Hall of Fame announcement today
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- January
- 8
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Based on the exit polls, today should be a happy day for Goose Gossage. The results of the BBWAA Hall of Fame voting will be revealed at 2 p.m.
The Hall of Fame and BBWAA sites will have the scoop.
Jim Rice, Jack Morris, Bert Blyleven and Tim Raines were the other leading candidates. You need 75 percent of the vote to get in. Given the tenor of the times, much will be made over how votes Mark McGwire receives. He had 128 last year, 23.5 percent.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Gossage and Rice for 2008
prediction or knowledge?
Go Go Goose!
Just Say No to Mark McGwire, since he didn’t just say no.
(to steroids or to congress)
It will be nice to see Goose in the Hall of Fame, but I believe that Andre Dawson deserves more credit for having such a fine career. Maybe in due time.
And you know the first question they will ask Goose:
“Do you think Roger Clemens used steroids?”
Baseball America’s Projected 2011 lineup Yankees : Catcher- Austine Romine. 1st Base- Jesus Montero. 2nd Base- Robinson Cano. 3rd Base- Alex Rodriguez. SS- Derek Jeter. LF- Brett Gardner. CF- Austin Jackson. RF Jose Tabata. DH- Bobby Abreu. Rotation Starters 1. Joba Chamberlain 2. Phil Hughes 3. Chien-Ming Wang 4. Ian Kennedy 5. Alan Horne. Closer- Mark Melancon. Enjoy.
Melky Cabrera not on. Shelley Duncan not on. What do they project will happen with these guys. Traded? Backups? What?
i noticed yesterday that that projected line-up is under the assumption that no trades or free agent aquisitions will take place between now and 2011. they more or less took their propect rankings and filled in the holes of whose contracts will expire in the coming years. kind of lazy. and i guess they think abreu will impress enough to keep around (i hope so)
just a side note – the new poll on the side about Clemens is kinda interesting – originally it was like 72 percent that said he used steroids, now it’s 414-381 saying he did with 327 “not-sures” say what you want about him, but he’s obviously getting some support
count me as one whose opinion changed from “he’s guilty” to “i’m not sure”…
was “i’m not sure” an option on the first poll? i don’t remember…
will someone please tell bobby abreu that not only is the outfield wall not electrified but its actually padded and wont kill him if he comes in contact with it. he treats it like its the 3rd rail!
I miss bernie – i guess that’s why he’s moving to DH in 2011 according to baseball america
i just want to point out how the BBWAA website looks like a child created it
the BBWAA site is the ugliest site ever ever seen
I found the nod to Abreu in ‘11 odd in that he’s not bound by contract past ‘08. Maybe Alex has an “Abreu Clause”.
I miss bernie, I soooo agree with you. Someone should also inform him that he can in fact get his uniform dirty, and that diving catches are possible.
Count me in the “not sure” category now. I moved from the “he did PEDs” camp with the new developments.
I am also of the belief that none of the guys up for HOF should be in but given Sutter is in I have to agree that Goose should have been in first so he has to get in. The others were not dominant enough during their day to make me believe they deserve it. I have a high bar and there are many already in that I vehemently disagree with.
I think we have cheapened entry to the hall and it should be called the “Hall of Very Good”
Finally! The Goose is Loose!
With regard to McGwire the St Louis Post Dispatch did a poll of at least one writer in each city who has a Hall of Fame Vote and they are predicting he will come away with only 18 per centof the vote this year which is a very large drop off from last year if it turns out to be correct. I think that his stock can only go down with everything that has come out this past year
Diving catches are fun to watch, but I suspect that they’re over-rated. If an outfielder is positioned well, there shouldn’t be the need for too many diving catches.
BTW, if Roger’s ultimate goal, here, is less about the lawsuit, and more about swinging public opinion in his favor, I recommend as follows.
Want to win the public, Rocket? In an exercise of noble gallantry and saint-like magnanimity–
1) Call and/or go see McNamee’s son. (Assuring in advance of course his father isn’t there.)
2) Announce to public that because McNamee himself is broke, and you don’t want to see his son suffer for his father’s lies, you, the Rocket, plan to pay for Brian Jr.’s medical care and to spend whatever it takes to ensure he receives the best and most advanced treatment.
I wonder if he would do it. That Baseball Prospectus article Pete linked to yesterday portrays Clemens as pathologically frugal.
It just might however mitigate whatever bad publicity Rocket has received for playing the tape yesterday and quiet the complaints that he exploited McNamee’s distress over his kid’s health in doing so.
Any thoughts? Roger does seem to have a flair for the dramatic or at least the histrionic. That Yankee Stadium appearance of his May smacked of the cowboy riding in on the white horse.
Pete? You know the boy.
i miss bernie
I agree that abreau is a lousy outfielder. I think he costs us at least 5 games a year. I hope we are smart enough to let one of the kids take over after this year.
I should add, though, regarding Abreu — the communication between him and his centerfielder (specifically Melky) needs to be better.
I have nothing against Goose, but I can’t say that I feel he deserves the HOF. Seems some years the standards go down.
I think its hard to evaluate who gets into the hall. Morris was a great pitcher. He had 3 20 win seasons including one that happened near the end of his career. He was very consistant. Between 1979 – 1988 he won an average of 17 games per season. The lowest win total he had in that time was 14 games. He also, for the most part, kept his ERA in the mid 3 range in that time. But when you look at his career over all he may not deserve hall of fame status. He’s one of those on the cusp guys like Mattingly. However, his nasty attitude towards the media in his time is probably what’s going to keep him out of the hall.
Has there ever been a year where no one was elected into the Hall of Fame?
I don’t know about that Baseball America projection. I don’t know where Jeter would go, but I’m not comfortable with him at SS in 2011 (when he would turn 37 that summer).
If you go to baseball-reference.com, compare Morris to Mussina.
You might be surprised at who has the better career numbers.
Agree Mike S. I can’t see Jeter being SS after this season, let alone 2011.
Yes, Doreen. It has happened, and more than once.
Doreen, you’re right that position means a lot in the outfield, however I’ve seen Abreu watch balls drop in front or around him that he could have reached had he stretched out. Apparently, it was too much to ask for.
I’ll say this for him. He’s a good batter with a great eye, has decent speed, and a cannon for an arm. That being said, I would prefer another outfielder.
Don’t forget that a lot of guys have been dumped in right for a reason- so their lack of defense will have the least impact.
Doreen,
I think there was a year in the 70’s when no one was elected. The BBWA and HOF election is very peculiar. Some guys use it as a way to pay back personal slights. It is said there was one guy (Jack somebody) on the veterans comittee who for some reason disliked Rizzzuto and was responsible for keeping him out for 20 or so years.
And how about the guy last year who didn’t even put Cal Ripken on his ballot because, well, because he wasn’t sure if he wanted to vote for anyone who has played during the entire steroid era. What a bufoon!
“I agree that abreau is a lousy outfielder. I think he costs us at least 5 games a year.”
5 wins per year?
can you back this up? because that would make him one of the worst outfielders in the history of baseball.
of course that’s not true.
Abreu is about average, maybe a little below.
he certainly costs the Yankees fewer games per year on defense than Jeter does.
In a nutshell, today will be a great day for Goose and Obama, and a bad day for McGwire and Hillary.
Hey saucy,
Hope our NFL picks are better than yesterdays college pick.
I should of known the big 10 is over rated. I can always go to “i picked them to win at the start of the season”.
I wonder if Girardi will have Abreu practice just slamming into walls in spring training? To overcome your fears you have to face them. Someone needs to tell him that hes not playing in wrigley Field. The walls are padded here.
We had a brief discussion yesterday about Jeter. Most see him making a position change but everyone has him going to different positions. I for one think after 09 he should go play first. Others have him in Centerfrield(more chance of injury) or thirdbase and Arod moving to first. The problem is will the Yankees ask him to move(i doubt they would)or will he just volunteer to change.
Has anyone ever asked Abreu about the wall issues? I’m interested to know what his response would be.
i disagree with the big 10 being overrated, ohio state just finds a way to choke it seems. at least it wasn’t as much of a disaster as last year.
also, i think their seasons usually end a few weeks sooner than the SEC. ohio’s last game was almost 2 months ago…
I think Jeter would ask for a change is HE realizes he is costing the team by staying there. I don’t think Girardi would hesitate to move any player though.
Didn’t one of the guys who voted no on Cal “justify” his vote something along the lines of… “Because no one before ever got 100% of the vote, no one from now on should get 100% of the vote either, so I’ll vote no, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER I THINK HE’S HALL-WORTHY OR NOT”
Jeez that BBWA web site is pitiful. Have these guys not class or taste?
Saucy,
Illinois got worked as well. As far as time off, it is getting rediculous of how long they have to wait to play again. I remember when it was New Years Day.
Speaking of waiting, thy super bowl this year is 2 weeks after the Championship games. Why cant they go back to the week after. This 2 week wait,IMO just kills the hype and excitment rather than feed it.
Mike S -
You were being kind. It’s happened many times (no one elected to the HOF). The last time it happened was fairly recent, 1996, with ‘71 being the next most recent year for that to happen. In addition, in 1940, 1941, 1943, 1944, 1957, 1959, 1961 and 1963 the BBWAA did not hold elections at all. Does anyone know why? I can guess the 1940’s years had to do with WWII, but the ’50s and ’60s times?
It also looks to me that a lot of the voting seems to be based on who else is eligible that year – so a comparison between players, rather than simply on the quality of a player individually. Players who missed election one year could get in in what I guess they call a “weak” lineup of eligible players.
I was shocked, and I guess I should have known this, that Yogi did not go in on his first try.
Roger Clemens can’t cover McNamee’s kids medical bills.
If he does that now, the national media would be all over him for trying to influence McNamee into changing his testimony against him.
It really doesn’t look too good to cover the medical bills of someone’s family member you are suing. Especially, when that someone offered sworn testimony against you.
Covering the kids medical bills would be a disasterous decision by Clemens.
’50’s and ’60’s was due to the rampant use of drugs by the writers. [/jk]
so the big 10 are 1-2 against sec in bowl games this year. only 3 bowl games involving the 2 conferences this year.
i’m pretty sure last year there were more sec/big 10 matchups and more ended in favor of big 10. (i remember getting into some online arguments with an alabama fan)
SJ44, was McNamee’s discussions with Mitchell sworn statements? I have not seen anything that leads me to believe that. The only thing ever said was that he was reminded that if he lied the Feds were going to jump all over him.
SJ44,
Good to see you back. On the topic of Jeter, when and what position do you think he will end up at?
On the HOF Website, there is a sidebar that shows players who will be eligible in the coming years. Mike Hampton is listed for 2011 – I thought he was still playing, so to speak; and for 2012, Bernie Williams, who I thought had not retired
.
Doreen: According to Wikipedia (so, grain of salt as always
), in 1939 they decided to hold elections every 3 years instead of annually, hence no elections for 1940, 1941, 1943, and 1944
No mention of the association changing their mind after the 1945 election
For the 50’s and 60’s….will Google help? Only one way to find out…
saucy,
I was just talking about this year. I used to follow Penn State(PATERNO NEEDS TO RETIRE ALREADY) and i know that Michigan,Wisconsin,Penn State and Ohio State can compete against the SEC. It was an off year for them. I look for Michigan to comeback strong next year.
The conference thats climbing fast is the PAC 10.
Doreen,
Joe DiMaggio didn’t get in on the first try either.
By the way,if USC would have gotten a chance at the championship game they would have probably won it. Playoff system needed. The best eight tournament. With all the off time in December, why not make more money out of it?
One hour ’til Goose get in!
i kind of young to remember Rice, and since i’ve seen it debated a lot lately on whether he deserves to be in the HOF, i asked my father his opinion.
He said if Rice gets in, that Roger Maris should be in as well. His arguement was that certain milestone statistics have been used over the years (career hits, HRs…) and that if a man can hold such a record as Maris did for as long as he did, it should probably fall under one of those milestones as well. He had 2 MVP seasons and helped St Louis win a world series after leaving New York. My father thinks if Maris was more of a media guy, that he’d be in. His arguement against Rice was that he was a product of Fenway.
Should have been Rice and Gossage last year so it should be Rice and Gossage this year.
I believe there’s an aspect to being a hall of famer that cannot be quantified, that is cannot be based purely on stats. Jim Rice is an example of that.
I find it hilarious that people want to put Raines in before a guy like Rice. I like Raines a lot, but this is not the hall of very good.
I am in love with Jennifer Nicole lee, Lohud Mom. Just wanted to say that.
Irabu’s Son –
Not even the second try!!!!
1n 1954 he got beat out by a guy named Rabbit Maranville who had failed in his previous 13 years to be elected. His claim to fame was that he played 23 seasons, more than any other player until Pete Rose. Life time BA .258. WHAT?????
Raines was a better player than Rice was. At least according to the numbers.
I’m curious though, do you also think that Bernie Williams should be a HOF? I don’t, but the difference between the two of them is so slight that if you vote for one you should vote for the other.
Jim Rice
Games 2089
AB’s 8225
Runs 1249
Hits 2452
HR 373
RBI 1451
BA .298
OBP .352
OPS+ 128
Bernie Williams
Games 2076
AB 7869
Runs 1366
Hits 2336
HR 287
RBI 1257
BA .297
OBP .381
OPS+ 125
Every witness who spoke to Mitchell was sworn in, including McNamee.
Hard to say where Jeter eventually ends up. For years, I thought it would be CF. However, with the emergence of Cabrera and Austin Jackson, unless both are dealt, I don’t think CF is in Jeter’s future.
He may just go from SS to DH. I don’t really see him as a first baseman.
FYI Pettite has NOT confirmed he will appear next week at the Congressional hearing.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/.....id=3186496
Cy Young didn’t get in his first try, but 5 great players got in that year, including Babe Ruth and Walter Johnson. Young made it in on his second try, but with just a bit over 76% of the vote. And yet the pitching award is named for him. Go figure. I guess you had to be there to appreciate the politics and culture of the times.
GRRRRRRRR — Right now, it does not appear that McNamee testified under oath (I bring up this point frequently when people claim otherwise) — but he may have.
Even if his statements were not under oath, he may be subject to charges other than perjury if he purposefully misled prosecutors and investigators… and they can always go after him for whatever they thought he did when they first brought him: dealing drugs, etc.
Did Dixville Notch or Hart’s Location vote for Gossage?
SJ44 -
How “bad” (I hate to use that word, but can’t think of another) does Jeter have to be at SS for the Yankees to stop playing him there? He is still the most popular member of the Yankees (ARod’s talent & contract notwithstanding), and I think it’s going to be a very difficult situation to deal with down the road unless Derek is the one who broaches the subject of a position change.
Chuck I understand that the Feds were there for the statements that McNamee made and was told that he was likely to be prosecuted if he lied. Making a statement under oath though opens up a lot of additional charges.
Doreen,
In fairness, Rabbit’s was known for his power bat which produced 28 home runs over the course of his 23 year career.
GRRRRR and Mitchell witnesses WERE NOT UNDER OATH! From page 145 of the report:
“Since this was not a judicial proceeding,
none of the persons who provided information testified
under oath.”
[I don't know how to create those funny little quote boxes]
Lost some words in my first sentence — should have read:
GRRRRR and SJ44 — Mitchell witnesses WERE NOT UNDER OATH! From page 145 of the report:
Doreen, I think it will get obvious when Jeter needs to move. DH? I don’t know. I just don’t see him playing that role.
so no comments on my last post (re: my dad’s opinion)? my company paid me a few bucks to type that out.
Chuck, I guess with all the reading I did on the Mitchell report I forgot it was in the actual report. Thanks!
Of course with the silly blockquote stuff, it would help if I put the end blockquote at the right spot.
Fair point, SJ44.
However if it’s negotiated by McNamee’s and Roger’s lawyers, it might forestall both the appearance of witness tampering and/or bribery in addition to whatever adverse legal implications it raise that I initially overlooked.
I suspect McNamee is impervious to Clemens’ influence anyway. McNamee can’t contradict himself now. If he recants, he convicts himself for perjury under the Federal proffer he signed.
The reason I proposed it is because McNamee sounds such a pathetic figure in that phone call that his kid’s plight earns him enough sympathy to dilute the outrage his lies otherwise would provoke.
It makes you feel bad for the guy, even if he’s lying– nay, especially if he’s lying to appease some overzealous US attorney in order to stay out of jail to protect his son.
saucy – I tend to agree with your Dad’s assessment. I think sometimes these players get a reputation over what their true accomplishments are. That is how I think of Rice.
I think the HOF is somewhat subjective as well. Fortunately there is a veteran committee that can correct some of the slights of years earlier, but even then it is based on opinion and not strickly by milestones.
WHo the heck is “Jennifer Nicole Lee”?
“I find it hilarious that people want to put Raines in before a guy like Rice. I like Raines a lot, but this is not the hall of very good.”
and i find it hilarious that you think Rice is better than Raines.
ok, now where do we go?
GRRRRRRR,
I would have agreed with you regarding Jeter as a DH. He’s not enough of a power threat generally, DH are more power hitters. BUT, I just finished reading up on Paul Molitor who finished out his career as a DH. He didn’t hit for much power was good for average and doubles. Jeter could do that. And if they get a 1B with power, they could afford a doubles-hitting .300-plus DH.
The BBWAA looks like someone picked up “HTML for Dummies” and had about 20 minutes to put something together. Comical, but I’m sure it will be fixed.
Also, while we could argue about how long Jeter will stay at SS, I find it interesting to look at the offseason interviews. Many of the interviews with the “young guys” (Joba, Hughes, Kennedy) comment on the upcoming season. They have full confidence in their team. However, they all say, not in so many words, that they have confidence in the team behind Arod, Posada, and Mo. Although I realize much of this came recently after all 3 were locked in for the 2008 season, not one of the players mentioned Jeter (their captain) as someone they could rally behind.
The Veterans’ Committee can correct oversights of people left out, but nothing can be done about the Rabbit Maranvilles of the world about whom it can be argued that they should not have gotten in.
Kill-Schill(ing),
She’s the woman in the Lohud moms ads that pop up in the right hand corner.
Pauly O -
I think you’re reading too much into Jeter not being mentioned. I think the comments were specifically with regard to the fact that those 3 could have been lost from the team, and the relief they felt that they were re-signed. Jeter was a given.
Kill-Schill(ing), I don’t think he faces perjury charges as it was not sworn testimony, even the likelihood of them prosecuting him now would be fairly slim. It would bring out things that Mitchell and his buddies might not want to be public knowledge.
“How “bad†(I hate to use that word, but can’t think of another) does Jeter have to be at SS for the Yankees to stop playing him there?”
i think the answer is: if he doesn’t bounce back from last year.
he was already “bad” enough in 2007 to warrant a position change, but i am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he had some nagging injuries that were limiting his movement.
but if he has a 2008 equal to 2007, he has to move.
“I believe there’s an aspect to being a hall of famer that cannot be quantified, that is cannot be based purely on stats. Jim Rice is an example of that.”
in other words, i am right because i say so and no “facts” can prove me wrong.
i will give you this, it’s an airtight argument.
GRRRRRRRRR:
“SJ44, was McNamee’s discussions with Mitchell sworn statements? I have not seen anything that leads me to believe that. The only thing ever said was that he was reminded that if he lied the Feds were going to jump all over him.”
This is nuanced. Based on my experience, McNamee would have had to commit himself to a written or recorded version of the events surrounding Clemens (and Pettitte) so that there was a physical record of what he was providing in exchange for his “get out of jail free card.” I would expect that such a record was made in the form of a sworn-to written statement by McNamee, or a Q and A under oath taken in stenographic shorthand, on audio or video, before McNamee spoke with Mitchell. (You do these things with cooperating witnesses to “lock in” their story and commit them to a version of the facts under oath. Thus if the cooperator testifies at trial differently from his prior statement, he is toast).
The alternative is for the Feds to have several conversations with McNamee first and once they were satisfied that he was consistently repeating the same story, then let him talk with Mitchell without giving a prior statement. The problem is, how could the Feds be sure McNamee would tell the same story to Mitchell that he had told them if they didn’t commit McNamee to writing (or transcript) first?
Suppose McNamee says something different when he speaks to to Mitchell than he said to the Feds when they were making his deal. The Feds say: “Hey Brian, you’re lying.” McNamee says “I never told you anything different.” How do you solve that problem? The Agents could refer to their notes but the best solution is to have McNamee’s own sworn-to prior statement handy.
Thus, despite the fact that McNamee’s actual conversations with Mitchell were not under oath, Federal Agents were likely present when McNamee spoke with Mitchell to be sure he stuck to his prior story. I’m also sure that from time to time McNamee was reminded that if he told a story to Mitchell that was different from his prior statement that he would face a charge of lying to Federal Agents (based on his original statement), or making a false sworn statement or obstructing a Federal investigation.
hmmm – while I agree with that, I don’t think it will happen all that easily.
I could see Jeter playing first or left field. I don’t see Jeter wanting to sit so much of the game, which is why I don’t see him as DH. I don’t think the power hitter there is critical if you have other power hitters on the team.
I think Derek will hold onto the SS spot as long as possible. At the point when it’s ‘obvious’ for him to relocate, it will simply be a matter of what openings are out there.
If the yanks get Teix or similar next year at first, Jeter would probably move into the Flex SS/DH role. I think they will rotate him out slowly, playing him like they did a hobbled Damon in 07.
“He may just go from SS to DH. I don’t really see him as a first baseman.”
the only problem with that is that jeter is such a pain in the butt for everyone when he’s on the bench. while center field might be taken, left field will open up in a few years. that’d be a possibility.
it wouldn’t be a bad idea for jeter to start taking some balls in the the outfield to see if he really is as good as we think he’d be out there. it’d be his choice ,of course, but it would be a nice gesture on his part.
“hmmm – while I agree with that, I don’t think it will happen all that easily. ”
i think you are right. it won’t happen that easily.
and i agree, LF seems like the best fit, followed by 1B.
For all the talk of Rice getting the shaft, the bigger head-scratcher is Parker getting only 11%. He was the same type of player as Rice, with similar numbers and impact and a better OFer. The cocaine thing may be a factor, but it’s hard to believe it’s that big of a difference maker.
Now we are back on the proffer agreement and the rumors about what it is and what McNamee did.
A “proffer agreement” is generally understood to be an agreement between a defendant (or target) and the government that sets forth the terms under which the defendant/target will provide information to the government during an interview, commonly referred to as a “proffer session.” The proffer agreement defines the obligations of the parties and is intended to protect the defendant against the use of his or her statements, particularly in those situations in which the defendant has revealed incriminating information and the proffer session does not mature into a plea agreement or other form of cooperation agreement.
Generally, the information to be provided and the terms of any subsequent immunity/plea arrangment is discussed and informally aggred on between the prosecutor and defense counsel before the proffer session occurs.
Statements made during a proffer session cannot be used against you in a criminal prosecution BUT can be used to impeach you should you try to testify in your own defense.
Proffer sessions are typically discussions and there is no court reporter and the “Queen” is not under oath. Murphydog says that the “Queen” may later be asked to restate his/her statements under oath (orally or in writing). My understanding is that that IS NOT DONE unless a formal plea agreement (or something similar) is later reached — but it may be done in certain circumstances.
Under limited circumstances (which may or may not be present here), and even without being sworn, proffered statements may be used against someone if those statements obstructed justice or otherwise hindered a prosecution.
[Note: At this point my personal knowledge and experience is mixed with various sources I have read over the last month -- if anything I said seems completely wrong, let me know and I will try to source it or correct.]
With 12 minutes to go, I am reminded of a saying my grandfather used to use:
“What’s good for the Goose is good for the…
Hall!”
Go Goose!!!
Raymagnetic:
Yeah if you compile all of their numbers Bernie and Rice look similar. But you are discounting Rice’s dominance in a shorter period of time.
By your logic Player A who hits 40 homers and knocks in 110 runs every year over 8 seasons is the same as Player B who hits 15-20 homers and 75 RBI over 15 or so seasons.
Periods of dominance – in my mind – outweights consistantly good years. But that’s just me. Everyone has their own criteria, however, discounting a player’s dominance by adding up another player’s totals is fleeting to say the least.
Numbers can be twisted which ever way you like to determine Raines or whoever is a better player than Rice. However, there’s something to be said for the idea of: If you are in the bottom of the ninth inning and two players are up – Raines & Rice – which hitter is going to break the game open more often.
LF seems like a logical possibility for Jeter’s final resting place. When you figure the Yankees dont have a projected LF in their system currently, and both Damon and Matsui’s contracts are up after 2009, he could slide out and let a more defense oriented SS slide in (or maybe even earlier than that, should Matsui or Damon be traded).
Jeter has always been a natural at tracking fly balls, and he’s got the legs and a decent enough arm to cover ground in the expansive LF/CF gap.
Looks like they went back to annual HOF elections in 1946:
From Wikipedia: “Because the Baseball Writers Association of America (BBWAA) had failed to elect any candidates in 1945, and had elected only one player since 1939, the previous delay of three years between elections had been eliminated in September 1945 by the Hall of Fame Committee, and annual elections restored.”
But I can’t find any explanation for the lack of balloting in the late 50s or 60s. Did they go to a two-year rotation?
Turn Two -
“Final resting place”??????? It sounds so…final.
Lori,
I haven’t found anything yet, either.
I could see Jeter in LF, but what about his throwing arm. Not sure his throws make it all the way home.
By the way, did anyone notice that Chuck Knoblauch is on the ballot this year? Not a chance in hell he’s getting into the Hall.
And as far as Bernie vs. Rice: 1)how many 200 hit seasons did he have. 2)How many MVP’s or 3)how many top-5 MVP finishes), 4)how many 100 RBI seasons, 5)how many times did he lead the league in total bases.
1) Rice had four and Bernie one
2) Rice 1 MVP & Bern zero
3) Rice five top-5 and Bern zero
4) Rice eight and Bern five
5) Rice four times and Bern zero
ok – here we go.
GOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!
Jeter’s throws don’t have to make it all of the way home from LF…see Knoblauch or Matsui…that is what a cutoff man is for.
Goose is in!!!!!
Congrats to Goose!!!
is Goose the only one?
Only Goose! WOW – Congratulations GOOOOOSE!!!
Yeah, Goose!
Poor Jim Rice 14 votes shy
Congrats to Goose, but I think Rice should have gotten in.
WOO HOO!!!!!!! Congrats Goose!!!!! It’s about damn time!!
I think we should sign Manny to play rover . Therefore Jeter wont have to make throws all the way home. Manny will cut it off and finish the throw home for him.
Gammons must be crying
I just turned on the HOF website’s live coverage…Goose is the only one this year? Well, makes sense, he is peerless!!
I hoped that Blyleven would get in also though…
Does anyone have a list of who is eligible next year
Gayle, From the HOF website:
2009: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams, Mike Williams
There were actually baseball writers who thought that Chuck Knoblauch and Todd Stottlemyre were among the greatest baseball players of all time? That’s a really sad statement.
Out of Doreen’s list, I only see one shoo-in for election out of those candidates, and I don’t think that I have to tell you who that is.
Hint: He’s the greatest of all-time, just ask him!!
rickey in 09
Well, at least the BBWAA got it right and put Goose in. Also glad to see Rice didn’t get in. Maybe the Hall of Very Good for him, but he’s not a Hall of Famer. I really wish that Blyleven and Raines would have gotten in. Both are ridiculously deserving and it’s an absolute shame neither of them are in.
Only one first ballot HOFer there obviously in Rickey.
I know he was a Red Sox, but Rice is getting shafted.
guidry should have won the mvp in 78
Does anyone know what percentage Donnie got if any?
donnie got about 16%
Does Coney have a shot? Maybe not, finished shy of 200 W’s. But 8-3 postseason including 2-0, 2.12 ERA for the World Series isn’t shabby.
Congrats to Goose!
Rickey = 1st ballot.
No way Coney gets in. If he gets in before Blyleven, the Hall of Fame should be ceremoniously burned to the ground for the disgrace that it would be.
Somehow Mark McGwire received the same exact number of votes in this election as he did in the last- 128.
Anyone listening/watching ESPN commentary? Steve Phillips. ‘Nuff said?
Doreen, what is Phillips saying? It’s been a long day so far and I can use a good laugh!
Congrats to the GOOSE!!!
I wonder if he will allowed to wear a Yankees Cap???
Well, Steve Phillips was talking about Rice and Raines. Basically, he said he doesn’t look at stats. He’s a “gut feel” guy and Tim Raines doesn’t “feel” like a Hall of Famer. And even though the other participants (Keith Law, Tim K, and oops, someone else) were citing stats about Raines that makes it unbelievable he didn’t get in, Phillips will not budge. I guess there’s a reason he’s no longer a GM.
More interesting comparison to Bernie is Dwight Evans
Bernie Evans
ABs 7869 8996
Hits 2336 2446
2b’s 449 483
RBI 1257 1384
Avg 297 272
obp 381 370
hr’s 287 385
pretty interesting IMO, although supposedly evans was a superior outfielder
great stuff for goose, hopefully rice gets in next year as i think his #’s warrant it
Doreen, I saw some of that and I learned one other thing: Keith Law is not a fan of Jim Rice. Keith was absolutely shooting down Rice’s chances.
Congratulations to the Goose!
Doreen andJ-Dawg the thing that I found most interesting was the difference in thinking between some of the new writers like Keith Law and the guy from Baseball Prospectus they have on and people like Tim K. Keith Law et al are looking at all the new fangled stats and how players rate in those whereas people like Tim K seem to be looking at more traditional stats. It will be interesting as the voting membership gets younger if this will be a trend.
Steve Phillips doesnt deserve to be on the show he goes but his “gut” and if someone feels like they should be a Hall of Famer
Anyone who bases their decision on stats and not some myth is not a fan of Jim Rice. His numbers just aren’t good enough for the Hall of Fame.
J-Dawg -
Yeah. I got the same thing from him regarding Rice. He LOVES Tim Raines, though!
“Steve Phillips doesnt deserve to be on the show he goes but his “gut†and if someone feels like they should be a Hall of Famer”
Sadly though, Steve Phillips opinions here represent a large number of the voters.
Gayle –
Yes, the difference in perspective was very clear-cut. And I agree with you that when the voting population begins to have more writers who have been brought up with a whole range of newer stats, it will make a difference in the voting.
Steve Phillips is there because he looks good with a blue background. :LOL:
gayle- That’s a very good point that you bring up. The older writers seem to be more interested in Cy Youngs and MVP results and All-Star teams, those kinds of accomplishments. The younger writers seem to pay much more attention to stats and numbers like OBP and the like. That’s just the feeling that I get.
Gayle:
Great point. I’ve been wondering about that same idea myself.
Everyone has their own criteria for HOF voting. Saying someone’s standards or methods of voting someone in is ignorant in itself – even if the voter is as clueless as Steve Phillips.
I believe 75% of the time you can tell if a player is a HOFer just by the mention of his name. And that goes for every sport, not just baseball.
If you have to begin selling candidates by sifting through OPS+ and EQA and on and on… chances are he should not be in the HOF to begin with. This is not a exhibition on who knows more about what made a player great, this is a simple question of “Was he one of the greatest or most dominant players of his generation?”
Tim Raines, sorry you do not fit that bill.
Goooooooooooooose! Alright!
Rice should’ve made it, too.
According to the results of the HOF voting one writer voted for Knoblauch. Huh? What is even remotely HOF worthy of his career?
In all seriousness, and maybe you can answer this Pete, why would a writer “waste” a vote on someone like Knoblauch or Todd Stottlemyre for that matter?
Bronx Liaison, I agree with you. If its not readily evident that someones a hall of famer, then they’re probably not a hall of famer.
Steve Philips is saving all his support for Mo Vaughn.
He is after all Mo’s ho for the rest of his life.
GO GOOSE!
Goose made it…and no one else. The class of 2008 is a class of 1!
Bronx Liaison – so you only want to elect people who play in big markets and get the most media attention?? If Jim Rice played his career in Oakland or Montreal and had those numbers, no one would look twice at him. If Tim Raines played in New York or Chicago his entire career with his numbers he’d be a shoo in. Numbers are the only thing that neutralizes this media attention. To ignore them and vote based on “feel” and “gut” is ridiculous!
maybe Knoblauch had an incentive clause in one of his contracts for getting at least 1 HOF vote
Sh*t…and I thought I’d be the first one with the announcement (45 minutes after). Got scooped! Next year I can see Rice, Ricky, and Coney. I mean how many perfect games have their been?
Will somebody PLEAAAASE call WFAN and inform the genius Russo that steroids and HGH are two different things? But I forget, he knows everything. Sometimes I think he repeatedly says “Pettitte took steroids” just to annoy Yankee fans.
Rickey Henderson gets in first shot, no doubt about it. I think Coney will get some votes, but won’t come close to the 75% needed.
I know he was a Red Sox, but I still say Rice had HOF numbers.
But of course, nobody asked for my opinion so there you go.
: )
Maybe Knoblauch got a vote for being a HOF steroid user. Sorry had to…
Ok this is the first time I have ever seen Keith Law for any large amount of time on ESPN, he is like a gnat very very annoying. IN short spurts he seems fine but for an hour long he is annoying as all
RoDg12:
Has nothing to do with where they played. Rice is a HOFer on the moon and Raines wouldn’t be deserving of the hall if he played his entire career on a Broadway stage.
Knoblauch had HOF type “throwing into the stands from 2B” numbers. I think they added that as a stat back in 2001.
Does anyone remember Mackey Sasser from the Mets? Did he and Knoblauch have the same “condition”?
“I believe 75% of the time you can tell if a player is a HOFer just by the mention of his name. And that goes for every sport, not just baseball.”
and yet in 14 years on the ballot, Rice hasn’t gotten in.
what does that tell you?
And don’t me wrong, I use sabermetrics all the time because they are an incredible window into the inner workings of the game.
However, turning HOF voting into a seminar on VORP is not the objective here. The point – which guys like Keith Law seem to lose – is voting in the best players to ever put on a uniform.
There will always be borderline guys – like Rice – but Raines is about as close to the HOF border as Kansas is Mexico’s.
*get
So dude, I would totally ask what did I miss, but it seems fairly obvious…
“is voting in the best players to ever put on a uniform”
Please explain to me how Rice fits this description??
I think Knoblauch won Rookie of the Year?
Say It Ain’t So –
I heard that from Chris Russo, too! Had to shut it off immediately. What an ignoramus.
There seems to be a tipping point that is reached with some players where they build momentum each year and eventually enough writers are persuaded and they reach the 75% level. Rice is only 14 votes away and would appear to have reached that tipping point. One problem for him though, next year is his last on the regular ballot. Does anyone think he can get those extra votes next year? I think not and I don’t think he will get in with the Veteran’s committee either.
Rod:
I already did.
We agree to disagree. Obviously, we are both passionate about are opinions, but they are just that. I believe Rice is a HOFer. However, I am not going to pretend I have “proof” as if it is a yes and no answer.
When it all comes down, the question is whether or not you believe they belong in the hall. You go with Raines and I go with Rice. I can’t say you are “wrong” but I can say I strongly disagree.
I wonder if race is playing a role in this. If Rice were white, do you think he’d get in? I’m not saying that the writers are being racist. I’m just curious.
are*our“I wonder if race is playing a role in this. If Rice were white, do you think he’d get in?”
Will Clark was twice the player that Jim Rice was, yet he fell off the ballot in his first year.
it’s not a racial thing, b/c he doesn’t deserve to get in.
Bronx Liaison – Do you believe Dick Allen and Don Mattingly are Hall of Famers? Roger Maris?
OMG. I can’t believe I slept through the induction news. Congratulations to Goose Gossage. I don’t know him very well, but those old fashioned saves are much more impressive than the modern 15 run lead saves we have now.
I only wish that at least one other worthy person made it in. My wish is two-fold. First of all, there’d be one less person for the talking heads to debate about. Secondly, Goose will continue his crusade about how the modern baseball player is killing the game with their cheating and greed.
Sadly, what he says is true, but he really railed against Roger after the report came out. I’d like to think he could be a little more genteel about it, but I can understand that he’s old-school. He softened his stance a little in recent days, but only in that he didn’t call out Roger by name.
Even though it was nauseating at times, the Cal & Tony rodeo tour last year was nice. They were great ambassadors of the game.
Good question Laura.. but I don’t think it was race as much that Rice had a Bonds-like relationship with the media and some writers won’t forget that.
“Will Clark was twice the player that Jim Rice was”
Hmmm, you need to take a look at their stats for about 10 seconds before seeing Rice > Clark
Sorry, that first sentence had *sarcasm*.
Laura–
Race has absolutely NOTHING to do with it if anything other than his numbers what may have to do with it is how Rice treated the baseball writers during his playing days which was horribly in terms of giving interviews, friendliness etc.
There have been plenty of players that were the same way ie Steve Carlton however Lefty’snumbers were too overwhelming to have his relationship with the media affect his entrance into the Hall. With Rice that may not be the case.
“I take offense to hearing that Mariano [Rivera] is the greatest relief pitcher ever,†Gossage said.
“If you are in the bottom of the ninth inning and two players are up – Raines & Rice – which hitter is going to break the game open more often.”
Tim Raines is the answer to this question. Really not debatable. OBP of .385 vs .352. Steals 2nd and third with a likelihood of 85% (best of all time) for each base. There’s your guy who just broke the game open.
Well said Gayle and Rod, no Mattingly, Allen and Maris are not HOFers.
Though Dick Allen was a great slugger who hit for good average.
Gayle, you don’t know that race didn’t play a part of it. It could have played a part for particular voters. You don’t know.
NYPD113th,
Where’d you hear that quote? It’s not the first time I’ve heard it, and it’s another example of how Gossage lives with a chip the size of Mt. Rushmore on his shoulders. IMO. Even though I don’t know him very well. lol.
“Hmmm, you need to take a look at their stats for about 10 seconds before seeing Rice > Clark”
So, now stats matter when they support your opinion? Can’t have it both ways.
Look, I love Goose a lot, no one can deny he’s amazing. But he needs to shut up about Mariano already. He’s been going on about this for years. Goose, it’s not an insult to be compared to Mariano Rivera…
big mac…
128 votes 23.6%
If you put Rice in with his “12 yrs of dominance”, how can you not put Dick Allen in?
Dick Allen (1964-74 — 11 years)
Homers (331), 6th in baseball (behind five Hall of Famers)
RBIs (1036), 3rd in baseball (behind two Hall of Famers)
Runs (1228), 1st in baseball (tied with Lou Brock)
Hits (1720), 13th in baseball.
Total bases (3165), 5th in baseball (behind three Hall of Famers and Pete Rose)
Times on base (2568), Tied for 10th in baseball
Batting Average (.295), 15th in baseball
On-base percentage (.381), tied for 9th in baseball.
SLG (.542), 2nd in baseball (behind Hank Aaron)
OPS (.923), 2nd in baseball (behind Willie McCovey)
OPS+ (160), 1st in baseball
NYPD113th,
Where’d you hear that quote?
– NY Post
Oh and I have terrific news. It’s Carl Pavano’s birthday today!
Come on, everyone together now, Happy Birthday Pavyyyy!!
“Race has absolutely NOTHING to do with it if anything other than his numbers what may have to do with it is how Rice treated the baseball writers during his playing days which was horribly in terms of giving interviews, friendliness etc.”
Thanks for the info. I did not know this. Although I was a Yankee fan during those days, I did not pay attention to anything Red Sox other than the games. Nowadays, with the rivalry at an all time high, I know more about the Red Sox players than I did back in the day. Actually, I know more about them than I care to know so it’s a win/lose situation.
Rod:
When did I say stats don’t count.
You are making a comparison of two players. Of course stats count.
I said if you have to sift through countless statistics of a HOF candidate, there is a good chance he does not belong in the hall to begin with.
Comparing Clark and Rice means you have to look at the back of their baseball cards. Do you disagree?
The exact quote was as follows
Pitching in an era when relievers were asked to work multiple innings, Gossage amassed 310 saves.
“I take offense to hearing that Mariano [Rivera] is the greatest relief pitcher ever,” Gossage said.
“If I had been pitching one inning like Mariano, it’s hard to tell what my statistics would have been.”
Race, stats, and comparables all play a part. But don’t underestimate the “good guy” factor. Writers are human and their opinions of players affect how they vote.
It’d be interesting to see how the results for ‘Barry the User’ would compare to ‘Clean Barry’ would compare to a ‘Nice Clean Barry’ would compare to a ‘White Nice Clean Barry’. I’d wager there would be a marked difference in the results.
Dick Allen was a very good player, but in my opinion Rice is the better candidate.
Look year by year and I think that becomes apparent.
Mariano and Goose are apples and oranges when it comes to relief pitching. Goose came out of the bullpen in the days when the “saves” came earlier in the game, with men on base in crucial situations, and often entailed multiple-inning outings. Mariano, it’s a different game now. I don’t think they should be compared head-to-head.
“If I had been pitching one inning like Mariano, it’s hard to tell what my statistics would have been.â€
He’s got a point. Of course, he’s not taking into account the fact that Mo sometimes pitches 2 innings. Didn’t he pitch 3 against the DreadSox in the Boone game?
Well, let’s just say that Goose was facing a bunch of steroid freaks!
You can’t say stats count and vote in Rice ahead of Raines. That’s where I was coming from. The stats CLEARLY back Raines. Unless you believe looking at OBP is “sifting through countless stats”. That’s not even a complicated stat and it shows Raines to clearly be the superior player.
Actually Rice and Bernie Williams both played 16 seasons so I don’t know how you figure Rice did it in a shorter amount of time.
As I’ve already said, I don’t think either is a HOF, but I could cherry pick numbers that Bernie has which are greater than Rice’s numbers. Also, Rice was a much worse hitter away from Fenway and Rice was also a mediocre left fielder known primarily for his bat whereas Bernie was an above average CF and put up similar numbers to Rice.
Bernie is verrry borderline, but his postseason numbers (of course it helped that he played in so many postseasons) are a factor.
I could also say that Rice played in a different ERA where parks weren’t bandboxes and the ball wasn’t juiced, etc.
My Player A and PLayer B hypothetical was just that. It had nothing to do with Bernie and Rice.
I was saying that looking year by year is the best way to determine a HOFer comparison. Just taking the final stats may not paint an accurate picture of a player’s dominance which is certainly the case for Rice.
I have to get back to work.
But it was fun debating with you Rod, you brought up several good points. And Dick Allen was a great example to throw at a pro-Rice voter.
Laura – Yes, but in Mo’s case it is the exception rather than the rule. There’s no doubt that Mo has, hands down, been the greatest closer under the current, generally, one inning at a time. But the fact that he on occasion goes more than one inning doesn’t mean you can compare what he’s done with what Goose did. The guy was a workhorse and was great to watch. I agree with Doreen that comparing the two is like apples and oranges. No question Goose deserved today’s voting results. And in 8 years (or so) time, it will be Mo’s turn.
Hey, I saw Mattingly got some of the votes…do you lot think he’ll get into the hall eventually?
I’m not familiar enough with his on-field accomplishments, so please fill me in!
Just saw a great stat on Goose:
1 out of every 6 of his saves was for more than 7 outs.
52 of his 300 plus saves lasted longer than 2 1/3 innings.
Pretty amazing.
“Hmmm, you need to take a look at their stats for about 10 seconds before seeing Rice > Clark”
really?
career line:
Rice-.298/.352/.502
Clark-.303/.384/.497
OPS+
Rice-128
Clark-137
WARP3-
Rice- 83.2
Clark- 105.2
i guess if we are looking at the stats that YOU think are more important, Rice wins. but your statement doesn’t really hold up.
Clark was a better player, and it’s not particularly close.
A couple of posters have accurately described Jim Rice’s thorny relationship with the press as being a big factor in his annual failure to reach 75%.
His total stats seem borderline HOF, but if you annualize them he becomes the dominant offensive player for roughly a decade. For some people, Rice’s longevity (or lack of said) doom his candidacy.
I’m a Sox fan who saw Rice throughout his career. If he gets in, fine, but I really don’t think it’s a blatant injustice if he doesn’t. It is too bad that old enemies in the media seem to be the tipping point.
“I could also say that Rice played in a different ERA where parks weren’t bandboxes and the ball wasn’t juiced, etc.”
and all this time i thought he played in Fenway park.
Year-by-year. Based on OBP. Who’s better over these 12 years. 1 or 2??
1 2
0.35 vs 0.382
0.315 vs 0.375
0.376 vs 0.396
0.37 vs 0.404
0.381 vs 0.352
0.336 vs 0.375
0.333 vs 0.377
0.375 vs 0.395
0.361 vs 0.42
0.323 vs 0.394
0.349 vs 0.375
0.384 vs 0.327
Considering Rice played half his games in the ultimate bandbox and was demonstrably better playing there you’d be wrong if you made that statement.
Uhh, wouldn’t a sardine can be a better description?
“and all this time i thought he played in Fenway park.”
i didnt know the red sox played there whole season at home. camden yards, skydome, arlington and all the others werent around when rice played.
Rebecca,
Unfortunately Mattingly doesn’t have the numbers to get in. Too few seasons at the highest level. i don’t see how that would change in time, maybe he can someday get in as a manager.
Thanks Bronx. Good debate. I just don’t think the stats hold up for Rice. If his career had gone 5 more years, he probably gets in. But there’s a lot of great sluggers who had short careers and put up numbers that closely match Rice (Dick Allen one prime example). I’m of the opinion that if Rice gets in, the rest have to get in as well. I just don’t feel any are deserving.
Another comparison to Rice I like to use is Albert Belle (even holds weight on the bristly relationship with the media). Compare their stats sometime.
The old Exhibition Stadium in Toronto was a launching pad. So was the old Municipal Stadium in Baltimore. Rice had his share of bandbox ballparks to hit in.
Personally, I thought he should have gotten in. To me, its just another example of the hypocrisy of the voters.
If you (the voters) are ticked off about the Steroid Era, wouldn’t it had made sense to vote in Rice since, he was natural and a dominant power hitter in his time?
The voters complain about the numbers being ruined because of steroids, then use numbers to defend not voting in Rice. Makes no sense to me.
Goose? Should have been in 5 years ago. He was dominant in his day and he routinely pitched 2+ innings to get saves.
Go back and see his work in the ‘78 Playoff Game against the Red Sox. He pitched 3 2/3 innings in, at that time, was the biggest game any of those guys ever played.
The guy was great. Real character too.
Goose accepted Joe Girardi’s invitation a couple of weeks ago to be a guest instructor at ST this year. Perfect timing!
Phil, do you have a link for that, that is awesome.
You made many good points and your conclusion is definitely fair.
And I totally agree with Belle and also made the comparison to Rice earlier. Take away the spector of steroid use with Belle and he is an absolute, no doubt about it HOFer.
That said, he is an obvious performance enhancer which kills his chances. Can’t say I’m crying over that one as I remember trying to get an autograph from Belle and Lofton for my brother. It was actually the Jim Abbott no-hitter game we were at.
I saw Belle standing outside the dugout and tossed him a ball to sign. He looked at it for a second, laughed and threw the ball back to us. That was all I needed to know about Albert “Stalk My Ex-Girlfriend” Belle.
“i didnt know the red sox played there whole season at home. camden yards, skydome, arlington and all the others werent around when rice played.”
ok, but he had the Kingdome instead of Safeco.
Tigers Stadium instead of Comerica.
Metropolitan Stadium in Minnesota was a hitters park.
Exhibition Stadium in Toronto was a hitters park.
you guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for excuses for Rice.
I heard somewhere that Raines had a better carreer on base percentage than Gwynn. I havnt checked into it, but thats pretty impressive if its true.
SJ44 – ‘He may just go from SS to DH. I don’t really see him as a first baseman.’
———————————————————
Jetes has been an infielder his entire career, is 6′3, is very good charging ground balls and is great going back on popups. Seems to me he should be at least (on D) a league average 1Bman. Because of/assuming his numbers in the future lessen, he might end up barely average (O and D) at first. As a DH, he would be easily replacable.
Bronx Liaison -
Rice v. Raines v. Allen
Dick Allen has FAR better numbers then Rice in offense, and blows Rice away on defense and running. It’s not even close. Are you even looking at their numbers.
OPS: Rice-0.854 (half games at fenway) Allen: 0.912
OPS+: Rice: 128 Allen: 156
Rice does not compare to Allen in ANY of the baseball skills except HRs, where they were about even.
Do you think that running and defense have any meaning when evaluating an MLB player? Raines is widely considered the 2nd best lead-off man in history (with Ricky being #1)
“By a methodology called “JAWS” that I’ve used to evaluate the Hall of Fame ballot for Baseball Prospectus since 2004, Raines is overwhelmingly qualified for election. According to JAWS he ranks as the ninth-best left-fielder of all time, behind Barry Bonds, Stan Musial, Rickey Henderson, Ted Williams, Pete Rose, Jim O’Rourke, Ed Delahanty and Carl Yastrzemski — some pretty fair ballplayers. If that sounds crazy, consider that James himself ranked Raines eighth in his New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract back in 2001, calling him the second-most valuable leadoff hitter in history, behind only Henderson. He was that good.” (notice NO Jim Rice)
1) Raines was above average on D, Rice below average.
2) Raines is one of the best runners/basestealers in the history of the game, Rice below average.
3) Raines has 750 MORE SBs then Rice. If you take 80% of that (600) and change 600 of Raines’ singles to doubles, his OPS is WELL Higher then Rice. Offensive number that DO consider SBs
4) Rice’s OPS is .130 lower away from Fenway, below .790
5) Rice retired at 36 while Raines played until 43, 7 years more.If Jim played longer, his HR would have gone up (but he still would not approach 500), but his average, OBP and OPS would go down. Has Raines quit 5 years earlier (and he only had 13 SBs in his last 5 years), his BA, OBP and OPS would be way higher.
6) Lastly, in the all-important RC/G category, Rice is at 6.0 compared to Raines at 6.6 (EVEN including all of Raines declining years). Meaning a team full of Raines’s scores 100 more runs in a season then a team full of Rices. And that doesn’t account for the additional Runs Allowed by Rice because of substancially worse defense.
Here’s another stat where Raines blows Rice away:
http://img123.imageshack.us/im.....355uo3.png
Rice was very much a product of Fenway, as all his numbers reflect (even if you memory doesn’t). As far as being a ‘great’ HR hitter, he hit more then 30 HRs only 4 years of his career.
A lot of people think David Eckstein is an excellent player, because the TV media loves to talk about how ‘gritty’ he is, how much heart he has. I’m sure there are fan who think he’s better then Andre Dawson (who?).
Rice was very, very good. He played at a level that many palyers played at. Not-quite-HOF. If Rice gets in, by-the-numbers, a whole large group of other players get in, and the HOF become the hall of very, very good.
Other then your sacred opinion, do you have ANY FACTS at hall to back up your conclusions?