Looking back on two trades
-
- April
- 4
What do Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan and Anthony Claggett have in common?
As any astute Yankee fan would know, those are three prospects obtained from Detroit for Gary Sheffield on Nov. 10, 2006.
What you may not know is all three of them are on the disabled list to start the season. Sanchez is recovering from arm surgery, Whelan a sore elbow and Claggett a hamstring strain. The always astute Tyler Kepner of the Times pointed that out today.
The trade wasn’t a waste because the Yankees weren’t going to keep Sheffield anyway. But after 16 months, none of the three have helped the Yankees much.
The Randy Johnson deal on Jan. 9, 2007 was a little better. The Yankees got a year out of Luis Vizcaino and then turned him into a first-round pick by letting him walk to the Rockies. Ross Ohlendorf is in the majors and has promise. Steven Jackson has faded away. Alberto Gonzalez was a September call-up and could be the utility infielder at some point.
Vizcaino has looked terrible in his first two outings for the Rockies, by the way.
I think the next trade the Yankees make could be Hideki Matsui for prospects after the season. Godzilla has become a spare part, especially if Shelley Duncan shows he can DH every day.
Or Brian Cashman could turn some of his extra parts (a center fielder here, a pitching prospect there) into a player this July.
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on Friday, April 4th, 2008 at 1:06 pm by Peter Abraham.
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Peter Abraham
in the long run the sheffield trade will be a good one too, i’ve heard too many good things about Homberto Sanchez for him to not give us anything
only 6 hours until game time! Off to physical therapy for me, stupid knee surgery lol, see everyone later!
http://tinyurl.com/6r7s6m
Mark Melancon is NOT hurt,,,thankgod
I loved the Johnson trade. Ohlendorf IMO could be a good setup man. I’m excited about the draft pick. Its not liek Johnson helped the D-Backs all that much.
The Sheff trade was meh, I like Abreu and I’m looking at Whelan, who has some nasty pitches and Humberto to factor into the bullpen one day.
Pete: I think a key point in all of this is that neither Sheffield nor Johnson has done all that much since being traded, either. So while the prospects the Yanks got back haven’t had a huge impact (yet, Sanchez and Whelan might turn out to be something and Ohlendorf has been useful), at least we aren’t paying tons of money to aging veterans (and surly ones, at that). Those are two moves you’d make again in a heartbeat.
doesnt hideki have a NT clause? would he waive it?
hey pete,
is today’s game gonna be postponed? i have tickets but i’m not hopping on a bus from boston to nyc if it’s just gonna get rained out.
-giselle
Does anyone think that Cashman’s focus on bringing youth to the Bronx will have economic impact through our minor league system?
With YS prices rising—and thus potentially cutting off the feeder-pool passionate fans—the nearby minor league parks can be nice, affordable alternatives.
Knowing these kids have a realistic shot of playing in the Bronx is a HUGE incentive for people to go to Trenton or SWB. IF we keep bringing youth to the Bronx (rather than always trading them), the minors can become the place that modest-income folks go to become the next generation of Yankee fans.
What do you think?
Ensberg and Igawa may prove to be trade worthy as well.
Matsui has a full NTC, so he would have to waive it for a trade to happen.
I think it’s way too soon to fairly judge either the Sheffiled or Johnson deals. Isn’t it reasonable to say that in 5 years both Sheffield and Johnson will be retired, and that guys like Sanchez and Ohlendorf, just to pick 2 of the more prominent names, may be part of the Yanks’ staff.
Of course, let’s also take into account that both trades helped the depth of the farm system.
It’s still too early to write the book on those trades.
Given the situations with both Sheffield and Johnson, both of those were good trades if only because the yankees didn’t want to keep or pay either Sheffield and Johnson.
They renewed Sheff’s contract only to trade him. Whatever they got for him was a plus.
Until Sanchez starts throwing again this trade is still one you can’t judge. Once he went down with elbow surgery it was unlikely any of the prospects were going to contribute over the next two seasons.
Sanchez could be the next set up guy, could be the next closer, could be a bust. He’s got a lot of talent but has a lot to prove. It’s not easy to trade for pitchers who were as highly thought of as sanchez.
The Johnson trade was a good one because they dumped his salary (and avoided his grousing about wanting a contract extension – how well has that worked out for the D’Backs) and got a useful (if inconsistent year) from the Viz (and a supplemental draftpick for him).
And Ohlendorf looks like he’s going to be a useful piece in the pen. Jackson actually started throwing the ball better second half of last year and impressed them in the spring this year. He’s a useful organizational depth guy.
They knew when they got Humberto in the deal that they’d likely lose him to surgery. I’d much rather have Bobby here than Sheffield. And how much has Sheff contributed since he has been gone?
The Sheffield trade was a salary and malcontent dump.
And Matsui is NOT a spare part.
it was raining pretty hard this morning but its not raining now. Hopefully it’ll hold up
Those trades were addition by subtraction. Anything this team gets out of them is gravy.
Oy. Single, error, walk. No outs. Mags RBI double play. Could’ve been worse.
Detroit might get their first win of the season with Contreras on the mound.
Matsui is a waste, is he even healthy?
Word on 3/1 was that he would likely open the season on the DL. Now, playing everyday.
No home runs for him during ST. Has he hit one hard out the infield thus far? I think he had a blooper to left yesterday. Not encouraging.
Shelley rots on the bench.
I remember a rumor of him going to SFG over the winter.
Lets deal him if hes already a spare part on 4/4.
Pete…..I hope you are sitting down…I agree with you again !!!!...unless Godzilla turns it around this season….( which is a big IF,,,right ? )....Have a great day, ALL…I am back to the grind…..
Is it raining in the Bronx? Everywhere else seams to be clear.
Has Johnson even won a game since he’s been gone? All i know is even if these prospects end up giving us nothing. We got rid of two guys that were cancer to the clubhouse. Johnsons staredowns to Posada. Sheffield everyday distracting comments,while getting Arod to tag along. Who knows,if sheff would have stayed, would Arod still be here. Maybe some of the hate to arod from teammates came from Gary comparing Jeter to Arod and Arod hanging out with him.
Things that make you say hmmm. I wonder if Johnson would have stayed. Would we have signed Irabu the 2nd? Or would Pettitte have comeback.
thanks for paraphrasing a New York Times note for us Pete. glad we didn’t have to read a real newspaper for that info.
let’s see if you’re still seemingly so sour on the Sheffield trade a year from now. i have a feeling that Sanchez and Whelan will have impressed by then.
Has anyone here heard about the campaign to rickroll the mets? Seems several social news sites are trying to get as many people as possible to choose “Never Gonna Give You Up” as the sing-along song for the final season at Shea in this competition. http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/nym/fan_forum/singalong_vote_form.jsp
I wonder if they will actually get enough votes…
“Many had worried Melancon had been injured in some way, but it was apparently human error in conducting the live box score. Though nothing has been confirmed yet”
Okay, I believe there’s something they call the TELEPHONE; how’bout try calling.
Oh Matsui how far you have fallen. You had that one amazing month last year and other than that nothing really.
If Gardner shows promise midseason I’d rather trade Damon though.
As much as Matsui has struggled at the plate, Damon has been any better.
hasn’t*
Another reason registrations would be nice…....Edit button!
from espn today- Randy Johnson gave up eight hits, allowed five earned runs, and struck out just one in four innings in a rehab start with the minor league Tucson Sidewinders.
Nuff said.
James
That first stuff maybe childish, but hell I laughed and if Abraham has a sense of humour he’s probably smiling too.
He probably cursed ya also….hehehe
With the trades Humberto Sanchez is not 25 yet and could be a real dark horse
Sheffield wouldn’t have made any contribution to this team last year anyways. He was injured. So it was pretty much a wash. Sanchez may see time at the end of this season, and with a great K/BB ratio, he’ll hopefully be a Chamberlain-type reliever so that we can move Joba where he belongs….to the rotation.
“doesnt hideki have a NT clause? would he waive it?”
I think he would in the right situation, with the right explanation.
Johnson picked up 4 wins (pitched in 10 games) last year
Matsui has been a class act all the way through his time as a Yankee. I would be sad to see him go because he plays the game the right way and never causes any negative publicity. He is recuperating from knee surgery so his lack of power in Spring (like all spring stats) is meaningless.
I remember there was some talk over the winter of trading him to SF for prospects. Barring injury the only “need” we seem to have is middle infield utility.
I would hold onto Matsui as a solid bargaining chip in case the injury bug strikes.
2-1 White Sox over Detroit. Bwahaha!
Detroit is down again. Wasn’t it just a few years ago theyt started 0-12?
hideki is still recovering from injury. he’s not 100% and it’s telling. i am sure he will be fine in due time. for all of those writing his obituary, remember he was AL player of the month last july and even with his injury-induced struggles last september he finished the season with an ops of .855. i think there will be plenty of at bats for duncan this year as i can’t fathom giambi making over 100 starts at first base. i hope he proves me wrong, but it would be shocking if he can stay healthy and productive in the field more than that.
Blargh,
Thanks for the info. I was being sarcastic. My bad. Happy face would help.
LOL I so picked the Friends theme song for the Mets fans
“Oh Matsui how far you have fallen. You had that one amazing month last year and other than that nothing really.”
Actually, may and august were both very good overall, and July was absurdly incredible.
The guy’s a quality player. If they’re trading someone, I’d move Johnny. It all depends on what the deal is with Abreu, though…looking to bring in TWO decent corner OFers would be daunting when there are none really available in free agency.
Pete.
You really stink at taking time off!!
Congrats on a good win last night. Hughes looked great.
Have a good weekend.
-dennis
If Giambi is gone next year and you trade Matsui, who you DHing? Duncan?
I wouldnt be surprised if Damon or Matsui got traded by the trade deadline. I think Matsui would agree to it just because he wouldnt want to hold the Yankees back. Knowing they wanted to trade him. I think it will depend on the health of Giambi and the contribution of Duncan at that time.
Humberto will be a good pitcher for this team in short order.
“If Giambi is gone next year and you trade Matsui, who you DHing? Duncan?”
I’d probably bring someone in to do it part-time while also giving DH ABs to my aging vets—Damon if he’s still here, Jeter, Posada, Abreu if he’s still here. Perhaps Duncan would be that guy, actually.
It’s kind of moot to debate this until it gets to the end of the year and we see who’s looked good and who’s looked bad, who’s been healthy, who’s available on other teams and all that.
Funny stuff. It’s 3 games in and we’re jumping to conclusions on players all ready. Relax!!
Who got the game winning RBI in the Yankees first win? I’ll give you a hint he is always among the league leaders in getting the runner in from third with less than two outs.
Give up? Matsui.
In the above situation he is a virtual lock. He doesn’t strike out instead he takes what the pitcher gives him and gets the man home.
He is no spare part.
whozat,
Can Miranda be the answer next year at dh?
hey Pete,
you are ignoring about $28M on the Yankee side of the ledger.
Matsui is no spare part.
“Who got the game winning RBI in the Yankees first win? I’ll give you a hint he is always among the league leaders in getting the runner in from third with less than two outs.”
yes, he hit a tailor made DP ball. well done!!
i don’t dislike Matsui, but this is a terrible argument.
Without moot debate and idle speculation, we’d all be sitting at our desks working instead of hanging out here.
trading a hall of famer for an unproven, injury prone prospect…great move….....trading 2 unproven minor leaguers who arent really prospects for a proven major leaguer, who is 26 years old that is out for this season recovering from surgey…horrible move….here is where I insert the rolls eyes emoticon.
“Can Miranda be the answer next year at dh?”
Maybe part of it. I’ll tell you in December
There are so many parts that play into it…what happens with RF? Do they go after Tex for 1B? Did they trade Matsui or Damon at the deadline? Did Gardner show reason to believe that he could at least be a part-time player in the bigs? Is Miranda’s performance with the stick forcing the issue? Is Shelley Kevin Maas redux? How’s Jeter looking at SS? What about Posada behind the plate? Did Melky get his OBP back?
“trading 2 unproven minor leaguers who arent really prospects for a proven major leaguer, who is 26 years old that is out for this season recovering from surgey…horrible move.”
Which move are you talking about? And I can’t tell at whom you are being sarcastic.
Interestingly, Sheffield was hurt for most of the second half of last year and has a torn tendon in his finger already this year.
Its pretty tough to swing the bat like Sheffield does with a torn tendon. It may end up being another lost season for him in Detroit.
Given his contract, BS, and worse post-season numbers than Arod, that’s a trade I’d make again in a heartbeat.
As others have stated, until we see what we have in Sanchez, its hard to evaluate the trade.
If Sanchez is what he was prior to his surgery, its a steal for the Yankees.
Given the Tigers current pitching woes, I bet they would love him back right now. Even if he is still rehabbing.
The Johnson trade? They never should have traded for him in the first place.
If there has ever been a player, besides Ed Whitson, who was more ill-suited to NY, it was Randy Johnson.
A waste of time, salary and effort for his two years in NY.
The fact that his back is shot is yet again another reason why (regardless of the return) that was a no brainer deal to make.
If Ohlendorf turns out to be something, all the better.
However, just having Johnson off this team is addition by subtraction.
Maybe I’m not watching close enough, but is Matsui really that much worse than Damon or Abreu? I’ve always thought Matsui was a valuable cog and only recently did he get hurt (the wrist). If he really that much worse than Johnny and Bobbo now, then man was that a rapid decline. Thoughts?
And I forgot to mention that wouldn’t we be able to score more back for him than just some prospects? Wasn’t the team in talks with SF for some decent pitching during the offseason?
“Which move are you talking about? And I can’t tell at whom you are being sarcastic.”
ok, i thought it was just me
whozat…I made a statement saying that I would trade Alan Horne and Bret Gardner for Chris Ray in a heart beat and people crucified me for it. Im just saying, if trading Sheff for Hurtberto Sanchez was brilliant, why is trading Horne and Gardner for Ray so insanely stupid?
“Maybe I’m not watching close enough, but is Matsui really that much worse than Damon or Abreu?”
In what sense? He’s worse defensively than both. He’s better than Damon offensively (gets on base more AND slugs more), but isn’t as fast. Bobby generally gets on base like whoa, but doesn’t slug as much any more.
“whozat…I made a statement saying that I would trade Alan Horne and Bret Gardner for Chris Ray in a heart beat and people crucified me for it.”
Oh. I didn’t know about that. First of all, you can’t trade for someone on the DL. Second, given the general volatility of bullpen arms AND the risk that Ray may never regain his form after the TJ…I don’t know if I’d do that either. As for Horne…if he doesn’t stick as a starter, there’s a good chance that he sticks as a setup guy that can blow hitters away with his strikeout ability. So…if I’m not going to see the return until next year anyway, I’d kind of rather just wait on Horne.
The Sheff trade was a good trade in my book. It was a choice between getting a draft pick for the guy leaving as a free agent or some players the organization liked.
The book has yet to be written on Sanchez who was “the guy” in the that trade.
He was as highly rated as many 1st round picks are.
If he comes back throwing bullets and is pain free, it will go down as a steal since no team had to give the Yankees anything of value for Sheff.
Even if none of the players work out on the Yankee end, it’s not like the Yankees passed up getting Feliz Hernandez or something for Sheff in place of the Detroit package.
The options were limited at the time. Any team trading for Sheff knew they had to give him an extension and that he was old, a sort of admitted PED user and a clubhouse distraction when he gets a bone up his butt.
No one was offering more talent than Detroit.
The Randy Johnson trade looks good too. We cut bait on dead weight and got something in return.
What was the better offer that the Yankees turned down for him?
If SD was really offering Kouzmanoff for RJ, maybe that might be better than Ohlendorf in the long run, but as it stands, RJ is not doing jack for AZ and we have a young bullpen arm, a 1st round pick and got a season out Viz.
I think it’s very nit picky to call those trades bad at this point and I’m a huge critic of Cashman in most cases.
His free agent pitching signings have been mostly atrocious and we can’t always give him the pass that it was Tampa who wanted those guys.
Igawa was on his watch. That is a big black mark. When SD claimed him off waivers last year and the Yanks could have cut bait, they made a huge mistake hanging onto him.
And I don’t care that he pitched well in Scranton last night. He’s not being paid to do it in the minors.
Anyone have a MLB tv online subscription interested in exchanging a few paypal bucks to share it? I can’t watch my dad’s slingbox the same time he does so i can’t see games while he’s watching it on his phone… Or anyone donating to the great yankee cause? :p (last year my dad had 4 co workers using it and himself all year and it was never a problem..)
“whozat…I made a statement saying that I would trade Alan Horne and Bret Gardner for Chris Ray in a heart beat and people crucified me for it. Im just saying, if trading Sheff for Hurtberto Sanchez was brilliant, why is trading Horne and Gardner for Ray so insanely stupid?”
i don’t see what one trade has to do with the other. apples and oranges.
“If SD was really offering Kouzmanoff for RJ, maybe that might be better than Ohlendorf in the long run, but as it stands, RJ is not doing jack for AZ and we have a young bullpen arm, a 1st round pick and got a season out Viz.”
I read after the trade was consummated that RJ wasn’t actually willing to waive his no trade for anywhere other than Arizona. So, Cash got something in a situation when he had no leverage at all
So that’s a good one.
I think two keys points have been made. One was, we signed Sheff to control where he went ie not boston as FA. We certainly weren’t trading from strength because Sheff has burned a lot of bridges and everyone knew NYY didnt want him.
The other is we don’t know what we have yet. It’s like judging the NFL draft. You have to wait and see what the talent does after time.
As for Johnson, Viz already provided more then we would have gotten from RJ last year and Ohlendorf looks to be a solid releaf option this year.
Matsui might be a good fit for Seattle. Their corner OFs and DH are Ibanez, Wilkerson, and Vidro. Statues, all of them. Plus, Godzilla has more power and it would be a great story to have Matsui and Ichiro playing together for a few seasons.
Don’t know what the Yanks might be able to get back. I live in Seattle and Bavasi has made some truly boneheaded moves so Cash Money could probably have his way with him. Trying to pick up catching prospect Jeff Clement or one of the young bullpen arms might be a good match.
If we had let Sheff go, I assume that we would have received a decent draft pick for him.
As for Matsui, he is one of the key players on the team. Prior to the freak wrist injury, he was becoming a real iron man for the club. If he plays on a regular basis, he will continue to put up 25-30 HR and 90-100 RBI, with big hits in key situations.
I agree Chambliss. Thats what I was saying, he never had injury problems until that wrist. I don’t know how he’s all of a sudden become a spare part now.
Trading Brett Gardner and Alan Horne for Chris Ray IS a pretty crazy idea when you take into account that Chris Ray just had not been a successful relief pitcher for long enough to give you any inkling as to whether he’s the real deal. Horne, Melancon, Cox, etc. could easily prove to be just as good.
Chris Britton got a ton of outs for one year for the Orioles.
We’ve got a ton of potentially great bullpen arms in the minors. No need to look Chris Ray’s way.
Perhaps a Mark Teixeira in July.
Don’t forget Whelan.
He is a darker horse than Sanchez. The lingering injury is very scary, given the lack of information. But the guy strikes out tons of people. If he can get his control in order, he can be a real legit bullpen arm.
As has been mentioned, ridding the team of players we did not want nor need, removing a huge chunk of salary AND bringing in anyone to help the team is fantastic.
Ohlendorf – Big leaguer
Gonzales – Hitting the ball well. Big league utility guy at minimum
Sanchez – If he recovers from surgery – high caliber big leaguer
Whelan – Lots of upside, questions of injury and control
Pete, you normally show a lot of respect for the work Cash has done rebuilding the system but this post is a very skewed look at the two trades. As others have said althought the guys haven’t produced for the Yankees yet, it is partly because they are prospects. I don’t think they were supposed to be the nucleus of our playoff roster.
Tabata, Gardner and Betances haven’t produced the goods yet in NY either. Best try to trade them for a utility man eh?
Sanchez has a history of injuries,so he was a risk, but with the pitching depth we have in the minors he was a risk worth taking. He could be Mo’s replacement when he gets back. He could be the guy who makes it possible to keep Joba in the rotation.
Viz threw lot of good innings last yr. Imagine what a mess the bullpen would have been without him. Gonzalez is a brilliant defender who has hit about .330 for the last 6 months.
When these two trades were made Cash was the talk of the winter meetings because his took one injury prone pitcher with an ERA above 5, and one player who had lost his everyday job, both of whom were sullen and disruptive characters, with $26M left on the books and turned them into 4 promising pitchers, a set up man for whom we just got an extra draft pick, and a great SS prospect.
It might have been better to pay Johnson to join Pavano in the treatment room and Sheffield to mouth off about Torre everyday though eh?
As for Matsui, if he will consent to a trade – which he suggested in the summer he would, then he could be a good candidate for a trade. I’d like to see a lefty pitcher come back. I would also like to see Gardner get a chance in NY. Cash might wait till next summer though to see what happens with Abreu in the off season though. If he wont take a 1 or 2 yr deal (which I suspect he will) we might be better keeping Matsui in the team for his left handed bat and power potential. With Gardner, Jackson and Tabata to join the outfield over the next couple of years we don’t want Abreu on too long a contract.
I can’t understand the desire to trade Matsui. How would the team replace his consistent numbers? Does anyone really expect Giambi to stay healthy all season and put up 2006 numbers as opposed to 2007 numbers now that he is two years removed from that season?
Duncan is a nice player, but I would have to believe that if he was anything even remotely special GMs would have inquired as to his availability in trades during the offseason.
Matsui had a bad hammy in April 2007 and his knees(playing most of your career on turf has a tendency to do these things) started failing him in August, but in between he managed to put up his career norms in OPS/BA/RBIs. I expect no different this year, but without the nagging injuries.
Or Brian Cashman could turn some of his extra parts (a center fielder here, a pitching prospect there) into a player this July.——P Abe…
Perhaps if the Braves fall flat and are way out of contention at the trade deadline, perhaps a trade and long-term extension for Mark Teixeira? Especially if The Big G is on the disabled list?
What would it take? Perhaps Alan Horne and Brett Gardner? They wouldn’t be able to get much, seeing as he is a free agent next year…unless they pull a Jim Bowden a la Soriano/Nats.
You have to figure a GM would rather get one, poss two decent prospects than get a draft pick for an impending free agent at the deadline on a bust team.
Imagine if the Yankees pitching holds up beautifully… and the only hole on the team is at 1B. Would trading for Big Tex be an impuls move when he’s a free agent next year?
Trade for him and sign him to 6 x $120, perhaps 6 x $149 ?
I still look at Matsui as a very dangerous hitter. He has had some problems coming back from injury, probably because he hasn’t had to deal with it very much in his career. I also think he may be one of those guys that isn’t used to DHing. If he can get over his knee injury and contribute like he did before his wrist injury the bottom of our lineup will be better than the heart of most teams’ lineups with Cano-Posada-Matsui hitting 6-7-8.
“hmmm April 4th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I don’t dislike Matsui, but this is a terrible argument.”
I don’t agree. To restate: Matsui up with a man on third less than two outs equals a run. He is one of if not THE best in baseball at this. How many times has A-rod been up in the same situation (like last night for example) and failed to have a productive AB. Isn’t this why a lot of Yankee fans have trouble with him?
I’m not saying that Matsui is in A-Rod’s league but with a runner on third and less than two out I’d take Hidecki every time. (and get more RBIs)
Brian M is right on—dealing Sheffield and Johnson was addition by subtraction. I would add two things. First, whenever you trade for prospects you gamble, and sometimes they pan out, sometimes they don’t. So it’s not really fair to look at these trades in comparison with each other—rather look at them in the aggregate—we got a mediocre reliever who turned into a first round choice, a good-fielding minor league shortstop, and a bunch of pitching prospects, one of whom is with the team. And let’s give it another two years before we can really evaluate them. Second, Sheffield for all of his homers and line drives could be a real rally killer. How many times did he come up with men on in scoring position and less than two outs and hit a huge popup to the infield—leaving the runners where they were, where a fly ball or even a ground ball to the right side would have plated a run and set up another. Plus he was nonexistent in the postseason.
I haven’t read the responses but this is poor reporting. The Yankees traded Sheffield for Sanchez + 0thers knowing that Sanchez would have to have TJ surgery, just because he hasn’t produced yet doesn’t make him a bust