Misplaced loyalty on Opening Day
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- April
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Some fans in the crowd of 55,112 last night actually booed LaTroy Hawkins when he was introduced yesterday. His crime? Wearing No. 21.
People, let it go.
Paul O’Neill is a member of the Hall of Very Good. He was a fine Yankee and he tried real hard. But he hit .303 for the Yankees over nine seasons and made the All-Star team four times. That’s really good, but that is not retire-your-number good.
Beyond that, do you know that eight players wore No. 3 after Babe Ruth? Just because Hawkins is wearing 21 doesn’t mean anything. If the Yankees want to retire the number, they can at a later date.
Further, Hawkins is wearing 21 in honor of Roberto Clemente.
Like the Celtics, the Yankees got carried away with retiring numbers. They have retired 15 numbers already and eventually that list will also include 2 (Jeter), 42 (Rivera/Robinson), probably 6 (Torre), 20 (Posada) and maybe even 51 for Bernie.
This will never happen, but the Yankees need to set some standards. To have his number retired, a player should have spent 80 percent of his career with the Yankees and been elected to the Hall of Fame. Or at least won a major award (Cy Young, MVP, Rookie of the Year, World Series MVP) twice.
Hawkins is a good guy and a good teammate. He’s living in Manhattan and he is throwing himself into being a Yankee. Guys in the clubhouse, especially the young players, have praised him for his leadership.
But he got booed on Opening Day and that’s not right. Give the guy a break. You don’t honor Paul O’Neill by trying to bring down somebody else.
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on Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Good post Pete!
Couldn’t agree with you more, Peter!
well said Pete. Agree Completely
I agree. Oneill needs to address this situation at once!
“You don’t honor [one guy] by bringing down somebody else.”
Well said Peter.
The same applies to all the Joe G/Joe T comparisons.
I agree, but I don’t have the emotional attachment that some fans do. The club’s moved on and if you’re to believe him, so has Paulie.
Enjoying watching Bannister pitch a 2 hit shutout against the Tigers.
Steve (NY): Jim, what you just said about Brian Bannister just makes me think of Ian Kennedy, and I think Kennedy’s stuff and track record is definitely ahead of Bannister’s at this stage of his career. Is there any reason Kennedy can not be a good 3 other than the fact that he doesn’t have the measurables that everyone is obsessed with like velocity?
Jim Callis: (2:42 PM ET ) I agree with all of this. Kennedy’s stuff and track record is better, and I think he will be a good No. 3.
Great post Pete. That needed to be said.
Good post! As always.
So much for the scary tigers lineup.
Great post, Pete!
Thank you Peter! I hope the Yanks brass is reading.
Also, add #13 to your list of future retired numbers.
Agreed. Seems like a really good guy. Especially with the patterson demotion. I hate booing you own team, period. So stupid. We want you to perform better so we will show you negative support. Never got that.
Agree to disagree.
You needs to realize the only way fans can voice their unhappiness, and clearly be heard (as is an example by you writing about it)is by booing. . . I boo’d, I will not boo him in the future, just this once to show that I think the number should not be worn.
Totally agree Pete. Since spring training I have not heard anything but great things about Troy’s persona.
Thank you Pete. I agree 100%. Now if only you can get through to the other 47k knuckleheads out there. Paul O’Neill was my favorite player for years. Still one of my favorite Yankees ever. Love the guy. Loved his intensity. But the number is just a number. Hawkins wearing it doesn’t erase who Paullie was.
Mel – I feel like we are doing the same things today: I’m here, at the Jim Callis chat and watching on gameday (all while participating on a day-long conf call)...and i’m loving the royal’s game too…
Well said, Pete, and thanks for saying it. How sad to have something like that on such a perfect Opening Day.
Could not have said it better.
Back to the post before this. I am surprised that the Hall of Fame didnt want some of those uniforms for the Hall.
agreed pete.
I was at the game, if anyone booed I didn’t hear it. It wasn’t that many people.
Latroy CERTAINLY doesn’t deserve to be booed, but don’t knock Paulie; not even subtly. O’neil means a lot to the fans, we don’t research the record books when we pick our heroes. He was there for many big moments in the 90’s run.
Must have felt horrible to be booed in opening day.
How come hawkins, a perfectly honest guy gets booed, but a backstabber/roid user like pettitte gets cheered? its just wrong.
I agree, Pete. No one should be booed on Opening Day, and especially not someone who hasn’t even played for the team yet. Instead of booing, or cheering, just stay quiet.
Booing Hawkins makes no sense, certainly not before he throws a single pitch in the regular season and certainly not because he wants to honor a great player and a man who died trying to help the poor and needy.
Then again Yankee fans have a history of booing at odd times and for odd reasons. Recently we/they have tried to give A-Rod a nervous breakdown in his home park because he’s a bit of a phony. Lotsa love now, but give it time.
Years ago the people in the big park booed Maris for not being a real Yankee and for breaking Ruth’s record. They even booed Mantle because he wasn’t Joe D.
So Hawk if there is a silver lining it’s that you are actually in some damn fine company.
Nice post Pete….couldn’t agree more. Just let it go!
Amen Peter. Hawkins didn’t do anything wrong, and to this point has been a great presence. We’ll see what happens some night in the 7th inning if that changes it, but give the guy a break.
For the sake of discussion – which numbers should not have been retired?
#1 Billy Martin
#3 Babe Ruth •
#4 Lou Gehrig •
#5 Joe DiMaggio •
#7 Mickey Mantle •
#8 Bill Dickey •
#8 Yogi Berra •
#9 Roger Maris •
#10 Phil Rizzuto •
#15 Thurman Munson
#16 Whitey Ford •
#23 Don Mattingly •
#32 Elston Howard •
#37 Casey Stengel •
#44 Reggie Jackson •
#49 Ron Guidry
i say no to #44 for sure – I don’t hate Reggie but 5 years come now
PS I’d give Bernie the nod (right now) over Posada
Bernie has all but been forgotten – shame
Like I have said earlier as I heard last night Hawkins got the 2nd loudest boos after Farnsworth (again another stupid move by the fans).How do you boo your roster on day 1 as far as I am concerend everyone has a clean slate on opening day. I dont think you should boo your own players anyway unless they do something really out of bounds.
“Latroy CERTAINLY doesn’t deserve to be booed, but don’t knock Paulie; not even subtly”
where did Pete knock Paulie?
Thanks for that Pete, from a fan but infrequent poster. Unfortunately it is too late to un-do the mistakes—1, 9, 23, 32, 44, even possibly 16. But the team really needs to clamp down on the retired numbers, and there’s no way Paulie qualifies, as much as I loved him when he played. Look, the guys whose numbers I just mentioned were special players for one reason or another. But the Yankees have had a ton of special players and will have a ton more. I’d like it if, as some have suggested, some of these numbers could be put back into circulation at some point. Geez, if you read The Bronx is Burning, you have to ask yourself why Billy’s number is retired. Not to speak ill of the dead but Billy appears in retropect to have been a racist, womanizer and hopeless alcoholic in his personal life who was insubordinate to a fault and let his personal feelings for players get in the way of putting the best lineup on the field. I loved Billy when I was a kid, but a retired number? Roger Maris by all accounts was a great guy, but, like Billy and Ellie Howard and Thurman and Donnie, he’s not even a Hall of Famer. He had a great couple of years and set the HR record in an expansion year. Plaques in Monument Park? Sure. But not retired numbers. Of the current group, only Jeter rises to that level. I vote no on Torre only because his number is not associated with him like the others. He hardly ever even wore the uniform shirt. Give him a plaque. Hell, give him a monument if you want. But let us have one single digit number left.
“I boo’d, I will not boo him in the future, just this once to show that I think the number should not be worn.”
Interesting point. I wouldn’t have booed, but I hear you on having limited opportunities to be heard. Maybe instead, it should have been a “Paul-O-Neil” chant…
It’s somewhat of a tough spot for the Yankees, you do have to draw the line somewhere unless we want to see guys wearing 3-digit numbers in the future.
That said, I’d retire #21… In my opinion, the blood and guts Paulie gave for those WS championships earned him that. You do have to draw a line somewhere, I just feel he’s just inside that line.
good post Pete. the booing was an embarrassment.
almost as embarrassing as the fans basically scaring Morgan Ensberg into changing his number.
I hope he understood why he was being boo’ed..
I like Hawkins too, and I want him to feel welcome at Yankee stadium and in a Yankee uniform..
Hopefully this blows over and hes cheered when he takes the mound next.
Well, Rishi, I know you’re not doing this. I’m listening to a live webcast with the Lakers blogger. They also started up a Dodgers blog last year. So anyway, a Dodgers fan calls in and starts talking about Torre. How they won that game last night because they were agressive on the basepaths, and how Torre’s sending a message that they’re going to play the best players by starting Ethier. They’re talking about platooning.
So I’m giggling to myself because I guess old dogs can learn new tricks. But I think that Torre was handcuffed in a lot of ways. How’re you going to bench a Sheffield or Giambi when they’re making oodles of money? But it’s still funny. They’re talking about him like we’re talking about Girardi. So it’s all good. That was a trade that was good for both sides.
Yeah, Bernie was a great Yankee. If you’re a stathead, you might know that he completed his career with a higher Center Fielder JAWS than the average of those already enshrined. Retire that 51, for sure. Bernie was a beast in the late 90’s, and he could still field back then, too. His calm face toward the pitcher always reminded me of a Buddha at the plate.
Great post regarding Hawkins. Booing him is pretty stupid, especially considering that he wears the number in honor of Clemente.
Only number I have a problem with being retired is Guidry. I like the guy but still don’t think he deserved it. Also someone made a good point about Torre, he gets a plaque, but leave 6 free.
Could have done the same for Billy, but he was associated to #1 because he wore it when he played. I have no problem with #32 retired for Eli, because he was the first african american on the yankees, and he was a hell of a player too.
Reggie Jackson is a close call as well, as 5 years is just not much.
This is a good discussion though.
I agree. If he wants to wear the number in tribute to a great player and an even greater man, let him.
Sorry, meant to say they’re LA Times bloggers. They have the same access as the beat writers.
I wouldn’t retire O’Neill’s number either, but your criteria is silly. For my money, Don Mattingly is as deserving as anyone to have his number retired. Who cares that he only won 1 MVP and wont make the Hall of Fame. Donnie Baseball WAS the Yankees during his career and remains as beloved as any many to wear the pinstripes. If that’s not good enough for you, so be it.
“almost as embarrassing as the fans basically scaring Morgan Ensberg into changing his number.”
Do we know if that’s why he gave it up, or did he actually just give it up because Hawkins wanted it?
I forgot to include 10 and 49 in my list. Sorry Scooter and Gator, but with the Yankees the standard has to be ridiculously high.
No way Hawk deserved to be booed. He’s a good guy and if we want to win it all this year, we’re going to need him. Believe it or not, the two guys that got booed, Hawkins and Farnsworth will be very valuable in the 6th and 7th innings (and sometimes 8th) this year and we’re going to need both of them to pitch well.
Isn’t the point of retiring a number that the person was so great or special, nobody could live up to their performance? We remember those people forever.
In that sense, the Yankees did certainly go a little overboard. Only the very best should be retired:
Babe, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Yogi, Jeter, A-Rod?
Everybody else was a good if not great Yankee. But my personal standard is that fans of other teams should think they were great. Do you think fans of other teams (especially the relatively younger ones) know who Howard, Guidry or Scooter are?
I would agree with that – didn’t I read that Juan Pierre was back in the lineup (or maybe that was something I made up in my mind). And you are right about the Lakers/Dodger stuff – I think I would probably be fired if I did anymore extracurricular activities than i already do
They should have retird #21 after Dan Pasqua left… Remind me to boo O’neill next time i see him…
Tom,
Where did Peter Knock on O’neil?
I’m sorry Dennis from the Bx, I agree with most of what you’ve said, but “possibly even 16?!” Come on, now. Whitey Ford is a HOF pitcher, one of the best of his generation, would have won at least one more CY had the award been split between the two leagues at that point, and was a dominant postseason pitcher. He played all 16 seasons of his career with the Yankees, and you know his win total would be bumped substantially if he hadn’t spent ‘51-’52 fighting in Korea. I dont think there’s anything more he could have done to deserve having his number retired.
Tom,
Where did Peter Knock on O’neil?
Good post Pete.
Chris,
Morgan finally spoke up about it. He said that he was shocked & surprised about the reaction. He didn’t ask for it, it was assigned to him because they were so many people in camp that they were forced to use it. He basically wanted no part of it.
Do we know if that’s why he gave it up, or did he actually just give it up because Hawkins wanted it?
Ensberg said during Spring Training that he didn’t feel right wearing Paulie’s number. He heard it from the fans as well and decided to look for a new number. Since he couldn’t get #14 from Betemit, he took #11.
I don’t think you can ask if fans of other teams know who your players are…100 years from now how can you guarantee that fans of another team will know who Jeter was. It’s not possible – especially if you want to consider younger fans. I think it’s a combination of service time, accolades and the intangible “what you brought to the game”. I mean, how do you not retire 42 for Mariano (in addition to Jackie Robinson) – he was/is automatic…the definition of all those world series wins in the 1990s/2000…
But that’s just my opinion
AJ Burnett absent a curveball due to a fingernail problem? How are his other pitches going to look?
I have no problem with scooter, since he was a big part of those teams in the ‘40s and he is in the HOF. However Maris also is a little questionable. Its a great tribute to what he achieved in 1961, but again that deserves more of a plaque then a number retirement.
The numbers that are no doubters though are:
1 (I’m a Billy fan), 2(will be), 3, 4, 5, 7, 8(more so for Yogi), 10, (Munson is a tough call, maybe plaque only), 16, 23, 32, (Stengel would be a plaque also, but he did always wear the 37 in plain view), 42 (for Mo and jackie)
I’m on the fence for Bernie and Posada. Arod will most likely be retired for sure. I’m the biggest O’Neill fan in the world, and I probably wouldn’t retire it.
Pierre was in the lineup.
The more I think about this, Paulie doesn’t make the cut. If we have to sit here and debate over whether or not he was good enough in a Yankee uniform to retire his number, he must not have been. No-one disputed the Bulls retiring MJ’s #23, no-one will dispute the Yankees retiring #2 or 42 and probably 13, not to mention Cano’s 24 when he’s done with it..
i wish fatcessa would shut up about joba
and i love the way he says he’ll take this up with girardi.
JOBA DOUBLE FIST PUMP IT NEXT TIME
“Do we know if that’s why he gave it up, or did he actually just give it up because Hawkins wanted it?”
from here:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080331&content_id=2469353&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
“Morgan Ensberg felt so uncomfortable wearing No. 21 in Spring Training, shocked at the amount of heat he received, that he abandoned his exhibition digits in favor of No. 11.
...
For the Yankees, No. 21 was unofficially kept out of circulation after O’Neill’s retirement following the 2001 World Series. Ensberg was the first player to wear the number since O’Neill, finding the uniform waiting in his Legends Field locker.
“I think a lot of people come in and think you request a number,” Ensberg said. “That was certainly not the case with me. I showed up, and I was No. 21. I [was] a non-roster invitee. There’s not too much pull going on there.”
That may have been the case, but Ensberg said the perception and reception from Grapefruit League crowds was not particularly receptive to the idea of another No. 21 roaming the Yankees’ diamonds in Tampa, Fla.
“The feedback from the fans was: ‘That’s not your number.’ It was unbelievable,” Ensberg said. “The gist of it was that it was Paulie’s number, and I understood.” ”
Standing
Billy over Munson?
MikeEff… this is ridiculous I can’t believe I’m hearing this. Francessa STFU. Give me a break. What about KRod in Anaheim, or Paplebon? Give me a freaking break.
Look at the pictures from Paplebon’s save last night.
I was walking to my seats and had no idea why they were booing him. Morons.
King Fatcessa complaining about Joba? Give me a break. Let Joba be Joba
I agree Pete! I was there last night…the loudest boo’s came for Farnsworth! I kinda felt a little bad for him, for a second!
wow, hmmmm, that is ridiculous.
Papelmouse is a Red Sox they can have fun, Yankees can’t
OK Craig, I’ll give you Whitey. I was trying to be brutal but that was probably going to far.
i don’t need to hear fruitloops make any comments on the yanks either…
I was just touting Hawk’s leadership and his great attitude (including the Patterson story) to my better half just yesterday.
And then the stadium crowd debased itself by booing a solid guy.
Yuk.
Did we ever find out what happend to SJ i haven’t seen him on here in awhile and he makes the greatest comments?
Hate to say it but Francesa is right to some extent. I don’t mind a fist pump. Just not the spin and yelling he does. Again a little fist pump is fine, but looking at it again it was little overboard.
I think Ensberg was more surprised by the fact that the fans remembered and cared about Paulie wearing 21 than we was surprised/shocked in a bad way about the reaction. That was my take…I mean – if the fans didn’t care about their players/team – what, exactly, are they playing for.
i see detroit is down 0-4 to the royals in the 8th….
gotta love that
Rob SJ44 posted last night and earlier today about the booing of Hawkins (different thread)
Jax imo he should have jumped fist pumped it and thrown the glove in the ground while pointing to the sky
“Did we ever find out what happend to SJ i haven’t seen him on here in awhile and he makes the greatest comments?”
he was on last night
Rob – I think he was commenting earlier today. . .
chances of the Royals winning this game? and can i say i love the gameday real-time highlights…really a great added feature
Pete:
Great post, but turn spell check on, willya.
this business of not getting fired as being “the yankee way” is BS. getting fired up wins games and gets the crowd behind the team. all good.
Wonderful post by Peter. I was embarrassed to hear the boos and I bet Paul O’Neil didnt appreciate hearing them either.
There’s so much positive energy about this year’s team. As fans, it’s our job to keep that vibe going.Here’s hoping the ones that booed Hawkins hop on the bandwagon and come along for a fun ride.
Re: Joba.. He probably does go a bit too far, but most of us won’t mind it as much as we mind seeing K-Rod do the same thing. I hate that guy and his celebrations are probably as much the reason as the fact that he constantly shuts us down. The reality is, I could care less about his fist pumps or whatever he does after closing a game against the Red Sox, so it must not really offend me (us) as much as frustrate me because of why he’s doing it.
It’s awful that fans boo their own team’s players. Seriously? If you don’t like the guy, don’t applaud. When Farnsworth got booed last night I felt just as bad for him as I did Hawkins. How crappy must it feel to be booed publically by thousands of fans, and then they expect you to go out and strike out 3 batters in an inning.
It’s like that old saying… “The beatings will stop when the morale improves.”
Busy with work for another few days.
I posted on this issue earlier.
Its idiotic to boo Hawkins over this nonsense.
If Hawkins was a bad guy and folks were expressing displeasure, I could possibly understand it.
But, everything we have heard and seen has shown the guy to be a standup teammate to the nth degree.
Low class move by some Yankee fans last night.
Its that group of Yankee fans I absolutely hate.
They make the rest of the fan base look like fools.
If Hawkins gets in the game tonight, I hope the fans give him a big ovation. He has done nothing wrong.
“Jax imo he should have jumped fist pumped it and thrown the glove in the ground while pointing to the sky”
I’d prefer to see him do a cartwheel then a backflip and then do the rest of the things you said.
Pete, great post. I want to see Paul’s number retired, sure, but I’m not going to boo Hawkins for wearing it.
I think the boos will stop, though when we see just how badly we need the middle relief this year.
Unfortunately there are different types of Yankee fans. You’ve got the intelligent group like most of the people that post on this blog. Then you’ve got the idiots, mostly the Yankee fans that call into M&MD show. To me, its absurd that Farnsworth got booed and even more ridiculous that Hawkins got booed.
some caller from the bronx saying to fatcessa” who made you two the ambassadors from the yankees” of course they wont let the guy get a word in edgewise.
Didn’t Mariano say something to Joba last year about the fist pumping though? I wonder if the fact that he still does it causes any problems there….
frootloops calling out duncan with the spikes in ST…
they graciously give melky” a pass” for his curtain call.
why do i listen to them
?
People get too attached to symbols. The memory of a player you like isn’t welded to the number.
Did anyone post this yesterday? A Q&A with Bill James. Pretty interesting—
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/bill-james-answers-all-your-baseball-questions/?hp
MikeEff, someone please buy that caller a beer. Good for him.
I love Joba, but I don’t understand why you have to pump your fist like he does. It just seems like he is trying to show off the team and that’s not good. Is going to create problems with other teams in the league, but especially with his own teammates. I don’t think Jeter, Mo, Posada appreciate it. Yankees have been such a successful team for years, and showing off other teams is not how they did it. I love Joba, am not telling him not to do it, but calm it down a bit.
Thanks Pete. O’Neill was a good Yankee, but he didn’t want to win or try any harder than anyone else, he was just less mature than other players. Dummies think that slamming your helmet on the ground makes you a warrior. There is no shortage of dummies at the Stadium every night.
I’m a native New Yorker, born in the Bronx, but I’m so embarrassed at how stupid and trashy some NY fans can be. Someone in my section will hinder my enjoyment of the game tonight with loud, obnoxious stupidity. There’s no doubt and no escape.
Mike in a way wants the Yankees to be corporate. I remember when he had issues with Shelly Duncan with his arm celebrations in the dug-out. I didn’t have a problem with that. But he’s kind of right about Joba. It’s a tad overboard.
O’Neill was a terrific player, and one of my favorites, but how many O’Neills were there from great earlier Yankees teams whose numbers haven’t been retired? Rivers or Chambliss or Nettles from the seventies, Bauer from the fifties, Lazerri or Combs from the twenties and thirties. All guys who were very good players on great teams, but if you retire all the uniforms (and I hope there are a bunch more coming up who fit that criteria), you’re going to be switching to letters and punctuation marks pretty soon.
“some caller from the bronx saying to fatcessa†who made you two the ambassadors from the yankees†of course they wont let the guy get a word in edgewise.”
I heard that comment Fatcessa has some stupid sense , does Jeter do it ! does Mariano do it !...when will he learn everybody can’t be the same. It’s not in thier nature.
I love all this non-sense about the curtain call… Including Halladay yelling at him. The fans keep cheering when they want a curtain call. He didn’t create it himself, he answered the call.
And let me also say that Pete, you REALLY need to do some studying about what it is to be a valuable player on a championship team. Nobody that comments here is going to argue that Paul O’Neill belongs in the HOF. Nobody. But to sum up his number-retirement-worthiness by saying he hit JUST .303 over 9 years is to miss the boat completely. I mean, in the “You are really covering sports as a profession?” shocking kind of way. O’Neill has 4 rings and I guarantee that if I suggest 3 distinct moments in Paul’s Yankee career that sum up his meaning to his fanbase, I bet 90% of the people here would name the exact same moments.
In the words of Yoda, “That is why you fail”
Pete, I’ll bet you everything I own that Bernie’s number will one day be retired.
It really bothers me when other pitchers do the histrionics – can I reconcile this with Joba without being a hypocrite?
I don’t think so.
Can i add one more number that needs to be retired after this year. 45. It should never be on a Yankee back again.
Pete: very well, stated. If i am in the bronx, tomorrow evening, Hawkins will have my support. EVERYTHING i have read this spring, pertaining to him have been positive. Not to mention, his on-field performance, to this point. Keep it up, LaTroy.
I agree with the post, good job Pete. I understand the reason why they might be upset, but the number isn’t retired, let it go.
As for Joba pumping his fist, I have no problem with it. He is a kid, he is fired up, it is what he does. With me being a computer dork for work, when I figure out how to make a Stored Procedure work correctly, I certainly pump my fist even though others couldn’t figure out. Not totally the same scenario, but just the idea that I get fired up when I get it done right.
~~~~~~~~”Thanks Pete. O’Neill was a good Yankee, but he didn’t want to win or try any harder than anyone else, he was just less mature than other players. ”~~~~~~~~—————————————————————————————-
Wow. That could easily be the least informed opinion of a Yankee player in history. In fact, until proven otherwise, I would say that was a trolling Red Sox fan posting such drivel.
Yeah, Joba’s fist punch is a bit much, but hey it was opening day and he held the score. He’s a kid and he’s excited. It is that enthusiasm that we love – I’m afraid if we asked him to “tone it down” it would have a negative effect on his approach—and therefore his success—to the game.
A guy I talked to in class today, a Sox fan, mind said that it wasn’t Joba celebrating that bothered him, but that the Yanks’ fans called out Papelbon for it, but now that Joba does it, it’s great.
Take it as you will.
Displays of emotion never really bothered me.
You know Pete, the thing everyone seems to be overlooking is that O’Neill was a big Roberto Clemente fan as a child and I’m sure today. Look, no one is a bigger Paul O’Neill fan than me, but let’s look at the big picture here, it’s a number, it doesn’t disrespect the player or any memories we have of him.
what is it w/ this fascination of those types of celebration I mean did Mike fall asleep in 1940 or someting ? you can’t change someone’s character, if you don’t like that tough it’s either take Joba as he is or don’t. I do. And count me as one of the fans that hate the corporate atmosphere..ABSOLUTELEY HATE IT !
The only real way for the No. 21 issue to be dealt with is to have Paulie himself to make a statement during a YES broadcast to say how he feels about the entire matter.
If in fact keeping his number 21 unused was a directive from George, then that too should be discussed rather than have everything linger and see players like LaTroy Hawkins getting booed without mercy.
The only numbers that should have ever been retired were those that were elected to the Hall of Fame. Special mention for prominent Yankees can be done in several ways including a separate section in Monument Park.
Tino Martinez contributed every bit as much as Paul O’Neill did as a Yankee yet his number 24 has and still is being worn without a problem.
I have no problem with Melky’s curtain call and I have no problem with Joba, KRod or Papelbon’s actions on the mound.
Its entertainment people. Its ok for these players to show emotion and entertain us.
If the opponents don’t like it, then either get them out or hit HR’s off them.
More Francesa nonsense to get the phones cooking on a slow news day.
I think its great to see young players showing emotions.
Geez, the last thing we need is a team full of robots.
Also, was it disrespectful of Paul O’Neill to wear Roberto Clemente’s number? Not the same team, but kind of the same principle…
Munson’s a tough call? They don’t win in 77 or 78 without him.
You were joking , right?
Maybe I’m old school, but I would rather see Joba tone it down.
As a kid, I always remember my dad saying act like you’ve been there before or act like you’ve done it a thousand times as the rule of thumb.
A little emotion is fine but the screaming and fist pumping and spinning around should be reserved for the dugout.
“The fans keep cheering when they want a curtain call. He didn’t create it himself, he answered the call.”
Chris, i think the issue Halladay had was that Melky popped out of the dugout while Halladay was delivering a pitch.
if he was pissed about that, i am not sure i blame him.
I was ok with Joba’s fist pump as a wide eyed rookie last year. And I can let it go since it was opening day. But unless you are closing out the game, the double twirling fist pump is a bit much to end the 8th inning. Showing some emotion is one thing, but he could definitely tone it down some.
first of all i HAVE seem Mo give a ( small) fist pump from time to time, but i’m not calling in to that show because they’d insist i have not only the date but footage to prove it.
anyway…i moved on to MSNBC…
Well put pete. I never really cared that he was wearing 21, especially since it’s for a good reason. It’s a real shame that some bad seeds booed him for it.
Is tonight’s game on ESPN2? sorry if that has been covered but i just got here and don’t feel like reading all the posts.
my thoughts, Re: joba celebrating
he’s young. when he’s in the league for 5+ and is celebrating the same way (hi K-Rod), then i’ll complain.
“O’Neill has 4 rings and I guarantee that if I suggest 3 distinct moments in Paul’s Yankee career that sum up his meaning to his fanbase, I bet 90% of the people here would name the exact same moments”
actually, he has 5
If Halladay doesn’t like guys taking curtain calls he should probably not give up homers. I understand it was a 100% Yankee Stadium dinger, but tough shrimp, buddy. Grow a pair already.
Great post Pete.21 is a great number because of Roberto Clemente.And it seems more Yankees need to know who he was.
I believe Joba pumping his fist in a Home Opener game is kinda stupid.If you do it once in awhile thats okay but twirling around is stupid he needs to relax.
I believe Mariano once in a newspaper article said he didn’t like the celebrations of Papalebon or K-Rod because they show too much emotions espcially the overracting K-Rod.And I know Joba and Paplebon both give off the same emotions.
Mariano needs to put a new pup Joba in his place for showing up Future Hall Of Famer Frank Thomas.Mariano even as a kid never ever did that.
I don’t think asking Joba to tone down the fist pump would have any sort of effects on his game. I’m not a big fan of it, but that’s me.
Bottom line, Joba’s fist pumps are borderline showing people up, Manny’s nonsense is way over that line. I’m tired of hearing these clown’s using Manny as the comparison. He’s a disgusting human being and he doesn’t pause for a moment and toss the bat like most guys do. He stands still at the plate and acts like he’s God himself.
He’s a slob and a disgrace that, due to the injustices of the world, was blessed with amazing talent. Not a kid showing emotion on opening day of his first pro season.
Hhhhmmm…. Uh, I don’t particularly care about the Cincy WS ring that Paul has. He has 4 rings with NY. In no way does that 5th ring really endear him to the Yankee fanbase.
OH F*** IT TRIPLE PUMP FIST IT NEXT TIME JOBA & STICK POINT AT THEM TOO
Joba is 22 years old. He went from A ball to the big dance in a matter of months. He’s from a tiny town in middle America and in the blink of an eye he has the weight of the NY Yankees on his shoulders. I hear what people are saying. Personally I wouldn’t want him to lose all of his enthusiasm. Tone it down a bit maybe but keep his presence up there.
Good pitching beats good hitting as evidenced by the K.C. Royals and early as it may be, they don’t have interest in being anybody’s sister. It’s nothing new. They gave the Tigers fits last year also. It’s a final, 4-0 K.C. in the Tiger’s yard.
ok, Mc Lovin is against the fistpump. i rest my case.
Yes, the game is going to be on ESPN2.
Rebecca, “Displays of emotion never really bothered me”.
It doesn’t bother me either, but, there is a time and a place for everything, and I’m pretty sure pumping your fist in front of another major leaguer face is not the place.
I’m pretty much hoping this doesn’t affect Joba mentally, he’s not good player, he’s great player, and when you’re a great player you receive lots of attention, therefore every single move of his, is going to be talked about. Like I said it doesn’t bother me, but if it going to attract bad attention, recycle and move on, that’s all I got to say about that.
thanks Steph.
The vaunted Tigers lineup can’t put anything together againts KC. i hope we don’t have that problem.
The Yankees have been the standard bearer for acting with class on the field. Joe Torre did a fabulous job ensuring that opponents weren’t shown up and his own players didnt grandstand. I loved it.
Did folks notice the expressions on Joe Girardi’s face last night? He reacted facially to Wang leading off an inning with a walk and when Jeter & Abreau didnt get Damon home from third in the 8th. Gone are the days of Joe Torre’s stoicism. I think Joe Girardi is going to allow Joba to be Joba as long as it’s within reason.
Last night was an emotional game and Joba showed some emotion. Being stoic hasn’t worked, maybe being emotional, within reason, will work.
Manny just struck out with bases loaded none out in the top of the 1st in Oakland.
I think the Yankees should start implementing this remedy by reactivating #15. Sure, Munson was a great guy, a team captain, but he was MVP only once (‘76), and this after hitting only .302 with 17 HR.
No more sentimentality in Yankee Stadium! Baseball should be a game of spread sheets.
I can’t believe people really have a problem with Joba’s fist pump.
Sheesh, anybody who has ever played a sport celebrates when they make a good play. It’s a natural reaction.
Good point saucy. He’s just a kid. If I just blew some cheese past a certain HOF, I’d be pumped to.
Make that Lowell striking out right after Manny too…...
And Lowell followed with a K of his own. 2 outs, none in, bases still loaded.
damn, the wifi at my campus is down because somehow having a wireless internet connection poses a risk to barack obama who is here today, so i have to use the stupid computers in the language learning center and they can’t handle MLB.com for some reason.
And JD Drew ended the inning with a weak grounder to first. From bases loaded and none out to three outs and none in. Thank you Rich Harden!
are you all following the red sox game – what is going on with Harden – bases loaded with no outs…
at least he got the next 3
Okay, Harden left his mojo in Japan.
I don’t like Papelbon’s actions because he’s trying to intimidate, from his stare to his primal screams. His arrogance off the field as a self-proclaimed torch bearer is further evidence that he’s a little too full of himself.
On the other hand, who could hate Joba? He’s out there celebrating. Yes, he’s a beast but he’s in a zone, not trying to stare down someone. He wouldn’t hurt a fly, midge, or a gnat.
Oh, what the hell, it’s okay for Joba to do it b/c he’s a Yankee. I admit it. I’M A HOMER!
Wow, give Harden some big ups. Got out of a bases-loaded, no outs jam.
I guess the reason that I’m not a big fan of Joba’s fist pump is that it’s only the 8th inning. I love the kid and certainly don’t mind showing emotion, but I think that he should save some of the celebration for the dugout.
I can’t believe Harden loaded the bases with no one out and got out of it clean – struck out Manny and Lowell, and got Drew on a grounder to 1st.
Great post, Peter.
While we might debate O’Neill’s stature (heart and soul mean a TON to Yankee fans), your point holds even if a guy were wearing #7 IMO.
Would Paul or even the Mick care to be “honored” with boos for a good fellow Yankee?
Good on Harden! When the kid’s healthy, he’s lights out. If only he could stay off the DL…
25 pitches for the first inning is not good at all
wow, Red Sox..man now i don’t feel so bad about the Yankees stranding damon last night when he hit a leadoff triple.
MikeEff- Shelley ,Every Day-
Guess you are against Mariano views because he didn’t like Paplebon’s fist pump also.
We know he is a kid but relax it’s game one we don’t need to see that all the time you haven’t accomplish anything even as a set-up man for a full year to be showing up people.What he has one save in his carrer.
I’ve never booed a player in my life. So if I was there last night i wouldnt have booed. BUT, I’m sure LaTroy knew what he was doing when he took the number. I’m sure he knew that Ensberg had some issues and he took the number anyway. So I dont feel sorry for him getting booed. If he goes out there tonight and pitches well he’ll be fine. But if he gets off to a slow start, he’s going to be crucified by most Yankee fans. Most of us didnt want him in the first place. Taking the number probably angered some of that group of fans even more and if he doesnt perform, he’s going to get raked over the coals.
these 2 on the radio, are complete idiots. However, if i am Joe or Cashman, i do have Joba tone it down.
it is funny, never witnessed any yankee fans letting K-Rod off the hook, for being young.
you think a-rod’s 13 will be on that list of probable retired numbers?
I wrote about this last night in the game thread and the same points have been made over and over already, but to reiterate: it was the last opening night at that Yankee Stadium, it was Joba’s first opening night on the ML roster, it was Girardi’s first game as manager, and Joba came into a 1-run game and faced the heart of Toronto’s order. Then he had a runner in scoring position and faced down Frank “Future Hall of Famer and the Biggest of Big Hurts” Thomas and STRUCK HIM OUT. Of course Joba is going to be pumped up. I predict that we will not see the exact same display after he records the final out of every inning he pitches, even via the K, and I’m sure his demeanor will change even more when he moves into the rotation. But that was a very special out he recorded and I don’t understand for a second why anyone would have a serious problem with his reaction. If he acts like that every time, let’s revisit the subject. But come on, cut the kid some slack!
here’s the thing when Jose Reyes does his dance he stays on the step and does salsa cheer moves and does every type of hand shake mix he could think of.
Joba gets the 3rd out to end the inning hypes the crowd, yesterday I know everybody was energized watching the game just a little more than they were before. Again if you don’t like Joba doing the pump then don’t be a fan of his. I love him for being him.
I actually think it’s interesting that some fans booed Hawkins. That shows me that the average fan is now paying very close attention as this issue was not widely publicized. It sucks for Hawkins, but I’m sure there is a beat writer who can tell LaTroy why he got booed.
Joba was excited. He struck out a future hall of famer on the last opening day of the most famous stadium in sports. I agree it could get to be a little much if it’s a 3 run lead in Kansas City in July, but for yesterday it was fine. As for the argument that Yankee fans complain when other teams do it, yeah that’s true, but Papelbon, K Rod and others still do it constantly, so what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
I wasn’t overly excited about signing Hawkins, but I’ll never boo somebody who’s on the team I root for. Do people actually think that booing helps the player get out of a funk if they’re in a slump? I don’t think that you should boo the people that you’re supposed to be cheering for, even if they took your favourite player’s number.
I asked Morgan Ensberg in ST on March 17th if he was keeping the #21..he said ..No,that he wanted #14 instead.I was surprised to read in the paper this morning that Hawkins was booed.Paulie was a fav of mine,and I wear that number myself,but I do not feel it should be retired,if Hawkins is wearing it because of Clemente,then Im fine with that.
On a similar note…Scott Patterson said he would have kept his #70 if he made the team out of ST.
i wish i could say i’ve never booed a Yankees player, but i did take part in some of the booing of Kyle Farnsworth at a game or two last year..it was when he was being a bitch to Posada and complaining about Torre in the media, and at the same time allowing the tying run to score pretty much every time he came out. it couldn’t be helped.
i also booed Sheff last year when the Tigers were in town, again for things he said about Torre, but it’s okay to boo opponents in my book.
Dang, Harden makes what happened to Damon last night look like nothing.
By the way, no more A’s/Sox updates from me for now, I’m switching over to the Arsenal/Liverpool Champions League match. It’s 1-1!
Why did Papelbon become the second most hated Red Sock in only 2 years time?
I say it is because of his on mound behavior.
Why do we respect Varitek? he’s all business
Pete, I usually bash you but that was a great post. Credit where credit is due.
I don’t think he deserved to be booed either, Pete.
Being from Upstate New York, we act differently than those from New York City. We are no less New Yorkers than they are, but we don’t have that edge.
I really wish fans at Yankee Stadium would quit booing ANY player on THEIR team. You don’t like them, so what? I still LOVE you guys, but it’s a bit harsh and I think it gives the rest of us (Non New York City) fans a bad rap too.
I don’t think Farnsworth deserved to be booed either. He is a member of the Yankees. Give him another chance, Joe has.
You can only win rookie of the year once, but we get your drift.
Joba does the same move whenever he shuts down the inning, I think. Papelbon and K-Rod do the same thing when they close out a game.
For the people saying Joba was excited that he struck out a future HOFer-when Papelbon and K-Rod have shut down the Yankees before, I’m sure that they got some future HOFers on the roster out…were you mad that they had fist pumps at the end?
Pump those fists Joba. He has finally brought some emotion back to this team that has seemed so stoic over the past few seasons.
I don’t know about Varitek being all business.
I still do not like how he went after Alex in full gear.
I do respect what he has done though.
I agree with Pete. From everything I’ve seen, heard and read, LaTroy has been a standup teammate. From taking part in the Billy Crystal pranks, to walking around with a Joba Rules Tee shirt on, to trying to console Scott Patterson after he’d been demoted by telling him to whoop it up and get hammered at the hotel and charge it all to LaTroy.
I apllaud him for wanting to represent Clemente…
Great, great post as always Pete. There’s always a few idiot Yankees fans that ruin our standup image,
pat
April 2nd, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Maybe I’m old school, but I would rather see Joba tone it down.
As a kid, I always remember my dad saying act like you’ve been there before or act like you’ve done it a thousand times as the rule of thumb.
A little emotion is fine but the screaming and fist pumping and spinning around should be reserved for the dugout.
Pat i agree 100%. We have a problem with Manny watching his ball go over the fence for an hour at the plate. Im not saying just walk to the dugout and show no emotion. But tone it down. A fist pump without the showting might be less taunting. Whats next? Pitchers and Batters doing a dance after and out or a homerun? Or pointing at their opponent and talking trash? I cant be a hipocrit on this matter. I hate when K rod and Puckerlips does it and i hope he doesnt act like them.
I have a 9 year old son that i tell to act like he’s been their before and let others brag about you. BE HUMBLE.
Varitek is a punk. He knew he wanted to fight A-Rod, he should have dropped the mask so they could go at it. Like A-Rod is going to throw a haymaker at a guy witha steel mask around his ugly face…
Varitek = roid rage…
“Why do we respect Varitek? he’s all business”
who is we?
I don’t respect varitek. I don’t respect people who pick fights wearing catching masks. I refer to him as, Captain Butthead.
I do not mind Joba’s fist pump. I can also honestly say i never complained about Pap or K-Rod doing it, but i don’t like it, obviously because they’re opponents, not because i think it’s disrespectful.
i guess in the long run though, it would probably do more good for joba to celebrate in the dugout, much like the forearm slams of the great Shelly Duncan. actually it probably wouldn’t be a good idea for Joba to bash his forearm on anything but you get the idea.
Like Pete said, it’s not a player’s fault for wearing a jersey that has been made available by the Yankees organization.
If they didn’t want anyone wearing it, they wouldn’t make it available.
Here’s hoping that LaTroy will get the respect he deserves, regardless of the number on his back.
respect varitek? are you kidding me?
Christine,
Upstate represent! Heh. Yeah, I agree about that edge. I’ve met some, but it’s few and far between. Not that we’re all mellow yellow up here though.
Paulie’s #21 should not be retired just as Bernie’s #51 shouldn’t either. The only recent memory Yankees that should are Jeter, Mo, ARod, and just as someone stated earlier, Robbie’s (‘cause we all know he’s that good).
And as far as setting a standard goes, Yankee brass should definately go that route. I can’t imagine the day a Yankee takes the field with a 3-digit number on his back…and if they don’t set a standard, that’s exactly what’s going to happen.
Getting your number retired should signify an agreed upon greatness, not just by your team’s fans but by baseball fans everywhere and, going by that, the Yankees have gone wayyyyy overboard. In my own personal opinion, the only numbers that should be retired are 3 (Ruth), 4 (Gehrig), 5 (DiMaggio), 7 (Mantle), 8 (Berra), and eventually 2 (Jeter), 13 (Rodriguez), 24 (Cano) and 42 (Rivera).
lighten up. they’re not real people with feelings, they’re baseball players. And the guy wasn’t even alive to see clemente play
*oh, and their could be more present-day Yankees to add to the list but its too premature to put them in
Why do we respect Varitek? he’s all business
Sorry, I cant respect the masked man. Till i see him throw his mask off to fight. He gets no respect from me.
I want to go out on the limb and predict the Yankees to go 162-0 in the regular season. 11-1 in post. 1 loss being in the world series and a fluke.
Tigers lose 4-0. Next prediction will be,they dont score 1000 runs this year and miss the playoffs.
Pete,
One of your most poignant and succinct entries every ! Great job.
i’ve gotta wonder about some of the retired number choices people are making. Champagne…you realize that you have 5 numbers from before our time retired, then 4(with the possibility for more) from our era. that just screams bias. because we see these guys, its much easier to call them greater than the rest.
I’m not saying anything bad about the names you’ve mentioned, i can’t argue with any of them, but i’m just pointing out what glares.
“Munson’s a tough call? They don’t win in 77 or 78 without him.
You were joking , right?”
Okay and your point? The yankees don’t win the WS in ‘98 or ‘99 without Tino or Brosius. So should we retire their numbers for it?
Munson’s a tough call because he was probably on his way to being a HOF Catcher. He was the captain and he died a tragic death. For the reason I can see retiring it. But I can also see the argument for not retiring it because he wasn’t one of the top 5 or even to 10 greatest yankees of all time. Like I said sometimes a plaque is a better idea.
very well put, Pete.
“No more sentimentality in Yankee Stadium! Baseball should be a game of spread sheets.”
great strawman.
the issue here is that LaTroy Hawkins was booed for wearing a number that was not retired.
Great Post, Pete….AGAIN, we are thinking alike…waddya know, friend ????
Pete: please pass the positive feedback from this message board, to LaTroy, if/when you see him.
I’m OK with booing a lack of effort, hustle, or team spirit (things within a player’s control).
Those who boo good guys for slumps or (ghast!) their uniform #s? Well, let’s just say I wouldn’t want to be one of their kids.
“But if he gets off to a slow start, he’s going to be crucified by most Yankee fans.”
right. and you don’t see how stupid that is?
I think pete missed #13
“To have his number retired, a player should have spent 80 percent of his career with the Yankees and been elected to the Hall of Fame. Or at least won a major award (Cy Young, MVP, Rookie of the Year, World Series MVP) twice.”
Ok I guess we should just throw Donnie Baseball out of Monument Park. Ron Guidry too.
“Maybe” Bernie? Are you nuts?
And come on, World Series MVP is not a major award. It means you were good for one week. Scott Brosius, Bucky Dent, David Eckstein. It can be a fluky thing. Rookie of the Year is also not very meaningful. Cy Young and MVP are better since they are not very fluky, even though occasionally someone undeserving like Jimmy Rollins or bartolo Colon gets one.
Monument Park is not the Hall of Fame, otherwise it would be completely unnecessary. It is more like the “Yankee HOF”. Ron Guidry was not a hall of fame pitcher. But he was one of the greatest yankee pitchers ever, so he should clearly have his number retired and be in Monument Park. Ditto for Mattingly. That’s what it’s about, not winning multiple “awards” and being a MLB hall of famer. And so a guy like O’Neill could have a probable case for getting a number retired and put into Monument Park because he was a great yankee. Ditto Bernie. It’s not the biggest crime ever. And people will forget about Hawkins wearing #21 soon enough, they are just initially upset, that’s all. It’s quite normal.
Hall of very good!!! Wow, you’re a spectacularly original and insightful sportswriter! Your use of that line alone should earn you entry into the Hall Of Very Trite and Hackneyed!!
“Your use of that line alone should earn you entry into the Hall Of Very Trite and Hackneyed!!”
huh, i don’t always agree with what Pete writes, but i am not sure why this caused such a reaction.
the term “Hall of Very Good” is a pretty widely accepted term for a player of O’Neill’s caliber. it is not an insult by any means.
it recognizes that there are a large population of great players who fall just short of the Hall of Fame.
Booing players on your team is absolutely ridiculous. If you root for a team, shouldn’t you WANT everyone to do well? Don’t boo because of past performances; how is that going to spur a player on to play better? Don’t boo because of some warped loyalty. I was a little annoyed at Hawkins DEMANDING number 21, in a sense, but I like Hawkins a lot, and have no problem with the number being reintroduced.
“Hall of Very Good†is a stupid cliche. Lots of bad sports writers use it all the time, so unfortunately lots of fans use it as well.
Hmm, just thought of something
I’d guess that some people have a personal dislike for particular players
Then, sometimes this leads to a subconscious desire to see them fail/not enjoy success
So booing would be their attempt to help achieve that end
Or…
They just don’t think things through or figure that booing will somehow actually improve performance.
Granted, that somehow worked for Bonds, but I don’t see that being common…
how do people know Halladay had a problem with Melky’s curtain call? did he say something?
LC: YES reported, he yelled at Melky, to get his @ss back in the dugout.
I’ve only been following this blog for a few weeks, so apologies if someone has already pointed to this article.
In light of Bannister blanking the fearsome Tigers for 7 innings, I found this article about his sabermetric approach to preparation interesting:
http://tinyurl.com/39yrtq
If fans wanted to get how they felt about Paulie and #21 off their chest, and now it’s over, fine. Point taken, I’m guessing. Now let’s hope everyone backs off of LaTroy on this issue.
I still believe that George retired #9 for Marris just to get back at Nettles, who had just bashed The Boss in “Balls.”
If we go with a criterion of 10 years of service plus Hall of Fame, we have the following:
1 (Martin) – Not yet, but might make Hall (player and manager service time are combined)
2 (Jeter) – Almost certainly
3 (Ruth) – Yes
4 (Gehrig) – Yes
5 (Dimaggio) – Yes
6 (Torre) – Should make Hall
7 (Mantle) – Yes
8 (Dickey, Berra) – Both yes
9 (Marris) – No
10 (Rizzuto) – Satisfies criteria, but doesn’t feel right
15 (Munson) – Can probably make an exception due to tragic death, even though he may not have made Hall
16 (Ford) – Yes
20 (Posada) – No, unless he has two more monster years and makes Hall
21 (O’Neil) – No
23 (Mattingly) – No
32 (Howard) – No
39 (Stengel) – Yes
42 (Rivera) – Yes
44 (Jackson) – No
49 (Guidry) – No
51 (Williams) – No
My 2 cents,
I think a lot of the booing of Hawkins was less about the number on his back than the fact that we’re used to watching the guy get lit up as a major league reliever and we’re none to happy to see him in pinstripes.
It’s the same reason why Farnsworth gets booed.
LOL! Anyone who thinks that Whitey Ford’s number shouldn’t have been retired needs to stop posting. Now.
totally agree Pete.
anti-mussina – “but a backstabber/roid user like pettitte gets cheered? its just wrong.”—————————————————————————————-
Het Moron… Pettitte did NOT use steroids!
I have just become Anti-Azzhole. Anyone Else?
I 100% agree with you Dennis. Like the HOF, the more questionable numbers are retired, the more it waters down the honor. And 44, an Oakland Athletic? A selfish player who put himself over Munson? How did this number get retired?
We don’t retire numbers for blood and gets, or great effort. We retire numbers because no one again might match their greatness. Jeter, as a SS, probably qualifies, and Mo also, but not Po. Paul or Bernie. True Yankees, great Yankees, but not iconic figures at their position.
To me, a retired Yankee number is a greater honor then the HOF…. because it is a Yankee HOF.
It is too bad people here can’t love a player without elevating his status relative to baseball history.
Numbers that should be retired:
#3 Babe Ruth •
#4 Lou Gehrig •
#5 Joe DiMaggio •
#7 Mickey Mantle •
#8 Bill Dickey •
#8 Yogi Berra •
#10 Phil Rizzuto •(honorary… as an announcer and Yankee icon)
#15 Thurman Munson (maybe… for honorary reasons)
#16 Whitey Ford •
#49 Ron Guidry * (maybe… would have to compare his stats)
Oops… and ARod, if he plays 10 years in Pinstripes.
Hmm, the booing didn’t come through on my TV. Pretty inappropriate if it happened.
And when are the Yanks just going to build their own little Hall of Fame? Fan Favorites like Paulie deserve some serious recognition, and since numbers are eventually going to run out, just build a Hall and induct him.
That way the Yanks make more money, players are honored, and number-retiring is reserved for the Best Of The Best.
I wouldn’t have booed Hawkins, but it sure seems tacky of him to grab number 21 after Ensberg gave it up because he didn’t feel right wearing Paul O’Neill’s number 21. Ensberg got that Yankee fans aren’t ready to see another player wear 21 yet. It was a class act of him to give the number up, and a bit tacky of Hawkins to grab it.
In the end, it’s really meaningless, but I think Hawkins made a mistake swooping in and requesting 21, even for honoring Roberto Clemente.
marek malik wears #21?
New Ballpark in 09, time to unretire the #
I said last night that it was extremely tasteless to boo any Yankee last night, opening night. You just don’t boo your own team, especially not in the circumstances of being introduced. What a welcome for La Troy Hawkins, huh? THIS is the house that Ruth built? I don’t think so. Even Farnsworth, before the first game of the season, deserved only applause – as in, welcome to the 2008 season, let’s be in this thing together!
Everyone is free to feel about a player whatever way they want to, but it shows absolutely no class to boo a player who works hard, and certainly to a boo a player who has no Yankee record whatsoever. And my mom always taught me, if you don’t have something good to say, say nothing at all. So, you don’t have to boo; just don’t cheer.
Paul O’Neill was a huge part of the 90’s Yankee Dynasty, no doubt. I personally don’t think his number should be retired, but in point of fact, it is not retired and if a player is assigned that number they should not be made to feel awful about wearing it (Ensberg), nor should they be a pariah for having chosen it (Hawkins). It is, quite simply, childish.
You can’t have it both ways with Joba’s fist pumps. You can’t say it’s obnoxious from anyone else who does it, and then excuse it for Joba because he is young and excited. So, Papelbon is not allowed to be excited? K-Rod is not allowed to be excited? Either you like the fist pump or you don’t, Yankee or not a Yankee. I wish they’d all tone it down just a teeny bit, but I really don’t think it does much real harm. It might fire a team up here or there, and it may annoy fans, but in the end, it’s not a big deal, and it’s part of the game. It’s certainly not the same as doing a dance in the endzone. If the team doesn’t like it, they will address it with Joba and it will be a non-issue. If the team has no issue with it, then it’s still a non-issue.
As for numbers that maybe should not have been retired? I say Billy Martin. He’s more of a folk hero than a “great Yankee,” even if he did bleed pinstripes. I also would say it would not bother me if Reggie’s number wasn’t retired, either. Yes, he was integral to those great years in the late 70s, but he wasn’t a Yankee for so long. Gator, maybe, too. Made great contributions, had a fantastic ‘78 season. But there’s got to be a distinction between a player whose number warrants being retired (Babe Ruth, Lou Gherig, Yogi, Whitey Ford), and those players who should be commemorated without having their numbers retired (most of the others). And maybe time needs to pass, 8 years after a player retires, maybe, before his number is retired, because emotions run way too high immediately after. Maris, too, maybe should not have been retired. Great year, wonderful accomplishment. But he’s not among the first person you think of when you think of great Yankees.
“maybe even 51 for Bernie”
Maybe????
where’s my post?
hmmmm…
It was not a strawman, but Munson doesn’t meet the criteria Pete laid out to exclude retiring Paulie’s number. They’re both very good players and sentimental choices, though.
As for booing Hawkins, I wouldn’t have done it and if the guy sitting next to me had, I’d probably throw him out of my luxury box… yeah, right. I would be hesitant to converse with him. Hawkins, a great guy by all accounts, was not being at all disrespectful of Paul O’Neal. And if Hawins is Puerto Rican, I can understand his wanting, being honored to wear Roberto Clemente’s #21.
Pete yo