Pinch hitting: Rivera’s Cutter
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- January
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Our pinch hitter program has a week to go. We’ve had 19 guest bloggers on a variety of subjects and they’ve generated about 1,000 comments. Next up is Brian from Rivera’s Cutter.
Brian started his blog in 2006. He wanted to start writing because he didn’t like how some segments of the mainstream media were against the Yankees. He lives in Hoboken, N.J., and teaches at a private school.
Here’s his post:
The Yankees have acquired numerous relievers over the years who were successful with other teams: Chris Hammond, Paul Quantrill, Steve Karsay, Tom Gordon, Kyle Farnsworth, Mike Myers and Alan Embree, to name a few. Of them, only Gordon was effective for the Yankees, though his meltdowns probably cost them the 2004 ALCS. While Joba Chamberlain was amazing for two months last season, the Yankees shouldn’t be forced to use a potential No. 1 starter in a setup role.
But to me, it became clear that under Joe Torre, the failing of the middle relief was a fait accompli. He had no faith in anyone who wasn’t named Mariano Rivera and the rest of the bullpen had little faith in themselves as well. We as fans learned to only trust Mariano. It was a vicious cycle.
Looking back as recently as last year, one walk issued by Farnsworth, Brian Bruney, or whoever else was often enough for Torre to come take the ball from them as the opening chords of Enter Sandman would reinforce to everyone that the Yankees had only one reliable reliever. They would leave the mound frustrated and angry, their confidence hurt. Their body language didn’t say, “Here comes Mo to help.” It said, “Everyone loves Mo and thinks I’m terrible.”
Rivera always was Torre’s security blanket, a once-in-a-lifetime kind of player. But during the dynasty years, Torre also had an underrated weapon in Ramiro Mendoza. Mendoza and his rubber arm and power sinker handled intense workloads under Torre, twice exceeding 130 innings pitched (there were no “Ramiro Rules,” unfortunately). In 2003, Mendoza finally broke down and his career never recovered.
Torre found lesser versions of Mendoza in Karsay (’02), Gordon (’04), and Proctor (’06), but it was never quite the same.
One of Torre’s greatest assets as a manager was his ability to shield his players from criticism. On the field also, he never wanted them to get embarrassed. He was quick to pull both starters and relievers. However, this mentality backfired. It was common for him to use five relievers in a victory – but why would you pull a reliever who is pitching well unless they have thrown too many pitches?
Struggles by the starting pitching only exacerbated bullpen problems. But again, everyone brought to Torre’s Yankees from the outside (Randy Johnson, Javy Vazquez, Jeff Weaver, Kevin Brown, etc) would struggle. Seemingly any pitcher, starter or reliever, would underachieve. So who was at fault? The pressures of New York or Torre?
This in many ways is up to Joe Girardi to decide. How will Girardi handle his pitchers? He will have a staggering number of quality arms at his disposal. In Florida, Girardi used primarily six young starters and an unknown bullpen and got them all to perform well. However, the following year several of the pitchers ended up on the disabled list. So was Girardi getting the most out of them or simply overusing them?
And perhaps most importantly: Can Girardi teach us to love Farnsworth?
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on Wednesday, January 23rd, 2008 at 12:08 am by Peter Abraham.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
The bullpen is the biggest issue the Yankees have in the 08 season, especially with the Big Three also being the Young Three.
Here’s hoping it gets worked out nice and proper!
And perhaps most importantly: Can Girardi teach us to love Farnsworth?
I can safely say that won’t happen. Maybe he can get something out of him, but Farnsworth and his achy back will never be loved in NY.
Brian
I think you meant exacerbated instead of exasperated. Nice try though.
and those viscous cycles, absolutely zero friction!!!
so viscous…
My main peeve with Torre was that he didn’t let pitchers work their way out of trouble. That was probably because he felt the pressure of the years of futility. That tends to happen when your issues press releases like, “Nothing less than a world championship will do. Now go get ‘em”.
Farnsworth is not worthless. He had a great end of the season (when he was able to take the mound). Don’t underestimate the effect of a contract year either. Besides Girardi has made up his mind. He’s going to make Farnsworth a great pitcher. Okay, that’s asking a little too much. He’s going to make Farnsworth a very reliable pitcher.
O/T, but somewhat related, but do you guys realize that Dotel’s going to make more than Farnsworth? Farnsworth’s salary’s not so outrageous anymore. Unless you factor in the back thingy.
Thanks for the great food for thought, Brian.
With the rules that will be in place…for the 3 big guys…I don’t think Joe G will be able to run the pitchers out there at the pace he did in Florida. This being said, we won’t know if he would have done anything different if he had his way or not. Maybe…hopefully…he would not do things they say he did. One other thing, do we know that he was responsible for the injuries in Florida? Maybe they were just one of those things that happen to pitchers. Whether they were over used or not, is not the question. The question should be; what would he have done with the big 3? We will never know, until another young pitcher comes up to the show. 27/08
Another point to make on this subject is that if the Yanks would have had better (or more Joe Torre trusted) 8th inning reliever in 2001 and 2004 things could have been vastly different. If someone else handles the 8th in Game 7 in ‘01, it’s more likely that Mo dominates the 9th and the Yanks win that World Series. Also, Mo had to come in in the 8th in Game 4 of the ‘04 ALCS and wasn’t as sharp in the 9th. If he comes in during the 9th and is sharp like the 8th, the Yanks win the Series that year.
Thanks for the topic, but the premise of Torre ruining the other guys’ confidence is far from true. I’ve followed this very closely for over 10 years. Michael Kay has tossed that theory out a number of times for something to say etc.–suffice to say it’s not true. Kay has no credibility on this topic anyway. John Sterling and Suzyn
Waldman have seen more of these games than anyone else, every pitch regular and post season, more than broadcasters, media, etc, and I’ve never heard them say anything like that. More often than not Torre fell over himself building these guys up, esp Farnsworth who has serious problems in addition to being a failure in late innings, has numerous physical problems. Ramiro Mendoza was not underrated either. Torre loved him, talked about him all the time–I have tape of Torre doing this. Also, Boston eventually hired him so they must’ve believed he was good. Our bullpen is like that of other teams–a question mark. The reason it looks funny to us is we have a true freak of nature that fits into no one’s preconceived notions of what a so-called closer is in 12 regular seasons and concurrently in 13 post seasons. As Joel
Sherman said, as baseballs went flying out of ballparks in the Bud Selig era, the Yankees had a unique weapon to handle it–Mo Rivera. Some young guys will have to emerge this year
for middle relief.
Thanks to Brian for posting … and while I have a “no editing” policy, I’ll fix those words.
Good Post. John Albaladejo is gonna be a solid piece of this pen, youll see!
The biggest difference between the Joe Torre of 2002-07 and the Torre who won all those championships wasn’t his use of the bullpen. It wasn’t even the presence of Ramiro Mendoza, who is remembered fondly but whose stats weren’t really all that great. Good, but not great.
The big difference is the quality of the rotation. The championship Yanks had a foundation of starting pitchers who could be counted on to go deep into games. They didn’t need more than a couple of reliable bullpen arms, because the starters were routinely going 7 innings or more. Torre’s task was greatly simplified. The Yanks of recent years haven’t had that luxury. And when the bullpen has to go 3 or 4 innings per night, things fall apart sooner or later.
Great Post!!!!
“Kay has no credibility on this topic anyway. John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman have seen more of these games than anyone else, every pitch regular and post season, more than broadcasters, media, etc, and I’ve never heard them say anything like that.”
Hmmm, where to start with this one? I used to love Kay when he was on the radio. He was insightful, sometimes wrong, but had no problem rattling management’s cage and offering up criticism. His presence on YES has been reduced to the polite, respectful youngster who gives way to Singleton’s or any other former player’s opinions.
Point #2: Sterling and Waldman…or anyone, for that matter…are not definitive experts because they attend more games. That would make Tim McCarver a genius. There’s more to it than that. I’ve learned to like John and Suz, and especially respect Waldman for her years of hard work in a man’s world. But they pretty much toe the party line and keep on the good side of Yankee management. So it’s unlikely that you’d hear them say anything like Kay said, even if they believed it in private. Nothing wrong with that, considering who signs their checks, but it’s something to keep in mind, perhaps.
Thanks Brian. Nice job.
Brian,
Interesting topic.
Kind of like, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Depending on where you start or where your bias is, you either blame Torre for the bullpen, or exonerate him because of what he had to work with.
I guess I fall into the second category. If your starting staff can’t get past 6 innings consistently, you have no choice but to “overuse” your bullpen. However, there were times when I shook my head at how soon he took the ball away from some pitchers, both starters and relievers, not letting them pitch out of trouble. But, I suppose when your mandate is to win every day, you do what you have to do.
It certainly will be very interesting to see what Girardi does. But, I don’t envy him because this is setting up to be a situation where every move Girardi makes (or doesn’t make) is going to be compared with what Joe Torre used to do. And memories of fans are quite suspect, so it’ll be fun to observe.
Good work.
I wonder how this is going to play out, because I was sick of seeing Torre pull a starter too early, then have four relievers and Mo finish a game after a four run lead in the sixth.
strange post, you start by saying torre ruined relief pitchers who were succesful elsewhere, then later put it up for debate whether formerly succesful starters’ failings with the yankees were torre’s fault or not. Which is it, is there some magic reason that you can blame him for the relievers but not the starters? or maybe the fact that the starters did poorly belies your original point about the relievers.
Seems to me like every team is having a horrible time getting any relief out of their bullpen and it doesnt seem to matter how the manager handles it. there isnt enough pitching to go around and this shows up most dramatically in middle releif.
Good post. I believe it will provoke a lot of comments which the last several posts have simply not done. Was it the holiday, football or just a lack of interest in the subject matter?
It will be interesting to see how the pitching staff works out under Girardi’s tutelage. Of interest also will be to see how Torre makes out with the Dodgers and their staff.
John M
Point #2: Sterling and Waldman…or anyone, for that matter…are not definitive experts because they attend more games. That would make Tim McCarver a genius.
Love the comment about McCarver. Hate listening to him and his full of himself comments and his supposed insight into the game. That network needs to make a change and soon, please! Retire him and Morgan both from the broadcast booth!!
Jesse -
The sad (sorta) thing about McCarver is that when he first started in the booth he WAS insightful and he was a breath of fresh air, bringing a lot of good information with him. However, over time he got, as you said, full of himself, and it’s hurt him.
I may be wrong but, it seemed to me that both McCarver and Morgan hated the Yanks. They never…or very seldom…said anything nice of the Yanks. Do you think it went back to the days of the “Red Machine”? I dislike their coverage of Yankee games. And please, No More “Perhaps”.
“If someone else handles the 8th in Game 7 in ‘01, it’s more likely that Mo dominates the 9th and the Yanks win that World Series.”
that is some serious tapdancing to avoid blaming Rivera.
Mo is a Hall of Famer.
a Hall of Famer should be able to pitch 2 innings on a full 2 days of rest. he only threw 28 pitches.
Mariano blew the game. i love Mo, but this wasn’t some failure of the front office, or anything else. it was a great pitcher having a bad inning.
he blew the game, and it wasn’t even his pitching. if he makes that throw to 2B, the Yankees win the WS. no need to make excuses.
You forgot Sturtze. Tanyon had become a reliable reliever and had started to believe in himself but the constant usage of him rendered him useless by the end of 06
I think it’s important to note…
A lot of these pitchers were serviceable in ‘lesser’divisions and/or leagues.
You throw a guy into the middle of a pennant race with 19 games against the Sox, 19 against the Orioles(circa late 90’s early 2000’s), etc. – ERA’s are bound to rise a little bit.
We’re not talkin’ 19 games each vs. the Pirates/Brewers, Nationals/Marlins.
One could even contend that the D-Rays team that has been put together (rather promisingly) could be a 2nd or 3rd place surprise in a bunch of divisions – mainly the AL West (with the dismantling of the A’s and general ineptitude of the Rangers), NL Central (Cards?, ‘Stros?).
“Seemingly any pitcher, starter or reliever, would underachieve. So who was at fault? The pressures of New York or Torre?
This in many ways is up to Joe Girardi to decide. How will Girardi handle his pitchers? ”
first of all, i think a manager can mishandle a bullpen, but the pitching coach is much more important in developing the bullpen. in short, the manager is a factor in playing out the cards he’s dealt, but the pitching coach can improve the cards that are dealt. the team reliever era isn’t going to affected by girardi nearly as much as it is going to be affected by dave eiland.
the red sox went from 10th in the league in 2006 to first by far in 2007. i think john farrell was the major reason why. francona, the manager, didn’t get any smarter. farrell, the pitching coach, was the new variable.
here’s an example of what farrel did( from wikepedia):
“During an April 15 rainout in 2007, Red Sox pitching coach John Farrell tweaked Okajima’s changeup delivery. The result was a devastating changeup with screwball motion dubbed the “Okie-Dokie” by bullpen coach Gary Tuck”
farrell also preaches using location of the fastball as a a base for pitching because he believes no hitter can look for both the inside and the outside fastball at the same time. he’s right if you think about it. he pounded this into beckett and the rest of the staff. my point isn’t that farrell’s approach is best, but that a strong pitching coach with a good pitching philosophy and plan can do wonders with a staff.
dave eiland is the one who the yankees are depending on to improve the bullpen, not girardi. now what eiland believes in ,i have no clue. hopefully someone will write a story on him soon that gets into something deeper than that he’s good with young pitchers. that doesn’t tell us much.
Brian, good article, thanks.
randy I.
Nice going, good points. A lot of people wish they knew more about Eiland, maybe someone will post more about him.
jesse-
since it’s two days after martin luther king day and since brian features “fire joe morgan” on his site and since you decided to take a shot at joe morgan( also realize you included mccarver), i’m going to simply point out that it’s my experience that the less actual baseball someone has played the more they dislike joe morgan. you may be an exception to that rule, but i doubt there’s very little you could teach joe morgan about baseball.
Despite his obvious anti-Yankee bias, I used to enjoy listening to Joe Morgan. Unfortunately, it has become clear to me in recent broadcasts that Mr. Morgan is in the very early stages of dementia. It’s that simple. Sad really.
Randy l -
All you say is true, but still the pitchers themselves have to execute. Last year, Beckett and Okajima were able to execute their pitching strategy. I think this year we’ll really be able to judge Farrell’s influence. He will have the same strategy, but will the pitchers still be able to execute consistently? Just a question and something to look for, I think.
Hi Randy,
RE Joe Morgan, it’s not really how much ‘baseball’ he knows, it’s more the fact that he mails in his appearances on Sunday Night Baseball every week. He admits that he doesn’t watch that much baseball, especially smaller market teams, and that he gleans most of his information from the stars (ie Jeter, Ortiz, etc.) that he chats with before the game.
I know that it is a sweet retirement gig for Joe and I appreciate his anecdotes (at least the ones that I haven’t heard multiple times already), but the guy could at least do a little homework before broadcasting a game. As it stands now, Joe is solely a font of cliches (and anecdotes).
And Joe is certainly pro-yankees. Ask any Red Sox fan and they will be quick to tell you what they think of Joe’s Yankee bias (I do enjoy that aspect of his broadcasting).
We are cursed !!!!! Cursed.
I’m not so sure Joe Morgan and others are necessarily anti-Yankees. We Yankee fans are very Yankee-centric and take any criticism from “outside sources” very personally. Plus, remember that most people don’t like the Yankees so national broadcasts are going to reflect that a bit.
Randy l.
No personal disrespect intended to either McCarver or Morgan who have both forgotten more about baseball than I will ever know, but I think most objective viewers that have enjoyed the sport for many years would agree that they are both past their prime.
Brian,
Good post. I like your insight, and the fact that you left it open-ended, especially considering there is no clear cut answer to whether or not Torre was a negative influence on the bullpen. But it is clear that Torre overused almost every good reliever the Yanks had in his time as manager. But how many managers don’t overuse their good relievers? Given Francona’s abuse of Okajima in the playoffs last year, I’ll be shocked if the guy comes anywhere close to being as effective this year. If Girardi can find a nice balance with the pen, he’ll be way ahead of his peers.
Thanks everyone for your responses.
This was actually part of a much longer piece that I had to hack down to 500 words, which is why it may seem a little scattered at points. I didn’t have the time to break down any numbers or really look at the starters who have been huge disappointments. I completely agree that starting pitching dictates the bullpen.
I think the fundamental question I wanted to raise was (and is) why have the Yankees had such difficulty getting players to perform up to their potential (with pitching at least)? I believe some of the blame HAS to fall on Torre / Stottlemyer / Guidry.
And sorry for the spelling mistakes… you would never know I’m an English teacher.
Job well done, Brian.
I would add Nelson and Stanton to the list of Yankee relievers who were pretty reliable during the Torre years, although I’m not entirely sure they would fall into the category of having as much success outside of New York.
I’d have to agree with Doreen as well that how deep those starters go in a game has a big effect on the relief corps. That’s not to suggest that I think Torre’s handling of the pen was undeserving of any criticism. I do think that he could have given certain players a better shot at proving themselves. On the flip sise, I also think there are some players (see: Sean Henn) that he never should have relied on as much as he did. I’m definitely anxious to see how Girardi handles thses things now that he is managing the team.
jesse-
thanks for clearing that up. i agree any of us can get stale when we do something a long time. i get a little testy about morgan because he was beat up so much by the sabermetric community because of his refusal to read moneyball.
brian-
good job on raising the question of improving the bullpen, but you didn’t mention dave eiland. even though the manager and pitching coach have to work together, isn’t it more eiland’s job than girardi’s to shape the pen? and more girardi’s job to make the decision when to use pitchers.
i think eiland’s job is more important or at least equally important because when a pitcher is going well .it’s easy to know when to use him. on the other hand, i can see it can a chicken and egg thing because if a pitcher is used well, it brings out the best in him.
but i still think the pitching coach is more important for pitching than the manager.
Brian,
Great post, I am just glad we can be speaking intelligently about anything other than steroids. What what you ideal bullpen for the Yanks look like given the current roster?
I agree that Jeff Nelson and Mike Stanton were both important pieces for the 1996-2001 Yanks. But something else I found interesting that I had to cut out of my piece:
Look at a guy like Chris Hammond. Most Yankee fans immediately would say “bust.” And I agree. But his 2.86 ERA would say differently (though some of his other numbers don’t look quite as good). By the end of 2003, Torre wouldn’t even use him. But even when Stanton posted an ERA over 5 (1998) he was “trusted.” Do the numbers just not match the reality or is there a problem of perception here?
Also- I am not ignoring Dave Eiland’s importance. I only mentioned Girardi because Eiland is part of his “regime” so to say and I only had so many words. But I agree he will be crucial. I hated the Guidry signing: just because he was a successful Yankee doesn’t mean he knows anything about coaching.
Lastly, I don’t know if I can even come up with an ideal bullpen. The number of possibilities is truly amazing. I’d like to see Bruney get another shot and of course Mo, Farnsworth, and Hawkins will be there. Then you have Veras, Ohlendorf, Albaladejo, Britton, and Ramirez who should all get a shot. Henn, Wright, Igawa could all be the “token lefty.” Melencon (sp?), and Cox should be on the way with Sanchez too maybe. Then they could always convert a starter like Horne into the “joba” role. Thats a ton of names and I know I’m leaving a few guys out.
Yes, an interesting quirk of Torre’s was the “short leash” that he held for anyone who wasn’t one his “his boys.” Hammond was the primary set-up man for more than half the season (and as a soft-tosser, he could easily go two innings when needed). He then gave up back-to-back homers in Fenway on July 27 and was relegated to mop-up duty.
Joe Girardi will make attempts in spring training to get into Farnsworth’s head to make him realize that he has to attack hitters with the nasty stuff he has in his arsenal.
Farnsworth comes in and almost always blows the 1st hitter away then starts toying around with the corners.
If he continues doing it, he could find himself being a late March deal.
JL
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:42 am
You forgot Sturtze. Tanyon had become a reliable reliever and had started to believe in himself but the constant usage of him rendered him useless by the end of 06
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At what time in Tanyon Sturtz’ career was he ever classified as a reliable pitcher, either starter or reliever? He ate up some innings to the tune of a 5.00+ ERA.
GO GIANTS!!!
Come April It’ll be all about the Pinstripes Baby!
I can honestly say no to that last question.
What happened to Mendoza? He was always one of my favorite Yankees. He pitched one inning in ‘05, and then what?