Yankees watch as Santana goes to Mets
-
- January
- 29
The Twins have agreed to trade Johan Santana to the Mets contingent on his agreeing to a contract extention. Minnesota would receive OF Carlos Gomez and RHPs Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.
Santana reportedly pressured the Twins to make up their mind and GM Bill Smith gave teams until Tuesday to make their best offers. My understanding is that the Yankees made no offer at all. It’s unclear whether the Red Sox offered anything beyond their original proposal.
The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.
This is not a trade that can be evaluated now because we have no idea how the prospects will pan out. But at first glance, Minnesota would have been better off with the packages offered by the Red Sox or Yankees back in December at the Winter Meetings.
Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellsbury are MLB ready players.
This deal could determine whether Brian Cashman remains the GM of the Yankees. If Santana becomes the ace of the Mets and leads them into the World Series while the Yankees do another first-round flame-out, Cashman will have a lot of explaining to do to Little Stein.
Me? I’m interested to see what Phil Hughes turns out to be. It would seem the Yankees are indeed serious about developing their own players.
UPDATE, 7:10 p.m.: Minnesota called the Yankees today, hoping to get some sort of offer. Cashman didn’t budge.
Boston reportedly took Jon Lester off the table and was offering a package led by Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie.
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on Tuesday, January 29th, 2008 at 5:46 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Bill Smith is a moron.
Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of either the Yankees or Red Sox.
This can’t be playing well in Minnesota.
Personally, I am glad to see Hughes stay as well. I think it is unfair the bashing Cash is taking from some Yankees fans who are criticizing Cash for not making a deal with the Twins that did not include Hughes…as if Cashman can make the Twins accept an offer.
not the best way for bill smith to start his career as GM. his inexperience made him gunshy at the meetings and today he and his team paid heavily for that indecision. the yanks and the sox packages were far superior to the one they “landed”
“Me? I’m interested to see what Phil Hughes turns out to be. It would seem the Yankees are indeed serious about developing their own players.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself Pete.
The price is always higher for us.
I mean, the Orioles got much more talent for Bedard. Bill Smith should just quit now and save time.
Bill, Bill, Bill….. a bird in the hand….
I am so happy right now, you guys can’t possibly imagine.
Bill Smith blew it big time. He is now offically the laughing stock of all GMs.
Think about it. Smith was demanding Hughes and Kennedy and Melky and a prospect. Instead he gets no MLB ready players, just prospects that might be ready in 2 years to start contributing.
The Twins didn’t get to plug up one single hole in their lineup or rotation with this.
good move for the yanks. keep our kids, and keep him away from Boston. see ya johan, enjoy shea.
This couldn’t have worked out better for NYY fans. JS didn’t go to BeanWorld, we don’t sacrifice any of our future, and if anyone wants to watch JS they can. I’m relieved & hope it works out for Willie.
Stiennbrenner just lol’d
Like it or not…This is great news for the Yankees. Santana is’t going to the Red Sox and the Yanks aren’t overpaying in prospects & $.
Although I would have like to acquire Santana after this season via free agency.
Three months of waiting … for that!
Minny should have kept him in ‘08 and taken the two draft picks.
So does this mean the Yankees are going to go along with Congress and refund us Season Ticket holders that 30% price increase?
Perfect. I didn’t really want Santana at that price, but it would have been revolting to see him go to Boston. The Mets aren’t even that good. They’ve got Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Santana and Maine. Everyone else is old/average. Lets hope Hughes is good because if he’s not, Hanks is going to ship off all of our young talent for the overpriced vets who have haunted the team in recent years.
The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.
Well, it doesn’t sound like the Yankees were out of the mix because the Twins wouldn’t listen to non-Hughes offers. And if that’s the case, I think it’s a mistake. I’m glad the Big 3 are staying but this still hurts!
Any Minny fans in here? Or has anyone visited the Twins blogs?
They were ripping the original Hughes deal saying it wasn’t close to enough. I wonder how they feel now.
for the yankees this is great news. he didn’t go to the sox, cashman asserted himslef and won, and the mets have nothing in the farm now. any pitcher can blow out an elbow and be worthless. the yankees can take 1/10th of the money and overslot for great new prospects.
my guess is that minny didn’t want to face him ever.
Hank expects Hughes and IPK and Joba to experience “growing pains.” I don’t think he’ll ship ‘em out.
Pete — perfect analysis.
If the Twins left:
Hughes/Cabrerra + prospects or
Elsbury/Lester + prospects,
on the table then its GM really messed up.
In all likelihood, I bet nothing close to that was ever offered by either NY or BOS. All media hype during the winter meetings.
MMF
Congrats to Santana.
Thanks to the Yankees for not losing sight of the bigger picture.
Thank goodness this has reached a resolution so we won’t have to hear about the trade “rumors” every day.
Glad to see the yankees didnt pull a knee jerk reaction to not getting a ring this year….frankly i dont see Santana being the difference last year…let alone next year…AND further more im not sure that, w/o the youth and energy injected by Melky (part of the package lets not forget), the Yanks would have made the playoffs last year…im not going to say that Melky is the second coming, but his salary is a lot easier to swallow then any of the free agents out there and Damon isnt the answer to beat the BoSox…
“The Red Sox offered packages centering around lefthander Jon Lester and another centering around outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Infielder Jed Lowrie was believed to be attached to both deals, but it was learned on Tuesday that, in recent weeks, the Twins and Red Sox had changed some of the names in the back end of the deal.”
source: Star Tribune LaVelle III 3 three tres etc..
Sorry, should have read:
Hughes & Cabrerra + prospects or
Lester & Els + prospects
Drive 4-5,
That’s the funny part. They will never lower their prices regardless if payroll goes down.
A lot of people in here seem to think that the Yankees payroll decreasing is a wonderful thing.
And it is, for the fricking Steinbrenners!
Not for any of us.
If the payroll drops to $150 million because of the youth movement the savings will not be fed down to us.
They’ll go to 300 foot statue of George that will be built at the new stadium. He’ll probably be standing next to the giant bat.
Our tickets, parking and concessaions are about to take a massive jump.
That’s why I’m stunned the Yankees got dollar sense about paying Johan. Stunned.
I’d rather them spend for young top talent than not spend and make me pay $40 to park next season.
But that’s just me.
Just makes me laugh how some in here think the Yankees lowering payroll is a great homey warm fuzzy wonderful thing, when the only people it directly benefits are the owners.
Rebecca,
If you think you’re happy, how do you think Phil Hughes must feel right now?
This is definitely a win for Brian Cashman. And I think it’s only fair to give Hank credit for not caving into public pressure to do something big after a very difficult offseason. His dad would have pulled the trigger on this deal. For all of our sake, let’s hope it turns out to be a good decision by Hank & Cashman.
It also says the Yankees never even made an offer. Wow. They NEVER even made an offer when the Twins set the deadline. What happened when Steinbrenner said that “The Twins will call us before they make a deal”. Did he call you Hank? Please tell us?
I’d feel better if we at least offered something and the Twins decided against it. However, to not even offer anything.. well that to me says the Yankees were playing hardball and didn’t get that phone call that Hank thought they would.
I am calmer now, forgive me for being overly-excited earlier. I still stick to my beliefs.
Are weakness is still Pitching. With or without the kids. Just not as weak. If they had the innings on their arm to contribute all season, I would feel more optimistic.
With all that said.
Bill Smith is not cut out to be a major league GM. He should be laughed at and rightly so.
“The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.
Well, it doesn’t sound like the Yankees were out of the mix because the Twins wouldn’t listen to non-Hughes offers. And if that’s the case, I think it’s a mistake. I’m glad the Big 3 are staying but this still hurts!”
That’s pete’s interpretation.
Heyman said:
“Meanwhile, the Yankees have told the Twins that they will now no longer include young pitcher Phil Hughes in any deal and appear to be just about out of the running now, if not completely out.”
So…do with that what you will.
CC Sabathia = no prospects and only $$ at the end of 08.
We keep our chips and can still add the LH ace.
Attention psychos:
I just deleted two posts. One compared the trade to rape, the other to anal sex. Can you please find some other way to express your thoughts? I don’t think that’s asking too much.
This isn’t Masterpiece Theater I’m running but we can try to have a little class.
thanks
Minnesota’s take on this:
http://nc.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=320#comments
Many on Minnesota’s blog sound apoplectic. I would if I were a Twins fan. Why now for no one ready to play for today?
Let’s go Three Musketeers!
does anyone feel that this puts added pressure on Phil Hughes to excel?
He knows he originally was the centerpiece of a Santana deal…
Any person who signs CC Sabathia long term should check their brain out at the door.
The guy is a ticking time bomb who is eating himself out of the league in his late 20’s.
another Hispanic player on the Mets, what else is new?
“If they had the innings on their arm to contribute all season, I would feel more optimistic.”
You make it sound like they’ll each be around for 10 starts. That’s just not true. Phil can start about 25 games and hit his cap. Joba can start 20 and get his other 30 innings in the pen. Ian can start 30.
It’s almost like the Mets were rewarded for having the weakest farm system of the three teams involved in Santana talks. Because they didn’t have the MLB-ready big prospect, they got away with sending an inferior package.
“The guy is a ticking time bomb who is eating himself out of the league in his late 20’s.”
Like David Wells?
It’s pretty rich to say the reigning cy young winner is eating himself out of the league.
G Love,
I couldn’t agree with you more! I think those of us who spend a lot of hard earned cash to attend games have a different perspective on the Yankee’s payroll. For top price, we want to see the best team possible.
That’s not to say that the Yankees best team couldn’t be one with Hughes & Kennedy. As long as the Yankees are investing our money into the farm system and augmenting those youngsters with established players, I’m fine.
I just don’t EVER want to hear about the Yankees cutting payroll just for the sake of saving money. You and I are going to pay the same high prices, regardless.
Twins got robbed……… But they had it coming, toying with teams for over 2 months…..Greedy, and they paid for it…….
Except Wells was not a power pitcher. It’s a big difference.
Name me the last severely overweight power pitcher who had a long injury free career.
CC will be shell of himself w/in 3 years.
He’s probably one of the worst long term pitching investments in baseball.
Eh, prices go up as long as they know tickets will still be sold
After all, from the seller’s side, if you can raise the price but still sell the same amount anyway, you have no reason not to raise the price
whozat,
I believe it is common practice around MLB that you do NOT want to add more than 30 innings a year on young arms, so with what you just said, that would common practice would be out the window.
Even if they are allowed to throw more than 30 innings over the most each have thrown, will they have the stamina? I doubt it. So I stick to what I said.
Whether or not the Mets make it to the World Series will not effect Brian Cashman’s status with the Yankees. The development of the young arms and the Yankees’ playoff performance will.
Johan will be able to dominate the NL East far mroe easily than the AL East. The Mets are immediately the favorite to represent the NL in the World Series. Getting Johan would not have done that for the Yankees.
whozat
True, we don’t know the whole story. If the Twins indeed wouldn’t budge from Hughes, then I really can’t blame the Yankees. I do find it hard to believe, but is is a possibility. But if it was about the money, I’ll be disappointed. There are other ways to trim back on payroll that could have made getting Sanatana more reasonable from a financial standpoint.
Yeah Drive,
I’m not advocating making bad deals here. The Yanks could beat the Mets deal easily without including Hughes.
I just think that if Pete’s right and the dollar amount scared the Yankees off, then that is just wrong.
I’m paying through the nose for everything.
If all the young kids pan out and the payroll drops 50 million in a few years, I don’t think for a minute that any savings is going to be passed onto the consumer.
Johan was under 30 and an elite player, something we rarely have a crack at.
I’m sad we didn’t get him since I think we have enough depth to make the trade on paper.
If we made no other offer after pulling out at the winter meetings, that’s a hard pill to swallow when we clearly could use a pitcher like Johan on this team.
mets came out great on this. twins look desperate. yanks and sox save the cash and kids.
Rotoworlds Take:
“Gomez and Guerra are big-time talents, but Gomez lacks plate discipline and might not fit in the top half of the lineup and an awful lot could go wrong before Guerra even sniffs the majors. Mulvey and Humber are third starters at best and probably more like fourths. It’s a whole lot better than losing Santana for draft picks next winter, but we’d have taken a Phil Hughes or Jacoby Ellsbury package over this.”
Cashman’s gone after this season regardless of what Santana does.
“According to SI’s Jon Heyman, people familiar with the Mets thinking say they’d like to keep it to a five-year contract while Santana is believed to be seeking a deal for six or seven years…. Heyman also adds that the teams discussed possibly substituting reliever Jorge Sosa for Philip Humber in recent days, so Twins fans at least have a little something for which to be thankful.”
LMAO!!!!!!!
I remember talking to Twins fans and how they would never settle for anything other than Hughes, Melky, and atleast Kennedy or Jackson and Lester, Ellsbury, and Lowrie.
I hope they are happy right now. I hope they stay away from sharp objects. I wonder how long Bill Smith stays the GM…………he might as well just resign now, and live in a cave.
” If the Twins indeed wouldn’t budge from Hughes, then I really can’t blame the Yankees. I do find it hard to believe, but is is a possibility.”
The Twins set a “best offer” deadline today.. the Yankees didn’t even make an offer!
Redsox changed theirs.. (To what I dunno)
The Mets, we know.
Wow, Bill Smith has to be chewing his nails right now. I guess his Twins fans are just as shameless and will accept what he just did. It for sure was a fleecing.
gargoyle -
not necessarily… if Cashman really wanted to keep the young guns, he obviously believes in them and might want to stick around to reap the benefits.
G Love,
What do you say we go grab a $9 Beck’s at Beers of the World? It’s on me!lol
So with everyone in a frenzy over this deal, the only source so far is USA Today, since everyone else is quiet..
Maybe I am thinking like a criminal here, but could this be a ploy? That the Twins never even accepted the Mets deal? Or is it typical for everyone to say “No Comment” even though someone obviously broke the story.. to USA Today of all places!
JAke,
from what i read on a Twins blog, they are in denial and making themselves feel better by saying “who knew Liriano and Nathan would be this good”. they have a point, but they only risked losing Pierzynski on that deal. they just lost the best pitcher in baseball for the rights to roll the dice on some marginal prospects.
Fleas,
FWIW, Fox and SI have also confirmed.
“I believe it is common practice around MLB that you do NOT want to add more than 30 innings a year on young arms, so with what you just said, that would common practice would be out the window.”
Nope.
Phil had 146 innings in 2006, which dropped last year because of injury. So, let’s say a conservative estimate of 150 innings. And let’s say he averages 6 IP per start. He’ll go deeper sometimes and get blown out early other times. 150/6 = 25. 25 starts. Joba had around 120, so that’s 150 again. Ian had 150 already, so he can go up to around 180.
So…my numbers are just fine.
whozat,
i believe the innings cap includes playoffs as well. i’ll need to check on that.
“Except Wells was not a power pitcher. It’s a big difference.
Name me the last severely overweight power pitcher who had a long injury free career.”
Since when does having a big belly make it worse to be a power pitcher than to be a finesse guy?
He’s not obese. He’s just big.
I don’t get why the Twins would want to make this deal over a deal with the Yanks. Kennedy, Melky, Horne, and a a prospect is much better than this offer. If the Twins refused to consider any trades that didn’t include Hughes, than that is a mistake.
I’m ok. with the Yanks not getting Santana as long as they made an offer with Kennedy and others. If they didn’t bother to make an offer at all, than I have a problem with that.
There will be massive pressure on Hughes if Santana is pitching in the same media market. You know that people are going to hold their stats side by side every month to evaluate whether the Yanks should have made the trade. It’s totally unfair, but it’s going to happen.
“i believe the innings cap includes playoffs as well. i’ll need to check on that.”
So hughes cranks out 4 extra starts and Joba continues in the pen. Woo! Given that Phil threw almost 150 innings two years ago, I feel like pushing him to 170 this year probably isn’t that big a deal.
“I’m ok. with the Yanks not getting Santana as long as they made an offer with Kennedy and others. If they didn’t bother to make an offer at all, than I have a problem with that.”
If the Twins told them three days ago that they’d only listen to offers that started with “Hughes and”, are you still upset if they didn’t put in an offer yesterday?
Where’s that guy Matt from Minnesota that came in here prior to the winter meetings? Bet he’d like our “rubbish” now.
whozat, there is a way too many “what-ifs” to my liking there.
I guess we can always use Igawa.
whozat,
cant find out about the playoff innings counting, but i think they do.
but more importantly, (at least in the “30 rule”), minor league innings DO NOT count as major league innings. based on Will Carroll’s post a couple weeks back, there is no real formula for minor league innings… but they basically count for less than major league innings. so its not as simple as adding 30 to their MiLB pls MLB totals.
Great job by the mets terrible job by the Twins. But since the twins knew they wouldn’t resign johan the deal had to be done
lol mel,
I dont think there will be many Matt sightings in the near future.
Just because we refused to give up hughes doesn’t mean we should have yielded other top prospects. What if they wanted Tabata and Jackson as recompense? Or Heredia or Melancon? In which case, they needed to be told to **** off.
One effect this non-trade may have on the Yankees in the future…..
We will not be bullied to give up more than everybody else.
I bet the Twins thought the Yankees would do ‘whatever it takes’ to get Santana and overpay for him. This non-trade sends a message to the rest of the league and may just change the league and publics’ perception of the Yanks.
It may have some long-term benefits that we’ll never be able to measure…
my guess is that minny never wanted to send him to the al. let the mets overpay for 7 years
Santana is gone, Be happy people!
We keep our kids and hopefully, take pride in the fact that we will see them mature into big time pitchers. We can still win without Santana. Just think; we trade (Pitching only) Phil, IPK, Horne…get Santana. Santana give us 20 wins, we all say, “I’ll take that”. Where do you get the wins that two pitchers would’ve given us (possible Three)? Oh, I see we bring up more from the farm, right? Wrong…they all are a step behind these guys you are giving up, so again where do you get the wins? Chances are Phil and IPK will give us 20/30 wins. Add in (Maybe) Horne…because most teams use at least 7/8 pitchers a year…you get another 6/8 wins. Those extra 4/8 wins could put us in the POs. All this is supposition and hope, but it looks nice on paper. Besides, I didn’t want this trade anyhow. Can you tell? 27/08
Just wanted to throw something into the innings question w/r/t Hughes and Joba. There has been documentation, by Heyman or Rosenthal, I can’t remember, that the innings increase of +30 per year is helpful only when considering ML innings. IOW, minor league innings don’t necessarily translate to major league innings, as far as the correlation of large innings increases and injuries are concerned. If anyone wants to back me up on that with a link, that would be fantastic.
Regarding CC: I remember reading an article(wish I could find it) that stated that fat guys pitch longer. Just thought I’d throw that out there. And Bill Smith is an idiot.
Ah, Boston Dave beat me to it. Although Carroll was citing someone else too, correct?
Imagine if Johan doesn’t sign the extention now after all this.
I doubt it though.
I don’t see where this is going to propel the Mets into the World Series though. The team fell apart last season, the only real upgrade they have done is 1 SP. How is that going to make that large a difference? While Santana is a great pitcher, he still will need the rest of the team to play.
Smith blew it big time. There is no excuse for blowing it this big.
The Yankees sit back and let everything unfold again.The Yankees have made several mistakes over the last few years and cashman’s strategies are not working.
Pete: I agree- Phil’s upside is much more intriguing than having Santana, IMO.
I would have included Hughes in a trade but I am not enraged over this. Hughes showed enough last year to justify keeping him, although Clueless Joe put in Offenhauser (sic) first instead of Phil Franchise in Game 1. But that is Clueless Joe for you..the guy who last year Cashman went to bat to keep yet in August found it necessary to institute The Joba Rules.
Boston Dave,
Totally, totally agreed. Cashman’s got the asylum under control. Santana would’ve been a nice to have, but Cashman really deserves the chance to see if his plan will pay off. Look at the teams overpaying with talent. Ironically, the steal of the offseason was the crown jewel from Minnesota. Go figure.
frits:
Carroll cited Tom Verducci of SI:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/11/28/pitchers/index.html
Carroll’s post on this blog is available if you go back a week or two. very interesting stuff…
I was over at the Twins blog & Twins fans are not too happy with the trade, but they are thrilled the Yankees & Red Sox didn’t get Johan. Most of them really wanted Hughes but couldn’t believe he was not being offered even as last as today.
Guys, please.
We will always own the Mets - Santana or not.
Him going to the Mets doesn’t affect us unless we meet them in the playoffs or the very few games we play against them during the season.
We didn’t want him - the Twins were asking more from us than they asked from the Mets, we just contributed a lot of money to A-Rod who contributes EVERY day, and I think Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy are awesome and not worth giving up.
Good for the Yankees to keep him from going to Boston, good for the Mets who bought themselves a postseason appearance or two… but give me Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy any day over Perez, Old Duque, and Pelfrey. And you mix Pettitte against the weak throwing Pedro, Wang on a good day against Santana’s numbers against the good AL East teams and you got a wash.
sorry, meant to say *and Maine
Whew !!!! …. the pressure is off. Now Hank can tell Cashman to get Damaso Marte or whoever he thinks it will take to get it done. It’s about the same as adding Santana money to the contracts coming off the books from Giambi, Mussina, and Farnsworth.
I don’t understand the money being a problem.Makes no sense with SAntana only getting $13 million this year and over $60 million being lost next year.And with HGH Pettitte leaving.
Phil Hughes is saved!
Good for the Mets.
Do the twins know what they are doing?
McLovin,
Who’s this HGH you keep referring to?
I can’t believe the trade that Minnesota ended up making - no major league ready players.
I hope that the Yankees are rewarded with great pitching for years to come for all of the faith that is being put in the young arms.
As a fan, I feel ambivalent. It would be hard to not like a trade that would bring in a 2 time Cy Young winning lefty ace still in his 20s. However, I also love the idea of watching Hughes and Joba and other youth develop into potential stars.
Taking off my fan cap though, I think its a trade Cashman should have made. Its really hard to guess what Hughes will develop into and none of the other three would have been big losses. Not making the trade is a huge risk. If Hughes doesn’t develop into an ace, they will be kicking themselves because young elite pitchers very rarely come on the market. And when they do, you still have to hope you have the best package.
At least he’s not in Boston.
McLovin,
there is quite a bit that you don’t McUnderstand
McLovin - have some faith in our young guys… Ian Kennedy is projected to be a Mussina and pitched well at the end of last season, Phil Hughes almost pitched a perfect game before injury, and Joba throws 100 with a plus secondary pitch and pinpoint accuracy.
“Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of either the Yankees or Red Sox.”
If Gammons is correct, the Twins should have asked the Yanks for prospects #s 8, 9, 10 and 11 and would have been better off if we’d agreed. I guess Bill Smith preferred a headline reading “4 of the Mets’ top 7 prospects. If we could have landed Santana without trading Cano, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Jackson, Horne and Tabeta, I’d be strongly in favor. But… water under the bridge.
Bottom line: I’m happy the Yanks didn’t overpay and are giving the kids a chance. And congrats to the Mets (it’s a great deal for them).
If Hughes doesn’t develop into an ace, they will be kicking themselves because young elite pitchers very rarely come on the market.
They would have given up a future potential ace, our starting center fielder and 2 plus arms in the penn. The only way this doesn’t work for the Yankees is if Hughes bombs - I don’t see that happening.
Bill,
problem is we don’t know what the Twins were really asking for. Rumor was the Twins wanted Hughes AND Kennedy.
one thing that bothers me is that there is essentially a consensus that Santana going to Boston would have been a disaster. yet, a majority of fans didnt want to give up Hughes for him. If Boston adding Santana was enough to instill panic… isnt getting Santana on the Yanks worth the cost of Hughes?
Boston fans WANTED to trade the Lester package for Santana and they would also have been quite bothered if the Yanks got him for a Hughes package.
Who knows what will happen… but it doesnt add up to me that Boston minus Lester but w/ Santana = disaster but Yankees minus Hughes w/ Santana also = bad.
Pete — I suspect that your point that Santana would have cost too much in terms of players AND money combined is what turned the Yanks off. The big difference between Santana and Bedard is that Santana is a free agent after 2008 and can negotiate on that basis and Bedard is under contract for several more years. So to extend Bedard costs in the neighborhood of the Cano deal while Santana costs telephone numbers. Therefore bedard costs more in terms of players/prospects.
I think the Yanks did a great job of calling Minny’s (and Boston’s) bluff. To those who say we should have traded any package including Hughes, would they trade Hughes alone for the package the Mets gave up? I’d say that package would be roughly the equivalent of Jackson/Tabata plus Betances plus Horne/Marquez plus Karstens — two very strong prospects with a long way to go plus two lesser prospects closer to the bigs. Hughes is AT the Major League level right now and has unusual command, so he’s made it past most of the risks for young pitchers. And Kennedy is not far behind.
I’m pretty confident that Hughes will work out just fine. He’s now had the offseason to recover from his injuries and will be working with Eiland, and I suspect it’s no coincidence that his pitching got alot better when Eiland joined the club. Now it’s will he stay healthy and will he be a solid 15-17 wins guy or develop into an absolute ace? With Kennedy, too, he’s dominated the minors, so the only question for him is if his stuff (made more effective by his commnad) will cut it in the bigs.
Let’s also remember that the Yank ownership needs to make money on top of all of the salaries and that the $25 per we aren’t paying Santana may be useful instead to make a big play for a superstar 1Bman or OF.
The beauty of this trade for the Mets is they own 3 of the top 34 picks in the amateur draft this year.
They get the Braves #1 and a sandwich pick as well for Glavine going back to ATL. Those 2 picks plus their own #1 gives them a nice leg up on restocking the farm.
They may have traded 4 of their better minor leaguers, but they’ll quickly be replaced and they have Johan to front their rotation.
Omar must be dancing on Queens Blvd. as we speak.
G Love -
excellent point. as we know, most 1st rd picks never do much but it helps to have 3 of them.
I wonder how much he will be dancing if Santana goes down with an injury.
Another hold up to the Bedard deal is Adam Jones may have a degenerative hip.
This is best news all off-season, besides A-Rod resigning
re-signing, not resigning
With taxes the deal could’ve approached $200 million, for which you’re guaranteed nothing. It’s not like dealing for a position player–pitchers are fragile. Barry Zito was supposed to be good and what happened to him? You cannot make the deal.
For the wealthy or perhaps fans of other teams who say they’ll pay anything for a ticket, that’s fine. You don’t understand the average Yankee fan cannot afford to go to a game either alone or with his family. The cost of fuel getting there, parking, a soda and peanuts, becomes prohibitive. Fans pay in other ways, through cable bills, etc. “Saving money” isn’t really the question. Stupidity is, when you”re paying $100 million a year–again the fans’ money–to other teams in the form of revenue sharing. Our players don’t belong to the Twins–I got the idea they felt entitled to them. With the media saying 24/7 that the Yankees absolutely had to get Santana, tell Hank, blah blah, everyone in the world had their paws on our players. To me that’s the best part–they’re back to being our players at least for the moment.
Boston Dave,
No we don’t know what the twins asked for but at least the going spin is that the yankees decided to take Hughes off the table and dropped out. The last rumored request I’d heard was Hughes, Melky, Marquez and someone else who I’m forgetting. I am assuming that package would beatwhat the mets offered, and that the Yankees didn’t make a trade not because the Twins prefered the Mets offer but because the Yankees pulled Hughes from the offer. This is speculation of course but I think its fairly reasonable if one can trust what one reads.
You can say that the yankees would be over paying relative to other offers at that price but the bottom line is whether you’d do the deal or not. I’d do it. I also get annoyed by all the comparisons of Kennedy to Mussina. Its neither accurate or fair to either. Both have pinpoint control but that’s where the comparison begins and ends. Maybe people forget how great Mussina’s stuff was in his prime, but I don’t think anyone is projecting Kennedy to be that good. Hell, Hughes will be very lucky if he has the career Mussina has had.
The Mets aren’t the best at drafting players. It seems they do better with the international free agent signings than anything, but 3 of the top 34 picks are still 3 chances to replenish what they just gave up.
You give the Yanks 3 of the 34 picks in the draft and we end up with Joba, IPK and Hughes again they way our scouting group has been nailing it lately.
It’s a great deal for the Mets.
As for the money end, Pedro, Delgado, El Duque and Alou come off the books next season. They’ll be able to afford Johan and some other quality free agents (i.e. Texeira, Nathan).
They’ve already got Wright and Reyes locked up long term.
I think Johan, Pedro, Maine, Oliver Perez and El Duque/Pelfrey is a pretty good rotation.
Won’t make me become a Met fan or anything, but they did really well for themselves here.
Susan,
I respectively disagree that “you simply cannot make this deal” based on the money alone. I do agree it would not have been a very lucrative deal in terms of the money. There was a good article that Pete posted that went over the #s and the Yankees projected to either lose a little money or make a little money on the deal. The Sox, on the other hand, would almost certainly have lost $$.
The fact that Barry Zito got a big deal and doesn’t appear to be worth the $$ isnt that relevant. I think most teams realized Zito wasn’t a top starter anymore… Sabean wasnt one of htem apparently. Santana is widely regarded as the BEST pitcher in baseball.
He could be a bust, yes. But if you are a team that is going to take risks, Santana seems like a good one. Winning teams take risks. So, its certainly valid to not want to pay that kind of money and commitment… but its also just as valid to argue in favor of the deal. Fortunately, the Yankees appear to be in good shape either way.
Seems that the Theo earned his money this year. He was able to do a slight of hand with Minnesota and distract them from the best offer (Yankees) and dangle a few lesser prospects under his nose until he dissed Cashman and then pulled away.
Smith ends up with a bag of garbage from the Mets for their best starter in a division where they needed good starters to compete. Minnesota won’t be a problem for the Tigers and Tribe for a few years.
Bill,
I think the rumored 4th player was Mitch Hilligoss, but I also heard that that rumor was untrue. We may never know, but it’s possible the Twins never backed off of their demand for both Hughes and IPK. I think if the Yankees had thrown that Hughes offer at the Twins this afternoon, they may have taken it… but the Yanks were apparently done with dealing with the Twins.
I agree on the Mussina comparisons. They are premature. If Kennedy is close to as good as Moose was over the course of his career, the Yanks will be in pretty good shape. Mussina isn’t that far off from a HOF career.
NH Mike,
The Yanks didnt even make an offer today (allegedly). IF the Yanks really wanted Santana, there is nothing Theo could have done about it (short of offering both LEster and Ellsbury). The Yanks chose to keep Hughes and not spend $125M+.
Nobody knows how any prospect will turn out. Did Smith out wait himself? Who cares.
Better Santana a Met than on the Red Sox. Yankees can handle him, but he’d have added too many wins to those aholes. AND that would’ve been baaaaaaaaaaaaad.
NH Mike,
p.s. I believe its “sleight of hand”
I hope Cashman gets fired for this. He was hoping that Johan would make it to FA and now that he hasnt we will go another 10 years without an ace.
Juke,
what makes you think the Yanks “can handle him”?
they haven’t really handled him in the past. I’m just playing devil’s advocate but I wouldn’t be so confident.
Steve,
are you a serious or are you a Sox fan?
Cashman is a joke. All these years the Yankees over pay for players ex. RANDY JOHNSON and now the best pitcher in baseball is available and they dont want to trade the prospects and they dont have the money. Has everyone been watching the Yankees the last few years? They cant get out of the first round, they have the same team as last year and there number one pitcher (Wang) lost both starts to the Indians in the playoffs. I could see not trading hughes for anyone else but not the best pitcher in baseball who is only 28 years old!! Hey if the rookies dont pan out you always have Igawa you moron Cashman!!
The Red Sox own the Yankees–yeah, right. Go back under the bridge, troll.
Johan still has to sign…an interesting decision. Mets are OK, but not great, in a weak division. Does Johan hold out and wait until 09? He would get more $$$$ from the Yankees if he remains healthy.
He’s not going to the Sox, as far as we know. Any chance the Mets turn this around and trade him?
If Cashman leaves (or gets fired as some of you wish), someone else will enjoy the fruits of his labors.
Cashman didn’t make any offer whatever, even one without Hughes? Then he’s more of a smug fool than I thought.
Peter,
I disagree. Cashman will be assessed on how well Hughes pitches, not on how well Santana pitches.
The Yankees didn’t BLINK! Neither did the Red Sox! This was intriguing and I believe a bit historic. It is hard to say what is the right call for either club now, but we will know over the next 2 to 3 years.
I believe Santana is about shot. He looked like he hit a wall at end of last year and I’m sure there are some clubs a bit leary. Also, the AL Central Division is not as strong (Last Year) as the AL East, so ERA & Wins can be a bit skewed.
I guess I’m sounding like a NYY homer, but in reallity anyone can get hurt and a career could be shot. I think Johan is injured now. I also think if the kids stay healthy they are can’t miss. So ultimately I’m glad the Yanks stayed pat on the kids. I surely like the rest of you will wonder how things might have been if Johan wore pinstripes.
I really wish the Yanks had Kazmir more than any other LH SP. So who knows, maybe he unfolds in their laps later along with the kids.
Johan is the best pitcher now and he may get the Mets to the playoffs for the next couple years, but Phil, Joba and Ian have entire careers ahead of them.
I am extremely glad Cash is willing to take the chance.
Pittsburgh Yankee Fan,
No chance the Mets trade him if he waives his no trade clause for this. Isn’t his no-trade reinstated regardless of whether he accepts this trade?
Why would the Mets give up 4 guys to trade him away when a Starting Pitcher is precisely what they need…let alone an Ace?
I am just glad he isn’t in the AL anymore, let alone Boston.
Pittsburgh,
I don’t think Santana holds out. He’ll get more than $20M, but less than $25M. I truly believe that if he had reached free agency, he would’ve gotten at least $25M.
Santana’s also a pretty good hitter. He may enjoy being in the lineup. But if he approaches it seriously, that increases risk of injury.
It’s so good to see Peter Gammons and his yellow stumps for another season on ESPN.
I know this is off topic, but i just wanted to thank everyone for their support today. I hope I can come back and write next year.
Glad we still got Hughes and the rest of the trio. It’s well worth it from what I’ve seen in Scranton.
And by the way, I would like to be the first person to insist that Johan Santana will get injured this coming season. That wear and tear showed at the end of last season and the Mets will reap what the have sewn. In this sense, Bill Smith might have gotten away with something.
They are retarded if they sign him to a 7 year, $140 million contract. Crazy business.
This is a long way from being over. Santana still has to take a physical, and he has to agree to an extenstion. My guess the earliest it will be done would be Friday.
If that’s true and the Yankees didn’t even make an IPK, Melky 2 prospects type offer today, then Cashman and the Yankees did a bad job in my opinion.
They shouldn’t have considered trading Hughes at this point, but to not even make their best “B” offer and let him go to the Mets for that seems very lame.
Ray,
a) Santana is not shot
b) be careful saying Joba, Phil, and Ian are all “can’t miss”. Can’t miss what? It’s unlikely that all 3 will be superstars. I hope they are, but its way too early to call them can’t miss. They are certainly enough to be excited though
I wouldn’t call Cashman a “fool,” Schill, but I won’t quibble with the charge of “smugness”.
Santana would prob get $25M per in FA. But I can’t see him not taking the financial security of a guaranteed contract for $125M+ to play in NY for a contender.
Unless he fails the physical, consider this a done deal.
“If that’s true and the Yankees didn’t even make an IPK, Melky 2 prospects type offer today, then Cashman and the Yankees did a bad job in my opinion.”
I repeat…
If the Twins said two days ago that Hughes had to be in any offer, what would have been the point of making a Kennedy-based offer today?
This is a save face for the Twins in that they didn’t sell out to the big bad Yanks or Red Sox. This is a win for the Yanks & Red Sox in that the other team didn’t get Johan. As i stated above, I believe Johan is injured. This could really look sour for the Mets if they tie up $140M on an injured SP. It could look like a steal if Johan is healthy as well.
The Yanks always intrigue me on SP who give them trouble & ones that don’t. Same with the Red Sox. Santana is a great SP, but he wouldn’t have been as good in Fenway but might have been better in Yankee Stadium. Who knows?
I know it’s weird, but isn’t it interesting that the Twins called the Yankees one last time…kind of tells you what Johan is thinking.
Cashman refused to make an offer. Also very interesting. Not even a bunch of minor leaguers? The Yankees could have matched the Mets, and exceeded them, without Hughes, and I bet without IPK. Maybe Cash did not want to get the Sox involved. Or, maybe this is the thinking…
(1) Santana wants to play for the Yankees, on the left hander’s dream field.
(2) Bill Smith says (under pressure): “NY, I’ll give you NY!”
(3) There is a slight chance that Santana rejects the Mets offer, making Smith look good, and then signs with the Yankees as a free agent in 09. Everyone looks good, except the Mets.
(4) Money is not the issue here. It never was.
Thats bull.No wonder Cashman can’t get good freeagents.Ian Kennedy,Melky,Marquez and cheap prospect would have gotten it done.That keep Santana out of the A.L. is BS.Oppenheimer is responsible for these great young stars.CAshman drop the ball.WAng,Hughes,HGH Pettitte,JOba,SAntana is now a gone.Hope Brian is fired.
This is pretty funny, I read somewhere that the Mets gave up 3 of their top 7 propsects (something like that). I guess it is all in perspective. They have a crappy farm system by Yankee standards now. I guess you could say 4 years ago when we got Aaron Boone, Brandon Clausen was probably in our top 10 in the farm. Also when we got Randy, Brad Halsey, was also in the top 10. How times have changed!
I am dead serious about Cashman and I am a huge Yankees fan. I have been stating this for years now. Cashman refuses to pony up the dough because he wants to be recognized as a the guy who built the Yanks from within rather than the guy who bought World Series’s. Sadly, he has allowed big name after big name to get by us (Beltran, Guerrero for example) and the players we do get are usually the work of Steinbrenner and not him. I doubt Cashman would have even gone all out to sign Santana had he made it to FA but I would like to believe that he realized that because of revenue sharing, the Yankees dont get much chance anymore to acquire an ace through Free Agency, and had Johan made it, he would have made an exception to his penny pinching ways. But now we have no shot to get that ace we have been desperate for, instead we have to hope that one of our “cant miss prospects” becomes special.
whozat
Maybe the Twins were holding out two days ago when they said they needed Hughes in the offer. Posturing. Perhaps if the Yankees had made a fair offer without Hughes the Twins might have relented at the last minute, realizing the Yankee deal was better than the Mets.
That’s why you make the offer and let the Twins say no if that’s what it comes to.
This was the best possible outcome for our team.Santana is a GREAT pitcher but to give up Phil Hughes for him plus 150 million is way too much.The thing that will be interesting to me is how Girardi/Cach/Eiland handle the 3 amigos and their projected innings.I think IPK is ok for over 200 but the others need to be limited.
Ray,
IF Johan is injured, he will fail his physical.
PittsburghYankFan, money is ALWAYS at least one of the issues. and whozat is correct in saying that if the Twins insisted on Hughes throughout, there isnt much point in making a weak offer. we have no idea what really went down though.
Steve,
The Yankee brass wanted Guerrero. George Steinbrenner insisted on signing Sheffield instead. He negotiated the contract himself.
Steinbrenner also said Cashman could have the money for Johnson or Beltran, not both. Cash choose to spend the money on the pitcher, and I can’t blame him for it even if it didn’t work out that great.
Joeysdadjoe,
the best possible outcome? really?
you wouldnt trade Hughes for Santana straight up?
YankeeJosh,
good point… and Beltran would have been for many years whereas Johnson was only two years (if i remember correctly) and coming off a Cy Young worthy season.
Ray: I’m curious, what’s your basis for saying Santana is injured?
My position:
I think not going hard after Santana was a mistake, and letting the money dictate into it was a mistake the Yankees will regret.
However, I’m not going to call for Cashman’s head over it. He’s still done a very good job with this team, and didn’t overpay for Santana.
Pete,
if your update is accurate… I find that VERY interesting that the Sox actually would have preferred to give up Ellsbury rather than Lester. Maybe the Sox feel Ellsbury is the ideal “sell-high” candidate.
Rebecca,
some speculated Santana was injured at the end of the season and he wasnt throwing his slider…
its possible, but there is no hard, public evidence for it. and he would surely fail the physical if thats the case.
look at Guiliani - 16% hehe
“Maybe the Twins were holding out two days ago when they said they needed Hughes in the offer. Posturing. Perhaps if the Yankees had made a fair offer without Hughes the Twins might have relented at the last minute, realizing the Yankee deal was better than the Mets.
That’s why you make the offer and let the Twins say no if that’s what it comes to.”
Dude, we have no idea how things went down. Maybe they called and he said “Do I have to give you Hughes?” and they said “Yes,” and then he hung up. Or, maybe Smith called and Cash cursed him out. We don’t know, and it’s pointless to make assumptions and then get all mad about what we assume happened.
But that’s not going to stop people from pissing and moaning about Cashman making the right decision.
To Bad Johnson was a 40 year old N.L. pitcher.The Yankees never learn there problem after Kevin Brown and again with Roger Clemens.But Hey BRian though Roger was worth $28 million.But Hey Santana isn’t worth $130 million.
Boston Dave
I understand about the can’t miss terminology. I suffixed it with if they remain healthy, I believe they are can’t missers. LOL!
I have seen quite a few can’t miss prospects over the years, and yes some missed. There is a hedge to that though, and it is they usually got injured from their own Team’s overuse. David Clyde, Big Byrd in Detroit, etc. But there comes a small number of prospects that walk the walk and produce.
Strawberry was a can’t miss & so was Jeter. Tom Seaver was as well. These guys had an elite status coming from their Drafts & have the swing, motions, skills & refined ability to start including baseball intelligence. The Yanks are fortunate to have 2 legitimate number ones in Joba & Hughes. Ian is possibly as well and even reminds me of Mussina when he came up as a can’t miss along with big Ben McDonald. Well McDonald got hurt & never was the same again. One might say the same about Prior & Woods, but I blame their injuries on the Cubs.
Phil & Joba are special and everyone knows it. Ian is very very good, but not elite and who knows he might end up being the best of the bunch. All are composed, and have high ceilings. Two number 1 starters to go along with Wang, and another number two starter in Ian. That sounds very good to me. Plus the cubbard is not bare in AAA & AA for more quality SP’s as well.
The so-called limited innings issue with Hughes, Joba or IPK can be dealt with easier than made out to be with the help of good talent at AAA at specified times of the season.
Looks like some people here still think Cashman can magically make Bill Smith deal Santana to the AL East
Remember, the Red Sox could (and have before, like the Yanks) easily have trumped the Mets package…and THEY didn’t get Santana either
McLovin,
not sure why I (or anybody else) reads your literary diarhea but Johnson was coming off a phenominal season and the commitment was 2 years along with Vazquez and Navarro. Santana would cost Hughes, Melky, etc and $150M+ (considering luxury tax).
I was one of the biggest supporters of getting Johan, but your logic, to no surprise, is seriously flawed.
read this on the Twins blog, that someone posted earlier.
Boston Dave: Thanks. I’m sure I was aware of it at the time, but it’s been a long time since November.
My opinion is that I am glad that we did not give up any of our prospects and that Johan Santana has gone to the National League. My only problem is that the Mets had gotten him at a bargain deal, where the Twins wanted us to cough up Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in the same deal. The Mets stole Johan Santana given up no bodies, with the exception of Carlos Gomez. I feel that in the long run we needed to change tradition and create homegrown talent, with the Big 3 leading us to championships and pennants. All Yankee and Boston fans are all relieved that this ordeal is over with, but feel like they could have gotten johan for nothing when you look at what the Mets gave up. As a Yankee fan good riddance to these rumors and Johan Santana.
RESPOND TO THIS!!
Ray,
absolutely. The Yanks are in great shape. But if two of the three young guns are perennial all-stars, they will have beaten the odds. I think they can be, but there are many more top pitching prospects that don’t pan out than do (injury-related or not). Print a copy of the top 50 prospects this year and check back in 5 years.
I do share your optimism and enthusiasm though… it’s gonna be an exciting season.
Whozat,
I’m only going by what Pete reports, and assuming it’s true. He said his sources say the Yankees made no offer. If that’s wrong, so be it. But all I can do is take what PeteAbe says as what probably happened.
Well I think Johan is injured because he pitched so poorly the 2nd half of last year. He has declined the last 3 years in stats anyway, but he looked like he lost his zip on his fastball. He dropped a couple of mph and the movement was missing, or in other words his fastball straightened out.
I have no knowledge that he is injured, but a physical doesn’t always show up an injury either. It could be a tweak or an adjustment based on a rib, back or leg injury. Or it could be just a tired or “dead” arm last year.
I would rather hold onto the 3 amigos and see if their potential unfolds to reallity. I also would have loved to have seen Johan in pinstripes, but not for a trade including Hughes or Joba or Cano.
Why did Minnesota pass on Elsbury?
Not sure if this went through the first time.
My opinion is that I am glad that we did not give up any of our prospects and that Johan Santana has gone to the National League. My only problem is that the Mets had gotten him at a bargain deal, where the Twins wanted us to cough up Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in the same deal. The Mets stole Johan Santana given up no bodies, with the exception of Carlos Gomez. I feel that in the long run we needed to change tradition and create homegrown talent, with the Big 3 leading us to championships and pennants. All Yankee and Boston fans are all relieved that this ordeal is over with, but feel like they could have gotten johan for nothing when you look at what the Mets gave up. As a Yankee fan good riddance to these rumors and Johan Santana.
RESPOND TO THIS!!
Haha wow the Twinkies really got robbed. Smith is an idiot. I for one am super relieved that Hughes is still a Yankee, Melky is still a Yankee, and Kennedy is still a Yankee.
We got so much talent from within that we don’t need Santana. Blowsox didn’t need him. Mets needed him the most…from what I saw last year they had 0 pitching, and I am definitely not counting on Pedro being healthy. Very relieved that Santana’s out of the AL.
The Three Musketeers will win it all!
“He said his sources say the Yankees made no offer. If that’s wrong, so be it. But all I can do is take what PeteAbe says as what probably happened.”
Where did I dispute that? Did I say Cash made an offer when the Twins called?
I just want to say to McLovin/G Love/Steve/Yankee Josh and whoever else, please do not jump on the Phil Hughes bandwagon when he’s mowing down hitters in the AL next year.
Steve, Cashman actually wanted and preferred signing Guerrero. Steinbrenner overruled him by giving Sheffield a contract personally.
Getting Randy Johnson apparently pushed the Yankees payroll to its limit, too (it was over $200 million at that point, not counting the luxury tax).
Even the Yankees have a spending limit. A lot of people don’t seem to want to accept that, because the Yankees never shied away from dipping into the free agent market if they thought it would help (incidentally, much of the Yankees’ budget was originally inflated by re-signing their own talent, such as Jeter and Bernie).
Nonetheless, it’s not a bad idea to think about this deal (or, rather, non-deal) in terms of efficiency or long-term…
I think Minnasota passed on Elsbury because they need a stater to put in there rotation now.And with Lester out the Mets were giving up more pitchers.Remember with Santana gone and Liriano coming from Tommy John and Garza gone there great young pitchinmg is not as great as last year..
Or Santana didn’t want to go to the Red Sox.
…incidentally, just so people get an idea of just how good Hughes and Chamberlain are (or could be)…we’re talking about two different prospects who were ranked in the top three (in Hughes’ case, number one) of all pitching prospects in all of baseball in two consecutive years.
Yes, prospects flame out. But all baseball players have to start somewhere, and I’d rather gamble on a consensus top-five prospect than any other young player in baseball.
Boston Dave
My assumptions weren’t based on the top 50 each year. There are premium talents and they usually pan out unless an injury occurs. It is much easier to translate a premium hitter’s success than a SP, but there is no question about some elite SP’s. The fact that the Yanks & Red Sox have some of these elite talents as SP is entirely because of salaries that are required to sign them now from the Draft. Everything has no sure thing, but some are surer than others.
raymagnetic-
I want Phil Hughes to do good but.
1)I wanted the Twins too take Ian Kennedy instead which we could have done if Brian “Hates real Aces” Cashman.
2)Phil Hughes can’t go more then 120 innings this year which doesn’t help us this year.
3)If Phil Hughes goes over 150 innings and dominates he will hurt himself like last year and will be like Mark Prior being overrused.
Say what you will but Kennedy is good but Santana is a Hall of Famer not a “potential Hall of Famer”.
And you’re so sure that Smith would accept less than Hughes?
why is everyone simply ignoring this part of Pete’s post:
“Boston reportedly took Jon Lester off the table and was offering a package led by Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie.”
this package is CLEARLY BETTER than the Met’s package.
it would also be difficult for the Yankees to beat this offer with a Kennedy based package without doing something stupid.
so everyone who thinks the Yankees could have had Santana without trading Hughes are delusional.
if you wanted to trade Hughes for Santana, and there are a few people here that have wanted to do that trade from the start, fine. complain about that.
but all of the rest of the people who think the Yankees “blew it” by not making a last ditch Kennedy based offer are misinformed, to be charitable.
given the Twins’ needs, Kennedy DOES NOT BEAT ELLSBURY.
yet everyone just keeps ignoring that fact.
“2)Phil Hughes can’t go more then 120 innings this year which doesn’t help us this year.”
you really are the dumbest poster in the history of the internet.
Whozat, you said: Dude, we have no idea how things went down. Maybe they called and he said “Do I have to give you Hughes?” and they said “Yes,” and then he hung up. Or, maybe Smith called and Cash cursed him out. We don’t know, and it’s pointless to make assumptions and then get all mad about what we assume happened.
But that’s not going to stop people from pissing and moaning about Cashman making the right decision.
And that’s true. Personally I’m not killing Cashman but I am disappointed that this opportunity has passed us by. I’m just going on what PeteAbe says, that the Yanks made no offer. Assuming that’s true, I would have liked them to have made an offer, and if the Twins turned it down, so be it.
McLovin, it still comes down to big dollars spent for at most 5 more wins in a season. What if Hughes and Kennedy and Chamberlain do work out? How do you compare those three at their cost to one pitcher at high cost?
I would say that getting 150 innings out of Chamberlain and Hughes should be well enough, there is also Kennedy who can go for about 180 innings. That will more than cover it. It also means a lot of different looks for the pitching.
I think the Twins are huge losers in this, and quite frankly, so is Santana. The Mets crumbed on the field last year. That was a whole team that fell apart, not just poor pitching. Adding one pitcher, even one as good as Santana isn’t going to uplift those on the field.
There is still a chance that this will fall through, though I tend to doubt it. Santana has the last word on this, and if he doesn’t like the idea of going to the Mets, then its off.
“I’m just going on what PeteAbe says, that the Yanks made no offer. Assuming that’s true, I would have liked them to have made an offer, and if the Twins turned it down, so be it.”
why don’t you propose an offer you think Cashman should have made today that you think would have been accepted?
remember, it has to beat the Sox package.
Congrats to the Mets. While having Santana on the Yankees wouldn’t have been a bad thing I am more than happy to spend my time watching the possibility of these young pitchers growing into what we hope they will become.
We all know out of the three teams the Mets needed Santana the most. We still have to face him at least once a season but maybe one of the kids can match up to him.
hmmm
That’s an excellent point. Taking the Yankees out of this completely, I don’t get why the Twins took the Mets offer over the Sox offer. Ellsbury is MLB ready and Lowrie is a big time prospect.
Santana is not a hall of famer. He has had an exceptional 4.5 years. That is not enough to get him to the hall of fame.
There is a poster here who has actually named himself “McLovin”
Let me guess…you think SuperBad is the greatest movie ever made.
Please refrain from making extreme statements…your name is bad enough
Hey Pete, no action on the Lohud Mets blog. What gives?
I’m glad the Yankees didn’t mortgage the future and trade for Santana. However, we should be careful what we wish for as Santana should be on the odds on favorite to win the CY Young in the NL next year. And we might find out that Hughes is injury prone and Joba can’t pitch all the innings we would want.
“There is a poster here who has actually named himself “McLovin” ”
he goes under several handles here and on other yankee sites.
he’s a troll of the highest order.
IMO the RedSox (and the Mets) are the real winners here. I think the Sox were really only ever in the mix to make sure the Yankees paid top dollar (player-wise) in trade for Johan. Before the rumors started flying around at the winter meetings, everyone was aware of the level of desire the Yankees had for Santana (and the fact that they could pay him). I dont believe the money was an issue for the Yanks, cmon, with all the money coming off the books next year they certainly could have fit Johan in the budget. Sure the RedSox were interested if they could give up a few spare parts, but they were never going to deal top prospects for him and upset the apple cart of players they have convinced to take less money to play/stay in Boston. Did Cashman win by not giving up Hughes, sure he did! But if the RedSox had not gotten involved, then the asking price would have never included Hughes in the first place. And maybe then we would have seen Santana in pinstrips alongside Joba and Phil Franchise for the next few years. That is something that Boston could not allow and now they have helped keep it from happening.
also, did anyone consider that maybe now that Phil is in Tampa throwing sessions for Eiland, the Yankees changed their mind about trading him?
is it *possible* that his stuff looks awesome?
is it *possible* that as hard as Pete works to inform us, there is information that the Yankees have that we do not?
hmmm,
I’m not a GM, but something along the lines of Kennedy/Tabata/Ohlendorf and maybe a lower level prospect or Horne/A-Jax/Veras, and play around with it and maybe add Melky in if the Twins wanted an MLB ready outfielder.
It takes two to make a trade. I can’t kill Cashman if the Twins would have turned down an offer that was fair. It’s like the lotto though, you have to be in it to win it, and I wish the Yankees would have made a better attempt, instead of apparently deciding that the contract wasn’t worth it.
“But if the RedSox had not gotten involved, then the asking price would have never included Hughes in the first place. And maybe then we would have seen Santana in pinstrips alongside Joba and Phil Franchise for the next few years. That is something that Boston could not allow and now they have helped keep it from happening.”
it’s a good point.
Boston was basically saying, we can’t stop the Yankees from getting Santana, but if they are going to get him we’re going to make sure the Yankees give up Hughes.
that might say something about how the Red Sox FO feels about Hughes….
“I’m not a GM, but something along the lines of Kennedy/Tabata/Ohlendorf and maybe a lower level prospect or Horne/A-Jax/Veras, and play around with it and maybe add Melky in if the Twins wanted an MLB ready outfielder.”
Ellsbury > Kennedy
Lowrie >= Tabata
this is in terms of trade value.
i don’t know, i honestly don’t think there is a deal without Hughes.
and if the Sox weren’t going to have to give up Bucholz and the Mets weren’t going to have to give up Martinez, the Yankees shouldn’t have had to give up Hughes.
People it is quite clear that the twins were only going to trade Johann to the Sox / Yankees if they overpaid. The state of Minnesota has seen Ortiz, Randy Moss, and Kevin Garnett go to the city of Boston and they got NOTHING in return.
Everyone hates the Yanks so they would only accept a fleecing of us.
As we speak the Twins (and their fans) are rationalizing this deal. It was impossible politically for the Twins to trade Johann to either the Sox or Yanks
Via Twins Website Top 10
10. Twins sign Kyle Lohse to a four-year, $40 M contract.
9. Twins trade Mauer and Morneau for two bats and a bag of popcorn.
8