Do you think that running and defense have any meaning when evaluating an MLB player? Raines is widely considered the 2nd best lead-off man in history (with Ricky being #1)

“By a methodology called “JAWS” that I’ve used to evaluate the Hall of Fame ballot for Baseball Prospectus since 2004, Raines is overwhelmingly qualified for election. According to JAWS he ranks as the ninth-best left-fielder of all time, behind Barry Bonds, Stan Musial, Rickey Henderson, Ted Williams, Pete Rose, Jim O’Rourke, Ed Delahanty and Carl Yastrzemski — some pretty fair ballplayers. If that sounds crazy, consider that James himself ranked Raines eighth in his New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract back in 2001, calling him the second-most valuable leadoff hitter in history, behind only Henderson. He was that good.” (notice NO Jim Rice)

1) Raines was above average on D, Rice below average.
2) Raines is one of the best runners/basestealers in the history of the game, Rice below average.
3) Raines has 750 MORE SBs then Rice. If you take 80% of that (600) and change 600 of Raines’ singles to doubles, his OPS is WELL Higher then Rice. Offensive number that DO consider SBs
4) Rice’s OPS is .130 lower away from Fenway, below .790
5) Rice retired at 36 while Raines played until 43, 7 years more.If Jim played longer, his HR would have gone up (but he still would not approach 500), but his average, OBP and OPS would go down. Has Raines quit 5 years earlier (and he only had 13 SBs in his last 5 years), his BA, OBP and OPS would be way higher.
6) Lastly, in the all-important RC/G category, Rice is at 6.0 compared to Raines at 6.6 (EVEN including all of Raines declining years). Meaning a team full of Raines’s scores 100 more runs in a season then a team full of Rices. And that doesn’t account for the additional Runs Allowed by Rice because of substancially worse defense.

Here’s another stat where Raines blows Rice away:
http://img123.imageshack.us/im.....355uo3.png

Rice was very much a product of Fenway, as all his numbers reflect (even if you memory doesn’t). As far as being a ‘great’ HR hitter, he hit more then 30 HRs only 4 years of his career.

A lot of people think David Eckstein is an excellent player, because the TV media loves to talk about how ‘gritty’ he is, how much heart he has. I’m sure there are fan who think he’s better then Andre Dawson (who?).

Rice was very, very good. He played at a level that many palyers played at. Not-quite-HOF. If Rice gets in, by-the-numbers, a whole large group of other players get in, and the HOF become the hall of very, very good.

Other then your sacred opinion, do you have ANY FACTS at hall to back up your conclusions?

ok, but he had the Kingdome instead of Safeco.
Tigers Stadium instead of Comerica.
Metropolitan Stadium in Minnesota was a hitters park.
Exhibition Stadium in Toronto was a hitters park.

you guys are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for excuses for Rice.

I saw Belle standing outside the dugout and tossed him a ball to sign. He looked at it for a second, laughed and threw the ball back to us. That was all I needed to know about Albert “Stalk My Ex-Girlfriend” Belle.

And I totally agree with Belle and also made the comparison to Rice earlier. Take away the spector of steroid use with Belle and he is an absolute, no doubt about it HOFer.

Personally, I thought he should have gotten in. To me, its just another example of the hypocrisy of the voters.

If you (the voters) are ticked off about the Steroid Era, wouldn’t it had made sense to vote in Rice since, he was natural and a dominant power hitter in his time?

The voters complain about the numbers being ruined because of steroids, then use numbers to defend not voting in Rice. Makes no sense to me.

Goose? Should have been in 5 years ago. He was dominant in his day and he routinely pitched 2+ innings to get saves.

Go back and see his work in the ’78 Playoff Game against the Red Sox. He pitched 3 2/3 innings in, at that time, was the biggest game any of those guys ever played.

The guy was great. Real character too.

Goose accepted Joe Girardi’s invitation a couple of weeks ago to be a guest instructor at ST this year. Perfect timing!