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Yankees watch as Santana goes to Mets

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Jan 29, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

The Twins have agreed to trade Johan Santana to the Mets contingent on his agreeing to a contract extention. Minnesota would receive OF Carlos Gomez and RHPs Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.

Santana reportedly pressured the Twins to make up their mind and GM Bill Smith gave teams until Tuesday to make their best offers. My understanding is that the Yankees made no offer at all. It’s unclear whether the Red Sox offered anything beyond their original proposal.

The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.

This is not a trade that can be evaluated now because we have no idea how the prospects will pan out. But at first glance, Minnesota would have been better off with the packages offered by the Red Sox or Yankees back in December at the Winter Meetings.

Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellsbury are MLB ready players.

This deal could determine whether Brian Cashman remains the GM of the Yankees. If Santana becomes the ace of the Mets and leads them into the World Series while the Yankees do another first-round flame-out, Cashman will have a lot of explaining to do to Little Stein.

Me? I’m interested to see what Phil Hughes turns out to be. It would seem the Yankees are indeed serious about developing their own players.

UPDATE, 7:10 p.m.: Minnesota called the Yankees today, hoping to get some sort of offer. Cashman didn’t budge.

Boston reportedly took Jon Lester off the table and was offering a package led by Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie.

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334 Responses to “Yankees watch as Santana goes to Mets”

  1. JFud26 January 29th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    Bill Smith is a moron.

  2. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of either the Yankees or Red Sox.

    This can’t be playing well in Minnesota.

  3. invictusyanks January 29th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    Personally, I am glad to see Hughes stay as well. I think it is unfair the bashing Cash is taking from some Yankees fans who are criticizing Cash for not making a deal with the Twins that did not include Hughes…as if Cashman can make the Twins accept an offer.

  4. mike eff January 29th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

    not the best way for bill smith to start his career as GM. his inexperience made him gunshy at the meetings and today he and his team paid heavily for that indecision. the yanks and the sox packages were far superior to the one they “landed”

  5. raymagnetic â„¢ January 29th, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    “Me? I’m interested to see what Phil Hughes turns out to be. It would seem the Yankees are indeed serious about developing their own players.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself Pete.

  6. Go NYR January 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    The price is always higher for us.

  7. B January 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    I mean, the Orioles got much more talent for Bedard. Bill Smith should just quit now and save time.

  8. CYF January 29th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

    Bill, Bill, Bill….. a bird in the hand….

  9. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    I am so happy right now, you guys can’t possibly imagine.

  10. Old Goat January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Bill Smith blew it big time. He is now offically the laughing stock of all GMs.

    Think about it. Smith was demanding Hughes and Kennedy and Melky and a prospect. Instead he gets no MLB ready players, just prospects that might be ready in 2 years to start contributing.

    The Twins didn’t get to plug up one single hole in their lineup or rotation with this.

  11. Inferno January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    good move for the yanks. keep our kids, and keep him away from Boston. see ya johan, enjoy shea.

  12. 213 Area Code January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    This couldn’t have worked out better for NYY fans. JS didn’t go to BeanWorld, we don’t sacrifice any of our future, and if anyone wants to watch JS they can. I’m relieved & hope it works out for Willie.

  13. ummfada January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Stiennbrenner just lol’d

  14. Titan January 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

    Like it or not…This is great news for the Yankees. Santana is’t going to the Red Sox and the Yanks aren’t overpaying in prospects & $.
    Although I would have like to acquire Santana after this season via free agency.

  15. Todd January 29th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    Three months of waiting … for that!

    Minny should have kept him in ’08 and taken the two draft picks.

  16. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    So does this mean the Yankees are going to go along with Congress and refund us Season Ticket holders that 30% price increase? :)

  17. JW January 29th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

    Perfect. I didn’t really want Santana at that price, but it would have been revolting to see him go to Boston. The Mets aren’t even that good. They’ve got Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Santana and Maine. Everyone else is old/average. Lets hope Hughes is good because if he’s not, Hanks is going to ship off all of our young talent for the overpriced vets who have haunted the team in recent years.

  18. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

    The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.

    Well, it doesn’t sound like the Yankees were out of the mix because the Twins wouldn’t listen to non-Hughes offers. And if that’s the case, I think it’s a mistake. I’m glad the Big 3 are staying but this still hurts!

  19. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    Any Minny fans in here? Or has anyone visited the Twins blogs?

    They were ripping the original Hughes deal saying it wasn’t close to enough. I wonder how they feel now.

  20. kd January 29th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    for the yankees this is great news. he didn’t go to the sox, cashman asserted himslef and won, and the mets have nothing in the farm now. any pitcher can blow out an elbow and be worthless. the yankees can take 1/10th of the money and overslot for great new prospects.

    my guess is that minny didn’t want to face him ever.

  21. Doreen January 29th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

    Hank expects Hughes and IPK and Joba to experience “growing pains.” I don’t think he’ll ship ‘em out.

  22. MMF January 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    Pete — perfect analysis.

    If the Twins left:

    Hughes/Cabrerra + prospects or

    Elsbury/Lester + prospects,

    on the table then its GM really messed up.

    In all likelihood, I bet nothing close to that was ever offered by either NY or BOS. All media hype during the winter meetings.

    MMF

  23. Christine January 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    Congrats to Santana.

    Thanks to the Yankees for not losing sight of the bigger picture.

    Thank goodness this has reached a resolution so we won’t have to hear about the trade “rumors” every day. :-)

  24. gnome January 29th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

    Glad to see the yankees didnt pull a knee jerk reaction to not getting a ring this year….frankly i dont see Santana being the difference last year…let alone next year…AND further more im not sure that, w/o the youth and energy injected by Melky (part of the package lets not forget), the Yanks would have made the playoffs last year…im not going to say that Melky is the second coming, but his salary is a lot easier to swallow then any of the free agents out there and Damon isnt the answer to beat the BoSox…

  25. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

    “The Red Sox offered packages centering around lefthander Jon Lester and another centering around outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury. Infielder Jed Lowrie was believed to be attached to both deals, but it was learned on Tuesday that, in recent weeks, the Twins and Red Sox had changed some of the names in the back end of the deal.”

    source: Star Tribune LaVelle III 3 three tres etc..

  26. MMF January 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    Sorry, should have read:

    Hughes & Cabrerra + prospects or

    Lester & Els + prospects

  27. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    Drive 4-5,

    That’s the funny part. They will never lower their prices regardless if payroll goes down.

    A lot of people in here seem to think that the Yankees payroll decreasing is a wonderful thing.

    And it is, for the fricking Steinbrenners!

    Not for any of us.

    If the payroll drops to $150 million because of the youth movement the savings will not be fed down to us.

    They’ll go to 300 foot statue of George that will be built at the new stadium. He’ll probably be standing next to the giant bat.

    Our tickets, parking and concessaions are about to take a massive jump.

    That’s why I’m stunned the Yankees got dollar sense about paying Johan. Stunned.

    I’d rather them spend for young top talent than not spend and make me pay $40 to park next season.

    But that’s just me.

    Just makes me laugh how some in here think the Yankees lowering payroll is a great homey warm fuzzy wonderful thing, when the only people it directly benefits are the owners.

  28. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    Rebecca,

    If you think you’re happy, how do you think Phil Hughes must feel right now?

    This is definitely a win for Brian Cashman. And I think it’s only fair to give Hank credit for not caving into public pressure to do something big after a very difficult offseason. His dad would have pulled the trigger on this deal. For all of our sake, let’s hope it turns out to be a good decision by Hank & Cashman.

  29. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    It also says the Yankees never even made an offer. Wow. They NEVER even made an offer when the Twins set the deadline. What happened when Steinbrenner said that “The Twins will call us before they make a deal”. Did he call you Hank? Please tell us?

    I’d feel better if we at least offered something and the Twins decided against it. However, to not even offer anything.. well that to me says the Yankees were playing hardball and didn’t get that phone call that Hank thought they would.

    I am calmer now, forgive me for being overly-excited earlier. I still stick to my beliefs.
    Are weakness is still Pitching. With or without the kids. Just not as weak. If they had the innings on their arm to contribute all season, I would feel more optimistic.

    With all that said.

    Bill Smith is not cut out to be a major league GM. He should be laughed at and rightly so.

  30. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    “The Yankees wanted no part of signing Santana to an extension, which will cost at least $100 million and could go as high as $140 million.

    Well, it doesn’t sound like the Yankees were out of the mix because the Twins wouldn’t listen to non-Hughes offers. And if that’s the case, I think it’s a mistake. I’m glad the Big 3 are staying but this still hurts!”

    That’s pete’s interpretation.

    Heyman said:

    “Meanwhile, the Yankees have told the Twins that they will now no longer include young pitcher Phil Hughes in any deal and appear to be just about out of the running now, if not completely out.”

    So…do with that what you will.

  31. black_tiger January 29th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    CC Sabathia = no prospects and only $$ at the end of 08.

    We keep our chips and can still add the LH ace.

  32. Peter Abraham January 29th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    Attention psychos:

    I just deleted two posts. One compared the trade to rape, the other to anal sex. Can you please find some other way to express your thoughts? I don’t think that’s asking too much.

    This isn’t Masterpiece Theater I’m running but we can try to have a little class.

    thanks

  33. KB in New Haven January 29th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    Minnesota’s take on this:
    http://nc.startribune.com/blog.....0#comments
    Many on Minnesota’s blog sound apoplectic. I would if I were a Twins fan. Why now for no one ready to play for today?
    Let’s go Three Musketeers!

  34. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

    does anyone feel that this puts added pressure on Phil Hughes to excel?

    He knows he originally was the centerpiece of a Santana deal…

  35. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    Any person who signs CC Sabathia long term should check their brain out at the door.

    The guy is a ticking time bomb who is eating himself out of the league in his late 20′s.

  36. Go NYR January 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    another Hispanic player on the Mets, what else is new?

  37. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    “If they had the innings on their arm to contribute all season, I would feel more optimistic.”

    You make it sound like they’ll each be around for 10 starts. That’s just not true. Phil can start about 25 games and hit his cap. Joba can start 20 and get his other 30 innings in the pen. Ian can start 30.

  38. JFud26 January 29th, 2008 at 6:08 pm

    It’s almost like the Mets were rewarded for having the weakest farm system of the three teams involved in Santana talks. Because they didn’t have the MLB-ready big prospect, they got away with sending an inferior package.

  39. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    “The guy is a ticking time bomb who is eating himself out of the league in his late 20’s.”

    Like David Wells?

    It’s pretty rich to say the reigning cy young winner is eating himself out of the league.

  40. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

    G Love,

    I couldn’t agree with you more! I think those of us who spend a lot of hard earned cash to attend games have a different perspective on the Yankee’s payroll. For top price, we want to see the best team possible.

    That’s not to say that the Yankees best team couldn’t be one with Hughes & Kennedy. As long as the Yankees are investing our money into the farm system and augmenting those youngsters with established players, I’m fine.

    I just don’t EVER want to hear about the Yankees cutting payroll just for the sake of saving money. You and I are going to pay the same high prices, regardless.

  41. Todd January 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm

    Twins got robbed……… But they had it coming, toying with teams for over 2 months…..Greedy, and they paid for it…….

  42. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

    Except Wells was not a power pitcher. It’s a big difference.

    Name me the last severely overweight power pitcher who had a long injury free career.

    CC will be shell of himself w/in 3 years.

    He’s probably one of the worst long term pitching investments in baseball.

  43. Blargh January 29th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    Eh, prices go up as long as they know tickets will still be sold
    After all, from the seller’s side, if you can raise the price but still sell the same amount anyway, you have no reason not to raise the price

  44. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    whozat,

    I believe it is common practice around MLB that you do NOT want to add more than 30 innings a year on young arms, so with what you just said, that would common practice would be out the window.

    Even if they are allowed to throw more than 30 innings over the most each have thrown, will they have the stamina? I doubt it. So I stick to what I said.

  45. William H. January 29th, 2008 at 6:13 pm

    Whether or not the Mets make it to the World Series will not effect Brian Cashman’s status with the Yankees. The development of the young arms and the Yankees’ playoff performance will.

    Johan will be able to dominate the NL East far mroe easily than the AL East. The Mets are immediately the favorite to represent the NL in the World Series. Getting Johan would not have done that for the Yankees.

  46. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

    whozat

    True, we don’t know the whole story. If the Twins indeed wouldn’t budge from Hughes, then I really can’t blame the Yankees. I do find it hard to believe, but is is a possibility. But if it was about the money, I’ll be disappointed. There are other ways to trim back on payroll that could have made getting Sanatana more reasonable from a financial standpoint.

  47. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    Yeah Drive,

    I’m not advocating making bad deals here. The Yanks could beat the Mets deal easily without including Hughes.

    I just think that if Pete’s right and the dollar amount scared the Yankees off, then that is just wrong.

    I’m paying through the nose for everything.

    If all the young kids pan out and the payroll drops 50 million in a few years, I don’t think for a minute that any savings is going to be passed onto the consumer.

    Johan was under 30 and an elite player, something we rarely have a crack at.

    I’m sad we didn’t get him since I think we have enough depth to make the trade on paper.

    If we made no other offer after pulling out at the winter meetings, that’s a hard pill to swallow when we clearly could use a pitcher like Johan on this team.

  48. jay destro January 29th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    mets came out great on this. twins look desperate. yanks and sox save the cash and kids.

  49. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

    Rotoworlds Take:

    “Gomez and Guerra are big-time talents, but Gomez lacks plate discipline and might not fit in the top half of the lineup and an awful lot could go wrong before Guerra even sniffs the majors. Mulvey and Humber are third starters at best and probably more like fourths. It’s a whole lot better than losing Santana for draft picks next winter, but we’d have taken a Phil Hughes or Jacoby Ellsbury package over this.”

  50. gargoyle January 29th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    Cashman’s gone after this season regardless of what Santana does.

  51. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    “According to SI’s Jon Heyman, people familiar with the Mets thinking say they’d like to keep it to a five-year contract while Santana is believed to be seeking a deal for six or seven years…. Heyman also adds that the teams discussed possibly substituting reliever Jorge Sosa for Philip Humber in recent days, so Twins fans at least have a little something for which to be thankful.”

  52. Jake January 29th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

    LMAO!!!!!!!

    I remember talking to Twins fans and how they would never settle for anything other than Hughes, Melky, and atleast Kennedy or Jackson and Lester, Ellsbury, and Lowrie.

    I hope they are happy right now. I hope they stay away from sharp objects. I wonder how long Bill Smith stays the GM…………he might as well just resign now, and live in a cave.

  53. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    ” If the Twins indeed wouldn’t budge from Hughes, then I really can’t blame the Yankees. I do find it hard to believe, but is is a possibility.”

    The Twins set a “best offer” deadline today.. the Yankees didn’t even make an offer!
    Redsox changed theirs.. (To what I dunno)

    The Mets, we know.

    Wow, Bill Smith has to be chewing his nails right now. I guess his Twins fans are just as shameless and will accept what he just did. It for sure was a fleecing.

  54. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    gargoyle -

    not necessarily… if Cashman really wanted to keep the young guns, he obviously believes in them and might want to stick around to reap the benefits.

  55. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

    G Love,

    What do you say we go grab a $9 Beck’s at Beers of the World? It’s on me!lol

  56. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    So with everyone in a frenzy over this deal, the only source so far is USA Today, since everyone else is quiet..

    Maybe I am thinking like a criminal here, but could this be a ploy? That the Twins never even accepted the Mets deal? Or is it typical for everyone to say “No Comment” even though someone obviously broke the story.. to USA Today of all places!

  57. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    JAke,

    from what i read on a Twins blog, they are in denial and making themselves feel better by saying “who knew Liriano and Nathan would be this good”. they have a point, but they only risked losing Pierzynski on that deal. they just lost the best pitcher in baseball for the rights to roll the dice on some marginal prospects.

  58. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    Fleas,

    FWIW, Fox and SI have also confirmed.

  59. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

    “I believe it is common practice around MLB that you do NOT want to add more than 30 innings a year on young arms, so with what you just said, that would common practice would be out the window.”

    Nope.

    Phil had 146 innings in 2006, which dropped last year because of injury. So, let’s say a conservative estimate of 150 innings. And let’s say he averages 6 IP per start. He’ll go deeper sometimes and get blown out early other times. 150/6 = 25. 25 starts. Joba had around 120, so that’s 150 again. Ian had 150 already, so he can go up to around 180.

    So…my numbers are just fine.

  60. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    whozat,

    i believe the innings cap includes playoffs as well. i’ll need to check on that.

  61. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    “Except Wells was not a power pitcher. It’s a big difference.

    Name me the last severely overweight power pitcher who had a long injury free career.”

    Since when does having a big belly make it worse to be a power pitcher than to be a finesse guy?

    He’s not obese. He’s just big.

  62. MS January 29th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    I don’t get why the Twins would want to make this deal over a deal with the Yanks. Kennedy, Melky, Horne, and a a prospect is much better than this offer. If the Twins refused to consider any trades that didn’t include Hughes, than that is a mistake.

    I’m ok. with the Yanks not getting Santana as long as they made an offer with Kennedy and others. If they didn’t bother to make an offer at all, than I have a problem with that.

  63. Hideki Balboni January 29th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    There will be massive pressure on Hughes if Santana is pitching in the same media market. You know that people are going to hold their stats side by side every month to evaluate whether the Yanks should have made the trade. It’s totally unfair, but it’s going to happen.

  64. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

    “i believe the innings cap includes playoffs as well. i’ll need to check on that.”

    So hughes cranks out 4 extra starts and Joba continues in the pen. Woo! Given that Phil threw almost 150 innings two years ago, I feel like pushing him to 170 this year probably isn’t that big a deal.

  65. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

    “I’m ok. with the Yanks not getting Santana as long as they made an offer with Kennedy and others. If they didn’t bother to make an offer at all, than I have a problem with that.”

    If the Twins told them three days ago that they’d only listen to offers that started with “Hughes and”, are you still upset if they didn’t put in an offer yesterday?

  66. mel January 29th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

    Where’s that guy Matt from Minnesota that came in here prior to the winter meetings? Bet he’d like our “rubbish” now.

  67. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

    whozat, there is a way too many “what-ifs” to my liking there.

    I guess we can always use Igawa.

  68. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    whozat,

    cant find out about the playoff innings counting, but i think they do.

    but more importantly, (at least in the “30 rule”), minor league innings DO NOT count as major league innings. based on Will Carroll’s post a couple weeks back, there is no real formula for minor league innings… but they basically count for less than major league innings. so its not as simple as adding 30 to their MiLB pls MLB totals.

  69. matt January 29th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

    Great job by the mets terrible job by the Twins. But since the twins knew they wouldn’t resign johan the deal had to be done

  70. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    lol mel,

    I dont think there will be many Matt sightings in the near future.

  71. bodhisattva January 29th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    Just because we refused to give up hughes doesn’t mean we should have yielded other top prospects. What if they wanted Tabata and Jackson as recompense? Or Heredia or Melancon? In which case, they needed to be told to **** off.

  72. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    One effect this non-trade may have on the Yankees in the future…..

    We will not be bullied to give up more than everybody else.

    I bet the Twins thought the Yankees would do ‘whatever it takes’ to get Santana and overpay for him. This non-trade sends a message to the rest of the league and may just change the league and publics’ perception of the Yanks.

    It may have some long-term benefits that we’ll never be able to measure…

  73. kd January 29th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    my guess is that minny never wanted to send him to the al. let the mets overpay for 7 years

  74. Old Ranger January 29th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

    Santana is gone, Be happy people!
    We keep our kids and hopefully, take pride in the fact that we will see them mature into big time pitchers. We can still win without Santana. Just think; we trade (Pitching only) Phil, IPK, Horne…get Santana. Santana give us 20 wins, we all say, “I’ll take that”. Where do you get the wins that two pitchers would’ve given us (possible Three)? Oh, I see we bring up more from the farm, right? Wrong…they all are a step behind these guys you are giving up, so again where do you get the wins? Chances are Phil and IPK will give us 20/30 wins. Add in (Maybe) Horne…because most teams use at least 7/8 pitchers a year…you get another 6/8 wins. Those extra 4/8 wins could put us in the POs. All this is supposition and hope, but it looks nice on paper. Besides, I didn’t want this trade anyhow. Can you tell? 27/08

  75. frits January 29th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Just wanted to throw something into the innings question w/r/t Hughes and Joba. There has been documentation, by Heyman or Rosenthal, I can’t remember, that the innings increase of +30 per year is helpful only when considering ML innings. IOW, minor league innings don’t necessarily translate to major league innings, as far as the correlation of large innings increases and injuries are concerned. If anyone wants to back me up on that with a link, that would be fantastic.

  76. dontfirecash January 29th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Regarding CC: I remember reading an article(wish I could find it) that stated that fat guys pitch longer. Just thought I’d throw that out there. And Bill Smith is an idiot.

  77. frits January 29th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Ah, Boston Dave beat me to it. Although Carroll was citing someone else too, correct?

  78. Old Goat January 29th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    Imagine if Johan doesn’t sign the extention now after all this.

    I doubt it though.

    I don’t see where this is going to propel the Mets into the World Series though. The team fell apart last season, the only real upgrade they have done is 1 SP. How is that going to make that large a difference? While Santana is a great pitcher, he still will need the rest of the team to play.

    Smith blew it big time. There is no excuse for blowing it this big.

  79. Tomer January 29th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

    The Yankees sit back and let everything unfold again.The Yankees have made several mistakes over the last few years and cashman’s strategies are not working.

  80. dimagg5 January 29th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Pete: I agree- Phil’s upside is much more intriguing than having Santana, IMO.

  81. Jim Clark January 29th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    I would have included Hughes in a trade but I am not enraged over this. Hughes showed enough last year to justify keeping him, although Clueless Joe put in Offenhauser (sic) first instead of Phil Franchise in Game 1. But that is Clueless Joe for you..the guy who last year Cashman went to bat to keep yet in August found it necessary to institute The Joba Rules.

  82. mel January 29th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Boston Dave,

    Totally, totally agreed. Cashman’s got the asylum under control. Santana would’ve been a nice to have, but Cashman really deserves the chance to see if his plan will pay off. Look at the teams overpaying with talent. Ironically, the steal of the offseason was the crown jewel from Minnesota. Go figure.

  83. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    frits:

    Carroll cited Tom Verducci of SI:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....index.html

    Carroll’s post on this blog is available if you go back a week or two. very interesting stuff…

  84. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    I was over at the Twins blog & Twins fans are not too happy with the trade, but they are thrilled the Yankees & Red Sox didn’t get Johan. Most of them really wanted Hughes but couldn’t believe he was not being offered even as last as today.

  85. Russell NY January 29th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    Guys, please.

    We will always own the Mets – Santana or not.

    Him going to the Mets doesn’t affect us unless we meet them in the playoffs or the very few games we play against them during the season.

    We didn’t want him – the Twins were asking more from us than they asked from the Mets, we just contributed a lot of money to A-Rod who contributes EVERY day, and I think Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy are awesome and not worth giving up.

    Good for the Yankees to keep him from going to Boston, good for the Mets who bought themselves a postseason appearance or two… but give me Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy any day over Perez, Old Duque, and Pelfrey. And you mix Pettitte against the weak throwing Pedro, Wang on a good day against Santana’s numbers against the good AL East teams and you got a wash.

  86. Russell NY January 29th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    sorry, meant to say *and Maine

  87. Bronxbyte January 29th, 2008 at 6:55 pm

    Whew !!!! …. the pressure is off. Now Hank can tell Cashman to get Damaso Marte or whoever he thinks it will take to get it done. It’s about the same as adding Santana money to the contracts coming off the books from Giambi, Mussina, and Farnsworth.

  88. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    I don’t understand the money being a problem.Makes no sense with SAntana only getting $13 million this year and over $60 million being lost next year.And with HGH Pettitte leaving.

  89. Save Phil Hughes January 29th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    Phil Hughes is saved! :)
    Good for the Mets.
    Do the twins know what they are doing?

  90. mel January 29th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

    McLovin,

    Who’s this HGH you keep referring to?

  91. Fran January 29th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    I can’t believe the trade that Minnesota ended up making – no major league ready players.
    I hope that the Yankees are rewarded with great pitching for years to come for all of the faith that is being put in the young arms.

  92. Bill January 29th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

    As a fan, I feel ambivalent. It would be hard to not like a trade that would bring in a 2 time Cy Young winning lefty ace still in his 20s. However, I also love the idea of watching Hughes and Joba and other youth develop into potential stars.

    Taking off my fan cap though, I think its a trade Cashman should have made. Its really hard to guess what Hughes will develop into and none of the other three would have been big losses. Not making the trade is a huge risk. If Hughes doesn’t develop into an ace, they will be kicking themselves because young elite pitchers very rarely come on the market. And when they do, you still have to hope you have the best package.

    At least he’s not in Boston.

  93. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    McLovin,

    there is quite a bit that you don’t McUnderstand

  94. Russell NY January 29th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    McLovin – have some faith in our young guys… Ian Kennedy is projected to be a Mussina and pitched well at the end of last season, Phil Hughes almost pitched a perfect game before injury, and Joba throws 100 with a plus secondary pitch and pinpoint accuracy.

  95. Yazman January 29th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    “Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of either the Yankees or Red Sox.”

    If Gammons is correct, the Twins should have asked the Yanks for prospects #s 8, 9, 10 and 11 and would have been better off if we’d agreed. I guess Bill Smith preferred a headline reading “4 of the Mets’ top 7 prospects. If we could have landed Santana without trading Cano, Cabrera, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Jackson, Horne and Tabeta, I’d be strongly in favor. But… water under the bridge.

    Bottom line: I’m happy the Yanks didn’t overpay and are giving the kids a chance. And congrats to the Mets (it’s a great deal for them).

  96. Russell NY January 29th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

    If Hughes doesn’t develop into an ace, they will be kicking themselves because young elite pitchers very rarely come on the market.

    They would have given up a future potential ace, our starting center fielder and 2 plus arms in the penn. The only way this doesn’t work for the Yankees is if Hughes bombs – I don’t see that happening.

  97. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    Bill,

    problem is we don’t know what the Twins were really asking for. Rumor was the Twins wanted Hughes AND Kennedy.

    one thing that bothers me is that there is essentially a consensus that Santana going to Boston would have been a disaster. yet, a majority of fans didnt want to give up Hughes for him. If Boston adding Santana was enough to instill panic… isnt getting Santana on the Yanks worth the cost of Hughes?

    Boston fans WANTED to trade the Lester package for Santana and they would also have been quite bothered if the Yanks got him for a Hughes package.

    Who knows what will happen… but it doesnt add up to me that Boston minus Lester but w/ Santana = disaster but Yankees minus Hughes w/ Santana also = bad.

  98. Paul January 29th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

    Pete — I suspect that your point that Santana would have cost too much in terms of players AND money combined is what turned the Yanks off. The big difference between Santana and Bedard is that Santana is a free agent after 2008 and can negotiate on that basis and Bedard is under contract for several more years. So to extend Bedard costs in the neighborhood of the Cano deal while Santana costs telephone numbers. Therefore bedard costs more in terms of players/prospects.

    I think the Yanks did a great job of calling Minny’s (and Boston’s) bluff. To those who say we should have traded any package including Hughes, would they trade Hughes alone for the package the Mets gave up? I’d say that package would be roughly the equivalent of Jackson/Tabata plus Betances plus Horne/Marquez plus Karstens — two very strong prospects with a long way to go plus two lesser prospects closer to the bigs. Hughes is AT the Major League level right now and has unusual command, so he’s made it past most of the risks for young pitchers. And Kennedy is not far behind.

    I’m pretty confident that Hughes will work out just fine. He’s now had the offseason to recover from his injuries and will be working with Eiland, and I suspect it’s no coincidence that his pitching got alot better when Eiland joined the club. Now it’s will he stay healthy and will he be a solid 15-17 wins guy or develop into an absolute ace? With Kennedy, too, he’s dominated the minors, so the only question for him is if his stuff (made more effective by his commnad) will cut it in the bigs.

    Let’s also remember that the Yank ownership needs to make money on top of all of the salaries and that the $25 per we aren’t paying Santana may be useful instead to make a big play for a superstar 1Bman or OF.

  99. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

    The beauty of this trade for the Mets is they own 3 of the top 34 picks in the amateur draft this year.

    They get the Braves #1 and a sandwich pick as well for Glavine going back to ATL. Those 2 picks plus their own #1 gives them a nice leg up on restocking the farm.

    They may have traded 4 of their better minor leaguers, but they’ll quickly be replaced and they have Johan to front their rotation.

    Omar must be dancing on Queens Blvd. as we speak.

  100. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

    G Love -

    excellent point. as we know, most 1st rd picks never do much but it helps to have 3 of them.

  101. Old Goat January 29th, 2008 at 7:13 pm

    I wonder how much he will be dancing if Santana goes down with an injury.

  102. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    Another hold up to the Bedard deal is Adam Jones may have a degenerative hip.

  103. Jaewon January 29th, 2008 at 7:20 pm

    This is best news all off-season, besides A-Rod resigning

  104. Jaewon January 29th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

    re-signing, not resigning

  105. susan mullen January 29th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    With taxes the deal could’ve approached $200 million, for which you’re guaranteed nothing. It’s not like dealing for a position player–pitchers are fragile. Barry Zito was supposed to be good and what happened to him? You cannot make the deal.
    For the wealthy or perhaps fans of other teams who say they’ll pay anything for a ticket, that’s fine. You don’t understand the average Yankee fan cannot afford to go to a game either alone or with his family. The cost of fuel getting there, parking, a soda and peanuts, becomes prohibitive. Fans pay in other ways, through cable bills, etc. “Saving money” isn’t really the question. Stupidity is, when you”re paying $100 million a year–again the fans’ money–to other teams in the form of revenue sharing. Our players don’t belong to the Twins–I got the idea they felt entitled to them. With the media saying 24/7 that the Yankees absolutely had to get Santana, tell Hank, blah blah, everyone in the world had their paws on our players. To me that’s the best part–they’re back to being our players at least for the moment.

  106. Bill January 29th, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Boston Dave,

    No we don’t know what the twins asked for but at least the going spin is that the yankees decided to take Hughes off the table and dropped out. The last rumored request I’d heard was Hughes, Melky, Marquez and someone else who I’m forgetting. I am assuming that package would beatwhat the mets offered, and that the Yankees didn’t make a trade not because the Twins prefered the Mets offer but because the Yankees pulled Hughes from the offer. This is speculation of course but I think its fairly reasonable if one can trust what one reads.

    You can say that the yankees would be over paying relative to other offers at that price but the bottom line is whether you’d do the deal or not. I’d do it. I also get annoyed by all the comparisons of Kennedy to Mussina. Its neither accurate or fair to either. Both have pinpoint control but that’s where the comparison begins and ends. Maybe people forget how great Mussina’s stuff was in his prime, but I don’t think anyone is projecting Kennedy to be that good. Hell, Hughes will be very lucky if he has the career Mussina has had.

  107. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

    The Mets aren’t the best at drafting players. It seems they do better with the international free agent signings than anything, but 3 of the top 34 picks are still 3 chances to replenish what they just gave up.

    You give the Yanks 3 of the 34 picks in the draft and we end up with Joba, IPK and Hughes again they way our scouting group has been nailing it lately.

    It’s a great deal for the Mets.

    As for the money end, Pedro, Delgado, El Duque and Alou come off the books next season. They’ll be able to afford Johan and some other quality free agents (i.e. Texeira, Nathan).

    They’ve already got Wright and Reyes locked up long term.

    I think Johan, Pedro, Maine, Oliver Perez and El Duque/Pelfrey is a pretty good rotation.

    Won’t make me become a Met fan or anything, but they did really well for themselves here.

  108. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:32 pm

    Susan,

    I respectively disagree that “you simply cannot make this deal” based on the money alone. I do agree it would not have been a very lucrative deal in terms of the money. There was a good article that Pete posted that went over the #s and the Yankees projected to either lose a little money or make a little money on the deal. The Sox, on the other hand, would almost certainly have lost $$.

    The fact that Barry Zito got a big deal and doesn’t appear to be worth the $$ isnt that relevant. I think most teams realized Zito wasn’t a top starter anymore… Sabean wasnt one of htem apparently. Santana is widely regarded as the BEST pitcher in baseball.

    He could be a bust, yes. But if you are a team that is going to take risks, Santana seems like a good one. Winning teams take risks. So, its certainly valid to not want to pay that kind of money and commitment… but its also just as valid to argue in favor of the deal. Fortunately, the Yankees appear to be in good shape either way.

  109. NH Mike January 29th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

    Seems that the Theo earned his money this year. He was able to do a slight of hand with Minnesota and distract them from the best offer (Yankees) and dangle a few lesser prospects under his nose until he dissed Cashman and then pulled away.
    Smith ends up with a bag of garbage from the Mets for their best starter in a division where they needed good starters to compete. Minnesota won’t be a problem for the Tigers and Tribe for a few years.

  110. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

    Bill,

    I think the rumored 4th player was Mitch Hilligoss, but I also heard that that rumor was untrue. We may never know, but it’s possible the Twins never backed off of their demand for both Hughes and IPK. I think if the Yankees had thrown that Hughes offer at the Twins this afternoon, they may have taken it… but the Yanks were apparently done with dealing with the Twins.

    I agree on the Mussina comparisons. They are premature. If Kennedy is close to as good as Moose was over the course of his career, the Yanks will be in pretty good shape. Mussina isn’t that far off from a HOF career.

  111. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    NH Mike,

    The Yanks didnt even make an offer today (allegedly). IF the Yanks really wanted Santana, there is nothing Theo could have done about it (short of offering both LEster and Ellsbury). The Yanks chose to keep Hughes and not spend $125M+.

  112. Juke Early January 29th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

    Nobody knows how any prospect will turn out. Did Smith out wait himself? Who cares.
    Better Santana a Met than on the Red Sox. Yankees can handle him, but he’d have added too many wins to those aholes. AND that would’ve been baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

  113. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:41 pm

    NH Mike,

    p.s. I believe its “sleight of hand”

  114. Steve January 29th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    I hope Cashman gets fired for this. He was hoping that Johan would make it to FA and now that he hasnt we will go another 10 years without an ace.

  115. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    Juke,

    what makes you think the Yanks “can handle him”?

    they haven’t really handled him in the past. I’m just playing devil’s advocate but I wouldn’t be so confident.

  116. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    Steve,

    are you a serious or are you a Sox fan?

  117. Joe G January 29th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

    Cashman is a joke. All these years the Yankees over pay for players ex. RANDY JOHNSON and now the best pitcher in baseball is available and they dont want to trade the prospects and they dont have the money. Has everyone been watching the Yankees the last few years? They cant get out of the first round, they have the same team as last year and there number one pitcher (Wang) lost both starts to the Indians in the playoffs. I could see not trading hughes for anyone else but not the best pitcher in baseball who is only 28 years old!! Hey if the rookies dont pan out you always have Igawa you moron Cashman!!

  118. PittsburghYankeeFan January 29th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

    The Red Sox own the Yankees–yeah, right. Go back under the bridge, troll.

    Johan still has to sign…an interesting decision. Mets are OK, but not great, in a weak division. Does Johan hold out and wait until 09? He would get more $$$$ from the Yankees if he remains healthy.

    He’s not going to the Sox, as far as we know. Any chance the Mets turn this around and trade him?

  119. mel January 29th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    If Cashman leaves (or gets fired as some of you wish), someone else will enjoy the fruits of his labors.

  120. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 7:48 pm

    Cashman didn’t make any offer whatever, even one without Hughes? Then he’s more of a smug fool than I thought.

  121. whoa January 29th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    Peter,

    I disagree. Cashman will be assessed on how well Hughes pitches, not on how well Santana pitches.

  122. Ray January 29th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    The Yankees didn’t BLINK! Neither did the Red Sox! This was intriguing and I believe a bit historic. It is hard to say what is the right call for either club now, but we will know over the next 2 to 3 years.

    I believe Santana is about shot. He looked like he hit a wall at end of last year and I’m sure there are some clubs a bit leary. Also, the AL Central Division is not as strong (Last Year) as the AL East, so ERA & Wins can be a bit skewed.

    I guess I’m sounding like a NYY homer, but in reallity anyone can get hurt and a career could be shot. I think Johan is injured now. I also think if the kids stay healthy they are can’t miss. So ultimately I’m glad the Yanks stayed pat on the kids. I surely like the rest of you will wonder how things might have been if Johan wore pinstripes.

    I really wish the Yanks had Kazmir more than any other LH SP. So who knows, maybe he unfolds in their laps later along with the kids.

  123. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Johan is the best pitcher now and he may get the Mets to the playoffs for the next couple years, but Phil, Joba and Ian have entire careers ahead of them.

    I am extremely glad Cash is willing to take the chance.

  124. Jake January 29th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

    Pittsburgh Yankee Fan,

    No chance the Mets trade him if he waives his no trade clause for this. Isn’t his no-trade reinstated regardless of whether he accepts this trade?

    Why would the Mets give up 4 guys to trade him away when a Starting Pitcher is precisely what they need…let alone an Ace?

    I am just glad he isn’t in the AL anymore, let alone Boston.

  125. mel January 29th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Pittsburgh,

    I don’t think Santana holds out. He’ll get more than $20M, but less than $25M. I truly believe that if he had reached free agency, he would’ve gotten at least $25M.

    Santana’s also a pretty good hitter. He may enjoy being in the lineup. But if he approaches it seriously, that increases risk of injury.

  126. Dr. Tooth, D.D.S. January 29th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    It’s so good to see Peter Gammons and his yellow stumps for another season on ESPN.

  127. Chris from Pinstriped Scranton January 29th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    I know this is off topic, but i just wanted to thank everyone for their support today. I hope I can come back and write next year.

    Glad we still got Hughes and the rest of the trio. It’s well worth it from what I’ve seen in Scranton.

  128. Jake January 29th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    And by the way, I would like to be the first person to insist that Johan Santana will get injured this coming season. That wear and tear showed at the end of last season and the Mets will reap what the have sewn. In this sense, Bill Smith might have gotten away with something.

    They are retarded if they sign him to a 7 year, $140 million contract. Crazy business.

  129. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    This is a long way from being over. Santana still has to take a physical, and he has to agree to an extenstion. My guess the earliest it will be done would be Friday.

  130. G. Love January 29th, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    If that’s true and the Yankees didn’t even make an IPK, Melky 2 prospects type offer today, then Cashman and the Yankees did a bad job in my opinion.

    They shouldn’t have considered trading Hughes at this point, but to not even make their best “B” offer and let him go to the Mets for that seems very lame.

  131. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    Ray,

    a) Santana is not shot

    b) be careful saying Joba, Phil, and Ian are all “can’t miss”. Can’t miss what? It’s unlikely that all 3 will be superstars. I hope they are, but its way too early to call them can’t miss. They are certainly enough to be excited though :)

  132. Matt Schweber January 29th, 2008 at 7:56 pm

    I wouldn’t call Cashman a “fool,” Schill, but I won’t quibble with the charge of “smugness”.

  133. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    Santana would prob get $25M per in FA. But I can’t see him not taking the financial security of a guaranteed contract for $125M+ to play in NY for a contender.

    Unless he fails the physical, consider this a done deal.

  134. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 7:58 pm

    “If that’s true and the Yankees didn’t even make an IPK, Melky 2 prospects type offer today, then Cashman and the Yankees did a bad job in my opinion.”

    I repeat…

    If the Twins said two days ago that Hughes had to be in any offer, what would have been the point of making a Kennedy-based offer today?

  135. Ray January 29th, 2008 at 8:00 pm

    This is a save face for the Twins in that they didn’t sell out to the big bad Yanks or Red Sox. This is a win for the Yanks & Red Sox in that the other team didn’t get Johan. As i stated above, I believe Johan is injured. This could really look sour for the Mets if they tie up $140M on an injured SP. It could look like a steal if Johan is healthy as well.

    The Yanks always intrigue me on SP who give them trouble & ones that don’t. Same with the Red Sox. Santana is a great SP, but he wouldn’t have been as good in Fenway but might have been better in Yankee Stadium. Who knows?

  136. PittsburghYankeeFan January 29th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

    I know it’s weird, but isn’t it interesting that the Twins called the Yankees one last time…kind of tells you what Johan is thinking.

    Cashman refused to make an offer. Also very interesting. Not even a bunch of minor leaguers? The Yankees could have matched the Mets, and exceeded them, without Hughes, and I bet without IPK. Maybe Cash did not want to get the Sox involved. Or, maybe this is the thinking…

    (1) Santana wants to play for the Yankees, on the left hander’s dream field.

    (2) Bill Smith says (under pressure): “NY, I’ll give you NY!”

    (3) There is a slight chance that Santana rejects the Mets offer, making Smith look good, and then signs with the Yankees as a free agent in 09. Everyone looks good, except the Mets.

    (4) Money is not the issue here. It never was.

  137. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

    Thats bull.No wonder Cashman can’t get good freeagents.Ian Kennedy,Melky,Marquez and cheap prospect would have gotten it done.That keep Santana out of the A.L. is BS.Oppenheimer is responsible for these great young stars.CAshman drop the ball.WAng,Hughes,HGH Pettitte,JOba,SAntana is now a gone.Hope Brian is fired.

  138. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 8:04 pm

    Peter Gammons just said that not one of the players the Twins received would make the top 10 prospects list of eithr the Yankees or Red Sox.

    This is pretty funny, I read somewhere that the Mets gave up 3 of their top 7 propsects (something like that). I guess it is all in perspective. They have a crappy farm system by Yankee standards now. I guess you could say 4 years ago when we got Aaron Boone, Brandon Clausen was probably in our top 10 in the farm. Also when we got Randy, Brad Halsey, was also in the top 10. How times have changed!

  139. Steve January 29th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    I am dead serious about Cashman and I am a huge Yankees fan. I have been stating this for years now. Cashman refuses to pony up the dough because he wants to be recognized as a the guy who built the Yanks from within rather than the guy who bought World Series’s. Sadly, he has allowed big name after big name to get by us (Beltran, Guerrero for example) and the players we do get are usually the work of Steinbrenner and not him. I doubt Cashman would have even gone all out to sign Santana had he made it to FA but I would like to believe that he realized that because of revenue sharing, the Yankees dont get much chance anymore to acquire an ace through Free Agency, and had Johan made it, he would have made an exception to his penny pinching ways. But now we have no shot to get that ace we have been desperate for, instead we have to hope that one of our “cant miss prospects” becomes special.

  140. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    whozat

    Maybe the Twins were holding out two days ago when they said they needed Hughes in the offer. Posturing. Perhaps if the Yankees had made a fair offer without Hughes the Twins might have relented at the last minute, realizing the Yankee deal was better than the Mets.

    That’s why you make the offer and let the Twins say no if that’s what it comes to.

  141. Joeysdadjoe January 29th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

    This was the best possible outcome for our team.Santana is a GREAT pitcher but to give up Phil Hughes for him plus 150 million is way too much.The thing that will be interesting to me is how Girardi/Cach/Eiland handle the 3 amigos and their projected innings.I think IPK is ok for over 200 but the others need to be limited.

  142. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:07 pm

    Ray,

    IF Johan is injured, he will fail his physical.

    PittsburghYankFan, money is ALWAYS at least one of the issues. and whozat is correct in saying that if the Twins insisted on Hughes throughout, there isnt much point in making a weak offer. we have no idea what really went down though.

  143. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Steve,

    The Yankee brass wanted Guerrero. George Steinbrenner insisted on signing Sheffield instead. He negotiated the contract himself.

    Steinbrenner also said Cashman could have the money for Johnson or Beltran, not both. Cash choose to spend the money on the pitcher, and I can’t blame him for it even if it didn’t work out that great.

  144. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Joeysdadjoe,

    the best possible outcome? really?

    you wouldnt trade Hughes for Santana straight up?

  145. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

    YankeeJosh,

    good point… and Beltran would have been for many years whereas Johnson was only two years (if i remember correctly) and coming off a Cy Young worthy season.

  146. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    Ray: I’m curious, what’s your basis for saying Santana is injured?

  147. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    My position:

    I think not going hard after Santana was a mistake, and letting the money dictate into it was a mistake the Yankees will regret.

    However, I’m not going to call for Cashman’s head over it. He’s still done a very good job with this team, and didn’t overpay for Santana.

  148. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

    Pete,

    if your update is accurate… I find that VERY interesting that the Sox actually would have preferred to give up Ellsbury rather than Lester. Maybe the Sox feel Ellsbury is the ideal “sell-high” candidate.

  149. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Rebecca,

    some speculated Santana was injured at the end of the season and he wasnt throwing his slider…

    its possible, but there is no hard, public evidence for it. and he would surely fail the physical if thats the case.

  150. Wow January 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    look at Guiliani – 16% hehe

  151. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    “Maybe the Twins were holding out two days ago when they said they needed Hughes in the offer. Posturing. Perhaps if the Yankees had made a fair offer without Hughes the Twins might have relented at the last minute, realizing the Yankee deal was better than the Mets.

    That’s why you make the offer and let the Twins say no if that’s what it comes to.”

    Dude, we have no idea how things went down. Maybe they called and he said “Do I have to give you Hughes?” and they said “Yes,” and then he hung up. Or, maybe Smith called and Cash cursed him out. We don’t know, and it’s pointless to make assumptions and then get all mad about what we assume happened.

    But that’s not going to stop people from pissing and moaning about Cashman making the right decision.

  152. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    To Bad Johnson was a 40 year old N.L. pitcher.The Yankees never learn there problem after Kevin Brown and again with Roger Clemens.But Hey BRian though Roger was worth $28 million.But Hey Santana isn’t worth $130 million.

  153. Ray January 29th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

    Boston Dave

    I understand about the can’t miss terminology. I suffixed it with if they remain healthy, I believe they are can’t missers. LOL!

    I have seen quite a few can’t miss prospects over the years, and yes some missed. There is a hedge to that though, and it is they usually got injured from their own Team’s overuse. David Clyde, Big Byrd in Detroit, etc. But there comes a small number of prospects that walk the walk and produce.

    Strawberry was a can’t miss & so was Jeter. Tom Seaver was as well. These guys had an elite status coming from their Drafts & have the swing, motions, skills & refined ability to start including baseball intelligence. The Yanks are fortunate to have 2 legitimate number ones in Joba & Hughes. Ian is possibly as well and even reminds me of Mussina when he came up as a can’t miss along with big Ben McDonald. Well McDonald got hurt & never was the same again. One might say the same about Prior & Woods, but I blame their injuries on the Cubs.

    Phil & Joba are special and everyone knows it. Ian is very very good, but not elite and who knows he might end up being the best of the bunch. All are composed, and have high ceilings. Two number 1 starters to go along with Wang, and another number two starter in Ian. That sounds very good to me. Plus the cubbard is not bare in AAA & AA for more quality SP’s as well.

  154. Victor the Predictor January 29th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    The so-called limited innings issue with Hughes, Joba or IPK can be dealt with easier than made out to be with the help of good talent at AAA at specified times of the season.

  155. Blargh January 29th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

    Looks like some people here still think Cashman can magically make Bill Smith deal Santana to the AL East

    Remember, the Red Sox could (and have before, like the Yanks) easily have trumped the Mets package…and THEY didn’t get Santana either

  156. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    McLovin,

    not sure why I (or anybody else) reads your literary diarhea but Johnson was coming off a phenominal season and the commitment was 2 years along with Vazquez and Navarro. Santana would cost Hughes, Melky, etc and $150M+ (considering luxury tax).

    I was one of the biggest supporters of getting Johan, but your logic, to no surprise, is seriously flawed.

  157. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    read this on the Twins blog, that someone posted earlier.

    :lol:

    Nice trade since Santana didnot want to earn $93 mil as Twin.

    The Mets paid a high price in prospects to land Santana, agreeing to send the Twins outfielder Carlos Gomez and pitchers Phil Humber, Deolis Guerra and Kevin Mulvey.

    Now deal for a veteran with these young pitchers or sign Benson and Lofton.

    Win Twins!

    I’m not exactly sure how the Mets paid a high price. Omar is likely dancing in the rain!!!

  158. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    Boston Dave: Thanks. I’m sure I was aware of it at the time, but it’s been a long time since November.

  159. Mark January 29th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    My opinion is that I am glad that we did not give up any of our prospects and that Johan Santana has gone to the National League. My only problem is that the Mets had gotten him at a bargain deal, where the Twins wanted us to cough up Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in the same deal. The Mets stole Johan Santana given up no bodies, with the exception of Carlos Gomez. I feel that in the long run we needed to change tradition and create homegrown talent, with the Big 3 leading us to championships and pennants. All Yankee and Boston fans are all relieved that this ordeal is over with, but feel like they could have gotten johan for nothing when you look at what the Mets gave up. As a Yankee fan good riddance to these rumors and Johan Santana.

    RESPOND TO THIS!!

  160. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    Ray,

    absolutely. The Yanks are in great shape. But if two of the three young guns are perennial all-stars, they will have beaten the odds. I think they can be, but there are many more top pitching prospects that don’t pan out than do (injury-related or not). Print a copy of the top 50 prospects this year and check back in 5 years.

    I do share your optimism and enthusiasm though… it’s gonna be an exciting season.

  161. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

    Whozat,

    I’m only going by what Pete reports, and assuming it’s true. He said his sources say the Yankees made no offer. If that’s wrong, so be it. But all I can do is take what PeteAbe says as what probably happened.

  162. Ray January 29th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

    Well I think Johan is injured because he pitched so poorly the 2nd half of last year. He has declined the last 3 years in stats anyway, but he looked like he lost his zip on his fastball. He dropped a couple of mph and the movement was missing, or in other words his fastball straightened out.

    I have no knowledge that he is injured, but a physical doesn’t always show up an injury either. It could be a tweak or an adjustment based on a rib, back or leg injury. Or it could be just a tired or “dead” arm last year.

    I would rather hold onto the 3 amigos and see if their potential unfolds to reallity. I also would have loved to have seen Johan in pinstripes, but not for a trade including Hughes or Joba or Cano.

  163. mel January 29th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

    Why did Minnesota pass on Elsbury?

  164. Mark January 29th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Not sure if this went through the first time.

    My opinion is that I am glad that we did not give up any of our prospects and that Johan Santana has gone to the National League. My only problem is that the Mets had gotten him at a bargain deal, where the Twins wanted us to cough up Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes in the same deal. The Mets stole Johan Santana given up no bodies, with the exception of Carlos Gomez. I feel that in the long run we needed to change tradition and create homegrown talent, with the Big 3 leading us to championships and pennants. All Yankee and Boston fans are all relieved that this ordeal is over with, but feel like they could have gotten johan for nothing when you look at what the Mets gave up. As a Yankee fan good riddance to these rumors and Johan Santana.

    RESPOND TO THIS!!

  165. EY January 29th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

    Haha wow the Twinkies really got robbed. Smith is an idiot. I for one am super relieved that Hughes is still a Yankee, Melky is still a Yankee, and Kennedy is still a Yankee.

    We got so much talent from within that we don’t need Santana. Blowsox didn’t need him. Mets needed him the most…from what I saw last year they had 0 pitching, and I am definitely not counting on Pedro being healthy. Very relieved that Santana’s out of the AL.

    The Three Musketeers will win it all!

  166. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    “He said his sources say the Yankees made no offer. If that’s wrong, so be it. But all I can do is take what PeteAbe says as what probably happened.”

    Where did I dispute that? Did I say Cash made an offer when the Twins called?

  167. raymagnetic January 29th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    I just want to say to McLovin/G Love/Steve/Yankee Josh and whoever else, please do not jump on the Phil Hughes bandwagon when he’s mowing down hitters in the AL next year.

  168. The Fallen Phoenix January 29th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    Steve, Cashman actually wanted and preferred signing Guerrero. Steinbrenner overruled him by giving Sheffield a contract personally.

    Getting Randy Johnson apparently pushed the Yankees payroll to its limit, too (it was over $200 million at that point, not counting the luxury tax).

    Even the Yankees have a spending limit. A lot of people don’t seem to want to accept that, because the Yankees never shied away from dipping into the free agent market if they thought it would help (incidentally, much of the Yankees’ budget was originally inflated by re-signing their own talent, such as Jeter and Bernie).

    Nonetheless, it’s not a bad idea to think about this deal (or, rather, non-deal) in terms of efficiency or long-term…

  169. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

    I think Minnasota passed on Elsbury because they need a stater to put in there rotation now.And with Lester out the Mets were giving up more pitchers.Remember with Santana gone and Liriano coming from Tommy John and Garza gone there great young pitchinmg is not as great as last year..

    Or Santana didn’t want to go to the Red Sox.

  170. The Fallen Phoenix January 29th, 2008 at 8:29 pm

    …incidentally, just so people get an idea of just how good Hughes and Chamberlain are (or could be)…we’re talking about two different prospects who were ranked in the top three (in Hughes’ case, number one) of all pitching prospects in all of baseball in two consecutive years.

    Yes, prospects flame out. But all baseball players have to start somewhere, and I’d rather gamble on a consensus top-five prospect than any other young player in baseball.

  171. Ray January 29th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

    Boston Dave

    My assumptions weren’t based on the top 50 each year. There are premium talents and they usually pan out unless an injury occurs. It is much easier to translate a premium hitter’s success than a SP, but there is no question about some elite SP’s. The fact that the Yanks & Red Sox have some of these elite talents as SP is entirely because of salaries that are required to sign them now from the Draft. Everything has no sure thing, but some are surer than others.

  172. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    raymagnetic-

    I want Phil Hughes to do good but.

    1)I wanted the Twins too take Ian Kennedy instead which we could have done if Brian “Hates real Aces” Cashman.

    2)Phil Hughes can’t go more then 120 innings this year which doesn’t help us this year.

    3)If Phil Hughes goes over 150 innings and dominates he will hurt himself like last year and will be like Mark Prior being overrused.

    Say what you will but Kennedy is good but Santana is a Hall of Famer not a “potential Hall of Famer”.

  173. Blargh January 29th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

    And you’re so sure that Smith would accept less than Hughes?

  174. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    why is everyone simply ignoring this part of Pete’s post:

    “Boston reportedly took Jon Lester off the table and was offering a package led by Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie.”

    this package is CLEARLY BETTER than the Met’s package.

    it would also be difficult for the Yankees to beat this offer with a Kennedy based package without doing something stupid.

    so everyone who thinks the Yankees could have had Santana without trading Hughes are delusional.

    if you wanted to trade Hughes for Santana, and there are a few people here that have wanted to do that trade from the start, fine. complain about that.

    but all of the rest of the people who think the Yankees “blew it” by not making a last ditch Kennedy based offer are misinformed, to be charitable.

    given the Twins’ needs, Kennedy DOES NOT BEAT ELLSBURY.

    yet everyone just keeps ignoring that fact.

  175. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    “2)Phil Hughes can’t go more then 120 innings this year which doesn’t help us this year.”

    you really are the dumbest poster in the history of the internet.

  176. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Whozat, you said: Dude, we have no idea how things went down. Maybe they called and he said “Do I have to give you Hughes?” and they said “Yes,” and then he hung up. Or, maybe Smith called and Cash cursed him out. We don’t know, and it’s pointless to make assumptions and then get all mad about what we assume happened.

    But that’s not going to stop people from pissing and moaning about Cashman making the right decision.

    And that’s true. Personally I’m not killing Cashman but I am disappointed that this opportunity has passed us by. I’m just going on what PeteAbe says, that the Yanks made no offer. Assuming that’s true, I would have liked them to have made an offer, and if the Twins turned it down, so be it.

  177. Old Goat January 29th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    McLovin, it still comes down to big dollars spent for at most 5 more wins in a season. What if Hughes and Kennedy and Chamberlain do work out? How do you compare those three at their cost to one pitcher at high cost?

    I would say that getting 150 innings out of Chamberlain and Hughes should be well enough, there is also Kennedy who can go for about 180 innings. That will more than cover it. It also means a lot of different looks for the pitching.

    I think the Twins are huge losers in this, and quite frankly, so is Santana. The Mets crumbed on the field last year. That was a whole team that fell apart, not just poor pitching. Adding one pitcher, even one as good as Santana isn’t going to uplift those on the field.

    There is still a chance that this will fall through, though I tend to doubt it. Santana has the last word on this, and if he doesn’t like the idea of going to the Mets, then its off.

  178. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

    “I’m just going on what PeteAbe says, that the Yanks made no offer. Assuming that’s true, I would have liked them to have made an offer, and if the Twins turned it down, so be it.”

    why don’t you propose an offer you think Cashman should have made today that you think would have been accepted?

    remember, it has to beat the Sox package.

  179. Mehdi thinks Bostondirtdogs are scum January 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Congrats to the Mets. While having Santana on the Yankees wouldn’t have been a bad thing I am more than happy to spend my time watching the possibility of these young pitchers growing into what we hope they will become.

    We all know out of the three teams the Mets needed Santana the most. We still have to face him at least once a season but maybe one of the kids can match up to him.

  180. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    hmmm

    That’s an excellent point. Taking the Yankees out of this completely, I don’t get why the Twins took the Mets offer over the Sox offer. Ellsbury is MLB ready and Lowrie is a big time prospect.

  181. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

    Santana is not a hall of famer. He has had an exceptional 4.5 years. That is not enough to get him to the hall of fame.

    There is a poster here who has actually named himself “McLovin”

    Let me guess…you think SuperBad is the greatest movie ever made.

    Please refrain from making extreme statements…your name is bad enough

  182. jk January 29th, 2008 at 8:48 pm

    Hey Pete, no action on the Lohud Mets blog. What gives?

  183. Jeff NJ January 29th, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    I’m glad the Yankees didn’t mortgage the future and trade for Santana. However, we should be careful what we wish for as Santana should be on the odds on favorite to win the CY Young in the NL next year. And we might find out that Hughes is injury prone and Joba can’t pitch all the innings we would want.

  184. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:49 pm

    “There is a poster here who has actually named himself “McLovin” ”

    he goes under several handles here and on other yankee sites.

    he’s a troll of the highest order.

  185. BA January 29th, 2008 at 8:50 pm

    IMO the RedSox (and the Mets) are the real winners here. I think the Sox were really only ever in the mix to make sure the Yankees paid top dollar (player-wise) in trade for Johan. Before the rumors started flying around at the winter meetings, everyone was aware of the level of desire the Yankees had for Santana (and the fact that they could pay him). I dont believe the money was an issue for the Yanks, cmon, with all the money coming off the books next year they certainly could have fit Johan in the budget. Sure the RedSox were interested if they could give up a few spare parts, but they were never going to deal top prospects for him and upset the apple cart of players they have convinced to take less money to play/stay in Boston. Did Cashman win by not giving up Hughes, sure he did! But if the RedSox had not gotten involved, then the asking price would have never included Hughes in the first place. And maybe then we would have seen Santana in pinstrips alongside Joba and Phil Franchise for the next few years. That is something that Boston could not allow and now they have helped keep it from happening.

  186. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    also, did anyone consider that maybe now that Phil is in Tampa throwing sessions for Eiland, the Yankees changed their mind about trading him?

    is it *possible* that his stuff looks awesome?

    is it *possible* that as hard as Pete works to inform us, there is information that the Yankees have that we do not?

  187. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 8:52 pm

    hmmm,

    I’m not a GM, but something along the lines of Kennedy/Tabata/Ohlendorf and maybe a lower level prospect or Horne/A-Jax/Veras, and play around with it and maybe add Melky in if the Twins wanted an MLB ready outfielder.

    It takes two to make a trade. I can’t kill Cashman if the Twins would have turned down an offer that was fair. It’s like the lotto though, you have to be in it to win it, and I wish the Yankees would have made a better attempt, instead of apparently deciding that the contract wasn’t worth it.

  188. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:53 pm

    “But if the RedSox had not gotten involved, then the asking price would have never included Hughes in the first place. And maybe then we would have seen Santana in pinstrips alongside Joba and Phil Franchise for the next few years. That is something that Boston could not allow and now they have helped keep it from happening.”

    it’s a good point.

    Boston was basically saying, we can’t stop the Yankees from getting Santana, but if they are going to get him we’re going to make sure the Yankees give up Hughes.

    that might say something about how the Red Sox FO feels about Hughes….

  189. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

    “I’m not a GM, but something along the lines of Kennedy/Tabata/Ohlendorf and maybe a lower level prospect or Horne/A-Jax/Veras, and play around with it and maybe add Melky in if the Twins wanted an MLB ready outfielder.”

    Ellsbury > Kennedy
    Lowrie >= Tabata

    this is in terms of trade value.

    i don’t know, i honestly don’t think there is a deal without Hughes.

    and if the Sox weren’t going to have to give up Bucholz and the Mets weren’t going to have to give up Martinez, the Yankees shouldn’t have had to give up Hughes.

  190. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    People it is quite clear that the twins were only going to trade Johann to the Sox / Yankees if they overpaid. The state of Minnesota has seen Ortiz, Randy Moss, and Kevin Garnett go to the city of Boston and they got NOTHING in return.

    Everyone hates the Yanks so they would only accept a fleecing of us.

    As we speak the Twins (and their fans) are rationalizing this deal. It was impossible politically for the Twins to trade Johann to either the Sox or Yanks

  191. Central CT Yankee January 29th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    Via Twins Website Top 10

    10. Twins sign Kyle Lohse to a four-year, $40 M contract.

    9. Twins trade Mauer and Morneau for two bats and a bag of popcorn.

    8. Twins announce Liriano’s rehabilitation is behind schedule, “but it’s okay, we’re teaching him how to throw right handed.”

    7. In a historic deal, the Twins announce that they have traded entire rosters with the Nippon Ham Fighters.

    6. Twins announce that new stadium will be named “Johan Santana Field”, in hopes that it will lure their best player back.

    5. Major League Baseball announces that the Rays, Royals, Pirates, and Twins have been reclassified as Triple A teams.

    4. Pohlad: “There’s no urgency. Geez, the Red Sox went 86 years between World Series wins. It’s only been 16 years for us.”

    3. Steinbrenner: “That Bill Smith has no sense of humor. When he found out that I was just kidding about including the Brooklyn Bridge in a potential Santana deal, he cut off all trade talks with us.”

    2. December 2, 2009: Twins announce move to Las Vegas; low season ticket sales, lingering fan disgust over Santana trade cited.

    1. Twins to Bud Selig: “Maybe contraction wouldn’t be so bad, after all.”

  192. pat January 29th, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    For someone who may know:

    Hughes pitched 146 innings in 2006 so using the +30 innings rule, he could have pitched 176 in 2007. Since his 2007 injury wasn’t arm related, is it possible he would be allowed to go 176 or so innings in 2008?

  193. Yankee Trader January 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    This is a good deal. My guess is the Yankees would have been players if Santana had come to FA, losing only draft picks, and with Giambi and others coming off the books.
    Also feel that Smith really wanted to send Santana to the NL and that the Red Sox were offering less, and the Yankees had pulled out Hughes, and should have pulled out Cabrera, since Damon can’t play center, and there are no decent FA’s left-Patterson?? Lofton??

    Someone mentioned earlier that Bedard got traded, and this is not so, and might not happen as OF Jones of the Mariners might have an underlying arthritic hip condition.

    Go with the youngsters. If in the race make your deals at the trading deadline.

  194. Bill January 29th, 2008 at 9:00 pm

    I think the yankees may very well regret this and I would have done the deal but I think people are wrong in thinking a Kennedy lead deal would have gotten this done.

    I think the dynamics of how this played out is that there were 3 teams with any degree of interest given the cost both in terms of talent and money — the Yankees, Boston, and the Mets. Boston was probably interested in being a spoiler more than in acquiring Santana.

    If the yankees had bid Kennedy + others, I suspect that you would have seen the redsox trump that offer. We’d be back to Hughes, Melky and others to acquire him. I think both teams were happy to see him go to the mets though and when both backed down, the mets were able to steal him. I don’t think either the redsox or ny could have stolen him though. Neither would have allowed the other to add him without making an offer.

    Let’s hope Hughes is the real deal. I feel sorry for him but he’s gonna be under alot of pressure now.

  195. YankeeJosh January 29th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    hmmm,

    I agree with your assessment of the trade value, and that’s why I included Ohlendorf to make up for the difference. And no one really knows the Twins mindset. There’s no harm imo in making a competitive offer, and if you lose out, you lose out.

    Maybe there is no deal without Hughes, but my issue is that it shouldn’t have stopped the Yanks from trying, which, according to Pete, it did.

  196. BA January 29th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

    “Damaso Marte was involved in a car accident in the Dominican Republic on Tuesday but did not suffer any serious injuries, an official from his winter league team said.”

    No truth to the rumor that Carl Pavano was in the Dominican showing Marte his new car. ;-)

  197. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    hmmm-

    Thats harsh.Because I call Pettitte HGH Pettitte and say Brian could have gotten Santana for Kennedy who is never gonna be like Santana ever and thats a troll well at least I’m no hypocrite too think this team is gonna hurt there young studs who are not expirence to go a full year and all three have health issues.

    But Hey our farm systems doesn’t have health issues right.Phil can’t even go past 120 innings this year.

  198. Old Ranger January 29th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

    Joe G.
    Are you dense? Don’t you get it?
    Instead of just throwing your vitriol out, why don’t you try digesting what others have written. You might have a different take on the Yanks/Cash. No team can afford to pay the money the yanks have to year after year for lux tax/revenue sharing. They were paying for some teams to make money, for doing nothing but being bad. Also, if (as you and others say) we need a 1st baseman, how you going to pay for him? The Yanks have won more championships then any team in baseball. In doing so, they never, since I’ve beenwatching ’49, ever had 2 or more Cy type starting pitchers.

  199. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

    Joe G. I agree and there are a lot of others whole feel the same way. Not everybody posts their feeling to a blog.

    With that said, after dinner and many i-cant-believe-its, I cannot think of anything other than the fact that Johan WANTED to be on the Mets. Everything else just defies commen sense.

    It has to be Johan that forced the hand, if not.. then Bill Smith is the worst lame duck in history.

    I still think Cashman is wrong for making a stand now on the one of the best pitchers in baseball. Cashman seems to do an okay job everywhere else but pitching. I am very upset that Johan is going to Queens, but we just don’t know the truth as to why. I doubt it was money.

    I do feel that if our pitching becomes as lame as last year — be it injury, bad performances, farnsworth syndrome, whatever — there will be a ripple effect and people will start losing their jobs as rightfully so.

    Still, as a long time Yankee fan (thinking of myself watch WPIX Channel 11 on our huge wooden RCA tubed TV when I was 5) I will continue to watch as many games as possible and root for the Yankees. I will have the taste of disappointment on my palette and it will take winning and only winning for me to be okay with what I believe a big mistake (Not obtaining Santana)

  200. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

    You know, while the Red Sox may have offered the better deal in terms of talent, the Mets may have simply offered players for the positions the Twins needed filled. I’m not familiar with the Twins so I might wrong on that, but it could be an explanation.

  201. Larry January 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    McLovin the word is their not there.

  202. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    I though with Garza Liriano and Santana gone they neede a Major League ready pitcher(Kennedy

  203. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    I don’t understand how any can be uspet about this outcome. The only way for the Yanks to build a dynasty is to do it from within…that is how we did it in the late 90s…that is the way to do it again.

    The Yanks are looking at the long term.

    1) There is no way that the twins would have given us Johann without Hughes (and likely demanded Kennedy)

    2) If we don’t win a championship in 3 years we then watch Santana deteriorate while Hughes/Kennedy dominate

    3) Then the dance starts all over again. We demand the Yanks get another free agent…

    You know what blueprint works…why do you allow yourselves to get sidetracked?

    Dont be like the Democrat party…they are on the verge of nominating Obama who will get killed by McCain in the general election. They don’t get the blueprint either

  204. BA January 29th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    I found this interesting.. a guy on Rotoworld reviewing his top 150 prospects list from 2003 (5 years ago).

    These are the pitchers from the top 50 guys on the list:
    10. Francisco Rodriguez – RHP Angels
    11. Jerome Williams – RHP Giants
    12. Jesse Foppert – RHP Giants
    13. Adam Wainwright – RHP Braves
    15. Rich Harden – RHP Athletics
    17. Gavin Floyd – RHP Phillies
    18. Dewon Brazelton – RHP Devil Rays
    21. Jon Rauch – RHP White Sox
    23. Scott Kazmir – LHP Mets
    24. Kurt Ainsworth – RHP Giants
    31. Bobby Jenks – RHP Angels
    33. John Patterson – RHP Diamondbacks
    34. Aaron Cook – RHP Rockies
    36. Aaron Heilman – RHP Mets
    37. Dontrelle Willis – LHP Marlins
    39. Ryan Anderson – LHP Mariners
    40. Ricardo Rodriguez – RHP Indians
    42. Andy Sisco – LHP Cubs
    43. Cliff Lee – LHP Indians
    48. Jimmy Journell – RHP Cardinals

    YUCK!

  205. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    Ray,

    point taken… just that there are still tons of busts

    for example (all were considered top or elite pitching prospects):

    Brien Taylor (1st overall pick)
    Ben McDonald (1st overall)
    Dewon Brazleton (3rd overall)
    Adam Johnson (2nd overall)
    Justin Wayne (5th overall)
    Josh Girdley (6th overall)

    this list could go on for a long time. Do I think Joba, Phil, and Ian will be busts? Absolutely not. I think and hope they’ll all be at least solid #3′s. But I would be a fool to think it wasn’t at least possible that one or two of them will be average at best.

  206. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    BA,

    you beat me to the punch.

  207. Terry from Hamspha January 29th, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    CC Sabathia next year

  208. Old Goat January 29th, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    Why does the Santana trade or non-trade have anything to do with pressure on Hughes? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Hughes wasn’t the hangup during the winter meetings, it was Hughes AND Kennedy. Hughes was handling the pressure of being on the Yankees quite well enough last season, and I see no reason to believe it will be worse this year.

    Hughes had nothing to do with the trade demands that the Twins were making on the Yankees. From the Yankees, the Twins wanted to have three MLB players. THREE. That is absurd. The RS were offering 2 and that wasn’t enough.

    What it comes down to is that Smith blew the best offers he had, and when the Yankees said that’s it, he was stuck with having to either lower his demands or accept being fleeced by the Mets so he could move Santana away from the AL.

  209. CB January 29th, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    If there was any question about Cashman’s status in the organization as the decision maker now that Hank and Hal have taken over I think this answer that.

    Yes Hal certainly had an enormous say in not getting Santana but this looks like it was basically a draw between Hank and Hal with Cashman turning into the pivotal voice.

    Regardless of Hank’s bantering, in the end the organization continues to follow Cashman’s vision.

  210. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    “If the yankees had bid Kennedy + others, I suspect that you would have seen the redsox trump that offer. We’d be back to Hughes, Melky and others to acquire him. I think both teams were happy to see him go to the mets though and when both backed down, the mets were able to steal him. I don’t think either the redsox or ny could have stolen him though. Neither would have allowed the other to add him without making an offer.”

    finally, someone who is actually thinking things through.

  211. Fleas January 29th, 2008 at 9:32 pm

    east side yankee:

    “I don’t understand how any can be uspet about this outcome. The only way for the Yanks to build a dynasty is to do it from within…that is how we did it in the late 90s…that is the way to do it again.”

    Yes it primarily does take build from within. But it is not one way or the other. Trades help many many teams, just ask the Mets. You have to have a balance of both!

    As far as politics:

    “Dont be like the Democrat party…they are on the verge of nominating Obama who will get killed by McCain in the general election. They don’t get the blueprint either”

    You seem to be fooled by rhetoric and Darth Vaders brain stun. McCain might not live long enough to be elected. You probably are happy with Bush too.

    If you think this country needs another republican to ignore the issues of the average working class American. I’d assume two things about you. Either you are selfish, or don’t have the intellect to truly understand government,economics and politics.

    I personally don’t care about democrats or republicans, I care about human beings.

    One thing though, if you can’t see through MItt Romney and how phony he is.. sheesh!

  212. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

    “for example (all were considered top or elite pitching prospects)”

    How many were still considered elite after they’d actually pitched in the majors? How many actually exhibited the kind of control that the Yankees’ pitchers (especially Hughes and Ian) have?

    Yes, we all know that prospects are no sure thing. However, comparing guys who are highly rated AND have already shown the ability to beat MLB hitters to guys who never harnessed their “great stuff” is apples to oranges.

  213. jon January 29th, 2008 at 9:35 pm

    Top two banned words from 2007 on the LoHud Yankees Blog:

    “McLovin”
    “posturing”

  214. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 9:36 pm

    Old Goat,

    while it may have no effect, its absolutely worth considering that Hughes will have added pressure.

    He knows that the Yankees considered making him the centerpiece in a deal to get Santana (the best pitcher in baseball) and they chose NOT to do it.

    Nobody knows except for Phil himself if he’ll feel any added pressure, but if Hughes doesn’t live up to his potential… people will talk about the non-trade for a long time. It’s not fair, but it will happen. It’s not improbable that this thought has or will cross his mind at some point.

  215. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 9:38 pm

    Fleas:

    Once again you prove you can’t read. I did not opine on the quality of any candidate or who I Liked. I said that Obama would lose in a general campaign…and he will.

    I actually like Obama alot…but that has nothing to do with relaity.

    I also like Johann a lot as well. But the Yanks would have had to overpay in the trade and it would hurt in the long run. That is reality as well.

  216. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

    whozat,

    that is definitely true. but there are still plenty of guys who did well and then faded away. The sample size for Phil and IPK so far is small. I’m not arguing that they won’t be excellent, just that it’s foolish for people to be handing out the all-star selections and tickets to Cooperstown already. Too many people here see that as a done deal.

  217. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

    jon-

    I love being on list.Not easy to be banned:)

  218. CB January 29th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

    If Minnesota turned down a package that included ellsbury and jed lowerie that tells you everything you need to know.

    The Boston package is better than the mets package given the twins needs (they desperately need position players as the vast majority of their decent prospects are pitchers). They could have really used ellsbury and lowerie.

    I think this tells you that Bill Smith really wanted to trade him to the National League. In order for him to trade him in the AL he was only going to do that if he got the trade done on his terms. Basically he put a kind of tax on the yankees and sox in terms of talent.

    When he couldn’t get the favorable deal he wanted he took what he could get from the mets.

    Remarkable that the mets got this done without giving up Fernando Martinez. Remarkable. Congratulations to Omar. You have to give him a great deal of credit here.

  219. Kyle January 29th, 2008 at 9:44 pm

    So what are we going to do with all this money now? There is a lot of cash coming off the books next offseason. I’d like to see Big Tex and Sabathia if either or both of them make it to FA.

  220. PittsburghYankeeFan January 29th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Hey, I thought we’re keeping politics out of it.

    PS–when you take a really good look at McLovin (just saw the DVD) he kind of looks like a minature Kyle Farnsworth–any relation, McL?

    Are the Mets really going to shell out $130 million x 6? I can’t wait to see it.

  221. JoeT YANKEES January 29th, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    AWESOMEEEE…. I’ve been pumped about this since I heard the news, we keep our prospects, the Sox don’t get him – we have to face him possibly once all year in interleague…. bill smith should quit – great day for the Yankees!! good job Cash!!

  222. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    Before Johan was traded the Sox had the best pitching staff in the AL East.

    Johan has been traded and the Sox still have the best staff in the AL East.

    Well done Theo!

    Congrats to the Mets and their fans.

  223. Bill January 29th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    I don’t know where people are getting this Hughes + IPK stuff from? Am I missing something? I remember reading months ago that the Twins were requesting Hughes and IPK but it was rejected on the spot. Talks didn’t end. Talks ended when we took Hughes off the table (thus the added pressure on Hughes). The Twins also requested both Lester and Ellsbury but the Redsox said no and stayed in the mix. The twins requested both of the Mets top two prospects but neither were dealt.

    I could be wrong here but I’ve seen no evidence that the Twins were suddenly demanding both Hughes and IPK at the last minute. Where is this coming from?

  224. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    PittsburghYankeesFan:

    Sorry, about bringing politics into the discussion…just used it to make a point about the Yanks long term plan

  225. whozat January 29th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

    “but there are still plenty of guys who did well and then faded away.”

    Did those guys have the combination of stuff and control that Phil does?

    Obviously it’s far too early to get a ticket to cooperstown for Hughes. However, if I had to pick the kind of pitching prospect to bet on, it’d be one like Phil. He has great stuff, great control, great mechanics, no off-field issues, and hasn’t had much in the way of arm or shoulder problems.

  226. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    Bill

    We’re making educated guesses. No one knows for sure what the Twins demanded or what the Yanks/Sox offered.

  227. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 9:57 pm

    NYPD113th-

    Do you put McLovin to bed & takeover the computer?

  228. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    The way this has all worked out, Theo may have helped the Yanks as well.

  229. Bill Porter January 29th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    “. . . Minnesota called the Yankees today, hoping to get some sort of offer . . .”. Curious that the Twins didn’t call and make an offer rather than hoping to get one if they were serious about dealing with the Yankees. Sounds like they were playing some CYA with their fan base because they knew they were accepting a weaker deal than they could have had in December. I’d be amazed to find that the Yankees and not the Twins were the ones who leaked the information about the call.

  230. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    Buddy

    Mr. NYPD is such a clown. As if he would come on said anything differently about the superiority of the Sox pitching staff if the Yanks had gotten Johann w/out having to give up Hughes or Kennedy.

  231. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    Now we can move on from this and focus on yet another Super Bowl championship for the greatest team ever.

    PERFECTION!

  232. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:05 pm

    The only thing that stinks about Johan going to the Mets is we will hear all the Mets fans gloating about it. Meanwhile, a good majority of Yankee fans didn’t want Johan for the price the Twins were supposedly asking.

  233. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:05 pm

    east side, you are so right, I try to be nice to him, but all he does is come here and try to push buttons.

  234. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    Holy @#$#@$@#$ but the Nets won a game!

    Sorry, had to share

  235. mel January 29th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    For those wondering where the Hughes/IPK part of the convo came from, this is from Olney:

    [distraction of Pettitte/Congress] “might have spurred the team to give the Twins the package they have requested, including pitchers Hughes and Ian Kennedy.”

  236. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

    “east side, you are so right, I try to be nice to him, but all he does is come here and try to push buttons.”

    – All in good fun Jenn ;)

    Are you ready for some PATS football?!??!?!

  237. mel January 29th, 2008 at 10:14 pm

    Sorry to keep harping on the tight purse strings of Boston, but I think part of the reason (besides shipping Johan off to the JV)of not accepting the magnificent package of Elsbury/Lowrey(who? he’s really better than Tabata?) is that the Twins knew that the Sox and Santana wouldn’t be able to come to terms and the whole deal would fall apart. I just can’t see Boston paying more than $20M per annum, which clearly is not acceptable to Johan.

    Wow! Sorry about the runon sentence, but I’m not about to edit that!

  238. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    Before we exonerate Cashman of what Schweber called the “self-satisfied smugness” he’s now shown on two occasions, can we at least confirm first that:

    1) Pete was right and that Cashman made no offer for Santana, not with Hughes, not with anyone else.

    In truth why would the logic for refusing to trade Hughes not apply just as much to IPK? Cashman already has said, he doesn’t believe the Yankees should have to relinquish prospects for a pitcher they have then to pay like a free-agent. Remeber this is a guy who was afraid of trading CJ Henry and Matt Smith for Bobby Abreu because the Yankees had to pay him as well.

    2) That Bill Smith would not have accepted anything less than Hughes regardless.

    Do you have contacts with the Yankees or Twins front-office, hmmn & Co, that we are unaware of? If so, please enlighten us.

  239. Boston Dave January 29th, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    as long as you continue to read and reply to NYPD, you deserve to have to put up with his foolishness.

    ignore the guy… or at least don’t post replies to him.

  240. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:18 pm

    Rebecca-

    So where does Jason Kidd go & for who, assuming he gets his wish to be traded?

  241. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    “Remeber this is a guy who was afraid of trading CJ Henry and Matt Smith for Bobby Abreu because the Yankees had to pay him as well.”

    wow, i must have imagined Bobby Abreu playing RF for the Yankees for the last year and a half.

    really solid point.

  242. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

    I don’t recall being afraid of trading CJ, he was only in A ball if I recall correctly. And Matt did okay for us, but I don’t think anyone really thought he was going to be a stud.

  243. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

    WOW, just checked……………the Celtics won AGAIN. Boston has the best team in the NBA also.

    Now all we need is a hockey franchise to come to Boston and we’re all set. :)

  244. Rebecca--Optimist Prime--Save the Three Musketeers! January 29th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

    Buddy: no idea. My brother might know but I don’t follow the NBA close enough.

  245. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    “Before we exonerate Cashman of what Schweber called the “self-satisfied smugness” he’s now shown on two occasions, can we at least confirm first that: ”

    i have noticed that you and “Schweber” constantly reference each other’s posts.

    you link to his blog, and you have even linked to an obscure chat he participated in on ESPN with Keith Law and Carlos Gomez.

    what’s the deal?

    it’s not like you, Kill (Schill) haven’t already shown a tendency to register under multiple handles on other sites. is Schweber a big Rush fan too?

  246. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    By the way, there are scouts from Baseball America who think that Brett Gardner has as much potential as Jacoby Ellsbury so the assertion that the Yankees, in theory, couldn’t have matched the Sox offer without Hughes is nonsensical.

    Hughes no longer qualifies as a prospect and Baseball America rated the Yankees minor-league pitching the second best in baseball, behind of all teams, The Tampa Rays.

    Who says a package of IPK, Horne, Marquez/Jackson/Tabata, and/or Gardner/Sanchez/Melancon wouldn’t have topped the Sox package of Ellsbury-Masterson-Lowrie or that Boston, in turn, would have raised its offer?

    Why should we assume Boston’s intent wasn’t all along just to obstruct the Yankees because they didn’t want to pay Santana 125 million dollars.

    Can we please get the facts before we immunize Cashman from criticism?

  247. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    We need 1 or 3 more people for the fantasy baseball team. Is anyone interested?

  248. CB January 29th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

    With respect to why Cashman didn’t make any counter offers -

    Don’t forget Hal’s role in this. He didn’t want to spend the money/ give up the young talent for Santana.

    Sounds like they didn’t think dealing for Santana and giving up the type of talent the twins were looking for made sense.

    If the twins didn’t take an Ellsbury/ Lowerie/ Masterson/ Coco type package that says a great deal. That’s much more talent and more major league ready talent than what the Twins got.

  249. Tom -- Yankee Fan Stuck in MA January 29th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    What are the odds that Santana and the mets cannot agree to the terms withint then next 3 days?

  250. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    “So where does Jason Kidd go & for who, assuming he gets his wish to be traded?”

    – Dallas has been mentioned many times.

    In the end it’s gonna be tough to get equal value in return. The Nets may end up eating some crow to get rid of a major headache.

  251. mike eff January 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    McLovin…why don’t you learn the rudiments of spelling. you’d still have no credibility, but at least you wouldn’t look like an imbecile

  252. Venom January 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

    What does Jackson or Tabata have that Gomez doesn’t?

    Speed? Nope. Gomez is better then either.
    Power? Nope. All 3 have little isolated power to date and project to gain power in the next few years.
    Defense? Nope. Gomez is better then either. Tabata even figures to need to play a Corner Outfield spot.
    Arm? Nope. Gomez is better then either.
    Hitting for Average? This is the one area where they can make up some ground, but it’s not like Gomez is a miserable hitter himself. He hit .278 in the Minors.

    I just don’t see where Yankee fans get off saying that either of them that much better then Gomez is (Other then pure homerism), and if they are better, Gomez is not much further behind (Thus a ranking of 4th wouldn’t be crazy).

    As for Guerra, he has better pure stuff then either Kennedy or Horne. His repoitare features one of the best curveballs among any prospect and a fastball that is touching 95 mph at 18 years old! His 3rd and 4th pitches need development, but he is a better prospect then either of them, although not quite as good as a Hughes or a Chamberlain, of course.

  253. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

    Tom, I think Johan will come to an agreement with the Mets. Supposedly he went to the Twins and told them to make a trade already. He wants it done, so as long as they are between 20-25 a year, it will be done!

  254. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

    Yeah, I like the guys writing style and his political perspective and usually his take on the Yankees, so what? Maybe, we’re lovers. What’s it to you? Stick to the arguments.

    Anyway, you’re getting awfully personal today, hmmn. What’s wrong? Not enough of a forum for vituperation and invective over at Lane and Kreese’s site that you have to spew it over here to?

  255. LCâ„¢ January 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

    idc, as long as Boston didnt get him

  256. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex") January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Holy @#$#@$@#$ but the Nets won a game!

    Sorry, had to share

    hey you never know :lol:

  257. Who Needs Johan January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    IN CASH WE TRUST

  258. Who Needs Johan January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    IN CASH WE TRUST

  259. Tom -- Yankee Fan Stuck in MA January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Jennifer, but are the Mets going to give him 150 million? 6 years at 25 Million?

  260. Kyle January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Jennifer:
    What kind of league is this? What stats are being used? What site is hosting? I might be interested.

  261. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Isn’t it interesting how it is said that none of the players in the Mets package would be in the top 10 of either the Yankees, or Soxs. It is also interesting to note that all of the players in the Mets package are the top 7 in their system.

    Makes you go HMMM huh Venom?

  262. CB January 29th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    “By the way, there are scouts from Baseball America who think that Brett Gardner has as much potential as Jacoby Ellsbury so the assertion that the Yankees, in theory, couldn’t have matched the Sox offer without Hughes is nonsensical.”

    This is completely innacurate. The only people who think that Brett Gardner has as much potential as Jacoby Ellsbury are some yankee fans and yankee bloggers.

    Yankee fans have peppered BA and ESPN chats over and over again demanding to know how Ellsbury is better than Gardner.

    No one at BA ever takes that comparison seriously. Jim Callis and John Manuel have answered that question over and over.

    Here’s what keith law said about that comparison:

    Gary (DC): Keith – I have seen many of my fellow Yankee fans attempt to compare Brett Gardner favorably to Jacoby Ellsbury. Seems crazy to me. Is it more realistic to expect Gardner to be a 4th outfielder/late inning pinch runner type?

    SportsNation Keith Law: That’s beyond crazy – it’s hallucinatory. Gardner is a 5th outfielder who could, if everything clicks, be a 4th.

    And besides that – the Twins rejected the ellsbury package.

  263. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    Brandon-

    Where have you been? Hanging with Dr.Acula?

  264. stinky January 29th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    If Hughes doesn’t turn into an ace, this non-trade is a disaster.

  265. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

    Here’s hoping that on June 1 the Yanks are at least 26 -26 rather than the 22 -30 they were last year.

    Last year, just going 26 -26, the Yanks would have finished 2 games ahead of ” the best staff in the AL”. The same “best staff in the AL” that went 4 -10 against the Yanks from June 1 on.

  266. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:33 pm

    Tom, the Mets went into this knowing what he turned down from the Twins. So they had to know the ballpark of what they’d need to offer him.

    Kyle- we were going to use cbssportsline, but it costs money, so we decided to use yahoo. It is going to be head to head. This is the first time I am setting it up, so I am going to ask someone who is partipating to help me.

  267. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

    By the way, how come bobcat didnt break us the news of the Santana trade?

  268. NYPD113th January 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    “Here’s hoping that on June 1 the Yanks are at least 26 -26 rather than the 22 -30 they were last year.

    Last year, just going 26 -26, the Yanks would have finished 2 games ahead of ” the best staff in the AL”. The same “best staff in the AL” that went 4 -10 against the Yanks from June 1 on.”

    – “If”, “could’ve”, ‘maybe”……….yawn.

    Maybe I can look at a bad stretch we had and say “if” this and that and I’ll make up that 2 game lead you discovered.

    Off to work ladies!

    Gnight all, GO PATSFECTION!

  269. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex") January 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Buddy B nice to see ya I was on vacation w/ the future Mrs. :lol:

  270. Kyle January 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    Do you know what stats you’re going to use? And is the league all made up of posters on LoHud? I’ve been reading this blog for the last couple months w/o posting, and I’ve been playing fantasy baseball for about 4 years now.

  271. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

    Kill (Schill)-

    I find Hmmm to be one of the most knowledgeable Yankee fans here. What’s up with the hostility?

  272. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    CB, listen to Mike Silva’s latest podcast with John Manuel. I almost positive Manuel concedes people outside the Yankees organization, if not BA necessarily, rank Gardner’s ceiling as high as Ellsbury.

    If you know something, I know and I’m mistaken then I retract the assertion.

    By the way, I don’t like Jason Patric much so I hated Rush. Can’t speak for anyone else.

  273. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    Kyle, Yes everyone who is partipating is a poster of lohud. I know in past leagues that I’ve played in it was sb, hr, h, etc, for pitching it was so, era, h. I can’t recall them all at the moment.

  274. Mickey's Monkey January 29th, 2008 at 10:38 pm

    I’m relieved that this debacle is over. I think Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein handled their parts well. Everyone else involved comes off looking like a jerk.
    No 29 year-old pitcher is worth $150mil+an organization’s top four young players. Cashman understands that and deserves everyone’s respect.
    The Twins come off looking pretty stupid here. Any of the deals I’d heard that were offered by the Yankees or Red Sox were better than what the Mets offered. And, if the Twins just wanted Santana out of the AL and that’s the reason they accepted the Mets’ offer over the others, that’s still pretty stupid.
    Humber and Mulvey are considered middle-of-the-road pitching prospects. Guerra is known for having a great arm and for being 3 years, or so, away from the big leagues. Gomez is a good OF prospect, but his ML-readiness is questionable.
    So the Twins wind up getting a mediocre package of players and the Mets wind up with a $150mil pitcher and virtually no farm system at all.
    And Johan Santana will win a total of 13 more games than Phil Hughes over the next 5 seasons.
    LOL.

  275. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

    You can stick a fork in Giuliani, b/c he’s done.

  276. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

    NYPD113

    nighty night….and not it’s not “if”…it’s DID..the Yanks DID beat the Sox 10 of 14,which is why we are NOT impressed with them in the least

  277. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

    I’m shocked that he is going down without a wimper!

  278. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Read his preexisting post about me, Buddy, at 10:24pm.

    He accuses me of being a Schweber idolater and makes some unfair and unflattering references to the animonsity some posters at another forum feel towards me.

  279. Kyle January 29th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Count me in then. What kind of info do you need? My email is kylec13@vt.edu

  280. Yazman January 29th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    ” think this tells you that Bill Smith really wanted to trade him to the National League.”

    True, Bill Smith may just have been loath to seeing Johan as the visiting starting pitcher in Minnesota. Hard to know how much that weighed on him.

  281. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    Hmmn also has called McLovin an idiot, which may or may not be true but there’s no reason to disparage people for disagreeing with them.

    I thought we didn’t stoop to that level here.

  282. Jennifer - Save Phil Hughes! January 29th, 2008 at 10:45 pm

    Okay Kyle, I just sent you an email.

  283. CB January 29th, 2008 at 10:49 pm

    Kill-Schill,

    I listened to that interview. He didn’t say that Ellsbury and Gardner were comparable.

    In his prospect profile for BA Manuel said some yankee officials liken Gardner to Ellsbury. Manuel said that was nonsense. BA gets this type of overinflation of prospects from clubs all the time. That’s why they talk to clubs about their own prospects but verify those reports with outside scouting.

    No one thinks Gardner is comparable to ellsbury in baseball. No one.

    Here’s manuel’s write up on gardner vs. ellsbury:

    The Future: The Yankees believe Gardner will hit enough to be a regular and some club officials compare him to Jacoby Ellsbury, which is a stretch. Unlike Ellsbury, Gardner needs to start 2008 in Triple-A and hone his offensive game. Then he can challenge Melky Cabrera for the center-field job in the Bronx—with Austin Jackson gaining ground from behind.

  284. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    Kill(Schill)-

    Hmmm is wrong, McLovin is a McIdiot. He comes up with some crazy stuff, troll-like.

  285. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Venom,

    Tabata is only 19 years old, Gomez is 22. Those are 3 huge years in terms of development. In his 152 at bats Gomez showed nothing. There are NL pitchers who hit better than .232 with .288 OBP.

    You’d be hard pressed to find a scout that doesnt think Tabata has more potential. He played in the Futures Game as an 18 year old I believe.

  286. susan mullen January 29th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Jeff NJ, one can be an excellent pitcher without the handle of cy young award winner. For instance, in 2005, Mariano Rivera was the clear #1 choice in the Bill James/Rob Neyer AL Cy Young predictor, had a phenomenal Sept. performance in a brutal pennant race, pitching at one point 6 out of 8 days in a bunch of 1 run games. I have the names of a few voters who left Rivera’s name entirely off their ballot. One of those guys (from an Ohio newspaper) was thoughtful enough to list an Indians pitcher on his ballot who’s since gone on to obscurity. You’ll recall Colon pitched through injury, ended up getting enough “wins” and easily won the award. The point is, Mo came out ahead in the James/Neyer deal against all other starting pitchers while being a reliever, yet specific voters (whose names I won’t list here but I have them as I’m sure others do)acted like Rivera did not exist–no problem. (The excuse of his being a reliever does not work because they gave it to cheap save stat guy Gagne). One gave this excuse, “Rivera’s had so many good years, this was just another one. He’d probably have to get 80 saves for anyone outside of New York to notice him.” (I believe it was 80 he said). My point is, please don’t assume the Cy Young award confers superiority. Sometimes it does, but other times, it’s a political vehicle. Thanks.

  287. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 10:53 pm

    “He accuses me of being a Schweber idolater and makes some unfair and unflattering references to the animonsity some posters at another forum feel towards me.”

    no no, you misunderstood me.

    i was asking if you WERE Schweber.

    since we both know you have registered under multiple names at other yankee sites, i figured i should ask if you are doing the same thing here.

    i wasn’t making some sort of immature homophobic accusation that you love Mr. Schweber. i was simply asking if you were trolling.

    if you are not him, then i will apologize to Mr. Schweber.

  288. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex") January 29th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

    Gomez + Martinez = Tabata

    none of those 2 are better than Jose Tabata, he already hits for average and is a clutch hitter in minor league ball at 19, when he recovers from the wrist injury his power game will return.

  289. Triple OG January 29th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    To me I think Santana this whole time wanted to be a Met. We were thinking Bos was playing us, and all along Smith was trying to get more from the Mets. The Yanks and the Sox pulled out, game over. You get the Zonk of the day

  290. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

    “Hmmn also has called McLovin an idiot, which may or may not be true but there’s no reason to disparage people for disagreeing with them.

    I thought we didn’t stoop to that level here.”

    you’re right. we shouldn’t stoop to that level here. i apologize.

    i will try harder to ignore McLovin.

  291. John Z January 29th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

    Jennifer:

    Im another reader/infrequent poster. However, I am interested in the fantasy league. I’m very familiar with yahoo fantasy sports.

    If you need another player, let me know.

    thanks, John

  292. mike eff January 29th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    poll results from the star-tribune in minneapolis :

    Instant poll: Did the Twins get enough?
    The Twins have agreed to trade two-time Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana to the Mets in exchange for four of New York’s best prospects. Did the Twins get enough?

    # of votes % of votes
    Yes 1887

    21.2 %
    No 6983

    78.7 %
    Total Votes 8870

  293. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    If anyone cares about Keith law, here is his take on the Johan deal:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/esp.....=law_keith

  294. Drive 4-5 January 29th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

    Brandon,

    Youre right. Tabata is reportedly recovered from the wrist injury. Even with it, he put solid numbers last year. But I will say this about him..when I saw him play last year I was surprised at how small his body type is. Calling Mr McKnamee….

  295. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

    oh puhlease

    Now Santana wanted to be a Met. Santana only wanted to go to a contender that would pay him…thats it.

    In the beginning The Twins did not even speak to the Mets…Willie Randolph and Minaya were telling papers and everyone that would listen that the Mets had a chance…everyone laughed.

    They get Santana bc the price dropped…The Yanks/Sox obviously made some deal to screw the twins after their GM tried to swindle them both at the beginning of the winter meetings. why do you think they’re suddenly new bff’s

    To the Mets credit they have been able to take advantage unlike the management of the Angels and Dodgers

  296. Steve Balboni January 29th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    Before we place Cashman on the GM pedastal, lets see what happens with Hughes. I think Hughes has everything in place to be a very good pitcher, but what happens if for some reason he starts out 2-8 and Santana goes 10-1 and Santana is starting the All Star game in a Mets uniform AT yankee stadium. How will George and Hank handle that one? Will they hang Cashman out to dry? And how many people on this board will say “I told you so- i knew we should have traded for Santana” yada…yada..yada…

  297. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    CB, I’m sorry but, respectfully, I belive, you’re mistaken about Manuel’s asssessment of Gardner. Here’s what Manuel told Mike Silva about Brett Gardner, beginning at minute 22:45 of Silva’s January 20, 2008 podcast

    “I guess I’m more optimistic than the average Yankee fan… I don’t see Brett Gardner as an extra guy. I see him as a Juan Pierre who walks. And a Juan Pierre who walks is a championship caliber center-fielder… Brett Gardner does hit for average, does draw walks, is a 70-80 runner.. He is a burner and could be a top of the order igniter. I see his upside as great than Melky Cabrera’s… He’s more Micky Rivers but I think he can be a big league regular.”

  298. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    Apology accepted Hmmn.

  299. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex") January 29th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

    Drive 4-5 -

    people forget he hit above .300 w/ over 50 RBIs w/ a broken wrist. He could have quit in midseason instead gutted it out.

  300. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

    Perhaps, that doesn’t qualify him as the equal of Ellsbury, CB. I don’t know how highly Manuel ranks Ellsbury.

  301. hmmm January 29th, 2008 at 11:07 pm

    “Apology accepted Hmmn.”

    you know what, i need a few days off from yankee blogs. this offseason is making me lose my mind.

    if i’m back here tomorrow, you’ll know i am full of sh*t (which might happen), but i need a break.

    my apologies to anyone else i offended tonight.

    this is a hot topic.

  302. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 11:10 pm

    hmmmm-

    Well there was that one time you called me a McIdiot.

    Sorry McLovin!

  303. Steve Balboni January 29th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    Ellsbury is in a place where he has value and is a good fit for that team. If he’s on a different team, he’s just another player. Every organization has that speedy outfielder (Brett Gardner) who is a slap hitter. Lets see Ellsbury put in a full year at the major league level first.

  304. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    Don’t stay away too long,.hmmn. Tonight excepted, I always enjoy your commentary, even when you’re argumentative and contrarian.

    I can’t speak for Schweber, Jason Patric, Jennifer Jason Leigh or anyone else.

    I was kind of hoping Giuliani would stick around a little longer, Buddy, and keep the Republicans divided as long as possible.

  305. CB January 29th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

    Kill-Schill,

    This is what you wrote and what I was responding to:

    “CB, listen to Mike Silva’s latest podcast with John Manuel. I almost positive Manuel concedes people outside the Yankees organization, if not BA necessarily, rank Gardner’s ceiling as high as Ellsbury.”

    You started this by saying that Gardner was equal to Ellsbury by people at Baseball America. It had nothing to do with how good a prospect Gardner was. The issue was whether Gardner had equivalent potential to Ellsbury – which manuel said he didn’t.

    Manuel did not say in that interview that Gardner and Ellsbury were comparable.

    And again this is what Manuel wrote up about Gardner for his official write up for Yankee prospects in BA:

    “The Yankees believe Gardner will hit enough to be a regular and some club officials compare him to Jacoby Ellsbury, which is a stretch. Unlike Ellsbury, Gardner needs to start 2008 in Triple-A and hone his offensive game.”

    So he’s clearly saying that in his opinion Gardner is not equal to Ellsbury.

    And even in what you quoted from your 11:02 comment there’s nothing in there about Manuel comparing Gardner to Ellsbury – which is what you started out contending.

    I know that Manuel said he was higher on Gardner than many yankee fans are.

    I heard the interview – he said he thought Gardner could be a starter for the yankees and not simply a 4th outfielder.

    However, Manuel didn’t say that Gardner has equivalent potential to Ellsbury.

    Just look again at what Manuel wrote about Gardner vs. Ellsbury – he’s pretty clear when he calls the comparison “a stretch.” That’s what he wrote in his official write up for Gardner. On top of that BA has never put Gardner in its top 50 prospects. Ellsbury has been.

  306. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:14 pm

    And no, as much as I wish I could write like him, I am not him.

  307. The Fallen Phoenix January 29th, 2008 at 11:16 pm

    Hughes will only feel more pressure, I think, if more pressure is heaped on him from the outside–and yes, I think a lot of that can, and will, come from the media.

    Seriously; so far, I really do not think Phil Hughes has shown anything on the field *or* off the field for negative treatment from Yankees fans. And that includes booing him if he experiences some growing pains in the next year; then, it’ll all become a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the pressure mounts from all sides. I personally think that we, as fans, should do our part to support our teams’ players and put them in the best possible situation to succeed.

    Even if you think Phil Hughes should have been traded for Johan Santana, it didn’t–and, barring something unforeseen–will not happen. I’m not saying that that opinion is wrong, or illegitimate, or that you don’t have a right to decide who you cheer for. Still–and this is just my own personal opinion–I just think it’s counterproductive to now expect Phil Hughes to carry this burden, and therefore help fuel added pressure. Sure, you can say that if Phil Hughes is so good, so mentally tough, it shouldn’t bother him, but why, as fans, should we subject him to that at all?

    Personally, from what I’ve seen of Phil Hughes, and what I’ve read of him, I *do* think he’d handle the pressure well regardless–and I think a lot of people are going to be surprised this season, when (hopefully) he shows precisely why he was the consensus No. 1 pitching prospect in baseball two years ago.

  308. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:23 pm

    Fair point, CB.

    Although, if you recall, I referenced Gardner in the first place to argue that the Yankees easily could match the Red Sox Ellsbury offer without including Hughes.

    If Gardner is worthy of mention in the same conversation as Ellsbury, then I don’t see why the Yankees couldn’t assemble a package with Gardner and IPK as the centerpieces, bolstered by some of the other top notch pitching prospects in the farm system, like Horne and Marquez.

  309. John January 29th, 2008 at 11:29 pm

    Jennifer (save Phil Hughes):

    Sign me up for Fantasy

    Email me info: johnnyz343@aol.com

  310. The Fallen Phoenix January 29th, 2008 at 11:30 pm

    CB–are you the same CB who posted a marvelous analysis over at River Ave. Blues at 9:58 PM in the comments section? Because if so, I just wanted to say that, in my opinion, the analysis was fabulous, and spot-on. Throughout the process, I think the player Smith really wanted was Hughes–whether because it was just a player he had previously identified, or if he realized after the trade process began that Hughes was the single best talent he could hope to get for Santana–and that, once Hughes was taken off the table, Smith was forced to go to the NL.

    The analysis makes a lot of sense, and one I agree with whole-heartedly. Put in simpler terms: the Yankees and the Twins weren’t exactly a great match for a trade for Santana, and when that happens, sometimes there really isn’t anything you can do, despite your best efforts, even if your prospective trading partner settles for a lesser package.

  311. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    Evidently, Manuel thinks much more highly of Gardner than Keith Law who you did quote CB and who rates BG no better than a 4th or 5th outfielder. I wonder which of them has the better record projecting prospects’ futures.

    Law also doesn’t think Hughes is any better than a 2nd starter. So you decide whether to accept his judgments or not.

  312. mel January 29th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    No need to argue guys, we’ll just convert Gardner to a 1B. Maybe bat him leadoff and his walks can become doubles since he’s such a speedster.

  313. The Fallen Phoenix January 29th, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    I think Law is in the minority when it comes to Hughes, and is putting a little too much emphasis on his injury-related numbers in the second half of last year. Kevin Goldstein over at Baseball Prospectus ranked Hughes the Yankees’ best talent under 25, even over Joba Chamberlain, and multiple people over at Baseball Prospectus have ranked Hughes highly among Buccholtz, Chamberlain, Gallardo, and Linecum in each of their chats.

    Maybe Hughes turns out to be at the tail end of that group (though he’s usually listed near the top, if not the middle), but I think there’s a better-than-even-money chance that Hughes is a strong, if not league-leading, No. 1 starter (maybe 1B to Chamberlain, if that’s how the cards fall), barring injury.

  314. CB January 29th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    Fallen Phoenix,

    I am the same CB that posts over at River Avenue Blues. Thanks so much for the nice comments about my post. I appreciate it and happy to hear it resonated with you.

    I do think that Smith very early on identified Phil Hughes as the player he wanted in this process (I assume that he accepted the fact that Joba and Buchholz were truly off limits).

    I think that’s how the Twins have operated in the past and have had a lot of success.

    Hughes was their guy but Smith got cold feet with the idea that there wouldn’t be another high ceiling guy if he got Hughes.

    Then Hughes got pulled and things fell apart on Smith fast.

    And I think your exactly right when you say that some times a deal just doesn’t get worked out with teams because they have different priorities.

  315. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:41 pm

    I went to college with Law and he’s a total A-hole, so I’m predisposed to hate him and to dismiss anything he writes anyway, except when it proves my point, of course.

    In any case, this is all academic bs at this point. The Mets got Santana. Let’s just hope Hughes turns out to be all-that. Because if he isn’t, the Yankees aren’t going to overtake the Sux for a long time.

  316. Kill-Schill(ing) January 29th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

    I’ll check out your post CB on River Ave Blues. I hope you didn’t mind the back-and-forth over Gardner. Thanks for the clarification.

  317. east side yankee January 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    Hughes is the real deal folks…I don’t know why people continue to doubt…He was pitching a no hitter in his 2nd big league game but then he hurt his hamstring (like every other yankee pitcher).

    Then he came into a playoff game with the Yanks down 0-2 in the series and shut down a hot Cleveland team that Clemens had nothing against.

    I don’t know why people continue to doubt his abilities. If there is anything you should question it is whether Joba can be a starter…we’ve only seen him relieve.

    Yankee fans are very strange

  318. McLovin January 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    Buddy Biancalana-

    No problem as long as I can make you guys mention me means you are thinking of me….even though it’s thinking about running me over with truck I’ll take it:)

    I wonder what HGH Pettitte will say?Hope it reveals Roger of being more of a scumbag then he is.I also hope Randy Johnson is healthy this year to past Roger second in the All-Time Strikouts list.

  319. Buddy Biancalana January 29th, 2008 at 11:51 pm

    The Yanks won 94 games last year after a miserable first half & w/o the help of Hughes & Chamberlain. The Red Sox will be feeling the pressure all year long.

  320. CB January 29th, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    Kill Schill,

    I’m really not trying to argue about Brett Gardner. I like him and think he’s a nice player who will be a useful major league player in a limited role.

    This conversation isn’t about Brett Gardner – it’s been about whether Brett Gardner has the same ceiling as Ellsbury.

    Again this is what you wrote to start this thread:

    “By the way, there are scouts from Baseball America who think that Brett Gardner has as much potential as Jacoby Ellsbury so the assertion that the Yankees, in theory, couldn’t have matched the Sox offer without Hughes is nonsensical.”

    I was just saying that people at BA have never said this. They have gotten dozens of questions about this comparison on BA chats and never said that Gardner has Ellsbury’s ceiling.

    Then you brought up the whole thing with Mike Silva and Manuel. As we’ve gone through Manuel didn’t say that Gardner had the same ceiling as Ellsbury.

    Manuel said he likes Gardner and thinks he could be a starter. I don’t disagree with that.

    But you’re off base when you say:

    “If Gardner is worthy of mention in the same conversation as Ellsbury, then I don’t see why the Yankees couldn’t assemble a package with Gardner and IPK as the centerpieces”

    The whole point of this thread has been that people at BA don’t think Gardner is worthy of mention in the same conversation as Ellsbury.

    They always say Ellsbury is the superior talent with a much higher ceiling.

    At the start of the past season BA had Ellsbury as their 33rd best prospect. Gardner was nowhere near the top 100.

    Ellsbury will only have moved up from 33 when their rankings come out.

    Gardner just doesn’t have the same ceiling as Ellsbury and therefore its a mute point to think Gardner could have been substituted for ellsbury.

  321. JJ January 29th, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    I cant believe that Freddy Coupon would give 100-150 mil to santana.

  322. CB January 29th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

    Kill Shill,

    I don’t mind the back and forth at all.

    I really do think the Twins were going to have to be blown away by a deal from an AL team to trade Santana in the division or they were going to settle for less and trade him to the NL.

    I dont’ think there was much potential substitutions that were going to get this done. As it stands the twins turned down more talent and more talent that was major league ready than they took form the mets.

    That’s the really puzzling thing – why did they not take the sox package? Why did they just settle for what the mets had to offer?

    They didn’t even get Fernando Martinez. That the mets held martinez out of the deal really tells you that Omar was confident that the Twins weren’t going to send him to the Sox.

  323. east side yankee January 30th, 2008 at 12:05 am

    Boston already has Ortiz, Kevin Garnett and Randy Moss. They weren’t sending Santana unless they fleeced the Sox. Same thing with the Yanks. It would have been politically untenable.

    Minaya knew he could get away with sneding less since the Minny fans would accept it. Just look at the blogs …Minny fans are trying to talk themselves into thinking this is a good deal. It is hilarious

  324. dude January 30th, 2008 at 12:06 am

    http://shop.mlb.com/product/in.....30.1922080

  325. Dee January 30th, 2008 at 12:09 am

    Perfect. Santana out of the AL but I’ll still get to catch one of his games in NY, win win. I’ll just have to pray for his arm to timely fall apart if we meet the Mets in Oct. Welcome to the east coast Santana!

  326. Buddy Biancalana January 30th, 2008 at 12:11 am

    How do we know that Boston didn’t offer Ellsbury, Lowrie & 2 lower players, maybe they pulled Masterson.

    IMO, the Twins didn’t want to have to deal with facing Johan in the same league & didn’t want to risk the the extension falling through, where the Mets will pony up the $150M.

  327. i miss bernie January 30th, 2008 at 12:16 am

    YEAH MELKY AND PHIL ARE STAYING!!!!

  328. Kill-Schill(ing) January 30th, 2008 at 12:41 am

    “The whole point of this thread has been that people at BA don’t think Gardner is worthy of mention in the same conversation as Ellsbury.”

    I guess CB, you and I interpret “which is a stretch” differently and the significance of Manuel’s additional comments that BG is a “championship-caliber CF.”

    “A stretch” to me signifies a minor exaggeration. That while the Yankees may have overvalued BG just a bit, Manuel nonetheless concluded he is still worthy of a mention in the same conversation with Ellsbury.

    In any case, whether Gardner is the centerpiece or not of a Yankees offer, I still refuse to believe the Yankees didn’t have the wherewithal in their farm system to match Boston’s offer without including Hughes.

    And while your interpretation of the Twins intent may be correct for all I know– I don’t pretend to know what Bill Smith was thinking– the early press reports at the time of the Winter Meetings disqualified the Mets because far from wanting the most from AL teams, the Twins were demanding the MOST from the NL team, the Mets, namely, a proven, major league all-star, Jose Reyes.

    Which suggests to me that the Twins weren’t more leery of trading him to the AL, at least to the AL East anyway.

    It looks to me like Smith had to settle for the Mets package because that was the best offer available once the Sux withdrew Lester and the Yankees, Hughes. Which still makes me believe the Yankees could have topped the Mets and the Sux offers by proposing some combination of four prospects from IPK, Jackson, Tabata, Horne, Marquez, or Gardner.

    Perhaps, Smith couldn’t accept that deal and save face because it no longer included Hughes.

    But what angers me however is Pete’s report that the Yankees didn’t even bother to ascertain whether Smith would, that the Cashman made no offer at all. Thus my first entry.

  329. Clare January 30th, 2008 at 12:50 am

    I hate to keep bringing up the Clemens/steroids story, but there’s an article in the NYTimes that states that McNamee’s lawyers are saying that McNamee and Pettitte discussed Clemens’ steroid use. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01.....ref=sports

    However, the reporters fail to mention that McNamee’s lawyers previously said that McNamee never told anyone about Clemens’ steroid use. “Ward said that during the time McNamee injected Clemens with the banned substances, he did not tell anyone about it.” http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....038;st=nyt

    The same two reporters wrote both articles, but don’t note the discrepancy. Pretty shoddy work, IMO.

  330. Clare January 30th, 2008 at 12:53 am

    I keep forgetting that two links get your comment stuck in moderation. So here it is in two parts:

    I hate to keep bringing up the Clemens/steroids story, but there’s an article in the NYTimes that states that McNamee’s lawyers are saying that McNamee and Pettitte discussed Clemens’ steroid use. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01.....ref=sports

  331. Clare January 30th, 2008 at 12:53 am

    However, the reporters fail to mention that McNamee’s lawyers previously said that McNamee never told anyone about Clemens’ steroid use. “Ward said that during the time McNamee injected Clemens with the banned substances, he did not tell anyone about it.” http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12.....038;st=nyt

    The same two reporters wrote both articles, but don’t note the discrepancy. Pretty shoddy work, IMO.

  332. Keith FL January 30th, 2008 at 4:08 am

    We traded for David Cone and he was extremely valuable to the early dynasty…the Sox traded Hanley Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett, think they love that trade now after winning another World Series? We needed Santana, an ace there for us to acquire, why have we lost in the postseason the last 7 years…..pitching…why did we win the WS 4 out of 5 years..pitching…not offense, if they were so worried about the money, they should have let ARod go and don’t start to say where would the offense be, who would play third…Boggs, Hayes, and Brosius come to mind..guys like that would have worked, they wanted their big name to sell tickets for the new stadium and break records in the Yankee uniform..we have him but no pitching…Cashman you have failed again when it comes to pitching, you wanted Kevin Brown, Vasquez, and Johnson..but get cheap when it came to Santana and he ends up with the Mets, you blew it and I guess we’ll spend another year chasing the Red Sox and maybe the Tigers even though they have more of an all star line-up than we had when we lost to them in 06 and Leyland said we had too many stars….going in to the season with Pettite and Wang and 3 youngsters, it will be another long season of chasing..thanks Cashman and little Stein…might as well just hand the division to the Red Sox and lets look forward to Wang on opening day…he is a #3 pitcher at best…how can anyone feel confident in our starting pitching this year, Cashman you blew it and I hope you are no longer the GM after this year!

  333. Juke Early January 30th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    Replying to Boston Dave re: ‘ NYY handling Santana ‘

    Because it’s not good to think otherwise. And basing past performance on future games is defeatist. I once respected almost all the other MLB teams. But after the last decade and a half of rampant anti-Yankee bias, coming from all directions, especially the media, I chose to be selective & narrow too with my POV.

    MLB needs to be restructured in every facet. As that won’t happen, I might as well just be a dumbass, my team right or wrong kind of fan.

    But thanks for asking. . ..

  334. swo January 30th, 2008 at 10:24 am

    People talk about how the Yankees can handle a contract like Santana was demanding.

    Now think about this for a second: It’s 2015 in Yankee Stadium, and 50 million of the payroll is going to a 39 year-old A-Rod and 37 year-old Johan Santana.

    The reason lower payroll is good is because it provides a team with FLEXIBILITY. Do you think the Yankees WANT to have a 200+ million dollar payroll? Do you think they want to carry a 22 million dollar first baseman with no glove and plenty of health issues? Or a 10 million dollar pitcher who is little more than a space heater? Of course not.

    The Yankees should be able to handle some extra salary at the trade deadline if they find they need to make a deal. They shouldn’t be handcuffed by 25 long-term contracts. Plus, they’re better off NOT paying millions of dollars in luxury taxes that just end up going to Major League Baseball for who-knows-what.

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