Pinch hitting: Looking For The Future
Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 17, 2008 
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January is usually a slow month for baseball news. So we’ve lined up a series of guest bloggers to entertain you. Next up is Pablo from Looking For The Future.
Pablo, from Queens, has been blogging since July. Inspired by the rise of Joba Chamberlain and Austin Jackson, he blogs mostly on prospects. Here is his post:
It’s November 4, 2001 – Game 7 of the World Series. The bases are loaded, one out, and Arizona Diamondbacks slugger Luis Gonzales is at the plate. The infield was in. Gonzalez hit a pop-up to short left, but neither Derek Jeter nor Chuck Knoblauch could get there. Jay Bell scored, and the D-backs won a heartbreaker (and the series), 4-3.
Since then, more than ever, the Yankees made it a point to sign big-name free agents, trade away top prospects for veterans who were declining or simply did not produce, and emphasize offense over pitching and defense. The 2002 Yankees were actually a balanced team, winning 103 games in the regular season, but falling to the eventual champion Angels in 4. The 2003 Yankees got to the World Series but couldn’t score against the young and effective Florida Marlins pitchers. The 2004 Yankees had a sub-par 89-73 pythag record in a low point for Yankee pitching in recent years, and then lost an ALCS in which they were leading 3-0. The 2005 Yankees started out 11-19, and lost to the Angels in the playoffs.
It was at this point, after the team had acquired busts like Carl Pavano, Jeff Weaver, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Drew Henson, and Robin Ventura that Brian Cashman changed team philosophy. He wanted to get the pieces to build the team from within with prospects from trades, drafting, and international signings. It took a while for Cashman to have the power to change the team’s ways. The team’s payroll was $200M and escalating. There were no long-term solutions in the minors to replace aging players like Johnson, Tom Gordon, Gary Sheffield, and Jason Giambi. So Cashman “hit the books” and started using the huge Yankee income to build from within.
Thus, in came Phil Hughes from the 2004 draft. Austin Jackson, Alan Horne, J.B. Cox, and Brett Gardner in the 2005 draft. Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy, Dellin Betances, and Mark Melancon in the 2006 draft; and Andrew Brackman, Carmen Angelini, and Bradley Suttle in the 2007 draft. Cashman used the largely unrestricted international free agent market to attract Yankee prospects.
Players such as Jose Tabata, Jesus Montero, Juan Miranda and Jairo Heredia were signed from Latin America. Lastly, trades of aging veterans Sheffield and Johnson reaped (most prominently) Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, and Ross Ohlendorf.
These aren’t just a bunch of names. While all prospects don’t pan out as planned – not many do, really – there is so much depth and talent in this system that the cornerstone of the franchise is set for at least some ten years. These young players will bring a new energy and aura to the clubhouse that the early-2000s teams could just never have.
Results similar to those of the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies will be seen. As the contracts of aging Yankees start to expire, these young, energetic players come up and play their best to bring this franchise back to its former glory.
Thanks to Pablo for posting. Good luck with your blog.
It takes a mixture of both signing talents and holding on to talents that makes for a LONG TERM winner.
When the Rockies and Diamondbacks repeat WS wins, then we can start crowing about how effective they are.
Signing OLD has been pitchers doesn’t help things.
Serious? What is wrong with all the haters on here? Wow…
Trolls from Boston need to find something better to do with themselves
Nice one Pablo, if the prospects system continue’s to work this way the yankees will become the #1 prospect team which eventualy makes them a much better team in the majors. When your backups are that good that means your frontmen have to be better.
Well I believe Cashman IS doing the right thing. Accumulate as much talent in your minors as possible, then you make trades and be MUCH MORE selective when you sign free agents.
I wish had the same sense of arrogance that the people who assume the greatness of our prospects do. Unfortunately, I dont believe that Alan Horne, Jeff Marquez and Ian Kennedy are all going to be so great that we can afford to miss out on Johan Santana to keep them.
Our farm system right now is the best it’s been in ages.
That, at least, is why I’m so excited.
And with that I bid you all a very fond good night.
Johan was once a prospect also.
I don’t want to hear about the 2001 WS Game 7.
Spoken like a true Red Sox troll, Robert.
Believing in a farm system’s depth is not arrogance. No one is saying Jeff Marquez will be a frontline starter or Ian Kennedy a Cy Young winner. But, denying their potential is equally as arrogant on your part.
Good point, BigYank1
Aura ? Seriously ? What about Mystique – is she dead now ?
Nice post.
You could see what the infusion of youth (talented youth) had on the Yankees mid-season. The Yankees ship was sinking and Cashman was able to bring in the calvary.
They all have distinct personalities and bring different qualities to the team. Joba’s personality was infectious, Hughes was a bit of a bulldog, Ian’s a gamer (he really took to his role-as Dorothy), and Shelley brought painful forearms for everyone in the dugout.
Hopefully this is the right mix of vets and kids. I know they understand the significance of being the last team to play in the House that Ruth Built.
“Well I believe Cashman IS doing the right thing. Accumulate as much talent in your minors as possible, then you make trades and be MUCH MORE selective when you sign free agents”
BigYank, I think you’re dead on here if I’m catching your drift.
You want Santana.
Prospects are only as good as what they are, simply: prospects. Meaning, they’re unproven and presumptuous raw talent.
Cashmans philosphy is accurate with building the farm, but he shouldn’t be afraid to pull the trigger. MANY MORE prospects turn out to be busts then their respected projections. History has shown more great trades in which teams have traded “future stars” for big free agents then vice versa and those prospects are now putting mustard on your hot dog at 7-11.
Build the farm, but be wise with potential.
P.S – This is the 3rd or 4th guest spot talking about Cashman and his reign in the last week. Just sayin.
Great post Pablo. I can’t really respond to your Blog cause I’m always on my cell but keep up the great work. If you can please answer these questions I’d be very gratefull. Since you know alot about the prospects my question goes like this. If the yankees had to switch each and every player Today with some player in the yankees system (that includes switching Joba Kennedy etc.) which players would they be. 5 starting pitchers, 2 catchers, 3 basemen, a shortstop, an infielder, 4 outfielders (one as a backup), a DH, 3 relievers, and a closer (a little under 25 players). Who would they be. If you answer this I’d be very gratefull. Thank You.
the 30 days of cashman continues…
Stockpiling all this young talent kinds makes the Santana trade even more sense. With this many prospect, giving up 2 or even 3 won’t break the bank.
Good job Pablo. Not doing the Santana deal has alot to do with the extension as much as it does with moving talent.
If Santana wasn’t going to be a FA at the end of the year, say like Haren, moving the talent would be a lot easier, IMO. It is the combo of $$ and talent that is not getting this deal done and for that Cash and Hal should be thanked.
Well written piece Pablo.
No new ground broken here,but there seems to be a consensus among the bloggers that the team needs to stay on the path they are on.
Are you listening Hank???
How is Robert a troll for stating an opinion about mid-level prospects in the Yankees farm system? Its just the truth; not every single player the Yankees field this season in Scranton, Trenton, Charleston, Tampa, and beyond, will have some profound effect for the team in NY… most of these players will never become anything, and some of these players should be used to acquire talent that can definately help the big league club.
its fun to root for the kids, but lets at least be somewhat honest here.
Pablo:
Nice work, but let me just say a few words for Robin Ventura.
Ventura doesn’t really belong in a group with Drew Henson, Jeff Weaver and Carl Pavano. If I am not completely mistaken, Robin was in pinstripes only a season and a half and was a mixed bag, not a flop. In 2002 he hit 27 HRs and had 93 RBI and was an All Star. His first half 2003 season was definitely a poor one, but he was traded before the situation reached Pavano-esque proportions. In exchange for Ventura the Dodgers coughed up Bubba Crosby and Scott Proctor in late July 2003.
Overall, not such a bad year and a half in pinstripes.
I think one dynamic which hasn’t been talked about a lot is how the so called “small market” teams, who usually draft very high, won’t draft the very best available kids, using the excuse that they are afraid of the asking price. This works out well for the Yankees (Andrew Brackman), but shouldn’t these teams be using their shares of the Luxury Tax for just this kind of thing??
I know Brackman needed Tommy John surgery, so maybe he’s not a good example, but my main point is about how these other owners are playing the system. Am I wrong? Shouldn’t this be mandated somehow?
re: robert’s post. if your point is that th yanks can get santana for kennedy, horne and marquez, i think most people would make that trade. unfortunatly, most reports seem to indicate that the twins want hughes, kennedy, marquez and another player. that is a different equation.
bronx liason, what up with the troll thing? wouldnt you make the trade he suggests?
There needs to be a balance of veteran talents and young talents. I think Santana would be great in the Yankee rotation, but I don’t think he is worth giving up Hughes for. Kennedy is even a tough call to make, but I would give up a package around Kennedy for Santana.
If the Mets package interests the Twins, then it is more about moving him out of the league than getting quality in return.
My one concern over Cashman is he might be overly cautious when dealing for pitching. He has not made a lot of great moves with pitching, so I think he is gun shy over the Santana deal.
Off topic but did anyone else read/hear that Leytriz was twice the legal limit!!
MiLB posted it’s top 50 prospects: I perused through them all and compiled the list below. It’s a crazy long list and if I posted the complete list with all the descriptions, Pete would kick my @$$. So I posted it elsewhere and if you’re really bored or interested you can find it here:
http://sunnyart.wordpress.com/.....e-listing/
Otherwise, you can view the original Jonathon Mayo article here:
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....p50/y2008/
(if you haven’t already).
Speaking of the 2001 World Series…. I’m reading a book called “Haunted Baseball” by Mickey Bradley and Dan Gordan (I highly recommend it). Anyways, here is an excerpt from a chapter about that series… Talk about divine intervention, if you believe in that stuff.
“The city of New York had already scheduled a victory parade for the Yankees, were they to win the series. Enrique Wilson, the Yankees utility infielder, had, like his teammates, planned his postseries travel around that date. He was to fly back home to the Dominican Republic some time after the parade, on American Airlines Flight 587, leaving La Guardia Airport at 8:40 am on Monday, November 12.
When the Yanks came up short in the series, the parade , of course was called off. Wilson changed his travel plans to head home earlier. As a result, he was not on Flight 587 when it crashed into Belle Harbor, New York, three minutes after takeoff, killing all 265 people on board….
…Wilson adds that Alfonso Soriano had also planned to be on that flight, thought unlike Wilson, he hadn’t bought a ticket.
The notion that losing the Series saved Wilson’s life was eerie enough. But for Mariano Rivera, it added perspective that helped rebut criticism from some teammates for comments he made to them on the night he blew the save.”
Creepy… So to have a positive spin on the ’01 Series. It saved Soriano and Wilson’s life. For a negative spin, it’s all Enrique Wilson’s fault.
A general manager’s worst fear is giving up talent to get a missing piece only to see that piece not the fit as thought it was and the deposed talent mushroom in another organization. A lose-lose situation.
Virtually any deal is a crapshoot.
Robert
January 17th, 2008 at 12:54 am
I wish had the same sense of arrogance that the people who assume the greatness of our prospects do. Unfortunately, I dont believe that Alan Horne, Jeff Marquez and Ian Kennedy are all going to be so great that we can afford to miss out on Johan Santana to keep them.
————
Unfortunately it’s not Horne, Marquez or Kennedy the Twins want… it’s Hughes and Kennedy. Horne, Marquez, or Kennedy have nothing to do with holding up any Santana trade.
MiLB posted it’s top 50 prospects: I perused through them all and compiled the list below. It’s a crazy long list and if I posted the complete list with all the descriptions, Pete would kick my @$$. So I posted it elsewhere and if you’re really bored or interested you can find it here:
http://sunnyart.wordpress.com/.....e-listing/
Otherwise, you can view the original Jonathon Mayo article here:
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.....p50/y2008/
(if you haven’t already).
I had heard that Enrique was supposed to be on the flight, I never knew Soriano was planning to be as well.
Old Goat – It takes a mixture of both signing talents and holding on to talents that makes for a LONG TERM winner.
When the Rockies and Diamondbacks repeat WS wins, then we can start crowing about how effective they are.
Signing OLD has been pitchers doesn’t help things.
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Does this mean you disagree with our Guest Bloggers and Cashman’s philosophy? If so, state your own ideas/philosophy/alternative.
Free speech is a wonderful thing. However, it means, especially here on the internet, that every troll, hater and moron has an audience for their dribble.
HEY PETE! I HAVE AN IDEA!
How about if we have a Lohud manlaw?
You can criticise, p*ss and moan as much as you like as long as you also post a viable rebuttal.
If someone puts themselves ‘out there’ and posts their view… if I disagree, shouldn’t I be obligated to post a rebuttal?
If I put myself ‘out there’ and post my view… if YOU disagree, shouldn’t you be obligated to post a rebuttal?
(by the way, ‘You are a moron’ is NOT a rebuttal)
If not, don’t blogs simply become vomitoriums?
I love to debate.
I love to learn from other people’s opinions and viewpoints.
I would love feedback from the regulars here.
Does it make this site better when half of the comments are non-productive?
Oops – Sorry about all the BOLD. That was a typo/mistake.
“You can criticise, p*ss and moan as much as you like as long as you also post a viable rebuttal.”
Manlaw?
Manlaw!
Also, it should apply to women on the blog. Person-law.
My one concern over Cashman is he might be overly cautious when dealing for pitching. He has not made a lot of great moves with pitching, so I think he is gun shy over the Santana deal.
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Considering the FA pitchers over the last 3 years, and what Teams have wanted in trade for their pitchers, what ‘great move’ would you have made that Cashman missed?
Steve Goldman has an excellent post about the Santana trade. Basically, he says that their is no clear choice, and that the ‘better choice’ will simply not be known until we see how both Hughes and Santana do over the next few years.
His opinion is when you have a ‘coin toss’ choice, and have to make some decision, that maybe you simply go with your current philosophy… and hope for the best.
I personally don’t want the trade, but I can certainly understand the reasons why some do. I don’t know if keeping Phil et al is the ‘best move’. It’s the old Rock/Hard place situation. So my feeling, likes Goldman’s, is when in doubt, stick to your current path, which for us now is internal development.
Also, it should apply to women on the blog. Person-law.
——————————————————-
Well…. I didn’t know how that would apply to posts about closet space, favorite TV show and pet peeves, so I deferred.
“As the contracts of aging Yankees start to expire, these young, energetic players come up and play their best to bring this franchise back to its former glory.”
something seems off somewhere in this statement. i guess it’s because the red sox won the world series with one of the oldest rosters in baseball. a team of really young players don’t seem to win anything at the major league level.
on the other hand, a team has to have some good young players to keep salaries down. what’s the optimum balance on a team of young and old players to get the best team. the marlins clearly are too young too be good. teams like colorado and arizona are relatively young, but how do they keep the players as these young players get older and more expensive? if teams are constantly replacing players as they get older and more expensive,that’s a problem.
i’m just thinking out loud here,but there seems to be a lot of unrealistic thinking about all the young players the yankees are developing and how they are doing it. for one thing, wouldn’t it be better for the yankees if they were bringing up a pitcher like hughes when he was closer to his peak years( say age 25-31) than bringing him at age 20 ? his cheap 6 years will tick off before his peak performance years. the yankees could get more bang for their buck if the peak years were the cheap years of 1-6.
papelbon came up later than hughes or joba. youkillis was older. i’m just questioning the wisdom of bringing up players when they clearly aren’t close to their peak years. can you imagine how much money hughes and joba will getting at age 26-27 when they are free agents?
as time goes on, and a second and third wave of young players comes along, it seems like it would make sense to slow down the really young players(age 20-23) so they don’t reach free agency at the time they are beginning their peak years.
it might not be good for the players personally, but it might be good for the yankees.
“wouldn’t it be better for the yankees if they were bringing up a pitcher like hughes when he was closer to his peak years”
So…they should do what? Stick these guys back in the minors and sign Livan Hernandez? These guys are good, and they’re pretty much ready. The Yankees have money. They can start getting wins out of these guys now and pony up the dough to keep them later.
Off topic, and I apologize, but I just came across this article about an all-star juicers team. Pretty amusing if you can have a sense of humor about it, I guess. The picture of Mark McGwire is friggin money.
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/200.....iced-team/
for one thing, wouldn’t it be better for the yankees if they were bringing up a pitcher like hughes when he was closer to his peak years( say age 25-31) than bringing him at age 20 ? his cheap 6 years will tick off before his peak performance years. the yankees could get more bang for their buck if the peak years were the cheap years of 1-6.
———————————————————————
Huhhh?? This doesn’t make any sense.
old yankee windbag
“Free speech is a wonderful thing.”
you should have stopped there.
and the word you were looking for is:
drivel-to talk stupidly and carelessly
not dribble
now that i have met your assinine standards:
you are a moron
OYF, Sorry I didn’t know I had to write a thesis for you when making a comment.
Plain and simple, there needs to be a balance of signing FA players and using talents from within. Striking that balance is what Cashman failed to do through these past years. I personally don’t want to see the Yankees having the “success” that the Diamondbacks and Fish have had. I expect them to have better than a flash in the pan WS win, then go back to mediocrity.
A Santana trade is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don’t types. Giving up Hughes would be tough, and with all the years of hearing about Hughes makes it tougher.
The headline post seems to lean toward making the Yankees into versions of the Marlins or D’Backs. Does that sound all that appealing to you? It doesn’t to me. Holding onto promising prospects is nice, but when a player of Santana’s ability becomes available, it makes it hard to evaluate. Hughes has tremendous potential, Santana has proven talent. I would say in this instance I want to have my cake and eat it too.
If the Yankees were to be like the Marlins or D’Backs, then they wouldn’t even be in the talks for Santana. They would not have A-Rod, Abreu, Matsui, Jeter, but they would be keeping the farm kids and promoting them and hoping to have everything gel.
I don’t want to see the Yankees be a team that might contend for the WS once every 4-6 years. I want to see them keep going with their post season appearances. Maybe with a different Manager now, their post season play will be different enough for the bats to stay working.
“Those ESL classes didn’t work for Pablo.”
completely uncalled for.
“Plain and simple, there needs to be a balance of signing FA players and using talents from within. Striking that balance is what Cashman failed to do through these past years. ”
how could do that when he didn’t have the “talents from within” to work with until now? he’s done well with what he’s had.
the real test for Cashman is 2008-2010. he’s laid the groundwork.
the problem is that most people can’t wait.
Good article but I disagree. The Yankee’s aquisition of mature players did not start or even gain momentum with the loss to Arizona. The Yanks were shedding young talent for proven players that were on the downside for years. I remember Johnny Mize and Enos Slaughter but there have been many over the years. Free Agency just made things worse. I think the difference now is the blogs and publications like BBA. Now fans know what is in the pipeline and there seem to be a growing sentiment to see what they can do. The majority of fans and the front office still wants to win now at any cost and Cashman must be under a lot of pressure to find a balance. Also, Drew Henson was a Yankee prospect that didn’t pan out.
Joe Buck ruins my life…… I’m with you brother. You have the greatest user name since Die Accorsi. Fox must hate Giant fans.
So…they should do what? Stick these guys back in the minors and sign Livan Hernandez? ”
i’m just saying bring up players really young actually cost more than bringing them at a more cost efficient time. for instance, papelbon made 425 thousand last year at age 27.
that’s a different scenario than bringing hughes up at age 20. i don’t know what the optimal age to bring up players, but i know there must be one. the yankees are new at going with younger players, so it may make sense to bring up hughes now because there is no one already there who’s 25 say and just a good at hughes at 21. but once highes is there and he’s 24, then he’ll block another 20 year old coming up the way he did.
and that’s good because then the 20 year old can get closer to their peak years before the 6 year meter starts ticking. it might be good for their arms too to develop slower.
OYF is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. good stuff.
“Our farm system right now is the best it’s been in ages.”
I agree with Rebecca. Our farm system is improving by the year and if Cashman lets these prospects develop and not get traded or rushed, we should have the #1 farm system soon enough.
“Since then, more than ever, the Yankees made it a point to sign big-name free agents, trade away top prospects for veterans who were declining or simply did not produce, and emphasize offense over pitching and defense.”
i have to disagree with this assessment.
in the last 7 years, what were these “top prospects for veterans” trades you mention? i don’t really remember any.
i guess you could say the Vazquez trade, but he was only 27 and was one of the best pitchers in the National League. also, bringing up that trade kindof contradicts your next sentence.
i don’t think you can count the weaver trade, since Lilly is OLDER than Weaver, and Weaver was a much better pitcher at the time.
the Yankees didn’t make a deliberate choice to emphasize offense over pitching/defense. there just hasn’t been a lot of pitching on the market in the last few years. so they improved the team where they could, the offense. it’s not like they were ignoring the pitching on purpose.
they got burned on a few pitching acquisitions, so the Yankees decided the only way to get good, young pitching was to develop their own.
we are starting to see this pay off in 2008.
you guys just have to wait one more year (and i am not talking about Johan, if the Twins lower their demands, the Yankees will do it. if they don’t they won’t.).
“i’m just saying bring up players really young actually cost more than bringing them at a more cost efficient time. for instance, papelbon made 425 thousand last year at age 27.”
Papelbon also went to college, Phil Hughes came straight from high school. Phil Hughes spent the same amount of time in the minors as Papelbon. Hughes pitched 275IP’s and Papelbon pitched 277 IP’s. Why would you stunt your prospects’ development simply to keep from paying him. That’s how the Rays operate. The Yankees aren’t worried about paying money to their players.
It continues to amaze that people keep bringing up Clemens win-loss record in his last couple of years with Boston and compare them his win-loss record with Toronto. The facts are that other than the one season, his numbers from ’93-’96 weren’t that different. The difference was better health, better team and bigger ballpark. Since he left Toronto, his numbers haven’t gotten better, even with better teams. They didn’t get better until he moved to a non-hitter’s league.
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned how much bigger he’s gotten. I suppose that will be next.
there is no set age for when prospects are ready to be called up; all players mature at different levels, and whether they are 20 or 26… if the organization feels that the particular player has established a certain level of dominance at the minor league level and think that he can learn and fine tune himself at the MLB level, thats when you make the call.
hmmm, I agree, they need to develop the farm system, that allows for some flexibility. One of the problems I have with the current crop of pitching they are signing is they all seem to be right handed pitchers. I understand you sign the talent that is out there and go with the best available, but it seems the current thinking is power pitching righties.
I think the developing farm system can become a double edged sword though. Yes, its fun to see your “own” talents develop and come up through the system, but no team ever gets all the best talent. Sometimes you can fall too much for the hype over developing players, reading too much into the stats they are putting up, and then when they are brought to the majors they fizzle out.
Randy, I don’t think it really matters about holding players back due to age/ peak potentials. I think its more about keeping them in the minors to develop and come up when they are really ready to do so. Hughes was brought up early, as we all know, due to all the problems with SP. It was only between a half a year and a year early though. Some talents you don’t keep back. It doesn’t make sense to hold back a player who can make a contribution – a positive contribution – to the team because they aren’t in their “peak” years. Sometimes you just have to ride the wave.
When you wrote that if the yankees were the marlins and said the the yankees wouldn’t have A-rod, Jeter,Abreu,Matsui, you forgot that the yankees wouldn’t have *Cano*,*Wang*, cause they would cost too much too just like they traded Miguel Cabrera. _Thank_ _You_
Amen, Old Goat.
“The facts are that other than the one season, his numbers from ‘93-’96 weren’t that different. The difference was better health, better team and bigger ballpark”
also, those Boston teams in the last few seasons were pretty bad on defense.
Whoever… I think the Yankees would have held on to them up to now, but you are right in that going forward they would be in the process of being moved.
“the yankees could get more bang for their buck if the peak years were the cheap years of 1-6.”
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“Huhhh?? This doesn’t make any sense.”
there’s a thought in there somewhere. until i get that second cup of coffee,it takes a while to get them out clearly. players peak in their late twenties. i’m just saying that the youth movement needs to take into account when those peak year are if a team is trying to maximize performance for dollars spent.
Old Goat-
Well said, that’s exactly what I was thinking.
“One of the problems I have with the current crop of pitching they are signing is they all seem to be right handed pitchers. I understand you sign the talent that is out there and go with the best available, but it seems the current thinking is power pitching righties. ”
it would be nice to have some more left handers, but i think the Yankees are simply taking the pitchers that they feel have the most talent. i don’t think it’s intentional.
i don’t want them to take a pitcher they have rated a little lower than another pitcher because he is left handed.
“I understand you sign the talent that is out there and go with the best available, but it seems the current thinking is power pitching righties.”
That’s who’s been available. There wasn’t a lefty better than Ian when they took Ian. There wasn’t a righty better then Joba (given his attendant injury questions) when they took Joba.
“Sometimes you can fall too much for the hype over developing players, reading too much into the stats they are putting up,”
Fortunately, with Phil, pretty much every talent evaluator, stathead or otherwise, was rating him one of the best pitching prospects in baseball in 07. And now, it’s Joba. These guys aren’t over-inflated. They are legitimate ace prospects. They might wash out, but if you’re going to bet on a prospect, these are the kind you bet on. They’re not highly rated on great-stuff-if-they-can-control-it like many other guys. They have great stuff and they know where it’s going when they throw it. And they have excellent makeup — especially Phil.
It seems to me that with the Yankees recently signing players in their teens to contracts and their agents insisting upon them being placed on the 40 man rosters; that the whole argument about keeping them in the minors is mute. As their MLB service time starts ticking right away, thus getting them to FA earlier.
Of course if they don’t work out, I imagine they will be dumped a lot quicker than if they had taken the traditional route of signing a minor league contract w/o a spot on the 40 man roster right away.
Thoughts??
” Some talents you don’t keep back. It doesn’t make sense to hold back a player who can make a contribution – a positive contribution – to the team because they aren’t in their “peak†years. Sometimes you just have to ride the wave.”
i agree with that with position players especially. you wouldn’t want to hold back a jeter or arod or cano.
but all things equal, for winning, i would like to have a team of players in their peak years. for the specific case of the yankees right now, i understand that in their case it makes sense to bring up hughes ,kennedy, and chamberlain. if they had good pitchers in the rotation who were in their peak years, it wouldn’t make sense.
‎* how * ~ do ~ ^ these ^ @ work @ . + do + – you – *know* ~thank~ ^you^ @very@ +much+ _for_ -everything- – Thanks -
“It seems to me that with the Yankees recently signing players in their teens to contracts and their agents insisting upon them being placed on the 40 man rosters;”
Which teenager have the Yankees signed and then placed on the 40 man?
there’s a thought in there somewhere. until i get that second cup of coffee,it takes a while to get them out clearly. players peak in their late twenties. i’m just saying that the youth movement needs to take into account when those peak year are if a team is trying to maximize performance for dollars spent
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Fortunately for us, the Yankees aren’t concerned about money, only when it comes to longterm contracts for pitchers. If a player is deemed ready by the his minor league coaches & other personnel, why not give them a shot. Hughes may have benefited from a little more seasoning last year, but after his performance in the post season, being called into a game he wasn’t expecting to be pitching in & excelling, he is truly ready for the Majors.
hmmm
January 17th, 2008 at 10:21 am
“The facts are that other than the one season, his numbers from ‘93-’96 weren’t that different. The difference was better health, better team and bigger ballparkâ€
also, those Boston teams in the last few seasons were pretty bad on defense
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The one other thing I see continuously, from fans and writers is his supposed ballooning up in comparison to his` Boston years.
I went back and checked his baseball cards and several old yearly periodicals and encyclodedias and pulled his ht/wt. I checked 6 different cards each year. Each of the cards of that year was either the same or within a pound.
1985 Rookie card. 6’4″ 205
1991 6’4″ 220
1995 6’4″ 220
1996 6’4″ 230
1999 6’4″ 230
2001 6’4″ 238
2005 6’4″ 235
2007 6’4″ 235
What does all of this mean? Not a damned thing, except the only time his weight ballooned over 10 pounds was in hisBoston years. It’s not scientific or proof of anything, just wanted to see if Boston fans’ memories were as good as they claimed. apparently not.
“The Yankees aren’t worried about paying money to their players.”
i don’t think that’s true. as matter of fact, i know it’s not true. the yankees get twitchy when they go over 200 million. if they didn’t care about money, they’d have a payroll of 300 million and release giambi, farnsworth, and igawa.
they do care about money. they care about it right now because they are at their high limit of where they want to be. when a team starts the meter running on the 6 cheap years has to have an effect on getting the most performance for the dollar.
i don’t like the 6 year rule because i think it’s unfair to young players, but it’s a reality of the game. i don’t know the answer of the optimum time to bring up a young player to take advantage of the cheap 6 years in relation to that players peak year, but i’ll bet someone does.
and if a pitcher has proven himelf at the minor league level, and the organization feels he’s best served at that point to learn from the ML staff, then i’d prefer that he do so, and utilize his ability to help the MLB club instead of tinkering stagnantly with his stuff and wasting innings on his arm in the lower levels of the system.
If a player is good enough (example Cano, Wang,) at a young age that he shows he’s as good as veteren players or even better than them why wait till their ‘prime years’? They are good now and getting better use them now and pay for them later. Bringing up a player has nothing to do with how his ‘prime years’ are going to be it has to do with how good he is now. So if he’s great don’t waste his time at lower levels.
“The Yankees aren’t worried about paying money to their players.â€
id have to differ there, i think part of the reason for the youth movement is the fact that the yankees want to reduce thier payroll or at least keep it level, and still be an elite team. the WSJ has indicated that the yankees are losing money. Its easy to say that this is offset by the increase in the value of mlb franchises and especially the yankees, but people who run buisnesses do not like to be in the red. i think cash plan to develop rather than buy a pitching staff is to a great extend a result of this. In looking at their options to control player costs, they realize that good starting pitching is the rarest and therefore the most expensive commodity. they paid about $50M to Clemens/Petitte/Moose/Pavano last season and the pitching still wasnt enough to get them where they wanted to go. That is why i dont think we’re gonna see the big twins deal.
“for one thing, wouldn’t it be better for the yankees if they were bringing up a pitcher like hughes when he was closer to his peak years( say age 25-31) than bringing him at age 20 ? his cheap 6 years will tick off before his peak performance years.”
Players need to be challenged in order to get to the next level. Keeping guys like Hughes, Joba, and IPK in the minors for an extra 3 years would only hurt them. Not to mention it doesn’t really make any sense having them down there completely dominating the league year in and year out. But even aside from that, if you have ever played a sport at a competitive level you know the way to really improve your game is to be playing with people that are challenging you and making you think. You learn so much more from the opponent and from your teammates that helps improve your own game.
“i don’t think that’s true. as matter of fact, i know it’s not true. the yankees get twitchy when they go over 200 million. if they didn’t care about money, they’d have a payroll of 300 million and release giambi, farnsworth, and igawa.”
What homegrown Yankee player has the organization ever tried to short change? If anything they overpay for their players, meaning their homegrown players. They may be leary of going over 200Mil, but when one of their own comes up through their system and it’s time to pay them, they pay them.
“i don’t like the 6 year rule because i think it’s unfair to young players, but it’s a reality of the game. i don’t know the answer of the optimum time to bring up a young player to take advantage of the cheap 6 years in relation to that players peak year, but i’ll bet someone does.”
I’d be willing to bet that no one does because everybody matures at a different level. You can’t hold back talent that deserves to be in the majors trying to keep costs down.
The books can be juggled to read anyway they want them to read. If it shows them losing money, so much the better.
Open mouth, insert foot.
The only example on the 40 man roster as provided by MLB.com that I could come up with was a catcher named Cervelli who is 20.
Sorry.
I also think Brackman (a pitcher) was one who signed a contract based on being placed on the 40 man roster.
Jesse, Miranda also got a major league contract when he signed, although he’s slightly older.
amen to will’s post. keeping a player longer in the minors, especially a pitcher, keeps him from developing. very few pitchers have big impact in thier first few years, especially the great ones. santana’s first 2 seasons were nothing to write home about. he had to get up to the majors to learn how to pitch to mlb hitters to develop into the elite pitcher he is now.
this brings up another important point, how will yankee fans react if hughes has an era over 6 this season? i think the ny post will be calling him ‘phil the flop’ or something like that and he will be booed at times. But this is the reality of a pitcher’s develpment and yankee fans better be able to put up with the bad as well as the good if they are ever going to develop thier own elite pitchers.
“What homegrown Yankee player has the organization ever tried to short change?”
of the top of my head. pettitte when he left for houston. rivera and posada last winter.
now that i have met your assinine standards:
you are a moron
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please post some stats or links to support your opinion
“this brings up another important point, how will yankee fans react if hughes has an era over 6 this season? i think the ny post will be calling him ‘phil the flop’ or something like that and he will be booed at times. ”
yup, he will be booed. that’s what yankee fans do now. they boo everyone that doesn’t produce as soon as they come up or if they don’t get a hit in every AB. it’s pretty irritating.
Hughes was booed at times last season. it was embarrassing.
“of the top of my head. pettitte when he left for houston. rivera and posada last winter.”
aren’t you guys talking apples and oranges? i think raymagnetic is talking about the first time they hit free agency.
all of those guys had already made a TON of money from the Yankees.
i don’t see how they were short-changed simply b/c it’s yankee policy to not negotiate before their contract is up.
we can after the MERITS of that policy (and hopefully the Yankees learned something this year), but that’s not you are arguing about, right?
“Hughes was booed at times last season. it was embarrassing.”
I’ve seen worse, but, yeah, when you have people, just like a couple on this board that will boo because “they disappointed me”, it gets pretty sickening. The only ones that deserve booing are those that don’t give full effort, and, that doesn’t include players that don’t run face first into a wall or doesn’t dive for a non-catchable ball because it looks cool. False hustle doesn’t impress me in the least.
oyf
by your ‘manlaw’:
“You can criticise, p*ss and moan as much as you like as long as you also post a viable rebuttal.”
i posted a viable rebuttal and by your rule i was free to criticize.
in fact i dont think you’re moron, you are a thinking man, and i have never before made any personal attacks on anyone, including you.
i was making a point of the stupidity of your ‘manlaw’
“I’d be willing to bet that no one does because everybody matures at a different level.”
baseball prospectus probably has something. my premise is that the 6 year rule is an artificial restraint on the marketplace, and it impacts when to bring up players.
it’s a fact in general that players from age 20 through age 26,aren’t as good as players age 26-32.
it’s a fact that players age 20 through age 26 are cheaper than players 26-32.
usually,when someone is better and when someone is cheaper happens at a different time. to optimize better and cheaper takes some really smart people in the front office.
i’ll defer to the people who are good at gmats,mcats,and lsats to do the number crunching to come up with some guiding principles, but i’m sure if money matters, it’s not just a case of bringing up someone when they are good enough.
i think one of the reasons why a major league front office needs to have some really smart people is because of the problem of peak years/ cheap years.
in my post about what if phil has an era over 6, i left out: santana’s rookie era: 6.47
Old Goat – I agree with your philosophy 100%
AND I believe Cashman agrees also… 100%
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“Plain and simple, there needs to be a balance of signing FA players and using talents from within. Striking that balance is what Cashman failed to do through these past years.”
However, I must disagree with the above statement.
1) From 2005 to present, this has been a very old and very expensive team. No balance.
2) Even with getting ZERO (expensive, impact) FAs over the last 3 offseasons, and even with our recent infusion of youth, while better then 2005, we are still an older (ARod, Jetes, Mats, JD, Giambi, Pettitte, Mo, Posada) and expensive team.
3) There have NOT been decent deals on quality FAs over the last 3 years. Zito? Meche? JD Drew? I think passing on Beltran was a mistake, but there haven’t been any ‘big names’ of late that I regret passing on. Please name the players you think Cashman should have gotten.
Even though a lot of money is coming off the books soon, Wang and Cano might both cost $10m this year, and their cost will continue to go up. Same with Melky.
Our current team is a good balance. Not perfect, as I’d rather have another vet SP and more kids who are position players…. but this is what we have, and are making due.
Developing a farm system, and actually getting quality players from it is VERY HARD.
Offering a STUD FA $20m/yr for the Yankees is very easy.
So over the last 3 years, we have done the hard part, developing youth, slightly lowering payroll, and still having a competative team.
We should have enough money to buy a few studs (Tex,??), have some quality vets (ARod, Jetes, Posada, etc) and have a bunch of quality cheap kids. In terms of balance, I think Cashman has been PERFECT in the last 3 offseasons.
If your issue is that we aren’t getting Santana, I don’t think it is an issue of ‘keeping kids for kids sake’, but that the trade, the DEAL, is not a good one… especially for the long term.
At $20M+/yr for a long contract, that is a big commitment even as an FA. But to give up 3 or 4 of our TOP 8 prospects (I am calling Hughes a prospect for this comment) on top of that? Even if you don’t agree, certainly you can see Cashmans thinking?
As I posted before, whether or not Santana is the right deal, is a coin flip. I believe Cashman has judged this deal on its merits (and Hal too) and have just decided it is not the right deal for this team.
I would also mention that in terms of WinShares, we can probably get 50% more with the Santana money by getting other players instead.
“we can after the MERITS of that policy (and hopefully the Yankees learned something this year), but that’s not you are arguing about, right?”
i’m arguing that the optimism in pablo’s well written original post about bringing up energetic prospects can be taken too far. i don’t want to see too many young players simply because good players in their peak years will beat good young players. in other words, players like hughes at 28 will, more often than not, be better than players like hughes at 21.
but it’s not just how good a player is; it’s also how cheap the player is. good teams( in this restrained marketplace) are composed of a balance of both.
i’m just saying if a team is trying to keep costs down they have to pay attention to the the 6 year meter. the yankees included.
imb, I don’t think the largest factor is the money spent on veterans vs. young controlled pitchers. I think it is more a factor of what talents are available along with the cost of that talent.
How often do really good pitchers come up for grabs? Most times its only via trade, which means giving up young for proven. Few reach Free Agency, though to be honest, I think with all the deals that have been given out these last few years, that trend will be changing. One thing about developing your own pitching talent is that you have them. You don’t have to wait and hope for one to come on the market, or have to empty the farm system for them.
Payroll does get to a limit, even with a team like the Yankees. However, I don’t think they would balk at signing Santana this year with all that is potentially coming off next year. It is Santana, the Yankees know that. The cost to the youth is what is holding them back, from what I can see. The money talk was just a deflection tactic.
If a team like the Yankees is winning in the post season more, then cheap young players or more expensive veterans aren’t going mean as much. They will have the money.
One of the valuable aspects of holding on to the youth and bringing them up through the system is the ties they build with their fellow players. Kennedy, Hughes and Joba seem like they are pretty good friends. That is a plus to the team chemistry. Add in some of the position players and that helps overall attitude of the team. You can’t put a price on that.
Why can’t the Yankees for once have a semi-transitional year, where they get used to their new manager, and we see how good the young pitchers are?
I’m all for Santana, but as a free agent. Guess what? My gut tells me that Santana feels the same way as well.
Bill Smith can only get slightly over two draft picks for him, and knows it. The Minny fans will go nuts if that’s all he gets. Therefore, it appears that the safe strategy is to hold Santana and see what happens this year. Maybe Pohlad will have a change of heart….maybe Santana will be amazing in his contract year. Everyone has an out under that scenario. I am sure Santana is influenced by ARod’s year and the monster contract it got him.
One more year gives everyone some breathing room to see what really is going with the young pitching, especially in August, when fatigue sets in.
There will be one more attempt at this prior to the start of the year, once everyone sees the pitching in ST. I doubt anything is going to happen.
In terms of shortchanging Pettitte, maybe George knew about the HGH elbow thing after 03, and was so pissed off that it took Cashman a few weeks to get Pettitte a contract. If that is true, isn’t it interesting that the Sox offered Pettitte a large contract, probably knowing the same thing, just like they did with Gagne this year.
Bottom line is that the Sox are likely Steroid City, and the Mitchell report was a diversion from their team.
Rivera and Posada were first time free agents. Re Pettitte, the Yankees had publicly tried to trade him (at one point to the Phillies. They let these rumors hang starting back in the late 90′s. Pettitte didn’t get in bar fights, pitch drunk, etc. George supposedly wasn’t big on nice guys who’d been with the team their entire career. They could’ve made a simple phone call to Pettitte after the 2004 season window to say they didn’t want to do a big deal with him, but lacked the common courtesy to do so. Yet threw money at stiffs like Kevin Brown. They were more than willing to talk with Arod during the season. A few years ago Rivera asked for a contract in spring training or the beginning of the season and got it. A couple years before that they entered into arbitration against Rivera and beat him.
It continues to amaze that people keep bringing up Clemens win-loss record in his last couple of years with Boston and compare them his win-loss record with Toronto.
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aaaaaahhhh Grasshopper… very nice!
Manlaw #1 (chicks should comply when not talking about shoes or closet space)
1) Thou shalt NEVER speak about a Pitcher’s quality using W/L record.
Thou shall talketh in terms of: ERA+, WHIP, K/BB, GB/FB and K/9 (did I miss anything?)
OYF, that is exactly my point though. The Yankees ARE getting increasingly older, and they have not maintained the balance of Vet/ Youth. This past season, when some of the changes started happening during the second half is when the team got to be more balanced.
I agree with you that it isn’t there yet. It could be starting to get there this coming season with all the young arms, but there are only two position players, maybe part time three, who are young.
I would like to see a little more youth in the OF, two out of the three should be young. Infield, in my opinion should have the central positions, 2nd and SS as younger players. First it doesn’t matter as much, and third has A-Rod so no need to change now.
I think we are close to being on the same page, but I don’t think I am getting my points across to you.
Yankee fans need to remind themselves that the new and better approach to building the roster is just now reaching fruition that doesn’t happen overnight. The best of new talent is yet to come based on projections. Free agent buying will become a final thought.
Eventually they’ll be somewhat of an overload of talent and some will be used for trading purposes depending on their ceiling shown in the farm system and the needs of the big team.
“One of the valuable aspects of holding on to the youth and bringing them up through the system is the ties they build with their fellow players. Kennedy, Hughes and Joba seem like they are pretty good friends. That is a plus to the team chemistry. ”
good point. jeter, posada, and rivera have been together forever. it’s a factor when deciding about trades with players like cano and cabrera.
PYF, interesting views there. I think Hank is willing to have a possible transitional year, given his comments earlier when Girardi was hired.
I think they are also showing it some by their willingness to be conservative with the Santana trade. I think the Yankees feel pretty much as we fans do about the Santana situation. We would love to see Johan in pinstripes of the Yankee variety, but don’t want to give up on the baby bombers.
This is probably about as risky as you are going to see the Yankees be. Staying with the kids in the rotation. There are some interesting possibilities coming next year if the kids tank.
randy, I agree. I wonder how that dynamic between Melky and Cano would be missed if Melky gets traded. I think in some ways, being from the “outside” was part of A-Rod’s problems. He finally started feeling like a team member last season. It showed in his interviews and in his play.
I read that the Yankees have something like 30 pitchers who are coming through the ranks. While not every one of them will work out, that is still a lot of talent and depth. That is why I am surprised that some package of more lower level players wasn’t able to get the Santana trade done. Sometimes a team like the Twins would go with more players – as they seem to be doing with the Mets – to even out the risks. Eventually some will have to be moved if they are showing they have the talent. Unless of course the Trinity have some failures.
whether its dollars or just plain talent the yanks wont make the trade imo. although the yankees do wantt to restrain payroll, they could still sign santana as a FA and reduce payroll, but once again giving up the young talent kills that.
you could see, even if they gave johan $25M, cmw $10M, franchise and joba and kennedy $2M, the SP payroll is reduced $10M from where it was last season. But if they make the trade they will have to pay johan $25M, cmw $10M, and joba $2M, they would have to expect to go pay 2 other guys something like $7M each, making the SP payroll just about the same as it is right now.
and $7M doesnt buy you top talent for the bottom of the rotation either.
i miss bernie,
But it doesn’t matter. The Yankees farm system is stacked with young pitchers like Hughes and Kennedy. [sarcasm alert]
just in case everyone missed it, Cano is on the record as saying that he wouldnt disapprove of a Johan trade if Melky was in it. They might be very close, but it doesnt seem like he’s too broken up over the possiblity that it could happen.
TurnTwo, it’s not that Cano wouldn’t be broken up over it as much as he sees it as an opportunity for Cabrera to be the starting center fielder from the start of the season, than to be brought in after someone gets hurt or fails, like the last two years.
OYF, that is exactly my point though. The Yankees ARE getting increasingly older, and they have not maintained the balance of Vet/ Youth
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I don’t understand.
Much to some peoples dismay, Cashman dumped Shef and RJ for kids. They kept Hughes and IPK instead of getting Santana.
In 2008, we may have the following on the 25 man rooster: Wang, Cano, Melky, Hughes, Joba, IPK, FrankenShelly, and probably 2 kids in the BP. That’s 9 young players. In 2009, with luck with may add 2 of Horne, AJax, Sanchez, Meloncon.
How could they have gotten any younger?
Are you objecting to resigning Mo and Po?
Are you objecting to resigning ARod?
What older players have they signed in the last 3 years?
I don’t understand what you would have proposed INSTEAD of what they have done
The affect of George stepping aside can’t be applauded enough. His burning desire as an owner couldn’t be questioned but many times his method of putting a winner on the field was.
Once he realized, was told, and dealt with the fact that his time to turn the reigns over had arrived, so did the direction of his team.
The first sense of it was giving Brian Cashman more voice in field personnel matters 2 years ago and how they would be procured more sensibly. The sons show little of the demanding traits of the father who by now would have had Johan Santana locked up.
The last times that George showed real demands was the Randy Johnson “must have” deal and the Joe Torre ultimatum before the ALDS of 2007.
GB, right… and Cano was lobbying to bring in Johan, even if it included Melkman… i think he realizes the opportunity for Melky to play and grow, and that they’ve invented telephones so they can still talk even if they are in different cities.
just in case everyone missed it, Cano is on the record as saying that he wouldnt disapprove of a Johan trade if Melky was in it.
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So, if he had NOT felt that way, he should have gone on records OPPOSING the deal? When a reported sticks a mic in a ballplayers face, do you think they always express their true fellings? (see: Jeter, Derek)
stan
not to dump on old George, the yankees dynasty of the 90′s was to some extent assembled when the old man was banned from running the yanks.
that being said, “thanks you for a great run George!”
Aww, according to Heyman, Selig got a 3 year extension
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html
OYF, did you read the article? seemed pretty clear to me that he was being honest with the reporter.
Nice article, Pablo.
This may be a bit “nickpicky”, but its unfair to include Drew Henson with the group of names you’ve labeled as “acquired busts”, especially after you offer the opinion that “While all prospects don’t pan out as planned – not many do, really ……”.
“I would like to see a little more youth in the OF, two out of the three should be young. Infield, in my opinion should have the central positions, 2nd and SS as younger players. First it doesn’t matter as much, and third has A-Rod so no need to change now.”
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Look, you could say “OYF, you’re a hell of a guy, and good looking too. You should be banging Pamela Anderson!
Well.. I agree with you 100% Your philosophy is perfect. However, I have one question: HOW DO I GET HER?
Read your statement above. Where do these missing young players come from? Does Cashman have a ‘Young Stud Manufacturing Machine’ that he’s too lazy to use?
You want 2 young OFer? Fine. Great idea. WHO? Give me some names. How do we get them? FAs? Trade? Kidnapping? Who do we ship to Siberia and eat their salary? Matsui or JD?
You want a second baseman younger then Cano? You want a younger SS… so you want to what? trade Jeter? (or send him to Siberia?).
Your philosophy is fine. I love it. But you are NOT proposing how to do this. Cashman is not magic. He can not just produce players from thin air. He has to deal with existing players and contracts, almost all of who have no-trade clauses. tell me WHO these 2 young OFer and 2 young INFers are, how we could have gotten them, and what we do with the guys currently in those positions.
OYF, and along those lines, we have veterans under contract, like Matsui, Damon, Giambi, etc, who tie up the organization when trying to upgrade in talent and youth.
just like people need to kind of relax and allow the young guys time to develop, you arent going to just bring in young guys to take over for these vets while they are still under contract… we just have to wait for these contracts to expire to really be able to expand the Cashman movement.
First question I have is why you’d want Pamela Anderson? She’s looking more and more like an aging Mae West or Manie Van Doren every day, even if she’s only half natural.
OYF,
I know we’re not supposed to diss each other here (read the tribunal earlier), but Pamela Sue Anderson?!?
In two years, the Yanks have three outfielders with expired contracts, if they resign Abreu for ’09-10. That gives kids like Jackson, Tabata and Fortenberry to grow up and start being productive as full timers.
“First question I have is why you’d want Pamela Anderson?”
At our ages, “if She’s breathin’ She’s seethin’! “
gb7
i think you just sent 75% of these bloggers to wiki with that mamie van doren mention old timer!
Yeah, I’ve seen Mae West, but who’s the other babe? Before my time I guess. lol.
mel, she was a rival to marilyn monroe, her worst career move was probably not dying of an overdose.
i’m old enough to know who she is (sorry to say) but i do confess i did have to go to imdb to figure out if i had ever seen her in a movie and i did: “the candidate” (excellent film!), but was shocked to learn that she had a part in “slackers”
Thanks, Bernie.
OYF,
Just stumbled across Mamie’s site: http://www.mamievandoren.com/
She makes Pamela Sue Anderson look tame! Scroll down, there’s a youtube clip you might be interested in. I was too scared to watch.
She even has a myspace page. Kids nowadays.
Mel, Mamie was the equivalent of Jane Mansfield without the talent. She was in a lot of the Russ Myers early movies and really, more of a celebrity along the Paris Hilton mold. Her biggest claim to fame was appearing on the Beverly Hillbillies and dating Bo Belinsky.
I thought Bud was retiring. Total BS this ahole gets off Scott free for the roid era.
And so Wiki tells me she was born in 1931
Honestly, I’m impressed she can still manage to look like that now. Um, hurray for technology?
Jennifer,
Selig had the unanimous support of the owners. Worse, George Steinbrenner gave a totally kiss-ass statement through Rubenstein.
A monkey could be the commissioner and they still would rake in $6B a year. Why do we have to put up with him for three more years? Oh the injustice!
Good morning,afternoon.
Being that the 2001 year was mentioned on this thread. I asked this question a year ago and i know we have some more people in here. So i would like to get your oppinion on this.
If you had to change one outcome in our Yankees past between winning the world series in 01. Or not blowing the 3-0 lead to boston. Which one would you want changed?
a. get our 4 championship in a row
b. keep the curse going and get another title while were at it.
Its tough but i would do the 01 over again. Just because we were one inning away from a 4 peat. Which doesnt happen too often. But on the other hand it killed to watch them celebrate their first.
blargh,
no kidding! i’m impressed, she’s a year older than my mother!
Plastics-making your life easier!
sos
its easy for me i vote B.
not so much b/c the sox won in ’04 but because of how bad a collapse it was for the yanks.
btw, ’04 was not the sox 1st WS win.
OK, went back to close the page and I see a big breast. Yes, one breast. Apparently she spent Halloween at the Playboy mansion. She also did a photoshoot with the aforementioned Pamela Sue Anderson. She makes Pammy look like a pre-teen and her face in that photo looks like Joan Crawford. I think the older gentlemen here might enjoy Mamie’s site better than Pete’s.
In defense of medical technology, I have to say that Mamie looks better in her golden years. 1931? Really?
You’re pure class, Bernie, when you can decide that the worse thing a person didn’t do was OD and dying.
Dude – the remaining half is good enough. You know what they say: Half a Pamela Anderson is better then none. I know you prefer to eat Moose (and other SPs), but I prefer to eat….
SOS, I would vote A. I remember sitting in my dorm room at school that night, and after Gonzo hit that bloop, you couldve heard a pin drop around campus… even the Mets fans knew not to say anything, at least that night.
OYF (and others),
Do you think that trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for Santana is a good idea IF we get to hold on to Joba, Phil, Melky and Cano? (of course that would mean losing IPK, Ajax, Horne, etc.).
Of course it’s another question whether an IPK/Ajax/Horne+ deal will get it done once spring training begins). I don’t know, but I’d be willing to make this type of trade if MN is.
GB7,
I think he meant Marilyn’s popularity, notoriety, and iconic status came from her tragic death at an early age. All the Hollywood babes wanted it, but maybe not at that cost.
Still can’t believe I’ve never heard of Mamie. The only Mamie I knew was the movie.
IMDB also lists February 6, 1931 as her birthdate
Impressive indeed
gb
it was a joke dude, get over it. nobody knocked you for saying she had no talent and beverly hillbillies was her ‘claim to fame’.
WELL, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC//!!!!!! OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS/.! PHIL IS ON THE INTERNETS!!! OF ALL THE, PHIL IS IN GEORGE’S, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC!!! PHIL IS IN GEORGE’S BOX, AND HE’S BEATING UP RAWJAH!!! RAWJAH CLEMENS IS IN GEORGE’S BOX WITH THAT MCNAMEE KID, WHO MUST HAVE CLIMBED BACK UP THE FACADE, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC!!/.>!!!! AND PHIL IS POUNDING BOTH OF THEM UNMERCIFULLY, WHIPPING THEM WITH RAWJAH’S RIPPED THIRD FOREHEAD EAR, OF ALL THE, THAT MCNAMEE DRAGGED BACK FROM THE, OH MY, STANDS!!! HE IS MY NEW, OH MY GOODNESS, PHIL, YOU ARE MY NEW HERO!!! WHEN YOU SIGN A FREE AGENT CONTRACT TO RETURN TO NEW YORK FROM THE TWINS IN 2012, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC, BE SURE TO ANNOUNCE YOUR RETURN FROM GEORGE’S BOX, AND I’LL CRY FOR YOU, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC!!! THESE TEARS ARE FOR, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC, THE LOVE I NO LONGER FEEL FOR RAWJAH!!! PHIL HAS THROWN RAWJAH AND MCNAMEE OUT OF THE WINDOW OF GEORGE’S BOOTH!!!! THEY ARE SPLATTERED ON THE SEATS BELOW!! JOE TORRE IS MY FRIEND, THESE TEARS ARE FOR, OF ALL THE DRAMATIC, MY NEW HERO PHIL PHRANCHISE!!!! TOODLES!!!!
Mel, you’ve never heard of Mamie Eisenhower?
Yazman,
Just reading that first sentence sounds crazy. On top of the talent they have to sign a big extension.
Do you think the Mets would give Santana Yankee type money?
i miss bernie,
I am aware it was 1st in 87. But who was alive to remember the last one. First in our lifetime.
It was the most crushing moment of my watching sports history. I think more because of the Yankees being so resilliant through out that series. I thought we were out matched pitching wise and still battled to be in possition to win it. I think i would have preferred a home run shot than a broken bat blooper. It just makes you ask what if? As far as everyone understanding not to mess with me. It was totally the opposite. My phone rung off the hook and offcoarse i didnt answer a single call. I hate to say it but that was the best world series i have ever seen. I just wish their were alternate endings.
Bernie, there’s a world of difference between saying somebody should have died and saying they had no talent. For somebody who’s so absolutely disgusted with the “cheaters like Pettitte” and wanting to act as if you’re above it all, you certainly seem to lack any tact or common decency.
First off, the Yanks lost the series 4-3 but lost that game 3-2. This is easily available information — on baseball-reference.com. Second, Chuck Knoblauch was nowhere near the bloop by Gonzo because it wasn’t hit up the middle or near second base — Gonzo popped it behind third, therefore it dropped in behind Brosius and exactly at a spot where Jeter could have run it down if he’d been at a regular position.
As for trading top prospects for vets — which Yanks’ prospects have burned them since 2000? Jake Westbrook? He’s mediocre. D’Angelo Jimenez? Dioner Navarro? Drew Henson? These were some of the top guys in the organization — and that tells you how the organization bonked in talent evaluation in the early ’00s. And the organization got burned by injuries, both mental (Walling) and physical (Borrell).
Geez Pete, can’t you get fill-ins who get the simple stuff right?
GB7,
I’ve heard of Ike, but not Mamie. (My first recollection of a president in the White House was Jimmy Carter)
According to the internets, Mamie van Doren was signed on the same day of Ike’s inauguration so that’s how they got Mamie. Pretty lamey.
btw, did anyone else have a hard time figuring out which person in the family picture at Phil’s webblog was Phil’s mother? I’m leaning towards the one next to Phil, but I’m thinking half-sister on the far right. Anyone?
Mel, not much doubt about the mother. Was surprised that he was such a late life baby, though.
Actually, Mel, Mamie Eisenhower looks a lot like Phil Hughes mother at that age. She wore uglier hats and bigger purses than Queen Liz.
lol, GB7.
What I was getting at was that the lady next to Phil and the lady on the far right could both pass for mother or sister age-wise.
re: Selig’s new deal
Selig insisted when his last extension was done that he’d be retiring after it expired following the 2009 season. This sets him up as commissioner through age 78.
awful…
Do you think that trading 4 of our top 10 prospects for Santana is a good idea IF we get to hold on to Joba, Phil, Melky and Cano? (of course that would mean losing IPK, Ajax, Horne, etc.).
——————————————————-
That’s a tough one. Partially, it would depend on who etc. is. IF all goes according to plan, in 09 or 10, both IPK and Horne are our #4 and #5 SPs. We would have an awesome team now, but between Santana’s salary are replacing those prospects, our payroll would be well over 200m. While we thought JD’s and Mat’s salaries were a bit high at $13m, if we lose AJax and Tabata, you can count on $30m or more to replace those 2 spots.
If etc. were a pitcher, I would probably do it, as we can stand to lose a couple of ‘lesser’ pitching prospects. However, if we lose AJax and Tabata is one swoop, we have very few position players left.
I’ll be honest. I disagree with the majority here in that I do NOT think you need a dominant Ace to win, ESPECIALLY when you have great offense. Who was our ‘Dominant Ace’ for our 4 WS teams? I think you need an excllent 1 thru 4, an above average BP and above average offense… which is exactly what our dynasty team was.
Even withOUT Santana, I think considering our farm, that we will have an outstanding 1 thru 4. But when Giambi, Mats, JD and Abreu are gone, and Posada and Jetes are 2 years older, that maintaining a great offense will be our issue.
People point to Bostons great pitching. Yes, they were #1 in tha AL in ERA. But they were ALSO #2 in FPCT and #3 in RS. Toronto was #2 in ERA, but they didn’t do so well.
Strictly from a fan’s POV, I want to see the kids. I want the Yankees to learn how to produce talent. I want to win withOUT having our team have twice, or 3 times the payroll of our competators. It is time to win using Cashman’s brain, not Georges wallet. Mind you, I don’t want to give all the Yankees money to charity, I just want brains and talent to drive the boat, and use the money as a fallback.
So I might not make that trade you propose, but I think Cashman does.
Besides Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata who are both still very young and Montero who is even younger, what other hitting prospects that even have a shot at the majors are currently in our system? I cant think of any besides role and bench players like Brett Gardner. And people put too much stock in Horne, Marquez, Mcclutchen, Cox and others. Im not even sure how much value Ian Kennedy has. I love the yankee prospects but you cant be blind to their true talents just because they are in OUR farm system. Granted, Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes have tremendous talent. And Kennedy, in his limited time in the Bronx last yr, really showed us some good stuff. But it was only in 19 innings. Hughes and Chamberlain cannot pitch more than 160 innings this yr MAX including playoff innings. I have a lot of faith in some of these youngsters but not alot of faith in our starting rotation this yr.
And I dont see any prospects ready to step in for guys like Giambi and Posada or Jeter when he is forced to move out of his home at shortstop. And Im not exactly convinced that Jackson or Tabata can provide the same or improved power and OBP and put up the numbers in the majors in order to replace Abreu. With Melkys lack of power at center, we cant put someone in right with no power as well. This post just seems far too optimistic – over the long term the future looks good but over the 2008 season, not nearly as good. Getting prospects needs to be combined with a strong hand gathering the pieces out of the free agent market and using our monetary stregnth wisely. Guys like Teixera and Santana – Stars in their prime dont go on the market every day. These guys are crucial to future success. Think about this – without santana, wang may very well be our oldest starter next season. Not exactly a veteran presence. Some our overlooking cash’s weakness which is surely the signings he has made from the free agent market so far. Acquisitions like those above will certainly improve cash’s dismal free agent history.
OYF, there are a lot of ways to bring more youth into a team. Trades, bringing them up from the farm system, signing them in FA. Not every FA is old and used and abused.
Santana is fairly young. Younger than Mussina and Pettitte and Clemens. Sabathia might be available for trade or FA soon. Teixeira isn’t old and he comes up for FA next year.
The point is, the Yankees were signing older pitchers who were past their prime, not replacing some other players with younger ones. That is the balance I was talking about. Bringing up the young arms and putting Melky in Center was a great move.
I am not arguing against A-Rod, Posada or Rivera being signed. That was great. They are the vets who can get it done. Pitching hasn’t been young enough for a number of years and this past year it took all those injuries – the Pavano Effect – to get to see some come up. Unfortunately, none were planned call ups, they were too early. Mussina being extended was not a great move. Trading Johnson was.
I believe Gonzo’s broken bat bloop was over 2nd base, near the OF grass.
Dave,
A lot of what you say is true. The cupboard is barren as far as position players go. So, shouldn’t the blue chips be held onto for trades to fill position voids? Trading good pitching for great pitching now might hurt later when other glaring needs crop up.
gb
never said i was absolutly disgusted with pettitte, just said yankee fans should be more condemning of his cheating and shaming the pinstripes, that i plan on booing him when i see him. I also said i can forgive him.
dont like it, too bad! i can assure you i wont be the only one booing.
Mel,
I completely agree. I have totally distanced myself from the position that Hughes or Chamberlain should be traded for Santana. I am hoping he goes onto the FA market. Id prefer big free agent signings rather than big trades. It just seems like our pitching rotation this yr is extremely weak compared to many, many other teams. Especially when two of them cant go more than 160 innings. One has a total of 19 innings or major league experience. And the other two (not including wang) are constantly injury risks. Not to mention, Moose’s career may very well be over – just because a contract goes on doesnt mean a pitcher is still capable of pitching in major league baseball. Our future looks bright but this seasons rotation actually looks somewhat scary – we havent really improved the team whatsoever this off-season and we just barely made it into the playoffs last yr and if not, for an incredible run in the second half and a monster yr from arod, we wouldnt have made it at all. That same team minus clemens is going into another full season with another yr tagged onto the arms of Moose and Pettitte. I also cant put much stock into Horne, Mcclutchen, Marquez or others yet. Their stats arent nearly as impressive as those put up by Hughes, Chamberlain or kennedy in similar minor league levels – and LOOK AT WHAT CLIPPARD DID IN THE MINORS. And he certainly didnt pan out as expected.
Sorry, Mel. When I first saw the poicture without reading the cations, I was thinking grandfather, mother next to Phil, sister and grandmother.
imb,
Please don’t be offended, but I think you’ll be the only Yankee fan booing. There will be people booing, but it’ll be the riffraff cheering for the opponents.
btw, when will you stop booing? Laker fans booed Kobe for demanding a trade, but it didn’t last past player intros.
picture, too***
“Mussina being extended was not a great move.”
In hindsight. He’d been better than league average in 06, especially in the first half. And he signed for league average money. They needed starters. Who should they have gotten instead?
I think Moose can be league average this year, provided that he has all of spring training to build arm strength.
Dave, the rest of the hitters are in Tampa on down. Hilligoss, Fortenberry, Sublett, Laird, Pruitt, Snyder to a certain extent (super utility type – Randy Velarde), Suttle, Holiday is well thought of. These are the main ones but, 2-4 years away. They were drafted in ’06 and ’07.
mel, we will see about the booing, as many boo’d giambi after his ‘admission’ as cheered. be carefull about referring to us all as riffraff, there are alot of people pissed off about ped’s and how they have taken over so much of the discussion about baseball and how they have skewed the record books.
and…i only plan on booing him the 1st time i see him. i feel the need to let him know that as a big fan of his, i am very dissappointed.
btw, i still say anyone who has bood tejada or bonds for thier ped use is a hypocrite not to boo pettitte for the same.
I think if Pettitte does OK this year that he will be back for at least one more go. That would keep veteran presence on the mound. Plus there are some possible pitchers who might make it to FA. Sabathia and Santana could become available.
Then you also have the possibility of the kids working out well enough that all three are in the rotation and will not be limited with the innings caps.
“and LOOK AT WHAT CLIPPARD DID IN THE MINORS. And he certainly didnt pan out as expected.”
First of all, yes he did. No one considered him MLB ready. Also, you’re judging him on what, three starts? That’s just dumb. ALSO, you’re comparing him to guys with VASTLY superior stuff who’ve already dominated AAA hitters and, in limited duty, MLB hitters.
So, the analogy does not hold.
Also…Pettitte has pitched 200+ innings for three straight years. How is he an perennial injury risk?
“Dave, the rest of the hitters are in Tampa on down.”
And, thus, many of them are unlikely to make it.
I, personally, am a strong advocate of using the pitching and low-level talent and/or any movable vets to acquire some high-ceiling AA/AAA positional talent in the middle infield and at catcher.
Dave, I think Clippard was brought up too early and he crumbled. He did have a few good outings, but sometimes you just have to go with what you can. That was why you saw so many different pitchers from the Yankees last season.
Kennedy was probably brought up too soon, but he did fine. He might only go league average, but if the offense doesn’t go to sleep, he should keep the team in the game.
Mussina wasn’t a horrible signing, but it wasn’t great. There weren’t many other possible moves to make, but with a pitcher like Moose, the decline was already showing some. I think there could have been a trade done to get a league average pitcher, but its not like it matters because it didn’t happen. I read that Mussina was working out with a personal trainer this off season. That might help out for this coming year. I think this is Mussina’s last year pitching though. At least I think it should be.
imb,
Giambi’s not as universally loved as Andy is (see definition of True Yankee). In fact, I bet the Yankee fans will show Andy a lot of love to let him know they support him. He did his mea culpa and the healing process has begun.
And the “riffraff” I referred to are the people who came to cheer for the other team. It’ll be particularly bad when Pettitte pitches against Boston. Road games will be bad, too.
I hope that the Congress thing-a-ma-jiggy doesn’t trip Andy up. We really need him. But if it gets too hairy, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him hang up his cleats and go home.
Speaking of Clippard, anybody (want to) remember the sequence of horrible luck/disasters that led up to his late May debut? A refresher on the pitching straits at the time that led to the ‘throw stuff at the wall and hope something sticks’ desperation
i wouldnt worry about the congressional hearing, fortunatly his admission means that as long as he tells the truth, he only needs to testify for a couple of hours and head off to Tampa
(apparently he can leave early if he takes the train)
ill guarantee you the notable ped users from other teams are going to be screamed at by yankee fans who will not boo andy. how do they justify that?
blarh
the one that led to Al Leiter pitching was even a bigger disaster.
uhh, there were no other notable ped users. There were only Yankees, for some odd reason. Who knows what’s going to happen with Tejada? (condolences to him and his family).
They’re talking deportation and such.
Whozat, most of those ZI listed can’t be moved until after August, but, these are the best in the system, other than Jackson, Tabata and the pitchers. I think that if NY keeps Hilligoss and even Fortenberry, the fans will like what they see, as long as they don’t slip backwards. I’m really anxious to see this new crop of Baby Bombers heading towards the Coastal Country here in Georgia/SC. I saw a couple of televised games and Sublett is going to be good. Reminds me a little of Bobby Grich with a tad more speed. That’s the only way I can describe him.
bernie:
…Yea, that one was pretty bad too
Good thing that Chacon and Small pitched the best they ever did that year (not so glad about the following year, but ehhh…)
Hmm, speaking of 2005, that was also the year that Wright got hit by a baseball twice in September, right?
The difference being that Grich batted right handed and Sublett, left handed.
Doesn’t the name Aaron Small bring a smile to your face?
mel
lying to congress is no small matter as miguel can attest. however, i think the bluster about deporting him, etc. has as much to do with underscoring to the those testifying in the clemens affair that there are serious consequences should they think they can get away with lying.
aaron small, aaron boone and henry aaron all bring a smile to my face.
do u know how Mr.Small made out last season? did he retire (he was about to when the yanks called him up in ’06)
Looks like he retired, as Baseball Reference lists no 2007 stats for Mr. Small :/
According to Wikipedia, he announced retirement on May 18, 2007 after being released by the Mariners
Aaron Small was one of those fun things that you sometimes see in baseball. Lightning in a bottle with him. Small did retire after he was released from the Mariners last year. He signed with them to a minor league contract, but was let go. He retired in May of 2007.
well i hope aaron is happy. it must be great for him that he got to cap off his career that way. he really saved the yankees bacon that season!
off to work. what is it 28 days now?
LETS GO GIANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Went to mlb.com to look up Mr. Small, but you guys took care of it. There’s an article on the Yankees page about the dynamic duo of Jeter/Cano and an interesting mailbag that talks about Jeter’s chances at the HOF if he retired today.
what it comes down to is this…there have been less and less solid free agent players in the past 5 years or so. There arent going to be that many mike mussina or manny ramirez type players hitting free agency in their prime anymore. boras is one of the few agents who likes to go to free agency, but many more players are signing extensions, which takes them to the ages of 30 or so.
therefore, the only obvious resolution is to create your own studs. however, everyone loves the kids, and doesnt want to trade any of them a way, but, lets be honest, most of these kids will never, ever, work out.
in order to get, you have to give. im not saying necessarily for the johan deal, but in general. if jake peavy happened to be available (obviously he wont be now,) youd have to heavily consider doing a similiar deal as with johan. it only makes good baseball sense.
the mets passed on getting many players for guys such as milledge and pelfrey(according to rumors,) and all those prospects they would have traded in those deals, became sub-par to bust status. then they do a ridiculous trade such as the kazmir one (by the way, that wasnt phillips…he was a decent gm.)
so this whole movement is because of the lack of strong free agent pools. teams arent letting go of their young talent, instead they sign them young now, until they reach 29 to 30…and by then, maybe people worry about pitchers’ arms and such on the other side of 30.
so cashman, and now every gm, is forced to build from within because there just isnt much out there these days.
Mel, if they can put in a player like Puckett and Ozzie Smith in on the first ticket, Jeter will have no trouble. Smith got in on personality, one home run and being able to do back flips. Puckett was strictly a sympathy vote. Had the vote come two years later, he couldn’t get in without paying admission. From some of the other writers, most think that Omar Vazquel hasn’t a chance, and he was as good as Smith defensively and head and shoulders above offensively.
I meant comparing clippards stats in the minors to guys like Horne, Mcclutchen and Marquez. It is true, I cant judge clippard on three outings but he is clearly not going to be much better than below average in the majors. I just dont like taking stats like those of Horne and Mcclutchen and then, claiming they will come into the majors as a decent starter for the yanks. Its too soon to make such a claim.
Greenberet,
Thanks for the list of tampa guys and below. Its nice to know somewhere down there we may have some future position players. I was starting to think outside of the outfield there wasnt much there.
I Miss Bernie:
I don’t disagree with that trade proposal in the least and that wasn’t my point. I simply didn’t agree with the idea of labeling Yankee fans as arrogant if they are optimistic about particular prospects. I don’t believe every prospect will become what they are projected as, but I also do not ignore young pitchers simply because there are huge odds against them ever becoming anything more than a prospect.
But, just because the Yankees farm system has a lot of good young prospects doesn’t mean that every one of them not drooled over by Baseball America should then be marginalized.
I’ve seen Marquez pitch live plenty of times and never thought of him as an exceptional prospect, but BA surprised me in describing him as a #3 or #4 starter. Do I believe he will be great? No. But, did anyone see Wang or Cano becoming the players they are now? No, again.
My point was simply about the “arrogance” comment.
I too feel there is a segment of Yankee fans who think every prospect is going to become Joba Chamberlain and Robinson Cano. However, that segment of the Yankee fanbase is a minuscule one. The rest of us should not be grouped in with them IMO.
What’s a “pythag record” (mentioned in 2nd paragraph of Pablo’s article)?
Hey all,
I haven’t been able to respond till now, but thanks for all of the positive responses and constructive criticism, and I look forward to all of you reading and enjoying Yankees: Looking for the Future.
Thanks,
Pablo
“What’s a “pythag record†(mentioned in 2nd paragraph of Pablo’s article)?”
it’s the record the team is “expected” to have based on the number of run scored and runs allowed.
studies have shown that in large samples, the number of wins correlates with the difference between runs scored and runs allowed.
from ESPN:
“ExWP: Expected winning percentage. ExW-L and ExWP are derived from Bill James’ Pythagorean theorem of baseball: Runs scored [squared] / (Runs scored [squared] + runs allowed [squared]). This formula was designed to relate a team’s runs scored and runs allowed to its won-lost record. “
Thanks Pablo,
If the Yankees could just be like the Diamondbacks and Rockies all of the team’s problems would be solved. … I mean those two teams are model franchises. … With 1 World Series title since er … forever. Way to shoot for the stars