Radomski goes free, not Debbie Clemens
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- February
- 8
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Big day for the rats today. Towel boy and drug dealer Kirk Radomski was given five years of probation and avoided jail time for giving names to George Mitchell.
Meanwhile, it is being reported that Brian McNamee told Congressional investigators that he injected Debbie Clemens with human growth hormone to get her ready for her Sports Illustrated swimsuit photos.
Wonder if he saved her needles and gauze pads in a beer can too? The McNamee Museum of Medical Waste should be quite a place. For $10 you get admission and a free car wash from Radomski.
Meanwhile, Roger Clemens is walking around Congress doing private autograph shows and greasing the skids for the hearing on Wednesday as Matlock Rusty Hardin talks to reporters and denies everything.
Mitchell may have negotiated peace in Northern Ireland, but he didn’t do much for baseball. Hopefully he got Curt Schilling to sign a ball before he hurt his shoulder.
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Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
Josh Thomson
Lovely couple.
So Provincetown Dave, you met my uncle?
none of us could have said it better…
Why is he bringing Debbie Clemens into this mess. We don’t even know if he is telling the truth about Roger. Besides Roger is one of the greatest pitchers of all-time, and he is under investigation for cheating the game. What did Mrs. Clemens do? Cheat her age? MacNamee is a scumbag who is just trying to stay outta jail. I say we see what players are guilty and send his ass to jail anyway.
How much crap do we have to hear before these two “informants” lose all credibility what-so-ever?
“How much crap do we have to hear before these two “informants†lose all credibility what-so-ever?”
- Once players whom testify in front of Congress stop corraberating their entire story.
So let me get this straight.
In America you can engage in illegal activities with famous people, and as long as you rat out the famous people you get off scott free?
NYPD113,
what do you mean corraberating?
Andy Pettitte corraberated McNamee’s entire story giving McNamee instant credit.
Not saying that he’s a good guy, just saying that he has been proven to tell the truth, by Mr. Pettitte.
Rebecca I know. How many times has the drug dealer been given immunity for ratting out the alleged user? isnt that an abuse of power by the Feds?
can you imagine a crack dealer ratting out one of his customers and saying “look, i saved his crack pipe as proof knowing that if i got caught i could just give you his name and i’d get off”
NYPD113,
oh, right. that definitely helps McNamee’s case. the whole thing is a mess though. i think if they had just left names out of the report most people would have been fine with it.
NJ, you seem to have zero problem with McNamee paying for his crimes, yet hesitant for Roger to do the same.
It looks as though Roger did indeed lie to Congress under oath, that deserves a greater penalty than anything McNamee should receive.
This has become completely insane. I am willing to believe Clemens if only because McNamee seems like a cartoonish figure. It would be funny if it wasn’t sad.
By the way Pete, you’d better come clean before McNamee admits that he also gave you a shot or two.
nypd:
why does it “look as if roger lied under oath”
just because this guy came up with some supposed evidence. why isn’t roger entitled to innocent until proven guilty.
remember mcnamee was suspected in florida for lying to the police
NYPD113,
when did i say i had no problem with McNamee paying for his crimes?
my point is, neither clemens name, tejadas name, or any other players name should have been in the report. maybe 100% of them did use. maybe its only 99%. if you dont have enough evidence, then you dont include them. you also dont include the names unless its going to achieve something. so far, the inclusion of names has only ended up costing millions in taxpayer dollars, tarnishing peoples names (even if its just), and most people are fed up with this drama. they could have spent just as much time and effort to clean up the game without including names.
“why isn’t roger entitled to innocent until proven guilty.”
– Because he’s not on trial.
NYPD113,
you seem to have no problem with the government giving immunity to the dealer in an effort to nail the users. do you think it would be wise for them to employ this philosophy when attempting to catch mobsters, bigtime drug dealers, etc?
if not, why is it ok to use it in this instance?
NYPD113,
are you a cop? that would make your answer more interesting.
Yes, I was. I retired after getting hurt in the line of duty.
The DA’s make the choices on whom gets the breaks and whom gets roasted. Usually the bigger fish take the fall.
MLB players are taking the fall here.
I just wonder where all this much outrage and demand for “justice” was when Bonds was getting killed.
Debbie Clemens has nothing to do with baseball. I’m not sure why she’s mentioned at all.
Fitting that its now the Year of the Rat. Unbelievable.
NYPD113,
How ya doing?
“Andy Pettitte corraberated McNamee’s entire story giving McNamee instant credit.
Not saying that he’s a good guy, just saying that he has been proven to tell the truth, by Mr. Pettitte.”
It’s a FALLACY to assume that McNamee is telling the truth about everything. The only thing that Pettitte did was confirm that he himself did HGH in 2002. You can not assume that McNamee is telling the truth about Clemens. Not saying one way or another, but just wanted to point out that you used FALSE LOGIC.
NYPD113,
Bonds admitted to using, as did Giambi. He just said he didnt know what it was. Roger is denying any use.
is there no difference? I reserved judgement on Bonds initially. I am not certain about Roger one way or the other. But I do feel that since there isnt enough evidence to convict Roger (at least thats how it seems), then he should not have been included in a report that stood to damage his career. if they have enough proof ok. but it doesnt seem like they do.
Sorry mel, again, where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
Were you as adamant about Bonds? Doubt it.
typical cop
“But I do feel that since there isnt enough evidence to convict Roger (at least thats how it seems), ”
– Convict? What are you taking about?!
He’s not on trial where it’s “innocent until proven guilty”. The only thing he’d be have charges brought up upon would be if it was determined he did in fact purger himself.
“typical cop”
– Ya got me.
Again, when all else fails, get personal.
do the Feds (or in this case Mitchell) also usually hug the drug dealer after they give up the name of the drug user?
NYPD, you said “usually the big fish takes the fall”. i cant think of a single prior case where the big fish got off for giving up the small fish.
NYPD113,
do you think there is a chance roger is telling the truth? i am not sure how you can be so certain.
“do you think there is a chance roger is telling the truth? i am not sure how you can be so certain.”
- Yes I think there’s a chance. But IMO that chance is extremely minute.
NYPD,
yes convict. however, obviously when mitchell included hearsay evidence in his report when including Roberts, he wasnt concerned about anything holding up in court.
you still have made no justification for including the names vs leaving them out.
Just like in life, some get caught, some get away. It doesn’t make the guilty any less guilty.
NYPD113,
So I guess you have no justification then?
will MLB be better off for having included the names?
what if clemens cannot be proven to have used PEDs and he cannot be proven to have committed purgery. a cloud will hang over the report forever. if they leave names out, they can still correct the problem and everyone moves on.
NYPD,
Please, dude, I’m not arguging for Clemens. Read my comment again. I pointed out very clearly that you used false logic. That’s all. I’m not even saying your wrong, just that you’re using a fallacy to support your argument.
“proven”
– Again, they do not have to “prove” anything, per say.
They have collected evidence,both physical and hearsay in an effort to address the steroid problem in baseball.
I know you are mad that a few of your Yanks have been named, but I doubt you’d be as outraged if it were Milwaukee Brewers who’d been outed.
Roger looks quite guilt and outside of Yankeeland, way more people agree with me than you.
Mel, Roger and Andy have distinct links with each other. His corraberated testimony about Andy instantly gives his Clemens testimony some level of legitamacy.
NYPD,
yes, proven. as long as roger can say “I didnt do this. the report is false” and nobody can prove that the report is factual, a cloud will hang over the report.
outside of yankeeland, people are just reading headlines from espn and have no idea what the facts of this case/issue are. therefore, i couldnt care less what the majority thinks. if the majority of people who have closely followed this believe that there is no chance roger is innocent, i would value that opinion. but that is not the case.
NYPD,
So I guess you have no justification then?
will MLB be better off for having included the names?
NYPD,
your reasoning is probably correct in the court of public opinion. but technically mel is right. though we all know the court of public opinion doesnt know what “logic” means.
“believe that there is no chance roger is innocent”
– that’s a “whoa is me” Yankee fan playing his poor team as the victim. Didn’t say eveyone thinks there’s “no way he’s innocent”, but it is more likely he did take PHD rather than he didn’t
Off to work folks. Have a great evening.
Remember, if you’re out at the bars tonight and she has an Adam’a apples, steer clear! It’s either a dude or Mrs. Clemens!
NYPD -
I’d like to hold onto the belief that Clemens is telling the truth. I’m admittedly gullible at times, and I tend to try to to believe the best about people. It takes a lot to convince me otherwise. However, I’m also not stupid and I could absolutely see how Clemens could convince himself that a few jabs of the needle way back in 2000 hardly constitutes “using.” I could see him trying it and deciding against continuing it and I could see how his thinking could be, why should I be punished for a slight error in judgment many years ago? Plus, he put in all the work and you can’t deny that. So he would have to deny all use in order to maintain his reputation and the reputation of his workout and work ethic. And I guess that even in this line of thinking, I give him the benefit of the doubt — allowing him to have erred and learned.
But this McNamee troubles me. The whole situation troubles me. I said this the other day, and I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for this guy to have thought that catching a major gig with Roger Clemens would set him up for life. Trainer to the Hall of Famer and all that. Maybe have Roger set him up in big business or something. Then the ‘date rape’ matter occurs and Roger walks away from him, more or less, and it’s over. Can’t you see a person like McNamee, a wannabe baseball player – a has-been bullpen catcher – being envious enough and bitter enough to turn so horribly on Clemens?
He knows enough about evidence to know what he’d need to do to cleverly and convincingly manufacture it. I’m not saying he definitely did, because I don’t know that. But in any event these latest turn of events are sickening. My biggest question is, if he was gonna give Clemens up to Mitchell, why not give all the evidence he had? It surely would be have led to what Radomski’s gotten – probation.
Dragging family members into this is so wrong on so many levels. This is only going to get uglier.
What a mess! I don’t buy the fact for one minute that Debbie would take ‘roids for a second to get in shape. McNamee is simply trying to hit Clemens below the belt by bringing his family into this mess.
Not crazy DEbbie took steroids to be in shape.I mean look at all those musiacas taking steroids.
Gotta jump in here.
First, I wonder how NYPD113th would be talking if the Mitchell report had mostly Red Sox names on it, like Ortiz and Manny and Schilling and Beckett.
What I find most troubling is that McNamee keeps “remembering” additional things. One thing I have noticed over the years is that liars do this quite frequently when they are questioned or called on their lies. Their original statements aren’t enough. They keep adding.
Who in this case is doing that? Not Clemens.
The “evidence” is from syringes taken from a beer can. If NYPD113th was a cop, then maybe he can tell us exactly how good would you consider evidence that was stored for nearly a decade, that was in a beer can, and that is supposed to contain DNA and traces of HGH (which degrades quickly) and steroids.
Also, regarding Clemens being on trial. Yes he is. Mitchell insured that he would be put on trial in the court of public opinion, with virtually no recourse.
Mitchell also sited the Grimsley affidavit as further proof that Clemens used steroids. Oops! Oh well, at least there is the word of McNamee, a sterling character who would never lie. Oops again.
Thing is we do not know, but far too many people on the sports shows were giddy about claiming him guilty, so were Red Sox fans because Clemens left the club. Never mind that they didn’t want him any more.
This whole thing is twisted in the wrong direction. Everything, thanks to Mitchell and his biased report, the drug dealers get probation while the accused are the ones who will suffer the penalties.
I keep hearing how this is about the children. How do you think it looks to the children when the drug pushers go free and those who are accused, not proven mind you but accused, are the ones to pay the price.
Seeing that I would say a career in pushing drugs is more profitable and holds less risk than being a ballplayer.
Looks like NYPD weaseled away before giving any justification for including players’ names in the report. it appears he is only interested in making his own points when its convenient and ignoring anything that wont suit him.
NYPD -
I think you mean “woe is me”. who are you? Joey Lawrence.
and no, what i said was… just because the majority of people who restrict their knowledge to what ESPN reports to them believe roger is guilty has little bearing on my personal opinions. i guess that went over your head. or as i suspect, you only make points and answer questions when its convenient.
“it is more likely he did take PHD rather than he didn’t”
NYPD,
PHD?
i thought thats what mcnamee got from a 3rd rate college. not what roger took.
Another thing I was just thinking of… in the Mitchell Report McNamee made the claim that Clemens had a losing record up until he shot Clemens up with steroids, making it a wonder drug with almost immediate effects. Steroids don’t work that way.
Old Goat,
another good point.
let’s make a list of all the facts that would indicate that clemens is guilty.
then let’s make a list of all the reasons/facts why he might not be.
i think the latter will be much, much longer.
does that mean he’s innocent? nope. but it means that the people who are certain he is guilty are a bit ignorant.
Dont laugh…but do you think there is ANY chance we see Pavano pitch this season??
Credit for the deal with Radomski belongs to IRS investigator Jeff Novitsky who I believe raided Radomski’s home in 2005. An affadavit with names found at Radomski’s home was filed in Dec. 2005 (per news reports incl. ESPN). Most of the names obtained by Novitsky ended up on Mitchell’s so-called report. Mitchell was not the achiever. He was a very lucky receptacle on hand to take credit for everything. He’s a politician, a former lobbyist for the tobacco industry and a life long back room power broker. He just hung around Bud Selig long enough to catch extra bouquets while employed as director of the Boston Red Sox.
Hey Pete,
There are some pretty racy adds showing up on your web site.
susan,
good points.
NYPD – the word is cor·rob·o·rate (k-rb-rt)
tr.v. cor·rob·o·rat·ed, cor·rob·o·rat·ing, cor·rob·o·rates
To strengthen or support with other evidence; make more certain.
In other news, Dunkin’ Donut stock has risen dramatically with the news that Schilling will not be at spring training.
Anybody see Mattingly on Mike and the Mad Dog today? He said that he was glad now that he did not get the Yankee manager job. He said he needs to deal with things at home.
I think Clemens is guilty even though McNamee has very little credibility to me. However, the Mitchell report is so biased against NY players because the only two dealers caught were based here.
The public would have been better served by not mentioning any names at all. My guess is there were 5-10 players on average on each team doing HGH or Roids. So the fact that Clemens has to defend himself and everyone else gets a pass is a complete injustice to Roger.
That being said, he would have saved himself a lot of grief by just admitting and asking forgiveness. He should have learned that lesson by watching Bonds and Giambi the last few years. He obviously has a huge ego thinking he can beat the charges, but let’s be honest, you have to believe he did it. It sure would be strange if his personal trainer was giving it to all his other clients but him.
Pete, that is professional-grade satire. I know, you’re a professional writer — but most pro’s cannot get close to even the semi-interesting stuff.
Jeff,
All his other clients? you mean Pettite and Knoblauch? If there were dozens of other guys who all admitted it and Clemens was the only one… then maybe. Am I missing some other guys who he gave PED’s to that are in the report?
I agree that he could be guilty. I think the main reason the report is a joke is because its based on such questionable evidence and there is a ton of suspicious activity around the report. And i agree with you 100% that names should have been excluded.
Well, this contradicts what he told Mitchell.
In the report, McNamee testified that after 2001, he neither injected with, or even discussed, steroids/HGH.
Now McNamee is testifying that Roger had him inject Mrs. Rocket for her hot photo in 2003.
Mitchell said that McNamee would be prosecuted by the feds “if he was not truthful.” Now that he’s not been truthful, the Feds really do need to go after him, or else that was just B.S. by Mitchell.
george,
further, if the feds asked for the whole truth, and nothing but the truth from mcnamee…. and he declined to tell them he had physical “evidence”, i dont see how that can possibly not be considered lying and in violation of his agreement.
McNamee keeps talking and his story is looking like swiss cheese.
What I don’t understand is why so many people keep saying Clemens should just admit that he used and be done with it. That is all assuming that he actually did the drugs. What if he didn’t? Should he still admit he used them?
All of the other trainers who worked with Clemens say that he exhibited no signs of using steroids or HGH. Are they all lying as well?
It’s Clemens’s story that is looking like swiss cheese.
That secretly recorded tape that his lawyer played made McNamee look more credible and Clemens less credible.
McNamee hasn’t been caught in a lie yet.
Peter, Don’t blame Mitchell for doing Bud Selig’s dirty work.
whoa,
Mitchell has been caught withholding evidence, which can be considered lying under the circumstances.
he was told to tell the truth by the government in exchange for leniancy. if he didnt tell the truth, he would go to jail.
dont you think, if faced with that predicament, you would disclose that you had physical evidence that was not only pertinent but the most important part of your argument?
that is shady, questionable, and absolutely can be considered lying in this case.
*Mcnamee
not mitchell
though im sure mitchell has lied before as well
whoa,
also please explain how the phone call made clemens look worse? i dont think it did much of anything. both men were told what to do and what to say by their attorneys. it didnt show anything except that both men had been coached.
Boston Dave,
What evidence did Mitchell withhold?
Oh, you meant McNamee.
That enables me to answer both of your posts with one reply.
My perception of that secretly recorded conversation is that McNamee came across as a man who desperately wanted to protect Clemens, a man he had looked up to, but he had reached a point where he could no longer do that because it would have meant going to jail for him, thereby leaving his family without financial support.
That can been seen in the way he plaintively said: “What do you want me to do. Tell me what you want me to do.”
Consequently, it doesn’t take much of a leap of logic to understand that he told the Feds everything he knew, but he didn’t want to bury Clemens by revealing that he had bloody syringes.
Now, I don’t know what the exact terms of his constructive plea arrangement with the Feds said, but my guess is that his failure to tell them about the syringes is not material because it merely supports his testimony against Clemens, it doesn’t change it’s underlying content.
As for what I would do, I don’t know because I don’t look up to pro-athletes. But given the level of admiration he displayed in that secretly recorded telephone conversation, if I, like McNamee, thought that Clemens showed him how to raise his kids, I can understand how he would do everything he could to stay out of jail while not throwing the kitchen sink at him.
But, as Jon Heyman has reported, after he found out that Clemens released that tape, which was about his sick son, McNamee decided that if Clemens wanted to stoop to that level, then he would to. That’s why he has now revealed the blood evidence and the info on Mrs. C.
btw, Clemens has said that if he had known that McNamee had implicated him to Mitchell that he would have cooperated, but we now know that he did know because: 1) Mitchell contacted the MLBPA and they contacted Clemens, and 2) Clemens sent his PIs to talk to McNamee about the report before it came out.
Also, Clemens said to Mike Wallace that he could never get syringes, but then admitted that he used syringes for B12 and Lidocaine.
Now those appear to be material lies.
whoa,
that is your perception but there is nothing in the call to support that. the fact that both men were coached by attorneys is the most important part of it all. mcnamee was acting, as was clemens for the most part. they tried to bait the other guy and failed. dont read anything into that call.
i dont care whether its material or not. if the feds demand the truth or mcnamee goes to jail, and he withholds evidence, his credibility is immediately in question. period. you cant have it both ways. he withheld the single most important part of his case against clemens.
bottom line:
everything you said could be true. yet i can give an entirely different view and that could also be true. anybody here to claims to know the truth is a fool. and the fact that there is so much evidence to argue either side… i think we should let it play out and stop judging.
that said, its sad that so many people are convinced that roger is guilty. i think there is a word for that…. ill go with ignorant. but there are plenty others that fit.
First, on the Ms. Google “fat burning HGH” and you’ll see that such behavior is taking place. Not saying this happened with her – and george’s point about McNamee’s timing statement is a problem if borne out, but such a quibble that its impact will be minimal in the only current relevant court in the case, the court of public opinion built on short attention span.
Roger has every right to fight these charges, and the responsibility to if he’s innocent. He also has plenty of motivation to fight, whether guilty or innocent. Pettite’s corroboration doesn’t help perceptually, but is meaningless in fact.
Clearly there is a marketplace perception that HGH has some properties, either curative, cosmetic, or performance enhancing, that are worthwhile. Right or wrong, folks are pursuing it, and not just in sports. It could be blind belief trumping examination, but the fact is there haven’t been many out of the box studies on these substances since steroids are branded as controlled substances – DRUGS – and our current approach to such is ban first, ask questions later. A big inhibition to research. HGH is a different matter, and you can bet if there’s a market there will be studies. Interesting that the s*** has come down on Botox today. Testing prior to marketing for cosmetic oriented products isn’t our strong suit.
I read a great and very long article that took this issue on in incredible detail with a huge cache of supporting documentation. If I can find a link its very much worth a read and I’ll post it in this string later.
Yes ! The Chinese New Year is upon us. The year of the rat as evidenced in Washington, D.C.
As promised above:
http://steroids-and-baseball.com/
It’s a pretty long read,and that’s without going into the supporting docs. Do with it what you will. The conclusions are very interesting.
thanks for the link, nyyfan
ill check it out
Boston Dave,
Only one man knew that the conversation was being recorded, and that was Clemens, who was clearly coached. I don’t know why McNamee would have been coached given that he didn’t know that he was being recorded. It seemed that he merely wanted help with his son, however naive that may have been.
The single most important part of his testimony was the allegations of PED usage, because if he had merely submitted the syringes without alleging that Clemens had used PEDS in his testimony, the syringes would not have inculpated Clemens.
The materiality standard is critical when assessing truthfulness. Absent materiality the failure to reveal the existence of the syringes can be viewed as a mere omission.
Again, we are in no position to assess it because we don’t know what the four corners of the plea agreement stated.
As I have said, given the cloud of suspicion that permeates MLB, and the unwillingness of the MLBPA to take any affirmative steps to uncover what went on in the PED era, I think the players have made their own beds and should not be surprised that so much of the public thinks they were users.
That’s why I think the clean players have been remiss because they did not force the union to take steps to protect them. Instead Fehr and Orza have acted like defense attorneys.
If Boston is a playoff team in 2008 (key word-IF), Schilling will have a uniform jersey with a red catsup stain on the right shoulder.
http://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Catsup
whoa,
are you that naive that you think mcnamee’s attorneys didnt know about the call? it wasnt some random call. mcnamee had been texting roger to set up a call. do you honestly believe mcnamee called roger on the phone, in the midst of all of this, and figured he shouldnt bother telling his attorneys?
please.
whoa,
a mere omission? is that a joke?
if i were a witness to a murder and the police interviewed me, and i failed to tell them that i videotaped the whole thing, is that a mere omission?
cmon now. maybe roger is guilty. but you are starting to flail helplessly with your arguments.
Boston Dave,
I have no idea, but that one person knew it was being recorded and the other didn’t was the most important characteristic of that phone call. Everything else was background noise.
I have also heard that Ms. Clemens used hairspray…and mayonnaise.
I just thought that all the folks that find her HGH use interesting would find those tidbits interesting, as well.
Not sure if this was posted before….but not only did Hughes change his number to #34…But Kennedy will wear #31…Henn #30…..Ohlendorf #39…..Nick Green #12….Chris Woodward #11….Hawkins #22
Boston Dave,
If you were a witness to a murder and failed to tell that about the video, but you produced it at a later date, they would still view it, and they would still use it as evidence against the person you implicated.
If I’m flailing, you are swinging and missing.
I don’t write in often, however, I feel I must. I developed tendonitis in my knees recently and my father suggested I get a hold of McNamee. As long as i bring a coke can with me, all problems will be solved!!
Jenna,
If you want to get a hold of McNamee, call Clemens. I hear they’re close.
McNamee the ex-narc, who according to his lawyer always thinks about evidence, knew for 99% sure that the call from Clemens was being taped. Why? He texted Roger to set up the call, just like he texted all the people he locked up during his three year, abbreviated career as a narc. That’s how narcs work, setting up calls and meets and buys and taping conversations. McNamee is no babe in the woods when it comes to taping telephone calls and inducing targets to say the right things.
whoa,
you’re posts have officially passed into the realm of comedy.
you are now defending that McNamee withholding the most critical evidence in the entire case is a “mere omission” and and no big deal.
i have an open mind and am willing to accept that i do not know the answer. you, well…
thank you murphydog.
whoa was having a hard time getting that.
murphydog,
what are your thoughts on McNamee apparently waiting until this late to reveal his “evidence” rather than disclose it up front? is that a big deal or not?
“If I’m flailing, you are swinging and missing.”
whoa, that’s what you dont seem to understand.
I am choosing NOT to swing. I don’t know who is telling the truth. You apparently have chosen to swing without having anything but your “perceptions” which as murphydog pointed out, are quite likely wrong. didnt see that curveball did ya? and that’s strike three. find another topic to bungle.
Needles in a crushed soda can are the equivalent of a video-taped confession?
Well, there isn’t usually a chain of custody issue in a taped confession. There is a significant chain of custody issue here, especially given McNamee’s motivation. But putting that aside, is there some rush to judgment here or shouldn’t we do a little analysis first?
I think it is more likely than not that Clemens used PEDs but I also think it is more likely than not that McNamee is not the victim some are making him out to be
McNamee may not have known Clemens was taping him but listening to the phone call, I think McNamee was probably taping it too. Once Clemens went public with it, McNamee was better served to play the victim rather than admit they were both trying to do the same thing.
McNamee is a trained undercover cop and who better would know how to try to get someone to say something that could incriminate themselves without the use of entrapment. The repetitive asking of “what do you want me to do” was more than the rantings of a father who claims that his son was dying of seliac disease (an allergy to wheat products?). McNamee initiated contact for Clemens to get in touch with him and using his sons illness as bait is beyond low in my book. Even lower than dragging Clemens wife into the discussion today.
As for the needles and paraphenalia that McNamee squirreled away for 7+ years, without Clemens as a client, where was McNamees income going to come from? He was fired from the Yankees and St. Johns University following the rape allegations being discovered. No team in MLB would let him anywhere near their team. Training high school athletes is less profitable and prestigous than training Clemens. I think the gauze and needles were McNamees 401K plan and he planned to blackmail Clemens down the road otherwise why wouldn’t he have told the Feds about them when he was spilling his guts 6 months ago. Not exactly the purest of actions.
If the Mitchell Report truly was written as a way for baseball to improve on past mistakes, it should have explored how MLB got to where they were and listed suggestions on steps to improve going forward. Naming names was counterproductive to the stated intent of the report. Instead of talking about how to make sure players are clean now, everyone is focused on players who were dirty then.
Boston Dave,
As I told you and have told murphydog in the past, we are not viewing Clemens in a vacuum. Instead, we are viewing him, Bonds, McGwire, Canseco, etc. in era of MLB that was tainted by at least fairly widespread use of PED use.
When you have a person like Roger Clemens say that he would have cooperated with Mitchell with regard to McNamee’s allegations if only he had known, but then we found out that he did know in advance, and when you have Clemens tell Mike Wallace that he could never get needles but then admit that he had McNameee shoot him up with B12 and Lidocaine, you don’t have a very credible person.
You must have lost track of the count, because strike one has yet to be thrown.
murphydog,
Boston Dave brought up the videotape analogy, not me.
Dave:
The delayed disclosure affects McNamee’s general credibility. Did he withhold the info from Mitchell? Why? Wasn’t he asked to disclose everything he had? Why hold back on Mitchell – - (What are you holding back today, Mr. McNamee?) Plainly he was looking to blackmail Rocket, excuse me, I mean seek a monetary settlement with Roger, at some later date using the threat of the release of this stuff. Hardin won’t let McNamee hide from that perception. It will affect McNamee when he takes the stand to provide the chain of custody.
The facts do not in any way support an allegation of blackmail
If McNamee wanted to blackmail Clemens, what was he waiting for?
He had years to do it, and he had very little money while Clemens had tons. Yet he didn’t do it.
He could have done it when Mitchell started his investigation before he was implicated by Radomski, but he didn’t.
He could have done it when Clemens and Pettitte’s names were erroneously named in a LAT article after the Grimsley episode, but he didn’t.
It’s absurd to allege that.
Pete, let’s get to something more relevant – how about a link to those Debbie photos?
While we know that Clemens taped the phone conversation and therefore was very careful with what he said, how do we know that McNamee didn’t tape this phone call as well?
Think about how McNamee saved the evidence, or at least claims to have saved it. If a man would think that he might need evidence 8 years ago, why would he be so stupid that he wouldn’t tape a conversation that he was initiating? The two things clearly don’t gel.
Just because McNamee didn’t play the tape of the conversation doesn’t mean he didn’t tape it. He was working it very hard to get Clemens to say something that could have been used against him. He had already threatened legal action. Who would be as careful with what he was saying if he didn’t think he was being taped?
McNamee keeps adding things as he is going along. The extras keep coming as time goes and there are questions being raised. Clemens isn’t adding “new” evidence as this is progressing other than using information that is already out there.
Another thing. If McNamee was so concerned about being screwed at a later time by Clemens denying PED use, where is the journal entries that show “today I injected Clemens with HGH in the right buttocks.”? On one hand you have a guy apparently so paranoid that he is concerned with saving gauze, syringes (in a beer can no less), vials and the frickin’ beer can, yet he doesn’t document it all?
Isn’t that a huge disconnect?
McNamee used his son’s condition as a pretext for getting Clemens to call him. Yet he doesn’t get his son on the phone?
I just don’t understand how people can use McNamee’s background as a police officer to give reason why the “evidence” he gave in is valid, yet discount that he was a policeman when it comes to the phone call.
Radomski the dealer gets a walk. McNamee, the date rapist and HGH and Steroid source, will get a walk too. Clemens, an alleged user, is irreparably damaged even if it goes no further.
This whole thing stunk from word one, and there will be no winners. Nobody is clean. Not Mitchell, Selig, McNamee, Radmoski, Clemens, Congress, Fehr, nobody. It’s now a matter of waking up and acknowledging that they poured gasoline on the fire. It’s time to put an end to this now before it becomes any worse. Cooler heads need to step in and mediate some way out of this for all concerned because everybody is acting like a stupid kid. It cannot get much worse.
Maybe Obama or McCain would like to take a shot at this. Maybe Hillary is the best choice… she’s used to a man lying to her face. Whoever the mediator, everybody gets in a room, everybody has their say off the record. Then everybody shuts the hell up, the lawsuits are dropped, the investigations are closed. A final statement on the whole episode is written by the mediator as a footnote to the Mitchell report and everybody signs off and and we go on.
Clemens is already damaged severely, perhaps beyond repair, even if he is ultimately cleared on the syringes. How much more sewage has to be spilled? Enough. A pox on all their houses.
Whoa, the biggest payday McNamee could get from blackmail would come just before Clemens is up for the HOF vote. He was asking Clemens for things and getting things from him. Why stop the flow of items?
whoa, listen to murphydog.. he knows more about this than either of us.
i also bet murphydog isnt going to make any definitive decisions yet… which is your biggest weakness in this case.
“The facts do not in any way support an allegation of blackmail
If McNamee wanted to blackmail Clemens, what was he waiting for?”
Oh c’mon. It’s hardly absurd. Why was he keeping that material and holding it back? The gravy train only stopped when Radomski opened his big mouth. Until then it was McNamee the pilot fish clinging on to Roger and Andy. Once Radmoski blew his cover, McNamee had a choice to make: cooperate with the Feds or go to jail. Either way he loses his job with Roger and now he needs money desperately.
McNamee was trying to finesse cooperating with Mitchell while holding a little back for insurance, hoping Rocket would “do the right thing” and help him out in exchange for the “evidence.” But Roger blew him off and that’s when McNamee decided to bring forward the needles. They lost their monetary value and now were weapons.
Those are the facts that support a claim of intent to blackmail.
Whoa, when did Clemens say that he provided the needles for the B12 shots and Lidocaine shots?
McNamee said that Clemens gave him the needles and drugs to inject. If that is a lie, then how does Clemens statement become a lie?
McNamee might have provided the needles for giving B12 and Lidocaine shots. McNamee had his sources for procuring these things, why is it then a stretch for those items to have come from McNamee?
Boston Dave,
I don’t think so.
I am sick and tired of players using the “I’m really, really, really, really mad” defense, made so popular by Palmeiro.
If you want to believe their protestations, fine. I find it offensively laughable.
Old Goat,
His DNA samples may no longer be intact (it has been like eight years to date). Clemens may play until he is 50. Add the mandatory five year waiting period.
I just don’t find that plausible.
whoa,
your prejudice, ignorance and closed-mindedness is pitiful. how about your close the lid on your laptop and go find something else to prejudge. you have already made up your mind and, to no surprise, you aren’t convincing anyone of anything. there’s a great movie on HBO that just started. shawshank redemption. go watch that. what’s that movie about again?
best of luck to you in your future, closed-minded, endeavors…
whoa, quit being a contrarian d-bag. you lost the argument now be a man and let it rest.
try to end the night looking a little better than nypd113, who is so steretypically a dumb, criminally inclined cop from boston its hilarious. cant spell, has no concept of jurisprudence and had such a “calling” to the career that he retired on a full pension when he shot himself in the foot one night, yet now works as a bouncer in queens, trying to have underage chicks blow him to get into a bar.
finally, how funny that he deems mentioning he is a cop as a personal attack when thats all he talks about here.
murphydog,
I believe that he was saving it to protect his butt if Clemens ever tried to scapegoat him for his drug use. After all, Clemens is a famous, well thought of, well heeled professional athlete. McNamee is a nobody from the other side of the tracks.
Let’s not forget: That is what actually happened.
McNamee lost his job with the Yankees, and iirc, he lost his job with SJU. The guy needed money. A few hundred grand could have changed his life. Yet he demurred.
As I said above, it’s clear to me from the secretly recorded phone call that McNamee worshiped Roger. That it was killing him to out him. So he thought that if he merely gave Mitchell oral testimony and kept the supporting physical evidence hidden, Clemens’s rep might take a hit, but at least it would afford him an opportunity to keep the matter at a “he said, he said” level. That was naive.
Roger didn’t blow him off. He publicly revealed a phone conversation in which McNamee, again naively, tried to enlist Roger’s help for his infirmed son. That is what set McNamee off and motivated him to go nuclear.
As I mentioned some time ago, Clemens, the multi- multi-millionaire that he is, chose to get injected with prescription drugs by a non-physician. That tends to indicate, imo, that Clemens understood just how sordid an affair this matter was, and makes it more likely that it is Clemens who has a major credibility problem.
whoa:
Listen…you have your view and a lot of people share your position and I do defend your right to have it. It’s nothing personal at all on my part.
I’m sick of the way everybody in the case has conducted themselves, but I’m especially not fond of informants who used to be cops, and former Civil Rights lawyers who try to prop up scummers like McNamee and try to make this case into a fight about the Rich versus the Poor.
I take a very dim view of the methods employed to take Clemens down when this was supposed to be about Steroids in MLB. Mitchell lost his way, made some dubious choices and his report wound up being a head shot at Clemens. Maybe Roger did use PEDs, maybe he didn’t. But the path taken to get there matters a great deal more than whether he did or didn’t; this was not supposed to be a report primarily about one guy.
This is Government and MLB partnering up to go very wrong. IMO, that’s the fight the very principled civil rights lawyers ought to be taking on.
Boston Dave,
I have found that when a knave like you can’t make a factual rebuttal that he resorts to name calling.
Congrats, for buttressing that theory.
Now take off the big, floppy shoes and the flower that shoots water, have some milk and cookies and go to bed.
whoa,
what’s it like? being a brainless sheep that is?
Whoa, I didn’t say it was a good idea, but we are also talking about a person who would keep these kinds of things in the first place. We are also talking about a person who has shown a propensity to lie.
McNamee even saved the beer can he claims the syringes were put in.
Thinking on that…even though the lawyers said the reason he got them from Clemens was because McNamee had a needle disposal box at home, McNamee has to take the stuff out of the trash, in a beer can. If Clemens gave them to him because he knew McNamee had a disposal box for them, why did McNamee have to take them – contained in a beer can – out of the trash?
Isn’t that more inconsistent than what Clemens statement were?
whoa:
I hear you, but you gotta trust me on this. The McNamee you heard on the taped phone conversation is McNamee the former narc trying to get Roger to say the wrong thing. I have heard too many undercover narcotics tapes to believe otherwise. He was playing Roger and Roger was trying to play him back. But like I said, just my opinion.
a “knave”? dude, you are the biggest loser of the night hands down. shouldnt you be rollng a 16 sided die in a basement now dressed like an elf?
murphydog,
I respect you and your position.
I would also equate Hardin with Emery (because, as an atty, I have found his conduct to be the most egregious), but other than that, I have no problem with what you said.
EYT,
Ouch. You’re wit is unparalleled.
whoa,
I’ll let your posts speak for themselves. the only thing you’ve convinced people of is that you are convinced roger is guilty and nothing anybody says will change your mind.
you see, one of the common qualities in intelligent people is the ability to have an open mind and not rush to judgement. whether that means examining more facts, trying more experiments, testing, etc. its not your fault that you aren’t intelligent but that doesnt mean you cant someday learn to have an open mind.
Boston Dave,
You’re the expert. You tell me.
You lost dude, deal with it like a man.
whoa:
Emery, Hardin, Ward the hole lot of them… they need to find their clients a way out, not dig the hole deeper.
G’night all.
whoa, the world is in a sad state if you are an actual attorney and not the 17 yr old loser we all know you are. you “may” one day become and attorney, but there is no way you are one now. all the evidence (your immaturity, ignorance, and lack of worldly sense) supports my claim. now go back to your high school debate teacher on monday and tell him he was correct and “blogging” can be a useful way to train for the big match.
Old Goat,
I’m not saying that McNamee isn’t a contemptible human being. I almost find him to be irrelevant.
As I said above, what bothers me most is athletes whose primary defense is their level of anger.
EYT,
Res ipsa loquitur.
That speaks both to the fact that I am an atty, and that you are whatever you are in your cyber reality.
Whoa, I listened to that same conversation you did, and there was nothing in it that lead me to believe that McNamee had no idea he was on tape.
If you are buying that act then I’m sorry but you are gullible. The man used to set people up on the phone when he was a cop, a narc. He is no virgin to this stuff and I wouldn’t lay a wager down that he wasn’t taping it himself.
McNamee used his son’s condition in an effort to set up a phone conversation with Clemens. He used his son in a nefarious manner, yet you see it the complete opposite. McNamee wasn’t calling Clemens because he wanted to patch thing up or get a pep talk for his son. He was looking to get Clemens to offer him money or something so he could bring out the tape.
NY and Texas have the same laws regarding taping phone calls.
You have to put the whole thing together. On one hand you talk about how clever McNamee is in keeping this evidence from 8 years ago, knowing that Clemens is going to lie about using PEDs. Then when it comes to the phone call, McNamee is a bumpkin who forgot all his NYPD training and had no idea he was being taped. So now McNamee is bipolar or something? The two personalities don’t gel.
whoa,
i lost? lost what? i have reserved judgement on this. i am not in a situation to win or lose.
if anything, it’s the closed-minded people like yourself that tend to lose. racism, women’s rights, even gays will one day have equal rights. i know that makes you unhappy. but i am sure you’ll find others to persecute.
or thats your debate team’s motto.
i know latin too. i took it in college. tell me what its like when you go next year.
Old Goat,
Maybe I am naive, because from what I have read, I think in Heyman’s column, McNamee’s son is or was actually sick.
I don’t view it as clever, I view it as an act of base self-preservation. In other words, the survival instinct, which is a very primitive drive.
EYT,
I don’t know Latin, just the legal words. But whatever floats your sinking boat.
Whoa, wouldn’t you be angry if you were accused of something you didn’t do and had it broadcast around the world?
I don’t know if Clemens is guilty or not. Given all that is out there, I am more inclined to believe Clemens. There are plenty of reasons for McNamee to have lied. While Clemens might very well be lying, I don’t see it as likely that he would given what has happened to Bonds and to Stewart. I am sure Clemens lawyers grilled him pretty well on what he was facing.
this guy is a former cop. my first thought was “planted evidence” because thats how many cops get convictions or get paid off. cops are by and large not real intelligent.
“As I said above, what bothers me most is athletes whose primary defense is their level of anger.”
uh, newsflash dude. first people said “Roger is guilty because he wasnt angry enough”. then it was “well, if he is innocent then he will sue”… next “well, if he is innocent then he will testify under oath”
whether Roger is guilty or not, he has done everything an innocent man would do.
Boston Dave,
You really need to be able to differentiate the general from the specific.
Racism, sexism, and prejudice based on sexual preference are acts that victimize individuals based on their status.
I am merely expressing an opinion about one man based on his conduct given the backdrop of the PED era.
Consequently, it’s really sui generis.
whoa,
so what was the point of your latin phrase? how does that prove you are an attorney? no wonder you believe mcnamee, you have no idea what constitutes “evidence”.
you are all over the place son. drink another mountain dew and buck up or just hop into your harry potter pj’s and call it a night.
Murphydog,
While I agree that all parties bear responsibility for previously looking the other way, I credit Selig for not sweeping this under the rug now and for doing what he can to lance the boil.
I also think people are underestimating the deterence effect this spectacle will have on future PED use.
If nothing else, dragging these guys before Congress is forcing the other players who have used (and are still using) to take a long hard look at their Radomskis and Mcnamees and ask themselves, “Can I trust this scumbag not to rat me out at the first bump in the road?”
I think a clear message has been sent that the league now takes this stuff seriously. Will guys on the fringes continue to cheat? Of course. But choirboys like Pettitte and aging stars with an eye on their legacy like Clemens, will at least have to think twice, which is more than we had pre-Mitchell Report.
I’m not denying that McNamee’s son is sick. He is according to a number of accounts. Its also not an illness that generally leads to death, even though it is a serious disease. The point is, McNamee using that to get a call set up.
How likely would you be to call someone who named you in a report as McNamee did to Clemens? How much more likely are you going to call if you are told about how a child is dying and wants to hear from you? The set up of the call was McNamee playing on Clemens sympathy to get him to call. How many times did McNamee say “here’s my son so you can talk to him”? It didn’t go that way. That’s why I think McNamee was taping the conversation as well.
whoa,
why are you even posting here?
a) your decision has been made and it’s final
b) nobody… nobody, not a single person has been convinced of any of the crap you’ve been spewing all night
so, you’re not learning anything because you already know everything and nobody else sees your opinions are more than comedic drivel.
why don’t you go post on an Iraqi blog denouncing women who don’t wear a headscarf? there are sure to a bunch of people like you there. closed-minded pricks.
whoa,
both generally AND specifically, not a single person in this entire blog has agreed with your prejudice opinions. not a single person in this blog has added to your views (because they are already decided). so again, why dont you find another topic to prejudge?
Boston Dave,
I believe that an innocent man would not have waited for almost a week to make a statement after the release of the Mitchell Report, and instead of first speaking through his agent, then his attorney, he would have immediately spoken out himself.
That’s what David Justice did. He went on YES the night the report was released and took questions (albeit via phone).
And when he decided to speak to the press, an innocent man would have chosen a journalist under 60 to interview him, not the 89 year old Mike Wallace.
I also believe that an innocent and very rich man would have had a physician inject him with B12 and Lidocaine, not the scummy McNamee.
This is why I think Clemens is lying: McNamee would have benefitted a whole lot more if he’d said Clemens never used.
Someone on WFAN this morning made a very good point. There is no reason McNamee would be saying all this stuff if it wasn’t true. He had it absolutely made when he was getting every handout in creation from Clemens over the years. Concert tickets, fishing equipment, maybe even better medical attention for his kid. He’s going to give all that up so that he can betray his benefactor, waste away any money he has on a legal team, and never get employed anywhere ever again while his child is seriously ill?
EYT,
You don’t even present a challenge.
randyhater,
you are most likely right. i still think leaving the names out of the report and putting olympic style drug testing in place was the way to go.
do you think if clemens cannot be proven to have used PEDs and continues to deny using them that the Mitchell report will be invalidated somewhat? i guess the effect may end up being the same regardless.
Boston Dave,
You may believe that subscribing to a group think mentality equals rightness of opinion. I don’t.
While you accuse me of intolerance, it is you who can’t tolerate the opinion of someone who doesn’t agree with your position, so maybe you are the one should follow your own advice.
whoa,
your beliefs are wrong.
a) thats what YOU might have done. but the fact that clemens first consulted an attorney before speaking out is not unrealistic and probably for the best
b) what percentage of players had personal physicians in the clubhouse giving them their injections? i doubt many if any. it was common for them to have the team trainer or a personal trainer help them. money wasn’t the issue. this was commonplace. also, mcnamee, i believe, technically has a PhD.
i love how anybody who is rich or has money is considered a fraud if they dont spend it in every way. any shortcuts they take and they are cheap or in this case “guilty”. well, i guess that is how closed-minded people think.
whoa,
i allow you the right to your opinion. if your opinion is based on ignorance, that’s fine too. it happens all the time. but dont expect others to accept it. the fact is, you dont know if roger is guilty or not. i don’t know. yet you are adament in your opinion. i am willing to accept that i dont know and not crucify roger until i do. sadly, there are many people out there who take the same approach that you do. as i pointed out, those do include racists and other closed-minded groups.
Poll for the group:
Do you think McNamee have been given immunity if his original list had not included Clemens?
murphydog – You are right that nobody is clean here, but there are degrees of dirty. Roger is a good ole boy, ultra-competative, redneck athlete. At worst, he cheated in a profession where more then 50% cheat, and if you include greenies, red juice and every other form of cheating, the number is probably much higher.
As recently as the previous congressional hearing, Selig, who gets paid close to $10m/yr to oversee MLB, denied knowledge of or responsibility for, the PEDs issue in MLB. In the last hearing, he fessed up. Will he be called out for lying in the first hearings? Course not. Will he be fired, smeared or otherwise punished? Course Not. Fehr? Owners? Punished? Course not.
McNamee is a known scumbag. It’s documented in a number of places. He gave a woman who was a Yankee employee a near fatal dose of a date-rape drug and then raped her near unconscious body. While he denied it to the police, it was witnessed by a number of people, including 2 licienced security guards. Like many rape victims, she did not press charges for many obvious reasons including fear of losing her job with the Yankees and because she really didn’t remember much of the actual event.
So Roger is guilty of cheating. I smoked lots of pot as a kid. We are both truly hardened criminals. Meanwhile, McNamee may see no jail time or fines, Bud and Company get to enjoy their millions, and Roger and a number of other players, like the low level troops at Abu Ghraib, will forever be remembered as the bad guys.
This whole thing is sickening. The concept of true Justice is nowhere to be found.
whoa,
i didnt even say your opinion was wrong, just limited.
but i did say that you have made up your mind on it. you are not convincing anybody. why would you post in a blog when the only result is futility?
That doesn’t make me wrong, BD.
a) You have no idea what the actual chronology of Clemens’s thought process was. You are merely speculating.
b) So because other players have non-physicians give them injections (again speculation), probably in contravention of the law, that makes it OK? I don’t think that McNamee has a PhD.
Again, it is you who is close-minded because cannot accept the fact that my opinion differs from yours.
You really need to stop projecting your shortcomings on to me.
I’m not as rich as Clemens, but I have worked hard enough that when I am faced with a choice between opting for the more risky, less costly route, and the less risky, more costly option, I opt for the later, especially when my health is involved.
One more thing: The majority of people in public opinion polls think that Clemens uses PEDs.
So everyone is close-minded except you.
I still wonder if McNamee knew that he had to deliver something big in order to get his immunity — or whether anyone on Mitchell’s team helped McNamee understand what they needed in order to justify their $20 million project.
What would the public reaction have been to the Mitchell report had Clemens not been there?
Would McNamee have been so useful to the Feds working side by side with Mitchell if his biggest deliverable were 2 Pettitte hgh shots?
Still wondering.
BD,
Why do you think I am trying to convince anyone?
You post some strange stuff.
OldYanksFan – I think actually that the woman McNamee “allegedly” (yeah, right) raped didn’t press charges because she had been having an affair with one of the guys on the Yankee staff who was married, and she didn’t want to expose him and ruin his marriage. I’m about 99% sure that she wasn’t employed by the Yankees.
whoa,
i have to go to bed and dont have time to continue to show that you are incorrect in virtually all of your assumptions.
so i will just make you look like a fool one last time:
“McNamee began referring to himself as Dr. McNamee in his side gigs. He was featured in InVite’s promotional magazine as “Dr. Brian McNamee, Ph.D,” used the e-mail address “McNameePHD,” and told people he had earned his doctorate”
and you sir, are wrong yet again.
BD,
1) Did he actually have a PhD? I think the answer is no.
2) Even if he did, what PhDs are allowed to administer injections?
So again, I’m not wrong unless he actually had a PhD that legally permitted him to inject.
If that can be proven, I will admit I am wrong on that narrow topic.
OldYanksFan-
Yeah but remember Mcnamee did this because if he didn’t cover his @$$ he would have wind up in jail an HGH Pettitte and Roger would have gotten away with it and be remembered as clean players lieing to us for a long time.McNaee is a scumbag but Roger kept him as a friend that says alot about Roger being best friends with a guy who raped a girl.He needed a scape goat to do his dirty work.
Like HGH Pettitte.
Everbody but the fans are guilty.Yes we all did bad things but unlike Roger,Pettitte if we cheated in our jobs we go to jail if we put harmful things to our body we get in some sort of trouble.I hope everybody who’s responsible gets in trouble.Hey Wells was drunk at a game and we didn’t find out many years later but he got in trouble.Why shouldn’t Pettitte get fined.
Say it ain’t so, there are very strong possibilities why McNamee is lying.
Mitchell used the Grimsley affidavit in his report as one of the sources that claimed Clemens used PEDs. We know now that wasn’t true. What McNamee was told was that he had to tell the whole truth or he was going down. How do we know Mitchell didn’t specifically site the Grimsley affidavit, as reported by the LA newspaper, as his basis to bring up Clemens name? Given what we know, Pettitte used HGH.
What if McNamee told him about Pettitte but didn’t say a word about Clemens, and Mitchell told him he didn’t believe him. That he didn’t believe that Clemens was clean, after all it was in the Grimsley affidavit. Is it that hard to believe that he felt pressure to then give a story about Clemens use?
While we don’t know what Mitchell did in those interviews, I am sure he wasn’t all that concerned about the law. After all, he wasn’t concerned about removing due process from every one he named in the report regardless of the sources he had. He used rumor on second hand things heard.
Once McNamee headed down that road, how do you stop? If he lied to protect himself from what he thought was a trip to jail (he did have an agreement on this, and with all he said about his dealings he was sunk), wouldn’t he have to keep on lying to keep himself out of jail?
I’ve known plenty of people who have lied when there was no obvious reason to as well. What if he resented Clemens because of all Clemens had and he didn’t?
Just because normal people wouldn’t place themselves in a situation like that, it doesn’t mean that McNamee wouldn’t. Remember the man and all we know of him. A guy who might have raped a person isn’t exactly one I would trust to tell the truth.
whoa,
If Clemens believed McNamee had a PhD, then what difference does it make? Have you ever done background checks on all of your doctors?
and yes, he did have a PhD. It wasn’t exactly from a top flight school… I believe the same one Dr. Phil got his from. regardless, like virtually all of your assumptions…
“I also believe that an innocent and very rich man would have had a physician inject him with B12 and Lidocaine, not the scummy McNamee.”
…are WRONG. you’ve been exposed dude, head to the next topic and try to fool someone else.
gotta head to sleep.
bottom line:
there are arguments to be made in favor of clemens being guilty.
there are just as many arguments to be made that would say he’s innocent.
does anybody here know? I doubt it.
So why judge the guy until we do?
nite.
BD,
Do you have a link that states that he actually earned a PhD, otherwise it’s like virtually all of your assumptions, based on air.
Again, which PhDs cannot legally inject. I would appreciate a link here as well.
You aren’t making any sense. You just rant.
BD,
It’s an opinion. I’m not a member of Congress or sitting on a jury. You really need to chill and stick to established facts.
whoa,
I will provide a link that shows McNamee has a PhD if you promise to leave.
otherwise, you arent worth the time.
Boston Dave,
Shy of a confession, what would it take to convince you that Clemens is guilty? His personal trainer of 11 years (who he moved from Canada, to NY, to Houston) is an admitted and confirmed PED dealer. Clemens continued to associate with the guy after he was implicated in a date rape, going so far as to allow him to stay in his house in Houston, where his wife and children live. The trainer gave evidence against Clemens’ best friend and training partner, who has since confirmed that every word was true. Clemens has admitted that the guy injected him with drugs, and he’s also admitted, in the 60 Minutes interview, that he was in the habit of taking drugs, at the possible expense of his future health, so as to improve his performance on the baseball field. Clemens has a long history of bending the rules (drilling opposing batters) and lying about it afterwards. He’s had historically unprecedented success at an advanced age. I don’t think its a rush to judgment to think he’s guilty.
Say it ain’t so – your specifics may be correct. I read a bunch of stuff a while ago and may ‘mis-remember’ a few details. But what I do remember is that he did rape that woman, but was never prosecuted, and the woman did not want to press charges.
The mind of McNamee is a place that I really don’t want to venture too far into, but the more things that come out every day, it just seems more and more unlikely that McNamee would drop dozens of lies out there as he’s getting ready to speak under oath in front of millions of viewers. He keeps giving more information (that very well could all be false) and all Clemens has done is try to bully people into believing he’s innocent.
randyhater,
i really need to go to bed but i do have an answer to that.
so pardon my brief response:
a) its possible that he played at an advanced age because he worked out harder than anybody in baseball. ARod will likely play late if he doesnt get hurt because he stays in great shape as well
b) read more or google about roger taking mcnamee back after the rape. there is much more to that story. roger refused at first.
c) former teammates of clemens (mike boddicker) said they witnessed roger receiving the b12 injections (i believe from the team trainer) when he was on the Sox and Boddicker said “Roger works out so hard he needs it to recover”
d) why didnt McNamee save Pettite’s syringes and blood?
like i said, there is so much more to this. i will wait to make judgement. i suggest you do some additional reading and research. i am guessing i’ve done quite a bit more than you have. if you want to discuss further, email daveyb411@yahoo.com. i need to head out.
c)
BD,
You are an intellectual coward.
OldYanks,
I am pretty sure he wasnt convicted of rape because the woman initially lied about why she was at the party in the first place. it was pretty clear that he did drug her but the case was thrown out. i’d need to double check.
whoa,
i give you facts that make your arguments look like creamed corn.
i get it. you’re frustrated. and it’s darn funny! haha
I wonder who is paying McNamee’s legal bills.
i gotta run whoa but when you decide to give up…
dont let the facts hit you in the ass on your way out.
I forget where I heard it, but I remember that Mitchell said that Radomski also pointed him in the direction of Clemens, so it’s likely Radomski is going to play a relatively big role in Wednesday’s hearing.
BD,
You haven’t rebutted anything.
The only thing that got creamed is you.
You’re a joke.
Whoa,
BD did get a little personal but you both did. And he did rebut a couple of your assumptions with facts that showed you were wrong. The thread has gone on for too long anyway.
PJ34,
I really think I showed a lot of patience with him.
What am I wrong about?
Re: Mitchell/Radomski, there would be no so-called Mitchell report without Radomski and McNamee. The names delivered in a pretty package with a big bow to Mitchell were the results of Jeff Novitsky’s separate investigation and affadavit with names found in Radomski’s home in 2005. Mitchell didn’t have to go in one direction or another, he just sat in his chair and collected the applause.
Well, I also think at least a few of your assumptions are a bit of a stretch but like I said, this topic seems to have been beaten to death.
“an innocent man would have chosen a journalist under 60 to interview him, not the 89 year old Mike Wallace.
It doesn’t matter how old you are. An interviewer can throw softballs at any age. That is not an indictment. It’s clear Clemens is trying to also fight a PR battle and thought this would help. Innocent or not, he will have to win in court and also in the public’s eye. Judging from your opinions, he has a long way to go.
Mel Stottlemyre said on M&MD that he saw Roger being injected with Vitamin B-12.
No word on if he saw the missus get one, too.
I also don’t think the fact that Clemens had McNamee inject him is an indictment either. Sure it could have been HGH. Or it could have been B12. If what BD said about Mike Boddicker is true, I think that is telling. This would have been back when Roger was on the Red Sox and that would also be a witness to Roger getting an injection from a team trainer who may or may not have been licensed to give injections. There just doesn’t seem to be enough to back either side right now. So I think the number of assumptions made should be limited.
mel,
That is definitely interesting. I remember when many in the public, following the 60 minutes interview, had said Roger must be guilty because nobody gets B12 shots.
PJ34,
OK, I engaged in a bit of hyperbole. I do think most people lose something off their fastball with advancing age, though, especially after 85. I don’t think too many people consider Wallace to be the first rate investigative reporter and interviewer that he was 20 years ago.
Again, every public opinion poll I have seen reveals that a majority of people do not believe him.
That doesn’t make me right, but it does lay out the landscape that he is facing.
Of course, should he prevail in court (I personally believe that the case will never reach a jury), he will convince the majority of the public of his “innocence.”
Granted, I could not sit on the jury given my point of view, but at least I can admit it.
I heard Mel. The question that wasn’t asked was; “How did you know that it was B12.”
Whoa,
If I had a gun to my head, I’d probably say he’s guilty. I don’t know how informed the public is. I certainly don’t know all the facts of the case but I imagine most people only know the headlines.
The 60 minutes show was strictly PR for Roger and ratings for CBS. I didn’t put too much into it. Wallace wasn’t going to grill Roger by any means.
I do think that Roger could be guilty and still win in court. Well, at least he may not be found to have committed perjury, which I guess is the best he can do right now.
I will say that I don’t like that Roger has become the poster boy for an issue that was rampant in the sport. I think most of the public knew players used PEDs. They knew the sport needed to be cleaned up. It seems like all of this extra stuff is unnecessary. If they had left the names out of this, recognizing that many were to blame and not some select individuals, we could move on already.
Say it ain’t so, according to the Mitchell Report Radomski supplied the drugs to McNamee, not Clemens. Radomski had no direct knowledge of who McNamee was dealing the drugs to but knew Clemens was one of McNamee’s clients.
Also in the section of the report on Clemens it sites the report that was “redacted” from the Grimsley affidavit that McNamee and Clemens were named in it. Its on page 172-3 of the full report.
I wonder why McNamee, being that he kept the vials and all, couldn’t remember which steroid he was giving Clemens. He couldn’t remember exactly how many injects either, yet he kept the needles. Just seems like he would have known being that he had that stuff.
Mmmm. You’re right, whoa. I’m not saying anything either way. I don’t even give a crap anymore. Just dropping little nuggets that I find. So not interested in getting into a cyber-tussle. I’ll leave that to the rest of you’s.
I agree that the names should have been left out, and I suspect that we have only begun to see how many people’s lives will be negatively impacted. The situation is spinning out of control.
mel-
Another crappy game for Gasol. That deal could be one of the biggest steals in a long, long time.
Buddy,
Worthless! Can’t even get the double double. Think Phoenix will do a Pau/Shaq trade?
Old Goat – I’m not denying anything you said, I just specifically remember hearing, I think on the radio, that Mitchell said he believes that Clemens took PED’s because both McNamee and Radomski named Clemens without either of them knowing the other had given Roger up.
I think the names should have been left off the report, if even for the sake of the players’ relatives, who are all probably going through hell right now, as well as teammates who are having to defend/condemn their friends to the media. Except, let’s all be honest. If there weren’t names included, no one would have cared about the Mitchell Report at all.
Agreed that the names shouldn’t have been included. It served no purpose other than cloud the issue and have it turn into a big debate over how poorly it was done. How many people even think about any of the recommendations that were in it?
I have said for a while now that he could have included some of the instances sited without any names attached. It would have given illustration to the problem and probably had a higher impact because it would have you wondering how far reaching the problem is. It would have put greater pressure on the Union to work toward proper testing.
As this report stands, it comes across as an attack against the Yankees and Mets.
As to the Radomski issue, I’m not doubting you heard it, but I think they were wrong. Its not in the report at all where Radomski states Clemens used or bought from him.
Whoa
You really are a narrow close minded person.
You ride your tiny hobby horse into the ground, completely ignoring information which does not suit your petty nasty point of view.
If Clemens is guilty he deserves whatever crap he gets and moreso.
Whatever your POV is on rerformance-enhancing drugs…you must be disgusted with Rogers performance in calling McNamee a liar.
If true, it would show Roger Clemens in a glaring spotlight of shame, perhaps beyond any other professional athelete…ever.
This “medical waste collection” is hilarious.
I didn’t think Monica Lewinsky had really held onto a dirty, semen-strained dress either….until it was proven she did.
I guess I just don’t live my life saving up stuff to produce on Jerry Springer.
Wow.
Wow…there is a lot of anti-Yankee bias on this board! Some of these arguments make no sense. It just keeps getting uglier and uglier.
I ask again…what did this Mitchell Report do EXACTLY?? Has it changed anything except to try to destroy people’s lives and the game we love??
26*
Gloria, the Mitchell Report:
1. made Mitchell some dough, and gave him an opportunity to mention “Northern Ireland” more than Rudy “Go Big Papi” Giuliani mentioned “9/11″.
2. gave the House Oversight committee another opportunity to reveal that its membership requirements apparently include in-breeding
3. revealed that the vast majority of the Baseball Writers of America are eager and willing to fuel the flames of witch hunts, and don’t care about trying to report on details.
that sums up what i’ve taken away from it, anyway. The 3rd one is the most depressing – mostly because it’s not just baseball, but it reflects the crappy quality of American journalism in general, and without better journalism democracy fails, because you need an informed public for democracy to thrive.
the fact that it named a few names – a certain percentage of whom are inevitable innocent, given the low standards of “proof” Selig allowed Mitchell to indulge in – means nothing to me. We all know some players were doing it; Mitchell, thanks to the Feds, listed a fraction of them. BFD.
Hey–
Here’s my take on the McNamee/Clemens imbroglio. I was very ready to believe McNamee’s accusations initially. A seed of doubt was planted by Clemens willingness to go soooo far out on a limb claiming his innocence, including going on national TV and testifying under oath to congress, which by the way would involve a potential jail term if he was proven to have lied under oath.
When McNamee came out with his “evidence” my trust in McNamee’s version of reality has been completely shaken. His story, as I understand it, is that he was injecting Clemens with illegal substances over a period of time. This involved advising Clemens that this would be a good thing to do. He and Clemens were BFF and did workouts, etc. together. At the same time he gave a couple of injections to Andy Pettite to help him over an injury. When the federal investigation and Mitchell report came along, he got busted and to avoid jail time he did what to him was absolutely unthinkable-he ratted out his friend Clemens.
How in this scenario does it make sense that he would be saving bloody syringes from the BFF days? He was doing this so that when he told the authorities that Clemens did illegal substances and Clemens didn’t admit it, he could prove he was right and Clemens was wrong? Doesn’t make sense to me. Sounds more like he was trying to set up Clemens from the beginning. Also, as pointed out on the FAN, his “evidence” doesn’t really amount to much, because it would be very easy to fake.
I just came across another activity of Mitchell’s law firm, DLA Piper. they are involved in defending the Dubai against a class action suit for “alleged enslavement of boys as jockeys in camel races”.
DLA Piper’s activities include not only legal defense against the suit, but lobbying Congress and, apparently, put propaganda on the internet. See:
http://www.uaeprison.com/camel.....ations.htm
Of course Dubai has every right to legal representation. But the combo of lobbying Congress and spreading propaganda – well, if Mitchell were as impeccable as many have pretended, he would not be involved in a firm that performed such activities. this is the venue of legal mercenaries, not “impeccable” people.
The activities described in this article make me wonder whether DLA Piper is paying someone to influence opinion by posting on blogs such as this. whoa, I’m looking at you.
Here’s my take:
1. Dragging Clemens’ wife into this is total tabloid journalism. Even if true, it’s not relevant to the case at hand, which is, did Roger or did Roger not take PEDs. Really sleazy and embarrassing that she’s now dragged through the mud.
2. As a Yankee fan, I hope Clemens is innocent. But I just can’t shake the feeling that he isn’t. We may have nothing but circumstantial evidence that he used, but it seems pretty substantial.
3. McNamee has a lot to lose by lying about Roger. Hasn’t he been given a deal by the feds for giving them information? If he lies, he loses his deal and faces more severe penalties. It is not logical that he would lie. He gains nothing.
4. If Roger is lying, which I think he is (and I would be VERY happy to be wrong) he may have taken this thing to a whole different level. The feds will HAVE TO investigate, because any deal they gave McNamee is predicated on him being truthful. They must get to the bottom of that because if McNamee lied, he’ll get slam dunked. If their investigation shows Roger is lying, he may have set himself up for some charges of his own.
5. O, How the might have fallen! And it makes me feel bad for the man. But didn’t you always suspect the guy? Even a teensy bit? I did but it sure doesn’t make me happy that he has now (IMO) been exposed. Just really sad for baseball.
6. I know it’s easy to paint Mitchell as a Red Sox stooge (and trust me, I do that with every Red Sox fan I know, and living in Maine, there ain’t nothin’ but Sox fans), but really, the man has had a long and distinguished career. Is he such a nut that he risks all for his beloved team? I doubt it.
7. Well, here’s hoping that this season will be a cure for what ails me and baseball. Steroid overdose. Let’s Go Yankees!