objective than the average Yankee fan who might jump on Roger’s bandwagon. Roger is really a Red Sock more than he ever was a Yankee. He was another mercenary passing through for the riches of Yankeeland, for god’s sake. How many retirement parties did we Yankee fans have to throw him? I waved goodbye, (did not get my standing O or cheers) at the 03 WS in Fla, but he kept coming back for more money probably with the help of steroids. Say goodbye Roger, to the Hall of Fame as well.
In his video before Christmas, Clemens says “I did not provide Brian MacNamee any drugs to inject into my body. Brian MacNamee did not inject steroids or HGH into my body…”
So these new statements are problematic… He is going to have to say he misspoke (when he said “drugs” he meant “steroids or HGH”) or that he was threading the needle somehow (He didn’t provide the drugs, Brian did)...
Unless Clemens said McNamee never injected him with anything, he hasn’t mispoken yet.
The more he talks, the more he is likely to though.
As for pulling the interview, too late. Once he signed the release for the interview and it was taped, the footage belongs to 60 Minutes and he has no control over what they do with it.
Brian
I’ve never been a big Clemens fan and I can hear the dislike in your posts but you are partaking in a little revisionist history to make your point.
Clemens was openly negotiating with teams not located in Texas when he filed for free agency. The Yankees were one of the teams he turned down to go to Toronto. Boston could have gotten involved in signing him in free agency but chose not to because Dan Duquette didn’t want to write a check as big as others did for a player “in the twilight of his career”.
The majority of the years that Clemens was a member of the Sox, he didn’t steal his money. The Sox even picked up the option on the last year of his contract rather than buying him out so they must have thought he was worth the cash.
Butt?
Lidocaine?
Injections?
Man, why couldn’t we be talkin’ ‘bout Pavano?
Pat …. I’m sure that Clemens was openly negotiating with other teams during his original free agency, but he also made a big deal over his love of Texas and his family. He implied that money was secondary in his job search.
And then he took the most money …. to go to Toronto (not exactly a Texas border statE).
And he was a joke during his last four year Boston contract. He absolutely stole his money during that period. It’s not just that he didn’t produce …. it’s that he didn’t produce BECAUSE his conditioning was non-existent. He got big, guaranteed money, and totally lost his edge and focus.
That’s wht it’s hysterically funny to hear the revisionist history about Clemens’ “legendary” work habits. Clemens didn’t start working until he started juicing.
Again, we here in Boston SAW him. We have seen the “transformation.” There is no revisionist history. This guy is a fraud, and he’s using the gullibility of well-meaning people to enhance his story.
When more facts come out, people will turn on him, and turn hard. Around the nation, I think it has already started (this B12 excuse is killing him).
“This guy is a fraud,”-
ok brian, that’s it . you’re calling roger clemens a fraud? have you ever had your skinny ass on a professional baseball field? have you ever been in a locker room? have you ever gotten into a professional game you didn’t have to pay your way into?
do you know anything about professional baseball besides what you read?
so as far as baseball goes, who’s the fraud, you or roger clemens?
roger clemens is the real thing.
you’re a fan.
you are crossing into that disrespectful territory you used to breach when you used to go off on arod. if you want respect on this site, show some yourself.
you will never know what clemens knows about pitching.
not many on the planet ever will. any mistakes he’s made, if he’s made them, isn’t going to change that fact.
If he was stealing his money, why would Sox management pick up the option on his final year rather than just let him go? They must have thought they were getting their moneys worth even if you don’t.
And one last thing, Pat, speaking of “partaking in a little revisionist history to make your point.”
I thought EVERYONE knew by now that Dan Duquette never did say ”...a player ‘in the twilight of his career’. Rather, the entire, correct quote is “”The Red Sox and our fans were fortunate to see Roger Clemens play in his prime and we had hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career,” (see http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/wiki/index.php?title=Twilight_of_his_career if you still doubt me)
And like that article says, Clemens got an offer better than any others ever offered by the Red Sox organization to him (he’d previously been the highest-paid Red Sox) or anyone else. It may or may not have been better than the Yankee offer, but it wasn’t as much as the Blue Jay one. Ergo, go for the money, Roger.
Randy 1 …. a fraud is someone who presents themself as something other than what they are. One needn’t have been a professional baseball player (I have not) to identify one. I firmly believe that Clemens qualifies.
I have no argument with you, or malice towards you. I haven’t been a member of a pro sports locker room, but I have spent two years in USMC barracks. Maybe that gives me some insight into an all-boys group dynamic.
I have played HS sports, organized softball (slow and fast pitch), been on the Camp Lejeune Golf Team …. I have some feel for what it takes to succeed (and fail, unfortunately) at sports endeavors.
I DO have a feel for sports. I SAW Clemens’ stuff deteriorate in Boston. I don’t need a radar gun to identify what pitch has been thrown. I may be just a fan, but I’d like to think that I’m a knowledgeable one. Feel free to disagree with my opinions, but don’t disagree wuth them because of a preconceived notion that I’m not sufficiently credentialed to have one.
you can say that you don’t believe clemens. you can say you don’t like him. but you can’t say he’s a fraud as a baseball player. how would you like it if someone who has never been a marine said you were a fraud as a marine because they simply didn’t like you? and oh,by the way, they had never been a marine.
you have every right to say you think clemens used peds, but i don’t think you have a right to call him a fraud as a baseball player.
if i were teaching someone young the mechanics of pitching, i’d teach them clemens’ mechanics. as far as pitchers go, clemens is as good as it gets.
because you have done all the things in your life , you should, despite having an intense dislike for clemens, at least have a respect for his skill and commitment as a baseball player.
that’s all that i’m saying.
“oh goodness, gracious”
Noname
I don’t doubt you, I know the quote. I don’t see it as a compliment. Sounds like something that would be said about a player you thought was in decline or at a retirement dinner.
roger, what have you done? wondering what the purpose of Mitchell report was? To nail the Rocket or clean up baseball?
Randy 1 ….. fair enough; but, obviously, my respect for Clemens’ accomplishments is tempered by the fact that, like Bonds, it is very hard to quantify the impact of PEDs. Clemens was a marvelous talent. But much of the adulation accorded him is based on his longevity; and his longevity is based on …...... ?
It really is too bad. Clemens (and PEDs) has become like politics and religion …. discuss them at your own peril.
I’m almost ready for another go-around of the Santana Sweepstakes (e.g. How DARE you say that Hughes is a better prospect than Ellsbury?? etc. etc.)
“It really is too bad. Clemens (and PEDs) has become like politics and religion …. discuss them at your own peril.”
brian(red sox fan)-
precisely why i believe the mitchell report was mistake. baseball should just move forward with independent testing in place.
pat said, “I don’t doubt you, I know the quote. I don’t see it as a compliment. Sounds like something that would be said about a player you thought was in decline or at a retirement dinner.”
It was said AFTER Clemens signed with the Blue Jays, so, yeah, I’m sure they were as kind words as Duquette could come up with after Clemens
went out the door waving his Canadian dollars in Duquette’s face after swearing that he would either pitch for the Red Sox or Houston. You could say Clemens retired himself from being a Red Sox.
It was Clemens himself who misquoted Duquette’s original statement in the months following, including ST with the Jays. And that’s what’s been printed ever after…as if everyone thought Clemens always was Boy-Scout truthful.
I’ve counted 9 major lies that Clemens has told between 1986 regarding episodes in both his career and personal life, not including this current business; and until now, HIS word has been taken as gospel.
I’ll bet the sportswriting world now will re-examine Clemens’ claims about “the blister”, “the umpire threat”, “the arrest at Bayou Mama’s”, etc., etc.
Wow, I would really love to have some of the folks here on a jury – a little conjecture, a wink here and nod there – easily convinced of what they want to be true. Facts optional.
Brian (Red Sox Fan)
Do you see the same “transformation” of David Ortiz from released loser to MVP candidate? Just curious if that raises your eyebrows any?
It doesn’t raise mine. David Arias Ortiz was seen by the Twins as a spray hitter, not so much a power hitter, to take advantage of the Metrodome turf. That wasn’t his forte, so he became a “loser”. The Red Sox asked him to do just what comes naturally (emphasis on NATURALLY), and he blossomed.
Heck, his power career will probably last about as long as Cecil Fielder’s, or Mo Vaughn’s, or George Bell’s, or Bo Jackson’s, or anyone else you can care to name that’s built like a brick …house.
Why don’t you just revel in the fact that ARod is a Yankee, and stop all this Ortiz hate?
ellen said, “Wow, I would really love to have some of the folks here on a jury – a little conjecture, a wink here and nod there – easily convinced of what they want to be true. Facts optional,” after I wrote, “I’ll bet the sportswriting world now will re-examine Clemens’ claims about ‘the blister’, ‘the umpire threat’, ‘the arrest at Bayou Mama’s’”
As a matter of fact, if any of the guys who post in SportsJournalists.com ’s “Sports and News” section ( http://www.sportsjournalists.com/forum/index.php/topic,51252.0.html ) have a HOF vote in 5 years, I don’t see much chance for Roger getting in there…
Steve …. I’m a little late on this one, but I have my doubts about Ortiz as well.
So now this is the Brian (Red Sox Fan)site?
Clemens was a HoF pitcher, whether he juiced or not.
The whole era is suspect, including many Red Sox players (Ortiz whose performance and shape has changed since he signed.
So what we really have here is a personal Brian agenda.
the objective view is that the entirety of MLB is under a cloud for the steroid period. that is how it will be remembered, not just named players from the Mitchell report.
vrsce …. Clemens is in the news, and has been with both the Sox and Yanks. I don’t think that I’m driving this agenda (check the initial blog post by Pete).
Stop being so parochial. It’s not as though I’m attempting to debate the stature of Ted williams and Carl Yastrzemski.
Happy New Year!
So, now we find out that Roger Clemens for all his ‘workouts’ is just another cheating, lying professional athlete. Where will it all end?
I am a long-time Yankee fan, but I respect the viewpoint of Brian (Red Socks fan) and thank him for his contribution. I think the future looks dark for Clemens.