Game 12: Yankees at Red Sox
-
- April
- 12
YANKEES
Johnny Damon LF
Melky Cabrera CF
Bobby Abreu RF
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Jason Giambi 1B
Jorge Posada DH
Robinson Cano 2B
Jose Molina C
Alberto Gonzalez SS
Mike Mussina RHP
RED SOX
Jacoby Ellsbury CF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
David Ortiz DH
Manny Ramirez LF
Kevin Youkilis 3B
J.D. Drew RF
Jason Varitek C
Sean Casey 1B
Julio Lugo SS
Josh Beckett RHP
Notes: It’s a sunny, nearly cloudless day in Boston and actually 72 degrees. … Just talked to Phil Hughes, a former Red Sox fan who will be starting at Fenway Park for the first time tomorrow. Clay Buchholz told the Boston writers he used to be a Yankees fan because he played shortstop growing up and idolized Derek Jeter.
UPDATE, 3:56 p.m.: Here’s a Derek Jeter update for you: The Captain took BP, then he fielded groundballs for seven minutes (like a nerd, I counted: 31) and then he ran in left field, from the foul line to center field about five times back and forth. He snuck into the clubhouse before we had a chance to talk to him. But via PR maven Jason Zillo, Jeter said he had no setbacks.
UPDATE, 4;19 p.m.: Mrs. A-Rod is due to have their second child sometime next week, so Alex will be getting a couple of days off. He and Cano are the only Yankees to have played every game so far.
UPDATE, 4:37 p.m.: Had Gonzalez run through the bag there, he might have been safe. Bobby Valentine once made a great point about diving into first: If it gets you there faster, why don’t Olympic sprinters do it?
UPDATE, 4:48 p.m.: There’s some serious dark clouds headed over the park. They’re low, too. Could mean some rain. It went from a day game to a night game like that.
UPDATE, 4:52 p.m.: The weird Independence Day cloud is moving away. No rain or aliens yet. … Meanwhile David Ortiz is 0 for his last 15 and 3 for 41 this season. That’s .073 for those of you who didn’t attend UMass-Amherst.
UPDATE, 5:04 p.m.: Official scorer Mike Shalin is going to have some explaining to do if Josh Beckett doesn’t give up another hit. He ruled that Robbie Cano’s grounder to second base in the third inning that Dustin Pedroia fielded then dropped was a single. So far, that’s been it for the Yankees.
UPDATE, 5;13 p.m.: Shalin is off the hook, the great Jose Molina just singled up the middle. Molina has hit safely in all eight games he has started this season.
UPDATE, 5:27 p.m.: Gonzalez’s base-running got the Yankees the go-ahead run. He smartly tagged up when Melky flew to center, getting over to third when Ellsbury made a sliding catch. He then took an good secondary lead and got to the plate when Beckett threw a wild pitch that bounced a few feet away.
Smart move by the Yankees (so far, at least) bringing up the AG to play shortstop instead of using Betemit.
UPDATE, 5:37 p.m.: Ortiz, wow. What a struggle for him. Meanwhile, do you walk Manny here? I do. Or at least give him nothing good.
UPDATE, 5:28 p.m.: Like I said. Now it’s 3-2 Sox. That’s a terrible pitch.
UPDATE, 6:12 p.m.: It’s getting dark here again and there was a flash of lightning just now.
UPDATE, 6:21 p.m.: It’s raining now, pretty hard. … Wait, now it’s a rain delay. Papelbon was on the mound warming up to face A-Rod with two on and two out in the eighth.
UPDATE, 6:55 p.m.: The rain is starting to let up. The radar indicates that it should be clear enough to play soon.
UPDATE, 7:15 p.m.: They’re rolling up the tarp now. A-Rod vs. Papelbon in 20-25 minutes or so.
UPDATE, 7:25 p.m.: OK, bad news. There is more rain coming and they’re going to retarp. Is retarp a word? It is now. The tarp came off but they didn’t roll it up. The players even came out on the field.
So it can rain all game in Kansas City and they keep playing. But the threat of rain causes a delay in Boston. Then there are the Yankees, who called off Opening Day for no apparent reason. It all makes perfect sense.
UPDATE, 7:30 p.m.: The umpires knew what they were doing. It’s pouring now. By now, A-Rod could have studied every pitch Papelbon has ever thrown. I’m sure he must be getting some swings somewhere.
UPDATE, 7:37 p.m.: What will A-Rod do against Papelbon? Vote in the poll over to the right.
UPDATE, 8:04 p.m.: They’re pulling the tarp again. We’ll see if it stays off this time.
UPDATE, 8:10 p.m.: The game is scheduled to get started at 8:25 p.m.
UPDATE, 8:30 p.m.: The poll votes are in:
Get a hit: 339
Make an out: 126
Walk:45
Yell “Ha!” at Red Sox, sparking brawl: 138
Game about to start up again.
UPDATE, 8:35 p.m.: We waited all that time for a three-pitch strikeout?
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Let’s Go Yankees!
mmm…irony…
Also, cue the people lambasting girardi for taking Matsui out of the lineup in favor of Damon, who will then also complain about the team’s lack of steals.
Hmmm..what’s Matsui’s stats against Beckett compared to Posada’s? It would seem like a good idea to keep Matsui as the DH if the stats don’t say otherwise.
Pretty funny that Hughes was a Sox fan and Buchholz a Yankee fan. I think Clay will be a good pitcher in this league even though he seems kinda like a junk baller. Hughes on the other hand will be great someday.
why is Matsui not playing? Keep Damon on the bench i’m so sick of this guy.
Damon is better in the outfield. Damon will come around!
Haha Bucholz isn’t even close to being a junkballer. He is a power pitcher, good fastball, sick curve, ridiculous changeup. His stuff is very very good
Buchholz is not a power pitcher nor a junker baller….He is a guy with a solid low 90’s fastball sits 89-93 who throws off his very good secondary pitches…
No need to go to the two extremes hes neither a junker baller nor a power pitcher….
Looks like the Yanks will finally have some nice warm weather. Maybe Derek will be able to run and test his leg.
Bucholtz is more comparable to Hughes. I’ve read other places where everyone wants to compare Bucholtz to Joba.
Alberto Gonzalez has hit better than Betemit. If continues moderate success and can play 2b the why do we have Betemit?
“If continues moderate success and can play 2b”
Because he’s never played much 2B. At all. If they want him to be a util guy, he needs to learn that skill in the minors.
Fan are naive of the game….they really believe they can just discharge player out of the roster at any second. Betemit is on the team and he is there until we can find a better solution. but for now people who know nothing about baseball like, “Yankee4life” need to chill.
Fans*****
“Damon is better in the outfield. ”
Really doesn’t matter too much in fenway with the tiny LF they have.
Frankly, I think it’s the “we need a prototypical lead-off man” thinking. And, also, that jeter’s out and Cano has been AWFUL in the 2-hole. Right now, I’d rather have Damon and Melky there than Melky and Cano. Given how Hideki’s been hitting, I’d keep him in at DH too. Maybe PH posada for Cano late in the game against a lefty if need be and then put betemit at 2B.
Jax, that’s what I was thinking watching him last night. Saw Buchholtz pitch the no-hitter but it was at a bar and I was in and out of the game, so last night was the first night I really watched and it is almost like he is a carbon copy of Hughes. Low to mid fastball with what seems to be late action, big, sweeping breaking ball, and an obvious need for a really good third pitch (just like Hughes needs that changeup). Hate to say it, but I think Buchholtz is gonna be good for a long time. Will probably be the Hughes/Buchholtz debate for years to come…….which would be fun
“Will probably be the Hughes/Buchholtz debate for years to come…….which would be fun”
There are some who take Buchholz over Joba right now, because Clay commands his change already, which they feel offsets the velocity differential between him and Joba.
Personally, I think that Hughes and Buchholz will wind up being comparable if they both stay healthy. And Joba could wind up better than both. Or, if he falls in love with relieving and/or the organization is dumb, he could wind up closing without ever realizing his potential.
Can we delcare that the attorney general is a better baseball player than lugo?
From what I have seen, Joba’s stuff is much better than Buchholtz and, since Joba can seemingly control ALL his pitches (99MPH fastball, best slider in the game, good curve and change) I don’t think there is a comparison. Maybe it was just the game last night but it seems that Buchholtz is EXACTLY like Hughes in that he commands his fastball and curve and had a harder time with his change, but that is just off of last night. Like I said, the similarities seemed striking between the two…………as far as Joba, I have been torn. I agree that his ultimate value is as a starter because he is so talented and could be an ace in line with Santana or Halladay or Beckett, but, then again, it seems that he is MUCH more comfortable in his reliver role (seemed like, from the quotes, he enjoys it more and feels more comfortable) so it might be that he ultimate is best left to his role of setup man and then closer in the future.
“I think that Hughes and Buchholz will wind up being comparable if they both stay healthy. And Joba could wind up better than both”
I agree like many others do.Joba is one in a million you dont watch stuff like the one he possess very often, lets just hope he stays healthy.
I FOR SOME REASON do not like hughes to much, I believe he will be a 4th or a 3rd starter at best. He’s receiving to much hype to early.
versus Beckett
matsui 3/14
posada 6/15
Pete,
what happened?
ESPN said “we were hoping to get a Yankee beat writer but unfortunately we couldn’t”
“Alberto Gonzalez has hit better than Betemit. If continues moderate success and can play 2b the why do we have Betemit?”
I really have a distaste for these types of comments, as I remember last season Bet did get a big hit for us here and there, lets not act like he’s a scrub.
Damn that Amalie Benjamin is a rookie at her work but she has a look to her …I’m sorry ladies
No New York beat writer? What happened?
Pete, you snubbed ESPN news? Way to go.
What happened to Pete?
Against Beckett:
Matsui .214
Posada .400
Damon .238
Looks like Girardi likes resting his older players, and given Matsui’s numbers against Beckett, seems like today would be a good day to rest him. The offense seems to be coming around, so I’m not too worried.
LETS GO MOOSE!!
amalie benjamin is kinda hot
Here he is!!
Pete on ESPN News!!
they called him
“Pete Rice of the Journal News”
I have a question….who thinks Joba will end up being better than Liriano? I debated this with my co-worker and my point is Joba will be better because of his body type. He will be able to get deeper into games and hopefully stay injury free for a longer time. Watta yu’ll think?
she is hot
Pete….pete….pete….pete….pete…..jajajajaja….the writer of the people…
“it seems that he is MUCH more comfortable in his reliver role”
Based on the 30 innings he’s thrown out of the pen in his life, versus years and years of starting?
I don’t care. He’s had plenty of success as a starter and needs to commit to that mentally and work at it once it’s his time. He says it’s all about the team, right? Well, the team is best served by having him come out every five days and have the ability to throw 6-8 high-quality innings. If his talent fails him, ok, move him back to the pen. But falling in love with the media-fed gunslinger-power-reliever mentality is ultimately bad for both the team AND him. He’ll make WAY more money as a starter than as a reliever, in addition to helping the team more.
“From what I have seen, Joba’s stuff is much better than Buchholtz and, since Joba can seemingly control ALL his pitches (99MPH fastball, best slider in the game, good curve and change) I don’t think there is a comparison. Maybe it was just the game last night but it seems that Buchholtz is EXACTLY like Hughes in that he commands his fastball and curve and had a harder time with his change, but that is just off of last night.”
And, like I said, every talent evaluation I’ve read puts Joba and Buchholz right next to each other. I think that he does command that change better than we saw, and that curve is definitely better than Joba’s.
HE said pete WRITES for the journel news…wow clear ur ears my friend
Pete, good job on espn! Certainly the NYY beat writer outperformed the BOS beat writer.
Boy, we’re taking this rivalry to new heights when we start comparing the won/loss records of the beat writers of the respective teams!!
That ESPN studio host is pretty poor. You would think he could read the name of the guest off the teleprompter.
if thats the case we should trade phil hughes for clay buchholz?
(i’m kidding)
Moose is gonna smoke Mr. BeckJerk. Yankees win 10-2….SWEET !
Hughes for Buchholz??
DiMaggio for Williams, Part Deux?
yeh one thing is Amalie is hot
Whozat you always on point. Are you a scout?
well, one battle we win easily is the best beat reporter, that redsox gal stumbled talking about boston, pete was just cool, let it just roll, boom…boom.. here is the info.
whozat,
we need to save your post (or CB’s, or any of the others who have had to defend Joba being a starter).
It’s getting tiring having to respond to a new “Joba should stay in the bullpen” post every day.
Why is everyone killing the ESPN host, he introduced perte just, fine. HE may have mumbled that he ‘writes’ for the journel news, but thats it. you guys are real sensitive.
*pete…hmm wheres that edit button
nice job on ESPN Pete
too bad they wasted one of the two questions they asked you on the Pettite HGH crap.
they should have asked you something worthwhile.
“my point is Joba will be better because of his body type. He will be able to get deeper into games and hopefully stay injury free for a longer time.”
I think it’s impossible to tell at this point. What’s Liriano’s delivery look like? Is he max-effort all the time? Has he ever shown an inability to go deep in games?
He’s also a lefty, which will help him put up better results over time if he stays healthy.
They’re both great, if healthy. Hopefully Joba’s conditioning has alleviated the health concerns that caused him to drop in the draft.
yea for real, just publish a response, post it on the internet, and the next time some mis-inofmred fan who thinks francesa’s word is gospel blabs about jobas a reliever we can just point them to the link
see they even realize jobas potential in Denmark haha, speaking to the choir here man…
“we need to save your post (or CB’s, or any of the others who have had to defend Joba being a starter).”
I’m sure there are articles out there that address it. I’ll whip up a firefox extension that automatically posts a link to one on this blog with the push of a button.
(no, I won’t…but I could!)
Pete,
you need to set up a FAQ section
1. Q: why should Joba NOT stay in the bullpen? A: see CB or whozat’s post
2. Q: what is wrong with Phil Hughes and the radar gun? A: nothing.
Yikes…. Amalie Benjamin … is hot, strange taste around here… I guess you guys like that plain jane librarian look.
“Whozat you always on point. Are you a scout?”
No. I just hate my job and procrastinate at work by reading about the Yankees. A lot
I’ve learned an incredible amount in the last year or two by reading Goldman over at yesnetwork.com, Pete here, baseball analyst, baseball america and baseball prospectus, all that stuff. And listening to Jim Kaat and Al Leiter and, now, Coney on the YES broadcasts. It’s really made watching the games vastly more interesting.
“Yikes…. Amalie Benjamin … is hot, strange taste around here… I guess you guys like that plain jane librarian look.”
I find the liberian clean look sexy, I guess your into the slutty look
Mick,
agreed. she’s ok but I wouldn’t throw “hot” around with her. Although it’s very hard for me to consider any Sox chick as hot so maybe I am biased.
librarian *
“Amalie Benjamin … is hot, strange taste around here… I guess you guys like that plain jane librarian look.”
She looks like a real person. And seems smart and into sports. Why would that not be interesting to a bunch of dudes on a baseball blog?
Whozat,
It doesn’t matter that he has been a starter for his entire minor league career (which was absolutely no time at all really), it matters what he is MOST comfortable with. That’s all nice and fine to say “he needs to suck it up and get out there as a starter” but the fact is, if he isn’t as EFFECTIVE for any reason, then he is more valuable as a reliever. Like I said, I have been torn because I AGREE that his ultimate value would be as a shut down starter, but if HE doesn’t want the role, you can dream about a day where you turn to a kid with his talent and say “my way or the highway” but those days are long gone my friend. It DOES matter what he wants. His quotes in spring, when he was moved back to the pen role, were MOST telling. He talked about “being back in the saddle” and it being “like riding a bike” and him “feeling like it was old times.” If that is the case, then the Yanks might not be served forcing him into the rotation. All things being equal, he is more valuable as a starter, no question, but things might not be equal and that is a fact…………..as far as talent evaluators……..honestly, I could care less. Joba wasn’t even on the radar screen last year, and I’m sure those same talent evaluators had Hughes rated MUCH higher than Joba. And as far as evaluation, the Yanks certainly don’t subscribe to that idea since they were willing to at least discuss Hughes for Santana and made Joba COMPLETELY untouchable. By the way, the Sox were willing to discuss Buchholtz for Santana as well. Use the eye test……who has the better stuff?
Santana just allowed HR # 2
Joba has 3 plus pitches he can throw for strikes, with a fourth (a changeup) not too far behind.
Those guys become aces, not relief pitchers, and certainly not setup guys.
The comparison made by some in the media to Papelbon makes no sense.
First off, Papelbon is a closer, not a setup guy. Joba isn’t going to be wasted as a setup guy for 3 years, the length of Mariano’s contract.
They also aren’t moving Mariano for Joba in the closers role.
Second, Papelbon needed to go to the bullpen for 2 reasons. One, his health. His shoulder simply can’t handle a 200 inning workload. Second, he can only throw 2 pitches for strikes. A fastball and a splitter.
Joba’s arsonal is so much more than any young pitcher in the game its not funny.
Nobody, not Hughes, Liriano, Buchholz, Lester, not a single pitcher under the age of 23 in the game, possess his stuff. Its not even debatable. He’s that good.
The only people crowing for him to remain in the bullpen in his career are either people who know nothing about baseball (Mike Francesa) and people who haven’t ever seen him as a starter (Mike Francesa and about 95% of the of the fans and media).
This kid was so dominant as a starter last year, he rocketed through the system.
He’s too good to remain a setup guy. Right now, its the best place for him. The future? Its not even a debate to those who truly understand the game.
The Yankees are playing this perfectly. They are saying and doing the right things to develop him. Both for the short term and long term.
Just enjoy the ride with Joba and don’t get caught up in silly debates over where he belongs.
John,
I have never heard Joba say he didnt want to start and if you’ve heard him say he’s more comfortable coming out of the bullpen, please provide a link to the quote.
The Sox never put Buchholz on the table for Santana (at least it was never reported).
You don’t waste Joba’s arm in the pen. IF he fails as a starter, after a large enough sample, of course you may consider putting him back in the pen. Don’t bet on that happening.
Fran, I’m thinking that maybe today is going to be Moose’s day to shine. Maybe the Yanks will get to the big hayseed Beckett eventually and take the game but by not so many runs.
Anyway I hope this prediction is right since it would be nice to take the series and get it done today!
See you around game time.
Ok
She’s into sports …has a job… I’ll say she not bad if she is a good cook, since that is a dying art in society.
Btw the redsox CHUMP
sj44,
my understanding is that joba is in the pen for two reasons, to manage his innings limit and to wait for other relievers to come aboard. given that melancon has struggled a little bit, what are your thoughts as to timeline? I fully realize that it’s only a few games and that melancon has serious game. Do you think he needs a little more time, or is the all star break still reasonable?
“the Sox were willing to discuss Buchholtz for Santana as well. Use the eye test……who has the better stuff?”
Santana without a question
“Use the eye test……who has the better stuff?”
By “stuff” do you mean “velocity”?
Because I don’t. Buchholz has a better curve and a great change. His command with these, and his FB, makes it a good pitch too. Joba has a better fastball and a better slider, but his change is only OK and his curve is also good. So…each has good command, two plus pitches and a third good offering, and a fourth ok pitch.
“His quotes in spring, when he was moved back to the pen role, were MOST telling.”
Then he’s not interested in what’s best for the team. And for a 22 year old kid, that’s not ok.
SJ44,
can you help me to understand why Papelbon is so effective? He hardly ever throws the splitter and hitters must be sitting fastball every pitch.
I know he typically locates well and hits 95-96, but he has far exceeded what I would expect from watching him throw. I have to assume he has great late life (as I’ve heard you say regarding Hughes) or has a deceptive delivery or some other form of deception.
I can see why he’d be a great reliever, but this great??
SJ44,
Again, the one point I have brought up and will continue to bring up is this: how do figure in what JOBA wants to do and what he feels most comfortable doing? Like I have said time and again, his GREATEST value is as a starter, no question, but if mentally he LOVES his relief role and feels more comfortable there, moving him might not work out. Some starters are incapable of moving to the pen, some relievers can’t move into the rotation. Joba is an oddity in that he has the capability to do both (four pitches, making him a starter quality pitcher, yet two pitches in a slider and fastball so dominate he can close out games). I have been a HUGE supporter of Joba as a starter, but his quotes in the spring and his seeming desire to stay in the bullpen have somewhat changed my mind. Not completely, but I do think it is something that has to be factored in, and while I understand Whozat’s point, I don’t think it is as easy as saying “he needs to do what they tell him to do.” If it were that easy with ANY of these guys, sports would be a much different.
Just did a little stat and number crunching
Kyle Farnsworth against Boston….
Over the course of 7 games Farnsworth pitched 6.2 innings; his numbers were nothing short of complete awesomeness: 12 base runners, 2 home runs allowed, a 6.75 ERA.
John,
what evidence do you have that Joba wants to stay in the pen?
I have yet to see any…. so your argument isn’t very compelling. A bunch of “ifs” that have nothing behind them.
Boston Dave- One word “location”. that’s why papelbon is so effective. he locates his pitches just like Mariano.
Yeah SJ.. Joba will be starting net yr for sure… No more Moose and maybe no more Pettitte.
He hs thrown 5 innings so far for the year. at the allstar breakhe will have 65 or so innings.. Then they can keep him in his role thru the year or figure it out.
Talent like Joba cannot be wasted in the pen.. Papalebon is 27 Joba is 23……..
Trisha - I am backing you. You’ve been right so far!
“I have been a HUGE supporter of Joba as a starter, but his quotes in the spring and his seeming desire to stay in the bullpen have somewhat changed my mind.”
Perhaps it was because everyone, including Joba, basically knew he was going to the pen to start the year. Under those conditions, I could see how pitching as a starter in spring would feel kind of…awkward and pointless to him.
tease,
I get that… but he does miss his spots occasionally (more than Mariano IMO) and has a ridiculous ERA. Mariano has the insane movement on his cutter. Pap’s fastballs are seemingly with much less movement.
I guess that’s enough though. I wasn’t sure if he had great late life on his fastball which made it very hard for hitters to time their swings.
I like it when people use Joba’s quotes the wrong way in the Spring all he said was he was happy to know his role, he knows he is a SP the organization has put the blueprint out already, only reason this is question is because a couple of FAT BUMS ! from WFAN can’t keep thier opinion away from facts. The organization since day 1 has let Joba know he is a future SP why else would he be working on his 4 pitches in bullpen sessions. Everyone knows the deal except for that small % that get so annoying w/ the he needs to be a CL talk.
Santana lets another HR go WTF
Santana gives up another HR
Santana continues to give up lots of home-runs.
Joba has started his entire life. He has pitched a little over 30 innings in relief in his entire career.
Johan Santana signed a 137.5 million dollar contract as an “ace” of a staff.
Mariano, the greatest relief pitcher in the history of the game, signed a 42 million dollar deal.
What do you think he is going to choose? lol
Seriously though, his stuff translates to being a starter. Too many plus pitches to waste in the ‘pen.
He says the right things publicly. Privately, and the numbers back it up, he will be in the rotation and happy to be there.
Dave, Papelbon is effective for two reasons. One, location. He, like Mariano, can paint. That trumps guys wiht only velocity every time.
Second, he has no fear of failure. The greatest trait a relief pitcher can have, next to command, is a short memory.
Add it up, and you have a great closer.
Its not just velocity. If it was, guys like Farnsworth would be unhittable.
Its the entire package and Papelbon has it. Its a rare commodity.
“what evidence do you have that Joba wants to stay in the pen?”
When the media, unsurprisingly, mobbed him once it was official that he was going back to the pen, they were asking if going back would be difficult. He said no, it’s like riding a bike, getting back in the saddle, it feels fine, it’s good, I like it yadda yadda. He also mentioned that he wasn’t just letting his slider go when he was prepping to be a starter. Given that he’s been a starting pitcher for years (don’t forget all of college), I don’t think that should be a problem when they transition him back.
Boston Dave-
“I have to assume he has great late life (as I’ve heard you say regarding Hughes) or has a deceptive delivery or some other form of deception.”
Alot of pitcher have late life on their fastball is just the location they have problems with. To locate your fastball on a consistent basist is the part most pitcher have a problem with. Thats why Mariano is so good, he is able to throw the same pitch 100 times in the same spot. Pitching is a combination of great arm and great control. If a pitcher lacks one of the other. He will not be great.
Whozat,
It isn’t just about velocity, even though I do think, when you’re talking about someone who can throw triple digits with accuracy, that has to be taken into account. Let’s look at the two pitchers and compare: Joba has the much better fastball and has perhaps the best slider in the game. He then has a good curve and a decent change. Buchholtz has the better curve and I’ll take your word for it that he has the better change (wasn’t a great one last night but that’s only one game). However, Joba’s two best pitches (fastball, slider) seem infinitely more devastating than Buchholtz two best pitches (fastball, curve), and Joba’s accuracy with his pitches is incredible.
As far as “doing what is best for the team” I don’t necessarily believe it is a question of selfishness. I have no doubt Joba would move into the rotation without any objections, but the question is, mentally, would he feel comfortable. For instance, there is absolutely no reason why a batter’s position on the field or even their position in the lineup should effective their approach to hitting, right? A hitter should hit. Some guys can. Mattingly could hit anywhere you put him. Two hole? Three hole? Four hole? Didn’t matter, he was the same guy. Jeter is a lot like that. Leadoff, two hole, three hole, he takes the same approach. Then look at as guy like Giambi, who has it in his head he is a better hitter when playing the field. It doesn’t mean he refuses to DH, or that he storms out of the manager’s office when he is asked to to so, or demands a trade, or any “selfish” act. It simply means that he isn’t comfortable with the role. That is my only point about Joba. I HOPE, personally, he takes to being a starter and it GREAT. I think the team would be better off. My question is whether he has gotten to a point mentally where he WANTS to be a closer/reliever and that will effect him. That’s my only point
Gavin Floyd with a no hitter throuh 6 against the mighty Tiggers lineup.
Boston Dave-
“I get that… but he does miss his spots occasionally (more than Mariano IMO) and has a ridiculous ERA.”
I agree with you.
“he takes to being a starter and it GREAT.”
He has been a starter for his whole life. Doesn’t compare to the Giambi thing, who has been playing in the field for his whole life.
“However, Joba’s two best pitches (fastball, slider) seem infinitely more devastating than Buchholtz two best pitches (fastball, curve),”
a) Joba won’t be throwing triple digits with accuracy at all times. mid-high 90s, yes. And that’s awesome.
b) Buch’s two best pitches are, I believe his curve and his change, and both can be devastating.
boston Dave-
Does Papelbon have a flat fastball? I can’t see movement on it. If is a flat fastball, i’ll be surprised of how succesful he is.
I don’t get to watch him pitch much thats why I ask.
“I have no doubt Joba would move into the rotation without any objections, but the question is, mentally, would he feel comfortable. ”
my man do you hear yourself ! this is a pitcher that started all his life prior to the sample innings of last year, how is he not going to be comfortable it’s not like he’s going to forget how to throw a ball to the plate, he handles pressure well and that’s the first sign of an ACE pitcher, only question would be endurance which everyone should know is not Joba’s problem.
John,
Joba has been a starter for 90% of his career. You have ZERO evidence that he will be more comfortable in the pen.
Give it a rest.
After seeing Johan give up another HR, I am just happy that we didn’t trade for him. I love Johan but the domino effect of that trade would have hurt the Yankees.
A. We would have lost 2/5 of our current starting rotation
B. Our best defending OFer who has actually won us two games this year.
C. No solid bridge to Mo as Joba would be in the starting rotation already and on a 140 IP limit.
Instead we have a full rotation that will only get better when Joba becomes a starter while still having him dominate guys in the 7th/8th innings of games in the first half of the season and Melky who is off to a great start.
Not to mention possibly losing AJax or Jose Tabata who are starting to hit their stride down in Trenton and/or Alan Horne, who although just got injured, had a solid first start in Scranton.
Boston Dave, here are some quotes from an article by Mark Feisand on March 21st. I didn’t realize I needed to list my bibliography on the LoHud Message Board, but here you go, take away from it what you will. What I took away from it was someone who seemed to be saying he was more comfortable in a familiar bullpen role.
“Just getting going, it’s like riding a bike,” Chamberlain said. “My arm actually warmed up quicker than I thought it would. I’ve been getting stretched out and taking my time, but I tried to make it as realistic as I could. My arm reacted really well.”
Chamberlain admitted that he was more aggressive yesterday than he had been all spring, throwing with everything he had on every pitch. Kennedy noticed the same thing, adding that it would be impossible to do that over the course of 100 pitches.
“He hasn’t skipped a beat at all; he looks like he did last year,” Kennedy said. “It’s totally different when he starts and relieves. He looked totally different today. ”
Chamberlain said he attacked the strike zone and didn’t try to “baby” his slider yesterday, allowing it to have the sharp break he showed late last summer.
“You don’t necessarily consciously hold something back, but you cut something off because you know you have four, five or six innings to go,” he said. “Knowing it’s one inning, being aggressive and throwing as hard as I can, it was better.”
tease,
I wouldnt say Pap’s fastball is flat, but I dont see enough movement on it to warrant the number of swings and misses he gets.
It leads me to believe that hitters just cant time his fastball… which is why I was asking SJ44 or someone with more knowledge on that then myself.
NYYFan you could say right now Melky is our best clutch hitter this season so far.
Not to mention AJax and Tabata who are starting to hit their stride in Trenton and Alan Horne who, although recently injured, had a solid Scranton debut.
Sorry for the double post.
John,
If that is it, then I guess we can put it to rest. You have no evidence.
Its fine, because we all agree that Joba is better off in the pen. So, your lack of evidence is a good thing.
John,
If that is it, then I guess we can put it to rest. You have no evidence.
Its fine, because we all agree that Joba is better off in the rotation*. So, your lack of evidence is a good thing.
*rotation
I’m confused by something………….Joba Chamberlain has pitched as a starter his entire life, which means absolutely ZERO considering the ONLY experience he has in the majors has been as a reliever, and the only success he has had in the majors has been as a reliever. You don’t honestly believe that, perhaps, Joba has sat down and thought about the fact that he has been DOMINATE in one role and has never even attempted to pitch in the majors in another role? Maybe he feels more comfortable in a role he KNOWS he can succeed in? He has dominated in the MAJORS as a reliever. We can only GUESS he will be dominate as a starter………..by the way, Mariano Rivera was a starter all his life as well until coming up to the majors
I’m planning a trip to Montreal and Quebec are there any french canadians out there?
Gavin Floyd through 7 innings…. Tiggers with zero hits
Boston Dave, perfect timing to miss executing your sentence ;o)
John,
There is a general consensus that only a fool would prevent Joba from attempting to be a starter in the majors.
If you actually think you’re going to change any minds with the argument you’ve laid out, best of luck to you.
“by the way, Mariano Rivera was a starter all his life as well until coming up to the majors”
oh man I wish there was an ignore button for you, the only reason Mo was moved was because he didn’t have that great of a 2nd or 3rd pitch, your evidence really stinks. Your lucky Whozat is in a good mood he usually comes through w/ the stats of each players and proves how lopsidedly stupid this opinion of yours is.
Joba’s future is in the rotation.
If Santana was a free agent, there is no doubt in my mind he would be a Yankee today.
The entire Santana debate was not just about money. It was about money AND players.
When you add BOTH, no pitcher, not Johan Santana, not anybody, is worth giving up your starting CF, top young starter (Kennedy) and best starter (Wang), which was the last Twins offer to the Yankees.
Its also not worth giving up your starting CF, 2 top young arms (Kennedy and Hughes) AND another prospect.
No player who only plays once every five days is worth that bounty.
That’s why the Twins didn’t get what they wanted for him.
Its water under the bridge now. He’s a great pitcher. He’s just not worth what some were willing to give up to get him.
Wouter,
I know - I need to get out of that discussion!
what’s the next topic?
John, Mariano was actually given a shot as a starter in the majors: 10 GS, 50 IP, 3-3, 8 HR allowed, 5.94 ERA. That didn’t exactly work out.
Joba hasn’t had that chance yet.
Tigers are 5 outs away from hitting rock bottom.
Boston Dave,
Sorry, I do not have blood samples or forensics or hidden tapes, which is evidently what you are looking for. My point was that it seems Joba might be more comfortable in the bullpen role and, to back that up, I provided an article where he essential says “I felt more comfortable pitching today out of the bullpen,” but, you’re right, that’s not evidence. In that same article Chamberlain was quoted as saying “if it aint broke don’t fix it” with a big grin on his face. If by evidence you mean a quote where Joba says “I will only pitch out of the bullpen and will NEVER pitch in the rotation,” than yes, you are right, I have no evidence, but since NO ATHLETE would ever say that, even if they felt it, I think such “evidence” would be hard to come by.
Man, I’m watching Gavin Floyd pitch, but I’d almost forgotten what morons the Sox announcers are…
Reading your discussion about Joba and his role. Joba will pitch in whatever role the Yanks tell him.
“Chamberlain admitted that he was more aggressive yesterday than he had been all spring, throwing with everything he had on every pitch. Kennedy noticed the same thing, adding that it would be impossible to do that over the course of 100 pitches.”
This sounds like the Mariano influence. Mo was quoted in one of the NY papers the other day as saying that Joba should stay in the pen. Mo said that you don’t know if Joba could sustain his velocity and effectiveness in the course of starting a game and going through the rotation 3 times.
I still think that Joba should start. But I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing who was going in the 8th inning role.
and Edgar Renteria saves (or ruins) the day
Guess I jinxed him.
Mariano never had the minor league success as a starter Joba had. Not even close.
Joba was throwing 98-100, with location, in the 7th inning of starts last year.
Mariano never had 3 pitches he could throw for strikes in his ENTIRE career, let alone his minor league career. Joba already has 3 plus pitches.
It took Mariano years to make the majors. Joba made it, based on his starting ability, in under ONE year of professional ball. That’s amazing.
Even more amazing to do it as a Yankee. A team notorious for babying their young arms.
Folks get too blinded by 30 innings in the bullpen.
If that is to be his role, why aren’t the Blue Jays putting Halliday in the bullpen in front of BJ Ryan? Or, the Red Sox putting Beckett in front of Papelbon? Or, the Mets putting Santana in front of Wagner?
When you are talking about an elite arm like Joba, that’s the company we are talking about. Not comparing him to 8th inning setup guys.
Look at Chien Ming Wang last night and ask yourself, what would it be like if Joba Chamberlain was today’s starter?
How much tougher is it on teams to go Pettitte, Wang, Chamberlain and Hughes, back to back to back in a 4 game series?
I shudder to think how good this team can be if that ends up being the Top 4 guys in the rotation the second half of the year.
Please don’t let Muss pull a muscle in warmups!
I want him on that mound today!
John,
I will let your posts speak for themselves. The first thing I posted today was how tiring it was getting discussing the Joba staying in the pen debate.
Its a joke. If anyone else wants to discuss it with you, more power to them. I am tired of hearing and reading your nonsense.
Here’s how Youkilis will look like ten years from now.
Brandon,
I guess I am lucky everyone is in a good mood because then I would be pounded with the years worth of statistics showing how much more dominate Joba is as a major league starter than he is as a major league reliever………..oh wait, he has NEVER started a game in the majors…….oh wait, the ONLY success he has EVER had has been as a reliever, where he has become a cult hero coming in the eighth and closing players out. But I’m sure that isn’t something that has ever crossed his mind. I’m sure that a player like Joba would never, ever WANT to stay in a role where he knows he is utterly dominate and already beloved by the fan base. That would be stupid to believe. You are a wordsmith my friend. Your “logic” is beyond question. When you wrote “Joba’s future is in the rotation” I had never thought of it that way.
Matsui should be the DH today. Give Posada a day off. IMO
Boston Dave,
The fact that you no longer want to post in reponse to my posts is a great disappointment, considering your posts have consisted of “you have no evidence” and then the utterly devastating response of “me tired of talking, no want to talk no more.” But, before you go to your next Mensa meeting, please answer me this……..if you even READ my posts, answer me why my “point” of Joba personally possibly feeling more comfortable in the bullpen, the ONLY role he has known in the majors and the ONLY place he has had success, if a “stupid” point? I think I have been pretty clear stating that I think his greatest value would be as a starter, and I think I have also been pretty clear in stating that I don’t know what his true beliefs are, but I guess it is out of the realm of possibility that a young man who has become a cult hero in a certain role would want to stay in that role. I guess that is just a stupid point.
Santana gives up a 3rd homer
John,
can we at least agree that is makes sense to TRY Joba in the rotation before reaching any final conclusion?
Ha, another Santana homer.
make that 3 hr’s allowed by santana
U & I, that looks like Cano now.
Santana allows ANOTHER homerun.
John,
its not a stupid point. It’s just a discussion that is held almost EVERY day and you have added nothing NEW to the discussion.
It is my fault for engaging in it.
“It is my fault for engaging in it.”
yes it is.
JOHNNY DAMON BETTER GET A DAMN HIT TODAY
I haven’t officially checked. But looks like Sheffield has more steals than the Yanks as a team.
anti-mussina,
if the first 10 games are an indication, then there is a 70% chance he will.
of course it may be a little harder against Beckett.
“JOHNNY DAMON BETTER GET A DAMN HIT TODAY”
your going to break his legs
U & I
I dont think you need to check on that one.
I am guessing Sheff would love to trade some of his steals for team wins however
Boston Dave,
The one thing I guess we can both agree upon is that we both wish you had never decided to “respond” to my original post.
“I haven’t officially checked. But looks like Sheffield has more steals than the Yanks as a team.”
and even w/ that we still have the better record
John,
right on. Its probably best that we all take that advice with any of your future posts to avoid this type of unnecessary banter.
Well, in fact, I have as much steals as all the yankees combined ;o)
Today is an early season example of the problems the Tigers may encounter this year.
Willis got hurt yesterday and Leyland had to juggle the bullpen like crazy to massage a win.
Today, on a cold day, Verlander is up to 115 pitches in the 8th inning, losing it, and Leyland has confidence in nobody in that bullpen. They are now losing 4-0.
If the score holds up, they are 2-9 to start the year.
They traded away most of the viable pieces in their farm system in the Renteria and Willis/Cabrera deals.
They have to pray that Zumaya and Rodney come back and are at their effective levels almost from their first days back in the saddle. No easy feat.
In other words, they are like the 2002-2007 Yankees.
Not the way to win these days.
They are also in a tough division.
Gonna be tough for the Tigers unless their starters log lots of innings early in this season.
Even when they hit, and they will hit, they are going to need help in other areas or they aren’t making the playoffs.
140 million dollar payroll and no playoffs? That won’t make the folks happy in Detroit.
Boston Dave,
Very true……….upon further review, my post was mostly “pointless banter” especially when compared to your riveting “Matsui should be the DH today. Give Posada a day off. IMO” post. The height of intellectual debate. And in response, I would ask, where is your proof that Posada needs a day off? Must be because of all the games straight he has played behind the plate.
Glad we didn’t trade for Santana…5 ER today in Shea Stadium debut…early, but I would prefer the youngsters.
Kevin
Tigers getting the Wang treatment.
whats wrong with 03 and 04 yankees? if it wasn’t for idiot torre they would’ve won 2 more rings
Best news ever… Fox is not carrying the game which means I don’t have to mute out Tim McCarver… Has to be a good sign for the Yankees.
Sorry for those of you who have to listen to him…
if not fox, then who has the game in ny?
FYI - Some ERA+ leader amoungst active Pitchers, 1000+ IPs
01. Pedro Martinez (36) 160 R
08. Brandon Webb (29) 144 R
10. Johan Santana* (29) 142 L
15. Roy Oswalt (30) 139 R
16. Randy Johnson* (44) 138 L
24. Greg Maddux (42) 134 R
41. Roy Halladay (31) 128 R
42. Curt Schilling (41) 127 R
42. John Smoltz (41) 127 R
42. Mike Timlin (42) 127 R
59. Bob Wickman (39) 125 R
84. Mike Mussina (39) 122 R
92. Mark Buehrle* (29) 121 L
92. Derek Lowe (35) 121 R
106. Jake Peavy (27) 120 R
105. Barry Zito* (30) 120 L
119. Glavine (49) 119 L
134. Andy Pettitte* (36) 118 L
Someone here thinks Peavy is better then Webb?
Wang and many others are NOT here because then have less then 1000 IPs. However, this shows you the TOP ERA+ leaders who do.
Not including 2008, Wang’s Career ERA+ is 121.
Not including 2008, Beckett’s Career ERA+ is 115.
Pepper Brooks,
that is good news. I’m stuck with FOX. I need to get XM so I can mute them and listen on the radio.
“whats wrong with 03 and 04 yankees? if it wasn’t for idiot torre they would’ve won 2 more rings”
I swear I will never forgive him for bringing Weaver in Gm. 6 in Florida and not bunting vs Schilling
“if not fox, then who has the game in ny?”
FOX 5 in NY is carrying the game
P.S. The numbers are RANKING ALL-TIME, all pitchers.
Pedro has the best ERA+ in baseball history.
Compared to:
02. Lefty Grove* 148 L
03. Walter Johnson 147 R
09. Roger Clemens 143 R
16. Cy Young+ 138 R
then what the hell is Pepper Brooks talking about? out of market?
Bill…
sorry not in NY.. I am out west and Fox is giving us Arizona and Colorado…
Did Leyland mismanage this game? Was there no one to go to in the pen? He left Verlander in way too long.
Tigers are stinkin’ it up in Chicago. No relief in sight. When the hole is deep enough, stop digging. They would have to have a torrid 5-week stretch and hope that those above them get cold at the same time.
Steve Phillips really knows how to pick ‘em.
And the Tigers fall to 2-9
Shaky start to Verlander’s season
Best news ever… Fox is not carrying the game which means I don’t have to mute out Tim McCarver… Has to be a good sign for the Yankees.
Best news ever?
I’d rather have the ability to watch the game and deal with McCarver than not watch the game at all.
“Someone here thinks Peavy is better then Webb?”
Brandon Webb is one of the most under rated players in baseball.
When you look at his body of work it’s very impressive.
He is an example of how it can be misleading to only focus on a pitcher’s won-loss record.
I’m not one who thinks wins and losses are meaningless but Webb is a pitcher who is clearly better than what his record suggests because he’s pitched on some bad teams with really anemic offenses.
mel,
see SJ’s post
Dontrelle Willis getting hurt last night left their pen in a tough spot.
Tigers are in trubba.
I’m praying for Ubaldo Jimenez and Franklin Morales to suck so bad that they ask for Farnsy again.
really???
listening to McCarver is a form of torture that is illegal in all countries, by the UN, and was only reintroduced as part of the FISA law.
Tigers are done aren’t they?
I guess they could, but has a team ever come back from a 2-9 start to even make the playoffs?
ha, FOX playing vampire weekend there for about 10 secs
Action Jackson has 3 hits today and is becoming a best running pest
Looking forward to the game!
Per Fox, Jeter took BP and grounders today. Progress.
Bob, there are 151 games to play. The Tigers are 4.5 games behind. The Phillies started 3-10 last year. They made up 7 games in the last 17. Granted, the Tigers look bad right now, but nobody is done in April.
“Per Fox, Jeter took BP and grounders today. Progress.”
did he range to his left
I’m scare of Beckett.
“I’m scare of Beckett.”
he’s going to pitch a perfect game
how about that “Game Over” closes the game at Shea
“did he range to his left”
Ever?
Joe have that BP on speed dial
so is santana 0-2 as a met?
Our ACE
3-0 1.23 ERA 12H 11SO 1HR
Mets ACE
1-2 3.05 ERA 16H 18SO 4HR
BTW I just made kick butt black and white cookies!!
Bob,
No team has started 0-7 and made the playoffs.
The Tigers don’t really have the pieces to trade for bullpen or rotation help. It would seem unlikely to me that a team that relies as much on offense would be able to hold up and come back from such a bad start but its certainly possible (and as Wouter said “its April”). It will be tough for them to keep up with a much more well-balanced team like Cleveland.
Hopefully Derek can be back by Monday.
1-7
Mike Eff - 1-2. He defeated Fla. in his first start.
A-Rod = Best frosted tips in baseball? LOL, nice job Joba.
Any bets on who hits a homerun off Mussina first..Ortiz or Manny? I say Manny in his 2nd at bat.
Joba: “of the 27 Molina’s our’s is Jose ”
“Alex I have the best frosted tips in basball Rodriguez”
oh that’s right, thanks fran and jenn!
The Yankees can hit Beckett. Can Boston hit Mussina? Yes. This could be an 8-7 game.
That’s interesting about Hughes and Buchholz. Why not just trade them straight up?
Rebecca is there today I think. Wonder how the Boston crowd deals with the Optimism?
i hate it when they swing through that high FB
Brandon – Joba was amazing! “The man who graduated from Stanford…Mike Mussina”
Santana has given up 4 bombs in 3 games. Wasnt that one of the fears some had in optaining him?
I’m in southern cali and yet I’m able to watch the game both on Fox and mlb.tv. I was also able to watch last saturday afternoon’s game on mlb.tv also. I couldn’t do that in 2006 & 2007. Did mlb and Fox reached a new agreement where saturday afternoon games are no longer blacked out on mlb.tv?
I always find it funny when they say “David Ortiz, the DH”. As if anybody would think he’s playing center field today. Or even owns a glove. Or would want to interrupt the consuming of pork chops in order to catch a baseball.
my god … Muss is not going to make it past the 3rd inning today
“i hate it when they swing through that high FB”
The way the shadows are falling just past the mound is going to be brutal for the yankee hitters against a power pitcher like Beckett.
They are just not going to be able to pick up the ball effectively.
Mussina is going to have to keep this game close until the sun moves.
Mussina really needed that one
Nice by Mussina.
Luck turning his way.
CB: you’re absolutely right, thanks—–moose gets DP!
Nice! One more out…
Ortiz is really struggling and is laboring this year. They actually booed him going back to the dugout.
I’m sick of seeing Froncona and Big Poopi spitting! Stop it Fox.
I guess thats why hes won gold gloves for years. Wouldnt it have been easier to throw to third to first?
Fox gun off?
FB at 84 Slider at 86? Does that make sense?
Hey Joe: Ortiz didn’t bat in the ninth inning last night.
“They actually booed him going back to the dugout.”
The Fenway Faithful for ya…..
Global
Next we’ll see someone clipping his toe nails in the dugout.
Nice inning by Mussina.
Did we really just see that half an inning? Did it really happen?
“The Fenway Faithful for ya…”
Right, because the Yankee fans never get moody when an all-star is going through a slump.
SoS: did someone say it was your birthday? if so, have a happy one…
moose escapes!
Moose pitched him inside I mean a good inside jam pitch
Nice popup by Manny & nice popup of Alex’s gum onto the hallowed grass of Fenway.
I wonder if that surgery Ortiz had on his knee is the reason for his current struggles
Its why I hate 4 pm games at Fenway. The shadows are brutal. Big advantage to the power pitcher.
Although Big Papi didn’t see the 3-1 pitch that well when he hit into the DP.
I just walked in the door in time to see Mussina work out of trouble. Hooray!!!! Very happy for him.
But MLB doesn’t care about it. It is all about the ole’ mighty dollar.
I’m thinking the rumors about Papi in D.R. is true
Thanks MikeEff,
Trying to get my Yankee fix before we go out. Much appreciated.
Brandon what rumors?
I’m scare of Beckett. Perfect game still intact after 2.
“Brandon what rumors?”
he uses steroids
No. Big Papi is just like every other mortal that plays the game. He’s going through a tough slump.
Its happened to Jeter, Arod, Manny for the first 3 months of last year, and everybody else who has ever hit in the majors.
Its just magnified now because every game is on TV or radio.
He’ll snap out of it. He’s too good not to snap out of it.
Just like Robinson Cano isn’t going to hit .170 this season.
Its a long, long season and good hitters always end up hitting.
So Jose Reyes is out with a tight hamstring. Not sure if it is the same hamstring that he had a couple years age.
I like how mets fans insisted that he was better than DJ after on good year. Give it another year and theyll probably be looking to trade him.
SJ,
Maybe the shadows will help Mussina go deep into this game. Ill take our bullpen this year over theirs.
EWWW on the radio they are talking about the hawk. He is there now, flew over them with a rat in his talons. Spoke of how the other day he dropped a mouse on a fan.
Our guys!
oh Robi …ohhh
Nice Robbie. That could have been bad.
You see Cano make plays like that… there just are not many second basemen in the game who can make that pick. What a talent.
canowned
Okay now let’s see if the superstition has something behind it.
Josh Beckett is pitching a perfect game.