Pinch hitting: Pinstripe Alley
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 10, 2008 
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January is usually a slow month for baseball news. So we’ve lined up a series of guest bloggers to entertain you. Next up is John from Pinstripe Alley.
John posts for Pinstripe Alley under the handle jscape2000. Here’s his post. It’s about league average pitching.
I think we can all agree that the team does better when the starter goes deeper into the game. When the Yanks can count on each of their starters to throw a quality start it saves wear on the valuable arms in the pen and it keeps the mediocre arms out of sight.
The Yankees gave 30 starts to pitchers with below average ERAs who had shouldn’t have been used for more than an emergency start (Igawa, Clippard, DeSalvo, Karstens, Henn, and Wright). Mike Mussina made another 27 starts with a 5.15 ERA and 1.47 baserunners per inning (WHIP).
That motley crew averaged just under 5 innings per start, while the rest of the Yankees’ staff averaged 6 innings per start. It might seem like asking the bullpen for an extra two innings each week isn’t that big a deal, but it is.
Consider: Brian Bruney and his 1.62 WHIP pitched 50 innings. If the starters could have given the Yanks another innings of league average performance they would have allowed 11 fewer baserunners. That would have taken about 5 runs off the scoreboard.
So here’s the big change that the mainstream media doesn’t really talk about: The young guns don’t have to be especially great, they just have to be there.
Pettitte and Wang will need to repeat their solid numbers. Roger Clemens was merely average – I bet IPK can be average. Mike Mussina figures to be the same awful pitcher he has been. Hopefully Joe G doesn’t stick with him as long as Joe T did. I would trade him in a heartbeat.
Phil Hughes and Joba have to be better than Kei Igawa and Jeff Karstens. That’s not exactly like replacing Koufaux and Drysdale. An improvement to merely league average would be worth a couple wins to a team that just won 94 games.
If the young guns can manage a league average 4.47 in Igawa/Clippard/DeSalvo/Karsten/Henn’s 171.2 innings they would allow 47 fewer runs over the course of the season. That would move the pitching staff from 8th to 5th (3 ER behind the Angels for 4th). That moves the Pythag record from 97 wins to 101 wins.
If the Yankees can do that, then next year will be a very good year.
Thanks to John for the post. More guest blogs are on the way this month. We’ve had them for seven days in a row now.
Very good points John. Realistic and certainly possible.
It also raises the importance of guys like Hawkins, Farnsworth, and the seemingly unending group of wildcards that make up the bullpen. It will be interesting to watch one of the most competitive Spring’s in recent memory.
Looks like the M’s are closing in on Bedard. Hopefully it will mean a Santana resolution is closer, but that is just wishful thinking. The Mets can get him, but refuse to part with Fernando Martinez:
http://bronx-bomberz.blogspot.com/
i basically agree, but even if everyone is healthy, there’ll need to be a 6th starter w/some significant innings because of the limitations likely to be in place for the youngsters. for example, off the top of my head, i think something like this is the maximum IP that can be reasonably expected:
Pettite – 210
Wang – 210
IPK – 190
Hughes – 150
Joba – 150
so, I’d see Mussina getting 100ish IP as a starter, something like that, under this scenario.
190 innings isn’t bad for Kennedy but remember Wang was DL a couple of times these last two years,alsoPettite was on the DL with that Elbow early this year.Santana’s 220 innings solves that.Also we have to deal with three rooikes going thouh those rough outings.
The Mets aren’t giving up anything great for the Twins to put in their rotation right now so they want more quanity.
And that’s if nobody’s hurt, which never happens.
McLovin,
Wang was on the DL with a minor hamstring pull along with what seemed like 1/2 the team.
Pettitte missed 1 or 2 starts with a back spasm. He didnt have any issues related to his elbow. He has also thrown 200 innings for 3 straight years.
Great post. We need Wang to be a vision of health and durability this year, same with Pettitte. With Wang, last year seemed to be an anomoly in terms of freak (hamstring) injuries (so hopefully he’ll stay healthy), and Pettitte has seemingly surpassed his injury issues.
IPK is an essential component because of the innings he has logged thus far. Moose will need to contribute a lot in order to offset the inning caps for Hughes and Joba. Joba seemed particularly gassed as the season ended so I don’t expect more than 130-150 innings from him.
Hughes only got up to around 110 innings last year (due to injuries) so even 150 big league innings from him might be asking for a lot (although he’ll probably get there).
Great point about the relievers. We didn’t have a great bullpen last year, but this year, as long as the starters log some innings, we should be okay (and less runs, more wins will be the result). That’s why it’s more important for the Yanks to have a long-man in their pen this year and not worry so much about their lefty specialist.
Stick Igawa in there. He has to be in the pen in 2008. The investment for him was a lot, but right now, he’s making what, 4-mill a year? That sounds about right for a decent long-man/emergency starter/innings insurance.
Actual information! Thank you, John.
*Knicks Fans*
We invite you to join the MVN Knicks section better known as Father Knickerbocker for Knicks updates and discussions.
http://mvn.com/nba-knicks/
LOL! if the Yankees prospects are league average the Yankees will win 101 games. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight…
iYankees – I agree on Igawa. Maybe not put him on the initial roster, but with the crazy prices people pay for ANY pitchers these days, knowing that he can be thrown in there in blowout games, or to take over when someone inevitably gets injured, is not such a bad thing.
There’s no denying that the Yankees overpaid for him and so far haven’t gotten anything in return, but the Yankees aren’t hurting for money so let’s put the “overpaid” part out of the equation for the time being and still cross our fingers that he can prove to be useful in some capacity.
Fanciful post based on mathematical certencies which look good on paper only. Writer states through better pitching performances, Yanks will allow 47 less runs accounting for several wins over the length of season.No where does he state that chances Yanks will score same number of runs will take place.I believe Posada will show a dropoff in RBIs as well as a couple of other players production.Two OFs are getting old.More important are the constant statements regarding absolutely inexperienced pitchers doing an ” average or better job than their predecessors” will take place.Law of averages to me shows that a staff of 3 pitchers who havn’t gone a complete season spells big trouble in 2008. Furthermore, the so called Cashman pen is almost non existant.The only thing ths poster has conveyed to me is that the Yanks are in desperate need of more EXPERIENCED pitching if they are to get out of their “also ran ” status which we have been looking at for 3-4 years.
Definitely fanciful. You’re assuming A-Rod and Posada repeat career years, and that the rest of the offense, the majority of which is turning 34, won’t regress at all as they age. Plus you’re cherry picking stats. You’re leaving in the stats of all the pitchers that did well, and taking out all the stats of the pitchers who didn’t do well and replacing them with league average pitching.
If every team with a decent offense had pitching that was almost all league average or better, they’d all win 90-100 games. Not to mention, you don’t account for injury, or the fact that Hughes, IPK or Joba will have innings caps. Who will pitch the rest of those innings?
It’s a nice exercise in what could happen if everything goes right for the Yankees. It’s not a sound method if you want to get a realistic idea of what the Yankees 2008 X W-L will be like though.
What the Yankees have is great batting which is why the yankees are the only team in the playoffs for so long. In order to win a championship it will take more than that for sure. Good pitching is the answer. Without getting into whether the yankees should or shouldn’t do the Santana deal look at what the yankees have now. They have a proven starter in Wang maybe not an ace maybe a ace it doesn’t matter. 19 wins a year with this offense is expected maybe up to 22 but we’ll have to wait and see. Pettitte is worth about 15 to 17 wins though there might be surprises. Mussina can be counted on to win 10 to 12 games at least and eat up innings. Each one of the 3 can be expected to pitch less and win about if they can play as expected 13 to 16 wins maybe better. 83 to 99 wins can be expected IF they all get to play.
Not only is this fanciful, but you did the math wrong. You used league average ERA to calculate how many runs the Yankees starters would give up with league average performances. Then you used Runs Scored which includes unearned runs as well as earned runs to calculate the Yankees Pythag record. If you messed up a concept as simple as that, I imagine you likely made other mathematical mistakes as well.
The main problem will start ONLY if there is a problem giving all starters their starts. If Mussina has problems or if one of the 3 is not allowed to start his starts or if someones injured. That’s where the bullpen and backups are needed. Not to say the bullpen is not needed about every day but with a strong start and a great offense their mainly for close games and bad starts. That’s where the minors come in. Not that Farnsworth and Hawkins are bad just we need more. Out of our minors Igawa and Karstens should be moved to long relief. Albaladejo is also to be played but not really long relief just relief.
Don’t be such a jackass, Smadar.
He makes a lot of good points and one of the better guest posts we’ve seen this far.
(To clarify, earned run totals, and runs give up are two different things)
Um, how am I being a jackass? The main point of the article was based on math that he obviously did incorrectly. That’s a fact, not me being a jackass.
And if you replace Wakefield, Tavarez and Gagne’s innings last year with league average pitching form Buchholz, Lester and Delcarmen, I bet the Red Sox would win 110 games according to Pythageron record. I’ll shit my pants if that happens.
This brings up the point that has been deeply argued for and against the 3 week rotation. It can be a great idea or it can be not such a good idea. With giving two out of three weeks starts we give each one of the young guys less innings and almost normal starts. If you add to that some long relief on the third week the one they are not starting it gives them not too much rest which is not wanted. On the other hand such a system has never been tested . It might not work as planned. The Yankees should look into this idea and try it Spring Training where they try out many ideas. It will give the Yankees a look at it and IF it works a solution to the 5 start rotation and a solution to innings.
Put your money where your mouth is and write a sensible rebuttal.
Great Post.I think Mussina will do much better in 2008 than in 2007. It always seems Mussina will come up with better performance on his walk year every time out. I think he will give Yankees around 150-170 innings with better ERA.
Hughes did logged around 150 inning in 2006 if I don’t make mistakes, so I think he will be good to go around 150-170 innings this season.
The only problem is Joba because I think he will have inning limit around 140 innings. That’s why I think he will go back to bullpen at the end of season.
METS to get Johan Santana? Appears like it might be getting closer…
Sorry, for to link the story on last post of Johan to Mets maybe…
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/200.....-the-mets/
I still think Igawa will do much better this season if he doesn’t lose confidence in himself because of first season. Most Japanese pitchers have good command and control based on my observations. Igawa just can’t get used to that kind of ball MLB use because there is big difference on seam of ball between MLB and Asian ballgames use. If Igawa can make a adjustment on pitching in the low strike zone, he will be fine. Don’t forget he was an ACE in one of big club in Japan for many years. He should be able to handle the role as No.4 or No.5 in MLB.
EXCELLENT post John, best of the pinch hitters.
I would differ though, because the same issues are gonna come up, injuries, ineffectiveness and inning limits are going to force a different cast of characters to pitch just like last year.
another thing is that alot of the extra innings the bullpen pitched were because the bullpen sucked. lots of 9th 10th and 11th innings were pitched that maybe didnt have to be if the bullpen had pitched better, not to mention the extra stress put the next reliever when a 4 run lead was reduced to a 1 run lead.
i dont see out pitching being much better this year than last, but i do see it being much better next year.
Smadar – He used the *difference* between league average ERA and the ERA of Igawa/Clippard/DeSalvo/Karsten/Henn over 171.2 innings. Unless you have some reason to believe their replacements will give up more un-earned runs, and there is no sensible reason to believe that, the math is valid.
Obviously, the pythag projection is based on the Yanks scoring the same number of runs on offense, as well as identical production from the rest of the team, but I dont think his point was to predict how the Yankees will perform this year, just how the pitching staff can improve by replacing some of the awful production they had last year with just average performances. And he did that accurately and well.
Best guest blog yet. I’ll be adding Pinstripe Alley to my favorites.
Good post, interesting points. And I agree about Mussina as well. I could never really warm up to him. Whenever I hear he’s starting, I get that same feeling I get when I hear we’re having leftovers for dinner – ugh, oh well, it’s only once a week. As long as Girardi has options he won’t have to push the kids too awful much. Remember the scare Wang’s arm gave us a couple of years ago? It should be a fun year though.
until something REAL happens i am declaring a personal moratorium on the following:
former pitchers who pitched for BOS and NYY
former senators
former trainers
ace pitchers of teams in the upper midwest.
Thanks for the post, John. Although it’s difficult to predict what the season will actually bring, I think it is imperative for the starting pitching to go deeper into the games. The fewer innings, especially in consecutive games, that the bullpen has to give, the more effective they should be.
I think overuse in terms of the relief pitchers early in the season had a snowball effect, because they never really recovered as a group.
Re: Santana to the Mets. In every report that Santana is said to be going to a particular team, there is always the Twins wanting something else or something more. I seriously doubt a deal gets done with anyone. I surely don’t see the Red Sox or the Yankees capitulating, though I’ll admit the Mets may be desperate enough to say, what the heck, it’s Santana, let’s do it – we have no one else.
John’s right, regardless of the math.
Just based on common sense and what we saw last year, Hughes, Joba and IPK have to be better than Igawa, TClip, Wright, DeSalvo, Karstens, even assuming innings limits and lack of MLB experience for the Three Musketeers. (Does anybody see one of the Big Three giving up four HRs in a row this season?)
An interesting wild card is Igawa. If he can make a real contribution, starting or out of the pen, that would be a huge plus this season. I hope Jessica is right.
Is there any Igawa news from the off season?
yeah, that article doesnt say anything breaking or new from what we heard a month ago. if the mets basically give them 5 for 1, including both OF prospects, they can have Johan… but there isnt a single pitcher in that deal better than Jeff Marquez, let alone Phil Hughes or IPK.
Interesting article, for sure.
I think it’s pretty clear who the Yanks 6 starting pitchers are (Wang, Pettitte, the big 3 and Moose).
Early in the year, Karstens/Rassner would probably be No. 7, though surely Horne will get some consideration, especially as the season wears on…
I’m fairly happy about Horne being available, since it gives the Yankees a safety blanket once the inevitable nicks and pulls happen.
Looks good on paper…er ah..my computer screen!
Good post!
Mussina will be closely watching early in spring training to see if he’s lost even more life off his fastball than 2007 showed. 87-88 mph just won’t cut it in 2008.
Possibly the Yankees can get lucky and see Mussina waive his no trade clause and deal him to Philly or the Mets. It’s not like there’s a big hole to fill with the likes of IPK, Alan Horne, or another high prospect waiting in the wings.
I think everyone on this blog should write a letter to Congress telling them what a joke we think these hearings are. I hope Bud is happy at the circus this has turned into. I bet he is in a way, because he has gotten off scott free. I know revenues have risen while he was commish, but I think he will still go down as one of the worst.
i like the idea, behind the numbers, that if you clean up a weak area on the team , the team will improve. joba,hughes, and kennedy should be an improvement over the assortment of emergency starters that were thrown in there.
but getting away from the number crunching, a lot of those replacement starters were at the beginning of the year because of injuries to pettitte, wang, and mussina. what happens if those same three get injured again?
for all the improvements the yankees have made, they have yet to hire a conditioning and performance coach to make sure they don’t come out of spring training out of shape as a team as they did last year. the injuries to pettitte,wang, and mussina were all under the watch of marty miller. if he didn’t cause them , he certainly didn’t help.
if the yankees are going to count so heavily on joba,hughes,and kennedy while massaging their innings,i just kinda,sorta, maybe think a conditioning and performance coach might help.
you know, like every other team has.
Keith-
I don’t think Mussina would want to go thru the season with a fb of 80. They are all men of pride, he would not want to struggle the entire season.
Nicely done, John.
I’m wondering whether or not Mussina has done anything in the off season to strengthen his arm. Another April/early May of 85 mph meatballs to major league hitters, and he’ll be back in Montoursville coaching the high school team in no time flat. Mr. Drysdale at Montoursville Building and Loan will be happy to find some room in the vault for the $11 million.
Signing Moose for two years before last season was not a good move.
Randy l -
The Yankees have one. You just don’t think he’s qualified enough, correct?
It is interesting though, that the Red Sox list 5 people who are in some way responsible for strength/performance/conditioning/rehab.
The Yankees, though, do have a massage therapist listed.
Marlins don’t list a performance and conditioning coach at all.
And, just as a point of interest, I knew the Devil Rays changed their name to simply, the Rays, but did you also know that they got rid of the manta ray logo and replaced it with a ray of sunshine??????
signing Moose for two years was a great move. it provides a known quantity at a reasonable rate for SP insurance, and built a bridge to help ease the young guys into the staff… it just turns out that the young guys developed more quickly than expected.
is he a top 3 of the rotation guy? no, but he wasnt brought back to be that. as dennis green would say, “he is who we thought he was!”
“for all the improvements the yankees have made, they have yet to hire a conditioning and performance coach to make sure they don’t come out of spring training out of shape as a team as they did last year. ”
I asked Pete about this, and you’re wrong.
quoth PAbe:
As was widely written at the time, they promoted Dana Cavalea to the job and he did just fine. He’ll have the job again next season.
Keith, at this point, NYY are in no position to give up a veteran starter like Mussina. He’s going to have to pick up about 170 innings this year. That’s in addition to approximately 430 innings from Wang and Pettitte, 300-325 innings from Hughes and Chamberlain combined and 170-185 innings from Kennedy. Using the high end of those numbers, that’s 1110 innings. With NYY playing 1480 innings this year, figuring in about 20 extra innings for games going past 9 innings. That means the bullpen will need to pick up the remaining 370 innings. This is all based on no injuries. Mussina is going to play as important a role as every other starter NYY has to keep bullpen innings under control. They can’t have any more 500 inning seasons from the bullpen.
“I’m wondering whether or not Mussina has done anything in the off season to strengthen his arm. Another April/early May of 85 mph meatballs”
In 06, Moose credited his hot start with having built up a lot of arm strength in ST by just pounding his FB the whole time. Last year, he missed half of ST and the first month of the season. I really think that had a lot to do with his lack of velocity. And he couldn’t improve it during the season because he needed to get outs, because the games counted. He had to throw all his offspeed stuff.
I feel pretty confident that Moose can rebound to league average this season, provided that he’s healthy all spring.
Moose is as good a #4 or 5 as there is in the league. he’ll provide league-average innings for an offense who should be able to score him a ton of runs most days that he takes the hill.
i have NO confidence in mussina and i dont subscribe to the theory that they need his innings cause his innins SUCK! Hes another 5 innings guy which stresses the bullpen. id rather see Karstens out there, at least theres the chance that he’s improving, not deteriorating before our eyes.
Bernie, it doesn’t make a bit of difference whether you have confidence in Mussina or not, as long as Girardi, the Yankees and just as importantly, Mussina has confidence.
gb
so there is no purpose to any of us commenting on the yankees cause it has no effect on what the yankees do anyway
re:mussina, remember his terrible performance last year happended when he was a #3 guy. what happens when you make him a #5/6 and he gets irregular starts, long rest, etc. his record with long or short rest has been worse than regular starts.
Bernie-
You can’t possibly be serious. You’d rather have Karstens out there, if that isn’t a joke I don’t know what is. Joe T was always quick with the hook. The first sign of trouble he was pulling the pitcher out of the game, istead of having confidence that they can work thru it. If you recall a game against the tigers (?) Mike had a shut out going with 2 outs in the 9th. HE HAD A RP WARMING UP!! (no wonder they all burnt out, they were always up!!) Mike let a run? or a baserunner, and Joe was about to go and take him out! Mike wanted to finish the game and yelled to Joe to let him finish, and guess what??? HE DID!!!
Bernie –
Wrong again, in the past you may have been correct. Mike stated last year, that he realizes a couple of extra days off here and there benifit him.
Another thing everyone forgets the season that Mike had in 2006, that warrented the Yankees giving him that contract. Go back and look he was in the top 3 or 5 in many categories. He would have gotten a 2 year on the open market at probably more money per. But he wanted to finish his career with the Yankees.
I like Mike a lot – I think he adds knowledge to the young guns. Didn’t he teach Hughes how to throw a splitter? I’d love to see him as a pitching coach someday – he’d be fabulous.
That all said I hope he doesn’t bomb this year like last.
guys, he’s toast. he cant get away with throwing those meatballs in the AL East. if he shows anything in ST they should tell him hes not gonna be in the rotation so he should waive his NTC and let them trade him to Philly where he’ll pitch in the rotation in a much easier division/league where it will take them several looks to figure out his assortment of pitches.
Of course it means sending him over with about $6M but thats better than paying $11M.
Oh god this coming from someone who probably thinks that Bernie should still be playing.
If you recall he had hamstring issues all season, this is one of the reasons he had a drop in velocity. If he can come into the season healthy and free of hamstring issues he should be able to get back a few mph on his fb.
jennifer
what mike stated last year has no effect on how well he pitched last year. also bear in mind that the team had decided that he was gonna get extra rest whether he liked it or not, so he was only bowing to the decision that had been made because he was lousy.
Thanks for all the great comments.
Re: the Offense and Runs Scored
I have to agree that there’s no guarantee that the offense will score 968 runs next season. They scored 930 in 2006, I think that’s a reasonable goal. 970 is not impossible.
We have to expect a lower level of performance from at least Jorge and Arod. But if Giambi stays (relatively) healthy, along with more consistent performances from Matsui, Melky, and Abreu then I think it should balance out.
Also, not giving 350 ABs to the offensive blackhole of Phillips, Cairo, and Nieves should help.
jenn
wrong again, i think bernie’s forced retirement came a year too late
Lets just say this though, no one can ever accuse Mike of using roids. If you’ve ever seen him in person up close he is tall and lanky.
Bernie, where do you fugure that extra 170 innings is coming from? Another rookie starter who’s never been past AA ball, or, just tack it on to the bullpen totals?
*figure*
read above where i said id rather see karstens out there, at least there’s the chance that he’s improving instead of imploding
Karstens is being looked at as the long man in the pen.
GreenBeret7
Now don’t fall off your chair when I tell you this, he stated before Jeff Karstens.
No offense to Jeff.
I think Jeff would do fine in the pen, just not as a starter.
I miss bernie, Why you always up to giving karstens the fifth starting position. He’s not as good as the 3. He was great this year on the U.S. Team but for the yankees he hopefully will be a great long relief pitcher and when there’s an opening do a start.
“If you’ve ever seen him in person up close he is tall and lanky.”
This is hilarious to me, that he’s tall and lanky in person. I’m sure he is…but doesn’t he always look like kind of a little guy out there on the field? I guess my sense of scale gets all distorted by the general hugeousity of pro athletes. Like…Wang looks like kind of a tall guy to me…but isn’t he 6’5″?? That’s HUGE in real life.
Karstens and Rasner arent bad options as the long man out of the pen, but they shouldnt be getting regular starts instead of Moose, at least out of spring training.
Jennifer, Karstens may get a spot start, but, mainly, he’ll work the long innings in the pen, or, at least, that’s what’s being planned and hoped for. Just like always, everything will depend on injuries. I wouldn’t expect to see Horne before the All-Star break at the earliest, again depending on injuries.
Mind you I’m 5 feet tall, so when I’ve stood next to Mike and taken a picture, he has to hunch over.
i wasnt giving him the #5 spot unless some1 gets injured. id like to see wang/pettite and the big 3 in the rotation for as long as possible and karstens as the spot/long relief guy. i know his stats were brutal last year but i cant see mussina being able to work in that spot or out of the bullpen because he’s a ‘feel’ pitcher who has never worked out of the pen and you need at least a decent fastball out of the pen
Nice, optimistic post.
Really, the wild card is Mussina because he lost a lot last year in terms of stuff. I think that Mussina sticks around and will make the best of it. He was never my favorite pitcher, an old grouse to whom fault never belonged, in his eyes. But he was humbled last year when he was benched for his, how shall we say, “suckiness”. And he responded well. I think that Mussina has value…if we don’t DEPEND on him every fifth day. I think his presence will be invaluable to his prototype Kennedy. He’s proved to be flexible and he knows the deal, this is a meritocracy so he’ll have to pitch well to pitch at all. And it’d be a shame if Mussina was traded and the team won it all without him.
I’m also glad for the Clippards and DeSalvos of the world who found new homes. In the old days if you were good, you were trade bait. If you weren’t good, you had no chance to make it to the Bronx and you’d wallow in the system or just fade away, but with the state of pitching nowadays even if you’re not so good, you can still find a place in the league.
I’m also glad that the next class of pitchers are supposed to be really good. It’s also a blessing in disguise that Pavano broke his ass. (Silver lining?) Because the Big 3 were able to get their feet wet and IMO they handled the pressure well. In fact, it’s safe to say that we wouldn’t have made the playoffs without them, all things being equal (ya know Alex’s MVP season and all that).
John’s got it right in that we have more than enough guys to trot out there. The only thing is that they’re basically unknown entities and they’re on IP. But they should be able to give a lot more than last year’s “motley crew”.
Worried? Who’s worried? These are the Yankees.
(diclaimer: I’m a little worried about Andy. We really need him this year to help transition the staff. Hopefully, he’ll stay strong because this congressional stuff looks serious)
Bernie, did you forget about Mussina’s bullpen appearances in the playoffs? Depending on how the Yankees split up the starts in order to control the innings, I’m guessing about 25-27 starts each for Hughes, Chamberlain, Kenney and Mussina, provided they are all affective and healthy.
They should have signed Mussina for ONE year only. He’s done. Major league hitters recognize the breaking stuff, lay off, and sit on his batting practice fastball. I’d much rather go with one of the Triple-A guys. Girardi had almost a whole team of Triple-A guys at Florida…he knows how to use them. There were times last year when Torre had to get Moose off the mound for his own personal safety.
*Kennedy*
gb
“…provided they are effective….” thats my point, he’s not.
How do you know Mussina won’t be affective, Bernie? Hopefully, you’re not still using that Magic 8 Ball. How about at least waiting for spring training.
Doreen,
Re your earlier post on the Rays:
They had been promoting the “new look” in the paper and on tv for months. They had a big promotion with Kazmir and Crawford modeling the new uni’s. Well from what I say and heard most people went “that’s it?” The new look is very understated and really boring IMO. Freidman (the owner) basically said they wanted a break from the past. Kind of like the Bucs did down here when they went away from the “Bucco Bruce ” logo and the orange uniforms.
Re the guest post:
Nice summary of what I’ve said re the young pitchers, I think they can do better than the rooks they ran out there last year. The offense may slip some but net/net I think they win around the same number of games as last year.
The guest bloggers bring new prosepctives to the forum and criticizing is fine, but be prepared to back up that criticism with facts or be flamed.
Yes, John, Girardi had as whole team of AAA pitchers in Florida and at the end of the season, four of them had arm surgery..two with ligament replacement.
what I “saw” and heard. Yikes.
gb
everything here is supposition. how do u know that the big 3 arent gonna be bad, or that pettite isnt going to spend time on the dl or that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.
im basing my OPINION (as you are) on what i’ve seen and what i expect to happen. Mussina has been deteriorating and ageing (much like myself) and i dont think anything short of hgh is going to make his fastball improve. without it(fastball, not hgh), he’s toast
I could see Karstens as the 2008 version of Ramiro Mendoza or as his was called by his teammates “Dosa”.
John Wayne…I didn’t know that. Yikes. But, it doesn’t alter the fact that we can’t have Mussina on the mound with a mid-eighties fastball. There are hitters all over the AL just drooling to get a shot at him. He’s always been a “stuff” pitcher, with a sneaky fastball. Not anymore.
Could be another 1B competing with Giambi, Betemit & Duncan:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....827724.htm
“The Yankees have one. You just don’t think he’s qualified enough, correct?
It is interesting though, that the Red Sox list 5 people who are in some way responsible for strength/performance/conditioning/rehab.”
doreen-
right you are. dana cavalea is now the official yankee strength and conditioning coach.
right you are that i don’t think he’s qualified for this position.
i doubt he could even qualify for any one of those red sox jobs you mention.
he is 25 years old. he has a bachelor degree. he’s been working on his first advanced degree -”M.S.- Sports Performance and Injury Prevention Currently Completing, CalU”
CALU is california university of pennsylvania. it has a lot of online programs.
dana may not be qualified but he did stay at a holiday inn last night.
i realize this is my own particular pet peeve in thinking that a world class athletic organization like the yankees should have a world class conditioning coach, but in todays high tech sports medicine world where advanced degrees are essential, having a conditioning coach who is 25 years old and has no more college education than say ian kennedy is beyond incompetent. i have no idea what cashman is thinking.
give the red sox plus 5 games on the difference between the two teams conditioning staffs.
yeah randy and give the red sox 5 more b/c they have better hot dogs than the yanks, it has about the same effect IMO.
Let the Mussina hate begin. Maybe we shouyld just cut him and not even let him report.
relax on the conditioning staff stuff. these guys are professional athletes, and most of whom have their own personal trainers and training regiments.
IMO, thats part of the reason why bringing in Clemens and bringing back Andy was so important at the time: gives the young players a good model from which to work with as far as the importance of training is concerned.
buddy,
im so excited that the yankees have found thier 1B of the future. i think his .178 BA from last year will fit in perfectly. maybe he can even come closer to his career best .267! Now i can see why andy phillips is in cincy!
Buddy,
Thanks for the link re Jason Lane. I don’t understand. Why sign this guy who can’t hit, and has little 1B experience, when they can re-sign Minky who hits a little, AND has a great glove, AND wants to come back? It’s not like his body is breaking down. His injuries last year were due to a collision. The only thing I can think of is it must be a money thing.
Randy l.
I don’t disagree with you.
Mussina was throwing well at the end of the season. His fastball had life. my observation is that when he’s throwing well, he throws a high, inside fastball to lefties. Much of last year he wasn’t throwing that, at the end he was.
at the end of the season, he was getting more than 4 days between starts – if i remember correctly – and that’s when he threw w/some mustard. obviously it’s dangerous to extrapolate from a few starts, but i think it’s reasonable to think Mussina can give you effective pitching at his age if you spot-start him.
i know that in the past it’s been said that he likes to pitch on regular rest; but maybe the last 4-6 weeks of 2007 show that he’s changing in this respect as he ages.
Might as well just wait for spring training till we see and say anything about moose.
There was a time when Mussina could have been called an innings eater but not in recent years. His slow assortment gets caught up with early and often.
Just one strong reason why a long relief man is necessary and something the Yankees haven’t really had since the time of Ramiro Mendoza.
If Karstens or Rasner can step up and claim that role, it can go a long way to being the equalizer spread out over the season with the biggest benefactor being an overworked bullpen.
The 3 most watched items in spring training for Girardi & staff is the 4-5 starters, the middle relief, and sorting out the 1st base questions.
35 days and counting ….
About that 1st base position did you read how bad that guy was last year. The Yanks might sign him BUT to a minor league deal.
there is no fault in bringing in a guy to compete in Spring Training. they arent signing him as their 1B option; just taking a look at what he has to offer.
he was once a fairly prized prospect in the Houston system, and he might be a decent bench option, should the Yankees need one. From what i remember in a Chad Jennings/SWB post, they dont really have a veteran OF option at AAA, so having a guy like Lane around, who has at least some MLB experience, isnt a bad thing.
and he costs nothing, so if you dont think he has anything to offer, you cut him. really not that big of a deal.
great post john, and ignore those few jackasses out there
“The Yanks might sign him BUT to a minor league deal.”
Obviously this guy is coming in on a minor league deal. They have no 40-man slots, and certainly wouldn’t waste one on this bum.
Also, the article says that Phillips solidified the position for several months last year. Ha.
I see this as a fill-out-AAA signing.
Bernie, everything I put down, came with the same disclaimor…”provided they stay healthy and affective”. Did you see Mussina’s late season (September) stats (3.49 ERA in 5 starts and that include the bad last start of 6 earned runs? Except for one game, he pitched as he did in 2006, including reaching 90-91 on the gun in a few games. If his legs are healthy, he’ll pitch well.
only the NY Post would turn the yanks considering signing a twice released outfielder for the AAA bench into a new competitor for the 1B job.
Lane did hit 26 homers a few years ago, though. He looks like Shelley Duncan with more MLB experience. Basically, if Shelley tanks and this guy is putting up numbers at AAA, you could give him a shot at the righty half of a 1B/RF platoon.
This 1B guy is not even worth the bench spot only a minor league deal is probably what they’re talking about. No other team would sign him to a major league deal the yankees that love great bats for sure won’t.
I planned on making one of these guest blgo posts on a pitching stat I made but their was some cponfusion and I won’t be making one. I put the post I would have made on my own blog and if anyone wants to check it out I`d appreciate it if you vote in the poll I have on it or make a comment
http://riveravenuewatch.blogsp.....istic.html
gb
so you see, it is only my opinion that he stinks and your opinion that he’s going to be effective. thats fair. i hope you’re right but i dont think so.
“im so excited that the yankees have found thier 1B of the future. i think his .178 BA from last year will fit in perfectly. maybe he can even come closer to his career best .267! ”
that’s exactly what they are doing. he is clearly the 1Bman of the future.
your analysis continues to amaze.
Don’t see the point of the Lane signing
i have to say Pettite admitting to HGH usage has really affected my thinking. When i thought about moose improving at the end last year, my mind immediatly went to ‘i wonder if he might have done something…” i would never have suspected moose before but i never would have suspected pettite either. i dont think he did, but its just the sad state of things nowadays…
Bernie, all I said was that Mussina is the best option right now to pick those extra 170 innings. Bringing in a AA pitcher for those innings is not a good option. Will Mussina pitch like 2006 and September 2007…I don’t know..hopefully, but, if healthy, he won’t pitch like April, May July and August of last year, either.
hmmmm
if you cant recognize dripping sarcasm, especially above the phillips mentioin, then i can’t help you
“if you cant recognize dripping sarcasm, especially above the phillips mentioin, then i can’t help you”
it’s like the boy who cried wolf. all you do is complain, so i assume all your posts are complaints.
Shelley is a much better player than this Lane. If there’s a problem at first base Lane is NOT the answer until he learns HOW to swing.
Fernande Tatis was signed by the Mets yesterday & my point is that he gets $78K guaranteed & $560K if he makes the opening day roster. Not a bad deal for someone who didn’t play year, not to mention had bad he is at this point in his career.
I miss bernie It’s hard to say good things about 3 great young pitchers. I guess you can’t believe they might be as good as they were or better.
*Fernando
hmmmm
a sample of some of my ‘always complaining’ posts from yesterday:
“i will be rooting my head off for the young 3 (and i still say Jeff Karstens is going to be heard from this year) and i think this is the long-term way to go.”
“on the plus side, if everything breaks right (or course it never does) the yankees could decide next year that they dont need to add santana to thier stellar rotation of Wang, Phil, Joba, Kennedy and Karstens, and thier biggest problem is where to put Horne!”
“i am prepared to live with the young guys even though i expect it probably means no playoffs this year.”
” its time to get the train back on track by passing on the superhero and letting the now replenished farm system produce long term success like it did in the mid 90’s.”
I think that Mussina will not only benefit from throwing his fastball more during a healthy Spring Training, but he will also have some extra movitation to perform better, because this next season just might be his last. Moose has had a very good career, and you know that he wants to go out on a high note. If he has a healthy Spring Training and can throw enough fastballs to get his velocity up around 90 mph, then that will make all of the difference in the world.
Unfortunately the yankees are not going to have the offense they had last year; or the defense they had last year, both will decline – hopefully gracefully — the team will fare less well against front line pitching. Defense will not fare as well (Melky or his equivalent and Damon must play every day or the outfield will be bordeline awful. With jeter at SS and no glove and no quickness/range at 1b – the error totals for Jeter and Arod will rise and both sides of the IF cover less ground.
The Bull Pen is a mess. It is unlikley it can eat the number of innings with the same runs allowed efficiency it has been required to eat in the Pavano Years (Clemens retiremanet and Pettit’s abdication).
So Wang, Pettit, IPK, Hughes (or Santana) are going to have to be better than last year , and especialy better against Detroit, and Red Sox. The Wild Card Question is can the Yankees be better than Cleveland, Anaheim, Oakland, and Seattle.
“Shelley is a much better player than this Lane. If there’s a problem at first base Lane is NOT the answer until he learns HOW to swing.”
Lane’s got two seasons in MLB where he’s posted an OPS over 800. One was in very limited duty, one was in full-time duty.
What’s Shelley done to show you he’s better than that? Could he be? Sure. Could he be exactly that? Sure. Could he be worse? Sure.
Why are you upset that they’re considering bringing this guy to ST to spice up the 1B/corner OF platoon situation?
I think we have better options in the minors than this Lane guy. No reason for yankees to sign him. He’s probably signing for next to nothing just to play. He wants to play in the yankees system so he can prove that he’s good. If he shows good numbers in the yankees minor system some other team will sign him next year to a better deal with the possibility of getting into the majors again.
Here we go. It must be getting closer to pitchers and catchers because doom and gloom are starting to show up.
““i am prepared to live with the young guys even though i expect it probably means no playoffs this year.—
this is correct, i do remember this being a very reasonable post from yesterday.
i will apologize for my snarky comment.
you were being sarcastic, but on this blog, people DO have a very annoying tendency to overreact to every minor-league contract handed out, like the Yankees are going to make Jason Lane their starting 1Bman.
again, i apologize.
Lane is good insurance. He plays all three outfield spots very well, has a good arm, can play 1st base. Hee was a .300 hitter with power in the minors, and kit over .275 in the majors. It’s only been the last two years where injuries have gotten him, and Houston really had no place to play him. Last year the had Scott, Pence and Lee in the outfield and Berkman at 1st. In ’06, they had Berkman, Huff, Preston Wilson and Taveras playing those spots. He could be a really good and cheap pickup..and, at least adds veteran depth.
cool deal hmmmm, i like people who have strong opinions even if they differ from mine. and i know my opinions about mussina are very strong.
“There was a time when Mussina could have been called an innings eater but not in recent years. His slow assortment gets caught up with early and often.”
If by recent years you mean 2007 then I guess you’re right.
However here are his numbers for the past four years
2004 – 27 starts – 164 IP – 98ERA+ (League Average Starter)
2005 – 30 starts – 179.7 IP – 96 ERA+
2006 – 32 starts – 197.3 IP – 129 ERA+
2007 – 27 starts – 152 IP – 87 ERA+
Do you think the Yankees wouldn’t be happy if Moose pitches like he pitched in 2004 or 2005? I think they’d be ecstatic.
“It must be getting closer to pitchers and catchers because doom and gloom are starting to show up.”
If doom or gloom aren’t the names of a lefty reliever, we and the Yankees don’t need either of them.
Does anyone know whats going on in the winter league’s. How our guys doing (How’d they do). How about the arbitration contract situation. I’d be very thankful if any one of you answer there questions. Thank You
“So Wang, Pettit, IPK, Hughes (or Santana) are going to have to be better than last year , and especialy better against Detroit, and Red Sox.”
Against Detroit and Boston they were 14-12. 10-8 against Boston and 4-4 against Detroit. Boston hasn’t gotten any better and Detroit’s pitching staff will probably be worse this year.
There These
GB, i agree. I think the Astros kind of mishandled the prospects they had, as a team with bad management in kind of transition… they had guys like Bagwell and Biggio playing out their career, but guys like Lane and Chris Burke who played well enough in the minor leagues to earn their shot. They were shuffled in and out of the lineup, and i think their play suffered a bit.
both are at least worth a spring training look… and I defy someone to tell me what obvious options we have in the minor leagues for OF help. Brett Gardner, as much as i like his skill set, doesnt count yet.
Pat :
Ahhhh yes, lefthanded relievers. Unless Cashman can swing a deal for Damaso Marte with Pittsburgh, the only in-house options are Sean Henn, Chase Wright, or Kei Igawa.
For what it’s worth, still out there is Jeremy Affeldt, Trever Miller, and Mark Hendrickson.
Not that I think the Yanks will be worse against the Tigers this year but ‘their pitching is worse next year’ Didn’t the Tigers get Willis from the Marlins?
Willis? yeah, exactly his point, i think.
I hope you got what I meant (lol)
Jason Lane used to frustrate me so much. I used to watch all the Astros games when Andy was there and you know how Abreu has that fear of running into walls? Jason Lane seemed to have some sort of fear of catching a ball that he could easily dive for. He would let fly balls bounce in front of him that could have been caught if he had just reached out a little bit further.
Jenn, I agree that when I first met Moose, I was actually really surprised at how tall and skinny he was. He always seemed so short next to the other players, haha.
I think Moose is going to have a bounce back year and give maybe around 14 wins or so, and get his ERA back to a respectable number. I know he’s working out more this offseason than he has in previous ones, so that might give him some more mph on his fastball.
TurnTwo, I definitely did mean Willis. Detroit’s pitching just doesn’t scare me.
Lane is also something NYY needs a right handed power bat. Oddly, though, he’s a left handed thrower…something that you don’t see much of, except from pitchers.
TurnTwo-
I read your comment on River Ave Blues about Johan. Who would you give up for 1 year of Nathan. No way he accepts an extension from the Yanks nor would he be offered one at his going rate.
where did ‘i miss noone’ go , i wanted to thank him (her) for the homage.
Raymagnetic -
I’d like to share your optimism for Mussina but he’s 2 years removed from the numbers you post. What could get me a little enthused is finding out that he’s had a rigorous work regimen over the winter and shows more upper body and leg strength to add a few mph to his fastball in hopes of reinventing his career. He might otherwise go from slow to slower.
What is the fasination that people want to see outfielders diving or running into walls? If a guy doesn’t think he can catch the ball, I’d rather he kept a hit to a single rather than playing it into a double or triple. Hitting walls does not impress me. If it saves 4 runs a year, but, puts the guy on the DL for a month, what good does it do? You don’t get credit for style. Crisp and Edmonds are worst at timing a fly so the can dive or slide to catch it. I have no use for show boaters.
i miss bernie -
You have got to be kidding me!! Maybe Mike got healthy? Now you are just throwing things out to tick people off.
I would be interested in an update on what type of routine/regimen all the Yankees go through during the Winter. Like Moose, what has he been doing this off season besides crossword puzzles.
GreenBeret7
I was just going to point out, that becuase they slide or dive for balls doesn’t make them a good outfielder. It can mean that is the only way they can catch a routine out, than many others would be able to just camp under to catch.
GreenBeret 7- I didn’t realize that Jason Lane threw lefty either. There aren’t many notables that batted righty and threw lefty, although “The Greatest of All-Time” batted righty and threw lefty- Rickey Henderson!
*fascination*
“Ahhhh yes, lefthanded relievers. Unless Cashman can swing a deal for Damaso Marte with Pittsburgh, the only in-house options are Sean Henn, Chase Wright, or Kei Igawa.
For what it’s worth, still out there is Jeremy Affeldt, Trever Miller, and Mark Hendrickson.”
the yankees did sign some guys to minor league deals who throw with their left hand. one of those guys might be the answer.
we’re not looking for a miracle, just a guy who can get some lefties out.
Billy Traber – lefties hit .210/.303/.310 against him over his career. the yankees would be thrilled with that.
Heath Phillips is another sleeper, but he doesn’t have a lot of major league experience. solid, if unspectacular, minor league numbers. he’s 26. he’s my dark horse candidate for the job.
Florida Yank,
Mike Mussina is a 39 year old man who from the looks of it has the same physique he’s always had, do you not think he works out rigorously every year? He’s actually only 1 year removed from his 2006 season and I hopefully optimistic that he’ll come in this year looking to extend his career another year or two and pitch closer to 2004-06 than 2007.
I miss bernie I’m still here just don’t got much to say right now if the conversation gets interesting I’ll have what to say but now they’re just talking about nothing (or at least nothing I want to talk about). Thanks
Jennifer, that’s exactly how I see it. Crisp will time a ball and then slide to catch it chest high…Edmonds does the same thing. I equate crap like that to Reggie Jackson showboating at the plate. He’s the one that started this in all sports. Basketball players swinging on the rim, fottball players doing sripted dances…Christ..just act like you’ve done it before. Watch old tapes of Mantle crushing a pitch…sprinting arould the bases, head down, until he hits third and starts slowing down, but, never looked at the pitcher. The knock on Abreu always amazes me. Everyone always talks about wanting the perfect defensive right fielder in Guerrero. Look up the numbers, though…The numbers are even across the board, except in one area…errors. Guerrero has twice as many errors as abreu, in the same amount of chances.
jennifer, i assume you were upset that i said that the pettite thing made me wonder about moose. i was commenting about the sad fact that someone i looked up to (as well as many others) admitting that he used hgh makes me suspect everyone, which is sad and unfair but hard to get aroung.
so before i get misquoted and someone starts a rumor I DONT THINK MOOSE TOOK ANY PED’S AT ANY TIME!
But this does point out why i am so angry and condemning of those who did, because it casts a shadow over good atheletes who have worked very hard to get where they are like Mike Mussina, who from everything i’ve read is a good person who works hard.
there was a piece in the daily news by dan naulty who wrote freely about his steroid use and how bad he felt about what it did to the ‘natural’ atheletes who had to stay in the minors because he was juicing. recommended reading:http://www.nydailynews.com/spo.....eri-2.html
It’s not a fascination that I want to see players diving for balls, but if they can take away a base hit simply by reaching out further when they obviously can, I’d rather see that than a big inning develop off of a fly ball.
“I’d like to share your optimism for Mussina but he’s 2 years removed from the numbers you post. ”
but he is also only 1 year removed from his stellar 2006. so you have to factor that into a projection too, you can’t pretend that season didn’t happen.
also, if you remove his terrible 3 start run in august (which you also can’t pretend didn’t happen, but bare with me), he basically was the same pitcher he was in 2004/2005. so maybe there was just something physically wrong with him? he pitched ok after that and in the playoffs.
i think Moose CAN be that league average starter this year. he has reportedly re-dedicated himself to conditioning this off-season, and is specifically working out to add a few ticks back to his fastball.
if he can get it into the 89-90 MPH range, i think he will be a pleasant surprise. not a top of the rotation guy, but a solid 4/5.
J-Dawg, you’re right. I forgot about Henderson.
GB7,
Nobody here’s fascinated with those kinds of guys and you certainly don’t want one of your outfielders out for months with a broken face. BUT, we’ve seen enough of Bobby to know that if he’d get a little closer to the wall he might actually get more outs. You know actually stick your glove in the stands kind of deal? It’s really his only flaw.
Well, that and how he bends over like an old lady to get those balls that richocet like a pachinko ball. lol.
Also, that Mussina got taken out of that rotation last year was an absolute joke. Just before he had that stretch of 4 bad games or so, he had a streak going that he was pitching amazingly. So I refuse to think that he suddenly lost all of his pitching skills. He’ll be fine next season.
gb i agree with you about people who dive and crash, when i lived in L.A. i would pay to see the Angels just to watch Darrin Erstadt play, he was so worth the price of admission, but the price he has paid for his wreckless abandon has turned him into a fringe player.
but at the same time, abreu seems to be afraid to catch a ball with his back against the wall, just the sight of it seems to intimidate him. i suppose that after all these years he cant help it and its not gonna get any better, just like arod going back on pop-ups. (fortunatly he has the pop-up vacuum or all time standing to his left!)
for those who don’t seem to understand the importance of a conditioning staff on players like chamberlain,hughes, and kennedy, below is my idea of the kind of expert who should be on the yankee staff. too bad he’s on the red sox conditioning staff.
mike reinold is the red sox assistant athletic trainer. do the yankees have anyone like this with these credentials? notice “assistant” as the operative word.
“A Winthrop native and 2000 graduate of Northeastern University with a degree in physical therapy, Reinold earned a doctorate in physical therapy from the Massachusetts General Hospital Institute of Health Professions in 2003. Reinold has spent the last two years as the director of rehab and clinical education at ASMI in Birmingham, where he developed rehab programs for professional baseball pitchers seeking the care of Dr. Andrews.
At ASMI, Reinold utilized his expertise in the biomechanics of a pitcher’s motion to assess flaws in the pitcher’s delivery and address ways to prevent future injury. Reinold worked with the player and the corresponding members of Major League training staffs to develop appropriate rehab programs both during the regular season and offseason. Since 2001, Reinold had been a rehab consultant for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.
In addition to his doctorate in physical training, Reinold is a certified athletic trainer and a certified strength and conditioning coach. He and his wife, Sandi, currently reside in Birmingham.”
i want to point out that i don’t think dana cavalea is the problem because a conditioning staff is a lot more than just the strength and conditioning coach. i’m just saying he shouldn’t be in charge of the whole program, and it looks like he is unless i’m missing something. i look at this as a managerial flaw in cashman that he ,for some reason, hasn’t created a performance and conditioning staff like the red sox and indians .
what they did with hughes last year was borderline criminal as abuse goes. i’m not saying the yankees don’t have some people individually who know what they are doing. i’m saying that i think the right hand doesn’t seem to know what the left hand is doing. this is cashman’s fault in setting up the conditioning and performance team. it doesn’t appear to have a leader who’s in charge of a comprehensive plan.
are any one of you who think conditioning and performance coaching isn’t that important( because the wealthy yankee players have so many personal coaches) confident that the present staff won’t make the same mistakes with joba, hughes, and kennedy that they made with hughes last year? i’m not.
if they do make the same mistakes, the numbers john posted, based based on joba, hughes ,and kennedy contributing, have little chance of happening.
Bernie, are you aware that Pettitte received those shots at the training complex in Tampa that year. That means somebody on the staff in Tampa almost surely knew about it. It was part of an injury treatment.
Buddy, i’m open for negotiation. There would be competition for him, no doubt. But the Twins know he’s not going to get the same type of return than Johan did because of the very reason you just mentioned.
I’m not giving up Hughes or IPK, AJax or Tabata. But can you package a couple of arms together from a group of Horne, Marquez, Sanchez, Patterson, McCutcheon, Robertson, and the like to make them an interesting offer? absolutely.
Andy used ped’s twice!! So lets not cruisify him. And he was only doing it to return from an injury! He wasn’t like Jason taking roids so he can hit the ball harder and further.
sorry jennifer, gb, you’re not gonna change my opinion, cheating is cheating. (and i dont understand why it mattered where he was shot and who knew)
also, i am not prepared to accept that andy only took 2 shots. he got ratted out for 2 shots and then admitted to 2 shots. (then he non-apologized)
Now this sounds like tampering from Hank.
That “I’d trade [Mussina] in a heartbeat” comment is one of the stupider asides.
Good luck with those efforts. Mooooooose is a 10-and-5 guy with full no-trade rights and a multimillion dollar buyout on top of his too-high contract (and I’ll never understand how the union obtained buyout requirements for a personal services contract that ends on the last day of the World Series of a given season — this applies to all free agent contracts and it’s a great boondoggle for the players: “my service is over, you don’t want me, pay me big money”).
Seriously, Pete, do you do any editing of these guest posts?
Jennifer, did you see the two links from the team pshycologist for the Yanks and Houston and the team chiropractor from Toronto on their comments about Clemens and Pettitte. They both confirm what the two pitchers said.
GreenBeret7
And It wasn’t illegal in baseball, who knows maybe Andy got it legally.
what would have happened if the creampuff Selig had dealt with the ‘roids problem head on by himself rather than turn to a government figure that wasted 20 million bucks of Major League Baseball’s money.
People like George P. Mitchell have spent a lifetime wasting taxpayer dollars rather than do something worthwhile like dealing with border crossing issues and a host of other important things.
GreenBeret7
Yeah I read that last night. The ciro is right, he would have see backnee on Roger had he been using roids as much as it is aleged (sp)
Sorry, Ray, but, that’s not tampering. That’s common knowledge. Everyone trying to deal for him says the same thing. He’s got to be signed if you’re paying that much money and giving up that much talent.
but Monk, dont you realize that all you have to do is politely explain to Moose that he wont be in the starting rotation, and he’ll instantly agree to be traded to Philadelphia!
Jennifer, not sure where Pettitte got it, but, it’s amazing that McNamee was flying all over the country toting these drugs around and never got caught at the airline checkins.
everybody defending yankees who cheated reminds me of how everybody hates congress but always re-elects thier own congressman (woman). you cant be against ped’s and excuse pettite cause he’s a nice guy or cause he’s a yankee or because he did it less than someone else. the problem is never going to go away until the owners, players union AND ESPECIALLY THE FANS stand up and condemn it and the people who do it.
No way would Mussina accept a trade to Philadelphia. That park would be a disaster for him. Maybe to the Mets, but, NYY needs his innings, so, they’d have to be blown away in a trade.
GreenBeret,
I’m not saying it’s outright tampering, but Hank is basically telling Johan if he becomes a free agent the Yankees will write a blank check.
Could you imagine how furious Hank would have been if last year Arte Moreno came out and said If AROD becomes a free agent we would probably have to sign him?
Yep, but he is a criminal so he knows how to work the system.
As much as I think Hank Steinbrenner has a big mouth, he’s not saying anything everyone else isn’t saying. If there wasn’t trade talks going on, then, it might be questionable. He’s not saying something about a player that the other team isn’t trying to trade.
GB, sorry if you didnt pick up my sarcasm. it just seems like anyone who brings up Moose’s name says he would have no problem waiving his no-trade to Philly, because he would pitch in an inferior league and close to where he grew up in PA.
I should say get around the system, not work the system.
i miss bernie
So you’ve never done something illegal? Drank under age? Smoked pot, smoked under age? Drove over the speed limit etc? I guess everyone on here should be condemmed. People do make mistakes. Those who live in glass houses, shall not cast stones.
That was a good post. And would make sense with last years team. However, our bullpen this season looks like it will be one of the worst bullpens we’ve had in recent memory, so even if the starters improve to league average or better, the bullpen will probably regress from last season and negate the afore mentioned improvement.
My errot, Turn-Two…I just read the words and that gets brought up twice a week. Not only that, but Philadelphia really doesn’t have a lot of extra talent to spare that NYY could use.
GB – The difference I see is this statement is Hank saying if Santana makes it to free agency then the Yankees will go all out to sign him. Normally Hank is talking about trying to sign Johan to a long term contract if the Yankees trade for him. I think that’s a major difference.
jennifer
yes i make mistakes and accept people’s condemnation for my acts, and try to improve myself. what i am seeing here is a total lack of condemnation based on lame excuses. first comes the condemnation, then the improvment. i am prepared to forgive andy pettite as i have forgiven (in my mind) jason giambi.
right now I’m still condemning andy, and plan to show my condemnation if i happen to be at a game in which he pitches.
So you are going to boo one of your own players. great!
The bullpen may be young and inexperienced, but, they have a lot of hard thowing youngsters with control that has a chance to be very good. I figure that Farnsworth will be moved somewhere to bring in a lefty like Marte, Affeldt, or Trevor Miller.or
Post Summary: What have we learned?
Brought to you by: Schwabb Cortizone, the drug of choice.
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We the 3 kids on limited innings, we need a SP to eat innings.
We have Moose.
Moose? Moose s*cks!
No he doens’t. Moose is OK as a #5.
No, he’s Toast.
No, he’s OK if his hammy is OK.
No, he’s done.
No, we need him.
No, we can use Karstens instead?
Who?
Who’s on first. I said Karstens
Karstens? Are you off your Meds?
Karstens. He could get better. Moose is fried.
Karstens might be our long man.
Well, he can start instead.
No, he can’t.
Yes he can.
No he can’t.
Yes he can.
Sure… maybe you think Bernie should pitch instead of Moose.
Bernie Who?
No, Who’s on first.
Moose is done. Cooked. Broiled. Fried. Toast. Should never have beenb sighed for those 2 years.
No, he was a fine deal for 2 years.
No, he wasn’t.
Yes, he was.
No, he wasn’t.
Yes, he was. Are you off your Meds?
But Moose is tall.
Wang is taller.
Dana Cavalea is now the official yankee strength and conditioning coach.
Jennifer is a midget.
Interpretation:
The Yankees are somewhat weak on both SP and BP.
There is little help available, and what is out there is terribly overpriced and getting too-long contracts.
The Yankees are in a rebuilding mode, with big dollars comming off the books after 2008. Many changes may happen after another year of assessing our kids.
Cashman is not going to waste $10m on a guy who might be 10% then what we have on the farm.
Moose has an important role. He will get a shot. We will hope he can be effective.
We have tons of kids. Karstens, Rasner and many more will get a shot.
We will hope that 1 or 2 are effective.
We will hope that the 3 stud-kids are between effective and very good.
We will go what we have and see what happens.
If it turns to sh*t, Cashman will do something mid-season.
This is still a playoff calipher team, albeit with less than desirerable pitching.
Anything can happen, Cashman will not panic.
Ray, that’s not what he said. He was talking about the amount of money and years being thrown around by his agents and the talent cost. All he said was the the combined cost was too high, and the Yanks would rather wait. He also said if it was a matter of just Santana being a free agent, it would be different.
Right Bern, and then you’ll see him outside the stadium and ask for his autograph, right?
“so you’re going to boo one of you own players,” .. absolutly and those who dont are showing that they dont care about cheating.
did anyone say to andy “so you’re going to cheat on all those great yankee fans who come out and cheer for you?”
Old Yanks Fan, that was cruel what you said about Jennifer being a midget. Had you said that Jennifer was vertically challenged, that would have been a softer way of saying it and also politically correct.
Explain to me exactly how taking two worthless shots of HGH while on the DL is cheating anybody?
Old Yanks Fan: Nicely done
I had a smile going until I hit near the end, when you actually put in ‘Jennifer is a midget’
Sorry Jennifer, but I had to laugh at the fact that info got included in the summary
Bernie, all I have to say is that it must be a great feeling to see yourself as God and so much better than everyone else.
say it aint so,
in my life i have met whitey ford, willie mays, tom seaver, jerry koosman, david justice and others, i have never asked for an autograph and never will. i have told whitey and willie “thanks.” and whitey shook my hand. i think that’s sufficient.
if i see andy this season and he looks at me, ill shake my head and say “no good bro” and leave it at that.
im not a player worshipper. especially not any more.
Completely off topic from what we’re even talking about here Bern, but do you think someday you’ll regret not asking for autographs?
gb
so now anybody below god cant condemn cheating in baseball?!!!
then i fear for the game, if thats the current opinion of baseball fans, it wont be long till it mophs into WWF .
say it aint so:
whitey looked so pleased (maybe because i didnt ask for an autograph, maybe because he appreciated the sentiment) but thats all i needed.
“Seriously, Pete, do you do any editing of these guest posts?”
why would he?
“However, our bullpen this season looks like it will be one of the worst bullpens we’ve had in recent memory, so even if the starters improve to league average or better, the bullpen will probably regress from last season and negate the afore mentioned improvement.”
based on what? b/c you say so?
Old Yanks Fan
That was funny except the part calling me a midget.
Hey I’m 5 4′ in heals.
That was funny except the part calling me a midget. Hey I’m 5 4′ in heals.
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Hey Midge – I’m old and fat. Wanna do dinner sometime?
P.S. I’m also prone to gas.
Old Yanks Fan
I don’t know why you’d advertise that you were old and fat, that is not the way to get a date.
Great post! I hate it when people get mad if someone mentions that Kennedy and Hughes won’t be #1′s. If Kennedy is a good 3-5 and Hughes is a good 2-3 in the AL, those are a lot of quality innings. With our hitting, we don’t need 5 aces to win 100 games. In the playoffs it’s a different story, but if IK,Phil and Joba all become above average pitchers, we’ve got 4/5 (inc Wang) of our staff for the next 5-10 years.
Good post John. I still have no faith in this bullpen. Farnsworth will stink again and the Hawkins signing was a mistake. Hopefully some of the young guys step up in the pen.
IMB — the disdain you show for Pettitte and Clemens is overblown. Whitey Ford did just about everything possible to make a baseball move unnaturally except use Vaseline or drain the slime from slugs and smear the ball with it; when Gaylord Perry pitched for the Yanks, you could see crud flying off the ball when the pitch came out of his hand (and I saw that on a 1970 model Zenith B&W TV!) and guess what — BOTH are in the Hall of Fame and no one’s calling for a recount.
Andy Pettitte gets two shots of crap in his elbow in the attempt to get back in the rotation and he’s banned from your good graces? That’s too harsh.
As for Clemens, he was a Hall of Fame pitcher before the alleged use of steroids and after (see 2004, 2005). The evidence against him consists of the statements of one man, who has a history of illegal actions and questionable ethics, who is facing serious time in the brig (Federal time does not get reduced much, unlike state prison time). If that proves guilt to you, I’d hate to be a defendant in front of your jury.
I did my own calculations. I replaced Julian Tavarez’ starts with the Red Sox last year. I replaced only his starts, and didn’t account for the extra innings he made the bullpen pitch, or any of the time he spent as a reliever in 2007. I also accounted for unearned runs, something John overlooked.
If you replace Tavarez’s 5.22 ERA as a starter, with the league average starter’s ERA of 4.47, it gives the Red Sox a Pythagorean Record of 103 wins in 2007.
I imagine the above poster was right. It looks like the Red Sox would win something like 110 games according to their Pythag Record if you replace the innings of Tavarez, Wakefield and Gagne with league average pitching from Lester, Buchholz and Delcarmen.
Is that good enough for you, Giuseppe Franco?