Relivers boost Yankees to 7-6 win
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- March
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The Yankees held off the Astros 7-6 thanks to good relief work from Steven Jackson, Dan McCutchen and Mark Melancon.
They pitched the final three innings, allowing one hit. Cody Ransom committed an error with one out in the bottom of the ninth but Melancon got Tomas Perez to ground into a double play to end it.
Jeff Karstens worked three scoreless innings to get the win. Just a feeling at this point, but I suspect he will make the team. Joe Girardi wants a long reliever and Karstens seems best suited for the job. His competition is Darrell Rasner, Steven White and Kei Igawa.
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on Monday, March 3rd, 2008 at 4:56 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
I won’t have a good feeling about Karstens until I see him get out legitimate power hitters. That’s always been his achilles heel.
Kei Igawa is no one’s competition.
Que Igawa?
Girardi has a really tough decision…Which pinata will he go with? I say it will be Gilbert Gottfried.
Hmm, wonder what it is like to re-live
You actually think that Kei Igawa won’t be on the roster to start the season?
Insanity!
Next thing you know, we’ll be spoon-fed malarkey such as Carl Pavano NOT being our opening day starter! Come on now, Mr. Abraham, get your act together!!!
Kei Igawa should make no plans to frequent Beni Hana’s unless there’s one in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre or Trenton.
“I won’t have a good feeling about Karstens until I see him get out legitimate power hitters. That’s always been his achilles heel.”
If he was adept at getting out real power hitters, he’d be a starter candidate. We’re just looking for a long reliever and spot starter here. He just has to wiggle through the order twice while keeping his team in the game.
I really think it’s not too much to ask of Karstens or Rasner to be able to do that.
You actually think that Kei Igawa won’t be on the roster to start the season? Insanity!
Next thing you know, we’ll be spoon-fed malarkey such as Carl Pavano NOT being our opening day starter! Come on now!
How’d the relievers get those 7 runs?
And what’s a reliver?
where’s our resident Karstens-basher “Jay” ? I’m sure he’ll be around soon to let us know that Karstens can’t get out little leaguers.
The reality is that he should prove to be a useful long reliever.
The fact that Rasner is available if the Yanks should have injuries is also great. We won’t need to rely on Sidney Ponson, Scott Erickson, Tim Redding, or guys like that if we need a spot start and the young arms aren’t ready.
If Jeff Karstens can be a long reliever for the Yankees, like Ramiro Mendoza as during the dynasty years, he will be a great asset to the Yankees since the rotation is already set for this season. He will not crack the rotation due to the pitching depth of the Yankees.
Dave,
He was around earlier. Said the Yankees “threw in the towel for the game” by inserting Karstans.
Pretty funny when you think about it. First time I have ever heard of a team “throwing in the towel” in a meaningless game.
Karstans doesn’t have to be an all star. Its what some folks have a hard time grasping.
He has to pitch 50-60 good innings this year. That’s it. If he can do that, he can help the team.
His best role on this team, if he is healthy, is as a long guy/swing starter when needed.
Those guys are unique because they have to be ready to pitch on an uneven schedule.
If Karstans can do it, he helps the team.
I tend to root for guys that can help the team.
But, what do I know, I’m a Yankee fan. I actually have the audacity to want to see guys wearing pinstripes do well.
How did Melancon look? I think we’d all really love some details about him. The more the better.
Of the four pitchers that Pete mentioned for long reliever, I would certainly think that Karstens has an edge and can get the job done.
Lot of sarcasm above in this posting…
Karstans pitching well doesn’t really surprise me because of what he did for the US over the winter… his confidence grew and he’s pitching well now. Hopefully he can maintain this into the season as a long man.
Is Darrel Rasner in camp ?
Melancon looked sharp today, they didn’t show the speed on TV.
theres not a doubt in my mind that if I didnt tear my MCL last seaon, Id be able to pitch long relief for the Yankees this year if guys liek Karstens, Igawa and Rasner are their best options.
“I actually have the audacity to want to see guys wearing pinstripes do well.”
How dare you reject that nonsensical tough-love approach to fandom… xP
But seriously, sometimes I want to say “With fans like these, who needs away games?”
“Mike Mussina was pounded for five runs—four earned—in two-plus innings Monday against the Astros.”
“Several of the hits came with two strikes, and Mussina didn’t have a strikeout on the day. That just illustrates his main problem at this stage of his career. He can get ahead in the count because of his command, but he can’t put hitters away.”
Mussina has always had this problem while with the Yanks… every year, he just cant put guys away. Its so damn frustrating. I expect nothing different this year.
if Karstens could get big power hitters out consistently, he wouldn’t be a long reliever out of the pen, he’d be a bona fide starter. But that’s just my opinion.
Things real and knowledgeable “fans” of the Yankees know to be true:
Moose is horrible. He can’t even pitch a spring training game. Worse signing ever.
Jeter is going to ground into 73 DP’s this year. He’s also not a real captain.
Melky will have a .640 OPS.
Karstens can’t pitch to t-ballers.
Giambi will get injured tying his shoelace.
There’s no place for Chris Woodward in spring training.
Brian Cashman is as bad at his job as Isiah Thomas.
Joba will pitch 220IP’s this year and have an ERA of .37.
Yankees should have traded Hughes/Kennedy/Jackson/Tabata and Igawa for Johan.
HGH Pettitte.
There are more I’m sure.
I think ‘sharp’ is more important than ‘speed’ at this point, Moe. And other things may be more important than ‘sharp’ at this point too. Sharp is good to hear of course. But I’d like to see them take a few weeks to get loose before they crank it all the way up.
Hey guys, am just back from full day of class and group projects. Who wants to be a hero and tell me what I need to know about today’s game?
I mean, were Karstens, Melancon and that other dude that impressive?
I’m not worried about Mussina. Not now.
“Mussina has always had this problem while with the Yanks… every year, he just cant put guys away. Its so damn frustrating. I expect nothing different this year.”
I continue to be amazed at how Mussina somehow managed to win over 100 games for the Yankees when he doesn’t even have an out pitch.
the guy throws strikes, Ill give him that…and thats the most imperative thing for a pitcher to do…but unfortunately for Kartens, his stuff is just not good enough to get out major league hitters that have some pop. He’s a AAAA starter at best. The Andy Phillips of the mound.
Mel
“Re-liver” is what I should have considered after a very rough Saturday night. Ugh.
How could you not be worried about Mussina back in December? Forget Spring. He’s shown nothing in the past few years that allow him a pass. Nothing Peter.
Guy should be in the bullpen.
“the guy throws strikes, Ill give him that…and thats the most imperative thing for a pitcher to do…but unfortunately for Kartens, his stuff is just not good enough to get out major league hitters that have some pop. He’s a AAAA starter at best. The Andy Phillips of the mound.”
I have no idea who Karstens pitched to today, but I imagine it was to a team of Enrique Wilsons, no?
We only have 3 open spots for the bullpen… and you’d want to waste one on Karstens? Ugh. UGH. Forget it, I say. In any case, if you need a long man, Ross Ohlendorf, who was converted to a reliever from a starter near the end of last season will do just fine instead of Karstens. If we need a starter, call someone up, don’t use Karstens. I still remember that 16-0 (I think it was) game from 2007 when Karstens started and got demolished by the Baltimore Orioles.
most likely
To be a good reliever don’t you have to be good in your first inning? Karstens allows a .368 avg in his first inning.
SJ44,
I’ve also been a believer in having a good mix of pitching styles in the pen and rotation. I don’t know if there are supporting statistics, but for the same reason the Sox liked to pitch Wakefield in between two hard throwing starters, I think a guy like Karstens could provide a nice change of pace out of the bullpen or for a spot start. Especially in a bullpen that should consist of at least a few hard throwing fastballers.
The Sox won the WS and relied heavily on guys like Tavarez and Kyle Snyder. Are those guys all-stars? No – but they played important roles and helped the team.
If nothing else, I think Karstens could be an innings eater and insurance for a team that might need that this season as much as ever (hopefully not due to injury or poor performance but rather due to innings restrictions).
Bill,
If Moose doesn’t have an “out” pitch, the prevailing opinion here, putting him in the bullpen isn’t the way to go.
They are going to have to do what most teams do at this time of year. See how he progresses this spring.
Karstans is going for a middle relief role. He pitches the way he has, and can stay healthy, he is the perfect guy for the role.
Not everybody on the team is going to be an all star. His stuff is what you are looking for in that role. Two to three good innings per week. Being able to throw strikes when you are not on a regular schedule. Spot him for a sometimes start.
That’s not an easy role and its tough to find guys to fill it. Karstans is the perfect guy for it if he can stay healthy.
j train, Karstens threw 42 terrific innings in 2006 and you’re dismissing him over 14 injured innings last year. as for today, he got tejada 2x and lee once didnt he? thats a nice start to his ST
raymagnetic,
“Things real and knowledgeable “fans” of the Yankees know to be true:
Moose is horrible. He can’t even pitch a spring training game. Worse signing ever.”
I think any real and knowledgeable Yankee fan can come up with 25 signings that are far worse than Mussina. The same fans know that the Yankees get beat in Game 7 of the ALCS without Mussina’s 3 shutout innings out of the bullpen. Mussina has been disappointing and is obviously at the end of his career, but he’s far from the worst signing ever.
My vote goes to Kei Igawa with Kevin Brown a very close second. Carl Pavano gets a secomd place vote too.
Let moose be the mop up man is what I meant.
I hope Karstens can be effective.
I think with this staff, you’re going to need an effective long man.
Now, I’m not saying that the staff stinks, I’m just saying that with pitch counts (especially for the young guys) the way they are, we’re going to need someone who can be ready in the 4th-5th and give us some length.
Love seeing the young guys close this out.
I really want to see SJ proven right about Melancon later this season.
I like the buzz and attitude about the team. How Giambi doesn’t want to sit on the bench. How Shelley is making his case. How Ensberg is showing flashes of his old self.
As for Moose, I’m gonna try to remain optimistic. We need him to be good.
If there’s any doubt about him, the Yankees will need to find a veteran innings eater starter with all the pitch/innings limits on the kids in the system.
I hope it doesn’t come to that.
I know people say, “well Maddux gets guys out with 82mph stuff”, but Maddux is a much different pitcher than Moose.
Moose needs a fastball in his repetoire.
Without one…well, we all saw what happened to him at the end of the last year.
That said, I would love to see him go out on a high note and have a good healthy productive season.
Don’t judge his spring results from today.
But if you start reading about the Yankees talking to Kyle Lohse, be worried.
J Train,
Karstens is 25 and has appeared in 15 career MLB games. I know people are in love with the radar gun but let’s give Karstens a chance. I don’t think you are the authority on his stuff. I’m certainly not. I am guessing that if he makes the team it will be because those who have a bit more experience than either of us disagree with your assessment.
And guess what? The Sox won the WS with Kyle Snyder in that role. It’s kind of tough to field a bullpen where every pitcher has electric stuff.
I meant to say Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. sorry
“But, what do I know, I’m a Yankee fan. I actually have the audacity to want to see guys wearing pinstripes do well.”
Geez, you have no shame. Who do you think you are?!
“he got tejada 2x and lee once didnt he? thats a nice start to his ST”
I don’t believe this. There is no way he can get out legitimate power hitters.
“Ohlendorf, who was converted to a reliever from a starter near the end of last season will do just fine instead of Karstens.”
Will he? Ohlendorf, the man with one and a half pitches? Why do you think they turned him into a short reliever? Because he could actually EXCEL at that role. Karstens doesn’t have to be amazing. He just has to be DECENT. And he’s ALREADY SHOWN THAT HE CAN DO THAT.
Ohlendorf has enough gas that he could actually be an elite setup guy with a power sinker and a split, if it comes around. Why turn him into a mopup guy when we already have someone who can probably do that just fine?
Drive 4-5 my post was definitely a joke.
Ive struck out current major leaguers too my friend, doesnt mean I should be in the big leagues pitching.
Even with his excellent outings in the offseason, I had totally forgotten about Karstens going in to ST – makes me feel even better than I already did about our options out of the pen this year. It’s kind of like finding a ton of pocket change in the sofa cushions that you weren’t aware of.
Rebecca: i just got back myself, but was here for the game. moose had a rough outing; getting ahead of most of the hitters but unable to finish them off. he gave up a 3 run homer to lee. his command was pretty good though.
there were several people here demanding his immediate beheading. some were kinder and just suggested a ride out of town on a rail. there were others like myself and more eloquently, SJ who cautioned a more reasoned approach to a guys first outing in ST.
kartens did quite well , 3 scoreless innings. he only gave up a double to hunter pense. nevertheless he was trashed unmercifully by a couple of “fans”
shelley and melky had great days, the rest of the pitchers were goo. edward was ok.
melancon closed effectively
Its so funny to me. A guy pitches poorly, he is branded forever. To some, he will NEVER be a good pitcher because he had a bad game.
I often wonder how long some of you have watched baseball.
Funny, I also remember Ross Ohlendorf getting lit up by the Red Sox in one of his outings. Yet, some seem ready to give him a job.
News flash. There isn’t a pitcher who has ever pitched who hasn’t pitched poorly in stretches. Even Hall of Famers.
I remember Karstans pitching with a broken leg. He also came back too soon from his hamstring injury to help the team out when they were blown up by injuries.
In other words, he took one for the team. You earn a lot of respect from your teammates with actions like that.
He has also had periods when he has pitched quite well.
Dave is right. Diversity of style is also important when putting together a pitching staff.
I don’t know why its so hard for people to understand the role we are talking about here. A long man. Like Kyle Snyder is to the Red Sox.
This isn’t a glamour position. It also isn’t easy to find guys to fill it because of the infrequent use.
Karstans has shown the ability to pitch in this role. Its why he is probably the favorite to get it.
If the guy gets outs, the stat hounds say he is lucky. If he doesn’t get outs, folks want him DFA’ed.
Cracks me up how miserable some Yankee fans can be.
The best ST in YEARS and some folks are still miserable. Amazing.
Rebecca – I did not catch the whole game but I know that Karstens did a good job and pitched 3 scoreless innings.
McCutchen was efficient and got the job done after giving up a lead off single, he got 2 groundouts and a K to end the inning. I also think that Melancon worked around an error in the bottom of the ninth to keep the lead.
“I’m just saying that with pitch counts (especially for the young guys)”
The young guys aren’t on any kind of special pitch count. Pretty much EVERY starter is on a roughly 100 pitch limit these days, unless the team is irresponsible or his name is Tim Wakefield. I still figure Phil will average 6-7 innings a start with his 100 pitches, and same with Joba when he moves to the rotation. Ian, maybe a little less because I feel finesse guys use a few more pitches to get through innings…but that’s fine from a 4/5 type guy.
I think the long-reliever role is definitely something the Yankees need filled, but that’s not really news…EVERY team needs that guy.
If the Girardi needs a long reliever why not try Daniel McCutchen in that role? Although Karstens has a little more MLB experience it is not that much and McCutchen has a better arm. I like Karstens because he has a bulldog mentality but I do not want to overlook somebody like McCutchen. If McCutchen has a great spring why not give him a shot?
j train
i coulda been a contenda….
“If the Girardi needs a long reliever why not try Daniel McCutchen in that role?”
because he’s pitched a single partial season in AA at this point? And was old for the level?
bye to the stadium:
best line of the day…..
whozat,
I think if Kennedy can limit his walks (and considering his control it’s likely he can), he can get the 6-7 IP despite being a “finesse” guy. It’s nice to be able to call a guy who can throw 92mph a finesse guy simply because you’re comparing him to arms liks Joba and Hughes. Unless “finesse” is more related to his command and mix of pitchers more so than his radar readings.
This isn’t even a matter of stats. It’s a matter of Karstens not having the stuff to be an effective pitcher. Can he pitch for 3-4 innings every once in a while in a blowout? Yes. But we barely have any spots left for relief pitchers as it is, and you’re going to use it on Karstens? Long relievers, like lefties, are convenient to have but do we really have room for one?
I wll never speak Karstens name again until he makes the team and is shelled more often than not when called upon. If the opposite of what I think is going to happen happens, I will be more than happy to eat crow. Look, Im rooting for the guy to do well and help the team as a Yankee fan, but as a guy who played professional ball, I just dont see it.
I was surprised to hear during yesterday’s YES telecast that LaTroy Hawkins had a similar ground ball ratio to Chein Ming Wang.
IF, and that’s a big IF, Farnsworth rewards Girardi’s faith in him, Hawkins can be a nice counterpoint in the 7th & 8th inning.
Fran: Thanks much.
Jeff Karstens is growing on me.
Cheesyhoboe – - –
Show me a team that has no long reliever / spot starter to call upon when needed and I’ll show you a team with slight chances of winning a World Championship.
Joe Girardi recognizes that situation.
“Cracks me up how miserable some Yankee fans can be.
The best ST in YEARS and some folks are still miserable. Amazing.”
Well, that’s just it. Some people come here to blindly criticize, and have other agendas.
“I think if Kennedy can limit his walks (and considering his control it’s likely he can), he can get the 6-7 IP despite being a “finesse” guy. It’s nice to be able to call a guy who can throw 92mph a finesse guy simply because you’re comparing him to arms liks Joba and Hughes. Unless “finesse” is more related to his command and mix of pitchers more so than his radar readings.”
Finesse is indeed about his command and mix of pitches, and not an indictment of his velocity.
I guess my point about Ian being less able to go deep into games is related both to the small sample I saw last season, and to my assumption that he’s neither a power pitcher nor a pitch-to-contact kind of guy.
You people are insane. It is the 3rd game of Spring training for Gods sake!!
The genius who called the Mussina signing a mistake is on crack. It has been established that Mussina signing in 2001 has been the only successful free agent pitcher signing for more than 5 years. I think he is #6 or 7 for wins by a pitcher.
The bullpen has to go through some pain before we figure out everyone’s role. I remember in the first 2 months last year Francona would use Papelbon in the 7th or 8th inning. Thats right Ohkajima was not immediately put in the eighth inning role that he eventually grew into.
We have to be patient
Cheesyhoboe/J Train,
what would you consider to be a success for Karstens? Does he need a sub-3 ERA? Does he need to fill innings as needed in blowouts? Or is 60IP with a 4 ERA enough to be considered as effective?
Honestly, I don’t think the debate is over Karstens being lights out. There is a ROLE on the team that does need to be filled and Karstens is looking like the most logical guy to get the first shot at that role. I also think you are underestimating his stuff or basing your opinions on very limited ‘data’. If he fails miserably, the Yanks will have other options to plug in. But right now I don’t think panic or criticism of the guy is warranted.
I am also a Karstens skeptic. I agree with those who say that he does not have the stuff to become an effective big league pitcher over the medium or long-term. He doesn’t throw hard; doesn’t have a good out pitch; doesn’t have a good sinker; and doesn’t have exceptional control. Guys like that usually don’t stick in the bigs for very long.
I would be delighted if he became the next Ramiro Mendoza, but I think it is unlikely. I hope he proves me wrong.
Rebecca;
didn’t you like my game summery above?
point taken whozat, I was just saying it’s nice that our ‘finesse’ guy out of the young guns still can throw pretty fast. Hopefully IPK can be at a minimum a 6IP/game guy since he should be the one allowed to pitch the most innings of the trinity. I like his chances…
MikeEff: Ach, sorry, got distracted by SJ… (oops)
Nettles,
would a 3.8 – 4.2 ERA while eating up 60IP be considered effective for Karstens?
Seriously, some of y’all do go way the heck overboard with tearing a new one in a player when he has a bad day. Sure, some guys aren’t going to be good enough to make it this year, some guys ever, some guys anymore. Some guys with potential are going to be sent down to get more playing time in. Some other guys will fill the void until they do. It’s spring freakin’ training, ya know? Girardi’s looking at guys to see what they’ve got and how they’re progressing. Relax & let it all shake out.
I thought Moose was done last August too, but I’m willing to give him some time and see how he does this season. Good or bad won’t erase how he did in the past, so you’ll never hear me compare him to Pavano or Brown. He doesn’t need to be the ace, if he fills a different role well enough.
Same goes for Karstens. He may well have a talent ceiling of “AAAA starter” but if he’s adequate out of the pen (even if for only half the season) that’s an important piece of the puzzle.
There is still plenty of time for Darrell Rasner to compete with Jeff Karsens for a long relief – spot starter role but in either case, Joe Girardi has made it plain that he wants that role to take shape in spring training as one of his priorities. Unlike Joe Torre, he is not interested in using a series of short relievers on a regualr basis and see bullpen burnout as a consequence.
Boston Dave:
Absolutely. If he can put those numbers up, he stays in the big leagues all season and becomes an important part of the bullpen.
The J Train March 3rd, 2008 at 6:00 pm
“Im rooting for the guy to do well and help the team as a Yankee fan, but as a guy who played professional ball, I just dont see it.”
Just curious why you think your experience in pro ball makes you qualified to see what Giardi, Eiland, et al don’t. Pretty sure they have pro experience too. If Karstens is worse than the other options, he won’t make the team. I doubt they’ll keep him around just to piss off the anti-Karstens crowd.
Nettles,
I think he is capable of that. What would you put Karstens’ over/under at for ERA? 4.15?
If Karstens was 29 years old I could see all the bashing. But at his age and the fact that he was pitched better than most under NY pressure – leads me to say lets see what he does this year.
If his control is good- to very good then he will just be fine as a long reliever. To do this he needs to have confidence in himself. Last year he didn’t because of injuries and the arse whooping he took.
He is more confident right now and I really see him doing just fine. He is only 25 give him a chance he is no Sean Henn.
I think he has learned a lot from last year and the momentum
he has built up is a good early sign.
I’m actually of the thought that Rasner might be the better choice in the short run for the long relief role. He has done it more, but more importantly, if Joba starts the season in the pen, which I see as likely if everyone comes out of spring training healthy, there’s going to need to be a 6th starter stretched out and ready to fill in in case of injury. And if injury or ineffectiveness means Joba’s starting, the same need is there.
If last season teaches us anything, it that s*** happpens. I think Karstens is the #1 spot starter. Rasner might be #2. And Joba gets stretched out in AAA quick to fill in as well. After watching the majors debuts of Wright, Clippard, and DeSalvo last season in an emergency, I’m not sure pitchers who haven’t thrown above AA are the guys I want to count on in an early pinch. Frankly, their numbers were somewhat comparable to the current kids. Give these guys time to develop.
Everyone needs to stop being so critical. You should be rooting for Karstens to do well as Yankee fans. It’s only March 3rd and people are already freaking out. Lets see what happens once March 31st comes around. I’m sure the best one will head North and if Karstens does not perform, there are plenty of other options. Lets just wait and see.
Joe,
Don’t you know by now that that is the “Yankee fan way”, or alot of them at least, to panic right away and want a guy traded or released as soon as a guy has a bad outing, especially on March 3? Thought you’d know by now that those types of Yankee fans are born GMs, or so they think.
Some of these comments make me wonder if some of these people find any joy at all in rooting for a team or in watching baseball.
As for Karstens, he’s a control guy and when he’s got it he keeps the ball on the ground. He has to have his changeup and curve working to keep batters off balance, then his fastball can work for him, even though he doesn’t have great speed.
He does have some deception, though, esp when other stuff is working; if not, he’s very vulnerable. But pitching is all relative to the pitch you threw before this one. We’ve seen what happens when his control is off – he gets into trouble. But as somebody on here pointed out, we’re not relying on him to be a top five starter, and if he doesn’t get it done, he doesn’t pitch.
We have way more options than we’ve had in years when it comes to pitching, so it’s not like we’re just stuck if someone doesn’t get it done.
And sorry, I just have to ask RAYMAGNETIC: are you as much of a cancer in your everyday life as you are on this forum? Because I suspect your rather blind negativity comes from somewhere else, not from rooting for the Yankees, who are, incidentally, the most successful sports franchise ever.
You sound like a Red Sox fan, fearfully and tragically predicting doom and gloom, even in a positive era. Seriously, who could NOT be stoked about this Yankee year coming up? With all this youth and arm depth? New, bright manager? Giambi giving up the liquid breakfasts and hitting the ball the other way? Melancon and McCutchen looking set for a late-summer entrance? Even if we win the WS, people like you will find a way to be unhappy, that’s what I think. NEWSFLASH: A little hope and optimism doesn’t ALWAYS crush you; try it.