Pettitte asks out of hearing
-
- February
- 11
The New York Times is reporting that Andy Pettitte has asked to excused from Wednesday’s Congressional hearing and that committee chairman Henry Waxman will agree.
The suggestion is that Pettitte does not want to say something damaging to Roger Clemens in such a public forum. Pettitte, you will recall, gave a two-hour deposition to the commitee last week.
The hearing promises to be riveting. Yahoo! Sports columnist Dan Wetzel (a UMass guy) makes a great point: Clemens is either completely innocent or completely stupid given all of his denials.
I get the sense that fans want to believe Clemens is innocent. And it’s certainly hard to have much respect for Brian McNamee. But if any man has enough hubris to think he can get out of this because of who he is, it’s Clemens.
It seemed funny last season when Clemens designed a hat with his own logo on it and gave it out to all his teammates. Or when he showed up one day wearing a “Roger Clemens Foundation” golf shirt then changed into a Roger Clemens “Tough All Day” t-shirt.
It’s funny, but it’s also telling. Most people, even successful ones, realize they are who they are. But Clemens has adopted this Rocketman persona and wears it like a shield.
Maybe the Rocketman is powerful enough to win 354 games, charm a bunch of Congressmen and skate off into the Hall of Fame. In time, we will find out. But not having Pettitte by his side to confirm his denials won’t be helpful.
UPDATE, 9:51 p.m.: It’s official now, Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch and Kirk Radomski were dropped off the witness list for the hearing. That leaves only Clemens and McNamee, presumably in a steel cage.
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on Monday, February 11th, 2008 at 9:00 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
andy deserves his out.
The Rocket will burn up upon re-entry.
None of this would be happening if not for Clemens taking a week before denying the allegations in every place that he could reach for a microphone or camera. Good to see that Clemens and McNamee can continue to be idiots about all of this without pulling anyone else into it.
At least, hopefully, Pettitte will be able to show up at ST on Thursday and just pitch
so either Pettitte doesn’t want to implicate Clemens in front of his face or he’s already said he doesn’t know anything and there’s nothing more for him to say… Guess we’ll find out.
Andy manned up and is responsible only to himself. It’s not his responsibility to clean up Selig’s mess.
Roger won’t need Andy if he’s innocent.
Andy’s excuse is that he has to pitch. What’s Radomski & Knobby’s excuses?
Certainly seems damning if he is refusing to talk, especially since we know Pettitte did it.
I feel that if Andy had nothing incriminating against Roger he would have definitely testified. By asking out makes me feel he is afraid of what he will have to say publicly which would hurt Roger..even if it is only that they discussed steroids or HGH in the past. The fact of the matter is I feel all players have discussed it at one time or another but at this point just saying it was discussed between them makes Andy feel uneasy about casting any unfavorable light on Roger because of how this has all played out to this point.
I tell you …this has been one crazy scene with more to come…unfortunately.
Go Yankees 2008 !!!
I have finally seen the light. I saw it off in the distance and wanted to pretend it wasn’t there. I didn’t want to believe that Roger did roids. But now I have come to the realization that he probably did.
He never could have imagined that it would have blown up as big as it did. Now he has dug such a deep hole that he has to continue to dig. But I have a feeling that on Wednesday it will cave in around him. What has made me come to that realization? Was it the needlesor gauze? No. Because that can be fabricated, since we all know the person that McNamee is. It was Andy. Andy asking out of the congressional hearings. If Roger truly was innocent, Andy would be there to support his friend. He would be there to say that no Roger and I never spoke of it. But he asked out. He doesn’t want to say anything on tv to harm his friend. But really what kind of friend is Roger? Yes, Andy was wrong in using HGH, he has already admitted that. But Roger has indirectly dragged his friend into his mess.
I think there are two possibilities explaining why Andy will be excused.
One, the damage is already done. Andy gave incriminating information in his deposition and the Committee agreed to spare Andy the public spectacle of having to repeat that testimony in public for the cameras. (In that case, if they can use Pettitte’s deposition to cross-examine Rocket, Rocket would have to to confess, call Pettitte a liar, or say Pettitte was mistaken. Not likely anyone is going to believe that. Pretty dramatic stuff). But since when do Congressional Committees give a damn about someone’s feelings when that someone could provide big ratings?
There is another possibility.
Andy may have waffled in his deposition, or said that he doesn’t know whether Roger used HGH or Steroids and that he doesn’t recall whether Roger ever told him that he did. Thus, it would be anti-climactic at best to make Andy say “I don’t know” in front of the cameras. So if Andy won’t be providing the smoking gun, and since he cooperated wit Congress and has confessed to his HGH use like a good scout, maybe they decided to cut him loose since he would make a crappy witness.
Good news
Chris NY:
Wish I had read your post before i posted.
There will be less of a circus at Yankee spring training.
Andys innocent, Roger is garbage
The question is, why was Radomski allowed out?
Why does it take my comments so long to Post…especially when there are comments from others after my post time??? I posted a comment around 9:28 and as of this time …9:38 it still hasn’t posted.
Go Yankees 2008 !!!!
Andy already gave his deposition. He told the Yankees that he walked in there and “told the truth”. A deposition, if I’m not mistaken, is under oath, so it’s highly doubtful that he told any lies (even a “I don’t recall” if he really does recall would probably be considered a lie to Andy).
They don’t need Andy there. He’s not going to share anything new that he didn’t already give in his deposition.
We’ll be able to tell whether or not Pettitte gave Clemens up just by the questions congress asks. And I’m sure someone will get their hands on the transcript of what Andy said at some point.
Jennfier, they said Radomski was just going to plead the fifth anyway.
Pettitte gets more screwed by the Mitchell report by anyone even though he was assumedly honest in his admission of guilt a few times. Despite that, Andy has to go to congress, throw his mentor and good friend under the bus and get threatened with the possibly of perjury if he is proven to have given false testimony.
So those who think Andy screwed Roger by admitting his wrongdoings, consider how badly Clemens is now (unintentionally) screwing Andy.
Say it ain’t so.
Thanks.
From ESPN.com:
Sources told ESPN’s T.J. Quinn that Pettitte was not a good witness when he appeared before congressional lawyers during a deposition on Monday. Pettitte often contradicted himself, so the committee agreed to his request not to appear before the committee.
Lawyers familiar with the hearings would not say if Pettitte implicated Clemens as a steroids user in his testimony. However, they said that Pettitte’s testimony didn’t fully jibe with Clemens’ versions of events.
http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3241579
I don’t trust mcnamee at all, but if Andy says Roger did share his usage with him I’ll believe Andy,as I’ve said many times, Andy didn’t lie for himself I can’t see him covering for his friend.All mcnamee needs is a credible witness,Andy is credible.
Andy has already been deposed. If he gave any information against Clemens it can be used whether Andy is present or not. But I don’t think this is good news for Clemens.
Another “expert” is heard from…..
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1900&Itemid=42
Rocker Claims Selig Knew of Steroid Use in 2000
Andy Pettitte has been my favorite player for a long time, and I am having a lot of trouble with this whole story. Ugh. I do think his reluctance to testify will prove to be a bad sign for Mr. Tough All Day.
Good for Andy. I’m sure he doesn’t want to watch himself say things that don’t “jibe” with what Clemens said over and over and over again on ESPN for the next five years.
Yankees,
How can you say Pettitte’s innocent when he’s already admitted guilt? Sure, there are degrees of guilt and degrees of cheating, and while I think hes on the low end of both, he DID fess up.
I’m not so convinced that Andy being excused is bad news for Team Clemens.
For whatever it’s worth, my impression from the tenor of the remarks on ESPN’s website (above), is that Andy did not sink Roger. He “often contradicted himself, so the committee agreed to his request not to appear before the committee.” It seems that Andy wasn’t a smoking gun.
I firmly believe that Andy would not lie to protect Roger if asked the right question. But he may be the kind of witness that won’t volunteer anything unless you ask him a very specific, precise question and give him no way out.
Keep all sharp objects from Roger.
Honestly, the only thing about this soap apera I care about anymore is that Andy is able to have the right frame of mind to do what he does best, pitch.
None of the other garbage matters to me anymore. We all get it. Steroids were rampant and are bad for you. It’s time to move on hopefully with everyone involved having learned a lesson. None of this other stuff is necessary and I’m doing my best to pretend it isn’t even going on.
I am a 16 year old high school student and I remember when Clemens first game to the Yankees in 1999. I was 8 years of age and remember him instantly being my idol.
In the 07 season I got tickets to a Yanks/Angles game and the pitching match up was John Lackey vs. Roger Clemens. Clemens did absoultely amazing in the game and I just remember stadning up and giving my idol a standing ovation along with the other 55 thousand fans.
Now will all this steroid talk my idol is… no long my idol. I want so bad for McNamee to say he made all of this up and Clemens is innocent.
If Clemens is lying and really is guilty… I wish ther was a way for me to go back in time and get a new idol.
RIP my childhood memories
OTOH, not sinking Clemens, is not the same thing as exculpating him either.
If Pettitte wasn’t asked very specific, precise questions, the lawyers involved should stop taking the taxpayers’ money.
But in that same statement, there is this.
However, they said that Pettitte’s testimony didn’t fully jibe with Clemens’ versions of events.
And the word is jive.
Anthony, I feel your pain. It’s a good reminder that we shouldn’t put these guys on a pedestal. They are people, people who make mistakes just like we did. Check out Bill Simmons’ archives on ESPN. He wrote a column you might be able to relate to in which he essentially says, “The worst part about the steroids era is that it has invalidated some of my best memories.”
oops I spelled it wrong in mine too. PETE WE need AN EDIT BUTTON!!
So without knowing anything about what Pettitte did or didn’t say, some people are pronoucing Clemens guilty? What?
The only way we will know what transpired is for the thing to play out. Pettitte might have given some information, but it might not be of a sort that gives McNamee the “credibility” he needs. What if the only thing Pettitte does is say we talked about steroids, every one did? Does that make McNamee a shining example of honesty then?
One thing we do know. The Government let Radomski off, the drug dealer gets off, and the potential users are the ones who will face the bigger consequences.
What kind of message does that send to the “children”? To me, I think it means that you shouldn’t grow up to be a professional athlete when there is more profit and less work in being a drug dealer.
Reading the gleeful tones from people posting about “HGH Pettitte” and Clemens is guilty really makes me question how the American ideal of innocent till proven guilty has fallen this far and low. Is life that poor that you take enjoyment from seeing something tragic unfolding, that it makes your day brighter? Regardless of how you like or dislike the persona of Clemens, how can this be a matter to be savored?
McNamee is not a person who you can hold up to your children as any kind of example for what you want them to be. Accused of drugging and raping someone, of dealing drugs, of lying continously through life. If it does come out that Clemens is guilty of using PEDs, then McNamee becomes the “hero” of this sad saga. Think about that. A dishonest parasite, a person who has no loyalty to anything but himself, is the “hero”. And even if McNamee is shown to be a liar, Clemens reputation will never be the same again.
Where is the plus side to any of this? Where is the show of responsibility for true justice from Mitchell? Where is the value to Baseball from this?
I don’t see any pluses. I don’t see any good that comes from this. Regardless how it turns out. And Selig gets an extention.
“The question is, why was Radomski allowed out?”
If Radomski’s lawyers were smart they covered all of his crimes in his plea deal with the Feds. He therefore probably doesn’t have to “take the Fifth” But if he was going to “take the Fifth,” that is one reason to not bother calling a witness in a Congressional hearing.
Another possibility is that Radomski may have to testify in future, pending criminal cases. The Feds therefore do not want to expose Radomski to unnecessary requests for testimony out of fear he will eventually contradict himself and thus damage his credibility as a witness when it really counts.
One more explanation is that Congress’ focus is on Clemens and I’m not sure Radmoski is really a Clemens witness. He could I suppose corroborate conversations he, Radomski, had with McNamee, but those conversations don’t really implicate Clemens because I don’t think Clemens was a party to conversations with Radomski.
McNamee will just have to carry the day on his own.
John Rocker may be a tried and true bigot but he at least exposed Selig for what he is …. a phony.
Old Goat, I thought Clemens was guilty a long time before Andy asked out of his appearance on Capitol Hill. I’ve always thought it, but I was in denial for years. There’s no escaping the stats and trendlines, not too mention everything else. Just my opinion. Loved Phil Hughes’ answer about steroids on his blog the other day. Basically, “I was shocked. I’ve never seen that stuff in person.” Good. Keep it that way, Phil.
Selig and Co. will discount anything Rocker says because he’s a slimeball lowlife(which he is), yet they’ll let one of the gretest pitchers in the history of the game have his reputation destroyed based solely on the word of an even bigger slimeball.
BTW, the use of the word jibe is correct. It means to be in accord. It is also a sailing term. Jive is a style of music, and a slang term for “bogus, false or untrue”.
I completely agree with you Peter…your take on Clemens fans that is.
Either this guy is in fact completely innocent or he is the most pompous, arrogant, unintelligent figure in sports of his generation, if not ever.
Pettitte, on the other hand, deserves his out and I believe this will allow him to focus solely on the season at hand. He has done has part, admitted his error, and spoken before a Congressional committee. He will face scrutiny, boos, and animosity in the coming season and likely any after. Let the man play his game and tip your cap to him for at least admitting what he did.
whoa:
“If Pettitte wasn’t asked very specific, precise questions, the lawyers involved should stop taking the taxpayers’ money.”
Between you and me I never cease to be amazed at how few experienced lawyers know how to ask a good question. It’s really not as easy as it sounds. (It requires lots of preparation).
You are right, however, that not implicating Roger is not exculpating him either. But then again, my guess is that Team Clemens would be pretty happy to find out that Andy’s infamous conscience didn’t take Roger down. Realistically, that’s about their best case scenario for Andy.
This is all very sad.
I will not pass judgement on a person till the facts are clear. Hearsay is not a reason.
Tickets to the show are free but the media never fails to seize any and every opportunity to grab market share and it’s no holds barred. Dem’s da rules.
Another case of hyping the politics of personal distruction.
Whether it’s Duke Lacrosse, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong…if your name is in the high profile game…you alone are to blame…for your own demise…matters not whether you are guilty or innocent. Whatever smells is whatever sells.
Sorry Roger, you were successful dude and appeared to enjoy it a little too much…nothing personal but your name grabs attention…I sell attention…1+1 = ratings for me.
You make a lot of scratch and even though I don’t have all the facts…I gotta take ya down…cuz I’m looking to grab a bigger audience for my blog…radio show…magazine…TV show…whatever…
Seriously, Roger…I mean you are the freakin’ Rocket…Super Bowl is over…it’s not yet pitchers and catchers and the Santana story is not a story anymore…I mean put yourself in my position…What’s a scribe to do?
I gotta throw out somethin’ fresh everyday…or I lose the buzz.
It’s way to early to jump on A-Rod for being A-Rod…It’s not open season on Alex till opening day…if we are lucky he’ll strike out two times and throw one away…we’ll be a little patient…if Jeter starts off slow…but if it’s Memorial day and he’s batting below .310 I’ll lock him in my sights…and start pushin’ for him to move to 1st base…or somethin’…like he dates too many beautiful and famous women.
I can always beat on JD, Jorge or Giambi…that’s too easy though and Mo…he’s a nice guy…doesn’t do enough national commercials either and not snd not real quotable…Too bad for me…
Hey like I said…It’s never nothin’ personal but…to keep the pop tarts in me toaster…I gotta grab eyeballs…feel for ya later!
I believe the Old Goat is correct on the jibe reference. No irony there, though.
I don’t know whether Clemens is guilty or not, and I really don’t care very much as long as Andy stays out of it.
The only thing that stopped Andy from giving the media their chance to rip him apart and question him before spring training was that his son got hurt and his father got sick. He was going to give a press conference so that this wouldn’t drag down to Tampa.
The media can have their few days (or more likely one day, if the Yankees have anything to say about it) and then he can escape into baseball.
old goat, I’ll have to call my uncle on that tomorrow.
To me it seems really insane the way this probe is being conducted. The whole point should be to keep PEDs away from children and young athletes who they can harm. Imagine if we fought the war on drugs like this? Letting the dealers off the hook and instead going after the users?
I have no problem trying to clean up baseball. But the way Congress is handling this is completely backwards. Congress should press forward with stiff punishment for Brian McNamee and the dealers, and then the athletes would have no way to get the drugs.
I never thought I’d say these words, but I agree with everything Rocker said. About Selig, at least.
The Rocker Interview (full)
We know that hundreds, and maybe more than a thousand players, over the last decade or so, have done PEDs.
Why are we so concerned whether or not Roger or Andy did them?
Are we all so good and moral that we want to know so we can sit in judgement?
McNamee raped a lady but was never charged. But there are eye-witnesses, hospital and police reports that tell the story.
Yet here we are, watching while Roger and Andy are singled out, simply because the bogus Mitchell Report named them, and close to 100 others.
Adn Again, nary a word is said about Selig, whose contract was renewed, Don Fehr, the owners and everyone other baseball executive who knew what was going on for over a decade.
Our comments and speculation here give weight to what is one ugly dog and pony show, that has done absolutely nothing to address the problem, or those that were the root of it.
I guess this makes for good reading during the slow, cold, baseball-less winter, but I can’t deny that I find this whole thing sickening.
There is nothing new here. We all KNEW FOR CERTAIN that many, many, many basbeall players have used PEDs. Why all of a sudden all the moral outrage?
Go to baseball-reference.com and look at John Rocker’s stats, especially his ERA and K/inning ratio. He was amazing for three years, then disappeared. I wonder if his supplier went out business. A really interesting flash-in-the-pan career.
As I have vowed not to discuss anymore the thing that is happening a few hours south etc. I did find this NEW baseball cap that is being put out by New Era and SPike Lee to honor the Yankees this year. Looks pretty cool to me
http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1901&Itemid=42
OldYanks, why are people outraged now? I think for the past few years, everyone has been able to play a game of pretend. Now, the pretending is over and we know a lot more about the extent of steroid use. I hate it, myself.
“Travis
February 11th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I believe the Old Goat is correct on the jibe reference. No irony there, though.”
So I might be jibe with jibe?! LOL
Its also spelled gybe. In sailing its about how you take the wind on the other side of the sail. I believe the term is pronouced differently for sailing though.
Roidger should donate the 18mil the Yanks paid him last season to a charity or me.
the ESPN story doesn’t seem to add up: if Pettite was contradicting himself in a way that tangibly attacks Clemens’ credibility, then it seems Pettite is a very good witness - for McNamee.
if they’re excusing Pettite, it seems he must have nothing incriminating to say.
And if Pettite has nothing to nail Roger with, Roger wins to any fair-minded observer. McNamee alone doesn’t have the credibility, especially if Clemens has proof he wasn’t at the Canseco party that begins the McNamee narrative in the Mitchell report.
Travis, there have been steroids used in all sports for a long time. Football still has problems with it, yet it doesn’t get any of the attention that this does.
Want to think about how this might play out to a kid though? Think about it.
If Clemens is guilty of using PEDs, one of the most sucessful pitchers in baseball, coupled with Barry Bonds, the King of Home Runs, then it will plant in the minds of some young athletes who are coming up now to think their sucess was due to steroids and HGH.
I don’t condone the use of these drugs, but many of those who have used them have not found that they are the mircle drug that you would be lead to believe.
Banning it, making it illegal, for some it has only made it more enticing for them. If a kid sees Clemens career or Bonds career, wouldn’t it be tempting to consider taking some shots to have it?
This whole thing was sparked by Mitchell. Mitchell put together a report that named players which diminished the focus of what that report was supposed to do. It was supposed to expose the nature of the PED drugs and the widespread use. Yet it only named players from a few select clubs. To some this means that their club is clean. It also detracted from the recommendations (which I think just about anyone could have come up with in a few weeks time) on how to clean up the sport.
The zenith of all this whole episode though comes with Radomski getting nothing for punishment after going through a Federal investigation which got turned over to a private report. Where is the outrage that our tax dollars went into the investigation that gave the lions share of information to Mitchell, and Mitchell gets paid millions for the report?
Our tax dollars funded the main body of the report. Mitchell gets millions from MLB for work that was laid out by the Federal Government, and no positives have come out as the result.
george,
They don’t need Pettitte there. They can quote from his deposition when they ask the witnesses questions relating to where their testimony converges or diverges from Pettitte’s or Knoblach’s.
“Innocent until proven guilty” is an American foundation, but I think we use it selectively. I mean, do people walk around claiming OJ is innocent because he was never proven guilty? Same with Bonds. Fans of both of them will claim “innocent until proven guilty,” but few others will.
Public opinion means something when we’re talking about public figures. It may not be fair, but that’s part of the deal.
Hi ho Pete, I got 2 Tough All Day T shirts (brand new). $6 each, anyone interested?
Let’s wait and see what happens. Clemens may be guilty, but he just might be innocent. Why make your decision now when there is much yet to be revealed or decided?
All I care at this point is that Andy doesn’t get too distracted as the season approaches. I hope he’ll be so determined to clear his name after this scandal that he’ll have an exceptional year.
I know practice is open to public, but what about pitchers and catchers? I was thinking about going Friday morning.
Speaking of steroids, John Rocker said that doctors from the Texas Rangers and the Player’s Association gave him, A-Rod, Rafael Palmeiro and Ivan Rodriguez advice on taking steroids.
I wonder if Rocker tried to contact George Mitchell during the pendency of his investigation, and if not, why not.
Let’s face it we will never know the truth. This is just karmic payback to Selig, Mitchell, the union, the players, and the media for letting baseball sully itself for so many years.
I put a lot of weight on Andy’s testimony, either way.
If he implicates Roger, I see him as a very credible witness, and will likely believe Andy.
On the other hand, if Roger did do steroids (and we know Andy did HGH), I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Andy wouldn’t know about it. I also find it unlikely that he’d try to hide his knowledge from Congress. So if he does NOT implicate Roger, I’d strongly lean towards guessing innocence.
BTW, anyone hear Mike and the Dog today? Dog keeps saying “Pettitte admitted doing steroids” and Mike never corrects him.
Absolutely outstanding post Old Goat. Basically sums up my feelings on the issue as well.
I find it interesting that Clemen’s people come up with a report that is supposed to explain how Clemens could pitch and get better at his age by citing other pitchers who pitched effectively beyond 40. Um…only one problem, the report seems to be full of errors and even cites one pitcher that pitched effectively after 40 but in real truth retired when he was 39!!
Travi- “for the past few years, everyone has been able to play a game of pretend. Now, the pretending is over…”
Are you kidding? People haven’t been playing pretend, they really don’t care. I mean, we don’t want Barry Bonds types shooting steroids, then pouring a steroids shake over a bowl of steroids.
Tell me. Who’s a bigger cheater. A fat, out out shape pitchers who cuts a ball with a nail file and has an unhittable pitch, or a guys that does steroids and THEN spends 4 hours a day in the gym killing himself.
I mean, I NOT for steroids. I wish they weren;t around. But getting indignant about Andy Pettitte? Or even Roger?
But really. 2 shots of HGH in a 15 career? Are we serious? We all know the Mitchell report is just the tip of the iceberg.
People just feel better about themselves when they get to shame others.
Oh oh:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-sppettitte0212,0,4950087.story
Hey guys i just started a blog with only two entries so far, can you let me know what you think?
http://2130pinstripes.blogspot.com/
Old Goat - “If Clemens is guilty of using PEDs, one of the most sucessful pitchers in baseball, coupled with Barry Bonds, the King of Home Runs, then it will plant in the minds of some young athletes who are coming up now to think their sucess was due to steroids and HGH.”
Do you have kids? I have a 20 year old. She’s not stupid. She knows about drugs. Do what Brittany and Lindsay do really effect her? Is it possible college and high school athletes might already know about PEDs? Do you think they might use the Internet to research them? Do you think it’s Roger that will get them to do PEDs, or is it their high school coaches and agents who say “Hey kid.. want to make it to the bigs?”
Who was the player last year who killed himself drunk driving. How about Tony LaRousa? Our friend Jim Leyritz? Alcohol kills more then 1,000 times as many kids as PEDS. How about cigarettes? Athletes smoke. Where’s the outrage?
Where are the congressional hearings on the REAl dangers to children?
Kids are not dumb.
They are surrounded by crime, sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Do you believe Steroids are really a major problem?
I’m sorry. I don’t buy the ‘what about the children’ argument. They listen to us until they are about 12, and then forgetaboutit.
I just don’t buy the ‘what about the children’. It doesn’t stop us from sending them to Viet Nam or Iraq. It doesn’t stop US from making alcohol, guns and cigarettes.
As a matter of fact, it is just these typical propaganda dog and pony shows that allow us to avoid the real issues, a few of which are listed above, and pat ourselves on the back and say “see… we’re doing it for the kids”.
Been on the road for the past few hours, but every 20 minutes I got to hear ESPN radio tell me sources say that Andy contradicted himself during the deposition (all over the map).
Catherine,
Looks good. Skipped the Giants part, but the other part looks good. (two teeny weeny typos caught my eye in the last two paragraphs of the Yankee entry).
Also, you can link your name to your blog. Just put the URL in the website box above the comment box before you post here.
Good luck and hope you can keep it up. You guys have more courage putting yourself out there I ever could.
I have given a deposition & it can be really intense. Your lawyer is present along with the prosecutions lawyer who is questioning you while a stenographer is typing each word you say. If your lawyer doesn’t want you to answer a specific question, the other lawyer asks the same question worded a bit differently & so on. Even if you are telling the truth, it’s really really nerve racking. Just putting it out there that those situations are really intense & sometimes you may contradict yourself even if you are being truthful. The tactics used are really intimidating.
Amen, OldYanksFan. It’s a joke if anyone actually believes that “this is all about the children!” Congress doesn’t care about your children, they care about publicity and hiding the fact that Mitchell’s ‘report’ was pathetic.
If you want to experience a nerve racking legal environment, check out a grand jury proceeding. Counsel is not permitted to assist their clients, and a prosecutor can ask leading questions based on hearsay.
Thanks Mel!
OldYanksFan, I have 4 children, I have also spend a majority of my life working with youth. I know that there are kids who won’t do drugs, but guess what, there are plenty of them that do.
I have had talks with kids involved heavily in various sports. On their teams they have kids that do drugs, that do steroids, that smoke pot.
If you think that drugs are no longer an issue with today’s youth, I’m sorry but you are mistaken. Heck, all you need to do is think back to the news report about the high school in New Jersey that had to go to drug testing for their athletes.
If you don’t think that some kids who are playing sports don’t dream about becoming like one of the elite players, then why do the up and coming players have those who they admired and wanted to be like when they were kids.
Outlawing drugs, drink or anything else won’t make it a clean world. It just changes who gets the money from these things. Drugs are still a problem in this country and it doesn’t matter what class you are in.
Besides, you took one part of a whole. How about if I took just one of your sentences and made a long pronouncement about it? How about thinking for one minute about what the congress has stated as the reason for looking into this mess. Their stated goal about cleaning up steroids in baseball was for the children.
Personally, I think its asinine to assign every facet of life around the children. We as a society have shifted our thinking on making things set up so much for the children that we have forgotten to be parents to them. Far too many of the children that I have worked with think that their parents are there to be pals with. They lack discipline and limits in their life. In general, we are failing the children because we don’t stand up for what is right, what is decent. We look to place blame rather than set the example. We look for excuses rather than accept responsibility.
Kids may not be dumb, but they do dumb things. What makes it worse is that the adults in charge of their care have no idea on how to lead them into making the right choices, teaching them how to think.
And if you don’t think that things in the news will have negative affects on the children, just think about what one particular President did and how it has sparked young kids to thinking that oral sex isn’t sex. That has become the fad. Kids are doing it right in their classrooms.
Some of these kids are just looking for their excuse.
Oh My! LA Confidential. We’ve had people confess to:
-Cheating on an online driving course to clear up a speeding ticket
-Giving depositions
-Being part of a grand jury proceeding
-Being a man and practicing yoga
The truth shall set you free. lol.
Good stuff!
Thanks for the link. I think it was pretty obvious that Clemens was guilty for some time now but Pettitte backing McNamee just proves it. I wonder if Clemens will see jail time.
Scr*w the court of public opinion. Scr*w the hall of fame, too. What this country is SUPPOSED to be is one where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Anyone who thinks all these bozos and baloney “evidence” are anything close to proof, need to ship themselves off to Mexico, where you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Last I checked, this is NOT Mexico, so I, for one, will consider Clemens to be telling the truth until someone that doesn’t lie for a living OR put together reports that rival 5th graders comes forward with some cold hard facts. ( remember those ? )
Old Goat, missed your last few posts last night, but wanted to thank you for the reasoned discussion.
You asked: “I mean, I NOT for steroids. I wish they weren;t around. But getting indignant about Andy Pettitte? Or even Roger?
But really. 2 shots of HGH in a 15 career? Are we serious? We all know the Mitchell report is just the tip of the iceberg.”
I’m not overly upset about a guy who took two shots when he was trying to get over an injury. I AM upset about a guy who potentially took shots over the course of nearly 10 years to short-circuit what was a career in complete collapse.
The countdown has started. Just 2 more days for the Mitchell Report to realize full fruition for the dog and pony show lead by a clueless Congressional Committee.
The last opportunity for baseball fans to get any kind of sense out of a report full of holes or else see the entire laughing matter treated like viewing the 8th race results at a no-name racetrack from a no-name newspaper.
According to Davis, Clemens does not attack Pettitte in his deposition, saying his memory is different and that memories can fade over time. A spokesman for Clemens’ lead lawyer, Rusty Hardin, did not return a message
It will be very interesting on Wednesday.
“Radomski never accepted the committee’s invitation to testify, a source familiar with his situation said. Radomski had wanted immunity before he testified, the source said, but he never heard back about his request and never got a subpoena.”
Yet they were sending a Federal Agent after Chucky?
i posted this in the old thread, so i’ll repost it here:
i think this was already posted earlier, but from what i heard reported by TJ Quinn on ESPN Radio last night, Andy’s testimony didnt necessarily implicate Clemens and confirm McNamee’s testimony so much as it was just all over the place… the Congressmen involved did not think Pettitte’s testimony would have helped either way, and might have made the hearings out to be a circus (yeah, cause that would be the only reason…).
the other thought i have on the news that came out yesterday is regards to John Rocker and the new statements from Jose Canseco. You have people blasting them for coming out yesterday, painting Rocker and Canseco as scorned lovers who were cast aside by baseball unceremoniously, and feel the need to ‘get back’ at Bud Selig. This morning on the radio, Kim Jones agreed with a caller who said that we shouldnt give John Rocker any credibility, because he’s a racist and, well, lets just say a jerk.
and while that may be true, when all of the news broke following Canseco’s book, and after Palmeiro tested positive, the original Congressional hearings were done, who was the only man who seemed to have any sort of credibility on the issue? Canseco.
and if John Rocker said he tested positive in 2000, and he was named in the Mitchell Report, why isnt he given a platform to talk about it? Why wasnt he asked to testify in front of Congress? Yes, he is a putz, but he is seemingly willing to offer a window into the culture of drugs and steroids during this era and I think we should at least listen. And, IMO, he’s one player who isnt afraid to talk about Bud Selig’s role in all of this, which is one aspect of the whole investigation that is being COMPLETELY overlooked.
if i was a current player, whether i did or didnt take PEDs, I would be LIVID at Selig and the owners. They hold just as much, if not more, responsibility in this mess, and are washing their hands of it, while the players are being completely hung out to dry.
if nothing else more than he is selfishly just trying to gain publicity for himself, Rocker might lend a little more legitimacy to the entirety of the report, or even shed more light on the subject than Mitchell’s “comprehensive” findings.
Did anyone else see that Roger is going to bring his family with him to the hearing? That is sick. Why would you have your family sit through accusations like that? Does he think it will make McNamee more uncomfortable with telling his side of the story if he has to look at his wife and kids’ faces?
Old Goat and Old Yanks Fan -
One thing to add. When I was a young girl, if I did something wrong, my parents did not automatically take my side and look for someone else to blame. In my opinion, there has been a seachange in that attitude. I’m not saying that parents should not believe their children, but what I am saying is that sometimes people need to take the rose-colored glasses off and realize that their children are capable of making mistakes and it’s not ALWAYS someone else’s fault.
Good points, TurnTwo. Everyone was so quick to roll their eyes at Canseco, and now people are dismissing what Rocker says. After Selig managed to wiggle his way out of getting blamed for this steroids era, I’ll take my chances on believing what Rocker accused him of.
Say it ain’t so
Sympathy? His wife crying behind him?! I agree he shouldn’t involve his family in the hearings.
Slight did at Joe T?
Manager Joe Girardi said last week that the Yankees had already decided on innings limits for Chamberlain, Kennedy and Hughes. Girardi would not divulge those numbers, but jokingly said he would tell reporters when the pitchers were “getting close” to their restrictions.
I cant wait till ST. Then the Daily News will have something BASEBALL related and not what John Rocker has to say.
Say it Ain’t So –
I think it may have more to do with projecting Roger’s image as a stand-up family man, who wouldn’t lie in front of his children. (A more positive spin, I guess.)
Turn Two –
Good points. I’m still not sure what exactly the purpose of the Mitchell report was. It is not doing what Mitchell stated its purpose was moments before revealing the report to the public, which was to “move on” and establish stricter testing. I am thinking that the names were initially not going to be published, but once they got Clemens’ name from McNamee, they wanted that fact out there and they could not publish one without publishing all. I think they wanted as big a name as they could get in a report sanctioned by MLB so that they could parade this star athlete as an example of what could happen to you if you are caught using PEDs. A deterrent, so to speak. A stellar career, a trip to the Hall of Fame, even a post-playing career coaching or speaking on the value of hard work, is derailed.
The travesty is that none of this has been proved and the evidence was sketchy to begin with. But the court of public opinion reigns supreme. I think Clemens’ situation will end up in a perpetual limbo, where he wasn’t proven to have used PEDs, but not exonerated, either. As a result everything about him will be shrouded in doubt. He may eventually go into the HOF, but he will certainly not be a first-ballot inductee.
Jennifer, you stated above that you no longer believe Clemens is innocent. I have to say that I want to believe he is, but the doubts are niggling. We’ll never know, but my feeling is Roger tried them, decided to stop, and then convinced himself that it was almost as if he never did use them. And it’s a small step from the almost to the never. Or he’s convinced himself that they were used to improve his workouts, not his pitching. People can convince themselves of almost anything.
I do know that it would not suprise me, whether he used them or not, that he would have discussed PEDs with both Pettitte and McNamee, just in the course of conversation, because they are an issue in MLB. So, just discussing steroids should not be an indictment.
I always thought that he did it. But I wanted to ignore it. Who wants to admit that someone who played on their team cheated by using roids. But now that it appears that Andy cooroburated what McNamee said, it has become clearer to me. Tomorrow it might be come more clear, or more foggy. This all depends on what they quote Andy as saying. Andy is the one I will believe in this. If he says Roger spoke about doing them, than I’ll believe him, and like wise if he says Roger never used them, I’ll believe him. Some how I doubt that he will say Hhe (roger) never used roids. I think Andy doesn’t want to be there to “throw” his “friend” under the bus.
Doreen, i dont doubt that MLB wanted a name… and sure, it can be argued that by parading around Clemens and how steroids destroyed his career, you might help keep kids from doing steroids.
But, you can also have other kids who look at that and say, “hey, how is Clemens’s career destroyed? He’s got a beautiful wife, a couple of kids, a huge house, and a boatload of money. Hall of Fame? They can keep the accolades; i just want the money… and if Clemens took PEDs and look at everything it got him, why not at least try it, and see how far it can take me? I’ve got nothing to lose.”
Something that hasn’t been discussed yet is how Pettitte will be viewed amongst the frat house that is the player’s union if he does give Clemens up. It’s as if there is an “Ask all you want, but don’t ever tell” policy in clubhouses regarding steroids. So if Andy gave up Clemens last week, will his own team see him as the same person he’s always been? While I’m sure everyone on the team loves and adores Andy, everyone sure did seem to have an attachment to Roger.
I don’t believe anyone in the Yankees clubhouse will view Andy any differently. They all know the person he is, and know the legal ramifications he could have faced had he lied, or been less than truthful.
Everyone is jumping on the management, what about the players union? Even Cone said they were lax in this area.
Players union…Bad!
Management…Bad!
Enough blame to go around, right? 27/08
Old Ranger –
There is blame to spare!
Turn Two -
That’s an interesting point - that shame isn’t enough of a deterrent. Especially if a person’s values are slightly askew, in that the trappings of life are viewed as proof of happiness or success.
Actually, Pete, “[i]f any man has enough hubris to think he can get out of this because of who he is, it’s” not Rocket but Manny Ramirez. We all know his record of abuse, but his name is not even mentioned because George “Corruption” Mitchell is a minority owner of the Red Sox.
ESPN reported that Pettitte “contradicted” himself numerous times in his deposition. Isn’t that a polite way of saying that he lied under oath?
All Pettitte has to say is that he was not 100% sure he had that conversation with Roger. The Feds know that testimony is no good, so they excuse him. He did not knowingly lie, just upon further reflection of the incident, he may have been mistaken.
Here are two things to remember about this:
Why is the Congress even involved?
Google ‘anti-trust exemption’ which gave Congress the oversight of the MLB and NFL with interstate commerce.
How could Roger go to jail?
The moment Roger started talking to the members of Congress (The Feds) he should have been very careful - if they think he has lied, they can put him in jail under the perjury statutes. Think Martha Stewart, Marion Jones.
jennifer:
Just because you now have the impression that Clemens is guilty has as much validity as your impression did yesterday, when you did not think he took PED’s.
This ugly process, (started by Mitchell, who should have named all users or none) will at least bring out all the evidence. If there is no hard evidence, Roger is innocent, regardless of your impression. Similarly, if there is concrete evidence of use by Clemen’s all of his posturing is worthless