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A New York Yankees blog by Chad Jennings and the staff of The Journal News


Today in The Journal News

Posted by: Peter Abraham - Posted in Misc on Mar 12, 2008 Print This Post Print This Post | Email This Post Email This Post

Chien-Ming Wang looked sharp yesterday in what was an important game for him.

The Yankees play the Devil Rays today in St. Pete and people will be watching to see if the Yankees retaliate for Francisco Cervelli getting run over on Saturday. Andy Pettitte starts today.

To me, this is a matter you let the Scranton Yankees settle with the Durham Bulls. Pettitte wasn’t even at the park when the incident happened on Saturday. Why should he risk suspension and hit somebody?

But baseball being baseball, we wouldn’t be surprised if something happens today. Just don’t expect some sort of brawl. As one Yankee veteran said to me yesterday, “If you think I’m running out there during a spring training game and getting my shoulder hurt by some fired-up kid on their team, you’re crazy.”

Meanwhile the world awaits a handshake between Joe Girardi and Don Zimmer.

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220 Responses to “Today in The Journal News”

  1. Stephen March 12th, 2008 at 7:21 am

    “If you think I’m running out there during a spring training game and getting my shoulder hurt by some fired-up kid on their team, you’re crazy.”

    Yikes. “Some fired-up kid”? That’s sounds a little too dismissive.

  2. talisaynon March 12th, 2008 at 7:30 am

    it’s the Rays brother

  3. Baja March 12th, 2008 at 7:59 am

    Let Billy Crystal handle it.

  4. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 7:59 am

    The Sox have had a running feud with the (Devil) Rays for several years now. It’s irrelevant who’s “at fault.” (I don’t think anyone knows anymore.) But, from the Sox viewpoint, many games (even “meaningless” September games) feature brushback episodes and bench clearing scuffles which could lead to suspensions and injuries for the Sox. The Rays, of course, are out of contention, so what do they care?

    If the Yankees are smart, they’ll drop it. A feud with the Rays will only hurt them. The Rays will NEVER go away.

    Also, the play at the plate wasn’t a clear-cut “dirty” play. If Cervelli hadn’t been injured (or if the Ray had been injured), there’d be a lot of bravado about how he (Cervelli) “blocked the plate” and played “hard-nosed baseball.” The only issue is whether the play was appropriate in ST, and opinions are mixed on that topic.

    On that track, I’ve seen little uproar from Yankee fans over Joba throwing at (and hitting) the next Twin batter after a monster home run (very next pitch). Suppose the Twin’s batter had fractured an ankle bone? Joba’s fit of pique (and it WAS deliberate) is over the top, even during the regular season. The Twin batter just hit the HR and ran around the bases. Nothing special, no need to hit the next guy. Especially in ST ……

    P.S. Beckett gave up almost 40 HR 2 years ago, and didn’t throw at any of the next hitters. After last year’s Joba/Youkilis incident (which certainly raised some eyebrows), maybe Girardi should coach his own team on baseball etiquette, starting w/Joba.

  5. johnny7 March 12th, 2008 at 8:00 am

    Retalliation:

    It won’t be Pettitte… however, someone vying for a spot on the roster WILL get the assignment.

  6. Robert March 12th, 2008 at 8:06 am

    It is silly to start a brawl over this. Save it for when we hit a mid summer losing streak. Players get hurt. That’s just the way it goes.
    http://www.recreateyourlifenow.com

  7. murphydog March 12th, 2008 at 8:13 am

    Yikes. “Some fired-up kid”? That’s sounds a little too dismissive.

    Stephen: When you get older, you’ll understand; discretion is truly the better part of valor.

    I realize Cervelli was hurt on a dubious play, but I apportion some fault to each: Cervelli was asking for some contact by blocking the plate and Johnson shouldn’t have dropped his head and shoulders and plowed into Cervelli. I make it 60%-40% Johnson’s fault, but only because Cervelli was hurt. If he wasn’t hurt, we probably wouldn’t be having this “war council” meeting about today’s game.

    Let it go until the regular season and wait for an appropriate game situation, like a hard slide into 2d to break up the DP or a play where their catcher is blocking the plate. JMO, but going out of his way to retaliate in a ST game will cost Girardi some credibility, make him look like a hot head.

    As for Zim and Girardi, Zim’s just a baseball-crazy old dude. When you are dealing with a lovable yet irascible foe, you have to take most of their excesses and nuttiness. It’s the one good thing about getting old, people are supposed to treat you with respect and deference, even if they disagree.

  8. murphydog March 12th, 2008 at 8:30 am

    Brian(Red Sox Fan):

    I don’t entirely disagree about cautioning players to be respectful and gentlemanly, at least at first.

    But on the other hand, the Yankees have been targeted by a lot of teams because they have been at the top of their Division for so long, along with the Sox, and are a perennial playoff team. Other teams’ players feel their team will never spend the money and thus never have the talent to compete, and that the Yanks and Sox are lording it over them. So, without any other way to fight back sometimes they literally fight, throwing elbows or knees or spikes or baseballs. The Yankees have taken more than their share of hits, are sick of it, and are thinking about striking back with a new manager and younger players.

    Still, the Yankees and Sox have to understand that they are despised by a lot of opposing teams and players (and media mavens like the Jealous Joes, Buck and Morgan), as “cheaters” for they way they spend money. I don’t see it that way myself because I believe in freedom of choice, personal responsibility and capitalism. Yet I understand the other teams’ frustrations with their cheapskate ownership, refusing to spend money to meet the challenge laid out by the Yankees and Sox.

    So, yes, I think the Yankees – and Sox – should behave better than a bunch of thugs who resort too often to the dark arts of physical intimidation. When they play each other however they are peers and can let it all hang out:)

  9. John in Ohio March 12th, 2008 at 8:42 am

    Just heard Jayson Stark on the radio saying that he hasn’t heard anyone in Florida agree with Girardi’s indignation at this incident.

  10. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 8:44 am

    Murphydog …. Somewhere, there’s a line between “sticking up for yourself” and “getting involved in self-destructive vendettas.” I don’t claim to know where the line is.

    I do know that I cringe every time the Sox and Rays have at it (which is often). It’s like a pushing contest between a wealthy man and a destitute person. The wealthy man had best avoid such confrontations, because only the wealthy man has something to lose (in a civil suit). When the Sox/Ray scuffling commences, I think, “What good can come of this for us?”, and “What the hell do the Rays care?”

    As a Sox fan, I hope the Yankees end up on the Rays’ “enemies list.” Maybe they’ll leave the Sox alone.

  11. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 8:47 am

    Brian, you think Joba hit the next guy in the ankle? Huh? If the guy got hit in the butt, I might agree with you. Why hit him in the foot/ankle?

    I agree the rays have nothing to lose by starting something. They don’t have a chance to make the playoffs, so whoever the Yankee player is who made that quote is right. What does the guy on the rays have to lose? He would only earn respect in his clubhouse by going after the big bad Yankees.

  12. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 8:50 am

    Brian how about all the times the soxs hit Yankees, do you have any problems with that. I know Jeter hangs over the plate, but he seems to have a big bullseye when he faces the soxs. Didn’t you find it odd a few years back when Jeter and Sori were both hit literally in the same place?

    Maybe things will change since sleepy joe is gone, the new Joe won’t stand for his players being used as target practice.

  13. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 8:57 am

    Anyone know if tonights game will be on anywhere?

  14. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 8:59 am

    Jennifer …. very next pitch (after monster HR), threw slightly behind the guy, and has a clear history after the Youkilis beanballs. Absolutely deliberate (and in ST).

    I’d never defend Pedro or Arroyo when they’d throw at people (especially in reaction to a well-hit ball). I know it when I see it. Joba threw at the Twin hitter, he did it because of the long homerun, and he’s starting to get a reputation. That might conflict with your starry view of the wunderkind, but it’s reality.

    He’s had a lot of success, even more adulation, and he’s not used to dealing with failure. AS I said before, Girardi or Yankee veterans should reset his compass.

  15. Dee March 12th, 2008 at 9:03 am

    Pettitte is a superstar and the Rays are, well, the Rays (I don’t care what anyone says about this being their big year, it’s all relative). Why risk getting Andy or our other players hurt now? Plus Girardi already said rough plays are not cool in ST, he can’t eat his own words now during ST.

    I say do it when it counts during the regular season. At the last game when we face the Rays, get Farnsy out there to pitch a 100mph to Carl Crawford’s ribs after we have kicked their behinds 16-2 in the 18-game series.

  16. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 9:04 am

    Wrong pitching matchups for payback today. Both Farnsworth and Bruney, the guys who should do it, pitched yesterday.

    Let it go for today and wait until those guys work another Rays game. Then, you drill somebody. Preferably Crawford because he’s their best player and that’s how its done.

    After the predictable Rays whining, Crawford will then tell his manager to cut the crap since its the players, not the manager, who will be the targets for payback.

    March is not the time to play “blood and guts” baseball.

    The Rays started it and at some point, the Yankees will finish it.

    It doesn’t matter what “messages” Maddon wants to teach his team. Its not the way you play in March.

    Its why you don’t see guys taking out shortstops on DP’s in ST.

    There is a certain way to play the game in March. What happened Saturday was not right.

    When somebody like Yogi Berra, who played a “few” games behind the plate, says he was never rolled in spring training, you take notice.

    Zim? Look, he hates the Yankees at this point and he works for the Rays. What he has to say is irrelevent.

    There will be payback. The question is when?

    I’d wait and let them think about it for now.

  17. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 9:06 am

    So he got hit in the foot and you call that throwing behind him?

    Joba hits someone once and it is a reputation? Than what is your name for Pedro?

  18. NY fan March 12th, 2008 at 9:16 am

    Did anyone see A-rod’s homer yeaterday? BOMB STATUS. Wang pitched well yesterday and is expected to get the nod for opening day.

  19. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 9:17 am

    fyi

    Pedro has hit 131 batters in a 16 year career 2373 innings
    Mussina has hit 52 in a 17 year career 3362 innings

  20. Jeff NJ March 12th, 2008 at 9:18 am

    Uck, I hate to agree with a Red Socker but it was a bit unusual that Joba hit the next guy right after a HR. I trust that Joba’s stuff is good enough that every time he throws it, it goes where he wants it. Thus he was also trying to send fat head Yuk a message by making him uncomfortable.

    However, the Yankees definitely have been taking their share of bs in recent years, last year they finally started fighting back. It is important that the Rays and the rest of baseball know the Yankees are not to be messed with, and today is the day to send that message.

  21. Patrick March 12th, 2008 at 9:21 am

    Brian isn’t the more likely scenario that Joba just had bad command against the twins? He grooved a pitch that got smacked out of the park then missed again and hit the guy. He also walked several batters that day if I’m not mistaken, he was all over the place.

  22. Dee March 12th, 2008 at 9:23 am

    OT –
    I caught a bit of Mike and Chris interviewing Jeter last night. Those two did what they do best: asking someone a question and then proceed to keep interrupting him and not let him answer. I know they are still relevant (barely) only because they get good guests to go on their show, but why does anyone still go on just to get talked over by nonsense is beyond me.

  23. Jim Clark March 12th, 2008 at 9:28 am

    The late Bob Broeg would sometimes write about a beanball war the first place Brooklyn Dodgers had with the lowly Boston Braves in the summer of ’42. Afterwards Braves manager Charles Dillon Stengel (was he the “middle age perfesser’ then?) made a comment about if you are worried about a lousy team like mine hurting you, then you got problems. And Brooklyn better look out because the Cardinals are gathering steam. Sure enough the Cardinals caught the Dodgers in one of baseball’s great comebacks.
    In other words the Yankees should do anything stupid, especially in spring training.
    They play the Rays too often to risk an injury over a murky play.

  24. Mark Alan March 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am

    A handshake between Girardi and Zim? Yeah. Where are the Mets playing today? Perhaps we can get Pedro to moderate something.

  25. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am

    Patrick & Jennifer – You’re both engaging in the plausible deniability defense of Joba. That’s why I brought up Arroyo and Pedro ….. pitches were always “getting away.” Yeah, right!

    It’s also why I brought up the Joba/Youkilis incident (remember, TWO consecutive beanballs). Joba has a small ML sample, but the Youkilis fiasco shows something about his makeup (for better or worse). The fact is, he has already transparently thrown at a hitter (and I’m not sure why). The fact is, Joba threw at the Twin hitter a few days ago. And it made him look petty, because it was retaliation for a ST HR.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, ….. Joba threw at the guy. I’m not saying he should have his right hand severed, but it wasn’t appropriate for the time and situation. And that’s a fact.

  26. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 9:44 am

    Jennifer – re: your 8:50 post …. I’m trying to be balanced here. I agree that the Sox have hit the Yankees’ hitters with some regularity over the years, and often under dubious citcumstances. Pedro was a headhunter. I often thought that he was acting like a diva, and seriously endangering opposition batters.

    Re: Jeter. He dives in, he’s a big man, he doesn’t get out of the way very well. And you have to pitch him on his hands to force him to “fist” the ball. In other words, his style lends itself to getting hit. But most of the time ARod gets hit, I think it just because the Sox don’t like him. With Jeter, it’s “nothing personal,” just pitching inside (and there’s a difference).

  27. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 9:45 am

    omg he has hit 2 people in his major league career.
    1 in st 1 last year. You know what that one last year would avg out to over the course of a season 3!!

    Did you see Pedro hit 3 times as many people as someone like Mussina in 1000 less innings!!

  28. The J Train March 12th, 2008 at 9:45 am

    Brian, are you serious? Joba’s control was very bad that game..there is no way that he threw at that twins hitter on purpose. And the Kevin Youcouldlickthis thing, come on, if Joba wanted to hit him in the head, he would have…its not hard to miss that melon, its the size of Jupiter.

  29. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 9:50 am

    j train :lol:

    Ortiz also hangs over the plate, you know how many times he’s been hit? 23 in 11 seasons, everyone is just afraid to throw at him.

  30. Bronx Born March 12th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    Brian, Brian, Brian,

    You come here and post on our board and serve your platitudes. It’s okay that sox pitchers throw at A-Rod because they “don’t like him.” You berate Jaba as being a wild cannon. It makes me wonder about you a bit with all your “fairness” and “objectivity”. Do you post this stuff on sox blogs? Or do you only come down to the Bronx?

  31. raymagnetic â„¢ March 12th, 2008 at 9:54 am

    “But most of the time ARod gets hit, I think it just because the Sox don’t like him. With Jeter, it’s “nothing personal,” just pitching inside (and there’s a difference).”

    I just love how you can tell when someone intentionally throws at a player. When Jeter get’s hit, it’s Jeter’s fault and it’s nothing personal and no intent from the Sox pitchers. With Joba it’s YOU KNOW it was on purpose.

    Brian, oh mighty mind reader, can you tell me what I’m thinking about you right now?

  32. Clay Bellinger March 12th, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Dice-K hit 4 Yankees in 4 games last year. 3 times Arod was hit, and Jeter was hit once.

  33. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 9:57 am

    Brian – “very next pitch (after monster HR), threw slightly behind the guy”

    could it possibly be that he was a little off in an early spring training game? those 2 pitches in a row may indicate that. that arguement can go either way.

  34. The J Train March 12th, 2008 at 9:58 am

    where do you guys get those smiley faces from?

  35. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 9:59 am

    “Pedro has hit 131 batters in a 16 year career 2373 innings
    Mussina has hit 52 in a 17 year career 3362 innings”

    holy s#*$@(!!!

  36. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    J Train, we’re just happy… after all, baseball season is starting soon :D

  37. Patrick March 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am

    The last five posts say it better than I could have, Brian you are being a bit biased.

  38. Yazman March 12th, 2008 at 10:04 am

    Brian should correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think he is defending Pedro or the hitting of Arod (though he is excusing Jeter’s HBPs as largely unintentional).

    In fact I think he brought up Pedro and Arod to demonstrate that he’s trying to be unbiased — i.e., that he’s against beanballs all around.

  39. Old Goat March 12th, 2008 at 10:07 am

    The Red Sox pitchers hit batters a lot more than any other team. Yankee pitchers come in league average with pitchers hitting batters.

    When you see a disparity like that, there are only two possible reasons. Either that team has lousy pitchers, or that team purposely goes after batters.

    Brian, how is it a beanball when the ball never even touched that hugh ugly head?

  40. Drew March 12th, 2008 at 10:11 am

    Pettitte’s been scratched today with irritation in his forearm.

  41. JMO March 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    It wasn’t a dirty play? What the hell was the guy doing standing over Cervelli for a few seconds after the collision? Was he wishing Cervelli well?

    None of this should surprise any of you…Maddon learned the the trade under Mike Scoscia: The guy who after Brendan Donnelly is caught red handed doctoring the ball, 46 year old Scoscia tries to fight with 66 year-old Frank Robinson…what a profile in courage.

  42. Cajun Yankee March 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    Baja – “Let Billy Crystal handle it.”

    That’s a good idea. Make him earn that fat paycheck he’s getting.

    Take one for the team. :)

    If any retaliation is going to come, at least save it for another day, when it counts.

    It will be interesting to see how this Joe handles things like hit batters and dirty plays against the Yankees. I don’t think he’s going to sit there and sip on his green tea and keep taking it.

    Geaux Yankees!

  43. Rishi March 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am

    Something to worry about???

    Pettitte scratched
    Posted by Lisa Kennelly March 12, 2008 9:45AM
    Andy Pettitte has been scratched from his start today with minor irritation in his left forearm muscle, Joe Girardi just informed us.

    “It’s nothing serious,” Girardi said. “He’s mad at us.”

    Pettitte will take today off and is expected to throw his regular bullpen in 2 days.

    Pettitte described it as “tendonitis”, a tightness on the outside of his elbow.

  44. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:13 am

    “is expected to get the nod for opening day.”

    He’s been expected to get the nod for opening day for a couple weeks now.

    As for hitting dudes, Joba’s the other day seemed much more likely a product of poor control and overthrowing a pitch as a result of being pissed at himself for giving up a home run. The Youk pitches…yeah, they were retaliation, but Youk was SEVERELY over-reacting to how close they were. Each one was feet from him. Besides…in context, Red Sox pitchers have been hitting Yankees for years and Joe always took the moral high road. You don’t want to get hit, Youk? Then tell your pitchers to lay off ARod.

  45. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 10:14 am

    Do they think it is anything serious? Or just “normal” spring training soreness?

  46. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:14 am

    “is expected to get the nod for opening day.”

    If this doesn’t happen, then it’s time to start worrying a little.

  47. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:15 am

    “Do they think it is anything serious? Or just “normal” spring training soreness?”

    Pretty sure Girardi’s quote a couple posts up says it all.

    I suspect the worst outcome here will be that McLovin will come back and make a bunch of stupid HGH jokes.

  48. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 10:16 am

    Beating a dead horse here: (1) I’m not defending throwing at ARod; I’m acknowledging that they throw at him “because they don’t like him.” I didn’t say that’s right. (2) The Youkilis incident is instructive. It shows that Joba will throw at people with no, or minimal, provocation. If it hadn’t been for the Youkilis beanballs, I’d have given Joba a pass vs. the Twins.

    This isn’t about “mindreading.” You evaluate the pitcher’s command, the game situation, any previous history, and the pitcher’s track record. Then you make an informed judgment. I have already totally acknowledged the beanball antics of Pedro and Arroyo. When I see Joba do the same thing, I come to the same conclusion.

    Yankee fans are constantly complaining that their pitchers don’t throw at opposing hitters (e.g. Ortiz). Maybe that why you don’t know a beanball when you see it?

    Why not embrace it? When Clemens came on board last year, there were handstands over the arrival of The Great Enforcer. I’m simply suggesting that Joba is tending in that direction.

  49. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    oops – “tending” = “trending”

  50. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    where has he had problems with his elbow in the past? Is this a different place?

  51. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am

    hope andy is okay!

    and i think the cervelli retaliation should come between the minor league teams, if anything. after all, this is spring training and nobody needs to get hurt.

  52. The J Train March 12th, 2008 at 10:18 am

    in 1999 when I was playing in Greensboro, I was brought into a game we were getting blown out (mop up duty), the score was 14-3 in the 5th inning. I came in with the bases loaded and 1 out. The first batter I faced I got to fly out to left field…the runner on third tagged up. This didnt make me, my teammates or my coaches happy. I knew what I had to do. The next batter, I hit in the thigh, I was ejected. My control was never the best (hence why I never made it past low A ball), but everyone knew I did it on purpose given the situation at hand. That wasnt the first time I intentionally threw at somebody, but there were many other times that it wasnt intentional.

    My point is that pitchers do throw at batters on purpose, but more often than not, its not intentional. I dont see how anyone can say Joba is a head hunter given the small sample and the scenarios in which he has hit batters/thrown at batters. With Joba, the pitches just got away from him, to suggest otherwise is just silly.

  53. Bill Porter March 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    “If you think I’m running out there during a spring training game and getting my shoulder hurt by some fired-up kid on their team, you’re crazy.”

    Had to be Mussina, it is dismissive and he’s right.

  54. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    A guy with 2 HBP’s in his career in “tending in that direction”?

    Really Brian, you passive aggressive nonsense here is getting old.

    Now, you are going to try and sell us that Joba Chamberlain is trending toward being a headhunter?

    Typical Red Sox nonsense couched in a “I’m just trying to talk baseball” tone.

  55. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    “You evaluate the pitcher’s command,”

    If you’d been watching that game, you’d know that his command was simply not there. It was just awful.

    Never ascribe to malice what can be explained logically by other means.

    Joba had bad control.
    Joba gave up a homer.

    What’s more likely? He’s mad and takes it out on the next hitter? Or, he’s mad at himself and overthrows his next pitch, making it even more wild?

    He threw at Youk because y’all throw at us. It’s a very different situation.

  56. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am

    No provication? Youk is a whiny baby. A strike down hte middle that he doesn’t swing at he cries about getting called out.

    Track record, since when is one time a track record?

  57. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:21 am

    As far as Andy is concerned, the Yankees are probably just erring on the side of caution.

    No sense pushing it if he is a little sore.

    Hopefully, its something that clears up in a few days.

    All pitchers go through a “dead arm” period in ST. Looks like Andy’s is hitting him right now.

  58. raymagnetic â„¢ March 12th, 2008 at 10:22 am

    “This isn’t about “mindreading.” You evaluate the pitcher’s command, the game situation, any previous history, and the pitcher’s track record. Then you make an informed judgment. I have already totally acknowledged the beanball antics of Pedro and Arroyo. When I see Joba do the same thing, I come to the same conclusion.”

    For you to definitely say that the Sox pitchers don’t throw on Jeter on purpose but Joba throws at opposing hitters on purpose is indeed mind reading.

    Unless you can tell what a pitcher is thinking you have no idea whether a pitch is malicious or not.

  59. Clay Bellinger March 12th, 2008 at 10:24 am

    Funny how Pedro doesn’t really hit anyone anymore…

  60. Ross March 12th, 2008 at 10:25 am

    Lets play guess the veteran who said that to Pete.

    I say it was Mike Mussina.

  61. OldYanksFan March 12th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Brian… If you were a rookie pitcher who threw 98 mph, and you wanted to ‘send a message’, would you throw a fastball at a players head? TWO fastballs?

    How do you think a pitcher feels when one of his pitches hits a guy in the head, and the guy goes down? Pretty scared I would guess. How about if you were in your rookie year?

    It is one thing to hit a guy in the thigh. I don’t approve of beanballs, but I understand there is historical presidence. But intentionally hitting someone in the HEAD with a fastball is WAY out of line.

    Joba’s pitches to Youk were not at chin level but well over his head. If Joba’s control was good and he hits a guy on the body then I can believe it was intentional. But 2 fastballs to the head, in a row?

    Sorry. I can’t see it. Its not only dangerous to the batter but the pitcher too. No young kid wants to seriously hurt a player. That is not easy to live with and could impact his future.

  62. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    Clay- I thought that is funny too!! Well he also isn’t on the mound very much.

    I agree, espically since he was dismissive. Mike doesn’t have time for that nonsense.

  63. The J Train March 12th, 2008 at 10:26 am

    thats because pedro doesnt really get on the mound anymore…that guy aged faster than a white woman after 30.

  64. mel March 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    lol @ SJ44. “Let’s talk baseball”

  65. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am

    “Funny how Pedro doesn’t really hit anyone anymore…”

    Well, he also doesn’t really pitch much anymore ;-)

    “I say it was Mike Mussina.”

    I could even see it being Damon. Some vet who doesn’t censor himself that much. Maybe Farnsworth, if he’s getting more level headed in his old age.

  66. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:29 am

    C’mon Ray get with the program.

    The Sox never throw at Derek Jeter. He just seems to get nailed because “pitches got away”.

    I guess when Pedro sent both Jeter and Soriano to the hospital a few years ago with HBP, that was a coincidence.

    Or Dice-K, after the cameras showed Julian Tavarez telling him to pitch up and in to Jeter just had pitches “get away”.

    But, Joba is now the new headhunter in Red Sox Nation.

    Didn’t you get the memo? lol

    Two different situations comparing the Youkilis and ST incidents.

    Youkilis. He wasn’t throwing at him the first time the ball got away from him. When he saw Youkilis whine about it, he decided to throw the next pitch over his head to send a message. Pretty heady move for a rookie.

    If he wanted to hit Youkilis, he would have. He sent the message in a better way and won points in the locker room for it.

    The ST thing is a joke. Gary Throne and Rick Sutcliffe decide Joba was throwing at somebody and the next thing you know, its a “fact”.

    He was all over the place in that outing. He wasn’t throwing at anybody the other day.

    But, hey, if Red Sox Nation wants to make him Public Enemy Number One, its not going to faze Joba.

    He will just go about his business as he usually does.

  67. jennifer- Hip Hip Jorge March 12th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    No I think Farns would love to get out there and try to win some love from the fans.

  68. CB March 12th, 2008 at 10:30 am

    “Beating a dead horse here: (1) I’m not defending throwing at ARod; I’m acknowledging that they throw at him “because they don’t like him.” I didn’t say that’s right. (2) The Youkilis incident is instructive. It shows that Joba will throw at people with no, or minimal, provocation.”

    Yes, this is beating a dead horse.

    For you to somehow couch the Red Sox throwing at ARod with a bland statement designed to negate the issue of responsibility such as “I didn’t say that’s right.”

    So if you’re not saying it’s “right” what are you saying? Couching your argument in passive voice statement is very weak.

    And while somehow muddying the waters on ARod getting hit for you to go on and on about Joba is ridiculous.

    Did you watch the game? He had awful command THAT day. It was his first spring training game

    The Twins didn’t think he hit him on purpose – issue never came up.

    And Brian, did you happen to watch any of the Red Sox games when Pedro Martinez was pitching? What were your feelings about Pedro hitting guy after guy? Were you so moralistic abou that?

    How many times have the Sox hit Jeter? Is it intentional? Yes. Does Jeter hang over the plate? Yes.

    Just as Youklis does – Youklis where full body armor before he goes up to the plate for a reason.

    For you to somehow suggest that a pitcher whose thrown 24 innings of pro ball is a dirty pitcher or a head hunter is just ridiculous.

  69. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    i think after arroyo and pedro, brian is itching to point finger.

    let’s see how joba’s carreer pans out first. keep your finger away until mid-season…

  70. saucY March 12th, 2008 at 10:31 am

    point *his* finger

  71. Clay Bellinger March 12th, 2008 at 10:32 am

    It couldn’t have been Mussina because even if it wasn’t a spring training game, Moose isn’t going to be anywhere near a brawl.

    Also, Joba wasn’t trying to hit Youk, just wanted to send a message. There is nothing wrong with that. Even as a Yankee fan I can see that 2 balls like that just dont get away.

  72. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:34 am

    BTW, for those interested, there is an excellent story in the Daily News today by John Harper re: Andrew Brackman.

    Excellent quotes from Cashman in the story.

    Well worth a read if you guys have a chance today.

  73. mel March 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    Let’s see:

    Starks said he’s heard no one agree with Girardi’s indignation. Girardi was just backing up his player who will be out for 8-10 weeks. He doesn’t give a spit what others around the Grapefruit League think.

    Olney said that scouts at the Tampa Bay Rays (did they know it would sound that lame when they dropped the Devil?) were surprised that a collision would happen at a ST game.

    Gammons has delivered a “message” from the baseball gods that Joba’s a head hunter. So it must be true. We should definitely release Joba, we can’t have that kind of guy on our team. I don’t think Boston would want to touch him because he’s a headhunter and it would offend their sensibilities as well.

  74. Cajun Yankee March 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    I wonder how different some reactions might be if it was Posada and not Cervelli that got hurt??? Hmmmm….

    Anyway, the season can’t start soon enough.
    I’m ready to see some games that count.

    Geaux Yankees!

  75. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    SJ 44 – I’ve seen Ryne Duren pitch, and I’ve seen Mike Mussina pitch. I know the difference between someone with good control and someone who is all over the place. (Although Duren’s first warmup pitch to the backstop was orchestrated).

    I’ve also watched countless young pitchers develop. I can count on one hand the amount of times that a young pitcher at his stage of development has thrown consecutive pitches over a batter’s head.

    You may recall that Grdenshire saw fit to eyeball Joba while tending after his injured player. I’m not trying to blow this out of proportion, but he threw at the guy because he was pissed. In Spring Training. Period.

  76. Bronx Born March 12th, 2008 at 10:35 am

    Dang I wanted to see Andy pitch today. Who is filling in?

    SJ, totally agree about the way Brian comes on as Mr. Fair Baseball and then throws his pitches high and tight.

  77. Patrick March 12th, 2008 at 10:39 am

    Brian, you are wrong. Period.

  78. DonVitoOfDaBronx March 12th, 2008 at 10:39 am

    Red Sox Fans opinions = worthless

  79. wsr March 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Brian,
    You’re using an incident in which Joba didn’t hit someone to prove that he will hit people with little or no provocation? If anything, it would prove that he’ll scare the bejesus out of the batter, but not hit them. I don’t have a problem with the Youk thing, and I think a lot of why it gets so much play is that the Yankees hadn’t done anything like that in a long while. We were the skinny kid in the school yard with the glasses studying at recess. We got hit pretty much at will. I’m glad Joba did it. I wouldn’t be if he had ACTUALLY hit Youk in the head. Who knows, Youks head is big enough it might have it’s own gravitational pull, which would explain why he was so scared of a ball that was about a foot above his head.

    JoeG, in my opinion, needs to do something here. If he has one of the fringe guys (Bruney, or another hard thrower) hit a Ray (I wouldn’t have a problem if it was one of their minor league guys) in the ribs, then I think it sends a message to the rest of the league. I think if JG does something here, we get thrown at dramatically less than we have in the past 5 years or so.

  80. ItalianGreco March 12th, 2008 at 10:43 am

    Yep, I’m convinced….Sux fans are morons!

  81. whozat March 12th, 2008 at 10:44 am

    “amount of times that a young pitcher at his stage of development has thrown consecutive pitches over a batter’s head.”

    No one’s saying those were both unintentional.

    You’re trying to alter the parameters of the argument so that you can be right. Stop. We’re talking about Joba and the Twins. That, it’s pretty clear to people who watched the game, was unintentional.

    The Youk stuff is totally unrelated. The situations could not be more different.

  82. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:44 am

    Brian,

    If you think Joba Chamberlain is a headhunter, nothing anybody will say to you in this blog is going to change your mind.

    Doesn’t make it right but, its just the way it is.

    The kid isn’t a headhunter and the control he has demonstrated shows it.

    I hope hitters around the game feel about him as you do. It will make him even more effective this year.

  83. mel March 12th, 2008 at 10:45 am

    This from Verducci:

    1. Felix Hernandez, Mariners. He’s younger than Yankees phenom Joba Chamberlain, but he already has made 73 big-league starts — more than Justin Verlander. Hernandez, 21, is still learning how to pitch, which is scary for a kid with a career 3-to-1 strikeout-to-walk rate.

    Is Felix significantly younger than Joba? Did Felix spend time in college? Benign comment for sure, but it still irritates me.

  84. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:46 am

    Unfortunately, at least for today, the pitching matchups don’t lend itself for payback.

    Bruney and Farnsworth both worked yesterday.

    I say, let it pass for today and wait for another time for payback.

    Then, when folks least expect it, you do it.

  85. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    He didn’t mean anything negative with the comment Mel. Just pointing out how young Felix.

    Amazing really, when you think about it. A kid that young with already 73 big league starts under his belt.

  86. CB March 12th, 2008 at 10:48 am

    I didn’t get to hear that interview with Cash on WFAN yesterday until the evening.

    Hard to believe that level of ignorance.

    I’m always impressed by how calm and rational Cashman stays in the face of the irrationality of those two.

    Russo seriously implied that Joba shouldn’t be a starter because he lost a game to Manhattan college while he was pitching for Nebraska?

    What universe is this? And he ignores the fact that during that NCAA Joba was arguably the most dominant pitcher in the tourney.

    Then they were saying that his college track record doesn’t mean anything in terms of projecting him as a starter in majors? What is their system of projecting prospects?

    They know nothing about young players at all – they are much worse on this subject than about baseball as a whole.

    And the level of arrogance is amazing – they are seriously telling Cashman who has followed and scouted Joba’s entire career that they somehow have more insight into his development – whether its bull pen vs. starter or workload – than he does?

    There no basis for reality at all. It’s easy to make fun of “stat geeks” but when you listen to those two on WFAN you seriously just want to send them a link to baseball-reference and copy of baseball prospectus.

    Russo was actually citing Sandy Koufax to support his argument that pitchers back in the 1950′s and 1960′s threw tons of innings and it never hurt their arms.

    There was no basis in reality – for anything they said during the interview.

    That said, I was thrilled to hear how adamant Cashman was about Joba starting. I’ve been concerned that if he starts in the pen the team will come to rely on him, the media and fans will jump on board and they’d wind up leaving him there for the season.

    His fastball and slider are 80 pitches. Some scouts rate his curveball as a 70. His change up is at least a big league average pitch right now.

    How is this hard to understand?

  87. mel March 12th, 2008 at 10:49 am

    SJ,

    I don’t think that Girardi would mandate payback in ST. Wasn’t his point that the goal is to not hurt anyone is ST? 19 regular season games present lots of opportunities. The Yankees can use that little extra nugget of motivation like Flash said.

    I agree, let ‘em wait. Paranoia is a crippling thing.

  88. mel March 12th, 2008 at 10:52 am

    SJ,

    I know that there’s two diffent comparisons in the same sentence, but I was under the impression that Joba was 21. 22 at the most.

    But our kids names are going to be thrown out their because they’re “Next” and got “it”.

    haha. Good stuff for the Three Amigos.

  89. longtime March 12th, 2008 at 10:53 am

    Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale were considered headhunters, how did that work out for them. I don’t care if anyone considers Joba a headhunter i like his “tude”

  90. CB March 12th, 2008 at 10:58 am

    “Is Felix significantly younger than Joba? Did Felix spend time in college? Benign comment for sure, but it still irritates me.”

    Mel – Felix is around half a year younger than joba.

    He was signed in the internatial market – when he was signed he was thought to be one of the most talented latin american prospects anyone had seen in years.

    He zoomed through the minors and quickly became thought of as one of the 2 or 3 best prospects in the game. Debuted for the mariners when he was 19.

    His talent is immense. His stuff is phenomenal. I thought he’d be the pitcher of his generation if he stayed healthy (which there have been some scares on).

    For Joba to even be in the conversation with Hernandez about young pitchers and best stuff speaks highly of Joba. I didn’t think there’d be a very high likelihood that another pitcher would come along anytime soon that could match his talent and stuff.

    Joba does. He also has better command, IMO.

    Hernandez has historically great talent so Verducci’s comment is nothing to make much of.

  91. SJ44 March 12th, 2008 at 11:00 am

    CB,

    Its hard to understand when you don’t open yourself up to new concepts and ideas. That’s their problem and its why they fail when discussing today’s baseball.

    Hey, these are the same guys, led by Francesa, who said (in their devine wisdom) a certain NY QB would “never win” because he “doesn’t have what it takes” to be a winner.

    Those are the Francesa quotes, supported by Russo, in describing Eli Manning. How did that turn out?

    I’m not much into statistical analysis. I believe it has a major part in the game. I don’t believe its the be all, end all of every argument because quoting stats without context is a mindless exercise.

    That said, and because I have a nephew who has a future in professional baseball (if all goes well), I have read a lot of stuff in the past off-season re: statistical analysis and, in particular, pitching usage.

    After all the research I have read, I really do subscribe to Tom Verducci’s rule of 30 inning increases per season for young arms.

    The data is too convincing not to believe.

    The Yankees are developing Joba and the rest of their young arms the right way. Now, its never going to be fast enough for the impatient (of whom Russo and Francesa cater to) and the “I hate Cashman” crowds.

    However, purely from a baseball development perspective, he is going about it the right way.

    Hopefully, he will be around when the fruits of his labor are realized because its gonna happen.

    There are too many outstanding young arms in the Yankee organization not to make a significant impact in the next few years.

  92. Brian (Red Sox Fan) March 12th, 2008 at 11:02 am

    Truce – Time will tell re: Joba. I think we’re agreed that Joba has excellent control, so we’ll see if he starts to have incidents similar to those involving Youkilis and the Twins.

    SJ has one thing right …. Joba is better off if my evaluation of his pitching inclinations is correct. Keep the batters guessing ……

    P.S. For the FINAL time …. I am NOT defending Pedro and Arroyo. Most of their Hit Batsmen were unjustified.

  93. Yazman March 12th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    Brian, I think Joba did send a message last year. But sending a message is a very different thing from beaning someone.

    I think it’s way too early to label Joba.

  94. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 11:04 am

    SJ the attention to pitching by Cash/Opp is making me giddy

    to think yr. 1 it was Hughes/Garcia/Marquez drafted 04′

    yr. 2 it was Horne/Cox drafted 05′

    yr. 3 McCutchen/McCallister/Betances/Melancon/Kennedy/Joba/Pope drafted 06′

    acquired Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, Ross Ohlendorfh

    2007 Yankees draft Pope/Brackman/Berreda

    2007 Hughes/Joba/Kennedy/Ohlendorfh impact the season

    NOW WE SEE A PLAN :D

  95. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 11:06 am

    *disreguard Pope in 06′ copy and paste mixed me up I meant McCallister*

  96. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 11:08 am

    imagine cap $$$ coming off next season on expiring contracts and the big guy Sabathia is a FA to be, oh god the rotation would be sick 8O

  97. CB March 12th, 2008 at 11:10 am

    “P.S. For the FINAL time …. I am NOT defending Pedro and Arroyo. Most of their Hit Batsmen were unjustified.”

    No, but by never mentioning them, not discussing them directly , and making such an issue of Joba it does sound like you are implicitly condoning what they are doing.

    “Not defending” in that context sounds like you’re more or less happy to let by gones be by gones with those two.

    I never heard any red sox fans take exception to pedro’s headhunting when he was in town. Afterwards – sure then it’s easy. Same thing with Arroyo.

    If you want to come on this blog and discuss baseball – fine. Love to have you. I’d be really interested in hearing your take on what’s going on with Buchholz for instance – is he really going to get sent back to AAA? That’s baseball.

    But when you come here just to insult players on the yankees its just really boring and you sound like you are passive aggressively trying to troll on this board. Which you are always adamantly saying that you’re not.

  98. Yazman March 12th, 2008 at 11:11 am

    It’s interesting to review HBP stats.

    15 Bosox have led the league in HBPs, including 3 this decade.

    7 Yankees have, most recenlty Tommy Byrne in 1950.

    Among active leaders, 3 of the top 5 got most of ther HBPs while with Boston. You have to go down to #51 to find someone who (I think) got them mostly with the Yanks.(Mussina).

    http://www.baseball-reference......tive.shtml

  99. Yazman March 12th, 2008 at 11:16 am

    So Pedro hits 0.44 batters per 9 IP. Mussina hits 0.05. Joba (in all of 24 innings) is at 0.38 because he hit one guy. Again, way too early to label Joba.

  100. mel March 12th, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Regardless of what Joba’s reputation, tendencies, or inclinations are Red Sox fans would welcome him with open arms. That’s what’s irritating. What’s the saying? “What’s bad for the goose is good for the gander”?

    We don’t like Beckett because he’s a Sox, but we’d welcome him in the Bronx as a Yankee. I just doubt that many from here would go to Sox sites and talk about Beckett.

    No offense, Brian. It’s just that Joba’s like a son to us here. haha.

  101. CB March 12th, 2008 at 11:19 am

    SJ,

    That article on Brackman in the News was terrific. Thank’s for the heads up.

    I still treat any guy with TJ with doubt but if Brackman comes even close to fulfilling his potential…..

    How good would this pitching staff be?

    The idea of having two pitchers on the same staff with an 80 fastball and an 80 secondary pitch is frightening.

    How many staffs even have one guy like that?

    What you hear about brackman’s knuckle curve raining down on hitters from that 6’10 frame and long arms sounds devastating.

    His injuries (the hip as a sophomore in addition to the elbow) and lack of experience concern me. 76 innings in 3 years of college ball aren’t a lot. Add to that TJ and rehab.

    But the potential is fantastic. Absolutely the right move to draft him.

    And this year they have their first round pick and a supplemental pick for Vizcaino.

    Did you ever think you’d see the day when the daily news was doing a column about a yankee first round draft pick? Never mind one that’s hurt and out for the year and never thrown a professional inning.

    That speaks volumes for where this franchise is and how Cash has gotten NY on board with his plan.

  102. Jax March 12th, 2008 at 11:20 am

    To bad Felix Hernandez chose the Mariners over the Yankees. Despite being offered more money by the Yankees.

  103. Sara March 12th, 2008 at 11:22 am

    Anyone hear about Petitte? he is being scratched from his start for soreness in his elbow!

  104. Peter Abraham March 12th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    Sara:

    Really? Check the blog at 11:04 a.m. :-)

  105. mel March 12th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    Sara,

    Yes, Girardi said he felt it afte his last bullpen session. Andy’s mad about being scratched so that’s a good sign.

  106. Clay Bellinger March 12th, 2008 at 11:25 am

    I don’t think i would welcome Beckett with open arms. Any Red Sock for that matter.

  107. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    Sara it’s not that serious he’s making the next start, this happens to SP his age, he hasn’t thrown a ball for 3 – 4 mths. prior to camp right now it’s just presussion.

  108. Sara March 12th, 2008 at 11:26 am

    sorry Pete! i am a little delayed here! sounds like something very minor which is good to hear!

  109. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 11:28 am

    precussion *dammit*

  110. Sara March 12th, 2008 at 11:29 am

    got ya brandon. didn’t think it was serious but with andy and his arm issues in the past you never know! i just want to see 5 healthy starters out there come the begining of the season, not like last year!

  111. Patrick March 12th, 2008 at 11:39 am

    precussion is not a word.. percussion is, as in drums. I think you are going for precaution

  112. Brandon (Proud supporter of "Alex being Alex" ) (I slay the Anti) March 12th, 2008 at 12:07 pm

    dammit ! all those Knicks games in caption for nothing

    I know Pat my brain freeze today is effecting me. :(

  113. Glenn March 12th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Attention Brian:

    Please be advised that your Red Sox mean as much to Joba Chamberlain as a fart in a hurricane. They are just one of 29 potential teams he can possibly face.
    Isn’t it time to get the key out of your back ? Are you that much obsessed with the New York Yankees ?

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