Jays-Yankees: The Live Blog
-
- March
- 11
Good afternoon. It’s party cloudy and 71 degrees in Tampa as the Yankees get ready to play the Toronto Blue Jays.
Chien-Ming Wang takes the mound in what is a fairly important outing for him. CMW was roughed up last Thursday against the Reds when he allowed six runs on six hits and was only able to get two outs.
He has since watched more videotape than Roger Ebert and the other day had a 75-pitch bullpen session. The Yankees are expecting better today from him.
Meanwhile, the Blue Jays have signed Armando Benitez to a minor-league deal and invited him to spring training. How to seal your doom, J.P. Ricciardi.
Today’s game is on YES. David Cone, John Flaherty and Michael Kay. You’ll love Cone on the air. We’ll be updating the game here to help you waste time at work.
FIRST INNING
Wang is already better than he was the last time. 16 pitches/8 strikes. The only hit was a single by Vernon Wells when Wang shattered his bat with a sinker. CMW seems to be in his groove again.
Remember when Gustavo Chacin was supposed to be good? Here’s how the bottom of the first started for him:
Melky: bunt single
Jeter: walk
Abreu: two-run double to right
A-Rod: Long homer to right
4-0 Yankees.
SECOND INNING
Johnny Damon is out with a sore right foot, the product of a foul ball on Monday night. X-rays and an MRI taken at St. Joseph’s Hospital were negative. He is day-to-day.
Wang had a 21-pitch second inning that included a double play. The Yankees had a shot to score in the bottom of the inning but Jose Molina was thrown out at the plate trying to score from second on Bobby Abreu’s single. Memo to Bobby Meacham: Molina is slow and A-Rod was on deck.
Molina slid into the plate, by the way. Those Yankees aren’t dirty thugs.
THIRD INNING
Wang walked David Eckstein with two outs but had an otherwise uneventful third inning. He’s at 51 pitches and is probably done for the day. His line: 3 2 0 0 2 0.
FOURTH INNING
Shows what I know as Wang is back for the fourth inning.
Wang got a grounder back to the mound from Wells and then struck out Rolen swinging. Then they came and got him.
Here’s the line: 3.2 2 0 0 2 1 58 pitches/34 strikes. Good stuff from CMW. All is well.
SIXTH INNING
The Yankees are up 5-0 and now have Darrell Rasner on the mound. Kyle Farnsworth allowed a double in the fifth but worked out of trouble.
The Yankees have now had five straight good starts in a row by their starters. Their combined line: 15.1 9 3 3 6 10. Clearly Dave Eiland is a genius.
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on Tuesday, March 11th, 2008 at 12:11 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
That was a nice intro of the Girardi’s staff.
Thomson looks like a really sharp guy.
Anyone know the background on Eiland? How long he’s been with the Yankees and his ascension through the organization?
Over/Under for Wang this outing:
A – 3.2 IP
B – 2.5 ER
C – 1.5 K
D – 2.5 BB
Game time… lets hope Wang gives a solid performance.. would hate to see what people would write here otherwise.
“Armando Benitez to a minor-league deal and invited him to spring training. How to seal your doom, J.P. Ricciardi.”
Compare the jays need to sign Benitez to what the yankees have done with their pen by creating options through young pitching and numbers.
The jays have a lot of depth – but most of their good young pitchers were brought up to the big club last year.
And it looks like it wasn’t enough.
The yankee’s approach of bringing in a wide variety of guys and seeing what falls out means that they don’t have to try desperation measures.
Like armando benitez.
coney could be great to balance the stupitty of michal kay.
Signed Benitez? Dang, that’s desperate.
Thanks PETE!!!
Benitez ? oh boy does that send cold sweats on NYers
P.S. because I read in the last thread , IDK why but I think Gardner makes the team.
A – under
B – under
C – over
D – under
Matt Stairs…bad vibes…
so Wang is double tapping now
Why am I confusing Eckstein with Glaus?
I think Girardi really likes Gardner. He’s a Girardi type of player. but the Yankees likely want him to get playing time so I don’t see him making the team.
frits – I agree with you except on IP. I think they’ll stretch him out a bit in this game, barring another disaster.
Cone on the pregame did more analysis in one minute than Tim McCarver or Joe Morgan do in an entire game. When he was talking about Wang – his stride being too long causing his arm angle to be wrong causing the pitches to be up – that was GREAT.
I think the Benitez deal is a really good signing. For us.
Scott: Yeah, agreed! He needs to not speak quite so fast, but that’s just experience.
Darn you Vernon for ruining the perfect game.
Wangs pitches are up so far. 2 out, 1 one via a single.
“In today’s sports, a bizarre play happened midway through the Jays-Yanks spring training game when Armando Benitez threw a pitch that appeared to slip out of his hand and hit the lower back of Tino Martinez, who was sitting at the end of the Yanks bench. After making his errant pitch, Benitez noticed Darryl Strawberry glaring at him from the crowd and he ran for cover in the Jay’s dugout. When asked his opinion later, the Tampa Rays manager said ‘Im a little surprised anyone could be upset about that play because that’s just the way you’re supposed to play the game. Tino was out there. He got in the way or Benitez’ pitch. Benitez is out there trying to make the team and that’s just baseball.’”
FYI – Eiland pitched for the Yanks in the late 80’s, early 90’s.
His pitches are really up.
Molina has a canon.
Wells caught stealing…inning over
Molina throws out Wells trying to steal 2nd. Yanks up.
No TV, it’s not on 880, and MLB.tv blacks out everything if you live in NYC. drat. i seriously need to figure out a way around this, I can’t wait til 3/31.
Jake: It’s on YES
Wang needs to get those pitches down.
Nice throw by Molina. What a great asset he is to the team backing up Jorge.
Good luck to Wang!
Ranting guy
As a rule of thumb, every team should keep a Molina on their catching staff.
Why are they televising bunting drills? lol.
rebecca: i know, but i dont have a tv (sorry, that wasn’t very clear from my comment above). dont really have room for it, and the only thing I’d use it for is YES so I can’t justify the $$$ it would cost for the tv/cable.
When you look at the Blue Jays signing of Benitez, don’t laugh.
That was the Yankees two years ago. Making desperate moves because they had no options.
Its why Brian Cashman re-invested in the farm system and in player development. Its why the Yankee system is now loaded with quality arms.
Its also why we have to have patience with the younger arms. Its going to take time for these guys to gain traction.
Hopefully, fans are patient this season when the younger guys have tough outings. Its going to happen.
If folks are patient, it will be rewarded because these kids, if they stay healthy, are all going to be above average ML pitchers.
Yay Bobby! Yay A-Rod!
maybe that fan will learn not to taunt him next time
Yankees lead 4-0
Is there a gameday link?
Alex crushed that one. I think his shoulder is fine.
how’d they score??
Jake: Okay, I misread you.
It amuses me that the designated hitter is the first one to make an out…
Fernando: Agreed!
Lori – http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/y2007/gd.html?2008_03_11_tormlb_nyamlb_1&brand=mlb
Cash is on Mike and the Mad Dog, watched Alex hit the homerun, goes oh yeah thats gone.
Cashman on WFAN with the 2 idiots
Wang just try to use his slider and changeup in the first inning, especially Yankees meet Blue jay for opening series. Wang won’t pitch the way he will pitch during regular season.
Thanks Mike!
gameday is actually showing balls and strikes today
A-Rod crushed that ball..
Good to see him, Jeter and Pettitte laughing in the dugout. This is as laid back a clubhouse as will probably have been put together for some time.
Excellent point, Jessica. I hadn’t thought of that.
SaucY – I just noticed that too. Is it accurate? Did Wang walk Rolen on 5 pitches?
saucY – It’s moving pretty well. It’s showing the at bats as they happen as well.
I wish Michael Kay has a “life” clause so we don’t have to listen to him all the time. Cone is good, though.
Lori: Yup.
Gameday is accurate today – for a change
(at least for now)
I wish Fleas was listening to the FAN right now Cash just confirmed it had to be Kennedy, WANG and Cabrerra at the end
An A-bomb from ARod!!: which is much better than An F-bomb from C-Rod!
As I was typing “Wang is still up in the zone” they started saying it. Everything is belt high…scary
Nice DP. Nice bat.
gidp – - – the Wang we know and love has arrived!
Thomas’s bat breaks, right the same way Wells’s did. Wang must have some heavy spin on those pitches to get them to break like that.
I used to throw belt high. Its one of the reasons I never succeeded in baseball.
Watching Wang’s ERA go down with every out is fun.
but looks like he got that DP ball working.
Cashman on the M&MD what the Twins wanted was
Hughes and Melky then it was Wang, Kennedy, Melky and another prospect, that’s what he turned down.
Chris Russo is really pissing me off btw
mIKE AND THE mAD DOG DON’T GET IT, THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY pAPLEBON IS THE CLOSER. tHEY ARE CLUELESS.
i knew it wouldn’t be long until they went into their default “joba should be in the pen” nonsense…
Thanks for the update on Johnny D.
“Johnny Damon is out with a sore right foot”
Well, looks like it will be a slow start to the season once again for Damon and the team.
How were CMW’s pitches that last at bat – location is tough to get on Gameday. Looks like the balls were just below the knees – so at least it looks like they were down.
Cashman laid it out as to why they turned down the Santana deal.
Now, Russo has decided that because Joba had a bad game against Manhattan in the NCAA’s, he can’t be a top end starter.
Too bad the moron doesn’t go back and checkout Joba’s numbers from the NCAA the previous year. He was only the Sub-Regional MVP.
Good God, please find somebody at WFAN who has a clue about baseball.
I love Melky leading off!!! I can’t lie.
Hi, dumb Gameday question – Mike R. provided that link, but how are you getting to Gameday? Normally, there is a link from mlb.com’s home page. But I only see the MLB.tv link and a link to the live Box score.
Thanks for the help!
Do you think our 3-4 hitters are ready to start the season? Abreu and Alex look like they want to compete for April Player of the Month honors. Awesome.
They might have to share the headline with Phil/Joba/Ian. Folks are focused!
Fearless prediction: Red Sox start whittling away at the Yanks’ large lead in July/August. Then new starter Joba Chamberlain hits his stride. Yanks pull away and enter October with the best pitching in baseball
A slow start of the season for Damon and the team because he took a foul ball off his foot? Too funny.
He will be back in the lineup in the next couple of days.
Its not a big deal.
Wang, Kennedy, Melky and another prospect. Was Minny really serious with that one or just seeing if Cashman would be absurd enough and make that deal?
So did they end up getting a beer vendor and a UV pretzel warming lamp in that deal with the Mets too?
jennifer, that’s why I refer to them as the 2 idiots.
So Chacin is bad based on this outing (”Remember when he used to be good”), but some posters here get called out for criticizing Moose when he had a similar crappy outing? Ah, I see. Guy on another team, bad ST start = bad player. Guy on the Yankees, bad ST start = excuses like “He’s just out there working out his changeup”.
Hmmm.
“Well, looks like it will be a slow start to the season once again for Damon and the team.”
Damon fouled a ball off his right foot yesterday. Doesn’t appear to be anything serious, he didn’t even get it
x-rayed yesterday.
If Joba goes on to win 15 games next year they will preted they never advocated his move to the bullpen and move on to their next ignorant rant.
“Hughes and Melky then it was Wang, Kennedy, Melky and another prospect, that’s what he turned down.”
I wonder if Fleas will quiet down with the Santana nonsense now…
“Chris Russo is really pissing me off btw
”
Just never, ever listen to them. They really are ignorant with respect to baseball in general, especially about the modern game. They’re basically casual fans with a radio show.
Lori – CMW’s pitches had movement but were still up.
mad dog is an idiot. they are pressuring Cashman to give them a good sound clip so that they can bash his decisions after he leaves the booth. If Mad dog brings up Lincecum one more time I am going to puke – he was 7-5 with a 4.oo ERA (100+ innings) in the national league west. Joba was 2-0 w/ a 0.38 ERA (24 innings) as a reliever in the AL East, in a pennant race. Lets see more this years before he opens his mouth.
I always love when MIke says “there is a thought processout there etc etc”
It is actually his own stupid thought process not someone elseshe triesto make it like others are on the train with him
“So did they end up getting a beer vendor and a UV pretzel warming lamp in that deal with the Mets too?”
Maybe they threw in a couple of those Shea Stadium rats to give the Twins’ new stadium “character”
Dan,
You take an archived gameday and change the date & teams.
The yankees hitting lineup can make a lot of good pitchers look bad, Spring or not.
Chacin’s Gameday photo is *scary*.
Thanks Scott.
Jeter taking walks like its going out of style.
“So Chacin is bad based on this outing”
No, Pete’s using a little hyperbole. Also…if you look at Chacin’s pitching, he’s just all over the place…and this isn’t his first outing. So that’s different too.
I go here to pick up gameday: http://www.mlb.com/mlb/gameday not sure why it’s not on main page, but you’ll find it there.
Are they this combative with the Mets GM or with Willie?
whozat your take on Christian Garcia and Alan Horne
oh BS he got the hand in !
Who’s for Molina and Posada in a foot race?
he was so safe
Oh, and Molina was so safe.
It is a shame that they are able to get all the “stars” to appear on thier show. Espically when they don’t know anything if it wasn’t written in the paper.
Thanks, Rishi.
That’s certainly easier!
rebecca, only if they agree to wear penguin costumes!
Was he safe? Seems unlikely they’d send Molina home unless it was a sure thing. But then again, Bowa’s not there anymore…
Molina beat that out. His hand was in. And notice he did not barrel over the catcher.
Now if that had been against tampa…
Had he barreled into the catcher he would’ve scored, but it’s only ST. Ahem, Joe Maddon.
Good interview with Cashman on The FAN at the moment. If only to hear Francesa and Russo play the Fool on Joba’s role, it’s worth listening to.
I still can’t believe the puppy came with that weak arguement about Joba vs Manhatten
Mike and the Mad Dog are so dumb. It’s sad
sounds to me like flash agrees with zim (and me ) about cervelli blocking the plate causing the crash.
Can the rapid dog shut up! He asking a question and won’t shut his mouth!!
I wish the folks who come on here complaining about Cashman and how he has “no plan” would listen to this interview.
He has laid out, very clearly, the Yankees plan for now and the future and why they didn’t do the Santana deal.
With more specifics, than he has EVER discussed publicly.
I’m sure this interview will be up on the FAN website later today.
Its really worth listening to it and fans will have a much clearer picture of the Yankees decisionmaking in some key areas.
How did he get “lit” up by Manhattan when he only gave up I believe 2 runs?
Mind you – Michael Kay was nowhere near as reasonable on his radio show yesterday…he was much more on the side of Johnson…
Brandon – I know you didn’t ask me, but I’ll give you my 2 cents.
Horne and Garcia are at the same level as prospects in my opinion because Horne is very close to being a finished product. Horne is a big guy with big stuff, but his control isn’t very good.(I would say average at best). Don’t pay too much attention to Horne’s age. Developmentally speaking he is two years younger due to a couple of missed seasons with elbow issues that were corrected.(TJ Surgery)
Garcia has a much higher ceiling. Garcia could be a #2 starter if everything pans out. He has one of the best Fastballs and one of the best curveballs in the system, but the guy is a walking injury. He has yet to pitch an entire season. If he could stay healthy all year and hasn’t lost any of his stuff or polish he should move quickly. I would say you could see him in the Bronx as soon as next year if his health issues are behind him.
He just looked at the Loss, didn’t look at numbers.
Brandon,
Joba vs Manhattan?
“whozat your take on Christian Garcia and Alan Horne”
I won’t pretend to know much about Garcia. I know that he had what was considered the best curve in the yanks’ system — and they teach the curve to a lot of guys, so I think that’s saying something. He had surgery, I think? TJ? I dunno. He’s still only 22 and had really good peripherals in A ball at 20 in 2006…so, it’ll be interesting to watch him, but I really don’t think it makes sense to look at him for an impact this year.
Horne…what I read about Horne is that he has a long arm action which will likely lead to him battling control problems for his whole career. So, I figure his walk rates will regress to his averages this year, which will reduce his performance as a starter. I figure he could be a power bullpen arm in MLB that walks some guys and strikes out some guys. I feel like we have several of those…Personally, if another team values him as a starter, I’d package him in a deal. I think he’s a classic trade-high candidate, though I’d love for him to continue to keep his walks down and push into the pen this season late, Joba-style.
Nice play by Shelley!
Seems like the Twins wanted a heck of a lot more from the Yanks than they wanted from the BoSox or the Mets. If what Cash is saying is true it doesn’t make much sense.
It also is pretty clear that the plan to make Joba a starter in the second half is going to make life pretty interesting for the other starters – - – what is going to give?
Is he expecting to bump Moose or Kennedy out? Is Humberto or Melancon going to slide into the pen? Should be fun to watch.
OMG MadDog is an idiot.
I love Mad Dog asking Cashman “How many innings did Hershiser pitch in his magical year of 88?” Unfortunately, Cash didn’t respond, how long did it take for Orel to rehab from major shoulder surgery a few years later? I truly believe Russo is a troll on this board.
Nice play by shelly
I don’t think Garcia and Horne are at the same level. Mainly, because Garcia has been hurt so much.
Right now, Horne is, far and away, the better prospect.
This is an important year for Garcia. He can be exposed to the Rule 5 Draft after this season and its going to be a tough call as to whether nor not the Yankees will be able to protect him.
Garcia has great potential. However, you have to be able to take the ball.
I really hope this is the year he can do so, once he is cleared for full work.
Can someone tell the rapid puppy he doesn’t have a clue!!
thanks Mike R. Garcia is the guy that makes me curious because he’s been said not to have a ceiling as soon as he started to work hard and get it that’s when a spike caught the grass causing him to get injured during rehab, bad luck imo.
Who’s the black dude with the shaved head in the dugout? Is that LaTroy?
For those of us at work, could someone please summarize the cashman interview? i’ll listen to it tonight when i get home but i am very curious
Dog is such an idiot. Who cares what the Orioles did 30 years ago.
Rapid puppy?
Mad Dog is living in the past. It’s like his LeBron should go to college for the experience of college argument.
It’s amazing that two guys who profess to love baseball know so little beyond arcane historical trivia.
They know nothing about the NY teams’ Farm systems or their players nor any conventional wisdom reached in the last 20 years.
Don’t either of these stooges read the latest studies on inning limits and the risk of injuries to under-25 pitchers who exceed their inning totals by 30 from the previous year?
Verducci-Carroll’s study isn’t definitive but it sure is persuasive.
KD
Basically M&MD have no idea how young pitching works. Cashman is being extremely patient while Mad Dog talks about the 1970 Orioles using a four man rotation.
Russo wants Hughes, Joba and Kennedy to all throw 200 innings this year.
Garcia has a higher ceiling than any prospect in the Yankee system outside of Joba and Brackman. Which means nothing unless he acts with more maturity and can stay healthy.
Hey Idiot how about Prior and Kerry Wood? Jared Weaver… the list goes on
…think A-Rod has money?
SJ,
Would you be so kind as to pass along some of the specifics of Cashman’s interview for us less privileged individuals?
“Russo wants Hughes, Joba and Kennedy to all throw 200 innings this year.”
I think the “long arm action” stuff about Horne is a bit misleading.
He’s a guy who is definitely someone that can transition to the bullpen if needed this year.
He’s also a guy who may be able to bring back something of significance if he is put on the market.
I will be interested to see how he does in AAA this year. Especially with a little higher quality of umpiring than he had in AA last year. That will help the pitchers on ball/strike calls.
Now, Russo is blabbering about things that were in vogue 35 years ago. Just awful.
Al Leiter after throwing 157 pitches for the Yankees in the late 80s then getting
Yeah rapid puppy, the guy is nuts!
thanks Bronx Liaison, that helps. BTW, nice blog. I check it from time to time
Uh, Pete, you probably don’t want to call Wang a Wag
At least Dog is gracious afterward. I respect him for that.
hurt
“Maybe they threw in a couple of those Shea Stadium rats to give the Twins’ new stadium “characterâ€
LoL.
I haven’t given up on Christian Garcia. He’s only 22. The talent’s there. He just needs to get his head right.
“I think the “long arm action†stuff about Horne is a bit misleading.”
Sure. I only know what I read
If people with more informed opinions than I believe that last season’s walk rates were progress and not an outlier, that’s awesome.
SJ – The only reason I fell that Horne and Garcia are at the same level is because of Garcia’s ceiling.I tend to value potential a little bit more in my evaluations of prospects due to the Yankees current farm system depth. I agree with you 100% on your evaluation of Horne and I know that Garcia’s health is the biggest strike against him, but I don’t know if Horne has enough to crack the rotation next season, or the season after that. If Garcia could fulfill his potential (BIG if) I think he could join the rotation.
I am definitely in the minority with my opinion though.
Basically, here are the high points of the Cashman interview:
1. The Twins gave the Yankees two options for a Santana deal. Either Hughes, Cabrera and two other minor leaguers or, if Hughes was taken out of the deal, Wang AND Kennedy, along with Cabrera and another minor leaguer. Easy to see why the Yankees said “no”.
2. Talked about Joba. The plan now is for him to start the season in the bullpen, barring any injuries, and will transition to the rotation at some point during the season. They have a date in mind and they aren’t making the date public. Nor are they making innings limits public.
3. Girardi is involved in ALL discussions regarding personnel. No decision is being made on players without his input.
That’s really the pertinent stuff. The mindless Mike and the Mad Dog babble I don’t consider important so I won’t rehash it here.
I would assume rabid for the craziness
But if he’s spewing forth like a torrent, then rapid would work too
Rapid rabid puppy?
I *feel* not “I fell”. Edit button edit button edit button…
Shelley working the count. I love it.
Shelley gave Foxs a shout out in his AB
these procede commercials piss the F out of me.. why does it have to play every single commercial break
Horne’s overall control numbers weren’t very good last year. Not bad but not a strength.
But one of the things you saw was that his walk rate went up month by month and really went up substantially late in the season.
I think that may be a sign of him tiring over the course of the season. Down the stretch all of his numbers got worse.
He’s still coming back from that TJ surgery. Last year was his first season where he seemed to have recovered and gotten his mechanics back.
Stamina was an issue and I think that’s part of why his control deteriorated.
I hopeful that his control will improve this year, but we’ll see.
SJ44, that was a good wrap-up of an hour-long interview. Also, thanks for all your input here. I could only imagine if you were on with those 2 idiots, they’d look at you as if you’re talking a different language or about hockey(listeners to them would understand the hockey reference.)
Wang’s back out there at 51+ pitches
Brandon: So I didn’t imagine it
ok so that should put the santana trade to bed, nobody in thier right mind would have given either of those packages for santana AND paid him $130M.
“Wag walked David Eckstein”?
There’s a lot of dog talk here today.
To me, ceiling re: prospects means nothing. That’s Baseball America talk for their stories. You have to take the ball or, if you are a position player, you have to be in the lineup. If not you have no ceiling.
Baseball is an everyday game. Lots of guys have ceiling/potential, yet never realize it.
For the last 3 years, something has always derailed Garcia. I hope this is the year he actually shows something.
However, it terms of “ceiling” we don’t know what it is right now since he hasn’t pitched in a very long time.
A lot of Horne’s walks came late in the year. Not surprising since it was the first healthy season he had in two years and he was tired. His mechanics began to falter and that caused his higher walk totals.
Despite tiring late, he was still voted the Pitcher of the Year in the Eastern League.
SJ,
Thanks for the Cashman summary
Wang’s looking much better this inning…
…John Flarehty just read my mind.
Wang’s out now…
Wang with the K. Take that Rolen.
Wang in the 4th – everything is down, down, down. Got taken out after getting Wells on a soft comebacker and Rolen on a weak swing strikeout.
He looked MUCH better this inning. MUCH.
This is an impressive outing for Wang. Especially since the Blue Jays have hit him quite well in the past.
Against their everyday lineup, he is throwing the ball the way we know he can.
Its why I don’t worry about Wang. If he is healthy, you pencil in 200+ innings and 17-20 wins.
I like horne but i dont see how he fits into our plans ever unless he becomes a reliever
next year i imagine we’re looking at:
wang
hughes
chamberlain
kennedy
free agent: sabathia?
i really dont think theyll put horne in there
SJ – I definitely defer to your expertise in regards to prospects and baseball in general. I do believe that Horne is seriously underrated by BA and the sorts.
Sj so do you suspect (assuming everyone is healthy by date x) that they will move to a six man rotation. THat would help keep down the innings of Hughes and Kennedy?
Excellent job by Wang. I guess watching all of that film paid off.
Thanks, mel. Thanks, Rishi. (for the Gameday info)
was that a 2 seamer or cutter Edwar got Thomas to pop out on ?
Not to pat myself on the back, but I did quite the job setting the over/under for IP at 3.2.
good job Wang.
Im with you SJ Wang is a reliable pitcher which is more than you can say for a lot of guys in the majors. If Hughes and kennedy can combine for some form of 20 wins give or take I love the yanks chances.
Maybe we can get another 1 year deal out of Pettite.
So, let’s recap. Smith saved face on the broadcast of the Yankee game.
mlb.com writes an article full of Theo quotes that they didn’t want to give up prospects and, yes, they really were interested and weren’t trying to block the Yankees.
Cashman goes on a show with two guys, who by all accounts are idiots, and gives his version.
Hmmm. I may be a homer, but I’ll believe Cashman.
I still think that Andy’s return helped Cashman’s cause in the front office. I can understand Minny’s last ditch eleventh hour call to the Yankees, but did they really think that we had soured that much on Wang? He could’ve gotten much better prospects from the Yankees than the Mets.
Nice bounceback from CMW. Toronto’s always played him tough.
jennifer it would also keep down the innings of wang and pettitte
josh, pettitte will be back and the yanks wont go 6/$120M for sabatthia
rob we need more than 20 wins combined from hughes and kennedy
im hoping for 13 wins from hughes and at least 10 from kennedy
Im watching the game on MLB.tv and I notice that im getting commercials…? That didnt happen last season .. is it just a spring training thing?
Does anyone know if YES is doing an encore replay of this game? I’m stuck at work and no DVR!
I don’t think they will move to a 6 man rotation Jennifer.
Things happen during a season. Injuries, ineffectiveness, etc.
These days, you need 7-8 starting pitchers over the course of a season to win games.
Its nice to have pitching depth because, as we saw last year, you never know how a season plays out.
As far as Horne is concerned, the goal is to accumulate quality arms because you can’t predict the future.
What if Hughes went down with a season ending injury? Horne may be the next guy up.
What if they don’t sign Sabathia?
What if you have an opportunity to do a deal and Horne is the centerpiece in that deal?
The more quality arms you have, the more options you have. Its why, they need to know what to do with Horne right now.
He just needs to go down to AAA and pitch well. If he does, these issues have a way of working themselves out.
I’m sure someone can work something creative where Wang and Andy’s innings won’t be down.
rob it happens sometimes and doesnt happen other times, i dunno why
13 wins will be tough for hughes, he’ll likely only start 22 or so games
Well I personally think Hughes can win 15 games Josh… just lowballing it because I’m not sure we should pencil in 2 “rookies” for 25-30 wins.
I love Molina.
Rob NY,
Now that you mention it, I think you’re right. How bad was that pong & pacman background that I’d rather watch commercials?
btw are you using the old player or silverlight?
Nice Melky!
MELKY!!! Where did that swing come from!
MELKYYYYYY
(Channeling John Sterling): the Melkman delivers!
SJ44, I heard Cashman’s interview. As for the Santana deal, I just don’t believe him entirely. I suspect he provided us with a half-truth, as he so often does to protect himself from public criticism. Not that I blame him, of course. All executives do that.
The reason I’m dubious is because two reports contradict his narrative. First, Klapisch in the Record the day after the Mets acquistion has the Twins willing to accept IPK, Melky, and Marquez. (Albeit, I concede Madden and Olney’s subsequent report corroborates Cashman’s account about the Twins insisting upon Wang besides.)
Second, in recent interview Kiernan conducted with Hank, Hank claims the Yankees could have obtained Santana without including any of the Big 3. Why should I value Cashman’s account of the Twins’ demands as more credible than Hank’s?
What’s more Hank’s account conforms more closely to logic and to reports about Smith’s desperation in the late hours before the deadling expired to garner more than the Mets had offered.
Considering how little the Twins obtained from the Mets, it stands to reason that the Yankees could have matched or exceeded it with any number of offers excluding the Big 3 and centering instead around Horne, Marquez, and Melky.
im using the old one mel… silverlight any good?
lol. The gameday info on the silverlight player is ahead of the video. So I’m watching Molina hit a single and seeing Melky put up a one spot.
“I like horne but i dont see how he fits into our plans ever unless he becomes a reliever
next year i imagine we’re looking at:”
Ideally. What if someone flames out? Needs arm surgery?
If Horne DOES keep his walks down, I’d prefer to keep him at least until all three of the musketeers show health and prosperity. And if that means he turns into a setup guy and we keep him for years…awesome.
But, if he has a good year, and Bobby doesn’t…I feel like then you package him in a deal to get a good 30-ish RFer with a couple years left on his deal to serve as a stop-gap while you see if Tabata going to step up and take over that job.
Mel, what was Smith’s account of the Santana negotiations on YES. Considering Cashman’s often expressed dogma about refusing to trade prospects for a pitcher the Yankees have to pay like a free-agent, I’m skeptical that his account isn’t just as much a face-saving exercise or rather, a reflection of his seeing what he wishes to see.
that ball was BOWLED up there!
Rob,
Yes. it’s really good, but if you’re on wifi then you gotta use the old one. I’m hardwiring the laptop.
Whozat: That’s riding an awful lot on the assumption Tabata’s going to pan out.
More important stat regarding Wang: 8 groundouts, 1 flyout.
“Second, in recent interview Kiernan conducted with Hank, Hank claims the Yankees could have obtained Santana without including any of the Big 3.”
Where’s that?? I find it really hard to believe that that wasn’t MUCH bigger news in the NY media and on this blog. Fleas would have been in here SCREAMING if that was reported. How long ago was this interview?
Green PH for ARod? Please tell me that this is just bc it is a ST game, ARod is coming off a sore shoulder and obviously doesn’t need many more AB to be ready to play. . .
On the list of things you never want to read during the regular season while monitoring a Yankee game through Gameday, this has to be near the top:
“Offensive Substitution: Pinch hitter Nick Green replaces Alex Rodriguez.”
Billy: LMAO so true!
Kill,
IIRC, he basically said that the Yankees wanted to hold on to the prospects and then he had to watch Hughes twirl a gem.
“Whozat: That’s riding an awful lot on the assumption Tabata’s going to pan out.”
What? Trading for a youngish veteran RFer for two years or so? Why? That seems to be exactly NOT riding on the assumption that Tabata’s going to pan out. There aren’t any elite RFers on the FA market next year anyway, not sure about 2009. Why is using your organizational depth to acquire a quality player to whom you have no long-term commitment a bad idea? I mean…if Tabata has a good year, you don’t want to go spend all your chips to get a young stud. If he has a bad year…well, you still don’t want to spend all your chips to get a stud. He’s so young he could turn it around, Jackson could probably play over there for a year or two if needed…
It seems like acquiring a good-to-very-good RFer that’s around 30 with two years left would be sort of the ideal.
oh FARNSY
“Green PH for ARod? Please tell me that this is just bc it is a ST game”
Of course it is. Bums PH for our starters all the time in spring games…why would this particular time frighten anyone?
Girardi totally just pwned Kay. This is a thing of beauty.
If anyone is interested in the New York Yankees 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000 playoffs on DVD with each game shown in its entirety with great audio/video quality, the site is
http://www.ioffer.com/shops/kruse56
Also available are the entire seasons of the 1986, 1990, and 2007 Super Bowl Champion New York Giants
and
the entire seasons of the 2001, 2003, 2004 Super Bowl New England Patriots (that’s for you Pete).
Girardi,
That was your chance to tell Kay to stop calling them Generation Trey!!!!!!
I’ll take what the GM has to say over “reports” from others not involved in the talks. Bob Klapisch is a good reporter. He wasn’t negotiating the trade nor was in the room when discussions took place.
The specifics of what Cashman said today mirrors exactly what one of the agents for one of the players involved in the talks told me recently.
I know folks have a hard time believing it but, those were the offers at hand. The Twins made the same high demands from the Red Sox. That’s why the Red Sox passed.
Its really simple. If Bill Smith was to trade Santana to an AL team, he wanted more because he was going to face Santana for the next six years.
Especially, after he overplayed his hand at the Winter Meetings. Once he blew that window to do the deal, anybody with any expertise in this business could have told him the offers would be less, not more in Jan/Feb.
Its just the way the business works and, unfortunately for Twins fans, they got the short end of the stick.
whozat: Ah, I see, I wasn’t looking at it like that. Let’s just leave it at, I really like Abreu.
Then again, I’m biased as well. I think the Yankees will rue the day they didn’t trade for Santana.
With the Yankees’ starting rotation constructed as it is, I cannot forsee them making them playoffs.
The Yankees have two West Coast road-trips to Anaheim this season in August. In addition, they play Anaheim and Seattle 19 times in total, with 9 of those games scheduled between August 9 and September 10 on the West Coast.
The East is too competitive for the Wild-Card to originate from it. Toronto’s health and Tampa’s improvement will diminish the Yankees win totals. And I still can’t see them overtaking Boston for the division.
I have profound reservations about this team’s starting pitching and think the Yankees will rue the day they didn’t acquire Santana.
Lori and Billy
It was just for Spring Training reasons. ARod is fine.
Actually, I just took out the ethernet cord and the player’s doing fine. But when I tried to load the player previously on wireless, it lagged and I gave up on it.
I find that very hard to believe the Yankees could of had Santana without including at-least one of the three pitchers. If that was the case and that’s a big if then Cashmen would’ve probably have to give up Tabata,Jackson,Horne and others.
oh boy FARNSY
Thanks – I’m watching on gameday so you tend to lose a little bit (putting it mildly) of the action. Since he was the only one taken out, just wanted to confirm that there were no problems we should know about.
“Let’s just leave it at, I really like Abreu.”
Oh, me too. But, if he has a down year, or is asking for a 3 or 4 year deal…I have a REALLY hard time doing that.
If he has a good year, AND he’ll take a two year deal, perhaps with a team option for 2011…I’d think really hard about that, unless there’s a to-die-for trade out there or something. Like, Markakis for Darrel Rasner or something similarly absurd
Farnsworth really needs to strike batters out with some regularity before I can have the slightest bit of faith in him – ST or no ST. And I really want to have faith – I do, I do! But so far, it just ain’t happening.
Kill Schill: There’s obviouslyuu a chance that the Yankees don’t make the playoffs this year (I think the do). however, if you trade Phil for Santana, you lose about five or six years from an ace.
Yeah, Phil’s not an ace yet, but I think he’ll likely get there.
It’s a question of whether or not your willing to sacrifice one year now for the future of the team, and, well, I am. And besides, compared to the Orioles or Giants, we’re not really sacrificing much.
Great job by Joe on that interview with Kay. Never guess or assume. I liked that.
he scares me, it’s like watching Shaq shoot free throws but he sure makes a game exciting !!!
Whozat, I quote from the Great Hank below.
“There’s been a lot of pressure put on Phil Hughes, but the fact is that Hughes was not in the deal at the end, none of the three [Joba Chamberlain, Hughes or Ian Kennedy] were in the deal,” Steinbrenner said. “There was a possibility we could have made the trade without them. Minnesota called us with some other possibilities.”– New York Post, 02/12/08, by Kevin Kernan.
Scott – Not worried – read the post again – just commenting on the absurdity of the concept.
In reality, it would be offensive in both senses of the word
Rebecca, I’m just not convinced Hughes, over the next 6 years, will come close to duplicating what Santana would have given the Yankees. But only time will tell.
No elite right fielders?
I consider Abreu top 8 or 9. Vlad might shake free as well (has club option).
Oh and I wouldn’t worry about Horne. What if IPK ends up being a bust? Hughes a perpetual injury problem? It wouldn’t be the first time a “can’t miss” prospect failed to deliver…
I don’t think the Yankees will regret not doing the deal at all.
If you trade two pitchers for one, you are still short an arm.
For years, Pedro Martinez was a dominating pitcher for the Red Sox. More dominating than Santana ever has been.
Yet, they couldn’t beat the Yankees. Why? No depth in their rotation.
The idea is to have depth and quality in the rotation. Not just one great pitcher. That’s how the Yankees built a dynasty in the 90’s.
In addition, guys like Hughes, Chamberlain and Wang all have #1 starter-type skills.
The difference is, fans want a sure thing. Fans believe Santana is a sure thing. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a sure thing.
He’s a great pitcher. No one pitcher carries a team. You need more.
Give me quantity and quality and I’ll take it over one quality arm any day.
Its why, despite his great skill, he never advanced the Twins in the post-season. It takes more than one guy.
You don’t have to be convinced that Hughes will equal Santana’s production.
Thats not the comparison.
Its Hughes + $120m worth of other players vs. Santana.
A “possibility” doesn’t mean they could have done the deal.
The Yankees threw out a bunch of proposals to the Twins. They weren’t taking a lesser package from the Yankees.
The Red Sox are no sure thing this season. Beckett is already hurt. Schilling is out for the season. Wakefield is a question mark, as is Dice-K. Lester and Buchholz are going to have to shoulder the load this year.
They have more pitching question marks than the Yankees have at this time.
You play out the season for a reason. Nobody is a sure thing this year. That’s what makes it fun.
The issue isn’t whether or not Phil Hughes is a better pitcher than Johan Santana over the next 6 years. The issue really is, will the differences in their performance be so great, its worth spending 140 million to gain that advantage?
That’s a question nobody can answer right now.
soundslike wang was pretty good today…Im glasd to see him bounce back…..the thing with wang that puzzles me is that when he and I were teammates, he basically threw primarily 4 seamers mixed in a slider and his out pitch was a splittler. I wonder why they dont let him throw the splitter and slider any more. He was so nasty when we won the NY PENN championship.
Andy to be on WFAN in a few
Are Lester and Bucholz on an innings limit like Joba and Phil? They have to be. If that’s the case, then the Red Sox are going to have to rely on Bartolo. In that case, they are an injury to an everyday player away from being a 3rd place team.
Not me.
I’d take a rotation of Santana, Wang, Pettitte, IPK, and Mussina (with Joba as 6th starter and 8th inning setup role) to what we have currently.
As you so often write, SJ44, the Yankees’ farm system is no longer as bare as it was in the 80s and 90’s. Trading Hughes and Marquez would hardly have depleted their pitching talent.
McCutchen, Horne and when healthy, Garcia, Sanchez, Brackman all could have filled the void left by Hughes’ departure, the former two for this year and the latter for ‘09 or ‘10.
I also like the 200 innings Santana would have guaranteed– as much as any pitcher guarantees innings, that is– because it would have alleviated the burden on IPK and Joba and diminished the number of inning the Yankees would have to amass from Mussina, Karstens, Rasner, Igawa, etc.
I heard Bucholz is definitely on an inning limit this year & w/ Beckett hurt right now and Schilling nearing the end, it’s now up to Colon and Tavaras
Oh, Kay, just stop it. If you have to say the names “Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy” every time you say “Generation Trey”, it’s not worth it.
I mean, could you imagine? “A-Rod hits one out! Oh, I mean Alex Rodriguez, btw”.
Nice inning for Rasner.
Kill Schill -
I understand your unease with unproven players, but think back to the outset of last season, where we were looking at the 3 vets, plus Pavano and Igawa (who we got little from). Then the strugles of the first 2 months with the rotation revolving door. And we made the playoffs, almost catching the Sox whohad very limited injury impact in their rotation.
I also understand your concern about the Wild Card and the Central. But there, consider that the Chisox have made attempts to improve, plus had horrible seasons froa variety of players. KC may well have improved. Only MInny has regressed there, much like the East where Toronto is working off injuries, Tampa is improved, but Baltimore is slipping. I think Toronto and Tampa are better than Chicago and KC, but Minny’s better than Baltimore.
Last, Boston has to rely on some kids in their rotation too, and already is seeing a bit of the injuries that bugged us last season, and them in ‘06 when they failed to make the playoffs. So there’s certainly reason for some confidence. Sure the kids have to perform, and the bullpen has to improve, but those are certainly possible. Sure, if we have to use 11 different starters in the 1st 2 months like last year it will be tough – but how likely is that? From June to September, when healthy, the Yanks were superior to the Sox. Clemens is gone so his work needs replacing, as does the rotating mess at the back. All the kids have to do is improve over the average of everyone after the top 3, if they can hold their own. People are picking the Sox mainly because they’re the incumbent – lots picked the Yanks last year for the same reason.
HaHa – Moeller is so fresh they didn’t even time to photoshop a Yankees hat on him on his Gameday photo.
Do you know that since 2003, when Johan Santana has started, The Minnesota Twins record is 105-47.
That extrapolates into a 112-win team.
When Johan Santana didn’t start, the Twins were 12-games over 500. That’s about a 87 win team.
No difference?
*even HAVE time*
Kill Schill – That extrapolates into a 112-win team only if you have 5 Santanas in your rotation. Since no matter who we sent to Minnesota we wouldn’t have gotten 5 Santanas, not really a very relevant comparison.
Poor Andy. Talking to the two nuts
If anyone is interested in the New York Yankees 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000 playoffs on DVD with each game shown in its entirety with great audio/video quality, the site is
http://www.ioffer.com/shops/kruse56
Also available are the entire seasons of the 1986, 1990, and 2007 Super Bowl Champion New York Giants
and
the entire seasons of the 2001, 2003, 2004 Super Bowl New England Patriots (that’s for you Pete).
eversince Micheal Kay came up w/ that stupid nickname of Generation Trey it’s actually sticking now
ok Ransom has started to impress me a bit these last few days so has Porter oh god what to do
Look, I hope I’m wrong. 6 months from now, as the Yankees edge toward their 13th straight year qualifying for the playoffs, I hope you all can tell me what an alarmist I was and demand that I repent. I’ll do so gladly.
Similarly, if the stands are empty in September and all of the sudden October lacks the thrill we’ve become all too addicted to, I hope all of you who were so in love with the idea of entrusting the rotation to 3 kids with innings caps while A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, and Rivera age another year will question the wisdom of Cashman’s decision.
He’s also 1-3 in the post-season and he couldn’t lift that team to any post-season success by himself.
Not a knock to him. Just the way the game is.
When you consider the long term financial impact, as well as giving up a 21 year old kid, your starting CF and two other prospects, I just wouldn’t do that deal.
Take Hughes out of the deal, they would have had to add Wang and Kennedy, plus Cabrera to get it done. Way too much for one pitcher.
Nobody is doubting that he isn’t a great pitcher. But, as has been documented, it takes more than one guy to win.
For years, the Yankees have constantly gone after the “one” guy in order to get over the hump. It hasn’t worked.
Now, after seeing the way Hughes is throwing the ball, I am more convinced than ever the Yankees made the right move passing on the deal.
You make deals like that for more than one year. Over the long haul, I’d rather have the depth and quality of what they are putting together now.
Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy, along with Wang and Pettitte, represent an impressive starting 5. You throw Moose into the mix this year, and the prospect of (perhaps) a CC Sabathia next year, and the Yankees have their ducks in a row, pitching-wise.
Its now a question of guys going out there and just doing what they do well.
If they do that, things will work out just fine.
Swing the stick, Porter!
According to game day Porter took 3 pitches in the exact same spot, all of which were called strikes.
Meanwhile Rasner returned the favor to Overbay.
could you imagine if the yankees took street instead of that super bust poterson what the yankees pitching staff would be like this season. Games would be 5 innings
Apparently so did Lyle Overbay.
Andy is the best.
I agree that the no trade for Santana was a great non trade. We’d have to give up Melky + others in addition to Phil. Plus all the money.
Look at all the interest the young guns have created.
Was there this much buzz at the begining of last season?
Porter’s first two strikes were fouls down the left field line, third strike caught looking.
I’m impressed with Jason Lane’s performance this spring. Can someone tell me what his fielding has looked like? I haven’t had a chance to watch that closely.
That’s just it. Its not a one year decision.
The stands aren’t going to be empty in September regardless of the Yankees position in the standings.
Its the last year of Yankee Stadium. There won’t be an empty seat in the house this season.
They also won’t be out of the race in September. This is a very, very good team.
They didn’t make the deal because they were unwilling to give up the prospects AND the cash (paid to Santana) to make the trade.
Mainly, because they see the finish line re: their prospects and, with all the money coming off the books after this season, can go out and sign Sabathia, and not give up any prospects.
You can’t look at the Santana decision as a one year deal. These are decisions that are made for the long haul, not the short haul.
not to mention the innings watch for Phil and Joba would be thrown out the window as the bullpen would need chemo therapy.
I was JUST about to comment on how Rasner finally looks like he wants a spot in the bp, and then…
Porter get the hell out of the way of the CFer Brett would have had that !!!!
Cashman is a loser either way you look at it. The bum has spoken on various occasions about how he is not proud having the highest payroll and how he wants to reduce payroll. The guy is busy pinching Steinbrenner’s money like an A**hole. Why doesnt the loser just petition MLB for a salary cap, so we can really lose any advantage we had.
There’s no way he would have had that. He wasn’t even close. That should have been Porter’s ball anyway. Way to thank fast and react Porter
Lori, what that stat suggests is that with Santana at the top of your rotation, all of your other pitchers can be mediocre or certainly better than the Twins’ rotation was, as the Yankees’ would be, even without Hughes, and you still can be a perennial playoff contender.
Santana averages about 22 Win Share. The Yankees replacement for Santana, in contrast, is either Hughes or their fifth starter, depending on how you examine the comparison.
Subtract the latter’s Win Share from Santana’s win share and that’s how many additional wins you can estimate Santana would provide.
At least, that’s how I understand the Win-Share VORP measure to work. Feel free to enlighten me, if you know otherwise.
taking arod out of the mix. do the yanks have any position players, who are the highest paid at their respective positions. am or nat.
AS2008, the CF always has the right to the balls in the gap, Porter’s cut the CFer twice already this spring, just saying he needs to get the hell out the way. Plus knowing Brett he probably called for it too.
J Train,
I was soooo pissed about that draft pick. I couldn’t believe that Street fell all the way to the sandwich round only to have the Yanks pass on him and watch Oakland snatch him up quickly.
Meanwhile, Poterson is out of baseball and Street is still a legitimate late-inning guy (not exactly an elite closer though).
Posada is the highest paid catcher and Mo is highest relief other than that no.
Just to interject into this argument, we won the wild card and finished 2 games out of the division race with a rotation that inluded a post 4 ERA Clemens, an injured and ineffective Mike Mussina, No Wang for the first weeks of the season, No Hughes for months, Pavano as our opening day starter, and Matt Desalvo, Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Darrel Rasner, Jeff Karstens, Kei Igawa and Sean Henn starting a combined 36 games. I think we’ll do alright this season.
thanks brandon, was curious.
NICE catch.
SJ44, to the contrary, I’m not looking at this as one-year deal, though I apologize if my comments have suggested as much.
When Mussina and Pettitte depart after 2008 or 2009, I’d still much prefer to anchor my rotation with Santana and Wang as they age through their late twenties and early thirties respectively. This way whatever IPK and Joba provide is a bonus not a necessity. Moreover, if Pettitte delays his retirement you have added boon.
As of now if the Yankees don’t renew Mussina and Pettitte retires, they begin 2009 with Wang and Hughes (at 175 innings) as their 1-2. Not something that inspires my confidence.
If the Yankees do indeed sign Sabbathia, SJ44, then I’ll concede the argument.
“They also won’t be out of the race in September. This is a very, very good team”– SJ44
From your mouth to G-d’s ears, man.
Fernando, not to mention an injured and out of shape Damon, Abreu and Giambi, an injured Matsui, etc
Rebecca – watching on gameday; who made the catch?
Derek on the Fan now
I’m with Fernando on this one. Even *if* the kids struggle a bit, it is likely that they will outperform last year’s starters.
The bullpen with a half year of Joba, Hawkins and assorted minor leahgue options should improve as well.
As for trusting Farnsy, well that is another story.
A-Rod, Jeter, Mo, and Posada are the highest paid players at their positions. Giambi might be in that list too, depending on how much he makes this year, and of course if you consider him a 1B or DH. He’s definitely the highest paid DH, but he’s in the conversation at 1B.
Kill-Schill, if Hughes pitches a full season this year he will be at around 190-200 innings limit next year.
Are they trying to make me hungry??? that looks good
Where’s the game day? I’m watching on MLB.tv is there somewhere else I can watch?
Coates made the catch, robbing Jorge or at least extra bases…
Motown: Missed it, whoever’s in center for the Jays
Of course, those are last year’s numbers – who knows what the diference will be this? I suspect that in the short run a deal could have been good for the Yanks, but the org seems to recognize that now isn’t the time to think short run. The team is beeing retooled while hopefully remaining in contention.
Plus it’s hard for me to agree that McCutcheon, Horne, etc are necessarily going to fill for Hughes. They look good, but are all 4 years older and 1 or 2 levels behind Phil. Their performance indicators are godd – Hughes’ are top 5%. He could be a #1 starter – it’s not a guarantee. And Santana is one. But for how long, and at what cost.
It’s a historic year for the Yanks, would be nice to be a success. Santana would certainly have helped. I just don’t think we’re precluded from success now, and going forward sticking with the kids offers more flexibility down the road. The Yanks aren’t going to stop acquiring FA’s to fill holes, and very good guys are going to become available – Sabathia and Teixeira possibly next season. They could be a financial wash with Pettitte and Giambi. Leaving us to ditch Moose and Pavano’s salaries, decide how to fill Abreu’s spot and $16 mil, hopefully replace Farns’ and Hawkins $9.5 mil at least 1/2 internally and cheap. The kids bring flexibility – and there’s every chance we can also win now with them.
Oh, I didn’t even go into the offense. Two players in their walk years playing for contracts (Abreu and Giambi), two players competing for time (Damon and Matsui), two players looking to prove their worth (Melky and Cano), and a rookie player looking to prove he belongs (Duncan). Throw into that mix the veteran elite (Jeter, A-Rod, and Posada) and you have a lineup ready to do damage this year.
I wouldn’t worry so much about cost SJ44. Recent estimates the Yankees have filed with the New York State BOnd Commission imply that the new Stadium will earn them an additional $100 million in revenue each year.
What’s more, the interest they have to pay on the mortgage is tax-deferred and they can deduct the interest payments as well from the amount they contribute annually to revenue-sharing.
A 29-year old Santana is not a 41-yr old RJ, a 40-yr old Brown or Jeff Weaver or Javier Vasquez or Carl Pavano or Jared Wright.
Santana is what Pedro was when the Sux acquired him in 1997. Pretty good deal the Sux made, eh?
I was always surprised how at one point people last year thought trading a 2-time 19-game winner for a 1-time 19-game and 1-time 20-game winner was going to increase the team’s win total by a significant amount. Yes, Santana is real good and except for a part of last year he’s been better than Wang. Arguably, he could be the best out there in recent years. Would NY win that many more games with him? Maybe they’d win a couple, but not that many.
But what do you give up to get him? Wang … PLUS Kennedy, PLUS Melky? Plus maybe more in prospects? No way.
Watch: Kennedy plus Wang will win as many as Santana plus whoever would have come in to take the open slot at the bottom of the rotation. They’ll pitch at the very least 50 more innings too. And maybe not this year, but soon, the difference between Hughes’ (the original offer) and Santana’s performance will dwindle.
When Hughes was on the table I was having a tough time accepting that he may not be a Yankee in the future. If Santana wins 18 this year while Hughes goes 13-6 with limited starts and shows he could be even better next year, I consider it a good non-move.
If I’m short by a game or two on either count, some will say that proves it was stupid not to make the move. We’re talking about a game or two or three. This year. When the kids are still a little green. Are those couple games worth $120million when we’re also losing 2 veterans (Pettitte/Moose) and their almost 400 combined innings at the end of the year?
Some of the combined pro-Santana/anti-Moose whiners don’t realize is that the Kennedy/Wang deal could have locked Moose into the rotation no matter whether Moose does well or not. IMO we’re better off with the depth than Santana.
Thanks. That’s too bad.
I’m thinking of drafting Jorge for my fantasy team; it’s either him or Mauer. Any thoughts? I had Jorge last year, and he was, well, we all know he was great.
Patrick, I heard the Yankees will cap Hughes at 175 innings. Enlighten me, if you know otherwise.
I hate to break it to some people here but not all of our young pitchers are going to develop. We will be extremely lucky if we have Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy in the rotation for an extended period of time.
r- bizzler
I was so furious when I saw that the Yankees passed on Street for Poterson. That was such a bad decision….how did they drop the ball on that one?
The yanks would have to put the entire sloan kettering medical staff on the payroll because the pitching would be that sick.
Just think about it…Hughes Mussina and Kennedy would be able to only go 5 innings each outing.
Ranting Guy, I certainly wouldn’t have traded IPK and Wang for Santana. I wouldn’t have traded Wang period, not for any pitcher in the major leagues and that includes Josh Beckett.
My arguments only center on the premise of relinquishing Hughes and/or the multiple prospects that exclude the Yankees Big Three, as Kernan’s piece implies.
Sox didn’t win with Pedro. In fact, they oh 04 to our collapse, more than anything else.
Motown: I have Mauer
Bruney looked good
How many titles did the Sox win with Pedro? One, on a fluke, when they acquired more balance to their rotation.
As great as he was, he never led the Red Sox to a division title over the Yankees. The Yankees also won 4 WS competing against Pedro each year.
It takes more than one guy to win.
This is not exactly a reclamation project with the Yankees. They came awfully close to winning last year and their pitching was a mess.
Its not a mess this year. Its just young in some areas. Nothing wrong with being young.
In terms of the money, every single pitcher who has signed a 100+ million dollar contract has been a bust. Every one.
Its awfully tough to commit that kind of cash to a guy who plays once every five days.
The smart teams don’t do it that way. The Red Sox also passed on Santana. Look at their rotation. One could argue they need Santana more than the Yankees right now.
I don’t think the Yankees are on a food stamp program. I do think they want to spend their wiser than they have in the past.
With the depth of their pitching talent, plus the fact they can get Sabathia (if they want to) in the off-season, its pretty clear the Yankees didn’t want to give up the prospects AND the money for one guy.
Given the fact that 100+ million dollar pitchers have a 100% failure rate in MLB, you can understand their hesitacy.
Everybody believes one guy makes a difference. Me? I’d rather have more depth and quality than one guy.
But, that’s just me. I could be wrong.
ALL – STAR GAME
Jeter just mentioned the All-Star game.
I know we don’t campaign like they do up north but – we should vote early and often for our guys this year.
Tell your friends
Kill-Schill, The yankees have not made public the cap they are putting on Hughes this year but it is safe to assume they will limit him to 165-175 as you say. However, you said in 2009 his innings limit will be 175 which is false. This is because if he finishes this year with 165-175 they will increase that limit for next year to 195-205. Then in 2010 he will have no limits. (This is all assuming he pitches a full year and has no injuries)
Rebecca – are you worried about his lack of power? Or should I not listen to CBS sportsline?
Also –
Losing Pettitte’s $$$ + Moose’s $$$ a year from now would be almost as much as the Santana $$$ NY would have been committed to. Santana can only pitch about 60% as many innings as they would. So losing their contracts doesn’t equate to Santana.
Someone’s got to come fill those innings. Right about then is when advocates of the Wang/Kennedy/Cabrera for Santana trade would be spending more $$$ and/or wishing NY still had Wang & Kennedy.
Is Gardner going to make the team? Or can Lane play CF in a pinch? I think Matsoo will start the season on the DL, and Lane or Gardner could make it as a fourth OF.
what is it w/ Micheal Kay’s fascination w/ Chris Qoodward
* Woodward *
C’mon Chad!
I got Dave Eiland’s autograph back in the late 80s going to my second Yanks game. We got there early and watched warm ups, so I reached out and he signed. Meanwhile, my sisters who aren’t even interested in baseball, got Guidry’s autograph while they were just walking around away from the action. Still ticks me off to this day. Anyhow, maybe now Eilands autograph will be worth something.
Vince remember that Duncan plays RF at least I think they would be loathe to carry yet another outfielder and the position they really need to carry is another infielder IMO
Motown: Not worried. I’m not a huge fantasy person but my rotation ins stacked: Bedard, Kazmir, Lincecum, Carmona, Hughes, Chamberlain, Nathan…
com’on Cody gap one !
Rebecca looksgood EXCEPT the first 3 have had injury issues in the past would be surprised if they all stay healthy
Anyone care to share what’s going on in the game right now? I think my game day is frozen.
Cody? Gameday still has Brett Gardner up with one ball.
rebecca, roto or h2h league?
“Santana is what Pedro was when the Sux acquired him in 1997. Pretty good deal the Sux made, eh?”
Really?
Pedro > Santana.
Pedro was also turning 26 the year he started pitching for Boston as opposed to 29.
Pedro had an ERA+ of 219 for Montreal his last year with them.
From age 27 until age 32 Pedro’s lowest ERA+ was 189.
Santana’s best ERA+ was when he was 25 and it was 182.
Do you really want to compare Boston’s acquisition of Pedro to the Yanks possible acquisition of Santana?
bases loaded (ransom walks), Porter’s up…2 outs
kill schill -its not just hughes -it was hughes and our starting CF that is one of the best in the game. we can conservatively estimate hughes will win 12 games this year based on last year. we can estimate santana would win 18 games based on last year. is it worth 120 million over 6 years as those numbers narrow PLUS losing your startign centerfielder? Having Damon in CF and Matsui in LF would take away the 6 game difference most likely as it is.
you lost the argument, come back if the stadium is empty in september this year and say i told you so, until then shut the hell up. your annoying me on an otherwise great thread
Rebecca – that’s a great rotation. Love the youth. That’s what I focus on in my draft. It’s a keeper league and I joined after the first year, so all the really good players are unavailable (my husband had Alex). The league is hilarious, a bunch of high school boys, some of their dads and my husband and me. They refer to me as “Mrs.” Ouch.
Gayle: agreed, but you never know.
J Train: I THINK head-to-head, but I’m not sure what the difference is. It’s through Yahoo.
fly out to left, inning over…
dammit Porter just missed it
eyt, relax pa. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
So . . . bases loaded, two out, Porter up, and then???
Rishi, thank you. I was stuck with Gardner’s ball one.
Hi Gayle. I think the infield is covered with Betemit, Duncan and Ensberg, assuming Ensberg makes it. I think a pinch-runner, defensive OF with some speed would be a welcome addition to replace Damon or Abreu. And Gardner has shown a good OBP.
rebecca, if it’s head to head, you play against someone in your league on a given week (at least on yahoo). for rotisserie, it’s an overall accumulation of stats vs the rest of the league…
Motown: I’m the only female. One of the guys offered me Matsui for Lincecum straight up, and I was like, no. Give me Hanley. (I have Sizemore, Justin Upton and Bobby Abreu in my outfield…)
Saucy: Yeah, it’s head to head then.
Rebecca – good negotiating. I like the fantasy league because it gives me an outlet for my baseball obsessing. My ten year old daughter wants her own team. I know her first pick would be Melky, so we won’t let her!
Vince but that is exactly the issue the numbers just dont work out. They can only carry 25 guys
12 will be pitchers
Arod,Jeter, Cano, Giambi,Molina, Posada, Matsui, Damon,Abreu,Melky
make it 22
Betemit makes it 23
Duncan makes it 24
so that leaves 1 spot i dont think they will use it for yet another OF but more so for an infielder as you need someone else who can play rather than a 6th outfielder option
“How many titles did the Sox win with Pedro? One, on a fluke, when they acquired more balance to their rotation.
As great as he was, he never led the Red Sox to a division title over the Yankees. The Yankees also won 4 WS competing against Pedro each year?”
You do realize that after the Sux acquired Pedro they went from a 78-win team and fourth-place team in ‘97 to a 92-win team and a Wild-Card qualifier in ‘98 and never finished below 2nd in any year afterward.
The Yankees also happen to be an infinitely superior lineup and closer, if not an entire rotation, to the ‘98-’04 Red Sox. (To my mind, a Yankees team with their lineup and Wang and Santana as their 1-2 in a playoff series are a WS favorite.)
Incidentally, if you didn’t think Pedro had dramatic impact on the Red Sox fortunes, then well, I would ask you to re-examine the numbers.
“With the depth of their pitching talent, plus the fact they can get Sabathia (if they want to) in the off-season, its pretty clear the Yankees didn’t want to give up the prospects AND the money for one guy”– SJ44
You do realize Sabathia is going to command a salary roughly commensurate to Santana’s?
Of all the $100 million+ pitchers, none were the premiere pitcher in baseball, under 30, and still in their prime.
Indeed only two were signed while they was still under 29- Hampton and Zito. Neither one of whom rivalled Santana in quality and durability before the Rockies and Giants, respectively, signed them.
According to the box scores, it looks like Bruney is having a solid game.
“and our starting CF that is one of the best in the game.”
Yeah, eyt, right.
“until then shut the hell up”
Uh, no, if you don’t like what I have to write then don’t read it.
BTW, we usually conduct ourselves with more civility on this site. But from reading your frequent contributions I gather you don’t know what that word means.
Motown: Hah, I don’t think I started until I was 14 or 15 and my only goal was to nab as many Yankees as possible!
Yeah, I didn’t do too hot…
The difference between Sabathia and Santana is one requires money to acquire. The other required money AND prospects to acquire.
My point about Pedro is, it takes more than one pitcher to win.
Yes, he improved the Red Sox and they still couldn’t overtake the Yankees even though he was far and away the best starter on either staff, because the Yankees had a more balanced staff than the Red Sox.
That’s what the Yankees are looking to do now. Put out 4-5 solid starters, use their offense to bludgeon bad pitching, and go about their business.
If it doesn’t work, they can always overpay for CC Sabathia in the off-season. If it does work, and by “work”, I mean they make the playoffs again, they are set up for a great future.
They are doing what amounts to be the impossible. Reload and be competitive. Tough to do but, they are doing it and doing it well thus far.
One would think that the way Hughes has looked this spring, that there wouldn’t be any more bitching about Santana. The Yankees have gone down the path of trading good young prospects for aging Vets…It has almost always come back and bit them in the ass.
As for the abundance of Talent in the Yankee farm system. Let’s keep it that way… The fact is that the Yanks did get lucky with some of these kids, drafting them way below there projected slot because of money. This will not happen alot in the future. Other Teams have seen the light. When you add the fact that Detroit, Seattle, Arizona and the Mets have gutted their farms this off-season and will need to reload. It stands to reason that the Yankees and the Redsox will not have the top Prospects all to themselves for the forseeable future.
Vince –
if Betes, Shelly, and Ensberg are on the club, there’s not a spot for another OF. We’re gonna carry 12 pitchers, so those 3, 3OF’s + Matsui (who won’t be on the DL, he’ll DH to start), 4IF (Giambi, Cano, Jeter, A-Rod), and 2 C’s make 13. Gardner’sonly on if somebody’s hurt. Even then he might not be first or second in line – he’s only played 1/2 a AAA season.
By the way, is Gameday correct? Bruney – 10 pitches, 10 strikes? That’s a breakthrough of epic proportions _ for him anyway.
Gameday is nowhere near right – he did well, but not that well…did get a strike out to end the game
VOIII – LA, Arizona and Detroit all paid above slot before the Yanks or Sox ever did.
Omar has destroyed the Mets’ farm system, he puts no money into the draft and makes poor choices.
Still a step forward for Bruney.
Ray, Pedro was in the NL, not the AL, so I don’t think the ERA comparison are entirely fair.
And a three-year age differential is not all that great when you consider that Santana didn’t start pitching 200 innings a year until 2004.
Santana is a rather young 29 in terms of inning totals. What’s more, his change-up suggests a longevity that will extend well beyond the years when his fastball loses a few mph in velocity. And his fastball-changeup repertoire doesn’t expose him to injuries the way a breaking-ball pitcher’s does.
Still, the Red Sox trades for Beckett and Pedro have worked out pretty well for them. Something to think about before making a fetish of prospects and refusing to trade them.
teams in the AL to be possible playoff contenders:
Tigers
Angels
Yankees
Indians
Red Sox
Mariners
Possible others:
White Sox
Blue Jays
4 teams make it in…so who is out?
I can’t imagine that number is right. He faced 6 batters and struck out two of them. That would mean he needed only 4 pitches for the other 5. That would be incredible, but highly unlikely.
Pete…love the sarcastic lines in the posts. Good stuff.
thisguy: I don’t see the Mainers contending, to be fair.
I don’t know if Eiland’s a genius but Gator had no business being the PC last sesaon.
White Sox have no chance in my opinion but its debatable. I think Tampa Bay has a shot which I’m sure many will disagree with.
Honestly I think the Mariners are overrated, their record was way above their RS/RA. Adding Bedard helps but their offense is still a sham.
I also think the Tigers will miss the playoffs. They have an amazing offense but their pitching is bad after Verlander. Cleveland is much more balanced; their offense is only a tick below Detroit’s, they have perhaps the best starting pitching duo in the majors and a lockdown bullpen.
Yankees and Red Sox are both better than the Tigers in my opinion.
after last season’s win total, and the bedard trade, you’d have to at least put their name in…i personally think it will be the tigers, indians, yanks, red sox, and angels…although i like the bluejays team, they still have a lot to prove…
however, 4 teams get in, and that still makes 5…so who is out?…
No one else is worried about this season?
“You do realize Sabathia is going to command a salary roughly commensurate to Santana’s?”
Santana would cost $$$$ AND Hughes AND Melky. Two players that the Yanks control at a very low cost. That’s the point. The logic behind this is pretty simple. Let’s be optimistic for a second and say Hughes really is something special which is what the Yankees think. If he becomes a front of the rotation guy in the next two years what would be the going rate be for a free agent of similar quality?? Ok, now take that amount, and add it on top of what it would have cost them to sign Santana. Ohh yeah and add the value of Melkey and two other prospects that they wanted. That’s the point. Santana’s contract + the value of what they project Hughes to be is FAR greater than just going out there and signing a free agent like CC.
“You do realize that after the Sux acquired Pedro they went from a 78-win team and fourth-place team in ‘97 to a 92-win team and a Wild-Card qualifier in ‘98 and never finished below 2nd in any year afterward.”
You do realize that certain other things also made them better besides Pedro right?
In 1997 Boston’s top 4 starters had the following ERA’s
3.74
4.25
5.38
5.69
In 1998 these were their top 4 starters ERA’s
2.89
3.96
4.58
5.02
Huge difference top to bottom no?
Kill Shill,
You’re flat out ignoring the cost difference between Santana and Hughes or whatever prospects would be given up.
It wasn’t the prospects that killed the deal.
It wasn’t the money that killed the deal.
It was the money AND prospects that killed the deal.
The fair way to look at it is Hughes & Sabathia vs. Santana.
Which would you rather have?
al playoff predictions:
yanks
indians
angels
tigers (wc)
going out on a limb here, i know…
Thisguy: To early to be sure, but I like the Indians, I like the Yankees and I like the Angels.
I might actually go with the Mariners or Tigers over the Red Sox, if their pitching staff holds up. The Tigers certainly have a better line-up..but you can’t ignore the major pitching questions outside of Verlander. However, as SJ pointed out earlier, the Red Sox staff is far from set.
Barring a collapse, the Mariners should be in it until the end, and the Blue Jays would be in another division. I don’t think the White Sox are in it this year, but I’ve been way wrong before.
Thisguy: Oh, sure I’m worried, but what good does it do anyone to worry? I’m not the GM and I’m not employed in baseball in any capacity, so I’m not going to worry over what I can’t control.
according to cashman…there as no deal in place to get santana for a kennedy, melky, and prospects package…
since that is the case, i cant start saying how we should have definitely gotten santana…now if he turned down a kennedy, melky, prospects deal…id be highly annoyed…
…but nothing has indicated that was the case…therefore…it is a lot harder to get angry against turning down a package of hughes, melky, jackson, etc, than it is a kennedy, melky, jackson, etc. package…
…let’s move on, unless we hear something otherwise.
The Mariners? The Bedard trade really doesn’t do that much for them. Their offense is horrible and they have two good pitchers.
This guy:
East – Yankees
Central – Detroit
West – Mariners
Wild Card – Angels
I think that Bedard is a big addition to the Seattle line up. There offense was decent last year, their bullpen should be as good or better and there rotation should be much better.
I’m torn between the Indians and the Tigers in the central. I think the strength of the division will lower the records of the teams in it taking them out of the wild card.
The Yankees were two games away from another division title last year. This team seems to be at least two games better than last years. barring injury it should be a good one. The Red Sox miss out in my scenario for the same reason as the Indians.
whats up with Yousef Hawkins? Has he pitched in a ST game yet? I get the feeling that he might wind up being another Karsay Soze.
If the Yankees sign Sabathia, then as I acknowledged earlier, I’ll concede the argument. But something tells me if Sabathia wants Santana money ($100+ million) the Yankees will forgo him too.
Besides, how many more productive years do Rivera and Posada, to say nothing of all the 33 and over players from the outfield to the infield’s left side, have remaining?
I’ve read Genarro’s argument about the added cost of ceding players to acquire a pitcher a team then has to pay as a free-agent.
I think it’s a flawed one however. I don’t know how you can quantify a World Series championship.
Financial analysis is instrumental for a budget conscious team with a limited payroll like the Indians. The Yankees, however, don’t run themselves like a Fortune 500 company that measures success by profit margins. Were that the case they wouldn’t have had a $200 million+ payroll all these years. The Yankees measure success by winning championships, not by exceeding the competition in the accounting columns.
For my money, I’ve ceded Hughes, Cabrera, and Marquez. And rested confident for all the premiere pitching depth I have in my farm system– from Brackman to Sanchez to McCutchen, Garcia, and Horne– to assume the Hughes’ slot in the rotation. Perhaps, not a one would exceed Hughes.
But then again, I’d have Santana and not have to worry about waiting for Hughes to develop into an ace while A-Rod, Jeter, and Posada enter the autumn of their careers and Rivera and Pettitte retire.
KillSchill –
When the Sox got Pedro they were doing other tinkering too. And if a guy like him goes to a 78-win team like Boston was pre-Pedro, and he replaces a guy who wins only 6 or 8 games all year of course you’re going to see a jump in the team’s season win totals.
They won in ‘04 with luck and a deeper rotation. Pedro, Shilling, Lowe, Arroyo, Wakefield all had good years.
The Yanks were a playoff team last year and the pitching was already more stable/reliable going into this year. Santana for Wang alone would have been replacing someone who’s probably good for 17-19 wins with someone who’s probably good for 18-20. The difference is not the same. Further, if you throw consider the exchange of Kennedy and whoever would’ve taken Kennedy’s innings in NY, your net win total is a little more likely to go down than up.
Completely inappropriate J Train.
Wow where did that come from.
real classy J train.
“honeslty, I would throw 100 million at any black pitcher…black pitchers suck”
Pete, there really isn’t any place on your blog (or in America for that matter) for people like this. You should definitely ban his IP address.
That doesn’t make it better J Train. I think the best option is to stop posting those thoughts.
its just the truth. I didnt know this blog was so pc…should I refer to the black seats in centerfield at yankee stadium as the african american seats, I dont want to offend anyone.
Raymagnetic, did you look at Pedro’s Win Shares during the years 1998-2004 for the Red Sox?
Pedro’s VORPs and league rank for pitchers.
1) ‘98- 80.4 (4th in MLB)
2) ‘99– 102.3 (1st in MLB)
3) ‘00- 116.7 (1st in MLB)
4) ‘01 (Injury year)
5) ‘02– 70.1 (5th in MLB)
Do you know how to convert these numbers into Win Shares with James’ Pythagorean formula. I don’t.
Will Santana duplicate these now that he’s been traded? I don’t know. But his VORP totals are every bit Pedro’s rival.
you do realize that the yanks rotation is as unproven and unknown as anyone’s rotation…we’re not even sure if it is going to be a 6 man rotation, a 5 man rotation, or how many innings the kids can go…
…plus andy is a year older, moose is a yr older, and hopefully wang can continue his durable run…
…i just dont see any clear cut answer to my question, and it can easily be said that the yanks will miss the playoffs this year.
are you ***ing kidding J-Train? Pete, you gotta do something about this guy…last week it was homophobia now this…
Ranting guy, I never championed trading Wang for Santana, with IPK or without IPK. Just Hughes for Santana.
I wouldn’t trade Wang for any pitcher in baseball.
“rotation…we’re not even sure if it is going to be a 6 man rotation, a 5 man rotation, or how many innings the kids can go…”
It’ll be a five man.
Joba will pitch around 140 innings, Hughes around 165-175 (he threw 146 in 2006, so that’s fine), and Ian around 190. Some of Joba’s innings will be as a starter, and someone will be bumped…if no one’s succumbed to injury.
So…I just answered most of your questions. Do we know that they’ll all provide league average production or better? No. But do you know that of Lester, Buchholz, Carmona, Burnett, Willis, Bonderman, etc etc etc?
hence why i said there isn’t a clear cut answer to my question…but one could make the argument, and a strong one, that the yanks will be out of the playoffs…of course you can say that for almost any team that has just been mentioned…but once again…hence there isn’t a clear cut answer…
and apparently it seems that joba will begin the season as the starter…from what we’ve heard recently…
…therefore, your projections may be off…and if they aren’t and joba is starting, then is it a 6 man rotation, or is moose out, or is kennedy, or hughes, or andy, or wang?…
…well?
…i feel joba should start in the pen, then be moved to the rotation if necessary…but everyone now seems to think he will begin the season as a starter.