Mussina myth vs. reality
-
-
- March
- 3
-
I’ve been reading through the comments. Funny to see so many people wanting Mike Mussina executed at dawn because he pitched poorly on March 3.
Just so you know:
Mussina is not going to request a trade. Mussina is not going to the bullpen. Mussina is not going to be released.
Barring some sort of injury, he’s going to start against the Blue Jays on April 3 as the No. 3 starter. Whether you or I or anybody else agrees with it, the Yankees are going to give him every chance to be part of their rotation.
As he said today, somebody has to suck up those innings.
For a veteran player, especially a pitcher, spring training results are meaningless. There are no scouting reports. Certain pitches are left in the bag. Pitch sequences that would be used in April are ingnored in March. It’s about getting stronger and staying healthy.
The Yankees play Houston this season. You really think Mussina wants to give them something to go to school on?
Relax and enjoy the fact that your team has energy, youth and a bright future. Focus on how Dan McCutchen struck out Brad Ausmus or how Mark Melancon didn’t let an error bother him in the ninth inning.
Sweating how pitcher performed on March 3 is a waste of emotion.
This entry was posted
on Monday, March 3rd, 2008 at 6:10 pm by Peter Abraham.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Print This Post
| 
Email This Post
Chad Jennings
Sam Borden
I agree. Mussina will be a usefull No. 3 or 4. While everyone gets on him, not too many teams have a guy like that at the back of the rotation. Also, injuries happen, and there are a lot worse arms that teams would scramble for to bridge the gap.
I agree. Mussina is a good back-of-the-rotation guy. And if injuries crop up, he can be plugged in.
Disagree. Horne/Marquez/McCutchen/Karstens will make it impossible for Girardi to stick with Mussina.
This is not the Torre era any more. The player who deserves to play will play.
The legend of Mussina continues!
Wait. We play Houston this season?
Amen Pete.
Anybody catch Melancon or McCutchen’s velocity?
I have the game TiVoed for tonight.
Rebecca –
Great post!
It is plausible that Mussina ends up in the bullpen at some point this season. He will be given a lot of opportunity to prove himself as a starter, but he could very well pitch himself out of the rotation.
As long as his ERA is at around 5.00 or less, he will probably be given more starts. If his ERA starts approaching 6.00, 7.00 or higher, then the Yankees cannot afford to keep throwing him out there.
From your lips…….
Seriously, folks really have to chill on this.
We NEED Mike Mussina to pitch well. Its really that simple.
Is he my favorite Yankee of all time? No.
But, I know this. If this team wants to go where it wants to go, they need a 10-13 wins and 160-180 innings from Moose. Those are realistic goals.
If he can give them that, they will be able to work around the weaknesses.
Pete, the unfortunate reality is, folks just want to be unhappy. Its in their fan DNA.
They also get fueled by Mike and the Mad Dog and some of the other Sports Talk whiners.
Its the best ST in years for the Yankees. We are seeing what a farm system can do for a team. It creates energy AND competition.
We have a new manager embracing both and the veterans are on board with this!
Remember all the winter talk of the veterans not taking to Girardi? Well, that’s out the window.
This team is trending in the right direction. Right now, and obviously its early, they have a helluva more positives than negatives with the team.
All you can ask for on March 3.
“Sweating how pitcher performed on March 3 is a waste of emotion.”
Truer words were never spoken, Pete. But you have to remember some fans have no lives so they must obsess over every little aspect of this team. Even meaningless Spring Training games when a vet pitcher is trying to get his legs under him. It’s sad really. These are the times when I am embarrassed to be a Yankee fan.
Doreen: LMAO! Here, or PBP?
This is the kind of thing that I brought up a couple of days ago.
So many people on this blog rip Moose to shreds every time he takes the mound and yet these same people were hyperventilating over the weekend because Theo called him a “bad apple” regarding the Japan trip along with Kevin Brown (another guy hated by Yankee fans).
I guess it’s one of those things where it’s only acceptable to lynch your own players but that kind of dissing is off limits when it comes to their most bitter rival.
Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
there are so many positive things going on with the team right now that it astonishes me that some “fans” are almost obsessed with finding faults. part of being a fan is being supportive of our guys…isn’t it?
MikeEff,
I thought so. Seems like SJ44 is right and some fans just need to complain. That’s why we have Rebecca to drown them out with her optimism.
Rebecca -
PBP is ALWAYS great. But I meant your Houston comment above.
“Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.”
I take it you are an only child, Guiseppe. I’ve wanted to beat up my brother many times, but would go nuts if anyone ever touched him. It’s called family.
Hey, Pete! Keep up the good fight against the crazies in The Yankee Panic Society.
I think the reason why people don’t like Mussina problems is he is coming off a bad year 5 Era and isn’t throwing over 175 innings or close.Ian Kennedy can give us a better shot but I do believe at $11 million you have to keep Mussina in the rotation.
Carl Pavano,HGH Pettitte,Clear Giambi,Fransworth,86 mph fastball are gone and thats a great thing.No more dead weight.
The anti-Moose people really do need to quiet down already. Judging a guy based on a couple of innings in Spring Training is ridiculous. And anybody who thinks Karstens or Rasner is better than Moose is nuts.
Bunch of Winter GMs around here.
Doreen: gotcha!
Guiseppe: It IS that family thing. Except, I think, for Pavano. I think we’ve sort of disowned him.
Boston Dave: Hey, you know what the optimism did for us last September. No reason to stop now!
McLovin,
…and you are coming off 172 consecutive incoherent posts. At least Mussina has a chance to add value this season.
Not exactly, Chris. I have two sisters.
The comparison is apples and oranges.
We’re not in a position to call these people “family.” We don’t play side-by-side with these guys all season like the players and coaches do.
We simply watch them on TV or at the ballpark. That’s it.
I totally agree with SJ44 on this one. It’s just one outing, Moose will continue to get better and get into a rhythm. There’s nothing to be worried about. Into every thread a little misery must fall, because there are some who just like to be negative to get a rise out of others. There is too much to be excited about with this team for me to ever be negative.
I’d rather talk about the work of Mark Melancon today.
While everybody wants to declare Moose “done”, I’d rather concentrate on the guy who may be the Joba of 2008.
The more I watch him pitch, the more I am convinced he is in the Yankee bullpen by the AS Break. He’s throwing the ball like he did when he was healthy at Arizona.
He has everything you want in a late inning guy. Stuff, guts, and a Herculean work ethic.
He is also 100% healthy.
He will start the year in Tampa and move to Trenton and Scranton as the weather improves in those areas.
I think he will go through the system as quickly as Joba did and be on this team by Late-July.
If I am correct, his insertion into the bullpen enable Joba to be a starter.
The guy is very, very good. Fans are going to love him.
If you heard Mussina after the game he was not concerned. If you remember last September when he was pulled from the rotation he was down on himself and saying he couldn’t get outs and was puzzled. It is only spring training and Mussina is not concerned. I think we need give him some more time to get ready for the season.
The crosstown team is hurtin’ for certain. They’ll be scouring the scrap yards by the end of March.
http://www.junkyards.com/direc.....ushing.htm
SJ: I’ve heard nothing but good about Melancon.
it was a pleasure watching him today. in a way i was glad there was that error at 1st base that made him have to buckle down and show off his stuff. he battled that last hitter and just wouldn’t give in. great stuff.
it’d be perfect if he was brought up right at the break. then joba could get, what 12-15 starts?
Sj44,
That would all dovetail so nicely!
One of the concerns I have about Joba in the pen is that he will be so effective that they won’t want to take him out, of course depending upon where the team is in the standings. If Melancon is ready, then they won’t have a reason to keep Joba from starting.
I am in favor of Joba being a starter; don’t see why you’d want someone with his stuff to be confined to the bullpen. However, if they Yankees were really hurting in the area of relief and saw no other way out, would there be any harm done to Joba’s development by staying the bullpen this year, but starting next year? Would he then still be on an innings limit next year?
So, if Melancon is what people are hinting he is, and if he is in fact made of the same stuff as Joba (not having the same stuff, being of similar make-up personality-wise), that would be amazing!
Christopher – If Horne/Marquez/McCutchen/Karstens were to eventually make that case, it’d be later on. It’s NOT going to happen in spring training. Moose will have his chance. If he turns out to be adequate as the 4th or 5th pitcher (which means you should excpect him to give up a little over 4 runs per 9 and lose 8-10 games over the course of a full season) he’s not going to be tossed out the window. He’ll go up & down. If he’s 4-7 by the all star break and he’s got a 5+ ERA, little control and an 83mph fastball, then there may be reason to use someone else. But he’s a veteran so he’s not showing everything he’s got all at once right now. Some “AAAA” guy may have to do just to make the team but not someone like Moose. He had half a bad year last year … it’s not like he’s been turned into Igawa and the baseball gods have cast the spell retroactive to 2002.
great to hear SJ on Melancon. No people rather panic about a 37 yr old starter in his 2nd outing of spring training.
SNY today was all over the Moose inneffective outing today, then again they chatted 10 minutes about santana’s bad outing the other day. people have nothing to talk about so they talk about nonsense…..
what is up with JB Cox?
My opinion of Mussina has nothing to do with his start on March 3rd.
All one has to do is look at his stats from last season.
Angels- 10.12 ERA
Orioles- 6.75 ERA
Red Sox- 9.26 ERA
Tigers- 13.50 ERA
Rays- 7.59 ERA
This guy isn’t going to get better. Wake up.
Yankees and Astros play in June. But, I have a hard time believing Peter’s take on it (”You really think Mussina wants to give them something to go to school on?”).
It was what it was… a veteran pitcher getting his work in. It’s a luxury the old guys have. We should certainly hope that he’s ok this year but time will tell.
i’m just sayin….if he consistently can’t get through the 6th inning, he hurts the bullpen too and there are other choices…
At the end of last season there was a great deal of uncertainty surrounding the team. Resigning the veterans, the manager/ coaching staff, trading for Santana, building a bull pen, first base …
Things so far are looking great. Not just good – great.
Just look at the quality and performance of the younger players and the way so many of the veterans have come into camp in shape.
The team is in much better shape this spring than they were last spring.
This team is going to be deep in terms of starters, pitching staff and bench.
They have multiple flexible pieces that they can use to mix and match. This is going to be a very different team, one that is not depending on veterans who are getting injured and prone to injury.
Think about the starting pitching they were relying on last year – Pavano was in the rotation as a key piece! Kei Igawa was in the rotation!
Think about how bad the bench and 1 base was. Will Nieves? Doug Mientkiewciz and Josh Phelps? Miguel Cairo?
Think about how bad the pen was last year – its going to be much, much better this year.
Last year’s bullpen – Proctor, Bruney, Henn, and Myers.
So of the 25 guys on the opening day roster last year 9 were:
Pavano/ Igawa/ Proctor/ Bruney/ Henn/ Myers/ Mientkiewciz/ Phelps/ Cairo
That means over 1/3 of the roster was awful. This was a big reason why when the injuries hit last year they had no answer. It was a brittle roster without depth.
This is a wonderful time to be a yankee fan. The team is going to be very strong coming out of shoot and there are a plethora of young pitchers who will be available as reinforcements.
No team is perfect. Not team is going to have 5 starters with no question. Relax about mussina.
I don’t understand why people is being nasty to each other when in the end we are all yankee fans, and want our team to succeed. Of course we all Moose to pitch well and be dominant, the thing is (IMHO) he looked today the same he looked last season.
Maybe I’m wrong (and I hope I am wrong) but I think he is cooked. His speed is just gone. He needs to be too much precise in order to pitch good. If he is not precise, he is just pounded. He just can’t outmatch nobody.
Let’s hope Moose improves, and is good pitcher again. Fortunately there is time for it.
Bateman,
go return some video tapes.
By the way, here are some 2008 projections for Mussina –
PECOTA: 9-8, 149.7 IP, 40 BB, 101 SO, 1.36 WHIP, 4.54 ERA
ZiPS: 11-10, 171 IP, 41 BB, 112 SO, 1.38 WHIP 4.74 ERA
Marcel: 10-8, 155 IP, 40 BB, 113 SO, 1.38 WHIP, 4.50 ERA
If he pitches consistent with those numbers, he stays in the rotation. But they are only projections.
I think the point is that if a guy like Moose is expected to give up about 4.3 runs per 9 over several months (and eventually averages that for 180 innings) some people will jump to comment on him as being a terrible signing (and call for Cashman’s neutering) when Moose gives up 2 runs in an inning in April.
Pavano/ Igawa/ Proctor/ Bruney/ Henn/ Myers/ Mientkiewciz/ Phelps/ Cairo
Proctor is a good relief pitcher. He pitched over 100 innings in 2006 with an ERA+ of 128. He pitched 86 innings in 2007 with an ERA+ of 124.
I’m certainly not going to urge retirement out of Moose after one spring start, that much is for sure. However, the lack of an out pitch has been a problem for Moose the past couple of years, and it was the problem today. Lets hope he was holding back. That being said, even Spring Training is a competition and I’m sure he didn’t WANT those guys to get 2 strike hits!
If this were a regular season game I would be concerned about Moose. But this is par for the course for ST for Moose. We are not counting on Mussina to be a 1 or 2 starter. It would be great he if were able to fill the #3 start, but if he can be a 4 or 5 starter at his ‘advanced age’ that will be fine. You know, people complain that he always seems to have an excuse for a poor pitching performance. I prefer to see it as trying to find an explanation for a bad day. After all, how easy would it be for him to disappear after a start and make himself unavailable to the media? Instead, he answers the question, “What happened out there today, Mike?” Maybe you don’t like the tone of his voice, but, give a guy a break – should he sound upbeat in that situation?
CB -
I understand your point about the improvement in the makeup of this year’s team. I would probably quibble, though, that Mientkiewicz and Cairo weren’t awful. Both managed to make some contributions during the season. But I do like what this year looks to offer.
i’d be happy with those projected stats, and i really do hope he can put that up, even for 1/2 a season. but why do they project his era do drop from 5.15 last season ?(and 5.95 aug and sept?)
melancon is pronounced melon-son, right?
that dude is money in the bank.
any chance he makes the opening day roster or is he a mid-season call-up?
“Proctor is a good relief pitcher.”
No he’s not. He was not good last year.
Looking at ERA or ERA+ for a relief pitcher is very deceptive because it doesn’t give you a picture with what the pitcher does with inherited runners or with how many base runners he leaves behind for others to clean up.
Also, looking at Proctors overall stats for the years is meaningless because he was traded to the NL west – an awful hitting division.
Look at what proctor did while he was on the yankees last year – his WHIP was 1.51.
In 54 innings he walked 29 hitters. That’s a BB/9 of 4.8.
That is awful. Not just bad. It’s awful. Relief pitcher cannot come into games and walk hitters. That absolutely kills teams.
Proctor did that all the time last year. All you had to do was follow the games – he was terrible and his WHIP and BB/9 show that.
Melancon will not make the team out of Spring Training. Not a chance.
He’s only got a handful of professional innings under his belt and he’s coming off TJ. No way are they going to immediately throw him into the lion’s den.
I do agree that we’ll probably see him after the ASB because this kid has the goods.
By all appearances, March 3rd has been dedicated as “Naysayer Day” on this board. It will eventually be known as the day many stuck a foot in their mouths for waving a white flag so early with certain players.
This happens to be the best spring training the Yankees have experienced in some time. Embracing it for what it’s worth is the answer.
How is it that Houston as already played 6 spring training games and the Yankees only 3?
I realize that when the games are over all we have left are statistics. Today, statistics seem to be more important then our own eyes. I’m not here to argue against ERA, ERA+, PECOTA, or any other stat for that matter. I believe in them, like, to an extent, but, on the other hand, I also believe, well, frankly, that statistics *alone* never tell you the *whole* story. In Moose’s case, they don’t even begin to quantify/qualify/instantiate his contribution to the team, unless you put *some* “weight” on one particular startistic … WINS.
Doreen,
I understand your point on Minky and Cairo. I don’t hold against anything against either.
But the value of both of those players depends on context. And I think both of them were poor fits for what the yankees needed last year.
Minky has never been strong with the bat but what exacerbated the problems he presented for the team was the fact that the yankees were already so left handed. Having a light hitting left handed bat was not what they needed.
That was made even worse by Giambi’s injury. That’s not minky’s fault but it exposed him badly.
With Cairo – I think he’s fine if you have another strong bat on the bench. But the yankees didn’t have that. With a bench of Phelps and Nieves besides him exposed his weaknesses even more.
A Duncan/ Betemit/ Ensberg/ Molina/ Giambi bench/ first base will be a huge upgrade.
Reeking of Optimism: Thank you!
Geez, I disappear for one day and it’s like everyone forgets what the word optimism is.
If you want to go mope about lousy fortune, go watch the O’s spring training. Or consider San Francisco and Barry Zito.
As for us, however, we’ve got an amazing team this year. I said as much last fall, and dude, believe me when I say you don’t just play .700 ball half of a regular season without it meaning something.
If you want to look at what this team can do, take a look at the second half of 2007, not the first. Then, from there, subtract Clemens but add all the guys we’re just getting to see now.
I mean, for goodness sakes, Jesus Montero hits a HR in his only big league ST AB and then gets sent down to the MiL camp, because, well, we’re not likely to have room for him on the roster.
I mean. If you’re going to complain about something right now, complain about too MUCH talent, and how it breaks your heart we will eventually have to give some of it up…
The plan for Mark Melancon remains intact. He’ll begin the season at High A Tampa and work his way up the east coast as the weather warms.
He gets to pitch in a programmed way of building his arm strength to the point of being effective at a peak time on or about the All Star break and at a time when other bullpen arms will appreciate his contributions.
Pete – I’m not down on Moose myself, but that was an excellent point about the absence of scouting reports.
SJ – one of the things I noticed watching Melancon today was that he “looked like he belonged”. In other words, he looked familiar for some strange reason, as well as comfortable on the mound. I noticed a little bit of this is McCutcheon as well.
CB – Lots of great points. If you remember my guest post here, I’m definitely on the same page as far as changes/improvements to this ballclub. This is a great time to be a Yankee fan just like it was in ‘96 – although now we actually have some foresight that we didn’t have then. With all of the information and access that the internet presents to fans, we are much more knowledgable of our teams’ organizational makeup now than we were 12 years ago. However, I would agree with Doreen that Minky was not awful.
Hey Pete, Moose still got no out pitch! Duh, and he hasn’t had one since last season. Remember that Detroit game in which he was basically hammered by EVERY batter on every pitch? I envision that happening eveRytime he’s out there this season.
This March 3rd excuse is getting tiring.
For guys like Kennedy, Hughes, and Pettitte, sure.
But this is Mussina’s MO – he hasn’t been able to finish guys off in at least 5 years!
So with it being March 3, in his case, it doesn’t matter, because he’ll be giving up hits on 1-2 counts in July. Just like the previous 5 or 6 years.
Exactly Rebecca and as some posters have suggested, this is a spring training that will see the final cuts difficult to make with the amount of good young arms that currently vie for spots. Many teams would love to be in this enviable position. The work ethic of this team is a widely talked about subject in baseball circles.
You saying Moose is a #3 starter makes me shiver…
Sure Proctor walked too many guys and had bad outings last year for the Yankees. But overall, he remains an effective relief pitcher – and his nubmers improved significantly after he went to LA and his usage pattern became a little less abusive. In addition, Proctor’s ability to carrry a heavy load increases his value. Proctor is a good relief pitcher.
We all saw this coming. We knew that if Mo didn’t do well, people would be ready to count him out.
People are entitled to their opinions. Just like those of us who know better are entitled to ours.
“he hasn’t been able to finish guys off in at least 5 years!”
Two years ago Mussina struck out 172 in 197 innings with a 1.11 WHIP. I’d say he finished guys off pretty well that year, so I don’t know who you think you’re fooling with this “Mussina’s been a bum for five years” campaign.
“but why do they project his era do drop from 5.15 last season ?(and 5.95 aug and sept?)”
Because a player is more than what he did last year. Unlike many fans, designers of those prediction models understand that you need to look longer term to make good predictions, AND look at other comparable players throughout history.
Basically, Moose was uncharacteristically bad last season. So, they project numbers more in line with what his expected career arc looks like, based on what other pitchers like him at similar points in their career did in the past.
If you look at what happened to Moose (missing ST with a leg problem), it’s really easy to understand why he had such a precipitous drop in velocity. He’s an aging pitcher who never got his legs under him. Of COURSE he lost several MPH. If he has a healthy spring this year, it’s reasonable to think that he’ll get at least some of that velocity back and be able to turn in a league average pitching performance.
Rebecker I’m sure you see Montero will be better player (sooner) because he’s going down to the minors where he’ll get more playing time. And doing it this soon gives other guys who are closer more playing time at this level. The hopeless naysayers, Negative Nancies and various other nincompoops can’t see that.
Clemens as you know was actually mediocre last year so (as I assume you may be alluding to) if just one guy can put up numbers better than his 6-6 / 4.18 / .266BA against for half a season, then the team’s made an improvement.
Despite his lack of high-priced stats, however, Clemens arrival to an injury-plagued, slumping team did bring some renewed enthusiasm. But I sense more enthusiasm’s already in place for this year with Girardi’s arrival, the conditioning, and the promising new guys being one year closer. Should be easy to do better than last year.
“But this is Mussina’s MO – he hasn’t been able to finish guys off in at least 5 years!”
In 2006 mussina had a WHIP of 1.1 and ERA+ of 129.
He wasn’t just good in 2006 – he was terrific.
I have my doubts about him but 2007 was a substantial decline from his performance the year before.
It will be interesting to see what happens to some of these pitchers that are going to start the season in the minors. At some point, the Yanks will need to either move people along or move them out (trade) to make room for those who are coming along.
One example of this is Kei Igawa – you can say “put him in Scranton”, but that will clog a spot that one of the kids with a future will need.
I get the impression that Steve White or Darrel Rasner may be in this category – certainly better than Igawa, but someone who they will need to make a decision on this year. Either tyhe are capable of making the Yankee 25-man roster or not, and, if not, then they need to deal them. This may speak of the success of our starters (including the Big 3) as much as anything, but decisions will need to be made. Just because one can’t break into the rotation/ pen in NY doesn’t mean that they can’t pitch in the majors. And if they are dealt, then what do we want in return?
Those may be as important decisions who gets dealt and for whom – as any that Cash makes.
If moose had a 4.500 ERA I will be ecstatic. he should be the 5th starter.. He came into camp a little lighter, workout in the offseason(never done before) we need him to pitch decent in his last season that is it.
Mussina isn’t asked to perform miracles, just eat some innings and gut it out for 6 innings with what he has left.
The man has enough self esteem to realize when he’s reached his limit for any given appearance and will alert Joe Girardi and Dave Eiland when that time arrives. He’s past the point of foolish pride. He knows what he is and knows what he isn’t. In another 2 weeks or 3 more starts we’ll see what he’ll be about.
WOLF
Where did Melancon top out today? I heard 93mph?
“People are entitled to their opinions.”
Sure. That doesn’t mean that I’m not entitled to use the reams of evidence that support my opinion to refute theirs. I mean…we’re here to discuss, right? If you’re not willing to listen to people who disagree with you, go tell your opinions to your dog. He’ll provide warm and loving support and never contradict a word you say.
Off topic: My friends from Paris are coming to visit me in June! The female one has already come to visit and I took her to some Yankee games. her favorite players are Matsui and Moose (oddly enough). I took her to games v. the Angels. Moose had a really good game, and she LOVED the Moose call.
I want to send her brother, for whom this will be his first trip to NY and his first baseball game EVER, a tshirt. Who should I send him?!?
“Patrick Bateman March 3rd, 2008 at 6:48 pm
My opinion of Mussina has nothing to do with his start on March 3rd.
All one has to do is look at his stats from last season.
Angels- 10.12 ERA
Orioles- 6.75 ERA
Red Sox- 9.26 ERA
Tigers- 13.50 ERA
Rays- 7.59 ERA
This guy isn’t going to get better. Wake up.”
———-
Thank you!!
whozat: it’s true. I was just trying to find a way to get people to relax. You’re allowed to engage in discussion. that’s what blogs are all about. Some people get a little upset though. Just trying to be helpful!
Ranting Guy: Yeah, you’ve got it.
A lot of the optimism comes from stuff you can’t find in the statistics, though–like, for example, the relationship between Phil, Ian, Joba and Shelley. No PECOTA analysis can ever quantify what that could mean to a team.
let’s put the Mussina talk to rest.
As SJ44 pointed out earlier, he had hamstring issues last year and that prevented him from throwing his changeup. He is one year removed from a terrific 2006. As SJ also said, he works off his curve. Let’s see how that looks once the season starts.
Is there reason for concern? Sure.
But to have this much talk about Moose being done as a result of a March 3rd game is insane. Again, he is ONE year removed from a 3.5 ERA. He had some injuries last year. Maybe that explains it. Maybe it doesn.t
Mussina could be horrible. He also could be good. None of us know. At least give the guy a chance to show that 2007 was a fluke before crucifying him. Let’s wait and see.
Denrico,
dont forget its early ST. Even if Melancon topped off at 90, that probably doesn’t mean anything. The radar guns should be turned off and banned from stadiums for at least another several weeks.
I sat behind a guy with a radar gun today. Jackson threw a 91mph heavy sinker, McCutchen’s last two pitches were 93 and 94 and Melancon hit 92 twice. Great arms for this time in the Spring.
Joe from L.I. -
Good point and this is the position the team needs to be in. The next wave of Yankees are in sight and to have a surplus to deal for needed parts not in the system is the plan that Cashman has wanted all along opposed to constantly using the free agent market and little else.
Patrick Bateman
When are you people going to learn. HE has pitching with a bad hamstring, back, hip.
Bronx Liaison
You missed the post earlier today. Someone said he hasn’t had an out pitch since the almost perfect game. You know he sat down 26 guys, yet he didn’t have an out pitch that game either.
All the posters who are jokes showed up today.
I have great respect for Mussina’s accomplishments, but if he can’t regain a respectable fastball, his days as an effective innings eater are over.
On a different note – I’m going down to Tampa this Thursday, and am looking for suggestions for restaurants. I know about Bern’s, of course, and Flemings. I looked up some others – Anyone heard of Roy’s, Donatello’s, or Ceviche Tapas Bar? Any other suggestions?
John you know there are pitchers out there without a fast ball. He doesn’t need one to be successful, he needs to place his pitches in spots.
Wait till Mo blows two saves at the beginning of the season, (like he always does) people will be crying that he is done and calling for Joba to close.
Joe Girardi must feel at this point that all is going according to plan.
As this month moves along, chemistry is seen building within from the veterans and the next generation of Yankees.
Add the enthusiasm and hard work of Shelley Duncan and the energy of Joe Girardi and it gets contagious.
To change the subject and hopefully calm things down just a bit, Phil Franchise (tm Pete) makes his first start of the spring tomorrow against the Blue Jays. Phil was wowing everyone in practice last week and maybe he will be able to do more of the same tomorrow.
Jennifer
In that case, I’m glad I missed it. Jumping the gun is taken to an art form on this forum.
Like someone said earlier, Moose could fall on his face this season or he could approach his 2006 numbers. Neither would be particularly surprising to me.
However, he is going to get a shot and he deserves it. Should he become a liability, Girardi and Company will judiciously take the proper steps.
Joe
I recommend Columbia in Ybor City (a section of Tampa). Great Cuban/Spanish cuisine. Outstanding house sangria on tap, and have a Mojito as well. Top notch stuff.
Here’s a menu:
http://www.columbiarestaurant.com/menu.asp
Well judging from the tone of Pete’s post, I’m very grateful I wasn’t around during or after the game today and didn’t have to see people calling for Moose’s head based on his first 3 IP of the *exhibition* season!
I do think stuff that happens in spring training is important, but Shelley said it best (as quoted by Pete on the blog) the other day – it’s the process that matters, not the results. Like with Shelley hitting the 3-run homer off Eaton the other day; it didn’t matter to me that he drove in 3 runs to help Yanks jump out to a lead, what was important was that he showed power vs a righty. Or Igawa last year – we didn’t need spring losses/huge ERA’s or grand slams to USF scrubs to know that he was gonna be bad, all you had to do was look at all those highballs he was throwing. Not the result, but the process. Shelley’s a smart cookie!
Anyway, I didn’t see/hear the game today so I don’t know how Moose looked overall. If he only had problems finding an out pitch, at least he knows early that that’s what he has to work on. To those who watched (b/c I can’t bring myself to wade through 400 comments about “Moose is done!1!1″) what was he throwing in all those 1-2 counts that resulted in hits? I love Moose but my one beef with him lately is he seems to throw his change too much in those critical 1-2 counts, and it gets hit. Was that the problem today?
Either way, plenty of time for him to work on it! I wholeheartedly believe in Moose and his ability to have a bounceback season. It wasn’t so long ago (2006) that he was 4th in the league in ERA! (And LOL @ him not being able to finish guys off for 5 years, nice try! What’s a 5-letter word for “untrue”?
)
Jennifer – you are so right about Mo. We get that every April when he gets off to a slow start.
The thing is, Mussina may be done. BUT NOBODY KNOWS!!!
All you people who claim to know for a fact that he’s done, you’re just guessing. You have no idea. Tell me, did Mussina have an injury last year that never got leaked to the press?
Can you answer that with certainty?
You think you KNOW for a fact while a guy like Girardi who sees him practice every single day, sees him in the trainer’s room, has caught 100s of pitchers, seen thousands on tape doesn’t?
You KNOW he’s done but Girardi doesn’t. LOL!
He may be ineffective in ‘08. You might be “correct” on a flat out guess. Whats funny to me is that you’ll think you were right, when the truth is you guessed right.
Even an idiot can call a coin flip correctly 50% of the time.
Joe from Long Island ;
If you want to see Yankees, go to a breakfast spot called Mother’s between 7-8:00 AM. It’s a little north of Steinbrenner Field.
All I can say is thank the gods of baseball that some posters aren’t in Cashman’s or Girardi’s position, and that they can’t influence those guys decisions. If they did, the Yanks would perform a lot more like the Knicks than they realize.
Bronx Liaison
Agreed. I think Mike was hampered severely by all his injuries and he knew they needed him to go out there and continue to pitch and he did. Now he didn’t do great most of the time, but there were other times when the old Moose came back.
Jennifer
I respectfully disagree. Mussina throws his breaking pitches out of the strike zone. He is not Greg Maddux. Major league hitters know this, and lay off. His sneaky fastball has been the key to his success. He uses (used?) it to set everything else up. It’s possible that he’s worked on his legs, and will have it back this year…I hope so…we’ll see.
John
He mentioned the other day that his back, hamstring, hip and his foot bothered him last season.
John in Ohio, Maybe Mike needs to learn to pitch inside. If he takes back that part of the plate it should help him.
Denrico – I didn’t catch any numbers, unfortunately. All I can say is that he looked great – especially considering that he is coming back from surgery. According to SJ and others, he is 100% healthy so I’m stoked.
Damn, I’m really bummed that I missed Melancon, that sucks. Not surprised to read he didn’t let an error bother him though, since we’ve all been hearing about his great mental makeup! I wouldn’t have expected anything less; in fact (in keeping w/the apparent afternoon hysteria on the blog, lol) if he HAD let the error bother him, clearly it would have meant that all those rave reports re: his makeup were untrue and that he was a bust! haha
Glad to hear about Karstens doing so well too. He is such a good guy who has had some bad luck so far, really hope things work out for him this time. I agree we need a long man and I’d like to see him or Ras be that guy.
Oh, and didn’t Edwar pitch today? How did he do? (Sorry to be lazy, normally I’d just read the comments, but incessant and reactionary Moose-hate seriously makes me want to punch babies. Especially on March 3rd!)
Ensberg had an error today. Did anyone see the play?
Good lord. Quoting ERA stats as the basis for the Moose argument. Is there no end to the stathead nonsense.
He had an awful outing against the Tigers. One game, bad ERA, that means he’s done?
Really, some of you stat guys have to learn a little more about the game.
You just throw out numbers without any context. Stats without context are worthless.
The game is more than just stats. The guy pitched with bad legs all season last year. Does that not factor into the stats?
He pitched quite effectively in 2006 when he was healthy. So the, “he hasn’t been good in 5 years” nonsense is out the window.
There isn’t a pitcher in camp at his optimum this early in the season. Not in stuff and not in velocity.
If he is healthy, he will produce closer to his 2006 numbers than his 2007 numbers IMO.
The guy knows how to pitch. You don’t just lose that.
You have to give him time this spring and see how it plays out.
Joe, I second Columbia Restaurant. Its outstanding.
If you aren’t going for steak (if you are, go to Bern’s. Its better than Fleming’s), Columbia is the way to go.
Check out this post at Was Watching…not much correlation between Moose’s spring numbers and regular season numbers. Everyone take a chill pill.
http://www.waswatching.com/arc.....pring.html
Jennifer
Other pitchers have reinvented themselves and prolonged their careers. He won’t need to if he gets the mustard back on his fastball. I’m pulling for him, but at 39 he’d better be emulating Nolan Ryan’s leg workout routine.
“John in Ohio, Maybe Mike needs to learn to pitch inside. If he takes back that part of the plate it should help him.”
Moose said in the audio linked off the last post that he was trying to go inside but was missing his spots in there and the ball was leaking back over the plate.
Oh my! A pitcher, not sharp with his location two weeks into spring training??? It’s a SHOCKER!
And as Mike has said. (what some people think) If you are a young established pitcher and have a bad month, it is just a bad month. If you are and old established pitcher and have a bad month you are done.
whozat
I hope you aren’t mocking me.
Give moose some time, i know he will be a dominant pitcher for us down the stretch…
scratch the dominant part and put decent…
i don’t quite see him as our number three at this point, but he is a veteran arm who could help be a good leader for the youngins, like Roger clemens was last year.
You know, there’s a reason I tend to shy away from stats on my blog.
They really aren’t everything.
Peter!
Do we not remember last season? MUSSINA WAS A DISASTER for most of it!
Jennifer
whozat’s not mocking you…he’s with you in Moose’s corner. We all hope he has a comeback year.
melkyy28
Do we not know that Mike was injured most of the season?
I think we’ll be fine if Moose can give us about 4 innings per start. After that, we put in Karstens or Rasner and cross our fingers until we get to the 7th.
What will happen if Hughes gets hit around tomorrow? Will he be “done” too?
The two things I came away with from Moose’s outing today was, he was healthy and he wasn’t beaten up over it.
The guy is notoriously hard on himself. If it was bad, he would be down in the dumps. He wasn’t.
Tells me he’s healthy, having the usual start of the spring feeling out there, and you have to see where it goes.
yikes …
Thank you so much for saying this. It made me day; you have no idea
Give the Moose a break, for crying out loud…It’s MARCH THIRD! Grow a brain!
John in Ohio, Florida Yank, SJ44 – Thanks for the tips.
You bet, Joe. And don’t forget to have a Mojito while at Columbia. It was Ernest Hemmingway’s favorite drink.
http://www.tasteofcuba.com/mojito.html
In other news:
Ovechkin had a hat trick for the Capitals in one period. They’re currently bangin’ up the Bruins, 8-2.
“whozat’s not mocking you…he’s with you in Moose’s corner. We all hope he has a comeback year.”
Yep. Not mocking Jen. Mocking all the chicken littles.
Man we talkin bout practice, practice man. Its not even a real game. Practice man
Mussina is one of my favorite post-dynasty Yankees. I’ve never been apart of the crowd who has bashed him. I didn’t see todays game so I suppose I can’t really judge his stuff. What he said about not having an out pitch is troubling though. During August last year, he was constantly getting into 0-2/1-2 counts on hitters and then surrendering hits after either driving the count even or full. Its very true that it is his first start but at the same time I am exercising caution when it comes to expecting Moose to be a positive contributor on the field.
I also see a lot of people commenting on Mussina just needing to eat innings. What good is eating innings if he is going to be posting terrible numbers in the process? I’d rather give someone else a shot if Moose sits around a 4.80-5.00 all year.
Pete, while I agree that Spring Training games aren’t all that important, I think you’re way off the mark thinking Mussina purposely pitched differently just because it was Houston. Pitchers usually face team’s they’re going to be playing later in the season. If they pitched differently than usual every outing in Spring, how will they be prepared to pitch normal come April?
Add me to the list that says Moose has a comeback year.
Ranting Guy,
I don’t think there is any question Mussina will start the year in the rotation (barring injury, of course). But I don’t think the Yankees will wait until the AS Break to make a decision if he is going bad. Keep in mind, we’re not having this debate about Mussina because of one bad inning. We’re having this debate about Mussina because last year he had an era of 8.9 in august and showed that he is no longer capable of being part of a 5-man rotation without getting significant time off at some point during the year. Watching the YES broadcasts, I distinctly remember Girardi being more critical of Torre than the other guys in the booth about Torre’s decision to keep going to Mussina in early August even when it was obvious to everyone the guy was out of gas.
So, I think Mussina will get some starts in April, but he will be on a short leash. There are a few different guys in the system that can eat innings and pitch .500 or better. Horne, Marquez, McCutchen and Karstens could probably combine together to give you 300 innings of .550 baseball if you let them go the whole season. Girardi knows this, and won’t hesitate to make a change if Mussina is ineffective.
For those throwing Mussina under the bus for his career with the Yankees.
He is fifth among all active pitchers in wins (250), shutouts (23) and complete games (57), seventh in strikeouts (2,661) and innings (3,357.3) and batters faced (13,749), ninth in BB/9 IP (2.018), and tenth in win-loss percentage (.633).
He signed a 6-year, $88.5 million contract with the New York Yankees on November 30, 2000.
Mussina finished the 2001 season with a 17-11 record. He was 2nd in the league in ERA (3.15), strikeouts (214), shutouts (3), and strikeout/walk ratio (5.10), and 5th in strikeouts/9 IP (8.42) and complete games (4). In addition, he held batters to a .216 batting average when there were 2 out with runners in scoring position.
In 2002, he was second in the AL in walks/9 IP (1.65), third in strikeouts (182) and strikeouts/9 IP (7.60), eighth in wins (18), and ninth in walks/9 IP (2.00). He held batters to a .198 batting average when the game was tied.
In 2003 he was third in the league in strikeouts/9 IP (8.18) and strikeout/walk ratio (4.88), fourth in strikeouts (195) and walks/9 IP (1.68), fifth in wins (17), and eighth in ERA (3.40). He held batters to a .190 batting average when there were two outs and runners in scoring position.
In 2004 Plagued by a series of injuries, he ended the year with a 12-9 record and a 4.59 ERA. He was fourth in the league in strikeouts (195), and eighth in walks/9 IP (2.19).[8]
In 2005, Mussina finished with a 13-8 record and a 4.41 ERA. He was seventh in the AL in strikeouts/9 IP (7.11).
In 2006, he ended the season with a 15-7 record. He was second in the league in OBP against (.279), third in the American League in walks/9 IP (1.60; a career-best), batting average against (.241), and strikeout/walk ratio (4.91), fourth in ERA (3.51), sixth in win-loss percentage (.682), eighth in strikeouts (172), and ninth in strikeouts/9 IP (7.84).
Since 2000 he has won over 100 games with the New York and one some pretty big games. Yet we want to call the game a bum. So am sorry this is far from the worst signing, infact is one of the better free agent pick ups we have had in the last 7 years.
Its obvious to most everyone Mussina is at the end of his career. He is not the same pitcher he was in 2000. Is he still good enough to be a 3 starter for this club? Only time will tell. I have to think Mussina has little left in his tank.
Again, I’m not worrying about Moose. Especially since I saw this: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03.....f=baseball
Did you all see that from yesterday? Eight runs in less than one inning? I agree with the general idea that you shouldn’t worry about early spring training performances, but that would have to make even the calmest Giant fan feel sick.
So we’ve got Pettitte having a career year, Mussina having a comeback year, Wang finally hitting the 20 mark and the Trio showing us that yes, they do in fact belong here. Way, way belong here.
I know no one’s ever won 162 games before, but hey, first time for everything, right?
“What he said about not having an out pitch is troubling though.”
Today. He said he didn’t have one today. He wasn’t locating his curve or his fastball, and he doesn’t have the velocity yet. Seriously…Pete should put on a filter that blocks any posts about Moose until march 24th.
For some perspective on Mussina -
last season the league average ERA for a #4 rotation was 4.88. For a number 5 starter – 6.02.
Mussina’s performance is going to depend on context – in particular how do Hughes and Kennedy pitch.
If Hughes and Kennedy pitch even up to say 80% of what we might guess they’ll do then Mussina slots back to a #5 pitcher and an ERA of 5.00 or so would be tolerable, particularly as it would only be for half a season until Joba goes back in the rotatio.
Last season Julian Tavarez had an ERA of 5.15 and Wakefield an ERA of 4.76.
“Pitchers usually face team’s they’re going to be playing later in the season. If they pitched differently than usual every outing in Spring, how will they be prepared to pitch normal come April?”
The point is not that they consciously pitch differently, but that they don’t study scouting reports, don’t worry about setting guys up with pitch sequences and all that. Clever pitchers pitch the same guys differently every time they face them. They are always adjusting.
The fact is one can cherrypick stats to prove a point. The opposite side to Moose’s bad performances against those 5 teams is to get to a 5.15 ERA overall his performances against the other 8 teams had to be pretty damn good.
Mussina’s year was exploded by the disasters in August (8.87 ERA in 5 starts) when he was lost – and admitted such. If he was done, how then did he rebound to post a 3.49 ERA in Sept. in 4 starts but 5 more IP? Riddle me that Mr. Selective stathead?
The reason Moose will be in the #3 slot is that if he doesn’t deliver 6 inning starts at the outset, he won’t be slotted next the #5 guy that may tend to deliver shorter outings too. Consecutive short outings kill a bullpen.
Finally, let’s not forget what this team went through in the first 2 months with the starting rotation:
11 different starters (Clemens not until June)
Mussina and Wang coming off hamstring DL stints.
6 different starters going on the DL.
Multiple sub-6 inning starts from callups and fill-ins.
This season we’re going in with 6 starters, with Karstens presumably in reserve plus others if disaster strikes. Others including Karstens will get starts – the Yanks have used 10 or more starters in each season of the past 4 seasons – 14 in ‘07, 12 – ‘06, 15 – ‘05, 11 – ‘04, and at least 9 each season this decade; 9, 9, 11, & 12 in ‘03 back through ‘00. Now each year typically 3 or 4 get 1 or 2 starts. But in each of the last 3 years there’s been at least 10 guys get 3 or more.
I can think of nothing that could do more for the Yanks as a team than to keep that last number at 7 or 8 for the first time since 2003.
Again…
(is this a hard concept to grasp?)
The people who are worried about Moose because of how he looks in Spring Training are NOT – I repeat, NOT – worried simply because of how he looks in spring training.
The worried because he is old, is in rapid decline, looked waaaaaay washed up last year, and now is looking bad in spring training.
This spring training does not exist in a vacuum.
Barto:
They are not really going to worry too much about exactly how to get the guy out at this point in ST. It’s more like a pre-flight checklist right now, to make sure Moose can do certain basic things. He’ll work on sharpening up the details from hereon out. Remember, he’s a veteran – - he hasn’t been throwing for 3 weeks like Hughes, IPK and Joba.
You know what I think the really big problem is?
Most of us are thinking about Moose’s starts in August in 07. Granted, with the exception of the game I went to (funny how that works) they were BAD, in any context.
Problem is, the rest of August, the Yankees were that good that it makes Moose’s poor outings stand out that much more.
Spring Training does not exist in a vacuum, but then neither does one really bad month in a very long career.
At least, though, if it doesn’t work out, we have options to fix the problem. Not every team has that benefit.
If moose can not beat Astros,I doubt him how he can beat AL East teams.Yankees need moose’s munbers,let’s pray he can progressed this season.
the guy ended poorly last year. now he’s older. nobody’s throwing in the towel yet, but the trend is very bad for moose. not because of today but because of last season + 1 yr.
“The worried because he is old, is in rapid decline, looked waaaaaay washed up last year, and now is looking bad in spring training.”
True, at 39 Moose is at the upper end of the useful life of an MLB pitcher. Whether he is in rapid decline or not, however, is unclear. A lot depends on some unknowns like what exactly was wrong last year. Was it injuries? Phil Hughes lost 2-3 mph off his fastball when he first came back and he’s a lot younger than Moose. But Phil seems to have his MPH back. IMO, Moose, if healthy, will regain sufficient MPH to be effective.
True also that Spring Training does not exist in a vacuum. But it is wrong to judge the first outing like a regular season start or a continuation of last season. In the proper context of ST, Moose does NOT look bad and it’s way too soon to pronounce him DOA.
Wow, wow, wow. So much hating… Not that one more opinion, speculation, or rant will change anything, but here’s mine: Moose has been great and may have it in him to be great again. He played through a lot last season and did okay. If he’s healthy again and stays healthy, he’ll do fine. He’s a veteran. If he does do awful, the Yankees are not sunk. We have a lot of talent and plenty of options to eat up innings. It may not be pretty sometimes, but I think we’re going to do just fine. Even if Moose’s ERA is over 5, take a look at the Yankee’s line up and bench. If he’s matched up with other back of the rotation pitchers, the offense should be able to provide plenty of security. Even if his stuff isn’t as nasty as it was, he’ll still be good enough to put 10 or more in the win column.
wowwow-
It’s his first start, gimme a break!
I just do not see how any Yankee fan feels alright with Moose as the #3 starter! This man should be the long man out of the pen OR AT THE MOST A NUMBER 5 STARTER! He is DONE.
It is clear that most of these “chicken littles” have never followed spring training before.
“I just do not see how any Yankee fan feels alright with Moose as the #3 starter”
Because he’s not. Hughes and Kennedy will both probably perform better. Just because he goes third does not make him the third best starter.
Anthony-
If he had pitched 3 perfect innings, would you say he will 20 games?
“Even if Moose’s ERA is over 5, take a look at the Yankee’s line up and bench. If he’s matched up with other back of the rotation pitchers, the offense should be able to provide plenty of security.”
This is why people jumping all over mussina should calm down. He really doesn’t need to be great. He just needs to be an average #4 or #5 starter.
As I wrote before the average AL #4 had an ERA of 4.88 and #5 starter had an ERA of 6.02.
The red sox got an era of over 5 from their #5 slot and they had the best pitching in the AL.
Mussina is only going to be in the rotation for 1/2 to 2/3 of the year and then in all likelihood joba will take his spot in the rotation.
And unlike last year, the yankees will have decent option if Moose implodes. They can slot in Horne, Marquez or even McCutcheon.
They have depth. They are in good shape this spring.
(Blazing Saddles voice) “I agree with Snuffy holdstrong.”
So Buchholz gave up 4hits 5runs in two innings yesterday vrs the offensively challenged Twins. I guess he is a bum too right? The heck with playing 162 games we know all we need to know by the first game of ST.
IM going to go out on a limb here and predict that there will be 100’s of the sky is falling, we need a closer, Mo is done when he blows a save or 2 in April. He does it all the time but regardless people have the sky is falling moment and go off the deep end. Same thing happens in late summer when he goes throgh the same thing.
It would be nice if people do not make instant determintions about players and their careers based on one game or one pitch etc.
I know it is asking a lot.
Rankdog, thank you!
gayle you know what they say. Great minds, I said the same thing earlier. Every single year for the past few Mo blows 2 save in April. And every single year people say Mo is done.
You’re welcome Rebecca. I am from Oneida area originally…. Go Orangemen!!
I loved what McCutchen and Melancon have contributed so far this ST, the great news is they aren’t even in midseason form Melancon top 92 mph later on this season chances are he will top 95 and McCutchen was nasty today.
SJ, CB I need your take on these 2 and Albaladejo has also impressed me. Edwar has disappointed me so far, I hope he gets it together.
It all boils down to this: What will Girardi and Cashman do if this trend continues? Do they:
A. Ride it out until May or June and hope to God that Mussina gives them 5-6 good innings per game at below 6.00 era, which I highly doubt will happen but the Yankees brass seems to think that Mussina is 29 not 39 for some reason.
B. Give Mussina 3-4 starts and if he can’t make it past the 4th inning average per game do they:
1. Let Karstens get the 5th spot
2. Mix and match like they did last season with AAA callups every 2 weeks to give Horne, Igawa, and Marquez some starts
3. Put Joba back in the rotation
It will be interesting.
Something though to think about is that not only us ill informed Yankees fans but lots of MLB scouts have been quoted saying that Mussina is washed up. Now, whether it is fair to judge him on a terrible August 07 and 2 outings in ST 08, the trend does not look good. The question is, how will Girardi and Cashman handle a washed up Mussina?
Side note:
Remember the Matsui for Noah Lowry rumors over the winter? Was SF trying to pawn off damaged goods?
Noah Lowry was pulled from his start Monday after walking nine batters in one-plus innings against the Rangers.
This is getting quite alarming. Lowry walked three, hit a batter and threw two pitches to the backstop in his first outing last week. He had a couple of more sail to the backstop today. It appears that he’s either injured or he’s suddenly gone Rick Ankiel on the Giants.
It is absurd to think that a few innings at the start of spring training tells us anything about how good/bad a pitcher will be in the upcoming season. It may turn out that Mussina will stink this year, but we certaintly can’t judge that at this point. Let the guy get his work in this spring and see how things play out in April and May.
Buddy Biancalana -
The point is he DIDNT pitch 3 scoreless innings. My patience level with Moose has hit rock bottom. I really hope the Yankees dont bring him back for 09 and beyond.
Let him go back to the O’s
Shame on you for judging Lowry after 1 ST game! That’s a sin to the highest degree, unless of course your name is Kei Igawa and then I guess its ok. TIC!
“lots of MLB scouts have been quoted saying that Mussina is washed up. ”
Is that actually true, or by “scouts” do you mean “ESPN commentators and radio talk show hosts”?
the mailbag over at yankees.com discusses the mussina issue. here are a few good quotes.
“…a lot has to be traced to the left hamstring injury Mussina suffered in Minnesota. If you think about it, pitchers report to Spring Training weeks before anyone else so they can prepare for the season. When a pitcher is injured midseason, he doesn’t have the luxury of taking six weeks to build up his strength again.
Most times, the demand is to get back as soon as possible, because the team needs you. That’s essentially the position Mussina was in last year…”
“He’s 39 and isn’t going to get away with many mistakes, but I’d still take Mussina’s pitching smarts over most. There’s a reason Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy are huddling up near his locker this spring.”
I have read numerous articles by our esteemed NY media horde where they have quoted scouts saying that they thought Mussina was washed up and also in the Annual Baseball mags. But hey, go look it up yourself.
What I’m saying if he is done, how long will it take Girardi to do something and how will he and Cash deal with it? How they handle it could be one of the big keys to this whole season.
Okay, right now my gut is telling me that the worst team in each league will be:
AL: Baltimore Orioles
NL: San Francisco Giants
What about you guys? Should I make a contest of it?
I’m thinkin’ both Baltimore and the Giants could easily lose 100 games each.
I inadvertently posted this on an old thread. So I’m reposting because I wanted to join Rebecca in the optimist club.
In fact, I want to be the first on the blog (that I know of, at least) to predict a World Series Championship this year.
I think this team has the perfect blend of veterans, particularly those in the last year of their contracts who know this is their last, best hope for a ring, plus great kids who don’t even know how much pressure they’re supposed to feel. Add in a long-overdue new manager, who absolutely won’t tolerate complacency and will have this team prepared and fired-up for the post-season, as well as a deep bench and farm system to fill-in for the inevitable injuries, and I think we’re in for a magical year.
Well this just seems like a continuation from last season…….You can patronize the Blog Lord ( Pete A. ) or stay the party line, but Mussina is done….I’d love to see him rebound, but’s in most unlikely folks….He’ll be given every chance and he will eventually pitch himself out of the rotation……To answer the question would I rather have an unproven Ian Kennedy take the ball every fifth day rather than Moose….YES….This isn’t Billy Chappel ( Kevin Costner ) this is a fading pitcher who has been sliding for quite sometime…….
Clare, have I told you that I like the way you think?
“I have read numerous articles by our esteemed NY media horde where they have quoted scouts saying that they thought Mussina was washed up and also in the Annual Baseball mags. But hey, go look it up yourself.”
No. You’re the one making unsubstantiated claims. I’ve heard everyone on ESPN and plenty of media types jump on the Moose-is-done bandwagon, but that doesn’t mean jack. When there’s no consequence to being wrong, everyone jumps at the chance to tear someone down. Fact is that his velocity was down last season and he performed poorly. There’s a strong chance this was due to leg injuries that never healed. Dontrelle Willis had just as bad a year in a weaker league…is he done too? No, he was just injured or had mechanical problems or was unmotivated because his team was terrible, right?
Look, we KNOW that Moose had leg injuries all year. We KNOW that he didn’t have his legs under him all season. OBVIOUSLY this could have affected his velocity — since, you know, pitchers generate their velocity with their legs. So why is it a foregone conclusion that he’s “done”?
I don’t know that Pete is saying that Moose is definitely going to be amazing. I think he’s just saying that he’s not definitely going to suck.
“this is a fading pitcher who has been sliding for quite sometime…….”
Yeah…that 2006 was TERRIBLE. 3.51 ERA, 1.11 WHIP, almost 5:1 K:BB ratio…what a horrible pitcher he was two years ago!
If Mussina is your fourth or fifth starter this year, everything is right with the world. If Mussina is your third starter, there will be problems. No one who knows baseball should care what Mooses line is on March 3, but after last year, it would be nice for him to have some quality innings in the spring.
Anthony-
In 2006 Moose was pretty damn good, being hurt last year obviously affected him. I am looking forward to seeing him rebound from his injuries & not judge him on one start which is totally idiotic.
why are we talking about Mussina why not McCutchen or Melancon, dammit it’s ST the least we can do is talk about who’s impressing.
The other question besides how are Cash and Girardi going to handle the inevitable when it does happen, is what level of mediocrity or “suckiness” will they and we as fans tolerate from Mussina?
What is ok from your #3 starter? I think 15 wins and a 4.20 or so era are the stats for a #3 on a championship caliber team, is there anyone that expects that from Mussina this year?
Thanks Rebecca!
I’m feeling particularly happy about this team at the moment after spending the weekend in Tampa. I know it’s early, but I loved what I saw. The weather was beautiful, I saw ARod’s first homerun of the spring, and Wang and Pettitte looked great. It was a great start to what I believe will be an awesome year.
Optimistically speaking (shout-out to Rebecca), is there going to be THIS much agonizing over every outing from Mussina this year? Man. I’m encouraged because Mike said he was healthy and that he felt good throwing the ball, so I will leave it at that.
Clare- Don’t forget about Shelley, he was absolutely raking in Saturday’s game.
I completely agree with your post about the Yankees having a shot to win it all. It’s time for Number 27 or veintisiete, as my handle says!
So if Mussina says he is now healthy and he still gives up 4 runs in 2 innings, and has a similar shaky outing before that, that sure doesn’t inspire much confidence that last year 5+ era was soley due to injuries.
Brandon,
I’ve like Melancon since he was drafted. I thought he was a great pick given how late they got him and was more than willing to take the risk of his elbow given his talent.
He’s going to be a good one. I just don’t know if it’ll be this year.
I’m being very cautious with him because he’s only thrown like 17 professional innings and 9 of those were in Hawaii.
The combination of injury and lack of professional experience are two major independent barriers. Either one alone makes it unlikely for someone to progress to the majors in less than a year. Together they are very difficult to surmount.
I hope I’m wrong. We’ll see.
I really, really like McCutcheon. A lot. People knock him for his advanced age but I don’t think that matters much. No one needs him to be a #1 or #2 starter here.
What I really like about McCutcheon is that he doesn’t walk hitters. He has very good command. A nice fastball, good curve and a nice change.
Horne has the most upside of the close to ready prospects (by far). McCutcheon doesn’t have nearly that upside but he may have a lower floor than Horne. Question with Horne is always going to be his command. That could be a real limit to his major league effectiveness. I don’t think that’ll be an issue for McCuthcheon.
I see McCutcheon being a very good long reliever/ swing man in the future. A Karstens type only with much better velocity and much better stuff. He’ll be a real weapon out of the pen.
Here’s something to be optimistic about: Moose had 0 walks today. That’s pretty good!
Can someone tell me how McCutchen and Melancon did today? I was at the doctor all day. 3 freaking hours…grr.
what are we talking about at this hour?
noah lowry and the close call we had in trading godzilla for him? thank goodness that didn’t happen.
hey andrea,
they both did quite well. if i’m not mistaken, mc cutcheon gave up a hit and melancon had an excellent outing. there was an error by whomever it was playing first base at the time
( miranda? ) but he got out of the inning with a DP after a long at bat.
Melancon showed great poise today when he was able to battle after that error and induce the double play. That kind of poise is something that you can’t teach or buy in a store, either you have it or you don’t.
you’re right about that J-dawg. and he must have thrown at least 8 or 9 pitches to get that DP. very patient and clever as well
J-Dawg: Optimistically speaking we’ll all be here to root for him.
BTW, do you come by PBP anymore?
Nitpick time! I actually could see Mussina as the #4 starter, to put a vet in between Hughes and Kennedy.
But otherwise, I agree.
MikeEff (hey!) and J-Dawg–thanks for the info! I was hoping to be able to watch mobile gameday while I was in the dr office, but it wasn’t not available for this game. I guess they don’t do it for the phone during ST. I was disappointed. I could see play by play, but it doesn’t tell you much about pitchers.
CB,
Hawaii’s part of the USA, you know. It’s not a bunch of natives living in grass huts!
thanks CB I think the same too, can you see if Moose does have problems can Daniel McCutchen step in his # 4 or 5 role if needed ?
And what’s your take on Albaladejo
Mikeff Cody Ransom was the 1B and was literally horrible there. Gonzo and Betemit looked good at SS and 3B today.
Christopher – if he’s stinking up the house for the first 10 weeks straight, I’d hope they’d do something different like use him elsewhere or not at all. I was one of the ones saying he was done in August … however I’m saying let’s see how it goes instead of considering him toasted right now now. If he has 6 or 7 bad outings in those first 10 weeks, that could be problem. But 2 or 3 bad outings in those 10 weeks maybe not so bad. What gets me and several others here and now is that people are going freakin’ berzerk on him just one inning into spring training. Imagine if he goes 3-2 with a 4.10 and one ND in his first 6 starts … he’ll be vilified as the second coming of Igawa!
The Yankee season will not depend on Mike Mussina. Whether he pitches well or poorly, the Yanks will be fine.
Andrea if it works here’s today’s game
thanks brandon, there were so many position changes that the broadcasters couldn’t be bothered with that i couldn’t keep up.
“So if Mussina says he is now healthy and he still gives up 4 runs in 2 innings, and has a similar shaky outing before that, that sure doesn’t inspire much confidence that last year 5+ era was soley due to injuries.”
Seriously, it’s like talking to a wall. I’ll try to keep it short and simple.
Last year, pulled hammy, no leg strength all season, fastball slow, performance bad.
Now, legs healthy…but IT’S THE BEGINNING OF MARCH!!! So his legs aren’t in pitching shape yet. No one’s are. Fastball, thus, is slow. Control, not there yet. Performance, thus, is bad.
I am with CB on today’s game. McCutchen and Melancon looked great on the hill. They, along with Ohlendorf (sp?) are going to give the ‘pen a boost after the break and make Farnsy moot.
We also got to see Frankie Cervelli have a great game behind the plate, work two walks and get a base knock up the middle. If all goes well, the Yanks will have a nice little catching prospect in Frankie.
Lastly, the bench is going to be outstanding this year with Shelly, Ensberg, Bettemit and Molina. Much better options than the trash that we have had in the past.
Things are looking up people.
dammit Pete’s blog doesn’t allow me to post the Houston game I tried twice already
“thanks CB I think the same too, can you see if Moose does have problems can Daniel McCutchen step in his # 4 or 5 role if needed ?”
No. CB said long reliever/swingman in the future. He’s had part of a single season at AA. If he’ll ever be a full-time starter, he clearly needs more seasoning before he’ll be ready.
And why would they jump him over guys like Rasner and Karstens who actually have some MLB success, and over a guy like Horne who’s already dominated AA for a whole season?
lets try again
today’s game
Mussina’s numbers for 06 are decieving…He started off great that season, won his 9th game of the season in June…He pulled up lame in Minnesota later that month I believe..He hasn’t been the same since…Oh yeah, he failed to hang on to the lead in Game 2 of the ALDS vs. Detroit @ home……I like Moose and he’s been a vital part of the Yanks since his arrival in 2001…..But the truth is he’s fading and he’s done….It’s admirable that many have faith that he’ll just turn back the clock and once again be a solid starter….Just go back to last September and rethink your position….That dog just doesn’t hunt anymore…..WHOAZT
thanks for clearing that up whozat
“He pulled up lame in Minnesota later that month I believe.”
Yes. He had a hammy problem that hampered him. He had the same problem starting early last season — like a zillion other guys on the team. Not related to the 06 problem, related to the S/C guy not having the team condition right. And he never got over those problems all year.
Clearly, Moose needs his legs under him to be effective, like basically any pitcher. I don’t understand why people can’t comprehend that, now that he’s had an offseason to rest it and will have a full ST to build his legs…he’s a good bounce-back candidate.
Also, if he replicates his 2006 second half performance…that’d still be fine for our needs! We don’t NEED him to put up a 3.5 ERA. I’d love that, but all we really need is league average innings out of him.
“When are you people going to learn. HE has pitching with a bad hamstring, back, hip.”
jennifer:
I don’t really care what his problems are with hamstrings, back, and hip. If he can’t pitch, he can’t pitch. Just like I’m not counting on Carl Pavano to help this year either. He’s got injuries too. People just don’t want to face the reality that Mike Mussina in 2007 and 2008 isn’t Mike Mussina from 1995. In the past 6 years, he’s got 200 innings twice and a sub 4 ERA twice. Peter and many other people on this site just can’t admit the facts. He’s done, and would better serve this team as a middle reliever where he can rest his arm and maybe hit 90 on a gun once in a while.
When Mussina was replaced by Kennedy, then came back and pitched he threw much harder, in the high 80’s and even touched 90. Thats not an indicator of someone who is injured, its an indicator that he needs more time to rest. Obviously he can’t do it every 5 days anymore. When Cashman or a writer has the testicular fortitude to tell Mussina he would be more beneficial out of the bullpen, then this team has a chance to more forward. Until then, I expect a loss every time he takes the mound vs a good hitting team, as shown last season.
“Hawaii’s part of the USA, you know. It’s not a bunch of natives living in grass huts!”
I love Hawaii! If only more the united states could be like the aloha state. The world would be a much better (and happier place).
Hawaii was a reference to winter ball.
I don’t see McCutcheon being used this year with the big club unless a lot of other guys fall through or its 2007 all over again with injuries. Horne and Marquez are ahead of him.
Remember – mccutcheon isn’t on the 40 man roster and wouldn’t need to be for a while. not a big deal but it is an issue with mid season call ups.
We’ll just have to wait and see with Mussina. Again, because the rest of the staff looks good (and much better than last year given that we’ve replaced igawa and pavano with hughes and kennedy and wang won’t be out for a month). I think the club can tolerate seeing what moose has to offer.
The rotation will eventually sort itself out. So will the bullpen.
We may not know all the names filling the spots yet but I think they’ll have a quality staff 1-11 (i’m excluding farnsy here).
If moose is a disaster they’ll give someone else a shot – karstens, rasner, horne, ….
Remember, Joba is going to slot back into the rotation and he’s going to take mussina’s spot in all likelihood.
I’m not worried about Moose at all. think about this:
- Every single one of our best players is back
- We have the 3 kids + more who we didn’t have last year
- We locked in a long contract with Robbie who’s poised to be our next superstar
- We have a new hands-on manager who looks to be a better motivator and more prepared in-game strategist
- And everyone seems to be in great shape, even Giambi
Just rewind back to last October, which wasn’t that long ago, did anyone expect to have the team that we have now?
My only complaints right now are that I don’t get some of these ST games on TV, and we can’t get a refund for Igawa. Other than that, all is swell in my Yankee land, even grumpy old Moose!
So in the preview of the Jays I just did on my blog, I said that a healthy Jays rotation is better than the BoSox.
Am I off my rocker?
the Houston game if you missed it
Hey I hope Mussina can be decent for about 8 starts or so….It’ll help keep Joba’s innings down until Memorial Day….I clearly remember SJ44’s ranting and raving about Mussina being washed up and tearing into Cahman for inking him…Then today he goes on about Yankee fan’s DNA…..I hope he tapes his ankles tightly this season so he doesn’t sprain them this season as jumps from wagon to wagon….
Rebecca – let’s see on Mar 31, which is in 27 days!!
No, you’re correct Rebecca. A healthy Jays rotation is better than Boston’s in its current state.
people if you missed today’s game go on mlb.com, click listen closely at the header next to Teams site, click the scoreboard option, you should then see all the scores on a boxscore, then click where the Nyy vs Hou, click MLBTV, it should play the game after that w/ commercials.
Hey Whozat; are you Mussinas’ agent? Some fans are just blind to the facts. They refuse to remove their pinstripe colored glasses. Mussina is through. He’s been cooked for the last year and a half. People are letting their spring training optimism get in the way of reality. This team doesn’t need a sub par Mussina. He’s seen better days. I’d prefer Karstens over this vintge Mussina any day of the week.
Brandon, thanks!
Karstens was the Club’s top starter coming out of last seasons Spring Training….He would have been the Season Opening Starter then he was hurt…..Last year was a wasted season for him….Out of professional respect, Mussina gets every chance to prove his worth to the club…He’s earned that, but let’s hope he come to grips with reality……
hey rebecca i just read your piece on the jays…very astute.
if the sox had their rotation they might be unstoppable…unless of course they have ruined mcgowans arm by doubling his innings as they have done with many of their guys.
Brandon: awesome!
Am off, have a great night all. Just three days till Spring Break….
Mussina sitting at 84,85 is worrisome.
April 3rd is my birthday and I have to watch Mike Mussina throw 85 against the Blue Jays. Awesome
chris…maybe you should celebrate a day or two early
Mike Mussina is the best pitcher in baseball. Hands down.
Folks, let’s also remember it the first week of ST so once the 6th innings rolls around its AAA time. McCutcheon and Melancon had fine debuts, but they weren’t facing major leaguers today. Very good possible pieces for the future, maybe the nearer future than we think. But today isn’t necessarily an indicator of that.
This back and forth on Mussina is wearing thin. Simple proclamations like he’ll rebound or he’s done are opinions, not facts. He’s certainly in decline, how steep that is we’ll see – and whether it’s manageable.
That he hasn’t had an ERA under 4 but twice in X is also meaningless. Only 25 pitchers in all the AL last season with 100+IP did that. That would make you a #2 on average. Our #2 didn’t do that! The 3 teams with 3 who did were the Angels, Jays, and Royals. 2 didn’t make the playoffs, the other was swept out in round 1.
We don’t need Mussina to achieve that either. It would be great if he did, but it’s highly unlikely. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible for him to have a better year than last, however. What we would like is 18-22 starts at a level of effectiveness we can compete with. If he doesn’t deliver, I’ve little doubt he’ll be moved aside. I still expect at least 10 starts to be made by other than the top 6. Let’s hope they do okay as well.
Wow, over 200 posts for 3 March and an ST game. Ya gotta love this blog and Yankee fans.
It seems to me that we should be rooting for Moose to do well. What good comes from trashing your own?
This is going to be a great year. If Moose is able to get back to something more reflective of the numbers on the back of his baseball card, we win. If he can’t, and Eiland and Joe move quickly to put one of the young talents in that spot, we win.
“Simple proclamations like he’ll rebound or he’s done are opinions, not facts.”
Yes.
But, that he was hampered by leg problems all season stemming from an early season injury that never had time to heal IS a fact. That he rushed back from the injury because the Yankee rotation was collapsing around us is also a fact. That his velocity dropped is a fact. That pitchers generate velocity from their legs is also a fact.
Given these facts, what can we conclude?
That there is a very good chance that Moose’s velocity loss was due to leg issues. After resting them for a full offseason and taking a full ST to build strength properly, does it seems reasonable that he could turn in the kind of performance we need from him? Based on these facts, my opinion is that yes, yes he can.
I’m not his agent. I just prefer to build my opinions off an understanding of WHY things have happened as opposed to looking at the surface details and making a knee-jerk conclusion.
whozat -
I’m with you, but at this point, you are preaching to the choir!
Buddy Biancalana -
I think its crazy to label Moose as a #3 starter. He is a #5 starter on the Yankees, case closed.
agreed. Moose may sit in the 3 spot in the rotation behind Andy, but what the Yankees basically need from him is to give 5-6 innings a start, and have an ERA that sits somewhere around 4.5… They need him to be a serviceable 5 starter at this point, which is well within his grasp.
People need to relax with this washed up stuff. Take a look around baseball, and the back of other team’s rotation, and then be thankful you have a pitcher like Moose to round out this rotation. He’s not the Moose the Yankees signed back in 2001, but they dont need him to be anymore.
Pete, by your logic if we should not be worried about Mussina getting hammered then we should also not be as impressed by what McCutchen or Melancon do in the spring. It goes both ways.
Don’t want him killed but glad this is his last year. He along with some of the others *long in the tooth* have had their day~ Yankees must get younger in order to compete!
Peter, why do you continue the Mussina inflation effect??? We are not flipping out because he had one poor inning in Spring Training. We are flipping out because Mussina has been absolutely TERRIBLE in the last 2 seasons and there is no reason to believe he will be any better this year. If anything, he will be worse. When he came in to mop up last year in the playoff game, it was as if we should be happy that he only gave up a few runs. This guy has no business being the #3 starter by any stretch! Are you crazy?? Please tell me that you honestly think Hughes, Joba, or Ian are not better than Mussina right now. The only reason Mussina is on this roster right now is because we need a pitcher to pick up the slack for innings that Hughes, Kennedy, and Joba can’t cover due to their limits. He’s better than Kyle Lohse, and we’d still have to pay him if we signed Livan Hernandez or someone of that ilk (that ilk meaning better than Mussina). So please Pete, don’t chastise us. I watch the Yankees every single day, just like you, and although I may not be around the club as much as you, this I do know: every day that Mussina starts, I tend to not watch.
Ranting Guy, et. all,
I can only speak for myself, but I will say I am not flipping out about Mussina because of what he did in one ST start. I was unhappy when Cashman resigned Mussina to a two-year deal, and I thought he was completely done last summer. Going into this off-season, I felt that the Yankees would need to figure out another option for 5th starter, and that some combination of Karstens/Horne/McCutchen/Marquez would probably get it done.
However, since we are talking about Mussina’s ST appearance, I will say that his comments after the outing made it seem like he’s in as much denial about his stuff as he was last summer when he was incredulous at being dropped from the rotation after getting mauled in August. He claims that he just didn’t have his strikeout pitch… well, he didn’t have a strikeout pitch at any point last year, either. He was among the worst in the league at converting two-strike counts to K’s, and he was the worst in the league at getting batters to swing and miss. He simply doesn’t have it any more. He didn’t have it last year, and chance are he still doesn’t have it. At this point, it’s up to him to prove the position wrong, but I don’t think he can. At this point in his career, he is only marginally effective off of extended rest and utterly useless as part of a 5-man rotation.
joe from long island.
come across the bay to largo, try the E&E steakout. terribly fine place to eat.
i have come to a conclusion. the only reason to play the game is to screw with the stat heads.
Suck up what innings Pete? This guy runs the count to 2-2 or 3-2 on almost every batter and his pitch count gets to the high 90’s by the 4th inning? You call that sucking up innings? Great way to burn out your bullpen that way.