Documents reveal a grim story
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- February
- 13
Just spent some time reading the depositions on line. A few things stuck out for me:
1. It’s amazing to me that professional athletes like Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte would entrust their careers and health to somebody like Brian McNamee, who essentially had phony credentials and a checkered past. How do their agents let this slip? Or the teams? One would hope that this situation would lead to players looking into who works for them. The Yankees hired this guy and gave him a uniform based solely on Clemens wanting him. How can that happen?
2. When you read Andy Pettitte’s statement, he comes off like a good old boy who would probably be working at a gas station if he didn’t have that great left arm. Nice guy, means well, just got caught up with the wrong crowd and then did things he didn’t really want to do. It doesn’t excuse what he did. But he certainly doesn’t seem like some cheating creep.
3. It would appear the Yankees give out B-12 shots like Snickers bars on Halloween. Never mind that don’t seem to actually help.
4. Based on what the players involved said, it seems like we (the press and the fans) maybe hear of five percent of the shots and medications these guys take, and those are the legal ones. These guys are walking pharmacies. You have to wonder what’s going to happen to some of these guys when they’re 50. Is it worth it?
5. A whole lot of lawyers made a whole lot of money. When the investigators interviewed Yankees trainer Gene Monahan (who didn’t have any information whatsoever), there were seven lawyers involved.
Unfortunately we haven’t heard the end of this. If the Justice Dept. chases this, it’s going to start over again. Meanwhile, the world is going to descend on Tampa on Monday to hear what Pettitte says.
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Peter Abraham
Enough of this.
The off season is over.
Play some
#$#$ ball.Rebecca – its late … are you blogging on PEDs???
what would happen to all this steroids stuff, if the media stopped “reporting” it. i just don’t care. let them play ball.
games won’t be changed. world series titles will not be revoked. batting titles won’t be altered. cy young awards won’t be redistributed. nothing will change.
i liked baseball when they didn’t used PEDs. i liked baseball when they did use PEDs (but i didn’t know it). i still like baseball now, when they (probably) use PEDs, and i know it.
the only thing that didn’t change is that i still like baseball.
unless something real is going to happen, please stop wasting our time with it.
Regarding your first point, Peter, why indeed would players associate with McNamee if he didn’t have access to something that they wanted that few other people had?
Ranting Guy: Nope.
Ancient Roman fertility festivals and the start of Spring Training, however…
I think most people don’t realize just how slippery a slope PEDs are in baseball. Players are trained to do anything to get the edge. It starts with creatine, and andro, or perhaps amphetamines in spiked coffee. Some of these are banned substances, but whose use in baseball was a common practice. It’s not hard to see why a player would then be attracted to HGH, especially since it wasn’t technically banned until 2005. And steroids, even if they were banned, were obviously commonplace.
I’m with Rebecca. Let’s put the past behind us and look to the future. Congress is supposed to legislate, and the fact that today came off as a trial is a sad day for American Government.
I won’t excuse PED usage.
I’m shocked (and annoyed) Pettitte is not being bashed more for not being upfront about the 2004 HGH usage. He tried to garner the favor of the public by “admitting” to taking HGH twice in 2002, it was calculating to do so and leave out 2004 (which he did only because McNamee didn’t know about it).
Pettitte came out of this looking pretty bad, in my eyes. He tried to manipulate the public.
Whoa,
But what is a PED? For years amphetemines weren’t considered PEDS and in the last few years they were banned. How about andro? McGwire publically admitted taking them in 1998, and now they are banned. Where is the line between PED and supplement? It’s often not so clear, particularly for players who want to have every edge they can get, even if they want to do it legally.
IMO, this issue is a lot more grey than black or white.
pettitte forgot to mention that he took hgh last year also.
Andy is just as bad as the rest.
Pettitte directly contradicts McNamee on pp. 83 & 88 of andy’s deposition. and the much-ballyhooed conversation – Andy says it may have been a misunderstanding on pp. 27 & 91.
I think he did more good than harm to Clemens in the long run.
Knoblauch’s throwing problem is fleshed out by our tax dollars on pp. 12-15; Very interesting in that Knoblauch’s very revealing about what it felt like to him; you really have to feel for him; it must have hurt. I remember him going down to ST early that last year….
One thing I thought was interesting from Knobloch’s depo is that he was cautioned by the union and the league about things to avoid like gambling and street drugs – so he did so. And he indicated that gambling was no longer even an issue in baseball. But HGH wasn’t even banned at the time, and it sounds like there wasn’t much emphasis placed on avoiding steroids.
One of the only interesting things from today’s hearing was the point from NcNamee’s depo about Cone. According to the congresscritter who brought it up, McNamee claimed that Cone told him the MLB wanted to avoid testing, but they wanted the union to give them an excuse to do so. Of course, I consider McNamee the least credible source on the planet, but still I’d like to see Cone asked about this.
YankeeJosh,
The accepted meaning of term, at least in recent parlance as far as I know, is that PEDs refer to steroids and HGH.
I think the line can be drawn at the point at which the substance cannot be legally obtained without a prescription.
Clare,
Cone denies it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/sports/baseball/14cone.html?ref=sports
“In no way, shape or form did I say anything like that to anyone, much less Brian McNamee,” Cone said. “I don’t recall a conversation like that.”
McNamee is reaching Alberto Gonzalez levels of credibility.
Rebecca – Are you referring to the movie `Dragnet` with the Roman thing?
Or was that Pagan?
And if you ever mentioned ever getting through finals by ingesting enough coffee or Red Bull otherwise require a prescription, you better hope McNamee doesn`t know about it.
Thanks whoa.
As I said, McNamee has absolutely zero credibility.
But still, I’d like to see a more thorough examination of the owners’ role in all this. I’m not holding my breath though.
Clare,
IMO, McNamee as a man, has zero credibility, but some of the things he has said have been lent credibility because it has been corroborated.
Good stuff Pete.
I too read through the depositions and then excerpted and commented on some of the more significant passages for Andy Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch.
I totally agree with point #2. Pettitte comes across as a guy who made a mistake [as does Knoblauch] but Clemens comes across as an out-and-out cheater.
I too was amazed by the number of shots these athletes are given out. Toradol or however it’s spelled seems to be a common pain shot for pitchers – as Clemens too referenced it in his 60 minutes interview – there will definitely be some repercussions in aging baseball pros as there is now in aging footballers.
Before anyone attacks Pettite for the 2004 HGH usage and him not admitting it earlier, read his depostion about why he didn’t, you might change your mind about him.
I don’t know what to think or believe anymore. I just know I felt dirty and sad all day from followng all this stuff. Baseball was much more fun when I just turned on the games at 7:05 each night and didn’t pay attention to all this other stuff.
I also found it interesting that in his deposition Pettitte matter-of-factly explains how he helped promote a multi-vitamin product essentially for free while Roger Clemens asked for a boatload of dough to be included in the promotional pamphlet. That’s just a microcosm of who each man is where it counts.
Amen Bob on both points.
bronx,
let’s not be altruistic here. if clemens wants $ to promote something, big deal. i think if you were in his shoes, you might be a bit less on your high horse about this.
1. Just like Hollywood with all the hangers on that are with actors and actresses. Teams, like studios went overboard to keep their “talent” happy.
Its the one thing few talk about in this scandal. The access these wannabes had to players. MLB ought to be ashamed of itself having these people this close to their players.
Fortunately, that has changed. These “trainers” aren’t credentialed anymore. If players want to work with them, they have to do so away from their place of work.
2. Andy Pettitte is like most professional athletes you meet. A good person, not a Rhodes Scholar, and has a talent less than 2,000 people in the world possess. That makes his skill a valuable commodity. It doesn’t make him immune to making the wrong decision at times.
All in all he is a good man. He’s not a drug addict, or any of the other crap morons on blogs want to throw out there. Just a good guy caught in a bad situation.
It happens to people. Those who go overboard being judgmental about it better pray and hope they never get into a rock or a hard place situation in their own lives. If you ever do, your views on this issue will change dramatically.
3. B-12 shots are a “time honored tradition” in sports locker rooms. Ask guys who played in the 60’s and 70’s. They gave even more of them out at that time because trainers didn’t have to document them, as they do today. Baseball, football, basketball and hockey all give these shots out like candy. When you play as demanding a schedule as these guys play, they look for ANYTHING to give them a boost.
Its why you see Derek Jeter with a hugh Starbucks almost every time you see him enter the stadium.
Show me a player in any sport who isn’t trying something (legal or illegal) to keep going and I’ll show you someone not playing professional sports.
Not excusing the behavior. However, if you want them playing these type of schedules, and performing at high levels, be prepared to learn how they actually get through a season.
4. If you want to know what its going to be like for them when they are 50+, take a look at former pro football players at that age. Knee replacements, total disability, pain medication addiction, early alzheimers, those are just some of the things athletes have to look forward to in their “golden years”.
We see it with NFL players and, I suspect (since we have no idea of the long term effects of some of the stuff these guys are using) we will see the same with MLB players in the next 20-30 years.
5. Not only will the lawyers make a lot of money on this, the waste of money on the government side will be in the millions of dollars.
Did we really need 6 FBI agents AND Jeff Novisky to monitor Roger Clemens’ testimony? I’d say that’s a “little” overkill.
Like David Letterman said tonight, Bin Laden may still be on the loose, but they got Clemens.
That should make everyone sleep better tonight.
I remember a book written by Bill Madden and Moss Klein called Damned Yankees documenting the Craziness of Steinbrenner leading up to his suspension from Baseball. In it their was a hysterical story about how George routinely demanded an afternoon B-12 shot. The story pointed out that Billy Martin got them often as a way to combat his hangovers. I believe it was Gene Monhahan who’s job it was to inject Steinbrenner during board meetings. George didn’t want the meetings interrupted so he would drop his pants bend over and take the shot you know where, only he was out of B-12 probably becuase of Martin so Gene predicting what George would do if told he couldn’t have his shot (either being fired or at the least suffer George’s fit of rage) he decided to inject his backside with water. Klein and Madden had a laugh wondering if Lee Iacocca interrupted meetings at Chrysler the same way.
4. Based on what the players involved said, it seems like we (the press and the fans) maybe hear of five percent of the shots and medications these guys take, and those are the legal ones. These guys are walking pharmacies.
Peter, why does this surprise you? You’re acquainted with “North Dallas 40” and “Ball-Four.”
The infamous quote from ND-40, “better football through chemistry.”
Clemens for the HOF.
What’s the point of giving out B-12 shots, if they don’t work?
E-ROC-
Clemens for the HOF
Only if they need a “pharmacist”
I read half of Andy’s and all of Chuck’s deposition. Completely agreed on Andy. Chuck seemed to have a bit of a sad story (mentioned the throwing problems, which seemed to be the reason he started to take HGH), but also was good about not telling on anyone else. Of course, that could be because he knew nothing else.
Y not Clemens for the HOF?
sj is right on.
i do not condone the behavior of these players, but how many of our lives would hold up to these “lofty” blog standards when scrutinized like MLB players’ lives are? none.
i do not feel bad for these players who have highly publicized lives, but i am willing to be fair towards them. i wouldn’t appreciate some idiot from the media or congress rehashing a bad decision i made 5-10 years ago…would you?
Pettitte retired ($16M cleared).
Mussina traded to Atlanta for 30-year old lefthanded starter Buddy Carlyle (Mussina’s $11.5M for 2008 – $420K the Yanks could give to Carlyle who made only $397,500 last year = $11.08M cleared). $27.08M total cleared getting rid of Pettitte (distraction) and Mussina (clubhouse curmudgeon who’ll be a cancer if he’s demoted to the pen cuz he sucks in his walk year).
Chamberlain and Austin Jackson to Tampa Bay for Scott Kazmir
(a FAR superior bounty than what the Mets gave Minnesota for Santana who’s better than Kazmir).
2008 Yankees rotation after these moves:
1. Kazmir > Wang as the ace
2. Wang > Pettitte as the #2
3. Hughes is the #3 w/ or w/o Kazmir
4. Kennedy could be = or > Chamberlain
5. Carlyle could be = or > Mussina
Look into Oakland’s Joe Blanton who’s making only $3.7M this year in his fourth season in M.L.B. to be the #4 or #5.
2009:
1. C.C. Sabathia (the best free agent starter available)
2. Kazmir > Wang
3. Wang > Hughes
4. Hughes > Kennedy
5. Kennedy > Carlyle
Pettitte is long gone, Mussina retires or more likely signs elsewhere after ‘08 (who cares?), and Chamberlain is harmless as a Devil Ray through 2013.
Btw by Santana > Kazmir I mean now not long-term. Kazmir > Santana long-term. Kazmir as the ace Boston killer means Wang doesn’t have to be the ace like he has to be with Pettitte. Simply Kazmir-Wang > Wang-Pettitte. Kazmir as the ace also means Hughes doesn’t have to be a solid #3 cuz you figure a better 1-2 in Kazmir-Wang can make up for Hughes’ bad starts. Kennedy is in the rotation all year and can show what he has. Carlyle is probably a solid #5 at best but him being that at $420K is better than Mussina being that at $11M. The A.L.D.S. rotation would be Kazmir/ Hughes/ Wang/ Kennedy/ Kazmir or Wang/ Kazmir/ Hughes/ Wang/ Kazmir. I like the Yankees chances.
Atlanta’s ‘08 rotation would be Hudson/ Smoltz/ Glavine/ Mussina/ James or Hampton: wildcard-competitive, what they’re not with Hudson/ Smoltz/ Glavine/ James/ Hampton and who if one or two guys suck? Mussina makes the Braves 6 men deep and turns James into the sixth man. Yes, an old rotation, but Carlyle isn’t a kid either (30).
Tampa Bay’s ‘08 rotation is Shields/ Chamberlain/ Jackson/
Sonnastine/ TBD. If you figure Joba will be at least #3 good and Jackson or Sonnastine improves, they are one starter away from 70-75 win decency. They’re already finishing fourth this year after Baltimore just wrote a ticket to 100+ losses by trading their ace Erik Bedard with not one starter being higher than #4 starter good. This doesn’t hurt the Yanks as all it is is musical chairs between T.B. and Baltimore (they switch places as the dregs of the division).
Pettitte has to go asap. He isn’t even ready to report to camp. W T F is that? Try not running your mouth in a deposition about a conversation you had with Clemens when you don’t even know the year it took place in (1999 or 2000), Andy, and you wouldn’t be so distracted, you can’t report to camp on time after you just got another $16M. He misunderstood Clemens cuz he doesn’t even know what year the convo took place. Was this convo audiotaped and/or videotaped? It’s HEARSAY as far as I’m concerned. You present a tape of Clemens telling Pettitte he wanted to use HGH or shut up.
we already have fans looking at possible Free Agent Pitchers available in 09….I’ll say it again…should have gotten Santana…when an ace like that is available you go for it, see Josh Beckett…there will be no one to sign like him at all…..if Pettite retires after 08, Wang is still a good # 2, Hughes is a #3, Chamberlain says in the pen, we still have no ace and we could have had Santana….I feel strongly about this because I have seen Yanks go after other pitchers and have no results, Brown, Wright, Johnson, etc…this was an ace available for us in the prime of his career and we walked away…now Santana will start against us in the first subway series interleague games vs. Mets….thanks Cashman!
A couple of things came out of the hearing yesterday.
One congressman realized that the owners got a free ride. But with David Cone denying that he ever said what McNamee said he did, it’s just another person who proves McNamee is either a big fat liar, or someone who has early Alzheimer’s.
Also, as SJ points out, there were apparently several Special Agents in the audience yesterday. My theory is that they were there to monitor Clemens, but also to monitor McNamee and report back about his performance. IMO, there will definitely be some red faces back at IRS CID, FBI and DOJ over the impression McNamee made on his maiden voyage as witness for the prosecution. While Clemens definitely came off as someone who was being less than 100% truthful, based on my experience with informants as witnesses, McNamee was actually far worse considering the fact that his mission yesterday was different from Roger’s. Thus, yesterday may have been a turning point in the possibility of a DOJ investigation of Roger.
For those who have never had jury duty in a criminal trial, or worked as prosecutor or defense counsel, a criminal trial is a very different thing from a Congressional hearing. At a trial, McNamee has to carry the day since the prosecution has the burden of proof and a felony conviction requires a unanimous verdict from 12 people. Conversely, the defendant needs to win over only one juror to get an acquittal. At a criminal trial, the prosecution has only McNamee and maybe Pettitte, but Andy won’t hold up well under cross-examination. And don’t hold your breath that anyone will ever be able to find Roger’s nanny again. With a little under the table money from Team Clemens, she’s off to parts unknown to live like a queen. Roger on the other hand has numerous trainers, doctors and others who will testify for him.
Given the attacks from Dan Burton and a couple of others, it sure looks like there is going to be a juror or two who wouldn’t buy McNamee’s story and the Special Agents in the room will be reporting that back. Bosses concerned about political fallout from an unsuccessful perjury run at Clemens will have to decide whether they can rehearse McNamee better and make him seem truthful enough to convict Clemens, no small task.
If I were the Government boss making the decision whether to prosecute Roger, I’d punt and let the parties slug it out in Federal Court in Texas. That’s a scenario where everybody can win. The Feds say they are deferring to the forum the parties selected to settle their differences, Roger can stop taking new damage every time he opens his mouth over this, and McNamee can make some money. Even though Clemens is the plaintiff now, McNamee’s lawyers will devise a counter claim against Roger, and thus it can all be settled with Roger giving McNamee an undisclosed sum of money. Roger saves face (I’ve always maintained my innocence and it’s time to move on) and McNamee signs a “do not disclose agreement” and gets a fat check.
Isn’t being a lawyer grand?
Pete –
My husband and I were discussing the very points you made in 1 and 2 this morning. And I’ve been asking that first question for a while. How do you entrust your livelihood so willingly and trustingly to someone you know very little about. No research, no due diligence. Just, he works us out good. It’s a good thing that the access that these hangers-on have is being curtailed.
Thank you for the audio on Joe Girardi. (Also Cashman’s, but I haven’t listened to that one yet.) I liked his demeanor and I liked that he’s looking at spring training like an open audition for a lot of positions. I liked the excitement and freshness in his voice. I felt bad that the first questions he has to answer are about the steroid/PED issue.
There was an article and picture of Joe Torre in this morning’s Star Ledger. He looks like a new man. At the end of the article, he says he knew it was time to make a change. I just wish he’d said that last October, instead of calling his contract offer an insult. He said the beginning of the end, so to speak, was losing to the Red Sox in the NLCS after being up 3 games to none. As Andy Pettite would say, “No doubt.”
A funny thing to come out of yesterday’s hearing was when some congresspeople were asking McNamee why he didn’t just tell Clemens on the phone that he was telling the truth. McNamee said he basically was saying that when he said to Roger, “It is what it is.” It seems a few of our esteemed representatives were not familiar with this over-used phrase and called it a New Yorkism. Huh? And so confused over that particular phrase that they asked for it to be noted in the record that “it is what it is” is a New York phrase for “it’s the truth.”
I use that phrase a lot to describe a situation in my life, but I don’t take it to mean “that’s the truth.” I’ve always taken it to mean, the situation is what it is, and can’t really be changed. So, I did not understand McNamee to be saying to Roger that he did tell the truth; rather that what happened has happened and it can’t be changed now. Especially in the context of him also saying, “what do you want me to do?” Very different from, “Roger, I did tell them the truth.”
murphydog –
Just read your post. Very enlightening, as usual. At the end you state that Roger could write Brian a nice fat check and the two go (well, maybe not so) merrily on their way. My contention is that this has always been what McNamee has wanted. A big payday from Roger Clemens, directly or indirectly.
Pitchers and catchers report today for physicals. Friday is the first day of workouts. Position players remain at the minor league complex for their early workouts.
HEARINGS ARE OF NO SIGNIFICANCE
Andy Pettitte will receive the same cordial response that Jason Giambi did in 2005 at spring training.
speak for yourself swami
Reading through the depositions, both Pettitte and Knoblach said McNamee suggested the HGH to them. Makes his point of he was just doing what the players asked him to do a lie.
repost?
McNamee says all he did was give the players what they wanted so he’s not a drug dealer. Knoblach clearly says in his deposition that McNamee is the one who suggested he use HGH.
Here is what Sports Illustrated reported on Chuck Knoblauch in 1998:
Knoblauch is not just a disciplined hitter, he’s also a disciplined eater. To stay trim during the 1994 baseball strike, he hired a personal trainer who prescribed weight training and a diet that limited his daily fat intake to 21 grams. “I could drink anything I wanted,” he says, “as long as it was water.” When he showed up at spring training the following year, the formerly chunky Knoblauch was 20 pounds lighter and so brawny that his muscles seemed ready to tear through his uniform. “Even Chuck’s facial features looked different,” recalls first base coach Ron Gardenhire. “He used to be this chubby-cheeked kid, and now his face was chiseled rock.”
The reconditioned Knoblauch had his best year yet in ‘95, batting .333 with 34 doubles, eight triples, 11 homers and 63 RBIs in only 136 games. He has been faithful to the diet regimen ever since, subsisting largely on weekly CARE packages FedExed by his trainer-nutritionist from Houston.
Link: http://tinyurl.com/2eyf29
Based on this, there’s very little doubt in my mind that Knoblauch started in on HGH and/or steroids in 1994, long before he met McNamee.
pete – your 1st point about pettite and clemens trusting “someone” like mcnamee is way off, as evidenced by their depositions they ain’t no choir boys…clemens is full of shizot…mcnamee has definitely lied and screwed up, but as a ny’er he knew what to do, can’t trust roger and when roger took it to him via the recorded call, mac threw off the gloves…
great post murphydog!
It’s over. Enough.
If the DOJ takes this on, there needs to be a revolt by the citizenry. It’s bad enough that congress had to put on a week long dog and pony show, but a long term DOJ investigation will likely run into the hundreds of millions of dollars in wasted tax money.
Completely unacceptable.
Pete, your right it’s far from over and it will go on for awhile. I saw another two players came clean yesterday, good for them.
I really liked the Rocket, but even with the checkered background of McNamme I find it very hard to believe Roger didn’t do drugs. I think you just need to triangle the depositons of Andy, his wife, Knoblach, and McNamme, together they play a very compelling story. Roger didn’t do himself any favors, his continued wavering comments about the recollections not only on his own acts and events, but that of the others who commented on his past really weren’t very believable. The visit of the Nanny to his home who he hadn’t seen in years to just check-in and help the committee was just the icing on the cake.
Sad situation for a 7 time Cy Young as he joins the ranks of McGuire, Bonds, Palmero, Sosa who have done great harm to a great sport.
Gee whiz, you guys, if you’re willing to believe Knoblauch actually really started PEDs as early as 1994, why would you believe David Cone’s assertion about what he told Brian McNamee?
David Cone is the one who had a sexual harassment lawsuit filed against him, the claim being “he exposed himself to 3 women while he was in the bullpen during a 1989 game at Shea. The incident was the lowest and most embarrassing moment of his career.” He’s been called one of the “30 sluttiest athletes of all time”.
He’s a sleazebag, too. I wouldn’t believe anything Cone says, for the above reason and most particularly because he WAS a union player leader. He and Tom Glavine and a bunch of others led the way in the last 2 work stoppages in ‘90 and ‘94. Yeah, right about the time PEDs were fueling the greater production, and players wanted a bigger piece of the action.